00:00:28 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@39-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:01:09 achiu [~achiu@209-203-64-221.static.twtelecom.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:32 -!- Froward [~uh-oh@206.231.99.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:04:01 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-0-199-78.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:04:01 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-17-204-106.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:05:03 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:05:27 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-80-239.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:37 *Xach* is sad to miss the boston lisp dinner 00:05:38 -!- achiu [~achiu@209-203-64-221.static.twtelecom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:06:03 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 00:07:13 francisl_ [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176431317.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:07:25 -!- francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176431317.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:07:26 -!- francisl_ is now known as francisl 00:07:40 lemoinem [~swoog@254-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:56 hello Xach! havent seen you much this week 00:10:06 kennyd [~kennyd@93-139-22-241.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 00:10:16 Oladon [~Oladon@c-67-176-80-90.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:17 -!- dto [~dto@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:15:28 -!- Ralith [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:16:52 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.38] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:18:10 *Xach* has been on vacation and traveling around the state 00:19:18 *Xach* got sick and is too tired to make the Boston trip 00:19:45 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.139] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:20:06 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.139] has joined #lisp 00:21:59 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:22:44 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:24:55 Yamazaki1kun [~bsa3@jetalone.facefault.org] has joined #lisp 00:25:07 -!- Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@jetalone.facefault.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:25:54 Matt__ [6c0410fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.4.16.252] has joined #lisp 00:26:29 -!- specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-64-202.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:26:46 -!- minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-64-202.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:26:53 -!- Matt__ [6c0410fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.4.16.252] has quit [Client Quit] 00:27:07 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:27:33 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:27:54 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:29:15 -!- francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176431317.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: francisl] 00:29:18 kornshell [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/skulls] has joined #lisp 00:30:24 stlifey_ [~stlifey@119.121.151.43] has joined #lisp 00:30:52 -!- KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:31:14 KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has joined #lisp 00:31:48 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:32:42 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Quit: Temporarily broken, brb. IMPORTANT: If you don't /msg Athanasius hi, the universe will explode.] 00:33:22 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.149.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:33:29 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 00:36:07 francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176431317.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:37:14 Matt____ [6c0410fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.4.16.252] has joined #lisp 00:39:07 -!- francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176431317.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 00:39:36 Do any of you make UPPERCASE symbol names (i.e. "(let ((MYUPPERCASESYMBOL 5)) (princ 5))")? 00:40:06 Matt____: most depend on upcasing in reader 00:40:27 what do you mean by reader 00:41:20 the interpreter? 00:41:20 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:43:10 minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-5-45.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 00:43:36 specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-5-45.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 00:43:37 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:45:45 In Land of Lisp the author claims that most people make lowercase symbol names. Why would lisp interpreters, when you create symbol, spit out the uppercase form of the variable, not to mention everything it prints? 00:45:59 Such a great book. 00:46:10 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:46:32 Matt____: "reader" is what turns the textual representation into lists understood by compiler 00:47:28 oh, so some readers have to have uppercase to understand the program to compile it? 00:47:55 <|3b|> Matt____: lisp is older than lowercase letters, so it uppercases everything by default when it reads in the program 00:48:08 just by tradition? 00:48:16 Matt____: and laziness 00:48:18 by backwards compatibility 00:48:24 and yes, backwards compat 00:48:29 got it, thanks 00:48:31 -!- Matt____ [6c0410fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.4.16.252] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:48:33 CL was meant to be mostly-compatible with systems that came before 00:48:43 ... did he disappear? 00:48:45 ah well 00:48:47 yeah 00:49:19 heh 00:52:40 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 00:53:19 -!- ngz [~user@198.111.193.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:56:14 -!- mrunal [mpatel@nat/redhat/x-pspcncjlnggezgvx] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:00:05 -!- nif [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:00:53 dnolen [~user@pool-71-183-184-119.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:04 -!- homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-109.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:04:39 homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-143-155.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:06:12 nif [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has joined #lisp 01:06:36 -!- shifty`` [~user@114-198-37-54.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:07:17 -!- kornshell [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/skulls] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:10:18 -!- KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:10:59 -!- oiig_ [oiig_@112.161.134.227] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:11:28 oiig_ [oiig_@112.161.134.227] has joined #lisp 01:11:52 shifty` [~user@114-198-37-54.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 01:12:41 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:13:50 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@254-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:15:44 ikki [~ikki@189.247.231.176] has joined #lisp 01:17:51 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 01:18:06 -!- joachifm [~user@2001:1ad8:c:a4b:2e27:d7ff:fea9:27b6] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:19:45 -!- shifty` [~user@114-198-37-54.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:20:45 lemoinem [~swoog@199.180.99.199] has joined #lisp 01:20:59 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 01:21:57 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:24:15 -!- ravster [~user@184.175.28.107] has left #lisp 01:24:29 shifty [~user@114-198-37-54.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 01:31:10 springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has joined #lisp 01:36:12 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 01:42:14 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:42:53 -!- tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:43:53 tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #lisp 01:46:49 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:49:15 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 01:49:45 -!- ynniv [~ynniv@c-76-23-252-81.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ynniv] 01:55:27 -!- vpit3833 [~user@mail.protocomtechnology.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:56:05 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.231.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:59:49 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-wahlocijdsugmqme] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:01:23 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-vcsvlbumfsnsfjux] has joined #lisp 02:05:13 -!- drl [~drl@110.139.229.172] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:06:31 eliyak [~eliyak@c-24-13-247-120.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:31 -!- eliyak [~eliyak@c-24-13-247-120.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 02:06:31 eliyak [~eliyak@wikisource/Eliyak] has joined #lisp 02:09:42 ikki [~ikki@189.247.231.176] has joined #lisp 02:12:30 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:12:45 blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:51 echo-are` [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 02:20:06 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:23:07 francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176431317.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:27:04 sbcl internals aren't as hard as I thought they'd be. 02:27:07 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.231.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:27:41 *j_king* just skimmed through the x86 backend. 02:34:26 learning is like that 02:34:44 everything seems intimidating until it's not a black box anymore 02:35:05 vpit3833 [~user@mail.protocomtechnology.com] has joined #lisp 02:37:10 dto [~dto@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:01 -!- killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:41:09 -!- two- [~textual@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:43:48 mathslinux [~user@119.255.44.227] has joined #lisp 02:44:18 -!- mathslinux [~user@119.255.44.227] has left #lisp 02:47:46 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-14-2.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:48:14 -!- tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.148.199.230] has quit [Quit: tensorpudding_] 02:48:44 tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.199.230] has joined #lisp 02:49:15 -!- nif [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:53:52 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 02:54:31 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@178.46.12.249] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:54:55 n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@adsl-90-150-20-113.nojabrsk.ru] has joined #lisp 02:56:14 -!- Oladon [~Oladon@c-67-176-80-90.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:56:21 Yuuhi` [benni@p54839C13.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:28 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.139] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:57:59 -!- CampinSam [~Sam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:58:13 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p54839D3E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:59:04 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.139] has joined #lisp 03:02:04 DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-121-60.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:12 alvis` [~user@tx-184-6-177-81.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:44 teggi [~teggi@113.173.29.162] has joined #lisp 03:08:12 -!- alvis [~user@tx-184-6-177-81.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:08:17 killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has joined #lisp 03:10:59 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:11:27 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:11:50 Oladon [~Oladon@c-67-176-80-90.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:33 -!- kslt1 [~karl.sier@netblock-208-127-156-243.dslextreme.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:13:18 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 03:18:05 ikki [~ikki@189.247.231.176] has joined #lisp 03:18:36 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:18:48 drl [~drl@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 03:20:55 -!- ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has left #lisp 03:21:26 -!- killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:21:34 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 03:24:09 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-80-239.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 03:24:19 -!- dto [~dto@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:25:13 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@adsl-90-150-20-113.nojabrsk.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:25:35 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-80-239.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:11 -!- drl [~drl@110.139.229.172] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:30:00 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.231.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:33:19 hiredman [~hiredman@c-24-18-187-222.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:36:06 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:38:18 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:38:42 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 03:39:22 -!- yareally [~yarly@codingcreation.com] has left #lisp 03:39:43 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:40:02 killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has joined #lisp 03:43:21 saschakb_ [~saschakb@p4FEA0BF3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 03:46:13 -!- killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:46:49 Xach: It was quite a pleasant dinner. 03:47:05 I'll post a couple pictures tomorrow. 03:47:36 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0B60.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:47:55 -!- nixfreak [~nix@mn-10k-dhcp1-5344.dsl.hickorytech.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:49:04 killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has joined #lisp 03:49:39 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 03:51:52 -!- dnolen [~user@pool-71-183-184-119.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 03:51:55 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-244.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:14 -!- c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.224.29.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:53:16 -!- saschakb_ [~saschakb@p4FEA0BF3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:53:33 drl [~drl@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 03:53:37 -!- killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:53:57 killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has joined #lisp 03:56:04 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@199.180.99.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:03:07 -!- diginet [~diginet@adsl-69-153-135-2.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:03:37 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.90.11] has joined #lisp 04:06:02 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 04:08:35 -!- killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:12:07 diginet [~diginet@adsl-69-153-135-2.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:55 achiu [~achiu@99-90-69-229.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:17:11 sacho [~sacho@87-126-32-123.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 04:17:34 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:20:03 -!- sacho_ [~sacho@87-126-32-123.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:20:59 mason [~user@ip72-211-225-236.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:21:16 -!- drl [~drl@110.139.229.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:21:53 nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has joined #lisp 04:22:20 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:23:15 drl [~drl@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 04:26:08 cage [~cage@FLH1Aaq228.fko.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 04:27:34 two- [~textual@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:43 killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has joined #lisp 04:29:08 -!- achiu [~achiu@99-90-69-229.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:30:12 -!- killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:30:37 killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has joined #lisp 04:31:17 -!- mason [~user@ip72-211-225-236.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:33:45 -!- killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:34:04 killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has joined #lisp 04:37:36 -!- killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:41:23 killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has joined #lisp 04:42:06 zmyrgel [~user@a91-153-149-186.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 04:42:37 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-103.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 04:43:23 Radium_ [~carbon@117.203.5.243] has joined #lisp 04:48:22 -!- springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:49:55 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-80-239.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 04:51:56 klltkr [~klltkr@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 05:00:07 -!- Radium_ [~carbon@117.203.5.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:06:43 Harag [~phil@dsl-243-197-136.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:06:50 kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-ucoaickjbrhnzati] has joined #lisp 05:06:50 -!- kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-ucoaickjbrhnzati] has quit [Changing host] 05:06:50 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:07:22 -!- benny [~benny@i577A146E.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:08:58 -!- alvis` [~user@tx-184-6-177-81.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:09:45 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-80-239.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:11:21 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-80-239.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:15:21 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has joined #lisp 05:15:27 Radium_ [~carbon@117.203.5.243] has joined #lisp 05:16:19 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:16:57 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 05:17:41 oiig [oiig_@112.161.134.227] has joined #lisp 05:19:10 -!- Oladon [~Oladon@c-67-176-80-90.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:19:35 Oladon [~Oladon@c-67-176-80-90.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:15 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:20:42 -!- oiig_ [oiig_@112.161.134.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:20:54 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 05:22:36 -!- rson [~randy@c-68-32-170-89.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:22:45 venk [~user@mail.protocomtech.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:23:10 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:23:14 -!- xjrn [~innocuous@c-67-174-244-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:24:11 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 05:25:16 -!- machine2 [~machine4@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:25:23 -!- ``Erik [~erik@pool-108-3-159-149.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:26:05 -!- TheMoonMaster [~TMM@reddit/operator/themoonmaster] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:26:07 machine2 [~machine4@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:26:20 ``Erik [~erik@pool-108-3-159-149.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:26:46 -!- vpit3833 [~user@mail.protocomtechnology.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:29:14 rson [~randy@c-68-32-170-89.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:45 TheMoonMaster [~TMM@reddit/operator/themoonmaster] has joined #lisp 05:34:21 xjrn [~innocuous@c-67-174-244-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:04 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-80-239.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:37:05 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:38:10 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:39:16 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-80-239.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:42:13 KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has joined #lisp 05:43:37 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-060-150.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 05:45:41 -!- echo-are` [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:47:08 springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has joined #lisp 05:48:55 achiu [~achiu@c-71-198-248-234.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:50:00 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:53:43 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:56:31 -!- arrsim [~user@128.250.116.167] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:57:15 -!- Radium_ [~carbon@117.203.5.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:59:59 -!- homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-143-155.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:01:28 homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-143-155.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:01:46 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 06:04:02 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.119.155] has joined #lisp 06:05:14 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-108-4-74-122.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:06:44 -!- venk is now known as vpit3833 06:07:17 -!- Bike [~Glossina@75-175-3-20.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: sleep] 06:09:41 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.104.38] has joined #lisp 06:09:44 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 06:09:58 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.199.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:11:32 Levenson [~Levenson@193.110.239.168] has joined #lisp 06:13:27 -!- Levenson [~Levenson@193.110.239.168] has left #lisp 06:16:53 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 06:21:07 gko [~gko@220.228.255.202] has joined #lisp 06:21:48 -!- KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:24:21 -!- achiu [~achiu@c-71-198-248-234.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:24:41 fjl [~fjl@178-25-98-61-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 06:26:19 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.139] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 06:26:32 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 06:26:50 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-244.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:28:51 -!- ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has left #lisp 06:29:03 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:32:19 -!- borkman` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:32:29 -!- fjl [~fjl@178-25-98-61-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:33:41 borkman` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:43:25 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 06:43:36 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:43:57 dropster [~Kim@port284.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 06:45:25 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.119.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:45:53 Adeon [~mansikat@genodeen.net] has joined #lisp 06:48:07 -!- eliyak [~eliyak@wikisource/Eliyak] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:48:50 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 06:50:19 tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.199.230] has joined #lisp 06:50:36 asvil [~asvil@178.120.66.16] has joined #lisp 06:52:46 -!- oiig [oiig_@112.161.134.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:55:20 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:55:28 -!- Oladon [~Oladon@c-67-176-80-90.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:59:47 kornshell [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/skulls] has joined #lisp 07:00:57 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-244.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 07:03:06 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:03:08 -!- Kynes` [~GTSpyVan1@75.14.208.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:03:15 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: .] 07:03:40 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-dgrskzfjvhmhwowy] has joined #lisp 07:06:52 achiu [~achiu@c-71-198-248-234.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:09:56 morning 07:11:08 Hi! 07:11:56 Hi! 07:13:50 benny` [~benny@i577A10B6.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:14:13 -!- benny` is now known as benny 07:14:53 Hi, I just updated SLIME and got this error when running it: Invalid protocol message: 07:14:54 Symbol "CREATE-REPL" not found at all in the SWANK package. 07:14:54 (:emacs-rex (swank:create-repl nil) "COMMON-LISP-USER" t 3) 07:15:13 geek [~geek@unaffiliated/geek] has joined #lisp 07:15:40 If I do (make-array 5 :element-type t), why do I get #(0 0 0 0 0)? I'd have expected NILs ... 07:15:41 is there a better function for this (subseq string 0 (- (length string) 1)) ? 07:16:01 flip214: why would you expect that? 07:16:19 -!- achiu [~achiu@c-71-198-248-234.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:16:28 eliyak [~eliyak@c-24-13-247-120.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:16:28 -!- eliyak [~eliyak@c-24-13-247-120.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 07:16:28 eliyak [~eliyak@wikisource/Eliyak] has joined #lisp 07:17:12 jdz: why do I get numeric data when element-type is T? the matching no-data value is NIL ... 07:17:15 flip214: be glad that they are zeroes, not entries from /etc/passwd 07:17:32 /etc/shadow would be worse 07:17:45 flip214: where did you read that "the matching no-data value is NIL"? 07:18:09 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:18:23 flip214: in short, you did not supply :initial-element nor :initial-contents, so implementation my do whatever it wants really 07:18:45 and number is a subtype of T, so everything is good 07:18:52 -!- killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:19:18 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 07:19:54 jdz: well, perhaps it's a bad expectation ... but 0 is true, whereas NIL is not, and that botched some things that already worked some SBCL releases before. 07:20:24 flip214: why don't you just supply :initial-element nil? 07:20:43 flip214: your code is not portable otherwise 07:20:57 jdz: now that I know it, of course! but earlier versions of SBCL seem to have done that implicitly, and so I didn't bother to specify that 07:21:36 flip214: that's what you get with trial-and-error coding 07:21:41 instead of reading the spec 07:21:47 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 07:22:14 jdz: trial-and-error is good for learning. reading the spec helps for details. 07:22:22 flip214: wrong! 07:22:59 flip214: or, it may be right, if you start writing your programs once you've finished learning 07:23:29 pspace [~andrew@67.111.52.130.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 07:23:34 well, I'd suggest reading a few good books, and having the spec nearby for details. 07:23:36 <|3b|> it is good for learning, it just doesn't do anything to make sure what you learn is correct :) 07:24:29 achiu [~achiu@c-71-198-248-234.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:26:54 Is SBCL enable multithread on Mac by default? 07:27:03 gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 07:29:16 -!- eliyak [~eliyak@wikisource/Eliyak] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:29:36 Levenson [~Levenson@193.110.239.168] has joined #lisp 07:30:13 or I have to install from source? 07:30:25 <|3b|> doesn't look like it is enabled by default 07:30:55 <|3b|> (find :sb-thread *features*) should tell you if it is enabled 07:31:52 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.199.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:32:47 |3b|: So I need to install from source? 07:32:52 <|3b|> probably 07:33:00 |3b|: thanks 07:33:11 *|3b|* doesn't know if there are alternate sources of binaries with different defaults for mac 07:34:59 *teggi* wonders why it doesn't come with multithread support by default 07:35:11 <|3b|> not considered stable enough for long enough yet 07:35:37 Probably because threads are a bad idea. :) 07:35:55 <|3b|> last i remember is that it is close to being good enough, not sure if it is all the way there yet or not 07:35:56 -!- achiu [~achiu@c-71-198-248-234.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:36:13 <|3b|> or at least closer than it was 07:39:25 sn0rri [~sn0rri@62.169.219.149] has joined #lisp 07:41:33 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 07:41:45 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Client Quit] 07:42:00 eliyak [~eliyak@wikisource/Eliyak] has joined #lisp 07:42:28 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 07:44:47 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-103.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:49:49 I thought we had turned on threads by default on os x 07:51:00 Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 07:51:17 *|3b|* might have looked in the wrong place, didn't see it in darwin section of make-config.sh though 07:51:52 <|3b|> unless binaries are built with --fancy, which enables them most places 07:52:14 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:52:35 flip214: the right procedure is 1- read the spec; 2- try out what you read. 3- use it in your programs. 07:52:44 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:53:07 -!- sacho [~sacho@87-126-32-123.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:53:23 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 07:53:34 sacho [~sacho@87-126-32-123.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 07:53:47 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:55:16 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:57:23 dto [~user@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:58:38 -!- Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:01:19 dto1 [~dto@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:01:22 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 08:02:30 -!- dto [~user@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:02:47 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 08:03:33 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:03:53 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 08:05:16 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-121-60.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 08:06:38 lakatos [~lakatos@83.166.210.157] has joined #lisp 08:06:40 hagish [~hagish@pD9FBFDF8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:06:57 Good day 08:09:37 hiredman1 [~hiredman@c-24-18-187-222.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:10:28 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-205.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:10:38 -!- Sgeo [~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:12:20 -!- hiredman [~hiredman@c-24-18-187-222.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:12:20 wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-68-173-17-122.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:12:24 -!- sacho [~sacho@87-126-32-123.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:13:04 sacho [~sacho@87-126-32-123.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 08:13:21 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-033.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 08:18:44 achiu [~achiu@c-71-198-248-234.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:18:47 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@2001:388:608c:946:a5c7:977b:cc81:a1f8] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:18:56 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-xzsybzshhwmzjzph] has joined #lisp 08:21:48 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 08:28:31 edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 08:30:22 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has joined #lisp 08:30:37 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 08:32:32 teggi_ [~teggi@113.173.29.162] has joined #lisp 08:33:08 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.173.29.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:33:08 -!- November [november@osiris.parodius.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:33:10 -!- MrBusiness [~MrBusines@184.99.7.19] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:33:16 November [november@osiris.parodius.com] has joined #lisp 08:33:38 -!- drl [~drl@110.139.229.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:33:38 -!- __main__ [~main@c-67-180-22-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:33:38 -!- k9quaint [~k9quaint@unaffiliated/k9quaint] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:34:02 k9quaint [~k9quaint@c-50-131-165-108.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:34:02 -!- k9quaint [~k9quaint@c-50-131-165-108.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 08:34:02 k9quaint [~k9quaint@unaffiliated/k9quaint] has joined #lisp 08:34:38 Dario90 [Dario90@host31-139-dynamic.3-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:35:05 -!- Dario90 [Dario90@host31-139-dynamic.3-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has left #lisp 08:35:22 __main__ [~main@c-67-180-22-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:35:44 -!- teggi_ is now known as teggi 08:37:50 -!- ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:39:51 -!- dropster [~Kim@port284.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:41:26 Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-036.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 08:43:21 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:44:38 -!- achiu [~achiu@c-71-198-248-234.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:45:07 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-68-173-17-122.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 08:50:24 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:53:46 -!- jjkola_work [c064748e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.116.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:55:58 pjb: my steps are 3, then 1 :-) 08:57:15 jjkola_work [c064748e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.116.142] has joined #lisp 08:58:07 -!- sacho [~sacho@87-126-32-123.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:58:32 sacho [~sacho@87-126-32-123.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 09:06:46 -!- Xof [~crhodes@dunstaple.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:07:09 m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.71] has joined #lisp 09:08:08 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 09:15:42 -!- Levenson [~Levenson@193.110.239.168] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:16:15 Levenson [~Levenson@193.110.239.168] has joined #lisp 09:16:44 -!- Levenson [~Levenson@193.110.239.168] has left #lisp 09:19:28 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-vcsvlbumfsnsfjux] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:22:48 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:25:33 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:27:50 -!- francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176431317.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: francisl] 09:30:16 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:31:00 add^_ [~add^_^@m83-185-142-102.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 09:31:09 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:31:40 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:47:09 -!- stlifey_ [~stlifey@119.121.151.43] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:49:27 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-036.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:49:40 -!- lakatos [~lakatos@83.166.210.157] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:51:36 -!- eliyak [~eliyak@wikisource/Eliyak] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:52:15 oiig_ [oiig_@112.161.134.227] has joined #lisp 09:53:33 ghuntley [~ghuntley@CPE-60-225-85-11.hhui2.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:53:59 nikodemus [~nikodemus@178-55-38-11.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 09:54:13 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-033.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:54:42 hi, I'm looking at bordeaux-threads and wonder how you typically return info from a thread to its parent 09:55:50 dim: what do you mean by "parent"? 09:55:51 it seems like you need to setup a global binding before calling make-thread 09:56:04 join-thread 09:56:07 H4ns: make-thread caller 09:56:24 or a mailbox 09:56:27 nikodemus: I want both to know that it's done and get a result 09:56:36 dim: no special relaionship exists between the thread that invoked make-thread and the created thread. 09:57:11 H4ns: mmm, ok... so I have to setup communication channels explicitely? 09:57:19 dim: so yes, you need to use special bindings and a suitable data structure, possibly with synchronization variables 09:57:44 dim: you can also use a library that gives you better abstractions than threads. 09:57:51 here both thread will act independantly and get me back some "stats" (it's a kind of a benchmark program I'm doing now) 09:58:02 I want to merge the stats once both threads are done 09:58:17 finally (return (list sum min max (/ sum nb) slow)))))) 09:58:18 dim: i like semaphores as low-level constructs. 09:58:22 here's what the stats look like 09:58:36 metaphysician [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 09:59:57 how do I setup a place where to store the list in a dynamic way, as I can't give parameters to the function called via make-thread... 10:00:07 I'm missing something here 10:00:24 dim: you can pass parameters by the way of a lambda. 10:00:32 H4ns: semaphore are good to protect access to a shared resource, right? I'd like to communicate here 10:01:03 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:01:26 lambda, of course, so that I have access to the globals 10:01:30 dim: perhaps there are better ways to do what you want. 10:01:36 dim: look at this page for a few libraries that give you better abstractions for concurrent programming: http://www.cliki.net/concurrency 10:01:42 flip214: yeah, I wouldn't be surprised 10:01:44 for inter-thread communication perhaps a mailbox would be good? lock-free in sbcl 10:02:01 I know how I would approach the problem in other languages/facilities and I want to achieve what I have in mind in CL 10:02:20 H4ns: I was thinking about chanl 10:03:33 that's overkill in fact 10:04:03 the model I want to implement is having a thread return a value when terminating 10:04:40 well in fact I would want to call a function the usual way (params in, returns out) and have that run in a separate runtime thread :) 10:05:09 maybe you want futures. 10:05:45 but it sounds as if you'd like to reject everything that does not match your precise model, so maybe just go ahead with mailboxes or semaphores or some other low-level construct. 10:05:55 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:06:50 H4ns: I'm trying to understand what are the basics tools in CL to achieve my goal here (run a benchmark in several threads in parallel, get back all stats, reduce them, print the global stats) 10:07:09 H4ns: I agree I'm mising problem and solution, but I'm ok to get distracted into other solutions 10:07:10 harish [~harish@cm50.beta157.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 10:07:15 dim: cl has no basic tools for that. it is all in implementation specific code and libraries. 10:07:29 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 10:07:41 I've picked up CCL and SBCL currently, maybe I should look into what they have to offer? 10:08:18 dim: if you want implementation specific code, then yes, look into the respective manuals. both have nice facilities for concurrency, albeit low-level. 10:08:35 dim: _or_ you could look into one of the system independent libraries. 10:08:48 dim: now it is the time for you to do some reading and experimenting. 10:08:58 achiu [~achiu@c-71-198-248-234.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:08:59 H4ns: that's why I'm bringing it here, to find the right tool for the job with your help 10:09:20 dim: should i repeat the help again? 10:09:38 I'm reading about cl-future but that's not in QL 10:09:49 -!- metaphysician [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:09:54 I have eager-future in QL, is that what you were referencing? 10:10:20 dim: i have not pointed to anything in particular 10:10:28 -!- dnangel [~dnangel@c122-107-229-159.mckinn3.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:10:29 I wasnt' sure:) 10:11:07 -!- mutley89 [~mutley89@cpc1-hudd6-0-0-cust741.4-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:11:12 https://github.com/vsedach/Eager-Future2 10:11:43 metaphysician [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 10:11:47 dim: now if that does not look like something that matches your requirements, i don't know. 10:12:23 well I have to read a lot before I can tell that, have you already used it? would you recommand something not too low-level? 10:12:50 dim: i have not used it, but if i had your problem, i'd try it. 10:13:11 BBShortcut [~user@mar92-5-82-225-147-167.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:13:54 hello there 10:14:10 H4ns: yes it looks like a good tool to be playing with, thx 10:16:26 dim: i'd be interested in knowing how it worked for you 10:18:14 sure 10:18:38 eliyak [~eliyak@c-24-13-247-120.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:18:39 -!- eliyak [~eliyak@c-24-13-247-120.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 10:18:39 eliyak [~eliyak@wikisource/Eliyak] has joined #lisp 10:19:03 To load "eager-future2": Load 2 ASDF systems: bordeaux-threads trivial-garbage Install 1 Quicklisp release: eager-future2 10:19:30 I like when it starts like this (adding a depends on the .asd file, ql:quickload the package again, and ready to go) 10:21:38 -!- metaphysician [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:23:12 mutley89 [~mutley89@cpc1-hudd6-0-0-cust741.4-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:24:12 metaphysician [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 10:24:34 -!- mutley89 [~mutley89@cpc1-hudd6-0-0-cust741.4-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 10:24:58 mutley89 [~mutley89@cpc1-hudd6-0-0-cust741.4-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:28:21 -!- gko [~gko@220.228.255.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:29:45 ainm [~ainm@111.Red-79-158-106.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:31:17 -!- metaphysician [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:32:01 stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.151.43] has joined #lisp 10:33:13 metaphysician [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 10:35:40 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 10:39:13 dim: I've been using eager-future in my limited-thread-taskmaster as a thread pool. Not its intended function, but it works very well for that. How is eager-future2 different from eager-future? 10:40:05 idk, seems to be: Eager Future2 is the successor to Eager Future, which was a fork of PCall, from http://www.cliki.net/Eager%20Future2 10:41:01 -!- metaphysician [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:41:17 Hope he kept the addition I requested that allows you to limit the number of threads 10:42:11 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 10:43:50 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:44:14 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 10:46:15 Looks like it, though the mechanism is completely different 10:46:16 eni [~eni@31.171.153.13] has joined #lisp 10:48:45 leo2007 [~leo@114.249.18.221] has joined #lisp 10:53:07 -!- dto1 [~dto@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:55:11 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.173.29.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:00:01 tfb [~tfb@92.41.195.61.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:00:50 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.41.195.61.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 11:01:41 -!- ghuntley [~ghuntley@CPE-60-225-85-11.hhui2.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: .] 11:03:01 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:04:12 shizzy0 [~user@132.198.144.230] has joined #lisp 11:04:35 ikki [~ikki@189.247.231.176] has joined #lisp 11:08:33 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-134-4.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 11:09:13 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:09:40 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:09:41 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-138-134.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:11:28 ghuntley [~ghuntley@CPE-60-225-85-11.hhui2.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:12:11 -!- springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 11:12:36 tfb [~tfb@92.41.195.61.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:14:41 dim check out lparallel 11:16:38 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.41.195.61.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:18:41 eni [~eni@31.171.153.13] has joined #lisp 11:21:30 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 11:21:31 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:25:52 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:28:06 tfb [~tfb@92.41.195.61.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:28:41 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:29:27 dropster [~Kim@port284.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 11:29:54 maxm: thx, I think I might do that, as I have some troubles with eager-future 11:30:34 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:32:05 -!- dropster [~Kim@port284.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk] has left #lisp 11:32:06 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.41.195.61.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:32:34 Joreji [~thomas@ht-210.humtec.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 11:34:14 Posterdati: http://www.richardlagendijk.nl/cip/article/item/spot_the_commodore_2/en 11:34:58 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 11:35:17 flip214: :-) 11:35:58 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:37:03 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 11:40:49 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:45:42 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.151.43] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:46:38 ok turns out my little problem had nothing whatsoever to do with eager-future2 11:46:49 but I did actually switch to lparallel before realizing that 11:46:59 (and had a lunch too):) 11:46:59 -!- leo2007 [~leo@114.249.18.221] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.95.1] 11:48:17 H4ns: lparallel seems way more general than eager-future2, with things like plet and all the jazz 11:48:22 see http://lparallel.com/cognates/ 11:48:53 flip214: did you see my comments on cl-ppcre? 11:49:55 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:50:00 stassats: yes, but why did I get the segfault on page 0? 11:50:37 ppcre is compiled with safety 0, and sbcl doesn't check types then 11:50:46 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 11:52:08 H4ns: (let ((worker (lambda () (run-test times)))) (loop repeat jobs do (submit-task channel worker)) (loop repeat jobs collect (receive-result channel)))) 11:52:31 H4ns: that's using the lparallel lib 11:54:06 Kryztof [~user@161.23.251.155] has joined #lisp 11:56:06 mathrick_ [~mathrick@94.144.63.10] has joined #lisp 11:57:40 kvsari [~kvsari@119-173-226-31.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:57:56 nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has joined #lisp 11:59:44 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:00:31 Fullmoon_ [~Fullmoon@dsl-stat-43-17.mmc.at] has joined #lisp 12:01:19 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:03:41 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:03:59 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:05:26 -!- kvsari [~kvsari@119-173-226-31.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:06:05 c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.224.5.93] has joined #lisp 12:06:29 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 12:08:06 c0atz1n_ [~c0atz1n@189.224.5.93] has joined #lisp 12:08:11 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 12:11:11 stassats: how would I solve the problem with evaluation of the insert-advance-fn macro argument evaluation? 12:11:36 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 12:11:44 using eval isn't nice, but duplicating all calls to that with T and NIL (like it's done for case-insensitivity) is bad, too 12:12:20 i'm not familiar with cl-ppcre internals to suggest any advice 12:13:07 alvis [~user@tx-184-6-180-2.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:13 but, my initial guess is, naturally, use a function instead 12:15:17 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 12:15:44 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 12:16:02 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-80-239.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:38 why do people use safety 0? 12:17:24 For speed :-) 12:18:56 jdz: I never use safety 0. But it's needed when you want to benchmark against C. 12:19:22 It might be needed. 12:19:22 do the benchmarks, and then put 1 back in 12:19:37 Notice that despite safety 3, there are quite a number of places in CL where no safety is mandated by the standard. You could have an implementation almost as unsafe as any C compiler. 12:20:12 jdz: I don't see why you shouldn't keep (safety 3). I've got a fast multicore processor :-) 12:20:13 jdz: cl-ppcre is quite stable, and its optimize settings are controlled through a variable 12:20:15 -!- c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.224.5.93] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:20:15 -!- c0atz1n_ [~c0atz1n@189.224.5.93] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:20:28 which you can increase during development 12:20:29 stassats: at compilation time of the library 12:20:40 jdz: naturally 12:21:06 pjb my anekdotal case http://i.imgur.com/HaMXf.png 12:21:06 12:21:11 well,i have (safety 3) and (debug 3) in my init file, but that won't help me with all the libraries which have their own overrides... 12:21:23 the job is very detailed simulation of a trading system with full l2 book etc 12:21:28 jdz: sbcl can help with its override facility 12:21:30 jdz: unless you have sbcl! 12:21:35 sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 12:21:36 jdz: yes. libraries should not declaim optimize settings. 12:21:41 sbcl is the cause of and solution to all of CL's problems! 12:21:50 i restrict debug to 2 in my init file 12:22:15 most of the slowdown on lisp side is like 50% of time spent in sb-kernel:validate-type or such.. Seems to really kill ffi performance 12:22:45 -!- zmyrgel [~user@a91-153-149-186.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:24:52 silenius [~silenius@i59F73670.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:25:22 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-80-239.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 12:26:31 metaphysician [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 12:28:42 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-80-239.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:13 francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176431317.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 12:29:34 EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:49 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:29:53 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-80-239.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:30:13 -!- Kryztof [~user@161.23.251.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:30:17 maxm: you're missing SPEED 3, SAFETY 1, release on C++ side 12:30:50 i honestly expect the difference has more to do with SPEED > SAFETY than SAFETY 0 12:31:08 nikodemus: well i figured from running with debug c++ side that lisp side cpu usage will remain constant 12:31:32 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:31:52 nikodemus: what kills it, as all the type checks as assertions that (with-alien) using native sb-alien declaration inserts 12:32:13 sounds odd 12:32:37 i suspect you're introducing typecheck in places where there isn't any need for them 12:33:11 typechecking in general is veryvery cheap 12:33:52 but if you have 100 x the required number of checks, then the costs start to go up 12:34:22 tfb [~tfb@92.40.68.110.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:35:23 maxm: a good rule of thumb is to add type declarations when you either want to enforce the type immediately as part of an interface (instead of getting a type-error in some strange place later), or when you know that it will help the compiler generate better code 12:35:34 actually I have to check those, I thought they were coming from alien stuff, coz I'm getting lots of "unable to optimize away %sap-alien, doing runtime allocation thing" 12:35:59 which I understand to be, that I'm returning a typed alien poninter, which FFI has to wrap into an alien, so it carries the type info with it 12:36:01 that's a huge red flag for insanely slow alien code 12:36:32 nikodemus: I figured I'll just change all my types to (void *) rather then have structures 12:36:36 which safety 0 doesn't help with at all 12:36:45 make them system-area-pointers 12:37:07 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.231.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:38:20 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:38:22 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:24 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:38:40 maxm: or use cffi: it doesn't provide the type safety you have with sb-alien, but it sidesteps the whole runtime allocation thing 12:39:10 nikodemus: that is my current plan in fact, the reason I'm doing the timings 12:39:22 -!- francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176431317.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: francisl] 12:39:36 nikodemus: I want to release my boost::shared_ptr<> to lisp thing, so want to switch it to cffi 12:39:37 (and iirc it isn't actually the runtime allocation thing in fact that makes things slow, but the additional scutwork alien does in order to do it) 12:39:58 -!- nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:41:07 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:41:28 its kind of weird how too much declares help with safety 0, but in fact slow you down a bit with speed 3 safety 1 :-) 12:41:29 dim: thanks. i'll keep lparallel in mind for the task that is pending parallelization since a few months. 12:42:43 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.40.68.110.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:43:54 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.137.146] has joined #lisp 12:44:36 passionke [~Administr@58.100.48.248] has joined #lisp 12:47:56 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.137.146] has quit [Client Quit] 12:51:44 c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.224.5.93] has joined #lisp 12:52:26 -!- Joreji [~thomas@ht-210.humtec.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:55:11 dropster [~Kim@port284.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 12:55:20 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-25-14.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:56:45 sub35 [~sub35@196.38.235.106] has joined #lisp 12:57:11 -!- sub35 [~sub35@196.38.235.106] has left #lisp 12:58:10 Kryztof [~user@161.23.251.155] has joined #lisp 12:59:54 nikodemus: I retimed and pasted safety 0 vs safety 1 top 90% of time spent for you http://paste.lisp.org/display/129066 13:00:46 market:advance is just a wrapper that binds global var and calls alien function, which is ::advance() 13:01:04 the different is 2x 13:03:39 -!- metaphysician [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:04:32 also none have any (declares) at all 13:04:36 so its not type checks done by me 13:05:16 maxm: can paste the cycle invoving SB-KERNEL:VALUES-SPECIFIER-TYPE ? 13:05:31 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:06:32 from the non-flat report, that is 13:06:37 -!- BeLucid [~belucid@cpe-066-057-057-247.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:07:09 the bit where SB-K:V-S-T sticks out, and is preceded and succeeded by things indented deeper 13:07:44 maxm: do you use THE? or DECLAIM FTYPE? 13:08:18 -!- Fullmoon_ is now known as Fullmoon 13:08:29 nikodemus: http://paste.lisp.org/display/129067 13:08:31 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@dsl-stat-43-17.mmc.at] has quit [Quit: Fullmoon] 13:08:56 BeLucid [~belucid@cpe-066-057-057-247.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:08:56 no, in fact let me paste you the whole advance thing, nothing secret about it 13:09:09 paste the whole non-flat profile as well 13:09:20 -!- BeLucid [~belucid@cpe-066-057-057-247.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:09:47 (flat profiles are deceptively useless -- it's all about looking at the cycles where you see the caller-callee relationships) 13:11:14 -!- Kryztof [~user@161.23.251.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:12:49 doh too large 13:13:54 nikodemus: I'll email you 13:14:44 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:15:43 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:16:45 -!- shizzy0 [~user@132.198.144.230] has left #lisp 13:17:03 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.66.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:18:01 nixfreak [~nix@mn-10k-dhcp1-5344.dsl.hickorytech.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:25 -!- c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.224.5.93] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:22:16 homie``` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-248-109.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:23:46 nikodemus: sent together with relevant code snippets and their expansion.. The whole inner loop is basically (iterate (while (advance simulator))) 13:24:49 -!- homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-143-155.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:25:03 springz [~springz@115.174.196.180] has joined #lisp 13:25:09 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:25:20 -!- specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-5-45.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:26:28 -!- minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-5-45.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:26:59 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:28:05 dto [~dto@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:57 maxm: is advance-0 defied before advance, so the inline-expansion is available? 13:28:59 BeLucid [~belucid@cpe-066-057-057-247.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:29:23 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 13:30:17 i'm willing to be that's all it takes to make it fast without safety 0 13:30:21 nikodemus: yes, they are in separate files, compiled with serial t, the _0 define-alien-routines are in ffi.lisp, the wrappers with shared ptr stuff in market.lisp, which is after it 13:30:33 dekuked [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:49 minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-80-108.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 13:31:54 ok, i think i see the issue -- or at least part of it 13:32:13 this is on 1.0.50.46 if this is relevant.. hard to keep up with you guys 13:32:37 specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-80-108.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 13:32:56 Flatlander [~tomppa@b27.kiulu.jyu.fi] has joined #lisp 13:33:33 ikki [~ikki@189.247.231.176] has joined #lisp 13:34:28 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 13:35:47 maxm: change (* t) to system-area-pointer -- or put (declare (optimize (safety 0)) just inside ADVANCE 13:36:35 bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-31-30-32.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:59 or add :type (* t) to the lisp-side defstruct 13:37:25 for some reason that isn't obvious to me right now (* t) typecheck is completely unoptimized. the place it comes from is then you assign those pointers to the alien struct inside with-alien 13:37:48 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.137.146] has joined #lisp 13:39:38 nikodemus: ok i'll try later in the day and let you know 13:40:31 nikodemus: you I use system-area-pointer inside of define-alien-type? 13:40:36 i basically just need a machine word 13:44:53 -!- _root_ [~Scalable@li252-14.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:44:54 yes 13:45:19 (px system-area-pointer), etc 13:49:05 -!- sacho [~sacho@87-126-32-123.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:49:10 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 13:49:29 sacho [~sacho@87-126-32-123.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 13:50:01 -!- silenius [~silenius@i59F73670.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:51:48 _root_ [~Scalable@li252-14.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 13:52:54 n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@188.19.213.16] has joined #lisp 13:54:43 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:55:09 Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 13:56:53 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-386803.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 13:57:20 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:58:44 tfb [~tfb@92.40.68.110.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:58:54 Levente [~Levente@catv-89-135-133-215.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 13:59:00 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 14:00:04 -!- harish [~harish@cm50.beta157.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:01:10 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-130-86.w90-26.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:01:49 maxm: thanks for patience. i think i have a patch for sbcl which makes even the (* t) case without changes in user code tolerably fast 14:02:51 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:03:11 -!- S11001001 [~sirian@fsf/member/S11001001] has quit [Quit: bye bye] 14:03:14 nikodemus -- making crappy code run tolerably fast for, like, a while now 14:03:20 S11001001 [~sirian@fsf/member/S11001001] has joined #lisp 14:04:05 harish [~harish@cm50.beta157.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 14:04:10 (* t) isn't really crappy code, but an unhappy case for sb-alien 14:05:06 minion: chant 14:05:12 :( 14:05:34 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-xzsybzshhwmzjzph] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:05:43 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 14:05:43 -!- minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-80-108.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:05:48 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.139] has joined #lisp 14:05:50 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:05:55 -!- specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-80-108.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:07:47 eni [~eni@31.171.153.13] has joined #lisp 14:08:13 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-31-30-32.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 14:08:29 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-060-150.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:09:05 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.231.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:09:43 -!- DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:10:24 minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-80-108.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 14:10:28 -!- passionke [~Administr@58.100.48.248] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:10:51 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-17-198.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:11:10 specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-80-108.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 14:11:14 passionke [~Administr@58.100.48.248] has joined #lisp 14:13:55 -!- cage [~cage@FLH1Aaq228.fko.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:16:00 Oladon [~Oladon@c-67-176-80-90.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:13 nikodemus: thanks for getting to the bottom of it, glad to be of help in improving sbcl for everyone 14:17:19 *maxm* hopes to github the shared ptr stuff, it seems pretty useful to have automatically GC'ed references to C++ objects, and everyone who is not using Qt, is probably using shared_ptr 14:20:19 -!- harish [~harish@cm50.beta157.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:20:43 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:21:04 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-009-073.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:33 ikki [~ikki@189.247.231.176] has joined #lisp 14:24:24 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:27:04 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.231.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:27:11 is there a reasonably efficient way to read a string from a bytestream? i don't know the amount of characters in the string, but i do know the amount of bytes. 14:27:46 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 14:28:40 rogershi [~shiroger@173.208.224.154] has joined #lisp 14:29:12 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:29:35 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 14:29:45 -!- _root_ [~Scalable@li252-14.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:30:19 make specialized array of unsigned-byte 8, use read-sequence on it, then convert with babel or sbcl octets-to-string 14:30:41 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 14:30:43 if on especially critical path you can declare array dynamic extent, donno if sbcl will honor it 14:31:17 c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.224.5.93] has joined #lisp 14:31:32 asvil [~asvil@178.120.66.16] has joined #lisp 14:32:05 ikki [~ikki@189.247.231.176] has joined #lisp 14:32:08 -!- Devon [~devon@vm1.lumi.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:33:06 i had the former, but not the babel portion. thanks 14:33:55 can't you do that with grey streams? 14:34:56 tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.199.230] has joined #lisp 14:35:03 allocating a specialized array is noise compared to decoding the bytes 14:35:24 and short-lived garbage is extremely cheap 14:35:28 nikodemus: in terms of speed, you mean? 14:35:32 yes 14:35:33 _root_ [~Scalable@li252-14.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 14:35:46 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:35:48 ah, that's interesting. i don't know how to estimate the work the garbage collector will have to do 14:36:44 _schulte1 [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:06 but yes, sbcl will respect the DX declaration, provided that either (1) it knows at compile-time that the array will take at most 1 page of memory (2) the code in question is safety 0 14:37:31 (those are in order to avoid accidentally blowing past end of the stack) 14:39:16 pers [~user@076-076-146-017.pdx.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:17 nikodemus: can i figure out how big it is allowed to be at read time? because it will probably always be like that, but it might be different (so i should provide two paths). 14:39:17 harish [~harish@119.234.210.250] has joined #lisp 14:39:30 well, it probably doesn't matter, but i'm still curious 14:39:31 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:11 (also, the stream comes from disk, so it'll be overshadowed anyways. i'm just too interested) 14:40:20 -!- rogershi [~shiroger@173.208.224.154] has left #lisp 14:40:57 madnificent: yes, but not conveniently 14:41:28 we don't have a nice interface to ask about things like that, so you'd need to delve into internals to compute the max size 14:41:57 ah, then i'll stop asking here :) it could be a nice thing to have, if i ever have the time i might try to delve into it (i lack background knowledge though) 14:42:06 but allocating it on the stack is wasted effort, almost certainly 14:42:07 rogershi [~shiroger@173.208.224.154] has joined #lisp 14:42:29 -!- sn0rri [~sn0rri@62.169.219.149] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 14:43:01 because allocation is fast, specialized vectors are very GC friendly, and octets->string conversion is slow by comparison -- so worrying about the allocation is pointless 14:43:42 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-80-239.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:06 kind-of depends on the size of the strings i guess, but i can immagine you're right. i can't estimate the amount of cycles extra garbage induces. so extra thanks for stating that it's efficient for short-lived objects. 14:44:23 nikodemus: ok, changing px/pi to system-area-pointer actually made safety 1 case faster then safety 0 one :-) 14:44:41 -!- copec [~copec@64.244.102.140] has left #lisp 14:45:10 -!- edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:45:17 copec [~copec@64.244.102.140] has joined #lisp 14:45:30 yup only 0.2sec diff between safety 0 and safety 1 cases now 14:47:10 allocating kind of matters when you cons a lot with multiple threads, coz of stop the world 14:47:20 true 14:47:41 *maxm* fights it by setting bytes-consed-between gcs to ridiculous values 14:48:09 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:48:23 does it help in the long run? 14:48:26 maxm: you have a point about the threads 14:49:03 maxm: as in: very high and then manually call gc in sb-ext? 14:49:25 -!- rogershi [~shiroger@173.208.224.154] has left #lisp 14:49:26 yes, if you have 4 threads on 4 cpus cranching stuff, gc every 1 second pretty much drops cpu utilization to like 150%, vs 370% or so when gc is every 15 seconds 14:50:20 that explains a lot in some threaded code i ran last year! cool! 14:50:25 madnificent: I only found this relevant in doing numerical simulation stuff I doubt this going to be a problem for a web server or such.. You'll run out of bandwidth before GC becomes a problem 14:50:26 cpu utilization doesn't tell much 14:51:05 madnificent: I used 4 gigs, which on my consing load gave around 15/20 seconds between gcs 14:51:22 maxm: mine was a pagerank algorithm implemented in map-reduce. map-reduce was built as memory-based structures in common lisp. 14:51:43 *maxm* could monitor gc pauses by cpu funs suddenly going to lower speed for 1-2 seconds 14:52:05 -!- eliyak [~eliyak@wikisource/Eliyak] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:52:30 :D 14:52:30 *madnificent* could do gc manually when knowing the specific lisp world isn't doing anything anyways (of which he has knowledge) 14:52:31 eliyak [~eliyak@wikisource/Eliyak] has joined #lisp 14:52:34 -!- dto [~dto@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:52:40 my stuff was pretty generic GA type stuff working on netflix prize thing :-) 14:52:45 maxm: have you tried different allocation/reusage strategies? 14:53:17 edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 14:53:59 stassats: was not worth it, as it was race against time, and basically exploratory programming.. In th end I had the right idea (same as winning team), of basically creating as many independent estimators as possible, and using ansamble of them, but I only came up with 4 or 5 independent ones, while the guys who run with it had over 100 in the end 14:54:00 -!- eliyak [~eliyak@wikisource/Eliyak] has quit [Client Quit] 14:54:27 or using four instances of SBCL 14:54:27 *maxm* was working full-time, so only could do it for a few hours a day 14:55:23 guess could have done 4 instances, never tried 14:55:45 hey guys, may I share a video about my projectional editor prototype? 14:56:00 paul0 [~paul0@201.47.44.72.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 14:56:07 hi Levente :) 14:56:10 is it safe for work? 14:56:20 fe[nl]ix, hi :) 14:56:20 -!- _schulte1 [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:56:41 the video is available at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeLBFgOGk8k 14:57:04 it shows a number of different documents presented with different projections 14:57:14 while I'm navigating with the cursor around 14:57:32 c0atz1n_ [~c0atz1n@189.224.2.161] has joined #lisp 14:57:32 the interesting bit is how the editor keeps track of the selection on the bottom part 14:58:17 the domain documents are arbitrary data structures (no restriction, no base class) 14:58:34 -!- dropster [~Kim@port284.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk] has left #lisp 14:58:48 -!- c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.224.5.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:58:52 the projections keep track of what is what in terms of input <-> output 14:59:30 projections can be combined to form compound projections 14:59:59 around 1:30 you can see the editor displaying Common Lisp code 15:00:41 indentation, coloring, delimiters, separators, etc. are not part of the high level domain documents 15:00:43 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:00:56 "i don't get it" 15:00:58 KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has joined #lisp 15:01:20 which part? :) 15:01:23 DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #lisp 15:01:34 all of it 15:01:57 at the end there's a document nesting XML and JSON into CL code 15:02:55 stassats, I guess you know what a projectional or structure editor is? 15:03:02 no 15:03:53 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structure_editor 15:04:20 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:04:24 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:04:33 structural editor is a more familiar term, but i still don't understand what's going on in the video 15:05:09 let me explain a bit 15:05:17 netrino [~netrino@94.103.225.148] has joined #lisp 15:05:35 I would like to get some feedback about this 15:05:58 -!- Oladon [~Oladon@c-67-176-80-90.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:06:20 let me explain what I mean by domains first 15:06:37 Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:39 unless its flashy and jiggles and stuff, sometimes its hard to see the big deal for outsiders. The way I understand it, he has a generic editor, for editing a tree of things 15:06:55 that seems like a complex topic, i don't think IRC would be the best medium, maybe a blog post? 15:07:07 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:07:10 where in one demo the "thing" was arnesi's code-walker object reperesenting lisp form 15:07:13 maxm, not quite, but that is certainly covered 15:07:20 and in other demo it was an xml node 15:07:36 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Byebye.] 15:07:38 -!- KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:07:49 stassats, you are probably right about that 15:08:00 so its kind of a generic editor for editing stuff, where instead of text you edit some objects, with I assume some protocol to customize their presentation 15:08:16 -!- sacho [~sacho@87-126-32-123.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:08:32 replore_ [~replore@EM117-55-65-134.emobile.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 15:09:00 Levente: hopefully above is what an average guy would get from your video, and can serve as a useful feedback for improving the video and explanation is to what it is 15:09:03 sacho [~sacho@87-126-32-123.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 15:09:32 Levente: you may want to look at contextl for managing the various representations. 15:09:53 maxm, ok, thanks 15:10:19 madnificent, I know contextl, I used it in the past for web applications 15:10:49 I guess the video would be more understandable if the projections would be visualized somehow 15:11:22 e.g. walked CL -> lisp form -> abstract tree of text -> styled text -> graphics -> pixels 15:11:32 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:12:01 ... and where indentation, delimiters, separators come into the game, etc 15:12:36 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-80-239.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 15:12:37 and more importantly how does it handle cursor navigation in the text domain 15:12:52 Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-030.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 15:13:30 or that I could navigate in the tree domain 15:13:35 are you making a game? 15:14:28 srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:29 or what about a projection from walked CL to walked CL that inlines a number of other top level function definitions? ;) 15:15:36 oGMo, sorry? 15:15:47 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:16:44 -!- DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:16:54 Levente: heh, never mind .. i saw "graphics, pixels" and "game" and wanted to be sure, because it gave me a really good idea for one ;) 15:17:17 -!- nixfreak [~nix@mn-10k-dhcp1-5344.dsl.hickorytech.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:17:28 DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #lisp 15:18:05 let me ask you something 15:18:26 oGMo --> #lispgames 15:18:42 madnificent: already there, thus the synthesis 15:18:47 could you imagine some useful ways of transforming CL code while editing it? 15:18:50 :) 15:19:06 I mean filtering, sorting, inlining, evaluating, parts 15:19:16 nixfreak [~nix@mailserver.dayport.com] has joined #lisp 15:19:24 or editing call sites of a function with a certain context, etc 15:19:24 something slime and paredit don't already cover? heh 15:19:28 what comes to your mind? 15:19:31 i can imagine adding export clauses to DEFPACKAGE, that's what slime already does 15:19:38 Levente: if you're a scientist, you'll have noticed that we don't read and write books in the same form, therefore we shouldn't do it with code either. yet most often we still do. 15:20:20 and there was also that clojure web editor thing, that was interesting as well 15:20:24 the consumption of code is usually through executing its compiled output 15:20:44 if you're reading/proofing a manuscript, it's in the same form 15:20:46 but you need a more high level representation of the code, for example, a function definition, a variable, a function argument 15:21:21 oGMo, heard about that code is written by humans for humans to read and occasionally for computers to run? 15:21:26 stassats: sadly, that feature of adding export clauses doesn't work in combination with org-babel :( 15:22:20 I would like to have views on my code 15:22:37 Levente: ask yourself, for what purpose, and to solve what problem you've encountered? 15:22:45 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.16] has joined #lisp 15:22:51 Levente: the idea may be neat, but without an application it won't see use 15:22:56 madnificent: what is org-babel? 15:23:59 stassats: it allows you to embed code fragments in orgmode. it provides a nice way to do literate programming. i seem to recall you not liking the idea of that though. 15:24:38 so, it's not lisp code? 15:25:39 there is a mapping from the .org file to several .lisp files. but you write the code in blocks, so the structure isn't as easy to discover. it probably shouldn't be solved on the slime level, org-babel should allow for detangling source blocks. 15:26:05 and yes, literate programming is something i wouldn't like 15:26:30 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:27:00 i myself find it to be handy in many cases. it depends on how complex the task is and how many alternative solutions there were. if there are many options, it kind-of helps. it also helps people who aren't acquinted with the source to find what they need to do and how, to extend it. 15:27:04 Radium [~carbon@117.203.17.142] has joined #lisp 15:27:24 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp 15:27:26 it might be helpful when you're writing in assembly 15:27:48 in lisp too! design decisions aren't written in code itself. 15:27:50 or some other abstraction-poor language 15:28:12 it's mostly not about being able to understand the code, it's mostly about being able to understand the context in which it's being used. 15:28:38 aren't commentaries enough? 15:28:42 no 15:28:42 abstraction-poor languages also gain a mechanism of generated code by virtue of org-babel, but that argument is luckily mute in common lisp. 15:28:54 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.40.68.110.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:28:55 incf Kryztof 15:29:21 I think there's a lot of educative and contextual benefit to something like literate programming 15:29:30 it clearly doesn't work for many things 15:30:06 but I have wished several times for one-file literate CL programming, "abstraction-rich" notwithstanding 15:30:12 it's not only about abstraction, there are many ways to look at the same code 15:30:18 yes 15:30:32 "this is code that does this" "this is why you might care" "this is an interesting implementation detail" 15:30:36 i tend to make the source-blocks in the documents larger when there isn't much explaining to do. we've envisioned impartial programming as an extention, but i didn't round to figuring out the details. 15:30:55 but, that's all in theory, did anybody compare code comprehension by people unfamiliar with it? 15:31:18 I mostly don't care about code comprehension 15:31:33 Levente: are you familiar with current lisp editing, e.g. paredit + slime in emacs? I would be interested in what problems with that setup your setup can overcome, if you had any in mind 15:31:52 Vivitron, since 2006... 15:32:00 stassats: for javascript, i found it to be a lot easier to read the code of my partner when he did write it literate style. for my own code, the same holds (but that's due to my lacking memory). 15:32:19 there's the why and the what next and the when was this anyway 15:32:31 Levente: (also I didn't get any audio from your video, not sure if that was intentional) 15:32:52 -!- nixfreak [~nix@mailserver.dayport.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:33:11 Vivitron, oh, yes, this was just a quick recording... this is a one month project so far... 15:33:42 good function names, good variables name, short function definitions, occasional commentaries 15:34:48 Vivitron, regarding your question with the current editing approach 15:35:27 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.231.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:36:16 stassats: all those things make it better to read the code. literate programming makes it better as well. the question is: how good do you want your code to be. 15:36:33 stassats: I think you're missing why I'm interested in literate programming: not for the code directly, but for all sorts of other things surrounding the code 15:36:57 Vivitron, have you ever written code that emits XML from CL? nesting CL code into constant XML and vice versa? 15:37:42 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-009-073.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:38:17 I imagine a representation where XML looks like as normal XML 15:38:28 Levente: i have always wanted it, but never found any editor to be good enough to actually deal with that. 15:38:38 and CL just like normal CL 15:38:52 Levente: well, for cl, it boils down to "if emacs can't do it, it sucks" :) 15:39:03 H4ns, the last part of the video shows that nesting those domains (and in fact different projection pipelines is possible) 15:39:26 Levente: there is no reason why you couldn't do this inside emacs, right? 15:39:50 Levente: you must have seen it, but http://www.chris-granger.com/2012/04/12/light-table---a-new-ide-concept/ is what i was talking about earlier 15:40:13 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 15:40:18 madnificent, yes I have seen, and there's no reason, except I don't know emacs, and it was easier for me to do this here 15:40:31 yeah, ok 15:40:40 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:40:47 Levente: i like the idea in principle. the issue i see is that with common lisp, you'll pretty much have to integrate the editor with the compiler and the reader to make things really work well. 15:40:48 Vivitron, think about editing all the defmethods for a generic method at once in one "buffer" no matter which "file" they are in 15:40:48 Levente: note that the reason for having a DSL for emitting XML is so it _doesn't_ look like XML 15:41:06 Levente: though i think various visualization might be neat that might not be the best example 15:41:21 and literate programming is nifty 15:41:51 light-table doesn't really do enough ;/ 15:41:53 oGMo: sometimes, a certain non-lispy syntax is desireable for a dsl. 15:41:58 H4ns, this is not a code editor, it is rather a projectional editor for editing arbitrary data structures through "bidirectional" projections 15:42:13 Levente: I see how that could be useful 15:42:15 sending code to the compiler as text or lisp form or whatever is the easy part 15:42:31 H4ns: sure. also possible within lisp. however if you want to transform your DSL into something more readable there may be a problem with the dsl ;) 15:42:35 the hard part is getting the editing better than with text editors... 15:42:40 -!- paul0 [~paul0@201.47.44.72.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: paul0] 15:43:12 Levente: you're being very vague .. i can't think of any real complaints with how slime+paredit(+redshank maybe) handles editing text 15:43:37 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:43:43 oGMo, I don't buy that, the reason for having a DSL is twofold: 1. is is *hard* to keep the original syntax, 2. the original syntax is stupid 15:43:46 i can think of things that are unrelated to actually editing and manipulating the text and syntax, but those aren't really in-scope here 15:44:05 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:40 CampinSam [~Sam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 15:45:01 oGMo, again, this is not a text editor 15:45:33 oGMo, imagine inlining function foo into function bar and still being able to edit the relevant parts 15:45:47 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.16] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 15:46:23 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.16] has joined #lisp 15:46:26 Levente: in terms of pulling related elements into one "buffer" for editing, call trees could be interesting too -- but I don't see it as a common desire with call trees or with deftmethods 15:46:39 oGMo, or edit a class definition while being able to see all inherited fields (and being able to edit those too) 15:48:12 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has quit [Quit: Offline] 15:48:27 fowl__ [~fowl@99-117-5-219.lightspeed.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:03 Luke Gorrie has written in the past about why he likes literate programming, too. Not necessarily the full-on Knuth version, but code that tells a story 15:49:19 -!- oiig_ [oiig_@112.161.134.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:49:29 Vivitron, obviously a lot of that is a matter of taste but I doubt that code is the only data structure that is while being edited does not require alternative views... 15:49:47 ikki [~ikki@189.247.231.176] has joined #lisp 15:49:58 milanj [~milanj_@109-92-107-108.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:50:16 Kryztof, I've read some code like that and really liked it (felt like a reading a novel) 15:50:24 Levente: i haven't personally had the need to do those 15:50:34 oGMo, fine 15:51:02 mostly because of M-. i guess 15:51:18 it might be interesting to visualize them though 15:51:36 though i usually work on live objects and the inspector sortof does that too 15:52:11 -!- fowl_ [~fowl@unaffiliated/fowlmouth] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:52:35 another example is tests 15:53:01 when I look at the code of tests it would be great to see the results next to them 15:53:18 a green checkmark, or a red cross 15:53:19 etc 15:54:08 in CL I always write a lot of tests 15:55:42 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.181.24] has joined #lisp 15:55:47 i like luke's style of literate programming 15:56:16 -!- ainm [~ainm@111.Red-79-158-106.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:56:21 i'm really not trying to be a downer here because i have no problem with the idea of code .. markup? annotation? .. but i usually fix tests when they break and often as the issue is raised 15:57:05 Levente: while i don't have any particular ideas for you to implement, if you have a use for it or just want to do it, go for it 15:57:54 blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:04 -!- hiredman1 is now known as hiredman 15:59:27 mrunal [mpatel@nat/redhat/x-fkdrjftevlvcubju] has joined #lisp 15:59:42 -!- _root_ [~Scalable@li252-14.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:00:35 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 16:01:12 nikodemus: that doesn't seem to be enough to google .. any examples on hand? 16:01:55 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:02:24 pbook.el, iirc 16:02:27 jlongster [~user@pool-108-4-74-122.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:35 ah 16:02:46 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:03:07 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.231.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:03:17 BTW, if any of you want to take a look at the source code, it's available at darcs get http://dwim.hu/darcs/hu.dwim.projectional-editor 16:04:52 teggi [~teggi@113.173.29.162] has joined #lisp 16:04:53 Levente: I hope that you share any particularly fun use cases you come up with:) 16:05:24 -!- hiredman [~hiredman@c-24-18-187-222.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 16:07:45 Oladon [~Oladon@c-67-176-80-90.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:33 after all, this is supposed to be a projectional editor and not a code editor (and certainly not a CL editor) 16:09:07 so if one doesn't need multiple views (or projections) on the code then it's probably not useful there 16:11:16 optikalmouse [~user@76.9.199.178] has joined #lisp 16:12:19 -!- joshe [~joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has quit [Quit: brb] 16:13:44 joshe [~joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 16:14:07 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:19:43 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:20:25 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:22:01 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:35 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 16:31:09 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:31:19 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:32:19 Kron [~Kron@69.166.22.139] has joined #lisp 16:32:58 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-244.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:49 -!- pspace [~andrew@67.111.52.130.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:35:27 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:36:12 nikodemus: what is pbook.el for? literate programming in general, or just for lua? 16:36:27 also, if you don't mind me asking how is the work on madeira going? 16:37:36 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.181.24] has quit [Quit: Offline] 16:37:50 dekuked: it's an old script that works for everything that emacs is capable of colourizing. 16:38:24 wait, never mind. No need for colourizing either in the original version. 16:39:17 dekuked: focus is still on sbcl, madeira is still happening, but too in flux for public consumption 16:40:01 now, dinner 16:40:05 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@178-55-38-11.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:40:09 pkhuong: ah, thank you for the clarification 16:40:22 and nikodemus left before I could thank him :( 16:40:35 dekuked: you may thank me, instead. 16:42:44 Oladon: thank you, oh wise Oladon 16:42:59 dekuked: You are most welcome. 16:43:18 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.181.24] has joined #lisp 16:45:22 ok, API question from a CL n00b 16:45:40 (defun report-run (times &optional slow-threshold) (apply #'report (run times slow-threshold))) 16:46:10 the run function returns a list of 7 elements, that are parameters expected by the report function, which prints them in a nice readable fashion 16:46:25 somehow it feels strange using apply here 16:47:12 -!- wccoder [~wccoder@S01060026f3c6bad7.no.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:47:24 Levente: I find however that in code, a lot of time symetries are broken. How do you deal with that? How can you do orthogonal projections when symetries are broken? 16:47:49 Levente: do you know Improv!, the NeXTSTEP spreadsheet? 16:47:58 pjb, I don't quite understand your question can you elaborate? 16:48:05 dim: you could return 7 values and use multiple-value-call, or just take the list and parse it 16:48:22 pjb, no I don't know Improv! 16:48:27 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_Improv 16:48:44 oGMo: I was thinking a defstruct maybe but that seems overkill here 16:48:49 -!- fridim_ [~gucor@gw-free.mpl.smile.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:49:13 dim: probably 16:49:53 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-386803.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:49:56 instead of using a matrix, you can have number of dimensions. You can "rotate" it moving axis from x or y and changing their order, thus giving different projections. Formulas are specified separately from the cells. Thus the data is 100% "symetric", and projections are possible. 16:50:29 pjb, that would be pretty easy in the projectional editor 16:50:40 Yes, I assume so. 16:50:49 the further the domain is from the actual pixels the more abstract it is 16:50:56 But the question is what dimensions do you consider for code? 16:51:16 What are the axis you may project to? 16:51:19 and in fact a spreadsheet in that sense is made of two things: the cells linked to each other by computations, and the layout of those cells 16:51:27 kilon [~kilon@ppp-94-64-182-199.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:51:44 pjb, ah, I see now 16:51:59 multiple-value-call is interesting, thks oGMo 16:52:18 well, I don't quite think in terms of axis, but rather projections from one domain to another (or possibly the samE) 16:52:49 e.g. you could simply grab all functions having foo in the name of any local variable in their bodies and edit that 16:53:05 where is the axis in that projection? I don't know 16:53:29 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:53:31 dim: but be aware you need to return VALUES, not a list. apply is for a list. 16:53:44 BTW: editing code this way gives perfect meaning to all characters on the screen 16:53:51 Ok. If you edit them and add a new function having foo in the name of one of its local variable, where does it go? 16:53:55 (multiple-value-call #'+ (values-list (list 1 2 3))) ; ahah 16:54:07 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-80-239.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:14 thekilon [~kilon@athedsl-189051.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:54:35 dim: yes don't do that heh .. if you have a list involved, just use it 16:54:38 replor___ [~replore@EM117-55-65-134.emobile.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 16:54:47 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 16:54:47 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@182.Red-88-7-133.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:48 instead of "6"? 16:54:49 oGMo: it's possible to bypass returning multiple values here, but well, that's loosing the point somehow, which was to find a cleaner way than apply 16:54:51 in such a view it probably doesn't make sense to add a new function 16:55:01 in a projectional editor functions just hang in the limbo anyway 16:55:05 dim: apply is pretty clean 16:55:08 Cosman246 [~user@D-69-91-136-107.dhcp4.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 16:55:17 they are not put into a file one after the other, that is pretty arbitrary 16:55:20 fowl [~fowl@99-117-5-219.lightspeed.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:23 I've read against it in a paper from Norvig on good Style in CL 16:55:32 but you can always define particular orderings if you wish to do so 16:55:48 i haven't seen that 16:55:52 http://norvig.com/luv-slides.ps 16:56:05 oh, that 16:56:26 now, I don't see that (multiple-value-call #'report (run it)) is much better than (apply #'report (run it)) 16:56:31 pjb, I think filtering would be a quite useful generic projection 16:56:40 but also ordering 16:56:44 -!- replore_ [~replore@EM117-55-65-134.emobile.ad.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:56:54 isn't that massively out of date and wrong? or am i thinking of another paper 16:57:13 and there are domain specific ones, such as give me all functions that call function foo 16:57:13 Levente: well for one thing, once you have that kind of editor indeed the notion of file should become less relevant: if well done, you could very well entirely preempt it from the user, and manage the files as you want (eg. using dependencies between blocks of code, so that there are clean dependencies between files). Or just put everything in a single file. :-) 16:57:21 kilon_alios [~kilon@athedsl-395366.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:57:26 -!- kilon [~kilon@ppp-94-64-182-199.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:57:29 and let me edit those in one "buffer" 16:57:53 pjb, exactly 16:58:09 Levente: it's a simplification. otherwise we need to track the source file and update them (done easily enough with eg. emacs markers, but still, there's the question of new blocks of code). 16:59:13 -!- fowl__ [~fowl@99-117-5-219.lightspeed.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:59:48 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp 16:59:58 -!- schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:00:06 Levente: otherwise, do you mean that you can present and edit the same code either in lisp sexps or in Java syntax? 17:00:22 -!- thekilon [~kilon@athedsl-189051.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:00:24 pjb, moment, phone... 17:00:31 schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 17:01:22 That's an example of broken symetry: the set of constructs in CL and in Java are not equal, so you cannot go back and forth (but we may have a sexpified java, this wouldn't be CL code). 17:03:53 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:03 -!- fowl [~fowl@99-117-5-219.lightspeed.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:04:11 pjb: forth I know a bit, but what is back? 17:04:23 fowl [~fowl@99-117-5-219.lightspeed.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:39 dim: where does it say that apply is bad? 17:05:03 -!- fowl [~fowl@99-117-5-219.lightspeed.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:05:23 fowl [~fowl@99-117-5-219.lightspeed.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:37 I don't remember, let me recheck 17:06:27 http://www.thefreedictionary.com/back+and+forth 17:06:32 -!- fowl [~fowl@99-117-5-219.lightspeed.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:06:56 fowl [~fowl@99-117-5-219.lightspeed.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:46 kslt1 [~karl.sier@netblock-208-127-156-243.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 17:08:00 maybe it says that APPLY is bad for apply functions to an arbitrary number of arguments 17:08:14 then it is bad indeed, anyone will tel you that 17:08:20 ikki [~ikki@189.247.231.176] has joined #lisp 17:09:08 on page 106 17:11:12 so, (apply #'+ numbers) bad, (apply #'make-instance class initargs) good 17:12:32 page 103 too, but that's me misremembering, it's about append, not apply 17:12:41 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-153-3.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:12:53 "Some Ref Flags", Any use of append 17:13:04 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-153-3.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:13:24 stassats: back to my exemple, (apply #'report (run times slow-threshold)) 17:14:14 the run function returns a list of 7 elements (including min max and avg timings) and I want to format a report about them (there's a list of outliers too) 17:14:59 so apply isn't bad, just don't use it when you mean reduce 17:16:02 (apply (lambda (min max and avg timings) ) (function-returnining-min-max-and-avg-timings)) 17:16:08 -!- hagish [~hagish@pD9FBFDF8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:16:12 maybe report's argument should be a list. 17:16:18 pjb: that's exactly what's I'm doing here 17:16:26 Nothing bad. 17:16:28 (well the lambda has actually a name) 17:16:33 sacho_ [~sacho@87-126-32-123.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 17:16:46 good interfaces for programs aren't always in line with convenient ones for humans. 17:16:57 pjb, levendre: I've gotta ask, for the Improv idea, how would lisp translate into data cells? 17:16:59 pkhuong: then I can just call the function and the first thing it does is destructuring-bind, which the lambda argument list is made for, I don't see any interest in there 17:17:32 dekuked: well one problem is that you want to change or define the axis dynamically. You don't know in advance on what dimension you want to "project" your code base. 17:17:56 dekuked: it's just a selection of toplevel forms (or just forms), based on any criteria that may come useful. 17:18:13 1 destructuring-bind, n apply forms. 17:18:58 pjb: what do you mean by axis? 17:19:23 -!- sacho [~sacho@87-126-32-123.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 17:19:37 -!- Flatlander [~tomppa@b27.kiulu.jyu.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:19:42 I've been sorta trying to follow your conversation, and from what I can guess you are talking about dynamically filling out code with arguments a la lighttable? 17:19:44 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 17:20:02 axis = dimension = something that doesn't change for a given set of elements (while something else changes for them, "along that axis"). 17:20:16 dekuked: that can be used for that yes. 17:20:52 I don't have a strong understanding of complex cs stuff, so how the idea of an axis maps to code is something I'm having a lot of trouble with 17:21:22 Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.119.248] has joined #lisp 17:21:38 rstill [~rstill@12.104.148.2] has joined #lisp 17:21:47 dekuked: it's an image if you will. 17:22:12 -!- S11001001 [~sirian@fsf/member/S11001001] has left #lisp 17:22:23 you can define an axis as any criteria you want. 17:23:11 (+ (1 1)), what's the axis? 17:23:22 pjb, regarding your old questions: new code could be put into the limbo 17:23:31 or is it non existent in that simplistic example? 17:23:35 views that match the new code update accordingly 17:23:43 On the axis "number of argument to the function" (+ (1 1)) is projected to 1. 17:23:58 On the axis "is valid CL code" (+ (1 1)) is projected to no. 17:24:09 haha 17:24:33 pjb, in theory you could come up with a common base of java and CL (probably not) and edit the same code in two different notations 17:24:53 although I doubt it in practice 17:25:28 would there be an intermediate language? like llvm ir? 17:26:08 dekuked, an intermediate language is just another domain, and you could have projections towards that 17:26:14 Levente: yes, in theory. But I'm thinking about the difference between syntax and semantics. We can translate syntactically. The factorial example is interesing, when you compare fact in lisp and fact in C. The C code has a totally different semantic. So in theory, you'd need also a general compiler core, to be able to translate semantically the code. 17:26:21 in fact a compiler already does that 17:26:40 so, Java vs. ABCL / JVM :-) 17:27:20 I mean, decompiling the JVM into Java or into CL won't give the expected sources: that's because compiling as we do it for now, is breaking symetries (and losing information). 17:27:50 -!- kornshell [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/skulls] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:28:07 pjb, I'm not sure I can follow you, but this lies beyond the lines of a projectional editor I guess 17:28:29 hagish [~hagish@p57BCF88D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:50 you could also have all sorts of notations, not just text 17:28:56 Levente: in any case, I think you've done something interesting. Do you plan to use on something like light table? 17:29:13 rpg_ [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 17:29:37 -!- rpg_ [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:30:09 I've checked light table and it looks very interesting, although I believe it only does a few steps 17:32:43 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.181.24] has quit [Quit: Offline] 17:32:55 I wish I could use things like that in my day job, but I don't get paid for that :( 17:33:28 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:34:28 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:34:42 -!- sacho_ [~sacho@87-126-32-123.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:35:03 -!- Spion_ is now known as Spion 17:35:11 sacho_ [~sacho@87-126-32-123.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 17:37:14 jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:29 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.181.24] has joined #lisp 17:38:35 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-dgrskzfjvhmhwowy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:41:40 chturne [~chturne@host86-136-158-113.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:41:43 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:42:36 -!- passionke [~Administr@58.100.48.248] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:42:38 -!- BrianRice [~water@75-172-21-21.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:42:43 BrianRice [~water@75-172-21-21.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:23 is there a generalization of the REPL in terms of printing to multiple devices (including a graphical device) and reading from multiple devices (including a keyboard, and a mouse)? 17:45:44 -!- blackwol` is now known as blackwolf 17:45:47 Levente: seen termkit already? 17:45:58 http://acko.net/blog/on-termkit/ 17:46:49 *Levente* looking at termkit 17:47:04 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.226] has left #lisp 17:48:20 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.181.24] has quit [Quit: Offline] 17:49:28 -!- Oladon [~Oladon@c-67-176-80-90.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:49:42 Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.226] has joined #lisp 17:51:19 BrianRice` [~water@75-172-21-21.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:20 -!- BrianRice [~water@75-172-21-21.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:51:20 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 17:54:06 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.119.155] has joined #lisp 17:54:06 -!- BrianRice [~water@75-172-21-21.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:54:16 BrianRice [~water@75-172-21-21.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:44 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:55:34 -!- achiu [~achiu@c-71-198-248-234.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:01:09 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.17.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:03:01 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@209.52.84.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:03:18 mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 18:03:32 -!- Kvaks [~kvaks@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:03:36 francisl [~flavoie@NFBONF.NFB.CA] has joined #lisp 18:03:40 -!- schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:04:16 Kvaks [~kvaks@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 18:04:24 schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 18:04:41 ebobby [~fms@38.111.144.18] has joined #lisp 18:05:18 -!- kslt1 [~karl.sier@netblock-208-127-156-243.dslextreme.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:05:22 -!- BrianRice [~water@75-172-21-21.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:05:32 BrianRice [~water@75-172-21-21.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:59 -!- Levente [~Levente@catv-89-135-133-215.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:06:06 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-244.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:45 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@94.144.63.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:07:51 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:12:39 rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:21 jroes [~jroes@jroes.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:02 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-218-223-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:15:10 hey guys, is lisp a good fit for a web app? can anyone point to some idiomatic web app code? 18:15:44 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.66.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:15:46 jroes: http://weblocks.viridian-project.de/welcome 18:16:38 there's also ucw at http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw/features.html 18:17:12 I ran across something called caveman, is that any good? 18:17:22 see http://www.cliki.net/Web 18:17:26 jroes: you can also get away with just hunchentoot and cl-who if you like to travel lightly 18:18:04 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-65-214-84.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:18:33 what does the model layer look like in a typical lisp app? are there ORM-like systems, just straight up serialization...? 18:19:03 fjl [~fjl@178-25-98-61-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:19:16 jroes: there is no such thing as a "typical lisp app". most people do it slightly different than everyone else. 18:19:39 hmm, ok 18:19:53 jroes: i'm sometimes using my own object database (bknr), and sometime straight up postgres. 18:20:01 jroes: (postgres with postmodern) 18:20:09 dca [~user@178.252.127.251] has joined #lisp 18:20:27 postmodern looks great, I've only begun using it though 18:20:51 hi. what does activation frame consist of in lisp ? 18:21:29 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has joined #lisp 18:22:02 hm, everything I look at seems to have really old last-modified dates 18:22:09 trying to find where all the life is :) 18:22:30 I need to hold together information out of some parsing I did with cl-yacc. That will get used as parameters to the processing code. Would you advice using defstruct or going directly to defclass here? 18:22:35 jroes: "really old", in lisp terms, is 20 years. 18:22:51 jroes: I've not used an ORM, but http://www.cliki.net/ORM 18:22:58 dim: there is no good reason to use defstruct. 18:23:03 -!- fjl [~fjl@178-25-98-61-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:23:23 *H4ns* awaits the shitstorm 18:23:29 BKNR is a set of Common Lisp libraries which together form an environment suitable for serving HTTP clients from a persistent Lisp system. 18:23:34 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129057010.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:23:37 oh cool, I've been wondering about that 18:23:42 H4ns: sure, I understand Lisp has a long history. I just mean to say that I expect that projects would have regular contributions, at least some sort of commit to their vcs in the past 2 months 18:23:52 of course I wouldn't use an ORM, I guess it's easy to bypass 18:23:58 H4ns: if there hasn't been a commit in 6 months or so, I would expect it's no longer being maintained 18:24:17 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-244.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 18:24:20 jroes: if you are looking for the hotness in itself, why bother with lisp? 18:24:41 I'm not sure "hotness" is the point. are you saying that no one has found a bug in 6 months in some of these libraries? 18:24:43 jroes: no really, it is not unusual in the cl world to actually use software that has not been modified in a long time. 18:24:56 achiu [~achiu@c-67-169-43-61.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:19 jroes: yes. noone has found a bug that they needed to fix. i'm not claiming that all cl software is bug free, but many things are just stable. 18:25:45 hmm, alright. I can recalibrate my evaluation criteria then :) 18:26:21 fjl [~fjl@178-25-98-61-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:27:22 -!- rstill [~rstill@12.104.148.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:27:23 H4ns: so, for holding the parameters you would go straigth to defclass 18:28:03 dim: "the parameters"? 18:28:26 I'm parsing a "command" and holding "parameters" to drive a "processing" 18:28:50 dim: why bother with a struct or a class if you only have one instance of the parameters? 18:28:55 dim: just use a plist. 18:28:59 I'm trying to see about rewritting pgloader in CL, so the command looks like PostgreSQL' COPY command 18:29:08 it's a nested list already 18:29:33 I could have more than one command in flight at a single time 18:30:13 dim: i'd use defclass if i needed a class or structure. 18:31:04 jroes: fewer people use CL libraries too. If 6 people are using a library and they've fixed all the bugs that their application uncovers, there are no new bugs likely encountered. RoR and django probably get more new users in a week than the average lisp library has current users 18:31:15 er lisp web-app, not library in general 18:31:55 H4ns: ok, will try that 18:33:37 jasom: gotcha, that makes sense 18:34:02 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.139] has joined #lisp 18:34:08 so something with a commit even in the last 12-18 months is probably in a state of "used by a few people and works just fine for them" 18:35:01 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:35:21 jasom: i'd not say "probably". it is just that the "last commit date" should not be such an important criterion when evaluating libraries. 18:35:33 -!- kilon_alios [~kilon@athedsl-395366.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:35:39 jasom: try it yourself. If you find a big, fix it and submit it. 18:36:28 is the silly "I hate all the parentheses" seriously the only reason lisp isn't very popular? I can't understand what's preventing widespread use 18:37:10 jroes: it is a combination of mostly sociological factors. 18:37:27 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.139] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:37:40 -!- Kron [~Kron@69.166.22.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:37:44 jroes: "lisp is slow", "i did not grok it at uni and never will", "lisp programmers have beards" etc. 18:38:27 jroes: the parens are a big turnoff in my experience. To some extent python is the anti-lisp; its code looks almost exactly like pseudo-code and its standard library is huge and rapidly evolving. 18:38:29 also "I don't want to use the same tool set as my grand-father" 18:38:45 and "it's been disovered in the 50s, I want something modern" 18:38:47 jroes: and, quite frankly, lisp is also losing ground with respect to mainstream languages. its combination of features is still unique, yet modern languages are much more accessible, better maintained and have a larger user base. 18:38:51 kilon [~kilon@ppp-94-64-184-162.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 18:39:03 and "I want compiled code" or "I prefer interpreters" bullshit I guess 18:39:05 Im quite new to lisp and I find it hard to "get started" compared to other language I know 18:39:19 that's funny, I think I've heard more complaints from people about python's 'stupid indentation crap' than lisp's parens. 18:39:23 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.139] has joined #lisp 18:39:30 Ralith [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:36 people just love to complain 18:39:37 python. so python2 or python3? tried it with threads already, is GIL your friend? 18:39:45 specially programmers. 18:39:58 dim: i guess there is a #python channel. 18:40:04 people should have more fun and just h ack. 18:40:07 -!- fjl [~fjl@178-25-98-61-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:40:07 i like the Python in SBCL 18:40:07 hack** 18:40:07 H4ns: hehe, yes :) 18:40:16 sykopomp: but have you SEEN the code that i need to work with??? :) 18:40:25 H4ns: I meant, I'm coming to lisp for those reasons 18:40:25 hacking but with some thought please sykopomp 18:40:31 I dont want to clean up some more messes. 18:40:40 sykopomp: true people like to complain, but my first interaction with python was: ran into a bug in a program. Looked at the code and fixed the bug. The fact that python really tries to look like pseudocode makes it very accessible 18:40:42 H4ns: I have. :\ 18:40:42 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.139] has quit [Client Quit] 18:40:45 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 18:40:45 optikalmouse: i like to get things done. 18:40:55 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.139] has joined #lisp 18:41:05 i like to get things done twice 18:41:13 i like to measure twice, cut once! 18:41:18 "There are programming languages people complain about, and programming languages people don't use." 18:41:29 H4ns: The lisp-loving part of me wants to think that I've seen the absolute worst of it, in that code. 18:41:55 sykopomp: i can assure you that you will not see the worst in your lifetime. 18:42:23 sykopomp: people keep hiding their most hideous creatures, but once in a while another one escapes. 18:43:19 H4ns: -some- people seem to take their most hideous creature, put purple lipstick on it, and parade it around. That's when it really hurts. 18:43:39 sykopomp: right. but there are people who really really really can't program and still do it. 18:43:48 I like to cut 27 times, measure to see which one is closest to the length and throw the rest out 18:43:57 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.173.29.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:43:57 sykopomp: but i know what you're referring to. i don't even see the lipstick, though. 18:44:23 fjl [~fjl@178-25-98-61-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:44:36 jasom: Pylang was my first introduction to programming, and in a couple of months I picked up Common Lisp. 18:45:07 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:45:31 I think judging a programming language by how easily someone with no experience can do trivial tasks is a poor metric, considering how interesting things are generally done by people with years of experience. 18:46:37 sykopomp: but my theory is a more accessible language will be more popular. Popularity is also a poor metric 18:46:45 I like how CL feels like it rewards you for learning it further. :) 18:47:04 CL also keeps you learning new things for a very long time. 18:47:13 exactly 18:47:24 i keep forgetting things and then learning them again 18:47:37 In a general sense, I also feel that CL exposed me to a much wider range of general ideas about programming than other languages would have. 18:47:45 so, there's no end to it 18:48:14 stassats: you can forget everything about BASIC, too :) 18:48:15 my first instinct when I find out about some paradigm or other is to figure out how it would be implemented in CL :) 18:48:53 I don't know where "lisp is slow" comes from at all. it consistently ranks very high in the pl-shootout 18:49:01 sadly, not all neat things really fit in CL 18:49:24 (it's also interesting to push the boundaries and find out what CL (and its implementations) are not really capable of doing very well, no matter how much metaprogramming you throw at the problem. :) 18:49:26 jroes: well, it's slower than C 18:49:28 although I admit I had a similar inkling that it was slow at some point, for some reason 18:49:31 dlowe: exactly 18:49:33 most of the time 18:49:53 probably read some misleading blog post 18:50:05 stassats: haha, well C is slower than the Fortran implementations ;) 18:51:04 which is slower than hand-tuned ASM 18:51:09 which is slower than knowing the answer in advance 18:51:09 I think it may be from the "lisp is interpreted" rumor that's been circulating for decades 18:52:43 puchacz_ [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:53:20 Ralith: my ASIC is faster 18:54:20 than knowing the answer in advance? 18:54:28 that's a remarkable achievement! 18:54:37 maybe it's travelling superluminally 18:54:57 Ralith: faster than knowing the question 19:02:03 sounds like a good plot for a book. Maybe involving a really powerful supercomputer. And towels. 19:03:23 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 19:06:21 There's this thought experiment about how we could throw a computer in orbit around a black hole's event horizon, and if it somehow manages to leak information quickly enough, we'd have a very powerful system. 19:08:16 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.16] has joined #lisp 19:09:20 -!- Cosman246 [~user@D-69-91-136-107.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:09:23 -!- kilon [~kilon@ppp-94-64-184-162.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:10:40 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-214-172.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:11:39 Radium_ [~carbon@117.203.17.142] has joined #lisp 19:12:04 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-132-208.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:07 would't the bits be unable to escape the event horizon? 19:12:13 isn't the time dilation the wrong way around in that experiment (deeper in gravity well -> slower clock)? or is the power of the system based on some other effect? 19:12:21 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-134-4.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:13:05 Involuntary [~Jeanne-Ka@182.Red-88-7-133.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:16 -!- Involuntary [~Jeanne-Ka@182.Red-88-7-133.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:15:30 -!- sacho_ [~sacho@87-126-32-123.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:15:50 maybe it's not a hole but a Kerr doughnut 19:16:01 sacho_ [~sacho@87-126-32-123.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 19:16:19 jsnell: I don't remember the details (i.e. I wasn't paying attention ;). I think there's a causality trick. 19:17:55 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:19:16 ok, wikipedia has an explanation with too many lambdas that I don't understand, but it'd apparently allow solving the halting problem 19:21:01 which kind of lambda? cosmological constant lambda or lambda-calculus lambda? 19:21:09 *Kryztof* is ready with his GR skills 19:21:17 I knew I got that doctorate for a reason 19:22:24 "The quantity omega () in this last equation is similar to the Coulomb potential, except that the radius vector is shifted by an imaginary amount." 19:23:51 -!- replor___ [~replore@EM117-55-65-134.emobile.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:23:57 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malament%E2%80%93Hogarth_spacetime # well, I assume this is the thing. but maybe there's a whole "drop computers into black holes" genre 19:24:32 how long does one have to code in common lisp to be comfortable in it? 19:24:50 about 15 minutes. 19:25:02 I keep solving small problems but I'm perpetually feeling like I don't know what the hell is going on 19:25:47 of course everyone has their own way of learning, but I find solving small synthetic problems to be pretty useless 19:26:09 find something you want to do, preferably something that's best done in CL, and just do it (even if the solution is ugly) 19:27:06 -!- dekuked [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:28:46 I'd just like to say that before looking at that wikipedia page I said that it could be a Kerr doughnut 19:28:55 never has my GR intuition worked so well 19:29:00 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-80-239.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 19:29:10 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-214-172.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 19:29:15 dekuked [~user@mail.kesnermorrissey.com] has joined #lisp 19:30:13 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-244.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:30:38 -!- fjl [~fjl@178-25-98-61-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:32:12 lisp and relativity, how much more smug can you get? 19:34:14 Haskell 19:34:47 Renaissance music? 19:35:18 anyone in (real) Cambridge should come and see me sing tomorrow: http://www.deprofundis.org.uk/next-concert/ 19:35:40 what-a-name 19:36:01 -!- sacho_ [~sacho@87-126-32-123.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:36:03 Kryztof: oh, you mean *that* Cambridge. 19:36:29 sacho_ [~sacho@87-126-32-123.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 19:37:05 Yes, THE Cambridge. 19:37:06 dabd [~dabd@a79-169-214-13.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 19:38:29 fjl [~fjl@178-25-98-61-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:39:12 -!- fjl [~fjl@178-25-98-61-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:42:19 that OTHER Cambridge 19:42:53 nif [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has joined #lisp 19:44:11 -!- puchacz_ [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:46:18 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:46:38 stassats: cantabrigian one-upmanship is how. 19:50:12 ainm [~ainm@111.Red-79-158-106.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:49 paddymahoney [~paddy.mah@24-246-29-141.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 19:57:34 Froward [~uh-oh@206.231.99.110] has joined #lisp 19:57:55 *maxm* reminds himself guy who started icanhavecheesburger.com probably did not go to college 19:58:04 as not to feel too bad :-) 19:59:53 yeah, and look how much he's contributed to the world 19:59:54 :D 20:00:01 -!- nif [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:00:21 brought more smiles to people's faces than you have, Ralith! 20:00:46 clearly I should drop everything and become a comedian 20:00:47 cmm [~cmm@109.65.214.84] has joined #lisp 20:00:50 maxm: don't worry MySpace Tom afaik dropped out :) 20:01:21 Ralith: not to be underestimated, sometimes I remember "the crash of invisible tandem bicycle" picture, and then have good mood all day 20:02:01 ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-116-074.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:03 *mishoo* just had a great idea: start canihascheesburger.com, get rich and then hack lisp. oh wait, the domain is already taken. 20:02:27 try icanhackcheesburger 20:02:59 icanhasglory 20:04:07 -!- fukushima [~fukushima@z128.124-44-151.ppp.wakwak.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 20:04:56 nif [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has joined #lisp 20:05:58 Cosman246 [~user@D-69-91-136-107.dhcp4.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 20:06:29 -!- nif [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:07:43 fukushima [~fukushima@z128.124-44-151.ppp.wakwak.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 20:08:00 stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.151.43] has joined #lisp 20:09:19 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp 20:09:36 rstill [~rstill@12.104.144.2] has joined #lisp 20:09:47 nif [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has joined #lisp 20:11:01 -!- Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.119.248] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:13:36 ehu` [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:15:40 -!- c0atz1n_ [~c0atz1n@189.224.2.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:17:56 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:18:02 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 20:18:15 wccoder [~wccoder@S01060026f3c6bad7.no.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:36 -!- pjb is now known as Guest20981 20:19:27 -!- mathrick__ is now known as mathrick 20:20:57 -!- Guest20981 is now known as pjb 20:22:16 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c24ab.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:16 -!- ehu` is now known as ehu 20:23:53 -!- rstill [~rstill@12.104.144.2] has left #lisp 20:25:47 MrBusiness [~MrBusines@184.99.7.19] has joined #lisp 20:27:19 -!- ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:27:35 hi 20:28:57 hello prxq 20:29:15 hi fe[nl]ix 20:30:48 hiredman [~hiredman@ip67-152-53-125.z53-152-67.customer.algx.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:21 DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-121-60.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:44 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:34:07 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp 20:36:00 whats the idiomatic way to get 2 directories up from an arbitrary pathname? I came up with (make-pathname :name nil :directory (butlast (pathname-directory (merge-pathnames #P"arbitrary/user/entered/path")) 2)) 20:36:36 merge is needed if pathname itself is just file 20:36:50 (merge-pathnames (make-pathname :directory '(:relative :up :up)) pathname nil) 20:37:10 Also, notice the difference between :up and :back. 20:37:56 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:38:07 You can also avoid the merge in some cases with: (make-pathname :directory '(:relative :up :up) :defaults pathname) 20:38:38 kilon [~kilon@ppp-94-64-186-220.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 20:38:43 pjb: any way to get it to strip name without adding extra level? 20:38:45 :up :up :down :down :left :right :left :right 20:38:48 ie I need just the dir 20:39:03 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:39:25 add :name nil :type nil :version nil 20:39:27 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:39:35 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:41:38 (in-package #:pgloader) (defun unquote (...)) (... #'unquote) and the compiler complains that the function does not exists 20:41:52 does not quit work (merge-pathnames (make-pathname :name nil :directory '(:relative :up :up)) #P"/home/max/tt-stephilize/sbcl/t/run-tests.lisp" nil) returns #P"/home/max/tt-stephilize/sbcl/t/../../run-tests.lisp" 20:43:07 dim: is #'unquote in a macro? 20:43:20 yes 20:43:34 in a (define-parser copy-parser ...) 20:43:39 then it doesn't exist indeed 20:44:11 dim: wrap the definition in (eval-when (:compile-toplevel)) 20:44:12 damn, how can I arrange that? eval-when-compile? 20:44:16 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:44:37 ok this works (make-pathname :name nil :type nil :directory '(:relative :up :up) :defaults path) 20:44:45 dim: or, if you need it at run time as well, (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) ...) 20:44:47 that will break just the file loading 20:45:10 you should never really use eval-when without all qualifiers 20:45:12 acutally no its wrong if current dir is not the same as the pathname 20:45:17 I will need them at run time I think (when the parser runs) 20:45:18 stassats: aha? 20:45:26 *maxm* gives up on trying to do the right thing and does whatever works :-) 20:45:35 wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-68-173-17-122.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:45:50 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has joined #lisp 20:45:58 H4ns: which statement raises the question? 20:46:20 stassats: the statement that eval-when should never be used with anything but all qualifiers 20:46:36 stassats: imho valid to :compile-toplevel :execute to define functions only used in reader macro in the same file... At least thats what iterate does 20:46:52 stassats: i've used it in a few places with just :compile-toplevel because i did not need the definitions at run time. 20:46:57 H4ns: it rarely makes sense, but messes up interactive development 20:47:30 indeed eval-when fixes it 20:47:37 kornshell [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/skulls] has joined #lisp 20:48:03 stassats: you're saying that I'd better fully-qualify the function names in the defun in the eval-when :compile clause? 20:48:43 dim: no 20:49:09 oh I just understood then 20:49:22 the specs call that a SITUATION 20:49:34 you're refering to :compile-toplevel and suchlike, right? 20:49:42 right 20:50:00 the learning curve for CL is quite demanding 20:50:17 who cares about the learning curve 20:50:19 I don't know if I'd agree 20:50:30 you can't just use things and pretend you will understand them later, it seems to me 20:50:35 I think you can use a lot and get a lot done without knowing all aspects and subtleties 20:50:56 You can ignore stuff you don't understand, it's trying to use stuff you don't understand that causes some trouble. 20:51:15 That is, if you want to use a feature, best to really grok it 20:51:23 But there are a lot of simple features that go far 20:51:38 i can't say anything about learning, but CL is easy to use once you know it 20:51:45 "learn once, use all the time" 20:51:59 Xach: maybe that's me trying to learn as much as I can from the get-go, but if you want to defpackage your software and :use some other libs and split the code into several files, it's soon enough loads to learn about, even with godsend quicklist (what's a system, and a package, and a symbol, a keyword and a namespace, shadowing import what?) 20:52:35 you mean xachsend quicklisp? 20:52:36 I'm really quite happy to be progressing on that learning curve though 20:52:36 symbol and packages are the one thing you do need to learn 20:53:02 I could code a benchmarking application I needed in like 4h, 2h later it was multi-threaded, that's awesome 20:53:12 stassats: seems that's what I mean yes :) 20:53:29 -!- Froward [~uh-oh@206.231.99.110] has quit [Quit: even in laughter, the heart of Snorlax is sorrowful. and the end of that mirth is heaviness.] 20:53:40 it allowed me not to understand asdf which I still use, btw, giving some credits to Xach viewpoint here 20:56:29 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-141-150.w90-26.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:56:33 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:56:40 _zxq9_ [~zxq9@FL1-119-244-163-13.okn.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 20:56:52 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:58:29 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-030.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:58:29 *Xach* wonders about a good didactic order of feature introduction 20:58:57 Legato [~34tan@auv95-1-82-241-80-196.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:01 -!- zxq9 [~zxq9@FL1-119-244-165-111.okn.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:59:07 Xach: there are several. 20:59:33 I'd place this on first position: www.flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf (well, after basic lisp syntax) 20:59:46 And since you can implement A with B as well as B with A for most of the operators or features 20:59:55 antonv [5d7d31e8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.232] has joined #lisp 20:59:57 mishoo: That is a terrible, terrible resource. 21:00:00 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-17-198.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:00:25 gat guide to packages is an excellent read 21:00:31 It is a terrible read. 21:00:37 hmm, I thought it's pretty good. but I must say I found that document after I understood the things "the hard way" 21:00:38 It will trick you into thinking things that are not true. 21:00:43 it helped me a lot 21:00:44 oh 21:00:49 maybe not as much as I though 21:01:11 Unfortunately it's one of the only things that does what it dos, and it is widely linked. 21:01:15 I hope to make something better sometime soon. 21:03:01 I want to defclass command so that I can register a pgloader command in there. a command is a source, a destination and some optinal options. A source is itself composed of several things, filename, fields specs, file format, encoding, etc. Same with a destination (connection string, table name, columns, etc). How would you design that in lisp, typically? 21:03:20 *nicdev_* could use some tutorial on packages! i shot myself in the le 21:03:37 nicdev_: just read the spec! 21:04:33 stassats`: did some after the fact but and it was helpful but i stil got learn some 21:05:52 so I guess I'm going to defclass source and destination separately then have slots of those types 21:06:36 stassats`: i don't find the spec to be the best introduction on many topics. packages are no different as they have some superficial connection to asdf and quicklisp which probably should be clarified to users that haven't used either in depth. 21:06:51 EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:04 madnificent: +1 21:07:19 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-153-3.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:07:30 packages, require, asdf, quicklisp, that's complex 21:07:48 require isn't really used 21:07:51 dim: it's simple once you get to know everything... but sadly, that's not where you start :) 21:08:16 it's always easy enough once you've understood 21:08:53 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:08:57 minion: packages? 21:08:57 packages: http://weitz.de/packages.html http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/programming-in-the-large-packages-and-symbols.html http://flownet.com/ron/packages.pdf 21:09:16 -!- Legato [~34tan@auv95-1-82-241-80-196.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:09:24 stassats`: i use require often :) granted, only because it's simpler to type than (ql:quickload ...) or (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op ...) but i use it often nonetheless. 21:09:59 it's asdf:load-system 21:10:17 it didn't used to be load-system 21:10:22 and i defined :asd in my init file to call asdf:load-system 21:10:26 dim: well technically if you throw a new guy into EE java, and they want to do all the right things like separate libs, meta-inf, separate class loaders, use maven, 30 different apache libraries, and then deploy 21:10:29 madnificent: it is now 21:10:43 they will have no less trouble then you here 21:11:10 stassats`: yeah, that's true. these keyword functions are to be advised to anyone btw. it could be smarter to hook it to ql:quickload these days, than to asdf:load-system 21:11:15 maxm: I'm not saying CL is *more* complex than other solutions, just that it's complex on its own. To be fair though, compare to python packages and modules. 21:11:25 and :asd is shorter than require, and you can even make it a macro and call it like (:asd foo a b c) 21:11:31 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.119.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:11:32 Fare [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:49 madnificent: well, i don't use quicklisp 21:11:54 in "fair" I mean the development speed and test ability in CL is much better than in python, and Java is awful on that, so I prefer comparing CL to python 21:12:13 maxm: i think the issue is that we don't have modern information sources (read: blog posts) available to help users the way they expect to be helped. for the features it has, common lisp is indeed remarkably simple. 21:12:20 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-153-3.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:12:35 and quickload calls asdf:load-system anyway, and hides all the interesting output 21:12:36 yeah, that too 21:12:37 stassats`: any particular reason? 21:12:50 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-244.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:57 madnificent: i have no reason to use it 21:13:29 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.231.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:17:08 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:17:14 I've not had to use it yet either, perhaps eventually for a project with many dependencies 21:17:40 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.90.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:17:45 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@182.Red-88-7-133.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:18:08 so, any opinion on use-package (or :use) against shadowing-import-from? 21:18:25 dim: i don't use either. 21:18:40 -!- __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:19:15 you only use package:function full names? 21:19:22 dim: ack 21:19:32 wow. 21:19:46 "wow"? 21:19:50 except for big frameworky things, like mcclim 21:20:03 most packages have short nicknames you can use 21:20:31 *madnificent* dislikes global nicknames, uses them too 21:20:39 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-51-207.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:20:53 and occasionally :import-from, when it gets too tiring to type alexandria: all over the place 21:20:56 dim: i also use one package per file. 21:20:57 normally, i :use packages in my package extensively. 21:21:08 nickname collisions make me sad. 21:21:16 -!- bpg [~bogdan@unassigned-178.80.183.216.net.blink.ca] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:21:20 In my interface library, I have a "pure" package collecting pure datastructures, and a "stateful" package collecting stateful datastructures. 21:21:20 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:21:25 the last one I ran into in the wild was between bordeaux-threads and binary-types 21:21:32 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 21:21:33 Now, I'm looking for a package name for things in-between. 21:21:44 H4ns: I'm currently spliting a package into several files and wondering about having to split that into several packages, but that doesn't look like a good idea 21:21:56 "internal package" looks wrong 21:22:06 Fare: shady? 21:22:14 When the outside interface is pure enough, but the innards not so: you may be logging, allocating memory, consuming CPU time, which are impure side-effects that somehow "don't matter" 21:22:49 dim: package-per-file is easier when you do it from the start, granted. 21:23:10 H4ns: but would you split a single "software" into several packages? 21:23:28 depends on the size.. 21:23:31 dim: would you write a framework in one file? 21:23:33 dim: yep, you do, when it makes sense 21:23:34 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-141-150.w90-26.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:23:41 dim: that is what i do now. i have one package for each file. 21:23:43 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.151.43] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 21:23:46 pgloader again, I have to parse the command, read csv, process it, then talk to the database, then you add parallel processing and such... 21:23:47 or with delay / force checking that whether the computation was done yet, or in a non-deterministic case hoping for the continuation to only ever see one non-deterministic answer, or with linear variables somehow ensuring the argument is only ever used once so you'll never see two results from two calls and can side-effect the argument, etc. 21:24:06 nikodemus [~nikodemus@178-55-38-11.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 21:24:18 H4ns: I began doing that and I'm just moving back to a single package hosted in more than one file, now wonderding again 21:24:18 stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.151.43] has joined #lisp 21:24:36 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.94.70] has joined #lisp 21:24:58 dim: i'm not saying that it is the only or the best way. it is something that i've started doing a few years ago and that works fine for me. 21:25:10 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:25:31 I get it, I just want to be sure not to miss out on simple policies that make your life simpler down the road :) 21:25:32 H4ns: how big are your source files? 21:25:44 dim: _in particular_ when working in larger systems, because i never have any name collisions. 21:25:54 dim: use racket or another lisp with a real module system? 21:26:11 Fare: I *want* to confront myself with CL 21:26:15 "not sure if trolling" 21:26:24 maxm: I'm not sure myself. 21:26:28 dim: one of the tools I find useful is https://github.com/7max/demacs 21:26:29 hefner: my larger ones have about 1000 lines 21:26:37 I'm not saying I won't move once I'm done with it (or its basics), but for now what I want to be doing is CL 21:26:48 how about one .asd per file? 21:27:00 dim: makes it more simular to c/c++ land, ie export cdecl foobar()... 21:27:15 where attributes of a thing you defining are next to the object 21:27:23 -!- dekuked [~user@mail.kesnermorrissey.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:27:41 maxm: oh I'm fine with the language as it is 21:28:15 really helpful with defclasses too, ie (def (class nc) () ((slot-a) (slot-b))) automatically gets you boring :initarg :slot-a :accessor slot-a-of for each slot 21:28:29 (class nce) exports accessors etc 21:28:51 some people prefer hard mode :-) 21:28:58 has anyone used faslpath? It relies on one-package-per-file to integrate package management and file dependency detection. 21:29:25 i have an elisp function which adds :initarg and stuff 21:29:29 *maxm* points out that demacs has no dependencies unlike hu.dwim stuff which pulls entire hungry with it 21:30:03 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.137.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:30:22 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:30:22 -!- mutley89 [~mutley89@cpc1-hudd6-0-0-cust741.4-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:30:27 stassats`: i just used the :asd function which i very recently added due to your comment. thanks, it's going to make my lisp experience just that tiny bit better once again :) 21:30:40 maxm: one common theme in common lisp is that there is little implicit interning. i happen to like that, and that is why i've given up on defclass-"beautifiers" 21:30:48 Fare: have not seen it..but I have a hack that includes current compilation policy into ~/.cache/common-lisp/implementatoin-name.../ FASl locations 21:30:53 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.203.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 21:30:59 madnificent: you can even shorten it to :a 21:31:06 maxm: nice. Care to share? 21:31:10 so my debug 3 environment is nicely separated from speed 3 21:31:13 sure just a sec 21:31:39 for xcvb, I *still* haven't implemented caching based on crypto checksum of environment specification. 21:31:39 package:fun or package::fun, I'm not remembering the subtelty here? 21:31:45 stassats`: naah, :asd is just about as easy on the hands as :a on dvorak :) 21:32:00 dim: the first, if available, is the same as the second. 21:32:10 dim: use the second to access an unexported symbol 21:32:26 package::fun also interns fun into package 21:32:37 Fare: http://paste.lisp.org/display/129073 21:33:09 dim: and using unexported stuff generally means that you're doing naughty things :) naughty code doesn't tend to be sexy.. 21:33:50 so I should only ever need package:fun, right? 21:34:01 Fare: also annotated above with making C-c C-k place .fasl into same place 21:34:04 -!- Radium_ [~carbon@117.203.17.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:34:10 right.. a piece of code of mine recently broke because I was using an unexported symbol in swank. to fix it, I had to use another unexported symbol in swank :p (wondering when it'll break again..) 21:34:13 -!- kilon [~kilon@ppp-94-64-186-220.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:34:14 ikki [~ikki@189.247.231.176] has joined #lisp 21:34:20 maxm: nice. Not sure how to make that portable or easy. I wish I had a better, extensible interface for asdf's resolve-location. 21:34:54 maxm: oh, yeah, I still haven't looked into it, but I want to have C-c C-k do the right thing some day 21:35:04 Fare: the c-c c-k is portable 21:35:11 thats why it goes to swank.lisp not .sbclrc 21:35:15 can I haz it? 21:35:26 its in annotation to above paste 21:36:19 *Fare* gives maxm a big hug 21:36:22 thanks 21:37:50 see if it works first, I assume it did since C-c C-k did not gave me any problems in CCL and Clisp.. Hopefully works in other lisps too 21:38:24 -!- Harag [~phil@dsl-243-197-136.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Quit: Eish] 21:41:07 blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:30 eliyak [~eliyak@c-24-13-247-120.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:30 -!- eliyak [~eliyak@c-24-13-247-120.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:42:30 eliyak [~eliyak@wikisource/Eliyak] has joined #lisp 21:43:38 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.104.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:43:59 ynniv [~ynniv@c-76-23-252-81.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:19 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:46:27 hi, I want to install a package that is not in quicklisp (lisp-zmq), so I download the package. But I have no idea on how to install/use it. Is there any links/tutorial to get me started? 21:47:16 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:47:46 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:48:05 Bike [~Glossina@75-175-3-20.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:27 put it into ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ 21:52:53 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has joined #lisp 21:53:35 stassats`: should I run a compile command of any sort or quickload should do the trick? 21:53:51 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-244.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:54:15 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-205.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:56:22 -!- ainm [~ainm@111.Red-79-158-106.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:56:46 quickload will do 21:57:22 alvis` [~user@tx-184-6-180-2.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:52 -!- dabd [~dabd@a79-169-214-13.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:57:58 -!- rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: rpg] 21:59:09 -!- alvis [~user@tx-184-6-180-2.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:00:20 ok, thanks, I have another error, but I don't think it is related to quickload 22:00:37 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:00:39 every setback makes you stronger 22:01:04 ainm [~ainm@111.Red-79-158-106.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:23 how to "parameterize" handler description names in hunchentoot:define-easy-handler? 22:01:27 *maxm* had been keeps re-reading "An Iron Will" every time I don't feel like coding 22:03:19 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 22:03:57 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-23-67.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:18 francisl: at one point the CFFI in quicklisp was too old to use with lisp-zmq 22:04:31 I don't know if that's still true 22:04:56 it is 22:05:12 quick lisp version is 0.10.6, current version is 0.10.7 22:05:32 zmq stuff will be in next month with the cffi update 22:05:40 will be interesting to see what else stops working 22:05:45 ok 22:06:22 Xach: commonqt 22:07:01 Xach: you are awesome 22:07:38 stassats`: I thought that was the fix -> stassats: thanks for patch, applied. 22:07:51 maxm: no, that's another one 22:08:05 Xach: (ql:system-apropos "priority-cqueue") => ("queues.priority-cqueue"), but (ql:quickload "priority-cqueue") fails 22:08:20 am I doing something wrong? 22:08:35 oconnore: that is not what system-apropos output usually looks like 22:08:36 stassats`: you were not able to convince them that compiler macro and function having different results is wrong? 22:08:46 or did I miss resolution 22:08:53 oconnore: what did it really return for you? 22:09:09 maxm: i see no more communications on the ML 22:09:12 so i don't know what the resolution 22:09:53 Xach: sorry, I was typing it out. Copy+paste: # 22:09:57 ok i'll check it out later and post there too.. They will be forced to consider such a crowd 22:10:22 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 22:10:33 i got it fixed locally on the laptop, and have cffi from 2010 on the desktop, so i'm into caring much about it 22:10:41 oconnore: the thing to quickload is the first thing, e.g. "queues.priority-cqueue" 22:10:43 -!- optikalmouse [~user@76.9.199.178] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:10:50 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-244.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:54 well, i cared initially, but then i lost my enthusiasm 22:11:04 Xach: yes, that fails 22:11:09 oconnore: that fails too? 22:11:11 stassats`: channeling rms, that is defeatist attitude :-) 22:11:18 oconnore: how many things did you try? 22:11:35 oconnore: earlier you pasted (ql:quickload "priority-cqueue") which I would expect to fail 22:11:42 Xach: a lot :) 22:11:50 Can you paste a transcript? 22:12:40 -!- mikos [~mikos@188-223-31-58.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 22:12:51 Xach: http://pastebin.com/Af41tZwb 22:14:09 -!- Fare [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:14:28 *Xach* scratches head 22:14:57 maxm: but with that patch applied, i can actually make commonqt work, but i don't see why i should 22:16:21 daniel__1 [~daniel@p5082A268.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:26 oconnore: how about (ql:where-is-system "queues.priority-cqueue")? 22:17:09 Xach: nil 22:17:28 -!- homie``` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-248-109.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:18:02 oconnore: Something seems quite strange. Normally I'd expect some different output before a failure. 22:18:09 oconnore: I can't reproduce the failure, either. 22:18:45 It would normally print: To load "queues.priority-cqueue": Load 1 ASDF system ... 22:19:27 slyrus [~chatzilla@209.52.84.50] has joined #lisp 22:19:34 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p50829C3A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:20:01 -!- hagish [~hagish@p57BCF88D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:20:03 After (ql:use-only-quicklisp-systems) I get the same failure as oconnore (although ql loads my local copy just fine) 22:20:05 homie``` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-248-109.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:20:14 Xach: oh, odd. Let me just reinstall quicklisp and see if that fixes it. I will send mail if I still have the issue after reinstall 22:20:38 hmm 22:24:25 I do get "System \"queues\" not found" even when trying to load "queues.priority-cqueue" 22:25:07 Hmmmm 22:25:19 -!- borkman` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:25:21 I wonder if that's related to gbbopen's fucked up module manager stuff 22:25:51 heh 22:26:05 -!- francisl [~flavoie@NFBONF.NFB.CA] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:26:19 It might provide some great utility that I don't appreciate, but for me it is mostly a headache. 22:26:23 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.94.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:27:10 I am not using module manager 22:27:42 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m83-185-142-102.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 22:28:06 You don't have a choice sometimes. 22:29:55 well, definitely not when I'm working with Dan Corkill :) 22:32:33 *stassats`* still has no idea what gbbopen does 22:32:35 I actually think that your life as quicklisp maintainer would be easier in some alternate universe where mm was the status quo, but that is irrelevant here on earth. 22:32:52 -!- achiu [~achiu@c-67-169-43-61.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 22:33:37 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.64.131] has joined #lisp 22:34:39 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-108-4-74-122.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:34:40 if it does something cool, maybe someone should clone it in Sane Lisp 22:35:05 Sane Lisp? 22:35:31 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:41:24 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:41:29 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 22:41:34 stassats`: it's basically a way of tracking computation across a data set, using an event system. 22:41:50 say what? 22:43:37 -!- geek [~geek@unaffiliated/geek] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:43:39 stassats`: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackboard_system 22:44:05 yeah, i've seen that many times 22:44:24 stassats`: then I don't understand your confusion 22:44:34 i don't get it! 22:45:52 -!- Cosman246 [~user@D-69-91-136-107.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:45:54 the metaphors are too abstract for me to understand what it actually is 22:46:26 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-116-074.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:48:52 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:56:08 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@178-55-38-11.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:57:03 stassats`: content-addressable bag of tuples. 22:57:14 c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.238.60.219] has joined #lisp 22:58:28 why is it so complex that it needs its own ASDF? 23:00:42 i guess people bury things under buzzwords to get grants 23:00:55 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:01:35 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 23:02:15 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-23-67.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 23:02:22 -!- dca [~user@178.252.127.251] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:02:22 -!- hyoyoung [seoz@enlightenment2.osuosl.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:02:22 -!- OliverUv [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:02:22 -!- r126f_ [~ruwin126@120.142.67.254] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:02:22 -!- g0 [~mc@www14045u.sakura.ne.jp] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:02:23 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-68-173-17-122.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 23:02:28 r126f [~ruwin126@120.142.67.254] has joined #lisp 23:02:28 g0 [~mc@www14045u.sakura.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:02:29 OliverUv [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has joined #lisp 23:02:36 dca [~user@178.252.127.251] has joined #lisp 23:02:43 hyoyoung [seoz@enlightenment2.osuosl.org] has joined #lisp 23:03:12 some academic stuff is like that, but some is very cool 23:03:48 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:04:04 stassats`: I'll guess that the homegrown stuff predates asdf's common usage. 23:04:19 *maxm* hopes he has enough common sense to at least separate things into three categories, stuff I partially understand, stuff that looks cool and I don't understand, and bullshit 23:05:16 -!- kornshell [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/skulls] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:05:54 -!- hyoyoung [seoz@enlightenment2.osuosl.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:05:54 -!- homie``` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-248-109.netcologne.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:05:54 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.139] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:05:54 -!- BrianRice [~water@75-172-21-21.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:05:54 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:05:54 -!- ChibaPet [~ChibaPet@fsf/member/chibapet] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:05:54 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.226] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:05:54 -!- teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:05:58 -!- saeftl [cbauerm@pestilenz.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:05:59 ChibaPet [~ChibaPet@fsf/member/chibapet] has joined #lisp 23:06:05 teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has joined #lisp 23:07:12 Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.226] has joined #lisp 23:07:15 -!- netrino [~netrino@94.103.225.148] has quit [Quit: Ave!] 23:07:20 why go to the trouble of adding a half-broken asdf compatibility layer? could've just translated everything to asdf 23:09:33 hmm made me look whats going on with Cyc again, surprised it still has some activity 23:10:05 -!- jsnell [~jsnell@ash.snellman.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:10:19 someone said "Cyc" it is in my keyword list 23:10:20 jsnell [~jsnell@ash.snellman.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:54 what would you be using cyc for maxm? 23:10:59 it's like batsignal! 23:11:16 hyoyoung [seoz@enlightenment2.osuosl.org] has joined #lisp 23:11:16 homie``` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-248-109.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:11:16 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.139] has joined #lisp 23:11:16 BrianRice [~water@75-172-21-21.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:16 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:53 did you know the cyc server application framework coded in java was opensourced? 23:11:59 dmiles_afk: just to play with.. I always hoped something will come out of it, but in my non-expert opinion statistical algos of google just plain work better 23:12:36 and wulfram alpha managed to mostly do what cyk claimed to do, and by now has bigger knowledge base anyway 23:12:56 maxm: what would rms do? 23:13:14 stassats`: probably check license :-) 23:13:22 wulfram alpha though isnt it just a search enine on well crafted knowlege? 23:14:00 acml [~user@217.131.124.5] has joined #lisp 23:14:02 it's also spelled wOlfram 23:14:08 well from the demo i heard with wolfram they made some pretty search result pages.. then had free text searhc ion it? it be like gsimply googling wikipedia 23:14:09 stassats`: and eat a little foot skin piece 23:14:12 dmiles_afk: anyway I know it was opensourced a few years ago, and had it bookmarked 23:14:32 phadthai: that joke isn't funny for a long time now 23:14:42 so really it is like simply googling wikipedia^ 23:14:53 -!- sacho_ [~sacho@87-126-32-123.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:15:01 dmiles_afk: but my general way of figuring stuff out, is to defer to other interested "explorers" to go there first, and read their opinions, before checking it out myself.. And back then it seemed that everyone had problems actually making it do stuff 23:15:19 sacho_ [~sacho@87-126-32-123.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 23:15:23 no immediate reward -> goes to "someday" folder 23:15:36 oh now there is OpenCyc server and LarKC Server (trhat one was opensourced) 23:16:06 oh yeah.. it is sort of a "someday" folder thing.. but... 23:16:33 my goal is to see people using cyc merly as a application server (like Tomcat) for lisp orlograms 23:16:43 for lisp programs 23:16:57 lisp AI programs at least 23:17:23 dmiles_afk: what cool things did you do with cyc? 23:17:30 Cyc's preloaded AI programs areobviously not as usefull as people hoped 23:18:23 -!- sacho_ [~sacho@87-126-32-123.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:18:33 stassats: i made a Secondlife client system that understands the secondlife world as a knowledgebase.. from their it runs SHOP planner ot give ideas for a bot to do things 23:18:49 sacho_ [~sacho@87-126-32-123.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 23:18:53 saeftl [cbauerm@pestilenz.org] has joined #lisp 23:19:17 inside the applications host (Cyc) is where SHOP (planner) runs 23:20:35 so another cyc app .. records data sent by the secondlife.. another cyc app is the "bot" that *use* the planner 23:21:13 so instead of connecting like 4 programs with sockets, Cyc mananges the arrangement 23:21:27 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c24ab.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:21:40 secondlife, doesn't sound like something useful 23:21:41 this "managed" arrangement is declared int the KB data 23:22:30 so if i want to replumb or desiegn the robot i can edit the KB.. or i can make the KB use rules for re-plumbing itself 23:22:48 http://www.aaai.org/ojs/index.php/aimagazine/article/view/2299/2161 seems to be PDF paper showing cyc used in natural lang query parsing 23:22:50 ohy secondlife just give the robot a body 23:24:02 apparently it understands stuff like "patients with oh and thats the next nice things about Cyc NL parsing.. i can talk to it about the application design .. or talk to it about whats in the secondlife world 23:24:50 and ask it medical question at the very same time 23:25:06 or suggest medical proceedures that might fix the program 23:25:15 or ask it to suggest medical proceedures that might fix the program 23:25:57 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:26:19 Health science undergrads have no problem crafting boolean queries with MeSH terms. I don't know why they wouldn't be able to do the same post-graduation. 23:26:21 "have any users in secondlife that know me talked about heart attacks in 2009?" 23:27:01 -!- acml [~user@217.131.124.5] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:27:13 Microsoft designed an OS much like Cyc 23:27:39 every app that it hosted had to be ontologically registered to fullfill certain tasks 23:27:47 well it seems cleverbot algo is actually much better in NLP then expert systems 23:27:55 Oladon [~Oladon@c-67-176-80-90.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:45 so the user or programmer could explain the task they wanted and the OS could fiugure out what apps it had to do it.. at the end the OS wouldnt display a dialog box.. but call the user on the phone 23:29:10 natural language seems like a poor query language, and you got to type twice as much 23:29:32 the idea being the "phone calling app" has a simular ontological reeggistration as "disalog display a message" app 23:30:13 the intent is for Cyc to be programmed the same way 23:31:03 well Cyc NL module probly is done yet.. there would be no reason someone coulnt code it to use tricks of cleverbot 23:31:07 replore [~replore@EM117-55-65-136.emobile.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 23:31:18 actualyl cyc has about 5 NL mopdules .. all of which are nopt done yet :) 23:31:49 the good part is many of the NL modules workflows have been broken appart so they can start using each otehrs code 23:32:44 a rough example would be a "spelling fixer" -> "speech part tagger" -> "fitted parse to logic" 23:33:07 lets say all 5 had their own "spelling fixer" 23:34:04 well at least those could be merged together properly and to all use a unified set of dictionaries insteadf of each their own proprientary versions 23:34:40 "speech part tagger"s dumnp their output to a special data structure that if "clever" bot had access to would make it even smarter 23:34:55 if cleverbot had access to would make it even smarter 23:35:12 is Cyc written in lisp? 23:35:23 (like pretending that cleverbot had no spelling-fixer already) 23:35:43 Ralith: yes.. well it bootstraps common lisp to make a sublisp 23:35:56 then many modules are written in that sublisp 23:36:26 does it have its own defsystem too? 23:36:43 on a practical note, making money with NLP http://www.scribd.com/doc/49612075/Incorporating-News-Analytics-Into-Quantitative-Investment-and-Trading-Strategies 23:36:46 mutley89 [~mutley89@cpc1-hudd6-0-0-cust741.4-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:37:00 mainly to support a wider set of platforms.. but really common lisp runs enough places .. those sublisp programs could be translated to comon lisp 23:37:18 analysis of "tone" and "sentiment" of news 23:37:19 it does have a defsystem 23:37:41 stassats: and a reallyt neato feature it has a self documenting CLOS system 23:37:57 it host a webserver for total intropspection over these classes 23:38:12 *maxm* thinks proliferation of these naive algorithms, is why there now 20 press releases from who-knows-who-the-hell-they-are analyst firms from dubai and india somehow making it into DJ and bloobmerg newsfeeds 23:38:20 -!- antonv [5d7d31e8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.232] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:38:25 and "reiterating such and such strong buy whatever" crap 23:43:08 stassats: thouigh the defsystem feautres can be supported by the hosting lisp 23:43:26 since itself i think is defsystemed 23:43:55 -!- simon_weber [u4119@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mtscoadsdcmlconx] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:44:00 simon_weber [u4119@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-npjrvnanewpslcvx] has joined #lisp 23:44:10 seabot [~dxq@m5md.x.rootbsd.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:29 http://logicmoo.dyndns.org:3602/cgi-bin/cyccgi/cg?cb-classes-display-hierarchy-in-html <- click OBJECT 23:45:52 essential Cyc's purpose is to keep AI programmers working together more than to be an AI istelf.. though administratively Cyc is billed as the AI istelf 23:46:50 since being the AI istelf would be those programmers shared objhective 23:47:38 -!- chturne [~chturne@host86-136-158-113.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:48:29 when a programmer needs a module to check the weather at some zipcode.. they should be able to assert to the KB that request "please make me a function" (get-tempature zipcode &optional datetime) " 23:48:44 think you getting slashdotted :-) 23:48:49 and someone writes that lisp function 23:48:52 me? 23:49:19 well whenever that host above is, it unreachable or firewalled 23:49:42 ah finally loaded after around 40 secs 23:50:07 oh its really slow machine.. i thru it oup just for a few minutes in our disacussion 23:50:22 -!- replore [~replore@EM117-55-65-136.emobile.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:50:57 so someone who sees the KB item.. writes it.. and uploads the .lisp file and adds the CycL interface to it 23:51:08 -!- homie``` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-248-109.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:51:53 then perhaps the NL modules are smart enough to see the new CycL/lisp function and add that to their repitour 23:52:12 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-23-67.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:34 any AI system that will ever be designed needs to have this.. so far only Cyc does! 23:53:08 which really is nuts that it is the only gfame in town 23:53:13 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:53:22 -!- eliyak [~eliyak@wikisource/Eliyak] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:54:14 also with Cyc having SHOP embedded into its codebase.. any app programmer can use the planner just by making sure they expose their data correctly 23:54:55 when something gets better than SHOP (obviously there are plenty better things) the orignal app needs no update 23:54:58 dmiles_afk: so you are actually cyc developer or just have access to it? 23:55:15 it seems if you want more participation from ppl, it kind of needs more visibility 23:55:57 yeah .. just had licence access to it.. however .. LarKC exposed its "app framework" 23:56:17 i made LarKC run comopn lisp code as well as SubLisp 23:56:36 what implementation are they using? 23:56:44 http://larkc.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/larkc/branches/LarKC_CommonLisp_Extensions/platform/ 23:56:52 this is a JVM implmentation of Lisp 23:57:16 it use way way less ram than ABCL 23:57:30 though parts of it are barrowed from ABCL 23:58:14 just the the fact much time investment (over 10 years) was for efficiency that ABCL hasnt yet started 23:58:32 -!- paddymahoney [~paddy.mah@24-246-29-141.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [] 23:59:05 replore_ [~replore@EM117-55-65-136.emobile.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 23:59:15 for example.. "never use arrays as they have index checking" "dont make a class that has to be 'new'ed.. make a static method instead for a function" 23:59:23 and what about the db, ie all these "over 500,000 common sense assertions" thing, is that still proprientary? 23:59:38 LarKC loads the bare tiniest possible KB 23:59:45 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-248-109.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp