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[~tic@c83-249-198-162.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:25:31 mikaelj [~tic@c83-249-198-162.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 01:27:59 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-bqmsztkyaxtowllp] has joined #lisp 01:28:23 -!- springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:29:56 -!- mikaelj [~tic@c83-249-198-162.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:33:27 -!- keltvek [~keltvek@89-212-113-105.static.t-2.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:34:53 springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has joined #lisp 01:35:55 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-bqmsztkyaxtowllp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:38:05 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 01:39:18 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-zemhemcsowhmccyz] has joined #lisp 01:39:30 mikaelj [~tic@c83-249-198-162.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 01:40:33 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 01:43:08 -!- Radium [~rajesh.na@117.203.4.151] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:44:03 Radium [~rajesh.na@117.203.1.145] has joined #lisp 01:44:30 keltvek [~keltvek@89-212-113-105.static.t-2.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:20 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@201.53.12.75] has joined #lisp 01:51:50 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:52:27 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 01:58:48 -!- mrTapir [vutral@thinkbase.srv.welterde.de] has quit [Changing host] 01:58:49 mrTapir [vutral@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 02:00:18 -!- ski_ [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:01:27 Is there a way to make slime-sprof-report show the entire name? It cuts off the call name after about 50 columns. :( 02:02:35 <|3b|> you can hit enter or v or something to jump to source if nothing else 02:02:36 ski_ [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 02:02:49 *|3b|* doesn't remember exactly which key it is 02:03:16 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 02:03:56 ah, that's handy. Thanks. 02:04:10 -!- francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176173836.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: francisl] 02:10:52 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:11:42 -!- OliverUv [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:13:20 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:17:15 Liaoao [~Administr@123.139.23.104] has joined #lisp 02:18:51 francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176173836.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:20:00 is there anything that would make sb-thread::call-with-system-mutex/without-gcing take a ridiculous amount of time? I have two relatively similar versions of an application. The code path that calls cancel-finalization (which seems to be where that happens) is relatively unchanged in both cases, afaict, but when I run one version of the code, c-w-s-m takes a whopping 25% self according to sb-sprof. 02:22:10 http://paste.lisp.org/display/129387#1 <-- sb-sprof results here. I don't know what could be causing that huge spike. 02:23:41 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:49 -!- Radium [~rajesh.na@117.203.1.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:27:01 Blocking io? 02:28:42 That wouldn't be surprising. The 'slow' code is me trying to use a different event dispatch library. 02:29:21 16WAAJUYV [~rajesh.na@117.203.12.17] has joined #lisp 02:29:30 Zhivago: what makes you think it's that, by the way? 02:29:31 Might re-run over strace. 02:29:46 Usual problem when profiling doesn't show delays. 02:35:58 *sykopomp* isn't sure what to look for in strace, but sees some FUTEX_WAIT_PRIVATE stuff. 02:37:41 It has an option to measure time spent in syscalls and time between syscalls. 02:38:56 ah. Thanks. :) 02:39:17 -!- comatose_kid [~comatose_@CPE0023bee41a54-CM0023bee41a51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:39:18 -!- jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:43:20 -!- CampinSam [~user@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:45:56 kennyd_ [~kennyd@78-1-145-21.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 02:47:24 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-177-109.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:54:36 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:55:28 grettke [~grettke@70.92.11.221] has joined #lisp 02:58:22 Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.66.141] has joined #lisp 02:58:52 Yuuhi``` [benni@p5483B869.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:18 -!- Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483AFC9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:07:20 -!- y3llow_ [~y3llow@114-36-228-144.dynamic.hinet.net] has left 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[Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:28:16 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 16:32:13 ferada [~ferada@dslb-088-069-043-179.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:37 pnq [~nick@AC82FC3F.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 16:32:37 hmm, CommonQt seems does not have a way to override a destructor 16:32:44 in qt-metaclass objects 16:33:02 asvil [~asvil@178.121.61.2] has joined #lisp 16:33:49 *maxm-* can workaround by making a specialized method on (setf qobject-deleted) (obj my-window), which should get called from (defun note-deleted) but it seems like a hack 16:39:11 found a better way, (connect obj "destroyed()" 'callback) 16:44:34 -!- ynniv [~ynniv@c-76-23-252-81.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ynniv] 16:44:34 -!- BrianRice [~water@75-172-8-148.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:44:56 BrianRice [~water@75-172-8-148.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:20 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:47:33 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 16:47:55 -!- paul0 [~paul0@200.175.60.60.dynamic.dialup.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: paul0] 16:48:21 -!- feliped is now known as felideon 16:49:57 mmm, that 33 million entries hash table is already taking 2.7GB of memory and is well away from being full 16:51:38 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:58 use teh number of garbageman in boston type estimate 16:55:38 FreeArtMan [~fam@213.175.106.134] has joined #lisp 16:56:47 ie lets assume you wasting 256 bytes per entry, 1k per 4 entries => 25k for 100 entries, 250k for 1000 entries, or 22 meg per million, so 33 mil entries = ~22 megs times 33 aproximatily 700 megs 16:57:12 m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.189] has joined #lisp 16:57:13 take it as 1 k per entry, and there go your 2 gigs, plus add wastage etc 16:57:49 solution for these kinds of problem are in packing your data, you can easily decrease amount of bytes per entry by factor of 10 16:58:26 hashing 33 million entries is probably outside the use-case for hash tables anyway .. that's what rdbms's are for 16:58:28 -!- saint_cypher [~rjspotter@c-76-126-70-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:58:38 store octet vectors instead of strings will prob save you 4x on string data.. Store stuff in vectors rather then lists 16:58:50 you can checkout my :cl-maxlib defseries 16:58:55 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:59:09 which gives per-column-typed-arrays with defstruct like interface 16:59:21 so there is no wasted space 16:59:24 -!- dangling-pointer [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/ccomendant] has left #lisp 16:59:37 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-41.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:00:04 oGMo: doesn't sound much 17:00:08 *maxm-* wishes SBCL simple-base-string would default to just untouched 8 bit chars rather then 7-bit thing 17:00:47 maxm-: build it without sb-unicode 17:00:48 7-bit thing is really impractical, and I see absolutely no reason for it other then demonstrating how strict SBCL is by default, and "excercising the gaskets" of the type system 17:00:58 maxm-: doesn't the hyperspec say what a simple-base-string should be? 17:01:10 oh if it does then I guess we boned 17:01:27 how is it unpractical? 7-bit is ascii, what would you store in 8-bits? 17:01:49 without sb-unicode, 8-bit is used for latin-1, but latin-1 doesn't match with unicode 17:02:06 -!- xristos_ [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:02:12 maxm-: i'm wrong, they could do so. 17:02:13 xristos [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has joined #lisp 17:02:19 basically an sequence of bytes that is treated as string with sane 8-bit encoding ie iso-something-with-8-and-1-in-it-1 17:02:34 maxm-: i was messing it up with standard-char 17:02:35 maxm-: i don't understand what you want 17:02:38 -!- xristos is now known as Guest67772 17:02:48 sacho [~sacho@95-42-65-144.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 17:03:55 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:04:05 *maxm-* thinks on how to describe it 17:04:06 no, latin-1 is compatible with unicode, but not with utf-8 17:04:08 stassats: latin-1 fits with unicode; it doesn't fit with utf-8, though. 17:04:59 4.3GB already, running fine though 17:05:48 dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 17:06:19 and c uses signed chars for characters as well, so having 7 bits is useful 17:06:28 stassats: guess something like "to store a lot of textual data, which is mostly english, but with maybe 1% of unicode characters", without wasting 4 bytes per character 17:06:32 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 17:06:41 maxm-: that's called utf-8 encoded text. 17:06:46 yup 17:07:11 use that then. Problem solved. 17:07:27 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: trivial-irc-0.0.3] 17:07:44 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:45 but would have been nice to just have it in some kind of 'string so it prints it disregarding any unicode stuff (ie just prints un-escaped chars).. Simularly to what you'll see in C char buf[20] or such 17:07:56 rather then in array (unsigned-byte 8) 17:08:19 maxm-: unfortunately, strings in common lisp are vectors of subtypes of character. 17:08:40 utf-8 streams are not vectors of character, without stretching the definition of vector beyond what I find reasonable. 17:08:45 anyway, its a minor thing, and does not bother me, but it seems if one is to store a lot of textual data, and running out of memory, will have to make a wrapper 17:10:08 i don't store everything in one string, so something with at least one unicode character will be stored in simple-string, and with all ascii characters in simple-base-string 17:14:10 5.2GB taken already, well, let's hope it completes before running out of memory 17:14:11 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:14:31 next gc won't be pleasant 17:14:48 dim: remember when I asked you whether all the names were ascii or not? This is why. 17:15:20 well as it's a one-off run (considering the best case scenario) I'm not cleaning up the defvar holding the hash-table after I'm not needing it anymore 17:15:50 actually here is idea for alexandria utility. (defun minimal-string (str) (or (ignore-errors (coerce str 'simple-base-string)) str)) 17:15:56 pkhuong: yes I do remember, I also do remember our guesstimates with strings to be somewhere at 2GB 17:15:57 unless there is more elegant way of doing it 17:16:15 dim: yes, if your names were all ASCII so that you used base-strings. 17:16:29 well depends how he reads them 17:16:33 maxm-: on ccl all strings are simple-base 17:16:39 dim: you're using full 32 bit/character strings. 17:16:44 ah ok, thought he was on sbcl 17:16:52 I didn't coerce any type in my script yet, I'm just using what postmodern is giving me, and what it knows about the situation is "unicode text" 17:17:05 maxm-: i was talking about adding it to alexandria 17:17:12 I'm using CCL here 17:17:30 stassats: well then function would be a no-op on CCL, still useful on other architectures 17:17:35 I didn't setup the sbcl for slime and I wanted to be able to continue manually should it break in flight 17:17:47 What's CCL? UTF-16 everywhere? 17:17:54 idea is to pass all of your textual data through that function, to save memory 17:17:55 dunno 17:18:19 dim: hope you have a large enough heap. 17:18:29 with some luck it will be constrained into the 8GB of RAM this server has 17:18:50 well, dinner time, and only time will tell now :) 17:19:17 maxm-: on sbcl, (find (code-char (1- sb-int:base-char-code-limit)) "sring" :test-not #'char>) 17:19:29 and I have no clue how CCL implements hash tables, all that stasstas and I talked about is SBCL specific. That's why measuring is best. 17:19:43 stassats: yea I considered that, but thought catching error from 'coerce would be faster, since coerce has to scan the string anyway 17:19:53 so it would be 1 pass over the text rather then 2 17:20:05 is there any lisp prototype-based object-oriented system that supports a MOP except for Sheeple? 17:20:11 stassats: bah, there's a neat way with vector-raw-bits (: 17:20:24 and since expected use-case is that fast-path is string being ascii only 17:20:53 maxm-: then again doing that in the ecoding step would be even better. 17:21:24 ecraven: not sure what "prototype based" means, is it important from just plain clos? I know there is one on Elisp called "luna" 17:22:15 pkhuong: I think a lot of people doing various webserver benchmarks here concentrate on poll/event stuff, not considering all the lossage from string/octet conversions 17:22:58 professional grade web servers try to defer any encoding issues way out.. Ie weblogic inner loop is basically receiving raw bytes, then just having a large switch (byte)... as treating them as chars 17:23:28 -!- Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:23:50 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 17:23:55 I think they even special-case on 1st char being (char-code #\G) etc... to parse GET/POST and most often used headers quickly 17:24:33 maxm-: prototype-based means like Self, JavaScript or Sheeple, not like CLOS (or Java or C++ or C# or most others) 17:24:42 maxm-: conserv has that too! 17:24:45 tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.203.36] has joined #lisp 17:25:00 *madnificent* eyes sykopomp 17:25:02 funny enough I had to jad weblogic, then put a fixed main loop class back, due to client using weblogic 6, and needing a urgent hotfix 17:25:23 madnificent: :| 17:25:46 pkhuong: let's consider I'm measuring now :) 17:25:49 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.93] has joined #lisp 17:26:04 ecraven: ok then I don't know of any.. I think dto guy is doing stuff related to writing lisp games, and I remember seeing something like "extending clos with prototypes" 17:26:17 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:26:22 ecraven: google "lisp blocky" to find it 17:27:19 that would be sheeple i guess 17:27:22 got the *counters* lock after 35.892666s 17:27:34 ah, this monitoring piece was useful after all 17:27:43 sykopomp: still had to find a way to get back to you :P 17:27:44 blocky uses CLON (or whatever it's called these days) 17:28:11 madnificent: figure out why the hell cancel-finalization is killing performance, please. 17:28:17 (only outputs when bt:with-lock-held took more than 1s) 17:28:20 :D 17:28:26 sykopomp: cancel-finalization? what is that? 17:28:36 sykopomp: did you ever encounter another prototype-based system that has a MOP when writing Sheeple? 17:28:55 ecraven: no. 17:29:20 pmetzger [~pmetzger@166.84.161.166] has joined #lisp 17:29:20 *madnificent* assumes he'll build one sometime in the further future. 17:29:25 sykopomp: lol I know why 17:29:37 coz its a list, and it uses linear search to delete from it 17:29:39 on sbcl 17:29:41 sykopomp: would you consider the Sheeple MOP "mostly finished" or "just started working on it"? 17:29:47 I didn't encounter any that did multiple-dispatch either, or any that were anything but function-inside-object-style. 17:29:50 madnificent: why not sooner rather than later? 17:30:06 cancel-finalization with a lot of finalizers -> killer 17:30:12 anyone here know much about running genera/VLM? I get a hang in my window manager while starting it up. 17:30:14 sykopomp: that's what i find so intriguing about Sheeple.. it really *is* prototypal CLOS! great thing! 17:30:17 ecraven: I haven't touched Sheeple in several years, and its MOP was mostly just experimenting with the idea of 'wtf does a MOP look like for prototype OO?' 17:30:19 ecraven: there's something that's called 'free time' and it not being that much in my life right now. which in turn means that i'll start working again. 17:30:28 figured someone here might know. 17:30:40 ecraven: that was the idea, yes. I use CLOS for everything these days, though. 17:30:41 madnificent: good thing too, work, if it brings in money :) 17:31:03 ecraven: sykopomp is being modest and honest, but the mop in sheeple was similar to that of amop. if you're interested it may be worth to look at it. 17:31:20 sykopomp: for practical reasons or because you believe it to be superior in terms of concepts? 17:31:30 losing my job and starting to daytrade was the best thing that ever happened to me.. Now have time to actually do stuff I like 17:31:34 madnificent: ah, great, i'm a bit familiar with that 17:31:51 (I can successfully kill the genera process by switching consoles and then everything comes back to normal, but I'm kind of having trouble figuring out what's going wrong.) 17:31:52 of course could be "rising tide lifts all boats" effect in play.. 17:32:08 maxm-: no, what I'm saying is that the code that would lead to cancel-finalization didn't change at all, as far as I can tell, but it's somehow either being called much more, or taking much longer than usual. 17:32:21 and iirc, it was stable. i do remember being very unpleased with some of the choices sykopomp made. so there must be gems in there! 17:32:40 sykopomp: check the (length sb-impl::**finalizer-store**) 17:32:44 ecraven: a mixture of practical reasons and not believing Sheeple adds enough to justify the trouble. 17:33:13 maxm-: I may need to start doing that, yeah... 17:33:20 sykopomp: thanks for the information! 17:33:33 sykopomp: like I said, cancel-finalization is slow (linear slow). If you need to regularly cancel finalizers, consider using a mutable cell as a flag. 17:33:38 sykopomp: if it approaches a few k, then cancel-finalization really starts to feel O(n) effects 17:33:42 If I were to start working on Sheeple again, i would probably change a number of things about its API. 17:34:20 sykopomp: do you have time to elaborate on what you would change? i'd be very interested! 17:34:28 I wouldn't be surprised that a gc run is happening now 17:34:28 -!- BitRunes [~ghost@2001:da8:d800:101:216:d3ff:feae:1b91] has quit [Quit: ] 17:34:58 pkhuong: It's IOLib's cancel-finalization on socket close that shows up in my profile. I haven't touched the socket-closing code at all (either in iolib or my own code), so I'm just headscratching a lot and wondering if anything else would lead to it becoming slower where it is (maybe there's a lot more sockets getting closed, for some reason?) 17:35:08 seems 200/256 shards are done in 6GB, I have 8GB total, should be ok 17:35:16 sykopomp: or more sockets period. 17:35:52 pkhuong: which is odd, considering I'm running the same benchmark, with the same number of connections, on two versions of the code. 17:35:55 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:36:30 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:36:43 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 17:37:25 ynniv [~ynniv@204.9.220.45] has joined #lisp 17:40:31 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:42:15 sykopomp: in fresh images each? 17:42:47 yes. 17:42:50 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.167.230] has joined #lisp 17:43:00 restart, git branch, recompile, rerun 17:44:09 *maxm-* found there are really tricky corner cases with lisp/c++ land sharing and caching based on addresses or fd numbers 17:44:30 dim: what are your keys? 17:44:39 ie i got bit by a bug of receiving a same address twice, because c++ had deleted the object, and new shared-ptr for a different object got the same address 17:45:01 maxm-: the bug here would be hanging on to a dead pointer. 17:45:53 ah yes.. that too sykopomp is code change between two version involve (lambda () ...) in any way? 17:46:01 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:29 coz closing over the variables in a lambda, will prevent the object from being deleted, and if that lambda is part of the callback passed to C/C++ land, then its a circular dependency 17:47:19 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:48 well, there's event-handling callbacks. I'm using cffi:defcallback, and I track event object pointers in a hash table lisp-side, indexed by the pointer address, with the value being a lisp object which holds a pointer to the pointer. 17:47:52 ...something like that. 17:48:28 is that hash table weak? 17:48:51 no 17:48:59 maxm-: on what would it be weak? 17:48:59 *maxm-* had a very similar problem, and just finished reworking his framework to avoid exactly that problem 17:49:53 oh. I may actually be neglecting to remove things from that table when I should. Hmmmm. 17:49:57 pkhuong: values... otherwise how lisp object will get collected if its referenced from a hashtable? unless he deletes them from another callback, when C side deallocates the object 17:50:36 maxm-: but then, why would one would need the table in the first place? 17:50:47 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:50:52 ah no, they should be removed appropriately already. 17:50:56 pkhuong: so that when I return same object from C/land, I return same lisp object 17:51:16 -!- jjkola_work [c064748e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.116.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:51:41 -!- e271 [d521469d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.33.70.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:52:00 maxm-: but you don't because it's weak on keys. So it only works if the object you're returning is, effectively, the pointer. 17:52:20 antoniok19 [~antonior7@151.77.164.51] has joined #lisp 17:52:30 The use cases for (weakly) hash-consed pointers are... thin. 17:52:41 pjb: at the source, PostgreSQL text, utf-8 17:53:20 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 17:53:23 the script looks blocked (no output) and the CCL process is still eating lots of CPU in top, so I think it's the gc running here 17:53:40 actually 2% cpu only 17:53:56 dim: so they're not small strings of ascii, like ticker symbols. 17:54:10 pkhuong: its weak on values, not on keys.. keys are simply integers which are (sap-int #c++address) 17:54:19 -!- antoniok19 [~antonior7@151.77.164.51] has quit [] 17:54:24 maxm-: sure, weak on values. Same difference. 17:54:28 SHR dropped to 0 too 17:54:52 swapping or in a process of dumping core 17:54:58 That scheme only makes sense if the object mapped by each address holds no more information than the address itself, and maybe some address-dependent metadata. 17:55:00 check if you have growing "core" file in current dir 17:55:06 pjb: in fact actually they are user names, about [a-z0-9]{5,20} 17:55:10 -!- Radium_ [~rajesh.na@117.203.6.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:55:28 So I presume no one here right now has enough necromantic powers to help me with my Genera/VLM on Linux problem? 17:55:33 dim: if you could number them from 0, then you could use a vector instead of a hash-table. 17:55:46 oh hell, swapping in. 17:55:55 pjb: I would number them how? 17:55:55 Hm, is it possible for me to take an image I saved from clisp (via slime) and load that back into a running session, or must I start clisp while pointing it at the image on its command line or somesuch? 17:55:56 pmetzger: type /msg fsbot ask 17:56:07 maxm-: there are proxies (like commonqt's), and... that's pretty much it. 17:56:16 ChibaPet: no and yes. 17:56:19 pjb: ???? 17:56:29 (saved with ext:saveinitmem foo) 17:56:38 pmetzger: do what I say, type: /msg fsbot ask RET 17:56:54 pkhuong: well IMHO the use case for this is very common.. CommonQT, my framework, basically anywhere where shared-ptr with refcounting is used 17:57:14 pkhuong: commonqt is in fact should be treated as shared-ptrs, they just have their own model for it 17:57:33 almost everyone uses boost these days 17:57:39 could I somehow coerce the strings to some other type that would take much less place in the hash-table when used as a key? 17:57:52 dim: not on CCL. 17:58:04 Well, you could store utf-8 encoded byte vectors. 17:58:32 I know for a fact that the strings to only contain [a-z0-9] 17:58:36 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:58:53 so I could change that to 7 bits chars vectors maybe 17:58:54 dim: well, or base-36 encoded bignums. 17:58:59 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:59:14 hey I've been that trick before 17:59:28 but 20 digits base-36 numbers are big 17:59:36 dim: that why we have bignums. 17:59:40 how much ram would they take each, is there an easy way to know? 17:59:59 (integer-length (expt 36 20)) 18:00:08 esoteric solutions are esoteric.. Just run them through babel:string-to-octects for 2x reduction (if CCL uses 16 bit chars) 18:00:08 and I would use format's ~r to print them, what about reading them? 18:00:26 -!- clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:00:32 That's how many bits. Round that up to an even word, and add another one for the header data. 18:00:33 if still not enough, you can do some more esotiric data stractures like what are these prefix encoded things called 18:00:36 parse-integer. 18:01:13 maxm-: tries would likely not be a lot of help, especially on x86-64. 18:01:27 actually yea base-36 looks good, I forgot that parse-integer supports reading it too 18:01:42 clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has joined #lisp 18:02:22 in fact if they are your keys, it will likely speed up insertion a lot oo 18:02:24 too 18:02:53 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:03:22 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.66.141] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:06:48 add^_ [~add^_^@m90-141-35-110.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 18:08:53 Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.66.141] has joined #lisp 18:11:37 YokYok [~david@vmailbox.org] has joined #lisp 18:11:43 -!- kilon [~kilon@188.4.96.197.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:12:45 kilon [~kilon@178.128.38.36.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 18:13:20 pkhuong: 15 bytes rather than 40 for an utf8 string 18:13:22 nice 18:14:33 antgreen [~user@out-on-140.wireless.telus.com] has joined #lisp 18:15:12 (integer-length (parse-integer "foobarbaz0foobarbaz1" :radix 36)) is 103, how can I inquire about the same thing for the string? 18:15:24 length is not it as it's how many chars there's 18:16:08 nice, C-c and kill -15 are not stopping it 18:16:22 pkhuong: So, this idea of "no and yes"... Can you expand? 18:16:33 quitting emacs did though 18:19:54 hmm, replaced ppcre:split with split-sequence and (ppcre:scan "[A-Z]" name) with (some #'upper-case-p string) in my (with-qt) macro muncher, hopeing to speed up compile, absolutely no difference 18:19:59 seems ppcre is pretty good 18:21:00 [a-z0-9]{3,16} it seems 18:23:24 hi all. I lost link to picture in which there is CLOS methods calling schema. 18:24:12 dim: you could get the list of user names and put them in a vector. The indices would be the number of the name. 18:25:42 maxm-: upper-case-p is slow 18:27:24 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.164] has joined #lisp 18:27:25 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.66.141] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:28:23 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.175.206] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:28:57 stassats: why would it be slow? seems reasonable to expect it to use some kind of table lookup 18:29:18 the table lookup is slow 18:29:50 ledai [~lda@136.Red-83-42-45.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:23 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:30:31 well I guess can replace it with (char<= #\A char #\Z) 18:30:42 wouldn't it be faster, for STANDARD-CHARs to use the boundaries? 18:31:02 Urchin [~urchin@unaffiliated/urchin] has joined #lisp 18:32:01 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:05 maxm-: that would be faster 18:32:09 maxm-: i don't know how upcasing works for things that aren't standard-char but i doubt it'll work with char<= 18:32:13 Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.66.141] has joined #lisp 18:32:14 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-140-51.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:24 madnificent: standard-chars may have non letters between #\A and #\Z, IIRC. 18:32:53 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:32:57 *maxm-* uses it for a special case of qt method names, to either preserve or upcase them 18:33:29 but i don't think you will see any difference unless you're doing it gazzilions of times 18:33:41 coz I'm using invert readtable, so "blah" gets read in as symbol BLAH, while "fooBlah" is preserved, so I need to downcase in 1st case, and leave alone in 2nd 18:34:34 meh shaved off 10%, really not that much difference I guess with (debug 3) 18:34:34 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:35:04 pjb: the char-code is indeed not specifiad, as far as i find in the hyperspec 18:35:10 s/specifiad/specified/ 18:35:39 madnificent: but it's the same everywhere 18:35:41 (LOOP REPEAT 10000 DO (FORMAT NIL "~36r~%" (PARSE-INTEGER "camilafernandaca" :RADIX 36))) took 93,487 microseconds (0.093487 seconds) to run. 18:35:44 just to be sure :) 18:35:59 -!- ledai [~lda@136.Red-83-42-45.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ledai] 18:36:02 stassats: is it guaranteed to be so? or 'just' in practice? 18:36:13 it's guaranteed to be so in practice 18:36:24 the order of upper case letters on one side, of lower case letters on another side, and of digits on the last side is specified, but nothing said about other characters relative to those subsets. 18:36:27 -!- billitch [~billitch@70-36-196-160.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:36:32 if it's not, complain to your vendor for fucking things up 18:37:11 i think pjb is right. i'm a bit surprised, but i can't find anything in the spec saying that it's not allowed to inject stuff in there 18:38:21 he is correct indeed 18:38:25 madnificent: the spec is specified so that you can use EBCDIC. 18:38:27 but, what i said above 18:38:47 madnificent: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBCDIC#Codepage_layout 18:38:49 :-) 18:39:06 can I have format ~36r use lowecase? 18:39:13 ~(~) 18:39:56 stassats: yeah, i mostly agree. plus, you can check it at read-time if you'd care enough. 18:40:02 pjb: nice, that makes sense 18:40:13 stassats: cool thx 18:40:47 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:41:33 sacho_ [~sacho@95-42-65-144.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 18:41:45 *maxm-* is wondering where do I look up websites -> number of users, alexa? 18:41:59 to try to narrow down which site dim have data for :-) 18:43:13 All characters and strings in Clozure CL fully support Unicode by using UTF-32. There is only one CHARACTER type and one STRING type in Clozure CL. 18:43:19 it's even worse than we though 18:43:33 maxm-: suffice to ask, really 18:43:55 *maxm-* thought above was asking in a smartass way 18:44:23 do tell, unless of course very prorientary next instagramm type thing 18:44:46 it could be the next instagramm but has been there for a long time now 18:44:47 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:44:48 that's fotolog 18:45:00 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-65-144.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:45:13 http://www.pgcon.org/2012/schedule/events/431.en.html 18:45:14 -!- Inode [~inode@time.uk.chromedpork.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:45:16 never heard of it (don't take as a diss), but then I'm not into photos 18:45:32 it's very famous in south america, I'm told 18:46:03 used to be at least when facebook was not really "affordable" there because of restricted bandwiths 18:46:08 it's the orkut of instragrams? 18:46:31 -!- sacho_ [~sacho@95-42-65-144.btc-net.bg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:46:39 hehe, if you mean the one that has had a community for a long time, that's not dying, and that didn't make a billion, I would guess so 18:46:46 I only work there, btw 18:47:23 *slyrus_* waits for the fotolog servers to crumble under the weight of the #lisp-effect 18:48:46 dim: anyways, 20-digit in base-36 numbers are 104 bits (12 octets). If you have on the order of 4 billion users, you can give them a unique 32-bit number (4 octets) instead. 18:49:06 What's the overhead of bignums? 18:49:06 slyrus_: at this hour we might have anywhere between 6000 and 9000 concurrent visitors, please join 18:49:06 i should totally upload a black and white with vignetting photo of my lisp code 18:49:29 pjb: seems like it's more like 16 digits when checked 18:49:47 yes, there are median an averages. 18:49:49 and 18:50:00 16 digits max 18:50:15 still 83 bits, bignum. 18:50:51 33 million users < 4 billion 18:51:00 the problem is the mapping 18:51:23 Yes. You need a table. 18:51:29 I can't really maintain an hash of user_name -> 32 bit integer and pretend reducing memory usage :) 18:51:32 if you want to search the users by name. 18:51:45 dim: you can compute a perfect hash function. 18:51:52 if the set of users doesn't change often. 18:52:03 so I think 4*16 bytes -> 12 bytes is enough here 18:52:28 that would do the previous run in 1.5GB 18:52:38 dim: my point is that with UID instead of user name, you can use a vector instead of a hash-table, and this is much more space efficient. 18:52:42 provided that the hash table memory need is linear here 18:52:46 and even faster constant in the O(1) access. 18:52:49 dekuked [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:17 how do I practically get a vector index from the username without using all the same memory? 18:54:03 dim: how far up do I scroll to find the explanation of what you're trying to do? 18:55:07 hrm. probably from before I got on. 18:55:46 dim: I'd suggest using a table in the database. 18:56:08 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:57:36 dim: alternatively, and again if the set of users doesn't change often, you just put the user names in a vector, sort it O(nlogn), and use a dichotomy to find the index of an existing user. 18:58:02 (aref *data* (dichotomy-search *users* name)) 18:58:04 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:59:15 pjb: a single table accessible from the 256 databases... how come I didn't think about that already? :) 18:59:33 trying to be fun, sorry if that's not coming through 18:59:49 Oracle can do it. 18:59:51 I think /4 memory needs by using a bignum is going to make the deal 18:59:53 Can't Postgres do it? 19:00:01 You can connect to several database at once. 19:00:04 of course it can, with plproxy etc 19:00:25 but I've choosen to try solving that problem with CL mainly 19:00:40 claymore [~claymore_@host86-128-248-102.range86-128.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:01:06 that said, 33 million records doesn't sound too big. 19:01:35 I don't need :test 'equal when doing integer/bignum stuff, right? 19:02:08 clhs eql 19:02:08 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_eql.htm 19:02:11 -!- claymore [~claymore_@host86-128-248-102.range86-128.btcentralplus.com] has left #lisp 19:04:07 wow, I was only asking by security, didn't think eq wouldn't do it here 19:04:23 Matt_S_G [~Matt_S_G@gateway/tor-sasl/mattsg/x-78535695] has joined #lisp 19:04:36 I'll read up on places, yes :) 19:05:09 tcr [~tcr@host110-2.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 19:05:22 what was the function called to check the generated machine code for a specific function? i forgot. 19:05:25 -!- mutley89 [~mutley89@cpc1-hudd6-0-0-cust741.4-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:05:41 madnificent: no such thing 19:06:18 there was something that showed what ASM code the cpu would execute... 19:06:29 and it's something obvious so i'm asking the wrong question somehow 19:06:29 disassemble? 19:06:30 clhs disassemble 19:06:30 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_disass.htm 19:06:35 yes! thanks! 19:06:37 that was a confusing way to describe it 19:06:55 stassats: i couldn't find terms in the context. but yes it was. 19:07:10 <3 lisp, where answering is like a race 19:07:52 -!- antgreen [~user@out-on-140.wireless.telus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:08:09 hrm. so VLM/genera doesn't seem to pay attention to the cold boot geometry at all. got the window it pops up before the hang to be smaller but that didn't really help much. 19:08:15 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:08:50 pmetzger: why don't you do something useful instead? 19:09:11 because I enjoy useless things so much more. 19:09:13 pmetzger: did you do the timeserver dance properly? 19:09:25 Yes. I have the time server running on the local host properly. 19:09:31 and I have the date set to before y2k 19:09:49 none of the walkthroughs I've read said anything about the X window manager/server hanging. :) 19:09:51 pmetzger: that is not strictly required. do you see the vlm's requests on the timeserver? 19:09:54 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:08 H4ns: hard to tell. I can't run another window to do a tcpdump. :) 19:10:10 pmetzger: uh, it hangs your x server? 19:10:15 yes. :) 19:10:23 debian testing is what I put in the vm 19:10:23 pmetzger: well. [x] you're screwed 19:10:32 I doubt I'm entirely screwed. I can debug this. 19:10:37 it just requires effort. 19:10:42 install an x server from 2005 19:10:50 pmetzger: well. if that is the kind of useless thing you enjoy? :) 19:10:51 is there a known issue with recent x servers? 19:10:52 or do something useful 19:10:58 pmetzger: yes 19:11:10 do you know what the issue is? 19:11:15 pmetzger: i've not tried in a while. you've probably read my walkthrough. 19:11:31 no 19:11:32 H4ns: URL? (then I can confirm that I have.) 19:11:48 it was working somewhere in 2006 and then stopped 19:11:50 stassats: well, thanks anyway. :) 19:11:53 pmetzger: http://www.cliki.net/VLM_on_Linux 19:11:58 or was it 2007 19:12:00 yah, read that one. 19:12:11 thanks for writing it btw. 19:12:24 pmetzger: sure. i'm into cool useless things sometimes, too. 19:12:33 pmetzger: well. i'm a lisp programmer, so most of the time. 19:12:40 :) 19:13:16 btw, why does the *emulator* go nuts if the time is before Y2K? 19:13:34 (I can understand the system having a Y2K bug but the emulator I would imagine just plays virtual ivory machine or what have you.) 19:13:57 pmetzger: i can only guess that it has something to do with the virtual real time clock 19:14:10 not having sources to the genera executable is unfortunate. 19:14:28 pmetzger: indeed. you might ask brad parker for them, though. 19:14:30 If I can get it up long enough to look at the sources to the alpha emulator maybe I can do something about that. 19:14:46 does he ever appear here? 19:14:49 pmetzger: no 19:14:59 pmetzger: NetBSD no more? 19:15:16 My NetBSD hacking at the moment is rather bizarre. :) 19:15:39 I'm working on a system to allow the porting of the kernel from C to a new language without much pain. Very very long story. 19:15:58 snearch [~snearch@f053008189.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:16:11 I decided to give myself a treat after working on a paper for two weeks and bring up a lispm. haven't touched a real one in decades. 19:16:41 So, C->JavaScript, then a Lisp machine! 19:16:48 *ChibaPet* ducks. 19:16:48 not quite. :) 19:16:53 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.164] has joined #lisp 19:17:01 though there is a c to javascript system out there 19:17:05 it is based on llvm 19:17:15 worse, it will compile C++ to Javascript 19:17:23 shit, it's not [a-z0-9]+, _ are ok in there and god knows what (inquiring soon) 19:17:51 I have a copy of the opengenera source tape, and I can split out the individual files on it, but they're all in symbolics encryption format 19:18:09 I figure once I get the lispm up I can read that or at least see how to hack some code to uncompress them. 19:19:04 pmetzger: maybe try xvfb? 19:19:45 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@213.175.106.134] has quit [Quit: Out of this 3D] 19:19:47 how would I then view the virtual frame buffer? 19:19:49 vnc? 19:20:18 pmetzger: something like that. i've not done that myself, but it may be worth a shot. 19:20:29 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.66.141] has left #lisp 19:20:40 I believe Faré uses VNC, but he's busy right now so I can't really ask him questions. 19:20:43 pmetzger: or run ubuntu 6.06 in a virtual machine. 19:20:44 (just had a kid.) 19:20:55 uh, didn't hear that. 19:21:03 Ubuntu 6.06 is known to work? 19:21:13 he's here some times, and also participates on mailing lists, so he can't be _that_ busy 19:21:20 "finding necrotic linux dists to run necrotic symbolics emulators..." 19:21:26 i've used ubuntu 6.06 successfully. 19:21:29 it was literally a couple of days ago. 19:21:44 he sent me some tips and then vanished into fatherhood. 19:21:46 ah, ok. 19:21:46 Oh, he reproduced. Nice. He was close at the recent Lisp dinner. 19:21:57 Or his wife anyway. 19:22:16 I was about to say "he never really showed much, not even after 8 months" but you cut me off. :) 19:22:27 jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:58 what year was ubuntu 6.06? Maybe I can find a necrotic debian. I prefer that. :) 19:23:09 and I could steal the X server from it and just put it on the current machine. 19:23:18 i have an yggdrasil disc somewhere, i could send you an iso :p 19:23:28 pmetzger: ubuntu 6.06 was *drumroll* 2006 19:23:28 -!- tcr [~tcr@host110-2.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:23:29 you're all heart. :) 19:23:32 tcr [~tcr@host110-2.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 19:23:34 Duh. 19:23:42 Of course. I keep forgetting the annual versioning system. 19:23:45 June of 2006, even. 19:25:44 ChibaPet: you still hacking NetBSD? 19:26:34 I was stolen away by Debian over a decade ago now. Not doing much OS-related lately. 19:27:00 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:27:55 I mostly use Debian on my servers now. 19:28:12 I blame pkgsores for it. 19:28:17 But anyway. 19:28:34 hagish [~hagish@p57BCF9FC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:06 -!- Guest67772 [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:30:44 xristos [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has joined #lisp 19:30:48 -!- xristos is now known as Guest67008 19:31:13 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:32:06 I blame many things. Mistakes were made. 19:32:10 Radium_ [~rajesh.na@117.203.6.60] has joined #lisp 19:32:46 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:35:33 -!- edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:36:23 the X people say that almost certainly what is happening is that a server grab was requested but never released. 19:36:30 this is helpful... 19:37:26 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128060076.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 19:37:52 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:38:02 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.93] has joined #lisp 19:38:05 -!- tcr [~tcr@host110-2.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:42:13 michael_alex [~michael@nat10-222.cs.ucdavis.edu] has joined #lisp 19:43:00 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:44:01 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@63.130.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:44:27 -!- zxq9 [~zxq9@FL1-119-244-163-13.okn.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:46:41 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:47:43 how do you compare vectors? I want equal for vector? 19:48:17 clhs equalp 19:48:18 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_equalp.htm 19:48:42 clhs mismatch 19:48:43 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mismat.htm 19:49:26 and it's available for make-hash-table, nice 19:49:48 I'm trying babel:string-to-octects rather than parse-integer as base37 with _ is not given 19:50:17 abd 12 or 16 bytes, I guess that with alignment it's about the same on an 8 byte machine 19:50:30 but that I don't know (ccl hash tables specifics?) 19:51:00 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:52:30 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:52:51 m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.189] has joined #lisp 19:57:50 cabaire [~nobody@p549407CB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:57:59 maxm-: so you were right on spot with babel re-encoding, except that I'm winning factor 4 here thanks to CCL using 32 bits per character 19:58:02 http://ccl.clozure.com/manual/chapter4.5.html 20:02:45 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:03:40 You know what'd be neat? Arglist hinting in SLIME for postmodern S-SQL forms. Dare I hope that that's been added while I wasn't paying attention? 20:04:53 Is there a reason why SLIME doesn't complete variables bound with LET inside the LET? (i.e. (let ((foo 5)) (+ f)) should show "foo" as a possible completion) 20:05:18 (or rather why SWANK doesn't provide this completion, I guess) 20:05:31 nyef: shouldn't be too complex, should it? in sexml it was fairly straightforward to add an alternative attributelist 20:05:59 ecraven: slime completes any symbol it knows, if that symbol hasn't been used before it doesn't complete it yet 20:06:13 ecraven: M-/ ftw 20:06:41 yeah, +1 for M-/ 20:06:52 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:06:52 I'm not a big fan of M-/, actually. It seems to be a little weird whenever I've tried it. 20:06:59 *madnificent* forgot about M-/ 20:06:59 *H4ns* loves it. 20:07:07 M-/ runs the command hippie-expand 20:07:12 hm.. if swank:completions would send the current form (and not only the current symbol) this could be implemented too 20:07:26 that's an alternative that I got used to, I'm not even sure it's that better to the default, but I won't change it :) 20:07:27 dim: by default, it runs dabbrev-expand 20:07:27 damn hippies taking over emacs 20:07:42 ah good 20:07:45 I only learned about M-/ like three years ago. have been using it constantly since. :) 20:08:36 it's awesome how efficient and simple it is :) 20:08:39 gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:08:46 hippie-expand only adds support for completing file names I guess 20:09:09 hippies expand as they get older if they don't watch their diet 20:09:18 hm.. amazing how I never knew about M-/ until 22:06 today :-/ 20:09:23 by that rule I'm a hippy, pmetzger :) 20:09:30 ecraven: congrats, you're one of 10,000 20:09:40 ecraven: lurking on #emacs can be a good idea 20:09:41 H4ns: xkcd for the win. 20:09:58 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:10:22 M-/ never got in my muscles, must train more. 20:10:24 -!- minion [~minion@pppoe.95-55-188-131.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:10:27 minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-71-10.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 20:10:29 *madnificent* LVL KBD 20:10:29 well makes me feel better for not remembering pushnew and writing (unless (member item list) (push ...)) for years 20:10:54 M-/ also makes M-x shell win over M-x term 20:11:08 -!- specbot [~specbot@pppoe.95-55-188-131.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:11:12 specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-71-10.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 20:11:16 its all relative, I remember facepalming upon showing Syntel tester that you can paste into terminal window 20:11:30 he was testing XML interface, and retyping 1-2k XML documents into the dos window 20:11:38 !!!! 20:12:28 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:12:47 consuming a quarter of the memory is a good diet for that script, it seems to be running so much more smoothly 20:13:02 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:26 60 shards, 800MB, looks good 20:13:38 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:13:39 should run in less than 4GB that time :) 20:14:16 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-11-91.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 20:15:10 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-194-136.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:16:36 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-194-136.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:17:07 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:17:39 -!- TimKack` [~user@c-2ec20125-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:18:10 TimKack` [~user@c-2ec20125-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 20:18:18 -!- fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:18:49 actually, context-sensitive completion would be useful :) was this ever discussed for slime? 20:20:25 fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 20:20:53 -!- cabaire [~nobody@p549407CB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: n8] 20:22:13 -!- pnq [~nick@AC82FC3F.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:22:26 I find that in practice M-/ works well enough not to want context-sensitive completion that much 20:22:33 -!- TimKack` is now known as TimKack 20:23:21 well, (in-package :) would be more useful with custom completion (and it wouldn't be too hard to implement, would it?) 20:23:52 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-41.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:24:59 pnq [~nick@AC82FC3F.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 20:25:58 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053008189.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 20:27:38 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m90-141-35-110.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 20:30:15 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:30:15 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.193.157.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:31:38 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:32:08 -!- pnq [~nick@AC82FC3F.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:37:14 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.121.61.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:40:25 this babel:string-to-octects is impressively efficient 20:40:27 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:42:17 http://umitanuki.hatenablog.com/entry/2012/05/11/025816 20:42:30 guys, who's interrested into doing PL/CL or maybe even PL/ECL? 20:42:51 I wonder if it would be possible for PL/ECL to have access to all the PostgreSQL backend exported C functions 20:43:03 that would allow for a fantastic rapid prototyping environment 20:43:05 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@189.40.17.200] has joined #lisp 20:43:22 dim: Sounds like you're volunteering! 20:43:32 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 20:43:56 what does PL/CL give you? 20:44:11 writing triggers using CL, for example. 20:44:12 does V8 still call _exit() on syscall errors ? I wouldn't trust it inside a DB process 20:44:22 sykopomp: ENOTIME 20:44:36 dim: do you have money to fund such an effort, then? :D 20:44:59 sykopomp: is it important to write triggers using CL? 20:45:08 not yet but if/when I stumble on a customer who does CL, I'll get back with an offer :) 20:46:11 stassats`: depends on how complex what you're doing is. At my last job, I had the unfortunate privilege of writing some good chunks of pl/pgsql. Considering the effort it would take me to write PL/CL, I would probably just use PL/Scheme for something like that -- but I wouldn't mind using PL/CL if it existed. 20:46:19 stassats`: it allows to have integrity checks and other business rules running in the database side of things 20:46:32 i prefer database running in my CL image 20:46:35 and using the same language in the database and in the application and in the frontend is pretty cool 20:46:55 stassats`: why not have both? 20:47:01 why have both? 20:47:32 because sometime you would prefer to alter table add check run-my-cl-code(); 20:47:48 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@63.130.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 20:47:50 so that your trigger is running with the same code as your application 20:47:51 well, my database is written in CL 20:48:08 then I don't know why you're enteriting the PL/CL discussion 20:48:17 what he said. 20:48:27 obviously if you're not considering to use PostgreSQL that's of very limited interest 20:48:44 strange logic 20:49:19 mmm, do you understand what PL/CL is about? 20:49:29 no 20:49:34 *sykopomp* exits conversation before it devolves into aggressive questioning about why I like pg over rucksack. 20:49:38 i don't have a problem using languages other than CL 20:49:43 that might explain why you find that logic quite strange 20:49:55 rucksack? 20:50:01 stassats`: pl/pgsql is pretty awful to code, mind you. 20:50:17 but as long as $reasonable_lang can replace it, it's probably Good Enough. 20:50:33 sykopomp: that's not always the reason to prefer other language, it's all about sharing code and choosing where you run your code 20:50:52 sykopomp: i hear that pl/pgsql is not the only one available 20:50:57 also the main advantage about pl/pgsql is that sql is first class 20:51:09 stassats`: so, why not have cl as a choice there? 20:51:19 stassats`: correct. There's pl/py, pl/scheme, and a number of others. 20:51:22 dim: because it's not available? 20:51:25 yet 20:51:30 it's not hard to change that 20:51:43 see my comment above about how I would probably not bother writing pl/cl unless I was bored and thought it made a fun weekend project. 20:51:45 it's easier not to 20:52:12 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:52:29 pl/python, pl/perl, pl/tcl, pl/sql, pl/c and pl/pgsql are maintained with postgresql itself, then you can easily find pl/scheme, pl/php, pl/java, pl/v8, pl/lua and some more 20:52:42 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:52:42 I keep wondering why pl/cl didn't make it in the list (or pl/erlang, too) 20:54:24 dim: think harder 20:55:09 fe[nl]ix: I won't guess what you have in mind, if it's not "nobody got interested into doing it" 20:55:35 Siphonblast [~Siphonbla@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:23 pkhuong: it seems with babel:string-to-octects we're back in the 1.3GB realm, so near the guesstimate :) 20:56:37 dim: all the language runtime environments you mentioned before were more or less explicitly designed to be embeddable in a C program 20:56:40 even the JVM 20:56:50 ok, what about ECL? 20:57:12 while most CLs and Erlang are autarchic 20:57:28 ECL is as niche as you can get, it has very few users 20:58:01 Erlang gives you 3 different ways to interact with C, either with communication channel or with a "port" or with a way to make your C code seen as an Erlang node 20:58:02 IIRC 20:58:20 ECL being niche I didn't know about, ok 20:59:08 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-194-136.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:59:21 so the only CL easy to embed in C would be ECL and very few people are using that, that's your hint here? 20:59:33 ECL is not very nice to use 20:59:37 so it appears that what is happening is that VLM tries to twiddle the keyboard map immediately after setting a grab on the x server. the request fails, and VLM then goes into space. 20:59:52 who says it is impossible to debug code that you have no access to, eh? :) 20:59:54 Matt_____ [6c0410fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.4.16.252] has joined #lisp 21:00:05 pmetzger: nobody 21:00:09 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 21:00:33 I'm slightly confused by this (http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/tggik/an_american_court_has_ruled_that_software_cant_be/). does this mean that all source code is open source automatically? I'm not quite sure how to interpret the court's decision... 21:00:48 ah, no, it is failing on something else.... 21:00:51 bbiaf 21:00:55 Matt_____: #lisp is not your lawyer 21:01:05 alright, nvm 21:01:05 -!- Matt_____ [6c0410fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.4.16.252] has quit [Client Quit] 21:01:10 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@189.40.17.200] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:01:47 how odd 21:02:02 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@adsl-90-150-20-62.nojabrsk.ru] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 21:02:26 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:04:08 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:04:09 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-194-136.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:04:38 ebw [~user@krlh-4d021f95.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:23 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 21:06:11 Can someone help running the tests on cffi? make test-sbcl complains about missing rt but that should only be used on ecl, shouldn't it? 21:07:24 no 21:07:47 on ecl we use the bundled copy, otherwise you need to fetch it 21:10:32 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:16:46 ikki [~ikki@187.193.157.109] has joined #lisp 21:20:55 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 21:21:22 quit 21:21:25 -!- ebw [~user@krlh-4d021f95.pool.mediaWays.net] has left #lisp 21:22:31 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:23:23 -!- dekuked [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:24:12 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:24:28 fe[nl]ix: are you a ECL de? 21:24:34 s/de/dev 21:25:18 no 21:25:30 cia 21:25:31 ciao 21:25:33 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:25:47 Guthur: there can only be one 21:25:52 ah ok, when you said "on ecl we use..." I assumed you might be 21:26:06 i assumed "we" as an "cffi" 21:26:15 stassats`: yeah I understand it's pretty much all Juan 21:26:35 stassats's correct 21:27:04 ah yes 21:27:13 ok, as you were, hehe 21:28:52 [when running] on ecl [,] we[(cffi devs) have made cffi] use the bundled copy 21:29:09 ... 21:29:17 :D 21:29:37 contextful english 21:29:44 like it 21:30:13 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.164] has joined #lisp 21:30:43 you should try some Japanese :) 21:31:35 -!- gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:31:48 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 21:32:12 on the ECL front, Juan gave a nice talk at ELS on it's development 21:32:22 konichi 21:32:29 hua 21:35:45 CampinSam [~user@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:35:45 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:38:31 -!- jdz [~jdz@host214-107-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Byebye.] 21:44:42 what about the ECL fork someone was announcing milestone on on c.l.l 21:44:58 it was something or other about threading now fully works etc 21:45:05 huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has joined #lisp 21:45:42 damn I forgot to bookmark it and forgot the name 21:45:47 mkcl 21:45:50 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:46:01 do you guys share code and such? 21:46:30 hahahaha 21:46:41 mu 21:46:50 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@dhcp-140-247-179-53.fas.harvard.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:47:55 guess that means no? 21:47:56 ... and the student was enlightened 21:48:07 robolobster54 [~robolobst@77.241.58.140] has joined #lisp 21:48:25 that means the question is bad 21:48:33 github makes it too easy to fork projects, with it was harder 21:48:55 not really, it just makes forks a little more visible 21:48:56 imho too easy forking causes too much fragmentation, rather then communication with the author and trying to fix stuff 21:49:19 maxm-: then de-fragment the situation 21:49:41 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-86-216-175.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:49:44 imho that "fix it yourself" is exactly whats wrong, so everyone fixes it themself, but in a slightly different way 21:49:55 I took responsibility of fiveam 21:50:53 well all the libs I use none are abandoned really... Well commonqt is a bit, but stassats seems to be designated maintainer, so i don't wanna go against original author wishes 21:51:31 so apparently some of the keycode handling got rewritten. I'm talking in another channel to the guy who did it now... 21:51:43 *maxm-* sees no activity from demacs guy, so I'm thinking of picking that up, but actually just writing a clone, since main problem with the library is its name, and everyone thinks its something for emacs 21:53:08 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-088-069-043-179.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:55:48 ledai [~lda@27.Red-83-61-37.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:34 maxm-: I immediately thought it was something to do with emacs 21:57:55 demacs made me think someone was trying to de-emacs CL dev 21:58:15 maybe it's "dirty emacs" 21:58:16 Guthur: its actually an CLOS based re-implementation of cl-def, class-star and such.. Also hu.dwim.definer is basically same syntax, except code is horrible 21:58:44 demacs has very clean CLOS based design, making it easy to make your own definers or add flags to existing ones 21:59:24 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@ct1corp.globo.com] has joined #lisp 22:00:20 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 22:00:47 maxm-: well, that's one opinion... :) also, a random clos dispatch is not necessarily cleaner than a hashtable, when all you need is a mapping. especially if the hashtable is behind a trivial API 22:00:58 hi attila_lendvai :) 22:01:01 name stands for "(de)finer (mac)ro(s) actually.. Guy who wrote is Turkish twin of pjb (with huge his own library collection) 22:01:23 hello fe[nl]ix 22:01:37 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:02:08 Hi, is there some place where I can read about the CLOS design and any other OO systems that were designed for Lisp before CLOS? 22:02:17 attila_lendvai: random clos dispatch, sounds an interest way code 22:02:26 interesting* 22:02:43 (I'm particularly interested in prototype-based OO if there was any attempt to introduce it in Lisp) 22:02:55 attila_lendvai: ok, show me based on your's a thing like http://paste.lisp.org/display/129396 22:03:10 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:03:11 ledai: sheeple is the only prototype OO for CL I know 22:03:20 sykopomp was a developer 22:03:23 above allows me to run (def (function q) wahtever ()) lambda list and body through (%with-qt) muncher 22:03:43 Guthur: thanks :) 22:04:12 actually probably initialize-definer is wrong place to do it, but it was 1 minute hack to get it working, so why change it if it works 22:04:27 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:06:15 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.167.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:07:47 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:09:03 ledai: KR is a classic POO library with a constraint system. There's also dto's prototype-system-formerly-known-as-clon (https://github.com/dto/blocky/blob/master/prototypes.lisp), and I want to say ObjectLisp was another, but that might be the wrong name. 22:09:09 maxm-: I usually don't get into these competitions... so, you won. and also, I'm not especially proud of the codebase of hu.dwim.def, so... it's more of a quick hack that serves us well, than a lib I'd be bragging with. 22:09:42 guyal_ [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:48 slyrus__ [~chatzilla@99-28-161-110.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:51 acieroid` [~acieroid@wtf.awesom.eu] has joined #lisp 22:09:57 hiredman_ [~hiredman@ip67-152-53-125.z53-152-67.customer.algx.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:57 sykopomp: yes, I've searched a bit about ObjectLisp, although I couldn't find a manual or otherwise any relevant document. 22:10:13 sykopomp: thanks for the pointers. :) 22:10:16 -!- xan__ [~xan@80.174.78.163.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:10:24 alvis`` [~user@tx-184-6-180-2.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:28 ledai: KR and 'prototypes' are both, iirc, more 'message-passing' oriented, whereas Sheeple tried to be more like CLOS and have an object + generic function design. 22:10:51 ledai: the only thing I remember about ObjectLisp is a blog post/web page demonstrating how to draw a little solar system simulation. 22:10:51 attila_lendvai: nothing against it, I did not mean to diss you with "code is horrible" comment, sorry, that came out wrong. My main point of mentioning it was to preventive defence against someone saying "why don't you just use hu.dwim.def" 22:11:29 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.94.78] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:11:39 ahhhh 22:11:49 lemoinem [~swoog@199.180.99.172] has joined #lisp 22:11:52 http://www.mactech.com/articles/mactech/Vol.06/06.08/PearlLisp/index.html 22:12:05 -!- hiredman [~hiredman@ip67-152-53-125.z53-152-67.customer.algx.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:12:08 -!- hiredman_ is now known as hiredman 22:12:11 -!- dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:12:11 -!- acieroid [~acieroid@wtf.awesom.eu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:12:12 -!- alvis` [~user@tx-184-6-180-2.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:12:26 ledai_ [~lda@48.Red-88-18-195.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:12:28 -!- prip [~foo@host117-121-dynamic.47-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:12:35 no repo for demacs? 22:12:49 So ObjectLisp is also more message-passing-flavored. 22:12:55 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@99-28-161-110.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:13:00 *maxm-* is watching google hangout related to startups, and holy cows, either I don't understand things, or some ppl have no hope... "our project is a tool for corporation to predict, how a new hire will affect an existing team dynamic based on personality types of a team" 22:13:13 just to prove me wrong they will be bought by facebook for 1 bil 22:13:14 prip [~foo@host117-121-dynamic.47-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 22:13:16 (Sheeple is the only prototype system for CL I know of that supports multiple dispatch, for that matter) 22:13:21 ah, it's buried deep: https://github.com/vy/demacs.git 22:13:38 -!- guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:13:38 -!- guyal_ is now known as guyal 22:14:45 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:14:51 sykopomp: yes I'm more interested in alternatives to the usual generic functions. 22:15:00 attila_lendvai: if you actually incorporate that design, and add all futures of your thing, that would be awesome :-) IMHO "wrap all my functions with a special flag" with something, is a powerful tool 22:15:12 I'm looking to dto's system. :) 22:15:26 -!- ledai [~lda@27.Red-83-61-37.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:15:31 attila_lendvai: first thing I would do, is to add CLOS dispatch on *package*, so one can add flags to existing definers without shadowing 22:15:33 -!- ledai_ is now known as ledai 22:16:12 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:22 ledai: ILHYS 'usual' 22:16:50 maxm-: you mean adding the hddef features to the demacs framework? 22:16:56 sykopomp: it's ILTWYS! 22:17:03 *ledai* looking in a dict for 'ILHYS'. 22:17:04 ie my code would have become a single method.. (def method demacs:expand-definer ((definer function-like-definer) (package (eql (find-package :my-package)))) rather then using shadowing 22:17:13 (sorry, I'm not english-native) 22:17:18 stassats`: that one 22:17:26 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 22:17:39 elts! 22:17:40 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:17:41 ledai: neither am I. stassats` isn't, either. :D 22:17:44 fwiw 22:17:46 attila_lendvai: yea.. I don't know how many features you have, only from briefly looking at your code, but the ones I liked were using (def ) to define new definers 22:17:52 VieiraN [~VieiraN@177.103.136.5] has joined #lisp 22:17:52 :) 22:17:56 ledai: ILTWYS is "I Like The Way You Say", usually applied to underestimation of things 22:18:20 oh, thanks :) 22:18:26 it's #lisp-speak 22:18:34 long-forgotten 22:18:48 one can imagine stuff like automatically wrap (def (function and s/Like/Love/ 22:19:15 maxm-: I'm not against the idea, but as things are we won't run major refactorings on our codebase... so I probably won't jump on the task 22:19:24 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@ct1corp.globo.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:20:21 minion: what does ILTWYS stand for? 22:20:21 Isle Limurite Teamless Westerly Yed Superroyal 22:20:31 attila_lendvai: I mean to write a better replacement for it myself, since all my stuff I want to release depends on it, was trying to see if someone else could be persuaded 22:20:32 close enough 22:21:00 ILTWYS that minion :) 22:21:12 maxm-: the best stuff in hddef is the with-macro definer, that emits a call-with-... and a very thin macro, so that the defun can be redefined at runtime and also keep the code size small for complex with-... macros 22:21:16 minion: chant 22:21:16 MORE INTERESTED 22:21:27 ah thats actually a cool idea 22:22:19 attila_lendvai: does it also have the (declaim inline)/(declaim notinline) trick? 22:22:44 whats the trick 22:23:19 the with-macro stuff is not especially simple, but I think the complexity is worth it 22:23:29 rstill [~rstill@12.104.144.2] has joined #lisp 22:23:35 pkhuong: if you mean this, then hddef has a :inline :possible flag 22:23:43 maxm-: declaim inline before the definition, so that the implementation can store the appropriate metadata, declaim notinline after so that it's not inlined by default. Local inline declarations will then DTRT. 22:23:47 -!- Radium_ [~rajesh.na@117.203.6.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:24:01 or just sb-ext:maybe-inline on SBCL. 22:24:02 (def (function :inline :possible) ...) 22:24:30 ah thats pretty cool 22:24:41 attila_lendvai: right; I find that particularly useful for call-with-foo wrapped by with-foo macros. 22:24:48 so you can (locally) declaim it inline in critical code? 22:24:53 maxm-: right. 22:24:58 locally declare, that is. 22:25:24 pkhuong: maybe inline will be inlined with speed 3 22:25:34 stassats`: yes, even better (: 22:26:03 well, (def with-macro ...) doesn't support it, but I've added a note for the next time when it's changed. I don't remember using with-macro ever in performance critical situations. 22:26:50 KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has joined #lisp 22:29:28 Radium_ [~rajesh.na@117.203.6.60] has joined #lisp 22:30:13 -!- setmeaway2 [setmeaway@118.45.149.126] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:30:28 setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.126] has joined #lisp 22:33:40 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-194-136.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:34:45 lolsuper_ [~super_@pool-96-254-154-58.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:45 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@pool-96-254-154-58.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:34:46 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 22:35:17 -!- harish [~harish@cm50.beta157.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:35:59 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-146-156.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:36:29 pnq [~nick@ACA2422D.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 22:36:46 -!- Radium_ [~rajesh.na@117.203.6.60] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:39:56 Radium_ [~rajesh.na@117.203.6.60] has joined #lisp 22:41:20 francogrex [~user@109.130.14.176] has joined #lisp 22:42:48 Hi stassats` , I manage to connect my my phone to my desktop and enable adb... how did you install the armcl on your device, what terminal emulator did you need? 22:43:28 DataLinkDroid [~David@120.154.185.178] has joined #lisp 22:45:01 -!- Radium_ [~rajesh.na@117.203.6.60] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:45:55 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:46:29 -!- ledai [~lda@48.Red-88-18-195.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ledai] 22:47:33 DDR [~chatzilla@d142-179-78-231.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:04 -!- cheier [~chris@64.129.86.8] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 22:48:13 Radium_ [~rajesh.na@117.203.6.60] has joined #lisp 22:49:43 Lazik [~Lazik@unaffiliated/lazik] has joined #lisp 22:51:25 -!- jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:52:21 -!- abbe [lostcase@2a01:4f8:131:13c1:abbe:abbe:abbe:abbe] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:52:21 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:52:51 abbe [lostcase@2a01:4f8:131:13c1:abbe:abbe:abbe:abbe] has joined #lisp 22:52:58 -!- abbe [lostcase@2a01:4f8:131:13c1:abbe:abbe:abbe:abbe] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:53:19 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-103-044.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 22:54:25 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 22:55:00 -!- Radium_ [~rajesh.na@117.203.6.60] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:56:32 -!- Matt_S_G [~Matt_S_G@gateway/tor-sasl/mattsg/x-78535695] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8-dev] 22:56:51 ashish [lostcase@freebsd/developer/ashish] has joined #lisp 22:57:52 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:58:12 Radium_ [~rajesh.na@117.203.6.60] has joined #lisp 22:58:13 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:58:38 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:59:16 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-194.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:00:28 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:01:33 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.14.176] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:05:05 -!- Radium_ [~rajesh.na@117.203.6.60] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:07:16 armcl? or ABCL? 23:08:00 weh ? 23:08:05 there's an arm port of cl ? 23:08:17 Radium_ [~rajesh.na@117.203.6.60] has joined #lisp 23:08:46 and he's gone 23:10:12 :) 23:11:30 felideon: there are several CL implementations targetting various versions of ARM. 23:12:17 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 23:12:49 -!- Radium_ [~rajesh.na@117.203.6.60] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:14:18 -!- hagish [~hagish@p57BCF9FC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:16:11 Radium_ [~rajesh.na@117.203.6.60] has joined #lisp 23:18:02 homie asked, but good to know. 23:21:29 heh 23:21:44 i could only get ecl to work on android 23:21:54 native code 23:22:07 not java bytecode....ported.... 23:22:46 and clojure works too, afaik i only have the android-sdk compiled version of it 23:22:54 BlankVerse [~pankajm@FLH9Aab022.nra.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 23:27:25 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:27:36 -!- kilon [~kilon@178.128.38.36.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:29:36 -!- rstill [~rstill@12.104.144.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:30:13 -!- BigHugeDog [~QQ@218.58.12.207] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:31:08 -!- Radium_ [~rajesh.na@117.203.6.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:31:33 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:31:58 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:13 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:32:59 -!- Yuuhi``` [benni@p5483B869.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:34:22 Radium_ [~rajesh.na@117.203.6.60] has joined #lisp 23:36:31 wizdom [~wisdom@c-68-37-216-107.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:41 -!- wizdom [~wisdom@c-68-37-216-107.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:39:11 wizdom [~wisdom@c-68-37-216-107.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:19 -!- wizdom [~wisdom@c-68-37-216-107.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:39:44 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.203.36] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:40:04 wizdom [~wisdom@c-68-37-216-107.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:49 tensorpudding [~michael@99.102.71.223] has joined #lisp 23:41:03 -!- Radium_ [~rajesh.na@117.203.6.60] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:43:57 -!- wizdom [~wisdom@c-68-37-216-107.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:44:15 Radium_ [~rajesh.na@117.203.6.60] has joined #lisp 23:44:19 wizdom [~wisdom@c-68-37-216-107.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:41 -!- wizdom [~wisdom@c-68-37-216-107.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:45:05 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:45:43 wizdom [~wisdom@c-68-37-216-107.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:10 -!- wizdom [~wisdom@c-68-37-216-107.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:49:24 arrsim [~user@ppp118-209-64-7.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:02 ledai [~lda@205.Red-88-18-194.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:06 hyPiRion [~jeannikl@178.21.132.8] has joined #lisp 23:54:08 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:54:09 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@188-143-58-245.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 23:54:09 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 23:54:19 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 23:54:31 dnolen` [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:57:27 -!- prip [~foo@host117-121-dynamic.47-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:58:09 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]