00:02:18 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-143-213.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 00:02:19 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.204.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:02:54 mon_key` [~user@74-143-70-82.static.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 00:03:13 -!- mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:03:31 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@h-66-167-187-222.nycmny83.static.covad.net] has quit [Quit: RomyRomy] 00:06:00 harish_ [harish@nat/redhat/x-dttqybcmooxzeloh] has joined #lisp 00:06:34 -!- agumonkey [~agu@233.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:07:33 -!- harish_ [harish@nat/redhat/x-dttqybcmooxzeloh] has quit [Client Quit] 00:08:44 harish_ [harish@nat/redhat/x-kxxjyzxnoumuhddr] has joined #lisp 00:08:55 -!- harish_ [harish@nat/redhat/x-kxxjyzxnoumuhddr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:09:36 -!- Bike [~Glossina@65-100-34-187.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: back later] 00:14:41 -!- jin_xi [~workflow@178-83-8-30.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:14:55 Xach: I wanted to destructure in a loop while still having a reference to the whole list. 00:15:11 Came up with a better solution but that was what I wanted. :) 00:15:22 ok 00:16:06 *|3b|* usually just does FOR whole = whatever FOR (a b c) = whole ... 00:16:26 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:16:56 dan64- [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has joined #lisp 00:16:56 -!- dan64- [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:17:09 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 00:21:30 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:23:35 -!- Ralith [~ralith@67.101.126.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:24:20 |3b|: That makes sense too. :) 00:25:38 |3b|: is that similar to AS whole = whatever 00:25:48 *Guthur* only came across AS recently 00:26:16 I was wondering if there was AS. 00:26:22 <|3b|> AS is just a synonym for FOR 00:26:29 heh 00:26:33 <|3b|> (i think) 00:26:33 oh, loop. 00:26:36 Hehe, LOOP is a bit crazy. 00:26:49 didi: it is a language unto itself 00:27:04 so yeah a little bit crazy 00:27:23 and I think it's probably argued as the most on Lispy part of CL 00:27:34 on lispy/unlispy 00:28:08 though maybe that argument could go the other way as well 00:28:33 because it's quite the example of a DSL 00:28:34 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 00:28:37 Nah, yak shaving. 00:28:55 The discussion of lispy/unlispy I mean. 00:31:17 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.162.244] has quit [Quit: tensorpudding] 00:35:05 tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.162.244] has joined #lisp 00:35:17 Errr, I didn't mean to offend anyone, by the way. 00:37:06 naiv [~quassel@ABayonne-552-1-185-81.w109-222.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:39:32 didi: no offence taken I would think 00:39:43 :^) 00:40:49 harish_ [harish@nat/redhat/x-gcisuotjoeorhsrz] has joined #lisp 00:41:10 dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has joined #lisp 00:41:10 -!- dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:41:16 -!- harish_ [harish@nat/redhat/x-gcisuotjoeorhsrz] has quit [Client Quit] 00:43:10 I have completed my IBCL package. It's now in gitorious, next month in quicklisp ;-) http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/ 00:43:43 *redline6561* clicks that 00:43:57 oh, nice! 00:44:18 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:44:43 -!- PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.237.7.137] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:45:11 But you have to load the sources. I'm not sure recompiling the systems will keep the sources in the symbols in the FASL files. So use asdf 'asdf:load-source-op instead of quickload to load system with their sources. 00:45:43 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 00:45:55 Tomorrow, I'll complete the stepper, and then on to debug! 00:46:00 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-106-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:12 gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has joined #lisp 00:46:19 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:46:46 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129093084.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 00:47:44 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 00:48:39 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 00:49:45 One conclusion of this work, is that in CL, we really want to keep the textual source, for all the reader macros (and subsidarily for the indentation, that is the newlines). IBCL keeps the sexp source, which is all is needed to implement a stepper and other similar tools, but would be insufficient for a real IDE. 00:50:31 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-169.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:53:13 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:55:35 ipmonger [~ipmonger@c-68-63-82-226.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:50 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-glmfekrkybvjcrlo] has joined #lisp 00:59:42 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 01:03:01 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@198.24.31.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:03:40 dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has joined #lisp 01:03:40 -!- dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:04:21 -!- disciple [~krishna@117.207.101.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:05:05 -!- vaus [~vaus@180.Red-83-61-39.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: vaus] 01:06:25 dan64 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[~gigamonke@adsl-108-200-140-173.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:39:17 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 05:40:04 lebro [~monx@ool-18babb78.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:07 -!- p_l|repairing-os is now known as p_l|debloating-o 05:42:25 dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has joined #lisp 05:44:22 Daedalos [~Daedalos@wsip-24-249-48-167.ks.ks.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:37 Is NewLisp Comparable to common or is it just a bunch of hype? 05:45:11 the latter 05:45:58 Thanks. 05:47:07 -!- Daedalos [~Daedalos@wsip-24-249-48-167.ks.ks.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:49:00 -!- disciple [~krishna@117.207.101.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:50:08 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:50:45 newlisp? 05:50:47 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-119.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:50:51 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-17-205-251.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:54:16 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 05:54:34 disciple [~krishna@117.207.110.34] has joined #lisp 05:54:53 Is there a better way to force package prefixes to be printed than (let ((*package* (find-package :keyword))) ...)? 05:56:11 paul0 [~paul0@201.47.44.117.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 05:57:40 scottj [~scott@206.212.250.58] has joined #lisp 05:58:29 eni_ [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 06:00:07 -!- lebro [~monx@ool-18babb78.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:00:59 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 06:05:03 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 06:06:50 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:07:38 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:07:55 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has joined #lisp 07:02:02 -!- eni_ [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:04:05 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:05:10 is there an equivalent to perl's next or pythons pass in lisp? 07:05:19 -!- disciple [~krishna@117.207.110.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:05:27 -!- ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:06:25 next is not pass? 07:06:35 disciple [~krishna@117.207.110.34] has joined #lisp 07:06:40 Coroutines? Don't think so. 07:07:23 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 07:07:51 ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has joined #lisp 07:08:52 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-119.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:12:27 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 07:15:20 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:15:51 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:21:39 -!- scottj [~scott@206.212.250.58] has left #lisp 07:22:02 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-122.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:26:05 mofaph [~user@183.17.197.92] has joined #lisp 07:28:50 -!- mofaph [~user@183.17.197.92] has left #lisp 07:31:51 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 07:35:33 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.113.237] has joined #lisp 07:38:23 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-152-11.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined 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[~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 08:18:45 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Client Quit] 08:20:19 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.234.42] has joined #lisp 08:21:13 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 08:24:14 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-ojrqepggxrouchdw] has joined #lisp 08:24:30 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:26:06 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 08:27:04 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:28:49 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:29:26 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:33:38 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 08:33:42 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Client Quit] 08:33:50 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 08:34:17 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 08:34:57 w41_ [~volkov@212.111.79.101] has joined #lisp 08:37:34 add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-35-61.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 08:37:51 -!- w41 [~volkov@212.111.79.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:38:01 wolgo: there are several libraries that implement things like that. series, for example, has generators. 08:38:36 -!- prxq__ is now known as prxq 08:38:59 wolgo: the more general solutions use code walkers, though, making them complex. there are limited non-general solutions as well. google "common lisp" "coroutines" 08:43:07 TimKack [~user@213.208.236.186] has joined #lisp 08:43:10 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:44:21 -!- TimKack [~user@213.208.236.186] has left #lisp 08:45:02 -!- anon119 [~bman@c-67-181-158-121.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:45:46 disciple [~krishna@117.207.110.34] has joined #lisp 08:46:00 -!- w41_ is now known as w41 08:47:16 jtza8 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[~treed@216.105.40.125] has joined #lisp 10:13:13 -!- tessier [~treed@216.105.40.125] has quit [Changing host] 10:13:13 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #lisp 10:16:08 -!- ZabaQ [~johnfredc@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:16:38 ZabaQ [~johnfredc@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 10:18:54 -!- karswell_ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:19:32 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129093084.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:20:42 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.234.42] has joined #lisp 10:22:48 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 10:24:53 -!- joshe [~joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:29:09 karswell_ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:34:17 wakeup_ [~max@xdsl-89-0-143-170.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:36:01 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 10:36:08 -!- loke_erc [~user@c-1756e555.012-14-67626717.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:36:43 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-glmfekrkybvjcrlo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:37:22 elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #lisp 10:37:26 Hey guys! 10:37:27 -!- wakeup [~max@xdsl-89-0-188-246.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 10:37:46 Has anyone else here found Guy Steele's "Common Lisp - The Language" book to be at all useful? 10:37:53 I've found it to be a great reference, at least, in some aspects. 10:37:59 Alongside the Hyperspec. 10:38:18 I.e. It seems to document CLOS better. At least, the CLOS stuff there has a really nice introduction. 10:39:02 elderK: it has nicer (and sloppier) prose. 10:39:13 the spec is tighter and drier. 10:39:29 i think it's worth reading CLtL all the way through 10:39:35 -!- saschakb_ [~skbierm@gateway/tor-sasl/saschakb] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 10:41:23 Aye, I agree. I'm finding CLtL to be easier going in terms of reading. 10:41:53 The spec will be very useful but right now I need a good but detailed reference that's more human friendly. 10:42:27 Any how, how's your day/night going, Xach? 10:42:33 And if anyone else is alive and lurking, you too! 10:42:41 vaus [~vaus@180.Red-83-61-39.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:43:02 elderK: i don't think cltl has much value as a reference 10:43:17 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 10:43:22 it's very important to learn how to look things up in the spec and parse its style 10:43:40 Agreed. 10:45:18 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 10:46:18 elderK, hello 10:47:47 Hey Quadrescence! How's it going? 10:48:30 it's going alright. how are you? 10:49:09 Not bad. A bit tired. 10:49:32 And a little stressed with work and home as the lady we're boarding with wants us out (girlfriend and I.) 10:49:47 But otherwise, great! 10:50:12 elderK, are you working on any projects? 10:50:46 -!- DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:51:19 DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #lisp 10:52:03 One purely for fun, when I have the time. It's a simple game. Think capture the flag in space with crazy weapons and asteroids you can fire on to make them move with momentum and stuff. 10:52:32 Progress is really slow, however, as free time is a rare thing to have unless I stay up super late. 10:52:36 What're you working on? 10:53:29 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.140.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 10:54:40 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.182.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 10:56:16 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:56:33 Quite a bit to keep in mind when you're working with CLOS, it seems. Which is cool. 10:56:43 elderK, recently I've been playing with generating and manipulating x86-64 assembly in Lisp, but that's about it. I'm going a little bit slowly as far as development goes. 10:56:46 I.e. with regards to inheritance and suchlike. 10:57:01 That sounds interesting! 10:57:22 I was working on a compiler for Scheme some time ago but the project stalled because I had so little time to work on it I couldn't get anything done. 10:58:27 I only got as far as writing a NFA->DFA->mDFA generator which would generate lex tables for various things. And a sexp-parser that constructed an annotated tree in memory. 10:58:39 ie: these things are symbols, this is a string and it's contents are stored here, bla bla. 11:00:09 I had a lot of fun considering read-macros and the like. Like, a recursive read macro in Lisp. Does the Lisp interpreter or compiler generate a recursive process when it invokes the function to do the reading or does it somehow turn it into an iterative process? 11:00:46 That's not quite clear. I mean... a read macro that allows the macro it reads to be embedded in the macro it reads. 11:00:59 like #(#(1 2 3 4) #(1 2 3 4)) 11:01:23 elderK, what do you think? How do you think one can parse: ((1 2) (3 4)) ? 11:01:51 You can do it both ways. 11:02:07 I don't so much mean parsing the reader function for the macro. 11:02:23 I mean when the compiler executes the read-function for a user-created macro. Like, a read-table macro. 11:02:40 If the read-table function they've defined itself calls read. 11:03:15 I guess if they write it stupidly it'll generate a recursive process but if they write it in a tail-call style it could be optimized to be iterative. 11:03:17 :P Sorry, pondering aloud. 11:03:24 It's still exciting to me, you see. 11:05:03 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 11:12:16 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:13:35 hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 11:17:19 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 11:21:06 -!- Guest19591 [~Rajesh@117.203.20.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:25:16 chiguire|m [~chiguire@190.74.117.95] has joined #lisp 11:25:17 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@190.74.117.95] has quit [Changing host] 11:25:17 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 11:25:36 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has 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seconds] 13:05:19 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:11:59 disciple [~krishna@117.207.110.34] has joined #lisp 13:14:29 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-181-61.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:15:38 w41 [~volkov@212.111.79.101] has joined #lisp 13:15:41 pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 13:16:03 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 13:16:07 if A and B are integers, would you expect (EQL A B) or (= A B) to run faster? 13:16:52 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:18:23 pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 13:20:07 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-72-190-112-13.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:21:07 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 13:21:17 eql should be faster. 13:21:51 eql has to compare same type same value. = will have to cast types if they not the same. 13:22:18 (list (eql 1.0 1) (= 1.0 1)) => (nil t) 13:23:01 right... so there probably isn't a reason to ever use = when I know my arguments are both integers? 13:24:53 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-181-61.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:27:07 clop: clarity 13:27:11 clop, in my opinion, cl:= should be used, only because of semantics. The standard says cl:= is used to compare mathematical values. 13:27:26 clop: = will (should) signal error when either value isn't a number. 13:32:53 clop: the problem is that EQL doesn't do any type checking. So if you write (progn (check-type a integer) (check-type b integer) (eql a b)) it's ok, but it would be better to write (= a b), unless you specifically want to exclude 1.0 from 1. 13:33:50 thanks -- this all makes sense 13:34:51 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has quit [Quit: le mieux que je peux] 13:35:41 clop: on the other hand, if you get your integer from functions like cl:position, it's better to use eql since position may also return nil. 13:35:57 also, compilers will generally be able to optimize away many = related checks in cases where the type is well known at compile time 13:36:36 right, so writing something like (= (the integer x) (the integer y)) is probably identical to writing (eql (the integer x) (the integer y)), i imagine 13:36:46 at least if the compiler takes advantage of the declarations 13:36:58 yes 13:37:47 THE doesn't do any type checking, though. It's a promise to the compiler. 13:37:47 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 13:38:53 so not quite identical 13:40:03 wait, how would they not be identical? 13:40:20 you've promised to the compiler in either case that the arguments are integers 13:40:46 so = need not consider any other types to do any conversions and should be able to just check values 13:40:58 and eql shouldn't have to consider, e.g., whether the things are characters 13:41:25 shouldn't either just be a comparison on the integer "guts"? 13:42:15 clop: very many values are of type INTEGER. If you're looking into this for performance, the declarations' effect will probably be negligible. 13:43:28 pkhuong: yes, but the code paths in both eql and = with those THE could be identical. 13:44:40 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:14 harish [~harish@cm108.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 13:47:40 ludston [~user@CPE-58-166-72-98.lnse5.cht.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 13:47:43 kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:50:51 -!- bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:51:01 nanoc [~conanhome@190.15.210.144] has joined #lisp 13:55:13 clop: the difference is that if you pass non-integers to =, it will fail obviously, whereas if you pass non integers to your EQL form there, the results are undefined 13:55:38 if you do pass integers than the code paths are likely to be identical 13:56:29 -!- dnolen [~user@24.199.242.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:59:30 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:59:47 Kron_ [~Kron@59.92.142.135] has joined #lisp 14:00:01 clop: you're right that's it's exactly as undefined when non-integer values are passed in (= (the integer ...) ...), though. 14:01:59 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.38.128] has joined #lisp 14:06:14 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@59.92.142.135] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 14:12:30 -!- rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-204-154.uio.no] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 14:18:31 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:18:39 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:18:56 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 14:19:28 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 14:23:38 -!- hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 14:25:12 Lucien_ [~Lucien@221.127.32.250] has joined #lisp 14:26:08 hi all 14:26:43 hello Lucien_ 14:27:10 ^^ 14:27:33 what brings you here ? 14:28:45 oh....someone tell me lisp is a good language to learn... 14:29:03 so I want to know any good way to do that 14:29:37 sorry my english is bad, I hope you can understand what I said= = 14:30:11 find some tutorials on google, read some books (PCL, Little Schemer, Land of Lisp), write a few simple programs, read some articles, reflect; wash, rinse, repeat 14:30:31 I liked this book: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 14:31:29 important part will be to find a program to tickle your fancy or scratch an itch so that you will be motivated to continue learning. 14:31:45 a program worth writing. 14:31:59 Mostly, read books and code for yourself. I've seen too many people get stuck in contemplation mode, always reading and writing posts on the nature/awesomeness/failings of lisp. 14:32:19 isn't there a translation of PCL? 14:32:21 pkhuong: agreed 14:32:35 Lambda, The Ultimate Procrastination 14:33:01 Speaking of, is there a magic bullet GUI library that I haven't found yet for CL? 14:33:30 CAPI seems like the ticket. 14:33:40 It's a silver bullet, though, so you have to buy it. 14:33:56 Forty-3 [~seana11@198.24.31.70] has joined #lisp 14:34:51 lebro [~monx@ool-18babb78.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:31 thank you^^ I worried that I will have no comment before come here, but I wrong 14:35:44 Lucien_: "lisp is a good language to learn" 14:36:03 Xach: I think the personal edition of LispWorks includes CAPI 14:36:08 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 14:36:26 news to me 14:36:32 Lucien_: what's your programming background. what languages do you know? 14:37:02 I remember running examples, but I've only played with lispworks for a total of an hour or so 14:37:16 -!- rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:37:18 ludston: i haven't found many good libraries tbh. at least, not as good as they could be. the simplest seemed to be ltk, but i suspect we could do much better. 14:37:44 re : I have some knowledge about python....a beginner 14:38:09 Lucien_: what do you know about python? have you used exceptions, for instance? 14:39:01 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 14:39:09 Lucien_: PCL is designed for someone who already programmed before. For a nice guide through some of the basics, Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation will be nice as well 14:39:20 Lucien_: if you know python, lisp won't be difficult to learn, but it is different, so you'll need to approach it with fresh eyes, don't judge, just learn. 14:39:30 Lucien_: probably not by itself, but those two books are free and you can use them together 14:40:12 judgeing lisp prematurely was the No 1 reason it took me so damn long 14:40:26 Lucien_: have a look at http://cliki.net/ all the good resources are listed there. 14:40:47 -!- harish [~harish@cm108.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:40:59 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:41:09 Lucien_: notament: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~idurand/enseignement/PFS/Book/programmation.html 14:42:16 Xach: Other than it's cost/closed source, does it have any gotchas? 14:42:20 first it was, "it's not as easy as python", then it was "it's not as simple as scheme", then it was "it's not as modern as clojure", all a waste of time, fresh eyes are essential. 14:43:12 ludston: I haven't really used it. I base my comment on the fact that every commercial CL program I know of that has a GUI uses CAPI. And they seem to look and work pretty well. And the support from LispWorks seems pretty great. 14:43:40 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:44:02 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 14:44:24 e.g. Piano, InspireData, SiteGrinder 3, etc 14:44:36 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:45:01 the best portable, cross platform, open source gui library is hunchentoot :) 14:45:25 you just wait, some day commonqt will be the killer toolkit 14:46:03 thank you for your helping^^ 14:47:00 stassats: maybe the qt team can be hired by a CL company 14:47:18 well, don't hold your breath on that one 14:47:19 btw, PCL or Clojure is the good langage for a beginner...like me? I can install it directly? 14:47:38 what's PCL? 14:47:38 PCL is a book. 14:47:52 Oh...sorry= = 14:47:55 if you mean CL, then it's the best! 14:47:56 Common Lisp is a good language for a beginner. 14:48:21 After CL, you only need to learn Haskell, Prolog and Assembler. 14:48:26 Clojure is *Not* a language for a beginner. Or maybe it is... 14:48:49 clojure is bad for beginners, because it has the most useless errors, unless you like java stack traces 14:48:53 pjb: and you'll become an ender? 14:49:49 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-17-205-251.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:55 Depends on when the singularity will occur. 14:50:01 also its very young and changes fast 14:50:22 -!- cfdm [~user@222.235.51.254] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:50:34 I went to wiki to get more about CL...there is so many implementations, which one is better? 14:50:36 cfdm [~user@222.235.51.254] has joined #lisp 14:50:49 None. 14:50:55 the one you know best 14:50:55 Try: what-implementation is at telnet://clis.informatimago.com:8101 14:50:57 joast [~rick@76.178.135.192] has joined #lisp 14:51:03 Lucien_: what OS are you on? If on unix, start with SBCL 14:51:05 But to learn, clisp, ccl or sbcl are good. 14:51:14 pavelpenev: Imagining if clojure had better stack traces, documentation and an easier to set up environment... Would it then be a good language for beginners, or would its immutable, functional only, etc. featureset make it too difficult for newbies? 14:52:08 if clojure was good, it could be good for newbies to learn, imo. 14:53:18 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-143-213.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 14:53:20 blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:39 ludston: no worse than scheme i think, I started around 1.0, and it took me ages to get started, because I had to learn what a classpath was, then I spend days trying to set up vim with it, then I spend a week learning emacs... 14:54:11 leiningen didn't exist either 14:57:47 I get jealous and confused when peers tell me at their Uni's they used scheme and it sucked. 14:58:20 as everything at universities does 14:58:39 RomyRomy [~stickycak@pool-108-46-146-198.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:42 ludston: my uni used scheme and it sucked, but prolog sucked even more, so my classmates hate it less :) 14:59:09 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 14:59:38 Why is IT education terrible? 14:59:47 but these are people who spend 5 semesters learning the minutiae of C++ programming. 15:00:02 ludston: for the same reason all education sucks 15:00:41 pavelpenev: Which is? 15:02:24 higher education is essentially a system from the middle ages, it didn't age well 15:02:59 -!- ZabaQ [~johnfredc@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:03:27 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:03:44 paradoja [~paradoja@acceso-cmp174-200.lpa.idec.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:46 but IT is especially bad because it got popular very quickly, and it got filled with hacks 15:05:26 and I'm not talking about just the education system, but the industry as well 15:05:47 pavelpenev: which uni did you go to? 15:05:48 but we're getting OT 15:06:18 pavelpenev: education gives you time to learn things by yourself. even if the system isn't perfect, it kind-of helps. i've also learned a few things because i *had* to, and in hindsight they are good things to know. so it may not all be bad, even though the institutions may be suboptimal. 15:06:22 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.39.12] has joined #lisp 15:06:53 pavelpenev: and to bring it back to lisp. i find it reasonable to believe that i wouldn't have learned lisp if i'd have learned to program in a company. 15:07:47 optikalmouse: I'm currently stuck at the University of Shumen, Bulgaria, because I sucked at math in high-school :) Great school if you want to learn orthodox theology, mediocre at best for engineering and CS 15:08:34 orthodox theology isn't a bad fit for common lisp 15:08:34 madnificent: I agree, being at a mediocre school gives me a lot of free time, and I'm utilizing it well, i hope 15:08:57 madnificent: I didn't go to school. I learned lisp by arguing with Fade and losing. 15:09:23 and I've had a few very good classes, graph theory was good, most math was good, most CS sucked 15:09:46 pavelpenev: ah ok. there's few unis it seems that use Scheme. 15:10:14 I've been pretty damn happy with the maths classes. 15:10:21 optikalmouse: If you call half a semester "use" I guess we do :) 15:10:38 Something to be said for a class with a couple of thousand years history behind it. 15:10:59 as far as learning goes, throw them with the sharks is best approach imho, or writing software => talking about writing software 15:11:30 ludston: PG said in a talk that you have to go to the very bottom of a university ranking list to find a bad math department, there seems to be some truth in that. 15:11:48 maxm: which leads to cargo culting 15:12:58 I've had bad math teachers, they seemed to be competent mathematicians, unlike my bad CS teachers 15:13:07 heh 15:14:00 "computer science" my ass. is there also a "car science" or a "table science"? 15:14:20 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483AAAE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:14:27 carpentry science? 15:14:35 H4ns: They call it Engineering 15:14:41 H4ns: we call it informatics, but since this is an english channel :) 15:14:41 ludston: rightfully so 15:14:54 pavelpenev: so do we. i'm just making fun of the americans :D 15:14:54 off-topic: #lisp is far more interesting than other channels. I work with django but I'm never really etmpted to go into #django heh 15:15:27 optikalmouse: fuck I hate working with django. feel sorry for you. ;) 15:15:41 that's because Lisp is more interesting 15:15:48 stassats: by far 15:16:20 stassats: I like to think it's because we're all just chill people. 15:16:29 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@pool-108-46-146-198.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: RomyRomy] 15:16:53 #lisp and chill in the same sentence? you haven't been here for long then 15:17:10 H4ns: computer science classes here are as chalk/blackboard as math. 15:17:33 stassats: Stop attacking my self-deceptions! 15:17:35 ludston: I'd like to think its because we try to educate ourselves despite our schooling, and chill is the last word I'd use to describe myself, maniac-depressive is better :) 15:19:02 pkhuong: no doubt. i'm not sure if much of the science aspects of computing is very useful in applied computing. most of it is engineering, and fashion. 15:19:11 -!- zodiac1111_ [~zodiac111@124.90.135.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:19:47 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:20:08 H4ns: inventing algorithms with low O complexity which are useless in practice sounds very much like science 15:20:09 H4ns: I wouldn't call that aspect a science either (similar situation as math), but I'm fairly certain most of it is useless for paying jobs. 15:20:29 j_king: why do you dislike django? 15:20:37 stassats: :D 15:20:47 optikalmouse: you can discuss that at #django 15:20:50 debugging seems like a scientific process to me. 15:20:52 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.34.27.192] has joined #lisp 15:20:53 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.34.27.192] has quit [Changing host] 15:20:53 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:21:00 j_king: join me in #django! 15:21:06 never. :p 15:21:10 ;p 15:21:14 pavelpenev: do you get to learn much debugging technique in you CS courses? 15:21:36 shotgun debugging :) mash the keyboard till it works. 15:21:39 pavelpenev: or, asked the other way round, could you not study biology to learn the same skills needed to successfully debug things? 15:21:47 >Debugging is more like a sport 15:22:05 ludston: in that it is exhausting? 15:22:25 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 15:22:58 investigating the time/space constraints of monotone functors on algebraic lattices sounds fascinating to me, but real-world CL gets real things done. 15:23:42 H4ns: more like requires skills 15:24:00 -!- Ralith [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:24:13 stassats: That one 15:25:02 It's nothing like art, because you're not producing anything tangible, but it still hurts. 15:25:03 ykm [~user@182.237.171.112] has joined #lisp 15:25:37 ludston: are martial arts not art? thats very western of you :) 15:25:57 i like debugging, it's like solving puzzles 15:26:20 i find debugging very rewarding, too. i dislike the aspect that i'm usually dealing with my own failure, though :) 15:26:28 stassats: awesome. I have menty here for your to take if you want :-) 15:26:34 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-17-205-251.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 15:26:59 And the bugs aren't even made by you! They're made by a whole group of equally incompetent people 15:27:14 well, i usually debug code not written by me 15:27:22 same 15:27:25 (because i myself don't produce bugs, of course) 15:27:25 for me 15:27:33 stassats: clearly. 15:27:44 debugging other people's code is okay. the problem is when you need to blame them. 15:28:00 optikalmouse: do you? 15:28:05 stassats: As for myself, I'm very humble, and I would definitely admit to writing bugs and all the mistakes I'd make, if I ever made any. 15:28:12 I guess I don't like solving puzzles either. I like building things, not using trial and error trying to figure out why the library some random wrote doesn't work the way it's documented. 15:28:13 git takes care of all the blaming I need. 15:29:04 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 15:29:12 although, investigating esoteric algorithms can lead to real-world wins. math does scale quite nicely. 15:29:24 H4ns: repeated violations of the coding standards = perfect reason to blame 15:29:39 ludston: random trial and error is frustrating, but the scientific process of producing a hypothesis, devising an experiment, and then revising your hypothesis is very rewarding 15:30:34 optikalmouse: when fixing bugs, it is not time to blame. that is what code review is for, and it is not called "blaming" but "reviewing" 15:30:41 optikalmouse: (in my ideal world) :) 15:31:02 pavelpenev: I've never thought of it that way. I'll give it a shot and see if it makes me happier. 15:31:07 H4ns: annnnd that's probably why I didn't make it through the 3 month probationary period at that job ;) 15:31:22 j_king: I find the nice constant factor of flat arrays can absorb a lot of stupidity. 15:31:23 ludston: read Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance, best book on debugging ever. 15:31:46 -!- nkkarthik [~nkkarthik@smtpbt.pramati.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.1.50.1] 15:32:00 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-164-179.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:32:19 optikalmouse: i find it hard to get into a shop, be assigned to bugs and then still have respect for the people that produced the bugs that i fixed. that is a real challenge 15:32:22 pkhuong: until you get into distributed and parallel systems, afaik 15:32:50 dmx [~dmx@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:58 ludston: it doesn't make you happier, but calmer, like you've achieved a balance with the machine, when you are out of balance, the machine is buggy, when the machine is buggy, you are out of balance. Debugging is a form of meditation 15:33:25 k0001 [~k0001@200.41.137.37] has joined #lisp 15:33:29 it's no use being in balance if the customer is angry at you 15:33:59 -!- agumonkey [~agu@233.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:34:52 H4ns: this, this exactly. it's a good way to learn the codebase because you end up being exposed to it all. but no comments, no coding standards, no unit testing, etc. etc. 15:35:00 dlowe: consider the customers as part of the machine, and his anger as imbalance :) 15:35:17 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has left #lisp 15:35:21 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 15:35:29 i care about my bank balance more 15:36:01 optikalmouse: it also helps to not assume anything when entering a new development shop. i've rarely seen shops which hold up even to low expectations in terms of development process. 15:36:16 -!- k0001 [~k0001@200.41.137.37] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:36:58 tensorpudding [~michael@99.23.124.125] has joined #lisp 15:37:30 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:37:57 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-181-61.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:38:41 k0001 [~k0001@200.41.137.37] has joined #lisp 15:41:41 ehu` [~ehuels@109.35.205.75] has joined #lisp 15:42:24 -!- mike4_ [~mike4_@gateway/tor-sasl/mike4/x-38362156] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:42:24 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:45:09 -!- ehu [~ehuels@31.136.166.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:45:12 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:45:26 Jasko [~tjasko@108.60.121.114] has joined #lisp 15:45:38 mike4_ [~mike4_@gateway/tor-sasl/mike4/x-38362156] has joined #lisp 15:45:56 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 15:48:59 -!- LiamH [~healy@250.sub-70-192-193.myvzw.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:49:14 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:50:27 -!- ludston [~user@CPE-58-166-72-98.lnse5.cht.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:50:40 agumonkey [~agu@233.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:43 -!- ehu` is now known as ehu 16:02:44 Bike [~Glossina@65-100-34-187.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:49 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:04:07 how does one reopoen *standard-output* with a different external-format? 16:05:06 nohow 16:05:33 <|3b|> implementation dependent if at all 16:06:00 :( 16:06:19 and I was hoping you'd slap me around and tell me to go read the hyperspec 16:06:45 <|3b|> might be able to bind it to a new stream, depending on what you are trying to do 16:07:18 (with-open-file (*standard-output* "/dev/null" :direction :output :if-exists :append :external-format :utf-7)) 16:07:25 anon119 [~bman@12.104.144.2] has joined #lisp 16:08:03 -!- SHUPFS [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 16:08:19 *|3b|* was thinking more of wrapping *standard-output* with a flexi-stream on platforms where *standard-output* is bivalent, or opening a new stream on fd 0 (or whichever is stdout) 16:08:40 1 is stdout 16:09:11 you should just start your lisp with the right format 16:09:29 (setf (stream-external-format *standard-output*) some-external-format) may work in some implementations. 16:09:30 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-181-61.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:09:40 clhs stream-external-format 16:09:40 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_stm_ex.htm 16:09:50 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 16:10:13 (not a standard accessor) 16:10:17 Yes. 16:10:29 <|3b|> i think clisp has a way to change it directly, not sure about other platforms, and i think sbcl *standard-output* is bivalent 16:11:08 on sbcl, i've used (sb-sys:make-fd-stream 1 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) :output t) 16:11:11 |3b|: strangely enough it acts bivalent, but claims to be a character stream 16:11:31 and writing bytes to it is about 20% slower than writing characters to it 16:11:44 -!- kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:12:13 though that may be a difference between (write-sequence) and (write-string) 16:12:45 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 16:14:00 but what are you trying to do? 16:14:00 on a side-note, it's much easier to get fast code in sbcl with strings than with (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (*)); (partly because the standard has more functions for operating on strings and the alexandria versions for byte-vectors are not as fast) 16:15:30 if only you are talking about ascii 16:16:22 stassats: I was hoping to force the right encoding at runtime, but I guess I'll have to just detect and fall back on babel 16:17:09 tritchey [~tritchey@108.60.121.114] has joined #lisp 16:19:27 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:19:37 stassats: with-output-to-string is very, very fast. There is no equivalent for byte-vectors in the standard; alexandria has one, but it's slower than with-output-to-string, even with non-ascii characters. 16:20:02 that's just one example. 16:20:06 well, if you want fast, don't use with-output-to-string 16:20:16 why? It's fast 16:20:21 at least on sbcl 16:20:26 compared to what? 16:20:47 it's slow compared to filling a preallocated string/vector 16:21:22 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.38.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:21:56 how is the alexandria equivalent called? 16:23:30 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:23:52 stassats: hmm I thought it was in alexandria but I'm not seeing it there; searching for it now 16:23:56 atsidi [~nkraft_@mail.tai.edu] has joined #lisp 16:24:07 flexistreams maybe? 16:24:15 maybe 16:24:21 flexi-streams is slow in general 16:24:27 simplestreams ? 16:25:07 whatever it was, it was actually faster to convert to a string with #'code-char then do with-output-to-string then convert back with #'char-code 16:25:40 but a if you know the size beforehand, don't use with-output-to* 16:26:06 no, I mean convert each time I had stuff to output 16:26:46 then at the end convert back 16:27:30 i got that, but what are you trying to do with all that? 16:27:31 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 16:27:56 joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:17 This was all about a year ago, and I don't use strings anymore, I just rolled my own byte-vector code for doing it quickly 16:28:25 it was just a tangent 16:28:52 And it was for a library to read/write tnetstrings 16:29:00 http://tnetstrings.org/ 16:30:12 where is it located? 16:30:26 https://github.com/jasom/tnetstring/ 16:30:32 it needs some cleanup 16:30:34 badly 16:30:47 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 16:30:53 but it works well enough for my uses 16:31:45 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 16:32:59 boyscare1 [~bm3719@muze.x.rootbsd.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:26 -!- dmx [~dmx@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:33:26 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:33:26 -!- naeg 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#lisp 16:53:06 -!- dmx` [~dmx@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:53:09 jasom: http://paste.lisp.org/display/130921 16:56:04 -!- atsidi [~nkraft_@mail.tai.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving, leaving, gone...] 16:56:33 isn't entirely safe with sb-unicode 16:56:39 but it's fast 17:00:45 Yuuhi [benni@p5483AAAE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:07 stassats: isn't base-char the same as standard-char in newer sbcl? 17:02:25 no 17:03:03 add^_ [~add^_@c-2ec2a1df-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 17:03:05 and you're not using standard-char 17:03:40 (typep (code-char 255) 'base-char) 17:03:44 nil 17:04:27 255 is not ascii 17:04:58 right, but my dumb-byte-char needs to be reversible for arbitrary 8-bit input 17:05:42 and it can't do utf-8 since blobs in tnetstrings are not defined to be any particluar encoding 17:05:56 but blobs can be used as dictionary keys 17:06:30 -!- PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has quit [Quit: PuercoPop] 17:07:46 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:08:29 I settled for using code-char/char-code since it is fast and reversible 17:09:32 maxm- [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has joined #lisp 17:09:58 I don't know if it is required that there be character codes from [0-255] but I've not yet run into a lisp implementation that doesn't have those 17:10:06 so it is portable enough 17:10:07 -!- maxm [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:11:27 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:12:12 phao [phao@177.146.141.83] has joined #lisp 17:12:21 kind of off topic, but any chance someone here uses J? 17:12:29 (the editor from the ABCL guys) 17:12:50 ABCL has its own editor? Impressive. 17:12:52 nope 17:13:06 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-233-212.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:13:10 read about it but didn't come to install it yet.... 17:13:14 Kron_ [~Kron@59.92.142.135] has joined #lisp 17:13:40 it looks great actually 17:14:12 but I am having a problem, that it doesn't put in the text some characters I type 17:14:14 like ' or ` 17:14:33 it does put them in dialogs 17:14:43 I can search for ', but I cannot type it in the text buffer.. 17:16:57 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 17:18:10 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:18:30 ohman 17:19:24 jasom: that's possible too, but i'll leave it up to you 17:19:32 of course, it's better not to use strings at all 17:19:46 -!- add^_ [~add^_@c-2ec2a1df-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 17:20:33 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.234.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:20:34 couldn't get nda and some other extensions to work faithfully for me..... 17:20:53 i'm not much into java, it gets pretty fast pretty complex.... 17:21:29 samuel__98 [~dark_matt@26.Red-83-38-84.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:39 tho i think i could setup jss.... 17:21:45 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 17:21:56 don't even know what it does, some embedding stuff or so.... 17:24:47 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:25:45 -!- maxm- is now known as maxm 17:28:54 -!- ykm [~user@182.237.171.112] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:28:56 PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.237.7.137] has joined #lisp 17:29:13 -!- samuel__98 [~dark_matt@26.Red-83-38-84.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:29:48 rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:22 -!- Natch [~Natch@c-1dcce155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:32:14 PuercoPop_ 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Rajesh is now known as Guest14438 18:59:41 mritz_ [~textual@cpe-70-112-3-176.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:01:03 ameoba [~sean@c-24-22-33-249.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:07 -!- ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has left #lisp 19:03:19 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:03:28 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:03:46 -!- disciple [~krishna@117.207.110.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:07:12 sellout42 [~Adium@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:59 disciple [~krishna@117.207.110.34] has joined #lisp 19:13:06 Eulo [~Eulo@78-72-37-188-no21.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 19:13:20 so I'm trying to use ecl to compile eos (since I want to play around with compiling a library, and I guess having less dependencies helps?) and I don't know what to do at all. Do I compile each file independently? Or is there something nice that lets me say "here's the asd, you figure it out?" 19:13:50 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-237-001.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:20 -!- mritz_ [~textual@cpe-70-112-3-176.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:14:22 fronglong: I usually use (ql:quickload "eos") 19:14:47 Or do you mean "compiling" in the sense of producing some C-style shared library? 19:15:39 Oddity [~Oddity@d75-156-95-248.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:40 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@d75-156-95-248.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:15:40 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 19:16:07 *|3b|* thought ecl had some thing like "heres the asd, you figure it out" 19:16:09 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 19:16:54 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 19:17:08 |3b|: Yeah, there's a ASDF build-op  it's possible I even wrote it, but I can't remember. 19:17:21 Back when I was using ECL at Amazon. 19:18:40 you what ?? 19:18:48 :D 19:19:04 Way back when. Before I implemented enough supporting stuff to switch to SBCL. 19:19:07 <|3b|> yeah, that or http://ecls.sourceforge.net/new-manual/re55.html are probably what i was thinking of 19:19:45 |3b|: There seems to be some unbalanced parens there ;) 19:21:24 <|3b|> yeah, that does look a bit off 19:27:11 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:29:22 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:30:43 -!- vaus [~vaus@180.Red-83-61-39.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: vaus] 19:33:55 nha [~prefect@koln-5d815034.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:03 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 19:46:37 zort- [~eitan@bas1-toronto07-1176315793.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:46:57 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.133.125] has left #lisp 19:51:59 Is parentheses British and parens American? 19:52:21 Kvaks: "parens" is just less typing ;) 19:53:33 Oh. It looks weird and ugly to me as a non-native English speaker. 19:53:55 -!- Scheisselstadt [Scheissels@204.12.223.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:54:41 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:54:54 Kvaks: I thought all of English looked weird and ugly to non-native speakers ;) 19:55:19 <|3b|> (and a lot of it looks that way to native speakers too :p ) 19:55:26 Agreed. 19:56:01 A few of the people, perhaps. The language is OK. 19:57:44 Any ABCL developers here, by chace? 19:58:05 Alternatively, how do I submit patches? 19:58:14 Preferrably without subscribing to lists. 19:58:58 ASau: sure. 19:59:22 ASau: you could try logging a ticket or mailing one of the devs privately, or paste yoru patch on lisppaste. 19:59:27 and tell me about it. 19:59:33 or you could go to #abcl :-) 20:00:46 -!- Guest14438 [~Rajesh@117.203.22.180] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:01:38 -!- LiamH [~healy@250.sub-70-192-193.myvzw.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:02:24 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128198062.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 20:03:36 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.182.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:05:25 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 20:07:07 uh... what am I screwing up here? I already installed quicklisp in sbcl, but it seems like that is preventing me from running it in ecl? 20:07:09 https://gist.github.com/3298111 20:07:27 fronglong: you don't have to install it twice. 20:07:41 fronglong: you can just do e.g. ecl -load ~/quicklisp/setup.lisp 20:07:51 then (ql:add-to-init-file) to have it load when ecl starts, if you like 20:09:39 Xach: thanks! 20:10:55 _travis_ [~nonya@c-98-244-123-185.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:41 -!- lcc [~lcc-pi@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:11:44 no problem 20:16:50 -!- les [moreorles@fsf/member/les] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:17:56 les [moreorles@fsf/member/les] has joined #lisp 20:22:19 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:23:18 antgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-bnylhksdesobzajf] has joined #lisp 20:23:59 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.234.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:28:04 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@218.195.197.77.rev.sfr.net] 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[dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:48:35 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:49:37 -!- Bike [~Glossina@207-224-21-198.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:50:52 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:51:10 -!- fantazo_ [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:51:19 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-198-46.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:22 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:43 dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has joined #lisp 21:54:22 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:55:56 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:56:34 Xach: hi. Could you tell me when you last updated the downloads stats temporary page? 21:56:45 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:51 Xach: I'm trying to see how many packages ABCL can now compile from the top of the list down. 21:57:25 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 21:57:46 dnolen [~user@65.14.229.26] has joined #lisp 21:58:11 phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:58:12 -!- phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Changing host] 21:58:12 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 21:58:54 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@201.76.171.125] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:00:30 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 22:02:17 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Client Quit] 22:03:04 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@198.24.31.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:03:16 -!- lebro [~monx@ool-18babb78.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:04:17 ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:07:35 what's the url for that? 22:07:38 i can check the http header 22:07:54 http://xach.com/tmp/downloads.txt 22:09:52 I'm all the way down to metatilities-base on that list with only cffi and the closer-mop/related packages not working on ABCL. 22:10:34 that's 4 or 5 out of 34 not working. Much better than before. 22:10:50 and when Rudi finishes submitting his closer-mop patch, it should even get better. 22:11:20 we should be able to run roughly the same packages that SBCL has in the top 50 as well. 22:13:51 Xach: is there a way to list all packages in quicklisp that depend on some other package ? 22:14:12 fe[nl]ix: not directly 22:14:21 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:14:42 I'm surprised to still see arnesi there 22:14:45 fe[nl]ix: you can iterate through the results of ql-dist:provided-systems and check the results of ql-dist:required-systems for each 22:14:50 joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:05 thanks 22:15:11 fe[nl]ix: I don't remove projects, usually. 22:15:49 -!- dnolen [~user@65.14.229.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:16:17 ehu: that was from february of 2011 22:16:26 heh. 22:16:29 can you update? 22:16:36 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:16:38 or do you have an update elsewhere? 22:17:32 ehu: i'll try 22:18:07 great! it's been one of the main ways for us to check how we're doing on "usability" within the lisp ecosystem. 22:19:41 phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:19:42 -!- phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Changing host] 22:19:42 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 22:20:48 quicklisp works with clisp well enough, yeah? 22:21:10 yes 22:21:23 ehu: http://xach.com/tmp/2012-stats.txt 22:21:57 thanks. the ecosystem has changed :-) 22:22:12 -!- optikalmouse [~user@gw.trapeze.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:24:33 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c3f22.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:24:47 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-143-213.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 22:25:59 -!- nha [~prefect@koln-5d815034.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:27:21 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A18E1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:28:48 momo-reina [~user@122.179.94.58] has joined #lisp 22:29:48 Xach: have you received a gold medal already? We should plan something for the next conference 22:30:10 dang, my libraries are in the bottom 10. 22:30:19 Bottom ten of what? 22:30:51 -!- punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Quit: punee] 22:30:57 Quadrescence: my implementation is in the bottom 10... 22:30:58 gold metal 22:31:01 2012-stats 22:32:26 What's com.informatigo ? Do I have a misnamed asd? 22:32:41 Quadrescence: at least you have libraries, all i have is a hacks/ folder, a dozen scratch.lisp files and a notebook filled with bad essays about lisp :) 22:33:04 an aspiring PG 22:33:14 *p_l|setup* got barely done stuff that is under licenses prohibiting opening 22:33:17 pavelpenev, the secret is to pretend your hacks are libraries and send them to Xach 22:33:41 pjb: my fault. i fixed it in later updates. 22:34:08 I hope with quicklisp, we'll stop seeing monolithic libraries that Do Everything (tm). 22:34:41 Quadrescence: there will always be NIH-syndrome 22:34:46 they're still sprouting 22:35:03 Xach, do i hold the record for smallest library, or what 22:35:10 hmm. too bad cl-test-grid isn't using ABCL-1.1.0-dev 22:35:16 Xach: what do those stats represent? 22:35:23 Guthur: download counts 22:35:34 Quadrescence: also the common lisp package system encourages coarse grain namespacing in general. 22:35:57 Quadrescence: which monolithic libraries ? 22:36:00 Xach: for all of 2012? 22:36:04 Guthur: yes 22:36:08 fe[nl]ix, alexandria :D 22:36:28 Quadrescence: that one-file string-case is probably pretty close ;) 22:36:38 Xach: thanks again. night. 22:37:05 Quadrescence: alexandria is tiny 22:37:07 fe[nl]ix, those container libraries that implement 50 different data structures 22:37:21 fe[nl]ix, yeah but it has several logical, distinct modules 22:37:35 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-106-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:36 trivial garbage is a bit of a surprise, must be used more than I would have guess 22:37:56 Guthur, C++ers miss their destructors. 22:38:00 For example, there's one com.informatimago repository, but there are 43 asd files in it! 22:38:07 (and don't embrace the WITH paradigm) 22:38:16 -!- wakeup_ [~max@xdsl-89-0-143-170.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:38:41 Quadrescence: yep, sometimes finalizers can be tempting, but the WITH really does win out imo 22:38:51 and 272 packages! 22:39:00 wakeup [~max@xdsl-78-35-57-153.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:39:32 trivial garbage is somewhat useful when you're dealing with external data and you want to let the lisp GC take care of cleaning it up when the objects die. 22:39:42 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 22:39:44 <|3b|> for libraries it is nice to have finalizers as a fallback for when users don't use things correctly :) 22:39:46 but in practice, that's probably a bad idea. :) 22:40:50 sykopomp: when developing a small binding to zmq I went that route in the beginning but changed to the WITH model and I don't see it as much extra burden for any users (though there are none tbh) 22:40:58 <|3b|> trivial-garbage also has portable weak hash tables, might be gteting some use for other than finalizers 22:40:58 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:41:19 ah yes, those hash tables are nice :) 22:41:47 are there no other implementations outside of tg 22:41:54 too bad mcclim isn't at the top, eh guys? 22:42:49 Quadrescence: 926. I suppose everyone checks it out once, eheh 22:42:51 <|3b|> trivial-garbage just wraps implementations' weak hash tables and adds a consistent interface 22:43:22 I thought about using weak hash tables to implement clojure like metadata, but i don't think I have any use for it right now. 22:43:39 (ql:quickload :climacs) is my test to see if an operating system + lisp system is up to snuff. :) 22:43:52 fare has a collections lib, iirc, I wonder if he has weak hash 22:44:31 <|3b|> would be hard to implement without implementation support, since it needs to tie into the GC 22:45:33 EQ hashing is also hard to do without implementation support. 22:46:25 Xach, what's the current utility library count? 22:46:39 karlosz [~lambdakne@cpe-67-10-75-19.rgv.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:47:38 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.46] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:47:59 Quadrescence: count 'em http://www.cliki.net/utilities :) 22:48:54 I have a feeling that list is incomplete 22:49:06 it is, it does not include my own 22:49:39 (which I am slowly trying to shove into alexandria, except that's a slower process than I imagined) 22:53:54 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:54:32 setheus [~setheus@cpe-72-190-112-13.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:54:36 mindCrime [~prhodes@c-67-162-98-95.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:41 gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:42 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:54:42 gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has joined #lisp 22:55:03 Quadrescence: hence the multitude of libraries! :-) 22:58:19 setmeaway [setmeaway3@119.201.52.168] has joined #lisp 23:00:57 -!- karlosz [~lambdakne@cpe-67-10-75-19.rgv.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:01:05 Yeah, I've been thinking about the problem a lot, and haven't thought of a satisfactory solution. Alexandria is a good solution in theory, but it's difficult for people to get their stuff added to it -- or at least, that seems to be my experience -- because of other people's judgments about the frivolousness or actual utilitarian value of a particular addition. 23:01:13 karlosz [~lambdakne@cpe-67-10-75-19.rgv.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:01:54 Quadrescence: 13 or so 23:02:04 Quadrescence: peter's ILC talk hinted at a solution 23:02:29 Xach, what is the summary? I forgot if I heard/seen it before. 23:02:44 -!- karlosz [~lambdakne@cpe-67-10-75-19.rgv.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:03:01 karlosz [~lambdakne@cpe-67-10-75-19.rgv.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:03:40 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.113.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:06:43 One problem with library functions is that they belong to a programming style. It's not so much as because a function is "frivolous" as its consistency with the programming style implicit with a library that makes it hard to be adopted. 23:07:35 -!- agumonkey [~agu@233.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:07:45 Give a programming style, you may have a lot of trivial functions that may look frivolous but are actually essential to use that programming style, those idioms. It's better to gather them in their own library, used by the other programs or libraries that use that specific style and those specific idioms. 23:08:04 And now of course, since CL is so maleable, each programmer or each project has its own style! 23:08:10 pjb, an example "frivolous" function I suggested was POSITIVEP which was equivalent to CL:PLUSP, along with NEGATIVEP, NON-POSITIVE-P, NON-NEGATIVE-P, and NON-ZERO-P. 23:08:31 Yes, that's what I mean. 23:08:47 (not (plusp x)) vs (non-positive-p x) ; question of style. 23:09:04 i see 23:09:08 If you use a functional style such as (every (function non-positive-p) seq), it's essential. 23:09:17 If you don't, (not (plusp x)) has advantages. 23:09:30 -!- zort- [~eitan@bas1-toronto07-1176315793.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:09:51 What advantages does the latter have except that it doesn't require the programmer to learn a (trivial) new name? 23:09:57 -!- karlosz [~lambdakne@cpe-67-10-75-19.rgv.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:10:12 It's shorter to type. 23:10:17 karlosz [~lambdakne@cpe-67-10-75-19.rgv.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:10:30 It doesn't require a dependency library. 23:11:37 (another thing I've been hoping QL alleviates is what seems to be a fear of having dependencies) 23:12:19 It should, yes. 23:13:08 nanoc [~conanhome@201.251.103.66] has joined #lisp 23:13:28 Perhaps it's just confirmation bias, but many lispers seem to be scared of having dependencies, perhaps because of the scars left from past systems. Comparatively, Ruby or Python users import everything they get their grubby fingers on. 23:13:49 DataLinkDroid [~DataLink@1.154.137.175] has joined #lisp 23:13:59 blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:05 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:16:10 Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:28 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:18:37 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.234.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:19:31 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 23:19:36 -!- karlosz [~lambdakne@cpe-67-10-75-19.rgv.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:19:58 karlosz [~lambdakne@cpe-67-10-75-19.rgv.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:20:20 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 23:23:15 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 23:24:34 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-17-205-251.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 23:25:10 -!- karswell_ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:25:34 -!- CrazyEddy [~unexpert@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:26:04 dnolen [~user@12.130.125.8] has joined #lisp 23:26:23 -!- karlosz [~lambdakne@cpe-67-10-75-19.rgv.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:26:42 karlosz [~lambdakne@cpe-67-10-75-19.rgv.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:26:42 -!- karlosz [~lambdakne@cpe-67-10-75-19.rgv.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:27:28 karlosz [~lambdakne@cpe-67-10-75-19.rgv.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:29:24 Quadrescence: something like "now it will be easier to coordinate consolidation and deprecation, because there isn't a huge issue with synchronization any more" 23:30:35 ipmonger [~ipmonger@c-68-63-82-226.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:01 -!- karlosz [~lambdakne@cpe-67-10-75-19.rgv.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:33:26 nagato [~stardivin@122.236.248.201] has joined #lisp 23:34:55 whicling [~mike4_@gateway/tor-sasl/mike4/x-38362156] has joined #lisp 23:35:23 karswell_ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:36:11 -!- whicling is now known as mike4 23:36:54 -!- mike4_ [~mike4_@gateway/tor-sasl/mike4/x-38362156] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:39:42 karlosz [~lambdakne@cpe-67-10-75-19.rgv.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:40:26 -!- karlosz [~lambdakne@cpe-67-10-75-19.rgv.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:40:43 karlosz [~lambdakne@cpe-67-10-75-19.rgv.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:41:39 -!- karlosz [~lambdakne@cpe-67-10-75-19.rgv.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:41:49 mritz [~textual@cpe-70-112-3-176.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:42:17 karlosz [~lambdakne@cpe-67-10-75-19.rgv.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:42:29 -!- mike4 is now known as mike4_ 23:42:31 -!- mirTapir [vutral@thinkbase.srv.welterde.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:42:57 mirTapir [vutral@thinkbase.srv.welterde.de] has joined #lisp 23:43:00 -!- karlosz [~lambdakne@cpe-67-10-75-19.rgv.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:43:43 Somebody with a lot of time on his hand could make an inventory of quicklisp (and other) libraries, to produce exhaustive lists of duplicate functionalities. 23:45:22 pjb: tried that with just the utility libraries listed on cliki, gave up very fast. My notes end with: just use Alexandria :) 23:45:31 karlosz [~lambdakne@cpe-67-10-75-19.rgv.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:45:33 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:45:52 -!- karlosz [~lambdakne@cpe-67-10-75-19.rgv.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:46:09 clos [~lambdakne@cpe-67-10-75-19.rgv.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:46:16 _travis_ [~nonya@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:48:31 -!- billitch [~billitch@bastille.ma3.tv] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:50:25 -!- dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:51:28 -!- disciple [~krishna@117.207.110.34] has quit [Quit: zzzZZZ] 23:51:29 lcc [~lcc-pi@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 23:52:04 -!- dnolen [~user@12.130.125.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:54:08 -!- mritz [~textual@cpe-70-112-3-176.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:54:50 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: goog night] 23:55:47 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 23:55:56 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 23:56:35 pavelpenev: there's more to it than alexandria. there's a bunch of stuff that many of us likely define. #'s+ or #'string+ are some of them. i'm sure i'm not the only one with a version of double-quotes and i'm most likely not the only one that bolts a defpage on top of hunchentoot. that's still a very limited set, of which at least the latter shouldn't be in alexandria. 23:56:58 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 23:57:30 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:57:43 agumonkey [~agu@233.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:22 dnolen [~user@12.130.125.8] has joined #lisp 23:59:27 dnolen_ [~user@12.130.125.8] has joined #lisp