00:01:54 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:06:20 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:10:26 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-23-109-205-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:17:04 nanoc [~conanhome@201.251.103.66] has joined #lisp 00:19:35 -!- cfdm [~user@222.235.51.254] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:21:10 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.203.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:21:17 minion: memo for Guthur: If one is implementing CL you can start with any set of primitive that is turing-complete. This is not saying much. The most reasonable would be to start with the whole CL, so you have the minimum amount of work to do. 00:21:17 Remembered. I'll tell Guthur when he/she/it next speaks. 00:23:28 *jasom* hasn't decided if what he just wrote was a cool hack, or evil and should be immediately deleted 00:23:46 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 00:24:16 clambda, which lets you do this: (funcall (clambda :int (:int :int) "int lambda(int x, int y) { return x + y;}") 1 2)) 00:24:28 cfdm [~user@222.235.51.254] has joined #lisp 00:25:22 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:26:36 ISF [~ivan@201.82.158.233] has joined #lisp 00:27:58 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-166-21-1-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:28:46 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:29:13 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:30:07 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-66-65-50-85.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:31:11 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:31:47 huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has joined #lisp 00:35:10 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 00:37:09 <|3b|> jasom: i vote evil, if you have to type the function signature twice like that :p 00:37:41 zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@183.129.147.44] has joined #lisp 00:38:07 ikki [~ikki@189.247.203.4] has joined #lisp 00:38:15 k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 00:39:33 -!- rvirding [u5943@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ggrdnokqlduzbaxl] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 00:42:19 |3b|: the macro could easily generate the argument list to DRY it up. 00:42:44 <|3b|> pkhuong: yeah, that was pretty much the point :) 00:43:28 <|3b|> and the function name, return type, and outer set of braces along the way 00:44:04 -!- camurp0 [~chris@173-80-234-65-krmt.atw.dyn.suddenlink.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:45:28 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 00:46:50 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:26 <|3b|> then just need to add a nice SEXP based format for the body, maybe some type inference, etc :p 00:48:51 haha 00:49:11 good point on the repeating the function signature though 00:49:52 -!- kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:51:14 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@201.251.103.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:58:33 saschakb [~skbierm@p4FEA10DD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 00:59:29 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.203.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:00:16 Vicfred [~Vicfred@201.102.59.224] has joined #lisp 01:00:36 -!- saschakb [~skbierm@p4FEA10DD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 01:02:13 saschakb [~skbierm@p4FEA10DD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 01:02:38 -!- harish [~harish@cm108.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 01:02:49 ikki [~ikki@189.247.203.4] has joined #lisp 01:05:09 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.203.4] has quit [Client Quit] 01:05:21 -!- fsmunoz [~user@bl5-62-180.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:05:33 saschakb_ [~skbierm@p4FEA10DD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 01:05:38 fsmunoz [~user@bl10-232-193.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 01:06:12 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@109.236.137.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:07:29 -!- saschakb [~skbierm@p4FEA10DD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 01:07:57 theBlackDragon [~dragon@109.236.137.35] has joined #lisp 01:08:16 -!- saschakb_ is now known as saschakb 01:08:46 fold [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:09:22 -!- saschakb [~skbierm@p4FEA10DD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 01:11:27 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 01:13:33 saschakb [~skbierm@p4FEA10DD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 01:15:02 rvirding [u5943@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rezueqmyzxujqnap] has joined #lisp 01:15:23 gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:24 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:15:24 gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has joined #lisp 01:18:00 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Quit: (quit :reason 'sleep)] 01:21:16 -!- sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:22:34 -!- saschakb [~skbierm@p4FEA10DD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:22:51 saschakb [~skbierm@p4FEA10DD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 01:29:26 I used defvar to define a variable, but when I use that variable I get: warning: undefined variable: *DAY-SECTION* The spelling is correct, so what could be causing this? 01:30:15 defvare'ed where ? 01:30:16 <|3b|> wrong package, accessing it before it is loaded, etc 01:30:35 export it 01:30:40 or import 01:30:45 <|3b|> unusual reader settings 01:30:56 <|3b|> makunbound after defining it 01:30:59 It is not in a different package. 01:31:42 <|3b|> you are sure it said undefined and not unbound, right? 01:32:03 -!- Kvaks [~quassel@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:32:09 <|3b|> since defvar can define a variable without binding it 01:33:27 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 01:34:12 (defvar *day-section* (get-day-section)) 01:34:49 <|3b|> ok, should be defined and bound after that is evaluated (assuming it doesn't error) 01:34:50 (defvar *day-section*) 01:35:55 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 01:36:40 <|3b|> (and assuming that defvar is cl:defvar or something that behaves the same) 01:37:49 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:40:31 That isn't helping either. Using defparameter instead of defvar also doesn't work. Perhaps I just need to close slime and emacs and start over? 01:41:24 drl: make sure you're in the right package 01:41:48 drl: for one, check that the file you're evaluating the defvar in has an in-package form before the defvar 01:41:53 and that it matches what's in the repl 01:42:45 if you're defining on the repl, inspect 'defvar and check that it's indeed the symbol in the cl package 01:42:54 antifuchs, thanks. I'll check. 01:44:47 sometimes, slime used to silently define variables in a package that I never really found if stuff happens without in-package in a file 01:45:25 I'm not sure what causes that behavior, and it seems random. pretty much trained myself to always always put a (cl:in-package :some-package) as the first form in all my files (: 01:47:40 chu [~chu@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 01:48:37 -!- agumonkey [~agu@85.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:49:16 -!- ebobby [~fms@70-36-138-190.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:52:54 -!- zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@183.129.147.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:53:46 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:55:21 -!- saschakb [~skbierm@p4FEA10DD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:55:33 <|3b|> oh yeah, completely forgot environmental causes in my random guessing, i was just trying to think of things in the spec :( 01:55:37 -!- italic [~em@unaffiliated/italic] has left #lisp 01:56:00 *|3b|* isn't sure why random guessing was requested if you wanted something helpful though 02:01:10 Moving the defvar to the top of the file fixed the problem. 02:01:50 <|3b|> yeah, defining things before you use them can help 02:01:57 unpxre [~unpxre@140.109.127.21] has joined #lisp 02:02:13 -!- unpxre [~unpxre@140.109.127.21] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:02:52 It was defined before use. 02:04:02 Well, at least the defvar was 2 lines before the var was used. 02:04:14 <|3b|> was it at the top level? 02:05:32 harish [~harish@cm108.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 02:05:34 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:42 <|3b|> note that DEFVAR inside a function doesn't define any vars until you call the function 02:06:23 nowhere_man, it was not at top level. So that was the reason? 02:06:36 <|3b|> probably 02:07:10 OK, thanks! 02:08:33 <|3b|> a lot (maybe all?) of the macros that define things have side effects at sompile time to tell the compiler about whetever they defined, but only when compiled as 'top level form's 02:08:45 <|3b|> *compile time 02:08:47 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:09:53 -!- BrianRice [~water@71-217-103-218.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:13:45 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:19:23 -!- harish [~harish@cm108.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:24:20 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:25:30 Forty-Two [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:58 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@201.102.59.224] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:28:20 Vicfred 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02:39:18 Hello all 02:40:11 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:40:24 hello ravster 02:42:50 azmenthe [~patrick@24-148-58-13.c3-0.lem-ubr1.chi-lem.il.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 02:44:38 intasuck [~intasuck@rrcs-67-78-80-247.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:52:34 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 02:52:49 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:49 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-229-92.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 02:55:59 hitecnologys [~No_Name@46.233.206.254] has joined #lisp 03:04:07 -!- benny [~user@i577A836E.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:04:19 zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@183.129.147.44] has joined #lisp 03:05:29 -!- jackhammer|AFK is now known as jackhammer2022 03:05:38 -!- ravster [~user@184.175.28.107] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:06:37 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has 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BountyX [~andrew@76.14.88.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:46:47 nascent [~callen@ip-64-134-234-146.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 04:46:59 is it acceptable to ask sbcl questions here? 04:47:22 Archenoth [~Archenoth@96.51.223.95] has joined #lisp 04:47:32 I think so, if noone can help there's a mailing list 04:48:04 I have a seemingly nooby-question, but I'm trying to bridge the gap in my understanding of macros between what most materials seem to explain, and what I really want to do. 04:48:49 I'm following Seibel's PCL, and in the third chapter he has a record database composed of what I...think are assoc lists using the syntax :key value 04:49:00 I noticed that the code was somewhat repetitious. 04:49:10 pardon the paste: (defun make-cd (title artist rating ripped) (list :title title :artist rating :ripped ripped)) 04:49:28 we have paste.lisp.org for long things. 04:49:37 luckily it's not long, but I apologized anyway. 04:49:47 that example is actually wrong, but moving along. 04:49:48 Oh, I thought you were doing more. 04:49:53 you're typing each noun three times 04:49:59 -!- Archenoth [~Archenoth@96.51.223.95] has left #lisp 04:49:59 in the arguments, as the key, and as the value. 04:50:27 Archenoth [~Archenoth@96.51.223.95] has joined #lisp 04:50:29 I can't seem to apply what's explained about macros in PCL to actually eliminate this redundancy, how do I inject syntax (:) into the unevaluated forms the defmacro returns? 04:50:44 you might call it a generic make-assoc macro or something. 04:51:29 that's not really idiomatic. you'd have to build up the keyword yourself, I guess. 04:52:09 is my attempting to macro-ify this not idiomatic or is the code Seibel wrote not idiomatic? 04:52:23 __dict__ [~jake@c-24-22-211-63.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:52:28 it's for the purpose of understanding the limitations of macros, not for actually using this code. 04:52:29 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:52:43 your macroifying it. though the code is not something that comes up much. (and it's a plist) 04:53:13 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-124-178.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:53:14 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-124-178.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 04:53:14 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 04:53:27 Bike: where could I find materials on how to conquer a syntactic issue like this with maros? 04:53:30 macros* 04:53:37 -!- intasuck [~intasuck@rrcs-67-78-80-247.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:53:39 the problem seems to be the reification of this plist syntax. 04:53:49 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:53:56 are you up to symbols yet? it's not exactly a syntax problem. 04:53:59 intasuck [~intasuck@rrcs-67-78-80-247.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:55:04 nascent: for the macro you could generate the keyword symbols at macroexpansion time. http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/c_symbol.htm 04:57:18 Bike: make-symbol seems promising, thank you. 05:01:48 setmeaway [setmeaway3@118.45.149.206] has joined #lisp 05:06:47 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-174.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:06:49 nascent: some other example at http://paste.lisp.org/display/130621 although probably a bit "dirty" 05:12:48 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.158.233] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:13:25 phadthai: I'd have to convert it to &rest, but that is instructive, thank you. 05:13:36 phadthai: I appreciate you helping me to understand what I can do here. 05:13:49 er, wait, I misread. sorry. 05:17:50 Kron_ [~Kron@84.255.140.198] has joined #lisp 05:19:32 for more complex things, it's often best to define functions that create complex symbol lists, then a macro calling that function 05:20:08 it's very easy for complex macros to become unreadable 05:20:43 asvil [~asvil@178.120.128.238] has joined #lisp 05:20:45 i.e. multiple levels of escaping etc 05:23:22 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 05:23:58 and of course the end result would be the same, with those functions called macroexpansion time in compile-time, not at runtime 05:24:07 s/called/called at/ 05:24:28 I think that your question was a general common lisp one, not an sbcl one, btw :) 05:24:45 and that's perfectly on topic 05:25:25 I know, I just didn't want to accidentally trip into something imp specific and get called out 05:25:37 I've been in some intensely particular/finicky channels for that sort of thing. 05:25:52 You can ask implementation-specific questions here anyway, much of the time. If not there is #sbcl. 05:26:29 -!- SHUPFS [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:28:28 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.102.70.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:29:42 elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #lisp 05:30:06 one of the reasons why I said that the macro might be "dirty" is that there's a difference between make-symbol and intern... intern can "pollute" the current package with symbols, make-symbol can create symbols without interning them, it often doesn't make a difference, but sometimes it does 05:30:07 -!- elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has left #lisp 05:30:34 i.e. if you use (apropos 'foo) you're also causing the FOO symbol to be interned, vs (apropos '#:foo) 05:31:25 in which case a second apropos foo would also report that symbol 05:33:02 in this case we needed a symbol for the function name, which has to be interned anyway, and keyword symbols, which are also symbols which have to be interned into the keyword package 05:37:30 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 05:43:10 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:43:39 huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has joined #lisp 05:44:55 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:50:27 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-2-5.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 05:53:23 what's considered the best way to build GUI apps with Common Lisp? 05:54:20 I noodled around for a cocoa toolkit and didn't actually find anything. 05:54:58 nascent: right now CommonQT is probably best bet outside of Macs 05:54:59 on macs, CCL got pretty good Obj-C bindings 05:55:19 then there is cl-gtk2 if I remember 05:55:39 I don't know current state of cl-gtk2, but it was pretty good to 05:55:40 *too 05:55:59 gtk ain't a good idea on a mac. 05:57:42 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 05:58:54 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d858add.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 05:59:19 (hello 'world) 06:00:31 How are conses implemented in modern lisps? 06:01:31 foreignFunction: the same as always 06:01:49 well, without tricks like CDR coding 06:03:39 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 06:04:04 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 06:04:04 -!- nascent [~callen@ip-64-134-234-146.public.wayport.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:04:34 "as always" is how? 06:05:01 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d858add.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:05:18 https://p.boxnet.eu/95163/ :) 06:05:55 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 06:07:35 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:07:52 Oh. And how it looks at machine level? 06:09:02 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 06:11:00 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d858add.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:12:24 huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has joined #lisp 06:13:18 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:14:59 it depends on implementation, typically generic objects use a tag system, in the case of ecl cl_object is a pointer to a cl_lispunion, a union of the various native types 06:15:26 svedubois [~Sven@xdsl-188-155-123-49.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 06:15:42 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.47.4] has joined #lisp 06:16:00 mrSpec [~Spec@77-253-15-9.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #lisp 06:16:01 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@77-253-15-9.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Changing host] 06:16:01 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:16:13 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing_%28computer_science%29) 06:17:59 and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tagged_union 06:18:50 phadthai: thanks! ^___^ 06:18:52 the lisp machines had a word size facilitating tagging if I remember (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tagged_architecture in this case) 06:19:01 welcome 06:19:29 other dynamic languages also use similar strategies 06:21:06 on the other hand, lisp vectors can specialize on a type for efficiency 06:21:22 depending on the implementation 06:21:35 (the "ELT" type) 06:21:59 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.113.210] has joined #lisp 06:27:37 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:28:37 -!- _3b [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:28:45 _3b [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:29:07 -!- copec [~copec@64.244.102.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:29:55 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 06:30:10 copec [~copec@64.244.102.140] has joined #lisp 06:34:28 -!- zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@183.129.147.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:36:58 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-192-27.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:38:50 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-192-27.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:41:13 -!- __dict__ [~jake@c-24-22-211-63.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:41:16 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:43:07 -!- fold [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:43:16 k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 06:45:07 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-176-200-144.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:45:08 -!- hitecnologys [~No_Name@46.233.206.254] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:45:15 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.113.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:45:40 hitecnologys [~No_Name@94.137.59.85] has joined #lisp 06:47:11 cmm [~cmm@109.64.234.229] has joined #lisp 06:49:06 -!- ebobby [~fms@70-36-138-190.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 06:51:58 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.250.229] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:56:23 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:57:11 zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@183.129.147.44] has joined #lisp 06:58:55 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:07:38 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-011-022.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:17:21 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-192-27.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:17:46 Is there a way to get slime/emacs to jump to a defpackage form? 07:21:05 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:24:07 Nevermind. M-. does it. There is nothing special about defpackage. 07:27:07 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.128.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:29:54 saschakb [~skbierm@p4FEA0470.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:34:56 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 07:38:48 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-011-022.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:42:13 -!- jeekl [~crz@unaffiliated/jeekl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:45:19 -!- zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@183.129.147.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:52:41 flanfl [~flanfl@cpc1-sgyl27-2-0-cust785.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:53:30 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@109.236.137.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:55:00 theBlackDragon [~dragon@109.236.137.35] has joined #lisp 07:58:20 Hi everyone. This may seem like an odd question and it's not directly language related so much as community related, but I figured I would ask anyway. 07:59:48 I currently help maintain an ERP and accounting package written in Perl and PL/PGSQL. I am considering adding Lisp bindings to the database logic. I am wondering what level of interest folks see in such a project within the Lisp community. 07:59:51 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:02:21 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:02:22 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 08:04:07 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@109.236.137.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:05:17 theBlackDragon [~dragon@109.236.137.35] has joined #lisp 08:08:00 piko [~piko@ip4-83-240-108-205.cust.nbox.cz] has joined #lisp 08:08:55 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-012-086.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:09:39 hmm I've seen some discussion on a possible PL/lisp in 2008, but there also exists http://plscheme.projects.postgresql.org/ | however perhaps you mean higher-level bindings in your own application? I could see two solutions: embed a lisp (i.e. ECL), or provide portable CFFI based bindings for your application 08:10:54 well, or a type of common rpc protocol to the perl application which a cl layer could use, alternatively to CFFI 08:11:35 -!- EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:15:01 if it's all perl, the COM-like rpc way might be the easiest, and it could also be used for future languages support 08:24:43 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 08:26:49 EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 08:27:11 Phadthai: more info 08:27:28 basically the database logic is designed to be loosely coupled from higher level logic. 08:28:19 the idea is to provide language bindings so Lisp apps can re-use our db logic, or create new add-on applications in Lisp (perhaps with db logic of their own, according to our standards) 08:29:01 loosely coupled meaning discovered at run-time. 08:47:47 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:47:57 bitonic [~user@host86-154-103-106.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 08:50:07 jewel [~jewel@196-210-141-210.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:51:09 SanderM [~quassel@vhe-400104.sshn.net] has joined #lisp 08:54:42 FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 08:54:59 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128244023.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 09:03:58 -!- svedubois [~Sven@xdsl-188-155-123-49.adslplus.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:04:43 -!- bitonic [~user@host86-154-103-106.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:06:26 bitonic [~user@host86-154-103-106.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:06:54 -!- bitonic [~user@host86-154-103-106.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:07:36 bitonic [~user@host86-154-103-106.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:11:54 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 09:15:31 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.113.210] has joined #lisp 09:18:19 [SLB] [~slabua@host244-164-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:18:19 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host244-164-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 09:18:19 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 09:21:30 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-131.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:22:44 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:23:21 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 09:27:15 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 09:28:20 Joreji [~thomas@77-23-109-205-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:33:53 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 09:34:35 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.89.19] has left #lisp 09:37:06 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 09:37:45 metatrontech: don't know if lisp has large enough community for lisp bindings to non-lisp system to have significant impact 09:38:30 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:38:36 vantage|home [~vantage@3.52-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 09:39:21 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@3.52-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has left #lisp 09:40:10 what is your app, an accounting package akin to gnucash/quicken etc? because cl has a native package along the same lines called cl-ledger I think 09:40:44 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@202-159-134-72.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:41:10 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-141-210.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:41:57 jeekl [~crz@unaffiliated/jeekl] has joined #lisp 09:43:29 -!- joast [~rick@98.145.85.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:43:37 -!- quazimod1 [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:44:30 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:45:11 phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:45:12 -!- phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Changing host] 09:45:12 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 09:55:40 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-23-109-205-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:58:27 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 10:00:04 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:00:37 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:01:11 quazimod1 [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:05:24 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-131.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:06:25 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-131.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:08:16 ice__ [~ice@123.114.45.219] has joined #lisp 10:12:52 stlifey [~stlifey@116.26.28.253] has joined #lisp 10:15:45 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 10:16:49 -!- ice__ [~ice@123.114.45.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:16:56 ice__ [~ice@222.130.129.65] has joined #lisp 10:18:37 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:23:02 saschakb_ [~skbierm@p4FEA0082.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:24:26 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 10:24:35 -!- saschakb [~skbierm@p4FEA0470.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:26:55 jewel [~jewel@196-210-141-210.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:30:04 -!- saschakb_ is now known as saschakb 10:31:00 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.47.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:33:27 saschakb_ [~skbierm@p4FEA0453.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:35:05 -!- saschakb [~skbierm@p4FEA0082.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:38:35 kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 10:38:41 zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@124.90.139.115] has joined #lisp 10:45:03 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 10:50:03 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:50:46 WolfShield [~chatzilla@71-214-25-154.omah.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 10:55:45 fredrik_ [~fredrik@vpn501.hotsplots.net] has joined #lisp 10:56:46 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-141-210.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:56:47 -!- hitecnologys [~No_Name@94.137.59.85] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:58:39 hitecnologys [~No_Name@46.233.226.122] has joined #lisp 10:59:17 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 11:00:28 WolfShield_ [~chatzilla@71-214-24-252.omah.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 11:00:46 -!- WolfShield_ [~chatzilla@71-214-24-252.omah.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:01:15 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.152] has joined #lisp 11:01:26 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 11:02:08 LiamH [~healy@122.166.44.187] has joined #lisp 11:02:34 -!- WolfShield [~chatzilla@71-214-25-154.omah.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:04:42 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128244023.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:05:11 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Client Quit] 11:05:14 pjb: I possibly could use CL to implement this CL, though I'd still need to decide where to start 11:05:14 Guthur, memo from pjb: If one is implementing CL you can start with any set of primitive that is turing-complete. This is not saying much. The most reasonable would be to start with the whole CL, so you have the minimum amount of work to do. 11:05:42 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128244023.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 11:06:15 Why implement a CL? 11:07:48 Zhivago: Seems like it might be interesting. On one plus there is no CL for this target afaik 11:07:58 Fair enough. 11:10:06 guther: which target? 11:10:37 ehu: llvm 11:10:56 ah. ok. that's probably true indeed. I was going to say Dalvik is covered. 11:10:58 Seems a nice way to get to know that as well 11:11:53 You are aware that even building the infrastructure for the bootstrapping process is a non-trivial many man-year excercise? 11:12:04 neoesque [~neoesque@122-116-18-21.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:12:17 I mean, if anything, that's what building ABCL taught me. 11:12:26 ehu: hehe, it has occurred it is slightly difficult 11:12:42 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 11:12:55 hitecnologys1 [~No_Name@94.137.48.175] has joined #lisp 11:13:36 ok. well, in that case, I hope you get out of it what you're looking for. 11:13:56 on the plus, I'm not really in a rush and even I don't succeed I wont lose much 11:13:57 except time I suppose 11:14:19 not many people around to jump onto new CL implementations, if there's nothing groundbreaking to it. 11:16:18 -!- hitecnologys [~No_Name@46.233.226.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:16:22 I don't mind be a lone wolf on it for awhile 11:16:39 agumonkey [~agu@85.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 11:16:40 puchacz_ [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:18:35 It's realistic to assume that the chances of it becoming a full implementation are slim at the is stage 11:18:50 s/the is/this 11:19:56 considering that at this stage all I have really done is install LLVM and read through some of the language implementation tutorial 11:22:19 -!- ASau [~user@95-28-115-21.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:23:26 ASau [~user@95-28-115-21.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 11:28:27 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has left #lisp 11:28:44 ehu: out of interest had you implemented other languages before attempting CL with ABCL? 11:31:39 no. I didn't do other languages. Actually, I took over development of ABCL from Peter Graves. 11:31:56 90% of the code base was already there. 11:32:15 I refactored (bigtime) and fixed (a lot) to make it - more - work as CL. 11:35:16 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d858add.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:38:12 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@p5B0C1B8A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:38:46 -!- saschakb_ is now known as saschakb 11:41:08 nascent [~callen@c-50-136-199-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:41:32 sysfault [~exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 11:49:48 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:55:02 svedubois [~Sven@xdsl-188-155-123-49.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 12:01:24 -!- puchacz_ [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:03:26 -!- LiamH [~healy@122.166.44.187] has left #lisp 12:07:19 SHUPFS [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 12:15:30 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@p5B0C1B8A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:16:00 -!- svedubois [~Sven@xdsl-188-155-123-49.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:22:37 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:24:46 Guthur: in any case, I think that targetting the LLVM is a smart move. 12:25:15 -!- saschakb [~skbierm@p4FEA0453.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:25:28 maxm: More of an ERP package. See ledgersmb.org. I am just thinking I have run across enough impressive web apps in Lisp to make it worth considering. Sorry about the delay in responding. 12:26:52 saschakb [~skbierm@p4FEA0453.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:29:21 -!- wormwood [~wormwood@99-39-241-71.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:30:35 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@p5B0C077B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:33:52 tobel [~user@pD9E8BDFC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:34:34 -!- tobel [~user@pD9E8BDFC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:36:08 Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 12:40:42 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-143-130.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:42:37 i'm looking for a dumbified lisp editor which includes (swank) hints at which arguments a function takes and (if possible) includes a repl. it would be absolutely awesome if it would run both on windows and on linux. but on the short term only linux is a must (i think both my users use linux and i personally know jackshit about windows) 12:42:46 -!- intasuck [~intasuck@rrcs-67-78-80-247.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:43:52 -!- kanru [~kanru@173.243.46.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:44:12 madnificent: what's "Dumbified"? 12:44:24 I mean, emacs does all you want, both on Windows and Linux. 12:44:44 ehu: something which doesn't (necessarily) have fancy emacs shortcuts but which does include a limited set of buttons to press. it's for non-coding users. 12:44:57 madnificent: did you have a look at able? 12:45:10 antoszka: does that still exist? i thought it was abandonware 12:46:25 -!- ice__ [~ice@222.130.129.65] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:46:29 madnificent: it's available in quicklisp, so even if it's dead it's not rotten yet. 12:46:59 probably my best guess on the short run then. thanks for the heads up antoszka! (and you too ehu) 12:47:03 Or at least was last I looked. 12:48:58 ice [~ice@123.114.38.156] has joined #lisp 12:49:07 antoszka: able doesn't seem to use swank hints for the arguments each function takes though 12:51:42 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:52:10 madnificent: you can always remove bindings: (local-set-key (kbd "C-M-n") nil) 12:53:43 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 12:53:59 madnificent: yeah, wasn't sure about that. 12:55:16 pjb: i don't think the problem is that the bindings are there, they probably wont discover. however, it seems obvious to me that emacs isn't something that looks 'simple'. if they need to search for a button in emacs or in able, i think they'll find it in able 5 times faster (if it's there, obviously). i personally love emacs, but as i'm already feeding them s-expressions, emacs may kill the thrill for them ;-) 12:56:14 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:56:43 Kron__ [~Kron@84.255.141.82] has joined #lisp 12:57:41 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 12:59:40 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@84.255.140.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:01:24 AdmiralBumbleBee [~AdmiralBu@pool-108-9-57-130.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:31 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:10:56 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:22 madnificent: I'm not sure if it is any good or does the keyword hinting; but have you looked at the eclipse common lisp plugin? 13:14:50 Sorella [~quildreen@189-13-90-225.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 13:14:51 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@189-13-90-225.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Changing host] 13:14:51 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 13:17:16 -!- piko [~piko@ip4-83-240-108-205.cust.nbox.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:17:53 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-154-229.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:18:27 leo2007 [~leo@123.123.253.139] has joined #lisp 13:19:15 piko [~piko@ip4-83-240-108-205.cust.nbox.cz] has joined #lisp 13:19:41 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 13:22:03 tensorpudding [~michael@99.102.70.73] has joined #lisp 13:28:19 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-174.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:28:36 alama [~jessealam@stgt-4d02f89a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:29:19 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:31:31 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.250.229] has joined #lisp 13:36:02 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:28 -!- fredrik_ [~fredrik@vpn501.hotsplots.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:45:05 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 13:50:50 joast [~rick@98.145.85.206] has joined #lisp 13:52:08 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:28 -!- chu [~chu@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:56:37 -!- nascent [~callen@c-50-136-199-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:01:54 ravster [~user@184.175.28.107] has joined #lisp 14:01:58 Hello everyone 14:04:00 -!- saschakb [~skbierm@p4FEA0453.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:04:29 saschakb [~skbierm@p4FEA0453.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:04:35 -!- sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:05:27 *alama* waves 14:14:36 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 14:16:45 schmx: for non-coders? it has about as much buttons as emacs, might as well give them emacs in that case (i think). i've tried it in the past though, and cusp (as i think it was called) did have support for keyword hinting. i even think it used everything swank offered, so the extensions would work too. 14:17:50 coder` [~user@p54919209.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:18:53 madnificent: how many buttons do you actually need? 14:20:34 -!- zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@124.90.139.115] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:20:45 -!- tsuru``` is now known as tsuru` 14:21:15 zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@124.90.139.115] has joined #lisp 14:21:17 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 14:22:59 svedubois [~Sven@xdsl-188-155-123-49.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 14:23:32 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@116.26.28.253] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 14:24:20 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@222-155-139-54.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:25:26 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:25:31 -!- saschakb [~skbierm@p4FEA0453.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:25:50 _travis_ [~travis@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:32 saschakb [~skbierm@p4FEA0453.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:29:11 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:32:07 madnificent: Well atleast it looks prettier. But I dunno. I guess you could roll your own. ;) 14:32:56 ngz [~user@89.95.74.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:27 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:39:17 irus [~user@58.239.196.32] has joined #lisp 14:39:59 Guthur: what they would ideally have is a line which says which keywords are allowed in the form they are entering at the time (as in: swank hints), a way to open a file and save it and a repl. any extras aren't ideal for them. 14:40:14 -!- saschakb [~skbierm@p4FEA0453.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:40:40 schmx: perhaps the path of least resistance is the one in which i patch able. it seems to have some kind of hinting, but not the swank kind. 14:40:43 saschakb [~skbierm@p4FEA0453.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:41:05 schmx: or it doesn't seem to function properly, that could be the case too. 14:44:28 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 14:44:41 So basically something like notepad + repl at the bottom + keyword hinting.. and maybe highlighting + indenting. 14:45:14 -!- irus [~user@58.239.196.32] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:46:18 irus [~user@58.239.196.32] has joined #lisp 14:46:57 -!- irus [~user@58.239.196.32] has quit [Client Quit] 14:47:38 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 14:47:39 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@p5B0C077B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:48:40 steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-ihwrbbtdbbnpmilj] has joined #lisp 14:49:26 -!- cfdm [~user@222.235.51.254] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:50:07 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:50:38 when loading CL-LLVM from quicklisp I get LLVMUnwind undeclared 14:51:16 This is when CL_LLVM is grovelling 14:51:33 Everything else completes correctly 14:52:25 sellout, Ralith 14:56:12 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 14:57:20 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-192-27.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:50 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-133-192.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:57 Joreji [~thomas@77-23-109-205-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 15:05:24 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.228.111] has joined #lisp 15:10:47 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 15:11:51 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 15:11:51 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 15:11:51 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 15:13:23 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Client Quit] 15:13:43 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 15:13:43 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 15:13:43 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 15:15:54 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-66-65-50-85.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:16:38 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:34 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d858add.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:39 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:19:29 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:20:28 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-154-229.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Client Quit] 15:20:55 girzel [~user@114.250.115.83] has joined #lisp 15:21:44 paul0 [~paul0@186.222.48.210] has joined #lisp 15:22:31 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-133-192.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 15:24:24 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-154-229.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:25:08 auganov [~auganov@83.238.159.29] has joined #lisp 15:27:48 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@122-116-18-21.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 15:29:56 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:29:56 -!- quazimod1 [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:30:10 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 15:35:08 schmx: exactly! 15:36:13 Guthur: pull my branch 15:36:25 my fork, rather 15:36:30 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 15:36:31 sellout is the maintainer, but he's been MIA for a few months 15:36:52 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:37:19 sellout: are you MIA ? 15:37:29 *sykopomp* wonders what the most portable way of figuring out the number of processors a machine has is. 15:37:41 -!- agumonkey [~agu@85.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:37:49 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:38:04 sykopomp: there are a few C libraries that do that 15:38:11 IIRC sigar does that 15:38:24 sykopomp: ask the user. With hyperthreading and what not, you may only get a ballpack. 15:38:33 sykopomp: in bash, we used to fall back to two things, one for linux and one for bsd. however, sysctl could be an easy way out. and what fe[nl]ix says is obviously better 15:38:49 madnificent: sysctl how ? 15:39:08 agumonkey [~agu@85.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:37 -!- saschakb [~skbierm@p4FEA0453.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:39:50 fe[nl]ix: i thought it contained a non-configurable setting for it, but i don't see it on this machine. i must be mistaken. 15:39:50 phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 15:39:51 -!- phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Changing host] 15:39:51 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 15:39:56 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.55.192] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:41:07 not on linux 15:41:17 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 15:41:25 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d858add.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:41:27 fe[nl]ix: you could check what's in kernel.sched_domain.cpu* 15:42:36 -!- agumonkey [~agu@85.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:43:03 agumonkey [~agu@85.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:34 -!- zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@124.90.139.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:49:15 jewel [~jewel@196-210-141-210.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:49:44 madnificent: I'm thinking maybe you can configure emacs + SLIME to not be so daunting. Add some things to click on. Primarily work it mouse based, etc. 15:50:25 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:53:34 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 15:54:52 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:55:32 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 15:56:44 schmx, I think slime and emacs need a lot of work to become friendly to modern GUI users. I don't think you can get there with configuration and modification, you really need to start afresh 15:58:06 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:58:15 -!- svedubois [~Sven@xdsl-188-155-123-49.adslplus.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:59:01 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d858add.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:16 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 15:59:37 sykopomp: (with-open-file (cpuinfo "/proc/cpuinfo") (loop for line = (read-line cpuinfo nil) while line when (= (length "processor") (mismatch "processor" line)) count 1)) 15:59:46 -!- _travis_ [~travis@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:00:54 jewel: I tend to agree, yes. 16:03:31 Some GUI-using programmers have the screeming jeebies about the command line. Hard to please everyone, I'm not convinced that the attempt is worthwhile. 16:04:14 I'd prefer a nice CL plugin for IntelliJ IDEA over emacs any day tbh. :) 16:05:15 What features would that give you? 16:06:31 Hopefully the exact same features as I am getting from SLIME.' 16:06:56 -!- gimbal [~gimbal@mo-76-0-0-116.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: (remove gimbal desktop)] 16:07:08 girzel` [~user@114.250.115.83] has joined #lisp 16:07:54 -!- girzel [~user@114.250.115.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:07:56 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-154-229.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:12:32 -!- girzel` is now known as girzel 16:16:28 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:17:04 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:19:50 fold [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 16:22:44 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-66-65-50-85.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:22:55 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-229-92.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:22:56 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.123.253.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:23:37 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:24:40 -!- paul0 [~paul0@186.222.48.210] has quit [Quit: paul0] 16:27:02 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 16:27:27 gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has joined #lisp 16:31:07 hitecnologys [~No_Name@94.137.46.72] has joined #lisp 16:32:30 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:33:36 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:33:45 -!- hitecnologys1 [~No_Name@94.137.48.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:34:17 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-174.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:37:11 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.250.229] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:37:54 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:42:48 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:45:49 Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 16:50:27 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:51:57 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:52:45 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:52:59 -!- SanderM [~quassel@vhe-400104.sshn.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:56:19 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 16:58:25 paul0 [~paul0@186.222.48.210] has joined #lisp 16:58:36 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-131.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:59:57 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-131.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:02:31 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.228.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:02:47 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:44 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:06:51 pnpuff [~user@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 17:11:03 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 17:11:17 -!- pnpuff [~user@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:11:50 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:16:39 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:17:24 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 17:17:28 Greetings lispers 17:18:51 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:20:45 ThomasH: Hi! 17:25:09 -!- girzel [~user@114.250.115.83] has quit [Quit: bedtime in my time zone] 17:26:44 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-23-109-205-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:27:57 gimbal [~gimbal@mo-76-0-0-116.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:39 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 17:29:04 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:29:42 FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 17:30:06 Considering if CL+J will not work in SBCL - something threading and iirc interrupts - is it therefore unlikely that the jlinker API in ACL and ABCL could ever be implemented in SBCL? 17:31:35 Maybe that question would be better sent to the SBCL mailing list? Thought it could be fair to ask, here, though :) 17:32:25 gimbal: no reason why it couldn't 17:32:51 it might however require separate processes (JVM might want those signals!) 17:34:35 p_l|home: well there's the threading/interrupts thing wrt CL+J - I don't know a similar concern could be met if the jlinker API was ported to SBCL 17:36:51 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 17:37:09 pnpuff [~user@95.234.251.125] has joined #lisp 17:37:47 p_l|home: I'm afraid it sounds like one of those POSIX things that I'm not too familiar with - was just wondering (albeit naively) if and how a Java 'bridge' could be defined in SBCL 17:38:16 -!- pnpuff [~user@95.234.251.125] has quit [Changing host] 17:38:16 pnpuff [~user@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 17:39:46 gimbal: there's a separate project which used separate processes to link java and lisp (over a network socket) 17:39:46 -!- paul0 [~paul0@186.222.48.210] has quit [Quit: paul0] 17:40:25 as for signals... well, UNIX is a bit poor in terms of async complex things, so it has only limited ways for OS to tell something to program by itself 17:40:40 (like "hey, you're writing to memory that isn't mapped for writing") 17:42:01 p_l|home: java-lisp bridge over socket - sounds like kind of an IPC thing. Not sure how to say how the java-lisp bridge in ABCL and CL+J differs 17:42:17 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:42:32 gimbal: both run on top of JVM itself 17:42:36 at least ABCL does 17:42:49 so for ABCL there is *no* bridging at all 17:43:11 jlinker either embeds java runtime into lisp or does IPC 17:43:21 -!- faheem [~faheem@bigipfloater1.duhs.duke.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:43:30 Ok, somI guess it could be said that ABCL uses Java's memory map? 17:43:41 Ech typos 17:44:25 Embedding the Java runtime - i c 17:44:42 gimbal: no, Java (the language) and ABCL both run on common platform, JVM, and use its services 17:45:00 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 17:45:08 (memory map, at least to me, has a slightly different meaning) :) 17:45:19 I c 17:45:57 "Memory model" then? ;) 17:46:33 gimbal: in this case it's the entire virtual machine, so... 17:46:34 :) 17:46:50 memory model can be different a bit even on top of JVM 17:46:59 gimbal: what do you think this discussion about the memory model solves? 17:47:11 gimbal: Java and ABCL apps run within the same JVM. 17:47:18 gimbal: that's it. 17:47:20 gimbal: ehu is ABCL dev :) 17:47:27 p_l|home: Yeh, I'm just thinking albeit naively of what SBCL's get-lisp-obj works with.. 17:47:28 gimbal: they share everything in that VM. 17:47:29 syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-160-39-134-25.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 17:47:59 ehu: i c 17:48:50 so the question is: what are you after (on a higher level)? 17:49:24 ehu: being able to bridge data btw a Liferay Portle 17:49:31 Ech tablet 17:49:49 -!- pnpuff [~user@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: bye.] 17:50:04 ehu: was thinking of being able to bridge btw a Lifery Portlet and SBCL or other :) 17:50:49 On another hand, wondering how Java could be handled in a hypothetical Lisp OS in which SBCL would be the kernel 17:51:51 Run a JVM written in Common Lisp 17:53:14 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:53:36 and by sheer luck, it seems we have one already! 17:56:26 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.228.111] has joined #lisp 17:56:29 pnpuff [~user@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 17:59:10 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 17:59:16 antifuchs: Where is this JVM implemented in common lisp? 17:59:38 ThomasH: David Lichteblau announced it a few years ago 17:59:57 I don't think it is very fast, but last I saw it demoed, it could launch gtk eclipse 18:00:10 lcc [ce1db6ac@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.29.182.172] has joined #lisp 18:02:22 http://lichteblau.blogspot.com/2007/08/cloak.html is it 18:02:26 antifuchs: Found it: cloak. Presented in 2007, vsedach mirrored it on github, doesn't look like there has been any activity. 18:02:35 Recent activity. 18:02:51 yeah, everyone involved has been pretty busy, I think (: 18:03:14 Seems like it would be a hell of a lot of work to keep up with the JVM. 18:03:45 no kidding 18:03:58 Pretty cool that it was done to the prototype level, though. 18:04:01 but hey, random side project that shows it can be done (: 18:05:58 Joreji [~thomas@77-23-109-205-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:08:31 -!- gimbal [~gimbal@mo-76-0-0-116.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: Rooms  iPhone IRC Client  http://www.roomsapp.mobi] 18:09:38 gimbal [~gimbal@mo-76-0-0-116.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:43 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 18:10:03 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:10:40 -!- gimbal [~gimbal@mo-76-0-0-116.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:11:48 -!- lcc [ce1db6ac@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.29.182.172] has quit [] 18:17:53 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-160-39-134-25.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:18:12 syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-160-39-134-25.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 18:23:30 HG` [~HG@wprt-4db6f738.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:52 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 18:27:24 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:27:35 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 18:27:36 c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 18:38:09 ThomasH: You should take your router and throw it away: there hasn't been any recent activity in TCP/IP, it must be shit. 18:38:35 saschakb [~skbierm@p4FEA0453.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:41:57 fms [~fms@70-36-138-190.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:03 -!- fms is now known as ebobby 18:43:58 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 18:44:12 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 18:44:20 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:46:36 mast` [~alex@unaffiliated/mast/x-9924406] has joined #lisp 18:48:29 puchacz_ [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:51:43 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@cpe-024-074-197-085.ec.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:52:09 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-126-226.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:07 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-192-27.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:53:30 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-23-109-205-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:54:13 -!- ice [~ice@123.114.38.156] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:55:37 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:55:37 killerbo1 [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 18:56:14 Ralith: cl-llvm seems to have change incompatibly with the tutorial code. 18:56:15 -!- bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:56:21 Joreji [~thomas@77-23-109-205-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:56:34 The llvm:with-objects code does not seem to be correct for one 18:56:51 -!- killerbo1 [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Client Quit] 18:57:19 _travis_ [~travis@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:31 -!- _travis_ [~travis@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:58:19 _travis_ [~travis@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:24 -!- _travis_ [~travis@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:58:24 travis [~travis@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:30 -!- travis [~travis@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:58:53 travis [~travis@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:54 -!- travis [~travis@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:59:04 _travis_ [~travis@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:35 Guthur: there's been a *lot* of change sine 2.9/3.0 and 3.1. 3.1 -> 3.2 seems smoother, at least. 19:00:06 snearch [~snearch@f053012120.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:00:48 -!- scrimohsin [~scrimohsi@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Quit: scrimohsin] 19:04:26 pkhuong: you mean in the llvm? 19:04:37 or the cl binding 19:05:59 there just seems to have been an API change for with-objects, in the tutorial, in cl-llvm, it uses symbols where as the binding requires strings 19:06:06 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:06:32 Guthur: in LLVM itself, even when using the C++ interface directly. 19:07:28 ace4016 [~ace4016@cpe-024-074-197-085.ec.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:07:30 I'm using 3.1 and have only started tinkering so thankfully I missed those bumps 19:12:43 -!- auganov [~auganov@83.238.159.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:13:34 auganov [~auganov@77-254-178-212.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #lisp 19:15:15 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 19:16:31 *Fade* ponders starting clojure on top of cloak 19:16:33 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.250.229] has joined #lisp 19:18:04 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:18:53 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:20 Fade: How about ABCL on top of cloak? After that, it's just turtles all the way down. :-) 19:21:26 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:21:32 -!- Zemyla_ is now known as Zemyla 19:24:46 I'm no fan of java in general. :) 19:24:51 but cloak is pretty cool. 19:24:56 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 19:26:01 Guest42145 [~user@cpc14-acto3-2-0-cust114.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:26:20 r_r_r [~chatzilla@77.127.35.60] has joined #lisp 19:28:04 I just like the perverseness of ABCL -on- CLOAK -on- SBCL. 19:28:22 that is pretty perverse 19:28:38 CLOAK? 19:29:12 http://www.cliki.net/cloak 19:29:36 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:30:55 -!- Guest42145 [~user@cpc14-acto3-2-0-cust114.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:31:49 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.250.229] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:33:11 -!- _travis_ [~travis@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:34:09 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:36:35 ThomasH: turtles? 19:36:39 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:36:41 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 19:37:45 ravster: Wikipedia is your friend. 19:39:41 ThomasH: :D I don't understand it in this context. 19:40:19 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d858add.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:40:27 Kvaks [~quassel@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:40:58 syamajal_ [~syamajala@dyn-209-2-223-132.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 19:41:02 DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-2-5.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:05 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:41:11 ravster: I assume he meant this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down 19:41:35 ravster: JVM on Lisp on JvM ... Or, I'm going to get this wrong, but #LISP=( JVM . #LISP#), or some such. 19:42:45 Guthur: ah, thanks. 19:43:02 ThomasH: that helps. And yes, it is pretty freaky. 19:44:28 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-160-39-134-25.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:46:05 ->->->->-> see? turtles. 19:46:17 ThomasH: Except that CLOAK is SBCL-specific, and SBCL doesn't run on the JVM, so there's still a little way to go ;) 19:47:23 so you'd start the chain ->->-> ... 19:47:55 at any rate, demented. 19:47:57 So... the original of all is SBCL? 19:48:03 yeah 19:48:12 In SBCL we trust. 19:48:20 I tend to, for sure. :) 19:48:27 aaaaaahhh. angle-brackets! 19:49:53 SBCL was created to be independent of whatever chain of implementations was used to compile it, so it's a pretty good base. 19:50:44 That's nothing. Run ABCL on Cloack on SBCL on Linux on X86 on Javascript on Firefox on Linux on X86. 19:51:24 it gets absurd pretty fast 19:51:51 Fade: strangely enough, it seems to me that's how computer wil be used in the future. 19:52:33 gelernter agrees with you 19:52:44 Since people don't invest in writing good CL VMs, but optimize VMs in web browsers, it only make sence to optimize CL for Javascript. Or the JVM. Or LLVM. 19:52:56 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-23-109-205-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:53:03 Ie. it's not an essential silliness, it's a derived silliness. 19:53:12 well, i think people do invest in writing good CL vm's 19:53:19 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-141-210.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:53:30 sbcl is 'good enough' for rock and roll. 19:53:41 I hear that allegro and lispworks are 'good'. 19:54:06 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.250.229] has joined #lisp 19:54:15 Fade: I agree. What I mean is differencially: There are more people investing on improving more popular VMs than Lisp VMs. 19:54:44 the CL ecosystem is improving, and I think the rate is increasing. 19:54:50 but sure. 19:55:06 nobody with the financial means of google is doing CL vm's 19:55:10 In absolute number too. But compared to the others? 19:55:38 I mean things like KLEE/LLVM makes me want a CL on LLVM. 19:56:03 somebody recently posted to the lisp reddit about undertaking a port of sbcl to llvm 19:56:13 If the work invested in KLEE had been invested in Lisp instead, perhaps people would be learning Lisp instead of whatever runs on LLVM. 19:56:55 there's nothing wrong with lisp that a hundred bucks wouldn't fix, to paraphrase tom waits. 19:56:56 Fade: not quite. They were porting the C runtime to clang... and the mainline *has* been building under clang for quite a while. 19:57:06 ahh 19:58:19 if the lisp world under 'free implementations' umbrella could undertake to continuing to finance nikodemus and one or two lieutenants, our VM would improve. ;) 19:58:35 Replicating KLEE in the CL ecosystem would cost more than a few bucks. 19:59:15 And grantedly, this was a research project, now corporations could invest those more than a few bucks to do it. Would Google/ITA do it? I guess not. 20:01:24 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:08:21 francogrex [~user@109.130.127.212] has joined #lisp 20:10:40 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053012120.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 20:13:47 pjb: google would be rather doubtful 20:14:54 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.47.4] has joined #lisp 20:15:13 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.127.212] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:15:42 -!- coder` [~user@p54919209.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:15:45 -!- RiskyBlit [~riskyblit@91-66-77-202-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:19:59 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-192-27.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:10 Mezon_ [b891377b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.184.145.55.123] has joined #lisp 20:26:35 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20:36:04 -!- Kron__ [~Kron@84.255.141.82] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 20:39:00 what do you (the lisp community) think about the Land of Lisp book for beginners? 20:39:28 or I might just go with Practical Common Lisp 20:40:05 Mezon_: what's your background? 20:40:22 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-147-44.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:40:24 some Java 20:40:37 well I have quite some experience with Java 20:40:50 but I don't like Java (had to learn it for a class) 20:43:14 i've also asked this question here before but I am still not sure what implementations are (in Common Lisp)? 20:43:31 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-131.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:44:02 madnificent: do you think you could help me out? 20:44:34 Mezon_: that's the common background for practical common lisp, i'd go for that. 20:44:44 ok 20:44:56 what about CL implemenations? 20:44:58 Mezon_: i take it you know enough java to have used exceptions etc? 20:45:03 Mezon_: common lisp is a standard. the programs that actually implement the standard are called implementations. 20:45:06 Mezon_: are you on linux? 20:45:12 yes 20:45:13 no Windows 20:45:17 7 20:45:30 on windows, I'd choose clozure common lisp 20:45:43 standard != api 20:45:47 Mezon_: there's a list here: http://www.cliki.net/Common%20Lisp%20implementation CCL should be good on Windows. 20:45:58 i'm not entirely certain about windows (i don't use it). i've seen ccl advised in the past. most people here use SBCL (but they are on a *nix platform) 20:46:06 as Fade said :) 20:46:12 if you want to write windows programs in windows with lisp, then LispWorks is supposed to be good. 20:46:19 allegro seems popular in that role, too. 20:46:21 and non-free 20:46:25 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-174.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:47:12 what about clisp? 20:47:28 works on win too 20:47:30 I know you can run it on windows 20:47:34 I haven't tried it 20:47:35 Mezon_: it's slower, but it works (and it uses less memory) 20:48:20 the ranking around here seems to be: SBCL > CCL > Clisp > ABCL > ECL 20:48:37 but CCL would win if your platform is windows. 20:49:02 the non-free lisps are likely better than any of the free options on windows. 20:49:28 -!- syamajal_ [~syamajala@dyn-209-2-223-132.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:51:08 pjb has a lisp implementation selection wizard available on an URL I can't recall 20:54:48 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:58:03 Fade: just searched my logs: telnet://clis.informatimago.com:8101 20:58:08 dnolen [~user@pool-96-224-18-75.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:56 ChoHag [~mking@static45-85.adsl.bogons.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:39 ngz` [~user@89.95.74.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:15 -!- Mezon_ [b891377b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.184.145.55.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:01:22 I have a simple programme which reads from /dev/random to provide random numbers (ultimately from a hardware device). Overall it's of the form (with-open-file (rnd "/dev/random) (defun get_bits ...) (progn ...everythinggoeshere...)) 21:01:34 Mezon [b891377b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.184.145.55.123] has joined #lisp 21:01:38 so if I am on windows I should use CCL and if I am on Linux ( I have Ubuntu but it's currently having a problem where it stays on the home loading screen way too long :( ) I should use SBCL 21:01:43 Can I somehow get the everything part out of the with-open-file expression? 21:02:06 Mezon: you can use CCL on linux also, it works like a charm 21:02:09 -!- ngz [~user@89.95.74.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:02:24 I hoped defining the function inside the with-open-file would mean its scope automatically kept the file open (which is what perl would do) but it didn't work. 21:02:47 read-byte on closed filehandle. 21:03:42 use open and close instead, store the stream in a dynamic variable to be used by get-bits? 21:04:17 Are you asking me or telling me? This is the first complete lisp code I've ever actually written outside of emacs. 21:04:39 -!- ngz` [~user@89.95.74.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:04:53 Or to put it another way, I have no idea what those are but if they'd do the job I'll find out. 21:04:59 I'm suggesting it. 21:05:02 ChoHag: What you described doing doesn't really make sense, it would help if you clarified your goal. 21:05:29 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:09 ChoHag: what Bike says should work. it was a rhetorical question 21:06:15 -!- Mezon [b891377b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.184.145.55.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:06:35 Mostly, to poke lisp until it breaks and then work out what I did wrong. 21:07:10 ChoHag: with-open-file is a convenience wrapper around open and close, which work about how you're probably used to from the names 21:07:44 ChoHag: A code paste would go a long way at this point. 21:07:55 hello, I am learning lisp right now, coming from haskell.. is there something like type synonyms in lisp? the type system is quite different, right? 21:08:44 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:55 steffi_s: the type system in common lisp serves an advisory role, mostly. could you remind me what type synonyms are? i can guess, but i may be wrong ;) 21:10:10 madnificent: as haskell has a static type system, you can define new types in terms of other types with a type synonym. 21:10:14 e. g. 21:10:26 > type Subword = (Int,Int) 21:10:26 > type Parser b = Subword -> [b] 21:10:27 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 21:10:41 deftype might be sort of analogous? 21:10:44 you can do that in lisp in terms of CLOS objects. 21:11:41 cool, I'll look into that 21:12:06 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.47.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:12:14 Does anyone remember a blog post about CLOS naming conventions? 21:12:41 Somehting about standard-foo 21:12:52 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 21:12:53 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 21:12:53 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 21:13:04 ThomasH: i can recall it, but i don't know where to find it. 21:14:18 madnificent: Found it, Jochen Schmidt, May 15 21:14:21 steffi_s: i'd try to not be hooked on the haskell typing system if you're trying to learn (any) other language though. haskell's extremely static nature has its ups and downs :) 21:14:27 ThomasH: link for future reference? 21:14:37 http://blog.codeartist.org/2012/05/clos-class-naming.html 21:15:40 thank you 21:17:40 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:18:13 madnificent: static typing gives me so much safety, I am used to constructing the types first - but I see what you mean.. this is probably not the lisp way 21:19:10 steffi_s: you can construct types in lisp too: deftype, defstruct, defclass. 21:19:18 -!- bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 21:19:28 steffi_s: also use a lot of check-type. 21:19:53 steffi_s: it's a little unintuitive, but the equivalent of C type declarations is check-type, not (declare (type )). 21:20:51 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 21:21:58 blbef [~chatzilla@089144206233.atnat0015.highway.a1.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:02 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-159-96.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:06 check-type is new to me 21:22:23 steffi_s: i understand. it's not even necessarily bad. however, if you want to have that sort of typing system (and, even though you haven't said so, don't want to see something else), then you will find every alternative bad. though lisp /does/ have support for it, it's not as often done in common lisp as in haskell :) 21:23:25 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.228.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:23:28 if i want to learn a programming language what could that be? is lisp the best beginner language? 21:24:29 steffi_s: but the point indeed is that in lisp we tend to write generic functions. Unless you're using operator that expect specific types, your functions will be generic. Eg. (defun fact (x) (if (minusp x) 1 (* x (fact (1- x))))) --> since we don't type it, it can work on integers, single-floats, double-floats, rationals. 21:24:32 blbef: i believe common lisp is not a bad choice at all. it's not the most common choice, so many people (which mostly don't know the language) will hint that you're crazy (but i assure you'they are wrong) 21:25:02 steffi_s: and if you read in a package where 1- * and minusp are not cl:1-, cl:* and cl:minusp, it can even work on yet other types. 21:25:06 blbef: At the risk of being stoned, I see a lot of momentum for Python in the educational community. That said, I do as much of my programming in lisp as possible. 21:25:17 and when it comes to uncommon languages, the price of the commercial environments isn't that big, either 21:26:31 ThomasH: i personally think that lisp teaches the elemental concepts of programming very well. it doesn't care as much about syntax as other languages do. however, once you get into customizing the reader, you learn that syntax too, can be molded for your problem. 21:27:01 blbef: if you want to become a good programmer, lisp is good. if you want to be hired asap, python is probably better. 21:27:12 blbef: or better yet, java or C# 21:27:12 madnificent, crazy? why that? i mean stallman recommends lisp on his site, but im not sure everybody says another one 21:27:28 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.113.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:27:35 blbef: stallman is, IMHO, crazy, whether you agree with his ideals or not 21:27:37 pjb: In haskell I would use a type variable for the type of a generic function, but still write down the type 21:28:16 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.142.171.176] has joined #lisp 21:28:34 blbef: I recant my previous statement. Lisp is the best because of this tutorial -> http://lisp.plasticki.com/ 21:28:42 blbef: many programmers just look odd at you if you code in lisp. lisp code looks vastly different than what they are used to, so they are initially a bit scared about it. few know the language. the combination of both seems to make people think lisp is bad. there are also /a lot/ of misconceptions about the language which seem to live in the minds of programmers that haven't learned the language. 21:28:56 blbef: That was the only thing that was holding me back from recommending it and I had forgotten about that tutorial. 21:28:57 Mezon [3264c995@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.100.201.149] has joined #lisp 21:29:21 ThomasH: i had never seen that site before! 21:29:42 madnificent: well, AFAICS, python is not taught to programmers, but to the general public. 21:29:57 blbef: a lot of the "it's crazy" comes from really, really bad courses still roaming acadamia like zombies (with similar effects), where the dialect used would be outdated by the time of Maclisp 21:29:57 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:29:59 cf. MIT 6.01 vs. 6.S184. 21:30:12 ThomasH: i now grasp your statement on python better though. the amount of introductory material is less in lisp. you only need one good resource though. 21:30:27 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 21:30:44 introductory material for the general public would be in python. introductory material for CS would be scheme. 21:30:46 thomash, so the definition of choice is: is there a good tutorial..? 21:30:48 pjb: could be. any other evidence to back that up (as in job market stuff). 21:30:48 madnificent: Yeah, a good tutorial was the only thing that I thought was lacking in lisp, but really, it wasn't. 21:31:07 blbef: No, that is not sufficient, but it is damn near necessary. 21:31:18 madnificent: CS = Computer Science, not computer technology. Corporations don't need science. 21:31:47 They'll just allow a little science as long as it doesn't hurt the bottom line. 21:32:30 dnolen` [~user@pool-68-161-100-12.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:20 ThomasH: SICP seemed like a good introduction to programming in general to me. 21:34:04 At least for programmers. At MIT they think that it's not good for biologists or electricians. 21:34:08 pjb: The ANSYS corporation has bought into Python entirely. They've dropped the classic interface of over 20 years in TCL/Tk for one built on IronPython. I've also noticed a fair amount of Python tools coming out of NASA. A very experienced aerospace engineer that I respect also gave the opinion that Python was the way to go. 21:34:19 madnificent: Agreed. 21:34:25 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Quit: return 0;] 21:34:48 blbef: i think you want the language which teaches you the concepts behind programming (and what can be available to the programmer) the best. a language which lets you grow in your own capacity (as in: you learn a little and you can make some small programs, but as you learn more, you can make bigger, better and faster applications) for a lengthy time. however, what would such a language be worth if it can not be learned 21:34:48 hence, some introductory material is necessary. 21:34:55 ThomasH: correct. ANSYS and Nasa are not programming corporations or institutions. Those tools are not written by programmers, but by engineers. 21:34:55 ThomasH: ... hmm 21:34:59 pjb: While I think Lisp is superior, I can appreciate his point. 21:35:21 ThomasH: how recent is the IronPython stuff? Cause the copy I have here uses Tcl/Tk, has a full perl install, and who-knows-what 21:35:31 Also, while I don't know much about Tcl/Tk or Python, I'd think that python is superior to Tcl/Tk. 21:35:46 tcl is... weird 21:36:00 -!- dnolen [~user@pool-96-224-18-75.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:36:02 p_l|home: What version of ANSYS are you using? 21:36:33 also, Engineers are just as often fine with Lisp (AutoLISP never got taken over by VBA, afaik, some circuit design stuff) 21:36:36 let me check 21:36:37 -!- r_r_r [~chatzilla@77.127.35.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:37:08 11.0 21:37:12 madnificent, so what kind of language you would recommend? you think http://lisp.plasticki.com/ is the best "beginner" tutorial? 21:37:34 Now, the problem is that of "scripting" or "embedded" programming. The error IMO is to consider languages instead of VMs. If an application provided an embeded VM instead of an embeded language, any language could be compiled to that VM, and used to customize the application. 21:37:45 blbef: if you already program in another language, Practical Common Lisp is the way to go 21:37:58 k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 21:38:50 p_l|home: You should have Workbench with v11. It is implemented in Python. ANSYS is pushing for everything to be done within the Workbench platform using the Python API> 21:39:20 p_l|home: I have a lisp package that generates ANSYS APDL, would you be interested in using it? 21:39:25 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 21:40:22 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-209.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:40:43 p_l|home: I also have a prototype interface for interactive driving ANSYS from the Lisp REPL. I could clean that up if you were interested. 21:41:26 blbef: i used to learn programming languages because a liked it. common lisp seems to have more concepts than any other language i know, and those concepts are reasonable well separated. i haven't read the tutorial yet (and i will probably not do so in the next week). but common lisp certainly makes sense to me. my guess would be that learning common lisp will give you an edge over other programmers in the long run. 21:41:27 p_l|home, im not familar with any language, so i try to find out whats the best beginner language and furthermore i search a really good beginner tutorial, its hard to find 21:42:26 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl10-138-163.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 21:43:16 p_l|home: Hm, it looks like Workbench was overhauled in version 12, so you may not have it with 11. 21:49:21 blbef: there is no such thing as a best beginner language, languages designed specifically for beginners are usually bad for real work, python and lisp are good choices because they are relatively easy to learn and are practical once you learn them, C++ is not, because I've only seen good results if you have an exceptionally good teacher(owe 21:49:38 -!- sanjoyd [sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:51:38 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 21:51:44 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:50 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128244023.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:55:17 C++ is bad because there are too many things in the language that you should not use to make good use if it. 21:55:41 -!- HG` [~HG@wprt-4db6f738.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:56:02 On the contrary, in CL you can use almost everything to good use. You can abuse some features of course, but there's much less room for abuse in CL than in C++. 21:56:26 (and mostly, abuse in CL doesn't make your program crash, just slightly unmaintainable). 21:56:30 -!- steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-ihwrbbtdbbnpmilj] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 21:58:03 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@222-155-139-54.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:58:14 yes, seeing the words "segmentation fault" after you type ./a.out in a terminal is very traumatic for a beginner :) 21:58:51 No. What's traumatic is seeing the same thing (or similar) in an Ariane5 or Mars probe. :-) 21:59:46 ThomasH: AFAIK some of the GUI tools were redone, but TCL probably will remain to support existing code etc. 22:00:44 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-181-224.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 22:00:47 anyway, one drawback of learning lisp as a beginner is that once you actually have to use other languages, you suffer 22:02:25 why that? 22:02:32 unless you use something similarly powerful 22:03:49 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-147-44.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:03:51 p_l|home: That is the "Classic" interface. I'm on v14 and that interface hasn't been touched in years. Yes, it still works fine, but every conversation I have with my rep I'm being told to learn Workbench. I'm learning workbench, but I've also decided to invest in my Lisp interface because it gives me fine grained control over the analysis that I can't get with Workbench. 22:05:36 pavelpenev, the question is why should i ever use another language? 22:05:39 Plus, if I ever clean up the interface, I'll be able to run ANSYS from the REPL. 22:05:56 ThomasH: the new interface is offshoot of the workshop-whatever? 22:06:28 blbef: money, school work, because C can be fun sometimes, and because if you only know one language you are a corporate coder :) 22:06:40 *design-whatever 22:06:45 -!- p_l|backup [plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-ycoamsibnvslifka] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:07:27 p_l|home: No, at it's core, ANSYS is a command line driven tool. That is why they were using TCL/Tk and even the new interface ultimately generates the APDL commands and runs the core program. My interface just opens the core program and sends it the fundamental commands directly from Lisp 22:09:52 p_l|home: On SBCL, it is opened using sb-ext:run-program, on lispworks, open-pipe. Although, I think LW6.1 has a better way to do it. 22:11:14 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-126-226.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:15:36 the cli bit I knew about :) 22:15:55 *p_l|home* isn't the user of the ANSYS installed on this machine (well, the machine I'm ssh-ing from) 22:16:07 -!- puchacz_ [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:16:43 -!- ravster [~user@184.175.28.107] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:17:19 p_l|home: Ok. I've been thinking about releasing my ANSYS lisp routines on github. It would be nice to have an alternative interface, especially based on Lisp. But, my suspicion is that the union of people that use ANSYS and Lisp is me. 22:18:28 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:18:44 ThomasH: Does your code help in generating models etc? 22:18:57 as in, could I use it to write a converter package? 22:20:29 cause I was asked about it once, due to ANSYS dropping AutoCAD 22:20:45 p_l|home: Yes, the is the entire purpose of the code, to generate ANSYS models programmatically. 22:21:01 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:21:15 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-209.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:21:39 :) 22:22:04 well, I don't know if I'll be asked for it again, or whether the interested people will simply learn a modern CAD program 22:22:39 (and acquire it) 22:23:52 AutoCAD is a weird holdover in Poland, IMHO 22:24:57 p_l|home: AutoCAD seems to have a certain following in a lot of areas that I don't understand. I periodically see posts on Elance for AutoCAD lisp programmers. 22:25:23 benny [~user@i577A7127.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:26:38 ThomasH: because despite Autodesk's tries, AutoLISP didn't disappear and VisualLisp or whatever it was called is in the black ;) 22:27:14 p_l|home: No kidding, I have been pleasantly surprised to see that even though I've never used it. Really speaks to the utility of lisp. 22:27:46 the thing is, AutoCAD seems to have switched over mainly towards architecture, especially as good old drafting is less and less important 22:28:51 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-012-086.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:33:19 anyway, I wonder how long it has been since father used CFX in anger. I wonder how loud the PC would get 22:33:58 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 22:36:50 Or how hot. 22:37:47 http://paste.lisp.org/display/130629, yow! 22:38:25 ThomasH: if the newer ANSYS versions support CUDA/OpenCL, it's not a question of how hot but "when the GPU will give us the single-color-screen-of-death" 22:38:51 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:38:55 coder` [~user@p54918D24.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:39:04 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:15 p_l|home: Oh, they do, if you shell out extra for the GPU license. 22:39:45 heh 22:41:13 p_l|home: I have to step out. Feel free to request my ANSYS lisp code if you ever have a need for it. 22:41:41 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Quit: return 0;] 22:41:51 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 22:41:53 and http://paste.lisp.org/display/130630 ofc 22:41:53 -!- ebobby [~fms@70-36-138-190.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:42:57 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-181-224.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:04 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 22:43:52 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 22:45:53 heh this too please http://paste.lisp.org/display/130631 22:45:53 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 22:47:36 <|3b|> wbooze: might be more effective to send bug reports to the maintainers, rather than just telling whichever people happen to be clicking on links with no context at the moment 22:48:31 hmm, ok that would heal the root of the cause rather then the symptoms ....but anyway...if someone is using them on cmucl and wonders....if not already discovered it...... 22:49:50 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl10-138-163.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 22:53:00 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:53:24 -!- alama [~jessealam@stgt-4d02f89a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:54:12 -!- mast` [~alex@unaffiliated/mast/x-9924406] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:55:47 yep http://paste.lisp.org/display/130632 at least i'll report it first here and then try to contact the maintainers... 22:56:31 steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-ggysjmqgnbdwpxjd] has joined #lisp 23:00:38 oh man http://paste.lisp.org/display/130634 23:02:25 Joreji [~thomas@77-23-109-205-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 23:03:19 hugoduncan [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584728.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:03:24 BeLucid_ [~belucid@cpe-066-057-057-247.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:03:35 -!- steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-ggysjmqgnbdwpxjd] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 23:03:50 -!- BeLucid [~belucid@cpe-066-057-057-247.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:04:02 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.142.171.176] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:06:10 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584728.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:06:31 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.152] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:06:57 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-24-217-94.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:06 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-23-109-205-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:08:37 -!- fsmunoz [~user@bl10-232-193.dsl.telepac.pt] has left #lisp 23:11:05 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:11:37 -!- flanfl [~flanfl@cpc1-sgyl27-2-0-cust785.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:14:53 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:20:37 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:26:59 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-147-44.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:28:22 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-147-44.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:29:08 -!- saschakb [~skbierm@p4FEA0453.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 23:29:45 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-147-44.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:30:04 zmv [~zmv@186.204.123.135] has joined #lisp 23:30:20 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:32:20 AdmiralBumbleB-1 [~AdmiralBu@pool-108-9-57-130.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:33:50 -!- AdmiralBumbleBee [~AdmiralBu@pool-108-9-57-130.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:34:34 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-147-44.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:37:27 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-192-27.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: reboot] 23:37:48 pjb: that's one of the least portable ways, in fact. 23:38:06 pjb: getting hw.ncpus sysctl value is more portable. 23:38:41 It is "hw.ncpu", of course. 23:39:26 sykopomp: ^^ 23:39:33 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-192-27.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:33 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 23:44:31 zenbalrog [~johnnyc@adsl-98-86-6-134.tys.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:36 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-147-44.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:55:59 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-147-44.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:57:47 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-24-217-94.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey]