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00:04:43 <antonv> fare, how is going with the heap inspector you told about yesterday?
00:04:58 <antonv> how you call it, heap reverser or how?
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00:07:19 <Fare> heap inspector?
00:07:47 <Fare> oh, on #sbcl, I was pointed to object-size.lisp from hu.dwim.presentation
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00:19:37 <antonv> dwim.hu fixed their website...
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00:45:46 <p_l|backup> ... impossible
00:49:11 <sykopomp> ?
00:49:30 <p_l|backup> dwim.hu fixing the website ;)
00:49:39 <madnificent> sykopomp: antonv just said that dwim.hu fixed their website
00:50:00 <sykopomp> ahahahaha that does sound impossible.
00:50:02 <sykopomp> :\
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01:09:06 <antonv> hu.dwim producess tonns of cod
01:09:07 <antonv> e
01:09:31 <antonv> heap inspector - if I udnerstand fare right, helps to track down memory leaks
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02:45:49 <organometallica> whoops
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03:52:01 <dto> hi fare.
03:52:08 <Fare> hi
03:52:10 <Fare> got your email
03:52:15 <Fare> still no answer
03:52:24 <dto> no prob
03:54:30 <dto> what else is up? (i wasn't just trying to ping you about that :)
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04:24:44 <qwertu> hwy, im trying to work through pcl. i saw the reddit thing about #lisplab. so, should i ask my qs there or here?
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04:25:11 <Zhivago> qwertu: asdj, as asdsha here.
04:25:29 <qwertu> ?
04:25:53 <Zhivago> I'm sorry -- I don't seem to be very good at speaking Retard yet.
04:26:04 <Zhivago> You might ask CL related questions here.
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04:27:12 <Cosman246> #lisplab is empty
04:27:21 <Cosman246> for future reference
04:27:49 <qwertu> well excuse my spelling, I'm a bit high atm.
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04:29:17 <adu> qwertu: that's not something you should say on irc
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04:30:33 <qwertu> most likely
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08:47:22 <asvil`> Hi all. Can I ask small question about stumpwm api?
08:47:24 treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp
08:47:38 <asvil`> May*:)
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08:48:23 <naryl> asvil`: We don't know until you ask :)
08:48:38 <naryl> If it's stumpwm it's ok.
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08:51:12 <tcr> asvil`: I thought stumpwm has its own chat room
08:51:57 <asvil`> So, I need to handle window focus movement. There is *focus-window-hook* with 2 arguments: new and old window, all works fine until focus moves between groups. In such case, old window is nil.
08:54:01 <Zhivago> Why is that a problem?
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08:55:38 <asvil`> I want to save keyboard layout for window, and when focus moves between groups, I can't do that for old window, which is in previous group, because stumpwm do not pass it to hook.
08:56:42 -!- smanek [~smanek@204.28.125.157] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
08:56:53 <Zhivago> Don't you get the converse effect when you leave a group?
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08:58:45 <pjb> minion: memo for Cosman246: that's because it's spelled #lisp-lab
08:58:45 <minion> Remembered. I'll tell Cosman246 when he/she/it next speaks.
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09:01:15 <asvil`> Zhivago: no
09:01:39 <Zhivago> That is unfortunate, but perhaps you could remember the last window it did enter.
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09:17:42 <asvil`> solved by focus-group-hook and stumpwm::group-current-window
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12:34:32 <b_> Is PAIP techniques still worth studying or I should skip it completely and pick up some 'modern approach' book? Goals being to better understand lisp,interpreting/compiling and AI techniques
12:35:14 <kpreid> PAIP is an introduction to doing stuff lispily which uses AI for all its examples.
12:37:17 <kpreid> if you really want to understand lisp and lisp evaluation, _Lisp in Small Pieces_ is another classic which focuses on that. If you really want to understand classical AI techniques, _Artificial Intelligence: a Modern Approach_ is another classic which focuses on that.
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12:41:08 <maxm> b_: paip techniques are good, if somewhat dated. If you never did any ai type stuff before, its as good introduction as any
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12:48:30 <b_> kpreid:  I want to understand the current AI techniques, I (due to lack of time) would rather spend time learning some faster algorithm for the same problem, rather than learning classical for its own sake.
12:49:00 <b_> but if classical techniques are a building block then i do want to study them
12:49:04 <H4ns> b_: do you want to learn "ai" or "common lisp"?
12:49:06 <kpreid> I don't have any recommendations myself, then.
12:49:37 <b_> H4ns:  both, preferably modern ai programming in lisp
12:49:48 <H4ns> b_: if what you want to learn is both, then read paip first.  that will give you lisp knowledge in the ai contextw which you can then apply to more modern techniques.
12:49:50 <kpreid> b_: modern AI is no longer especially tied to Lisp.
12:50:04 <H4ns> b_: lisp in itself is not "modern"
12:50:13 <kpreid> you can use Lisp, that's a fine idea, but don't think that it gives you an AI-specific advantage.
12:50:24 <_8david> indeed, PAIP is an easy read, so why not quickly work through that first?  It's also ontopic for this channel -- a special bonus.
12:52:59 <_8david> For AI:AMA, make sure to get a recent (3rd) edition.  I ordered the 1st edition a long time ago, and when I actually started working through it years later, I had to find out that it's been superseded by a much better new edition.
12:53:21 <madnificent> H4ns: what would you say is 'modern' then?  i don't see many features in other languages that aren't available in lisp.  though i'd agree that the libraries in lisp tend to follow a different form of development.
12:53:49 <pjb> madnificent: modern would be to run ANN or other statistical code on CUDA.
12:53:55 <pjb> CL-cuda would come handy for that.
12:54:37 <madnificent> pjb: so you're saying that 'C' is the modern language?  i'd beg to differ.
12:55:19 <_8david> I doubt that most "modern API programming" happens in "modern languages" at all.  At least I wouldn't call MATLAB, R, and C++ modern.
12:55:22 <madnificent> from a research perspective opencl may be interesting, but i doubt most applications will be written in cuda ):
12:55:49 <_8david> Hopefully the somewhat more modern Python steamroller will roll over all of those.
12:56:07 <maxm> b_: personal opinion in ai/machine learning the agility/ad-hoc research/trying and discarding ideas quickly is of more importance then raw speed
12:56:27 <madnificent> maxm: so you are arguing pro-lisp for ai?
12:56:31 <pjb> Python is todays's LOGO.  It's a modern LOGO.
12:56:48 <madnificent> pjb: i remember LOGO!  :D
12:56:54 <pjb> So the question is whether you want your AI written by children or by professionnal programmers.
12:57:10 <maxm> there are two extremes, one is people writing backprop algos in very high level languages like mathematica or R and then not being able to do anything, since they run at the speed of C backprop algo on 1990 hardware
12:57:34 <maxm> other extreme is going all C/C++, code runs fast, but its slow to develop/understand/change it
12:57:39 <maxm> lisp hits the right spot for me
12:57:54 <_8david> pjb: yeah, right, because all the people working with numpy/scipy/matplotlib/nltk/etc aren't professionals.
12:58:00 <maxm> maybe 30-40% slower (without safety 0) then c/c++, but flexibility more then makes up for it
12:58:15 <pjb> _8david: they're using a toy language.
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12:59:03 <maxm> it depends, if one has access to google scale hardware, its perfectly fine to do stuff in python
12:59:09 -!- prxq_ is now known as prxq
12:59:45 <maxm> but if you an individual researcher, without access to petaflops of cpu time, you got to be realistic about these things
13:00:03 <pjb> Hence CL with cl-cuda.
13:00:20 <pjb> The realistic platform.
13:00:42 <madnificent> pjb: i'd rather see cl-opencl
13:00:46 <prxq> what is typically the reason for lacking source locations in a current sbcl? (slime from quicklisp)
13:00:51 *maxm* has to try cl-cuda.. can you express pretty much any algorithm in it? or you have to go through contortions?
13:00:54 <pkhuong> maxm: I see lots of people using python productively. Nearly all their execution time happens in C or fortran code in either third-party or runtime-generated libraries.
13:01:04 <pkhuong> maxm: same contortions as CUDA.
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13:01:34 <prxq> maxm: it also depends a lot on what you want to do
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13:01:41 <pkhuong> prxq: calling eval/compile at runtime.
13:01:58 <H4ns> prxq: source locations work work rarely for me in sbc
13:01:59 <H4ns> k
13:02:00 <H4ns> l
13:02:01 <maxm> 90% of cpu time in financial apps seems to be spent in min/max over a sliding window over time series.. All the volatility stuff in the end reduces to that
13:02:30 <prxq> pkhuong: in this case, the complete code was loaded using asdf.
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13:02:59 <prxq> H4ns: that's unfortunate. they work for me and they're really useful.
13:03:16 <prxq> compiled and loaded, I should say.
13:03:24 <maxm> time series, n -> new time series of pair(min(last n points), max(last n points))
13:03:27 <H4ns> prxq: was it not you who just asked why they would not work?
13:03:34 <maxm> ^ can I do above in cuda? time series is array of floats
13:03:43 <_8david> prxq: I don't know whether recent SBCL's make things better or worse.  But in general, check if some of those .asds loaded through quicklisp tampered with sb-c::*policy* (before/after comparison).
13:04:04 <prxq> H4ns: well, they work for me, but not for the students who came with their laptop yesterday.
13:04:30 <prxq> _8david: hm - thanks. I'm sure they don't.
13:04:36 *maxm* thinks there should be a lot of overlap with graphics actually, ie anti-aliasing or smoothing type algos
13:04:44 <H4ns> prxq: ah, ok - i'm among those students then :)
13:04:48 <maxm> except for smaller windows usually in graphics
13:04:53 <prxq> H4ns: :-)
13:05:07 <maxm> and using 2d series rather then 1d
13:05:10 <pkhuong> prxq: did the students receive fasls along with the source?
13:05:48 <prxq> pkhuong: no. And I actually deleted the fasls, recompiled everything, but they did not work.
13:06:30 <b_> shouldnt cl-cuda be in language bindings section in here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CUDA#Language_bindings
13:06:38 <pkhuong> what happens if you run SBCL from the command line? Is there anything in .sbclrc?
13:06:38 <_8david> prxq: well, and whether said policy had sufficiently high debug in the first place
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13:07:04 <pkhuong> _8david: i.e. debug > 0?
13:07:31 <pkhuong> prxq: what kind of source locations are you missing?
13:08:18 <prxq> pkhuong: when in a backtrace in the debugger. Usually, 'v' beams you to to correct function (although not to the precise location)
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13:08:38 <prxq> M-. wasn't working either
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13:09:00 <prxq> anyways, it seems there is not a canonical explanation.
13:09:12 <H4ns> prxq: that works for me, so i'm in some other group
13:09:26 <pkhuong> M-. should just work out of the box. For locations in backtraces, you need debug >= 2.
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13:12:08 <H4ns> pkhuong: what is the proper way to set that?
13:13:32 <pkhuong> H4ns: I think a proclaim in .sbclrc works.
13:13:50 <H4ns> pkhuong: thanks!
13:14:14 <pkhuong> But some packages may override it, so (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'debug 2) is more robust.
13:15:48 <H4ns> pkhuong: does that override what sb-c::*policy* sets forth?
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13:16:09 <pkhuong> always.
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13:16:45 <H4ns> cool, thanks!
13:16:57 *H4ns* put that in .swank.lisp
13:16:59 <_8david> s/override/impose a lower limit on/ IIRC, right?
13:17:35 <pkhuong> _8david: right.
13:18:46 <_8david> restrict-compiler-policy is really cool for debugging, but a bit like a gentoo user thinking they know better which compiler settings to use than the upstream authors.  The sad state of affairs is that such thinking is often actually right, but it's still awfully wrong in principle.
13:19:34 <pkhuong> I can see it being useful during development, when you know you really want to crank debug up.
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13:21:09 <fe[nl]ix> _8david: most upstream authors are clueless wrt. compiler settings, with a few exceptions, usually those developing A/V codecs and encryption libraries
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13:24:48 <_8david> asdf doesn't have a system-wide :policy parameter, does it?
13:25:12 *_8david* lost track of all the nice "new asdf" features
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13:32:39 <Zhivago> A good argument for not doing ahead of time compilation.
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13:33:19 <fe[nl]ix> Zhivago: which one ?
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13:35:11 <Zhivago> Well, compiler settings are most meaningful at the point of use.
13:35:38 <Zhivago> So the idea that the upstream author should set them is pretty ludicrous.
13:36:02 <Zhivago> How do they know if I have magic sseq10zogblog extensions or not?
13:36:15 <Zhivago> On the other hand, users are too stupid to figure them out.
13:36:23 <Zhivago> So the only sensible place left is in the run-time.
13:36:39 <Zhivago> Which (a) knows what it is running on, and (b) knows what it is doing.
13:37:17 <pkhuong> Zhivago: at best, you're arguing for delivery/link-time compilation.
13:37:40 <Zhivago> Doesn't cover (b).
13:38:25 <Zhivago> You could argue for profile-lead static compilation.
13:38:27 <pkhuong> out here in the real world, we compile a couple versions ahead of time and switch at runtime.
13:38:52 <Zhivago> Out here in the real world we wear boots and dance about like fairies.
13:39:08 <Zhivago> Not a convincing way to start an argument ...
13:39:27 <pkhuong> it's an observation.
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13:39:49 <Zhivago> Your current practice is irrelevant to what might be a good practice.
13:40:02 <j_king> (morning 'lisp)
13:40:38 <pkhuong> It's highly relevant to your assertion of impossibility. The upstream doesn't have to know what extension you have, only those you may have.
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13:41:23 <Zhivago> What assertion of impossibility?
13:41:48 <Zhivago> Ok, so your argument is that the upstream should have every current and future configuration.
13:42:06 <Zhivago> An interesting exercise in optimism.
13:42:33 <pkhuong> If we're still talking about compiler optimisations, that's an exercise in using icc.
13:44:00 <Zhivago> I didn't realize that we were limiting ourselves to C/C++ on x86.
13:45:41 <pkhuong> Five lines up, you said that switching between pre-compiled versions at runtime meant one had to have every possible configuration. Clearly not true. So, what's the problem with compiling interesting combos ahead of time?
13:46:28 <Zhivago> No. You said "The upstream doesn't have to know what extension you have, only those you may have."
13:46:43 <pkhuong> Yeah, that's easy.
13:46:50 <Zhivago> That's your argument that you need to have every posible configuration.
13:47:05 <pkhuong> have as in know. The thing is, there aren't that many of them.
13:47:40 <Zhivago> Well, if you limit yourself to a small number of possibilities, as icc does, then that's true.
13:48:45 <Zhivago> I was surprised to see a new mips machine other other day.
13:51:25 <pkhuong> incredible. Which extensions or scheduling peculiarities did that machine present? How many compilers, ahead of time or not, supported them?
13:55:03 <maxm> prxq: if it goes to correct function, but not precise location it means the macro that expanded the function was re-consing.. Happens to code-walked code, ie iterate
13:55:51 <prxq> maxm: i see.
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14:20:13 <Quadrescence> You know, SUBLIS is a useful function.
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14:47:12 <pjb> Quadrescence: PAILIS and NRECONC too :-)
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16:14:39 <Cosman246> Hello
16:14:40 <minion> Cosman246, memo from pjb: that's because it's spelled #lisp-lab
16:15:03 <Cosman246> oh
16:15:08 *Cosman246* facepalms
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16:20:48 <jasom> http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/~lmeyerov/projects/socioplt/viz/rank.html#
16:21:02 <jasom> Common lisp ranked #2 in "This language has a very dogmatic community"
16:21:26 <sykopomp> WHAT
16:21:31 <sykopomp> Who's #1?!
16:21:35 <jasom> Agda
16:21:35 <oGMo> python? perl?
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16:21:50 <sykopomp> oh. Agda.
16:21:54 <sykopomp> haha. That would make sense.
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16:22:42 <jasom> Interesting that that's the perception; I find common-lisp to have the opposite problem, there are fewer widely agreed upon conventions than in other languages...
16:22:54 <sykopomp> unfortunately, outsiders seem to confuse "aware of the universal truths of programming" with "dogma".
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16:23:29 <jasom> C++ ranks first in "This language has many features which seem 'tacked on'"
16:23:30 <oGMo> jasom: depends on the topic
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16:24:37 <sykopomp> yeah. As long as iterate or defclass* aren't brought up!
16:24:42 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp
16:24:54 <prxq> sykopomp: heresy!
16:25:23 <sykopomp> dwim.hu gets less flak because at least we don't consider it actual common lisp :D
16:26:26 <oGMo> a _true_ scotsman wouldn't use dwim.hu
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16:26:59 <jasom> Surprisingly Agda did not take first place in "I often feel like I am not smart engough to write this language"
16:27:19 <jasom> It got narrowly beaten out by Coq
16:27:23 <oGMo> malbolge must not be on the list
16:27:47 <jasom> oGMo: it excluded languages that everyone agrees are a joke
16:27:49 <sykopomp> I assume this involves languages that are meant to be used by real people.
16:27:53 <jasom> with the possible exception of Cobol
16:28:02 <sykopomp> snort
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16:32:10 <docAvid> Possible exception? So we aren't sure if Cobol was excluded?
16:32:24 <jasom> docAvid: aren't sure if everyone agress that Cobol is a joke
16:32:29 <docAvid> :)
16:32:33 <jasom> Cobol was included
16:33:11 <oGMo> eh .. cobol is "more serious" than VB or a number of the other languages on there
16:33:23 <dto> how to avoid groupthink in a language community who admit their language is unique, i dunno
16:33:32 <oGMo> in practice people use them for non-joke purposes, so it makes sense
16:34:02 <Cosman246> ahahahah
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16:37:14 <trebor_dki> hello, i have a simple method-combination problem (mixin) and my solution does feel very sub-optimal: http://paste.lisp.org/display/129892. can someone give me just a hint/keyword/chapter to read/search?
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16:37:57 <Cosman246> I wonder why CL doesn't top "this language is very flexible"?
16:38:19 <jasom> Cosman246: because more people know Ruby
16:38:31 <gigamonkey> trebor_dki: you may want a :before method instead of a primary method.
16:38:46 <Cosman246> jasom: it might also be because of the clojure kool-aid
16:39:04 <Cosman246> (their reader is too complex for a lisp, and yet)
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16:40:08 <trebor_dki> gigamonkey: thank you. i read about the :before, but ... it seems i misunderstood it (even do not know what a primary method is) - thanks i will google for it
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16:41:09 <oGMo> Cosman246: this is perception, not understanding. most people don't grok CL.
16:41:31 <gigamonkey> trebor_dki: you might take a look at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-generic-functions.html
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16:42:05 <Cosman246> oGMo: I also find it funny that CL is negatively correlated with other Lisp dialects
16:42:13 <Cosman246> wow, there are so many lusers
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16:42:37 *trebor_dki* reads ...
16:42:53 <oGMo> again lack of understanding (e.g., possible lack of familiarity with all the development in the past decade)
16:43:13 <oGMo> if you want to promote it, take the list as possible things to address
16:44:01 <Cosman246> or I could design something new
16:44:08 <Cosman246> I *am* working on an mftl
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16:52:31 <trebor_dki> hm, gigamonkey, one question: if i use :before in each deftmethod, how/where do i define the primary method?
16:53:25 <gigamonkey> trebor_dki: you can just define one that does nothing, maybe. Specialize on T so it applies to everything.
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16:57:09 <trebor_dki> gigamonkey: this is what i tried (i think), but it did not work (did not give errors/warnings) but only the first :before method was called... (pasting)...
16:58:20 <|3b|> trebor_dki: does PROGN method combination do what you want?
16:58:50 <sellout> trebor_dki: What |3b| said.
16:59:36 <trebor_dki> i pasted the :before variant as an annotation: http://paste.lisp.org/display/129892#1
17:00:58 <trebor_dki> sorry i do not understand what |3b| says. how/where should i use progn?
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17:02:23 *trebor_dki* reading about progn and method-combination (did not see any progn in there, obviously overlooked it)
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17:04:38 <sellout> trebor_dki: Annotated.
17:05:01 <francogrex> do you think we can digitally sign pdf documents with a lisp library (like ironclad...)?
17:06:51 <gigamonkey> trebor_dki: I find it odd that only one of the :before methods is run.
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17:08:18 <|3b|> one is specialized on the wrong class
17:08:22 <|3b|> a1 instead of a11
17:08:54 <trebor_dki> oh, my ...
17:09:04 <trebor_dki> |3b|: you are so right ... thanks.
17:09:37 <froydnj> francogrex: I sign ironclad releases with ironclad's code, fwiw
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17:10:13 <trebor_dki> thanks gigamonkey |3b| & sellout  for this lesson. next time i'll try harder/better to understand clhs-info
17:10:31 <gigamonkey> Cool. Have fun.
17:10:59 <francogrex> froydnj: how about having a signing a PDF document?
17:11:30 <francogrex> would that be possible?
17:11:38 <froydnj> francogrex: I don't know what's involved with signing PDF documents.  ironclad probably has or could grow the necessary pieces
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17:13:57 <francogrex> some project like this one: http://jsignpdf.sourceforge.net/
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17:16:21 <francogrex> as I read "An electronic signature generally refers to a signature that is inputted into a text document through electronic means. The text document can then be created as a PDF by using an available PDF writer"
17:16:47 <francogrex> hmm... just that simple?
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17:17:35 <stassats> that doesn't look like cryptocraphic signing
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17:19:03 <francogrex> but would one be using a DSA like in ironclad to digitally sign a text file?
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17:45:13 <homie> hey man
17:45:28 <homie> (cube-root 27) should give me 3.0 not ?
17:45:39 <homie> but it gives me 2.999blah things
17:46:06 <pjb> homie: you need to read http://docs-pdf.sun.com/800-7895/800-7895.pdf
17:46:11 <pjb> and http://www.exploringbinary.com/the-four-stages-of-floating-point-competence/
17:46:44 <homie> the first is not found
17:46:52 <homie> but the second link works
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17:48:20 <pjb> (defun cube-root (n) (loop for r from 1 while (< (* r r r) n) finally (return r)))  (cube-root 27) => 3
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17:49:00 <homie> yiiiiiiiiiii
17:49:29 <pjb> The first one is also http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=103163
17:49:41 <pjb> Perhaps it can be found at oracle?
17:50:08 <homie> wait, i think i'll find it
17:50:23 <homie> i think i remember that from earlier even
17:50:26 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
17:50:51 <pjb> Yep http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E19957-01/806-3568/ncg_goldberg.html
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17:51:19 <pjb> Instead of floating point, you may consider real: http://www.brics.dk/~barnie/RealLib/
17:52:00 <pjb> Implement a CL package  over it exporting  mathematical operators using RealLib.
17:52:40 <maxm> you need a link checker pjb :-)
17:52:54 <maxm> bitrot affects bookmarks as well as code
17:53:06 *maxm* saves stuff I really like to keep locally
17:54:56 <pjb> In time, all urls will start with http://www.archive.org/
18:00:41 <j_king> or bit.ly
18:01:53 <homie> wth
18:01:54 <homie> lol
18:02:28 <homie> i get (cube-root 27) once 2.99... and once 3.00022... with tolerance 1/1000 and once to 1/10000
18:02:44 <homie> must have some error
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18:05:22 <stassats> i don't know how you define it, but (expt 27 1/3) is one way
18:07:20 <homie> http://paste.lisp.org/display/129893 that's the way i definded like in sicp
18:08:58 <pjb> homie: try: (defun cube-root (x) (fixed-point (average-damp (lambda (y) (/ x (square y)))) 1))
18:11:47 <homie> heh, that won't work
18:12:02 <pjb> It should.
18:12:09 <homie> gets into infinite loop
18:13:39 <pjb> So there's a bug somewhere.
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18:14:41 <pjb> homie: also don't use defun inside defun. That doesn't do what you think it does.
18:14:45 <pjb> use LABELS instead.
18:15:18 <homie> ok
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19:13:57 <rizlah> clisp site shows a lot of bug reports, is it under active development?
19:15:17 <pjb> rizlah: no. the developer is at the loo, no development since at least 14 mn.
19:15:23 <pjb> rizlah: better use another implementation.
19:16:50 <rizlah> amusing
19:17:05 <homie> bah
19:19:18 <homie> (my-sqrt 9) is giving me 65537/21845 now but (coerce (my-sqrt 9) 'float) 3.0000916f0 and (coerce (my-sqrt 9) 'double-float) and (coerce (my-sqrt 9.0) 'double-float) 3.00009155413138 both
19:19:33 <homie> pewwww
19:20:38 <pjb> Well, it's possible I guess than an algorithm using ratio never converge on the integer result, but it should go within the precision, or you have a problem.
19:20:42 <homie> sbcl --no-userinit !
19:21:10 <homie> and (setf *read-default-float-format* 'double-float)
19:21:14 <homie> only
19:21:55 <jnbek> lol pjb++
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19:23:59 <pjb> homie: actually, any algorithm computing an asymptotic limit, should never give the exact result (apart because the floating point fundamental bu), since the converging serie never reaches the limit.
19:24:35 <homie> ok, so what's the solution then ?
19:24:46 <homie> how does sbcl::sqrt do it ?
19:24:52 <pjb> homie: the solution is to read the two documents I gave you the urls above!
19:25:03 <homie> ok, i'll look there too
19:25:12 <homie> and in the numbers.lisp source
19:25:43 <pjb> You won't see much in numbers.lisp, it's hidden in the silicium implementing IEEE754.
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19:27:29 <homie> ah
19:28:21 <pjb> (defun equal-with-tolerance (a b tolerance) (or (<= a b (+ a tolerance)) (<= b a (+ b tolerance))))
19:28:41 <pjb> (equal-with-tolerance 3.0 2.99999 1/1000) => t
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19:29:33 <pjb> (equal-with-tolerance 3.0 3.000022 1/10000) => t
19:29:47 <osa1> what is a good way to check if a value is integer? (eq (type-of 123) (type-of1)) returns nil
19:29:54 <osa1> I think there are multiple integer types
19:30:05 <pjb> (integerp 42) => t
19:30:12 <osa1> oh, thanks
19:30:22 <pjb> In general: (typep 42 'integer)
19:30:45 <pjb> (not all types have a predicate).
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19:39:59 <urppo> a
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19:41:04 <homie> a what ?
19:41:30 <homie> a worm in an apple ?!
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19:44:02 <urppo> a
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19:44:33 <homie> ey
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19:55:47 <madnificent> ah
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21:27:18 <maxm> pjb: (<= (abs (- a b)) tolerance)?
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23:35:51 <Guthur> a few days ago there was a discussion about making good libraries/tools, it was broadly about document generation
23:36:49 <Guthur> there was link where someone talked about how scenario often goes that there is many developers producing 80% solutions and no one sitting down to bash out a proper 100% solution
23:36:57 <Guthur> anyone remember who that was
23:36:58 <stassats> minion: please tell Guthur about logs
23:36:59 <minion> Guthur: look at logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000)
23:37:17 <stassats> indulge yourself
23:37:24 <Guthur> stassats: I was hoping to not have to trawl through days of logs
23:37:35 <stassats> write a program then
23:38:12 <madnificent> Guthur: Harag to schmx?  (a C-r says that that's the first to mention it)
23:38:50 <stassats> [3 years later] "Guthur: i've written an NLP facility in CL and finally found what i've been looking for"
23:39:50 <pkhuong> Guthur: Olin Shivers, http://www.scsh.net/docu/post/sre.html.
23:39:58 <madnificent> stassats: i should've been silent.  it would be nice to have a good NLP facility :)
23:40:48 <Guthur> pkhuong: that's it, awesome, thanks
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23:42:14 <Guthur> madnificent: I only had a vague memory about the general discussion at the time
23:42:32 <stassats> maybe those academics with copious amounts of free time can write 100% solutions
23:42:55 <Guthur> madnificent: when I've writting the NLP facility for searching all the logs I'll let you know
23:43:07 <madnificent> Guthur: thank you
23:43:09 <pkhuong> stassats: the other option is to have long-term deadlines.
23:43:40 <madnificent> pkhuong: which, in my case, will likely just lead to slacking on the main project and doing all sorts of random stuff slightly related to the main project.
23:43:46 <stassats> Guthur: and, please, make it 100%
23:44:13 <madnificent> pkhuong: and that's a lisp 100%.  that's 100/100.  not something like 0.9999978 you can get away with!
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23:49:06 <madnificent> what, drwho quit?  oh noes, we're all gonna die
23:50:00 <Guthur> madnificent: my program might read that as the new Dr Who has quit the TV program
23:50:08 <Guthur> and you are very distressed about it
23:50:50 <Guthur> this NLP stuff is proving to be not so trivial
23:51:03 <stassats> my program will read it as "OFFTOPIC ALARM"
23:51:52 <Guthur> and then we are all really gonna die
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