00:00:42 guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:04:29 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.234.204] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 00:04:44 -!- nha [~prefect@g225146198.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:04:52 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-234-204.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 00:07:03 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 00:12:38 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:13:03 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-234-204.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 00:17:15 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:18:13 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 00:18:33 setheus [~setheus@cpe-72-190-112-13.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:18:52 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Client Quit] 00:25:10 sabalaba [~Adium@199-188-193-145.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:16 -!- brown` [user@nat/google/x-jynbyxwbttmennrx] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:28:04 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-134-164.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:28:33 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:34:37 lebro [~monx@ool-18bab6ce.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:57 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:37:16 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 00:38:57 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-134-164.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:41:15 arrsim` [~user@russell.its.unimelb.edu.au] has joined #lisp 00:43:12 -!- SecretFire [~SecretFir@67-5-147-1.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:46:07 -!- harish [~harish@cm108.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:47:23 http://paste.lisp.org/display/130554, i'm not sure i did it right here, the loop in extended-table is somehow wrong or is it only me seeing it as such ?! 00:48:09 by the way my *fill-column* is something around 150 or so..... 00:48:27 -!- guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: The Sleeper has Asleepen] 00:49:02 well, i don't understand what it's doing, so, yes, i'd take as a sign of it being wrong 00:49:12 guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:42 -!- schmx [~marcus@c83-254-190-169.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Changing host] 00:49:42 schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 00:49:59 was that a comment ? 00:50:22 if so it is pretty worthless..... 00:51:17 it was a more polite way of saying "your code sucks" 00:51:56 why ? 00:52:07 Why didn't you use dotimes, for instance 00:52:28 wbooze: because it's unreadable 00:52:37 oh 00:54:18 what is (princ ... (values))? 00:54:41 the values part, superficially, how did it end up there? 00:55:24 -!- pnq [~nick@AC810769.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:59:37 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-234-204.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 00:59:40 yup, ok superfluous 01:00:02 and (princ (format nil ...)), instead of (format t)? 01:00:18 err yes 01:01:05 -!- clintm [~cmoore@131.191.81.130] has quit [Quit: clintm] 01:02:01 if i do format t there then i get an extra nil at return.... 01:02:20 so either i use formt t and values as before or format nil there... 01:02:29 you're not making any sense 01:02:34 wbooze: What? 01:02:49 wbooze: Get rid of the PRINC  FORMAT prints for you. 01:03:57 dude, i tried that.... 01:03:58 the extra NIL is return value from format, it's not part of the actual output 01:04:11 i get no loop then or only a partial one.... 01:04:35 kennyd: whatever, i didn't want any nil or other return values..... 01:04:43 i would've written a general table printing function, but otherwise, http://paste.lisp.org/display/130554#1 01:04:45 not from the main function nor from any other parts.... 01:05:42 zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@183.129.147.44] has joined #lisp 01:05:43 i'm dumbfounded by that sentence 01:05:55 wbooze: Then you want (values) after the loop. 01:06:26 dt63 [~dt@203.39.205.3] has joined #lisp 01:06:42 clintm [~cmoore@001e52f0de2b.click-network.com] has joined #lisp 01:06:43 aaaaah 01:06:52 but (values) is the same as NIL, just printed by the REPL differently 01:07:31 yours is better stassats, i couldn't get the 64+64 layout, that was my problem exactly.... 01:07:31 just get rid of (values) and let the function return NIL 01:07:52 and my looping construct somehow was screwing me in that respect.... 01:08:16 why should i return nil ? 01:08:26 why should you not return nil? 01:08:46 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 01:09:03 why should you care about what is returned altogether if the goal is to print? 01:09:39 heh, those nil's at the end of the output..... 01:10:19 don't run it from the REPL then 01:10:28 at times i don't like them, tho i think i get what you mean....for success or not for checking if the function was doing it's job maybe those are useful but....otherwise.... 01:10:40 i find them rather disturbing..... 01:10:42 the P in REPL stands for print, it will return the result of that expression 01:11:29 the return result of some expression shoudl not go into the print result ..... 01:11:36 that's all i care.... 01:11:45 otherwise you're right.... 01:11:55 that is REPL 01:12:02 it always prints the result 01:12:26 REPL is intended for interactive development 01:12:33 yes and i'm bound to the repl at the moment, i'm not that advanced to display all that to a sheet or so.... 01:12:34 not yet 01:12:42 maybe in a few months.... 01:12:58 so, stop irrationally caring about things 01:13:33 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 01:14:56 few months coming in: just put (extended-table) after the definition in a file, and then sbcl --script foo.lisp 01:15:01 no repl, no nothing 01:18:12 k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 01:21:06 ok 01:23:29 setmeaway [setmeaway3@118.45.149.206] has joined #lisp 01:24:25 Deston [~futune@S0106602ad0905680.wp.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:24:50 -!- cddr [~user@108-89-212-211.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:27:34 -!- dt63 [~dt@203.39.205.3] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 13.0.1/20120614114901]] 01:27:42 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-90-42.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 01:28:03 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Quit: (quit :reason 'sleep)] 01:28:38 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:28:43 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-90-42.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:30:41 hitecnologys [~No_Name@94.137.55.196] has joined #lisp 01:32:31 -!- jjkola_work [c064782a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.120.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:33:16 -!- agumonkey [~agu@85.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:38:29 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 01:39:30 -!- sabalaba [~Adium@199-188-193-145.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:39:32 i even tried the (string (code-char i)) versions....but then the alignments got totally wrong..... 01:40:45 chu [~chu@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 01:42:20 _paul [~paul@ool-44c6da75.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:35 am0c_ [~am0c@203.246.179.173] has joined #lisp 01:44:13 -!- _zxq9_ [~zxq9@FL1-119-244-163-13.okn.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:45:50 -!- hitecnologys [~No_Name@94.137.55.196] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:45:51 -!- CampinSam [~user@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:46:29 CampinSam [~user@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:47:34 hitecnologys [~No_Name@94.137.55.196] has joined #lisp 01:48:33 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:49:02 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-hllxzfdfvrntrxgu] has joined #lisp 01:49:32 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-hllxzfdfvrntrxgu] has quit [Client Quit] 01:49:40 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.195.174] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:49:58 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.195.174] has joined #lisp 01:50:24 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-ykdhboxifuaknavv] has joined #lisp 01:56:34 hitecnologys1 [~No_Name@94.137.55.196] has joined #lisp 01:56:35 -!- hitecnologys [~No_Name@94.137.55.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:02:41 pnq [~nick@172.162.35.100] has joined #lisp 02:02:43 -!- clintm [~cmoore@001e52f0de2b.click-network.com] has quit [Quit: clintm] 02:08:35 -!- nightfly19 is now known as nightfly 02:15:56 ebobby [~fms@70-36-138-190.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 02:16:20 -!- ebobby is now known as Guest82655 02:17:59 <_paul> can mapcar be applied to functions that take more than one arg? 02:18:26 _paul: only if mapcar has more than one list 02:18:57 <_paul> ok so (lambda (x y &rest l-list) 02:18:57 <_paul> (mapcar #'(lambda (p) (expt (+ x y ) p)) l-list)) 02:18:57 <_paul> works fine but what if had 02:18:58 gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has joined #lisp 02:19:35 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-3-24.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 02:19:37 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-90-42.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:20:50 <_paul> ok so each arg is bound to a separate list when mapcar is used? 02:21:24 -!- Guest82655 is now known as fms 02:21:26 Each arg is an element from each list. The first arg comes from each element of the first list. The second comes from each element in the second list, ad infinitum 02:21:55 -!- fms is now known as ebobby 02:22:28 <_paul> thanks zulu 02:22:39 _paul: Any time bud 02:24:14 zulu time! 02:26:58 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:27:47 -!- zulu_inuoe [~zulu_inuo@c-174-58-204-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~] 02:27:56 zulu_inuoe [~zulu_inuo@c-174-58-204-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:59 clintm [~cmoore@001e52f0de2b.click-network.com] has joined #lisp 02:33:04 -!- clintm [~cmoore@001e52f0de2b.click-network.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:36:14 pspace [~andrew@li450-44.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 02:36:35 -!- pspace [~andrew@li450-44.members.linode.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:36:50 pspace [~andrew@li450-44.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 02:40:30 -!- hitecnologys1 [~No_Name@94.137.55.196] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:43:07 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.142.171.176] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:43:31 springz [~springz@118.163.74.175] has joined #lisp 02:48:42 -!- DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:50:42 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:55:18 -!- pspace [~andrew@li450-44.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:55:44 pspace [~andrew@70-36-139-238.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:24 hitecnologys [~No_Name@94.137.55.196] has joined #lisp 02:57:39 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:02 What's the best way to clear out the asdf fasl cache? 02:59:27 rm -rf 02:59:33 haha 03:00:31 -!- benny [~user@i577A747F.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:05:41 stassats: `rm --no-preserve-root -rf` under some systems. 03:06:01 really? 03:06:12 If you meant rm -rf /. 03:06:17 i did not 03:06:22 OK. 03:06:25 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:06:39 rm -rf is used not only for stupid pranks 03:06:48 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:07:13 -!- _paul [~paul@ool-44c6da75.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:08:08 I know. 03:08:41 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:09:01 teggi [~teggi@113.172.38.202] has joined #lisp 03:09:26 But it's part of most common answer to "How to clean/fix something". 03:09:52 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483AD12.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:20 well, it was a real non-joke answer 03:10:47 Yes, I know. 03:11:04 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p54839C14.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:11:16 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:30 -!- hitecnologys [~No_Name@94.137.55.196] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:12:31 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.78.199] has joined #lisp 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[~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-163.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:49:51 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:51:55 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-27.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:52:33 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 06:52:34 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 06:52:34 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 06:54:44 zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@183.129.147.44] has joined #lisp 06:56:33 nha [~prefect@g225074079.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:00:38 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-27.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:02:57 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-sdhzvvtcuwablkod] has joined #lisp 07:03:46 good morning. Small question about clx. 07:04:56 How can I get how many bytes per pixel returned by xlib:get-raw-image? 07:05:03 sabalaba [~Adium@2602:306:cfc8:8c30:703a:8acd:1a29:7ec8] has joined #lisp 07:05:10 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 07:05:39 Won't that be determined by the screen you get them from? 07:06:17 Scheisselstadt [Scheissels@204.12.223.123] has joined #lisp 07:06:34 -!- zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@183.129.147.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:06:55 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-199.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:07:24 -!- sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:09:58 I get depth value of pixel 24, but result array contains 4th value. I mean that length of array is (* x y 4) instead of (* x y (/ 24 8)) 07:10:03 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 07:11:20 -!- sabalaba [~Adium@2602:306:cfc8:8c30:703a:8acd:1a29:7ec8] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:13:08 sabalaba [~Adium@2602:306:cfc8:8c30:3d72:3818:823f:731f] has joined #lisp 07:14:42 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 07:16:33 -!- hitecnologys [~No_Name@94.137.55.196] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:17:12 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:18:31 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.113.210] has joined #lisp 07:19:21 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 07:19:47 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 07:19:55 -!- nha [~prefect@g225074079.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:20:06 hitecnologys [~No_Name@94.137.55.196] has joined #lisp 07:20:32 -!- arrsim` [~user@russell.its.unimelb.edu.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:21:21 asvil: Why (* x y 4) if (/ 24 8) is not 4? 07:22:28 32 / 8 is 4, though 07:23:36 Hm, It can be because there's RGB and Alpha. I forgot about alpha. 07:23:37 Have a look at the x11 documentation. Remember the clx just talks x11 protocol. 07:24:19 hitecnologys: stassats: find that xlib:get-raw-image returns array in xlib:display-bitmap-format. question is closed. 07:24:38 asvil: OK. 07:26:55 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.98.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:30:09 -!- pnq [~nick@172.162.35.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:30:54 kilon [~user@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 07:30:56 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129090088.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:31:19 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.12.66] has joined #lisp 07:31:20 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.12.66] has quit [Changing host] 07:31:20 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 07:33:50 nha [~prefect@f052225234.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:34:12 Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.98.220] has joined #lisp 07:34:17 anaumov [~anaumov@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has joined #lisp 07:37:29 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:38:00 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:38:28 -!- nha [~prefect@f052225234.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:43:01 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:44:20 -!- hitecnologys [~No_Name@94.137.55.196] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:46:56 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-42-46.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:48:34 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.98.220] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:49:37 cymew [~cymew@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 07:51:48 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 07:53:25 ur5us [~ur5us@55.200.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 07:53:46 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 07:55:43 zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@183.129.147.44] has joined #lisp 07:57:04 snearch [~snearch@g225077202.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:57:52 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 07:59:38 nha [~prefect@g225005140.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:04:00 Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.98.220] has joined #lisp 08:12:43 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.172.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 08:13:16 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:15:53 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:18:18 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 08:19:25 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:20:28 -!- impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176313909.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:21:08 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-zrxxhlfmhixgtrll] has joined #lisp 08:22:32 impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176313909.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 08:27:57 -!- kilon [~user@178.59.17.196] has left #lisp 08:40:53 bitonic [~user@host86-133-193-80.range86-133.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 08:49:48 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:59:05 -!- nounch [~nounch@188-195-2-219-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:59:40 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.102.70.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:01:34 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:03:21 wbooze: your function can return (values) so that the REPL doesn't print any value. But the REPL of some implementation then print "; No value" instead, which is no better than "NIL". 09:04:30 Nonetheless, I tend to return (values) for "commands", ie. functions that are called for side effects instead of to get a result, and if your REPL prints "; No value", you can always use your own REPL. http://paste.lisp.org/display/18280 09:05:08 pjb: what tool do you use for paste.lisp.org? 09:05:22 It's a bit better, because then you know that it returned (values). 09:06:01 ZabaQ [~jconnors@85.207.11.34] has joined #lisp 09:09:29 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 09:12:24 -!- sabalaba [~Adium@2602:306:cfc8:8c30:3d72:3818:823f:731f] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:12:30 Sometimes I wonder if function calls ought to return at all. 09:14:03 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:16:24 they wouldn't be functions then 09:19:37 asvil: what do you mean? Just http://paste.lisp.org/new 09:20:05 With TCO, you can always have a tail call and never return. 09:20:24 At the end of the main function, call (repl) :-) 09:23:29 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-ykdhboxifuaknavv] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:24:43 pjb: I mean using it from emacs 09:25:43 asvil: just w3m. 09:26:12 ok, lisppaste unfortunately does not work 09:26:28 Once upon a time I had a command for erc, when I yanked more than four lines, it would put them to lisppaste (and lisppaste would send the link to erc), but they changed some API and it bitrot. 09:26:54 asvil: it works at 90%. It doesn't send the link to the channels automatically anymore, so you have to copy and paste the links. 09:27:19 -!- nha [~prefect@g225005140.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:27:27 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 09:27:41 But it's still the most readable paste site with w3m. All the others are horrible with w3m (and I'd guess with lincs, lynx, etc). 09:28:19 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@235.177.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 09:30:08 ivan-kanis [~user@204.19.201.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 09:32:44 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:35:29 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.12.66] has joined #lisp 09:35:30 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.12.66] has quit [Changing host] 09:35:30 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:37:27 edgar-rft [~GOD@78.43.123.191] has joined #lisp 09:38:37 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:38:40 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-ipzmnvlmbknrwcbn] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:38:52 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-mzppzrkidwmadmbz] has joined #lisp 09:39:30 francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has joined #lisp 09:40:16 what is the command to inspect local variables in clisp, it seems :i but looks poor. In sbcl it is L 09:41:08 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.160.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:43:28 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-163-106.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:46:08 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 09:46:28 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@125-237-76-181.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:47:26 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-96-160.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 09:49:42 -!- francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.1.2 $Revision: 1.796.2.4 $ (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:51:54 -!- ice [~ice@123.114.34.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:52:29 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 09:52:29 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:52:56 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:53:41 ice [~ice@123.123.248.79] has joined #lisp 09:57:12 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:59:51 DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #lisp 10:08:10 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 10:08:24 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.172.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:08:43 -!- sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:09:39 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:12:26 r0man [~r0man@212.45.111.145] has joined #lisp 10:15:13 -!- Scheisselstadt [Scheissels@204.12.223.123] has quit [K-Lined] 10:15:52 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 10:19:22 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:20:21 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.1.1] 10:20:34 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:22:18 harish [~harish@203.117.38.130] has joined #lisp 10:22:27 treyka [~treyka@ip-188-118-20-209.reverse.destiny.be] has joined #lisp 10:22:44 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 10:23:16 lifeng [~lifeng@bb116-14-140-189.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 10:23:58 springz [~springz@118-163-74-175.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 10:27:34 Guthur [~yaaic@212.183.128.188] has joined #lisp 10:27:46 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.38.202] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:29:44 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-199.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:37:40 -!- ice [~ice@123.123.248.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:39:40 ice [~ice@123.123.253.118] has joined #lisp 10:40:07 -!- ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:41:07 hitecnologys [~No_Name@94.137.55.196] has joined #lisp 10:41:20 ISF [~ivan@201.82.158.233] has joined #lisp 10:42:13 pnq [~nick@ACA23330.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 10:43:44 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:44:20 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 10:44:30 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 10:47:00 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 10:47:23 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:47:26 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 10:47:34 KDr2 [~kdr2@221.219.119.88] has joined #lisp 10:48:13 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 10:52:57 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 10:53:20 -!- jjkola_work [c064782a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.120.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:53:51 jjkola_work [c064782a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.120.42] has joined #lisp 10:54:10 ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:54:16 -!- KDr2 [~kdr2@221.219.119.88] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:54:29 agumonkey [~agu@85.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 10:54:30 -!- ur5us [~ur5us@55.200.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:54:45 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:55:13 antonv [2e35c344@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.68] has joined #lisp 10:56:07 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 10:56:20 minion: memo for francogrex: there's no command, you just type lisp expressions. See: http://www.cliki.net/TutorialClispDebugger ; clisp is too good. 10:56:21 Remembered. I'll tell francogrex when he/she/it next speaks. 10:57:35 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:59:44 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-199.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:00:24 anyone checked out The Garbage Collection Handbook? 11:00:30 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:03:07 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:03:37 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 11:04:54 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.158.233] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:05:42 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 11:08:53 -!- schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:09:41 gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has joined #lisp 11:11:37 -!- ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:11:43 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit 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timeout: 252 seconds] 12:01:47 -!- zulu_inuoe [~zulu_inuo@c-174-58-204-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~] 12:02:28 Hi all, I'm playing around with optimizations for a simple fibonacci function. I wonder if anyone could offer me some tips on how/if to improve it further 12:02:31 http://pastebin.com/hY7ASwhd 12:04:03 Bacteria: use (rotatef) or (shiftf) 12:04:12 -!- nha [~prefect@141.23.107.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:04:17 *looks those up* 12:04:53 and, strictly speaking, your solution is wrong -- fib(0) is 0, not 1 as you'd return 12:05:07 clhs shiftf 12:05:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_shiftf.htm 12:05:10 Bacteria: ^^ 12:05:33 Damn it! How did I miss that 12:05:44 ferada [~ferada@dslb-088-068-142-008.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:06:37 -!- am0c_ [~am0c@203.246.179.173] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:06:39 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 12:07:20 So how would I use shiftf in my context? Instead of my (setf f1 f2) etc? 12:10:36 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.234.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:11:40 (shiftf f0 f1 (+ f0 f1)) ? 12:11:53 -!- springz [~springz@118-163-74-175.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 12:13:00 Hmmm, was trying that. Didn't seem to make any difference in the speed 12:14:17 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:15:35 Is my type declaration correct? 12:15:51 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:16:07 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:46 stlifey [~stlifey@121.11.119.195] has joined #lisp 12:17:30 Bacteria: use memoization. 12:17:56 -!- kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:18:19 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@121.11.119.195] has quit [Client Quit] 12:19:00 -!- harish [~harish@203.117.38.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:19:32 -!- schmx [~marcus@c83-254-190-169.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:20:16 Hmmm 12:20:19 nha [~prefect@dhcp-15-203.math.tu-berlin.de] has joined #lisp 12:20:42 I was using a hash-map before, but this method turned out to be faster 12:20:46 kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has joined #lisp 12:21:18 Bacteria: it won't make much difference - the shiftf might expand into the setf forms you had. 12:21:24 it's just a bit more clear. 12:21:32 Ahhh 12:21:54 you could try fixnum as type instead of integer ... what's your intended range? 12:22:02 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 12:22:23 I seem to exceed the fixnum when trying to calculate the 500,000th fibonacci number 12:22:36 I believe it to be a large number 12:22:42 oh, and perhaps http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/t/25920.aspx 12:22:48 fixnum may be a small as (signed-byte 16). 12:23:38 mathworld says ~3e104493 12:23:48 that won't be in a fixnum, right enough 12:23:52 hmm you could also add a of-type to the for clause for i, and a (the (+ ...)), moreover, specifying that the type is a generic integer only might not speed things much 12:24:14 There may also be some limit on bignums. 12:25:10 I tried bignums, but it didn't like the 0 I had for the f0 12:25:38 Sure. bignums is integer-fixnum. 12:25:43 Try integer instead. 12:26:33 schmx [~marcus@c83-254-190-169.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:28:01 Hmm, still can't get it faster than 7.2 seconds 12:28:56 Kenjin_ [~josesanto@2.80.234.204] has joined #lisp 12:29:07 -!- kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:30:08 Try with clisp, it has (or had) faster bignum I think. 12:33:19 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 12:37:07 -!- zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@183.129.147.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:39:46 KDr2 [~kdr2@123.122.110.90] has joined #lisp 12:40:18 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:40:34 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 12:42:06 -!- KDr2 [~kdr2@123.122.110.90] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:43:06 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:43:50 Vutral_ [ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:10 -!- gurrag 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Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:56:03 kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:06 pjb: in terms of the user interfaces: i've raised before that a tiling window manager on top of wayland could be an entry-point to some. with canonical moving to wayland and all that... the idea didn't gain much traction at the time though, so i'd assume lispers aren't specifically interested in that sort of thing. 15:58:36 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.172.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 16:00:23 -!- EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:01:52 hitecnologys1 [~No_Name@94.137.35.107] has joined #lisp 16:01:56 -!- kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:02:48 -!- hitecnologys [~No_Name@94.137.55.196] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:03:25 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-242-169.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:27 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-vrpinndljcvpsobc] has joined #lisp 16:03:28 EyesIsMine 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kiuma [~kiuma@host58-157-static.186-82-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:18:36 -!- kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:20:16 kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:39 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:23:10 -!- r0man [~r0man@212.45.111.145] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:24:50 madnificent: dunno about others, but I consider Wayland a horrible, horrible thing that I hope dies fast 16:25:56 -!- kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:26:26 p_l|backup: in concept, design, or execution? 16:26:44 antgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-throldmxtlhuejhm] has joined #lisp 16:27:14 kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:16 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 16:27:31 p_l|backup: it seems to make sense. xorg has apparently become a mess to maintain and the features which it offers aren't those most wanted anymore (for what i've read about it), so something with an architecture similar to wayland may make sense. i'm not entirely certain why the concept of wayland would be a bad one. 16:28:34 madnificent: the people pushing for wayland are at least partially responsible for X.Org's problems, IMHO 16:29:11 p_l|backup: i've got to run, but i'm curious as to what you're pointing at. i'll certainly read the scrollback of the argument. 16:29:16 and I on't want to replae X11 with 'classic' windows driver model 16:29:45 I don't see anything wrong with X11. 16:30:05 Otherwise lispers are relatively busy. 16:30:37 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 16:31:31 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:31:46 madnificent: more so, it removes a system that has (at least conceptual and mostly practical) support for device independence, into something that is essentilly what game programmers face (i.e. no gpu is alike). 16:31:58 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:54 -!- kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:32:58 -!- hitecnologys1 [~No_Name@94.137.35.107] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:34:51 kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:57 Moreover, one o fthe chief rgument of Wayland is about applications being slowed down because they are mostly sending bitmaps... my question is why instead they didn't built up a better a) local communication channel (X11 spec allows for this!) b) not breaking X11 by moving various rendering steps (fonts) to application code c) Writing better vector extension for X11 and fine tuning backing store etc. implementations, ... 16:36:03 ... leading to less "talk" between X11 and app, and providing a way for better support of high-dpi screens (something indeed taken up by MS in their NT6 DWM system) 16:39:34 -!- treyka [~treyka@ip-188-118-20-209.reverse.destiny.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:39:57 where did you see bitmaps being one of the chief arguments of wayland? 16:40:41 -!- antgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-throldmxtlhuejhm] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:40:44 X has a lot of stuff that could easily go away (like the font stuff) because it's terrible and no one uses it anymore 16:41:07 -!- kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:42:04 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:42:50 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA228C8.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Quit: work] 16:43:14 kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:17 nounch [~nounch@188-195-2-219-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 16:44:42 p_l|backup: X11 already implement shared memory communication between local client-server, doesn't it? 16:44:46 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 16:45:32 -!- nha [~prefect@dhcp-15-203.math.tu-berlin.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:46:06 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@235.177.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:47:20 e) They kill off portability aspects of X11, proposing a system that works well for embedded, never-changing devices (and in fact being designed for that), and which is *completely* incapable of supporting more than one driver (because Wayland depends on EGL, and that whole stack is lacking necessary features for such operation, or infact a way to provide such support 16:47:56 Let us never speak of it again. 16:48:09 p_l|backup: oh, you're so pessimistic. give them a few years, then they'll be at the same level as x.org now - with the same cruft, even. 16:48:53 oGMo: the font stuff was outdated in the sense that it didn't cope with newer fonts. Then they gave people Xft2 which renders the font in application, and rejected a proposal for new text system in X11 16:49:04 flip214: s/years/decades/ 16:49:22 -!- kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:49:29 and yeah, kind of EOT - it's ranting and only veeery tangentially related to Lisp 16:49:33 p_l|backup: no, the font stuff is _bad_ 16:50:00 (possibly in the sense that Wayland is a way towards C++ display API hell) 16:50:08 p_l|backup: and RENDER essentially makes a lot of things unnecessary 16:50:24 and in the end, everything is moving to GL 16:50:42 kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:13 DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-2-5.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:45 oGMo: yes, the implementation had to go. However, RENDER isn't necessarily the right way to do fonts, because the effect is that they do *bitmap* rendering using it, and send those bitmaps over X11 (because I don't think Xshm is for small images) 16:52:26 also, it forces each application to handle scaling locally etc. 16:52:29 p_l|backup: i believe cairo uses xshm for everything if the implementation supports it 16:53:55 -!- sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:55:41 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 16:57:07 -!- kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:58:07 Spartsocks. I redefined compile. GAH! 16:58:11 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@host58-157-static.186-82-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:59:01 kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:37 -!- kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:07:14 oGMo: AFAIK Xshm went more for bigger bitmap buffers, not general communication. 17:07:18 kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:32 Anyway, EOT. I'm ranting, and it's off-topic 17:09:07 How do you translate into English "Saisir du texte au kilomètre"? 17:11:50 pjb: something like "#lisp is not an online dictionary" 17:12:47 -!- ZabaQ [~jconnors@85.207.11.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:13:28 p_l|backup: just uses shm for the transfer to a render image 17:13:35 -!- kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:15:34 kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:45 stassats: right. Thanks. I used "on the run". 17:17:04 it was on topic: it was for a lisp blog :-) 17:18:20 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:20:11 snearch [~snearch@g225077202.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:21:21 -!- kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:21:23 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:23:28 kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:47 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-zrxxhlfmhixgtrll] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:29:07 -!- wccoder [~wccoder@S01060026f3c6bad7.no.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:29:28 m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.151] has joined #lisp 17:29:35 -!- kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:30:10 p_l|backup: not to drag out the discussion but i was looking for http://www.x.org/wiki/Development/X12 before .. ran into this doing cl-xcb-xlib .. may be in a more desirable direction, and wayland might have come out of this 17:30:25 kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:34 but it is an encouraging list, imho 17:33:08 paul0 [~paul0@200.146.127.235.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 17:34:33 ikki [~ikki@189.196.112.173] has joined #lisp 17:34:38 fold [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:36:22 -!- kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:37:18 kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:55 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 17:39:26 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 17:39:35 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Client Quit] 17:39:40 flanfl [~flanfl@cpc1-sgyl27-2-0-cust785.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:40:53 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.18] has joined #lisp 17:43:16 -!- kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:44:59 kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:04 -!- teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:47:19 bobbysmith007 [~russ@firewall-dcd1.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:41 teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has joined #lisp 17:49:03 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:50:17 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 17:50:20 -!- kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:51:49 kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:59 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:52:24 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:53:46 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:55:32 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.196.112.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:58:05 -!- kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:58:19 vpaloc [~vpalochko@vinny.palochko.com] has joined #lisp 17:58:29 just curious, how many of you use vim to write common lisp? 17:59:00 -!- vpaloc [~vpalochko@vinny.palochko.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:59:07 I did years ago. 17:59:30 paul0: I do 17:59:54 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 18:00:20 kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:24 flip214: any tips for working with cl and vim? There is something like slime for it? 18:00:31 yes, slimv 18:00:44 http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=2531 18:00:45 cool 18:00:52 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.172.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 18:01:05 there are even some video tutorials for it 18:01:21 antgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-egejfjmedhaelmdq] has joined #lisp 18:01:56 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.23.207] has joined #lisp 18:02:58 I'll check later, thanks flip214 18:03:36 now I'm learning vim and trying to work with ruby on rails with it, later I'll try to use it to write some lisp code 18:05:22 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 18:05:42 paul0: do it the other way around ;) 18:05:50 -!- kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:06:20 you're just learning vim, there's still time to say no to it 18:06:30 and learn Emacs instead 18:06:51 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 18:07:29 kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:30 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-96-160.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 18:07:37 atsidi [~nkraft_@mail.tai.edu] has joined #lisp 18:08:19 -!- snearch [~snearch@g225077202.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 18:08:41 stassats: I like emacs, but vim is so lightweight, and omnipresent 18:08:58 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:09:31 paul0: emacs can open files on remote machines .. ssh is omnipresent, too ;) 18:09:50 or sudo, etc 18:10:03 lightweight? that's news to me 18:10:17 emacs is almost an OS, sure it can do anything :) 18:10:35 and i don't have vim on my windows laptop and on my android phone! 18:10:51 no modes! 18:10:52 paul0: it can not do everything too 18:10:59 oGMo: ":e sftp://host//filename" works in vim, too 18:11:10 it can do the exact amount of things you want it to do 18:11:15 oh shit, I've started an editor wars 18:11:17 stassats: gvim for windows? 18:11:25 ikki [~ikki@189.247.245.149] has joined #lisp 18:11:32 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@204.19.201.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:11:37 *j_king* could really care less. 18:11:39 paul0: you call that a war? 18:11:44 Everything is lightweight compared to your web browser. 18:11:52 paul0: this doesn't even qualify as a minor skirmish 18:11:53 foom: that is a sad fact 18:11:53 though for lisp programming it's hard to beat the emacs toolchain 18:12:04 no, just kidding, it is because it almost end up in people pissed off 18:12:10 nha [~prefect@g229104179.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:12:19 I'd like hemlock to be a bit more finished ... 18:12:23 paul0: the emacs stuff for lisp programming is hard to beat, but you can still get plenty of stuff done in vim 18:12:30 gilligan_ [~gilligan_@p4FEA4DD2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:30 hah, no worries. pissing off the old gods is part of the process of learning lisp (: 18:12:35 j_king: yeah, that's why I've asked about lisp programmers who use vim 18:12:42 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:12:58 antifuchs: lol 18:13:07 paul0: i'd be surprised if there were any who stuck with it. many try, but I'm not aware of any who advocate it. 18:13:08 -!- kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:13:12 paul0: nowadays, with slimv, you can look around stacktraces, inspect local variables, debug other threads, and much more via vim 18:13:25 j_king: me! 18:13:35 flip214: heathen! :p 18:14:19 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:14:26 I've started learning vim last week, (bought the Practical Vim, from pragprog.com), there is some interesting features I've never used before 18:14:36 kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:45 like the dot commands, there is something like this in emacs? (I'm no emacs expert) 18:14:58 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-199.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:15:01 vim's not that bad. i used it for like 10 years before switching. 18:15:08 paul0: emacs is <<<< this way 18:15:13 paul0: emacs is more powerful than vim 18:15:22 H4ns: both are turing-complete 18:15:26 flip214: no, it's >>>> that way 18:15:28 flip214: "blah" 18:15:30 paul0: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/275842/is-there-a-repeat-last-command-in-emacs 18:15:38 actually, I've met lots of people who used emacs and vim, but I've stick with the simpler editors (like TextMate now) 18:15:46 antoszka: I've got the channels in alphabetical order, and "emacs" < "lisp" 18:15:56 flip214: i have them in order of importance. 18:16:01 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:09 (or something along these lines) 18:16:22 I'd give quite a bit, honestly, to have a vim-like editor on top of common lisp 18:16:24 paul0: this channel is about common lisp, and most people here use emacs to program in common lisp. 18:16:25 antoszka: ah, of course #emacs comes far after #lisp ... even after #vim, right? ;) 18:16:40 H4ns: yeah, I know that 18:16:48 flip214: it's not preinstalled, as in "not omnipresent" 18:16:49 dlowe: that's why I'm hoping for hemlock to get vim key bindings 18:16:55 H4ns: it all started because I've asked about lisp programmers who use vim :) 18:17:01 key bindings aren't enough, as viper mode has shown 18:17:21 I'd want it built from the ground up 18:17:23 stassats: emacs is not preinstalled on windows, too ... at least last time I checked. Unless you confuse it with a renamed "notepad.exe" ;) 18:17:53 paul0: you see, a few carefully chosen keywords in the right channel, and it gets lively! 18:17:56 flip214: i wasn't claiming that it was 18:18:28 then what's the argument? contradiction isn't ;) 18:18:31 *dlowe* wonders idly how hard it would be. 18:18:54 paul0: You either enjoy modal editing or not. It has been my experience that if you are willing to use a mainstream common lisp, there is enough support in the vim community that you'll be able to write common lisp code. If, however, you are seekign to personally enhance your editor, vim makes a poor showing against emacs. 18:19:09 flip214: it is, the argument that vim is omnipresent was false 18:19:37 and the counterclaim to this argument needs windows? ouch 18:19:38 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 18:19:47 -!- k0001 [~k0001@200.5.223.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:19:56 oh, of course ... on the 6502 there was no vim, too 18:19:57 I don't know, I should first become an emacs expert, learn everything I could, and then became a vim expert, learning everything I could about it too. Then I could say which one is better 18:20:04 -!- kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:20:05 flip214: it was windows and android, if you look carefully 18:20:16 paul0: I'm both, and it's a tossup 18:20:25 i am more curious about emacs on android actually 18:20:27 because everyone says X editor can do EVERYTHING, I assume both can do 18:20:40 paul0: But at the end, it's going to be which kind of editing you want, and what you want out of an editor. I personally think modally, and have never found the need to extend my editor. I have always written in vim. 18:20:45 flip214: and i wasn't the one to use "omni", which is a pretty strong qualification 18:21:02 <|3b|> from what i've seen, "omnipresent" only works as an argument for vi, not vim anyway 18:21:25 -!- steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-iakzfyxcvwcabmeh] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:21:29 kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:31 paul0: So at least rest assured, there are people who write common lisp, every day for their paid job, who use vim exclusively. Well, at least there's one. 18:21:39 paul0: I've done that already. emacs is better, IMO. 18:22:07 k0001 [~k0001@200.70.5.197] has joined #lisp 18:22:24 dlowe: the thing that keeps me from investing time into hemlock is the fear that _every_ extension (swank, sftp, ...) has to be rewritten, too 18:22:27 at the end, looks like it is a pretty personal decision 18:22:37 Pretty much 18:22:44 flip214: implement elisp in CL ;) 18:22:53 anyway, any kind of presence is a poor argument, as long as it is available, or one will end up writing lisp code in ed 18:22:59 flip214: slime would have to be rewritten, not swank 18:23:08 dlowe: oh yes, sorry. 18:23:18 flip214: but yes. But only the bits you personally use. 18:23:20 oGMo: I've thought about interpreting vim-script ;/ 18:23:23 dlowe: while at it, rewriting swank would be cool too 18:23:39 because it's a mess 18:23:39 stassats: I don't much see why 18:23:46 but it's a working mess 18:23:47 stassats: sure, I'm just looking for the text editor which better helps me to write code, but it depends on the user perspective anyway, some prefer emacs and others vim 18:23:59 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 18:24:08 I use emacs to write code and vim to do sysadmin tasks 18:24:13 dlowe: not for all features for all implementations 18:24:27 In the end, it's the benefits of customization vs the benefits of standardization. 18:24:41 and both have HUGE improvements to write code, that's why this debate still exists 18:24:43 splitting swank in several reusable libraries and using existing reusable libraries would be a win 18:24:49 s/in/into/ 18:24:50 well, what keeps the emacs people from jumping to hemlock? 18:25:18 isn't that what they'd dream about? 18:25:36 because some things, like, function arglists or backtraces are useful to have without the whole shebang 18:25:39 I remember having read some rants about elisp, wishing for a CL underneath 18:26:07 and all the attempts to split such functionality ended up with swank side diverging and advancing independently 18:26:11 I've tried using hemlock and it was a sufficiently bad experience that I wasn't compelled to switch 18:26:16 tromey is working on translating the C in emacs to CL 18:26:17 or extend it 18:26:54 haha ouch hemlock 18:27:14 antifuchs: do you know more about it? 18:27:27 I've tried using it a little 18:27:30 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:39 which hemlock are we talking about? 18:27:44 it's a valiant effort, but I think it suffers from neglect 18:27:47 phemlock, I think 18:27:49 -!- kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:27:50 (and yeah, what stassats says) 18:28:01 git://gitorious.org/hemlock/hemlock.git 18:28:26 ok, it just can't work properly for me, neither tty nor qt backends 18:28:33 hmmm, EMACS AND VIM PEOPLE UNITE! all for a common editor, hemlock!! 18:28:43 -!- SHUPFS [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:28:54 kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:00 the qt works for me ... sort of. I don't know how to handle that thing without vim keybindings ... 18:29:33 http://tromey.com/blog/?p=778 18:29:48 i was thinking about writing My Own Editor, not just using Qt as a canvas, but by reusing its editing widgets and stuff 18:29:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:30:01 -!- jjkola_work [c064782a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.120.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:30:55 and with some standardized communication protocol, like JSON or something, and use not only for CL and Scheme, but for Python or Javascript, or what have you 18:31:15 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129025233.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:31:47 steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-mwubykheytwmauts] has joined #lisp 18:32:05 -!- antonv [2e35c344@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:33:14 sadly vim has dropped support for ecl some time ago... would've been enough for my needs (mostly) 18:33:15 Qt is awful 18:33:36 flip214: do you use vim to edit lisp? 18:33:45 lcc: yes 18:34:44 asvil: thanks for your profound opinion 18:34:55 I hope somebody comes up with something CL-y for light table (: 18:35:00 syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-160-39-135-88.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 18:35:02 -!- kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:35:11 antifuchs: some things can be hacked with Slime 18:35:22 sure can 18:35:32 easily, even 18:35:38 yet here's an editor that looks like it's getting some nice traction 18:35:55 might be interesting what people who don't want to hack on slime come up with 18:36:02 looks just overhyped to me 18:36:13 (and AFAICT, there are a few people who don't want to hack on slime) 18:36:17 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.23.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:36:26 not really convinced that light table is anything but "neat looking" 18:36:32 that has never stopped something from being successfun 18:36:40 "successful", although. nice typo. 18:37:03 fake it 'til you make it, etc. 18:37:10 j_king: perfect opportunity for correcting that impression by trying it out! 18:37:20 antifuchs: i don't want to hack on slime, but it the path of least resistance 18:37:25 kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:34 stassats: so, yay for more paths of little resistance! 18:37:48 antifuchs: and hack clojure? tried that. stack traces, recur, and all the damn names for things have changed into unixy shorthand. 18:37:51 actually, I was referring to people who actually don't want to use slime at all (: 18:37:51 :p 18:37:54 j_king: aw 18:38:05 *antifuchs* sobs at your story 18:38:06 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:38:09 hehe 18:38:10 antifuchs: well, who cares about such people 18:38:18 antifuchs: let them burn. 18:38:24 smh 18:38:28 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 18:39:18 i'm sure a bunch of people will like light table just fine. 18:40:08 erm. they probably already do. 18:40:14 *j_king* having a case of mondays. 18:40:41 one thing is too infer how useful it will be based on a video, it's unclear that it is actually a productive way to write code 18:40:54 well, there's a demo out and it seems pretty nice 18:41:04 I haven't tested it, but I like the concept. Remembered me about http://worrydream.com/LadderOfAbstraction/ 18:41:19 -!- kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:41:45 kirin`_ [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:16 -!- kirin`_ [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:48:35 kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:35 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:48:57 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:33 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.153.187] has joined #lisp 18:49:46 -!- mikaelj [~tic@c83-248-165-159.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:50:28 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:51:19 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:53:41 -!- gilligan_ [~gilligan_@p4FEA4DD2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:54:06 -!- kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:54:54 jesusito [~user@88.pool85-54-115.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 18:55:15 kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:59 -!- kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:57:50 mikaelj [~tic@c83-248-165-159.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:59:31 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 18:59:38 paul0: I use CL to write vi: https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blobs/master/common-lisp/ed/ed.lisp 18:59:53 just joking, it was to write ed(1), not vi :-) 19:01:38 heh 19:02:15 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:02:33 well, vi can be written too, the display functionality would be more complex, though 19:03:40 hmmm, perhaps some parts of hemlock could be used? 19:03:57 kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:26 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:04:26 that's the worst parts for hemlock 19:04:56 well, hemlock has the display things sorted out ... only keyboard bindings are still bad ;) 19:05:01 and modes, of course 19:05:14 Oladon_work [~Oladon@np34.co.returnpath.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:21 for some values of sorted out, it utterly fails for me 19:05:37 maybe i'm using a wrong terminal 19:07:21 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:22 -!- kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:09:48 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:10:30 neither works for you? tty nor qt? 19:10:44 are you using the hemlock from gitorious? there are several versions floating around 19:10:56 yes, yes 19:11:16 hmmm 19:11:49 kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:53 maybe my terminal emulator is not cosher 19:13:13 jayne [~jayne@freenode/staff/jayne] has joined #lisp 19:13:55 and i think it was working before, dtc seems to be the on to blame 19:16:50 frx [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 19:17:47 -!- kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:19:32 kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:50 Is there a better pattern in lisp than "loop :for item :in list :for i=0 :then (1+ i)" for when you need the element and its index? 19:20:07 I.e. a python enumerate equivalent/some dolist/CLHS magic I don't know, etc? 19:20:58 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.32] has joined #lisp 19:21:01 (loop for i item in list for index from 0 19:21:03 lcc [~lcc-pi@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 19:21:09 s/i // 19:21:25 *redline6561_* tries it 19:21:30 though if you're trying to write Python in Lisp, you're probably doing it wrong 19:21:43 *redline6561_* could've sworn there was a way to have dotimes or dolist manage this under the covers 19:22:18 Oladon_work: Granted, I don't think I'm trying to do Python in Lisp. Enumerate is just a useful analogue to the functionality I seek. 19:23:02 I want to redefine #'swank::present-repl-results. how can i do that without modifying swank sources? 19:23:15 redline6561_: just checking :) 19:24:24 frx: in what way do you want to modify it? 19:24:31 -!- kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:24:35 :) 19:24:46 redline6561_: there's no and was no way 19:24:51 I want it to print empty line instead of "; No values" 19:25:10 redline6561_: I gathered. Thanks. :from will do. 19:25:24 talking to oneself won't do 19:25:32 O_O 19:25:34 heh. 19:25:35 frx: why? 19:25:55 because i find it ugly 19:26:06 and cluttering 19:26:52 really? why then do you use a repl? 19:27:42 why do you like to argue about personal preference instead of just answering (or ignoring) the question? 19:27:59 because i want to 19:28:08 I'll do the ignoring then 19:28:15 frx: just arrange to have the new function definition load after swank is loaded 19:28:36 well, and because the preference is... strange 19:28:45 frx: (load "swank-patch.lisp") 19:28:57 and requires to go out of your way to achieve it 19:28:57 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:29:23 It's also probably not actually what he wants. 19:29:27 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:31 dlow where do I put that? I tried something similar in .swank but it seems .swank is loaded before all the function definitions 19:30:08 contribs are loaded on demand after connecting 19:31:24 yeah, but then the question is "how do I make my own contrib outside the slime source tree?" 19:31:35 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:32:32 or "why do i spend so much time on things which don't matter?" 19:32:51 that's most things in computers 19:33:40 seems like you could use slime-connected-hook and have slime eval the load function from there 19:42:37 p_l|backup: thanks for the rant 19:43:42 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-87-19.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 19:46:09 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:50:52 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-160-39-135-88.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:52:47 -!- anddam [~andrea@199.19.224.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:53:13 RiskyBlit [~riskyblit@91-66-77-202-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:54:36 -!- sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:59:43 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-duuuitbswnjmsukt] has joined #lisp 20:00:30 rbarraud [~rbarraud@125-237-76-181.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:00:30 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 20:01:22 hi! 20:01:30 Some interface design question 20:01:43 I'm having both pure and stateful interfaces and datastructure 20:01:55 pure: is a pure datastructure. 20:01:56 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 20:02:19 Should I call the strateful one stateful: ? Or stateful: or stateful:!tree! 20:02:27 or something like that? 20:02:57 anddam [~andrea@199.19.224.42] has joined #lisp 20:02:59 stateful:{tree} ? 20:06:04 -!- bitonic [~user@host86-133-193-80.range86-133.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:06:24 (and btw, anyone planning to go to ILC 2012 in Kyoto this October?) 20:07:08 -!- lcc [~lcc-pi@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:08:00 So what's the best way to convince my boss that it's not a personnel risk to expand our common lisp codebase? He's concerned that we wouldn't be able to find people who are able/excited by the prospect of it relative to other mainstream languages. 20:08:16 herbieB: tell him about #lisp :P 20:08:28 Or just tell him I'd be excited about it. 20:08:54 strange that (string 42) doesn't work ... 20:09:08 herbieB: expand? you already have a code base? 20:09:22 pnq [~nick@AC81CABE.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 20:09:28 ITA's acquisition by google means there are zillions of lisp programmers out there who won't be writing the world's next airport middleware 20:09:49 Guthur: Yeah, I have the entire webapp portion written in CL, which I convinced him would be low risk. Now I'd like to expand that to some of the backend software (I'm already all over the technical reasons CL is up to snuff) 20:10:16 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:10:26 herbieB: tell him that any good developpers can pick up CL with PCL. :) 20:10:59 daimrod: I'm definitely working that angle, that I wouldn't want to hire anyone that could pick up any language relatively quickly. 20:11:07 He's a bit curmudgeony 20:11:32 wait... /wouldn't/ want to hire anyone who can pick up languages? 20:11:34 s/wouldn't/would/? 20:11:41 So he'd like to see a bit more proof that we wouldn't spend a year in development, then be screwed because everyone would avoid working for us because they'd be using CL 20:11:46 lcc [~lcc-pi@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 20:11:52 Oladon_work: Sorry, yeah, the way that makes sense :P 20:11:54 heh 20:11:59 ok, just making sure :P 20:12:29 herbieB: It's awesome that you've already managed to get them using it partially. Just tell him "Oladon on IRC says it'll be fine" 20:12:44 herbieB: I think good engineers are always willing to broaden their horizons, push beyond their comfort zone 20:12:57 Oladon_work: Haha, I'm not sure that would work. What would really be awesome is success stories out there from people who have been able to reliably build a team aroudn a CL project 20:13:07 so if they are scare off because it is a little different then they may not have a good mindset 20:13:33 Guthur: I agree, and to be fair the selling point is not as much as "we use CL" as "we empower developers to make their case for what they think is best" 20:13:43 herbieB: Ah. I'm afraid I can't provide that for you, as I'm still working on introducing even a little CL to our dev group 20:13:52 stupid prejudices... 20:13:58 Pretty much what I'm runnign into 20:14:21 syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-160-39-135-88.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 20:14:49 Oladon_work: Work in chicago? :P 20:15:08 herbieB: nope... work on the internet? ;) 20:15:37 Ha, not on Tuesdays and Thursdays 20:16:01 Sad day. Thursday is my WFH day. 20:16:10 Friday could become the new Thursday! 20:16:17 herbieB: http://danweinreb.org/blog/16 maybe? 20:16:26 Nah, MWF is free-catered-lunch-in-the-office day 20:16:55 http://www.pchristensen.com/blog/lisp-companies/ 20:16:57 s/free-catered-lunch-in-the-office/throw-away-your-bagged-lunch-eat-our-soggy-sandwiches/ 20:17:01 flip214: why is it strange? 42 has no strings anywhere near it 20:17:08 sykopomp: err... no way. 20:17:16 sykopomp: we have /good/ caterers. 20:17:21 STRING only works on thing which are related to strings 20:17:37 s/soggy-sandwiches/well-catered-soggy-sandwiches/ 20:17:48 like symbols, which have a name of type string, or characters, which are the building parts of strings 20:18:03 *Oladon_work* snickers at sykopomp 20:18:18 sykopomp: I pity your sad work experiences. 20:18:38 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.113.210] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:18:49 *sykopomp* gets delicious pizza on free lunch days, although soggy sandwiches are not unheard of. 20:18:57 Kryztof: Thanks 20:18:57 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.113.210] has joined #lisp 20:19:07 Kryztof: I shoudl add our company to it! 20:19:39 sykopomp: ... pizza? 20:19:45 mmm. pizza. 20:20:03 sykopomp: we had burger bar today. Wednesday is supreme salad bar, and Friday (this week) is some sort of Mexican food 20:20:06 Taco bar is always a big hit 20:21:32 DrForr [~jgoff@2.28.136.199] has joined #lisp 20:21:37 -!- atsidi [~nkraft_@mail.tai.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving, leaving, gone...] 20:23:03 -!- elliottcable is now known as erparse 20:23:03 I want to work in CL full time. I threw together a small CL web app for our last hack day. I'm out-numbered by the Clojure fans and we're entrenched in Python throughout. Slow going on the conversion front. 20:23:34 Yeah, but you'd make fun of me all day for using vim :( 20:23:57 Nah. We have lots of people who work with vim here. I don't actually make fun of them. Much. ;) 20:24:06 it'll be easier to work full-time in CL if employers were less obsessed about relocating everyone. 20:24:17 sykopomp: agreed. 20:24:34 sykopomp: nods 20:24:52 They said I'd be WFH full-time in the early 90's. 20:25:21 telework! 20:25:33 Or if more people from #lisp lived in Chciago :P 20:25:40 kirin` [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:43 heh 20:26:31 -!- erparse is now known as alexgordon 20:26:48 gilligan_ [~gilligan_@p4FEA4DD2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:56 -!- alexgordon [~me@ell.io] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:27:02 I'll go where the Lisp work is 20:27:11 I have a friend who works at fermi... 20:27:15 elliottcable [~me@ell.io] has joined #lisp 20:27:22 me too, as long as it's within 45 minutes of where I live. 20:27:26 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@p5B0C3544.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:53 I already moved once for a lisp job, I'm not gonna do it again. 20:28:12 Well, I'll let him know that I found at least a few people in #lisp who woudl be interested. I'd hope to get him to be allow remote working. 20:28:21 But the feeling I'm getting is that if I can get that, finding people won't be too hard 20:28:39 Precisely. 20:28:42 Guthur: to North Korea? 20:28:44 I can certainly understand the adverse if one has family and what not 20:29:03 stassats: what's the benefits like 20:29:03 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:29:04 also the massive, unnecessary PITA. 20:29:08 If North Korea used Lisp, they wouldn't be in the situation they're in now. 20:29:16 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-242-169.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:29:17 Guthur: you get to live in BEST KOREA 20:29:27 And it's hard to relocate and build new relationships and make new friends after a certain age 20:29:27 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:53 j_king: Certainly. 20:29:55 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-239-141.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:30:11 Oladon_work: maybe the started to spend too much time on tools, like editors and compilers, that's what brought them down 20:30:26 they did sack their head of military recently, so there is an opening 20:30:29 well or you learn a language which is widely used by people who like shooting into their knees, so java would be a good choice in that situation 20:30:54 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:30:58 j_king: that assume that one has friends in the current location 20:31:07 stassats: Indeed, it seems plausible. 20:31:09 stassats: sure 20:31:09 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.172.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:31:32 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 20:31:36 s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-226-162.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:37 *j_king* always have friends on the interwebs no matter where his meat is. 20:31:44 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-21-219.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:59 EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:03 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-242-169.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:34 speaking (briefly) as an employer, I find that the need for meatspace interaction can outweigh the current skillset 20:35:51 jjumbii [~jjumbii@99-99-73-168.lightspeed.chrlnc.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:08 so I might well prefer to hire a programmer in $place than a CL programmer not willing to relocate to $place, even if the job will involve lots of CL programming 20:36:18 because the job will probably involve lots of other stuff too 20:37:13 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.153.187] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:37:52 Kryztof: that surprises me, with the sort of telepresence tools available these days. My experience with Lisp and Erlang also involves employers constantly complaining about being unable to find talent, yet refusing to do any sort of remote. To top it all off, 'local' has ended up translating to 'constantly interrupted'. 20:38:13 flippery [~flip@host170-215-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:38:19 remotely, you can be interrupted by #lisp 20:38:20 but I haven't witnessed it from the employer side, I guess :) 20:38:23 That's why WFH days are the most productive... 20:38:29 stassats: That's not interruption, per se... 20:38:52 telepresence is ok, but (if anything, at least in under-resourced teams) more interrupting 20:39:04 I find meatspace workplaces noisy and full of people who like to squeeze air through their meat when I'm trying to think. ;) 20:39:27 but maybe I'm talking a different kind of programming from you 20:39:34 Kryztof: Have you found people that have been turned off working for you because of CL? 20:39:38 Though I understand that for the non-technical bits of work, high-bandwidth in-person communication is desireable. 20:39:39 -!- jjumbii [~jjumbii@99-99-73-168.lightspeed.chrlnc.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:39:43 herbieB: no 20:39:57 (nor erlang, nor R, nor even C++ :) 20:40:32 What's the rampup time you've seen for someone to be decent contributing member in CL? 20:40:35 Python, on the other hand... 20:40:38 *Oladon_work* twitches 20:40:38 I've done PHP when the work environment has been rewarding enough, fwiw. 20:40:40 Given that they have years of experience in other dynamic languages 20:40:48 herbieB: short 20:41:13 Oladon_work: Are you talking 2 weeks or 3 months? 20:41:16 (not Kryztof's answer though) :P 20:41:50 if it doesn't involve writing something big from scratch 20:42:03 so far, CL has not been the barrier, but our business domain is highly technical 20:42:14 herbieB: given interest as well as something to work on and mess with, I'd say 2-3 weeks to learn, a lifetime to master 20:42:23 (a couple of days, in the case of some programmers) 20:42:31 *Oladon_work* nods at stassats 20:43:46 I whip up small CL applications for our hack days and most decent programmers are able to grok what's going on when I give the run down. 20:44:47 seems like lead time would be short. 20:45:10 but a lot of young programmers I talk to these days will jump to another job just so they can work in their fav language 20:46:00 which is more frequently javascript for some reason. 20:46:47 gigamonkey: pm ok 20:47:03 sure. 20:47:05 (oops, that was a question) 20:47:26 *stassats* fails to imagine why would it be not "ok" 20:49:54 maybe gigamonkey is trying to get some telepresent work done 20:50:28 well, you can even swear in private if it's not ok and nobody will know 20:55:28 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.63.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:56:36 snearch [~snearch@g225077202.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:58:41 gimbal [~gimbal@mo-76-0-0-116.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:13 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-199.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:59:28 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:00:15 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:00:40 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 21:00:49 SHUPFS [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:29 -!- flanfl [~flanfl@cpc1-sgyl27-2-0-cust785.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:06:19 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-166-21-1-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:10 frx: you can write your own REPL. http://paste.lisp.org/display/18280 or change to an implementation that doesn't print "; No Value". 21:08:39 flip214: this is not emacs lisp. CL:STRING takes a string designator: a character, a string or a symbol. emacs lisp string takes a character ie. a small integer. 21:08:55 several characters actually. 21:09:19 Hi, I'm following this tutorial: http://ghostopera.org/blog/2012/06/24/the-newbie-guide-to-common-lisp/, using quicklisp and cl-project. Reloading the example project doesn't work in the most trivial cases, only copying it into ~/quicklisp/local-projects. 21:09:21 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:09:46 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.245.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:10:49 -!- DrForr [~jgoff@2.28.136.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:12:23 -!- k0001 [~k0001@200.70.5.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:13:24 phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:13:25 -!- phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Changing host] 21:13:25 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 21:13:54 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@p5B0C3544.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:16:12 flippery: are you sure you're in the right directory? (what says ,pwd in SLIME?) 21:18:31 do you know of any command line (or even gui) tools that aim for providing a Mac Spotlight-like db/autocompletion-driven application launcher for linux which would actually be worth looking at? 21:18:52 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:19:00 ikki [~ikki@189.247.245.149] has joined #lisp 21:19:20 this question is a bit icky since the command line itself does most of the things so much more efficient and accurate 21:19:41 #lisp is probably not the right place to ask this ;) 21:19:42 sorry 21:20:23 nounch: unforgivable. Write a lisp library in repentance. 21:20:53 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-160-39-135-88.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:21:04 syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-160-39-135-88.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 21:21:22 sykopomp: i think you wouldn't want to run my code ;) 21:21:30 at tleast not lisp code 21:22:41 -!- ecraven [~user@www.nexoid.at] has quit [Quit: brb] 21:23:17 flippery: btw you don't have to copy your project, symbolic links work. 21:26:40 nounch: How does Spotlight do autocompletion? 21:26:51 nounch: in unix, the equivalent functionality AFAIK is locate/updatedb. 21:27:25 pjb: it doesn't, i think, i was refering to the fancy, very useful (;)) "auto-updating/completing" list of matches 21:28:21 -!- antgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-egejfjmedhaelmdq] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:28:35 nounch: so you want to find matches of words inside all the files of your hard disks, is that correct? 21:28:40 pjb: well, i know a bunch of similar db-based solutions, but i always came to a point where they were not able to update as far as i was removing files etc.; the filesystem is huge, though 21:28:57 as i said, the question was not very clever 21:29:19 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.151] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:29:22 I don't know the file format of the locate/updatedb database. Have a look at their sources, and see if you can use that file to do completion. If not, you'll have to write it yourself. 21:29:27 pjb: classic case of grep/ack, i know 21:29:40 if i was just out for filenaes, i would use find 21:29:44 You could use linux file system notifications to update the database as soon as the file system is updated. 21:29:59 ecraven [~user@www.nexoid.at] has joined #lisp 21:30:21 You seen indeed to be confusing file names vs. file contents. Spotlight and locate index the file contents. 21:30:21 -!- steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-mwubykheytwmauts] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:30:24 steffi_s_ [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-shwtirhfhsmuddga] has joined #lisp 21:30:50 err, no Spotlight does it. locate works only on the pathnames. I'm confused. 21:31:07 Ok, so you will have to write it yourself. 21:31:14 it would be "nice" (not very useful) to have a search bar where i just type in parts of a file name and it would suggest matches (i.e. matches within file contents/filenames/project setups/program names/...) and display them ranked by a certain usable ranking algorithm 21:31:36 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has left #lisp 21:31:51 pjb: spotlight has a metadata store so it does some sort of classification right from the start 21:33:17 i did never use spotlight, so i cannot judge, but since many people/programmers are more or less successfully using it, i thought it must be of a certain value 21:33:48 compared to common cl tools, it is pretty much feature-less, though 21:34:09 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.98.220] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:34:24 well, a clever ranking algorithm + metadata selection could add usability value, i think, not completely sure 21:35:00 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 21:35:16 -!- Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:35:48 -!- steffi_s_ [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-shwtirhfhsmuddga] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:35:50 steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-vutxznexiyfyvmrk] has joined #lisp 21:37:37 Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has joined #lisp 21:38:40 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:42:19 -!- nha [~prefect@g229104179.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:43:03 bitonic [~user@host86-138-100-47.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:44:55 interface design -- so many possibilities. 21:45:19 if some of you have ideas on how to design a collection API, tell me. 21:46:43 BrianRice` [~water@71-217-113-209.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:37 -!- BrianRice [~water@71-217-115-15.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:49:10 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 21:51:04 -!- BrianRice` [~water@71-217-113-209.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:52:20 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 21:52:22 -!- chu [~chu@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:53:34 Fare: have you could anything publicly available wrt to the collection lib? 21:54:44 guthur: it's all on http://github.com/fare/lisp-interface-library/ 21:55:06 if anyone has suggestions on how to improve the API, better do it before it gets users. 21:57:48 fare: not in quicklisp yet? 21:58:04 Guthur, hopefully in the next release or two. 21:58:16 Guthur, I'm adding a stateful variant right now. 21:58:31 so stupid questions like: 21:59:06 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 21:59:22 joining two maps -- what's the API? for pure joins, I had (defgeneric join ( map1 map2)) where mappings from map1 override those from map2 22:00:19 for stateful joins, I want a (defgeneric stateful:join! ( map1 map2)) where map1 is side-effected, but mappings from map2 take precedence. 22:00:22 that's subtle 22:00:26 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:00:29 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:00:42 should I have ! on side-effecting methods in the stateful variant? 22:00:51 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 22:02:21 I've not really seen that convention, is it common? 22:02:26 k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 22:02:40 should I keep the same method names as for pure API, albeit with a different (but related) calling conventions? 22:02:48 it's common in the Scheme world. 22:02:59 possibly also in the Clojure world 22:03:21 I was suspecting Scheme 22:03:33 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-160-39-135-88.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:03:44 Fare: when I'm in doubt i tend to stay closer to the spirit of CL wrt nameing things 22:03:48 there is always njoin, is that not more idiomatic for CL? 22:03:56 obviously (pure:join pure: m1 m2) is very different from (stateful:join stateful: m1 m2) 22:04:18 and should the stateful variant return the joined map or no values? 22:04:22 -!- flippery [~flip@host170-215-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:04:43 plenty of small details like that 22:06:35 Fare: I think returning the result would cause less surprises 22:07:07 again would idiomatic of destructive CL funcs, afaict 22:07:37 -!- gilligan_ [~gilligan_@p4FEA4DD2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:07:52 cl:sort is destructive isn't it? it returns list 22:12:07 ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:13:51 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:14:37 Anyone have an thoughts on the idea of using the Java Reflection API via ABCL (or ACL) to automatically define CLOS classes and methods? 22:15:44 I'm thinking, maybe it could make it easier to develop bridges onto Java APIs with CLOS, not sure if it may've been done before though? 22:16:58 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:17:00 -!- snearch [~snearch@g225077202.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:17:45 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:18:27 sysfault [~exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 22:19:24 Heck I'm not even sure if the question makes sense - just looking for something that could automatically define a CLOS class and related methods, if given a Java class name onto which those classes and methods would serve as a bridge via the implementation's FFI 22:20:41 -!- punee [~punee@set25-1-88-166-168-141.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: punee] 22:20:54 Fare: about collection API, I like how in OpenStep you have immutable classes, and mutable subclasses. 22:20:58 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 22:21:06 sharenothing [~user@ool-ae2cc556.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:22 Fare: I would call (or (gethash k m1) (gethash k m2)) merging. I'd call join something like (gethash (gethash k m1) m2). 22:22:37 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:22:41 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:23:13 Fare: in CL the convention is nmerge, not merge! (but then, merge is taken for lists). 22:24:35 gimbal: isn't there something in abcl doing already that in their FFI module? 22:25:22 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:25:54 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:42 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:27:38 pjb: not sure, kinda naive about it I know. I've read about ABCL's JavaFFI. My understanding is that it provides kind of a baseline FFI onto Java, not necessarily with any fluff or tooling with regards to defining CLOS classes 22:28:33 Not sure if there may be any more tooling in ABCL, as such 22:28:37 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:31:59 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 22:33:44 k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 22:35:13 pulse40 [~pulse40@c-98-198-237-163.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:35:34 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:36:14 Sorella [~quildreen@187-127-252-58.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 22:36:14 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@187-127-252-58.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Changing host] 22:36:14 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 22:39:51 nobody else is even trying to implement restarts? wtf, it seems obviously better? everyone's saying it's too complicated for them, am i missing something? it seems simpler to me, because it makes any sense. :/ 22:40:08 Fare: how about a destination argument? 22:40:39 what gui editors have been made for s-expressions? 22:41:40 i keep picturing something with like colorful circles that you drag out of bins and pop together. so i wondered what prior art there is of ways to make s-exps by dragging stuf around. 22:42:08 -!- DaDaDOSPrompt [~DaDaDOSPr@75-163-226-75.clsp.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:42:31 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-duuuitbswnjmsukt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:44:47 or i wondered about prior art on another part of that idea: what small lisp subsets/dsls are designed to be easy to make fun stuff with? 22:45:19 *Oladon_work* boggles 22:45:26 mungojelly: somebody reinvents that every once in a while, but the only places where I think it might work is on tablets with no keyboards and/or if you're teaching very small children 22:45:46 we're all very small children in every language we don't know yet. :) 22:45:51 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81CABE.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Changing host] 22:45:52 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 22:46:38 mungojelly: I am a very small child for a very short time when i'm learning a new language. Not that useful, but i remember playing with logo as a kid, stuff like that is actually good for teaching 22:46:40 another advantage to that style of interface is discoverability. you've got a bin full of a few parts, relevant to some domain (making fun sounds and flashing lights, for instance). you can see visually what pieces you have to play with. 22:47:42 anyway i knew y'all were going to try to talk me out of it, but what were those people who reinvented it, so i can not wheelreinvent myself, please? :) 22:48:01 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.113.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:48:31 mungojelly: you might be interested in The Little Schemer 22:48:33 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:48:45 Not quite what you're describing as far as visuals, but similar style 22:48:47 mungojelly: http://slidetocode.com/ first google result for lisp ipad 22:49:49 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:50:23 you don't know off the top of your head some good DSLs for making fun little toys? come on, what kind of party is this. reminds me of how i searched the debian packages for "sex" earlier today and the only result was, like, a purity test. 22:50:25 mungojelly: http://blocky.io/ heres one in common lisp for makeing games 22:50:56 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:51:04 check out the screencasts 22:51:23 ok cool, will do, thank you :) 22:51:34 DaDaDOSPrompt [~DaDaDOSPr@75-163-226-75.clsp.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:45 mungojelly: check out #lispgames too 22:55:56 -!- sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:56:26 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:56:33 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.142.171.176] has joined #lisp 22:56:47 Bacteria [~Bacteria@2001:388:608c:946:d179:a91d:4c56:8e35] has joined #lisp 23:02:14 -!- gimbal [~gimbal@mo-76-0-0-116.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: Rooms  iPhone IRC Client  http://www.roomsapp.mobi] 23:03:08 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 23:04:33 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 23:05:14 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:07:09 k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 23:09:07 -!- bitonic [~user@host86-138-100-47.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:09:18 -!- steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-vutxznexiyfyvmrk] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 23:11:23 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 23:11:47 -!- pjb is now known as Guest10040 23:15:33 -!- Guest10040 is now known as pjb 23:15:48 -!- Oladon_work [~Oladon@np34.co.returnpath.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:16:02 gimbal [~gimbal@mo-76-0-0-116.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:54 Hrm. So #java is an invite only change 23:17:10 Erm channel 23:17:56 probably need to promise your first born to oracle 23:20:59 Heh, maybe it's supposed to be more "Enterprise Ready" if it's exclusive like that? Well I guess I answered my own question anyway - looks like the official reference for the Java Reflection API is in the Javadoc for it... 23:21:50 gimbal: isn't it ##java 23:23:35 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:23:41 Ahh my mistake ;) /j #TuringCompleteLanguages lol? 23:26:17 -!- ice [~ice@222.130.131.234] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:26:24 gimbal: i believe abcl now includes jfli, that may be what you are looking for wrt ffi 23:27:01 wishbone4: tx 23:28:35 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 23:28:37 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:29:38 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:33:18 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:34:03 <|3b|> has CFFI recently changed how it optimizes passing constant args from foreign-enum types to foreign functions? 23:34:12 Bike: my mistake again, missed the double hash - tx 23:34:34 gimbal: yeah, a lot of freenode channels are like that for whatever reason 23:34:35 *|3b|* is getting unexpected calls to cffi::%foreign-enum-value, didn't think it did that before 23:38:00 gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:03 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:38:03 gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has joined #lisp 23:40:13 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 23:40:25 -!- jesusito [~user@88.pool85-54-115.dynamic.orange.es] has left #lisp 23:42:20 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@cpe-024-074-197-085.ec.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: brb] 23:42:31 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 23:46:01 ace4016 [~ace4016@cpe-024-074-197-085.ec.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:50:54 mungojelly: it's possible to make such an environment in CL, with lispbuilder-sdl for example 23:51:08 dto is making something as well 23:51:59 sellout [~Adium@216.41.19.66] has joined #lisp 23:59:28 *gimbal* notices ABCL's class JAVA-OBJECT denoted in the FFI docs, decides to finally install ABCL - sounds like a good foot to set out on, lol