00:00:33 jaxtr [~vazakl@22.50.5646.static.theplanet.com] has joined #lisp 00:02:32 gigamonkey_ [~gigamonke@adsl-99-184-207-18.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:52 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:03:07 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-108-200-140-20.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:03:07 -!- gigamonkey_ is now known as gigamonkey 00:03:36 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.235.6] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 00:04:21 Is Pascal around? 00:04:30 Pascal who? 00:04:38 Costanza 00:04:42 no 00:06:18 -!- Ralith [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:08:00 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@178-164-240-158.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 00:08:07 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:09:30 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:09:57 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.143.27] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.95.1] 00:12:17 nydel [~jo@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:18 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-244.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:39 -!- attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@178-164-240-158.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:13:57 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-244.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:14:24 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:15:25 -!- mathrick__ is now known as mathrick 00:18:08 -!- paul0 [~paul0@200.175.60.174.dynamic.dialup.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: paul0] 00:18:41 -!- mutley89 [~mutley89@cpc1-hudd6-0-0-cust741.4-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:19:17 -!- ebobby [~fms@50-0-172-141.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:29:38 -!- daedalus_ [~Siphonbla@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:31:06 Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.100.192] has joined #lisp 00:39:38 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-rcyeakmchisluznl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:40:27 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-107-3-142-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:09 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:02 CampinSam [~Sam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:46:43 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:47:14 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@162-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:48:01 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.107] has joined #lisp 00:50:10 -!- specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-60-224.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:50:11 -!- minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-60-224.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:50:11 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:50:45 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:52:28 minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-60-224.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 00:53:10 specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-60-224.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 00:53:13 saint_cypher [~rjspotter@208.178.63.106] has joined #lisp 00:58:25 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.202.179] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:58:36 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 00:59:43 francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176432497.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:00:01 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Client Quit] 01:01:46 -!- jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:03:51 -!- ysph [~user@adsl-065-013-204-170.sip.mgm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:03:58 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-184-207-18.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 01:05:08 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-184-207-18.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:10 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.183.198] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 01:05:38 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-184-207-18.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:05:48 -!- saint_cypher [~rjspotter@208.178.63.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:06:38 Jsandys [~jeff@70.103.58.197] has joined #lisp 01:06:38 jeff_ [~jeff@70.103.58.197] has joined #lisp 01:07:04 -!- jeff_ is now known as Guest12886 01:08:41 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 01:09:53 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 01:10:42 is there a standard way to make a copy of an object? (instance of a class) 01:12:49 Farzad: nope 01:13:45 there's some libraries that have a shallow copy function, but generally speaking you're better off rolling your own copy function 01:13:58 Farzad: there is a standard way: (defgeneric copy (object) (:documentation "Returns a copy of the OBJECT")) 01:14:08 Farzad: now you only have to implement methods for your objects. 01:14:10 -!- achiu1 [~achiu@ip68-96-95-213.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:14:17 i need some sort of an undo after some slots are changed 01:14:29 the class might not be mine 01:15:03 Farzad: (defmethod copy ((self not-my-class)) (make-instance 'not-my-class : )) 01:15:31 stlifey [~stlifey@121.11.119.197] has joined #lisp 01:15:57 no i'm thingking of someone else using this thing, i dont want to force him to define a copy method 01:16:58 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-wjloavuosmsgxamm] has joined #lisp 01:17:10 MOP trickery 01:17:20 Farzad: Then you might want to find some of the libraries that dlowe mentioned, or start looking into the MOP  but there be dragons. 01:17:26 Farzad: then define it yourself!! 01:17:38 (not in the MOP, per se, but in writing a COPY) 01:17:54 Farzad: Please read: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html 01:17:59 Although, the MOP can be dragony itself. 01:18:24 i got some exp with MOP now, tell me where i should look 01:19:07 Farzad: *-slot, basically. 01:19:23 direct- and effective-slot. 01:19:48 -definition  _that's_ what's at the end. 01:19:56 I knew I could do it without picking up AMOP :) 01:20:14 -!- rstill` [~rstill@c-98-244-15-175.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:20:57 sellout: are you saying that i should force a metaclass now? 01:21:12 Farzad: What? No. 01:22:03 Farzad, if you have a class, you can get its slot definitions, and use that to collect all the values for the slots and create a new instance from them. 01:22:44 that does not need any *-slot-def method 01:23:03 just sb-mop:class-slots 01:23:30 and i got the list so i can make a new one 01:23:30 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:24:11 so? is this the way to do it? 01:26:19 -!- Guest12886 [~jeff@70.103.58.197] has left #lisp 01:27:02 Farzad: Right, but CLASS-SLOTS returns EFFECTIVE-SLOT-DEFINITION objects. 01:27:23 Farzad: Yep, you're in the right place. 01:27:32 Kron [~Kron@69.166.22.139] has joined #lisp 01:27:53 Farzad: But you might want to use the Closer-MOP library instead of SB-MOP if you want non-SBCL users to be able to use it. 01:28:01 -!- Kron [~Kron@69.166.22.139] has quit [Client Quit] 01:28:12 Kron [~Kron@69.166.22.139] has joined #lisp 01:28:29 sellout: ok thank you 01:28:51 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:30:09 ISF [~ivan@187.106.49.167] has joined #lisp 01:31:24 Farzad: I have what you need, but the lib is somewhat weird as its assorted mishmash of utilities.. See https://github.com/7max/cl-maxlib specifically copy-instance 01:31:48 it has generics for copying each slot, getting list of slots to copy, etc.. By default does shallow copy of slots 01:32:03 *maxm* is using it to implement undo/reset in settings dialogs 01:32:14 -!- kanru`` [~user@61-228-151-132.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:32:28 maxm: i'll check it out thanks 01:34:49 kruhft [~user@S0106002401f331bd.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:58 drumond19 [~drumond19@186.214.50.230] has joined #lisp 01:41:50 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 01:43:55 -!- Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.100.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:45:13 ebobby [~fms@50-0-172-141.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 01:52:58 -!- jakky [jokk@2001:470:33:2::1ce] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:54:41 futuro [~user@opennic/futuro] has joined #lisp 02:01:00 -!- michael_alex [~michael@zhang.cs.ucdavis.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:02:07 -!- Jsandys [~jeff@70.103.58.197] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:04:44 francisl_ [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176432497.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:05:23 -!- francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176432497.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:05:23 -!- francisl_ is now known as francisl 02:06:48 Anyone on that has admin rights to the Alexandria repository? 02:09:14 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 02:13:15 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 02:15:06 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-244.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:41 -!- nydel [~jo@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:20:02 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 02:20:53 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 02:28:07 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-121-223-199-47.lns3.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 02:30:16 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:31:37 killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has joined #lisp 02:31:48 CrazyEddy [~hyperbola@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 02:34:54 -!- killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:37:28 killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has joined #lisp 02:39:01 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:44:03 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 02:46:02 -!- edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:48:03 achiu1 [~achiu@64.134.230.96] has joined #lisp 02:55:21 daedalus_ [~Siphonbla@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:35 -!- francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176432497.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: francisl] 02:56:26 Yuuhi` [benni@p54839E83.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:50 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:56:55 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-107-3-142-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 02:57:10 AntInfini [~AntInfini@host86-181-106-89.range86-181.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 02:57:16 testing. 1.2.3.4 02:57:19 Ah. success. 02:57:21 :) 02:57:49 ysph [~user@68-113-85-213.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:57:57 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p54839C1C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:58:15 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:58:15 -!- BrianRice [~water@75-172-21-21.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:58:23 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:58:31 BrianRice [~water@75-172-21-21.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:47 Hello anybody there? Any expert a.i coders? 02:59:33 -!- AntInfini [~AntInfini@host86-181-106-89.range86-181.btcentralplus.com] has left #lisp 03:00:26 -!- dax is now known as staffhedgehog 03:00:28 -!- BrianRice [~water@75-172-21-21.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:00:44 -!- staffhedgehog is now known as dax 03:00:45 BrianRice [~water@75-172-21-21.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:59 BrianRice` [~water@75-172-21-21.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:59 -!- BrianRice [~water@75-172-21-21.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:03:00 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 03:04:12 BrianRice` [~water@75-172-21-21.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:14 -!- BrianRice [~water@75-172-21-21.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:04:16 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 03:04:24 blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:59 -!- blackwolf 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-!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-136-40.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:50:41 -!- liushui_ [~liushui@59.50.85.26] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:52:40 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-161-110.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:56:30 slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-161-110.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:02:11 if you're making an api, should you avoid symbols that start with: [ { ? ! since they are reserved for user read-macros? 05:02:33 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 05:02:42 *|3b|* would avoid them because they aren't words :p 05:04:17 Levenson [~Levenson@193.110.239.168] has joined #lisp 05:04:17 word 05:04:22 -!- Levenson [~Levenson@193.110.239.168] has left #lisp 05:05:12 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:06:26 the ucw html generator had (I believe) a package that was nicknamed <, which looked really pretty cool in code 05:07:47 nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has joined #lisp 05:08:09 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:08:45 <|3b|> yeah, yaclml does that 05:09:31 robot-beethoven: yes, probably. 05:09:36 benny` [~benny@i577A8855.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 05:09:44 Even inside symbol names. 05:09:47 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-244.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:50 -!- benny [~benny@i577A1E82.versanet.de] has quit [Disconnected by services] 05:10:02 -!- benny` is now known as benny 05:10:11 and even ] and } 05:11:58 and you shouldn't really define reader-macros in an api? since they're not namespaced (package-spaced?), and are conflict-prone 05:12:30 <|3b|> more that they shouldn't enable them globally without user interaction 05:13:09 robot-beethoven: yes. Define a pair of macros enable-my-reader-macros disable-my-reader-macros. 05:13:57 pjb: ah, that never occurred to me 05:14:48 named-readtables! 05:15:05 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has joined #lisp 05:16:54 You should think very carefully before screwing with syntax. 05:18:45 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:18:49 Zhivago: or be doomed to thinking very carefully when I go to use it. 05:19:03 And break every ide, etc. 05:19:21 <|3b|> or be motivated to fix one or more IDEs :) 05:21:04 "hey, let's add this really cool feature and then discourage everyone from using it!" 05:21:52 -!- xjrn [~innocuous@c-67-174-244-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:27:38 jiaxi [~jiaxi@61.148.56.138] has joined #lisp 05:31:53 mrSpec [~Spec@nor75-12-82-230-65-103.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 05:31:53 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@nor75-12-82-230-65-103.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Changing host] 05:31:53 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:33:20 sacho [~sacho@79-100-58-222.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 05:34:13 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 05:37:11 -!- tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.56.169.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:37:34 jjkola_work [c064748e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.116.142] has joined #lisp 05:37:51 wyunchi` [~user@2001:250:3002:4410:a800:4ff:fe00:a04] has joined #lisp 05:38:49 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.72.159] has joined #lisp 05:39:05 wyunchi [~wyunchi@2001:250:3002:4410:a800:4ff:fe00:a04] has joined #lisp 05:39:34 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:39:55 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@99-28-161-110.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:42:29 -!- drumond19 [~drumond19@186.214.50.230] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:42:39 -!- wyunchi` [~user@2001:250:3002:4410:a800:4ff:fe00:a04] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:43:15 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-107-3-142-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:45:52 -!- vervic [~vervic@vie-078-142-131-148.dsl.sil.at] has quit [Quit: vervic] 05:47:21 wyunchi` [~user@2001:250:3002:4410:a800:4ff:fe00:a04] has joined #lisp 05:49:43 -!- wyunchi` [~user@2001:250:3002:4410:a800:4ff:fe00:a04] has left #lisp 05:50:59 sn0rri [~sn0rri@62.169.219.149] has joined #lisp 05:52:16 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-233-56-218.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:57:40 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-244.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 06:06:29 gko [~gko@220.228.255.204] has joined #lisp 06:06:51 -!- Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:08:39 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-209-215.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:09:31 jake__ [~jake@74.213.226.253] has joined #lisp 06:11:41 -!- nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:12:46 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@94.144.63.213] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:13:34 mathrick [~mathrick@94.144.63.213] has joined #lisp 06:13:35 Radium [~carbon@117.203.9.162] has joined #lisp 06:15:10 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.72.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:16:47 nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has joined #lisp 06:18:34 -!- homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-188-119.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:22:50 KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has joined #lisp 06:23:48 dropster [~Kim@port284.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 06:24:13 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-188-119.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:26:24 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 06:27:19 Farzad [Farzad@46.225.102.252] has joined #lisp 06:27:31 egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@163-71-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 06:28:21 is there a book on software design in the lispy way? 06:30:49 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.9.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:31:15 morning 06:31:27 superflit [~superflit@75-166-68-85.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:31:35 -!- nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:32:00 im started learning lisp and the easiest for me was to download lispbox which is based on clozure lisp - is there any pro cons when using that as a learning platform ? btw im using the books land of lisp and practical common lisp 06:32:04 nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has joined #lisp 06:33:50 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 06:33:50 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 06:33:50 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 06:33:59 dropster, lispbox is good, cl, runs on jvm, once you got used to emacs/slime, try sbcl too. the books are fine, but not everything is in there, read onlisp after you have some basic knowledge 06:34:07 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:34:11 ccl* 06:36:18 -!- KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:37:21 Farzad: thanks - i already have sbcl installed here too 06:37:33 Is it Paul Graham's On Lisp you mean =? 06:37:48 dropster, yep 06:39:09 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:40:11 Radium [~carbon@117.203.9.162] has joined #lisp 06:40:52 I'll get that too when I have read the other books then :) 06:41:00 -!- egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@163-71-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has left #lisp 06:41:15 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 06:41:19 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-71.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:42:07 -!- nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:42:16 one thing I wondered about is the speed of lisp, ive seen some benchmarks and it looks quite good usually - but im trying to make a chess program and here the speed is somewhat important 06:42:36 nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has joined #lisp 06:45:04 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:45:42 well ill try to make some ports from my program in c and see how it works :) 06:45:46 dropster, the rumor about lisp speed is somewhat historical, from when it was interpreted 06:46:01 now we have fully compiled lisp 06:46:19 dropster: CL makes it easy to write slow programs. C makes it easier to write incorrent programs. 06:47:37 KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has joined #lisp 06:48:01 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@dsl-stat-43-17.mmc.at] has joined #lisp 06:48:23 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-wjloavuosmsgxamm] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:49:08 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:50:58 dropster: I can offer an anecdote ... summing up all numbers from 1 to 2e9 in C and lisp. SBCL with type annotations was _faster_ than GCC 4.5 with -O3. 06:51:13 that is why im trying to learn lisp instead - already now it seems much easier to understand and write, but still in the learning basic process 06:51:48 c makes it easy to write programs that almost does as intended :-D 06:53:11 I must say that land of lisp is one of the more funny books learning books i have read 06:54:25 -!- jake__ [~jake@74.213.226.253] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:58:23 moring 06:58:30 *morning 06:58:33 *madnificent* takes a coffee 06:58:48 -!- wyunchi [~wyunchi@2001:250:3002:4410:a800:4ff:fe00:a04] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 06:59:20 achiu [~achiu@ip68-96-95-213.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:59:25 wait, is the current suggested reading path LoL -> OnLisp now, or is it still LoL -> PCL -> { stuff including OnLisp } 06:59:40 *madnificent* just made up the most hideous syntax 06:59:46 -!- Farzad [Farzad@46.225.102.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:00:17 madnificent: that's nearly graphviz, so not that bad. 07:01:02 -!- sacho [~sacho@79-100-58-222.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:01:26 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-sdussvullidlvkja] has joined #lisp 07:01:37 sacho [~sacho@79-100-58-222.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 07:02:53 mrSpec [~Spec@89-159-1-27.rev.dartybox.com] has joined #lisp 07:03:04 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-159-1-27.rev.dartybox.com] has quit [Changing host] 07:03:04 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:03:31 Bacteria [~Bacteria@14-201-67-103.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:03:59 in sbcl 1.0.56, is "./" per default in the asdf:*central-registry*? 07:04:11 flip214: now that i know what package put it in my brain, i find it a bit sadder than i used to :/ 07:06:32 kilon [~user@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 07:07:05 -!- sacho [~sacho@79-100-58-222.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:07:36 sacho [~sacho@79-100-58-222.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 07:08:15 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-71.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:09:49 teggi [~teggi@123.21.170.30] has joined #lisp 07:14:53 -!- ysph [~user@68-113-85-213.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has quit [Quit: sleep] 07:15:22 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:15:38 -!- sacho [~sacho@79-100-58-222.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:16:07 sacho [~sacho@79-100-58-222.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 07:17:58 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:17:58 krrrcks [~krrrcks@krrrcks.de] has joined #lisp 07:18:05 -!- chr [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:19:59 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 07:21:44 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-244.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:25:35 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178-164-240-158.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 07:25:35 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178-164-240-158.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 07:25:35 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 07:26:47 -!- sacho [~sacho@79-100-58-222.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:27:23 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Client Quit] 07:27:37 sacho [~sacho@79-100-58-222.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 07:28:19 -!- gniourf_gniourf [~Gniourf@2a01:e35:2433:3b90:222:41ff:fe23:8d8e] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:31:43 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:32:00 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 07:35:09 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 07:37:07 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.104.38] has joined #lisp 07:38:18 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:38:56 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 07:41:38 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:42:01 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 07:43:06 mutley89 [~mutley89@cpc1-hudd6-0-0-cust741.4-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:44:11 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:44:36 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:39 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 07:45:52 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.9.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:47:35 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 07:47:49 -!- sacho [~sacho@79-100-58-222.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:48:35 sacho [~sacho@79-100-58-222.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 07:50:25 gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 07:52:12 replore__ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 07:52:31 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:54:18 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@14-201-67-103.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 07:56:10 tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:59:00 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:59:38 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 08:00:07 -!- maxm [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:00:20 maxm [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has joined #lisp 08:02:30 -!- sacho [~sacho@79-100-58-222.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:03:02 sacho [~sacho@79-100-58-222.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 08:05:01 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 08:05:46 -!- replore__ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:06:16 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-121-60.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 08:10:29 -!- ebobby [~fms@50-0-172-141.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:14:04 -!- sacho [~sacho@79-100-58-222.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:14:41 sacho [~sacho@79-100-58-222.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 08:16:00 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 08:19:51 How can I do the equivalent of min or max on things that are not numbers? 08:20:43 sigjuice_: (iterate) has maximizing and minimizing clauses, with arbitrary functions IIRC 08:21:21 sacho_ [~quassel@79-100-58-222.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 08:21:26 -!- sacho [~sacho@79-100-58-222.btc-net.bg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:24:23 indeed. (iter (for x in '("a" "aa" "aaa")) (finding x maximizing (length x))) => "aaa" 08:24:29 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-028.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 08:25:50 -!- sacho_ [~quassel@79-100-58-222.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:25:51 harish [~harish@119.234.208.111] has joined #lisp 08:28:51 sigjuice_: cl-utilities contains a function EXTREMUM for that purpose. Ideally someone would take it and put it into alexandria. 08:34:01 silenius [~silenius@i59F72471.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:37:28 Farzad [Farzad@46.225.98.4] has joined #lisp 08:40:01 bondar [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 08:40:49 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-upbthyufnkdchyxm] has joined #lisp 08:41:41 n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@178.46.9.154] has joined #lisp 08:44:40 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:45:07 Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 08:47:40 -!- bondar [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:47:50 bondar [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 08:51:17 sacho [~quassel@79-100-58-222.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 08:53:27 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-107-3-142-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 08:56:19 nha [~prefect@dhcp-15-233.math.tu-berlin.de] has joined #lisp 08:57:12 -!- Farzad [Farzad@46.225.98.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:57:29 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 08:57:44 Is there a way to only bind certain values returned from a function? I have a function that returns two values, but I'm only interested in the second. What I'm currently doing is something like (multiple-value-bind (first second) (foo) (declare (ignore first)) second). 08:58:02 <|3b|> clhs nth-value 08:58:02 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_nth_va.htm 08:58:24 |3b|: There we go. Nice. Thanks. 08:59:53 FreeArtMan [~fam@62.85.99.68] has joined #lisp 09:04:42 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:06:49 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-028.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:06:51 -!- KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:08:25 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:08:40 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-035.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 09:12:26 -!- sacho [~quassel@79-100-58-222.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:12:37 sacho [~quassel@79-100-58-222.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 09:18:20 -!- harish [~harish@119.234.208.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:18:40 -!- bondar [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [] 09:22:21 hi 09:22:23 is there a way to generate apache password hashes in CL ? 09:22:29 there are crypted md5 passwords with $apr1$ magic prefix 09:22:35 I am not sure ironclad handle crypted md5 09:23:34 Harag [~phil@dsl-243-251-219.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:23:51 -!- Harag [~phil@dsl-243-251-219.telkomadsl.co.za] has left #lisp 09:36:08 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-035.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:40:18 Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has joined #lisp 09:40:49 -!- sacho [~quassel@79-100-58-222.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:42:09 sacho [~quassel@79-100-58-222.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 09:43:44 -!- Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has left #lisp 09:45:04 -!- kilon [~user@178.59.17.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:48:28 kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 09:48:36 -!- silenius [~silenius@i59F72471.versanet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:50:53 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-upbthyufnkdchyxm] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:50:58 the "magic prefix" is the salt. you can generate these hashes with ironclad. i have done it in the past, but i don't have the code anymore. 09:52:41 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has joined #lisp 09:52:56 milanj [~milanj_@93-86-187-123.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 09:53:45 Radium [~carbon@117.203.9.162] has joined #lisp 09:54:13 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 09:54:16 Fullmoon_ [~Fullmoon@dsl-stat-43-17.mmc.at] has joined #lisp 09:55:58 -!- sacho [~quassel@79-100-58-222.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:57:08 sacho [~quassel@79-100-58-222.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 09:57:52 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:58:28 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@dsl-stat-43-17.mmc.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:58:36 -!- ski_ [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:59:10 -!- Fullmoon_ [~Fullmoon@dsl-stat-43-17.mmc.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:59:49 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:01:01 ski_ [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:01:45 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:02:48 H4ns: ok 10:03:05 but what kind of cipher should I use ? 10:03:10 -!- jiaxi [~jiaxi@61.148.56.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:03:37 I found https://github.com/hanshuebner/bknr-datastore/blob/master/src/utils/crypt-md5.lisp 10:03:51 whis is almos exactly what I need 10:04:03 but if ironclad can do it 10:04:10 I'd rather use ironclad 10:08:33 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-tapgkjtlhzhybojx] has joined #lisp 10:11:57 -!- springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 10:14:01 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-86-187-123.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:14:13 add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-1-86.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 10:14:33 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.9.162] has quit [] 10:14:46 -!- MrBusiness [~MrBusines@184.99.7.19] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:14:58 Radium [~carbon@117.203.9.162] has joined 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joined #lisp 13:15:59 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@188-143-58-196.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 13:16:00 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:16:02 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 13:16:03 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-58-196.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 13:16:04 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:21:07 Radium [~carbon@117.203.9.162] has joined #lisp 13:21:31 is there some lisp package to manipulate OpenSSL certificates ? 13:21:39 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:21:44 renard_: no 13:21:49 for using genrsa etc.. ? 13:21:56 H4ns: ok thanks 13:22:08 renard_: calling openssl through cffi is your best bet 13:22:16 thus I should call an external program for that right ? 13:22:26 renard_: that, or ffi 13:22:29 ok 13:22:31 -!- naiv [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-189-13.w90-36.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:22:38 thanks 13:25:42 naiv [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-219-35.w109-208.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:32:18 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:32:19 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-sdussvullidlvkja] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:33:04 kvsari [~kvsari@119-173-226-187.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:34:24 -!- kvsari [~kvsari@119-173-226-187.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 13:34:44 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:34:59 ghuntley [~ghuntley@CPE-60-225-88-32.hhui2.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 13:35:54 -!- mucker [~harsha@183.83.51.123] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:37:38 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:38:19 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@chello084112185050.3.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: Fullmoon] 13:41:44 edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 13:44:05 Good morning, Lisps. 13:44:20 ivan-kan` [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 13:44:27 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:44:30 *Bacteria* waves at ChibaPet 13:44:34 ahinki_ [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 13:44:44 mornin 13:45:11 n1nt4tsn0k|1 [~nitnatsno@178.47.210.230] has joined #lisp 13:45:24 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:45:32 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:45:39 huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has joined #lisp 13:48:04 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@178.46.9.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:53:15 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:53:26 -!- edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:53:34 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-ywcvnnhyfidftsyg] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:54:57 edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 13:56:39 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-86-187-123.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:59:30 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@187.59.25.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:59:48 -!- _root_ [~Scalable@li252-14.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:00:24 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:00:42 [6502] [4e0cea66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.12.234.102] has joined #lisp 14:01:07 <[6502]> hello... 14:02:00 <[6502]> is it frequent that (gensym) cannot be replaced by '#.(gensym) ? 14:02:31 kvsari [~kvsari@119-173-226-187.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:02:33 why would anyone do this in the first place? 14:02:56 _root_ [~Scalable@li252-14.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 14:03:03 <[6502]> stassats`: to generate the symbol just once at macro definition time... isn't that a good idea? 14:03:21 a terrible idea 14:03:24 nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:03:54 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:33 <[6502]> stassats`: indeed i sort of hear an inner voice telling me the same... but i cannot understand what it's saying... 14:05:19 <[6502]> stassats`: why is it a terrible idea? 14:05:45 i'll let you discover this on your own 14:06:08 -!- ASau` [~user@95-25-227-191.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:06:17 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-hhpxzswawlrmvkiu] has joined #lisp 14:06:23 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 14:06:27 Greetings lispers 14:06:40 'hello 14:06:50 <[6502]> stassats`: for example (defmacro square (x) (let ((y (gensym))) `(let ((,y ,x)) (* ,y ,y))) ... 14:07:15 ASau` [~user@95-25-227-191.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 14:07:15 <[6502]> stassats`: here I think that using '#.(gensym) would be functionally equivalent, no? 14:07:27 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:08:00 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 14:08:38 dekuked [~user@pool-108-20-217-59.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:40 in #emacs 14:09:24 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@75.Red-88-7-128.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:20 tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.56.169.159] has joined #lisp 14:10:21 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 14:10:47 milanj [~milanj_@93-87-100-199.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 14:11:00 [6502]: why would you use defmacro for square? 14:11:31 <[6502]> stassats`: that was just an example... 14:11:37 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-036.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 14:12:05 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 14:12:08 <[6502]> stassats`: I wonder how many times unique symbol generation could be anticipated at readtime instead than at macroexpansion time 14:12:17 <[6502]> instead of 14:12:51 re-examine the definition of "unique symbol" heh 14:13:51 <[6502]> oGMo: true, but in many cases the symbol is needed in a lexical scope, so even using the same symbol for multiple expansions wouldn't be a problem 14:14:34 (my-macro (... (my-macro ... 14:14:52 but what's the point 14:15:43 <[6502]> oGMo: see the example before... do you see any problem in (square (square (foo))) ? 14:15:59 unnecessary pseudo-optimization without any benchmarks 14:16:03 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@94.144.63.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:16:21 square shouldn't be a macro 14:16:23 [6502]: one macro is not all macros 14:16:31 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@121.11.119.197] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:17:04 [6502]: do you have a goal? then maybe you get better responses if you say what it is. 14:17:07 one poorly-applied macro at that, yes 14:17:08 <[6502]> Adeon: it started because i found a "make-symbol" reference in the tree-shaked version of a program... so i began wondering if symbol generation could be anticipated, and found that in many cases it could 14:17:20 stlifey [~stlifey@121.11.119.197] has joined #lisp 14:17:39 you don't even need gensym in SQUARE 14:17:39 <[6502]> H4ns: not really... i simply never thought before that gensym is often "too dynamic" for no reason, that's all 14:18:00 the square was just an example, I thought 14:18:10 a stupid example 14:18:58 -!- ahinki_ [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 12.0/20120417165043]] 14:19:01 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.106.49.167] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:19:26 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@dsl-stat-43-17.mmc.at] has joined #lisp 14:19:47 [6502]: What do you mean by "anticpate symbol generation" and what do you do with that information? 14:21:05 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:21:32 -!- sacho [~quassel@79-100-58-222.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:21:33 <[6502]> ThomasH: computing (gensym) at read time instead of at macroexpansion time 14:22:15 [6502]: right, if you don't need a unique symbol, you don't need gensym anyway, as in your case 14:22:41 sacho [~quassel@79-100-58-222.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 14:24:48 ysph [~user@adsl-065-013-204-170.sip.mgm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:55 -!- kvsari [~kvsari@119-173-226-187.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:25:16 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 14:25:37 [6502]: But if you use #.(gensym), a malicious user could find out this gensym from function-lambda-expression of the macro-function, or some other implementation dependant introspection, and use it in his own (let ((,your-gensym 42)) (square ,your-gensym)) and you would provide a wrong result. 14:25:39 LiamH [~healy@host-guestw-5-161.dhcp.stevens-tech.edu] has joined #lisp 14:26:04 pjb: would it? 14:26:09 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:26:33 stassats`: well not in the case of square, but square shouldn't be a macro in the first place. 14:26:42 [6502]: otherwise, the main problem is that now you have to think about it! 14:26:48 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:21 [6502]: programming is complex enough, you shouldn't add choice points that don't add anything. 14:28:00 <[6502]> oGMo: suppose (defmacro with-canvas (x &rest body) ...) that expands in a macrolet form defining a few local macros for drawing on the canvas... of course i need to evaluate `x` only once and I used (gensym)... but '#.(gensym) would work the same 14:28:02 pjb: i don't see how it ever will provide a wrong result, even with the right macro 14:28:43 <[6502]> pjb: if you don't like choice points I think lisp is the wrong language :-D 14:29:15 [6502]: if you have to you gensym, you have to use gensym every time 14:29:23 or you don't have to at all 14:30:01 <[6502]> oGMo: you are repeating what you just said. I understood what you are saying but I'm not sure I agree. Consider the with-canvas macro... i need gensym, but i can use gensym at read time... 14:30:16 [6502]: your example has no code 14:30:26 pjb: now, declaring it special or declaring its type would be adverse 14:31:08 [6502]: I don't understand how to use GENSYM at read time. -> http://paste.lisp.org/display/129148 14:32:00 <[6502]> oGMo: (defmacro with-canvas (x &rest body) (let ((c (gensym))) `(let ((,c ,x)) (macrolet ((move-to (x y) `(canvas-move-to ,c ,x ,y)) (line-to (x y) `(canvas-line-to ,c ,x ,y)))))) ... 14:32:14 -!- sacho [~quassel@79-100-58-222.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:32:25 <[6502]> oGMo: (defmacro with-canvas (x &rest body) (let ((c (gensym))) `(let ((,c ,x)) (macrolet ((move-to (x y) `(canvas-move-to ,c ,x ,y)) (line-to (x y) `(canvas-line-to ,c ,x ,y)) ,@body)))) 14:32:35 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@99-28-161-110.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:32:57 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@99-28-161-110.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:34 <[6502]> ThomasH: you need '#.(gensym) (there is a missing quote) 14:33:36 ok I've found it. I want http://people.iola.dk/olau/flot/examples/realtime.html from my CL application to publish internal states (current bench measures, etc) 14:33:43 sacho [~quassel@79-100-58-222.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 14:37:45 [6502]: can you move onto something useful? it's a bad idea, it doesn't solve anything, produces bad macroexpansions, and susceptible to conflicts 14:37:47 [6502]: that _might_ not break but i still wouldn't bet on it .. and even if not, there's still no real advantage, and you have uglier syntax heh 14:38:13 I still am having trouble understanding the motivation for this. 14:38:42 can't waste symbols ;) 14:39:09 -!- dropster [~Kim@port284.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk] has left #lisp 14:39:09 but can waste time 14:39:20 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-56-23.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 14:39:20 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-56-23.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 14:39:20 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:39:27 -!- sn0rri [~sn0rri@62.169.219.149] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 14:39:49 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.41.40.69.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:40:12 in fact, wouldn't having a symbol at read time mean that symbol never gets collected .. 14:40:50 anyhow, back to my buffer-tree 14:44:37 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002130183069.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:47:34 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-121-223-199-47.lns3.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:48:05 noss [~cs@110.35.137.95] has joined #lisp 14:49:16 -!- sacho [~quassel@79-100-58-222.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:49:20 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has joined #lisp 14:50:45 sacho [~quassel@79-100-58-222.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 14:53:37 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:50 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@188-143-65-57.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 14:54:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:55:52 -!- KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:56:48 dmi3y [~sober@87.245.220.4] has joined #lisp 14:58:02 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@62.85.99.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:59:29 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:01:50 clawtros [~user@165.154.31.211] has joined #lisp 15:03:52 jmckitrick [~user@108-77-157-187.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:56 -!- sacho [~quassel@79-100-58-222.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:04:30 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002130183069.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 15:05:02 sacho [~quassel@79-100-58-222.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 15:05:10 -!- sacho [~quassel@79-100-58-222.btc-net.bg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:06:09 -!- harish [~harish@119.234.156.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:07:20 mathrick__ [~mathrick@94.144.63.213] has joined #lisp 15:07:39 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [] 15:07:43 dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 15:08:22 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-24-216-71.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:55 -!- schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:09:12 Hi all. 15:09:17 schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 15:09:18 I'm back with more trolling. ;-) 15:09:23 -!- futuro [~user@opennic/futuro] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:09:38 and we're toxic as ever 15:09:59 *ThomasH* puts on his hazmat suit 15:10:07 -!- attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@188-143-65-57.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:10:28 My company is looking into a full-fledged Java app server, and this is my first time with 'heavy' stuff like deploying into remote containers, dependency injection, etc. 15:10:34 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:10:57 Are there any similarly 'heavy' uses of lisp out there? 15:10:57 *stassats`* squints to see the lisp angle 15:11:11 *ThomasH* lights a match 15:11:46 I've been researching how to 'mock' classes for lisp unit tests, for example. 15:11:50 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-65-57.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 15:11:51 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-65-57.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 15:11:51 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:12:09 jmckitrick: yes, there are. 15:12:31 jmckitrick: lisp was used on Deep Space 1, a 373 kg device. Is it heavy weight enough for you? 15:12:40 Perhaps the 'heavy' aspect of EE Java is to facilitate the interface based unit testing that's so popular. 15:13:03 pjb: I said 'heavy'. Not 'massy'. ;-) 15:13:38 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@75.Red-88-7-128.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 15:14:06 I know it's used is very real and very serious apps, of course. But I guess the 'app server' realm of Java EE is just a unique case? 15:14:15 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.170.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:14:22 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:14:42 I think it would be interesting to peek in on, say, the LispWorks production process. 15:14:45 kanru`` [~user@61-228-151-132.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:48 jmckitrick: did you do some research? i don't think so. 15:14:52 Oh, you mean accelleration, then lisp is also used in particle accelerator management, is that "heavy" enough for you? 15:15:11 pjb: Now we're getting somewhere. ;-) 15:15:15 jmckitrick: because if you did, you'd find that there are no lisp based systems that are comparable with java ee web application servers. 15:15:32 jmckitrick: No, we're clearly going around in circles. d-: 15:15:36 H4ns: No, I did not. But I've not seen any web app servers like java ee has. 15:15:40 jmckitrick: of course, we're lispers, so we can write anything in no time. 15:15:42 There's hunchentoot, but it's incomparable. 15:16:06 jmckitrick: but as you know, unwritten code has no bugs and executes at the speed of mouth. 15:16:14 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-24-216-71.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 15:16:24 I didn't think there was any kind of app server like java ee has, but then again, core server looked pretty interesting. Not sure how often it's used in the real world, though. 15:16:40 Right now I'm trying to work out how to get my lisp app server to shut down gracefully when it catches a SIGTERM. 15:17:05 i have been spending a good deal of time recently debating how to create a temporary file. 15:17:14 mathrick [~mathrick@94.144.63.213] has joined #lisp 15:17:30 jmckitrick: You're looking for some type assurance up-front that the toolset you choose will meet your requirements. The fallacy here is that you understand both your requirements and the toolset well enough to make that judgement. 15:17:36 that is an interesting process and a very nice and fruitful discussion, and it tells something about the state of lisp, too. 15:17:50 (Current status: I can ignore SIGTERM, and I can block SIGTERM without SBCL's runtime pitching a fit. I'm almost there!) 15:19:06 jmckitrick: The better approach is to not waste too much time picking the right toolset. Make a reasonable decision and then work on the development as quickly as possible. The sooner you do this, the sooner you're likely to encounter problems with your requirements and the toolset. 15:19:09 ThomasH: Not really. I use lisp for real work on the side, and Java for real work at work. I just thought I'd ask some experts who might have had the opportunity to compare or work with both in real world 'heavy' applications. But, as expected, there's really no app server container out there like Java EE has. 15:19:17 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:19:36 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-61-152.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 15:19:36 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-61-152.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 15:19:36 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:19:52 So the comparison is moot. But I do think java anntotations are a neat idea. 15:20:05 jmckitrick: no. 15:20:17 I don't know anything about Java EE, but it's always seemed to me that most "enterprise" software is horribly overbuilt anyway. 15:20:25 why would I want an app server container? 15:20:25 I was thrilled to see that my app runs in SBCL at about the same speed as LW. Makes me happy with my choice of SBCL for now. 15:20:26 jmckitrick: you held your promise. now go away. 15:20:47 H4ns: Wow. Thanks. 15:20:48 *j_king* stops wondering aloud. 15:20:52 sacho_ [~quassel@79-100-58-222.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 15:21:09 -!- sacho_ [~quassel@79-100-58-222.btc-net.bg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:21:28 -!- mathrick__ [~mathrick@94.144.63.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:21:45 -!- dmi3y [~sober@87.245.220.4] has left #lisp 15:21:57 jmckitrick: If you know what you are trying to do, then you are the only one in a position to judge if Lisp can accomplish it. 15:22:07 -!- clawtros [~user@165.154.31.211] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:22:33 nyef: That's what I'm seeing. Working without access to a file system makes some simple tasks pretty ridiculous. Especially when the task at hand is file processing. 15:22:52 jmckitrick: besides, you can always use abcl and run your lisp programs in java ee. 15:23:53 CampinSam [~Sam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 15:23:56 But since QuickLisp appeared, and a few other fantastic tools like postmodern, it's gotten much easier. 15:24:13 pjb: I keep telling our team lead about that. :-) 15:24:27 jmckitrick: no really, you said you would be trolling and now you are. maybe you can not? 15:24:32 jmckitrick: as far as i know there is no large scale lisp web app deployed anywhere 15:24:41 *cough* QPX 15:24:47 could be someone doing something on the intranet or such 15:25:05 jmckitrick: If I was your team lead, my response would be, "Talk is cheap, show me a concrete reason why we should do that." 15:25:13 dlowe: do they actually use it for teh web part? 15:25:18 stassats`: are we anywhere near ready getting that sb-cover tool out into the real world? 15:25:44 maxm: nah, but it's large scale, deployed, and has a web front-end 15:26:00 ThomasH: It's mostly just light banter. There's no reason to use CL for these tasks. 15:26:01 http://www.capeair.com/ is the same way 15:26:50 So they never ported the CL backend to anything else? 15:27:10 jmckitrick: anyway, there is work in that direction. Most of the pieces are starting to appear, but integration wise we kind of in like jsp 1.0 days, with everything very disconnected, libraries being developed and being abandoned, then rediscovered and continued etc 15:27:15 I know that happens after mergers and acquisitions, sometimes. 15:27:32 jmckitrick: not yet 15:27:52 maybe not ever. it's up in the air at this point 15:28:16 The interesting part of the Lisp Hackers interview with Pascal Costanza was how he uses Lisp for prototyping. That is probably the best way to introduce Lisp into a commercial setting. 15:28:18 *maxm* feels he did his small part by releasing lispy log4j clone 15:28:35 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:28:38 I plan to look into whatever stuff sykopomp is writing when I have time 15:28:42 jmckitrick: maybe 15:28:45 ThomasH: I appreciated that as well. I've used it for some one-off scripts myself. 15:28:59 stassats`: before it gets stale 15:29:00 maxm: I might use that log4j clone soon in a hobby project 15:29:06 also announcement in c.l.l about new web framework based on hierarchical paths, looked to me as a step in the right direction 15:29:27 what announcement? 15:30:05 harish [~harish@cm50.beta157.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 15:30:11 dlowe: you welcome, if you have any problems with it let me know.. I plan to release a template example project, with it setup right, that is multiple packages, hierarchies, logging highlighted in slime, clicking on log message going to the location it was logged from etc 15:30:40 RESTAS is supposed to use Ruby like routes. But that's not what you mean, maxm? 15:31:38 jmckitrick: I'm not familiar with ruby routes, but I by the sound of it its similar.. The guy was talking about GET /foo/bar/baz going through 3 handlers, FOO BAR BAZ, with inner ones running inside of the dynamic scope of their parent 15:31:56 I have a really ugly patchwork of handlers in hunchentoot, and I'd like a way to migrate to something more sane. 15:32:13 jmckitrick: so you can do stuff like (defun bar () (with-user-auth-checked (*user*) (call-next-handler))) 15:32:24 so outer handlers can establish bindings for inner ones to work in 15:32:37 and that is a very common pattern for authefication, maintaining state etc 15:33:00 That's a great approach. 15:33:07 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 15:33:18 My hunchentoot stuff is all (define-endpoint some-name "^regexp$"), then (defun some-name/post (groups-from-regexp) ...) 15:33:33 Most of my handlers are REST handlers anyway, and that hierarchical approach would work well. 15:33:38 /foo/1/bar/2 15:34:13 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:34:53 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 15:34:53 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-hhpxzswawlrmvkiu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:34:57 So for a regexp of "^foo/([^/]*)/bar/([^/]*)$" when matched against "/foo/1/bar/2" would call the /GET or /POST function with parameters "1" and "2". 15:35:41 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:36:42 -!- tensorpudding_ is now known as tensorpudding 15:36:55 strange_ [~behelit@c213-89-59-224.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:37:16 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.198] has joined #lisp 15:38:05 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:38:40 -!- diginet [~diginet@adsl-69-153-135-2.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:39:00 nyef: That's an approach I'll look into. 15:39:11 My newer stuff does declarations like this: 15:39:11 (define-resource-type get-one-json ("get-one") ("GET") :with-id id) 15:39:58 -!- kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 15:40:13 I've also got some crazy stuff like PARAMETER-BIND for dealing with GET and POST parameters. 15:40:35 Which will let me say (define-resource-get-one-json "foo" ...) 15:40:46 and maps that to /foo/id 15:40:53 -!- killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:40:55 With a 'GET' request, of course. 15:43:11 Farzad [Farzad@46.225.115.92] has joined #lisp 15:43:43 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:44:55 quick question: which is better: allegrocl or lispworks? 15:45:04 Farzad: Yes 15:45:29 ThomasH, ? 15:46:01 Farzad: are you looking for a built in object persistence system? 15:46:01 Farzad: freenode.net is mostly about free software. 15:46:03 Farzad: Better for what? 15:46:16 Are you interested more in a cross platform UI? 15:46:25 jmckitrick: do you use allegrocache? 15:46:32 jmckitrick, yes 15:46:59 the acl gui really sucks, don't know about lispworks 15:47:06 H4ns: I used allegro for one job, but not allegrocache specifically. 15:47:09 Farzad: Go try them for yourself. 15:47:16 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@Lark.price.clarkson.edu] has quit [Quit: Offline] 15:47:39 Farzad: Oh, and check out the licensing costs. 15:47:39 ThomasH, lispworks free edition does not give access to gui at all 15:47:50 Farzad: 15:47:52 Really? 15:47:58 I've used it before. 15:48:12 i just installed it, no gui 15:48:31 What platform? 15:48:45 *H4ns* clicks on "lispworks personal", gui opens 15:48:46 windows 15:49:02 I'm using LW on my mac right now. 15:49:11 no i mean gui builder: "interface builder" 15:49:41 Farzad: You can still code the GUI the old fashioned way by actually writing code. 15:49:57 Farzad: Also, you don't need the interface builder to work through the examples in the manual. 15:50:27 S11001001 [~sirian@fsf/member/S11001001] has joined #lisp 15:50:27 The manual shows you how to interactively create GUI elements from the REPL. Slick. 15:50:41 oh, ok thanks 15:51:16 so, any advanced tips on which one to use, hope i don't start a holy war :P 15:51:46 Farzad: Those types of questions are like asking do you like chocolate or vanilla ice cream. 15:52:09 well there must be a difference, comparing the prices 15:52:12 ThomasH: .. in a bar that is for strawberry and lemon lovers 15:52:24
ThomasH: Clearly chocolate is the choice of real Lisp hackers! ;) 15:52:24 H4ns: good point 15:52:26 *ThomasH* has little patience for these types of questions today. 15:53:05 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:53:17 Farzad: in the commercial software world, what you do is an "evaluation". you go to the vendors, tell them what they want to do and they help you look at their offerings so that you can make a decision. 15:53:28 Farzad: in the free software world, you go to freenode.net and ask around. 15:53:40
Has anyone seen a comparison of GUI choices available under CL? 15:53:45 replore__ [~replore@EM117-55-65-134.emobile.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 15:53:48 i like commonqt 15:53:59 dl: commonqt is the fashion du jour 15:54:04 dardoria [~boiantz@92-247-214-154.spectrumnet.bg] has joined #lisp 15:54:05 well i don't have access to any vendor here :D 15:54:16 I like making someone else write the gui for android and let me just write an app server. (-: 15:54:29 Farzad: right. that is because this is not the place to look for commercial software vendors. 15:54:35 Farzad: That is exactly H4ns point. 15:55:10 guys, i live in iran, i'm not sure even if they will sell to me! 15:55:28 are you trying to guide nuclear missiles with lisp? 15:55:33 Farzad: Then use SBCL, CCL, CLISP, ABCL, ECL, etc. 15:55:33 rofl! 15:55:36 Farzad: how lucky you are! There are free implementations, and there is this Internet thing! 15:55:37 Farzad: you won't find out without asking them. 15:55:40 -!- replore [~replore@EM117-55-65-133.emobile.ad.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:56:08 ok, sry about this 15:56:18 Farzad: How important is the GUI? Could you use a web interface instead? 15:56:19 Farzad: We want our UAV back, BTW. ;-) 15:56:25 Asgeir [~asgeir@tri59-1-82-233-201-74.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:56:39 ThomasH: that is inappropriate. 15:56:48 jmckitrick, uav, you mean that drone? 15:57:03 That wasn't me.... 15:57:07 Yes, Unmanned Air Vehicule. 15:57:29 you mean aerial vehicle? 15:57:32 jmckitrick, well if i'm ever gonna make a window based software, it better be good 15:57:35 Seriously, if you don't need a fancy gui, try SBCL with hunchentoot as the web server, and just code a web interface. 15:57:49 jmckitrick, sry :d 15:57:53 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.139] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 15:57:54 stassats`: don't you think it moves air too? 15:57:57 Farzad: If you need a native interface, and you plan to sell it, I'd say LispWorks. 15:58:15 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.89] has joined #lisp 15:58:54 I *believe* Franz asks for a percentage of your sales revenue if you sell an app using their product. I could be wrong. 15:59:16 jmckitrick, thats what i am doing, working on the web, but just beeing carefull to make the right decesion 15:59:55 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 16:00:10 thinking about doing something that won't work because of export restrictions seems not like the right approach to me. 16:00:40 jmckitrick, that's wierd isn't it? never seen something like this before, the whole .net thing is free, totally, with all that librarys, i wonder whats up with the lisp companys 16:01:20 they want to eat, i reckon 16:01:25 H4ns, not planning anything, just maybe they won't care where i am from 16:01:48 you pay for windows, don't you? 16:02:47 Farzad: They have other revenue sources. 16:03:00 stassats`, no :D but good point, no copyright here, that's one big problem even for our own software developers. (wellcome to the third world) 16:03:17 And they were forced to give away some 'free' tools, just like LispWorks Personal. 16:04:32 -!- replore__ [~replore@EM117-55-65-134.emobile.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:04:57 cyc uses a web interface that works thru lynx 16:04:58 maybe you'r right, they should get paid but $1500?! minimum! 16:05:23 oops i was scrolled back 16:05:49 Farzad: sounds cheap 16:05:54 Farzad: If you are targeting the web, there is no reason not to use an open-source implementation, then all of these other considerations are moot. 16:06:11 not for me with an income of $300 per month :P 16:06:24 -!- ZabaQ [~jconnors@85.207.11.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:06:31 but thats my problem 16:06:34 Farzad: Stick with the free stuff. 16:06:46 Put $10 aside for lw, and in 10 years you'll be able to buy it :-) 16:06:47 jmckitrick, yeah 16:06:53 if you're not planning making money on your software, then you don't need a commercial implementation 16:06:58 -!- anonus [anonymous@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:2cc7] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:07:28 pjb, i think writing a fresh compiler and stuff could be faster 16:07:31 One day I'd like to buy LW, but not until I have a convincing reason. 16:07:39 -!- noss [~cs@110.35.137.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:08:40 One day, I'd like an open source implementation that I could use in place of LW. 16:08:44 KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has joined #lisp 16:09:36 ThomasH: That would be fantastic. 16:09:49 like you can't do it now? 16:09:51 Doesn't Clozure have a mac gui? 16:09:53 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 16:10:02 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:10:23 Doesn't Clozure's mac gui not work after Snow Leopard or so? 16:10:35 nyef: Ugh. I hadn't heard. 16:10:44 Or am I thinking of something else that Clozure did? 16:11:27 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:11:54 stassats`: I would use SBCL but for 3 reasons. (1) Experimental on windows, (2) no replacement for CAPI, and (3) LW has a better delivery mechanism with a tree-shaker, etc. 16:12:10 -!- Asgeir [~asgeir@tri59-1-82-233-201-74.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 16:12:26 Asgeir [~asgeir@tri59-1-82-233-201-74.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:17 -!- LiamH [~healy@host-guestw-5-161.dhcp.stevens-tech.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:13:37 what cool application did you make with LW? 16:13:53 anonus [anonymous@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:2cc7] has joined #lisp 16:14:09 is CAPI written by LW? 16:14:22 hello! I've STFW a lot and haven't found anything, but do you know any tutorial or documentation about the "protocol style programming" described in http://sykosomatic.org/2010/10/chillax-and-protocols/ ? 16:14:37 I was on the edge of buying LW for an app I was writing, but needed to pre-sell to finance the purchase, lol. 16:14:52 sykopomp: do you know anything about it? 16:15:13 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-71.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:15:15 stassats`: A very niche application, generates a finite element model of a product from the parametric description. Actually, it could be done through a web interface, but the client expects a stand alone application. 16:15:16 No, they wrote CAPI in perl. 16:15:25 francisl_ [~flavoie@199.84.162.165] has joined #lisp 16:15:44 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.226] has left #lisp 16:16:20 pjb: 5 or 6? 16:16:21 Asgeir: Oddly enough, that looks like a good short tutorial, and provides some references. 16:17:08 I believe sykopomp had inspiration from AMOP 16:17:11 Asgeir: You might also look into CLIM, although that's crazy-advanced stuff. 16:17:19 haven't read it myself, though 16:17:24 *Farzad* is going to wash the dishes, brb 16:17:24 Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.226] has joined #lisp 16:17:45 -!- Kryztof [~user@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:17:47 stassats`: Except for the interface, I keep everything else standard CL for that glorious day when I can fully move back into the OS world. 16:17:47 hi 16:17:53 should I look the CLIM specifications, or one of its implementation ? 16:18:16 ThomasH: i would've used sbcl/ccl with commonqt 16:18:29 More the specification, I think. 16:18:39 It takes quite a bit to get used to CLIM, though. 16:18:50 okay, thank you, i'll look at it! 16:18:52 stassats`: commonqt wasn't available when this thing started. 16:19:15 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:19:49 -!- francisl_ [~flavoie@199.84.162.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:19:50 stassats`: Although, it's definitely worth considering a port. 16:20:01 *ThomasH* goes to look at the deliver mechanism for CCL. 16:20:26 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 16:20:36 urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-215-124.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 16:22:16 *slyrus* has never actually gotten commonqt to work 16:23:01 slyrus: you need to use right version, and only real way to work with it is with repl integration with gui thread 16:23:10 slyrus: you haven't tried hard enough! 16:23:11 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:23:16 stassats`: hah! 16:23:27 you may be right, but I've certainly _tried_ 16:23:28 also my expirience with it is on linux, altoh other guys seemed have no problems on macos and ccl/win32 16:24:06 you need to use the right version is code for "this stuff's really broken, but it worked by accident once" 16:24:25 is ccl a community project now? or are people still paid to work on it? 16:24:41 dekuked: the latter 16:24:54 well even gitorious version will mostly work.. my only problem with it is that with gui thread, if its hang, makes c-c c-c useless, as it stops wrong thread then 16:25:18 stassats`: ah, thanks 16:25:48 the only problem with windows and mac os x is harder to build all the libraries, which are just installable on linux 16:26:31 gitorious is unfortunately performing very poorly lately. 16:26:33 slyrus: the latest version is what you need 16:27:04 commonqt from gitorious doesn't work with latest cffi, but that's a cffi fault 16:30:56 bah 16:31:38 too many version-specific dependencies... let me know when commonqt and cffi play nice together and I'll try again 16:32:01 slyrus: both from current quicklisp should work 16:35:51 Advantages of F# programming in a functionalish style are obvious. Anyone have any comments on using it as a "better C#", i.e. as a way of expressing C#-ish solutions? 16:36:29 Modius: are you sure you're in the right channel? 16:36:44 Sorry 16:36:44 *ThomasH* has an aneurysm 16:37:23 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:38:16 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-400591.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:39:27 XCVB! That's the kind of 'heavy' stuff I was looking for! 16:39:32 Asgeir: AMOP is the best example I've read about doing that, if you read the book as a tutorial on writing object-oriented applications instead of a spec for the MOP. Looking at things like Grey Streams and grokking how they work is a good exercise. 16:39:33 ghost_ [~ghost@2001:da8:d800:101:216:d3ff:feae:1b91] has joined #lisp 16:39:44 -!- blackwol` is now known as blackwolf 16:40:04 *madnificent* often feels displeased with amop 16:40:11 oops 16:40:12 *madnificent* takes that back, he means the mop 16:40:15 thanks ^^ 16:40:34 Asgeir: there's a whole list of resources towards the end of that post, too. 16:42:30 yes, but I only wondered if they were new online tutorials posted after your own 16:42:31 m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.113] has joined #lisp 16:42:58 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:43:16 I find your post very good, and was just looking for another one like that 16:45:29 sykopomp: do you have must-reads on Grey Streams? 16:46:13 it's grAy 16:46:43 http://www.nhplace.com/kent/CL/Issues/stream-definition-by-user.html 16:46:53 agh, yes, sorry. 16:47:11 FreeArtMan [~fam@213.175.106.134] has joined #lisp 16:47:45 my bad as well, but sykopomp must take the blame! 16:47:53 I pretty much learned to use gray streams based on a mixture of trivial-gray-streams' api and SBCL's gray streams docs. 16:49:37 Harag [~phil@dsl-243-251-219.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:49:38 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:49:42 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:35 kilon_alios [~kilon@athedsl-410027.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:50:43 -!- KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:50:53 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.89] has quit [Quit: Offline] 16:50:57 ikki [~ikki@187.145.91.227] has joined #lisp 16:51:07 Asgeir: someone sent me this blog post that might help: http://fitzgeraldnick.com/weblog/?page=2 16:51:12 is xcl the only gpl cl implementation? 16:51:16 thanks :D 16:51:25 (with its own list of resources) 16:51:26 dekuked: what-implementation is at telnet://voyager.informatimago.com:8101 16:51:34 ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-116-074.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:43 dekuked: clisp is 16:51:44 dekuked: answer 0 until you reach the license question. 16:52:49 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-400591.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:52:59 GPL isn't free enough for lispers. 16:53:25 Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 16:53:55 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:54:15 okay, thank you 16:54:20 -!- Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 16:54:28 it looks like clisp is the only modern/active dev one 16:54:28 -!- ivan-kan` [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:54:36 besides abcl, but I don't want to target java 16:54:41 jvm* 16:55:24 pkhuong: it's funny, I've met a few lisp people who really don't like the gpl 16:55:42 you'll find a lot of them in here. 16:55:50 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.89] has joined #lisp 16:55:51 except pjb 16:56:00 I like GPL. I distribute my libraries under AGPL3 now. 16:56:19 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:56:20 I don't mean to troll, but I seriously don't understand that 16:56:50 Actually, the anti AGPL3 license is GPL2 (not GPL2+). 16:56:51 especially because I'd assume cl is amazing for web stuff that python/ruby chokes on, and who cares about the license then? 16:57:06 So if you don't want your code to be used with my AGPL3 code, you should license it under the GPL2. 16:57:13 dekuked: gpl restricts not caring 16:57:15 (MIT and BSD is perfectly usable with AGPL3 :-)) 16:57:26 [SLB] [~casper@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 16:57:41 pjb: huh, I never knew that gpl2/agplv3 are so incompatible 16:57:53 dekuked: yes, check with gnu.org. 16:57:57 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:58:04 You need GPL2+ 16:58:48 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.9.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:01:12 I found this really upsetting when I read it: http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/the_problems_of_open_source.htm 17:01:17 KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has joined #lisp 17:01:36 don't trust anything you read on the internet 17:01:47 You can safely ignore anything Dr Tarver writes! 17:01:55 why do you say that? 17:01:57 achiu [~achiu@ip68-96-95-213.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:10 I mean I really support the gpl, but he does make a few good points 17:02:11 because it works for me! 17:02:26 because what he writes is pointless 17:02:36 Wow, choosing "no threads" in the implementation selector forces me into emacs-cl. 17:02:59 stassats`: why do you say that? I know little of him other than that article and shen 17:03:02 That an implementation choice I guess. 17:03:13 Radium [~carbon@117.203.9.162] has joined #lisp 17:03:15 dekuked: my take about it is that programmers can and will share their sources, but we should make customers pay dear for the executable binaries. 17:03:26 dekuked: i've read a few articles and came to that conclusions 17:03:35 dekuked: the reason is because those customers make us pay dear for tomatoes, flats, and electricity. 17:03:36 What? But SBCL doesn't have thread support on non-x86oid, non-ppc targets... 17:03:40 and this conclusion helps me to save time 17:03:57 nyef: mips? 17:04:07 And the GPL is perfect for that: you get the sources for free. But if you want a binary I'll make you pay for it. 17:04:13 powersurge [~powersurg@nat.sierrabravo.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:21 slyrus: sparc, alpha, mips, hppa. 17:04:26 pjb: well, that's a good point. sort of like the xchat model? 17:04:45 so I've been dabbling with common lisp off and on and I was futzing with restas. any opinions on this vs. other common lisp web frameworks? 17:05:22 stassats`: does your opinion extend to shen as well? 17:06:12 pjb: it's pointless to play the "gimme money or no toy for you" game when all it takes is a kind soul with a bit of hosting space and the ability to ./configure && make 17:06:16 dekuked: but i haven't read a thing about, so i don't know what it really is 17:06:22 (because i don't want to know) 17:06:49 or, in the case of linux, packagers for implementations that already do that for every binary package you download. 17:06:54 sykopomp: yes, but GPL has no disadvantage compared to MIT/BSD in this respect: you have to convince programmers. But they're s smart bunch. 17:07:02 sykopomp: and Apple's helping. 17:07:17 no common lisp web programmers in here? 17:07:18 pjb: Let's say you have a closed source competitor. Can't they just give an executable of your source away for free, thereby fully undercutting your revenue and only partially undercutting theirs? 17:07:41 mugabe reference. practically a hitler reference. losing confidence in this article. 17:07:45 ThomasH: why only partially? 17:07:45 oh noes, gpl discussions in #lisp again 17:07:51 :-) 17:07:59 (that's pointless too) 17:08:17 stassats`: I know you are a smart cl person, why aren't you interested in shen as well? 17:08:34 pjb: Because they have a competing commercial product with a customer base that will not all switch to the free version for various reasons. 17:09:04 dekuked: i'm happy with CL 17:09:15 -!- tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:09:46 s/free version/free alternative/ 17:10:35 diginet [~diginet@adsl-69-153-135-124.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:37 pjb: Once you give away the source, your revenue model has to be focused on support. That's my point. 17:11:58 pjb: the main advantage I see to using the GPL/AGPL is to prevent unwanted competition from getting ahead of the game and leaving me in the dust. 17:12:08 in that respect, I really like GPL/AGPL :) 17:12:09 ThomasH: my point is that customers don't care about the sources. 17:12:12 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-161-110.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:12:44 ThomasH: and if other programmers can earn money selling binaries they built from your sources, it's not bad: I can also sell binaries I compile from their sources. 17:13:22 -!- lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@80.203.136.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:13:41 booyaa` [~booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:25 sometimes sources are so complex that really most of the value of the product is in the processes/collective know how of the developers 17:16:46 key is not to make product too good, so a script kiddie can package and resell it :-) 17:16:55 it has to be extremely hard to build and get up and running 17:17:20 Well lisp programs are not compilable by script kiddies, ql non-withstanding. 17:17:20 -!- booyaa` [~booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:17:39 -!- Harag [~phil@dsl-243-251-219.telkomadsl.co.za] has left #lisp 17:17:41 I've yet to see a business that packages up mysql or apache and sells it that is profitable and they give away sources. 17:18:10 but then again, questionable if MySQL AB actually makes any money 17:18:13 those are not stand-alone products, they are of no use to actual users who pay money 17:18:14 what about businesses that package up Linux and sell it? 17:18:33 -!- ghost_ [~ghost@2001:da8:d800:101:216:d3ff:feae:1b91] has quit [Quit: ] 17:18:43 My first linux was mandrake which i bought at a retail store. 17:18:44 if they give you sources then its fine 17:18:47 If you start generating substantial revenue selling executables of your open-source software, someone will come along with their own bundle to capture some of that revenue. You have to continue to differentiate yourself with "quality", new features, and support. 17:18:50 but tivo situation is fucked up 17:19:10 But you can't just sit back and kick out executables. 17:19:30 Back in the 90's when I didn't have high-speed internet and torrents... 17:19:32 ah the days. 17:19:34 *ThomasH* is done, sorry for getting far afield. 17:20:20 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:20:22 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.9.162] has quit [] 17:20:30 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 17:20:58 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@75.Red-88-7-128.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:28 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-215-124.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:22:53 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-142-209.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:23:12 Hm, so, according to the selector, only CMUCL and SBCL are BSD-licensed. Is this true? 17:23:38 I selected "indifferent" to everything but license. 17:23:46 I used cliki, or the homepages when it wasn't specified on cliki. 17:23:46 ChibaPet: No, those are majority open domain, where that is applicable. 17:24:00 sbcl may have chunks with different licenses. But it's mainly BSD. 17:24:00 ChibaPet: Where is this selector? 17:24:10 what-implementation is at telnet://voyager.informatimago.com:8101 17:24:15 telnet voyager.informatimago.com 8101 17:25:03 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-188-119.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:25:06 Does SBCL contain any GPL-family code? 17:25:13 (if this is known...) 17:25:27 ChibaPet: AFAIK, none. 17:25:42 There's some "public domain", whatever that means. 17:25:46 That's fine. 17:26:08 Public domain is BSD with the lack of warrantee being implicit, IMHO. 17:26:17 splittist [b2c66df6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.198.109.246] has joined #lisp 17:26:27 morning 17:26:29 Think of it as "zero-clause BSD". :P 17:27:19 ChibaPet: but BSD has attribution requirement (so and so wrote this, and I am using it) 17:27:34 Older four-clause BSD has that, not the newer ones. 17:27:35 quick question, what's the difference between #:some-symbol and :some-symbol? 17:27:41 having issues googling it 17:28:41 clhs #: 17:28:41 -!- parabolize [~gyro@c-75-70-14-105.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:28:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhe.htm 17:28:49 clhs keyword 17:28:49 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_kwd.htm 17:28:49 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-189043.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 17:28:53 -!- kilon_alios [~kilon@athedsl-410027.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:29:03 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:29:07 mmm, cool 17:29:12 thanks 17:29:23 powersurge: you can use http://l1sp.org/html/ 17:29:25 ChibaPet: wrong, you must include the license in your derived work, even in binary form 17:29:39 <[6502]> " Its like having a self-basting turkey that moults spontaneously and steps into the oven." 17:29:44 oh, neat, thanks daimrod 17:29:46 added 17:30:09 -!- achiu [~achiu@ip68-96-95-213.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:30:10 haster lan! 17:30:13 I'm so grateful for custom search keywords in ff and chrome :> 17:30:47 state comedy show! 17:31:05 howeyc: Please read about the history of BSD licenses. The one you're talking about was the first but is no longer common. 17:31:08 -!- Asgeir [~asgeir@tri59-1-82-233-201-74.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: mi tawa!] 17:31:33 parabolize [~gyro@c-75-70-14-105.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:44 (Thanks to the Regents of the University of California et. al.) 17:31:50 whatever, time flows and things change you know! 17:31:54 hehe 17:32:04 homie`: stop this nonsense 17:32:06 ChibaPet: okay, if you're right, why is OpenBSD under the ISC license and not public domain? 17:32:18 stassats`: blarrrggghhhhh! 17:32:44 howeyc: For the same reason I had a turkey sandwich for breakfast. I don't understand the relevance. Anyway, I'm done being offtopic for the nonce! 17:32:48 i think my ass spoke to me! 17:32:51 lol 17:33:25 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@75.Red-88-7-128.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:33:46 -!- jmckitrick [~user@108-77-157-187.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:34:04 jmckitrick [~user@108-77-157-187.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:25 -!- powersurge [~powersurg@nat.sierrabravo.net] has left #lisp 17:36:40 -!- Adeon [~mansikat@genodeen.net] has left #lisp 17:41:24 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 17:42:06 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@213.175.106.134] has quit [Quit: Out of this 3D] 17:42:41 -!- superflit [~superflit@75-166-68-85.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:42:59 superflit [~superflit@140.226.4.197] has joined #lisp 17:43:07 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.244.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:43:30 rstill [~rstill@12.104.144.2] has joined #lisp 17:46:32 ocharles_ [u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xhiqqahuinlospni] has joined #lisp 17:47:23 asvil [~filonenko@37.45.196.195] has joined #lisp 17:48:43 asvil` [~asvil@37.45.196.195] has joined #lisp 17:49:18 jmckitri` [~user@108-77-157-187.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:24 -!- asvil [~filonenko@37.45.196.195] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:50:17 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.228] has joined #lisp 17:50:47 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:51:05 -!- jmckitrick [~user@108-77-157-187.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:52:22 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.89] has quit [Quit: Offline] 17:53:06 -!- asvil` [~asvil@37.45.196.195] has quit [Client Quit] 17:53:13 asvil [~asvil@37.45.196.195] has joined #lisp 17:53:17 -!- dardoria [~boiantz@92-247-214-154.spectrumnet.bg] has left #lisp 17:54:14 sn0rri [~sn0rri@62.169.219.149] has joined #lisp 17:54:53 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:55:43 DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-121-60.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:04 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.41.190] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.95.1] 17:57:53 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-76.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 17:58:38 -!- jmckitri` [~user@108-77-157-187.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:04:33 -!- rstill [~rstill@12.104.144.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:05:27 rstill [~rstill@12.104.144.2] has joined #lisp 18:06:14 BeWhy [~chatzilla@c-76-124-138-194.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:23 -!- KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:11:37 nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has joined #lisp 18:14:29 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:16:46 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:17:44 LiamH [~healy@host-guestw-5-161.dhcp.stevens-tech.edu] has joined #lisp 18:18:19 Ralith [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:39 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:18:51 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:19:32 pspace [~andrew@csu-137-148-235-45.csuohio.edu] has joined #lisp 18:22:53 Does anyone know of a open source Lisp alternative to AllegroGraph, off-hand? 18:23:23 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:24:11 Google knows about RDF lisp: http://wilbur-rdf.sourceforge.net/ 18:24:15 *dnm* is currently trying out Neo4j 18:25:05 pjb: Thanks. I looked at Wilbur in the past, years ago, for a different project that was more RDF-centric. With the project I'm thinking of now, I want a graph database, but not RDF. 18:25:13 Have to disappear into a meeting; back later. 18:26:01 kpreid [~kpreid@Lark.price.clarkson.edu] has joined #lisp 18:27:01 I would think that a meeting would be the perfect time to chat on IRC. 18:27:29 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:50 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-71.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:35:51 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-036.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:36:21 -!- dim [~dim@prometheus.naquadah.org] has left #lisp 18:37:43 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-023.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 18:37:48 dim [~dim@prometheus.naquadah.org] has joined #lisp 18:40:10 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 18:40:59 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-209-215.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:44:34 -!- mtd [~martin@chop.xades.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:45:18 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 18:47:05 see also, vivace-graph 18:47:36 on that telnet-cl-helper thing, why does it say "best debugger on interpreted code" for clisp? 18:48:02 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@121.11.119.197] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 18:48:02 because pjb likes clisp 18:49:27 -!- cataska_ [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:49:58 wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:31 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:50:36 -!- rstill [~rstill@12.104.144.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:50:49 wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:19 -!- anonus [anonymous@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:2cc7] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:52:33 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 18:53:00 are there any real differences in debugging/introspecting stuff between sbcl/ccl/clisp? 18:53:05 -!- sysfault [~exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:53:18 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 18:53:39 dekuked: yes. Slime tries to hide them. 18:53:41 clisp debugger is pretty much useless under slime 18:53:55 But slime / ql compile code so debugging with slime on clisp is hard. 18:54:00 -!- [SLB] [~casper@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: [ Il motivo per cui le persone sono meravigliose, non è forse perché credono nei sentimenti e uniscono le loro vite? ]] 18:54:07 But debugging non compiled code on clisp without anything else is cool. 18:54:25 no, debugging on slime+clisp is hard because clisp has no debugger interface slime can hook into 18:54:30 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 18:55:15 debugging ccl with slime is mixed for me still, some things are great and some other hard to follow, maybe it's just me being a n00b 18:55:40 finding the exact source code location for the problem is not straightforward enough for me 18:55:44 use v to jump to the source. 18:56:17 stack frames are not labelled with the source they come from, which means it's harder to know where is your code and where is the libs you're calling into 18:56:26 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 18:56:34 so bugs because you're violating the contrats are harder to find 18:56:36 IME at least 18:56:56 I'll certainly try v, that said, thx for the tip :) 18:57:00 -!- dca [~user@178.252.127.251] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:58:03 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 18:58:06 dca [~user@178.252.127.251] has joined #lisp 18:58:16 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:58:22 -!- LiamH [~healy@host-guestw-5-161.dhcp.stevens-tech.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:58:51 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 18:58:53 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-184-197.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:59:33 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-023.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:02:31 -!- splittist 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[~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:49 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:57:37 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:58:07 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@dsl-stat-43-17.mmc.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:59:25 Hi all. Is there document about cltl2ed issues, something like http://bc.tech.coop/cltl2-ansi.htm, but ordered by issue's names, not by pages? 20:02:15 asvil: Something like http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/I_Alpha.htm maybe? 20:02:29 (Possibly not what you're looking for.) 20:02:36 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:05:20 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:05:46 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:51 i can add it to specbot, if people are using them so often 20:08:32 -!- holycow [~holycow@host-64-151-208-2.bchsia.in2net.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:09:03 -!- ASau` [~user@95-25-227-191.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:10:06 ASau` [~user@95-25-227-191.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 20:11:12 nyef: thanks. A little bit not that i am loocking for. I need it to edit cltl2ed for more readable on my sight. 20:11:29 looking* 20:11:42 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C68DB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:13 Oh, we have specbot back? 20:12:40 I just discovered today that SERVE-EVENT is missing an important feature. 20:13:08 On the order of "we've had this for more than ten years, how the heck has nobody noticed that it doesn't do this?!?" 20:13:20 what a suspens! 20:13:33 nyef: yeah, it's running from my desktop currently 20:13:41 Ah, not from clnet? 20:13:51 no, it's easier to work on it locally 20:13:58 shall we wait ten more years to know what it's missing? 20:14:06 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-215-124.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:14:10 pjb: The "exception set" in select. 20:14:32 i added auto reconnect to it, so my dsl reconnects don't get in the way too much 20:14:53 nyef: yea...didn't you say it was important? 20:15:10 What are exceptions? 20:15:32 The "exception set" is those connections that have been closed by the remote host. 20:15:40 and i didn't finish moving lisppate to hunchentoot yet, after i do and it's stable, i can move it to cl.net 20:15:41 ok. 20:15:53 You know, for detecting that your IRC bot has been disconnected. (-: 20:15:58 yes. 20:16:03 nyef: it does have that now 20:16:14 I'm wondeing if the TCP urgent bit is also transmitted as an exception? 20:17:01 The traditional thing to do with sockets in the exception set is to close them. 20:17:06 i mean, bots have that now, i ditched serve-event 20:17:16 francogrex [~user@109.130.108.221] has joined #lisp 20:18:04 Yeah, I only found it because I wanted to use serve-event to deal with SIGTERM from the initial thread, which just sits there with a REPL. 20:18:30 i send pings every 45 seconds to the server to see if it's still connected 20:20:44 Did you manage to sort out the paste-index thing? 20:20:55 stassats`: does specbot searche documentation? 20:21:17 nyef: no, i didn't touch lisppate much yet 20:21:22 asvil: no 20:22:54 At least with the bots able to auto-reconnect themselves, there'll be much less call for a full process restart. 20:26:06 https://github.com/dlowe-net/orcabot looks nice 20:26:21 and specbot received some polishing 20:26:29 e.g., it now includes titles for sections 20:26:31 clhs 7.1 20:26:31 Object Creation and Initialization: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_a.htm 20:26:49 Did you update it for emacs... 23, was it? 20:26:52 mikos [~mikos@188-223-31-58.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:27:39 for elisp reference? not yet 20:28:38 Mmm. So, on the whole, how bad was the code when you got it? 20:29:07 pretty bad 20:29:09 nyef: only on windows. 20:29:20 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:29:22 nyef: on linux, the exception bit is TCP urgent. 20:30:06 i'm trying to make it work with libraries from QL, with simple configuration files in sane places and just by loading a single system and calling START 20:30:17 foom: Hunh. Really? How odd. 20:30:26 and OAOOfying things 20:30:32 nyef: yea, the original winsock implementation fucked it up, and now they're stuck. 20:30:39 But hey, windows 8 gets rid of winsock, so you don't have to worry about that anymore, soon! :) 20:31:03 what ??? 20:31:04 I don't have to worry about it now. This is an all OSX and Linux shop. (-: 20:31:26 fe[nl]ix: (in Metro mode) 20:31:45 dl` [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 20:31:47 does it disable direct socket access ? 20:32:07 there's a new API. 20:32:22 http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh452977.aspx 20:33:48 nyef: it looked like the one who wrote it was either learning CL at the time, or was in incredible haste 20:33:57 -!- dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:34:07 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.19.118] has joined #lisp 20:34:11 or both 20:36:12 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 20:36:19 antonv [~user@93.125.49.66] has joined #lisp 20:37:10 mwyrobek [~mwyrobek@cbb239.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:37:31 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-35-217-237.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:02 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@94.144.63.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:40:19 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:41:39 thekilon [~kilon@athedsl-189043.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 20:41:54 -!- thekilon [~kilon@athedsl-189043.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:44:04 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-66-65-55-75.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:45:30 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.145.91.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:46:33 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 20:52:37 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C68DB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:53:35 anonus [anonymous@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:2cc7] has joined #lisp 20:54:26 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@75.Red-88-7-128.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 20:59:46 -!- dl` is now known as dl 21:00:09 araujo [~araujo@190.38.61.1] has joined #lisp 21:00:09 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.38.61.1] has quit [Changing host] 21:00:09 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 21:02:17 arrdem [~arrdem@resnet-46-169.dorm.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 21:03:55 -!- asvil [~asvil@37.45.196.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:07:16 -!- sn0rri [~sn0rri@62.169.219.149] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:07:49 jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:13 https://github.com/et4te/jquery-parenscript seems interesting, anyone have already been playing with it? 21:08:27 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:08:51 -!- kanru`` [~user@61-228-151-132.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:09:40 i just write javascript as javascript 21:11:50 i wonder if ccl works on Ice Cream Sandwich 21:11:51 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-35-217-237.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 21:12:04 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:13:08 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.108.221] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:13:36 stassats`: that't another solution as I guess I will have static js here :) 21:13:58 it's data I want to have dynamic from some ajaxy things 21:14:11 but that's not my day, see you 21:14:26 i'd just push json 21:14:50 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.19.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:14:59 -!- nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 21:18:10 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:22:13 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:29:12 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:35 rstill [~rstill@12.104.144.2] has joined #lisp 21:29:41 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-189043.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:31:01 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:31:23 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 21:32:33 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:32:53 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:22 hi 21:33:27 any act-r expert here? 21:34:27 blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:00 mathrick__ [~mathrick@94.144.63.213] has joined #lisp 21:35:28 -!- mathrick__ is now known as mathrick 21:38:04 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:38:35 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:39:56 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-116-074.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:40:13 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 21:42:06 -!- antonv [~user@93.125.49.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:42:20 Kryztof [~user@77-58-246-8.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:44:56 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-184-197.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:45:00 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:45:42 14:47 < Fade> see also, vivace-graph 21:45:45 Fade: https://github.com/kraison/vivace-graph-v2 ? 21:46:16 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 21:46:28 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [] 21:48:05 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 21:48:28 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-67-43.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 21:48:28 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-67-43.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 21:48:28 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 21:50:04 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA092D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:51:54 ikki [~ikki@187.145.91.227] has joined #lisp 21:52:17 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:52:35 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 21:55:23 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c26b8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:11 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 21:57:28 hi 21:57:44 Bike [~Glossina@75-175-3-20.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:46 -!- [6502] [4e0cea66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.12.234.102] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:02:53 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.104.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:03:44 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 22:04:28 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 22:05:04 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:06:27 do you guys just use strings as pathname designators? such as a (create-static-file-dispatcher-and-handler "/happy.html" "public/happy.html") call with Hunchentoot? 22:06:43 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@94.144.63.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:09:04 i do 22:09:12 i use strings exclusively 22:10:36 -!- mwyrobek [~mwyrobek@cbb239.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 22:10:44 but some people do use "pathnames" with logical hosts, bells and whistles 22:11:14 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:11:33 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:12:11 -!- dekuked [~user@pool-108-20-217-59.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:12:17 nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:02 I see people doing an identical call as mine above, but with #p"public/happy.html" 22:13:24 is there any benefit to that, or is it just to make it explicit in code? 22:14:32 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:16:52 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:16:59 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@178-164-240-191.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 22:17:00 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:19:49 -!- YokYok [~david@vmailbox.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:19:55 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 22:20:27 YokYok [~david@vmailbox.org] has joined #lisp 22:20:53 daniel___ [~daniel@p5082BA8C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:06 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:32 -!- ered [~ered@108-201-125-162.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:23:04 -!- daniel__ [~daniel@p5082B663.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:24:42 -!- jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:25:24 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-59-251.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 22:25:24 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-59-251.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 22:25:24 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 22:25:33 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-80-4.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:25:43 -!- finnrobi [~robb@notlupus.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:27:32 -!- attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@178-164-240-191.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:28:40 -!- dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:28:48 inaimathi [~inaimathi@bas1-toronto61-1279436530.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:29:25 robot-beethoven: as a rule, there is no benefit in that. 22:29:31 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c26b8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:30:48 robot-beethoven: Some REPLs will tab-complete #p designators based on the current file-system 22:31:07 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 22:32:21 hmmm, since my code is in an asdf system, would their be benifit in replacing "public/happy.html" with (asdf:system-relative-pathname 'happy-system "public/happy.html")? 22:32:34 their -> there 22:35:38 finnrobi [~robb@notlupus.info] has joined #lisp 22:36:13 -!- harish [~harish@cm50.beta157.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:36:14 -!- benny [~benny@i577A8855.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:36:21 What's the best way to get #P"/foo/bar/baz/" from #P"/foo/bar/baz/mumble.corgi"? 22:36:36 'Cause the best I'm coming up with is (make-pathname :directory (pathname-directory #P"/foo/bar/baz/mumble.corgi")), and that's too stupid to be optimal. 22:36:37 robot-beethoven: yes, very much 22:37:56 inaimathi: (make-pathname :name nil :type nil :defaults #P"/foo/bar/baz/mumble.corgi") 22:39:22 fe[nl]ix: thank you! That's better. 22:40:01 Kron_ [~Kron@209.226.201.250] has joined #lisp 22:41:13 francisl_ [~flavoie@199.84.162.165] has joined #lisp 22:42:00 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-014.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 22:43:12 aaaaa 22:43:19 PSA: never trace gethash. 22:43:19 zzzz 22:43:25 hahaha 22:43:50 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA092D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:43:50 or make-instance 22:44:05 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:44:44 or anything in CL 22:44:53 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA092D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:45:35 -!- francisl_ [~flavoie@199.84.162.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:48:55 is it not allowed? 22:49:19 madnificent: the results are often underwhelming 22:49:20 If you try tracing gethash you'll understand what they mean pretty fast 22:49:39 H4ns: yes, i got that much from it. but it's allowed by the standard, right? 22:50:06 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:51:54 madnificent: no, the standard does not disallow tracing anything 22:52:06 madnificent: it's not allowed 22:52:15 consequences are undefined 22:53:15 our old friend clhs 11.1.2.1.2 22:55:24 looks like you're right. no tracing allowed 22:56:27 it doesn't look, it's right 22:57:16 stassats: in a world in which i learn empirically, that's the closest you're going to get :) 22:57:50 empirically? you don't have access to CLHS? 22:57:56 clhs 11.1.2.1.2 22:57:56 Constraints on the COMMON-LISP Package for Conforming Programs: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abab.htm 22:58:31 stassats: yes, i've read it. and as far as i see, you are right. with my statement i meant: yes, you are right. don't be a douche 22:59:54 madnificent: sorry, i was looking at the trace entry only 23:00:08 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:00:13 *H4ns* will try to refrain to make any more claims about the standard 23:00:14 H4ns: well, it's not disallowed indeed, just consequences are undefined 23:00:34 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA092D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:00:47 H4ns: no worries. i had read 11.1.2.1.2 in the past and i had forgotten. there are more eyes in this channel and in many cases they fix the answer. if you hadn't ansewered, maybe no one would have bothered to correct it. 23:00:53 *answered 23:01:04 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA092D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:01:13 sysfault [~exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 23:01:22 it's easy to remember, you can't do anything with symbols from CL 23:01:42 Ralith: hah, good PSA -- I made a trace-package utility a while ago and of course when I made it I immediately tried to trace cl-user... 23:01:47 stassats: well, you can, but it may not work :) 23:02:12 stassats: you can't change things related to them is closer to reality, i think. 23:03:20 -!- naiv [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-219-35.w109-208.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:03:52 naiv [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-219-35.w109-208.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:05:03 -!- n1nt4tsn0k|1 [~nitnatsno@178.47.210.230] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 23:06:19 -!- inaimathi [~inaimathi@bas1-toronto61-1279436530.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:08:35 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 23:09:04 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 23:09:58 -!- mikos [~mikos@188-223-31-58.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 23:10:28 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-014.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:11:13 Vivitron: isn't cl-user more or less empty? 23:11:58 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-013.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 23:12:32 it uses lots of packages 23:12:44 and at least CL 23:13:13 chiguire|m [~chiguire@190.39.219.179] has joined #lisp 23:13:13 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@190.39.219.179] has quit [Changing host] 23:13:13 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 23:13:28 I may have been misremembering on cl-user breaking things, but trace-package on cl certainly does 23:13:55 DataLinkDroid [~David@101.173.59.41] has joined #lisp 23:14:25 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 23:17:13 Ralith: yes you are right, trying it again I think I must have been tracing inherited symbols to break things with cl-user 23:17:19 does anyone know of any open source DNS server software written in lisp? 23:17:29 kevin01123 [~user@97-91-232-86.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:17:34 ah. 23:17:56 tracing cl's exported bits would certainly be dramatic! 23:18:06 madnificent: i hacked some on ans recently, but it is pretty ugly 23:18:20 H4ns: does it /run/ and is the code shared? 23:18:34 madnificent: https://github.com/hanshuebner/ans 23:18:52 madnificent: i got it to respond a bit, but i'm not sure if i'd call that "run" 23:19:43 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 23:20:15 How would you go about negating a function object passed to a function? I'm thinking something along the lines of (defun func-test (fn) (remove-if (not fn) list)) but that negates the result of applying fn to a list member. 23:20:37 kevin01123: complement 23:20:42 H4ns: it's net reliable? and is the zones/test.com file a regular tab-separated file? i'm implying that an example of that would be nice as well :) 23:21:13 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA092D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:21:23 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:21:24 madnificent: i think i made it clear that it barely runs, so what could the answer be other than "no, it is not reliable"? 23:21:39 kevin01123: relatedly, negation is not defined for booleans. 23:21:43 madnificent: but maybe you can give it some love. 23:21:52 (this is probably why you had trouble guessing the symbol) 23:21:56 H4ns: i thought you weren't sure about how good it ran :) 23:22:06 i might give it some love in a few months 23:22:47 H4ns: Thank you! 23:23:08 guess i'll have to use BIND for now :/ 23:23:19 kevin01123: (remove-if-not fn list) 23:23:46 Ralith: Ah okay. 23:24:07 stassats: I had read that remove-if-not was depreciated, so was looking for another way. Thank you though! 23:24:22 it is not deprecated 23:24:22 killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has joined #lisp 23:24:34 you can disregard what clhs says about deprecation 23:24:59 sometimes 23:25:25 pun [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has joined #lisp 23:25:45 S11001001: as in always? it doesn't mean anything 23:26:22 -!- YokYok [~david@vmailbox.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:26:38 I would say set is still considered deprecated in favor of setf symbol-value 23:26:56 and setq is not deprecated 23:27:13 sure, and clhs doesn't say setq is 23:27:16 it does say set is 23:27:30 so, it's pretty meaningless 23:27:39 YokYok [~david@vmailbox.org] has joined #lisp 23:28:02 "deprecated" means "may be removed in a future version of the language". there will be no future version, hence deprecated does not have a meaning 23:28:14 ok 23:28:36 -!- pun is now known as nif 23:29:00 it has a connotation of bad style, but other not stylish operators are not deprecated 23:29:18 rplaca forever 23:29:24 -!- S11001001 [~sirian@fsf/member/S11001001] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:30:19 as sad as it may be 23:31:05 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 23:31:05 well, it's a function, you do crazy stuff like (mapcar #'rplaca ...) 23:31:20 (not a very convincing argument) 23:31:24 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002130183069.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:32:08 and some people still use setq and multiple-value-setq 23:32:30 -!- YokYok [~david@vmailbox.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:33:08 (mapcar 'rplaca (mapcar 'list '(1 2 3 4)) '(10 20 30 40)) --> ((10) (20) (30) (40)) ; works well. 23:33:48 Notice wouldn't work in emacs lisp :-) (mapcar* 'rplaca (mapcar 'list '(1 2 3 4)) '(10 20 30 40)) --> (10 20 30 40) ; elisp rplaca returns the wrong result. 23:34:35 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.153.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 23:35:03 -!- xan__ [~xan@80.174.78.235.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:35:32 very useful 23:37:16 YokYok [~david@vmailbox.org] has joined #lisp 23:37:21 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:37:35 why is it known with absolute certainty that there will be no future version of CL? 23:37:50 s/100/10/ 23:37:56 wholesale re-binding. 23:38:16 Ralith: singularity will occur before we can do it. 23:38:22 Ralith: it was very expensive at the time and lisp isn't as trendy as it used to be. it'd be odd if we'd have a new standard in the next 10 years. 23:38:27 Ralith: the current CL is good enough 23:38:34 Ralith: post-singularity nobody will care about programming. 23:38:50 stassats: that doesn't seem like grounds for absolute certainty. 23:39:13 anyone know of any good libraries for working with time and intervals of time? 23:39:17 Ralith: enough for "i don't care about the next standard" 23:39:26 minion: local-time? 23:39:26 ah. 23:39:28 local-time: local-time is a library for manipulating date and time information in a semi-standard manner. http://www.cliki.net/local-time 23:39:29 Ralith: Who said 'absolute certainty'? 23:39:38 Odin-: I did. 23:39:42 Ralith: even if it comes out, nobody is forced to jump the ship 23:40:03 Ralith: Why do you expect others to support a claim only you are making? 23:40:12 Odin-: I am not making a claim. 23:40:27 are you claiming that you're not making a claim? 23:40:32 ah right, thanks stassats! 23:40:32 ...dammit 23:40:42 *Ralith* glares at Odin- 23:40:55 minion: will there be a new CL standard? 23:40:56 watch out, you'll make krystof angry 23:41:05 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:41:09 -!- YokYok [~david@vmailbox.org] has quit [Client Quit] 23:41:14 ered [~ered@108-201-125-162.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:22 you see, the new standard will anger Krystof 23:41:24 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.228] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:41:47 I do indeed! 23:41:59 bobbysmith0071 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 23:42:05 YokYok [~david@vmailbox.org] has joined #lisp 23:42:44 Ralith: it is safe to say that if there is ever a new standardization effort, the deprecations of the old standard will - if not removed - just be carried over to the next standard as too many programs use the deprecated features 23:42:46 Ralith: You're the only one I've seen stating that it's claimed to be absolutely certain that there will be no future version of the standard, which is distinct from the statement that a person believes there will be no further version. 23:43:28 Odin-: okay. 23:43:55 H4ns: makes sense. The deprecations I've noticed (things like ...-not) seemed kind of quibbly anyway. 23:43:58 i absolutely believe in what i believe 23:44:35 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:45:45 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:45:55 dto [~user@pool-96-233-56-218.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:30 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-1-86.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 23:49:39 isn't there a few things you only half believe? 23:50:13 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-013.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:50:17 -!- arrdem [~arrdem@resnet-46-169.dorm.utexas.edu] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:50:27 i don't believe so 23:56:47 -!- nif [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:58:09 nif [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has joined #lisp 23:58:14 Kwucks [ca091892@gateway/web/freenode/ip.202.9.24.146] has joined #lisp 23:58:55 -!- nif [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:59:38 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-yygjipasfbmxkxor] has joined #lisp