00:00:27 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:07:27 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-139-21-129.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:07:35 pr [~pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 00:08:51 steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-oplpppqbhnbaiyum] has joined #lisp 00:09:10 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 00:09:18 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:11:27 -!- PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.237.7.137] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:13:33 kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-111-36.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 00:13:44 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-68-174-154-238.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:13:58 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-ghuuqziohqjozmnx] has joined #lisp 00:14:21 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.142.166.35] has joined #lisp 00:15:44 Bacteria [~Bacteria@dyn-130-194-155-39.its.monash.edu.au] has joined #lisp 00:17:06 -!- steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-oplpppqbhnbaiyum] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 00:19:43 qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 00:23:57 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.255.250] has joined #lisp 00:24:02 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:25:01 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:28:05 Hum, CLISP SIGSEGV after evoking (qt-conv:main) from (ql:quickload "qt-tutorial"). 00:29:14 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:29:21 And (qt-tutorial-14:main) throws some errors. That's strange. 00:31:37 -!- arunganesan is now known as BluePokemon 00:31:49 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-125-214.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:31:54 But that does not occur with SBCL. 00:32:16 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 00:33:17 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 00:35:28 Are you using a thread-enabled clisp? I think qt uses threads. 00:35:54 Uh, I don't even know that existed. 00:36:16 I'm using stock Debian's CLISP. 00:37:18 pjb: Is there a way to know? 00:37:28 didi: i think it should be in *features* 00:37:33 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:37:35 madnificent: Thanks. 00:38:13 No mentioning of :THREADS or anything like that. 00:38:21 :^( 00:38:39 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.14.79] has joined #lisp 00:40:12 So you need to recompile with with threads. 00:40:18 ^clisp 00:41:10 That's a bummer. 00:41:18 -!- jdz [~jdz@91.105.18.48] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:41:57 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.255.250] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 00:43:50 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 00:44:20 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 00:44:32 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:45:35 (and potentially not use clisp) 00:47:43 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 00:48:42 CLISP threads are scary: `--with-threads=FLAVOR support multiple threads in one CLISP image via OS threads [highly experimental - use at your own risk]' 00:50:04 Yes, free software is scary like that. 00:52:14 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:52:45 lol 00:53:13 -!- SegFaultAX|work2 [~mkbernard@ip-64-6-165-25.iad.megapath.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:54:40 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:29 *madnificent* doubts 'free' is a distinguishing factor for that 00:56:54 software is scary like that. 00:57:05 free is just more honest about it 00:57:13 $commercial software is usually accompanied by $marketing, which means something like: buy clisp, and you'll get hot chicks on a caribean beach! 00:58:01 No mention of STD or threads. 00:58:44 -!- VieiraN [~VieiraN@200-171-134-72.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:58:53 -!- Guest51780 [~user@xdsl-78-35-128-150.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:59:11 pjb: which makes me wonder where beach hangs out these days 01:00:12 No idea. I imagine he made a faux-pas in Vietnam and he's languishing in some Vietnamese measles. 01:00:36 VieiraN [~VieiraN@200-171-134-72.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 01:01:57 _travis_ [~travis@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:03 -!- sabalaba [~Adium@adsl-76-194-112-186.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:03:24 <_travis_> xach: i don't know if this is intended or not, but i used quickproject to make a project, and it errored because the depends-on wasn't a list. but it still created the readme.txt so when i fixed the error and reran it it still wouldn't work. obviously it was an easy fix to delete the readme, but not sure if thats an intended effect. 01:03:31 Or he probably just retired, since his web page from Bordeaux disappeared. 01:03:54 _travis_: probably should sanity check before doing stuff to the filesystem. 01:04:45 <_travis_> i'm confused :( 01:05:34 _travis_: quickproject could be improved so it doesn't have the issue you ran into 01:05:49 <_travis_> oh gotcha 01:06:10 <_travis_> i misunderstood what you said. either way, it's a very helpful tool :) 01:06:26 (1+ _travis_) 01:07:35 -!- brudgers [~opera@68-119-80-136.dhcp.mtgm.al.charter.com] has left #lisp 01:09:01 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.14.79] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 01:11:18 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: dobranoc] 01:14:41 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 01:14:58 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-118-10.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 01:19:09 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:21:23 -!- axion1 [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:23:38 -!- permagreen [~donovan@204-195-27-175.wavecable.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:25:40 Oh well, I recompiled it but it still doesn't show up at *features* and CLISP still SIGSEGV with CommonQt's tutorial from Quicklisp. Nah, I don't want to play this game right now. 01:28:37 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:31:19 PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 01:31:43 -!- PuercoPop is now known as Guest62257 01:36:04 permagreen [~donovan@204-195-27-175.wavecable.com] has joined #lisp 01:36:15 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-ghuuqziohqjozmnx] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:37:04 didi: if it's the same for you, perhaps sbcl or ccl can make life easier on you on the short run 01:39:08 guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-unnvpgedhjdlpqtv] has joined #lisp 01:39:59 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-gxyvfdznoeaeuubh] has joined #lisp 01:40:17 agumonkey [~agu@201.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:18 madnificent: Actually, it is. I was using SBCL before. Just trying things out. I'm cheering for the inclusion of CCL in Debian. I guess I will get back to SBCL. 01:51:25 for what it's worth: CLISP has its place, but for most things SBCL makes things easy. CCL is quite good too, but i'm less accustomed to it. 01:52:09 madnificent: I ended up completing the program. I've had it produce output for one of the human chromosomes, we're now correlating it with our expiermental mass spec data. 01:52:19 I'll let you know soon enough if we find anything new. 01:53:56 -!- VieiraN [~VieiraN@200-171-134-72.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:55:30 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:56:59 steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has joined #lisp 01:57:57 centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-162-53-13.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:15 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has quit [Client Quit] 02:01:23 sepuku [~spk@dsl-aav0mz.dyn.edudsl.gr] has joined #lisp 02:03:38 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:05:04 steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has joined #lisp 02:06:07 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-68-174-154-238.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:10:27 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:11:13 -!- [SLB] is now known 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[~user@c-50-136-242-14.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:29:18 bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 07:36:02 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@dyn-130-194-155-39.its.monash.edu.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 07:36:24 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 07:38:57 ehu [~ehuels@109.33.110.212] has joined #lisp 07:40:08 setmeaway [stemearay@119.201.52.168] has joined #lisp 07:44:31 pspace [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has joined #lisp 07:44:48 trebor_dki [~user@kvpn.lbf.fraunhofer.de] has joined #lisp 07:45:53 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:46:30 BountyX [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has joined #lisp 07:47:48 -!- bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:49:42 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.108.77] has joined #lisp 07:50:12 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-37-203.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:51:02 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-8.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:52:09 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-8.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:53:08 -!- sabalaba [~Adium@108-252-136-195.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:53:27 -!- leo2007 [~leo@124.248.202.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:53:58 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 07:54:23 agumonkey [~agu@201.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 07:59:08 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 07:59:40 why was xlisp so popular? 08:01:17 it was portable and came with a lot of mathematical stuff builtin, before R etc were available 08:01:37 well, that was xlisp-stat. 08:01:54 what i don't understand, was why it wasn't cl-stat 08:02:01 autolisp is also based on xlisp. 08:02:07 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 08:06:02 if clisp had been out earlier, I might have been cl-stat 08:06:32 there weren't many free, portable, fully featureds lisps around at that time 08:07:54 hmm. 08:08:39 I think the main reason was that XLISP was tho only lisp at that time that was capable to run on small computers, i.e. MS-DOS machines with 640kB RAM 08:10:39 makes sense. 08:13:15 Guest62257 [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 08:15:52 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-118-10.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 08:19:02 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:19:56 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 08:20:54 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:22:40 -!- cfy_ is now known as cfy 08:26:41 punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 08:28:17 -!- Guest62257 is now known as PuercoPop 08:28:43 liutos [~user@2001:da8:2004:2109:f24d:a2ff:fe41:5cf4] has joined #lisp 08:30:28 should I write lisp or Lisp ? 08:32:12 lithp 08:32:18 heh 08:32:33 matters not, really. 08:32:40 I am not sure about the capital in front 08:32:41 Lisp is a name, and as such it should be capitalised 08:32:55 who are you writing it for, ivan-kanis? 08:33:05 vms or unix? 08:33:07 as long as its not LISP, its ok by me. 08:33:10 just doing a blog on it 08:33:27 aha! On Lisp? 08:33:31 what do you have to say? 08:33:46 why it's relevant to me 08:34:07 why is lisp relevant to you? 08:34:12 hope it does not contain misinformation, we would hate to destroy it rhetorically. 08:34:29 bjorkintosh: well look at my blog 08:35:10 So, knowing all the issues about macroexpansion, etc., is there any capability in slime to add breakpoints without modifying the source? 08:35:28 ivan-kanis, where is said blog? 08:35:43 bjorkintosh: you've heard of Google? 08:35:44 ferada [~ferada@dslb-088-069-118-122.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:36:12 ivan-kanis: the burden to provide a link is on you. 08:36:15 given that its yours, i thought you would have proudly spammed it. 08:36:28 http://ivan.kanis.fr/blog.html 08:36:56 bjorkintosh: I am not Xah Lee 08:38:09 i see a lot about emacs. i suppose the one you spoke of if a work in progress. 08:38:16 yes 08:38:22 writig it right now 08:38:31 is it about elisp or common lisp? 08:38:40 well I like to do both 08:38:55 it's not easy 08:39:18 -!- copec [~copec@64.244.102.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:39:47 copec [~copec@64.244.102.140] has joined #lisp 08:40:28 -!- liutos [~user@2001:da8:2004:2109:f24d:a2ff:fe41:5cf4] has left #lisp 08:40:44 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:41:15 ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 08:42:40 teggi [~teggi@113.172.54.215] has joined #lisp 08:51:27 -!- pspace [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:56:11 bitonic [~user@li146-81.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 08:57:59 linkb3321 [~linkb3321@183.6.80.32] has joined #lisp 08:59:13 anvandare [~anvandare@ip-83-134-157-138.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #lisp 09:02:48 magnificrab [~duranain@202.168.106.176.dynamic.rev.eftel.com] has joined #lisp 09:05:55 -!- linkb3321 [~linkb3321@183.6.80.32] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:06:46 pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 09:07:10 -!- PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:16:23 -!- magnificrab [~duranain@202.168.106.176.dynamic.rev.eftel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:17:47 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 09:18:12 magnificrab [~duranain@202.168.106.176.dynamic.rev.eftel.com] has joined #lisp 09:19:32 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 09:22:19 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-gxyvfdznoeaeuubh] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:25:23 "can you program in java?" "sure, but you pay the travel expenses" 09:28:57 yakov [~yakov@79-142-91-68.obit.ru] has joined #lisp 09:33:50 haha 09:37:06 add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-56-56.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 09:42:10 DDDP [~DaDaDOSPr@71-222-65-185.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 09:43:18 -!- DaDaDOSPrompt [~DaDaDOSPr@67-5-174-57.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:44:00 -!- lcc [~lcc-pi@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:44:26 http://ivan.kanis.fr/lisp.txt 09:44:30 feedback welcome 09:44:31 lcc [~lcc-pi@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 09:47:24 "Of course it's not as fast as C but it's decent nonetheless." -> audience stops reading here, or considering you have something interesting for them, IMO, plus, it seems like it's not true what you're saying 09:47:32 alama [~textual@stgt-4d0252ed.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:47:35 ivan-kanis: very... spartan. 09:47:58 and I don't think FFI is about getting C speed, it's all about reusing C code and libs so that you don't have to rewrite them 09:48:21 i hear they're working on something called html that can make personal pages so much prettier :> 09:48:32 Also ecl compiles to C, so its C speed :) 09:48:44 aside from that, it's a nice summary of a few of the strength points of lisp 09:49:17 If you talk to someone who is not a lisp head, don't even mention the speed word. That's all they will remember. At least that's my experience. 09:49:46 then just tell them that in some cases lisp is faster than C 09:50:14 anvandare: I recently attempted to explain the benefits of Lisp, too: 09:50:15 https://plus.google.com/115209488640908180409/posts/h6B8xU5yT4v 09:50:24 look the perfs table at http://norvig.com/python-lisp.html ivan-kanis 09:50:25 lisp is much much faster than any language... if you incalculate development time! 09:50:41 pavelpenev: my strength is not writing... 09:51:06 actually a better approach is to say that while C makes it easy to write wrong and fast code, and takes an expert to make it correct, lisp makes it easy to write correct code, and takes a bit of experience to make it fast. 09:51:14 lisp exception handling appears to be 100 times faster than C++ one in that document 09:51:31 -!- bitonic [~user@li146-81.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:51:36 Cymew: well a strong misconception is that it's slow so I think it's important to mention 09:52:11 python is slow and ruby is *really* slow but fanboys don't mention that. They speak about the strengths. I think lispers should do the same. 09:52:31 Answer the speed issue when someone explicitly asks about it 09:52:58 People always remember the bad stuff, so talk about the good bits. 09:53:01 Cymew: hmm, ok, I'll cut 09:53:18 At least that's my opinion 09:53:23 "are you building an OS or handling multiple terabytes of data? if not then speed shouldn't be your main issue" 09:53:40 ivan-kanis: check out my "lisp misconceptions" blog post: http://pavelpenev.posterous.com/learning-lisp-the-bump-free-way from my inexperienced, but insanely enthusiastic period. 09:54:31 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-56-56.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 09:54:36 bitonic [~user@li146-81.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 09:54:53 *pavelpenev* should probably return to blogging, now that most of the empty enthusiasm is replaced with bittersweet experience. 09:54:59 Many voices singing the praises of the good parts is why "everyone" knows about python. Also, it's quite to get going and hack away. It even has a repl, like some other languages we could mention... :) 09:55:06 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:55:11 quite easy, that is. 09:55:21 Cymew: ok it's cut 09:55:41 Sorry if I harp on about this. Pet peeve. Sorry. ;) 09:55:43 you can refresh to see the update 09:56:00 Cymew: I don't feel you're harping, you're helping me make it better 09:56:02 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 09:56:10 Cymew: I actually like the fact that the lisp community is less marketing focused. It's insanely refreshing to those of us who value intellectual honesty. 09:56:35 that said, the doom and gloom mentality is worse even worse 09:57:02 rm the first worse 09:58:56 what does it mean for a community to be marketing focused? 09:59:00 ivan-kanis: A bit of advice from another bad writer who wants to be better: write, stop, in 30 mins reread it, if it sounds like crap, scrap it and rewrite it. Takes weeks to publish anything and it still sucks, but its better. 09:59:29 people in any somewhat large community will have wildly diverging interests 10:00:08 -!- lcc [~lcc-pi@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:00:33 pavelpenev: I kind of agree, but there's moderation in all things. 10:01:07 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-088-069-118-122.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 10:01:14 ferada [~ferada@dslb-088-069-118-122.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:01:29 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.1] 10:02:41 punee: have you read many ruby or python blogs from say 2008, or some recent node.js blogs? Or the clojure blogs, written from the clojurians who came to it from java? 10:03:04 pavelpenev: nah, it will never be good. I just got in the habit of blogging once a week. 10:03:18 not really 10:04:03 I used to really like Python but then the interest wore off 10:04:14 I think Python3 is a disaster 10:04:29 An then the Unicode handling... yuck... 10:04:33 punee: it seemed in 2008 that every second blog post about python was about closures or list comprehentions, or how you don't need to write type declarations as proof that the language was the best thing EVA! 10:05:05 I know, because I wrote half of them in bulgarian :) 10:05:11 these must have been pretty boring posts 10:05:17 but i still don't understand how that's marketing related 10:05:51 ivan-kanis: I think you could talk even more about the development environement, the dynamics of writing code (with SLIME for example) 10:06:06 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 10:06:07 when I'm back to writing C the lack of C-M-x is really really bad 10:06:34 of course languages that are used more in the workplace are going to have more discussions about concrete/product oriented stuff, while languages for hobbyists/academics will have more theoretical discussions 10:06:35 punee: well, the comunity feels as their duty to promote tha language in every situation posible, and over exadurate its merit. I see this with lisp too, but the ratio of lisp programmers over 30 is sufficient to make it less of an issue. 10:06:46 dim: well, the thing is I don't do CL... 10:07:00 oh right, so you mean marketing the language itself 10:07:10 i don't feel like that's very true of python anymore 10:07:13 dim: it shows in my article 10:07:26 ivan-kanis: so the document should explicitely mention elisp then, I think 10:07:56 dim: well I think highly of CL, I just don't program much anymore... 10:07:58 punee: If you misunderstood me to mean that marketing people use those languages, and its my fault, I apologize, and yes, python is somewhat more mature, all the kids moved to JS. 10:08:49 I actually regard python to be the most mature of all the "kool kids" languages 10:09:03 dim: re-reading the article I don't think it should be elisp only 10:09:21 mention that's the experience you're building the article on then 10:09:25 dim: my goal is to demonstrate why I like Lisp 10:09:34 dim: ok 10:09:57 dim: like on top as an introduction? 10:10:09 I think so 10:10:58 dim: "Most of my experience whith Lisp is Emacs Lisp but this article talks 10:10:58 about Common Lisp too." 10:11:16 so, "with"? 10:11:18 :) 10:11:22 or "most of it applies also to CL"? 10:12:41 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 10:13:32 "I am mostly experienced with Emacs Lisp but this article applies to Common Lisp." 10:14:06 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 10:14:36 ivan-kanis: i find that just careing about good writing improves it. The attitude of "I'm not good at writing" is like a self fulfiling prophesy. I suggest you scrap the whole thing, rethink it why it is written, what you want to say and write it again. It will certainly be better. Right now it feels like a very rough first draft. 10:15:09 The thrust of the text is good, but pavelpenev's advice is good. 10:15:13 it's a good draft, tho, ideas are clear 10:15:19 indeed 10:15:21 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-8.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:15:28 ivan-kanis: There isn't a function called doloop, and if there were, it wouldn't be a function. 10:15:31 try to find a story to tell in the first § it always work fine 10:15:32 yes, it is clear. 10:15:41 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-8.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:15:47 moore33: hmm shall I call it a macro then? 10:16:05 *Cymew* suddenly remembers that he has forgotten to eat lunch... 10:16:06 moore33: i didn't want to make too confusing, I know it's a macro 10:16:32 calling a macro a function is more confusing. 10:16:50 dim: ah the catch line, hey? 10:16:53 ivan-kanis: You could say "a construct," but in any event figure out which looping construct you mean: do, dotimes, loop... 10:17:11 operator would be a better generic term than construct. 10:17:26 ivan-kanis: you almost have it, with the (hello) example, it's just not written as a catch story 10:17:35 pavelpenev, Cymew : ok I'll take the advice about writing and not publish it straight away 10:18:10 read any Joël on software article to see some articulated example you can get inspiration from 10:18:42 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-124-178.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 10:18:42 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@musicbrainz/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 10:19:12 just don't overdo it, the reason my blog hasn't been updated since last year is because I start writing, rewrite a post 3-4 times, and get bored with the subject by the end of the week and never publish. 10:19:27 moore33: ok, I rewrote it, refresh 10:19:44 dim: Joël who ? 10:19:59 joel spolsky, google :) 10:20:45 Paul Graham has a few things about writing as well. 10:20:54 ah yes I remember him now 10:21:00 ivan-kanis: Ça s'écrit "constructs". 10:21:27 moore33: merci ;) 10:21:51 ivan-kanis: My wife is a prof d'anglais :) 10:21:55 dim: great idea, let me think about it 10:22:17 Doxin [~Doxin@Powder/Dragon/Doxin] has joined #lisp 10:22:35 *pavelpenev* finds writing extremely rewarding, even If he rarely publishes anything. 10:22:51 and sucks at it :) 10:23:02 I find writing code rewarding, never been much into prose 10:23:05 *anvandare* does that too 10:23:07 -!- bitonic [~user@li146-81.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:23:21 -!- brendyn [brendyn@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:65b4] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:23:24 pages and pages of nonsensical babbling (ok, maybe a bit better than that, but deemed such afterwards) discarded, time and again 10:23:28 -!- limetree [~ircuser@li147-249.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:23:59 thats what *scratch* was made for :) 10:24:02 I've just read http://www.defmacro.org/ramblings/lisp.html , but I fail to see what makes lisp unique. or at least different enough to warrant all those parentheses? 10:24:16 -!- yakov [~yakov@79-142-91-68.obit.ru] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 10:24:19 -!- rfgpfeiffer [~bob@blubberquark.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:24:19 -!- Zol [~Zolomon@li152-84.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:24:20 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:24:29 the parentheses are to lisp what whitespace is to python :P 10:24:33 yakov [~yakov@79-142-91-68.obit.ru] has joined #lisp 10:24:59 anvandare: except that whitespace makes it _more_ readable. I'm just interested in why lisp is "better" 10:25:00 just read the first chapter of PCL, and preferably more 10:25:05 Doxin: http://s3.amazonaws.com/files.posterous.com/pavelpenev/qygrBgrsqzmwDklbGcpnmnkEHuIEuEGuGeiFtJzprwFJfcdkjlpnpllxCplh/media_httpimg264image_rAqCe.png?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJFZAE65UYRT34AOQ&Expires=1345804190&Signature=OF1f74BnQ8WApoT9cpg2RYWU7Ic%3D 10:25:09 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:25:16 -!- ineiros [~itniemin@li271-145.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:25:37 ineiros [~itniemin@li271-145.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 10:25:40 limetree [~ircuser@li147-249.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 10:25:45 pavelpenev: well, at first. yes. but I also understand the why behind them somewhat. 10:25:55 rfgpfeiffer [~bob@blubberquark.de] has joined #lisp 10:25:55 I don't think there's a universal standard which makes language A better than language B... 10:25:56 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 10:26:01 Doxin: Lisp isn't better, better is never divorced from the programmers using it. 10:26:08 ... 10:26:10 Doxin: I think Steve Yegge has a good article on why the parens are better. Let me look... 10:26:11 right 10:26:31 "it just feels better" probably doesn't sound as convincing an argument. :P 10:26:33 Zol [~Zolomon@li152-84.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 10:26:35 let me put it this way, why did you guys learn lisp? at all? from what i've seen it's not all that much special 10:26:47 anvandare: i'd like to know why it feels better to you :P 10:26:47 because i read the first chapter of PCL. thats why for me 10:26:50 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 10:27:00 Doxin: I learned Lisp because Paul Graham and Erik Raymond told me to. 10:27:05 right 10:27:14 but thats not why i stick with it. 10:27:20 bitonic [~user@li146-81.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 10:27:23 why did you stick then? 10:27:57 lisp fits the way I think about software better than anything else I've used including python, C, scheme and clojure 10:28:08 hm 10:28:34 Hmm, I think I'm confusing it with something else. 10:28:39 pavelpenev: could that possibly be because lisp changed how you think? 10:29:06 Doxin: Certainly. 10:29:21 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 10:29:28 _travis_ [~travis@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:29:46 We sort of grow towards each other. 10:29:51 maxm [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has joined #lisp 10:29:56 Doxin: Whether or not you like the parens (and I do), they enforce a regular syntax that makes the parsing of Lisp trivial. From that comes useful macros. 10:30:26 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:30:31 <_travis_> macros still throw me for a loop :\ 10:30:34 To me, Lisp is closer to the algorithm, while C is closer to the machine. And I admit I have a very machine-like approach to programming. Perhaps this is due to having learnt C first. 10:30:48 -!- rfgpfeiffer [~bob@blubberquark.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:30:58 linux admin lesson of the day: don't do "ip rule flush". Had to reconstruct default routing table by hand 10:31:13 no backups? 10:31:17 -!- bitonic [~user@li146-81.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:31:28 freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has joined #lisp 10:31:39 no, its transient, but I did not want to reboot or kill apps 10:31:47 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 10:32:06 <_travis_> maxm, i can appreciate that 10:32:12 bitonic [~user@li146-81.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 10:32:17 rfgpfeiffer [~bob@blubberquark.de] has joined #lisp 10:32:28 just surprised that "rcnetwork restart" does not fix it 10:32:33 anyway sorry for offtopic 10:34:05 moore33: hmm 10:34:16 moore33: I find lisp to be over-generalised really 10:34:32 moore33: it's like the difference between python and lua, but 10 times worse. 10:34:56 Doxin: I'm having trouble parsing "overgeneralized" without an example... 10:35:28 moore33: eh, it's not something concrete really 10:35:30 -!- yakov [~yakov@79-142-91-68.obit.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:35:34 that over-generalization pays off when you flying by the seat of your pants coding wise 10:35:53 moore33: it has less special cases, which is a bad thing if it happens too much 10:36:11 Doxin: special cases are good idea in your world? 10:36:13 Doxin: That is a unique viewpoint :) 10:36:15 maxm: I don't feel like it adds anything I don't have in python 10:36:18 pavelpenev: not always 10:36:25 just when they make life easier 10:36:28 it's like.. 10:36:29 eh 10:36:47 write a python parser 10:36:51 heh 10:36:53 no. 10:36:57 no need 10:37:08 what if you want to parse python? 10:37:09 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:37:14 i rest my point 10:37:16 a list like this: (("a",3),("b",4)) is a less specialised form of a dict like this {"a":3,"b":4}, and yet the second one is easier to use. 10:37:21 Doxin: I can think of examples: no operator precedence, for example. But I like Hewlett-Packard calculators too. 10:37:32 axion: there's no need to do that really 10:37:42 Python model of everything is a dict/hash is attractive, but has large performance penalties 10:37:44 axion: python has some very neat builtin modules to do that :P 10:37:51 maxm: not saying that 10:37:58 maxm: that's not true in python either 10:38:09 maxm: but at least you can choose between a dict and a list 10:38:16 brendyn [brendyn@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:65b4] has joined #lisp 10:38:19 which afaic lisp doesn't have. 10:38:23 Doxin: lisp has hash tables 10:38:25 like eve online developers found out.. 100 objects each with 10 attributes -> one tick runs in a second.. make it 1000 objects, and it dies horribly 10:38:29 pavelpenev: how? 10:38:42 with no way to fix it, coz its dicts on top of dicts on top of dicts everywhere 10:38:44 Doxin: That list *is* a special case in Common Lisp: there is a family of functions to do lookups, reverse lookups, etc. 10:38:53 maxm: they've got a horrible implementation then 10:38:56 doxin: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_has.htm 10:38:56 Doxin: (make-hash-table) 10:39:02 moore33: right, but still a list 10:39:09 Doxin: So? 10:39:09 Doxin: you obviously don't know lisp, so you are probably trolling. 10:39:13 no no 10:39:21 I'm seriously trying to find out stuff here 10:39:43 Doxin: have you read any of PCL yet? 10:40:23 -!- limetree [~ircuser@li147-249.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:40:28 loke: I really dislike the syntax there. 10:40:32 axion: not yet, no. 10:40:38 Doxin: I don't think that all data structures should be lists all the time, by any means, but they are perfectly appropriate for a small dictionary. 10:40:45 please see Peter's introduction. I was VERY skeptical about lisp, being talked about by my friends, until I finally read it. 10:40:46 limetree [~ircuser@li147-249.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 10:40:52 hmm 10:40:52 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:41:16 axion: reading it now 10:41:17 Doxin: you can see that as the foundation 10:41:31 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:41:39 -!- rfgpfeiffer [~bob@blubberquark.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:42:02 loke_erc: but this is where a special case can be nice. dict[key] is nice syntax to me. I like it better than (dict-lookup "key" dict) 10:42:10 Doxin: hashtables are only faster once you go above a certain number of elements (how many that is, depends). most list-based lookup lists are very small in lisp, just a handful of elements, which are if not after at least as fast as a hash table 10:42:31 Doxin: even if you're not doing it intentionally, you're trolling. 10:42:31 -!- brendyn [brendyn@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:65b4] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:42:35 loke_erc: I know, I just dislike the syntax there 10:42:36 Doxin: Well, it's a good thing that Lisp allows you to create a syntax for that then, if you want to :-) 10:42:41 pavelpenev: then explain how not to? 10:42:55 Doxin: repeating your sentiment does not make it any better 10:43:01 loke_erc: hmm 10:43:08 H4ns: am I implying it does? 10:43:08 Doxin: building a reader macro that allows you to type, say, @foo["bar"] is trivial 10:43:14 hm 10:43:26 loke_erc: Also completely horrible :) 10:43:31 loke_erc: how much of a bad practice is it to rewrite python in lisp though? 10:43:39 Doxin: if you dislike the syntax so much that you feel like stating it again and again, you should find something else that pleases you more. 10:43:40 moore33: I agree, which is my most lisp programmers don't do that :-) 10:44:04 Doxin: you're the one saying you prefer that syntax. We don't. 10:44:15 H4ns: I have, I'm just trying to figure out why I hear so many people go orgasmic about lisp. 10:44:27 Doxin: you know nothing of lisp, yet have strong opinions about it. Learn it, and we will help you with the process as best we can, just tone the opinions down until you acquire a clue. 10:44:35 Even if the language is infinitely configurable, it is very unproductive to go into it ignoring its existing culture. 10:44:51 pavelpenev: hm. 10:46:20 Doxin: I dislike python, but I know it fairly well, even though I'm a bit rusty. And I very rarely go to python forums or channels to share my dislike, in fact, I never do that. 10:46:47 pavelpenev: Perhaps you should 10:47:03 :-) 10:48:12 *pavelpenev* goes off to troll #python... not :) 10:48:20 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 10:48:50 <_travis_> i can't help but feel like this conversation is an every day occurence 10:49:56 Doxin: If you wanted, you could define a generic function [] that does your key lookup on a hashtable, alist, sequence... you could even define the generic setter too. But you would write it ([] table key), because that is just what we do in Lisp. 10:50:12 I don't try to write C++ in prefix notation. 10:50:33 lcc [~lcc-pi@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 10:52:03 Even I am a bit put off by the hairyness of this form: (setf (gadget-value pane :invoke-callback t) item-value) 10:52:26 I.e., setf functions that take extra arguments. 10:52:59 If I write a different language, it shall be named Nair. 10:53:26 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:54:05 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:54:06 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 10:54:26 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 10:55:32 -!- Tordek is now known as Yes 10:55:42 -!- Yes is now known as Tordek 10:56:36 brendyn [brendyn@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:65b4] has joined #lisp 10:57:03 -!- springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:58:54 -!- brendyn [brendyn@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:65b4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:00:03 rfgpfeiffer [~bob@blubberquark.de] has joined #lisp 11:04:58 brendyn [brendyn@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:65b4] has joined #lisp 11:05:14 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 11:06:53 FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 11:06:54 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:08:57 I bet I can implement lisp in python as a dsl 11:11:07 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 11:11:52 Doxin: not that difficult, parsing lisp is trivial compared to parsing python. 11:12:07 that's true 11:12:18 What is "lisp?" 11:12:47 baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more 11:12:58 <_travis_> maybe someone can explain this to me. in PCL, the id3v2 parser pratical, he constantly checks the caracter code in this way: (<=0 code #xffff) now, #xffff is a constant right? what purpose does it server to continually check that it is indeed greater than 0? 11:13:19 <_travis_> i'm sorry, (<= 0 code #xffff) 11:13:41 _travis_: it's not checking that #xffff is greater than 0, it's checking that the value of CODE is less than that value and greater than 0 11:13:47 <= checks that the arguments are a progression. 11:13:50 <_travis_> oh 11:13:58 <_travis_> good lord 11:14:02 <_travis_> i need more coffee obvoiusly 11:14:03 lol 11:14:03 or that they are nondecreasing 11:14:05 <_travis_> thank you for the slap. 11:14:11 actually that's a very rare feature 11:14:35 Doxin: check out http://common-lisp.net/project/clpython/ 11:14:39 <_travis_> when i did some trivial tests at the REPL i completely misunderstood the results 11:14:48 In most languages, you'd have to do if (0 <= code && code <= #xffff) blah 11:15:00 <_travis_> right, makes complete sense now. 11:15:09 or some other structure in which you'd constantly have to restate the control value again and again 11:15:27 pavelpenev: I'm not talking about implementing lisp. I'm talking about writing a python program that extends python to _be_ lisp. 11:16:41 <_travis_> so dumb early lesson that i should have learned in comp sci 101, checking the spec > stupid command line style testing. 11:17:46 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 11:17:57 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:18:50 Doxin: you mean ["defun", "hello world", [], ["print", "Hello world"] ]? 11:19:02 pavelpenev: no, 11:19:19 pavelpenev: I mean import lisp and then start writing lisp intermingled with python. 11:19:57 shouldn't be too hard 11:23:30 -!- zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@101.68.104.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:24:48 uz [~shudaisho@p7902ca22.gunmnt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:26:19 -!- sepuku [~spk@dsl-aav0mz.dyn.edudsl.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:27:35 -!- _travis_ [~travis@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has left #lisp 11:30:13 -!- alama [~textual@stgt-4d0252ed.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 11:31:37 -!- uz [~shudaisho@p7902ca22.gunmnt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: ] 11:31:51 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:34:28 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-140-86.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 11:35:03 FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 11:35:33 yakov [~yakov@spb.nexenta.com] has joined #lisp 11:38:45 Doxin: thanks to cl-python you can do it the other way. i.e. write python within CL. 11:39:37 saschakb [~skbierm@gateway/tor-sasl/saschakb] has joined #lisp 11:40:47 -!- yakov [~yakov@spb.nexenta.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:41:21 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-128-150.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:41:22 daimrod: :I 11:42:03 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 11:42:51 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 11:43:01 since when is it a good idea to drop to a debugger on each and every error? 11:43:28 Doxin: let me see. since... the invention of interactive computing in the 1960ies? 11:43:32 Doxin: the 60's 11:44:55 I can't remember the last time I needed a debugger in python. how about not dropping to a debugger and giving usefull output instead? 11:45:53 Doxin: have you tried reading the error output that appears before the debugger prompt? 11:46:24 yep 11:46:56 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 11:46:57 Doxin: well, then i'm unsure what you're looking for. something like "segmentation fault, core dumped" and a shell prompt? 11:47:02 hah 11:47:03 no 11:47:11 ... but? 11:47:24 H4ns: python tracebacks are rather nice. 11:47:38 Doxin: you keep talking about python. this channel is about lisp. 11:47:43 I know 11:47:47 Doxin: did you look at the backtrace yet? 11:47:55 Doxin: what is missing in it that you'd like to see? 11:47:57 Doxin: Lisp debbugers are nicer 11:48:22 H4ns: maybe it's just because I haven't learned to read it yet 11:48:25 pavelpenev: how so? 11:48:33 Doxin: ah, we're getting closer. 11:48:45 Doxin: are you using slime or a bare repl? 11:48:46 sometimes they give you options to recover from an error 11:49:05 H4ns: bare. 11:49:18 pavelpenev: I have yet to find a scenario where this helps 11:49:32 pavelpenev: ( implementing an error handler like that in python is trivial anyways ) 11:49:43 mskou72 [~mskou72@91.144.254.250] has joined #lisp 11:49:50 -!- saschakb [~skbierm@gateway/tor-sasl/saschakb] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:50:05 you mean you can recover from different point in your stacktrace with new values? 11:50:24 Doxin: you should really use slime, but most repl debuggers can be useful as well. you do need to look in your implementation's documentation for usage notes, though. 11:50:27 Doxin: why are you here? You seem to be hellbent on convincing us that python does things better than CL, but none of us asked you to come. 11:50:42 Doxin: you do not yet know anything but judge that you only need what python provides. 11:50:45 Please, do use python. 11:51:09 pkhuong: just trying to figure out if it's worth learning lisp, not trying to convince you at all 11:51:15 Doxin: i'd recommend that you either stick to python or stop thinking about it while you're learning lisp. i know it is hard, but you could start by not telling _us_ about python. 11:51:45 right 11:52:03 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 11:52:30 Doxin: You aren't doing that. You are obviously confirming your bias that lisp isn't "special". 11:52:36 Doxin: what does "worth" mean to you? what would make learning lisp worthwhile for you? 11:52:55 Doxin: lisp is a worst python than python. 11:54:33 you show great signs of having already made up your mind. IOW You are wasting your time. I said, we will help you if you acquire a clue and stop trolling. Just don't try to judge lisp before you learn enough of it to not sound like a moron. 11:54:52 -!- gekko_ [~jjk@78.157.103.6] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 11:55:08 pavelpenev: I'm trying to find out if it is, and if its worth learning. 11:55:24 H4ns: it's worth learning if it's fundamentally different from any other programming language I know 11:55:43 Anyway, Python is too easy :-) 11:55:50 Doxin: it is not. it just has features that no other language you know has. 11:55:58 minion: thwap fpr me 11:55:58 please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 11:56:06 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.234.45] has joined #lisp 11:57:10 H4ns: such as? 11:57:18 Doxin: you discovered something already: when there is an error, you land in a debugger. 11:57:29 H4ns: not unique to lisp. 11:57:31 Doxin: also macros, clos, mop, generic functions with multiple dispatch, the reader. 11:57:38 Doxin: http://www.paulgraham.com/diff.html 11:58:07 Doxin: lisp is worth learning. Take my word for it. No, don't take my word for it. Learn it, and _THEN_ make up your mind about its value. 11:58:14 daimrod: what an impressive list! garbage collection, wow! 11:58:24 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:58:42 H4ns: did you read the last paragraph? 11:58:45 Doxin: http://random-state.net/features-of-common-lisp.html features of Common Lisp 11:59:04 daimrod: none of that is new to me. 11:59:12 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 11:59:33 daimrod: a list that does not contain anything that makes lisp unique today is not helpful in this discussion. 11:59:34 It is extremely wrong to judge a language before you know it. 12:00:12 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:00:22 a list of features does not make a good rational for learning one. 12:00:48 pavelpenev: the whole conversation is pretty pointless, when it comes to that. 12:01:18 -!- sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:01:52 but wasting time on a stupid language is also bad 12:01:52 like learning perl for example 12:02:15 theos: perl is not stupid. let's please confine our discussion to common lisp. 12:03:08 H4ns all i was saying is that lisp is epic and you wont repent learning it :) 12:03:15 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:03:26 theos: I repent, It ruined all other languages for me. 12:03:29 minion: chant 12:03:30 MORE COFFEE 12:03:36 MOAR 12:03:43 theos: So you didn't say that "like learning perl" line? :) 12:04:11 and i kinda lagged for liek 1 min or so. that would have made things outta context a bit 12:05:25 earning a new language is a tough decision. its good that lisp has good points in favor of it 12:05:31 learning* 12:05:44 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:08:28 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-128-150.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:08:33 learning a new language is not a tough decision. you take a book, read through it, then decide whether you want to learn the language. 12:09:51 *dim* never learnt a language with a book 12:09:54 I learned enough VB.net to pass an exam and wrote a project in an afternoon. And I don't even use windows. 12:10:06 dim: neither did i. 12:10:35 sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #lisp 12:10:41 dim: a book can help making the decision to learn a language. the actual learning process requires writing actual programs in the language. 12:10:47 dim: There was a time before the Internet :) 12:11:37 moore33: I had manpages then 12:11:45 the problem is judgment rigidity. When I make a value judgment about a technology too early, It takes me a lot of effort to remove it if I find evidence to the contrary. That is why i try to judge less. 12:11:54 H4ns: ack 12:11:58 dim:That would be a hard way to learn a language. 12:12:20 paul0 [~paul0@201.86.67.162.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 12:12:45 dim manpages are books no? 12:13:07 not designed to be sold, makes a huge difference 12:13:20 you dont have to buy a book :P 12:14:11 i find it amazing that many books on languages are written by people who do not actually know the language very well. 12:14:28 i get what you are saying. but some books are worth reading 12:14:41 this does not mean that those books are not good. it is just kind of reflective of the fact that reading books and learning languages are two different things. 12:14:52 and a lot of books are copied from other books :D 12:14:57 -!- les [moreorles@fsf/member/les] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:15:26 the only way I've found that works to learn a language is find a small enough project and implement it in said language, then a bigger one etc 12:15:48 Has anyone customized the git chunk headers to give useful output for Lisp? Is that even possible? 12:16:39 AndroUser2 [~androirc@180.109.206.40] has joined #lisp 12:17:11 yakov [~yakov@spb.nexenta.com] has joined #lisp 12:18:07 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 12:18:32 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-179-45-22.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:55 dim: checkout my "story" at the beginning http://ivan.kanis.fr/lisp.txt 12:19:15 ur5us [~ur5us@223.194.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 12:19:19 dim: I learned a lot via books 12:20:10 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-179-45-22.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:20:12 jdz [~jdz@91.105.18.48] has joined #lisp 12:20:36 ivan-kanis: you repeat two sentences with "What is wonderful about Common Lisp is that it doesn't impose.." 12:21:35 ivan-kanis: and while i understand what you say, i would not stress that point too much. it could appear as if lisp code is mostly messy because no common style is followed. i'd stress the multi-paradigm aspect more. 12:21:50 H4ns: nice catch! fixed! 12:22:26 H4ns: the second point is tricky 12:22:37 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:23:40 you could link and inspire from the recent article I read about "idioms" in programming languages, where CL has much less (if any) idioms 12:23:46 trying to find that again 12:24:05 http://learncodethehardway.org/blog/AUG_19_2012.html 12:25:01 H4ns: instead of saying "it doesn't impose a programming style" I could say "it's multi-paragdim" 12:25:32 ivan-kanis: yes. be positive. 12:26:18 *pavelpenev* passes out from 30 hours of abusing caffeine, studying math, barely passing intense differential geometry exam, drinking beer and battling trolls on #lisp 12:26:18 H4ns: done, thanks! 12:27:40 Isn't that article about how they're not idioms? :) 12:28:53 -!- ur5us [~ur5us@223.194.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:30:12 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-170-145.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:33:20 dim: nice article 12:33:21 -!- specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 12:33:25 specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 12:33:58 sellout421 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:34:19 freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has joined #lisp 12:34:46 chr`` [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 12:35:30 Kvaks_ [~quassel@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 12:35:41 -!- Doxin [~Doxin@Powder/Dragon/Doxin] has left #lisp 12:35:47 cola_zero [~cola_zero@www5116ue.sakura.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:36:16 hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 12:36:16 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 12:36:16 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 12:37:15 tkd_ [~tomek@tlahuizcalpantecuhtli.wa.ht] has joined #lisp 12:37:21 xian_ [xian@we-are-the-b.org] has joined #lisp 12:37:22 Patzy_ [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:37:29 cataska_ [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 12:37:37 pkhuong_ [~pkhuong@gravelga.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #lisp 12:37:46 -!- jfe [~jfe@12.34.212.237] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:37:48 -!- mskou72 [~mskou72@91.144.254.250] has left #lisp 12:38:07 xan__ [~xan@80.174.78.134.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 12:38:09 Codynyx_ [~cody@c-75-72-25-106.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:39:14 apathor_ [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:39:27 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.108.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:39:44 where that's story where people repaired something like a Mars rove with a REPL? I'd like to quote it. 12:39:54 s/rove/rover 12:41:13 nm, i found it with google 12:41:23 ivan-kanis: I guess I would show a loop example to explain what are macros, like fibonnaci with loop 12:41:58 (defun fib (n) "Return the n'th number from the Fibonacci series" (loop repeat n for x = 0 then y and y = 1 then (+ x y) finally (return y))) 12:42:31 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:42:32 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:42:32 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:42:32 -!- chr` [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:42:32 -!- z1 [~z3@60.7.32.191] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:42:32 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.134.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:42:32 -!- Kvaks [~quassel@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:42:32 -!- xian [xian@we-are-the-b.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:42:32 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-25-106.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:42:32 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host57-4-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:42:32 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:42:32 -!- Patzy [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:42:32 -!- mal__ [mal@ks24170.kimsufi.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:42:32 -!- cola_zero_ [~cola_zero@www5116ue.sakura.ne.jp] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:42:32 -!- tkd [~tomek@tlahuizcalpantecuhtli.wa.ht] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:42:32 -!- pkhuong [~pkhuong@gravelga.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:42:47 ivan-kanis: The mars rover story is actually about VxWorks. The person formerly known as Erann Gat talks about fixing a Lisp system in deep space using the REPL. 12:42:55 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:43:36 Vivitron` [~Vivitron`@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:43:49 moore33: thank you, that's what I was thinking of 12:44:12 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:45:05 gat's lisp stories all have the moral of "and i was never allowed to do lisp again" 12:45:15 sub-moral: "see how awful lisp is?" 12:45:59 -!- apathor_ [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 12:46:40 hmm I am trying to find the quote where he says it was useful to have a REPL to fix his system in deep space 12:47:04 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 12:47:39 ivan-kanis: http://www.flownet.com/gat/jpl-lisp.html 12:47:53 "(Debugging a program running on a $100M piece of hardware that is 100 million miles away is an interesting experience. Having a read-eval-print loop running on the spacecraft proved invaluable in finding and fixing the problem. The story of the Remote Agent bug is an interesting one in and of itself.)" 12:48:02 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:49 z1 [~z3@60.7.32.191] has joined #lisp 12:49:08 adeht: thank you, I'll add the quote to my article 12:49:16 Posterdati [~tapioca@host57-4-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:49:21 jao [~user@164.Red-83-32-68.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:49:39 -!- jao [~user@164.Red-83-32-68.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Changing host] 12:49:39 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #lisp 12:49:56 arbscht [~arbscht@60-234-133-173.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 12:49:57 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@60-234-133-173.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Changing host] 12:49:57 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #lisp 12:52:52 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:52:53 -!- CrazyEddy [~semiantim@113.52.233.162] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:53:00 CrazyEddy [~semiantim@113.52.233.162] has joined #lisp 12:53:00 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 12:53:05 -!- CrazyEddy [~semiantim@113.52.233.162] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 12:54:33 urandom__ [~user@ip-92-50-98-52.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 12:56:17 yCrazyEdd [~semiantim@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 12:56:52 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 13:00:07 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:00:37 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 13:01:18 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:01:37 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 13:04:57 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.33.110.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:08:06 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:08:12 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 13:08:38 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-125-214.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 13:12:09 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:12:30 I am quite happy with my article, I think I'll publish it tonight 13:12:37 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:12:56 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:13:27 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 13:13:53 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 13:14:41 what happened to McConnell's rule, only publish it after two weeks in a drawer, untouched 13:14:53 springz [~springz@110.53.94.134] has joined #lisp 13:16:25 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-37-203.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:18:45 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:08 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:21:53 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 13:22:11 ivan-kanis: Many people have told you you'd better let it sit. I still think it's a good idea. 13:22:29 You *will* find faults with it tomorrow... 13:22:41 hehe 13:22:54 well I'll wait tomorrow 13:24:46 you guys are right, I'll wait _gasp_ two weeks 13:25:08 by then lisp will be obsolete 13:25:09 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 13:25:16 :D 13:26:56 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:27:21 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 13:30:17 Just drink a bottle of whiskey and see what happens. 13:30:59 is there something like that in lisps format printf("%d is %sa leap year.\n", year, is_leap_year(year) ? " " : "not "); 13:31:16 anvandare_ [~anvandare@ip-83-134-160-254.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #lisp 13:31:24 i mean that %sa thing 13:31:57 nearly a quarter century of irc and still random splits and disconnects 13:31:58 clhs ~[ 13:31:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cgb.htm 13:32:24 wbooze: strange question 13:32:37 clhs ~* 13:32:37 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cga.htm 13:32:41 Zhivago: a whole bottle? I'll think that'll put me in a coma. 13:32:43 wbooze: Yes, but I recommend not using it. 13:33:08 ivan-kanis: Ah. Not a writer, then. :) 13:33:18 the direct translation is trivial: (format t "~a is ~a a leap year" year (if (leapp year) "" not"))? 13:33:20 -!- literal [hinrik@w.nix.is] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:33:24 Zhivago: I hate writing 13:33:41 ivan-kanis: Generally speaking, perfection is not that valuable, and minor errors give people opportunities to feel intelligent and contributory. 13:33:46 literal [hinrik@w.nix.is] has joined #lisp 13:33:52 ah ok 13:34:04 ivan-kanis: So, I'd publish it with open feedback and iterate when you get bored. 13:34:33 wbooze: Things like that sound like good ideas until one day you decide that internationalization might, after all, be a good idea. 13:34:36 Zhivago: I'll follow people's advice and wait a bit 13:34:43 -!- anvandare [~anvandare@ip-83-134-157-138.dsl.scarlet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:35:18 I am trying to explain why I like Lisp 13:35:49 ivan: You might start with something more simple, like why you like chocolate or puppy dogs. 13:36:14 ivan-kanis: but you're an irrational human being, you can't explain that! 13:37:14 Well I feel my fellow developers are misguided, I am trying to make a case that Lisp is a good idea... 13:37:45 So I guess I am being an altruist 13:37:49 ivan: Unfortunately, that is a meaningless statement without a metric for goodness. 13:38:05 -!- arrsim` [~user@2001:44b8:415c:cc01:6ef0:49ff:fe5e:dedb] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:38:09 Zhivago:Looks/pixie.lisp:; This file is in transition, please don't fix it :] I presume that, 10 years later, one could go ahead and fix it? :) 13:38:52 Zhivago: there is no definition of "quality" either 13:39:08 moore33: Oh, I think deletion is probably the answer. 13:39:12 Zhivago: we just know it is 13:39:35 -!- trbotime [~radicalca@66.96.251.117] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 13:39:38 ivan-kanis: MTBF? 13:39:48 ivan: There are lots of definitions of quality. 13:40:01 evangelisp: someone spreading the good news of the salvation of lisp 13:40:14 ivan: The trick is picking a useful one for your domain. 13:40:38 anvandare_: as long as there will be autodafes, i'm in 13:40:45 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:41:09 ivan: So, instead of trying to say "Lisp is a good idea", why not try "I've found Lisp useful for the following things ..."? 13:41:53 -!- anvandare_ is now known as anvandare 13:45:57 -!- sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:46:16 avodonosov [2e35c344@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.68] has joined #lisp 13:46:28 -!- yakov [~yakov@spb.nexenta.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:47:44 ivan-kanis: i've been reading the art of motorcycly maintenance and it has a very interesting rhetoric about quality. 13:47:44 steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has joined #lisp 13:48:10 sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #lisp 13:49:27 From looking at that earlier link, it seems that "Learning Ruby the Hard Way" is aptly titled. What a heap of shit. 13:51:01 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has joined #lisp 13:51:16 superflit_ [~superflit@75-171-194-92.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:52 -!- superflit [~superflit@75-171-201-114.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:51:53 jjkola [~androirc@212-226-65-185-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #lisp 13:51:53 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 13:52:09 moore33: ruby is off topic here. 13:52:10 "All the original prose of "Learn Python The Hard Way" but with new source code that teaches you Ruby instead of Python." As if. What you you say if "Ruby" was replaced by "Common Lisp?" 13:52:30 H4ns: Writing about languages is not, apparently. 13:52:51 harish [~harish@cm108.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 13:53:11 trbotime [~radicalca@66.96.251.117] has joined #lisp 13:53:41 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:56:06 martin2011qi [~martin@118.26.56.146] has joined #lisp 13:56:31 PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 13:56:55 -!- PuercoPop is now known as Guest63098 13:56:59 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 13:58:23 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:00:14 -!- martin2011qi [~martin@118.26.56.146] has left #lisp 14:01:25 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:02:05 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-qrbyrhhkohqsbsik] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:02:30 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:03:08 I'm not too impressed with his attempt on C, either. 14:04:47 -!- AndroUser2 [~androirc@180.109.206.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:05:18 fredrik_1 [~fredrik@vpn501.hotsplots.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:07 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 14:07:17 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:09:07 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:09:09 guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:45 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.108.77] has joined #lisp 14:09:46 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 14:11:57 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:14:28 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 14:14:43 what is leap_second good for when it's not used in any implementation ? 14:14:49 lol 14:15:23 hey Zhivago hi 14:16:09 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:16:45 and when do you add that ? every 18600 years ? 14:16:56 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.243.185] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 14:17:03 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 14:18:33 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 14:19:21 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:19:29 tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.197.210] has joined #lisp 14:20:05 ah, IERS decides 14:20:45 wbooze: leap seconds get added regularly to fix the correspondence between position of the earth vs the sun and the time we use. the name leap_second doesn't seem like lisp though, so i'm wondering why it is posed here. 14:21:10 Inode [~inode@time.uk.chromedpork.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:17 -!- Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:21:33 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:21:41 regularly, wiki says it's irregular 14:21:56 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 14:22:10 often, but still, why is this on topic?\ 14:22:35 madnificent: it is not. wbooze is not known for staying on topic. 14:22:51 nvm 14:22:55 harish: ty 14:22:57 hrr 14:22:58 grrr 14:23:06 H4ns: thank you! harish, sorry 14:23:22 -!- agumonkey [~agu@201.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:25:39 does anyone know how can i add a C-x 8 RET thing to the default command-table of mcclim app, to invoke the use of unicode names or so ? 14:25:49 bleh 14:25:57 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:26:11 blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:13 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 14:26:58 fold [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 14:27:09 hrm no gnutls wrapper? 14:27:27 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:31:55 there's http://www.cliki.net/SSL-CMUCL for openssl though, or ironclad 14:33:08 -!- fredrik_1 [~fredrik@vpn501.hotsplots.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:33:24 yeah not quite the same sadly 14:33:43 (and cl+ssl which i believe is a port of ssl-cmucl(?)) 14:33:49 curl/cl-curl if the goal is for an https client, for servers there also are proxying httpds that can also provide the ssl layer for application servers 14:33:57 maybe 14:34:39 yeah .. need to implement a secure layer over zmq, so need the lower-level stuff 14:34:40 -!- aerique_ [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 14:35:37 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-99-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:11 -!- chenbing [~user@112.65.34.47] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:37:32 -!- springz [~springz@110.53.94.134] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:37:46 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.108.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:39:47 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:41:12 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:41:37 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 14:42:07 I wonder if we're going to start seeing people coming in here trying to write code in the reader syntax being developed by the 'readable lisp s-expression project'. 14:43:15 what's this? 14:43:57 as opposed to prefixing everything with # http://readable.sourceforge.net/ 14:44:29 I have the strongest feeling this project is an ellaborate solution in search of a problem. 14:44:58 i have the feeling that i need to put my hand on my forehead and sigh 14:45:16 I did ezzackly the same thing. 14:45:16 looks a lot harder to read than the usual syntax 14:45:17 looks like m-expressions 14:45:18 leap-smear lol 14:46:10 and more complicated special case BS than sexps .. so what's the benefit 14:46:51 apparently people that aren't me can read inferred syntax more easily than concrete fully parenthesised syntax. 14:47:15 didn't someone already write a reader extension to do infix math if you really want that? 14:47:19 claims to maintain homoioconicity. 14:48:13 leo2007 [~leo@123.123.249.120] has joined #lisp 14:48:26 doesn't clobber standard s-exp syntax, which is interesting. 14:48:28 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-125-214.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:48:51 but the effort required to develop this project obviously indicates that some people think syntax is 'the problem' wrt lisp. 14:49:17 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:49:44 I don't see how {2 * 3 * 4 * 5} is better than (* 2 3 4 5) though. 14:50:00 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:50:28 it's not better! 14:50:29 agumonkey [~agu@201.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:36 it's just different 14:50:37 it IS better. 14:50:48 the notation was created for a reason. 14:50:53 it's more expensive to parse infix notation, isn't it? 14:50:58 yes. 14:51:01 yep 14:51:02 dunno but clearly what sexps need to make them better is significant whitespace 14:51:04 Fade: how about (2 + 3 * 4) / 2? 14:51:51 cheap-in-write -> expensive-in-read ? 14:51:57 Fade, ever heard of Forth? 14:51:58 wtg 14:52:10 jdz: that wouldn't work as a c-expression 14:52:11 do you know why these things are called polish and reverse polish? 14:52:13 of course 14:52:30 so you do know why polish notation was created but you insist it is silly? 14:52:47 I insisted nothing of the kind. 14:52:54 df___: oh, thanks for pointing this irrelevant fact out to me. 14:53:58 i thought introducing asymmetry was the point! 14:54:12 madnificent: I have read it too, it wasn't coming from me ;) 14:55:34 less->more 14:55:37 lol 14:57:59 so they introduced leap-seconds in 2012 already, and why didn't i hear of any catastrophe then ? 14:58:07 buh 14:58:19 because you don't read news? 14:58:44 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 14:58:51 was there ? 14:59:10 microtrophes. 14:59:14 depends on your definition of catastrophe, but there were problems 14:59:28 hmmm 14:59:58 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:00:01 antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1176449244.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:00:50 some superservers had to reboot thousands of Linux VMs which were were busy-looping (a difference in uptime/reliability and electricity bill) 15:01:21 oh 15:01:30 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 15:02:34 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 15:03:44 CrLF0710 [~user@222.63.97.38] has joined #lisp 15:03:45 -!- guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: The Sleeper has Asleepen] 15:04:18 -!- antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1176449244.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:04:49 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 15:05:18 oGMo: i'm certainly not the only one that has once wrote a macro for that use-case. it's not that hard to write, but in the end the lisp syntax grows on you for math too (except for < and >, they have a graphical meaning which is destroyed. 15:06:24 Destroyed? 15:06:28 < doesn't lose anything meaning 15:06:37 (< x y) is just (x < y) 15:06:41 you just move it 15:06:46 madnificent: really? i'd pick (< 0 x 42) over and 0 < x && x && 42 15:06:49 oh, whatever 15:07:34 what is 'use case'? why not just say 'case'? 15:07:36 madnificent: yeah what jdz said .. i have found that useful quite a few times 15:07:52 madnificent: but, yes 15:15:09 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.54.215] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:16:18 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:16:50 wbooze: there was a leap second last june. 15:16:52 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 15:16:54 Amadiro_ [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 15:17:31 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:17:43 wbooze: the iregularity is due to the iregularity of Earth slowing (due to multiple gravitational influence and the randomness of meteorites falling on Earth). 15:18:05 wbooze: and also the fact that planes tend to fly East rather than East and back West. 15:18:42 -!- i09 [~user@h-155-250.a146.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:18:54 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:19:26 dude, it's due to tidal forces...and whatnot i read it already 15:19:51 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-235-111.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:56 and even things like earthquakes and tsunamis.... 15:20:40 oGMo: no, not exactly. m-expressions look exactly like that: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/m-expression/ 15:20:45 Perhaps I should put it on quicklisp 15:21:02 (for exactly the same reasons I programmed it in the first place) 15:21:09 so it's unpredictable .....and when the difference get's noteworthy they decide to incorporate a leap second 6 months in advance or not 15:21:16 Yes. 15:23:07 what i didn't understand was why software would have problems with it, and specifically linux systems.... 15:23:27 wbooze: the problem happens when you get sub-second calculations in time in many places. 15:23:30 "because linux systems are particularly well thought out"? 15:23:40 Plus, there was an error somewhere in kernel related to it that caused MySQL to blow 15:23:47 well then how about using averages ? 15:23:56 instead of sub-second calcs ? 15:24:10 And in any case, you should plan you time libraries and time using/processing programs to run on onther planets. One day on Mars is 24:39:35 not 24:00:00, and one year is 668.599 sols, not 365.25 days. 15:24:37 wbooze: because, imagine it, there is quite lot of code where 16ms is big difference, not to mention 1000ms inserted randomly 15:24:44 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-181-196.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:24:58 wbooze: well, without even accounting for the leap seconds, on unix systems a second can be more or less of a second, when the system uses NTP and is not synchronized. 15:25:30 So anyways, your code should be prepared. There's a web page listing a lot of misconception about time.. 15:26:16 There: http://unix4lyfe.org/time/ have fun. 15:26:17 look at all the trouble MSFT has had over the years with their clocks. 15:26:32 time is bizarrely difficult to get right. 15:26:44 Actually, I remember a much longer list. 15:26:53 Google Engineering had a nice post about how they had to add leap second into system without blowing it up 15:27:29 wbooze: also, a common "constant" in software developement is ~700ms :) 15:27:38 how? they run small experiments to make sure it would not blow up! 15:27:54 sambio [~cc@190.57.227.107] has joined #lisp 15:28:42 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-185-49.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:28:45 -!- pkhuong_ is now known as pkhuong 15:28:58 there's of course: http://naggum.no/lugm-time.html 15:29:31 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 15:29:42 bjorkintosh: the post involved how they "leaked" leap second into cluster over a time by modding the NTP server software 15:29:58 pushing the clock in small increments over several days 15:30:00 galiley [~user@84.40.73.148] has joined #lisp 15:30:03 that was a clever hack. 15:30:41 hah. they scienced a solution :) 15:32:02 heh 15:33:24 and there were no problems with windows based servers ? 15:33:33 worldwide ? 15:34:36 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:34:48 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 15:34:53 none that i heard of. 15:34:54 you'd have to separate those problems from the rest of the problems to find out. 15:34:55 heh 15:35:07 ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 15:35:14 no problems with bsd based servers either that i heard of. 15:35:26 Ah, it was this page I remembered: http://infiniteundo.com/post/25326999628/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-time 15:36:11 -!- Guest63098 is now known as PuercoPop 15:36:28 wbooze: there was no problem with MS-windows servers because they are rebooted every days at midnight, and the leap second is inserted at midnight too. 15:36:44 helmetk_ [~textual@84.122.59.104.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 15:36:52 "right" 15:36:59 Nobody knows what would happen if a MS-Windows system was left to pass the leap second. 15:38:22 jdz: <16:51:04> Fade: how about (2 + 3 * 4) / 2? so you mean you need an arithmetic DSL? There's one, it's called f2cl. 15:38:37 pjb, it would probably be crash and require a reboot. 15:38:46 since that happens often enough, it would not be noticed, really. 15:39:03 pjb: no, i mean that sometimes infix can be more readable. 15:39:15 Yes. There are libraies. 15:39:37 Notably I would advise to use them if you have top copy-and-paste formulas from a math/physics book. 15:39:42 s/top/to/ 15:40:08 how do I convert a character to a string? 15:40:18 -!- anvandare [~anvandare@ip-83-134-160-254.dsl.scarlet.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:40:41 Forty-3: STRING. but why? 15:40:53 -!- CampinSam [~user@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:41:03 CampinSam [~user@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 15:41:42 jdz: I'm imnplementing lzw for fun 15:41:53 *implementing 15:42:15 Forty-3: but why do you want to convert a character into a string? 15:42:25 *Xach* implemented lzw for real but characters and strings did not come into play 15:42:29 so I can concatenate it 15:42:49 Forty-3: use a stream, then. 15:42:59 why..? 15:43:08 it's easier to use a string 15:43:18 Forty-3: no, it's easier to use a string-output-stream 15:43:22 .. 15:43:29 to do what? 15:43:36 implement lzw 15:43:52 -!- bitonic [~user@li146-81.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:43:54 Forty-3: characters are string designators, so often you don't have to convert them to strings. But when you have (string char) is a nice way. 15:43:59 that's not very specific 15:44:09 stassats: yes it is 15:44:23 ok then, carry on 15:45:25 Forty-3: notice that with concatenate, you can put your character in a list or a vector too, not necessarily in a string. 15:45:40 so? 15:45:46 I'd expect (cons #\c nil) to less expensive than (string #\c). 15:46:07 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:46:40 lol 15:46:44 bitonic [~user@vm-shell1.doc.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:46:45 pjb: and I canconcatenate a list with a string? 15:46:46 (concatenate 'string (cons #\c nil) #(#\a) (string #\t)) => "cat" 15:46:55 sure, concatenate works on sequences. 15:46:57 ok 15:47:03 (concatenate 'vector (cons #\c nil) #(#\a) (string #\t)) => #(#\c #\a #\t) 15:47:14 (concatenate 'list (cons #\c nil) #(#\a) (string #\t)) => (#\c #\a #\t) 15:48:01 ykm [~ykm@124.155.255.197] has joined #lisp 15:48:33 if you have some time, check out git://github.com/edicl/hunchentoot and do some load testing. http://paste.lisp.org/display/131188 15:49:19 H4ns: what kind of load testing? 15:50:04 stassats: things that might max out the server 15:50:24 stassats: the patches fix ungraceful handling over overload conditions and fd leakage 15:50:40 OF overload conditions 15:50:47 -!- DGASAU` [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:52:59 apachebench mysteriously stopped working 15:57:03 rooftopjoe [56781126@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.120.17.38] has joined #lisp 15:57:11 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 15:57:48 because hunchentoot failed_ 15:57:49 ? 15:57:53 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-198-46.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:56 no 15:58:35 have no idea why, just doesn't want to connect to localhost 15:58:41 hi. i'm trying to write a curried version of this procedure: http://ideone.com/XNfHV but i'm not sure how to do it 15:59:08 -!- CrLF0710 [~user@222.63.97.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:59:18 (alexandria:curry #'between 2) 15:59:25 rooftopjoe: for a scheme answer, try #scheme. 16:00:19 heh, ok, thanks 16:00:28 connecting to 0.0.0.0 or the network interface address works fine 16:00:53 steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-zkipdwkpohgctlwf] has joined #lisp 16:00:57 lusory [~lusory@bb42-60-31-187.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 16:00:58 sabalaba [~Adium@108-252-136-195.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:03 and to 127.0.0.1, but not to localhost 16:01:16 zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has joined #lisp 16:01:16 ipv6? 16:01:23 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:01:44 well, everything works fine, just apachebench 16:01:46 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 16:01:59 maybe it does its hostname lookup "better" 16:04:57 well, now after terrorizing hunchentoot with requests, it stopped answering 16:05:10 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:25 huchentoot is not robust? 16:05:43 bjorkintosh: you should write newspaper headlines 16:05:53 stassats: interesting. any additional information? 16:05:57 hahaha. 16:06:09 bjorkintosh: in single-threaded mode, i find it to be very robust. 16:06:25 bjorkintosh: in multi-threaded mode not so much, that's why i'm not using it. 16:06:55 H4ns: well, before that, it aborted after 121 requests, but now ab just says apr_socket_recv: Connection reset by peer (104) 16:07:11 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:07:14 -!- bitonic [~user@vm-shell1.doc.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:07:28 with [2012-08-24 20:07:02 [WARNING]] Can't handle a new request, too many request threads already 16:07:35 at the very beginning 16:07:41 -!- ykm [~ykm@124.155.255.197] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:07:53 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@201.251.103.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:07:55 stassats: that is the thing that mathieu wanted to fix. 16:08:16 although wget still works fine 16:09:12 stassats: thanks - i'll post that to him, maybe he can reproduce and fix the issue. is that with linux against linux on one box? how many cores? sbcl? 16:09:41 yes, 4 cores 16:09:42 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-99-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:10:18 ok. will post. 16:10:31 1000 concurrent requests 16:10:50 old hunchentoot bails out after ~700 requests, but i can restart checking it again 16:11:28 rejecting requests is a fine load handling strategy. Is there actually a problem? 16:11:43 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-088-069-118-122.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:12:02 1000 requests doesn't seem like a lot of load at all. 16:12:25 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 16:12:28 sykopomp: concurrent? 16:12:48 yeah 16:13:05 pkhuong: with the git changes i do 1000 requests, it bails out after a 100 or so, then i try to do 1000 requests again, and not a single request succeeds 16:13:32 i've tested on osx with sbcl and siege and found it to be rather stable. 16:13:34 does hunchentoot consume an FD for each req? 16:13:40 a lot of webservers out there, including ones for scripting languages, can handle C10k at this point. 16:13:55 Fade: it consumes a thread, which is more serious than the FD issue. 16:14:13 Fade: for each connection. 16:14:29 sykopomp: hunchentoot in mt mode is not among those servers. 16:14:40 1000 sounds like you're running out of file descriptors due to ulimits 16:14:55 No. It is not. In single-threaded mode, it can only handle a single concurrent request, right? 16:15:02 sykopomp: correct. 16:15:17 -!- `fogus [~fogus@burke-matrex.d-a-s.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:15:36 Fade: ISTM a more useful metric is how many requests it can serve per seconds, and with what latency. 16:15:39 And then, with all our mobil devices, you have to take into account relativistic drift: http://metrologyforum.tm.agilent.com/pdf/flying_clock_math.pdf 16:15:57 stassats: i can reproduce the "connection reset by peer" behavior 16:15:59 that was for sykopomp even 16:16:17 *nod* 16:16:35 sure, I agree. 16:16:47 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:17:13 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 16:17:37 -!- pjb is now known as Guest7457 16:17:38 anon119 [~bman@12.104.144.2] has joined #lisp 16:17:40 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-72-190-112-13.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:18:13 -!- Amadiro_ [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:18:31 Fade: what stassats's seeing is that after a few (less than a 1000) requests under load, subsequent, non-concurrent, requests all fail. 16:18:43 It's inacceptable: I had to reboot my emacs because linux updated it and erased the old emacs version files. 16:19:04 Guest7457: wrong channel 16:19:12 :D 16:19:15 maybe apachebench is too blame, because wget requests come through fine 16:19:35 -!- avodonosov [2e35c344@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.68] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:20:05 try httperf, too 16:21:29 sabalaba1 [~Adium@108-252-136-195.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:32 -!- Guest7457 is now known as pjb` 16:21:40 decreasing the number of concurrent requests in the subsequent trials to 500 makes it work 16:21:42 interesting. siege still works with no issues at all, ab fails like for stassats 16:21:42 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 16:22:04 work as in 137 requests succeed 16:22:05 siege/httperf/ab all gave me different results based on their mood. 16:22:24 -!- sabalaba [~Adium@108-252-136-195.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:22:46 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:23:29 very strange condition indeed. well, maybe mathieu can figure it out. 16:25:10 About GPS, wikipedia says: If general relativity were not accounted for, a navigational fix based on the GPS satellites would be false after only 2 minutes, and errors in global positions would continue to accumulate at a rate of about 10 kilometers each day. 16:25:39 So obviously, they also have to take that into account on all the computers in space and on other planets. 16:27:27 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:27:40 anon1191 [~bman@12.104.144.2] has joined #lisp 16:27:55 ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 16:29:57 anon1192 [~bman@12.104.144.2] has joined #lisp 16:30:51 pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 16:31:18 -!- anon119 [~bman@12.104.144.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:33:07 -!- anon1191 [~bman@12.104.144.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:34:22 mal__ [mal@ks24170.kimsufi.com] has joined #lisp 16:35:20 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 16:37:19 -!- agumonkey [~agu@201.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:39:22 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 16:39:53 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:40:59 fredrik_1 [~fredrik@vpn14.hotsplots.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:40 agumonkey [~agu@249.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:21 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-8.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:44:54 oconnore [~eric@38.111.17.138] has joined #lisp 16:45:15 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-8.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:46:30 they are all on galaxynet aren't they? 16:46:54 -!- PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:50:13 mmajchrzak1 [~mmajchrza@host-81-190-228-83.wroclaw.mm.pl] has joined #lisp 16:50:55 I don't think russian computers are on it. But otherwise, AFAIK all the recent USA ones are on the IPN. 16:51:25 But I guess for now it's mostly ad-hoc connections. 16:51:36 More like uucp than IP. 16:53:20 i think it is more along the lines of Xmodem/kermit 16:54:18 wbooze: there was some issue with the mutex implementation as well which was apparently fixed since.. I've not had issues with the netbsd-based center here, but the set software in use is restricted too (mysql also had some issue, and is unused there) 16:54:30 wbooze: or rather, futex implementation 16:55:28 I'm having trouble implementing lzm: http://fpaste.org/7uHc/ 16:55:38 I'm following http://www.maximumcompression.com/compression_faq/compfaq_part2.php 16:55:42 [6502] [58959a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.154.87] has joined #lisp 16:55:44 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.234.45] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:55:54 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has left #lisp 16:55:57 when I run it, I get a bunch of NILs 16:56:24 -!- rooftopjoe [56781126@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.120.17.38] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:56:28 pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 16:57:07 does anything jump out at you? 16:58:22 <|3b|> formatting jumps out :/ 16:58:33 what about? 16:59:24 <|3b|> tabs instead of spaces, (w (db ...)) on one line is confusing (thought it was 1 var W initialized to an array instead of 2 vars) 16:59:53 maxm- [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has joined #lisp 17:00:04 -!- maxm [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:00:10 qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 17:00:15 <|3b|> DO starts a new LOOP clause, so put it at the beginning of a line instead of the end of previous line 17:00:22 ok 17:00:27 wait 17:00:32 oh, nvm 17:00:48 <|3b|> and you can bind variables in LOOP, so i'd do that instead of DO (LET ...) 17:00:57 ok 17:01:08 *|3b|* would move the conditional into the LOOP too 17:01:20 how would I do that..? 17:01:23 loop is fun 17:01:43 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 17:01:44 <|3b|> (loop ... if (...) do ... 17:01:46 ah 17:01:56 Forty-3: look at with, for, if, when, until, etc 17:01:57 wait, but then how do I get the else clause? 17:02:05 the hyperspec has a reference of all loop keywords 17:02:06 bbl 17:02:09 <|3b|> if ... do ... else do ... 17:02:18 the hyperspec is so confusing... 17:03:26 hm 17:03:34 loop looks decidedly not like lisp 17:03:41 *|3b|* would expect that function to return a single NIL, not a bunch of them 17:03:58 *|3b|* actually likes that feature of LOOP 17:04:16 <|3b|> much easier to distinguish the flow-control logic from the actual work that way 17:04:19 Forty-3: loop is in lisp, how can it look not like it? 17:04:22 Forty-3, it is from the not-so-functional part of CL 17:04:28 it's too much like format 17:04:28 it is a macro. 17:04:32 true 17:04:45 one monster of a macro... 17:04:47 also, do not forget that CL is a multi-paradigm language. 17:04:54 well, yes 17:05:06 -!- superflit [~superflit@75-171-194-92.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:05:13 see what i did there? I used a buzzword! :) 17:05:15 <|3b|> LOOP is harder to deal with from code though 17:05:19 superflit [~superflit@140.226.4.66] has joined #lisp 17:05:48 <|3b|> some people prefer ITERATE, which is a sexp-based version of LOOP (with some extra features and specified way to extend it) 17:06:44 <|3b|> also, (cons k NIL) should probably be (list k) 17:06:47 ok, now it looks like http://fpaste.org/MWjO/ 17:07:22 <|3b|> WITH in loop only assigns when entering the loop, you probably wanted FOR there 17:07:42 ok 17:08:04 will that conflict with the other for? 17:08:08 <|3b|> no 17:08:21 k 17:08:31 <|3b|> you can have as many as you want of most LOOP clauses 17:08:31 how does it know what to loop with? 17:08:48 <|3b|> for = doesn't terminate iteraTion 17:08:51 ok 17:09:24 <|3b|> and if multiple FOR clauses have termination tests, it just checks all of them and ends when any of them are true 17:09:35 your indentation is way off 17:09:35 -!- z1 [~z3@60.7.32.191] has quit [Quit: ] 17:09:36 <|3b|> same with the termination tests outside of FOR clauses 17:09:39 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: noooooo] 17:09:54 <|3b|> you don't need PROGN inside a DO clause 17:09:59 ok 17:10:01 PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.237.7.137] has joined #lisp 17:10:27 -!- PuercoPop is now known as Guest35268 17:10:39 so now it looks a bit different 17:10:48 but it still does the same thing 17:10:57 <|3b|> and LOOP doesn't return anything unless you use certain clauses (like RETURN or ALWAYS) 17:11:09 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:11:15 don't care if it returns anything 17:11:19 notice the print 17:11:32 <|3b|> or if you use (RETURN ...) 17:11:34 which is currently outputting NIL 17:11:55 piko [~piko@ip4-83-240-108-205.cust.nbox.cz] has joined #lisp 17:12:01 <|3b|> ah, not quite how i interpretted the original question 17:12:37 -!- Guest35268 is now known as PuercoPop 17:14:02 <|3b|> well, what happens on the first character? 17:14:33 NIL 17:14:34 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 17:14:44 <|3b|> i mean think about what the code does 17:14:52 ah 17:15:03 "be the interperter" 17:15:06 <|3b|> x is a string containing the first character, and w is NIL, and DB is empty, right? 17:15:30 even if it weren't empty, EQL won't compare the strings the way you expect it to 17:15:45 <|3b|> true 17:17:02 minion: please tell Forty-3 about PCL 17:17:03 Forty-3: have a look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 17:17:21 stassats: I'm reaqding that atm, but thanks anyway 17:17:26 hm 17:17:45 I think that http://www.maximumcompression.com/compression_faq/compfaq_part2.php has it backwards 17:18:38 gah 17:18:50 reversing it does the same thing 17:19:18 er 17:19:24 now it just outputs NIL 17:19:29 <|3b|> actually, maybe stassats is right 17:19:54 DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #lisp 17:19:58 hm 17:20:02 at least add :test #'equal to find and position 17:20:06 could be a typo 17:20:19 stassats: hm? 17:20:24 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:20:45 ikki [~ikki@200.77.61.109] has joined #lisp 17:20:46 |3b|: well a progn in a do let emacs nicely indent that body. 17:21:09 <|3b|> pjb: indents properly without it for me 17:21:18 Not here. 17:21:28 do (form1) 17:21:30 (form 2) 17:21:32 instead of 17:21:34 do (form1) 17:21:37 (form2) 17:21:41 mine does the latter 17:21:43 *|3b|* gets the latter 17:22:05 slime doesn't like me. 17:22:18 <|3b|> possibly need to load the indentation contrib? 17:22:30 stassats: what does that do? 17:22:36 I have it. 17:22:41 clhs find 17:22:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_.htm 17:22:52 <|3b|> Forty-3: most things use EQL for comparison by default, which checks for identity 17:23:14 <|3b|> Forty-3: and most strings with the same contents are not the same string, so don't have the same identity 17:23:18 so I need to change it to equivlance, correct? 17:23:25 huh? 17:23:34 <|3b|> using a :test of #'equal or #'string= test for same contents instead of same object 17:23:39 so strings are not immutable? 17:23:41 clhs 17.2.1 17:23:42 Satisfying a Two-Argument Test: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/17_ba.htm 17:23:46 <|3b|> strings are mutable 17:23:53 Forty-3: some strings are mutable. 17:23:54 Forty-3: that's irrelevant 17:24:05 eh 17:24:18 "immutable" (make-array 7 :element-type 'character :initial-contents "mutable") 17:24:20 <|3b|> (though they might also be literals, in which case mutating them would be nonconforing code) 17:25:00 <|3b|> strings you make with CONCATENATE will all be new objects though 17:25:16 srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:55 stassats: thanks 17:28:00 now it partially works 17:31:11 hm 17:32:07 Forty-3: you should probably read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lempel%E2%80%93Ziv%E2%80%93Welch 17:32:19 I don't see any dictionary in your code. 17:32:40 It is horrible, in time complexity. 17:33:21 There's also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IFQLvP_MZA 17:33:59 pjb: db 17:34:05 It's a vector, not a dictionary. 17:34:12 Try (make-hash-table) instead. 17:34:13 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:34:25 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 17:34:53 Don't search the string twice in it! position returns nil when it's not found. 17:35:07 Just use gethash which also returns nil when not found. 17:35:51 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:36:37 pjb: so? 17:36:40 Instead of concatenating prefixes of your input, you could use subseq or even better: nsubseq. 17:36:52 why does it need to be a hash table? 17:37:03 oh, I see 17:37:10 so find + position is ludicrous O(2n). position is riduculous O(n), gethash is nice O(1). 17:37:28 yes, yes, I know about searching 17:38:16 https://github.com/xach/skippy/blob/master/lzw.lisp#L39 has the lzw i use for writing gifs 17:38:28 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-189-184.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:40:13 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.192.204] has joined #lisp 17:40:47 pjb: wait, so I can output the index of something in a hash table? 17:40:54 powering e.g. http://wigflip.com/signbot/ 17:42:20 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 17:42:53 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 17:42:53 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:43:21 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:05 Forty-3: you can IN put an index in a hash-table. 17:44:20 (let ((counter -1)) (setf (gethash word dict) (incf counter)) ) 17:52:16 bitonic [~user@host86-138-142-11.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:58:46 pjb: huh? 17:59:48 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:00:08 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:00:23 -!- sabalaba1 [~Adium@108-252-136-195.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:00:43 -!- redline6561_ [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:01:15 sabalaba [~Adium@108-252-136-195.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:50 -!- zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has quit [Quit: ] 18:02:37 hi. is it possible to assign a value (with setf) to a struct member via a function that returns a member? 18:03:08 ghast: not really 18:03:21 oh. 18:03:22 slot-value isn't specified to work on structures 18:03:33 now, your implementation may do it 18:03:44 -!- [6502] [58959a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.154.87] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:04:03 i tried doing something like (setf (function-that-returns-member my-struct) value) and it failed 18:04:21 on, no, that's not going to work at all 18:04:39 i see. 18:05:03 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-8.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:05:25 should i abandon structs and use CLOS then? 18:05:34 the function-that-returns-member may return a slot-name, and then you'd use (setf (slot-value (function-that-returns-member my-struct) my-struct) value) (not guaranteed to work) 18:05:50 oh i'll try that 18:06:01 but what are you trying to do? 18:06:13 and yes, CLOS is more suited for this 18:06:18 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 18:07:02 i was playing around with structs to practise 18:07:24 you can also just return accessors 18:07:27 i wanted to see if instead of directly setting a member i could use a proxy function to get a member and set that instead 18:07:45 (lambda (x) (setf (my-struct-slot my-struct) x)) 18:08:08 and then that'd be (funcall (function-that-returns-member my-struct) y) 18:08:17 or you can do all the setting inside function-that-returns-member altogether 18:08:21 and that lambda would be the function-that-returns-member? 18:08:31 ghast: returned by it 18:08:42 yeah i see 18:08:59 so instead i would have a function-that-returns-member-returning-lambda 18:09:12 yes 18:09:17 oh very interesting 18:09:26 there are many possibilities 18:09:27 i'll try that ... 18:09:46 i didn't thought about doing it like that way 18:09:48 nice 18:09:52 hey thanks 18:10:12 Lone_Wanderer [~dan@li20-202.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 18:10:51 I'm following pjb advice and wrapping some foreign functions with Lisp ones and (declare (type ...)). You know, this type thing is a nice feature. 18:11:23 didi: declare type is not a way to make it more secure 18:11:32 clhs check-type 18:11:32 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_check_.htm 18:11:33 stassats`: No? 18:11:36 Oh. 18:11:41 stassats`: Thanks. 18:12:00 didi: no, it just becomes undefined what happens when you pass something not conforming to the type 18:12:08 oic 18:12:17 sbcl signals a type error 18:12:18 Yeah, much better. :^) 18:12:30 stassats`: that's what I was seeing. 18:12:53 in the recent post on planet.lisp.org, ccl was overflowing a declared fixnum silently 18:13:04 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:14:06 Whitesquall [~notwhites@109.225.15.97] has joined #lisp 18:14:19 ((lambda (x) (declare (fixnum x)) (incf x) x) most-positive-fixnum) => -1152921504606846976 18:15:10 or even ((lambda (x) (declare (fixnum x)) (incf x) x) (1+ most-positive-fixnum)) => # 18:16:04 adding (optimize safety) gets you an error 18:16:46 ghast: a function can return a closure that does the setf for you. 18:17:18 how do I convert a character to its numeric equivlant? 18:17:22 Notice that there may not be a (function (setf struct-slot)), it's implementation dependent. 18:17:26 Forty-3: code-char char-code 18:17:28 clhs char-code 18:17:28 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_char_c.htm 18:17:45 pjb: i believe somebody already suggested returning a closure 18:17:57 Yes, I've got some time lag, not the same planet. 18:18:17 -!- dys [~user@2a01:1e8:e100:8296:21a:4dff:fe4e:273a] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:18:32 figures 18:19:12 dys [~user@2a01:1e8:e100:8296:21a:4dff:fe4e:273a] has joined #lisp 18:19:16 clhs digit-char-p 18:19:16 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_digi_1.htm 18:19:20 for numerical characters 18:19:51 DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-118-10.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:08 stassats`: right. But when you add the context of lzw, you only think of char-code. :-) 18:20:20 -!- Lone_Wanderer [~dan@li20-202.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 18:22:37 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:28:39 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: nuclear meltdown] 18:30:16 -!- jdz [~jdz@91.105.18.48] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:34:40 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:36:28 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.77.61.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:41:20 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 18:42:05 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:42:21 -!- fredrik_1 [~fredrik@vpn14.hotsplots.net] has left #lisp 18:48:56 dmx [~dmx@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:51 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 18:51:58 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-8.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:52:03 ikki [~ikki@200.77.61.109] has joined #lisp 19:07:03 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:08:06 redline6561 [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 19:09:44 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:11:35 VieiraN [~VieiraN@200-171-134-72.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 19:13:09 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:17:13 -!- redline6561 [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 19:17:24 hagish_ [~hagish@p57BCFBD1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:55 redline6561 [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 19:18:55 -!- redline6561 [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:18:58 -!- sabalaba [~Adium@108-252-136-195.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:19:13 huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has joined #lisp 19:19:17 redline6561 [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 19:19:18 huangjs_ [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has joined #lisp 19:19:26 -!- huangjs_ [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has quit [Client Quit] 19:20:21 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 19:22:57 -!- redline6561 [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:23:39 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 19:23:54 snearch [~snearch@p5795B13D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:07 redline6561 [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 19:26:28 superflit_ [~superflit@71-218-198-245.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:59 puchacz_ [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:29:36 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.4.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:33:00 -!- helmetk_ [~textual@84.122.59.104.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:33:03 -!- superflit_ [~superflit@71-218-198-245.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:33:51 Speaker [~Speaker@40.Red-83-50-115.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:57 Hello. 19:33:59 Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 19:34:38 Does anyone know how to make SLIME look like Lispbox's slime? 19:34:53 how does lispbox's slime look? 19:35:43 My current prompt, is my lisp prompt. 19:35:52 It looks like this: * 19:36:13 Speaker: do you want (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) in your .emacs? 19:36:27 Exactly. 19:36:34 Thanks sir. 19:40:51 pjb, stassats : regarding my previous question (about setf'ing the value of a struct member returned by a function), an easy way was to modify the function to return the name (symbol) of the member, instead of the member itself, then use (setf (slot-value my-struct (function-that-returns-struct-member-name)) newvalue). 19:41:24 hey http://paste.lisp.org/display/131193 19:41:36 ghast: it's not standard 19:41:45 isn't it? 19:42:12 ghast: unfortunately 19:42:19 wbooze: because it's wrong? 19:42:36 jfe [~jfe@12.34.212.237] has joined #lisp 19:42:46 hi all 19:42:47 is slot-value not standard? or is setf'ing a slot-value not standard? 19:42:51 stassats explain please i don't get it! 19:42:58 wbooze: did you write it? 19:43:03 ghast: slot-value on structures 19:43:06 clhs slot-value 19:43:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_slt_va.htm 19:43:33 it actually prints hello, but after giving me something like a kernel index for string out of bounds error or sometimes a 5 is not a (mod 5) 19:43:35 see the last paragraph in the description 19:44:00 but it says "The macro setf can be used with slot-value to change the value of a slot. " 19:44:08 wbooze: Why are you comparing with "? 19:44:18 wbooze: well, think about it, it goes out of bounds, which means it doesn't terminate 19:44:24 look at your termination clause carefully 19:44:38 and now back to the string, where the hell do you see a #\" in it? 19:44:50 cause comparing it with #/o terminates it there which gives me only hell and not hello 19:44:50 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:44:56 -!- Speaker [~Speaker@40.Red-83-50-115.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 19:45:05 wbooze: Hehe, " is not part of the string. 19:45:13 wbooze: are for real? 19:45:17 are you 19:45:23 wbooze: Unless you do something like "foo\"" 19:45:29 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:41 oh 19:46:08 well no no i know it's not part of the string 19:46:46 what's the terminating char of a string then ? 19:46:52 ghast: i meant exceptional situations 19:47:32 stassats`: exceptional situations? what would be an exceptional situation? i don't understand. 19:47:41 ghast: the paragraph 19:47:46 wbooze: There is none. 19:47:53 wbooze: You're thinking of C. 19:47:54 the last paragraph of the exceptional situations section 19:48:48 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-170-145.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:49:03 stassats`: aah that paragraph, i see it. Yes, actually i know that that case can not happen because of the way it is coded. However, it's okay if it explodes or goes undefined if the slot is missing. 19:49:27 ghast: no, it's not about missing slots 19:49:33 it's about slot-value 19:49:44 answer_421 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 19:49:57 i mean, when there is no such slot, like a struct with members 'x 'y 'z and you try to access member 'w 19:50:05 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-170-145.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:51:02 read the whole section carefully, the last paragraph is not about missing slots 19:51:05 -!- Whitesquall [~notwhites@109.225.15.97] has left #lisp 19:51:54 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:52:06 you mean the "The specific behaviour dpeends on object's metaclass. [...]" part? 19:52:15 yes 19:54:32 does that apply even to the case in which the slot-name exists? 19:55:01 i'm telling you for the third time, it's not about missing slots 19:55:41 what happens to the missing slots is described in the previous paragraphs 19:55:48 yes, i see. 19:56:58 it may be confusing, but it clears the confusion, because it says " An error is never signaled if object has metaclass standard-class", while the previous paragraphs say that it does signal, via slot-missing function 19:57:14 -!- Kvaks_ [~quassel@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:57:33 but all existing implementation allow slot-value to be used on structures 19:58:06 is the metaclass something which depends on the implementation? 19:58:31 clhs glossary/metaclass 19:58:31 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_m.htm#metaclass 20:00:00 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:00:03 the metaclass defines the behaviour of classes, the behaviour of standard-classes is defined by the Meta Object Protocol, which many implementations implement 20:00:20 structure-class is not described anywhere, so it may do whatever it wants 20:00:22 Kvaks [~quassel@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:00:40 so it boils down to that 20:01:02 well, turns out the implementations chose to make them similar, so it works 20:07:09 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:13:21 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-0-234-171.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:16:42 ghast: structures _could_ be implemented as CLOS object, but since CLOS was specified long after structure existed, structures are often implemented differently. 20:17:19 ghast: furthermore, you can also have (defstruct (s (:type list)) ) or (defstruct (s (:type vector)) ), and to access these you need to use the functions provided by defstruct. 20:17:25 ISF [~ivan@189.61.221.122] has joined #lisp 20:17:35 kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-80-180.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 20:18:03 ghast: so you could pass the name of the reader or writer, but it's simplier and safer to just pass a closure. 20:18:32 Or just use CLOS classes instead of structures. 20:18:37 -!- jnbek|wc [~jnbek@pdpc/supporter/active/jnbek] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:19:06 my idea was to use this function as both a reader of a member, and also to be setf'able 20:19:57 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:20:43 ghast: you can also write your own defstruct macro to define all the accessors you want. 20:21:00 ghast: so, what's your real problem? What do you want to do? 20:21:51 i just wanted to emulate the behaviour of what i sometimes do in C, passing a pointer to a member, this way you can both read and write it, without actually even knowing which member it is 20:22:10 notice, i'm only toying around, i want to learn some CL, no serious stuff here 20:22:25 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:23:02 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-80-180.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:25:07 *didi* likes to use opaque stuff 20:25:44 ghast: pass functions around. 20:26:06 ghast: that'll even work with arbitrary places. 20:26:35 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-253-195.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 20:27:54 a silly example ... say i've got a struct of members x and y (integers), and i want a function that returns a random member ... how could i do it? 20:28:27 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 20:28:56 you map integers to members in some way and the call random 20:29:09 and they're not members, they are slots 20:29:13 ok, slots. 20:29:15 ghast: see also http://www.informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html#Improved-DEFSTRUCT-macro--run-time-access-to-the-fields 20:29:24 ghast: passing "pointers" is done with closure in lisp. 20:29:46 ooh. 20:34:11 galdor: See also http://www.informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html#C-like-pointers-in-Lisp 20:34:41 Of course, usually we don't use something like & and deref, because those are low-level tools, not abstractions. 20:35:41 For example, we may use things like Cells http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/ or the KR object system http://www.cliki.net/KR 20:36:43 The problem also with having such a reference to random places, is that you will use it to modify this place, so you will have non obvious mutations. This is not good in the functional style. 20:40:10 papajustify [~slugged@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:11 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 20:43:09 I'm guessing CLISP doesn't like when a foreign library uses threads too? Anyway, now I have callbacks working with SBCL. It's a beautiful thing to see. 20:44:24 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.192.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:45:59 -!- anon1192 [~bman@12.104.144.2] has left #lisp 20:45:59 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:46:22 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:37 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-125-214.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 20:47:44 didi: for various implementations I know that support threads, libraries that create threads should "register" those threads to the lisp runtime system in general 20:48:03 also that way for various other embedded languages like mozilla spidermonkey 20:50:24 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-253-195.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:52:47 -!- galiley [~user@84.40.73.148] has left #lisp 20:53:22 phadthai: I see. That's a problem for CFFI, for example, no? I mean, now you can't just use any foreign library. 20:54:31 Yes, FFI is a problem. 20:54:36 pjb: Indeed. 20:54:38 bobTBuilder [625504e6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.85.4.230] has joined #lisp 20:54:43 *|3b|* would only expect it to matter if the foreign thread makes callbacks to lisp code, but it is a problem in that case 20:54:48 didi: I really hate libraries that not only use callbacks, but also call them in arbitrary contexts. 20:54:52 Rewrite those libraries in Lisp, or port Zeta-C to Common Lisp, or implement a C compiler targetting lisp. 20:55:05 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-86-44.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 20:55:14 that's a problem even in C. 20:55:23 Indeed. 20:55:59 sure 20:56:27 and there's the whole processes vs threads debate 20:56:43 <|3b|> pjb: not every library comes with source, and not every source of callbacks from foreign threads is a 'library' 20:57:17 *|3b|* suspects trying to run a whole OS in zeta-c or other lisp-targetting c compiler wouldn't help much 20:57:45 -!- bobTBuilder [625504e6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.85.4.230] has quit [Client Quit] 20:57:51 -!- harish [~harish@cm108.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:57:54 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-185-49.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:58:46 -!- snearch [~snearch@p5795B13D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:03:22 *didi* discovers C-c C-u (Achievement Unlocked) 21:03:45 so anyone gotta clue what's wrong with my example ? 21:03:58 c to cl compiler: https://github.com/vsedach/Vacietis 21:04:00 wbooze: We already told you. 21:04:02 apparently i can't get beyond the string index ! 21:04:16 Yes. 21:04:48 so i have to add it with something like (last "string") ? back ? 21:04:56 what? 21:05:17 i was disconnected sorry 21:05:23 maybe i didn't get it 21:05:29 wbooze: Why don't you look for (>= i (length string))? 21:05:46 wbooze: I would use `loop' for what you're doing, but still. 21:06:00 wbooze: do you realize how stupid is checking for (last string)? 21:06:19 didi: i would use (princ string) 21:06:23 stassats`: Hehe. 21:06:46 Presumably they want to iterate over the string. 21:07:34 didi: i did (>= idx (length str)) in my do loop, but it's still failing 21:08:49 should be (= idx (1- (length str))) 21:08:51 like in here http://paste.lisp.org/display/131194 21:09:32 wbooze: Listen to stassats`. 21:09:56 well, it won't print the last character 21:10:03 |3b|: a lot of C libraries could be compiled and run correctly on a CL VM. Nowadays, almost all the libraries you use are written in portable C, and generally don't do anything bad. (or else, they'd be security holes or would otherwise be rejected by distributions for bad coding quality). 21:10:28 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-48-236.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:35 wbooze: That's how I would do it: (loop for c across "hello" do (princ c)) 21:10:41 (let ((str "hello")) (do ((idx 0 (1+ idx))) ((= idx (length str))) (princ (char str idx)))) 21:11:06 or (princ "hello") or (mapc #'princ "hello"), or (loop for char across string do (princ char)) 21:13:19 -!- answer_421 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:13:42 <|3b|> pjb: not sure that is as true of the things i've seen that want to run callbacks from arbitrary threads... windows has no source and wouldn't be in linux distros anyway, high-performance opengl drivers have no source and aren't in distros, fuse and sound drivers probably are in distros and have source, not sure they would like a CL VM though 21:13:53 wbooze: I personally would avoid having to deal with boundaries and use things that deal with them automatically, like `dolist', `map' and friends. 21:14:23 -!- papajustify [~slugged@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: 'bye.] 21:14:23 wbooze: (let ((str "hello")) (do ((idx 0 (1+ idx))) ((>= idx (length str)) (terpri)) (let ((char (char str idx))) (princ char)))) 21:14:41 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:15:27 or (let ((str "hello")) (dotimes (i (length str)) (princ (char str i)))) 21:15:29 |3b|: I'm talking about normal libraries: xml parsers, libusb, gtk, etc. 21:15:49 resu [~user@c-107-4-154-9.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:02 <|3b|> pjb: right, but i thought we were supposed to just rewrite those in lisp :) 21:16:21 Well, the idea here is that you could avoid rewriting them in lisp, if you have a good C-to-CL compiler. 21:16:25 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-8.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:16:27 |3b|: anything to avoid getting things done 21:16:58 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-212-128-247.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:15 For example, the non-debuggability of C thru FFI would be avoided. 21:17:49 GTK uses threads. 21:18:05 At least it is linked against it. 21:19:42 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:20:44 It has also a whole mechanism to allow calls to not freeze the interface. 21:21:04 -!- bitonic [~user@host86-138-142-11.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:21:10 Daisy [Daisy@host-95-206-48-89.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 21:21:11 papajustify [~slugged@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:15 Presumably using threads. 21:22:13 Yes, but if you compiled it, instead of using the unix pthread library, you'd use bordeaux-thread under the pthread API. 21:22:49 *didi* likes that 21:22:57 So C libraries using threads compiled with your c-to-cl compiler using your C standard libraries implemented in CL would be entirely compatible, safe and debuggable as any other CL code. 21:23:08 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 21:25:42 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-212-128-247.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:26:59 -!- resu [~user@c-107-4-154-9.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:27:05 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.21.4] has joined #lisp 21:28:25 huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has joined #lisp 21:29:51 and why is this http://paste.lisp.org/display/131195 21:30:14 the type error makes me mad! 21:30:51 you're not listening to anyone, are you? 21:31:22 -!- papajustify [~slugged@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: 'bye.] 21:41:06 papajustify [~slugged@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:31 dude, do is broken then ? 21:41:51 why the second let with char when it's already contained in the var list of do ? 21:42:09 heh ? 21:42:30 and even do* does not alter anything there 21:42:58 wbooze: I think you misunderstood do*. 21:42:59 you assign do to zero, and then to the length of the string. you have example code to do what you want right here in the channel, exactly. 21:43:16 (idx 0 (length str)) doesn't seem right. 21:43:21 -!- xan__ [~xan@80.174.78.134.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:43:33 huh ? 21:44:30 (idx 0 (length str) and (char (char str 0) (char str idx)) should both be acceptable as variables with var-name init step format 21:44:51 yes, but the step is what the variable is changed to. 21:45:09 and, code: «(do ((idx 0 (1+ idx))) ((= idx (length str))) (princ (char str idx)))» it's right up there. 21:46:02 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:46:07 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 21:48:01 pjb: By "C standard libraries" you mean libc, for example? 21:48:10 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 21:49:35 oh man, do is really broken 21:50:02 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:50:08 organixpear [602a0e80@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.42.14.128] has joined #lisp 21:50:49 *moore33* never uses do anymore; loop rules. 21:50:59 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.234.45] has joined #lisp 21:51:00 I'm working with Embeddable common lisp and can't seem to uncover why I can't use/find the "for" function. Can anyone enlighten me? 21:51:25 The for function where? 21:51:56 i don't think i misunderstood the syntax if that's it 21:52:01 like "for i in * ; do echo $i ; done" but in an (iterate:iter (for ...) lisp context 21:52:37 (do ((var init step) (var init step)) ((test)) blah) 21:52:42 organixpear: Do you have to use `iterate'? 21:52:56 organixpear: http://common-lisp.net/project/iterate/doc/Numerical-Iteration.html#Numerical-Iteration 21:52:59 not it's not absolutely neccessary 21:53:42 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 21:53:48 organixpear generally you would do something like this: (use-package :iterate). then (iter (for x in list) (print x)) 21:54:19 wbooze: yes, the step is the step. you have the step as the constant length of the string, which is wrong. and you have the working code example right there. 21:54:35 yes i know, however, when I enter a command like that ecl interpreter reports back that "for" is not defined. 21:54:45 -!- Obfuscate [~keii@unaffiliated/obfuscate] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 21:55:01 should be iter:for 21:55:16 Obfuscate [~keii@unaffiliated/obfuscate] has joined #lisp 21:56:14 organixpear you missed (use-package :iter) 21:57:49 organixpear: (loop for i from 1 to 10 by 20 do (print i)) 21:57:56 I would avoid dealing with packages. It took me a long time to get my head around some of it. 21:59:18 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:02:50 -!- sellout421 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:03:28 wbooze: you could use my stepper to see how a macro works, but you'd have to redefine it in a package that uses cl-stepper instead of cl, since macros use symbols interened in their definition package. But usually, it's enough to read the documentation of the macro to understand when and in which lexical scope each subform is executed. 22:03:41 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:48 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-92-50-98-52.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:05:05 Petit_Dejeuner [~andrew@108-203-203-37.lightspeed.mmphtn.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:23 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:35 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:06:20 loop for works 22:06:27 wonder what the deal is with iterate 22:06:50 you were told countless times! 22:06:57 -!- puchacz_ [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:07:00 you're using the wrong symbol! 22:07:03 I'm trying to follow along in an AI book, but I can't seem to get a proper matching function made. It's either not letting me use numberp as a function or I'm screwing something else up. Does anyone know what might be wrong with this? http://pastebin.com/MiPHPAAR 22:07:15 Error: APPLY: #'NUMBERP is not a function name; try using a symbol instead 22:07:23 Petit_Dejeuner: Is it PAIP? 22:07:30 PAIP? 22:07:32 Petit_Dejeuner: #'NUMBERP is a list, indeed 22:07:45 Petit_Dejeuner: The book, I mean. 22:07:59 Petit_Dejeuner: you need to get it evaluated, or use a symbol instead 22:08:07 didi, The Elements of Artificial Intelligence Using Lisp 22:08:12 Petit_Dejeuner: Oh, never mind. 22:08:25 kmee [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 22:08:35 stassats, Why won't apply work? Doesn't it take a symbol for its function? 22:08:38 Petit_Dejeuner: try (match '(1 2 3 (? numberp)) '(1 2 3 4)) 22:08:51 you're not giving it a symbol, you're giving it #'numberp, which is (function numberp), a list. 22:09:19 oh 22:09:23 and why is there (apply #'princ )? 22:09:32 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:36 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-235-111.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:11:49 or (use-package :com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.pmatch) (match '(1 2 3 (?x numberp)) '(1 2 3 4)) 22:12:20 ah no, pmatch doesn't seem to call a predicate. 22:16:06 jeti [~user@p548EB1A5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:47 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:20:49 thank you everyone for your help 22:20:59 I can now use iter and for 22:23:28 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 22:24:31 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has left #lisp 22:25:47 -!- jfe [~jfe@12.34.212.237] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:26:39 hmmmmmm 22:27:26 i don't get it with the constant-length thing of the variable you mention....i think i know what you mean just vaguely.... 22:28:41 wbooze: first iteration i is 0, next iteration it's (length string), and the next it's also (length string), and so on 22:28:57 why are you using DO if you can't grok it? 22:29:21 -!- lcc [~lcc-pi@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:30:41 i thought i had understood all, until the constant expression part! 22:30:49 hmmmmm 22:30:52 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:30:59 ignore that then 22:31:08 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 22:31:14 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 22:31:20 I meant "constant" because the length of the string isn't changing, I could have been more clear 22:31:24 you've used it correctly before that, and now you can't 22:32:11 var 0 (length var) hmmm 22:32:19 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:32:58 if var is length 5 it's (var 0 5) var init step so step is 5 o o 22:33:09 oO 22:33:11 lol 22:33:19 ok 22:33:19 can you stop saying "lol" all the time? 22:33:28 and hmmm 22:33:41 and ellipses? 22:33:56 ok i'll try 22:34:03 at least ellipses are in their own sentences 22:34:21 not in their own, that is 22:34:40 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 22:35:33 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 22:35:36 i confused the (var init step) with (var begin end) for a thing like a range() function 22:35:42 or so 22:36:29 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:00 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.21.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:37:37 helmetk_ [~textual@166.Red-88-15-120.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:38:09 that (char (char str 0) (char str idx)) was totally bogged, for at least two reasons then 22:38:32 i got what i wanted with just one var in (let ((str "hello")) (do ((idx 0 (1+ idx))) ((= idx (length str))) (princ (char str idx)))) 22:38:57 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:39:05 somewhere i've already seen this code 22:39:18 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.123.249.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:39:35 i seen it with and extra let in the do 22:40:05 mritz [~textual@cpe-66-25-166-122.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:40:50 14:11:01 (let ((str "hello")) (do ((idx 0 (1+ idx))) ((= idx (length str))) (princ (char str idx)))) 22:41:36 ah ok i was referring to pjb's then 22:41:59 i must have skimmed yours 22:42:30 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:42:34 ok one more thing to add to my notes then 22:42:39 thank you 22:44:17 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:45:11 -!- pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: http://www.redeclipse.net -- Fast-paced online FPS] 22:47:16 -!- DDDP is now known as DaDaDOSPrompt 22:51:39 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.134.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 22:51:51 -!- agumonkey [~agu@249.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:52:59 qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:54:21 -!- dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:55:50 -!- mritz [~textual@cpe-66-25-166-122.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:56:28 -!- francis [~user@c-50-136-242-14.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 22:57:46 mritz [~textual@cpe-66-25-166-122.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:59:04 dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has joined #lisp 22:59:07 -!- mritz [~textual@cpe-66-25-166-122.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:59:26 looking for a start-stop-sbcl script on redhat 23:02:59 lemoinem [~swoog@72.53.112.90] has joined #lisp 23:03:14 jeti: What do you mean? 23:04:07 -!- dmx [~dmx@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:05:00 -!- organixpear [602a0e80@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.42.14.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:05:49 dumb sysadmins ask me to provide a foolproof way to restart the server with my lisp webxerver 23:06:03 webserver 23:06:38 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:40 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 23:07:42 #!/usr/bin/sbcl --script\n(run-my-webserver) 23:07:49 It's the same as with any other program. 23:07:56 You can copy apache init file. 23:10:06 thx 23:11:15 Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:04 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:12:06 -!- Petit_Dejeuner [~andrew@108-203-203-37.lightspeed.mmphtn.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 23:12:21 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:13:57 -!- hagish_ [~hagish@p57BCFBD1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:14:04 harish [~harish@cm13.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 23:14:54 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:15:38 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 23:17:55 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 23:21:59 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:22:20 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 23:22:21 lcc [~lcc-pi@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 23:23:19 -!- lcc [~lcc-pi@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Client Quit] 23:24:08 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:25:17 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 23:27:04 -!- steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-zkipdwkpohgctlwf] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 23:27:32 superflit [~superflit@65-128-36-225.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:07 *didi* <3 alist 23:29:31 guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:46 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:49 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:32:00 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-140-86.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:35:03 -!- dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:36:25 pskosinski [~pk@public-gprs397364.centertel.pl] has joined #lisp 23:36:45 qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 23:40:27 vlion [~vlion@68-24-131-29.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:57 Hiya- looking at abcl and drakma with openjdk; getting an error related to not finding a com.sun.jna class. Does abcl not work with openjdk? 23:42:18 vlion: it does work 23:42:23 vlion: just can't load cffi 23:42:37 do (push :drakma-no-ssl *features*) 23:42:41 before loading drakma 23:42:52 A'ight. Thanks. :) 23:42:54 -!- Obfuscate [~keii@unaffiliated/obfuscate] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 23:42:54 and you need a fairly recent svn version of abcl to get drakma working 23:43:20 Later than the latest release? 23:43:25 Obfuscate [~keii@unaffiliated/obfuscate] has joined #lisp 23:43:38 yes, that's what i just implied 23:44:16 Just making sure. Thanks. 23:44:40 vlion: if you have ant, building ABCL is just invoking "ant". 5 minutes and it's done 23:45:16 5 minutes? here's a dime, buy yourself a real compute! 23:45:35 -!- punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Quit: punee] 23:46:16 stassats: appox, I don't want to give vlion unnecessary hight expectations 23:46:25 stassats: how long it takes on your computer? 23:46:42 Yay, now I have signals and events working. Also, I can run my code many times (I don't know how many) in the same Lisp session without crashing it. And I've learned that `defcallback' is permissive with the lambda list, but I _will_ pay the price later. Such is the "wonders" of FFI. 23:47:01 vlion: if you don't have ant but have maven - the same, just call "mvn package" 23:48:07 antonv: 2 minutes 23:48:36 vlion: sorry, mavent is not supported, only ant 23:48:52 My ever-useless work firewall won't let svn checkouts. Ah well. Don't worry about, it was an experiment. :) 23:49:02 -!- pskosinski [~pk@public-gprs397364.centertel.pl] has quit [Quit: http://www.redeclipse.net -- Fast-paced online FPS] 23:49:08 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:49:35 dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has joined #lisp 23:49:35 -!- dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:52:27 -!- Daisy [Daisy@host-95-206-48-89.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:53:19 dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has joined #lisp 23:53:19 -!- dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:54:16 stassats: is it laptop or stationary box? 23:54:49 antonv: a desktop, it's 2:12 on the laptop 23:54:51 -!- papajustify [~slugged@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: 'bye.] 23:54:56 Just to note, CFFI's manual is _very_ good. The examples were well thought. Many times you want to do something and the manual give it as an example somewhere. 23:55:14 and it's not the latest and greatest, so it could be even faster 23:55:18 2:12? 23:55:41 what can be possible not clear about 2:12? 23:56:25 not clear at all for me, would you mind rephrase? 23:56:34 2 minutes 12 seconds 23:57:51 ah, 2 minutes 12 seconds on the laptop? a good one, with SSD drive? 23:58:06 it's a good property of ABCL is that it's easy to build 23:58:20 ECL is also easy to build 23:58:22 no, with a hard disk drive 23:58:55 some other lisps require you to download and instals some libraries, ECL has everything necessary in the repository 23:59:14 abcl requires me to install a boatload of java crap 23:59:24 a, yes