00:00:13 except they won't realise it until they try :) 00:00:34 clintm [~clintm@68-26-15-174.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 00:00:59 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.5.148] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:01:02 That's what comprehensive protocol documentation is for, once I have time to update it. 00:01:29 nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:29 cmoore [~clintm@68-26-15-174.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:29 -!- clintm [~clintm@68-26-15-174.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:02:32 harish [~harish@cm108.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 00:02:41 -!- cmoore is now known as clingm 00:02:44 -!- clingm is now known as clintm 00:03:05 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.62.98] has quit [Quit: tensorpudding] 00:04:02 -!- Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-bwwehmxwfhaqicbr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:04:09 Tordek [tordek@supporter.blinkenshell.org] has joined #lisp 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00:47:04 haiii guyth 00:47:21 ith thith a chat for lithp thupport? 00:47:34 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@187.105.3.184] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:48:18 bitch, please <>, it's much more like python! 00:48:56 omg thath terrible 00:49:19 i never got bit by a python before 00:49:21 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:26 but it thounds thcary 00:50:31 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 00:54:11 -!- Attiusca [43571d79@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.87.29.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:57:07 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:00:06 Attiusca [43571d79@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.87.29.121] has joined #lisp 01:00:31 thup guyth 01:00:41 Attiusca: go away 01:00:49 ethcuthe me? 01:00:59 be stupid somewhere else 01:01:07 jutht becauthe i have a lithp 01:01:18 doethnt mean you can bothhhh me around! 01:01:20 meaniethh 01:01:26 But no functional mind. 01:01:38 functional! 01:01:44 stassats: i thought i fed the troll enough for a few minutes, come back in a few hours :) 01:02:16 ba dum tiss 01:02:47 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 01:04:15 -!- ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has left #lisp 01:09:48 -!- ebobby [~fms@38.111.144.18] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:11:07 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:12:59 bruno_coelho [~bruno_coe@177.98.94.182] has joined #lisp 01:13:27 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-106-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:02 -!- Attiusca is now known as attiusca 01:15:34 -!- attiusca is now known as Attiusca 01:16:08 -!- Attiusca [43571d79@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.87.29.121] has left #lisp 01:21:18 AlexHe [~AndChat32@60.247.127.3] has joined #lisp 01:24:34 -!- cpc26 [~Adium@fsf/member/cpc26] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:25:09 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-xjlprvgdmezanpjs] 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[Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:56:05 slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-161-110.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:43 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:59:01 I can no longer produce alexandria.info using 'make info' 02:59:12 -!- Dios| [~saywhat@dial-crgvill-66-18-180-93.adamswells.com] has left #lisp 03:00:48 Yuuhi`` [benni@p54839307.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:27 too bad nobody will know 03:02:14 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483AA2C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:05:30 stassats: comment out @include include/fun-alexandria-ensure-gethash.texinfo 03:05:40 -!- harish [~harish@119.234.74.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:05:56 #lisp is not the bug-tracker of alexandria 03:09:12 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 03:10:46 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:46 Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has joined #lisp 03:13:08 xan_ 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[~clintm@70-0-41-8.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:19 -!- smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:32:48 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ffalubsmtlfrfwjy] has joined #lisp 04:34:04 dto [~dto@pool-96-233-56-218.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:36:17 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:37:51 Siphonblast [~Siphonbla@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:39:01 -!- saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:42:44 emit [~emit@unaffiliated/emit] has joined #lisp 04:43:18 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 04:46:25 Not trying to start a flame war here, but does anyone care to share opinions on Clojure? 04:47:00 I'm asking because its underlying JVM seems more adept at handling network programming than other Lisp implementations I've seen. 04:47:03 my opinion is that it's moving too fast 04:47:11 i like some stability 04:47:31 I see. I haven't read much about it yet. I'm starting to peruse articles. 04:47:45 So far it seems nice, except for my inbred dislike for the Java language. 04:47:49 and CL haven't changed in almost 20 years 04:48:14 Have you done network programming with it, though? IOLib seems to have horrible documentation. 04:48:19 although the libraries come and go, so it's not completely stable 04:48:44 yes, i used iolib, it's just posix with some sprinkles 04:49:31 jack_rabbit: You can always ask on #clojure :) 04:49:40 That's true. 04:49:52 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 04:49:57 iolib has a tutorial which has everything you need but reference would be nice too. 04:50:00 Perhaps I'll go there next, but as I've only had exposure to Common Lisp, I thought I'd get opinions here. 04:50:46 i know of what opinion on Clojure are people in #clojure 04:50:57 :] 04:51:34 don't let anyone shape your opinions, do try it at home 04:51:35 I could suppose. I hoped to get some unbiased commentary. Blogs and articles I've seen seem heavily emotionally driven. 04:52:10 unbiased is boring 04:52:24 jack_rabbit: We have a project in ClojureScript. The problem is... nothing works. 04:52:38 it'd be "yeah, it's a language, turing complete, you can use it alright" 04:52:39 jack_rabbit: for network programming, check out 0MQ (zeromq) 04:53:13 how will zeromq help me write a non-blocking IRC-client? 04:53:32 but it isn't suitable for web server socket programming 04:53:33 jack_rabbit: Library developers don't care about compatibility, when you update your packages half of them break because they require a particular versions of other libraries which are either not in the repo anymore (download manually) or in still only in git (download manually). 04:53:45 true, i haven't seen the whole thread sorry 04:54:37 Of course you'll have to look up the required versions yourself and hope no two libraries will want different versions of one lib. 04:54:40 naryl: goes along with stassats "moving too fast" 04:54:44 yes :) 04:55:25 well, if it were not for the watchful eye of Xach, libraries in CL break all the time too 04:55:43 But ClojureScript is moving even faster than Clojure itself so it may be a bit better. 04:57:58 -!- PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:57:58 stassats: Haskell's hackage is not moderated. It *mostly* works. :) "Unfortunate" updates are quite rare. 04:58:32 "that's because our typesystem is great", a haskeller will say 04:58:38 And I don't remember a single breakage with Quicklisp, yes. 04:58:50 i do 04:59:08 I wasn't looking probably :) 04:59:43 My main frustration with CL at this point is with IOlib. I keep getting SOCKET-ADDRESS-IN-USE-ERROR when re-running my function after breaking out of it on error. 04:59:50 -!- finnrobi [~robb@notlupus.info] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:59:56 finnrobi [~robb@notlupus.info] has joined #lisp 04:59:58 Also some mysterious FFI error with casting nil to an integer. 05:00:08 did you close the socket in unwind-protect? 05:00:13 Yep. 05:00:35 jack_rabbit: You can pass :reuse-addr somewhere 05:00:44 naryl: I did that also. No dice. 05:01:10 can you paste the code? 05:01:13 PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 05:01:14 :/ 05:01:17 Sure. Give me a minute. 05:01:47 saint_cypher [~rjspotter@c-76-126-70-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:03:29 kyle_ [~kyle@c-24-13-250-216.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:04:12 http://pastebin.com/XtUDhpMp 05:04:31 -!- kyle_ [~kyle@c-24-13-250-216.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:04:35 -!- enn_ [~eli@codeanddata.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:04:35 -!- jaxtr [~vazakl@22.50.5646.static.theplanet.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:04:40 enn [~eli@codeanddata.com] has joined #lisp 05:05:02 jaxtr [~vazakl@22.50.5646.static.theplanet.com] has joined #lisp 05:05:09 -!- oGMo [~rpav@66.219.59.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:05:40 oGMo [~rpav@66.219.59.103] has joined #lisp 05:05:46 so, how do i use it? 05:06:24 Should just be (listen-on 1234) where 1234 is the port. Try accessing it via webbrowser. 05:06:40 i'm using netcat 05:06:49 so, i get # 05:07:09 and chose "ignore syscall restart" 05:07:16 and do it again, works ok 05:07:26 works, as in, listens 05:07:27 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 05:07:29 I haven't gotten that error. 05:07:44 Levenson [~Levenson@office-gw.skytel.spb.ru] has joined #lisp 05:07:47 i may have an oldish iolib 05:07:50 I'm trying to print out the HTTP get message sent in the packets. 05:07:53 let me try on laptop 05:08:02 -!- Levenson [~Levenson@office-gw.skytel.spb.ru] has left #lisp 05:08:28 and that code has some ridiculously long lines 05:09:22 Yeah, sorry. I'm still trying to figure it out. Much of it was taken directly from the iolib docs. 05:10:10 still have # 05:10:26 but, i get :EADDRINUSE after i retry it 05:10:45 so, it looks like a regression 05:11:03 -!- PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:11:08 PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 05:11:20 jack_rabbit: it should be :reuse-address 05:11:28 jack_rabbit_ [~Kyle@c-24-13-250-216.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:11:32 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:11:35 Sorry. Internet cut out. 05:11:36 -!- jack_rabbit [~Kyle@c-24-13-250-216.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:11:41 -!- jack_rabbit_ is now known as jack_rabbit 05:11:53 minion: please tell jack_rabbit about logs 05:11:53 jack_rabbit: please see logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 05:12:04 sweet. 05:13:39 Yeah. That :EADDRINUSE is my problem as well. 05:13:56 well, not anymore 05:14:19 Sorry? 05:14:30 i provided you a solution! 05:14:33 AHH! 05:14:35 Let me try. 05:14:54 select a different port first from the previous, though 05:15:27 CL-USER> (let ((Temp-list nil)) 05:15:27 (defun push-limit (a &optional (len 1)) 05:15:27 (cond ((> len (length Temp-list)) 05:15:27 (push a Temp-list)) 05:15:27 ((= len (length Temp-list)) 05:15:27 (progn 05:15:29 (push a Temp-list) 05:15:31 (butlast Temp-list)))))) 05:15:33 PUSH-LIMIT 05:15:35 CL-USER> (push-limit 2 2) 05:15:37 (2) 05:15:39 CL-USER> (push-limit 3 2) 05:15:41 (3 2) 05:15:41 stop immediately! 05:15:43 CL-USER> (push-limit 4 2) 05:15:45 (4 3) 05:15:49 CL-USER> (push-limit 5 2) 05:15:51 hello 05:16:07 wanze: you've lost your initial noob credits. 05:16:10 don't paste in the channel 05:16:15 no hello to you 05:16:40 who can help me 05:16:53 wanze: many can, but few will want 05:16:59 CL-USER> (push-limit 5 2) 05:17:00 NIL 05:17:10 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c122-107-122-25.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:17:14 I'd say you've worn out your welcome, wanze. 05:17:49 wanze: post your code at pastebin.com and then ask. 05:17:55 wanze: so, what is it supposed to do? 05:17:57 paste.lisp.org 05:18:08 http://paste.lisp.org/new 05:18:18 jack_rabbit: we use paste.lisp.org because it knows how to format common lisp 05:18:22 OK thank you guy 05:18:23 OOH! 05:18:29 H4ns: Thanks! 05:18:43 Sorry. I'm trying to sound like a pro, here. 05:18:51 well, with "format" i exaggerated a bit. but still. 05:19:11 pastebin has syntax highlighting for Common Lisp. 05:19:14 it can highlight and link to CLHS 05:19:22 there you go 05:19:43 (pastebin's CL highlighting is dismal) 05:20:16 Ha! Looking at it now. It seems to pick up "defun," "let," and "nil." 05:20:44 CL:DEFUN, CL:LET and CL:NIL 05:20:57 what do all of these symbols have in common 05:21:17 a colon? 05:21:34 Ha! 05:21:37 these symbols do not have a colon! 05:21:45 /o\ 05:22:07 I assume there's no CL:FORMAT then? 05:22:13 CL-USER(1): (mapcar 'symbol-name '(CL:DEFUN CL:LET CL:NIL)) 05:22:14 ("DEFUN" "LET" "NIL") 05:22:35 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:53 they somehow turned up together in a silly question by Quadrescence, that's the only commonality i see 05:23:04 part of CL's inbred functions/macros? 05:23:53 i will leave this as an exercise 05:23:53 stassats: Why do I have to choose a different port? 05:24:00 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.62.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:24:20 Shouldn't unwind-protect fix that. 05:24:40 Also, if the thread's gone, or moved on, or whatever, what on earth is listening on that port? 05:24:58 John McCarthy? 05:24:59 -!- milanj [~milanj_@79-101-181-135.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:25:13 jack_rabbit: you need to learn some socket programming fundamentals. 05:25:17 JMC has been garbage collected, sorry :( 05:25:24 H4ns: I suppose, so. 05:25:35 jack_rabbit: the operating system keeps the port open so that if late packets arrive for it, they can be responded to properly 05:25:57 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c122-107-122-25.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:26:00 H4ns: is there some way to explicitly close it after the fact? 05:26:01 jack_rabbit: you need to use the reuseaddr flag to be able to open the port again right away. 05:26:07 jack_rabbit: no. but see above. 05:26:22 H4ns: I used :reuse-address. No dice. 05:26:24 jack_rabbit: (reuseaddr is required to _listen_ to the port again) 05:26:37 jack_rabbit: your unwind-protect is also wrong 05:27:38 Wrong how? 05:27:52 it doesn't protect anything 05:27:57 PissedNu1lock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 05:27:59 COOL! 05:28:03 How do I fix that? 05:28:32 jack_rabbit: can you paste your code to paste.lisp.org? 05:28:38 -!- PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:28:53 jack_rabbit: then you can click on unwind-protect to pull up its documentation. maybe you'll then see how you did it wrong 05:29:18 Alrighty, I'll try that. Back in a bit. 05:29:21 jack_rabbit: the issue probably is that the listen socket is never closed, which explains why you can't open it again. 05:29:50 ("listen to it", again) 05:30:15 nikodemus [~nikodemus@37-219-147-87.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 05:32:25 Okay, makes sense. There's nothing in the cleanup form. Do I have access to the variables within (unwind-protect ?) 05:32:46 jack_rabbit: http://paste.lisp.org/display/129583#1 05:32:51 -!- PissedNu1lock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:32:51 jack_rabbit: you have access to all variables in the lexical scope of the unwind-protect, so no. 05:32:57 PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 05:32:59 I figured. 05:33:24 So the unwind-protect belongs nested farther in my structure. 05:33:35 see my paste already! 05:33:57 but see stassat's paste. i rarely use unwind-protect outside of macroexpanded code 05:34:19 xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has joined #lisp 05:34:59 jack_rabbit: whenever i need something that should be cleaned up automatically, i write a with-* macro to do that. it helps linearizing the code and keeps the non-local transfer of flow contained in the macro expansion, which makes it easier to figure out what is going on. 05:35:18 That looks much better. 05:35:36 jack_rabbit: you've been bitten by exactly that - you hoped that you put something in the cleanup code, but because the unwind-protect body contained lots of code, you could not immediately see the problem. 05:36:13 unwind-protect is like try ... finaly. 05:36:47 Seems?. un-lispy. 05:36:54 unwind-protect, that is. 05:37:42 H4ns: thanks. I'm having a look at stassats's code right now. 05:37:44 jack_rabbit: you'll learn how to use the word "lispy" less and less when you've seen more lisp code :) 05:42:17 BEAUTIFUL! 05:42:22 Thanks so much! 05:42:40 Now If I could figure out this FFI error. 05:42:46 which error? 05:43:21 FFI::FOREIGN-CALL-OUT: NIL cannot be converted to the foreign type FFI:INT 05:43:37 when does it happen? 05:43:46 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:43:47 Whenever I connect to the listening Lisp 05:44:18 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:32 I've added an :end 400 pair to the recieve-from call. 05:44:39 With no success. 05:44:40 Why does unwind-protect seem unlispy? 05:44:52 It's certainly uncpsy. 05:44:56 Not the syntax, just the nature of the way it handles flow. 05:45:12 How do you feel about catch and throw? 05:45:24 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:45:25 When using C and such, fine. 05:45:34 -!- mensch [~mensch@c-24-63-135-252.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:45:35 C doesn't have catch and throw. 05:45:40 C-derivatives. 05:45:44 C#, Java. 05:45:51 Why does it bother you in CL? 05:45:53 I guess you could call those derivatives. 05:46:10 -!- DataLinkDroid [~David@1.132.187.90] has quit [Quit: Bye] 05:46:18 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:46:22 Because it seems fundamentally different in the way it handles program flow, which is one of the reasons I enjoy it so much. 05:46:29 -!- sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:47:58 Fundamentally different to what? 05:48:13 -!- Phoodus [~foo@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:48:51 sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #lisp 05:49:09 Than the step-by-step linear thinking of those languages. It obviously exists in Lisp, but you are allowed to sort of forget that that is the way that it operates. 05:49:50 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 05:50:51 An if statement doesn't seem like If (this) Then {this} else {that}. It seems more like (if (something) then this whole thing is equal to (this) otherwise it's equal to (that)) 05:51:14 Which seems pretty fundamental. 05:51:23 you're not making sense 05:51:31 Sorry. 05:51:37 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 05:52:35 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 05:52:42 I guess my thinking is that perhaps Lisp isn't necessarily that different from any other language, but its syntax allows you to think about the problems and solutions in a different way, and that try ? catch didn't necessarily fit in with my view of what Lisp is. 05:52:52 (which is by no means correct. I am still learning) 05:53:00 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-mazaxncbbtyhrivw] has joined #lisp 05:55:53 stassats`: if is an expression (like ?:), not a statement. 05:56:20 naryl: precisely. 05:56:27 jack_rabbit: http://paste.lisp.org/display/129583#2 05:57:57 AHA! Thanks to you, I fixed mine. 05:58:03 other problems you had: reading from `socket', you need to read from the socket accept returns 05:58:05 I tried to read from teh socket. 05:58:39 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:58:54 no, you can go write the next twitter killer 05:59:05 *now 05:59:24 I'm on it. 05:59:42 Yahoo! Stores stardom awaits. 06:00:25 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 06:00:28 stassats`: I noticed you called the multiplexer. Does that create a new thread for concurrent connections? 06:00:37 no 06:01:04 i didn't call a multiplexer, i just suspend the current thread until input is available 06:01:26 Ahh. 06:01:42 you can have a timeout in it, and do some stuff in between 06:01:42 So this is still a blocking "web-service" 06:01:56 no, it's not blocking 06:02:27 What exactly is blocking, then? I thought a service had to handle all incoming connections for it to be non-blocking. 06:02:55 Unless there are too many. 06:03:01 I guess I have a length-5 queue of connections. 06:03:06 Two is not too many :) 06:03:08 well, it's just an example, you wouldn't use that paste for a web-server 06:03:15 right. 06:03:43 You would have to use the multiplexer for a webserver then. 06:03:54 iolib has event handlers 06:04:12 I'll get on that. 06:05:14 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129223098.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 06:07:48 kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-81-44.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 06:09:21 jack_rabbit: see this http://archimag.lisper.ru/tags/iolib 06:09:41 Blocking is a conditional sleep. 06:12:55 drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 06:13:56 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 06:14:08 Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has joined #lisp 06:14:28 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-233-56-218.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:15:57 tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.62.98] has joined #lisp 06:16:24 stassats`: Then that is multi-threaded? 06:16:44 no, where did you read that? 06:17:06 Just a guess. Trying to understand the multiplexer. 06:17:23 It would make sense to spawn threads to handle connections? 06:17:39 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:17:58 spawning threads is slow 06:18:02 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 06:19:16 So it uses a queue? 06:21:49 Well thanks to everyone for their help. It's 1:21 AM here so I'm off. I'm happy having read an HTTP header for today. I'll take a closer look at that code you posted tomorrow. 06:23:48 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.153.88] has joined #lisp 06:24:37 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-80-4.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:25:28 -!- jake__ [~jake@74.213.226.253] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 06:25:47 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-80-4.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:28:03 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.153.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:30:36 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@37-219-147-87.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:32:13 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@143.93.53.41] has joined #lisp 06:37:46 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 06:38:58 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 06:39:17 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:39:59 -!- jack_rabbit [~Kyle@c-24-13-250-216.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:40:26 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:40:46 metaphysician [~matrix@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 06:41:36 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 06:44:16 Radium_ [~rajesh.na@117.203.10.98] has joined #lisp 06:44:51 cymew [~cymew@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 06:47:31 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c1898.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:48:10 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 06:48:27 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 06:48:27 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 06:50:08 dropster [~Kim@port284.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 06:51:07 Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has joined #lisp 06:53:28 ur5us [~ur5us@253.194.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 06:55:21 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c1898.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:56:24 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 06:57:27 -!- arrsim` [~user@128.250.116.167] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:57:48 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:03:18 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:03:56 ccomendant [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/ccomendant] has joined #lisp 07:08:16 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@176.97.27.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:09:30 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:09:31 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.106.49.167] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:10:23 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:12:21 -!- Radium_ [~rajesh.na@117.203.10.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:14:23 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:16:17 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c122-107-122-25.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:16:32 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c122-107-122-25.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:17:27 tcr1 [~tcr@host189-2.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:18:49 vieiran [~vieiran@187.101.3.200] has joined #lisp 07:20:28 kilon [~thekilon@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 07:21:54 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:22:10 -!- metaphysician [~matrix@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:23:07 drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 07:23:14 metaphysician [~matrix@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 07:23:48 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.91] has joined #lisp 07:24:13 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:28:06 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:28:22 Kvaks [~quassel@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 07:28:42 -!- metaphysician [~matrix@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:29:04 morning 07:29:09 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c1898.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:30:06 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 07:31:59 -!- ur5us [~ur5us@253.194.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:32:50 metaphysician [~matrix@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 07:35:26 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 07:35:37 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 07:36:33 any pointers on how to customize slime's choice of colors? I can't seem to find it in the docs or the google 07:38:12 robot-beethoven: same as any other emacs mode. 07:38:28 smanek [~smanek@204.28.125.157] has joined #lisp 07:38:38 -!- metaphysician [~matrix@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:38:45 pkhuong: ah, I need to study emacs more 07:40:00 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 07:42:56 metaphysician [~matrix@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 07:43:30 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 07:43:38 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:44:00 Phoodus [~foo@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:47:34 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@2.81.210.160] has joined #lisp 07:48:50 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 07:50:35 -!- metaphysician [~matrix@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:50:51 Fantattitude [~Fanta@stm59-1-82-237-34-125.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:51:56 ahinki [~ahinki@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 08:01:31 -!- Fantattitude [~Fanta@stm59-1-82-237-34-125.fbx.proxad.net] has left #lisp 08:01:50 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.62.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:02:28 are sbcl releases significantly more stable than a current build from the git repo? 08:02:57 theoretically, they will have been tested a little bit more than any arbitrary commit 08:03:11 in practice, that depends on actual users doing some testing, which I'm not sure they do 08:03:11 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-70-135.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:03:51 ok 08:04:39 i'll just try it out then. 08:07:40 -!- smanek [~smanek@204.28.125.157] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:08:04 -!- tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:08:47 -!- arrsim [~user@2001:44b8:415c:cc01:a800:4ff:fe00:a04] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:09:34 -!- ASau` [~user@95-28-124-123.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:11:31 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:11:41 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:13:20 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-lkopwdixyzemcorw] has joined #lisp 08:14:20 tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #lisp 08:15:45 -!- yhk32 [~user@114.205.86.94] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:17:10 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 08:17:24 ASau` [~user@95-28-124-123.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 08:17:32 arrsim [~user@2001:44b8:415c:cc01:a800:4ff:fe00:a04] has joined #lisp 08:20:16 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@2.81.210.160] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 08:22:19 drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 08:24:13 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #lisp 08:28:30 -!- ASau` [~user@95-28-124-123.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:30:12 ASau [~user@95-28-124-123.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 08:36:07 cpfm [~user@114.205.86.94] has joined #lisp 08:37:33 -!- clintm [~clintm@70-0-41-8.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Quit: clintm] 08:38:06 -!- kilon [~thekilon@178.59.17.196] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:38:42 treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp 08:40:21 [6502] [58959a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.154.87] has joined #lisp 08:40:42 kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 08:41:08 <[6502]> hello. Is "(defmacro compile-time (x) `',(eval x))" nonsense? 08:42:18 <[6502]> the idea is about having something similar to #. but for macroexpansion time 08:44:25 -!- edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: No hope] 08:44:55 Is it possible to get DEFSTRUCT-like indentation without using &BODY with SLIME and my own DEF-like forms? 08:45:20 -!- jrockway_ [jrockway@itchy.jrock.us] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:45:50 jrockway [jrockway@itchy.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 08:46:00 <[6502]> Quadrescence: what is the bad part of using &body ? 08:46:05 [6502]: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) X) will do that if that expression is in toplevel position 08:46:23 To me, &BODY is semantically like a PROGN. 08:46:30 no 08:47:04 Quadrescence: to me, it is the same as &rest 08:47:27 Quadrescence: only that it potentially tells the editor how to indent the arguments as a body 08:47:30 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:47:51 -!- xan_ [~xan@p4244-ipbffx02marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:47:52 <[6502]> tcr1: the idea of compile time is for example for fixed tables that you can precompute inplace in the function without having to declare them at toplevel or without having to create a specific macro for that 08:48:12 H4ns, Indeed, CLHS glossary says this is true; they are equivalent, but are permitted to be treated differently (e.g., for syntax) 08:48:30 there's no semantically difference to &body; if you are trying to say it indicates such semantics to you as a reader, then I'd suggest to change your reading comprehension. 08:48:31 And it tells the user that it maybe should contain code. While &rest implies data. 08:48:44 naryl: ? 08:49:00 I build a lambda form at runtime, and want to (compile NIL my-form). that works for ordinary (lambda), but not for closures. 08:49:26 tcr1, I am not asserting there are different semantics. There are not. I am just saying I prefer to use &BODY when what I mean, as a programmer, is a semantically PROGN-like form. 08:49:44 is there a simpler way than wrapping a (lambda () (let () (lambda...))) and FUNCALLing the compiled result to get my closure? 08:50:00 (that sentence was a little grammatically tangled, but I hope you understand) 08:50:17 <[6502]> flip214: why not just (let (...) (lambda ...)) ? 08:50:38 [6502]: because SBCL says that this is not allowed for (COMPILE) 08:50:45 Quadrescence: I suggest to use &body when you want a (*any*) macro body that is indented by 2 spaces. &rest if you want the macro look more like a function call. 08:51:01 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:51:10 tcr1, okay 08:51:18 hmmmm, now I don't get an error ... but I did a few days ago ... 08:51:26 sorry, have to investigate what I did change. 08:51:31 thanks 08:51:58 [6502]: no, my test now was wrong. 08:52:10 sbcl says "Not a valid lambda expression: (LET ...)" 08:52:53 hi 08:53:07 sbcl nreverse function also have a problem 08:53:22 -!- treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:53:27 wanze: it is not sbcl that has the problem 08:53:33 wanze, try using REVERSE, see if it fixes it 08:53:36 wanze: rule of thumb: don't use nreverse. 08:53:40 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 08:54:24 i use the nreverse and it not like the clisp did and the list is modified unexpected 08:54:44 [6502]: Side effects in a macro expansion is bad style. Also see http://trittweiler.blogspot.de/2009/01/just-moment-ago-i-was-able-to-dig-out.html 08:54:45 wanze, try using REVERSE, see if it fixes it 08:54:51 wanze: you need to read a basic text introducing you to lisp. 08:55:12 o i use the nbutlast and my problem fixed 08:55:17 Quadrescence: it probably does not because he expects nreverse to modify the binding 08:55:34 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:55:40 treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp 08:56:00 H4ns, :) 08:56:42 wanze: another rule of thumb: sbcl has no bugs. 08:57:58 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 08:58:14 pretty big thumb 08:58:17 H4ns: SBCL crashes when I remove (declaim (optimize (debug 3))) from the top of a file. Is it a feature? ;) 08:58:34 (wil report) 08:58:34 antonv [2e35c32a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.42] has joined #lisp 08:58:43 tcr1: i'm giving you that rule. naryl: and you neither :) 08:58:46 http://paste.lisp.org/display/129587 08:59:05 the code i have paste in the website 08:59:15 heh. i won my psychic debugging badge for the day 08:59:22 hey look, NREVERSEing a quoted list! 08:59:41 wanze: what you've pasted is completely expected. 08:59:55 zfx [~zfx@109.174.157.242] has joined #lisp 09:00:00 wanze: you should read an intro to lisp 09:00:27 wanze: that's similar to «const char a[]="test"; a[0]='b';» in C - modifying "read-only" memory 09:00:39 but the clisp is return the (a b c) 09:00:45 wanze: nreverse is free to modify the data pointed to by its argument and *return* the result. 09:00:55 <[6502]> tcnr1: i don't expect to use compile-time for anything impure... i was just wondering if it was a crazy idea to implement that (possibily because it was already there). Apparently it's present only for toplevel however... 09:01:09 wanze: nreverse should return '(c b a) in sbcl too. But it doesn't put it back into lst. 09:01:14 wanze: nreverse _may_ modify the list, but it is not required to. 09:01:31 yes i know i am a fresh lisper 09:01:40 wanze: if you want lst to contain the reversed list, use (setf lst (nreverse lst)) 09:02:04 drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 09:02:15 -!- zfx [~zfx@109.174.157.242] has quit [Changing host] 09:02:15 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 09:02:29 wanze: you do need to read in introduction to list first. we cannot explain the basics here. 09:02:30 [6502]: macro forms can be expanded multiple times. 09:02:53 wanze: to lisP 09:03:13 benny` [~benny@i577A8062.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 09:04:30 OK 09:05:57 <[6502]> rebuild finished... back to work (may be I'll buy a slower computer :-D) 09:06:13 -!- [6502] [58959a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.154.87] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:10:41 H4ns: bknr-datastore was listed as an updated project in the new quicklisp dist update, is it newer than the one on github? 09:11:34 robot-beethoven: i don't think so - i have not committed anything recently. 09:12:32 H4ns: also, if it is not too secret, why is it called 'bknr'? 09:13:15 robot-beethoven: it comes from baikonour - bknr is a launchpad for lisp satellites 09:13:44 robot-beethoven: when we invented the names, we were lisp newbies and planning for universe domination. 09:14:10 "omg this is so fucking great we'll rule the world!1elf" 09:14:27 that did not quite work out, but meh :) 09:15:09 H4ns: Why? You did monpolise the persistent in-memory DB market. ;) 09:15:37 naryl: i hear "market" 09:16:12 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 09:22:02 hitecnologys [~noname@46.233.207.250] has joined #lisp 09:23:23 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-81-44.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:25:18 arcanis [~Mael@tui75-h01-31-33-44-141.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 09:27:49 kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-93-79.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 09:28:40 Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has joined #lisp 09:29:55 -!- Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has left #lisp 09:30:25 -!- borkman [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 09:40:27 -!- treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:41:21 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 09:43:40 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 09:46:50 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.214.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:48:02 b_ [~b@cpc3-acto3-2-0-cust505.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:48:40 treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp 09:51:31 Hello, does anyone know if elephant supports optimistic concurrency control? It is almost no locking, and my transaction fails if objects are of newer version 09:53:03 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@143.93.53.41] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:57:24 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:57:44 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:01:33 b__ [~b@cpc3-acto3-2-0-cust505.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:05:16 -!- b__ [~b@cpc3-acto3-2-0-cust505.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:05:19 -!- b_ [~b@cpc3-acto3-2-0-cust505.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:06:04 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-mnxghaxsowukgtug] has joined #lisp 10:06:34 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:08:14 -!- Siphonblast [~Siphonbla@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:09:00 AlexHe [~AndChat32@60.247.127.3] has joined #lisp 10:09:49 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has quit [Client Quit] 12:19:37 ticking [~janpaulbu@80.187.111.108] has joined #lisp 12:20:14 hey, I was just wondering is there a non-reader-macro equivalent of quasiquote? 12:21:06 ticking: you mean APPEND, LIST and LIST*? 12:21:45 jdz, so that is what ` is turned into? Feels like there is a missing step of abstraction in there to me ^^ 12:21:49 -!- fukushima [~fukushima@z128.124-44-151.ppp.wakwak.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 12:22:02 yes, it is that sort of thing 12:22:17 if you want to work at the data level, you might want SUBST instead 12:22:22 -!- ski [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:22:31 ticking: you can write a macro. 12:23:08 (let ((x 42) (z '(0 0 0))) (backquote a b (unquote x) d (splice-unquote z))) --> (a b 42 d 0 0 0) 12:23:27 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:23:31 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:24:04 ski [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:24:08 pjb: yeah that would be the macro I was looking for, weird it doesn't exist 12:24:12 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:24:22 wztian [~wztian@219.153.126.129] has joined #lisp 12:24:37 ticking: it's because it's much much easier to write (append '(a b) (list x) '(d) z) 12:24:40 -!- AlexHe [~AndChat32@60.247.127.3] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:24:44 notice how shorter it is! 12:25:03 point taken 12:25:11 thanks :D 12:26:02 AlexHe [~AndChat32@60.247.127.3] has joined #lisp 12:26:04 -!- AlexHe [~AndChat32@60.247.127.3] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:26:22 kvsari [~kvsari@119-173-226-83.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:30:03 schmx [~marcus@c83-254-190-169.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:30:07 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@80.187.111.108] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 12:35:04 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053008213.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 12:35:33 -!- ski [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:37:21 ski [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:37:41 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:39:22 -!- wztian [~wztian@219.153.126.129] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 12:39:53 -!- xyxu [~Adium@58.41.12.190] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:41:00 wztian [~wztian@219.153.126.129] has joined #lisp 12:41:12 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-236-45.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 12:41:13 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-236-45.vodafone.hu] has quit [Changing host] 12:41:13 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 12:43:08 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-142-60.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:45:30 -!- wztian [~wztian@219.153.126.129] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 12:45:31 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:55 wztian [~wztian@219.153.126.129] has joined #lisp 12:47:29 -!- abeaumont [~Alfredo@90.165.165.246] has quit [] 12:48:22 -!- s6502 [~user@31.25.101.47] has left #lisp 12:51:06 ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #lisp 12:54:59 antgreen [~user@CPEf0def1ad1e4e-CM0019477f82fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 12:55:33 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has quit [Client Quit] 12:57:55 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:58:06 abeaumont [~Alfredo@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 13:00:05 -!- wztian [~wztian@219.153.126.129] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 13:00:38 dekuked [~user@pool-72-74-50-53.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:40 ls 13:00:41 -!- antonv [2e35c32a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.42] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:01:02 dekuked: 13:01:24 wztian [~wztian@219.153.126.129] has joined #lisp 13:03:04 # 13:04:25 a whole cascade of errors! 13:06:44 what pisses me off about firefox is that it draws its own blinking cursor, and sometimes it keeps blinking even when other window has focus 13:07:21 so you think you in firefox window, while actually typing into diff one.. And its hard to see the tiny border with stumpwm 13:07:58 maxm-: which program does not draw its own cursor? 13:09:46 maxm-: change borders 13:10:16 even my 1px-wide is good enough with bright red 13:10:44 jdz: now that I'm thinking about it, it probably is toolkit whos drawing it.. I still have win32 concepts embedded in the brain somewhere 13:10:55 typing in the wrong window is half the problem (except when tying passwords); pressing C-w, on the other hand... 13:11:03 -!- wztian [~wztian@219.153.126.129] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 13:11:31 wztian [~wztian@219.153.126.129] has joined #lisp 13:11:36 Kryztof: in the code that I'm writing: Yes, I can take care to not use the non-proper class name as a type specifier. 13:12:06 I'm just wondering how/whether there is a portable way to use a such a "second" class name in a way that it feels like a proper name. And from this theoretical perspective, workarounds obviously don't count as an answer. 13:14:08 -!- arcane [~Mael@tui75-h01-31-33-44-141.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:14:44 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:17:00 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-182-9.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:17:02 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:19:13 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-182-9.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:20:01 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-142-60.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:21:02 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129223098.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 13:22:12 xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has joined #lisp 13:23:09 -!- wztian [~wztian@219.153.126.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:23:57 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:24:25 edgar-rft [~me@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 13:25:32 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:26:17 mathrick [~mathrick@128.65.76.22] has joined #lisp 13:31:40 cfdm [~user@114.205.86.94] has joined #lisp 13:32:00 ciaranb [~user@w-110.cust-9805.ip.static.uno.uk.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:02 is this normal?: https://gist.github.com/2769086 (just compiled sbcl 1.0.57) 13:34:36 lichtblau: probably sbcl's promotion of the non-proper-name to a typename is wrong 13:38:21 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:45 also, what does this mean?: https://gist.github.com/2769120 13:42:27 dekuked: did you read install instructions? 13:42:51 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 13:44:27 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129223098.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:44:30 nope, just did and fixed it 13:45:52 maxm-: easily fixed. C-h f cursor-blink RET C-x o TAB RET and modify the program! 13:50:50 -!- kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 13:54:10 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:56:12 lony [~lony@hoas-fe3ddd00-245.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 13:56:49 -!- ski [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:57:05 shizzy0 [~user@132.198.144.230] has joined #lisp 13:57:46 -!- lony [~lony@hoas-fe3ddd00-245.dhcp.inet.fi] has left #lisp 14:02:15 I'm trying to follow this: http://xach.livejournal.com/278047.html but I don't understand the difference between package.lisp and the asd 14:02:42 ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #lisp 14:02:57 dekuked: what comes to your mind when you hear "package.lisp"? 14:03:14 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:04:01 a debian package? 14:04:01 ski [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:05:05 dekuked: package.lisp is just a source file which usually contains the definitions of namespaces (called packages in CL). 14:05:35 dekuked: notice it's not package.debian, it's package.lisp. Try again. 14:05:36 -!- ahinki [~ahinki@212.99.10.150] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 13.0/20120509070325]] 14:06:10 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 14:06:14 mensch [~mensch@c-24-63-135-252.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:50 dekuked: and what comes to you mind when you hear "asd" file? 14:06:59 -!- shizzy0 [~user@132.198.144.230] has left #lisp 14:07:18 pjb: What's wrong with "debian package" coming to his mind before his eyes see ".lisp"? :] 14:07:24 ponies 14:07:41 naryl: the fact that it's the wrong answer. 14:07:54 so the asd file is just a list of dependencies, but the package defines the interface for anything interacting with my code? 14:07:57 that we're in #lisp, not in #debian. 14:08:08 dekuked: dependencies between what? 14:08:24 *naryl* never liked exams 14:08:30 between my project and what quicklisp put on my system? 14:08:40 Not mainly. 14:08:57 It's mainly the dependencies between the files of your system. 14:09:03 dekuked: http://common-lisp.net/~mmommer/asdf-howto.shtml 14:09:14 Now, how many times does the word "package" appear in my previous sencence? 14:09:32 s/nc/nt/ 14:09:43 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:09:46 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@dsl5401CBFB.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 14:09:47 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@dsl5401CBFB.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Changing host] 14:09:47 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:12:27 dekuked: come on, this is an easy question. Give me an integer!? 14:12:29 -!- ski [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:12:50 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.214.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:14:17 ski [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:15:12 dekuked makes me think of clotaire in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnmTuyCF0Xs&feature=related (1:35 in). 14:15:55 But I'm not sure about the end 14:16:28 -!- BeLucid [~belucid@cpe-066-057-057-247.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:16:50 -!- DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:18:22 -!- ski [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:19:52 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-182-9.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:20:33 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@128.65.76.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:21:02 -!- xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:22:21 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.5.148] has joined #lisp 14:23:56 uh... so you want me to say how many times you said package? 14:24:11 In the sentence "It's mainly the dependencies between the files of your system.", yes. 14:24:20 0? 14:24:23 RIght! 14:24:38 So it looks like there's nothing in common between a package.lisp and a asd file. 14:24:52 And indeed, that's two things entirely unrelated. 14:24:57 ski [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:25:12 The definition of systems and dependencies between files, has nothing to do with the definition of lisp packages. 14:26:09 So the difference between package.lisp and asd is package.lisp and the difference between asd and package.lisp is asd. 14:26:28 okay I'm really lost 14:26:49 Why? 14:26:52 but I'll just read this for now: http://common-lisp.net/~mmommer/asdf-howto.shtml 14:27:04 BeLucid [~belucid@cpe-066-057-057-247.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:27:30 -!- dropster1 [~Kim@port284.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:27:32 I'm not sure; I think I need to read a bit more and make sure I get the basics 14:27:36 dekuked: in that example, they want to read the asdf:defsystem form in the cow-asd package. 14:27:39 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 14:27:48 pjb: but thank you very much 14:28:10 is it a poor example? 14:28:29 dekuked: notice how in the fourth defsystem form, they name the modules by simple symbols: circulation, respiratory. 14:28:39 DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #lisp 14:29:07 If they were reading that defsystem form in a random package, that would intern symbols named "CIRCULATION" and "RESPIRATORY" in that random package. 14:29:19 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-lkopwdixyzemcorw] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:29:27 If they used keywords, :circulation :respiratory, that would intern them in the keyword package. 14:29:45 If the used strings, they would have to put double-quotes around. 14:29:46 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:30:09 If they used uninterned symbols, they would have to prefix them with #: 14:30:23 For some reason the author don't like those solutions, and prefer to define a package to intern those symbols there. 14:30:30 -!- joast [~rick@98.145.85.206] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:31:13 Now, one may took advantage of the fact that asd files are read with the CL:LOAD function, and therefore can contain any lisp form, to put there some functions that would be used by asd; for example, you could define methods for non standard targets. 14:31:16 -!- ski [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:32:08 ski [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:32:12 But I'd say you should have a really good reason to do that, and that in general, asd files should just contain a single (asdf:defsystem ) form with no simple symbols (use strings, keywords or uninterned symbols), so that it can read in any random package. 14:32:55 (they also use the symbol cow as name of the defsystem, same here, you could use a keyword, uninterned symbol or a string instead). 14:33:47 I think I got some of that. I don't understand uninterned symbols; it seems like you declare them in the package? and why would you declare them as uninterned instead of simply not declaring anything? 14:34:19 Symbols are not declared, they're read, and interned in the current package if they're not qualified. 14:34:41 The #: dispatching reader macro reads a symbol names and makes a symbol that's not interned anywhere. 14:35:15 (read-from-string "#;zz") returns the same kind of object as (make-symbol "ZZ"). 14:35:28 (read-from-string "#:zz") returns the same kind of object as (make-symbol "ZZ"). 14:35:40 oh no, #; has returned. 14:35:56 no, just a typo. 14:36:07 Perhaps it's a good reason to reject #; 14:36:16 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:36:31 Nah, just joking, emacs can fontify #;. 14:36:41 that would be a pretty funny error to keep running into. 14:36:42 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-182-9.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:36:53 "I am clearly passing it 4 arguments. SBCL must be insane." 14:37:50 -!- DaDaDOSPrompt [~DaDaDOSPr@63-231-108-178.clsp.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:38:43 so #: forces an interned symbol not to override another? that sounds like what I thought gensym did? 14:40:16 dekuked: #: doesn't intern any symbol. 14:40:37 Just like gensym doesn't intern any symbol either. 14:40:43 #: is read-time gensym. 14:41:07 make it make-symbol 14:41:10 -!- Skola [~Skola@89.184.179.185] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:41:41 pjb: well I definitely have a better understanding. thank you! 14:41:42 I made it but it didn't seem to peg 14:41:57 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:42:13 dekuked: now, your system may contain files that define lisp packages. Zero, one or more. 14:42:35 dekuked: and often, systems don't intern symbols in packages defined in other systems. 14:43:05 dekuked: but this may happen, nothing prevents you to define two systems, and to have one depend on the other hand intern new symbols in a package defined by files loaded by the first. 14:47:41 wait are you talking about circular interning? 14:48:19 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:50:03 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ffalubsmtlfrfwjy] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:50:50 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:50:59 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:52:29 morning 14:52:41 -!- xan_ [~xan@pc1.sakuravod-unet.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:53:03 xan_ [~xan@pc1.sakuravod-unet.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:54:20 clintm [~clintm@184-193-166-255.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 14:55:54 dekuked: mais qu'est ce donc? "circular interning"??? 14:56:34 pjb: on the other... hand? 14:58:29 -!- kvsari [~kvsari@119-173-226-83.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:59:19 -!- cymew [~cymew@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:00:11 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-tnfvopbvkjdjnwkb] has joined #lisp 15:00:34 -!- clintm [~clintm@184-193-166-255.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Quit: clintm] 15:01:07 joast [~rick@98.145.85.206] has joined #lisp 15:04:01 milanj [~milanj_@79-101-181-135.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:11:42 -!- ocharles_ [u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dtzijtphjrrhkzlg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:11:42 -!- SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xgcwypxlbrtsvqhq] has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 15:11:55 -!- NimeshNeema [u2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wfnersqsupvjmyak] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:12:23 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:14:28 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:16 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 15:16:14 ocharles_ [u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wdvfsptihsycxios] has joined #lisp 15:17:19 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 15:17:28 Greetings lispers 15:20:11 Greetings! 15:28:58 heffalumpen [~emperor@183.78.34.56] has joined #lisp 15:30:28 jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:47 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:30:56 NimeshNeema [u2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bhowkmemutjvzdiu] has joined #lisp 15:31:03 I'm on mountain lion, with sbcl 1.0.57 and quicklisp. Starting hunchentoot causes slime to hang. I have :sb-thread in *features*  any ideas? 15:32:12 -!- jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:32:12 heffalumpen: oh... I think I know what this is about. nikodemus or stassats` are probably the best suited to tell you know on which end to fix the deadlock. 15:32:33 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:32:33 heffalumpen: can you try and get a backtrace? 15:32:37 ZabaQ [~jconnors@85.207.11.34] has joined #lisp 15:32:38 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:32:55 how would I get a backtrace? 15:33:01 C-c C-c. 15:33:22 or M-x slime-list-threads and some keypress (d, iirc) 15:33:56 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:34:32 pkhuong: is that for the same reason that loading cl-gd in slime on osx causes sbcl to crash since recently? 15:34:37 heffalumpen: it might be wise to disable threads (might require you to recompile) though. as there's been some work on that 15:34:42 List threads shows an empty buffer 15:35:08 H4ns: probably not. Hard crashes on OS X, i tend to blame on the darwin's strange initial-thread fetish ;) 15:35:32 pkhuong: yeah, that's what stassats said and switching slime to :fd-server helped. 15:35:35 Slime hangs - I can type into the buffer, but no reply 15:35:40 there has been a certain amount of modifications to slime in pursuit of the nirvana of no-deadlock reasonable-deadline stream stuff 15:35:52 so we probably need to know which variant of slime you're using too 15:36:04 (by "we" I mean "not me"; I'm still on a stone-age version) 15:36:07 Also webserver stops responding to http requests while this hang is going on 15:36:07 H4ns: I load and run that stuff from *inferior-lisp* 15:36:13 so yes, looks like a deadlock 15:36:25 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-35-219-85.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:29 pkhuong: workable, but not exactly convenient 15:36:43 H4ns: with an interrupt-thread hack (: 15:37:18 heffalumpen: maybe it's because ML is so buggy? 15:37:24 Ah: found it 15:37:38 switching to inferior-lisp* shows it has entered LDB 15:37:50 mach_port_allocate_name failed with return_code 5 15:37:56 b_ [~b@cpc3-acto3-2-0-cust505.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 15:38:00 fatal error in SBCL pid etc 15:38:03 oh, nope, new one. 15:38:30 Does anyone know a simple and easy-to-learn GUI framework for lisp? 15:38:47 hitecnologys: the one you already know. 15:38:50 granted - I'm on just a git pull version of sbcl 15:38:59 hitecnologys: what GUI framework do you already know> 15:39:00 ?> 15:39:02 not a stable version 15:39:22 hitecnologys: people here seem to be having a lot of fun with CommonQt. LTk looked pretty easy to use for simple stuff last time I looked. 15:39:25 pjb: only GTK+ and Tk. 15:39:35 Then use GTK. 15:39:46 is there a performance difference in optimized slot access between (defmethod bar ((x foo)) (with-slots (...) x)) and (defun bar (x) (declare (foo x)) (with-slots (...) x)) 15:39:46 15:39:48 I would stay away from the framework written in C++. 15:39:48 in sbcl? 15:40:10 hitecnologys: http://www.cliki.net/Gtk 15:40:31 pkhuong, pjb: Thanks. I'll look on it. 15:40:33 *maxm-* is refactoring and some of the methods are only methods coz I fingers typed defmethod instead of function 15:40:40 maxm-: I would expect the defmethod one to be faster 15:41:17 heffalumpen: #define KERN_FAILURE 5... Got to love descriptive error codes. 15:41:45 hmm, so basically if one wants efficient slot access its better to write methods, even if there are no other reasons to make code a method? 15:41:58 maxm-: use reader functions. 15:42:06 pkhuong: Hmmm Any way to get more info out of LDB? 15:42:32 heffalumpen: which slime are you using? the latest? 15:42:35 heffalumpen: not really. This is mach being coy. There's exactly one code path where this can happen in SBCL. 15:43:27 slyrus: Tried with both cvs head, and the one in the latest quicklisp 15:43:31 might be time to review that hack now that no one is supporting 10.2 anymore. 15:43:58 (which is slime-20120407) 15:44:16 well in my use case its the function/method itself is called in-frequently, but does a lot of stuff inside, so I'll just leave them as methods as converting from with-slots to reader/writer will be somewhat of chore 15:44:18 and if you start from the shell, do you see the same problem? 15:45:06 hello, i am building my first lisp webapp using cl-cont and hunchentoot but now stuck on best way to persist data, i looked at rucksack,cl-prevalence,elephant, but now i see lisp can save images 15:45:08 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:45:10 core images 15:45:36 is this a good way to go? 15:45:47 SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-unamagtogkbjjbdg] has joined #lisp 15:45:52 Honestly, I persist my data by way of postgresql. 15:46:13 lisppaste just dumps stuff to the disk as xml files. 15:46:21 I tried loading around 5k products csv using elephant clsql postgres 15:46:24 b_: I've been using elephant, up until now. Suddenly it won't compile any more... 15:46:33 it kept running, and disk grinding 15:46:35 :( 15:46:38 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:46:46 and i did same with rucksack, and it took only few seconds 15:47:07 b_: elephant is fastest with berkley backend I believe 15:47:09 but rucksack seems not stable enough :( i get unexplained erros 15:47:34 berk has licensing issues? 15:47:42 i havent gone into details 15:47:51 b_: I'm trying out cl-redis at the moment 15:48:06 b_: Not sure what to recommend yet though 15:48:15 yes its simple enough 15:48:25 jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:26 i really like the idea of prevalence 15:48:37 having memory as database 15:49:03 so no need of anything else but cl-prevalence , bit of pain to wrap everything with transactions stuff 15:49:06 I'm a git newbie - how would I list tags and check out a stable version of sbcl? 15:49:12 but saving core image is awesome if it works 15:49:18 I really don't. I far prefer spinning metal platters. 15:49:37 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:49:55 nyef: but you can restore yourself , prevalence does store to disk 15:50:02 b_: tried postmodern? 15:50:21 If you do try postmodern, I recommend avoiding the DAO class stuff. 15:50:28 with elephant .. didnt build, missing some asdfs stuff , so gave up 15:50:40 b_: also, that entirely depends on if you're doing a single transaction of 5k different insert commands or something more sophisticated, the best speed wise being COPY 15:50:57 *nyef* checks to see if the skin has regrown on his fingers yet from having tried to use the DAOs in a real project. 15:51:31 b_: This is the most sane solution I've seen so far: http://datomic.com/datomic-whitepaper.html 15:51:31 single transaction containing a loop inside, but elephant turned them into lot more with keyss going in a single table 15:51:37 nyef: ? 15:51:39 and it didnt finish for my patience 15:51:53 checking 15:52:11 nyef: can you elaborate? I might be using postmodern in anger very soon 15:52:14 mrbrown [~andy@82-196-173-37.bb.systeamnat.se] has joined #lisp 15:52:28 b_: loop with several insert containing each multiple values is often best if you're not using copy, say 100 to 1000 values per insert 15:52:42 The DAOs don't cope well with an evolving schema, and there are distinct problems as soon as you start needing to do operations over multiple tables or with unusual query semantics. 15:54:35 nyef: istr finding DAOs actually useful for -writing- 15:54:46 datomic is something i cant use right now.. 15:54:57 Right now I've got one DAO class that I just don't use the built-in query stuff for, I have a set of functions to do various queries, apply suitable sort options and whatnot, box up the fields into DAO class instances, and return them. The only reason it's still on a DAO class is, yes, insert and update semantics. 15:55:00 -!- Harag [~phil@dsl-244-50-247.telkomadsl.co.za] has left #lisp 15:55:01 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 15:55:03 i am a java programmer trying to get my cto to use lisp :( i need to show him a working model heheh 15:55:28 BitRunes [~ghost@2001:da8:d800:101:216:d3ff:feae:1b91] has joined #lisp 15:55:32 On the other hand, the update semantic is essentially "just write out all of the fields", not "write out the changed fields". 15:56:38 -!- b_ [~b@cpc3-acto3-2-0-cust505.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:57:08 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:57:14 b_ [~b@cpc3-acto3-2-0-cust505.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 15:57:40 b_: I used ABCL and hibernate to please my boss 15:58:34 *maxm-* had been using cl-store to write blobs of stuff to disk 15:58:43 multi-gb blobs worked just fine 15:59:04 mm 15:59:28 altho linux kind of sucks when background vm threads start writing to disk, sometimes opening a file on the same filesystem may take a minute or so 15:59:38 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c122-107-122-25.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:59:56 very much depends on filesystem, it was much worse on reiser3 and xfs then on ext4 16:00:18 b_, what is the problem you are trying to solve in your working model? 16:00:48 persistence, i have a incoming orders queue 16:00:53 from ecom systems 16:01:12 i need to order the items for the suppliers and then assign deliveries to the orders 16:01:16 ah making moneys with lisp, my favorite topic :-) 16:01:17 then pick n pack and ship the orders 16:01:31 i will not let data bloat 16:01:33 Harag [~phil@dsl-244-50-247.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:01:37 i will drop the shipped orders from memory 16:01:52 I am solving a very similar problem at the moment (stock control and order processing), and I use postmodern quite happily without the DAO stuff. 16:02:04 so i expect only around ~2-3k orders a day 16:02:43 Yeah, some of our objects only have insert semantics and a couple of permitted state transitions. No point using a DAO or anything for them, just provide a function for the insert and separate functions for the state transitions. 16:02:44 hmm , i better look again at postmodern i guess 16:03:18 That means we just have a class to cover the output serialization when we have to display them to a user. 16:03:26 there is a layer of queries written using S-SQL, and the business logic is mostly making calls to those queries. I express a lot of constraints in the database schema and handle violations in calling code. 16:03:37 generally it depends on expected volume.. I would start with a simple abstractions, using whetever is fastest to write. Ie dump to disk as text files or cl-store or such 16:04:00 define a good protocol using generics, and put/get/enqueue/dequeue operations, then write simplest possible implementation 16:04:11 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:05:25 then continue to develop, once you hit serious size, change implementation to SQL db.. If you start to hit really serious volume, you may consider commercial solution such as IBM's MQ 16:05:46 which integrates with JMS and basically every other transactional queuing system out there 16:06:31 this might be stupid q: so i have these orders, orderitems,products classes defined (i am trying to learn clos), and i use postmodern, write sql queries and write code to fill clos 16:06:36 that is terrible advice if you want to use a SQL database. you want to avoid unitary access if you can write a query to do work directly. 16:06:39 which i use elsewhere in the app 16:06:47 Yeah, we've got a couple cases where we catch a constraint violation and do something intelligent with it. 16:07:51 nyef, I submitted a patch for postmodern that makes it easier to get the name of the constraint that was violated. (not sure why every SQL library in the world doesnt have that.) 16:08:20 free advice, use or not :-) generally concept of queues meshes badly with SQL, its easy to write yourself into a problematic solution.. So I prefer queue-oriented interface for queue-type tasks 16:08:55 it wont be free advice if it fucks his project up. 16:09:00 with PostgreSQL, consider PGQ if you're problem is about queueing events to process later 16:09:15 it comes with Skytools from Skype 16:09:18 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-mazaxncbbtyhrivw] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:09:38 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 16:09:46 I'm a user of PGQ and a fan, it's easy to add a consumer (think worker) support for CL, it already exists for python and php 16:09:58 I also find that I've needed to do things that S-SQL just won't do. Or needed to pass fragments of S-SQL around between functions for various things (query constraints and sort orders come to mind here). 16:10:40 nyef, what limitations have you experienced? personally, lack of WITH support is a little problematic, but I might well write/submit a patch for that. 16:10:43 so noone recommends saving lisp core images and just using main memory :-) 16:10:55 pgq contains nice tricks that make queuing work with a database. 16:11:04 WITH was a big one, yes. 16:11:14 This here : http://newartisans.com/2007/11/running-common-lisp-behind-apache/ seems to recommend 16:11:16 b_: i do, but i haven't seen the context 16:11:28 http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/PGQ_Tutorial contains some info to add pgq consumer support to CL (or others) 16:11:35 but not by saving core images 16:11:38 b_, I wouldnt, no. you get quite a lot of headache removed with a good SQL DBMS. 16:11:48 And the number of times I've done (:raw (format nil "~{, ~A~}" (mapcar #'s-sql:sql-compile )))... 16:11:54 of course, there are other associated headaches, but nothing is perfect. 16:11:56 read also http://kaiv.wordpress.com/2007/10/19/skytools-database-scripting-framework-pgq/ 16:12:11 :( oh this sql to my language mapping its just this disconnect, i have always hated 16:12:15 i thought lisp would rescue me 16:12:57 live objects in memory and long term storage with constrained usually are two different things 16:13:08 (And I've got a couple of keyword parameters that default to (:raw "")...) 16:13:12 b_: hmm, just define arbitrary structures you like.. serialize them with cl-store. Write into simple tables with id: whatever; data :blob 16:13:14 b_: s-sql doesn't appear to be comprehensive, it grows when somebody decides to use some missing feature and adds a patch 16:13:30 get over it. most real projects end up having to interact with so many foreign systems that its worthless pretending everything can be perfectly mapped. 16:13:53 you'll have to do indexing by hand tho 16:13:56 nyef, yeah, that can be annoying, but I have been lucky enough to avoid most of those little bits and bobs. 16:14:48 Mmm. On the whole, I'd hate to not have postmodern, but there are still problems. 16:14:58 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 16:15:12 zfx: how? 16:15:24 nyef, I would prefer something that turns a relational algebraic expression into SQL queries, as some other languages have. 16:15:32 Oh, what was another example? Extending postmodern to support new data types is a pain as well. 16:15:38 but I am currently too stupid and busy to port one over. 16:16:02 b_, how what? 16:16:42 I'm fairly sure there's a massive hole in our postgis integration, but as we haven't hit it recently and are too busy with other stuff, I haven't managed to track it down and figure out what, if anything, there is to do about it. 16:16:43 oops sorry, i thought u meant u avoided sql store headaches 16:17:40 nyef, the issue we're facing at the moment is deciding how we're going to keep our postgres data largely in sync with a solr index. 16:18:13 Yeah, I can't help you there, I'm afraid. 16:18:26 thought maybe a combination of pg streaming replication and some code to glue solr and LISTEN/NOTIFY together would be a good 80% solution. 16:20:07 -!- jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:21:00 b_, for what it's worth, I barely use clos in this project, so if I were you, I wouldn't lose sleep over mapping between sql and clos. keep it simple. 16:21:24 pnq [~nick@AC8136AC.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 16:21:49 Yeah, our CLOS objects are mostly value holders here. We very occasionally have a generic function that does something "clever" with them. 16:22:04 thanks, i am going to think about cl-store approach, yes i was happing when i began the project just using simple structs and list 16:22:33 i got fascinated will all this persitent clas mop stuff 16:22:40 We could possibly get away with just using hash tables instead, but having the named fields is more self-documenting. 16:23:20 yes 16:23:38 I have found clos mostly useful for dealing with foreign systems. e.g. abstracting over multiple product catalogs with a product protocol. 16:23:41 nyef: I found that hu.dwim.perec has pretty good support for "uncommon" queries, though it's not ideal (like any ORM) 16:23:51 -!- ccomendant [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/ccomendant] has left #lisp 16:24:19 metaphysician [~matrix@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 16:24:44 b_, define your goal clearly. if you want to show your boss that you can achieve something useful in CL, maybe that's not the best time to masturbate over transparent persistence and metaclasses. 16:25:23 nyef: about concurrency, as various pickers can start working on the same order 16:25:28 we dont want them to step on each other 16:26:20 zfx: again, see about PGQ in Skytools, if solr can do incremental updates you will love that 16:26:24 guess app will have to check in transaction itself if read data still holds 16:26:46 dim, will take a look. 16:26:55 going to work on this, thank you all )) 16:27:10 b_, right now, we use a simple allocation system and the pg transaction mechanism to do order-picker assignment. 16:27:17 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-142-60.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:27:25 if two pickers try to allocate the same order to themselves, only one will win. 16:27:43 zfx: ask further questions on #postgresql if you want to, I might answer them there and it would be a tad less off-topic, unless you want to write cl-pgq, where I could help you too, maybe :) 16:27:49 but see dim's comments on PGQ. 16:28:05 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.153.88] has joined #lisp 16:28:09 dim, I would love to, but I'm only here for a few minutes more. perhaps some other time. 16:28:44 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-142-60.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:28:45 [SLB] [~slabua@87.13.170.192] has joined #lisp 16:28:45 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@87.13.170.192] has quit [Changing host] 16:28:45 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 16:28:55 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 16:29:12 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-35-219-85.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:29:13 -!- ciaranb [~user@w-110.cust-9805.ip.static.uno.uk.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:29:44 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:29:58 hehe, ok 16:32:32 -!- metaphysician [~matrix@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:32:39 -!- jjkola [~jjkola@xdsl-83-150-83-66.nebulazone.fi] has 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joined #lisp 16:51:32 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has joined #lisp 16:51:45 <[6502]> the road to lisp survey template on ALU is a broken link. Is this intentional? 16:52:04 who are you asking? 16:52:29 <[6502]> stassats: who are you asking? 16:52:36 very funny 16:53:12 <[6502]> stassats: :-) ... no idea indeed. I just saw the broken link and I thought that may be (may be) someone involved in ALU is on #lisp 16:54:45 i don't think so 16:56:35 -!- metaphysician is now known as Guest92207 16:56:45 metaphys1cian [~matrix@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 16:58:04 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:58:22 -!- Guest92207 [~matrix@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:59:14 gigamonkey, maybe? 16:59:23 <[6502]> may be the broken link is just one of the twelve official challenges to overcome to approach lisp (and sort of reminds broken dependencies in libraries... before quicklisp, that is) 16:59:48 pkhuong: i don't think he's involved with the site 16:59:48 -!- metaphys1cian is now known as metaphysician 17:00:01 alu is mostly irrelevant nowadays 17:00:03 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:00:11 -!- sporous [~sporous@antispammeta/bot/irssi/sporous] has quit [Disconnected by services] 17:00:17 Look, the ALU is still showing McCarthy on the lisp.org site with no link to anything else on the site. 17:00:23 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:00:24 sporous [~sporous@antispammeta/bot/irssi/sporous] has joined #lisp 17:00:44 <[6502]> good to konw :-) 17:00:48 <[6502]> know 17:00:57 And I have nothing to do with the ALU any more. I was briefly on the board but it was terrible. 17:01:09 -!- g0 [~mc@www14045u.sakura.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:01:14 Hey, me too! :P 17:02:39 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@173-14-133-149-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:02:43 <[6502]> tools->deleted articles is funny :-) 17:03:17 -!- yates [~user@nc-71-48-9-61.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:04:19 The link works for me. Someone must have fixed it. Or ebkac. 17:05:36 pkhuong: I got slime+hunchentoot working again by reverting to the sbcl 1.0.56 git tag 17:06:02 SBCL says "not a lambda form" If I try (compile nil '(let () (lambda ...)))) ... is there some easy way? 17:06:22 easy way? 17:06:27 <[6502]> ChibaPet: you mean the "click here" on the page http://wiki.alu.org/The%20Road%20to%20Lisp%20Questions ? 17:06:32 flip214: pass a lambda form. 17:06:33 easy way of doing what? 17:06:40 of course it works by wrapping a lambda around and (funcall) ing it to gett he closure 17:07:08 I'd like to compile a closure 17:07:08 flip214: well there you go. 17:07:31 [6502]: I welt to alu.org, clicked "ALU Wiki", and clicked "The Road To Lisp Survey". 17:07:36 why do you want to COMPILE it? 17:09:43 Oh, indeed, "article not found". I wasn't looking where you were. Sorry for the noise. 17:09:52 -!- metaphysician [~matrix@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:09:52 stassats: mostly to build the form at runtime, and thencall it. 17:10:19 why do you want to build it at runtime? 17:10:38 -!- bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:10:50 Won't it be compiled by FUNCTION? 17:10:54 in SBCL 17:11:11 naryl: that's nonsense 17:11:12 naryl: the 70's called. 17:11:24 flip214: it's the surrounding let that worries me. You do realize that anything that goes in there is a literal value, right? 17:11:58 compiling at run-time is usually a bad idea 17:12:08 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:12:24 pkhuong: you lost me there. what's bad about eg. a counter, ie. (let ((c 0)) (lambda () (incf c))) ? 17:12:39 flip214: you can't COMPILE that form. 17:13:00 i can, but i won't tell how 17:13:14 and putting that in a (COMPILE)? 17:13:25 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has joined #lisp 17:13:34 rethink your algorithm without using run-time compilation 17:13:44 pkhuong: yes, that's the problem. I can wrap int in another lambda and funcall that to get the "real" closure. 17:13:48 how about (let ((c 0)) (compile nil (lambda () ...))) 17:13:53 flip214: yes. What's wrong with that? 17:14:00 kpreid: null lexical when compiling 17:14:01 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 17:14:04 kpreid: we're not required to support that. 17:14:06 stassats: no quote :-) 17:14:20 kpreid: then what's the point? 17:14:22 Hm, I don't see that in the spec. 17:14:28 stassats: er...you're right 17:14:29 kpreid: although it's a no op on the default settings. 17:15:15 flip214: I think you might get more willing-to-go-along answers if you explained what your application for run-time compilation is. 17:15:52 ISF [~ivan@187.106.49.167] has joined #lisp 17:15:56 -!- heffalumpen [~emperor@183.78.34.56] has quit [Quit: heffalumpen] 17:16:28 I just don't understand why you've found the solution (wrap it in a lambda to make it a lambda form, and just funcall if needed) and are still asking how to do it. 17:16:45 smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:01 pkhuong: just want to know whether there's an easier way. 17:17:07 <[6502]> pkhuong: is it guaranteed that a closure coming out from a compiled function is a compiled one? 17:17:27 [6502]: yes, but you might not have the same definition of "compiled" as the specification. 17:18:19 n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@188.19.213.196] has joined #lisp 17:18:25 <[6502]> pkhuong: you mean about coalesced values? 17:18:53 flip214: I don't see what's difficult about this. The spec is clear to me "a lambda expression or a function." and makes a lot of sense: COMPILE compiles, it doesn't evaluate. 17:19:05 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 17:19:14 clhs 3.2.2.2 17:19:15 Minimal Compilation: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bbb.htm 17:19:26 <[6502]> pkhuong: Indeed clisp allows a let over lambda form in compile... 17:20:08 pkhuong: well, thank you very much. 17:20:09 [6502]: so do certain branches of SBCL. It's not required by the spec, but certainly allowed. 17:20:17 *[6502]* hates compiling 17:20:37 [6502]: like assembling better? 17:21:07 <[6502]> flip214: I love compile-only implementations 17:22:08 -!- BitRunes [~ghost@2001:da8:d800:101:216:d3ff:feae:1b91] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:22:22 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 17:23:06 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8136AC.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:23:07 <[6502]> flip214: It's the compiling explicit step that I find annoying and logically complex 17:24:38 booyaa` [~booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:18 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:48 -!- ZabaQ [~jconnors@85.207.11.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:30:58 <[6502]> In CL when macroexpansion takes place the passed in arguments may have been already in part or totally macroexpanded or not... is this correct? 17:31:29 not 17:31:53 <[6502]> stassats: they are guaranteed to not having been macroexpanded (yet)? 17:32:05 yes 17:32:26 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:50 tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.62.98] has joined #lisp 17:33:10 the guarantee is stronger; they are guaranted not to have been processed by the file compiler 17:33:12 <[6502]> stassats: ok ... looks nicer. But there is no full-macroexpander function (only fully macroexpands the first level form)... right ? 17:33:28 most implementation export a function called macroexpand-all 17:34:08 You might be looking for the concept that is called "code walking" 17:35:23 <[6502]> tcr1: I was just wondering why all the freedom about when and how many times a macroexpansion can be performed 17:35:40 n1nt4tsn0k|1 [~nitnatsno@178.47.30.175] has joined #lisp 17:35:57 there is no freedom when processed compile-file 17:36:01 by 17:37:32 zfx [~zfx@host86-166-247-216.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:37:38 -!- zfx [~zfx@host86-166-247-216.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:37:45 <[6502]> stassats: you mean an implementation is not free to call each macroexpansion twice just for the fun of it? In minimal compilation I see restriction about the result, not about how many times macroexpansion has been called... 17:38:08 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@188.19.213.196] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:38:43 6502: just make sure macroexpansion is idempotent. 17:39:02 zfx [~zfx@host86-166-247-216.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:39:08 -!- zfx [~zfx@host86-166-247-216.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:39:55 [6502]: the standard doesn't specify many things, so what? 17:41:47 so what did you mean by there's no freedom when processed by compile-file? 17:41:47 <[6502]> stassats: nothing. I was wondering why CL was so strong underlining this freedom for the implementer (that imposes restrictions on programmers). With a well specified macroexpansion order one could also rely more on macro side effects... 17:41:47 6502: what do you REALLY want? 17:42:03 <[6502]> Fare: understand :-) 17:42:14 [6502]: Because macro expansion can happen at arbitrary times. 17:42:17 bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 17:42:17 because the standard was made as a compromise between existing implementers of existing implementations 17:42:41 [6502]: E.g. done by the IDE. Or during run-time (multiple times in fact in case of an interpreter. 17:42:44 ahh it's a wonderful day 17:42:45 you can still rely on these side effects - kind of 17:43:06 now that ASDF has :around-compile hooks, I plan to make molicles more useful. 17:43:10 [6502]: I wouldn't want to deal with side effects in macros. Neither did the peoplw ho relied on separate compilation for large projects in Franz Lisp, I expect. 17:43:30 pkhuong, at ITA already, we have some and it's hell 17:43:40 Happily, I have a solution: molicles 17:44:21 i.e. your macros maintain some state. But this state MUST be flushed before the end of the file, or you'll get an error after compilation 17:44:37 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-153-3.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 17:45:21 so you can defer declaration of ancillary functions, types, classes, etc. - and it will all be there, guaranteed, by the end of file 17:46:28 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-153-3.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:46:39 zfx- [~zfx@host86-166-247-216.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:47:01 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.83] has joined #lisp 17:48:56 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:51:57 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:54:20 -!- cpc261 [~Adium@50-52-234-17.drr01.drhm.nc.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:54:39 jlongster [~user@pool-108-4-74-122.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:52 kilon [~kilon@188.4.88.62.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 17:55:08 -!- [6502] [58959a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.154.87] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:55:21 -!- smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:55:49 smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:31 cpc26 [~Adium@50-52-234-17.drr01.drhm.nc.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:32 -!- cpc26 [~Adium@50-52-234-17.drr01.drhm.nc.frontiernet.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:56:32 cpc26 [~Adium@fsf/member/cpc26] has joined #lisp 17:58:14 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 17:58:24 -!- smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:58:49 smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:50 -!- smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:00:05 smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:11 ticking [~janpaulbu@p5B3D3FC2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:34 janpaulbultmann [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #lisp 18:03:29 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 18:03:50 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:04:42 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-153-3.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 18:06:03 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@p5B3D3FC2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:06:21 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 18:06:55 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:21 -!- bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has quit [] 18:09:14 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-153-3.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:09:17 flip214: (funcall (compile nil (lambda () (let ((x 0)) (lambda () (incf x)))))) 18:09:53 flip214: (funcall (compile nil '(lambda () (let ((x 0)) (lambda () (incf x)))))) ; I mean 18:11:50 m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.172] has joined #lisp 18:19:00 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 18:22:19 -!- xan_ [~xan@pc1.sakuravod-unet.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:22:39 nikodemus [~nikodemus@37-219-147-87.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 18:23:21 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:09 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.226.129] has joined #lisp 18:25:52 antonv [5d7d3142@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.66] has joined #lisp 18:25:53 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:38 paul0 [~paul0@189.115.62.71] has joined #lisp 18:27:56 sigh. Naming that type "chebyshev" must be my worst design this afternoon, typo-wise. 18:28:58 *design decision 18:29:10 Matt_S_G [~matts@gateway/tor-sasl/mattsg/x-78535695] has joined #lisp 18:31:33 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 18:32:05 abbreviate it to cheb 18:32:34 bichou 18:32:36 I like chebysh. 18:32:38 ebw``` [~user@krlh-4d034a94.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:00 "Save me, chebysh!" 18:33:37 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-142-60.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:35:04 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-142-60.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:35:43 -!- zfx- [~zfx@host86-166-247-216.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Be back later] 18:36:05 -!- ebw`` [~user@krlh-4d021f9a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:36:12 -!- janpaulbultmann [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 18:36:13 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-142-60.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:37:39 ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #lisp 18:39:54 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-142-60.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:44:41 rvirding [u5943@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-obazenzrvkutafmw] has joined #lisp 18:45:02 -!- rvirding [u5943@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-obazenzrvkutafmw] has quit [Client Quit] 18:46:25 rvirding [u5943@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mpqxwkdrbckynblt] has joined #lisp 18:46:48 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:48:03 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.226.129] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 18:56:28 Is there a reason that there is no #'lexical-symbol-value? 18:56:52 bobbysmith007: yes, because it's dumb. 18:56:52 because it's the same as symbol 18:57:02 (defmacro lexical-symbol-value (x) x) 18:57:23 lexical variables only exist at compile time 18:57:49 so it doesn't make sense to access them by name at run-time 18:57:55 pjb: I can obviously do it with macros, just seems odd there is nothing that lets me get a value for a given name 18:58:21 bobbysmith007: because there's no name at that point in time 19:00:01 bobbysmith007: because either the name is known at compilation time, then you can just write it, or it is not, then you can just write (ecase name (x x) (y y)) 19:01:26 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:33 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:02:08 I ask because i have a common pattern of iterating over a bunch of local variables and I need to do something slightly different on one (eg supply an optional parameter) I often do this by iterating over both the names and values and caseing the names... I can do this with a macro easily, just seems like the runtime could make that accessible directly 19:02:10 bobbysmith007: that said there are implementation specific features, either generalized access to the lexical environments, or debugging introspection tools. 19:03:27 such as: (iter (for (name value) in (vars a b c)) (fn value (eq name 'a))) 19:04:31 what are you really trying to do? 19:05:12 stassats: thats actually just a simplified version of the code I am actually writing. I need to display a bunch of local values formated as currency in a table cell (for html output) 19:05:21 one of these cells needs to have a note in it as well 19:06:32 then rethink your approach 19:06:43 thats what I am trying to do 19:06:49 the loop and fn were already written, I can split it into two loops with a statement in the middle for that columns special rendering, but often its easier to just pass that note as an optional param to the td function 19:08:24 clintm [~clintm@001e52f0de2b.click-network.com] has joined #lisp 19:08:37 Thats more directly the code I am using, though it elides all the variable bindings: http://paste.lisp.org/display/129594 19:08:50 zfx [~zfx@host86-166-247-216.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:09:40 it seems like I am fighting the system to achieve this, but I am not sure what the better alternative to this pattern is 19:10:31 I can make an object, put the variables in there then loop over the slots, getting slot-values, but that seems like more work than what I came up with already 19:10:53 have you considered using alists or plists? 19:11:41 thats pretty much what I did with the vars macro (though I used list instead of cons) 19:11:43 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.62.98] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:11:47 tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.56.163.219] has joined #lisp 19:12:29 it jsut seemed like a hoop to jump through when obviously the local environment has the key->value association occuring without my explicitly restarting it 19:12:57 the lexical environment only exists at compile-time 19:13:04 accept that fact 19:13:54 either way thanks for the input, Im just sahmadi seeking 19:14:29 or use the kernel language 19:14:43 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:15:13 stassats: is that necessary or just the current state of things... EG: could CLtL3 include runtime access to lexical environments, or is there some consideration that prevents this 19:15:38 it is necessary to get fast programs 19:16:06 stassats: not necessarily... It makes things a lot harder though 19:19:52 is next-method-p expansive in typical implementation or not really? in sbcl or ccl? 19:20:11 expansive? 19:20:19 bobbysmith007: iterating over several variables is a sign you're not using the right data structure: vector. 19:20:22 zophy [~zophy__@24.220.134.125] has joined #lisp 19:20:36 Noise, especially if you're going to be calling the next-method. 19:20:42 Otherwise, if you can justify it, just write the macro, they're here for that. 19:21:01 typo I meant expensive (as in slower then having an empty catchall method 19:21:25 maxm-: you can check it 19:21:51 thought some sbcl dev would know from top of their head 19:22:58 araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has joined #lisp 19:22:58 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has quit [Changing host] 19:22:59 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 19:23:03 hmm macroexpanding it seems its not expansive at all and aliased to T 19:23:35 macroexpanding what? 19:23:39 defmethod 19:24:13 maxm-: I think pkhuong's last response was directed to you 19:24:16 sexxygirl [sexxygirl@89.122.16.54] has joined #lisp 19:24:41 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:25:16 -!- sexxygirl [sexxygirl@89.122.16.54] has quit [] 19:25:28 pjb: thanks again for the input 19:25:32 ah cool, missed it.. thanks pkhuong.. In fact it going to save me some time, as I'm replacing empty catchall methods with (or (and (next-method-p) (call-next-method)) (...more specific computation)) 19:25:36 maxm-: what do you mean "aliased to t"? 19:26:33 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 19:26:56 stassats: folded into the T constant, unless I'm mis-reading the expansion of sb-pcl::%defmethod-expander 19:27:12 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-86-234.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 19:27:31 anyhow, i expect (and (next-method-p) (call-next-method)) to be faster than actually calling the method 19:28:21 hutch_ [~hutch@bl16-210-148.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 19:28:27 maxm-: yes, you're misreading, it cannot be folded to any constant because methods can be added and removed at run-time 19:29:16 -!- hutch_ [~hutch@bl16-210-148.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 19:30:52 DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-122-201.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:22 -!- saint_cypher [~rjspotter@c-76-126-70-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:32:54 -!- antgreen [~user@CPEf0def1ad1e4e-CM0019477f82fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:36:44 it would have been nice if there was some kind of hint by which you could 'close' a generic function. in that case it would have been possible to inline the calls. 19:38:36 madnificent: a closed generic function is called a function. 19:38:38 pnq [~nick@ACA23BD1.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 19:38:43 Use defun instead of defmethod! 19:38:46 madnificent: that's called sealing 19:39:14 stassats: thanks 19:43:08 [6502] [5e24fc3e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.252.62] has joined #lisp 19:43:14 -!- Yuuhi`` [benni@p54839307.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:44:35 pkhuong: you worked on sealing? any links about it? 19:45:26 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:45:55 -!- Urchin [~urchin@unaffiliated/urchin] has left #lisp 19:47:33 <[6502]> Is it considered bad style to have a macro that copies an input form multiple times (even if it's going to be evaluated only once) ? I'm thinking about consequences if the input form contains other macros that will be macroexpanded possibily more times. Given that macros should be "pure" and that CL doesn't ensure macroexpansion will happen only once anyway is it acceptable? 19:48:15 [6502]: i don't understand your question 19:48:23 <[6502]> ensure->guarantees 19:49:01 what does "copying an input form" mean? 19:49:20 <[6502]> stassats: suppose (defmacro foo (x y) `(if (,x) ,y ,y)) 19:50:27 well, your code will be twice as large 19:50:29 <[6502]> stassats: y is going to be evaluated only once, and in correct "natural" order, but it appears twice in macroexpansion. So any contained macro will be (probably) macroexpanded twice... 19:50:52 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-58-231.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:51:56 Yuuhi [benni@p54839307.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:04 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:53:15 i don't know why are you worried about macroexpansions and not about the size of the resulting code 19:53:15 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 19:53:29 <[6502]> stassats: (defmacro foo2 (x y) (let ((f (gensym))) `(labels ((,f () ,y)) (if ,x ,f ,f))) wouldn't have the problem. I was wondering if foo2 approach is considered customary 19:53:40 <[6502]> ,f -> (,f) 19:54:16 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-7-79.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:54:39 I'd use flet rather than labels. 19:54:47 <[6502]> stassats: I'm just thinking to the macroexpansion problem in general... and I never found this kind of "abuse" listed when discussing macros (the only listed problems are about hygiene and evaluation order/count) 19:54:57 And indeed, if you expect a lot of code it may be good to do that. 19:56:45 ASau` [~user@95-26-251-179.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 19:57:26 [6502]: you can even declare your flet inline to defer to the compiler the choice. 19:58:59 <[6502]> pjb: i thought that a compiler was free to share the code anyway... also flet/label names are not exported so I don't understand what an inline/noninline declaration would buy 19:59:15 [6502]: More advanced ways to get a macro wrong are usually correct expanding into implicit block named NIL and tagbody for iteration macros, or the correct handling of declarations. 19:59:15 exported? 19:59:25 [6502]: so the compiler can inline the local function! 20:00:02 <[6502]> pjb: yes... even if you don't tell it to 20:00:27 -!- ASau [~user@95-28-124-123.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:00:33 i don't understand your question, what does exported means in regards to flet/label names? 20:00:41 you can declare inline local functions 20:00:43 <[6502]> stassats: you cannot rebind #'foo ... only global functions. So inline/non-inline is (IIUC) a decision the compiler can take freely 20:00:48 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 20:00:52 ? 20:01:15 [6502]: the compiler can take decisions about global functions as well 20:01:42 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 20:01:42 <[6502]> stassats: yes... but they have semantic implications. For lexical functions they have no semantic implications 20:01:55 what semantic implications? 20:02:30 <[6502]> stassats: if I call (setf (symbol-function 'foo) ...) and the function has been inlined the already compiled function will not see the change 20:02:45 I don't think a lot of compilers take the initiative to inline functions if you don't declaim it. 20:02:52 [6502]: well, the standard is explicit that you can't do that 20:03:18 -!- blitz_` [~blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:03:43 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.153.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:03:49 <[6502]> pjb: you say that like if it's a good thing... 20:04:19 <[6502]> stassats: global functions cannot be set to somnething else? 20:04:22 well, it let you choose. 20:04:43 clhs 3.2.2.3 20:04:43 Semantic Constraints: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bbc.htm 20:04:50 [6502]: but even if it did, it would have to keep the semantics: ie. it would have a duplicate bound to the symbol fslot. 20:05:28 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:06:15 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has quit [Quit: #WeeChat #Mises #emacs] 20:06:24 Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has joined #lisp 20:07:35 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:07:41 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:08:08 graspee [~graspee@02dd1c10.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 20:08:26 <[6502]> wow... so (foo) is guaranteed to call a new installed version only when invoked from other files, unless it's explicitly declared notinline... 20:08:42 -!- zophy [~zophy__@24.220.134.125] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:08:52 modulo with-compilation-unit 20:10:19 -!- Matt_S_G [~matts@gateway/tor-sasl/mattsg/x-78535695] has quit [Quit: Matt_S_G] 20:11:31 <[6502]> all lisp smoothness looks quite rough when seen from close enough ... 20:12:28 But then, nothing prevents you to make a lisp implementation that is only a subset or a superset of the CL language. 20:13:15 I've never understood why that doesn't happen more often, especially considering it would be so readily prototyped on top of an existing implementation. 20:13:33 it happens all the time 20:13:40 <[6502]> pjb: hehehe... i did, and even if it's only 0.0001% of CL it's already a mess :-D ... 20:13:43 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:14:05 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 20:14:11 some newbie decides he knows how to make lisp better and crafts ludicrous reader-macros and macros 20:14:52 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:15:11 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:15:31 stassats: I'm thinking more along the lines of a serious effort at something like CLtLx or such. Something to address all of the so-called "warts". All I ever see is talk, no one ever just does something. 20:15:44 the real problem with designing a better common lips like language is that you continuously stumble on little marbles in common lisp itself, so you realize that you just can't make a new language yet. you know too little. the problem with some of the modern languages which arose seems to be similar. they would've been much better if they really learned from lisp from the start. 20:16:08 <[6502]> stassats: many of those rough edges of CL are not there for any real logical reason, except that the standard dates back to '80s and that's what people put on the table 20:16:16 ThomasH: no one wants to break with the standard, i think. and the effort used to be huge, which scares others. 20:16:56 I'd like to point out that if someone were successful in making a better common lisp, they wouldn't be in this channel, talking about common lisp 20:17:11 <[6502]> madnificent: CL is amazing, but not perfect. This is of course OK. There is no way to make it better however... 20:17:19 dlowe: perhaps not if it were a successor 20:17:41 i don't care about warts or whatever you call it, as long they don't keep changing under my feet 20:18:15 i know it's naive of me probably but I still think you could take scheme, add the "actually useful" stuff from CL into it, brand it as a new standard, and bam, there you go 20:18:29 You've described Racket 20:18:43 graspee: if you make it a lisp-2 ok. 20:18:46 but I still like lisp-2s 20:18:47 graspee: GARRR! That's what I'm talking about, Go. Do. It. 20:18:48 it's not branded as a new standard though 20:18:50 graspee: :-) 20:19:02 i don't have the ability 20:19:13 ThomasH: you're all talk as well :) 20:19:14 i don't see how scheme would make a better common lisp 20:19:24 no innocent parties around here 20:19:31 i would have the ability maybe to make it as a language that would work, but it wouldn't be in any way optimal, and no-one would ever make it a standard 20:19:32 graspee: Start with LiSP, then write a bunch of your own, then the ability will magically be there ;) 20:19:34 graspee: lisp-1 vs. lisp-2 is really the most fundamental difference between the scheme and CL ecosystems. 20:19:45 <[6502]> i like lisp-2 more too. even if I don't really completely understand why 20:19:53 graspee: notice you easily you can use elisp code in CL or CL code in elisp. 20:19:57 CL also has dynamic scoping as an option 20:20:06 graspee: notice how easily you can use lelisp code in scheme or scheme code in vlisp. 20:20:11 dlowe: Hah! I have been making an honest effort to put action over blabbing, though. 20:20:25 well i used to use CL and recently i started learning scheme 20:20:48 *madnificent* would love to help out, but knows he has too much to learn to seriously help in CLtLx. he could only read and say what he dislikes. 20:21:05 and scheme to me seems somehow more pure and worthy, but also more floppy and useless in the standard version, which leads to incompatible non-standard stuff each implementation does 20:21:18 graspee: that's not to say that one cannot take some pleasure writing scheme code. I think the problem comes when you want to do real things or when you have to port scheme code from one implementation to the other. 20:21:26 jonaskoelker [~jonas@d58c5bd2.rev.dansknet.dk] has joined #lisp 20:21:27 oh no, again this "scheme is pure" bullshit 20:21:38 can we keep it civil? 20:21:43 if not i'm going to go 20:21:49 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.5.148] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:21:56 also, I hate this list-length verctor-length string-length bullshit. 20:21:58 graspee: scheme is theoretically simpler. sadly, the world isn't theoretic. common lisp tends to be dirtier, but it's a better tool to work with. 20:22:05 pjb: exactly 20:22:45 i prefer a single namespcae 20:22:49 i don't 20:22:50 graspee: if you're going to talk about scheme, you can go indeed 20:22:51 graspee: assume scheme to be a very pretty on-display engine, with no oil in it. common lisp is the same engine, but with oil in it. the oil is ugly, it's filthy, but it makes the engine work better. 20:23:04 scheme is lisp? the channel is not called #commonlisp is it? 20:23:05 graspee: you can use a single package. Some projects do that. 20:23:06 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.5.148] has joined #lisp 20:23:11 i work in many languages and almost all of them use a single namespace and it's horrifying how much yak shaving it causes 20:23:16 graspee: see topic 20:23:21 graspee: It is a CL channel, however. 20:23:28 graspee: but you should be in #scheme for scheme nonetheless. this is common lisp :) 20:23:34 My head just imploded from crappy analogy overload. 20:23:35 ok then but there's no need for stassats' rudeness 20:23:45 graspee: Agreed. 20:23:51 j_king: Ever abuse that single namespace to declare something as a function in a header, and as an instantiated anonymous structure in a source file? 20:24:00 [6502]_ [5e24fc3e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.252.62] has joined #lisp 20:24:01 graspee: but I can tell you that it's a PITA when you have to move modules. You don't know what is what in a single namespace. I have the problem currently with mcl with puts everything in the ccl package. 20:24:02 surely we can talk about different languages without it turning into bloods vs crips or whatever 20:24:08 rudeness where? 20:24:16 if you can't see it, i can't help you 20:24:25 " oh no, again this "scheme is pure" bullshit" I think 20:24:28 graspee: if you stay in the cl-user package, you don't really use multiple packages, do you? 20:24:28 *nyef* was very naughty back when he was a C programmer. Laying out assembly code like that. 20:24:38 On the other hand, there are some applications that are compiled with CL, but that are actually written in a mini-scheme implemented in CL :-) 20:24:40 nyef: oh gawd, it was you! ;) 20:24:41 jonaskoelker: i don't see rudeness, unless you're extremely touchy 20:24:51 jonaskoelker: he knows. he's just saying he doesn't think it's rude to tell people to go away 20:24:52 stassats: It's pretty clearly rude. 20:25:20 stassats: oh no, again this "I see no rudeness" bullshit 20:25:23 jonaskoelker: it's #lisp. sadly, you have to adjust your rudeness threshold :/ 20:25:25 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:25:54 hey, what does everybody think about OCaml? ;-) 20:26:04 never used it 20:26:12 irc is anti-social networking. rudeness is on the tin 20:26:15 substitute "bullshit" with "nonsense", if it makes you feel better 20:26:16 -!- [6502] [5e24fc3e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.252.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:26:16 -!- antonv [5d7d3142@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:26:30 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 20:26:49 stassats: it's not like I'm offended by it, but I think you may be coming off as dismissive without wanting to even give the other side a fair shot 20:27:18 people might be offended by your implying "I don't want to listen to you" 20:27:22 just a thought... 20:27:28 jonaskoelker: "pure" is arbitrary, you can't define, so it's pointless 20:27:36 i made it clear it was just my opinion 20:27:43 i didn't present it as an objective fact 20:27:48 <[6502]_> i only said that when seen from close enough CL looks much rougher than one may suspect... it's probably a consequence of being used for real world applications 20:27:53 <[6502]_> real world is a mess 20:28:14 you don't say... 20:28:17 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:28:25 *nyef* looks at his desk. 20:28:28 any decent scheme implementation has that same roughness too i think 20:28:30 Yup, the real world is a mess. 20:28:35 because they are designed to be used 20:28:38 lol @ nyef 20:28:45 my real world is messy too ;) 20:28:47 nyef: Nooooooo! 20:29:11 <[6502]_> graspee: I mean that CL *standard* is a mess, even excluding implementations 20:29:22 <[6502]_> not a mess 20:29:24 <[6502]_> rough 20:29:37 has anyone here tried clojure? If so, what do y'all think about it? 20:29:47 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:29:54 [6502]_: careful with such wrong words, you might offend somebody! 20:29:58 s/wrong/strong/ 20:30:14 <[6502]_> jonaskoelker: I found a few of the syntax changes offensive, for no reason... e.g. space/comma equivalence, tilde reuse with different meaning... 20:30:37 remind me of the tilde situation again? 20:30:48 there's #clojure 20:30:54 ... 20:30:58 jonaskoelker: there is no reason to make another lisp that doesn't contain the strong points of what we had. clojure as a language has, in my opinion, no reason to exist. 20:31:07 btw, 6502, is that the number of the chip in the terminator? 20:31:08 jonaskoelker: ugh, clojure. I'm assured it's the only lisp-like language I'll get close to at work. I did a project in it, it's not nearly as good as CL 20:31:09 <[6502]_> jonaskoelker: isn't clojure equivalent to CL comma? may be I don't remember it right 20:31:10 jonaskoelker: also, )])) what the? ] ?! 20:31:15 are you some sort of "on-topic or gtfo" nazi, stassats ? 20:31:24 i don't see an @ by your name 20:31:27 <[6502]_> jonaskoelker: yes.. :-) ... and in Apple ][ (my first computer) 20:31:38 [6502]_, once again, what's the GOAL? 20:31:43 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o fe[nl]ix 20:31:49 graspee: no, he's a seasoned member of #lisp, and he makes many good remarks 20:31:51 graspee: beware. people here get ops when they need it only. 20:31:51 graspee: off-topic stuff is noisy for regulars, and no one holds on to ops here. 20:32:14 fe[nl]ix: graspee hasn't been trolling all around, he's been offended 20:32:28 snearch [~snearch@f053008213.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:32:53 graspee: the regulars in the channel care a great deal about on-topicness 20:32:54 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o fe[nl]ix 20:32:58 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA23BD1.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:33:03 graspee: You have to realize that nothing you've typed here hasn't been typed before. Go check the logs, this is a tired topic. 20:33:04 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:33:15 incf ThomasH 20:33:17 rpg [~rpg@c-98-229-120-236.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:19 pnq [~nick@ACA23BD1.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 20:33:25 do you seriously expect newcomers to read tons of logs before speaking? 20:33:44 do you really expect to be this original? 20:33:47 i want to see tangible discussions about Common Lisp, not some abstract thoughts on neighbouring languages and technologies, that is all 20:33:49 and ehu on-topicness is good, but to the point of not mentioning other languages in the lisp family? 20:34:02 graspee: yes 20:34:04 graspee: It doesn't hurt. 20:34:06 that's crazy 20:34:10 graspee: i agree with you that it doesn't make much sense in other languages that change just about every 2 years. but we have a standard of over 20 years old. it makes sense to perform a google query first :) 20:34:11 <[6502]_> Fare: for me? understanding more .... most of CL compilation-related stuff is quite alien for me for example 20:34:16 graspee: #scheme is --> that way 20:34:25 graspee: I think it's generally expected in many communities for newbies to lurk more and talk less. 20:34:27 lots of space to discuss scheme. 20:34:30 ok. i can see i'm not welcome 20:34:32 (#(+ 1 %) graspee) 20:34:42 graspee: please understand that whilst you're asking a question, others spend time answering it. you lose time twice. :) 20:34:43 you might want to re-think your attitude to newcomers 20:34:59 graspee: Stick around and learn. It's useful spending time reading here. 20:35:01 and ehu and stassats go fuck yourselves 20:35:02 cunts 20:35:04 -!- graspee [~graspee@02dd1c10.bb.sky.com] has left #lisp 20:35:10 *ThomasH* chuckles 20:35:11 he mad 20:35:14 Or, perhaps not then. 20:35:23 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053008213.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 20:35:33 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584440.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:35:40 hmm. logged out of irc entirely. 20:35:46 too bad. 20:35:46 tbh, I found graspee's point about reading logs quite sensible 20:35:47 what does it mean when my slime prompt goes from "CL-USER>" to "SWANK>" 20:35:48 well, nm. 20:36:07 dekuked: it means the package has changed 20:36:08 this was after I quickloaded a library 20:36:13 <[6502]_> Fare: I've been also interested in understanding what are the real dark sides of Lisp. I liked too much the little I saw and this is incompatible with how much it's used now... i've read a lot about Lisp (and lispers) problems... but still the total doesn't seem correct 20:36:25 dekuked: that shouldn't really happen 20:36:29 dekuked: what library? 20:36:29 stassats: is that normal behavior? 20:36:32 and what OS 20:36:36 who here reads the logs of most chatrooms they enter before speaking in them? 20:36:38 gbbopen/osx 10.6 20:36:55 well, gbbopen is "some strong word, not to offend anyone"ed 20:37:29 dekuked: what's the value of swank:*communication-style*? 20:37:43 dekuked: gbbopen doesn't follow established conventions and customs 20:37:57 I guess I don't understand how to answer that first question 20:38:09 just evaluated swank:*communication-style* 20:38:21 <[6502]_> stassats: people from different countries and cultures weight words quite differently. bullshit may be ok in US, but for someone else it could be considered offensive. 20:38:48 [6502]_: you never know what people will find offensive 20:38:49 i've always found it curious that people who've never used the language but are interested are so ensconsed (sp?) with lisp's problems before they even dive in. 20:38:49 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 20:39:23 I imagine because learning a new language is hard and they want to make it easier for themselves. 20:39:24 erm, would they get "i like to eat pie" as something offensive ? 20:39:36 [6502]_: In the US, saying something is "bullshit" is different from saying something is false or meaningless. It implies the person making the statement is intentionally making a false or meaningless statement. 20:39:38 lol 20:39:42 homie: let's not discuss this any further 20:40:15 let's let's 20:40:29 dekuked: so, what's the value of swank:*communication-style*? 20:40:44 q about cl-store, i have a list and a b-tree, i insert list elements into b-tree and save both to disk, now when i restore, will same elements be eq? 20:41:08 if it's :spawn, then it's very weird, not so weird if it' snot 20:41:34 <[6502]_> j_king: I used lisp quite a bit in the last couple of years, but never for "real stuff" (i.e. it never paid my bills). Before going to next stage and pushing such a decision on others I'd like to see why no one (numerically talking) uses it... 20:42:38 -!- jsnell_ is now known as jsnell 20:42:46 i just tried, they are :S 20:43:11 so, it preserves sharing 20:44:39 yes! seems so 20:44:43 awesome 20:44:44 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c1898.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:44:48 -!- jonaskoelker [~jonas@d58c5bd2.rev.dansknet.dk] has left #lisp 20:44:50 looks like stassats was right, graspee is a tad of douchebag, as /msg showed. 20:45:38 irc: sped-up USENET 20:46:38 asvil [~asvil@178.120.214.92] has joined #lisp 20:48:48 wmoxam [~wmoxam@pdpc/supporter/active/wmoxam] has joined #lisp 20:49:46 madnificent: you tried to msg him? I did too :-) he left irc completely. 20:50:06 -!- tensorpudding_ is now known as tensorpudding 20:50:18 -!- [6502]_ is now known as [6502] 20:50:42 philcrissman [~philcriss@c-174-53-217-149.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:09 ehu: and nothing of value was lost. 20:51:09 JackKeyLime [~Jack@pool-173-71-50-112.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:35 well, whatcha gonna do, one prospective lisp programmer less 20:52:09 more jobs to go around. 20:52:39 <[6502]> it's the first time I see one of those flames lispers are well known for :-) 20:52:55 <[6502]> i hope it's not my fault... 20:53:52 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.5.148] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:54:12 offtopic stuff better discussed when resident toxicologist are sleeping :-) 20:54:19 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.5.148] has joined #lisp 20:55:07 -!- JackKeyLime [~Jack@pool-173-71-50-112.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:55:08 dekuked` [~user@pool-72-74-50-53.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:44 antonv [5d7d3142@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.66] has joined #lisp 20:57:28 -!- dekuked [~user@pool-72-74-50-53.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:57:39 -!- rpg [~rpg@c-98-229-120-236.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:57:48 rpg [~rpg@c-98-229-120-236.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:00 -!- wmoxam [~wmoxam@pdpc/supporter/active/wmoxam] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:02:03 apparently (&optional) is a valid lambda list 21:02:07 -!- zanoni [quassel@nat/indt/x-ekdedzssawxliwcx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:02:43 maxm-: yes. Quite useful to denote functions that return no value. 21:03:05 pkhuong: as an ordinary lambda list 21:03:14 madnificent: perhaps we have a 20-yo standard, but we can run 52-yo programs in CL! 21:03:35 maxm-: i'd say it can be useful for macro-expansions 21:03:43 -!- cfdm [~user@114.205.86.94] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:04:13 [6502]: when money is involved, quality drops. 21:04:21 CL is designed to produce quality software. 21:04:40 -!- ski [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: bounce] 21:04:44 <[6502]> having (< 0) meaning (lambda (x) (< x 0)) is a bad idea? 21:05:02 you mean minusp? 21:05:09 [6502]: why isn't it (< 0 x)? 21:05:37 -!- Facefox [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:05:40 <[6502]> stassats: yeah... and forty-two-p :-) 21:06:19 <[6502]> pkhuong: you think it would be more natural? 21:06:21 that's like partial application 21:06:26 <[6502]> yeah 21:06:43 although it doesn't make sense for arbitrary arguments functions 21:07:12 [6502]: It doesn't pay my bills but I use it all the time. It has short-comings I hear, but I've never encountered them myself and they all sound really theoretical. 21:07:52 [6502]: why does the currying stop there? Why can't I (funcall (funcall (< 0) 5) 6)? 21:07:54 <[6502]> j_king: exactly. but I don't buy explanations that require to suppose that everyone else in the world is an idiot 21:08:29 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-182-9.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:08:38 <[6502]> pkhuong: automatic currying has a price too high to pay IMO... e.g. no default values, no variadic functions 21:09:22 <[6502]> pkhuong: but (< x) doesn't seem much to lose (currently it's valid in my toy lisp and returns always true) 21:09:37 n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@178.47.30.175] has joined #lisp 21:10:23 and where do you need forty-two-p? 21:10:38 when interpolating me! 21:10:44 whenever you do something like this, there's (find 42 seq) 21:10:50 lol 21:10:52 or (find 42 seq :test #'>) 21:12:04 [6502]: I used to think that way too. :) 21:12:13 then i got older. 21:12:15 :/ 21:12:16 [6502]: I wanted to publish a package that provides the following form of partial application #`(< ,1 42). I think that's quite CommonLispesque 21:12:23 -!- n1nt4tsn0k|1 [~nitnatsno@178.47.30.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:12:50 pjb: i find it quite cool that it is relatively old and is still standing the test of time. 21:13:17 <[6502]> madnificent: biologist have a name for stable stuff :-) 21:13:31 tcr1: may be confused with `#(< ,1 42) 21:13:52 [6502]: you're hinting at something i can't immediately recall 21:14:08 <[6502]> madnificent: "dead" :-) 21:14:17 -!- ASau` [~user@95-26-251-179.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:14:33 [6502]: ah lol 21:15:03 well, death ceases homeostasis, so it's less stable 21:15:28 stassats: and #'(lambda (x) x) with '#(lambda (x) x) 21:15:38 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:16:08 -!- schmx [~marcus@c83-254-190-169.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:16:13 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@37-219-147-87.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:16:24 tcr1: actually, my main complain against such things, is there're n+1 similar extensions with different or slightly different semantics 21:16:54 -!- saage_ [~saage@187.55.67.84] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:17:09 and short symbolic names such as #` don't make it easier to remember which one is which 21:17:10 There are n+1 lisp dialects with different or slightly different semantics 21:17:36 we all know that CL is the best 21:17:42 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:17:59 tcr1: i wouldn't argue if such a thing were included in the standard or made universally used, though 21:19:10 [6502]: http://longnow.org/ 21:19:26 the thing I like about it that it allows ,@rest or whatever to allow making use of a &rest thing. And reordering of arguments. And its syntax fits in with Common Lisp. (backquote giving a template, sharp-quote meaining function space_ 21:20:48 ski [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:20:59 named-readtables was meant to be the first step for me to publish such a thing. :-) (And one which makes [foo] expand to (brackets "foo") so you could macrolet brackets.) 21:21:30 that's taking things too far! 21:21:32 Wouldn't mind if anyone takes these ideas and make them fly. 21:22:00 -!- booyaa` [~booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:23:39 is there any way to unregister a system from asdf? 21:23:56 maxm-: what would that mean? 21:24:06 or rather, imply 21:24:11 make (find-system) find the system in a different place 21:24:47 clear-source-registry? 21:25:09 ah clear-system did it 21:25:31 *maxm-* was looking for delete,unregister,etc forgot "clear" 21:26:11 hmm no still finds it in old place.. 21:26:31 wondering if putting "." as first entry would solve it 21:27:47 dagal [~dagal@91.179.12.20] has joined #lisp 21:27:57 Hi all! 21:28:10 ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #lisp 21:29:09 it is actually really weird, it finds it in the new place, but absolute-pathname all point to the old place 21:29:16 drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 21:29:33 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-214-172.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:29:51 that is (find-system :system) returns the system that when you inspect it, slot 'absolute-pathname points to one dir, and 'relative-pathname and 'source-file to a different dir 21:31:05 adu [~ajr@ip-64-134-97-188.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:15 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 21:32:33 -!- adu [~ajr@ip-64-134-97-188.public.wayport.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:32:45 -!- ski [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: bounce !] 21:34:13 -!- [6502] [5e24fc3e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.252.62] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:34:48 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-82-247.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 21:35:29 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:37:16 Joreji [~thomas@74-201.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 21:37:31 hugod [~user@207.164.135.98] has joined #lisp 21:38:43 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 21:38:53 cfdm [~user@114.205.86.94] has joined #lisp 21:39:44 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has quit [Quit: francisl] 21:42:14 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:42:37 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 21:42:45 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA23BD1.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:43:09 pspace [~andrew@li450-44.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 21:44:09 pnq [~nick@ACA23BD1.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 21:46:02 -!- Joreji [~thomas@74-201.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:48:57 jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:01 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.214.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:50:26 Joreji [~thomas@74-201.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 21:51:20 dekuked`` [~user@pool-72-74-50-53.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:37 ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:52:45 -!- dekuked` [~user@pool-72-74-50-53.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:55:35 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:57:52 hitecnologys1 [~noname@46.233.207.250] has joined #lisp 21:57:52 -!- hitecnologys [~noname@46.233.207.250] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:58:23 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:58:50 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.5.148] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:59:46 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 22:00:22 Facefox [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:35 ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #lisp 22:07:11 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Offline] 22:08:45 -!- pspace [~andrew@li450-44.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 22:08:49 -!- BeLucid [~belucid@cpe-066-057-057-247.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:09:44 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:10:10 BeLucid [~belucid@cpe-066-057-057-247.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:10:16 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:13:02 eh, i feel like my solutions to this are overly-complex... anyone advice on a simple way: I want to pass a range of array elements as function arguments: (my-func (aref arr 4) ... (aref arr 7)), for different ranges 22:13:49 (my-func arr :start 4 :end 7)? 22:15:46 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:16:06 (my-func aref arr (4 . 7)) 22:17:16 nope 22:19:36 I don't know. I'm too young with lisp. 22:21:12 stassats: I'll be more specific, as I'm probably muddying things -- I'm passing over a zpng:data-array arr, and want to pass the rgba elements (retrieved with something like (aref arr row column r) (aref arr row column b) ...) as arguments to a (filter r g b a) function. I solved the problem, but feel like it's possible in a fraction of my code 22:21:23 adu [~ajr@ip-64-134-97-188.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:40 i don't see your code 22:22:09 I broke it trying to find a "simpler way"... I can try to reconstruct 22:22:24 -!- abeaumont [~Alfredo@90.165.165.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:22:46 abeaumont [~Alfredo@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 22:23:04 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:23:59 I iterated over the row-column in 4s, building up a 4 element list, and applying the function to that 22:24:01 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:08 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.5.148] has joined #lisp 22:24:22 but it had so many nearly identical (aref arr row column x) calls, that it bothered me 22:24:23 we have a better language for describing such things 22:24:53 -!- Joreji [~thomas@74-201.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:25:27 stassats: I'm feeling it's loop... which it's far past time for me to learn I think 22:25:50 it's called Lisp, i don't understand your description, show me the code! 22:25:54 stassats: or do you mean -- "paste real cl code" 22:25:57 ah yes 22:28:29 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.5.148] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:32:24 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178-164-243-68.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 22:32:25 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178-164-243-68.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 22:32:25 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 22:34:52 -!- adu [~ajr@ip-64-134-97-188.public.wayport.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 22:37:38 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA23BD1.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:38:45 -!- antonv [5d7d3142@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.66] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:38:51 -!- hugod [~user@207.164.135.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:38:59 shizzy0 [~user@c-24-91-161-73.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:06 stassats: http://paste.lisp.org/display/129599 22:39:34 those repeated arefs.... so repetitive 22:39:55 hugod [~user@207.164.135.98] has joined #lisp 22:40:08 -!- ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:40:18 -!- harish [~harish@119.234.160.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:40:22 -!- b_ [~b@cpc3-acto3-2-0-cust505.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:40:55 robot-beethoven: Look at APPLY and SUBSEQ. 22:42:23 sellout: I was concerned about using subseq on the multidimensional-array 22:42:43 it wouldn't work 22:42:44 robot-beethoven: Oh, it's multidemensional  and I take it zpng isn't yours. 22:42:56 if all you do is have 4 values, then i wouldn't worry about it 22:43:06 zpng is Xachs 22:43:07 only put (zpng:data-array png) into a variable 22:43:18 rvchangue_ [~rvchangue@cpe-024-074-007-002.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:43:23 Yeah. But it seems like those four values might be better as a struct inside a 2D array. 22:43:57 robot-beethoven: and I would use a 2D array of colors, not a 3D array of color components. 22:44:20 *fist pump* pjb agrees. 22:44:44 *pkhuong* refrains from suggesting a struct of arrays ;) 22:44:45 or you could use zpng:image-data and subseq 22:45:00 subseq conses! 22:45:02 but that was not the decision the author of the lib made 22:45:07 consing is no fun 22:45:31 telling robot-beethoven to rewrite it does not really seem a fair suggestion 22:45:33 imho 22:45:44 robot-beethoven: what does painter-func do? 22:46:08 francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176432531.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:46:12 -!- rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:47:00 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-142-60.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:47:19 jasom: hmmm, I missed zpng:image-data 22:47:59 robot-beethoven: or maybe pixel-streamed-png 22:48:09 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-142-60.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:48:19 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-117-130.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:50:05 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-132-28.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:50:08 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:52:51 DataLinkDroid [~David@110.141.114.250] has joined #lisp 22:55:13 lopin [~pierre_lo@41.248.220.51] has joined #lisp 22:56:49 stassats: sorry, my code wasn't correct, this better reflects what I want to do: http://paste.lisp.org/+2S04 22:57:16 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-208-82.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:00:40 Sgeo [~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:53 robot-beethoven: your code is perfectly good as it is. 23:02:30 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-132-28.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:02:37 pjb: thanks, that's all I needed :) 23:02:39 robot-beethoven: now, it is possible that some implementation don't optimize out the sequence of (aref (png-read:image-data source-png) row column i). Then you could do it with a displaced array. 23:03:41 (let ((pixel (displace-on-pixel (png-read:image-data source-png) row column))) ( ( (aref pixel 0) (aref pixel 1) ) (setf (aref pixel 0)  (aref pixel 1) ))) 23:03:46 robot-beethoven: http://paste.lisp.org/display/129604#1 23:04:39 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 23:08:34 and the macro should be right, of course 23:08:51 i meant `(aref ,array row column ,n) 23:09:35 stassats: macrolet! I've haven't used macrolet yet... *fun* 23:09:53 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:10:11 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-tnfvopbvkjdjnwkb] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:11:19 -!- Kvaks [~quassel@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:12:13 you can get even more fancy 23:12:18 -!- hugod [~user@207.164.135.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:13:38 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-vlxrzugyujwvwrec] has joined #lisp 23:13:44 hugod [~user@207.164.135.98] has joined #lisp 23:14:38 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:14:49 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:15:10 ASau [~user@95-26-251-179.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 23:16:04 dfox [~dfox@rei.ipv6.dfox.org] has joined #lisp 23:16:25 robot-beethoven: http://paste.lisp.org/display/129604#2 23:16:35 but i like the previous version better, more clear 23:18:32 -!- shizzy0 [~user@c-24-91-161-73.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:20:34 -!- hugod [~user@207.164.135.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:21:59 *stassats* is sad that multiple-value-call has such an unwieldy name 23:23:33 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-vlxrzugyujwvwrec] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:25:22 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 23:27:44 hitecnologys [~noname@46.233.207.250] has joined #lisp 23:27:45 -!- hitecnologys1 [~noname@46.233.207.250] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:34:25 -!- kilon [~kilon@188.4.88.62.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:34:57 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:37:34 ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 23:38:00 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 23:39:24 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:40:15 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:35 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:42:17 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:46 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:46:18 -!- shifty is now known as Guest89 23:46:47 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:46:56 DaDaDOSPrompt [~DaDaDOSPr@63-231-108-178.clsp.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:48:10 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:51:35 -!- dekuked`` [~user@pool-72-74-50-53.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:54:27 pnq [~nick@AC813E3C.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 23:56:26 kanru [~user@61-228-146-139.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:04 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:06 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:58:45 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-208-82.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:58:45 -!- hitecnologys [~noname@46.233.207.250] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:58:46 hitecnologys1 [~noname@46.233.207.250] has joined #lisp