00:00:13 guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:16 -!- harish [~harish@116.87.234.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:02:17 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 00:04:03 eli: fwiw, if Javascript has gotten away with everything it's gotten away with, I tend to assume Kernel should at least try. Heck, some of the things that work for JS compilers directly apply to Kernel. :) I think once there's more than just John Shutt and a couple of random people trying to make this work, we'll see some interesting concrete things popping up. 00:04:21 ...not to be a topic necromancer, but I was out for a while and missed the juicy stuff. 00:05:34 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:06:13 -!- albertlee [~albertlee@59.108.40.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:06:24 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.155] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:06:31 -!- tango` [~user@109.58.231.229.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:06:35 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 00:07:23 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 00:07:25 -!- codora [~candyfox@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:07:46 wakeup [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-165-42.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:08:44 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 00:09:07 UFO686 [~zhangyh@114.96.156.245] has joined #lisp 00:09:49 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:11:55 setmeaway [setmeaway3@118.45.149.135] has joined #lisp 00:12:00 -!- kanru` [~kanru@61-228-144-54.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:15:11 setmeaway2 [setmeaway3@183.106.96.65] has joined #lisp 00:17:19 joooooo [setmeaway3@183.106.96.65] has joined #lisp 00:17:53 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@118.45.149.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:18:00 -!- joooooo [setmeaway3@183.106.96.65] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:18:00 -!- setmeaway2 [setmeaway3@183.106.96.65] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:18:16 setmeaway [~setmeaway@183.106.96.65] has joined #lisp 00:18:45 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:19:10 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 00:19:22 setmeaway2 [~setmeaway@118.45.149.135] has joined #lisp 00:23:00 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@183.106.96.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:23:07 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.5.148] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:25:08 -!- setmeaway2 [~setmeaway@118.45.149.135] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:25:13 joooooo [~setmeaway@118.45.149.135] has joined #lisp 00:25:18 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@125-239-196-121.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:25:25 -!- joooooo [~setmeaway@118.45.149.135] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:25:38 joooooo [~setmeaway@118.45.149.135] has joined #lisp 00:27:45 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:30:58 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.142.160.5] has joined #lisp 00:31:10 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:31:10 sykopomp: I actually wrote a 'kernel' interpreter/compiler in CL a long time ago ... It is not on this computer, but I may still have it somewhere 00:31:23 drewc: I did too :( 00:32:31 i like $vau (is that what it was called?) and i like the dollar sign coming first for such things as well! 00:32:57 *drewc* googles to make sure he isn't talking BS here 00:33:05 $vau indeed, yes. 00:33:32 I had more fun figuring out clever ways to use first-class environments, since they basically boiled down to javascript objects :) 00:34:07 " Fexprs as the basis of Lisp function application; or, $vau: the ultimate abstraction" woot! 00:34:28 *drewc* is not full of S 00:35:30 I remember liking fexprs as they were done ... it has been a while actually, so I may have to look back into it! 00:35:47 I remember having a few problems when actually coding with them. 00:36:04 I've been trying to get jshutt to speak at the BLM for years 00:36:05 It's a little tricky to figure out when you're going to evaluate things in such a way that you don't end up double-evaling. 00:36:19 that would be neat 00:36:37 is he in Boston? 00:37:09 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:37:21 he's in Worcester, last I heard. 00:37:33 *drewc* is likely going to travel to Boston again, so would not mind meeting up with him at all 00:37:34 so like an hour west of Boston. 00:37:35  00:38:01 why are we using $vau and not  ? It's unicode time 00:38:17 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 00:38:32 I mean, ever since asdf 2.21, every CL hacker can portably use unicode. 00:38:38 fair enough :) 00:38:59 except if you're stuck with genera, corman, or rmcl. 00:39:02 or gcl. 00:39:28 ... out of those, I think GCL is the worst to be stuck with 00:39:42 don't misunderestimate corman 00:39:44 drewc: https://github.com/clutter-lang/clutter/blob/devel/lib/clutter.cltr 00:39:57 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 00:40:05 I do still run the genera emulation thing sometimes ... just to say I do more then anything else 00:41:16 Oh right, the other thing is that Kernel is very resistant to template-style macro writing. 00:41:26 err, operator writing* 00:41:33 -!- ynniv [~ynniv@204.9.220.45] has quit [Quit: ynniv] 00:41:52 so while you can technically write macros with backquote, backquote is considered a bad idea and will probably cause more trouble than it's worth (by causing hygiene violation errors) 00:42:35 sykopomp: looking at it now ... what fun! 00:43:01 It really is! 00:46:31 Dennis [~Croms@dhcp-089-098-010-207.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 00:47:10 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:48:04 -!- Croms [~Croms@dhcp-089-098-010-207.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:52:58 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:54:52 I also forgot xcl as a non-unicode CL implementation. xcl is easy to forget. 00:55:16 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:38 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.5.148] has joined #lisp 00:57:41 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:57:57 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:01:02 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 01:01:28 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.142.160.5] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:01:58 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:02:09 ah, using CL where I'd previously have used shell scripts. Feels good. 01:02:16 rbarraud [~rbarraud@125-239-196-121.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:02:23 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 01:02:27 (writing a script to build SBCL at work) 01:02:33 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-qroccsqquccjlfcu] has joined #lisp 01:06:10 udzinari [~user@ip-94-112-85-12.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 01:06:53 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:06:57 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 01:08:24 pnq [~nick@ACA35602.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 01:09:13 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:11:43 ibiwan [8df80302@gateway/web/freenode/ip.141.248.3.2] has joined #lisp 01:11:50 -!- udzinari [~user@ip-94-112-85-12.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:13:44 DaDaDOSPrompt [~DaDaDOSPr@63-231-108-178.clsp.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:54 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 01:20:41 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 01:22:27 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:23:56 Fare: I have used scsh as a shell scripting language, but never CL to replace a script... I must try it ! 01:24:03 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Client Quit] 01:24:47 drewc: inferior-shell, together with pathname utilities from asdf, and a few utilities from xcvb-driver, does it for me. 01:25:48 ISF [~ivan@201.82.158.233] has joined #lisp 01:26:57 rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-169-16-50.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 01:29:38 What is a function that transforms ((a b) (c d)) into ((a c) (a d) (b c) (b d))? 01:30:49 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-76-172-30-205.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 01:31:24 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:34:46 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 01:36:02 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 01:36:49 some kind of cross-product of two lists? 01:37:17 you'll have to write it yourself. double recursion. 01:37:19 SrPx: That seems like a function you will have to discover. 01:37:31 mon_key: ? 01:37:33 alexandria might have it. Plenty of examples online. 01:37:47 SrPx: don't let us deny you the pleasure of writing it yourself :) 01:38:00 I have, but I'd like to find a concurrent version for this 01:38:32 try cl-concurrent-this 01:38:53 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:41:11 concurrent??? 01:47:04 -!- ebobby [~fms@70-36-138-190.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:48:11 SrPx: I think you mean parallel 01:48:24 yes 01:48:30 what is the difference? o.o 01:48:32 write one. Using lparallel it should be quite easy 01:48:40 (: 01:48:48 SrPx: "Concurrent" - happening simultaneously etc. 01:49:01 not sure how I could implement cartesian product parallel but 01:49:10 p_l: is not it a synonimous for parallel? 01:49:15 SrPx: it is not 01:49:28 in fact, it's very, very different 01:49:37 but how? 01:50:40 SrPx: Concurrent = A & B happening concurrently. Parallel = A A running parallel 01:51:22 SrPx: what is your use case - why does it matter if your function is in parallel? 01:51:23 it just happens that you also have "parallel multiprocessing" which means that multiple Processes (so P) can execute at the sime time in parallel 01:52:10 mon_key: I'm playing with stuff and I would like to see if this would run faster in parallel 01:52:16 However they are unrelated by themselves so they don't really come under "concurrent", because then their interactions can be simplified out 01:52:16 p_l: I guess I got it actually 01:52:40 SrPx: why would it matter if it did? 01:52:44 thanks (: 01:52:58 mon_key: it would answer my curiosity 01:53:23 So your use case is curiousity? 01:53:30 yes 01:53:38 SrPx: a good example might be this: OpenMP is about parallelism (executing loops in parallel, SIMD-style etc.), while Erlang/OTP is about concurrency (multiple different processes concurrently interacting) 01:53:58 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:54:33 Ralith_ [~ralith@63.64.64.178] has joined #lisp 01:54:51 SrPx: satisfying curiousity is certainly a good use case 01:55:52 huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has joined #lisp 01:56:06 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-16-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:57:28 KDr2 [~kdr2@123.116.112.221] has joined #lisp 01:58:18 mon_key: er? 01:58:26 mon_key: what? 01:58:45 mon_key: after you said that I guess 'use case' means something other than what I thought 01:58:55 mon_key: but I still am not sure what you are asking 01:59:23 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:59:27 mon_key: so the complete answer is I'm creating a AABB + sphere physics simulator and am checking for collisions with the function: 01:59:58 mon_key: (map check-collision (cartesian objects objects)) 02:00:52 Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has joined #lisp 02:00:57 that is, calling check-collision for each combination of objects, I guess 02:04:05 hitecnologys [~No_Name@94.137.11.143] has joined #lisp 02:04:37 Then you probably want to start with spatial decomposition. 02:05:05 I assume that you're famliar with oct-trees, which are not particularly good, but are the classic introduction. 02:05:22 yeah, oct-tree was my first thought of what to suggest 02:07:01 kanedank [~kanedank@pool-72-74-50-53.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:07:15 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA35602.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:11:01 springz [~springz@116.231.101.186] has joined #lisp 02:13:12 how do I use a common lisp project from github as a dependency, if I'm using quicklisp? 02:13:40 kanedank: clone it to local-projects 02:13:45 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 02:16:23 p_l: thanks, should of tried that 02:20:00 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-169-16-50.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:20:47 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.193.204.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:29:42 rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-169-16-50.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 02:31:29 or just install it somewhere in your source-registry 02:34:21 brandonz [~brandon@199-188-193-145.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:47 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 02:37:09 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 02:40:35 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:44:34 pnq [~nick@AC81CF8A.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 02:45:53 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 02:46:34 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Client Quit] 02:46:40 -!- Ralith_ [~ralith@63.64.64.178] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:46:42 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 02:49:18 -!- ibiwan [8df80302@gateway/web/freenode/ip.141.248.3.2] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:51:18 -!- pnq is now known as Guest49962 02:52:46 when I create a project with quickproject, where should I put my :import-from stuff? 02:53:36 I tried putting it in my package.lisp's defpackage, but apparently that's wrong 02:57:21 why do you think that is wrong? have you read the docs for DEFPACKAGE ? 02:58:09 drewc: no, I have not 02:59:12 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:59:35 well, perhaps you should! http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/hyperspec/HyperSpec/Body/mac_defpackage.html 02:59:49 oh, I did have it right, just had an extra paren 02:59:54 drewc: thanks for the link! 03:00:09 drewc: hi! 03:01:08 steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has joined #lisp 03:01:27 Fare: I am looking into inferior-shell so I can use CL for such things 03:01:55 :) 03:02:01 kanedank: I can recommend paredit so you do not have an extra paren : 03:02:10 http://emacswiki.org/emacs/ParEdit 03:02:23 I think I should export all the utilities I use from asdf and xcvb-driver in some package, maybe inferior-shell. 03:03:44 drewc: ah, thank you for the suggestion, that looks mighty helpful 03:04:03 the top link on google leads to cliki and the link on cliki does not work! 03:04:33 this works though: http://common-lisp.net/gitweb?p=projects/qitab/inferior-shell.git 03:05:51 *drewc* is starting a 'new' hosting company, and if CL can be used for many shell scripts, it will be! 03:05:58 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483A090.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:33 kanedank: I could not live without it these days ... it is nice to not have to worry about balancing parens 03:06:58 I'll fix cliki. Thanks! 03:07:17 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A2BB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:07:39 -!- Guest49962 is now known as qnp 03:07:46 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 03:08:07 no worries. Oh, cliki will soon be hosted in cliki2 and not the old school and tough to hack cliki. 03:08:38 nice 03:08:41 -!- BeWhy [~chatzilla@c-76-124-138-194.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:08:46 cliki page fixed 03:08:56 It is now running http://wiki.alu.org/ as a debug/test/whatever thing and seems to be working out 03:09:09 rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has joined #lisp 03:10:27 And, I have a new dedicated box that it will run on, as will cl-net, as soon as I know the box is OK and working etc... big times are ahead. 03:11:09 nice 03:18:02 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-141-10.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:18:50 DataLinkDroid [~DataLink@1.153.97.160] has joined #lisp 03:18:55 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-141-10.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:20:59 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-141-10.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:23:54 DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-121-180.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 03:24:12 -!- prsteele [~user@dhcp-128-253-211-249.res-wired.cornell.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:25:08 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:25:50 -!- qnp is now known as pnq 03:27:24 are the symbols from import-from in the package definition usable throughout all files that are in-package? 03:28:08 (:import-from #:a #:b #:c) 03:28:26 I can now run (b) and (c) anywhere I want in an inheritting file, correct? 03:30:16 also, should I be asking this stuff here? I saw the link to #clnoobs, but that looks pretty empty 03:30:43 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:31:01 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:56 -!- SrPx [b185811b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.177.133.129.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:34:28 kanedank: "The symbols named by the argument symbol-names are found in the package named by package-name and they are imported into the package being defined" ... maybe instead of asking the questions, you should simply try it out! packages are a little bit confusing, but only at first. 03:34:39 saage [~saage@200.195.179.34] has joined #lisp 03:34:40 -!- saage [~saage@200.195.179.34] has quit [Changing host] 03:34:40 saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has joined #lisp 03:36:04 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 03:36:11 The Complete Idiot's Guide to Common Lisp Packages <--- http://www.flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf 03:38:27 wait, does (ql:quickload "bar") recompile the package? 03:38:33 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has quit [Quit: steffi_s] 03:39:10 I just tried fiddling with it, and now I'm pretty sure I'm not even recompiling it... 03:40:46 Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has joined #lisp 03:45:07 -!- ZC|Mobile [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:45:11 -!- joooooo [~setmeaway@118.45.149.135] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:45:26 setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.135] has joined #lisp 03:46:10 kanedank it does. what made you think it doesn't 03:47:55 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:48:13 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 03:48:22 it should, unless the file that has the package in it has not been saved of course... because ql:quickload is (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op ...) IIRC 03:48:57 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.169] has joined #lisp 03:48:58 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.169] has quit [Changing host] 03:48:58 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 03:49:04 kennyd: I'm getting an error message for a function that no longer has that name 03:49:50 and I'm saving my files, just double checked 03:49:53 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:50:19 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 03:50:23 -!- hitecnologys [~No_Name@94.137.11.143] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:50:34 I'm using 1.0.57-1.fc17 and downloaded quicklisp today 03:50:42 have you restarted your lisp, or deleted the package, or removed the function definition, or anything of the sort? 03:50:58 what error are you getting? 03:51:08 well I was playing around with the package imports 03:52:21 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:52:48 https://gist.github.com/2963726 03:53:03 error is at the bottom of the gist 03:55:48 where does that error come from exactly? 03:56:18 -!- brandonz [~brandon@199-188-193-145.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:56:31 backtrace: https://gist.github.com/2963736 03:56:35 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.158.233] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 03:56:40 I think 'v' is supposed to take me to the offending line, right? 03:57:25 doesn't work for the undefined function one, but at 1 it takes me to the start function 03:57:48 -!- springz [~springz@116.231.101.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:57:59 well, you are not showing the code that you are using for one thing ... 03:58:34 clintm [~user@001e52f0de2b.click-network.com] has joined #lisp 03:58:58 xsdfasfdhttp-listen is what you have shown, so that error is not at all from that code. 03:59:49 are you using emacs + slime? 04:00:24 yeah, that's what's weird 04:00:33 yep emacs + slime 04:00:54 emacs 24, installed slime via quicklisp, which I also installed today. everything is a fresh setup today, my old hd bit the dust. 04:01:19 I'm just going to restart emacs, I'm sure I did something extra stupid 04:01:24 go into each file, C-c C-k to compile them. 04:01:34 no, there is no need to restart emacs 04:02:50 ah, it works now 04:02:51 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:23 Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has joined #lisp 04:03:56 -!- Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has left #lisp 04:04:07 I don't know why quickproject wasn't recompiling earlier, but now it is working fine 04:04:21 you should try to see what problems you have caused rather then restart ... I have a emacs/slime/sbcl here that I have been running for almost 3 months. :) 04:04:53 fmeyer1 [~fmeyer@186.220.5.148] has joined #lisp 04:05:04 -!- fmeyer1 [~fmeyer@186.220.5.148] has left #lisp 04:05:10 I also have one that I restarted like sunday, and the lisp was restarted about 1/2 hour ago ... but that is for different reasons! 04:05:22 wow, that's pretty stable. I'm used to the windows world, where my graphics driver fails once every week 04:06:10 also, what is the correct way for wanting to interact with running lisp processes? 04:06:51 like I want to run my stupid server thing, and interact with it. should I create alternative slime sessions? 04:07:06 my laptop has been running for almost 3 months. I even travelled on a plane about 5 hours with it asleep! 04:07:57 slime is good. M-x slime-connect to a running swank server. 04:08:27 but, it all depends on how you want to interact, what the process is, etc. 04:10:39 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@112.198.194.127] has joined #lisp 04:12:40 drewc: um, I'm not sure I know the terminology right, but what does that mean? I have one swank session running from sbcl (I think), but I'm pretty sure I can't connect more than 1 slime session, right? 04:13:08 asvil [~asvil@178.120.34.174] has joined #lisp 04:14:54 sure you can. 04:15:26 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 04:15:31 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81CF8A.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:16:04 M-x slime-connect, 127.0.0.1, 4405, failed max client reached. am I doing something wrong? 04:16:09 ISF [~ivan@201.82.158.233] has joined #lisp 04:16:48 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:19:37 cfdm [~user@114.205.86.94] has joined #lisp 04:19:38 hmm, I guess I should probably just read the slime manual for a while 04:19:44 thanks everyone! 04:19:49 -!- kanedank [~kanedank@pool-72-74-50-53.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:21:08 heh ... i am here now, was about to say 'create new swank server and connect to that' ... but now kanedank is 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[~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 05:23:54 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:24:34 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-165-42.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:25:48 wakeup [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-165-42.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:28:00 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:28:18 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 05:28:26 tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 05:32:07 PKHG [~PKHG_afk@ip9135cb37.speed.planet.nl] has joined #lisp 05:32:49 tashbear [~hucktash@unaffiliated/el-tash/x-7763973] has joined #lisp 05:33:19 hallo, from NL, if I load a fild (load "auxfns") I get these lines (emacs slime, sbcl) 05:33:24 0: [CONTINUE] Ignore the package lock. 05:33:25 1: [IGNORE-ALL] Ignore all package locks in the context of this operation. 05:33:27 2: [UNLOCK-PACKAGE] Unlock the package. 05:33:29 3: [RETRY] Retry EVAL of current toplevel form. 05:33:46 How do I do to not be forced to type a 2 ???? 05:33:53 PKHG, use http://paste.lisp.org/new 05:34:02 fantazo [~fantazo@91.119.121.102] has joined #lisp 05:34:11 will look now ;-) 05:34:42 PKHG: do not violate package locks - what is this auxfns? 05:35:03 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:36:07 moment ... it is from a book (looking for link ..) 05:36:24 http://norvig.com/paip/auxfns.lisp 05:36:24 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:36:33 http://norvig.com/paip/ 05:36:45 ok Quadrescnece you was quicker ;-) 05:36:51 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:36:58 PKHG: maybe http://paste.lisp.org/display/130167 is for you 05:37:03 PKHG: if it is, thank pjb 05:37:22 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.254.247] has joined #lisp 05:37:29 superjudge [~textual@37-46-176-67.customers.ownit.se] has joined #lisp 05:38:21 hmm copying that content 30167 ... can I see how long it will be available? 05:38:30 mrSpec [~Spec@89-68-55-121.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 05:38:30 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-68-55-121.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 05:38:30 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:38:35 -!- ozialien [~ernest@ip68-0-179-160.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:39:28 copying is safer, in particular as you don't know how long the referenced content will be available 05:39:53 Say - is there a way I can have a destructor/finalizer called for a CLOS object? 05:39:54 done ;-) 05:40:07 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 05:40:27 pnathan, http://common-lisp.net/project/trivial-garbage/ 05:40:32 something like that? 05:40:39 pnathan: you can call some function in a finalizer, but that will be after the object has been destroyed. there are no "destructors" in clos 05:40:57 pnathan, see the "finalizers" section 05:41:08 pnathan: if you need explicit destruction, you need to implement your own protocol for that. 05:41:19 *pnathan* rummages 05:41:32 When you say protocol, do you mean in the sense of the MOP? 05:41:43 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.193.40] has joined #lisp 05:42:16 pnathan: no, just in the sense of defining your own generic function to destroy an object explicitly and call that when appropriate 05:42:59 Hmmm. Okay. 05:43:04 Thanks! 05:44:51 pnathan: in bknr-datastore, we have a destroy-object generic function that is called when a persistent object is deleted. it is mostly used to remove objects from indices, but can also be used by applications. 05:46:38 Gotcha. 05:48:18 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 05:48:18 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 05:48:18 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 05:48:50 gko [~user@220.228.255.202] has joined #lisp 05:49:21 ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #lisp 05:49:53 I figured a way around it for what I'm doing. Loosely, I need to funcall a member of the object, then do some cleanup afterwards. So I am funcalling the member within a lambda; then I will funcall a cleanup member. 05:51:21 -!- nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p5089C76B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:51:36 pnathan, you might be interested in a very small library i wrote 05:52:15 pnathan, https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/cl-raii/src 05:52:42 *pnathan* looks over 05:53:02 pnathan, define a method called FINALIZE for your classes, then use (with () ) 05:53:18 nifty 05:53:23 and the WITH macro will call finalizers on the objs at the end. It's very simple but useful 05:55:59 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:56:11 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 05:58:03 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-008-216.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:36 Quadrescence: Yeah, looks like it. I will see if I can fit it into the system I am putting together. Right now the textual coupling is pretty spread out. IDK if a with would work. 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timeout: 246 seconds] 08:38:59 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:39:26 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 08:40:00 hitecnologys [~No_Name@46.233.223.103] has joined #lisp 08:43:39 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@192.81.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 08:45:54 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.250.229] has joined #lisp 08:46:27 mvilleneuve_ [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:46:27 when is it a good idea to use defparameter rather than defvar? 08:47:09 -!- hitecnologys [~No_Name@46.233.223.103] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:48:05 hitecnologys [~No_Name@46.233.223.103] has joined #lisp 08:48:07 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:48:37 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:48:54 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 08:49:00 When you want a reload to reset them. 08:49:28 dim: "defvar is for variables changed by the program, defparameter for variables changed by a human 08:51:59 ok 08:52:30 so I need to be sure to first load the code before I change the parameters 08:52:49 would the human better use defparameter again or setq? 08:52:58 dim: setf/setq 08:53:24 thx 08:53:25 prince_jammys [~mischa@pool-71-249-63-13.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:25 dim: the downside of defparameter is that they're re-set if you reload the file. that makes some people not use them at all, because of the inconvenience at development time. 08:53:37 exactly 08:53:58 I though I'd rather ask for "stylistic" guidance before just doing that 08:54:00 dim: you can always put your parameters into a separate file. 08:54:14 to be honnest I already just switched to defvar, *then* asked :) 08:54:44 I load the project with quicklisp (ql:quickload), so it loads all the files given in the asd definition 08:55:05 I don't think adding an extra file would change anything unless I reload manually file by file now 08:55:40 dim: the concern is development inconvenience, where you usually reload your files one-by-one, from within slime. 08:56:13 ah, there's the trick, I develop on a local emacs and test on a remote server, so there's a rsync + quickload involved here 08:56:14 dim: but as i said, it is a matter of preference. i like distinguishing parameters and variables more than the convenience, but that is just me. 08:56:17 inconvenient 08:56:52 oh I liked that defparameter as a self-documenting practice 08:57:06 I wanted to be sure not to miss it too much by going to defvar for convenience 08:59:18 dim: you could also setup tramp and remote swank. 08:59:34 dim: you could also place your parameters in a separate file that is not normally reloaded 09:00:09 dim: not that that would be too straightforward to do, just thought i'd mention it. 09:00:46 pkhuong: remote swank? I need to look at that. Maybe I don't need tramp if I can load local code in a remote lisp image thanks to that. 09:01:23 H4ns: sure, I appreciate you mentionning it, thanks. I'm, going to keep defparameter and be sure to setq after the loading happens 09:02:09 -!- hitecnologys [~No_Name@46.233.223.103] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:05:35 smanek [~smanek@204.28.125.157] has joined #lisp 09:06:22 dim: something like this http://paste.lisp.org/display/130191 09:07:02 I've been using +constant+ earbuffs for my parameters... 09:07:28 that's because of the wisdom "constants aren't and variable won't" 09:07:37 got me thinking that +parameter+ was better 09:07:59 dim: + has traditionally been used for constants, defined with defconstant 09:08:16 you still can change'em right? 09:08:29 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-73-86.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 09:08:34 no. 09:08:45 dim: "can" in the sense of "it is possible", but certainly not in the sense of "you should do it" 09:09:07 I see 09:09:35 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@192.81.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:10:42 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.254.247] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 09:13:04 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:13:19 ,chls random 09:13:25 ,random 09:13:35 chls random 09:13:37 dman 09:13:40 damn 09:14:03 minion isn't around. http://l1sp.org/cl/random 09:15:24 also, "clhs" :) 09:16:13 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d869a4e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:16:59 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-qroccsqquccjlfcu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:17:06 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:09 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:17:23 dim: constants aren't, variables won't.e 09:17:36 dim: defvar is to define program parameters. defparameter is to define program variables. 09:17:40 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 09:18:25 dim: a program parameter is a variable that may be assigned before the program is loaded. When you load the program you don't want its predefined value to be changed, so you use defvar. 09:18:53 dim: a program variable is owned by the program, and when you reload the program you want to reset its value, so you use defparameter. 09:19:11 Now, of course, the reason why the names are switched, is history. 09:19:58 constants change all the time. Ok, not PI; but (defconstant bufsize 1024) will have to change, when you run the program with more memory, or with a different network speed, etc. 09:20:24 variables don't change (do not use setf). (let ((a 42)) (+ a 1)) ; no setf, no variable change. 09:20:54 Paradoxes are fun. 09:20:57 thanks 09:25:10 pjb: indeed 09:25:41 pjb: you're advocating that I use defvar in my case where I want to user to control the setting where I only provide for a default value, though, IIUC. is that right? 09:27:34 That was a nice explanation pjb, cheers. 09:28:41 -!- sanjoyd [sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:30:28 dlowe: hi 09:31:18 dlowe: I need help on opengl with lisp: I'm trying to port krotate screensaver code in cl, but glu: is missing some function like cylinder... 09:31:31 pjb: The names are switched? 09:32:03 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 09:32:35 naryl: most people don't think that they are. pjb has his own interpretation. 09:33:02 pjb is actually Trelane 09:36:59 pjb: you perfected a system with convert matter to energy and back to matter again. Didn't you? 09:37:21 dim: yes, if you want the user to provide a value, use defvar to set the default. 09:40:18 Now, there's one case where you want to use defvar for a program variable, it's when it must hold persistent state (across reloads). 09:40:23 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:40:40 please help: shall I use glfw packages or cl-opengl? 09:40:50 But in general, I use defparameter. 09:41:20 Posterdati: you could perhaps ask on #lispgames, they're probably more experienced in those domains there. 09:41:33 Posterdati: http://cliki.net/IRC 09:41:54 Posterdati: "The reason that libraries like GLFW are needed is that OpenGL by itself does not provide any mechanisms for creating the necessary context, managing windows, user input, timing etc." 09:42:15 trick is, let's call my package foo and the parameter/variable x, if a user wants to (setq foo:x 'bar) he needs to have loaded my system where I define the package and export the variable, right? 09:42:47 He needs to have loaded your package definition first, that's all. 09:43:19 But yes, with asdf/quicklisp, you get everything at once. 09:43:50 Two solutions: (defpackage :foo) (defparameter foo:*x* 42) (ql:quickload :foo-system) 09:43:50 dim: In order to type in foo:x, the foo package must exist. 09:44:11 this doesn't work because defpackage is not specified when the package already exists, so you don't know what will happen when you quickload it. 09:44:38 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:44:44 the second solution is to keep the program parameters in cl-user. (defparameter cl-user:*x-for-foo*) (ql:quickload :foo-sytem). 09:44:52 well the way I see it now is (ql:quickload "foo") then (setq ...), and then defparameter makes perfect sense 09:45:19 dim: indeed. notably if you do: (ql:quickload "foo") (setq foo:*x* 42) (ql:quickload "foo") (ql:quickload "foo") 09:45:20 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-xsjrzxipiycakyfr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:45:30 dim: It will still be reset to the default value on e.g. system update. 09:45:47 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:45:49 yes 09:46:18 that only encourages for another usage pattern 09:46:39 (let ((foo:*x* 42)) (foo:call)) 09:46:53 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 09:47:06 Well, this works always, it's undelated to defvar/defparameter. 09:47:20 yes, that's what I like about it :) 09:47:43 What's funny with CL is how it allows both in-image development, and in-file development. 09:47:52 I think defparameter is for variables that will never change from their default values except when default itself changes. Otherwise use defvar. 09:47:55 snearch [~snearch@f053000243.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:48:20 Of course, since we're unix users, we use in-file development, but Interlisp or Lisp Machine users may prefer in-image development. 09:48:31 what's less funny is that if your user doesn't know wether you've been using defparamter or defvar he can't setup correctly his environment 09:48:34 pkhuong: ok, thanks 09:48:48 dim: that's where documentation enters the scene. 09:48:58 dim: common lisp does not specify how applications are deployed and parametrized. that is up to you to define. 09:49:02 that's where my lazyness kicks-ion 09:49:26 H4ns: yeah, quicklisp helps here, fortunately 09:49:38 dim: it does not, but anyway. 09:49:58 you mean the hard work is done by asdf? 09:50:26 dim: yes, and asdf is a build system. it does not define how an application is deployed and parametrized either. 09:50:34 dim: there is no standard for that. 09:51:00 deployed == add to asdf path then quickload it 09:51:34 antonv [2e35c32a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.42] has joined #lisp 09:51:42 dim: that is how you do it. i do it quite differently. 09:52:25 I'm not surprised, you have way more experience, and I'm discovering CL where quicklisp already exists :) 09:53:23 dim: that does not mean anything. quicklisp still is not a deployment mechanism. in many of my deployments, i want short startup times, so just reloading the software using the build system is not an option. 09:53:36 dim: and application parameterization is completely untouched by that. 09:54:08 parameterization, ok. not using quicklisp to deploy... mmm, ok 09:54:26 well I'm still to see about producing executable images, etc 09:55:09 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:56:45 -!- Ralith [~ralith@63.64.64.178] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:58:10 That said, real application parameters are usually saved in configuration files that are loaded at run-time, not at load time. 09:59:52 -!- prince_jammys [~mischa@pool-71-249-63-13.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:00:15 yeah I'm still doing interactive use only here 10:01:41 prince_jammys [~mischa@pool-71-249-103-57.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:54 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@192.81.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 10:04:58 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 10:05:39 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:06:07 mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 10:06:13 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:08:40 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-fvgxgtdvmshuaciw] has joined #lisp 10:09:23 -!- springz [~springz@116.231.101.186] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 10:15:12 -!- theos is now known as Guest67592 10:15:45 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 10:16:42 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.254.247] has joined #lisp 10:17:31 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has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:38:36 i often encounter the pattern in which i want to call (foo (bar (baz object))) (or something similar) but where all of foo, bar and baz may return nil. if they return nil i don't want to call the next function. for instance, if (baz object) is nil, i don't want to call (bar nil), i just want to return nil. are there well-thought-out macro's to make this simpler. for what it's worth, in a lot of cases some values may be n 10:38:58 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.254.247] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 10:39:18 i know i can handle it with a macro, but i was still wondering if there'd be a more sane approach 10:39:23 -!- teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:39:50 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:40:35 kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 10:41:14 teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has joined #lisp 10:42:27 -!- Vutral [~ss@2a01:198:35a::1] has quit [Quit: Life is too short] 10:46:56 @madnificent http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-monad-macros/monad-macros.htm#_Toc251846357 10:47:35 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 10:47:54 Hello [~Hello@182.177.153.49] has joined #lisp 10:48:50 (Might be a bit heavy-weight for ad-hoc uses, though.) 10:50:11 benkard: that requires all statements to be non 10:50:15 -nil, no? 10:50:29 -!- Hello [~Hello@182.177.153.49] has quit [Client Quit] 10:50:55 mrSpec [~Spec@89-68-55-121.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 10:50:55 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-68-55-121.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 10:50:55 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 10:51:23 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:52:38 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl21-67-159.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 10:54:18 @madnificent It returns (maybe-nil) as soon as one of the expressions returns (maybe-nil). (maybe-nil) is just nil. But I guess you would have to wrap the non-nil values in make-maybe, which is kind of a hassle. 10:54:43 @madnificent So it's not quite what you want. 10:56:34 benkard: but interesting nonetheless! 10:58:41 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 11:01:00 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@192.81.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 11:01:27 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.1.1] 11:01:40 -!- jnbek|wc [~jnbek@pdpc/supporter/active/jnbek] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:02:53 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 11:03:23 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:04:41 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 11:04:58 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d869a4e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:06:41 amaron [~amaron@cable-178-148-241-129.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 11:10:22 -!- harish [~harish@cm108.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:10:44 neoesque [~neoesque@122-116-18-21.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:12:39 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d869a4e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:12:43 hitecnologys [~No_Name@46.233.223.103] has joined #lisp 11:14:52 TimKack [~user@c-2ec2a09c-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 11:16:31 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.82.67.159] has joined #lisp 11:16:37 -!- smanek [~smanek@204.28.125.157] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:16:51 -!- hitecnologys [~No_Name@46.233.223.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:17:14 hitecnologys [~No_Name@46.233.223.103] has joined #lisp 11:17:40 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 11:19:00 -!- Harag [~phil@dsl-242-244-241.telkomadsl.co.za] has left #lisp 11:21:16 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.237.113.114] has joined #lisp 11:21:23 fwiw, i built a quick and hackish macro which defines a block and a macrolet for my needs 11:26:57 -!- Dennis [~Croms@dhcp-089-098-010-207.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 11:30:35 harish [~harish@119.234.185.168] has joined #lisp 11:31:49 matessim [~matessim@2a00:7b80:3008:3::98a7:e948] has joined #lisp 11:33:08 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@125-239-196-121.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:33:44 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:35:00 dabd [~dabd@static-bl4-245-43.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 11:35:09 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:35:45 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:39:10 KDr2 [~kdr2@114.243.243.96] has joined #lisp 11:43:15 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-fvgxgtdvmshuaciw] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:48:05 -!- antonv [2e35c32a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.42] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:49:16 zanoni [quassel@nat/indt/x-xnriluotamewdbso] has joined #lisp 11:49:18 pasted for future reference http://paste.lisp.org/+2SGG 11:50:00 madnificent: (defun foo (x) (when x )) (defun bar (x) (when x )) etc. 11:50:44 pjb: doesn't fit nicely in my current model. but i've considered it. (not all functions are under your own control) 11:51:35 Then indeed, you have to wrap their calls. Once upon a time in C++ I had a checkObject function that would do that. 11:51:44 With a macro it's easier to use. 11:51:45 -!- matessim [~matessim@2a00:7b80:3008:3::98a7:e948] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:52:23 pjb: yeah, i wanted it short. i initially wrote a different macro for it (a few days ago), but it didn't look sweet. i wanted this to be somewhat annotation-like. i think this macro does that trick. 11:52:43 I would have named it bottom or with-bottom 11:54:06 matessim [~matessim@2a00:7b80:3008:3::98a7:e948] has joined #lisp 11:54:42 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 11:54:59 pjb: yes-and-no. it makes sense to do that, maybe. however that would be better for a parameterized version of this same idea. ie: you may want to add a check function to the list which now contains ^. you may use this same concept to check if some number is 0 (in order to avoid devision by 0). or perhaps you want to return a different value than nil. the name bottom or with-bottom is better for something that's flexib 11:56:11 Well no. NIL is bottom () in Lisp. If you want to parameterize, another name should be choosen. 11:56:24 That's also why scheme is not a lisp :-) 11:56:43 ah bottom in that sense. i thought you wanted to hint at the base case 11:57:14 pjb: perhaps escape, or esc for the parameterized version? 11:57:39 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:57:41 It's a macro that would define and enact an absorbing element. 11:57:59 (with-absorbing-value 42 ()) 11:58:18 pjb: no, that's not what i was thinking. 11:58:29 -!- Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:58:40 (with-absorbing-value 42 (+ (* 2 42) 3)) --> 42 ? 11:58:41 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:59:55 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-012-123.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:01:49 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-163-106.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:02:11 pjb: check the annotian 12:02:14 annotation 12:02:59 at least, that was what i was trying to explain. with-absorbing-value may still make sense in some other world :) 12:04:15 pnq [~nick@AC81CAEC.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 12:04:26 pjb: in the context of maths, @ would have been a better escaping symbol than ^ 12:04:39 (curry #'= 0) is called zerop in CL> 12:04:41 . 12:05:23 Otherwise, if you want to publish it in a library, find a better name. ^ or @ are overloaded already. 12:05:25 pjb: woops 12:06:03 pjb: it's just a symbol i use internally. the macrolet shouldn't break anything that's been defined before... so it's up to the user 12:06:15 ok 12:06:24 Just use the unicode snowman. 12:06:27 pjb: that's what (^) does :) 12:06:36 wakeup_ [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-165-118.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:06:38 I see, yes, I overlooked that. 12:06:44 Zhivago: you know, an odd unicode symbol makes sense 12:07:14 pjb: but thanks for saying! if i wouldn't have done that it'd have been a very good hint. 12:07:31 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@192.81.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 12:07:32 Zhivago: i mean, it's obvious that it doesn't belong there, so you can easily skip over it 12:09:29 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:44 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-165-42.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:11:19 emacs-dwim [~user@rrcs-24-103-166-106.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:12:43 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:13:06 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:18:22 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.70] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:19:03 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.90.98] has joined #lisp 12:22:52 -!- TimKack [~user@c-2ec2a09c-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:23:55 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 12:23:56 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:25:28 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-128-247.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:25:32 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 12:27:02 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.82.67.159] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 12:29:20 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-68-152.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 12:30:52 -!- matessim [~matessim@2a00:7b80:3008:3::98a7:e948] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:34:52 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d869a4e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:36:23 matessim [~matessim@2a00:7b80:3008:3::98a7:e948] has joined #lisp 12:37:09 madnificent: ah without-doublequotes is pretty neat, where you got this? 12:37:11 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 12:37:23 *maxm* steals it for his utils lib 12:37:32 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:37:33 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:38:10 in fact its so neat, probably should submit it into alexandria 12:38:44 vim_heretic [~user@94-195-174-251.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:39:29 maxm: i just built it, but it only works for symbols! 12:39:40 maxm: it seemed like the simplest thing to do 12:40:35 *madnificent* thinks we should have an alternative for backticks of arbitrary depth 12:40:52 as in: something like , that says "pick the symbol from n levels up" 12:41:38 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d869a4e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:46 MMalik [~MMalik@41.201.194.174] has joined #lisp 12:41:55 -!- MMalik [~MMalik@41.201.194.174] has left #lisp 12:43:25 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@192.81.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 12:43:44 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:44:49 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:49:25 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@192.81.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 12:50:46 -!- matessim [~matessim@2a00:7b80:3008:3::98a7:e948] has quit [Quit: I don't hate people, i hate stupid people.] 12:51:34 matessim [~matessim@2a00:7b80:3008:3::98a7:e948] has joined #lisp 12:51:36 -!- matessim [~matessim@2a00:7b80:3008:3::98a7:e948] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:51:55 matessim [~matessim@2a00:7b80:3008:3::98a7:e948] has joined #lisp 12:58:05 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 12:58:06 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 12:58:24 ksergio [~sgarcia@mail.ageophysics.com] has joined #lisp 13:01:44 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.237.113.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:01:48 compulsive behavior made me implement http://paste.lisp.org/display/130192#2 hope my brain will now agree we should start doing something useful 13:01:50 -!- matessim [~matessim@2a00:7b80:3008:3::98a7:e948] has left #lisp 13:05:10 intinig [~user@93-50-99-219.ip152.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:06:39 vim_here` [~user@94-195-174-251.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:06:46 -!- vim_here` [~user@94-195-174-251.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 13:07:50 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.237.113.114] has joined #lisp 13:09:25 idurand [~idurand@faucon.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 13:12:38 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:12:59 [SLB] [~slabua@host97-170-dynamic.2-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:13:00 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host97-170-dynamic.2-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 13:13:00 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 13:13:27 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:15:15 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-239.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:16:16 -!- chu [~chu@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:16:34 treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp 13:20:19 -!- vim_heretic [~user@94-195-174-251.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:20:41 madnificent: use more funny symbols! It'll make your code more readable. Think Perl. 13:21:04 sykopomp: ç << that's a good one! 13:21:34 vim_heretic [~user@94-195-174-251.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:21:53 -!- vim_heretic [~user@94-195-174-251.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 13:21:57 sykopomp: or  people think it's a quote bit it's an odd thing 13:22:17 madnificent:  and  ;) 13:23:19 vim_heretic [~user@94-195-174-251.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:23:34 -!- vim_heretic [~user@94-195-174-251.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has left #lisp 13:23:44 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:23:54 so we have to distinguish '¨'´` and somehow figure out what is what. bonus points if you nest mulitple esc forms with different symbols in that list for their expansion 13:25:02 TimKack [~user@c-2ec2a09c-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 13:25:34 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-012-123.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:25:55 where can I find with-doublequotes? google didn't help. 13:26:11 madnificent:  is an opening quote btw. 13:26:20 stlifey [~stlifey@121.11.119.163] has joined #lisp 13:26:36 flip214: i just built it. you'll have to wait until google indexes that paste 13:26:50 Hm... I should write a reader-macro for nestable strings with  :] 13:27:12 madnificent: the paste you gave at 15:01 doesn't include it, just uses it 13:27:35 Hi, I made a paste for #lisp. Is it going to appear automatically or should I post the link here? Irène (not really familiar with pastes) 13:27:45 flip214: http://paste.lisp.org/display/130192 it's the first macro in there 13:27:53 idurand: paste the link 13:27:53 idurand: Post the link, the pastebot is sleeping. 13:28:00 thanks a lot 13:28:04 naryl: actually, that'd be a cool example :) 13:28:07 http://paste.lisp.org/+2SGI 13:28:14 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-247-218.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 13:29:55 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:21 I agree, with-doublequotes belongs into alexandria. 13:30:40 need better name 13:31:03 with-unevaluated-symbols? 13:31:25 symbols-be-yourselves? 13:31:50 with-self-evaluating-symbols 13:32:21 i used the name with-doublequotes because it hints at the double backtick for which it was supposed to be used (and it is/was a local macro (for something less trivial than that)) 13:32:47 with-double-commas 13:33:27 (with-self-binds (a b c) code (be here)) looks ok 13:33:30 can this be reused for ,,, or not? the backtick of more then one level gives be a headache 13:33:56 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-247-218.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 13:34:58 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-210-188.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:35:03 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA12CA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:35:16 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA12CA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:35:30 UFO686 [~zhangyh@114.96.156.245] has joined #lisp 13:36:02 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-210-188.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:36:21 maxm: you can but it in it's correct , form just before the backquoted form. that's the only way you'll manage to understand the underlying code (and not write really idiotic bugs) 13:36:32 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 13:36:35 -!- treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:37:06 idurand: fwiw: i don't know what the problem is with your paste. someone with more knowledge of CFFI stuff will probably be here soon. keep lurking 13:37:39 idurand: just a moment 13:37:53 like fe[nl]ix :) 13:38:54 There is something about this problem at https://github.com/blindglobe/cl-blapack/issues/2 but it doesn't say whether the problem was eventually solved. 13:40:23 idurand: I sent the author a patch to solve an incompatibility of fnv with CFFI, but I didn't know about cl-blapack 13:40:28 which needs to be updated as well 13:42:28 -!- TimKack [~user@c-2ec2a09c-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:42:52 would there be an easy patch that I could apply myself in order to have something working riht now? 13:42:54 Is cl-blapack also defining a cffi type in the keyword package? 13:43:04 several 13:44:37 -!- prince_jammys [~mischa@pool-71-249-103-57.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:44:53 I am not sure what you mean (defpackage :org.middleangle.blapack-cffi-types (:nicknames :blapack-cffi-types) (:use :common-lisp :cffi :fnv) 13:45:40 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-210-188.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Client Quit] 13:46:27 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@38.117.156.114] has joined #lisp 13:48:12 -!- lnostdal__ [~lnostdal@112.198.205.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:50:00 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has joined #lisp 13:51:56 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-210-188.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:52:08 -!- dabd [~dabd@static-bl4-245-43.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 13:53:45 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 13:55:10 is there an alternative to lisp-matrix to handle matrices and linear algebra? 13:56:36 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:57:54 idurand: there's gsll 13:58:47 fe[nl]ix: thanks, i'll try that 13:59:43 just a minute 14:00:56 idurand: https://github.com/sionescu/cl-blapack.git 14:01:15 git clone that repository into quicklisp/local-projects/ 14:02:05 -!- emacs-dwim [~user@rrcs-24-103-166-106.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:02:08 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.34.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:02:48 -!- wakeup_ [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-165-118.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:04:12 nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has joined #lisp 14:04:43 wakeup [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-165-118.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:06:04 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 14:06:50 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Client Quit] 14:08:26 or matlisp. 14:09:07 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:10:15 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:15:19 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-024-176.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:23 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA12CA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:20:38 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.254.247] has joined #lisp 14:21:03 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA12CA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 14:22:26 -!- superjudge [~textual@37-46-176-67.customers.ownit.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:24:10 hargettp [~hargettp@65.219.237.244] has joined #lisp 14:24:10 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:24:16 melontrolly [~fold@71-11-241-160.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 14:24:41 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:25:37 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81CAEC.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:25:43 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-165-118.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:25:54 -!- mathrick__ is now known as mathrick 14:27:01 wakeup [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-165-118.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:27:49 cheezus [~Adium@69-196-172-79.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 14:27:50 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has joined #lisp 14:27:54 slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-163-106.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:12 -!- cheezus [~Adium@69-196-172-79.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:29:06 I could compile cl-blapack and all dependencies of lisp-matrix. Now I have an error compiling the git version of lisp-matrix (file: matrix-implementations.lisp , error: Unknown CFFI type: :COMPLEX-FLOAT.) 14:32:26 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 14:33:13 kliph [~user@144.92.35.150] has joined #lisp 14:33:27 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 14:34:26 Joreji_ [~thomas@79-078.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 14:35:38 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 14:36:05 kushal [~kdas@114.143.161.17] has joined #lisp 14:36:05 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.161.17] has quit [Changing host] 14:36:05 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 14:37:40 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@65.219.237.244] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 14:38:05 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.41.177] has joined #lisp 14:38:14 idurand: https://github.com/sionescu/lisp-matrix.git 14:38:29 emacs-dwim [~user@rrcs-72-43-236-2.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:38:30 treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp 14:39:38 rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:49 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:41:03 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@122-116-18-21.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 14:42:41 jnbek|wc [~jnbek@pdpc/supporter/active/jnbek] has joined #lisp 14:43:00 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:43:31 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@79-078.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:44:55 fe[nl]ix: lisp-matrix compiled! Thanks 14:44:57 phax [~phax@adsl-68-74-59-158.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:57 -!- phax [~phax@adsl-68-74-59-158.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net] has quit [Changing host] 14:44:57 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 14:45:32 -!- treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:49:40 treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp 14:49:44 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-165-118.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:50:40 -!- tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:51:12 wakeup [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-165-118.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:51:27 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 14:51:50 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:52:18 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:53:05 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:53:14 jcazevedo 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15:58:42 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 15:58:42 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:58:51 pnq [~nick@AC838516.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 15:59:21 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:59 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 16:06:24 -!- xyxu [~Adium@180.158.178.70] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:08:08 -!- ksergio [~sgarcia@mail.ageophysics.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:10:12 FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 16:11:02 -!- kliph [~user@144.92.35.150] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:11:39 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:13:12 drewc: quick note there seem to be some encoding issues for "Faré" at http://wiki.alu.org/Meta-discussion 16:13:18 kliph [~user@144.92.35.150] has joined #lisp 16:15:56 -!- jjkola [~jjkola@xdsl-83-150-83-66.nebulazone.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:16:17 intinig [~user@2-225-73-215.ip174.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:18:42 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:18:53 edgar-rft [~me@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 16:18:55 -!- am0c_ [~am0c@203.246.179.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:20:35 -!- intinig [~user@2-225-73-215.ip174.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:21:33 bad settings on the template renderer? 16:25:08 mon_key: looking into it now. 16:25:41 -!- BeLucid [~belucid@cpe-066-057-057-247.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:29:32 drewc: Great, because as it is currently that page is completely unusable :P 16:31:16 drewc: which is to say, "Thank you for your recent (and probably unfunded) attention to ALU/Cliki" 16:31:35 heh, unusable indeed! I cannot make out his name at all! :) 16:33:43 recent... heh ... 2005 was it? I cannot remember the dates that I started hosting cl-net. cliki and alu ... recent enough! :P 16:34:11 (and I agree that they need some attention these days, for sure) 16:34:50 ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #lisp 16:36:21 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 16:36:58 -!- pnq [~nick@AC838516.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:37:48 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 16:37:52 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 16:37:59 -!- treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:39:07 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 16:42:26 ykm [~yash@180.148.60.175] has joined #lisp 16:42:58 -!- ykm [~yash@180.148.60.175] has quit [Client Quit] 16:43:02 ikki [~ikki@189.196.101.205] has joined #lisp 16:45:34 -!- rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: rpg] 16:46:54 fantazo [~fantazo@91.119.121.102] has joined #lisp 16:49:50 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:51:35 -!- ASau [~user@128-69-157-61.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:53:13 add^_ [~add^_^@m37-2-245-50.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 16:53:22 ASau [~user@95-28-25-120.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 16:56:22 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:50 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.12.93] has joined #lisp 16:58:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.12.93] has quit [Changing host] 16:58:50 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 17:00:07 m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.149] has joined #lisp 17:00:43 -!- ``Erik [~erik@pool-108-3-178-223.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:01:01 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has joined #lisp 17:02:01 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-esyrnbyjwjvdjbnt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:03:03 ``Erik [~erik@pool-108-3-178-223.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:11 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.193.40] has joined #lisp 17:05:37 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 17:06:08 -!- hitecnologys [~No_Name@46.233.223.103] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:06:41 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:07:00 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 17:07:12 Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 17:07:38 -!- ``Erik [~erik@pool-108-3-178-223.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:08:18 ``Erik [~erik@pool-108-3-178-223.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:43 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:09:20 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 17:10:53 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.247.218] has joined #lisp 17:12:39 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m37-2-245-50.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 17:14:28 - 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I come to you bearing the following burden: I just got the following strange error while trying to start up slime: Error while ???ing c:\Users\C.demooij\Desktop\gdl\quicklisp\dists\quicklisp\software\slime-20120407-cvs\swank-backend.lisp: 18:42:55 ;; mkdir of U:\.slime\ failed 18:43:37 Up until yesterday, slime started fine, and now it won't start at all, giving this same error every time. 18:44:30 I think I know part of the reason behind this: today, I had emacs and probably still running when I went to the office, where my laptop automatically connected to some of the discs on the local network there. 18:44:44 One of these discs is U:\. 18:45:20 Right now I'm at home and am no longer connected to the office network, so that is probably why slime can't find that particular file. 18:45:39 -!- blackwol` is now known as blackwolf 18:45:43 Have you tried restarting emacs? 18:45:50 My question to you is as follows: why did slime decide to move an apparently essential file to that disc, and how can I fix it? 18:45:57 Yes, I have. 18:46:03 I'll try again, one second. 18:46:11 The .slime dir is used to store fasls 18:46:41 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-239.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:47:11 Slime's own fasls, I presume? 18:47:15 yes 18:47:22 Ah. 18:47:34 Well why is it looking for that folder on that disc? 18:47:41 No idea 18:47:45 cornelis: swank's fasl, to be precise. The default location is based on the windows equivalent of $HOME. 18:47:47 I didn't even use emacs while at work. 18:47:51 Ah. 18:48:18 I'm restarting slime, let's see what happens. 18:48:28 (I already restarted emacs. 18:48:29 ) 18:48:35 Nope, happened again. 18:48:40 So if your user data is on the network share at the office, there may be some lingering setting there. 18:48:51 Can I just change $HOME and fix this? 18:49:47 There are some miscellaneous files on the network share, but nothing that has to do with emacs. Just some copies of small sql databases and some visual studio solutions, if I recall correctly. 18:50:33 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:51:06 user data as in where your network settings store your configuration files, or My Documents, etc. 18:51:17 I am on windows, by the way. I presume the windows equivalent of $HOME is Path, or something similar? 18:51:17 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:51:48 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:49 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:52:02 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:52:26 Trying to use (clsql:with-transaction () (clsql:update-instance-from-records (make-instance....))) 18:52:31 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053000243.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 18:52:40 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:53:09 but get "no applicable method" for "STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION COMPUTE-APPLICABLE-METHODS (1)" 18:53:16 when called with arguments 18:53:16 (# (#)). [Condition of type SIMPLE-ERROR] 18:53:47 current quicklisp, readonly access to postgres works .. 18:54:08 cornelis: looks like it uses (user-homedir-pathname) 18:54:21 Which is Common Lisp. See how your implementation determines that 18:54:50 no. Depending on who you ask, it may be , C:\Users\username\AppData\Roaming, or some other magic directory. 18:55:11 I got that from my swank source. 18:55:21 default-fasl-dir in swank-loader.lisp 18:55:23 I'm using GenDL, which uses quicklisp as far as I'm aware. 18:55:58 Joreji [~thomas@ht-210.humtec.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 18:56:23 pkhuong: that sounds like the usual windows homedir, but something is changing it on cornelis system 18:56:54 There is no .slime folder in my C:\Users\username\AppData\Roaming, but there is a .slime folder in my C:\Users\username 18:57:01 Can I just copy it there? 18:57:14 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:57:17 No. You have to convince swank to look in some place other than u: for it 18:57:58 damn 18:57:59 billstclair: right, slime is trying to use whetever cornelis's network settings have replaced that path with. 18:58:22 CCL looks at the HOME and USERPROFILE environment settings. Don't know abou tother Lisps 18:58:49 No. HOME is commented out. 18:58:51 So USERPROFILE 18:59:00 Okay, how can convince swank to do that? By the way, thanks a lot, I probably wouldn't have figured this out in a million and would just have reinstalled. 18:59:17 You need to change the USERPROFILE environment setting in Windows 18:59:30 A reboot would probably fix it. 18:59:35 yes 19:00:31 Ah, that makes sense. I rebooted at work and haven't rebooted at home yet. I'll try that. 19:00:45 Thanks a lot everyone, goodbye. 19:00:48 -!- cornelis [~cornelis@5ED27750.cm-7-3b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has left #lisp 19:03:21 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:05:28 flip214: does UPDATE-INSTANCE-FROM-RECORDS work without the WITH-TRANSACTION, does MAKE-INSTANCE actually make an instance of a VIEW-CLASS with the pkey's bound, are you connected to the database? 19:06:10 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 19:06:20 *drewc* has not used clsql in many years and recommends postmodern for postgresql database access 19:07:14 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 19:07:46 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:08:13 drewc: the make-instance works, it has a pkey (because I specify it manually), and u-i-f-r doesn't work ... that's why I tried to use w-t 19:08:35 I tried to use postmodern - but it cannot fetch the layout from the (existing) DB. 19:08:46 for clsql there's clsql-orm ... 19:08:53 ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #lisp 19:09:07 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:10:20 CL:DELETE preserves the order of SEQUENCE for non-deleted elements right? 19:11:35 mon_key: The result will have the remaining elements in the same order. The sequence you pass in, I don't think there are any guarantees. 19:12:15 ok thanks. 19:12:33 and it is an instance of a view class? and we are connected to the DB when trying to update it? 19:13:07 -!- ZabaQ [~jconnors@85.207.11.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:13:13 asvil [~asvil@178.120.34.174] has joined #lisp 19:13:27 saage [~saage@200.181.252.115] has joined #lisp 19:13:27 -!- saage [~saage@200.181.252.115] has quit [Changing host] 19:13:27 saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has joined #lisp 19:15:12 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:17:04 drewc: do you know of any way to use postmodern and to get the classes from the existing DB? 19:17:52 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-163-106.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:18:03 flip214: maybe take a look at cl-schema-migrations? 19:19:13 mon_key: thanks .... but "cl-migrations does not yet have the ability to generate a migration out of an existing database schema. This feature will be added soon. " ha! 19:19:32 flip214: :( 19:19:43 no, I actually made something like that about, oh, 5 years ago, but now I prefer to not have that at all. 19:19:55 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-058-033.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:19:58 mailing list activity: apr 2007, jan 2009 (_not_ "-", just ","), and nothing afterwards 19:20:11 drewc: so what do you prefer now? 19:20:13 aloysius21 [~user@99-123-152-51.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:38 defclass. manually. 19:20:38 drewc: Marco was speaking very highly of taking that approach, instead of having lisp code define the schema. 19:21:00 lisp code should not define the schema 19:21:22 a weakness of rucksack, imho 19:21:24 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:21:24 my schema's are defined in SQL, and migrations. 19:21:54 I even do some pl/pgsql for things that have to be in the database, not the application 19:21:54 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:21:57 I found it convenient to use pomo's defdao (wrapped) just to generate table definitions and insert new entries. 19:22:01 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 19:22:07 drewc: defclass, manually, gets old after some time ... 19:22:23 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:25 simply because it's easier to edit and it can live in my source files, which I actually like. 19:22:29 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:22:45 and the reverse way (using defclass and getting the DB generated) doesn't work that well, either - as indizes and unique keys can't be stored in the defclass ... 19:23:29 oh sorry, not defdao 19:23:29 defclass + deftable 19:24:39 and the versioning can be easily done by a clear-text backup and using that ... 19:24:41 flip214: well, i have been using defclass a long time, and it has not yet gotten old. ymmv. It is not hard to find the definition of a table and postgres and output a class definiton based on that. 19:25:19 drewc: well, clsql-orm does 95% of that already ... 19:25:21 drewc: https://github.com/sykopomp/sykosomatic/blob/develop/src/account.lisp#L45-55 19:25:43 drewc: from https://github.com/sykopomp/sykosomatic/blob/develop/src/db.lisp#L74-104 19:25:58 irpanech6 [~user@184.66.174.87] has joined #lisp 19:26:38 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:26:54 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.193.204.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:27:14 hmmm, so defdao can specify unique keys ... that's something 19:27:26 *drewc* generally has transient slots, and generally no longer uses a class that is just the layout of the table ... I tried that for a while, and tried using :references and :referenced from in my own DAO library ... 19:27:44 DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-25-105.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:47 and it turns out that was, for me, a bad idea 19:30:16 sykopomp: http://common-lisp.net/project/lisp-on-lines/repo/relational-objects-for-lisp/ 19:30:32 sykopomp: I guess you already know that, but that email check RegEx is not RFC compliant. 19:30:49 But ... if you've see the compliant RegEx, you'd wish you could forget ..... 19:31:03 sykopomp: in the defdao macro where/when is the parsed-opts evaluated? 19:31:16 that was when I liked the DAOs ... I still have a commercial project that uses ROFL... but it will not shortly. 19:32:14 drewc: I tried to avoid using the actual class objects for anything other than insertion, but I wasn't very consistent with that at all and felt a little shy about commitment to go either way. 19:32:45 well, what's the experts opinion if there's an existing DB? writing defclass might work for 2 or 3 tables ... 19:33:14 but if most of the things are defined in the DB anyway (foreign key relations, etc) I prefer to get most of that pre-defined 19:33:27 mon_key: I don't know! I'm puzzled! Is that dead code that I totally didn't notice? I haven't touched that codebase in many months :) 19:33:31 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-162-192.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:34:05 sykopomp: I don't mean to cast doubt I just can't find a caller :) 19:34:14 mon_key: I can't, either ;( 19:34:44 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:35:08 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-148-93.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 19:35:52 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:36:28 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:36:50 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 19:37:26 maybe it shadows something elsewhere in pomo ? 19:38:34 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-148-93.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:50 It's more likely that it's dead code from one of several rewrites. 19:39:17 still neat macrology :) 19:40:04 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:40:23 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21:28:20 tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.148.204.90] has joined #lisp 21:29:35 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 21:29:38 -!- Myk267 [~myk@71.149.255.106] has quit [Quit: Myk267] 21:30:11 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:35:11 -!- tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-25-193.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:35:41 -!- jnbek|wc [~jnbek@pdpc/supporter/active/jnbek] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:36:44 austinh [~austin@c-24-21-49-222.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:15 Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-255-106.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:23 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 21:40:34 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:41:27 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:48:26 -!- Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-255-106.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Myk267] 21:49:33 -!- kliph [~user@144.92.35.150] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:54:08 [6502] [5e24f17b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.241.123] has joined #lisp 21:54:43 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-25-105.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 21:56:26 <[6502]> (dolist (x L) (let ((x x)) ...)) just to be sure x gets a fresh binding at each iteration kinda sucks, no? 21:57:08 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:57:31 <[6502]> why does CL allow just assignment? 21:57:54 [6502], when I write DOLIST style macros, i always make a fresh binding for the user just in case they try to do crazy things like SETFing it 21:59:15 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:59:16 example: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/cl-permutation/src/0846526f41e6/permutation-generation.lisp#cl-91 22:00:01 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.160] has joined #lisp 22:03:01 Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-255-106.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:01 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.69] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:03:04 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:03:12 <[6502]> Quadrescence: I think the most annoying thing is if you're using the iteration variable in a closure (all the closures will capture the same variable) 22:03:36 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.69] has joined #lisp 22:03:38 yeah that's a good point 22:03:40 <[6502]> Quadrescence: apparently this is a quite common mistake in Python and Javascript 22:03:46 yes 22:03:59 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 22:04:01 sellout: therep? 22:04:47 -!- tensorpudding_ is now known as tensorpudding 22:04:55 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.34.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:05:03 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:48 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:06:11 [6502] CL allows assignments, it's what dolist is doing when it's iterating x. it's still the same variable though 22:07:31 [6502], http://paste.lisp.org/display/130205 22:07:57 -!- DrForr [~jgoff@d149031.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:08:07 rpg: t 22:08:39 DataLinkDroid [~DataLink@1.144.6.66] has joined #lisp 22:12:37 <[6502]> kennyd: exactly. I wonder why allowing this freedom. You cannot count on being an assignment, and you cannot count on being a fresh binding. I'd say that in most cases a fresh binding is what one really wants... and it's always possible to establishing an outer binding when this is not the case. 22:12:51 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:13:57 <[6502]> kennyd: now in CL you have to either establish an outer binding if you want to be sure about assignment, and you have to create a fresh binding if you want to be sure about it 22:14:27 <[6502]> kennyd: I'd say that for a compiler there's no performance penality in establishing a fresh binding 22:14:50 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:16:22 <[6502]> may be it was just because a few implementations were using fresh bindings and a few were using assignment... and no one at the table wanted to change existing code 22:16:37 on a related note: http://paste.lisp.org/display/130205#1 22:17:40 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aean245.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 22:17:58 [6502]: back in the 80s, it was common for extra bindings to translate into worse register allocation. 22:18:05 <[6502]> Quadrescence: too schemeish for my taste 22:18:29 assuming there was any register allocation, and that each binding didn't just get copied in its own stack slot. 22:18:30 [6502], I always wonder why people prefer macros over just using a damn LAMBDA 22:18:58 (when, of course, a lambda would suffice) 22:20:35 Someone a few months ago at my work decided that stuff like (defmacro set-callback (&body body) ..) was better than just having a function (defun set-callback (callback-fun) ...), and the rationale was "well I don't have to type lambda and it indents less", which I don't think is very good, and you're just gimping the operator SET-CALLBACK by making it a macro 22:21:34 I don't think dolist usually expands into anything like calling a lambda repeatedly. 22:21:52 Bike, I don't think it does either 22:23:14 Probably some tagbody construct 22:23:29 (at least most usually) 22:23:29 <[6502]> pkhuong: in a dolist form you still need at least one binding... i'm not sure I understand the register allocation part 22:24:11 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-150-32.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:24:51 [6502]: you don't have to understand it. If you don't like cl:dolist, you're welcome to write your-own:dolist. 22:24:54 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-210-188.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:24:54 [6502]: compilers used to be very straightforward. Clear enough? 22:26:30 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-210-188.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:26:36 <[6502]> pjb: I did write my own dolist, and implemented it using assignment after reading this was lecit in CL, and got bitten in the ass because of that. So I started wondering why dolist is that way... 22:27:33 -!- tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:27:40 [6502], CLHS says "It is implementation-dependent whether dolist establishes a new binding of var on each iteration or whether it establishes a binding for var once at the beginning and then assigns it on any subsequent iterations." 22:27:48 So DOLIST isn't inherently that way, it's an implementation decision. 22:28:07 tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #lisp 22:28:08 -!- poindont` [~user@cloudbovina.bovinasancta.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:28:24 tr-808_ [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #lisp 22:28:36 <[6502]> Quadrescence: but after thinking about it I think that using assignment is worse (especially for closures)... 22:28:51 [6502], It can also potentially be more efficient. 22:29:05 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-16-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:29:34 [6502]: cl:dolist is NOT that way! 22:29:46 <[6502]> Quadrescence: this is the part I don't understand in a real compiler. It's more efficient in my toy lisp because I'm compiling to Javascript and Javascript has function-level locals (to get a new binding you need an inner function) 22:30:22 I don't know what else I could write. Maybe you'd understand if you read. 22:31:03 poindont` [~user@cloudbovina.bovinasancta.com] has joined #lisp 22:31:29 Your compiler is doing stupid stuff and it's targetting a high level language that's very close to lisp. What do you think happens when one has a simple compiler targetting machine code? 22:31:44 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:32:34 <[6502]> pkhuong: do you mean that lexicals are managed the same way no matter if they're captured or not? 22:33:31 -!- tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:33:31 managed by what? 22:33:54 tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #lisp 22:34:44 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@38.117.156.114] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 22:34:46 <[6502]> pkhuong: by the compiler. I thought that a compiler would necessarily need to handle differently a local that is possibly captured from a local that can just live in a register or in the stack. 22:34:59 <[6502]> captured from a closure 22:34:59 by *what* compiler? 22:35:18 <[6502]> pkhuong: even a simple one 22:35:36 like yours? 22:35:48 *maxm* tried to read above conversation, and I have no idea what them two are arguing about 22:36:08 maxm, I'm having a hard time too. I just want to argue about using lambdas over macros 22:36:14 maxm: [6502] thinks he can describe the performance envelope of all Lisp compilers, extinct and extant. 22:36:31 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:37:23 <[6502]> pkhuong: my toy is not generating real low-level code. My lexicals are javascript locals and capturing is done by Javascript. But a new binding requires a function (there's no local scope in javascript, only function scope) and a new binding is slower 22:38:02 imagine how much harder it would when targetting a machine that's even farther from CL's semantics. 22:38:08 <[6502]> pkhuong: hmmm... no :-) ... I simply don't see what can be saved by using assignment in a real machine-code producing compiler 22:38:50 <[6502]> pkhuong: I can take your word on that :-) 22:39:38 Try and find a C compiler from the 70s or 80s, you might be enlightened as to how simple a compiler can be. 22:41:36 Syntax-directed compilers were all the rage, not so long ago. They're useful and easy to understand, but generating the same code for equivalent but different programs certainly isn't their strength. 22:41:54 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:42:15 -!- Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-255-106.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Myk267] 22:42:45 saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has joined #lisp 22:42:46 <[6502]> pkhuong: still I think that using assignment instead of fresh bindings sucks from a semantic point of view. and implementation-dependent is even worse than always using assignment. 22:43:27 <[6502]> pkhuong: but it's probably me :-) 22:43:29 Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-255-106.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:17 I don't see why. Most of the time it doesn't matter, except that the vendor can adapt its strategy to the implementation's strength. when it does, you insert a binding yourself, just like you would with assignment. 22:44:18 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:44:37 JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 22:51:49 -!- poindont` [~user@cloudbovina.bovinasancta.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:52:10 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:52:15 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:53:02 <[6502]> pkhuong: everyone (or at least quite many) fall in this trap about captures in Python and Javascript. The Python solution is (lambda f=f: ...), in Javascript is even uglier (function(f){return function(){....}})(f). This is not a frequent mistake in Common Lisp? 22:55:08 -!- kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:01:33 phax [~phax@adsl-68-74-59-158.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:33 -!- phax [~phax@adsl-68-74-59-158.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:01:33 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 23:02:54 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Client Quit] 23:03:12 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 23:06:48 -!- tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:08:48 prsteele [~user@dhcp-128-253-211-249.res-wired.cornell.edu] has joined #lisp 23:09:29 timack [~timack@hlfx58-2a-225.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 23:10:33 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.160] has joined #lisp 23:12:43 <[6502]> http://www.apl.jhu.edu/~hall/Lisp-Notes/Dalton-Pitfalls-List.text 23:13:00 is there a standard function for taking a sublist of a list? e.g. (take 3 '(1 2 3 4 5)) returning (1 2 3)? 23:14:34 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.113.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:14:36 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:15:17 clhs subseq 23:15:18 prsteele: subseq works for that, no? 23:16:06 thanks! 23:17:19 -!- ynniv [~ynniv@c-50-133-193-236.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ynniv] 23:17:49 -!- timack [~timack@hlfx58-2a-225.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Quit: Changing server] 23:22:31 UFO686 [~zhangyh@124.73.66.148] has joined #lisp 23:22:51 -!- [6502] [5e24f17b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.241.123] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:23:53 -!- flanfl [~flanfl@cpc2-sgyl22-0-0-cust619.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:23:58 carlo_au [~carlo@ppp59-167-4-115.lns1.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:09 timack [~timack@hlfx58-2a-225.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 23:25:17 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:26:15 -!- timack [~timack@hlfx58-2a-225.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 23:27:36 timack [~timack@hlfx58-2a-225.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 23:29:29 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.69] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:35:36 poindont` [~user@cloudbovina.bovinasancta.com] has joined #lisp 23:40:48 guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:12 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 23:46:01 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-165-118.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:47:06 wakeup [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-165-118.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:50:06 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:50:14 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.41.177] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.1.1] 23:50:23 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:50:24 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 23:54:19 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 23:55:18 -!- poindont` [~user@cloudbovina.bovinasancta.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:56:11 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 23:57:23 -