00:00:42 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:01:53 arthurmaciel [~user@201.52.207.96] has joined #lisp 00:01:59 hello 00:02:33 is there a way to send and receive webservices messages with lisp? 00:03:00 arthurmaciel: i use common lisp to interact with several web services, like flickr and amazon s3. i use drakma, mostly, to do it. 00:03:11 drakma, closure xml, and ironclad, for starters 00:04:13 drakma is pretty feature complete for a client. SSL support, iirc, might need some looking (things like authorization by certificate etc.) 00:06:01 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-143-213.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:07:43 -!- sellout [~Adium@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:08:35 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-220-48.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 00:10:35 Xach: I'm quite new to webservices so do you recommend something to read about them? 00:10:47 and thanks for the tips (also thanks to p_l|abdn 00:11:31 sellout42 [~Adium@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:55 arthurmaciel: pick a web service you want to use, read the developer docs. 00:12:16 arthurmaciel: if the web service is already supported by a lisp library, read the library source and docs 00:12:58 arthurmaciel: hopefully the web service you want to use is not documented with something like "download our java client library thingy and call its functions" 00:13:00 arthurmaciel: theres an O'Reilly book about restful web services, don't know how good it is though 00:14:47 syamajala [~syamajala@68-116-188-122.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:15:57 -!- dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:16:22 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 00:16:55 clintm [~cmoore@131.191.81.250] has joined #lisp 00:17:13 Xach: that's _exactly_ what the docs of the web service I want to use say. And it provides a link to a server that is off. Geez... 00:17:39 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:17:43 Xach: and I want to use lisp or scheme to talk to this web service. Is it too impossible? 00:18:10 <|3b|> worst case, you can use a lisp or scheme that knows how to talk to java libs 00:18:42 -!- pspace [~andrew@li450-44.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:19:27 arthurmaciel: it might be a hassle. but sometimes even services that are meant to be used from java have docs about how to do it at a lower level. 00:19:51 arthurmaciel: possibilities include ABCL, kawa scheme, clojure in the java case. 00:20:01 arthurmaciel: for example, fedex's web api has PHP and Java client library code, but it also provides enough information to do SOAP calls from any language. 00:20:22 arthurmaciel: otherwise, if no docs, you are left with reverse engineering the protocol 00:20:40 arthurmaciel: is it a public service? if so, what is it? 00:21:55 -!- Ralith [~ralith@67.101.126.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:22:23 just a minute, I'll try to find an usable link 00:24:17 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 00:26:02 dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has joined #lisp 00:27:26 http://hspdm.saude.prefeitura.sp.gov.br:8080/smsservices/services/UsuarioService?wsdl 00:27:29 ltaoist1 [~mo@221.172.71.113] has joined #lisp 00:28:05 in an ideal world, this link should provide the java client lib to be used with Axis2 (apache). 00:28:14 -!- johandeck [~user@d83-183-51-82.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:28:27 it is a government site that provides unified patient record in the city I live in 00:28:58 not only records, but also the possibility to add, edit and remove appointments. 00:29:03 -!- ltaoist1 [~mo@221.172.71.113] has quit [Client Quit] 00:29:13 Trollinator [~matthias@lpzg-4dbdd5e0.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 00:30:30 arthurmaciel: i get URL not found error on that URL 00:31:36 <|3b|> timed out for me, but 'wsdl' suggests it might have at least a machine readable description of the api 00:31:51 DataLinkDroid: me too. That's why I said 'in an ideal world'. And the local government IT manager sent me the docs that present that link. Can you believe it? 00:32:21 arthurmaciel: yes :) 00:32:29 -!- Trollinator [~matthias@lpzg-4dbdd5e0.pool.mediaWays.net] has left #lisp 00:34:23 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:34:32 I imagine it wouldn't take more than 2 days for me to get it working... silly me. 00:35:13 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129077157.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 00:35:55 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:36:11 |3b|: there are docs (in portuguese) specifying the complex data types used and the web services operations I can call. What I don't understand is how I can create an intelligible message that the HTTP can answer to. 00:36:29 I need to learn the basics and probably try to create and use an web service myself 00:36:49 ISF [~ivan@187.106.36.138] has joined #lisp 00:37:43 arthurmaciel: if the docs are online, google translate might be sufficient for someone here to get you started 00:38:38 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.204.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:40:58 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:43:19 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 00:43:57 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@108.60.121.114] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:45:38 -!- vaus [~vaus@180.Red-83-61-39.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: vaus] 00:45:55 arthurmaciel: you might consider picking a simple documented public web service and learning from that 00:46:13 any recommendations for such a service that is easy to use from Lisp? 00:46:24 kwmiebach [kwmiebach@37-188-126-213.static.cloud-ips.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:46:26 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 00:46:54 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:47:15 mindCrime [~prhodes@c-67-162-98-95.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:06 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-99-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:48:20 DataLinkDroid: all the services are easy to use from lisp: you just write an abstraction layer over the trick details, so that you have an easy to use lisp API. 00:49:37 piece of cake! 00:49:39 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-19-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 00:49:45 pjb: we're taking web service newbie, so a pre-existing Lisp interface might be nice 00:50:03 taking = talking 00:50:06 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:50:19 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-19-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:27 DataLinkDroid: there are libraries to make http requests, you've been given the pointers. 00:50:44 DataLinkDroid: the easiest is probably a RESTfull protocol, which you can use with DRAKMA 00:51:01 i have something for SPARQL queries laying around, but i have to somehow figure out the licensing 00:51:26 guys, this is not for me... 00:52:05 -!- mindCrime [~prhodes@c-67-162-98-95.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:52:19 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-99-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:54:15 slime-fuzzy-completion seems to get the score rights. Obviously, variables in scope should have higher scores than shorter and unrelated symbols! 00:54:36 tensorpudding_ [~michael@108.87.21.34] has joined #lisp 00:56:15 does sbcl offer a way to control buffering of streams? I am spending 40% of my time in unix-wrote 00:56:19 *unix-write 00:58:01 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.23.124.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:02:45 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@108.60.121.114] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 01:03:08 DataLinkDroid: I'm trying to show the content to you. 01:04:52 just a minute please 01:06:16 mindCrime [~prhodes@c-67-162-98-95.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:28 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-098-024-165-246.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:08:59 jasom: try: (apropos "STREAM-BUFFER") ; but it doesn't seem to be documented. Ask on the sbcl maillinglist. 01:10:54 -!- mindCrime [~prhodes@c-67-162-98-95.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:11:04 pjb: I totally gave up on doing anything even remotely documented and just made a new fd-stream 01:11:32 shaved 80% off of the "system" time executed 01:12:15 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:13:25 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-19-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 01:14:21 PaulHarris [~smoothop@cor.ms] has joined #lisp 01:14:46 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 01:14:55 -!- smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:16:20 ebobby [~fms@70-36-138-190.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:59 ipmonger [~ipmonger@c-68-63-82-226.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:21:21 pjb: you didn't comment on the B+ tre code I posted in the newsgroup, you usually give pretty good advice. 01:21:22 ebobby, memo from pjb: have a look at: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.ruby/msg/56fce4adeaa79f68?hl=en 01:21:28 wtf. 01:21:50 that was awesome timing. 01:22:57 mindCrime [~prhodes@c-67-162-98-95.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:59 jasom: I wonder how using vectored I/O would go with such situations 01:27:18 DataLinkDroid: http://paste.lisp.org/display/130951 01:27:39 -!- mindCrime [~prhodes@c-67-162-98-95.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:27:41 I know it is not too informative, but that's all I got. Other data types are described alike. 01:28:35 Kron_ [~Kron@59.92.142.46] has joined #lisp 01:29:59 tritchey [~tritchey@ip-64-134-226-163.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:10 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-37-21-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:32 mindCrime [~prhodes@c-67-162-98-95.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:36 -!- clintm [~cmoore@131.191.81.250] has quit [Quit: clintm] 01:34:45 arthurmaciel: if that's the only kind of information you have, it won't be enough. it seems to assume that the java libs will handle the details. 01:35:02 Phoodus [~foo@ip68-98-92-29.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:35:27 -!- mirTapir [vutral@thinkbase.srv.welterde.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:35:34 mirTapir [vutral@thinkbase.srv.welterde.de] has joined #lisp 01:35:56 I'm getting a slime error on connecting to a remote machine: Can't locate module: SWANK-IO-PACKAGE::SWANK-PACKAGE-FU 01:36:15 there's only 1 hit on google for that, and the guy had some permission error, which I don't seem to have 01:36:28 now, this is well-used code, with lots of remotely sliming in to do things 01:36:32 ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has joined #lisp 01:36:35 Ralith [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 01:36:52 but I'm thinking that since I've added more debug info, slime needs to pull in contribs it never needed to before 01:37:11 I added this to the toplevel of my main file, to no avail: (swank:swank-require :swank-package-fu) 01:37:24 (that would get compiled before building the image, which is remotely deployed) 01:37:29 any other suggestions? 01:38:07 DataLinkDroid: that's sad. I have already sent an email to the IT developer and see what he says. Anyway I believe I could implement all those java libs details using lisp or scheme, as the underpining language used is XML, right? 01:38:24 I believe the only thing I need to to generate messages The Right Way. 01:38:40 arthurmaciel: that's the problem: it doesn't say 01:39:01 is it GET or POST REST service, SOAP, XML_RPC? who knows? 01:39:06 <|3b|> arthurmaciel: 'web service' isn't really enough information to say anything about how it works 01:39:36 <|3b|> 'wsdl' in that url earlier, and some random googling suggests you want SOAP 01:39:58 so there is CL-SOAP for that i believe 01:40:14 but the particular protocol needs to be documented 01:40:25 ie. what to call when with what info 01:41:07 loke_erc [~user@c-1756e555.012-14-67626717.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 01:41:23 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:41:26 *|3b|* would probably start by trying to use the java lib from abcl or something, to make sure it is all working in the first place 01:41:50 <|3b|> if that works, at least you have something you can compare network capture with :) 01:42:00 *DataLinkDroid* thinks that could be a good idea 01:42:28 *arthurmaciel* agrees, but is waiting for a correct link from the IT developer... 01:42:57 Indeed I'll try with java itself in the first place. If everything works I'll move step by step into freedom. 01:43:26 *arthurmaciel* loves ideological words in sentences like that. 01:43:41 thank you, guys! It was quite helpful to talk to you. 01:43:44 good night 01:43:49 -!- arthurmaciel [~user@201.52.207.96] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:46:06 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip68-98-92-29.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:46:14 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@ip-64-134-226-163.public.wayport.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 01:46:56 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 01:56:33 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 01:59:50 ebobby: otherwise I don't see any url to b+ tree code from you here. 02:02:50 Phoodus [~foo@ip68-98-92-29.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:54 okay, I've been reading through the slime source code, added this, and still no change: (swank-loader:init :load-contribs t) 02:03:11 pnathan` [~user@75.87.250.229] has joined #lisp 02:03:30 What & where is the expectation for code to include the slime contribs in the built image? 02:04:03 (and sorry if I missed any responses; the client doesn't show as disconnected until I type something) 02:05:33 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip68-98-92-29.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:06:03 _travis_ [~nonya@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:07:22 -!- ASau [~user@95-26-148-61.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:09:36 pjb: https://github.com/ebobby/cl-bplustree/blob/master/bplustree.lisp 02:11:50 gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has joined #lisp 02:13:22 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:14:13 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 02:17:47 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:19:14 springz [~springz@116.231.101.186] has joined #lisp 02:21:07 -!- pnathan` [~user@75.87.250.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:22:01 -!- paradoja [~paradoja@acceso-cmp174-200.lpa.idec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:22:44 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.106.36.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:22:49 Phoodus [~foo@ip68-98-92-29.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:22:58 I print out *modules* at the beginning of the image's execution, and it shows SWANK-PACKAGE-FU included, but then still gives that error about it not found on connect 02:23:31 -!- CampinSam [~user@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:26:09 tonussi [~lucaspt@189.101.225.182] has joined #lisp 02:26:48 CampinSam [~user@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:27:06 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:28:25 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129077157.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:28:58 Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:04 Codynyx_ [~cody@c-75-72-25-106.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:39 Ray_ [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has joined #lisp 02:33:39 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip68-98-92-29.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:33:47 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-28-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:34:23 -!- Ray_ is now known as rtoymb 02:39:24 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 02:43:13 -!- springz [~springz@116.231.101.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:49:58 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:51:31 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:54:39 wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-74-66-8-7.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:54:53 mritz_ [~textual@cpe-70-112-3-176.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:56:06 springz [~springz@216.24.205.54] has joined #lisp 02:57:47 -!- ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has left #lisp 03:03:53 -!- benny [~user@i577A87BD.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:04:03 -!- _travis_ [~nonya@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 03:04:58 disciple [~krishna@117.221.132.198] has joined #lisp 03:05:43 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 03:05:47 happydpc [~happydpc@2001:da8:208:3179:90a5:26af:40de:34c4] has joined #lisp 03:06:35 -!- ipmonger [~ipmonger@c-68-63-82-226.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ipmonger] 03:06:49 ebobby: setter functions are totally useless. Just use (setf (accessor-function object) new-value). 03:08:12 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-198-46.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:08:16 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.51.76] has joined #lisp 03:08:17 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.51.76] has quit [Changing host] 03:08:17 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 03:09:48 -!- anon119 [~bman@12.104.144.2] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:10:05 ebobby: (incf (b+tree-node-size node)) instead of writing/generating a ton of code and (bplustree-node-size-inc node). 03:10:34 -!- tensorpudding_ [~michael@108.87.21.34] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:10:40 tensorpudding__ [~michael@108.87.18.211] has joined #lisp 03:12:40 -!- kanedank [~user@pool-72-74-50-53.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:13:18 Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483A947.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:24 Forty-3 [~seana11@75-145-119-42-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:29 minion: memo for Phoodus: The contents of *MODULES* just means that PROVIDE has been called. 03:13:30 Remembered. I'll tell Phoodus when he/she/it next speaks. 03:14:07 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-74-66-8-7.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 03:15:01 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483A9F2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:16:01 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-198-46.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:16:25 pjb: was trying to keep access centralized because I changed data structures 03:17:09 -!- PaulHarris [~smoothop@cor.ms] has left #lisp 03:17:13 entrix [~entrix@37-144-150-101.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 03:31:06 Vicfred [~Grothendi@189.143.130.110] has joined #lisp 03:32:32  03:35:27 -!- entrix [~entrix@37-144-150-101.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:39:09 -!- mritz_ [~textual@cpe-70-112-3-176.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 03:40:04 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.142.166.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:41:49 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:44:18 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:44:31 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:50:51 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.197.182] has joined #lisp 03:53:34 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:53:44 joshe [~joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 03:54:06 phd1969 [~pduch@CPE0023bee11ddb-CM0023bee11dd8.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:54:13 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:54:30 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:54:50 Can anyone help me with the following: http://pastie.org/4447577. It's from MIT 6.001 Online tutor 03:55:10 My guess is "number->boolean",number->number but that seems to be wrong 03:55:49 phd1969: ask #scheme 03:56:21 real-hitecnology [~hitecnolo@46.233.215.227] has joined #lisp 03:56:34 pkhuong: already did but no one seems to be around 03:56:50 start with the type of each argument. 03:57:02 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.197.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:57:03 *|3b|* would say start with the number of arguments :p 03:58:05 *|3b|* doesn't know how they want you to indicate multiple arguments though 03:58:25 phd1969: ah, I think I see your problem. Lispers (and schemers) group things with parentheses and separate them with spaces, not quotes and commas. 03:59:03 From what I understand test takes too arguments, the first one is a procedure and the second one is just a number 03:59:09 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.154.137.175] has quit [Quit: Bye] 03:59:25 <|3b|> sounds reasonable 03:59:48 <|3b|> (less reasonable when read though, since too doesn't look like two) 04:00:02 yeah, it's just how MIT has the website set up 04:00:26 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:00:52 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-189-184.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:02:26 pnathan` [~user@75.87.250.229] has joined #lisp 04:04:04 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 04:04:59 -!- mindCrime [~prhodes@c-67-162-98-95.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:05:18 mindCrime [~prhodes@c-67-162-98-95.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:02 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:10:44 -!- tensorpudding__ is now known as tensorpudding 04:12:00 phd1969: nobody around? So you're asking under the lampost? 04:12:11 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@108.87.18.211] has quit [Quit: tensorpudding] 04:12:25 tensorpudding [~michael@108.87.18.211] has joined #lisp 04:14:51 phd1969: unless your course gives more information about the notation they want you to use, the usual -> notation for function types in functional programming languages involves currying for multi-argument functions. It's somewhat nonsensical to use it to give the type of scheme procedures. 04:15:08 phd1969: test would be of type number->boolean->integer->integer 04:15:54 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@68-116-188-122.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:15:54 But since there's no currying in scheme, the associativity of -> is lost. It's really more something like: ((number->boolean)->integer)->integer 04:16:41 pjb: The whole question is at the top of the paste, that's all that is given 04:16:56 And that's my answer. 04:17:35 pjb: And yes that was my initial answer but it doesn't seem to accept it so I'm guessing the website is wrong 04:17:55 anon119 [~bman@c-98-238-210-132.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:00 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:20:34 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 04:20:38 tritchey [~tritchey@ip-64-134-226-163.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:27 -!- phd1969 [~pduch@CPE0023bee11ddb-CM0023bee11dd8.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: phd1969] 04:25:13 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-098-024-165-246.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: statonjr] 04:28:32 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:31:21 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:35:49 -!- harish [~harish@cm108.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:37:53 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.154.137.175] has joined #lisp 04:43:42 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 04:48:20 Kuloto [~mro@82.24.pool.kuban.skylink.ru] has joined #lisp 04:49:18 replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 04:49:34 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@59.92.142.46] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 04:50:13 -!- sysfault [~exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:53:15 -!- agumonkey [~agu@191.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:55:37 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 04:56:57 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 04:57:13 -!- chenbing [~user@58.247.23.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:57:56 -!- loke_erc [~user@c-1756e555.012-14-67626717.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:59:08 -!- tic [~tic@c83-248-165-159.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:00:30 smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:46 permagreen [~donovan@204-195-27-175.wavecable.com] has joined #lisp 05:05:04 -!- springz [~springz@216.24.205.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:06:03 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-37-21-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 05:07:05 -!- _3b [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:07:19 -!- |3b| [foobar@72.179.19.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:09:10 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 05:10:05 pjb: I was thinking of adding another struct (or class probably later on) bplustree to wrap the actual tree, so you dont have to SETF the tree every time you call insert/delete in the B+ tree 05:10:22 would that be very "unlispy" ? 05:10:25 k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 05:12:07 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:12:45 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.52.168] has joined #lisp 05:12:45 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.52.168] has quit [Changing host] 05:12:45 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 05:13:50 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:14:09 PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 05:17:37 |3b| [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:17:43 z1l0g [~jgw@216.99.214.24] has joined #lisp 05:17:50 hola 05:19:31 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-37-21-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:14 trying to wrap a long string printed to stdout; is there a simple way to wrap at, say, <= col 80 if char = #\space ? 05:21:15 I would just pipe it to the fmt(1) command if I knew how ;) 05:22:02 springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has joined #lisp 05:23:28 I think the format operation ~< can do that 05:24:17 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 05:24:27 z1l0g: how about splitting into individual words and using cl:format? 05:27:06 -!- gilez [~gdmalet@tux.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:27:14 _3b [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:28:04 well, I'm a newbie and haven't learned how to use external packages yet ;) 05:29:57 what I've done so far is put a two-part conditional - col >= threshold & char(i) = #\space ; if T I do a fresh-print 05:30:34 works but it seem clunky for what I want to accomplish 05:31:01 -!- Kuloto [~mro@82.24.pool.kuban.skylink.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:31:09 z1l0g: do you use quicklisp to load packages? 05:31:19 freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has joined #lisp 05:31:38 no but that's is on my list of Lisp stuff to explore 05:32:40 z1l0g: http://cybertiggyr.com/fmt/fmt.html#SECTION00060000000000000000 05:33:15 -!- mindCrime [~prhodes@c-67-162-98-95.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:34:25 z1l0g: granted, the recipe does not work on one long string, but on a list of strings. 05:34:44 mindCrime_ [~prhodes@c-67-162-98-95.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:34:53 z1l0g: i would use cl-ppcre to split the string and then use that recipe 05:35:19 (cl-ppcre:split "\\s" "This is a really long string") 05:35:22 DataLinkDroid: i would avoid creating the long string in the first plavce 05:35:24 place 05:35:31 need to load cl-ppcre of course 05:35:53 H4ns: how do you know where the string is coming from? 05:36:06 z1l0g: quicklisp is basically the way to use external libraries. 05:36:11 DataLinkDroid: did i claim i know? 05:36:12 there's a ton of really good ones 05:36:36 H4ns: yes, since creating it yourself is the only way to avoid creating it 05:36:42 Kuloto [~mro@82.24.pool.kuban.skylink.ru] has joined #lisp 05:36:56 -!- Kuloto [~mro@82.24.pool.kuban.skylink.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 05:37:02 -!- permagreen [~donovan@204-195-27-175.wavecable.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:37:28 DataLinkDroid: you misinterpreted me. 05:38:07 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:38:28 well, the long strings are the cdr of the entries in a big alist 05:39:08 probably real programmers would be using a DB for this ;) 05:39:46 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 05:39:47 z1l0g: or XML lol 05:41:00 -!- ramus [~ramus@c-50-132-91-53.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:41:19 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:42:09 heh, right 05:42:32 *z1l0g* grows weary 05:42:36 -!- z1l0g [~jgw@216.99.214.24] has quit [Quit: That's it for today] 05:43:16 ramus [~ramus@c-50-132-91-53.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:19 -!- Forty-3 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07:09:44 -!- replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:15:15 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 07:22:25 -!- smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:24:22 lolsuper_ [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 07:24:34 -!- lolsuper_ is now known as veer 07:24:40 -!- veer is now known as veeer 07:25:38 -!- veeer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has left #lisp 07:32:22 mskou [~mskou@0x50a277b6.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1109.rdnqu2.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:33:15 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-198-46.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:34:53 i'm calling a function which have 2 restart-cases defined. how do i call the function and define which restart i would like it to make (to avoid entering the debugger/repl)? 07:35:49 mskou: you handler-bind a condition handler around the function call that invokes the restart you want when it gets that condition 07:35:52 Rajesh [~Rajesh@117.203.8.174] has joined #lisp 07:36:13 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-42-76.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:36:16 -!- Rajesh is now known as Guest75996 07:36:57 antifuchs: tried it but i still have to manually choose the restart first... 07:37:29 that sounds like the handler doesn't get invoked. can you paste the code to http://paste.lisp.org? 07:37:49 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:39:55 the code is here http://paste.lisp.org/+2T1M 07:40:39 jjkola_work [c064782a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.120.42] has joined #lisp 07:42:31 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:42:48 Mezon_ [67f732b1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.103.247.50.177] has joined #lisp 07:42:49 -!- Guest75996 [~Rajesh@117.203.8.174] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:43:26 -!- Mezon_ [67f732b1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.103.247.50.177] has quit [Client Quit] 07:44:05 undernet [~bossu_20@79.117.217.171] has joined #lisp 07:45:21 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.33.193] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 07:46:22 -!- undernet [~bossu_20@79.117.217.171] has quit [Client Quit] 07:48:31 agumonkey [~agu@191.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 07:53:24 antifuchs: the handler does get invoked, but it still enters the debugger afterward 07:56:18 ehu [~ehuels@31.138.202.91] has joined #lisp 07:57:51 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 07:59:01 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 08:00:20 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 08:05:27 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:06:13 [6502] [58959a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.154.87] has joined #lisp 08:07:12 <[6502]> why do keywords have a colon at beginning instead of at end? Wouldn't that make them nicer? 08:08:45 <[6502]> (create-window width: 400 height: 200 title: "This is a test") 08:08:56 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:09:01 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.113.237] has joined #lisp 08:13:22 6502: I'm not sure on this but I think it is because of packages, so symbol BAR in the FOO package is FOO:BAR (or FOO::BAR if not exported) and symbol BAR in the keyword package is :BAR. 08:13:55 that said, they do look nice in your example :-) 08:14:42 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@59.92.142.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:14:49 :foo is just a shorthand for keyword:foo, the keyword package being special 08:17:10 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.52.168] has joined #lisp 08:17:10 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.52.168] has quit [Changing host] 08:17:10 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:17:58 -!- ebobby [~fms@70-36-138-190.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 08:19:17 [6502]: keywords are not restricted to be used for naming function arguments. when they're representing enumeration values, for examples, the trailing-dot notation is less compelling i think. 08:19:54 -!- ehu [~ehuels@31.138.202.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:21:35 punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 08:22:48 <[6502]> H4ns: very good point, even thought I often see regular symbols for other uses 08:23:51 <[6502]> H4ns: probably this is also related to having CL case-insensitive... in other languages enumerations or constants are just all-caps names 08:24:17 [6502]: cl is not case insensitive 08:24:45 <[6502]> H4ns: I'm pretty sure you understood what i mean :-) 08:25:19 [6502]: but cl is full of historical baggage that confuses people or leaves them scratching their heads wondering why things are as they are. :) 08:27:33 <[6502]> H4ns: Yeah... and the sad part is that there is no way that CL can get better and drop some of that baggage. CL is stable and biologists have a nice name for stability... it's called "death". 08:27:58 some of them have even been lost. default readbase in maclisp was 8, not 10 08:28:11 that must have been a nice wtf for beginners 08:28:12 [6502]: i don't agree at all. cl is just not very amendable for young programmers who want to be language designers. 08:28:59 ehu [~ehuels@31.138.202.91] has joined #lisp 08:29:00 <[6502]> H4ns: Yeah... i know the position "CL is just perfect and nothing needs or will ever-ever need to be changed. amen" 08:29:12 [6502]: that is not my position. 08:30:51 [6502]: the matter of the fact is that cl is a standardized language and sadly, there is not enough commercial interest to change or extend it in the same way that it was created 08:31:03 josemanuel [~josemanue@233.209.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 08:31:04 <[6502]> mal__: actually it's a WTF in languages where "020" is read as octal. For example some analyzer issues a warning in javascript if you call parseInt without providing a base... 08:33:21 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.234.190] has joined #lisp 08:34:01 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 08:36:01 Rajesh [~Rajesh@117.203.8.174] has joined #lisp 08:36:20 -!- Rajesh [~Rajesh@117.203.8.174] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 08:40:07 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-189-184.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:41:57 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-146.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:42:43 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-190-97.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:43:31 [6502]: I know. that's a C heritage. still having a programming language where by default 14 was (decimal) 12 was weird. 08:55:01 jollyg [~dr@93-138-23-1.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 08:55:42 revhwar [~revhwar@117.203.8.174] has joined #lisp 08:55:44 [6502] CL is one of the few languages that can evolve without the changes to the language core 08:56:36 CLOS for example could have been implemented as a library 08:56:42 kennyd: that is not true. the language cannot evolve (that is, the standard is the standard and it currently seems unlikely that it is changed). the user can change the language, though. 08:57:00 -!- jollyg [~dr@93-138-23-1.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Client Quit] 08:57:14 that's what I meant 08:58:39 most languages aren't flexible enough to be changed by the user. at least not to the same extent as CL 08:59:16 erebos [~ereb@31.45.146.172] has joined #lisp 09:01:06 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 09:01:48 Hi 09:02:15 what's the difference between (defun add (a b) (+ a b)) and (defmacro add (a b) (+ a b)) ? i'm getting same result 09:02:59 <_death> (let ((x 42)) (add x x)) 09:03:14 iocor [~textual@164.11.141.5] has joined #lisp 09:03:24 -!- iocor [~textual@164.11.141.5] has quit [Changing host] 09:03:24 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 09:03:26 The macro is a little compiler. 09:03:45 -!- _death is now known as adeht 09:03:52 eval first, quote second is the macro way 09:04:00 In your case, it compiles (add x x) to the result of (+ x x) 09:04:21 erebos: read a book. 09:04:23 Which happens to be what you expect, for some reason, even though it's a completely different x. 09:04:23 why did _death code give me error 09:04:54 Probably because his code only works for him by accident. 09:06:05 erebos: the arguments to the function add would be 42 and 42.. while the arguments to the macro (when the form is expanded) would be X and X.. the macro would try to sum two symbols 09:06:36 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.182.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 09:07:02 -!- revhwar [~revhwar@117.203.8.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:08:24 So when do you use a macro 09:08:24 saschakb [~skbierm@gateway/tor-sasl/saschakb] has joined #lisp 09:08:44 erebos: you should follow H4ns's advice 09:09:21 I am reading, i Just Like to test things out 09:09:46 erebos: you use a macro when a function does not do what you want. a function is always invoked after its arguments have been evaluated, whereas a macro can control when the arguments are evaluated. 09:10:08 I figured macro version of add would Just avoid function call overhead 09:10:24 erebos: for that you can declare the function inline 09:13:20 stlifey [~stlifey@183.46.13.227] has joined #lisp 09:13:37 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:16:03 ok 09:17:56 -!- erebos [~ereb@31.45.146.172] has quit [Quit: quit] 09:18:05 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-190-97.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: none] 09:20:58 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-190-97.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:22:08 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-190-97.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:26:34 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 09:30:30 -!- Kvaks [~quassel@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:32:01 Kvaks [~quassel@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 09:33:07 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:35:27 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 09:38:03 slilo [~user@80.89.154.142] has joined #lisp 09:38:16 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-220-48.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:42:44 mindCrime__ [~prhodes@c-67-162-98-95.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:43:06 -!- mindCrime_ [~prhodes@c-67-162-98-95.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:46:21 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:46:56 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:47:30 antonv [2e35c344@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.68] has joined #lisp 09:49:28 erebos [~ereb@31.45.146.172] has joined #lisp 09:51:30 would (defmacro add (a b) (list '+ a b)) be pretty much the same as C++'s #define add(a, b) ((a) + (b)) ? 09:51:57 erebos: it depends on what you mean by "pretty much the same" 09:52:19 erebos: Yes. 09:52:42 erebos: the c preprocessor operates on text, whereas cl macros operate on parsed s-expressions, so there are significant differences. 09:55:45 But the result is the same 09:56:35 "pretty much" 09:57:55 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:59:03 What can you do with defmacro that you cant with #define? In practice 09:59:33 erebos: can you now turn to your book, please? 10:00:33 I like to learn through interaction with fellow lispers 10:01:37 and im reading the book, but id probably have to read it whole to answer that question 10:01:58 life's hard. 10:03:16 add^_ [~add^_@m90-131-122-178.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 10:04:31 I have seen defmacro snippets a while ago that generate functions. But i can do that with #define too 10:04:37 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-098-024-165-246.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:10:42 try write a recursive macro 10:11:42 -!- tonussi [~lucaspt@189.101.225.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:13:03 You cant in C++. Not sure where you would want that in practice? 10:13:21 erebos: short answer: you can do everything with cl macros (to be more precise: any transformation on the program that is passed to the macro that is decidable on a turing machine, can be performed), whereas the things possible with the C preprocessor are extremely limited (basically, you can do next to nothing) 10:13:52 -!- mindCrime__ [~prhodes@c-67-162-98-95.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:14:05 mindCrime__ [~prhodes@c-67-162-98-95.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:14:40 -!- Vicfred [~Grothendi@189.143.130.110] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:14:47 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 10:18:19 sytse can you give me an example? Im trying to understand their power and what things you can do with them 10:18:44 Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 10:22:59 erebos: for example, you could rewrite your 'add' function to instead turn reverse polish notation into a working program 10:23:47 -!- springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 10:24:03 -!- erebos [~ereb@31.45.146.172] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:24:21 erebos [~ereb@31.45.146.172] has joined #lisp 10:24:33 erebos: just wrote it, actually (would need error handling, but for valid programs, it works) 10:24:42 sytse: yeah I see 10:24:48 can you paste 10:25:30 http://paste.lisp.org/+2T1R 10:25:59 could be extended to evaluate anything with only static numbers at macro evaluation time 10:27:28 (macroexpand '(rp-eval a b c + *)) ==> (* (+ C B) A) :-) 10:28:11 tonussi [~lucaspt@189.101.225.182] has joined #lisp 10:28:24 ah nice you can see what it expands too 10:29:21 Kuloto [~mro@20.22.pool.kuban.skylink.ru] has joined #lisp 10:31:20 hell, you could write a macro that takes a C++ program as a string, write a complete C++ to lisp compiler in macros, and have it return the main function as a lisp program 10:31:55 oh, you don't need to limit that to macros of course, my bad.. you can use functions in a macro 10:32:25 (which then get executed at evlaalueation time) 10:32:46 whoops 10:34:11 i am trying to understand your macro. what do you get by pushing to stavak? 10:34:20 to stack 10:35:38 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.1.2] 10:36:06 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-190-97.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:39:20 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 10:43:18 pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 10:44:19 you loop through tokens, push lisp code to it. And that is what macro expands to? 10:44:31 push code to stack 10:45:15 it's how RPN is evaluated. 10:45:46 see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_Polish_notation and look for the word 'stack' 10:46:52 try executing http://paste.lisp.org/+2T1R/1 10:47:51 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 10:47:59 I know how polish notation works. Just got confused by the code 10:48:41 Kuloto1 [~mro@20.22.pool.kuban.skylink.ru] has joined #lisp 10:48:50 -!- Kuloto [~mro@20.22.pool.kuban.skylink.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:49:05 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-190-97.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:49:06 yes, I push code to stack 10:49:27 pop it off when operators demand it 10:49:39 and at the end the stack contains just one item: the final lisp code 10:50:48 which is then returned 10:50:49 Why dont you return result? 10:51:59 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 10:54:15 Anyway thanks for the code I will play with it 10:54:32 vaus [~vaus@180.Red-83-61-39.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:56:14 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-190-229.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:56:55 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 10:57:54 -!- [6502] [58959a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.154.87] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:58:33 -!- erebos [~ereb@31.45.146.172] has quit [Quit: quit] 10:58:52 -!- jjkola_work [c064782a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.120.42] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:00:22 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 11:02:27 disciple [~krishna@117.201.20.15] has joined #lisp 11:07:22 MoALTz [~no@92.2.120.0] has joined #lisp 11:07:54 abeaumont [~Alfredo@138.Red-79-157-152.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:12:18 Hello, I am learning macros. What's wrong with my code? http://paste.lisp.org/+2T1S 11:12:56 Kuloto1: you want a progn 11:13:20 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:15:51 -!- slilo [~user@80.89.154.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:15:56 -!- abeaumont [~Alfredo@138.Red-79-157-152.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:18:19 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-098-024-165-246.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: statonjr] 11:19:28 H4ns: So, I still don't understand. progn also require several forms, not list of forms. 11:20:17 H4ns: How I should use it? 11:20:31 Kuloto1: you need to splice your forms into a progn. what text are you reading to learn lisp? 11:21:34 Practical Common Lisp :) 11:21:45 `(progn ,@(loop ...)) 11:23:01 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.55.157] has joined #lisp 11:23:19 no clue ! lol 11:23:48 Kuloto1: look at the definition of WHEN in the macro chapter - it uses a progn so that multiple forms can be used in a 'then' clause. the same is needed when you want to expand to multiple forms. every macroexpansion creates exactly one result form. 11:23:58 Can't figure out how to browse to url http://paste.lisp.org/+2T1S 11:24:11 eheh, that's what i get now. bleh 11:24:43 adeht: Oh, thanks, I've tried this, but make mistape. 11:26:31 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129077157.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 11:26:38 Kuloto1: you should do (macroexpand-1 '(roll-sign-n ...)) to verify your expectations 11:26:51 H4ns: Yes, thank you, now it's clear :) 11:26:58 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:27:49 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 11:29:39 kiuma [~kiuma@proxykno.emea.fedex.com] has joined #lisp 11:30:16 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 11:30:21 adeht: Yes, I test it in this way :) With slime shortkeys. 11:31:26 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:31:52 -!- Kuloto1 [~mro@20.22.pool.kuban.skylink.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:32:04 Kuloto [~mro@20.22.pool.kuban.skylink.ru] has joined #lisp 11:33:02 But it's strange for that developers don't allow `,@ 11:33:09 *for me 11:46:31 gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has joined #lisp 11:48:40 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 11:48:44 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 11:51:51 minion: memo for z1l0g: you can use (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.string:string-justify-left string [width [left-margin]]) to indent a string. 11:51:52 Remembered. I'll tell z1l0g when he/she/it next speaks. 11:56:34 pjb, you forgot to remind about GPLing his code 11:57:16 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@183.46.13.227] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 11:58:46 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:00:07 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:00:38 wakeup_ [~max@xdsl-89-0-72-121.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:03:28 -!- wakeup [~max@xdsl-89-0-133-142.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:03:40 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 12:05:23 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@proxykno.emea.fedex.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:06:34 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:12:35 ipmonger [~ipmonger@69.241.19.12] has joined #lisp 12:14:49 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 12:15:15 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.2.120.0] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:15:21 jathd [~user@mon69-5-88-169-253-165.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:42 -!- Kuloto [~mro@20.22.pool.kuban.skylink.ru] has left #lisp 12:24:04 Kuloto [~mro@20.22.pool.kuban.skylink.ru] has joined #lisp 12:24:18 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-42-76.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:25:40 SanderM [~quassel@131.174.84.214] has joined #lisp 12:26:02 getoffmalawn [~getoffmal@CPE-124-191-133-14.wzyy1.woo.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:31:55 -!- Kuloto [~mro@20.22.pool.kuban.skylink.ru] has left #lisp 12:32:35 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129077157.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:34:42 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:34:54 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-43-112.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:41:56 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:44:42 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 12:45:42 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Client Quit] 12:45:48 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 12:46:21 SanderM_ [~quassel@vhe-400104.sshn.net] has joined #lisp 12:46:24 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:47:21 -!- SanderM [~quassel@131.174.84.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:49:19 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:54:19 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 12:55:00 zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@124.90.135.160] has joined #lisp 12:55:07 X-02 [~kohei@pon036-189.kcn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:55:30 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-23-1.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:56:27 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 12:56:59 abeaumont [~Alfredo@138.Red-79-157-152.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:48 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Client Quit] 12:59:15 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has joined #lisp 12:59:24 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:59:59 hi, when I repeat (make-array 2 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)) 1 million times, it just takes 0.001 seconds, but to repeat (make-octets 2), defined with the former code 1m times, it takes 2 seconds. Is there sth wrong with my environment, or should I define this as a macro for the speed? 13:00:27 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:01:01 X-02: show us the code 13:01:30 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-118-72.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 13:01:44 H4ns: simply like this: (defun make-octets (length) (make-array length :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8))) 13:02:21 X-02: and are you storing the results of the 1 mio calls to make-array/make-octets anywhere? 13:03:03 Kuloto [~mro@20.22.pool.kuban.skylink.ru] has joined #lisp 13:03:08 -!- Kuloto [~mro@20.22.pool.kuban.skylink.ru] has left #lisp 13:03:17 X-02: if you're using SBCL or CMUCL, the make-array form is eliminated as dead code. 13:03:18 -!- mindCrime__ [~prhodes@c-67-162-98-95.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:03:36 H4ns: for make-array, 0.001 seconds of real time 0.000425 seconds of total run time 13:03:54 X-02: what pkhuong says 13:04:09 pkhuong: SBCL. I think that's pretty possible. 13:04:25 X-02: you need to actually store the allocated arrays somewhere in order to actually make the measurement do anything useful 13:04:38 X-02: even with that, are you sure that you are optimizing on the right level? 13:05:12 and H4ns's suggestion only works because SBCL's DCE is stupid. 13:05:15 springz [~springz@110.53.94.132] has joined #lisp 13:06:01 H4ns: I'll try to store them. one moment pls.. 13:06:01 pkhuong: you mean a clever optimizer could optimize away even more? 13:06:54 -!- disciple [~krishna@117.201.20.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:08:17 H4ns: standard DCE pass even. The kind of stuff that's shown to final-year undergrads, with SBCL's way shown as the naive version (for which students ould only get partial marks ;) 13:08:35 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:08:45 disciple [~krishna@117.201.20.15] has joined #lisp 13:10:55 -!- dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:12:03 -!- saschakb [~skbierm@gateway/tor-sasl/saschakb] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 13:13:28 pkhuong: ok, you mean an undergrad's optimizer would be better than sbcl's? 13:13:30 :D 13:13:31 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-118-72.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:13:51 H4ns: pkhuong: I stored them in (make-hash-table), and optimized make-octets as (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0)) 13:14:07 X-02: what are you trying to do, really? 13:14:32 H4ns: pkhuong: and the resulf for make-array was around 1 sec, while that for make-octets was 3 or 4 seconds. 13:14:46 H4ns: on that case, yes. 13:14:57 H4ns: (time (dotimes (i 1000000) (setf (gethash i table) (make-octets 2)))) 13:15:27 H4ns: and (time (dotimes (i 1000000) (setf (gethash i table) (make-array 2 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8))))) 13:16:00 X-02: what are you trying to do? 13:17:04 X-02: you are measuring things like type checks and function call overhead etc right now. if you want to make those go away, you'll at least have to declare the argument type of your make-octets function, in addition to the optimize declaration. 13:17:16 H4ns: I'm just making all my code faster. The very problem was that make-instance was not quite fast, so I'm looking for the alternative 13:17:30 kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-9-231.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 13:17:35 X-02: did you use a profiler to find out where your code is slow? 13:18:53 H4ns: I'm making a database, so I cannot allow anything slower than 1 sec / 1m times 13:19:24 H4ns: especially in the case that I very often use make-instance, make-octets, etc. 13:19:30 X-02: and because of that, you cannot optimize where it is worth it? 13:19:31 That is an interesting concept. 13:21:10 H4ns: actually I was noticing make-octets and concatenation of it was the problem in my code, and make-instance was not very fast as well 13:21:18 Forty-3 [~seana11@75-145-119-42-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:21 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 13:21:28 Greetings lispers 13:22:12 X-02: avoid concatenation, re-use instances. 13:22:43 Xach: One idea is that if make-array and make-list are fast, I may use them instead of objects and octets 13:23:00 X-02: have a look at the disassembly. how is make-instance slow? is it because of keyword argument processing maybe? 13:23:15 X-02: what gives you that idea? 13:24:18 H4ns: I'll try disassembling. 13:25:53 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 13:26:09 H4ns: generic functions helped efficiency of coding, but for that I needed to use methods and objects. But if make-instance is not so fast, I have to reconsider it. 13:27:01 benny [~user@i577A704A.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:27:54 X-02: so you want to create 1 mio objects per second, right? 13:30:22 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.252.30] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 13:32:08 H4ns: database usually does more things than hash-table does, especially when we think of it as a cashe of file-based database like cassandra or HBase. 13:33:16 H4ns: but normally, on-memory database should handle at least 500,000 tps or ish 13:34:21 H4ns: it means, if make-instance (1m times) tooks 4 seconds or something, I cannot use it. 13:34:56 X-02: if you are under very tight performance constraints, you cannot use generic functions, dynamic allocation, keyword arguments etc. 13:35:11 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-deqzirrdzcygzdov] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:35:56 X-02: even in-memory systems don't optimise for write-mostly workloads. 13:36:33 H4ns: I'm actually realizing it. btw make-instance was a bit slower than make-list 13:36:53 (time (dotimes (i 1000000) (setf (gethash i table) (list 1 2)))) takes 0.7 seconds 13:36:56 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:57 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:36:57 gilez [~gdmalet@tux.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 13:36:57 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:36:59 X-02: that does not come as a surprise, but you are comparing apples and oranges anyway 13:37:22 (time (dotimes (i 1000000) (setf (gethash i table) (make-instance 'pair :car 1 :cdr 2)))) takes around 1 sec 13:37:24 X-02: and your method of measuring is bogus. what good is fast allocation if access is slow? 13:37:55 how much that time is spent in GC? 13:38:15 i used sbcl specific hacks to get fast instance allocation 13:38:20 s/fast/faster/ 13:39:20 pkhuong: GC time for make-instance was 0.3 sec, while that for make-list was 0.18 sec 13:39:44 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 13:40:06 X-02: if you want to sustain 500k ops/second, you'll hardly want to make pauses for garbage collection, or do you? 13:40:29 H4ns yes, it is bogus, but anyway I have to decide which type to use. 13:40:36 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:40:47 You can halve the difference by increasing the nursery's size. I'd also expect time-dependent effects, unless you force a full gc before each loop. 13:41:32 X-02: if you write code in a good manner, you don't have to decide on the data type upfront 13:41:33 stassats: may i ask more about a/fast/faster? 13:41:50 what do you want to ask? 13:44:02 stassats: yes, you're so right, but generic functions always require classes, not types 13:44:24 i'm not sure i follow you 13:44:55 X-02: you can use structures, or interface-passing style. 13:45:38 and besides, i thought you wanted to make whatever you make as fast as possible, that rules out generic-functions 13:46:02 maybe original "defclass" would be necessary, but then nobody would understand my code instead. 13:46:15 oO 13:46:57 stassats: that's true, I think. 13:47:50 you sound confused 13:49:35 stassats: but I at least found out I need to give up one thing from speed, generic functions or readability (using macros). 13:50:13 not necessarily. 13:50:32 I'll try some more experiments using "time" and "disassemble", I'll decide what I abandon. thank you so much anyway. 13:50:46 pkhuong: you think not? 13:50:51 i suggest you write something working first, worry about optimization later 13:51:00 otherwise you won't get anywhere 13:51:15 stassats: that's very true. 13:51:21 I also don't see how macros hinder readability. 13:51:54 pkhuong: I'll try my best to keep it. 13:52:37 X-02: are you going to the International Lisp Conference? 13:52:51 dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has joined #lisp 13:53:02 Xach: in autumn? 13:53:12 in japan! 13:53:34 I haven't decided yet. 13:54:05 Xach: would you mean you will be there? 13:54:59 I am not going but I have always had fun talking to Lispers at conferences. 13:55:14 If you like Lisp it is a fun thing to do. 13:55:31 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 13:55:39 love japan, but it's so damn expensive getting there. 13:56:07 Xach: thank you so much for the intructions! 13:56:26 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 13:56:26 *Xach* really hopes that the gdl regressions will be fixed soon, because the newest Quicklisp update is coming tomorrow! 13:56:29 Kron_ [~Kron@59.92.205.30] has joined #lisp 13:57:36 Xach: slime looks good, includes some valuable fixes 13:57:50 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 13:57:51 excellent 13:59:10 That's a reminder. Slime is one of the last remaining packages that I meant to switch over to Quicklisp instead of manual tracking. 14:00:24 I'm glad people still track it manually, because I would feel very bad if people got untested buggy updates. 14:01:42 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.234.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:02:25 wow. flying to japan from germany is surprisingly affordable in october. 700 euros return, one stop 14:02:40 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 14:02:56 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 14:02:57 well, what's left is to fly to germany 14:03:24 stassats: the cheapest fare is through istanbul 14:05:05 -!- mskou [~mskou@0x50a277b6.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1109.rdnqu2.customer.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:05:51 628 eur to fly from moscow through dubai or 668 for a direct flight 14:07:15 -!- hswe [~hswe@blackhole.space150.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:08:20 i'd go, but i'm not sure how easy is to get a visa 14:08:33 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.234.190] has joined #lisp 14:08:36 tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.192.180] has joined #lisp 14:09:53 JenLoveHewitt [JenniferLo@95.209.15.229.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 14:10:14 so you could generate lisp code that dynamically creates a new class right? 14:10:15 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:10:23 yes 14:10:57 because code is data yeah yeah yeah! 14:12:24 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 14:12:50 -!- Xach has set mode -bbbb *!*401f687a@*.64.31.104.122 *!~user@213.33.70.157 *!*ddcgavins@*.dealer.com *!~dnangel@c122-107-229-159.mckinn3.vic.optusnet.com.au 14:12:53 -!- Xach has set mode -bbbb *!*argoneus@unaffiliated/argoneus *!*trainengi@*.sd.sd.cox.net *!*@63.225.252.* *!~pmetzger@166.84.161.166 14:12:56 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 14:18:17 snearch [~snearch@p5795B2AE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:15 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:21:51 -!- snearch [~snearch@p5795B2AE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:25:41 how do i swt inferior-lisp to sbcl to ubuntu? 14:27:41 SWT? 14:28:19 start 14:28:29 and also, how do i install quicklisp? 14:28:55 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 14:29:00 For Quicklisp, read the instructions. I still don't understand your other question. 14:30:20 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 14:30:30 JenLoveHewitt: http://www.mohiji.org/2011/01/modern-common-lisp-on-linux/ 14:31:13 is there a good hashtable/map/tree to use with cl/sbcl? 14:32:38 clhs hash-table 14:32:38 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_hash_t.htm 14:33:09 minion: please tell JenLoveHewitt about PCL 14:33:10 JenLoveHewitt: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 14:33:14 read this 14:42:56 -!- Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:43:12 Jasko [~tjasko@ip-64-134-226-163.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:30 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@ip-64-134-226-163.public.wayport.net] has left #lisp 14:44:21 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-37-21-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 14:44:43 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-37-21-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:30 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:45:53 ipmonger: Interesting link you had there. Do you know if there is something similar for Windows? I'm doing a presentation on Common Lisp for about 200 people next week, and it would be nice to have a link that explains how to do it on Windows 14:46:08 I suppose CCL would be the one to recommend on that platform, yes? 14:46:48 loke: http://www.mohiji.org/2011/01/modern-common-lisp-on-windows/ - but it recommends clisp 14:47:18 H4ns: Well, Clisp is not bad for beginners 14:47:24 just saying. 14:49:47 OK, my resources slide now has links to PCL, Quicklisp and the two mohji guides 14:49:51 And IRC #lisp :-) 14:49:57 That should be enough 14:51:51 dmx [~dmx@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:06 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@59.92.205.30] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:54:32 loke: I primarily use LW on windows. Is there a problem with the free version of LW? I always wonder why no one recommends using it on Windows. 14:54:56 ThomasH: it is not "free software" in the sense of freenode.net 14:55:07 ThomasH: well, I tried the free version once but found it rediculously limiting 14:55:11 ridiculously 14:55:12 $free software vs. free software. 14:55:33 You can also use |||$free||| software  14:55:39 Ok, fair enough. Then I would go with CCL+emacs+slime on windows. 14:55:44 $freedom in jail :-) 14:56:40 SanderM [~quassel@131.174.84.215] has joined #lisp 14:57:20 I'd love to be able to use LW, but I can't justify the cost at the moment. Perhaps if my current project actually brings me some income... 14:58:21 -!- SanderM_ [~quassel@vhe-400104.sshn.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:58:39 I'd rather use SBCL in general, but I have to deliver GUI's on windows. I've also grown accustomed to the LW IDE. 14:58:58 ThomasH: there is nothing wrong with lispworks. 15:00:04 holycow [~holycow@host-216-251-135-194.bchsia.skywaywest.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:29 H4ns: I'm not saying there is. I just like the verbose feedback SBCL gives you as well as the detailed boxing, like (complex double-float) is an actual upgraded array type. 15:00:53 not having to use the int32 api is kind of nice too 15:02:42 tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.32.62.2] has joined #lisp 15:03:23 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 15:04:21 -!- ehu [~ehuels@31.138.202.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:06:06 -!- Ralith [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:06:48 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.192.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:07:03 fold [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 15:07:05 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-237-108.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:09 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 15:07:22 how do i get last statement in sbcl repl? 15:08:13 + 15:08:39 -!- r126f_ [~ruwin126@120.142.67.254] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:10:30 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-220-48.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 15:11:27 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:12:09 blbef [~chatzilla@089144206230.atnat0015.highway.a1.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:22 ehu [~ehuels@109.32.56.208] has joined #lisp 15:15:35 -!- JenLoveHewitt [JenniferLo@95.209.15.229.bredband.tre.se] has left #lisp 15:18:07 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 15:19:06 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 15:19:53 snearch [~snearch@p5795B2AE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:18 jewel_ [~jewel@196-210-172-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:20:33 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:22:18 -!- snearch [~snearch@p5795B2AE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:22:53 -!- tonussi [~lucaspt@189.101.225.182] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 15:22:57 nha [~prefect@82.113.106.46] has joined #lisp 15:23:03 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:23:18 mritz [~textual@cpe-70-112-3-176.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:24:30 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:25:22 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-190-229.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: none] 15:27:01 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.32.56.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:27:12 -!- nha [~prefect@82.113.106.46] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:27:16 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-190-229.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:28:34 optikalmouse [~user@gw.trapeze.com] has joined #lisp 15:30:27 -!- holycow [~holycow@host-216-251-135-194.bchsia.skywaywest.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:33:04 who crippled cmucl to no clueness ?! 15:33:10 lol 15:33:30 it doesn't know anymore what a url is! 15:35:44 kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:36:54 Kron_ [~Kron@59.92.205.30] has joined #lisp 15:37:09 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 15:38:07 -!- jathd [~user@mon69-5-88-169-253-165.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:39:49 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-99-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:59 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:43:29 -!- zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@124.90.135.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:46:51 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-131-122-178.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 15:50:47 -!- impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-2925078992.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:51:14 -!- mritz [~textual@cpe-70-112-3-176.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:54:37 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:54:41 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-99-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:54:59 mritz [~textual@cpe-70-112-3-176.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:55:21 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-99-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:26 jathd [~user@mon69-5-88-169-253-165.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:16 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:59:33 -!- mritz [~textual@cpe-70-112-3-176.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:02:14 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 16:02:36 -!- springz [~springz@110.53.94.132] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:08:21 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.234.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:09:56 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:12:13 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.60] has joined #lisp 16:12:51 anon119 [~bman@12.104.144.2] has joined #lisp 16:16:05 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@75-145-119-42-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:17:26 mike4_ [~mike4_@gateway/tor-sasl/mike4/x-38362156] has joined #lisp 16:20:20 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 16:24:40 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-198-46.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:44 pierre__ [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-141-174.w90-26.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:25:17 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-88-200.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:26:08 ngz [~user@174.15.86.79.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:17 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:26:33 -!- kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:30:05 tritchey [~tritchey@108.60.121.114] has joined #lisp 16:30:23 -!- sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:30:40 -!- anon119 [~bman@12.104.144.2] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:31:33 Cosman246 [~user@D-173-250-188-123.dhcp4.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 16:31:37 sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #lisp 16:31:43 Does anyone know where to find documentation on CL-CONT? 16:31:47 srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:26 -!- superflit [~superflit@65-128-53-202.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:33:30 -!- pierre__ [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-141-174.w90-26.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:33:38 superflit [~superflit@140.226.4.51] has joined #lisp 16:34:23 the same place you find cl-cont 16:34:32 Heres something that surprised me today, remove-duplicates(and delete-duplicates) retains the last occurrence of an object in a sequence by default. For some reason I always thought it was the other way around, that it retains the first occurrence. 16:37:02 yeah, i find that a bit annoying, frankly. 16:37:04 Screamer also appears nice; I wonder how to nicely decompose it into logic and pattern matching tools. 16:37:14 pavelpenev: yes, but it's the more natural thing to do, it's the trivial algorithm: (defun remove-duplicate (list) (cond ((null list) nil) ((member (car list) (cdr list)) (remove-duplicate (cdr list))) (t (cons (car list) (remove-duplicate (cdr list)))))) 16:37:26 Vectors came later, as well as the other parameters. 16:38:38 joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:30 -!- Kvaks [~quassel@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:40:05 Kvaks [~quassel@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 16:40:23 k0001 [~k0001@200.70.5.134] has joined #lisp 16:42:07 Jasko [~tjasko@207.239.114.206] has joined #lisp 16:42:21 I think the root of my confusion is that I neglected to think about :key and :test arguments, not that i didn't know about them, but I apparently still need to be deprogramming the scheme from my brain :) When you think of it in terms of just #'identity the order doesn't really matter. 16:44:01 it does matter depending on the test function 16:44:35 thats what I'm saying, I had an overly simplistic view that was wrong. 16:45:06 i never cared about the order 16:45:25 -!- vaus [~vaus@180.Red-83-61-39.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: vaus] 16:46:39 these subtle assumptions my brain made years ago that randomly pop up to bite my ass are really annoying, but also a great opportunity to learn :) 16:47:00 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:48:16 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:48:40 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:50:59 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has 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[~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has joined #lisp 17:18:38 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:26:27 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@207.239.114.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:27:13 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 17:27:31 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:30:48 flanfl [~flanfl@cpc1-sgyl27-2-0-cust785.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:32:56 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:35:30 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 17:37:16 -!- Guest11736 [~ubuntu@c-24-34-195-237.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:38:21 -!- ngz [~user@174.15.86.79.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:39:41 mritz_ [~textual@cpe-70-112-3-176.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:44:10 -!- anon119 [~bman@12.104.144.2] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:46:13 k0001 [~k0001@200.70.5.134] has joined #lisp 17:47:40 lirt [~lirt@90.151.239.18] has joined #lisp 17:51:13 -!- X-02 [~kohei@pon036-189.kcn.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: IRCStep] 17:51:57 tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-43-112.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:38 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:03:01 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:04:55 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:05:09 jathd [~user@mon69-5-88-169-253-165.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:16 <_schulte_> I'm getting a read error trying to load stefil with sbcl version "SBCL 1.0.57" 18:09:38 _schulte_: what's the error? 18:09:49 are you on OS X? 18:10:22 <_schulte_> "the octet sequence #(195) cannot be decoded." on Arch linux 18:10:45 pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:10:48 <_schulte_> it points to line 25 character 25 in stefil.asd, but I don't see anything odd there (or anywhere in the file) 18:11:03 <_schulte_> loads fine with ccl 18:11:11 sounds normal. How do you want to decode 195? 18:11:23 LOCALE issue. The file is encoded in UTF-8 and your default is either not UTF-8 or can't be parsed by SBCL. 18:11:54 <_schulte_> pkhuong: ok thanks, I'll take care of it then 18:12:18 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-99-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:15:16 -!- tensorpudding_ is now known as tensorpudding 18:15:18 -!- saschakb [~skbierm@gateway/tor-sasl/saschakb] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:16:33 -!- CrazyEddy [~theanthro@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:18:03 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-237-108.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:19:04 saschakb [~skbierm@gateway/tor-sasl/saschakb] has joined #lisp 18:21:10 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-237-108.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:59 <_schulte_> yup, a fixed locale solved the problem, sorry for the noise 18:23:10 Kron [~Kron@59.92.149.157] has joined #lisp 18:23:33 Jasko [~tjasko@12.130.123.172] has joined #lisp 18:25:16 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 18:25:42 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@59.92.205.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:29:19 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable063.5-59-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:30:06 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-99-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:19 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.55.157] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 18:32:07 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 18:33:01 So, I'd like some comments on MAP-BIND, a new macro (packaged as a library) that allows visual grouping of variables with their corresponding values (not necessarily 1:1) in calls to mapping operators when using an inline LAMBDA. I think historically vars/values separation was an argument against mapping functions, right? http://www.hexstreamsoft.com/projects/map-bind/ 18:33:43 disciple [~krishna@117.201.20.15] has joined #lisp 18:37:06 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-169.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:38:08 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-169.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:38:17 Hexstream: seems like you should have the expression after the binding list for parity with destructuring-bind 18:42:01 Interesting, that's an argument I didn't think about at all. However I think I have the right argument order, if you think about what the macro expands into. The first argument has the first part of the expansion, then the bindings part has variable names for the LAMBDA, then there's the body of the LAMBDA. The arguments to the mapping function from the bindings come last. 18:42:16 dlowe: (Forgot to ping.) 18:42:40 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:43:38 I think if you want people to think about what the macro expands into, you're designing it wrong :) 18:43:42 Wait, what "expression" were you talking about? I don't understand what you're proposing. 18:44:18 dlowe: That might be true about most macros, but this one is purely "visual". 18:44:28 CrazyEddy [~Physaria@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 18:46:01 anon119 [~bman@12.104.144.2] has joined #lisp 18:46:20 The macro doesn't care at all what specific variables you're visually associating with specific arguments to the mapping operator, as you can see in the very simple implementation. (I went through a few much more complex designs and implementations before finding the right way to do it.) 18:49:29 -!- jathd [~user@mon69-5-88-169-253-165.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:53:37 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 18:54:25 -!- arrsim` [~user@2001:44b8:415c:cc01:6ef0:49ff:fe5e:dedb] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:54:43 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-169.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:55:35 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-169.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:55:59 ;;;; THE END ;;;; 18:57:11 syamajala [~syamajala@68-116-188-122.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:57:18 Once upon a time, the directory of my 3.5" floppy had been damaged, and of course, I didn't have backups, my only copy of my sources where stored on that floppy. 18:57:37 stlifey [~stlifey@183.46.13.227] has joined #lisp 18:57:38 So I copied it sector by sector in a big file, and easily identified the start of each text file. 18:57:47 But not so easily for the end of each text file 18:57:59 Since then, I always mark the end of my text files. 18:58:19 And of course, marking the beginning and mentionning the file name there is useful too. 18:58:23 *Hexstream* waits for the Lisp angle. 18:58:27 pjb, i must say, i enjoy reading your code. It's so baroque. 18:58:36 Hexstream: None whatsoever. 18:58:58 Things must have changed since I stopped following the channel. 18:58:59 Quadrescence: Not really. Not as much as my newbie code. 18:59:44 What's baroque in https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blobs/master/common-lisp/lisp/stepper-functions.lisp and https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blobs/master/common-lisp/lisp/stepper.lisp ? 19:00:16 The AGPL license! 19:00:21 haha 19:00:34 Are you that desperate for everyone to not use your software? 19:00:57 -!- anon119 [~bman@12.104.144.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:01:20 Looks my land lord is quite desesperate to keep his apartment empty, and by grocerer quite desesperate to keep his tomatoes. Nonetheless, I want YOU to give THEM the sources of their software. 19:01:50 What's desesperate in that? 19:01:58 anon119 [~bman@12.104.148.2] has joined #lisp 19:02:14 If I was desesperate despite the lack of financial independence, I would not be here. I'd be making money. 19:02:26 -!- anon119 [~bman@12.104.148.2] has quit [Client Quit] 19:02:37 You can call me unconscious if you want, but not desesperate. 19:02:50 It's "desperate", I believe. 19:02:52 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-146.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:02:58 desperate right. 19:03:17 I'm merging it with désespoir :-) 19:05:50 -!- disciple [~krishna@117.201.20.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:06:01 pjb: I don't see how going out of your way to make sure only the very small subset of people that are fine with AGPL will consider using your software will force anyone to release their sources. They'll just not use your software, rather than grudgingly giving away their sources. 19:06:29 That's not true. clisp went GPL for readline, rather than dropping readline. 19:07:25 And if they have give their sources grudgingly, then perhaps it's better if we don't share with those people. 19:07:56 After all, commercial entrerprises give also give their sources, if not grudgingly, then greedily. 19:08:08 disciple [~krishna@117.201.20.15] has joined #lisp 19:08:22 That's one data point. It could just as easily have gone the other way around. clisp went GPL because its author was sympathetic to the GPL cause, but if he wasn't, readline would no doubt have been dropped. 19:08:39 Hexstream: in the mean time, have a look at http://www.thevenusproject.com/. 19:09:05 And perhaps watch a couple of Star Trek episodes ;-) 19:10:07 vlion [~vlion@66-87-112-204.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:31 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable151.155-57-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:10:43 A "problem" with gpl is that big open source projects that have lots of contributors require all contributors to agree on a license change. 19:11:05 That's not a problem with GPL, that's a problem with contributors who don't agree to. 19:11:10 Unfortunately some contributors may not be able to be contacted, despite having their "share" of copyright 19:11:26 This is a problem with current laws. 19:11:33 If commercial enterprises already give away their sources, I don't see the point of forcing them to do so with the AGPL. Those who would have released them anyway would have even without the obligation from AGPL, and those who didn't want to will choose not to use AGPL software rather than doing it, so what's the point. 19:11:56 another pointless gpl discussion on #lisp, great 19:12:01 Hexstream: they do, against a lot of money: often, you basically have to buy the company to get access to the sources. 19:12:01 Quadrescence: the GPL has far greater problems than that 19:12:18 madnificent: no, it's our society that has far greater problems. 19:12:26 This discussion about licenses will be moo soon. 19:12:26 Quadrescence: but it's a matter of opinion. if you want to force people to be free, you mst support the GPL! 19:12:45 pjb: our society doesn't seem to have big problems with the gpl 19:13:07 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.52.168] has joined #lisp 19:13:13 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.52.168] has quit [Changing host] 19:13:13 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 19:13:20 madnificent: indeed, that's the magic of the GPL: its a device that works against the current settup using the current settup. 19:13:27 s/tt/t/ 19:13:37 : 19:13:39 except, perhaps, GPLv3 not having been validated by court in all countries where it is used... but that seems to be beside the point in the long run (though it does mean that you have no clue what you're signing) 19:13:46 pjb: 'no' 19:13:57 Once the GPL is successful, it becomes useless and caduceous. 19:14:20 madnificent: in any case, what do you thing we care about lawless countries such as England and USA! 19:14:28 We don't have to wait until that point, it's already the case. ;P 19:14:37 Law must be written. 19:14:54 pjb: once the GPL is successful, i'd argue that it's impossible to invent big things which require a lot of effort and can potentially be sold to a lot of people. but i digress. i just hope no one will be forced to publish their code under gpl because you continuously advise them your code and don't warn them about the lincense 19:14:57 <|3b|> can we just agree pjb will use (a)gpl, and the rest of us won't use pjb's software, and leave it at that? 19:15:07 pjb: but you are right, that fits perfectly in your theory of beat the system by using the GPL 19:15:32 madnificent: you're perfectly right. But once the GPL is successful, it will be perfectly possible to invent big things which require a lot of effort. 19:15:39 pjb: if only people weren't so cruel and would show their true color 19:15:53 Just you won't sell them, you'll give them. And they'll be reproduced automatically and freely. 19:16:03 pjb: if you read the GPL text as well as my comments, yes! you should support it 100% 19:16:29 pjb: but we both know that we both disagree, and i'm tired of arguing with you. i know you won't show the disclaimer to people you supposedly try to help. 19:16:43 madnificent: you can't say I don't warn about my license: it's written twice in each source file, and twice in the ASD file! 19:17:41 In the mean time, I've got 300+ downloads from quicklisp, so while it's much less than alexandria, there are still people find it useful. 19:17:46 pjb: you don't say so when you're helping people here. and i'm fairly certain many of them don't realize the implications of using gpl code with lisp. 19:17:59 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Client Quit] 19:18:00 It's all over the place. 19:18:11 Actually, companies are using GPL for strategic advantage, for their own corporate interests, to release source (thereby having better adoption) while minimizing the risk of getting serious competition. And often they dual-license, you can use GPL'd version for free or you can buy a version you can keep closed source. 19:18:31 Perhaps I should first start explaining TCP/IP protocols? 19:18:34 this discussion is ridiculous, can you please stop it? 19:18:37 Hexstream: licenses with less limitations (eg: apache) are more common 19:18:45 Forgive me for being ignorant, pjb, but what package is yours? 19:18:51 stassats is right. back to the joy of lisp, that makes me happier! 19:19:00 madnificent: Yeah, and thank god. 19:19:03 vlion: https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/ 19:19:15 Thanks. :) 19:19:17 madnificent, you mean back to the channel being dead? 19:19:20 francogrex [~user@109.130.46.24] has joined #lisp 19:19:37 I have to say it, "It's not dead, it just smells funny." 19:19:43 hahaha 19:20:27 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:20:41 that has been in the topic of #fortran forever: "Welcome to #fortran. it's not dead, it just smells funny..." 19:20:42 Just one last word. There are also in my code quite a few modules that are developers-only. For example this stepper is a tool any developer can use, could modify for his own need, and would never release it. With this in mind, perhaps one day those parts will become closed sources and I'll start SELLING lisp developper tools. I'm sure you'll prefer that over AGPL3. 19:21:02 pjb: i would 19:21:04 pjb: I doubt 100% of those 300+ downloads are from people who know the license of your software in advance and understand all the implications and agree with them and then happily use it with the joy of knowing it's AGPL. 19:21:33 Hexstream: you're forgetting some other freedoms. 19:21:35 pjb should add AGPL to all the doc strings, just to be sure 19:21:47 Quadrescence: it's in all the packages doc strings! 19:22:27 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has left #lisp 19:22:40 (Well, the stepper is too fresh, I didn't copy-and-paste the license mention yet, but it'll be and it's in the other packages). 19:22:54 There can't be any more freedom than: "I authored this software and release it in the public domain (per the unlicense), do anything whatsoever you want with it." 19:23:13 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-198-46.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 19:23:20 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@static.146.73.9.176.clients.your-server.de] has left #lisp 19:23:31 Hexstream: Caesar was free, and there wasn't any more freedom than his. 19:23:46 -!- jnbek|wc [~jnbek@pdpc/supporter/active/jnbek] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:24:03 Anyway, diminishing returns and all that. Cya. 19:24:03 no one is oppressed by people releasing software on more permissive licenses 19:24:04 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable063.5-59-74.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 19:24:11 pointless discussion. 19:24:28 punee, education isn't pointless 19:24:45 what education? this is a purely political matter 19:25:12 On the other hand, RMS preaches only to the choir. That's funny but true. I guess he leaves proselytism to the others. 19:26:48 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:26:53 punee, education about what GPL is and why it is beneficial or detrimental in the short-term and long-term. 19:27:27 i'm sure people are well aware of the underpinnings of different licenses? 19:27:48 are you? or are you nt? 19:27:50 not? 19:27:53 Maybe, but I think assuming what other people know can be a source of problems. 19:28:08 It's Friday afternoon in August, shouldn't all of our European friends be lounging on the beach right now? 19:28:29 Furthermore, it's more addressed to corporations than to individuals. 19:28:32 ThomasH: they should. 19:28:41 ThomasH: with 13° C? no thanks 19:28:51 30 C 19:29:13 Why are you inflicting yourself such a pain? Move toward the equator! 19:29:13 corporations are reading this channel? 19:29:33 I learnt this year that there are actual words for "juilletards" and "aoutistes" 19:29:36 They surely will read the license notices in the sources they'll try to use in their proprietary software. 19:29:40 punee, employees of some corporations are, yes. 19:30:22 And I assure you they will use any BSD or MIT library they can, and will fire as many programmers as they can. 19:30:47 yeah because the goal of corporations is to fire people 19:31:05 I can confirm what pjb has said from personal experience. 19:31:06 -!- pskosinski is now known as idklaze 19:31:12 -!- idklaze is now known as fallon 19:31:18 -!- fallon is now known as pskosinski 19:31:27 punee: it was the goal of Spanish Inquisition 19:31:31 "Use as much open source software that we can use, and get rid of staff we now don't need to program it." 19:31:46 lol 19:31:59 stassats: Those were the days. 19:32:56 can anyone tell me if they used the paip source codes on cmucl or sbcl and were successfull fully running all the examples ? 19:33:22 i get a funny error on chapter 18.5 code 19:33:27 madnificent [~madnifice@static.146.73.9.176.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 19:33:32 It was disgusting practice, which is why I'm a bit sympathetic to pjb's license choices. Some corporations will avoid as much work as possible and not return the favor. 19:33:33 it's written in pre-ansi cl 19:33:43 you need to correct it in a couple of places 19:33:48 There were actually less stakes starting from the Spanish Inquisition, since they started investigations (inquisitions) and required proofs or convictions before burning, contrarily to the precendent period where mere suspicion or popular vindict was enough. 19:33:56 not all corporations are interested in having hundreds of programmers around to build software 19:34:06 i'm not sure what's hard to understand about that 19:34:27 wbooze: I have patches there: http://paste.lisp.org/display/130167 19:34:27 \ 19:34:39 wait 19:34:41 are they GPL? 19:35:02 punee: what's hard is that they'd want $free software but they don't give you $free housing and $free tomatoes. 19:35:17 and why the hell would they 19:35:37 they don't "want" free software, people have made software free for their use 19:35:41 So they're useless. And we should not care providing them with free software. 19:35:48 pjb: we use $free/libre whatever you want to call it, software, and we share back. it doesn't seem to be complex. with the gpl, companies that don't want to share will not share. and the FSF seems to support it very much 19:35:53 *cough* google *cough* 19:36:17 people providing services aren't useless because you have to pay for them 19:36:19 madnificent: sure. In a parallel universe, I don't care what they do. 19:36:30 now can we please please please get back to lisp? nobody is going to get convinced here, so essentially, you're stealing away developer time with your ludicrous attempt to force freedom on people 19:36:38 madnificent, there are a lot of companies that do not do that though, especially start ups 19:36:54 punee: perhaps the point is that I should make you pay to use my software. Let's ask Xach to add a payment service for each download. 19:36:59 (optional) 19:37:06 why not? 19:37:19 Because it's useless. 19:37:26 punee: you need to read http://www.thevenusproject.com/ 19:37:30 no 19:37:38 402: Payment Required 19:37:38 you need to read some basic textbook on economics 19:37:38 Xapp Store -- coming this Fall. 19:37:41 Quadrescence: we're a startup, we share. there are a lot of startups that don't buy licenses for payed software. there are a lot of them that simply fuck whatever the GPL is telling them. that's the world. some people don't want to cooperate. and given that the target is either small enough or big enough, it will not be targetted. a 'license' doesn't change that. 19:37:42 sellout42, :D 19:37:50 Speaking of funding software, PSA for Xach -> http://www.quicklisp.org/donations.html 19:38:37 how do i know that he doesn't spend it all on hookers and booze? 19:38:51 Just reward. 19:39:01 Ask his wife? 19:39:03 stassats: You don't, it doesn't matter as long as Quicklisp keeps progressing. 19:39:28 is drunk divorced Xach capable of progressing quicklisp? 19:40:00 re hookers & booze: a coworker said: "I'm sure the hookers really flock to the lisp conference. 'Oh the lisp boys are coming, I'll be pulling in the BIG spenders'" 19:40:32 :-) 19:41:10 Actually, the divorced part might result in more progress, can't say for sure about the drunk. 19:41:27 urandom__ [~user@p548A185E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:44 If they promize sicp manga girls at ILC http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdj6deraQ6k perhaps I'll consider going to Japan :-) 19:43:25 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.46.24] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:43:26 -!- disciple [~krishna@117.201.20.15] has quit [Quit: zzzZZZ] 19:43:27 pjb, CUDDR CUDDR CUDDR CUDDR 19:45:21 tho aima ran thru all without errors here.... 19:45:33 now i'll try your patched ones...we'll see 19:45:39 aima is more modern 19:46:14 something in tutor.lisp is foul at least i know..... 19:46:47 there's some redirection of input to output or vice versa done wrong or so....on some stream.... 19:46:54 bleh 19:47:03 On a serious note, is anyone here planning on going to ILC 2012? 19:47:09 until that chapter all is ok 19:47:39 from there on it gets in a never ending loop flushing and flushing.... 19:47:48 Quadrescence: me 19:47:52 Quadrescence: travel expenses are to high for me 19:48:23 i'm to lazy to get a visa 19:48:32 Quadrescence: I found a direct round-trip flight Rome->Kansai for 550 :) 19:50:10 fe[nl]ix, wow, nice 19:50:43 direct doesn't sound that nice in this case 19:50:55 price 19:51:09 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-198-46.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:27 stassats: why ? 19:51:28 my ticket is probably going to be around 1500 USD :S 19:51:46 -!- vlion [~vlion@66-87-112-204.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 19:51:57 stassats: you probably don't need a visa 19:52:07 fe[nl]ix: sitting 13 hours is too much 19:53:24 fe[nl]ix: no, it's required for russia 19:54:04 Guthur [~user@host86-160-241-11.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:55:12 fe[nl]ix, maybe we can meet up and have a drink 19:56:05 wow, that's surprising 19:56:10 no russia on the list http://www.mofa.go.jp/j_info/visit/visa/short/novisa.html 20:02:26 550 --> 22 Raspberry Pi's. 20:02:40 -!- antonv [2e35c344@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.68] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:02:50 stassats: you don't site 13 hours in a 380! 20:03:21 jump up and down due to turbulence instead? 20:04:36 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host57-4-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:04:39 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:06:20 stassats: no, you swim in the swimming pool: http://www.cardatabase.net/modifiedairlinerphotos/search/photo_search.php?id=00008938 20:06:33 surely not for 550 eur 20:06:53 and it seems that only twin-engines fly to Osaka 20:06:59 anon119 [~bman@12.104.148.2] has joined #lisp 20:07:10 or 747 20:07:13 ipmonger [~ipmonger@c-76-26-112-202.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:41 stassats: it's in Kyoto. 20:09:55 kyoto has no airports 20:10:10 Kansai and Itami are pretty near 20:10:28 hagish [~hagish@e181021043.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:11:46 Itami is domestic 20:13:20 They should do it in a place where the closest airport is on an island 200 miles away. After you take the boat, you have to walk 20 km up a mountain, since there's no car on that island. 20:13:22 Posterdati [~quassel@host57-4-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:13:43 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:14:12 as long as it doesn't require visas, i'm for it 20:14:21 I' 20:14:34 ll curse Napoleon forever because of passports and visas. 20:14:54 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:14:54 The French revolution has been much worse than the Spanish Inquisition. 20:15:14 sellout42 [~Adium@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:22 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-220-48.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 20:16:34 ok it works 20:18:16 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:18:20 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-146.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:19:39 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.106.36.138] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:22:25 ISF [~ivan@187.106.36.138] has joined #lisp 20:22:54 francogrex [~user@109.130.46.24] has joined #lisp 20:23:40 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.106.36.138] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:25:58 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.234.190] has joined #lisp 20:25:58 antgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-wvryjhiahrkybaox] has joined #lisp 20:28:20 pjb: and that image is not real 20:29:12 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.2.120.0] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:30:16 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:30:25 stassats: did you read my message to sbcl-devel ? 20:31:05 yeah 20:31:42 -!- Kron [~Kron@59.92.149.157] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 20:32:41 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 20:33:01 -!- ipmonger [~ipmonger@c-76-26-112-202.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ipmonger] 20:34:03 trying to open /dev/tty without having a controlling tty returns ENXIO on Linux and probably the same on FreeBSD 20:34:24 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-9-231.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:34:38 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-126-72.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:44 ok, i'll try that 20:34:53 (tests are not that motivating) 20:35:40 -!- k0001 [~k0001@200.70.5.134] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:36:07 smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:39 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@68-116-188-122.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:39:23 nicferrier [~nicferrie@140.35.155.90.in-addr.arpa] has joined #lisp 20:39:32 -!- nicferrier [~nicferrie@140.35.155.90.in-addr.arpa] has left #lisp 20:40:38 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@12.130.123.172] has left #lisp 20:41:37 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:41:48 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-146.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:44:24 sicp j-pop is the last thing I expected to exist in the universe 20:44:38 :) 20:46:28 -!- Eulo [~Eulo@78-72-37-188-no21.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:47:18 just to remind you that lispers have it good: http://java.dzone.com/articles/named-parameters-java 20:48:03 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 20:48:26 doesn't it have arglist display or something? 20:48:32 Hey! Look! Objects! 20:48:59 hehe Javas solution to everything is a class 20:49:09 atsidi [~nkraft@ip72-192-253-246.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:09 On the other hand indeed, it's bad for the parenthesis count. 20:49:52 probably should read "javas only solution for everything is class" 20:49:57 Guthur: Java designers should be sent to class 20:50:17 stassats, haha 20:50:24 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 20:50:40 didn't steele help out with designing java? or just writing the standard? 20:50:55 seems like the latter 20:51:05 stassats: James Gosling? He already knew lisp. 20:51:12 Java, that must be alzheimer 20:51:50 -!- smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:52:27 smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:55 Forty-3 [~seana11@75-145-119-42-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:55 probably one of those things done with good intentions that go horrible awry 20:53:37 Making half of C++ programmers write programs closer to lisp? 20:54:04 pjb: I think thats a reference to GC, and not much else 20:54:41 pjb: yeah I think that was the good intenttion 20:54:52 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-146.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:54:54 Well, given that C and Lisp are local optimums (a DSL to write a unix kernel, the best programming language ever designed), in the middle of them you can only have deep valleys of mediority. 20:54:56 but what lies between C++ and Lisp is not pretty 20:54:56 The intention was I think to compete with microsoft 20:55:00 mediocrity. 20:55:20 pavelpenev: no it was to make applets. 20:55:26 That's a total failure. 20:55:27 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 20:55:37 pjb: to compete with microsoft that ruled the desktop 20:56:04 http://www.lively-kernel.org/ :-) 20:56:47 ipmonger [~ipmonger@50.sub-70-192-129.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 20:56:47 anyway, java is not the only one that has it bad, look at our cousin: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3337888/clojure-named-arguments :) 20:57:42 pavelpenev: https://plus.google.com/u/0/110981030061712822816/posts/KaSKeg4vQtz 20:57:51 that's my final word on clojure :-) 20:58:24 pjb: a sign in form? 20:58:29 hardly convincing 20:58:33 steve yegge, yep, not reading that 20:58:36 (is it the yegge post?) 20:59:01 didn't RMS dislike kwargs 20:59:03 I'm interested in a seasoned lisper's comprehensive review of clojure. 20:59:05 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has joined #lisp 20:59:12 post length should be measured in milliyegges 20:59:21 Yes, he's aligning programmers on a liberal<->conservative axis, and placing Clojure in the consevative camp, while lisp is in the liberal camp. 20:59:45 -!- jewel_ [~jewel@196-210-172-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:59:50 I liked yegge untill i learned lisp and reread his criticism of it :) 21:00:18 Quadrescence: working on it (; 21:00:39 pjb: that sounds pretty stupid to me, but oh well (: 21:00:58 bla bla static typing bla conservative bla 21:01:03 if there's a stream dedicated as output-stream, how do you get input from it ? 21:01:09 disciple [~krishna@117.201.20.15] has joined #lisp 21:01:30 with-input-from-string (stream input) won't do 21:01:40 what? 21:01:45 Is 'Lively Kernel' entirely implemented in javascript? 21:01:51 tells me standard-ouptut is not a char input stream 21:02:00 wbooze: you're not making sense 21:02:34 my problem with clojure is that I constantly misspell defn, If i ever write clojure again, i should write some elisp to automatically convert defun to defn 21:02:55 why didn't they name it dfn? 21:03:04 ThomasH: yes. 21:03:07 well i tried the original paip.sources tar gz file 21:03:11 seems like def would have been the more natural contraction 21:03:35 antifuchs: yes, I thought it stupid until I reached his paragraph about Clojure :-) 21:03:41 stassats: because clojure is not arc i guess :) 21:04:08 wbooze: there's no pipe in CL. 21:04:09 pjb: So, javascript the new C? 21:04:12 and there's a (if input (with-intput-from-string (input) (set bla....., but stream itself is a output-stream 21:04:19 wbooze: you can read the input stream and write the output stream. 21:04:44 If you have threads, you can even do that in parallel to other processes. but you cannot have a "stream" to which one stream would write and another read. 21:04:50 well, so someone wrote it as if there was pipe.... 21:04:55 You could implement one with gray streams however. 21:05:06 wbooze: or maybe you're misinterpreting what someone did? 21:05:12 Or you could use a named pipe on the file system. 21:05:13 no 21:05:31 how do you know? 21:05:37 show us the code 21:05:45 In "(if input (with-intput-from-string (input) (set bla....., " there's no "stream" variable. 21:05:54 i get thrown out, flushing errors in sequence in cmucl, with the same error is not an characterinput stream.... 21:06:06 why are you even using cmucl? 21:06:08 over and over at chapter 18.5 example of paip....code 21:06:57 -!- antgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-wvryjhiahrkybaox] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:07:13 -!- bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:09:42 http://pastie.org/4451884 21:10:59 clhs with-input-from-string 21:10:59 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_in_f.htm 21:11:27 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:11:49 iLogical_ [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 21:14:40 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:16:12 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:29 adam7504 [~adam@94-193-108-52.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:19:31 -!- adam7504 [~adam@94-193-108-52.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:19:51 adam7504 [~adam@94-193-108-52.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:22:47 -!- ipmonger [~ipmonger@50.sub-70-192-129.myvzw.com] has quit [Quit: ipmonger] 21:22:57 sirsublime [~jst@176-168.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 21:24:20 Yegge is quite the prolific writer 21:24:36 writer/blogger 21:25:05 maybe that's what Google pays him to do 21:25:27 To have more data to index? 21:27:07 It looks like they don't index the DNA. "Your search - gatacaccaatagagga - did not match any documents. " 21:27:53 pjb: give them time, I'm sure they are working on it 21:28:13 gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has joined #lisp 21:28:20 but can you construct naughty pictures from DNA? 21:28:28 Android phones with start taking biometrics from their users to feedback to google 21:28:45 Ah, on the other hand, if you insert spaces: gat aca cca ata gag tga, they produce hits. 21:29:12 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 21:33:01 The cause of Apples recent iCloud breach was quite funny. They apparently used the last 4 digits from users credit cards, the same four digits that are often shown in plain text on order confirmations. 21:33:07 -!- adam7504 [~adam@94-193-108-52.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:33:08 the uga uga codon ? 21:33:13 lol 21:33:16 quite the epic fail 21:34:16 if i ever get to know how streams work...... 21:34:27 i'll do a blonde! 21:34:30 lol 21:34:43 what should with-input-from-string do? 21:35:15 you can put characters into an output stream and you can take characters from an input stream 21:35:23 wbooze: streams are not very difficult to figure out. 21:35:31 now do whatever is it you were promising to do 21:35:55 pavelpenev: i never was much into them until recently or strings.... 21:36:51 so a string won't be handed over directly to the streams ? 21:37:01 you have to feed char wise ? 21:37:01 What does that mean? 21:37:03 what string? 21:37:25 If you can't say what with-input-from-string must do, how can you understand it? 21:37:33 your problem is that you can't coherently state the problem 21:38:03 -!- flanfl [~flanfl@cpc1-sgyl27-2-0-cust785.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:38:14 You just forgot to shift the gears of your brains this morning. It happens to a lot of people. 21:38:19 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has quit [K-Lined] 21:38:55 pjb: what if the brain is electric, it doesn't need gears! 21:41:04 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-23-55.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:30 I'm a mediocre writer at best, but I think I can cut this Yegge article in half, judging by the small part I've managed to read so far. 21:43:13 pavelpenev: it is a tad long 21:43:24 pavelpenev: You probably have more to gain by not reading any more and doing some useful coding. 21:43:29 There's a theory that says that blogs must be long, to have more impact. 21:43:35 pavelpenev: that's what yegge is infamous for 21:43:52 Shorter blogs stay in short-term memory. Longer blogs, you must swap them out to long-term memory. 21:43:54 I don't mind long, the problem is dead weight 21:44:43 its signal/noise ratio is too small 21:45:12 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.46.24] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:45:19 To be fair it has a TL;DR :) 21:45:43 I subscribe to the philosophy : "If I had more time, I would have written a shorter letter." Concise points are better made. 21:49:10 -!- Cosman246 [~user@D-173-250-188-123.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:49:49 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 21:51:53 umm, I am somewhat surprised how core C++ seems to be to Google. Just browsed the Google London software jobs, all list C++ among the required languages along with Java 21:51:55 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-126-72.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:52:22 vaus [~vaus@180.Red-83-61-39.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:55 ehu` [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 21:52:57 The do have a nice looking office though 21:53:04 s/The/They 21:53:18 what did you expect? 21:53:36 Guthur: don't get suckered in, free food is no substitute for freedom 21:53:38 :) 21:53:57 I somehow thought Python was more prevalent 21:54:10 google is not your average hippie start-up 21:54:11 Guthur: python is barely used at google AFAIK 21:54:23 Google is conservative. 21:54:29 Yahoo is more liberal. 21:54:32 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:54:40 So says Yeggue. 21:55:55 pjb: well, he accurately describes us as out of control software anarchist, so thats probably true :) 21:56:14 pavelpenev: are you a Yahoo hacker? 21:56:24 Yahoo! even, hehe 21:56:24 Guthur: no 21:56:29 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 21:57:10 Yahooker doesn't sound right... 21:57:28 Yahoorker. 21:57:38 certainly eludes to different profession 21:57:50 one a lot older than software development 21:58:04 anything is older than software development 21:58:23 Nothing is older than software development. 21:58:52 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:02 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-131-122-178.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 22:00:05 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@108.60.121.114] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 22:03:06 <|3b|> arguably hardware development is older :p 22:03:27 k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 22:03:34 <|3b|> hard to run all that fancy pattern recognition software on algae 22:04:13 ah I think I get it, DNA is the software 22:05:17 *|3b|* supposes that might run on algae 22:09:20 -!- p_l|abdn [~pl@web1.rootnode.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:09:43 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:10:24 phao [phao@177.146.131.63] has joined #lisp 22:10:50 I had this debate with a sysadmin friend of mine, somewhere along the line he mentioned Leibniz and his idea to build a machine to do binary arithmetic, I won the debate by saying that Leibniz was inspired by I Ching, which is software :) 22:11:38 k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 22:12:31 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.113.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:13:31 |3b|: No, because the universe is simulated in lambda calculus, so software must come first, then hardware. 22:14:43 considering that hardware is just software made out of silicone, and software is just hardware described in abstract prose, I guess the debate is useless :) 22:14:49 how do i simulate the uncertainty principle? 22:16:02 carefully 22:16:27 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:16:32 stassats: (defclass particule () ((position*velocity :initform 0 :accessor pv))) 22:17:12 Since you have a lot of particules (and for other reasons), it's less expensive if you just keep one slot instead of two. 22:18:29 Otherwise you can ask for the exact code to string theorists. 22:21:01 tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-196-84.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:57 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-43-112.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:26:10 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:30:00 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.182.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:32:21 ISF [~ivan@187.106.36.138] has joined #lisp 22:32:56 -!- sellout42 is now known as sellout 22:34:00 -!- kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:35:21 -!- kanru_ [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:39:45 kanru_ [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:23 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:42:38 mindCrime__ [~prhodes@c-67-162-98-95.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:02 -!- karswell_ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:43:23 -!- Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483A947.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:43:57 I finished the Yegge article. I'm not sure I agree with it in general, but thats pretty much how I felt when I moved to common lisp from clojure, cl felt very liberating. 22:44:07 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@75-145-119-42-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:45:11 p_l|ssh-broke [~pl@host-78-146-184-254.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 22:45:20 *pavelpenev* goes back to in dept study of CLOS, instead of wasting more time. 22:48:17 sohail [~Adium@75-119-249-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 22:48:18 -!- sohail [~Adium@75-119-249-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 22:48:18 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 22:51:17 pavelpenev: impressive patience to read that many characters 22:51:53 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@201.251.103.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:52:00 antonv: I don't read characters 22:52:28 I skip a lot of them 22:52:48 spell checkers read characters 22:52:48 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Client Quit] 22:53:02 )) 22:53:21 karswell_ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:55:36 -!- phao [phao@177.146.131.63] has left #lisp 22:56:52 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.234.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:57:39 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-169.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:00:59 -!- iLogical_ [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:03:13 -!- ehu` [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:03:39 -!- punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:03:41 tsuru``` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-25-95.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:51 punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 23:05:11 -!- tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-196-84.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:05:34 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: Bye.] 23:07:22 -!- sirsublime [~jst@176-168.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:08:38 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 23:08:43 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-220-48.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 23:09:19 Forty-3 [~seana11@75-145-119-42-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:39 -!- mindCrime__ [~prhodes@c-67-162-98-95.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:12:44 p_l|abdn [~pl@web1.rootnode.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:13 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:16:39 Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:58 umm, feels like unwind-protect should have had an implicit progn 23:19:14 -!- punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:19:15 but maybe that's just because I forgot to add it when I needed it, hehe 23:19:31 punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 23:19:43 -!- dan [~dan@gateway/tor-sasl/dan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:19:53 and spent too long chasing an unreachable code error before I realised 23:20:42 dan [~dan@gateway/tor-sasl/dan] has joined #lisp 23:24:53 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.142.166.35] has joined #lisp 23:24:55 it has for the clean up forms 23:25:34 stassats: well it should have it for both, then! 23:25:45 nice joke 23:26:46 if any language will be able to read your mind... it'll be lisp 23:27:04 now, that's too cheesy 23:27:16 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:27:56 ba dum shiii 23:28:08 -!- saschakb [~skbierm@gateway/tor-sasl/saschakb] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 23:29:06 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 23:30:29 -!- punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Quit: punee] 23:31:21 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-237-108.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:31:55 tbh I rarely find unwind-protect outside of a with- macro which usually provides an implied progn anyway 23:32:09 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.106.36.138] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:33:15 ISF [~ivan@187.106.36.138] has joined #lisp 23:33:42 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.4.51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:33:47 superflit_ [~superflit@65-128-53-202.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:14 ... Lisp definitely spoils you 23:35:31 *p_l|ssh-broke* has no idea if the code he writes in Java will work at all. It compiles, though... on Nth try 23:35:59 maybe the problem is that you don't know java? 23:36:41 stassats: a bit. But I think in equals part to me forgetting just how you think while working with it, after using CL :/ 23:36:51 and there's no time to test, eh 23:37:10 one tends to forget not frequently used things 23:37:15 after this, I need to get down with ABCL and port Clojure's java interface to it 23:38:53 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Quit: kcj] 23:38:54 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 23:39:25 it's literally the only reason why I didn't use ABCL 23:39:43 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 23:40:07 lebro [~monx@ool-18babb78.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:39 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-190-229.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:44:28 steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-cbfwtuydzdfhyqwo] has joined #lisp 23:44:41 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-160-241-11.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:45:27 *pavelpenev* is spoiled beyond recovery 23:45:36 -!- steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-cbfwtuydzdfhyqwo] has quit [Client Quit] 23:47:31 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: dobranoc] 23:47:46 -!- Posterdati [~quassel@host57-4-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:51:32 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.106.36.138] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:51:46 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:52:00 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:52:18 ISF [~ivan@187.106.36.138] has joined #lisp 23:52:25 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-99-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:52:52 Posterdati [~quassel@host57-4-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 23:53:43 -!- Posterdati [~quassel@host57-4-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:54:44 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.106.36.138] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:54:59 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 23:55:30 pierre__ [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-102-104.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:55:55 -!- pierre__ is now known as nowhere_man 23:56:26 andres-v [~andres-v@centraltelefonica.fruno.com] has joined #lisp 23:59:17 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A185E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]