00:00:20 tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-28-88.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:53 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-198-36.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:03:32 dnolen [~user@p72-0-226-118-static.acedsl.com] has joined #lisp 00:05:14 -!- Ralith [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:11:14 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 00:11:44 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@cpe-024-074-197-085.ec.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: brb] 00:12:51 mathrick_ [~mathrick@94.144.63.10] has joined #lisp 00:14:01 -!- milanj [~milanj_@79-101-204-106.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:15:16 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 00:15:31 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:54 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c122-107-122-25.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 00:17:00 -!- mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:19:22 ace4016 [~ace4016@cpe-024-074-197-085.ec.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:20:10 now you have to write a slime tip 00:21:00 -!- ainm [~ainm@45.Red-83-61-37.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ((call/cc call/cc) (call/cc call/cc))] 00:21:12 slime tip: "upgrade your emacs" 00:21:13 helichopter [~austin@ool-4577ba80.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:24 hm, i know a related tip 00:24:40 -!- Axioplase_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:24:46 Axioplase_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 00:25:25 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 00:26:28 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-318376.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:28:24 i guess i don't, because i'm not sure how it works 00:28:41 and if i'm to fix it, it'll need to wait till the next QL release 00:31:20 sjl [~sjl@li136-50.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 00:31:55 -!- wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-165-25.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:34:23 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@116.26.26.112] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:34:41 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:58 Froward [~uh-oh@206.231.99.110] has joined #lisp 00:36:16 -!- helichopter [~austin@ool-4577ba80.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 00:37:39 stlifey [~stlifey@116.26.26.112] has joined #lisp 00:47:20 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:47:21 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 00:47:25 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@235-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:48:57 kvsari [~kvsari@119-173-226-12.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:49:05 -!- achiu [~achiu@216.174.109.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:49:22 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:28 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.64.150] has joined #lisp 00:51:22 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:54:47 -!- miql [~miql@ip98-165-228-225.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:55:10 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:55:52 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 01:00:57 -!- kanru``` [~user@61-228-148-40.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:04:41 -!- Froward [~uh-oh@206.231.99.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:10:35 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 01:11:17 -!- __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:11:49 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:12:29 __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:13:05 -!- two- [~textual@67.23.193.215] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 01:13:58 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:14:07 springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has joined #lisp 01:18:59 hmmmm [~hmmmmmmm@pool-96-253-194-175.sctnpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:15 (find '(a b) '((a b) (a c) (b e) (c a) (c d) (d e) (e a))) returns NIL. what am i doing wrong? 01:19:32 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:21:42 hmmmm: Do you understand why (eql '(a b) '(a b)) returns what it does? 01:22:31 not really 01:22:57 :test #'equal works 01:23:05 i just tried it 01:23:30 yeah i get why but 01:23:45 is there a find that tests with equal instead of eql? 01:24:04 (find element seq :test #'equal) 01:25:19 thanks 01:25:44 why do find, remove, et al. use eql by default? isn't it more useful to use equal? 01:25:56 The :test and :key arguments to FIND and POSITION make them wildly more useful than otherwise 01:25:58 hmmmm: no 01:26:23 #'equal requires more computation 01:26:36 Kwucks [ca091892@gateway/web/freenode/ip.202.9.24.146] has joined #lisp 01:28:08 -!- flipout [~user@75-175-122-6.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:28:19 -!- frankaa112 [~frankmax_@dynamic.casap2-210-25-137-41.wanamaroc.com] has quit [] 01:28:24 eql is the default equality test in CL. Given that nearly everything in CL is mutable, it makes sense to use shallow identity, except for a few immutable types (characters and numbers). 01:28:40 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 01:29:29 -!- PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@200.48.22.49] has quit [Quit: PuercoPop] 01:33:43 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 01:34:45 -!- Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:35:10 jazzofilus [~marc@209.Red-80-34-240.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:10 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:55 antgreen [~user@CPE0021910f07ac-CM0019477f82fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:39:20 pnathan1 [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 01:39:40 -!- springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:39:56 *Xach* produces a file with a list of all packages each system defines, plus nicknames 01:40:02 *Xach* will do phase 2, conflicts, tomorrow 01:41:09 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:41:43 that'll be interesting 01:42:50 the one i know about is bordeaux-threads/bt and binary-types/bt 01:42:59 i'm sure there are more. someone said glx is problematic. 01:43:20 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-58-165-252-158.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 01:43:24 *Xach* did not know FLEXI-STREAMS had a FLEX nickname 01:43:55 *Xach* spies cl-json/JSON yason/JSON conflict 01:44:03 not that you'd normally load both 01:45:54 -!- Tordek [tordek@supporter.blinkenshell.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:47:31 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 01:49:08 -!- jazzofilus [~marc@209.Red-80-34-240.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 01:50:24 Tordek [tordek@supporter.blinkenshell.org] has joined #lisp 01:50:50 two- [~textual@67.23.193.215] has joined #lisp 01:56:29 PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 02:00:16 -!- nialo` [nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:00:56 -!- nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:01:09 nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:12 Often you are looking for symbols or other atomic data structures, anyway. 02:03:22 -!- DataLinkDroid [~David@123.208.191.191] has quit [Quit: Bye] 02:05:05 -!- dnolen [~user@p72-0-226-118-static.acedsl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:06:05 nialo` [nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:38 Xach: you might not, but libraries you include might 02:15:21 KDr2 [~kdr2@123.112.78.35] has joined #lisp 02:16:02 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:16:04 flipout [~user@75-175-124-139.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:31 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:20:27 springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has joined #lisp 02:22:35 teggi [~teggi@113.172.42.8] has joined #lisp 02:26:33 alunihil [~chatzilla@111-252-198-144.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:30 -!- nif [~nif@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:40:38 Xach, what does (eql '(a b) '(a b)) give me nil? is it because they are not the "same"? 02:40:46 i am new to lisp so... 02:41:41 -!- SrPx [b128969d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.177.40.150.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:42:41 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:42:56 -!- Kwucks [ca091892@gateway/web/freenode/ip.202.9.24.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:44:36 leo2007 [~leo@221.223.80.99] has joined #lisp 02:45:15 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:45:19 nif [~nif@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has joined #lisp 02:46:20 sty [~quassel@66.49.228.117] has joined #lisp 02:50:08 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 02:50:39 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Client Quit] 02:52:59 Because the two instances of (a b) are distinct objects. 02:53:45 -!- johs [~johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:53:51 johs [~johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 02:54:04 guymann: Equality is a trick business. 02:54:07 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:54:14 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:54:20 -!- specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-68-30.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:54:21 -!- vpit3833 [~user@mail.protocomtech.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:54:21 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:54:28 vpit3833 [~user@mail.protocomtechnology.com] has joined #lisp 02:54:30 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 02:54:35 Yuuhi` [benni@p54839255.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:04 Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:27 -!- Phoodus [~foo@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:55:29 yeah it seems like it... i am a c programmer at heart so would it be safe to say that the two arguments to eql are "in different memory locations?" i know it's not "in memory" but the same concept? 02:56:15 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p548399D7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:56:40 guymann: Better yet: Read "Truth, Falsehood, and Equality" at . 02:56:57 excellent, i just recently ordered some lisp books so more reading is always good :) 02:57:26 oh yeah i have been reading this 02:57:45 guymann: SICP also has a kinda philosophical discussion about equality. 02:58:25 yeah i need to get a copy of sicp, i am not that smart yet though, i'm only just beginning to grasp these kind of things 02:58:40 this explains it perfectly though, thank you for that didi 02:58:49 '() vs () list vs reference 02:58:51 excellent! 02:59:21 guymann: :^) Take SICP in small doses. Also, it's available free online. 02:59:48 ehhh i would rather have the book, i really need to start building a collection 03:00:00 "Dr. Guy Mann PhD" 03:00:08 gotta have some books on the shelf 03:00:16 I see. 03:00:54 thanks again, though *back to repl* 03:01:04 Go for it. 03:03:06 -!- CampinSam [~CampinSam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:03:14 -!- shizzy0 [~user@c-24-91-161-73.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:10:20 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-155-192-6.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 03:13:38 Phoodus [~foo@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:22:11 DataLinkDroid [~David@123.208.191.191] has joined #lisp 03:23:58 -!- PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:25:18 achiu [~achiu@ip68-96-95-213.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:31 jervis [~jervis@dyn-160-39-141-159.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 03:27:17 patrickwonders [d1a20afc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.209.162.10.252] has joined #lisp 03:27:21 -!- KDr2 [~kdr2@123.112.78.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:27:29 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:27:49 -!- patrickwonders [d1a20afc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.209.162.10.252] has quit [Client Quit] 03:29:30 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 03:29:51 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@mobile-166-147-098-027.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:14 -!- __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:34:19 __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:36:02 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:36:21 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-128-12.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:36:51 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@mobile-166-147-098-027.mycingular.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 03:37:08 -!- __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:38:23 __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:39:50 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:41:06 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 03:41:33 Ok, I'm stumped. In "12.34", if "34" is the "decimals", then what's the "12" part called?? 03:41:41 -!- leo2007 [~leo@221.223.80.99] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.95.1] 03:43:06 lispnewbie [6c23a916@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.35.169.22] has joined #lisp 03:43:08 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:50 pop quiz: explain the parentaces in this list: (setf *map* '((living-room (you are in the living-room of a wizards house. there is a wizard snoring loudly on the couch.) (west door garden) (upstairs stairway attic)) (garden (you are in a beautiful garden. there is a well in front of you.) (east door living-room)) (attic (you are 03:44:25 cause i sure don't get it. 03:44:42 lispnewbie: Without proper indentation it would be hard indeed. 03:44:58 Try paste.lisp.org? 03:45:00 original link: http://www.lisperati.com/data.html 03:45:07 it is a data structure describing a text adventure world 03:45:33 -!- les` [~user@unaffiliated/les] has left #lisp 03:45:48 yea but why are there 4 )'s at the end? 03:45:49 -!- two- [~textual@67.23.193.215] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 03:46:06 Hexstream: The integral part 03:46:06 1 for declaration 03:46:19 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-118-107.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:42 jcowan: Ah damn, that was a guess I had but I thought that wasn't the proper term. Thanks. 03:46:52 one to close attic list 03:47:16 whats integral? 03:47:24 The first paren ends the list starting with "downstairs". The second ends the one starting with "attic". The third ends the list that starts with the list starting "living-room". The last matches setf. 03:47:53 The right answers is: "In Lisp, we don't actually count parentheses." ;P 03:48:22 1 (setf' 03:48:36 2 *map* '( 03:48:59 3 (living-room (you are in the living-room of a wizards house. there is a wizard snoring loudly on the couch.) 03:49:14 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:49:31 so each () is a list 03:49:33 Maybe you'd be well-served by an editor with paren coloring. 03:49:48 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 03:50:05 thats compatiable with clisp where? 03:50:05 And, much more importantly, structural s-expressions navigation and editing commands. 03:50:30 The proper abbreviation of Common Lisp is CL. clisp is a specific CL implementation. 03:50:35 structural s-expressions navigation and editing commands. :say what? 03:50:49 Clisp is your CL implementation, it works fine with editors like emacs with SLIME. 03:50:59 so CLiap is Common Lisp right? 03:51:02 In Emacs, C-M-f goes forward one s-expression, for instance. 03:51:19 "Cliap"? 03:51:24 CLisp 03:51:30 CLisp.org 03:51:30 clisp is an implementation of Common Lisp. "Common Lisp" is sometimes abbreviated "CL", but not "CLisp" as far as I know. 03:51:51 Yes, that's your implementation. There are other implementations of the standard. 03:52:21 ok so how do i get slim working with CLisp? 03:52:39 Same as for any other implementation. And it's Slime. 03:53:50 ok how do i install it? 03:54:08 Hexstream: I think they meant slim for vim. 03:54:08 Use quicklisp-slime-helper. 03:54:20 That's slimv. 03:54:46 Silly didi... 03:54:51 -!- nif [~nif@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:55:42 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 03:55:53 how do i install quick-lisp-slime-helper, sorry totally new 03:56:18 Do you have quicklisp?? 03:56:22 *strike question mark 03:56:42 no 03:56:46 clisp 03:56:50 http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ Follow these instructions. 03:57:09 It's a sort of addon, it works on multiple implementations. 03:58:35 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.64.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:58:46 -!- __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:59:31 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.65.182] has joined #lisp 04:00:07 where do i drop the quicklisp.lisp file? 04:00:18 __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:47 Wherever is convenient for you. Your home directory should work. It's just an installer. 04:01:10 lispnewbie: download it: http://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp 04:01:19 i'm getting cannot load file 04:01:32 (load "quicklisp.lisp") 04:02:21 Perhaps it's not in clisp's working directory. 04:03:25 try the full path 04:05:21 gko [~gko@220.228.255.202] has joined #lisp 04:05:24 done quicklisp is installed and autoloaded 04:05:58 (ql:quickload "quicklisp-slime-helper") 04:06:04 -!- ghuntley [~ghuntley@CPE-60-225-85-11.hhui2.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:06:13 -!- benny [~benny@i577A1C49.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:06:36 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 04:07:42 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 04:08:41 ok its installed how do i use it? 04:09:12 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #lisp 04:09:56 so now that it's installed, how do i use it? 04:11:58 You have emacs, right? 04:12:49 no 04:13:05 ghuntley [~ghuntley@CPE-60-225-85-11.hhui2.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 04:15:25 evening 04:17:12 borkman` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:17:28 -!- gko [~gko@220.228.255.202] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:17:55 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:18:51 got emacs 23.4 VERY EXCITED, now what? 04:19:01 yay! 04:19:22 https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-slime-helper take a look at the readme 04:19:24 get SLIME and PAREDIT if you want some sick gagdets to install 04:20:04 You want "clisp" rather than "sbcl", probably. 04:20:29 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 04:21:22 -!- borkman [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:21:51 really I thought SBCL was better 04:22:09 yea using clisp 04:22:12 lispnewbie is using clisp presently. I use sbcl too, but there's no need to change everything at once. 04:22:26 ok 04:22:45 In your ~/.emacs, you could have something like this: (load (expand-file-name "~/quicklisp/slime-helper.el")) (setq inferior-lisp-program "sbcl") where is .emacs? 04:23:02 What operating system are you using? 04:23:19 windows vista 04:23:25 Regardless of OS, from within Emacs, ~/.emacs should be correct 04:24:03 so just paste it and then press ctrl + alt + M? 04:26:03 guys? 04:26:05 just paste it and save the file, it will load when you start emacs 04:26:57 -!- borkman` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:27:01 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:27:20 Or if you don't want to restart your Emacs, hit C-x C-e after each line 04:28:18 saved it as .emacs in c"\emacs 04:29:50 how do i know it's being loaded? 04:30:50 got to go bye 04:30:52 -!- lispnewbie [6c23a916@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.35.169.22] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:31:24 -!- impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176314164.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:31:56 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:32:13 Is the Slime in Quicklisp that much better than the one distributed with Emacs? 04:32:30 -!- ghuntley [~ghuntley@CPE-60-225-85-11.hhui2.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:33:29 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:34:14 emacs distributes slime now? 04:35:02 Hmm... Thought so maybe not, I guess I have the Debian package installed. 04:35:16 So is the Slime in Quicklisp better than the one in Debian? :) 04:35:32 I wouldn't know, I don't use either 04:36:18 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:36:35 What do you use? Something awesomer? 04:37:13 I just use slime git 04:37:34 Ah. 04:37:35 ghuntley [~ghuntley@CPE-60-225-85-11.hhui2.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 04:37:39 Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.226] has joined #lisp 04:37:57 stlifey_ [~stlifey@116.26.29.67] has joined #lisp 04:40:37 PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 04:40:40 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@116.26.26.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:41:15 -!- Kynes`_ is now known as Kynes` 04:41:34 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 04:42:38 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:42:54 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:43:04 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@rrcs-67-79-36-131.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:44:07 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:44:21 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:45:36 gigamonkey 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Connection reset by peer] 06:01:51 docAvid: the quicklisp slime is the one that is likely to work with quicklisp-slime-helper. 06:02:04 jayne [~jayne@freenode/staff/jayne] has joined #lisp 06:03:01 achiu [~achiu@ip68-96-95-213.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:03:51 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 06:04:11 two- [~textual@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:04:30 -!- mklappstuhl [~martin@e179015090.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:06:36 kornshell [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/skulls] has joined #lisp 06:07:59 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:08:36 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.57.232] has joined #lisp 06:08:37 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.57.232] has quit [Changing host] 06:08:37 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 06:10:09 Harag [~phil@dsl-243-180-239.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:11:02 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@dsl-stat-43-17.mmc.at] has joined #lisp 06:12:17 -!- hmmmm [~hmmmmmmm@pool-96-253-194-175.sctnpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Just according to keikaku] 06:12:28 Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.226] has joined #lisp 06:14:34 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-14-2.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 06:15:07 DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-14-2.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 06:17:31 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 06:18:37 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-hbwkrwanctglflti] has joined #lisp 06:21:31 -!- mel0on [1000@h-73-200.a146.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:22:02 is there a reason besides pre-ANSI CL compatibility to use #'(LAMBDA instead of just (LAMBDA ?? 06:22:37 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.226] has quit [Quit: #WeeChat #Mises #emacs] 06:23:03 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-19.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:23:54 -!- kvsari [~kvsari@119-173-226-12.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:25:13 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.45.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:25:43 Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.226] has joined #lisp 06:25:43 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:26:04 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 06:27:01 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:27:38 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.226] has left #lisp 06:27:56 Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 06:32:08 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:36:25 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:36:38 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@206.126.93.212] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 06:36:41 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-ytzadqjmutfvmtfd] has joined #lisp 06:37:55 No. 06:38:04 vervic [~vervic@vie-078-142-134-243.dsl.sil.at] has joined #lisp 06:38:22 gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 06:38:53 kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-34-42.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 06:41:34 DataLinkDroid: I like the visual reminder of #' that it's something callable. 06:42:48 homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-193-51.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:44:06 -!- wbooze- [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-165-25.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:44:50 benny` [~benny@i577A1506.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:44:54 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-193-51.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:44:58 -!- OliverUv [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:45:22 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-165-25.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:46:30 -!- djinni` [~djinni@li125-242.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:46:38 OliverUv [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has joined #lisp 06:46:41 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.107.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:48:15 djinni` [~djinni@li125-242.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 06:48:38 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:48:38 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:49:54 DataLinkDroid: (lambda ...) is a special name parameter given to the FUNCTION special operator 06:50:20 it's actually not a "call" on its own, except it macroexpands to (function (lambda ...)), and FUNCTION does the right thing with it 06:51:00 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-34-42.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:51:05 so (lambda ...) is just syntactic macro sugar for the "real" #'(lambda ...) 06:51:16 I personally never use the #' there 06:51:43 jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-188.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:55:32 -!- vervic [~vervic@vie-078-142-134-243.dsl.sil.at] has quit [Quit: vervic] 06:55:56 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping 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07:14:57 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181241043.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:16:53 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-6-3.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:18:42 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:19:03 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:23:26 Radium [~carbon@117.203.4.108] has joined #lisp 07:24:00 good morning 07:27:47 -!- PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:28:16 -!- DataLinkDroid [~David@123.208.191.191] has quit [Quit: Bye] 07:28:19 -!- nialo` [nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:30:51 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:32:12 gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 07:34:23 Flatlander [~tomppa@b27.kiulu.jyu.fi] has joined #lisp 07:36:22 rme [~rme@50.43.137.11] has joined #lisp 07:37:41 BigHugeDog [~QQ@221.0.11.215] 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safe for work] 09:58:07 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:58:28 Is that a good Bacteria or a bad Bacteria? 09:58:53 Sounds dangerous 10:00:58 Well, I try to be good 10:01:05 Occasionaly I break stuff in the lab 10:01:41 Or I "fix" my compute cluster 10:03:25 treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp 10:08:42 -!- springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 10:10:27 sn0rri [~sn0rri@62.169.219.149] has joined #lisp 10:15:54 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 10:16:55 -!- gko [~gko@220.228.255.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:19:32 kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-34-42.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 10:20:02 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-201.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:20:39 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-193-51.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:25:48 -!- antov [2e35c31b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.27] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:26:43 Matt_S_G [~Matt_S_G@gateway/tor-sasl/mattsg/x-78535695] has joined #lisp 10:32:29 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:33:06 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:34:05 greaver [~jo@41.138.11.188] has joined #lisp 10:38:09 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 12.0/20120403211507]] 10:38:27 -!- minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-68-30.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:38:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:39:01 minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-68-30.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 10:39:02 specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-68-30.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 10:39:12 add^_ [~add^_^@m90-141-49-231.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 10:40:08 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-193-51.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:44:38 -!- mathrick_ is now known as mathrick 10:52:25 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:56:58 -!- dropster [~Kim@port284.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:57:15 dropster [~Kim@port284.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 11:01:15 <|42|> good afternoon lispers, can you suggest a good starting point to learn about rule based system programming? expert systems? some software in common lisp on those subjects to read through? 11:01:49 Have a look at LISA ; read PAIP, and expert system books. 11:02:09 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:02:26 Use google. 11:02:36 42: Prolog. 11:02:39 Check also http://cliki.net/ 11:02:43 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:04:29 -!- mensch [~mensch@c-67-189-240-148.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:06:02 -!- dropster 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joined #lisp 12:21:16 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:21:24 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:21:26 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 12:27:29 lispnewbie [6c23a916@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.35.169.22] has joined #lisp 12:27:55 um the code highlighting in emacs doesn't work 12:28:35 nevermind forgot to enable it 12:28:36 did you do M-x global-font-lock-mode 12:28:41 haha 12:29:02 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 12:29:13 so what does slime do? 12:29:13 dim [~dim@prometheus.naquadah.org] has joined #lisp 12:29:27 it makes me a happy bunny 12:29:40 ha ha 12:30:00 no really after going through all that how do i use it? 12:30:13 minion: please tell lispnewbie about slime.mov 12:30:14 lispnewbie: look at slime.mov: "using SLIME" video by Marco Baringer, http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov 12:30:31 minion: please tell lispnewbie about PCL 12:30:32 lispnewbie: have a look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 12:31:02 lispnewbie: The easiest way to install slime is with quicklisp and (ql:quickload "quicklisp-slime-helper"). After it's set up, you write code into a file and send it to CL with C-c C-c or similar key combinations. 12:31:19 http://mohiji.nfshost.com/2011/01/modern-common-lisp-on-linux/ has some good info 12:31:44 C-c C-c? 12:32:15 lispnewbie: M-x help-with-tutorial 12:32:33 whats M-x? 12:32:49 Alt-x 12:33:14 sn0rri [~sn0rri@62.169.219.149] has joined #lisp 12:33:24 No. 12:33:32 C-c C-c is undifined 12:33:38 M-x is Meta-x, read the emacs tutorial: Control-h t 12:34:00 lispnewbie: the mohiji link might help you get things set up properly. 12:34:01 Meta-x is Alt-x 12:34:15 No. 12:34:39 alright, go ahead, confuse people all you want 12:34:58 gtg to work bye see you later 12:35:01 -!- lispnewbie [6c23a916@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.35.169.22] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:35:02 lispnewbie: C-c C-c should be launched from .lisp file 12:35:03 M-x is bound to execute-extended-command, A-x is bound to self-insert-command, and inserts: ×. 12:35:17 pjb: you're not helping 12:35:44 -!- sn0rri [~sn0rri@62.169.219.149] has quit [Client Quit] 12:36:07 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:36:23 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:37:24 gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 12:38:29 snearch [~snearch@f053007130.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:41:25 -!- DGASAU` [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 12:44:08 -!- gekko_ [~jjk@78.157.103.6] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 12:45:04 -!- Jordan_U [~jordan@216.57.70.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:46:18 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:46:41 Jordan_U [~jordan@216.57.70.194] has joined #lisp 12:47:27 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.43.79] has joined #lisp 12:49:06 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-58-165-252-158.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:50:38 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053007130.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 12:54:18 <|42|> minion : logs 12:54:31 minion: logs 12:54:31 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 12:54:41 <|42|> heh, ty 12:54:53 minion, can you hear me? 12:54:55 watch out, you'll make krystof angry 13:03:31 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:08:58 -!- retupmoca [~retupmoca@adsl-99-119-128-139.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:11:17 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-136-178.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:12:06 cvandusen [~user@68-90-30-246.ded.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:10 joachifm [~user@ti0150a340-0614.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 13:14:25 c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.238.48.245] has joined #lisp 13:15:08 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 13:17:44 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:21:15 -!- vervic [~vervic@vie-078-142-134-243.dsl.sil.at] has left #lisp 13:22:10 -!- treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:23:58 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE0021910f07ac-CM0019477f82fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:24:20 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.197.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:25:54 I use paredit, and I'm aware of redshank, but what are some other elisp treats for CL hackers? 13:27:30 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 13:27:34 *maxm--* has a thing that is to paredit as paredit is to notepad, but it needs much polishing before releasing, and default keybindings are all vi based 13:28:28 mikos [~mikos@188-223-31-58.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:28:36 general idea is to allow defining a syntaxic matcher for the place where the point is, so editing commands such as backspace, enter, etc, can be customized based on syntaxic context 13:29:40 maxm-- sounds potentially confusing 13:29:54 so that ) in the (let ((var (blah baz) closes, does newline and opens () on next line with point inside 13:30:34 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:30:41 maxm--: screencast time! 13:30:52 metaphysician [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 13:31:15 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.197.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 13:31:19 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:31:59 ... and deletes the final empty () on when closing the let binds list? 13:32:39 flat actually I made mistake, it just goes to new line, then you type ( to open new var :-) 13:32:45 *Xach* was extremely unmotivated to switch from ilisp to slime until seeing the screencast - hard to get an idea of interaction from prose + pictures sometimes 13:33:01 isn't that what paredit already does? 13:33:04 *maxm--* need to do the show keys thing, otherwise it will be confusing 13:33:39 well, yeah. It's probably hard to describe something like that verbally 13:33:47 Flatlander: I'll make a video, a bit later.. its to paredit, what paredit is to notepad.. well tiny exaturation :-) 13:34:33 sounds interesting 13:34:59 although paredit alone has already destroyed my ability to write lisp with lesser editors 13:36:03 SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:26 I tried using DrRacket for a while one day and I felt like a total noob, with continuously making paren mismatch errors 13:36:41 -!- metaphysician [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:37:15 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 13:40:01 -!- zipace [~hi@unaffiliated/zipace] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:40:29 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:41:18 <|42|> slime paredit and hl-sexp made me love emacs 13:42:21 PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 13:42:29 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.235] has joined #lisp 13:42:52 so had a chance to talk to the former maintainer of cl-objc. He says the main failure of the project and why it was abandonned is because it didn't build a community around it and CCL did. 13:43:04 I don't know how to feel about that statement, honestly. 13:43:15 What do you guys think? 13:43:33 <|42|> sounds legit 13:43:52 *Bacteria* concurs 13:44:17 I'm kinda peeved about the fact that this has resulted in a single-provider situation. CCL is an implemenation, whereas cl-objc was a package. 13:44:27 lisp world is small, and everyone is on a web bandwagon right now 13:44:41 so anything non-web-related generally will have tiny following if any 13:44:43 hear hear. 13:44:55 kanru``` [~user@61-228-148-40.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:55 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:45:04 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:45:13 <|42|> Shaftoe: afaik most of their objc stuff is in contribs 13:45:22 maybe I do it still out of academic curiosity... 13:45:35 Do it still. 13:45:37 |42|: I'm not saying it's closed. I'm saying it's built in. 13:45:39 maxm--, it's pretty much the same with all fringe languages 13:45:44 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:45:53 Xach: you know, I actually came here to hear you say that, and you didn't disappoint =) 13:45:57 thank you! =) 13:46:17 Shaftoe: CFFI is updating soon for struct passing & return 13:46:30 Nice. That's the other main roadblock he mentionned. 13:46:47 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 13:47:22 sezo [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 13:47:29 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs27100107.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:47:44 and I Was also thinking that this is a special case of portability: this package only makes sense on a darwin implementation. So having code that fills in what CFFI ought to do, even if at an assembly level, wouldn't be so out-there that it would be unacceptable. AFter all, an mach-o image is a mach-o image. 13:48:14 -!- bjonnh [~bjonnh@147.210.71.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:48:34 and yes, now that you say CFFI is planning on filling that void anyways, it really only leaves this concept of "the community didn't materialize" 13:48:48 alright. I'll brood some more. 13:49:34 -!- phrixos_ [~foo@unaffiliated/phrixos] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:49:52 lisp logo should emmanual zorg picture captioned with the "if you want it done, do yourself" catchphrase 13:50:02 surprisinly google did not find one already made 13:50:30 phrixos [~foo@unaffiliated/phrixos] has joined #lisp 13:54:00 -!- phrixos [~foo@unaffiliated/phrixos] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:56:36 afternoon 13:57:22 *Xach* uses CL to make http://i.imgur.com/zbMeo.jpg 13:58:07 phrixos [~foo@unaffiliated/phrixos] has joined #lisp 13:58:07 hi nikodemus 13:58:47 Xach: what movie is that from ? 13:58:59 fe[nl]ix: 5th element 13:59:29 -!- dropster [~Kim@port284.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk] has left #lisp 14:01:16 Xach: re. ghprojects 14:01:26 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:01:55 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:01:55 -!- minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-68-30.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:01:55 -!- specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-68-30.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:02:06 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 14:02:19 ainm [~ainm@203.Red-83-36-190.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:02:39 Xach: i was thinking that there are at least three "natural" modes of operation 14:02:45 hi 14:03:23 That do it yourself attitude though, can lead to The Curse. Which is very real. 14:03:32 (imo) 14:03:38 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:04:39 minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-68-30.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 14:04:45 Shaftoe: What curse? 14:04:54 froydnj [nfroyd@people.mozilla.com] has joined #lisp 14:05:03 specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-68-30.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 14:06:08 Xach: you should put milla jovovich then 14:06:11 Xach: (1) short-turnover feed as now (2) summary feed with a weekly or monthly periodicity, grouping repos by project (3) a website that gives you that summary view since your last visit (or specified time) 14:06:29 (i'm not going to touch #3, just noting that it's there) 14:07:15 Posterdati: What did Milla Jovovich say that relates to Lisp? 14:07:28 What would be the fastest way to manipulate a 2d array of 32 bit elements? Bitmap images, that is. 14:07:29 nikodemus: grouping repos by project? 14:08:27 like: heroku-cl-foo (3 forks): person1, person2, person3 14:08:32 ah 14:08:43 I tried an array of (integer 0 #xffffffff) but it seemed quite slow 14:09:11 Flatlander: (unsigned-byte 32) is often a good type 14:09:26 Xach: He's wounded. The infection's spreading. 14:09:27 multi-ti-pass sounds lispish 14:09:47 mul-ti-dispatch? 14:09:57 Xach: It's nothing personal. But in an hour, maybe two, you'll be dead. And moments later, you'll become one of them. You'll endanger your friends, try to kill them, probably succeed. I'm sorry. That's just the way it is. 14:10:06 Xach: i could be doing something wrong but it still seems a bit too slow to be usable 14:10:17 Xach: related to a programmer switching to Lisp from c/c++ 14:10:19 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 14:10:22 Flatlander: It could be both. 14:10:23 Flatlander: depends on the implementation. Some implementations don't have specalized arrays for unsigned-byte 32, so the best you can do is fixnum. 14:10:25 Greetings lispers 14:10:37 Flatlander: what do you want to do with the data? 14:10:56 Also sbcl missed a chance when giving error for (case) to do (error "Zorg: This case is empty!") 14:11:24 for all of these, it seems to me that it would be nice to highlight entirely new projects -- not necessarily based on explicit forking knowledge, but rather the project name. so: cl-ppcre (3 forks): foo, bar, quux; (1 new): guy-who-has-a-cl-ppcre-repo-that-he-didn't-fork 14:11:35 Xach: basic image manipulation stuff; filters, drawing, maybe store in an opengl texture 14:12:13 nikodemus: sounds cool 14:12:31 so we can detect actually new projects 14:12:33 Xach: there are already a handful of different image manipulation libraries for CL but most of them are dead and/or cover just some subset of the required tasks 14:12:58 Flatlander: When I do that in vecto, I use an array of type (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (*)) for 8 bits per channel. It's fast enough for what I do, YMMV. 14:13:04 this gets me into keeping a db of "seen before" project names, possibly having some of them curated with human verified "official" upstream repos 14:13:46 Flatlander: opticl is not dead, maybe slyrus can help you 14:14:18 Xach, I'll have to try that. Currently I'm bitshifting around a 32 bit integers but I don't know if there is any practical difference, with SBCL 14:14:37 morning 14:14:41 while i can easily make something i'm happy to run periodically for myself, what sort of things are you willing to see in the version you'd run? 14:15:00 Flatlander: check out modular artithmetic in the sbcl manual 14:15:10 nikodemus: right, thanks 14:15:40 optikalmouse [~user@76.9.199.178] has joined #lisp 14:15:48 Flatlander: also, you can use sb-ext:array-storage-vector to pull out the 1d vector underlying the 2d one -- accessing that has one less indirection 14:16:08 nikodemus: I don't have any intent to make updates any time soon 14:16:14 nikodemus, wow, that's what I was going to ask about next :) 14:16:16 ok 14:16:36 Ok, now for a true challenge: there's a SciFi book (written more than 30 years ago), where the protagonist is a female programmer who writes an AI in Lisp (there's even examples of computer interactions written with sexps). What's the title or author? 14:16:38 schmx: the curse of rebuilding everything from scratch every time the need arises. 14:16:42 Flatlander: alternatively, use 1d array in the first place 14:16:49 clhs r-m-a 14:16:49 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_row_ma.htm 14:16:53 hm 14:16:55 Flatlander: https://github.com/slyrus/cl-opengl-test/blob/master/opticl-opengl.lisp is a simple example of using opticl with opengl 14:17:05 specbot should tell to what it expands things 14:17:14 slyrus, I'll check it 14:17:29 kvsari [~kvsari@119-173-226-23.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:18:56 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:19:43 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-34-42.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:20:20 does the gl:tex-image-2d in the example somehow send the array directly to opengl or does it get converted at somepoint 14:20:40 sn0rri [~sn0rri@213.249.49.158] has joined #lisp 14:20:56 stassats`: if it expanded to l1sp.org links it would be obvious 14:20:56 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 14:21:03 clhs r-m-a 14:21:04 row-major-aref: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_row_ma.htm 14:21:19 -!- ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:21:23 clhs row-major-aref 14:21:24 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_row_ma.htm 14:21:28 except l1sp.org doesn't do # properly 14:21:34 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs27100107.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:22:00 treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp 14:22:49 kennyd [~kennyd@93-139-30-229.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 14:23:20 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 14:23:59 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:27:29 Flatlander: M-. on the symbol in question and follow the source 14:29:12 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:29:16 I know, I just didn't have it installed on this box 14:30:46 -!- sezo [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Quit: #yhiselamu | www.yhiselamu.ee (EOF)] 14:31:14 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:31:59 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:32:46 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@mobile-166-147-098-027.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:59 -!- specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-68-30.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:33:38 -!- minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-68-30.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:34:06 -!- lando [~lando@c-98-254-147-186.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #lisp 14:34:31 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:35:13 Would it make sense to have some kind of an common protocol for handling pixeldata? Currently one needs to often convert between different formats when using image related libraries 14:35:38 Flatlander: it would make sense 14:35:47 It would indeed 14:35:55 would it be possible to make something like fast enough? 14:36:02 Doesn't OpenSL have that kind of stuff? 14:36:14 No wait. That's the sound stuff 14:36:34 Forget what I said 14:36:35 specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-27-35.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 14:36:50 I'll add my "indeed", too, Flatlander. 14:37:11 Flatlander: maybe 14:37:44 for example, sometimes one might want to handle RRGGBB or indexed bitmaps, and sometimes foreign ARGB data and so on 14:38:13 One thing that comes to mind is num-utils, I think? There is some linear algebra package that uses pinned arrays for performance. 14:38:43 no; it uses pinned arrays to pass them to BLAS and LAPACK. 14:39:12 -!- joachifm [~user@ti0150a340-0614.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:39:13 But, still uses them from Lisp, too, no? 14:42:45 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:43:37 -!- rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-207-152.uio.no] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 14:44:15 it seems easy if I ignore all the performance aspects, just have a generic color type that could be specified in different formats and a few low level generic methods for reading/writing pixels 14:45:00 Flatlander: i just use static vectors and displaced arrays .. best of all worlds 14:45:17 static-vectors is really, really useful 14:46:37 Cyrus Harmon had some pixel SETF macros a while back. 14:46:53 also cl-colors already defines colors 14:47:01 -!- kvsari [~kvsari@119-173-226-23.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:47:43 slyrus is cyrus 14:47:45 It seems to me, you want a way to obtain and efficiently use pixel getters and setters that are specific to the layout of the underlying array. 14:48:54 patrickwonders, exactly 14:48:57 Xach, suspected so... Hadn't heard him here today.... 14:49:04 bah, CL:COMPILE. 14:50:13 cl-colors as such wouldn't work since it defines colors as instances of RGB objects, with the elements being doubles 14:50:28 cl-colors is very highlevel 14:51:02 if you want to do image manipulation ie filters and such, you need to start from low-level, or use existing lib like commonqt 14:51:26 maxm--, right. 14:51:35 basically first you need to decide on formats you want to support, ie 24-bit, 32-bit with alpha channel, or such 14:51:52 then store it on sbcl in array of unsigned-byte 8 14:52:50 write macros for addressing pixels, ie (with-image-data (image) ) that would define macrolets for (pixel x y) 14:53:09 I wouldn't actually want to fix the underlying image format as it ideally should work with foreign data too 14:53:27 Paul, not sure what you meant with CL:COMPILE... I was thinking getter/setter as closures around the array. Did you have something more static in mind? Or something else? Or non sequitur? 14:53:52 if you wrap your macrolets with (locally (declare (speed 3) (safety 0)) ... get the pixel here ...) and do your own bounds checking, you may approach speed simular to C code 14:53:58 patrickwonders: better to use irc nicks 14:54:02 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 14:54:05 the color representation would probably need to be fixed though. I'd be fine with a 32 bit RGBA or some variant 14:55:18 Radium [~carbon@117.203.17.99] has joined #lisp 14:55:27 or you can use commonqt, it already has stuff like above, and access its bitmaps with cffi:mem-arefs for bulk operations 14:55:36 so in the lowest level the image data would be accessed with (setf) pixel-at function or something similar 14:56:20 heh 14:56:34 patrickwonders: one non-local function call per pixel access is pretty awful. 14:56:51 thats why I'm pointing him towards (with-image) thing 14:56:57 any other way would be too slow 14:57:02 pkhuong, maxm--, right, both 14:57:37 Nicholas Neuss has a couple article describing the approach he took in FEMLisp. 14:57:41 it would need to be something conceptually similar to generic functions 14:58:13 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 12.0/20120403211507]] 14:59:07 that is, it should be easy to add new image format by defining new accessor functions for the format 14:59:55 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-144-27.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:35 (Feh, pardon all. I am an IRC newb for the fourth or fifth time in 22yrs. Entirely messing up etiquette and misreading my client's color cues.) 15:00:43 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:00:44 and of course it should be possible to implement other format specifi operations, for performance 15:02:46 jervis [~jervis@dyn-160-39-196-117.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 15:02:52 -!- sn0rri [~sn0rri@213.249.49.158] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:02:54 Flatlander: to have both performance and generality, I would personally go with accessors being a macro that expands into as efficient code as possible 15:03:11 but you can use generic functions specializing on the format, as helpers for the macro 15:04:10 would a generic get-accessor method that returns a function to manipulate the data be faster than a regular method call 15:04:41 One non-local funcall per pixel is pretty awful. What other alternatives ate there? Explicitly make code that know the pixel format, make algorithms as macros that you can later expand in a context where you've macrolet-ed specific src getters and dst setters? What other alternatives? 15:05:33 ie (defmethod image-array-type ((format rgb24)) `(array fixnum)) etc.. then you can have rgb24-sbcl that uses unsigned-byte-8 etc 15:05:36 Ah, right, . 15:05:39 some kind of JITing perhaps? 15:05:50 jlongster [~user@pool-96-253-85-90.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:02 patrickwonders: specialise code on a cross-product of input format, output format, etc., realize the awful combinatorial explosion it represents, delay the specialisation to runtime via COMPILE. 15:07:06 kushal [~kdas@114.143.160.2] has joined #lisp 15:07:06 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.160.2] has quit [Changing host] 15:07:06 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 15:07:21 a with-image macro that somehow dynamically specializes all pixel accessor? Is that somehow possible? 15:08:47 without the context changes getting too expensive, that is 15:08:50 Try to find useful bulk operators because that'll be easier to specialise, but provide more generic (but still format-specialised) higher-order functions. The problem with trying to runtime-compile arbitrary code is that we can't compile inside (non-trivial) lexical environments. 15:09:24 sn0rri [~sn0rri@213.249.49.158] has joined #lisp 15:09:40 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:09:44 X-Scale [name@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has joined #lisp 15:10:41 pkhuong: I'm just trying to grok where one would get the code to pass to COMPILE. Algorithms written as macros? 15:10:43 Actually, I lie and there are non-portable tricks to mostly recover the lexical environment, but it's Bad. 15:10:46 but something like vecto, for example, would require fast pixel level operations 15:10:51 *maxm--* does not envision new image formats being defined too often.. Also lets use better name.. image format is easily confused as in .gif .png.. What we are talking about, the in-memory representation of the image, is more properly called pixmap or bitmap or whatever its called in opengl 15:11:10 bitmap format 15:11:15 patrickwonders: well, there's no need to use macros when you can just call functions that generate sexpressions. 15:11:16 Or just as quoted forms... 15:11:32 well, pixmap is actually better 15:13:12 pkhuong: Sure. I'm just imagining even trying to write a simple image scaling routine as something that's just assembling code on the fly. Seems like it'd be tough to reason about unless it were just a single quoted form. 15:13:40 generally it seems you are trying to come up with a system, where user A wrote a some blah-blah-filter that does something to the image, and then you define a new pixmap format my-super-duper-32-bit-per-color-with-infrared-channel, and run his filter on a pixmap of your new format, without recompilation 15:13:48 patrickwonders: I'm not privy to all your designs, but the kind of stuff you just mentionned (scaling) is best represented as affine Matrix transforms. 15:13:58 pkhuong: I could see it for some algorithms. And, I imagine an unrolled FFT function would be awesome. 15:14:07 iow: it's not code, it's 15:14:09 data 15:14:10 maxm--, I guess the real problem is that I'd like to have something that could transparently use foreign formats. 15:14:46 patrickwonders: and the other things you mention remind me of convolution filters. Again, data. 15:15:05 Skip45 [~joe@60-240-121-72.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 15:15:25 there are api's for these things that take your data and do the work for you. I would assume that making code for every time the operation needed doing is not the best of ideas. 15:15:50 Flatlander, well in that case, my advice about using (with-image) macro, was designed alongside the idea that you will only have a few formats, and adding new ones, involves recompiling whole thing anyway 15:15:58 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:16:27 Flatlander: if you want to be that dynamic, you have 2 choices, use functions and be slow, or dynamically generate and use cl:compile as pkhuong suggests 15:16:27 patrickwonders: unrolling FFTs quickly stops paying off. 15:16:30 mklappstuhl [~martin@e179015090.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:16:54 isn't there a cl-gpu? 15:17:13 Any CLISP users know a quick and easy to suppress "WARNING: locale: no encoding 646, using ISO-8859-1" when invoking "clisp" at command line? 15:18:16 pkhuong: Really? That surprises me. Because of added instruction cache hits? Or because the compiler could have unrolled it itself? 15:18:20 patrickwonders: I don't runtime-generated code must necessarily be hard to reason about. Granted, I try to stick to patterns where the code could be generated ahead of time, except that the number of possibilities makes it silly. 15:18:28 (my point for the above not being that you should use said apis, but rather start seeing the various operations as data) 15:19:28 Skip45: what output do you get from "locale" at the command line? (you can paste to paste.lisp.org) 15:20:10 patrickwonders: because FFTs are IO-bound anyway. Napa-FFT only generates straightline code for transforms of size 32 or less. 15:20:37 -!- PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has quit [Quit: PuercoPop] 15:20:39 pkhuong: Gotcha. Thanks. 15:20:41 hmm, let's see... a library developer would define the pixmap manipulation algorithms, the user decides which format to and the format statically compiles the algorithms to usable functions. In addition there would be a few generic methods for quick (well, slow) and dirty tasks 15:20:49 *use 15:20:52 I got a slight boost by moving to 64, but it didn't worth the much longer compile times and huge I$-blowing routines. 15:21:06 rme [~rme@50.43.137.11] has joined #lisp 15:22:20 Flatlander: I'd try and take a look at what cairo does. This conversation really reminds me of one I had with a cairo dev a couple years back. I believe they have something planned with LLVM, but mostly they assemble generic pieces together, and compile common combos ahead of time. With COMPILE, we can compile any combination as needed. 15:25:24 pkhuong, ok 15:26:00 Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.226] has joined #lisp 15:28:54 PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 15:29:10 paul0 [~user@201.86.65.163.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 15:29:31 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.226] has left #lisp 15:30:19 @Xach have pasted "locale" 15:30:52 kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:31:05 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:31:40 Skip45: can you annotate with the output of the output "locale -a"? 15:32:56 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-155-192-6.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:56 @Xach "locale -a" pasted 15:35:52 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.42.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:36:35 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-201.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:36:51 Skip45: I think you may have no warning if you set LANG=en_US.UTF-8 before starting. 15:37:58 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@mobile-166-147-098-027.mycingular.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 15:38:04 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:38:55 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:39:26 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acornsoft_LISP 15:39:57 shizzy0 [~user@c-24-91-161-73.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:14 was hoping I could just create a DCPU-16 backend for sbcl.. just mainly seemed like a fun way to dive into lisp implementation internals. 15:40:38 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 15:40:59 but a small lisp seems feasible 15:41:02 j_king: why not just write a custom lisp compiler targeting DCPU-16 using sbcl? 15:41:03 @Xach Yay!!! It works. Thanks Heaps :) 15:41:35 -!- mathrick__ [~mathrick@94.144.63.10] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:41:45 mathrick [~mathrick@94.144.63.10] has joined #lisp 15:41:49 vatine's hexapodia website has disappeared 15:41:55 there goes genhash... 15:42:21 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp 15:42:35 -!- shizzy0 [~user@c-24-91-161-73.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has left #lisp 15:43:16 dlowe: definitely seems like the most feasible first step. 15:44:21 would be neat to bootstrap a lisp in dcpu-16, program ships in lisp within 0x10c natively. 15:44:56 and get to learn a thing or two about lisp compiler internals along the way 15:45:06 do it! 15:45:10 j_king: you could do a Smalltalk maybe? 15:45:11 Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:16 hacks and glory await 15:45:19 -!- Skip45 [~joe@60-240-121-72.static.tpgi.com.au] has left #lisp 15:45:22 optikalmouse: apostate! 15:45:23 yeah, the 16 bit constraint should really be educational 15:45:26 get squeak to generate DCPU-16 vm code and you get a nice IDE ;) 15:46:07 dlowe: get the torches & pitchforks ready, forth might be the best option for dcpu-16 ;) 15:46:40 optikalmouse: I thought that myself. 15:46:46 DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #lisp 15:47:34 It's possible to have a lisp that doesn't have evaluation and compilation built in, though 15:48:03 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:48:38 a lot depends on how much memory is given to a cpu. If they give you the full 16 bits, 65k should be enough for an evaluator. Probably not the best use of resources, though 15:48:45 might be better just to target the bytecode instead :/ 15:49:45 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has quit [Quit: Offline] 15:49:51 Xach: well, at least, your limitless foresight lead you to keep your own copies! 15:50:02 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:50:49 -!- guymann [~charles@64-252-120-203.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:52:16 *Xach* has so many copies 15:53:52 -!- sn0rri [~sn0rri@213.249.49.158] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 15:57:41 teggi [~teggi@113.172.42.8] has joined #lisp 15:58:21 guymann [~charles@66-159-173-1.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:53 [SLB] [~slabua@host85-170-dynamic.2-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:58:54 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host85-170-dynamic.2-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 15:58:54 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 15:59:20 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.9] has joined #lisp 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[~tomppa@b27.kiulu.jyu.fi] has joined #lisp 17:12:30 Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 17:12:32 -!- SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:12:36 -!- Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 17:13:42 -!- bjonnh [~bjonnh@147.210.71.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:14:11 gkeith_lt [georgekeit@nat/google/x-xeyffivxxdsptovc] has joined #lisp 17:15:30 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:16:24 galdor: what changed with zmq stuff? 17:16:27 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:16:30 it builds suddenly 17:16:34 skulls [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/skulls] has joined #lisp 17:16:44 ahh, cffi 17:17:15 it has broken stassats' inotify 17:17:36 *Xach* prods stassats 17:17:40 eh? 17:17:47 stassats: cffi updates have broken inotify 17:17:57 *Xach* pastes error 17:18:05 somebody uses my inotify? 17:18:09 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.235] has joined #lisp 17:18:14 mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has joined #lisp 17:18:36 (which is cool, i guess) 17:19:07 http://paste.lisp.org/display/128895 17:20:58 Xach: I believe that is an iolib problem. 17:21:35 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:21:36 There is another branch of iolib that works with the current CFFI. 17:21:55 ok 17:22:03 hm, compiles fine for me 17:22:29 although i do it on CCL 17:23:56 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:24:11 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:25:33 but it warns about referring to structs as (:struct name) 17:25:57 do older cffi support such a thing? 17:26:10 won't the change break it? 17:26:18 stassats: that warning is new 17:26:20 cpinera [~cpinera@134.134.139.72] has joined #lisp 17:26:27 -!- skulls [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/skulls] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:26:50 LiamH: the warning, yes, but will older versions accept (:struct name)? 17:26:59 stassats: no 17:27:22 you can still use the bare struct name, you just get a style warning 17:27:37 Xach: builds on SBCL fine too 17:27:41 git iolib and CFFI 17:27:53 I'm not using git, I'm using releases. 17:28:17 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 17:28:31 Xach: right, fe[nl]ix needs to make a new release of iolib to match the 0.10.7 release of CFFI, I think. 17:29:08 bjonnh [~bjonnh@147.210.71.83] has joined #lisp 17:29:27 -!- cpinera [~cpinera@134.134.139.72] has left #lisp 17:29:36 cpinera [~cpinera@134.134.139.72] has joined #lisp 17:30:01 Surprised that inotify is the only casualty of the mismatch 17:30:30 Yes, that struck me as odd too. 17:30:33 and i was wrong in saying that quicklisp have no my projects 17:30:53 i guess i'm the only one who preferred to use "foo_bar" instead of foo-bar 17:31:01 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:31:17 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 17:32:23 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@dsl-stat-43-17.mmc.at] has quit [Quit: Fullmoon] 17:32:40 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:57 Xach: changed to symbols, try now 17:33:34 -!- gkeith_lt [georgekeit@nat/google/x-xeyffivxxdsptovc] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:34:02 fe[nl]ix: around? 17:34:06 gkeith_lt [georgekeit@nat/google/x-eosrjkmhkhuedkrn] has joined #lisp 17:34:33 there's also cl-inotify 17:34:38 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@94.144.63.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:34:39 but my name is more cool 17:35:47 http://paste.lisp.org/display/128895#1 17:36:05 Radium [~carbon@117.203.17.99] has joined #lisp 17:36:26 green` [~user@CPE0021910f07ac-CM0019477f82fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:36:47 -!- gkeith_lt [georgekeit@nat/google/x-eosrjkmhkhuedkrn] has quit [Client Quit] 17:37:07 gkeith_lt [georgekeit@nat/google/x-awvksfxqttpcurnh] has joined #lisp 17:37:28 stassats: if iolib had worked on my system i'd not have bothered with cl-inotify -.-' (and no, i didn't yet check whether it works now) 17:37:46 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:37:58 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:06 -!- cpinera [~cpinera@134.134.139.72] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:38:27 -!- green` is now known as antgreen 17:38:52 Kron [~Kron@206.126.93.212] has joined #lisp 17:39:02 but maybe fsnotify or what its called gets enough underlying wrappers so that any of these packages can be used with it, or thats what i hope 17:39:41 Xach: what the hell does it want? 17:40:05 machine2 [~machine4@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:19 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@206.126.93.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:40:55 stassats: Heck if I know. 17:41:05 there's no 0.7.3 tag in git 17:41:10 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:41:57 well, bug fe[nl]ix about making a new release then 17:42:45 i'll try one last thing 17:43:10 FACEFOX [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:59 well, (name) doesn't work anymore 17:44:36 (name "name") appears to work 17:45:32 Xach: try again 17:46:38 kornshell` [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/skulls] has joined #lisp 17:47:49 -!- Kaisyu [~Kaisyu@183.109.110.144] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:47:52 -!- phrixos [~foo@unaffiliated/phrixos] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:48:11 phrixos [~foo@unaffiliated/phrixos] has joined #lisp 17:48:30 stassats: works 17:49:01 FreeArtMan [~fam@213.175.106.134] has joined #lisp 17:50:38 fine 17:51:15 -!- gkeith_lt [georgekeit@nat/google/x-awvksfxqttpcurnh] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:51:59 ainm_ [~ainm@203.Red-83-36-190.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:38 -!- ainm [~ainm@203.Red-83-36-190.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 17:52:40 -!- ainm_ is now known as ainm 17:53:17 gkeith_lt [georgekeit@nat/google/x-ikhuqyrlhhwxmxgr] has joined #lisp 17:54:20 SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:07 PuercoPop_ [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 17:55:16 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.9] has quit [Quit: Offline] 17:55:47 -!- PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:55:48 -!- PuercoPop_ is now known as PuercoPop 17:56:01 NeedMoreDesu [~user@109.122.22.201] has joined #lisp 17:57:21 What are the best database/networking(to, say, make a simple chat) libraries today? 17:57:44 database slash networking? 17:57:56 yeah slash networking 17:58:09 -!- kornshell` [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/skulls] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:58:33 Nope, I mean one lib for each. 17:59:33 postmodern is pretty good for talking to postgres. i would choose postgres just to be able to use postmodern. 17:59:46 +1 on that 17:59:49 what kind of networking do you need? 18:00:39 Just as I said. To write a simple server-client chat. 18:00:45 -!- stlifey_ [~stlifey@116.26.29.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:01:03 minion: usocket? 18:01:04 usocket: USOCKET is a networking portability layer for BSD-style sockets. http://www.cliki.net/usocket 18:01:41 cabaire [~nobody@p549402F4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:02:03 stassats: thanks. 18:02:39 Guthur [~user@host86-148-167-55.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:05:02 -!- gkeith_lt [georgekeit@nat/google/x-ikhuqyrlhhwxmxgr] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:07:03 gkeith_lt [georgekeit@nat/google/x-wjrtqbhfdrjmlboi] has joined #lisp 18:08:30 -!- treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:09:43 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:17:53 -!- gkeith_lt [georgekeit@nat/google/x-wjrtqbhfdrjmlboi] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:19:52 gkeith_lt [georgekeit@nat/google/x-hbzugrgfenibyopo] has joined #lisp 18:25:33 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81A7ED.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:26:27 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has joined #lisp 18:27:31 pnq [~nick@AC81A7ED.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 18:31:00 -!- gkeith_lt [georgekeit@nat/google/x-hbzugrgfenibyopo] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:32:39 -!- BigHugeDog [~QQ@221.0.11.215] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:33:14 gkeith_lt [georgekeit@nat/google/x-vsfhskklipjohnkr] has joined #lisp 18:35:01 Kron_ [~Kron@206.126.93.212] has joined #lisp 18:36:59 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81A7ED.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:37:26 -!- Kron [~Kron@206.126.93.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:38:20 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-hbwkrwanctglflti] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:40:27 puchacz_ [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:41:04 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.42.8] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:41:59 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:44:32 -!- gkeith_lt [georgekeit@nat/google/x-vsfhskklipjohnkr] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:44:52 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:02 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@50.Red-88-11-24.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:43 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-123-241.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:03 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:47:28 gkeith_lt [georgekeit@nat/google/x-tgbfbzjidbepbyik] has joined #lisp 18:47:49 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 18:48:05 Greetings lispers 18:48:39 pnq [~nick@AC81A7ED.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 18:48:44 wow did cffi/libffi get merged with master? 18:48:56 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:49:10 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:49:57 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-144-27.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:50:22 jervis [~jervis@dyn-160-39-197-236.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 18:52:28 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-123-241.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:53:10 Ralith [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:08 coldpizza72i [~anthonybe@coldpizza721.student.rit.edu] has joined #lisp 18:54:10 help! has anyone run into this problem with asdf:load-op? #<***error while formatting: string "~%~:[~;Error: ~]~a~%", arg types (symbol asdf:missing-component), error 'Fancy directives in delivery require keeping PPRINT by :KEEP-PRETTY-PRINTER : "~@ ~@[ or does not match version ~A~]~ 18:54:10 ~@[ in ~A~]~@:>" '> 18:54:17 jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:35 didn't you already ask this? 18:54:37 does this mean, i dont have all of the needed paths i need for the system 18:54:43 oGMo: yes 18:54:53 -!- jervis [~jervis@dyn-160-39-197-236.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:55:02 wbooze_ [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-195-211.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:55:07 yes 18:55:21 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-195-211.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:56:12 will you ask it everyday until somebody answers? 18:56:21 sacho [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 18:56:21 _really_ great news 18:57:06 oGMo: Glad you like it. 18:57:16 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-193-51.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:57:19 i want to look something up but I'm not sure what its called i think it when you have something like ~%  any ideas? 18:57:28 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-193-51.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:57:42 coldpizza72i: format? 18:57:58 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81A7ED.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:58:53 stlifey [~stlifey@116.26.29.67] has joined #lisp 18:59:36 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:00:30 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@dsl-stat-43-17.mmc.at] has joined #lisp 19:00:56 So I'm pretty sure what I'm thinking of is similar to a feature in C# which i have never used but i think you can do something along the lines of printf($X is $Y years old,name,age) and it will like replace X any Y with the name and age values 19:01:04 pnq [~nick@AC81A7ED.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 19:01:12 flipout: I told you, you are using a lisp image with some features removed, probably from delivery 19:01:21 coldpizza72i: yes, it is FORMAT 19:01:50 sure..an entropy thing 19:02:03 in addition, you are missing file or other, but the message that is trying to tell you what it is can't be printed by your not-lisp 19:02:11 coldpizza72i: which would look like (format t "~a is ~a years old" name age) 19:02:15 please don't ask the same question again 19:03:04 cool thanks 19:04:06 jervis [~jervis@dyn-160-39-197-236.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 19:05:20 So are dynamic scopes pretty much global variables 19:05:44 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@94.144.63.14] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:06:54 -!- gkeith_lt [georgekeit@nat/google/x-tgbfbzjidbepbyik] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:08:13 is there a convenient way to convert a 2d array to a vector? 19:09:42 there's probably a cunning way involving a displaced array and a call to copy-seq or something 19:09:52 otherwise, you might want something like sb-ext:array-storage-vector 19:10:28 tobel [~user@pD9E8B498.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:37 gkeith_lt [georgekeit@nat/google/x-dyjnhyooljxznqdr] has joined #lisp 19:10:54 NeedMoreDesu: if you don't want sql, there's chillax (not that sql is necessarily a bad idea) 19:11:20 snearch [~snearch@f053007130.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:11:42 Kryztof: thanks for the pointer 19:11:46 Would someone be so kind enough to explain to me what dynamic scoping is 19:14:26 coldpizza72i: it is special. 19:15:00 (defun f () (declare (special var)) var) (defun g () (let ((var 42)) (declare (special var)) (f))) (g) --> 42 19:15:13 coldpizza72i: Have a look here, maybe this will help explain: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/variables.html#dynamic-aka-special-variables 19:15:16 Notice how the variable bound in g is accessible from f. 19:16:11 If you define a similar function named h, and call h, f will return the value of the variable bound in h. Hence, f determines dynamically which variable to use, either that of f or that of h, depending on WHEN it is called. 19:16:29 pjb: I need declare in both places, like in your example? 19:16:31 On the contrary, with lexical binding, the variable to access is determined statically, depending on WHERE it is. 19:16:57 NeedMoreDesu: You may declaim a symbol special in which case it's globally special. That's what defvar and defparameter do. 19:17:14 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81A7ED.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:17:44 DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-14-2.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:45 is (var) --- > 42? 19:17:56 No, there's no function named var. 19:18:00 var --> 42. 19:18:04 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:18:06 Well, depends WHEN. 19:18:16 after the g call 19:18:31 No, after the call to g, the variable is destroyed. 19:18:43 -!- paul0 [~user@201.86.65.163.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:18:43 apropos sql, is there already a package for accessing e.g. clos information with a ql? or even historically / in other systems? 19:18:44 (defun h () (let ((var 33)) (declare (special var)) (f))) (h) --> 33 19:18:57 i.e. http://paste.lisp.org/display/128897 19:19:05 coldpizza72i: try to (trace f) and call (h) and (g). 19:19:31 -!- gkeith_lt [georgekeit@nat/google/x-dyjnhyooljxznqdr] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:20:06 Ralith_ [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:14 pjb: I mean, (defun f() var) works too. Do I really need "declare special" there? 19:20:34 -!- ghuntley [~ghuntley@CPE-60-225-85-11.hhui2.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:20:38 -!- Ralith [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:20:40 NeedMoreDesu: please add a space after the f 19:20:46 -!- Ralith_ is now known as Ralith 19:20:54 NeedMoreDesu: does it work? 19:21:03 NeedMoreDesu: no, it doesn't work. It may do something on some implementation, and something else in others. 19:21:24 Ah, ok. 19:21:30 NeedMoreDesu: I'd expect to get a program-error for using a free-variable, or possibly the variable being declaimed globally special, which is bad. 19:21:39 -!- jervis [~jervis@dyn-160-39-197-236.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:21:40 oh, you mean declare special inside F, yes, you can skip declaring it 19:21:44 but the compiler will shout at you 19:22:19 i don't like to be shouted at 19:22:23 gkeith_lt [georgekeit@nat/google/x-zuixkptdqcudntdo] has joined #lisp 19:23:24 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@213.175.106.134] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:23:25 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:24:55 -!- Flatlander [~tomppa@b27.kiulu.jyu.fi] has left #lisp 19:26:18 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 19:27:20 flipout` [~user@75-175-126-207.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:30 -!- gkeith_lt [georgekeit@nat/google/x-zuixkptdqcudntdo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:27:39 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:27:45 jervis [~jervis@dyn-160-39-197-236.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 19:27:46 gkeith_lt [georgekeit@nat/google/x-zpjrqyxvfqsafdkd] has joined #lisp 19:28:11 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:30:07 -!- flipout [~user@75-175-124-139.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:31:11 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@mobile-166-147-098-027.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:13 -!- jervis [~jervis@dyn-160-39-197-236.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:35:21 jervis [~jervis@dyn-160-39-197-236.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 19:36:19 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:38:21 diginet [~diginet@adsl-69-153-135-2.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:01 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.43.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:40:25 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@50.Red-88-11-24.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 19:40:48 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 19:41:02 metaphract [~Travis@02da15a3.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 19:41:23 -!- metaphract [~Travis@02da15a3.bb.sky.com] has left #lisp 19:41:39 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 19:43:10 codd_ [~admin@148.Red-79-148-241.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:59 coldpizza72i: notice that in the case of globally declaimed special symbols, any binding will be dynamic: (declaim (special var)) then: (let ((var 42) (f))) is undistinguishable from a lexical binding! 19:45:35 coldpizza72i: that's why you're advised to name those symbols with stars: (declaim (special *var*)) (let ((*var* 42)) (f)) and similarly for the variable defined with defvar and defparameter. 19:46:54 -!- codd_ [~admin@148.Red-79-148-241.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:47:06 -!- bjonnh [~bjonnh@147.210.71.83] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:48:02 ZabaQ [~Zaba@ip-89-176-173-114.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 19:53:14 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.226] has left #lisp 19:55:22 -!- tobel [~user@pD9E8B498.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:55:53 ghuntley [~ghuntley@CPE-60-225-85-11.hhui2.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 19:57:05 ohhh 19:57:08 -!- jollyG [~JollyG@KennPAT.uncc.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:57:11 Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.226] has joined #lisp 20:03:58 -!- jervis [~jervis@dyn-160-39-197-236.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:05:33 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@mobile-166-147-098-027.mycingular.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 20:07:17 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-188.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:08:20 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@ip-89-176-173-114.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:09:37 -!- ASau` [~user@128-72-117-212.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:10:04 -!- PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:10:38 ASau` [~user@128-72-117-212.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 20:12:09 paul0 [~user@200.175.62.253.dynamic.dialup.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 20:12:23 phrixos_ [~foo@unaffiliated/phrixos] has joined #lisp 20:13:04 -!- phrixos [~foo@unaffiliated/phrixos] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:13:04 -!- phrixos_ is now known as phrixos 20:15:08 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:15:25 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 20:18:01 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:20:17 jervis [~jervis@dyn-160-39-197-236.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 20:21:11 [SLB] [~slabua@host85-170-dynamic.2-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:21:11 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host85-170-dynamic.2-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 20:21:11 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 20:21:47 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:23:30 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:23:44 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:24:10 Froward [~uh-oh@206.231.99.110] has joined #lisp 20:26:17 PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 20:27:52 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-155-192-6.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:29 -!- SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:28:56 Can someone here (preferably someone who doesn't use Gmail or Google Apps for their mail) send me a test email at peter@gigamonkeys.com? 20:30:18 gigamonkey: done 20:30:40 thonks 20:31:30 -!- flipout` [~user@75-175-126-207.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:32:23 And I got it. Must just be my friends are flakey; not my email. :-( 20:32:34 You should have two more now. 20:34:27 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 20:35:09 Yup. Thanks. 20:37:09 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.104.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:37:37 is there any other disadvantages to lexical scoping other then it encourages more global variables then neckessary and it is less flexible 20:37:55 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.104.38] has joined #lisp 20:39:36 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:43:08 tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.148.194.217] has joined #lisp 20:45:03 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 20:45:27 coldpizza72i: What do you mean by "encourages more global variables then neckessary"? 20:46:00 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181241043.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:46:29 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.56.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:47:35 For example, it a subprogram due to some modification now needs to see a variable local to another subprogram on the same level then a lengthy change may be need. First, the variable may be move globally or at least one nested level up. Then the original programs integrity needs to reassessed and the modification will also need test. And, finally, that variable will have to examined to determine whether it is cross-talking to other 20:47:35 subprograms; perhaps causing unforeseen side-effects. 20:47:35 -!- Ralith [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:48:05 Ralith [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:49 coldpizza72i: That makes no sense. Don't worry about trying to explain it. 20:49:02 ok 20:49:20 do you know any other disadvantages other then it is less flexible , ThomasH 20:50:04 coldpizza72i: you can't eval, if you liek eval. 20:50:46 coldpizza72i: I don't understand any of your comments with respect to lexical scoping. 20:51:48 <|3b|> lexical and dynamic scoping are both useful in different situations, using the wrong one will make your code more complicated or error prone, and maybe slower 20:52:32 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-225-63.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:38 ill be back soon 20:52:39 -!- coldpizza72i [~anthonybe@coldpizza721.student.rit.edu] has quit [Quit: coldpizza72i] 20:54:43 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:55:00 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 20:56:14 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-115-155.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:28 sacho_ [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 20:56:41 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@dsl-stat-43-17.mmc.at] has quit [Quit: Fullmoon] 20:57:43 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-225-63.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:59:36 literal_ [hinrik@w.nix.is] has joined #lisp 20:59:41 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:59:41 -!- literal [hinrik@w.nix.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:00:30 sacho [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 21:02:35 -!- sacho_ [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:06:27 -!- cabaire [~nobody@p549402F4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:07:37 Kvaks2 [~kvaks@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:07:38 -!- Kvaks2 [~kvaks@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Client Quit] 21:11:10 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:12:54 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053007130.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:13:28 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:13:32 coldpizza72i [~anthonybe@129.21.147.196] has joined #lisp 21:14:54 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-115-155.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:15:50 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:16:53 -!- machine2 [~machine4@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:19:07 flipout [~user@75-175-126-207.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:29 visar [~visar@77.29.55.242] has joined #lisp 21:19:47 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@116.26.29.67] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:20:26 -!- docAvid [~user@74-94-233-157-Michigan.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:22:44 machine2 [~machine4@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:28 stlifey [~stlifey@116.26.29.67] has joined #lisp 21:25:47 clintm [~cmoore@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:37 BrianRice` [~water@75-172-21-21.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:37 -!- BrianRice [~water@75-172-21-21.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:26:38 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 21:26:38 -!- BrianRice is now known as 92AAAM73V 21:26:52 brontosaurus [~weldon@66-44-121-240.c3-0.grg-ubr1.lnh-grg.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 21:31:20 BrianRice [~water@75-172-21-21.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:20 -!- 92AAAM73V [~water@75-172-21-21.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:34:05 -!- visar [~visar@77.29.55.242] has left #lisp 21:38:16 -!- kanru``` [~user@61-228-148-40.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:40:44 scombinator [~user@203.171.40.170] has joined #lisp 21:44:25 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:46:16 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.107.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:47:20 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 21:47:44 -!- brontosaurus [~weldon@66-44-121-240.c3-0.grg-ubr1.lnh-grg.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:50:28 *maxm--* finished his taxes... 21:51:01 not offtopic coz importing trade stuff into gnucash becoming painfully slow, so I'm thinking of maybe cloning gnucash in lisp.. Already have todo item to check out cl-ledger 21:51:32 -!- cvandusen [~user@68-90-30-246.ded.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 21:52:12 besapient [~ankur@CPE-60-230-100-125.vic.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 21:52:38 -!- coldpizza72i [~anthonybe@129.21.147.196] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:52:50 superflit_ [~superflit@71-218-200-19.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:08 -!- superflit [~superflit@75-171-198-88.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:53:08 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 21:53:24 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.104.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:55:51 coldpizza72i [~anthonybe@coldpizza721.student.rit.edu] has joined #lisp 21:56:31 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 21:57:13 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m90-141-49-231.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 21:58:06 -!- coldpizza72i [~anthonybe@coldpizza721.student.rit.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 21:59:07 -!- ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has left #lisp 21:59:48 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181241043.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:05:12 dto [~dto@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:00 -!- puchacz_ [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:06:05 latest audiovisual dto CLporn in 2 formats: http://ompldr.org/vZGNldQ/infltr88.ogv http://ompldr.org/vZGM1NA/infltr88.mp4 22:07:21 daniel__ [~daniel@p50829553.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:12 <|3b|> dto: you should make one of the enemies run up and steal the skull off the icon you leave when you die :p 22:08:22 |3b|: aahaha! 22:09:50 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p5082A14E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:11:50 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:12:41 -!- optikalmouse [~user@76.9.199.178] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:15:02 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:16:30 -!- Harag [~phil@dsl-243-180-239.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:17:36 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-201.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:21:29 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [] 22:24:32 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:24:53 PuercoPop_ [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 22:25:47 -!- PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:25:47 -!- PuercoPop_ is now known as PuercoPop 22:35:34 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:37:16 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-155-192-6.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:40:00 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:40:39 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 22:42:45 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 22:43:44 sb-alien is confusing the crap out of me. How can my VM only be using 60 million bytes after I allocate a million alien structs that have 20 32 bit fields? 22:44:13 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Client Quit] 22:45:24 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA05D4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:47:40 what are you looking at to tell you usage? 22:48:03 (room) / (sb-kernel:dynamic-usage) 22:48:16 can i write an array with element-type 'number to a file output stream, or must i be more specific? (i wonder about both common lisp and sbcl) 22:48:59 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-218-200-19.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:49:46 herbieB: not sure if those count alien allocations 22:50:09 element-type 'number is the same as :element-type t, so, as long as your elements fit the streams element type, it'll be ok 22:50:57 -!- besapient [~ankur@CPE-60-230-100-125.vic.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:50:59 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:51:16 -!- dto [~dto@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:51:32 oGMo: Interesting 22:51:53 That would certainly explain it 22:51:55 stassats: for file output, what type should i pick? would it be better if i'd limit it to both fixnums and floats? 22:52:38 the same as element-type of the stream, ideally 22:52:51 you can't really write floats to streams 22:53:02 DataLinkDroid [~David@101.171.143.221] has joined #lisp 22:53:08 either bytes or characters 22:53:31 Yeah, I can definitely blow the heap allocating them 22:54:13 stassats: so i should use my own magic bits to recover the data? 22:54:39 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:54:45 stassats: ooh, but i could do the magic bits using grey-streams, can't i? 22:54:52 *madnificent* should read up on those 22:55:00 -!- flipout [~user@75-175-126-207.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:55:10 you can convert floats into integers 22:55:21 minion: ieee-floats? 22:55:22 ieee-floats: IEEE-Floats provides a way of converting values of type float and double-float to and from their binary format representation as defined by IEEE 754 (which is commonly used by processors and network protocols). http://www.cliki.net/ieee-floats 22:55:51 superflit [~superflit@65-128-42-236.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:45 stassats: so i should probably use that, convert it to bytes and set the highest-order byte manually so i can figure out whether it's a float or a fixnum? 22:58:07 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-116-074.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:58:20 what is it that you're trying to do, really? 22:59:02 sacho [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 23:00:03 -!- superflit [~superflit@65-128-42-236.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:00:20 superflit [~superflit@75-171-244-116.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:04 stassats: write both floats and fixnums to a file and get them back out 23:01:29 preferably in a fast way 23:02:14 mmap perhaps? 23:02:42 mmap isn't any faster 23:03:00 fair enough 23:03:07 madnificent: just floats and fixnums and nothing else? 23:03:38 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:03:39 stassats: that's my current target, yes. i doubt it'll change soon. 23:04:25 you can have a format [1 byte for a tag][4 or 8 bytes for data] 23:04:57 stassats: sbcl doesn't use the full 64 bits for either format. i could use that same bit 23:05:11 sbcl uses 64 bits for double floats 23:05:38 doesn't sbcl need a bit to know that it's a float as well? or does it box them differently? 23:06:01 double floats are not immediate 23:06:13 (obviously) 23:07:05 single-floats would still work, right? 23:07:39 on 64-bit sbcl 23:07:48 hmm, this isn't going to be pretty 23:08:05 well, that's a wrong question actually 23:08:10 you don't care about what SBCL does 23:08:32 you just have a fact that a double float does fit exactly into 8 bytes 23:08:39 fits 23:08:55 madnificent: why is that? 23:09:08 stassats: why it's not going to be pretty, the question is? 23:09:13 yes 23:09:32 you're going to have one byte for tags, you can have 256 tags 23:10:00 no, i'll have 8 tags per byte, each tag can be different so i need a bit for each one. 23:10:27 what do you mean? 23:10:45 -!- superflit [~superflit@75-171-244-116.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:10:54 i was thinking i'd be able to steal a bit for the tag from both formats. but with that being a bit of an ass, it's not going to be pretty (in comparison to what i had in mind). 23:10:57 1 byte gives you 256 integers, from 0 to 255 23:11:13 how did 8 got into picture? 23:11:42 stassats: yes, but as each number can be either a fixnum or a float, i need one bit for each. 23:12:01 i don't get you 23:12:25 are you talking about some other scheme, not that i suggested earlier? 23:12:29 if i write 8 numbers, each number can be either a float or a fixnum. if i want to know the type of each, i need 8 bits for that. 23:13:40 ah, i see what you mean by tags. you mean 256 possible values for a single tag. not tagging 256 elements. 23:13:43 you would use bytes, not bits 23:14:07 i probably wouldn't, i only need two types 23:14:23 bits are cool, but they throw off alignment and require more operations to reconstruct things 23:14:56 and when you decide that you actually need three types, you'll rewrite everything 23:15:01 <|3b|> do you have a sequence of values that can be either fixnum or float, or a set of sequences that are all 1 or the other type? 23:15:23 you'd probably be best to read the type of 64 elements and then read all of that in, on a 64bit architecture. the byte isn't going to do that much good either. 23:15:36 |3b|: the former 23:16:33 type of 64 elements? 23:16:51 how's that? where did the number 64 come from? 23:16:53 8 bytes of types 23:17:08 -!- vsync is now known as emeril 23:17:12 -!- emeril is now known as vsync 23:17:13 each bit representing one number 23:17:34 do you want to write the tags first and then data? 23:17:39 not a really good idea 23:17:46 why not? 23:17:49 you write a tag before each data payload 23:18:14 *|3b|* could maybe see writing out all the types at once then all the values 23:18:44 |3b|: now when reading, why do you have to save all the types? 23:18:44 it makes sense to write it for the following 64 elements, as you'd be able to read the types of the following 64 elements efficiently 23:18:54 |3b|: when you could just read them sequentially 23:18:57 *|3b|* probably wouldn't have mixed fixnums and floats in the first place though 23:19:18 <|3b|> stassats: true 23:20:35 what if there are less than 64 elements? 23:20:39 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:21:18 and what happens once you want to write floats, fixnums, and, say, characters? 23:21:39 *|3b|* votes to just write it as text :p 23:21:41 stassats: that's not my problem right now. i'll change the format when/if that happens 23:22:22 with bytes for tags, you won't have that problem and won't need to change anything 23:22:28 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:22:49 but it's an annoying overhead and disk access is certainly going to become an issue. therefore, i don't want it. 23:22:50 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 23:23:05 did you do profiling? 23:23:12 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 23:23:50 stassats: all do respect, but it's obvious given our use. 23:24:06 then why do you ask for advice? 23:24:39 i didn't ask advice for that. i asked advise about being able to read-write the data without the type bits. 23:26:59 though the link to ieee floats is handy nonetheless, as my intended approach probably doesn't work (unless i change/move a bit in the mantisse of the float as well) 23:26:59 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:25 *stassats* is curious what task could require writing small integers and double-floats and nothing else 23:28:01 do you have SSD? 23:28:26 stassats: all other data is contained in a less efficient array as it isn't needed as often in our calculations (and they don't have the same order). 23:30:32 you could have two files, one for tags one for data, you can read the data, say, into an array (as i assume you want to get a hold of it, not just read and discard) and then read tags from the file and apply the needed transformations 23:30:38 stassats: SSDs do make it better 23:30:53 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:31:16 stassats: yeah, that's what |3b| said too. it can be a bit-array making it easy to find the correct one. i'm still contemplating on that. 23:31:32 madnificent: i thought |3b| said about having them in the same file 23:31:47 with two files it would be easier to append new data 23:32:00 yeah, it makes much more sense in two files. must've misread 23:32:09 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-154-133.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:23 -!- mklappstuhl [~martin@e179020055.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 23:32:37 but anyway, do profile 23:32:51 because nothing can be obvious 23:33:07 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:35:17 yeah, but i'm not going to do an initial implementation which will certainly come back to bite me. our current case is shadowed by disk access (which means getting both the access time down and the amount of data we're sending) 23:36:22 but profiling will tell me where to start optimizing further for sure. does sb-prof show me the time spent waiting for disk as well? 23:36:29 have you considered compression? 23:36:30 <|3b|> how is the 'other values' array less efficient? 23:36:40 stassats: yeah, that's coming too 23:37:04 |3b|: actually, those are mostly always strings, so they're written out as strings. we don't need them that often. 23:37:33 <|3b|> so just less used, not less efficient? 23:37:46 have you considered using only floats? 23:38:12 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:38:25 |3b|: storing stuff as strings and then reading them again isn't particularly fast :) 23:38:43 compared to what? 23:39:08 stassats: eql isn't necessarily 'correct' on floats, is it? 23:39:22 clhs eql 23:39:22 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_eql.htm 23:39:23 i'd also miss some bits for representing bigger fixnums 23:39:49 <|3b|> 0.0 and -0.0 might not be eql 23:40:21 |3b|: about the strings: in comparison to storing them in a few bytes, reading them in as characters is slow. 23:40:29 sorry, that was to stassats ^ 23:40:50 how do you read them as characters? 23:40:56 characters are bytes 23:41:58 stassats: ignore it 23:42:41 madnificent: as far as I remember sprof shows time spent in io 23:42:50 ie as part of the function that did io 23:43:57 maxm--: ty 23:44:13 but with modern caching, its hard to catch it.. My use case with cl-store, is usually writing 4 gig blob finishes really fast, but then flusher threads kick in, and box kind of freezes a bit 23:44:27 like vim any-file on same filesystem takes 30 seconds 23:44:56 this is with preempt nohz kernel.. Very much dependent on a filesystem, reiser3 was the worst, ext3 not much better, xfs seems the best 23:45:15 maxm--: i seem to remember that freezing issue only occured on linux. FreeBSD used to cope with disk access better 23:45:24 there was recent tweet about instagram backend setup, and I chuckled when reading they ended up with xfs as well 23:45:43 maxm--: is this on SSD or on a hard-disk? 23:45:59 do you still need to use noatime to make xfs even remotely usable? 23:46:12 adaptec hardware raid, with 4 sata 250g drives 23:46:48 let me see my settings 23:46:59 no just using defaults 23:47:17 word 23:47:31 cool kids use btrfs 23:47:36 maxm--: the only problem of XFS had always been metadata writes 23:47:37 why would you ever need atime? 23:47:45 hefner: not touching it till they have debugfs 23:48:16 -!- phrixos [~foo@unaffiliated/phrixos] has quit [Quit: phrixos] 23:48:55 maxm--: I heard once that before Linux took the place as dominant web host, a lot of hosting companies ended up using Irix of all things, because of XFS (and possibly it being cheaper than some others) 23:49:38 hefner: they also use node.js 23:51:27 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:52:24 madnificent: all the complexities of assembler with the efficiencies of javascript! 23:52:36 :D 23:53:05 -!- Froward [~uh-oh@206.231.99.110] has quit [Quit: even in laughter, the heart of Snorlax is sorrowful. and the end of that mirth is heaviness.] 23:53:42 alvis` [~user@tx-184-6-178-38.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:16 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:55:37 -!- alvis [~user@tx-184-6-178-38.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:55:55 -!- ainm [~ainm@203.Red-83-36-190.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:57:14 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has quit [Quit: Quitting]