00:05:49 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@94.144.63.7] has joined #lisp 00:06:41 argh... why doesn't (ppcre:scan '(:SEQUENCE :start-anchor (:property digit-char-p) #\-) "8-") work? 00:07:37 -!- ski_ [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:08:13 sacho_ [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 00:10:32 A bug, perhaps? 00:11:05 I s'pose so... 00:11:21 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:15:01 You've got the source, trace it. 00:22:33 *|42|* really hates some of the code from land of lisp with three letter variable names.. 00:30:02 when one would be enough? 00:30:05 :) 00:31:04 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-58-165-252-158.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 00:32:29 <|42|> jokes aside.. (let (rest (cdr lst))).. I man why on earth would you do it.. 00:32:53 <|42|> s/man/mean/ 00:33:39 borkman [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:14 too much scheme for too long perhaps 00:34:18 that piece of code may be missing a level of parens 00:35:11 I hope that's not the worst example. 00:35:58 <|42|> tbh i like the book, but code is not as awsome as text 00:36:25 thom_logn [~thom@pool-173-60-243-134.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:17 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-11.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:39:46 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-11.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:43:20 |42|: what's wrong in defining a variable named rest, and another named cdr bound to lst? 00:44:00 -!- ainm [~ainm@187.Red-79-154-73.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ((call/cc call/cc) (call/cc call/cc))] 00:44:47 pjb: it's generally a good idea not to write code indistinguishable from an easily made mistake. 00:45:28 Let's define a LET macro with one less parenthesis level  00:45:45 now that would be really confusing! 00:45:54 -!- sacho_ [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 00:46:19 sacho_ [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 00:46:56 maxm-: next quicklisp has been cut and published 00:47:02 maxm-: new stuff will show up in june 00:47:10 dammit 00:47:11 maxm-: generally first weekend of each month 00:47:14 (shadow '(let rest cdr)) (setf (macro-function 'let) (macro-function 'loop) (symbol-function 'rest) (symbol-function 'print) (symbol-function 'cdr) (symbol-function 'eval)) (define-symbol-macro lst '(read)) (let (rest (cdr lst))) 00:47:51 lol 00:47:52 pnathan1 [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 00:47:58 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:48:30 <|42|> pjb: now I will have nightmares 00:48:46 sty [~quassel@dsl-173-248-200-188.acanac.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:11 Xach: doh, I missed it then 00:50:01 |42|: Remove the quote before (read) to make it work. 00:51:12 *maxm-* is getting close to his ideal logging setup, where I can click on log messages in slime to go to the source function 00:51:29 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-11.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:51:35 just need to get rewrite slime part to stassats pedantic standards 00:52:54 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-11.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:52:59 -!- |42| is now known as |42zZz| 00:53:09 -!- pkbooo [~pkbooo@72.189.247.122] has left #lisp 00:56:58 sacho [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 00:57:18 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-11.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:00:03 -!- sacho_ [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:00:12 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:52 Phooodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:19 ski_ [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 01:01:40 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-11.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:03:25 sacho_ [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 01:03:48 Xach: can you send me a blurb for your BLM talk on 2012-05-17 ? 01:04:19 Fare: yes 01:04:25 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:06:41 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:07:21 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-151-84-76.range86-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:15:40 *Xach* is still thinking of what it will be 01:18:42 start with a joke.. What the difference between lisp programmer and a . One can be use to achieve a useful result, while other one .... 01:21:40 I'm thinking about talking about ideas to build on Quicklisp in ways that don't require any central coordination with me 01:25:08 Like the cl test grid fella 01:25:19 Did you checked how cpan does it? I actually don't know, but the fact that its full of cool stuff, and almost always has latest/greatest version of packages, shows their process is working. 01:25:29 -!- superflit [~superflit@75-171-198-88.hlrn.qwest.net] has left #lisp 01:25:54 *maxm-* would be happy with something that pulls stuff from github or authores repo, rather then use pre-built tarball.. 01:26:11 maxm-: that's how clbuild works (worked) 01:26:54 maxm-: quicklisp works the way it works partly in reaction to the trouble i had using clbuild 01:27:24 coz 2nd most often mention of quicklisp (1st being how awesome it is yada yada) is "oh that is fixed, but you have to pull it from my repo, as its not in quicklisp" 01:28:33 sacho [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 01:29:02 I've got to gather and share the upstream info to make that kind of thing easier 01:32:05 -!- sacho_ [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:32:28 -!- pnathan1 [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:33:12 Xach: git has tags right? 01:33:25 Aethaeryn: yes 01:33:26 Xach: What about adding a special tag syntax to tell quicklisp to use this commit? 01:33:47 So you can automatically get the latest "approved" commit for those who set it up that way. 01:33:55 most of the stuff is almost there.. Basically its already just laziness that prevents one from doing it manually.. All you have to do is google to find the projects repository, then make a clone in ~/local-projects 01:34:14 -!- lebro [~monx@ool-18bc4a28.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:34:19 maxm-: right. that's too much of a hassle for my tastes. i'd like to make it one step. 01:34:20 but would be nice to automate it, via (ql:add-to-source-pull-systems "whatever") 01:34:43 along with providing the metadata for someone who wants to make something similar but different. 01:35:51 (ql:bleeding-edge ..) 01:35:54 I mean ideally, if you're running a git repo, I think the standard terms are "next" and "master" and the "master" branch would be safe for people, and the "next" would have the new things that might break something, and when "next" is stable (i.e. tested) you merge it with master again 01:35:57 prxq_ [~mommer@mnhm-4d0101b7.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:05 At least, that's how I run my git based on some googling. 01:36:50 hmm I seen it done the opposite way, stable and master being in the flux.. It probably should be in properties in the .asd file, per system 01:37:20 with Xach maintaining his current list manually (to provide defaults), but then pestering system authors to include that info, and then have cut-off date and drop ones who did not 01:37:31 maxm-: The only one with a standard name is "master", which is the problem. 01:37:41 I see people doing it maxm-'s way, too 01:37:52 I think you can set the default branch for a repository in git 01:37:54 So you pretty much have it guarunteed that you have the "master", but you're not sure if this is where you do the development or where you put the stable. 01:37:59 (at the repository side) 01:38:00 of course that may run into a system author of a very useful system, who is stubborn and would not update just to screw with us :-) 01:38:19 I make "master" my stable in part because of github defaulting to showing people the "master" branch. 01:38:53 If I made something useful (hah) and put it on github, I'd want them to be able to see a real copy of the program, not one that might be broken. 01:39:00 you can change that, like I said. 01:39:13 github reads the default too? 01:39:21 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c3d56.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:39:30 github lets you change default branch from admin page too 01:39:36 ah 01:39:56 oh, I see 01:40:27 See, this guide has it as "experimental" instead of "next": http://book.git-scm.com/3_basic_branching_and_merging.html 01:40:42 Maybe the problem with git is that it makes branching too easy, so there's no standard branch hierarchy :-P 01:40:44 *Xach* goes with KISS 01:40:45 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 01:41:02 Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-128-240.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:41:03 generally only the "lead" guy should have master, otherwise tracking 2/3 remote repos gets very confusing, as in "merged origin/master" has no meaning. I delete "master" branch from repos I forked, starting a branch under my name instead 01:41:14 Xach: I think the simplest way to do git pulls would be to just ask people who want their program to be read automatically in git to have some sort of special tag. 01:41:26 As in "machine, this is stable to download" 01:41:56 Since there's no guaruntee which branch or commit is stable otherwise, due to a lot less standard conventions than svn 01:42:35 maxm-: Well, yeah, that's how I'd treat my "master" branch. "This is the approved official copy." 01:43:01 You can work on any branch or fork or whatever you want, and hopefully eventually push it upstream, but there needs to be some sort of "official" source. 01:43:15 hmm, interestingly enough I have no Lisp project currently on Github. 01:44:29 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-128-240.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:44:46 Anyway, in a serious project I'd never work in master, I'd just checkout to master periodically. git is supposed to have you work in branches, right? 01:46:24 Linus made git too flexible.. "if there is no god, then everything's allowed", so every project has their own conventions.. Even huge/successful projects like org-mode and emacs struggle with it, so its no easy thing 01:46:49 Interestingly enough, I've heard similar criticisms of Lisp. 01:47:14 That it's too easy to do things in it by yourself so there's 87 projects that 80% implement any given thing. 01:55:00 maxm-: It might just be because git is too new, though. 01:55:17 I honestly tried to find what I thought was a standard way of organizing git branches. 01:56:03 Now I can't even find the page that used "next" on Google. 01:56:17 macros make lisp too flexible 01:56:38 oh wait Aethaeryn already made that point 01:57:12 Functions make lisp too flexible. Mind you, you can even have _anonymous_functions! They must be terrorist functions! 01:57:56 Ralith: I'm a machine gun when it comes to writing. I'll hit every point, and then some, simply by writing too much. :-P 01:58:45 lisp is bad ass rockstar tech. 01:59:13 lisp is the secret sauce in the web 3.0 database. 01:59:19 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-11.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:00:19 There should be an ircd in Lisp... 02:00:44 I think I've seen one somewhere once 02:00:45 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-11.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:01:23 Why use freenode when you can use lispnode? 02:02:35 http://lisp-irc-server.git.sourceforge.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=lisp-irc-server/lisp-irc-server;a=tree no idea if it works 02:02:48 ah, that's why I didn't find it, I was looking for lisp ircd 02:03:03 and only got https://github.com/brandenburgmk/cl-ircd 02:03:31 If it "doesn't actually do anything yet" and is 2 years old, look somewhere else :-P 02:03:47 if it works someone should link it in the irc related cliki page 02:04:02 ewww, the "lisp irc server" is GPLv3 02:04:31 -!- jollyG [~JollyG@cpe-075-176-001-037.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:05:41 I can't really read its source, then, since I could subconsciously copy it if I write my own. 02:06:41 Ah, just as I suspected... it's not very complete. http://lisp-irc-server.git.sourceforge.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=lisp-irc-server/lisp-irc-server;a=blob_plain;f=README;hb=HEAD 02:09:32 What's the point of having anything written in lisp, if not being able to modify it and easily add features? If it was full features, you wouldn't have to add any feature, so it wouldn't have to be writte in lisp! 02:09:51 -!- two- [~textual@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 02:10:00 pjb: Yes, but it's also GPLv3 so anything I modify would have to be GPLv3 02:11:22 IRC is not hard to implement, anyway 02:11:36 grab iolib and make one yourself! 02:11:52 Ralith: I can tell that it's not hard: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IRCd_software_implementations3.svg 02:12:39 hah 02:15:42 If I ever founded a Google-like company instead of self-driving cars and glasses, I might just have to make an entire operating system in Lisp just because. 02:20:52 lebro [~monx@ool-18bc4a28.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:06 ircd actually pushed development of poll and such 02:21:17 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-11.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:21:47 back then the size of one e-penis was measured by being employed in some co-located place, and running one of efnet ircd servers, or being a coder for one 02:23:49 springz [~springz@115.173.145.93] has joined #lisp 02:23:56 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:24:12 handling 60k sockets from a single box is a pretty good test 02:28:05 -!- nialo` [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:28:22 antgreen [~user@CPE0021910f07ac-CM0019477f82fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:33:28 -!- helichopter [~austin@ool-4577ba80.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:34:03 nialo` [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:17 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 02:39:48 maxm-: Good point. 02:39:51 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:40:11 maxm-: A popular ircd in lisp would also be a good test, then, I suppose. 02:42:40 ask sykopomp how many sockets his httpd has gotten up to 02:42:56 he's focusing on performance metrics like that a lot 02:45:32 edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 02:52:36 isismelting [~jo@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:17 two- [~textual@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:24 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483B898.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:40 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p54839168.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:59:18 -!- dlila [~dlila@72.53.70.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:02:01 -!- springz [~springz@115.173.145.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:20:10 ha, with slime highlighting, my new logging setup looks like this now: http://i.imgur.com/kiVz6.png 03:20:11 springz [~springz@115.173.145.93] has joined #lisp 03:20:21 just need to add a property to click to go to source 03:25:20 kami``` [~user@p57A2E988.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:28:45 -!- kami`` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:30:05 lolsuper_ [~super_@pool-173-65-234-209.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:06 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@pool-173-65-234-209.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 03:30:06 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 03:36:17 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:37:32 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:39:25 -!- Aethaeryn [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has left #lisp 03:50:07 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 03:52:00 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-11.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:54:21 Treyvon [~PenisSujo@201.170.67.45.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:13 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.94.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:58:38 xjrn [~chatzilla@c-67-174-244-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:59:12 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.111] has joined #lisp 03:59:30 -!- Treyvon [~PenisSujo@201.170.67.45.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 04:00:21 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA224C7.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:02:00 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-43-119.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:02:54 ISF [~ivan@187.106.49.167] has joined #lisp 04:04:08 -!- benny [~benny@i577A8255.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:04:20 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 04:04:45 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 04:10:11 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@94.144.63.7] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:18:05 hmmmm [~hmmmmmmm@pool-96-253-194-175.sctnpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:18:28 is there an analogue for push except it prepends the item onto the beginning of the place? 04:19:59 umm... push? 04:20:02 clintm [~clintm@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:21:34 err, at the end then 04:21:59 benny [~benny@i577A1033.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:25:31 nconc 04:31:05 what is the difference between cons and push actually? 04:32:00 (push x y) is (setf y (cons x y)), more or less 04:32:13 ahhh 04:32:16 thank you 04:35:24 why are there arrays in lisp? 04:36:14 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:37:18 Probably something to do with O(1) random access or something ... 04:37:45 uhh.. no offense but, why would anybody be concerned with performance when they're using lisp? 04:39:10 why would anybody be concerned with performance when they're using anything? 04:40:20 hmmm: it's probably a homosexual conspiracy or something. 04:41:21 Or maybe the bankers. I lose track. 04:41:35 those aren't mutually exclusive! 04:42:17 Homosexual bankers would be a force to be reckoned with. 04:42:56 -!- dnolen [~user@p72-0-226-118-static.acedsl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:43:34 they'd certainly be a conspiratorial powerhouse. 04:43:59 You can't make everybody happy. 90% of the newbies complain lisp is not fast enough (it's faster than C!), 10% of the newbies complain it's not slow enough 04:44:08 haha 04:44:09 hmmmm are you implying that lisp is so slow there's no point in worrying about performance? 04:44:19 what does it sound like? 04:44:25 Dumb 04:44:26 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-164-149.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:44:29 watch, now i'm going to be banned 04:44:44 lisp is completely cache incoherent by design 04:44:51 You have one more question, let's see if you can make up. 04:44:52 it has unnecessary overhead 04:45:09 there's no arguing that lisp performs poorly 04:45:26 Go read the reference at http://cliki.net/Performance ; we'll speak later. 04:45:35 references 04:46:01 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-182-11.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:46:25 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-164-149.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:46:34 emperical evidence backs me up: http://blog.gmarceau.qc.ca/2009/05/speed-size-and-dependability-of.html 04:46:36 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-11.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:46:46 I see we have an authority on the design of lisp here! 04:46:46 Go read the references at http://cliki.net/Performance ; we'll speak later. 04:46:58 pjb: btw, that page appears to auto-detect in Chrome at least as ISO-8859-1 but the content is UTF-8. 04:48:01 (as seen in the name "Børge Svingen") 04:48:06 ArmyOfBruce: complain with the maintainer of cliki. 04:48:18 or the authors of Chrome. 04:48:46 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:49:00 hmm: What is lisp? 04:49:27 -!- clintm [~clintm@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: clintm] 04:49:50 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 04:50:28 Don't worry, no CL implementation is mentionned on that blog page. 04:51:16 A toy language for old people too wrapped up in academia to create anything worthwhile^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H 04:51:30 I mean a language that isn't well suited for mainstream computing 04:52:02 hmmmm didn't you ask what null function does the other day? 04:52:09 yes 04:52:35 by the way, those documentation pages tell you everything except what the function's purpose is 04:52:43 kennyd-: he's only here to ask for homework help. 04:52:45 i found that detail rather strange 04:52:58 hmm: It might be that your problem is illiteracy. 04:53:16 mlkith [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 04:53:43 that's possible. but then again, it's also possible that a meteor crashes into earth and kills us all in the next 10 seconds 04:54:42 -!- kami``` is now known as kami` 04:55:04 -!- isismelting [~jo@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 04:55:16 -!- kami` [~user@p57A2E988.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Changing host] 04:55:16 kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 04:55:31 -!- kami` is now known as kami 04:59:22 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 05:02:10 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 05:02:27 _class_ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:05:00 -!- __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:06:50 -!- _class_ is now known as __class__ 05:08:53 these days, is github preferable over common-lisp.net for hosting CL git repos? 05:10:07 hmmmm: that's highly improbable: NASA is watching the skys, any meteor big enough to kill us all in the next 10 seconds would have been detected a long time ago. 05:10:54 Functions don't have any purposes. A hammer neither. You can use a hammer however you please. I use one as a paperweight. 05:11:08 The same for functions. 05:15:03 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:15:16 teggi [~teggi@123.21.160.167] has joined #lisp 05:18:44 -!- Fare [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:22:17 skulls [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/skulls] has joined #lisp 05:23:53 Rather, any purpose is extrinsic. 05:26:15 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:30:31 -!- lebro [~monx@ool-18bc4a28.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 05:30:56 jmdb [~jmdb@199.102.195.41] has joined #lisp 05:31:10 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.115.235] has joined #lisp 05:32:03 -!- jmdb [~jmdb@199.102.195.41] has left #lisp 05:32:58 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 05:35:10 jmdb [~jmdb@199.102.195.41] has joined #lisp 05:35:28 -!- jmdb [~jmdb@199.102.195.41] has left #lisp 05:35:35 pspace [~andrew@c-24-5-81-156.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:37:30 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 05:37:59 Flatlander [~tomppa@b27.kiulu.jyu.fi] has joined #lisp 05:38:01 lindes [~user@p4FF1C952.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 05:39:31 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:39:53 didi` [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 05:40:15 -!- didi` [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:41:09 didi` [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 05:43:47 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:46:32 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:47:00 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:31 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 05:55:53 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 05:56:40 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 05:56:49 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 05:56:57 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-164-149.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:00:55 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-5-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:01:10 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-5-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:01:37 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-5-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:03:37 metaphysician [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 06:04:34 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@206.126.93.212] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 06:07:14 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:07:19 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-177-181.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:07:43 kevin01123 [~user@97-91-232-86.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 06:07:50 -!- kevin01123 [~user@97-91-232-86.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has left #lisp 06:11:00 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:12:18 tlw8913 [~tenorplay@nat3075.oc.edu] has joined #lisp 06:12:40 -!- metaphysician [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:14:14 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 06:14:36 I'm rather new to CL, have played around for class with XLisp, and some of my code is now broken. It's complaining of undeclared free variables, can anybody explain how to declare them so CL is happy? 06:14:48 defparameter 06:15:09 that's how to solve it at a global level. 06:15:23 for local variables, use LET forms. 06:15:52 so where do I declare the global variables, outside of all functions? 06:15:58 Yes. 06:16:11 Preferably, before the functions that use them. 06:16:29 so (defparameter *varname*) anywhere above the functions that need them in the file? 06:16:33 yes 06:17:06 As a rule of thumb, avoid globals when you can. 06:17:11 Sounds good to me. I wonder why Xlisp doesn't behave similarly to CL in this way 06:17:23 XLisp is not Common Lisp. 06:17:45 Well, some CL implementations complain, some don't. 06:18:20 It is not conforming not to declare them. 06:18:43 -!- impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176314164.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:19:35 pnathan: some don't complain if you setq or setf an undefined variable in the repl. in files, i think all of them do complain, no? 06:20:19 impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176314164.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 06:20:24 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 06:20:28 can defparameter take more than one declaration at a time? Ex. (defparameter *var1* *var2*), etc? 06:20:49 tlw8913: no. but you need to look at the documentation to get answers for such questions 06:20:52 clhs defparameter 06:20:52 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpar.htm 06:21:48 defparameter takes an initialization expression. 06:22:26 H4ns: Not sure, I haven't used a non-complaining one for a while and not for heavier use 06:22:53 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 06:22:59 (defmacro defparameters ((var init &optional doc) &rest var-init-optdoc) `(progn (defparameter ,var ,init ,@(when doc (list doc))) ,@(when var-init-optdoc `((defparameters ,@var-init-optdoc ))))) 06:23:02 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 06:23:02 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:23:55 (defparameters (*v1* 1) (*v2* (+ 1 1) "One plus one")) 06:24:37 clintm [~clintm@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:24:39 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:59 if you have a filename as a string, what's your favorite way to pull out the type part? "hello.lisp" => "lisp" 06:26:32 robot-beethoven: pathname-type 06:27:35 oh wow, that's now my new favorite as well 06:27:40 robot-beethoven: but note that common lisp pathnames act unexpectedly sometimes. they don't work well with arbitrary file names. 06:27:51 pnathan1 [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 06:28:30 c0atz1n_ [~c0atz1n@189.224.226.13] has joined #lisp 06:28:46 H4ns: what do you mean by 'arbitrary'? 06:29:03 (mapcar (lambda (path) (subseq path (or (position #\. path :from-end t) (length path)))) '("name.type" ".name" "name" "name.")) => (".type" ".name" "" ".") 06:29:09 robot-beethoven: say, if you have a problem with a "*" in it, it can get messy. 06:29:13 The second answer is wrong. 06:29:27 -!- c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.224.226.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:29:31 pjb: that unindented lisp code in the channel is annoying 06:29:40 (mapcar (lambda (path) (subseq path (or (position #\. path :from-end t) (length path)))) '("name.type" ".name" "name" "name.")) => (".type" ".name" "" "." "/dir.type/name") => (".type" ".name" "" ".") 06:29:45 That's perfectly intended. 06:30:12 pjb: you want to annoy? thank you for the clarification. 06:30:18 H4ns: that's called one-liners. 06:30:30 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:30:57 -!- borkman [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 06:33:44 Anyways, when H4ns interrupted, I wanted to write: 06:33:47 (mapcar (lambda (path) (subseq path (or (position #\. path :from-end t) (length path)))) '(".type" ".name" "" "." "/dir.type/name")) => (".type" ".name" "" "." ".type/name") 06:34:03 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 06:34:29 Which shows that writing a correct type extractor is not as easy as you may think, so using pathname-type might still be a good idea, even if it cannot deal with all the unix pathnames. 06:36:04 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:37:30 BigHugeDog [~QQ@221.0.11.215] has joined #lisp 06:38:11 ghuntley [~ghuntley@CPE-60-225-85-11.hhui2.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 06:41:54 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-5-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 06:43:41 -!- hmmmm [~hmmmmmmm@pool-96-253-194-175.sctnpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Just according to keikaku] 06:43:58 albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #lisp 06:46:25 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-5-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:52:12 -!- impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176314164.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:57:33 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-5-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 07:04:18 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:04:47 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 07:06:03 -!- didi` [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:08:47 lambda_zero_cool [~james@cpe-76-171-236-105.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:11:43 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:12:07 pjb: un-inDENTed, he said, not un-inTENDed. :) 07:12:24 I know ;-) 07:12:44 ok. just making sure. I actually read it as unintended myself, the first time. ;) 07:13:48 though it makes me wonder: was python's choice to make whitespace relevance mandatory inspired by someone's experiences with lisp? :) 07:14:04 -!- lambda_zero_cool [~james@cpe-76-171-236-105.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:18:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.50.122] has joined #lisp 07:18:08 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.50.122] has quit [Changing host] 07:18:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 07:21:16 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:24:43 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 07:25:32 -!- pnathan1 [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:27:40 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.111] has joined #lisp 07:32:16 -!- skulls [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/skulls] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:34:26 -!- prxq_ [~mommer@mnhm-4d0101b7.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:34:48 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d0101b7.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:36 l0cool [~james@cpe-76-171-236-105.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:41:06 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:41:35 -!- l0cool [~james@cpe-76-171-236-105.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:44:14 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181241043.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:45:06 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-176-214.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:45:07 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-176-214.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 07:45:07 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 07:48:08 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:48:26 c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.238.3.192] has joined #lisp 07:49:44 -!- c0atz1n_ [~c0atz1n@189.224.226.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:49:50 -!- Flatlander [~tomppa@b27.kiulu.jyu.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:51:28 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-402776.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 07:52:01 -!- sty [~quassel@dsl-173-248-200-188.acanac.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:52:58 sty [~quassel@dsl-173-248-200-188.acanac.net] has joined #lisp 07:54:30 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.111] has joined #lisp 07:54:57 n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@88.205.227.181] has joined #lisp 07:56:12 -!- sty [~quassel@dsl-173-248-200-188.acanac.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:56:55 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:57:37 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:00:07 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-176-214.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:00:07 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-176-214.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 08:00:07 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 08:02:06 -!- splittist [b2c6684a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.198.104.74] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:03:50 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-402776.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:05:21 kilon [~kilon@ppp-94-64-186-191.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 08:09:57 scombinator [~user@121-73-59-25.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 08:10:18 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 08:11:45 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.104.38] has joined #lisp 08:13:29 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:18:58 thom_ [~thom@pool-173-60-243-134.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:19:57 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.160.167] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:20:30 teggi [~teggi@123.21.160.167] has joined #lisp 08:21:09 venk [~user@mail.protocomtech.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:21:50 -!- vpit3833 [~user@mail.protocomtech.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:22:16 -!- thom_logn [~thom@pool-173-60-243-134.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:23:34 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:23:42 skulls [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/skulls] has joined #lisp 08:32:06 -!- clintm [~clintm@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: clintm] 08:41:00 forgot to show another new feature of specbot 08:41:07 clhs glossary/explicit return 08:41:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_e.htm#explicit_return 08:41:42 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@dsl-stat-43-17.mmc.at] has joined #lisp 08:50:32 nice! 08:51:18 is there an apropos-like thing as well? 08:51:25 no 08:52:22 its output will be to lengthy for the channel, l1sp.org would do the job 08:52:36 true 08:53:10 could you make the glossary normalize spaces and dashes? 08:53:44 what do you mean? 08:53:57 so all of "ordinary-lambda-list", "ordinary lambda-list", and "ordinary lambda list" would return the thing i'm looking for 08:54:05 why destructuring-bind not implemented through cl-pattern in sbcl ? 08:54:18 https://github.com/arielnetworks/cl-pattern - see benchmark 08:54:20 what is cl-pattern? 08:54:47 nikodemus: probably, yes 08:55:33 08:55:44 anonus: i don't see a licence file 08:55:45 but anyway, why it so slow ? 08:55:51 no idea offhand 08:56:11 probably not a deep issue 08:56:44 stassats: implied GPL ? 08:57:09 implied full copyright 08:57:15 proprietary 08:57:39 ok, :license "LLGPL" 08:57:44 -!- xvilka [~xvilka@unaffiliated/xvilka] has left #lisp 08:58:02 i don't think that'll fit SBCL 08:58:34 lol I always catch the team euro with my first cup of morning coffee 08:59:33 stassats: maybe it's the sign that something wrong with destructuring-bind ? 08:59:41 *maxm-* had seen destructuring-bind being slow before.. Its probably from (declare (type list)) 08:59:51 and corresponding assertion 09:00:05 its very strict 09:00:06 anonus: what is? 09:00:40 sbcl destructuring-bind speed, vs implementation of same without type declarations 09:00:41 dunno, i haven't looked into sources yet 09:01:55 but allegro for example have destructuring-bind almost 5 times faster than match 09:02:16 just macroexpand it.. It has both (type list) (not sure what assertion calls on that), and then a call to sb-int:proper-list-of-length-p 09:03:25 type declaration doesn't affect it 09:03:32 proper-list-of-length-p is slow 09:03:56 also, cl-pattern isn't actually a drop-in replacement for destructuring-bind. it doesn't seem to provide defaults or supplied-p 09:05:03 yeah. if i remove it from the expansion, cl-pattern nd destructuring-bind preform identically 09:05:35 does sbcl skip proper-list-of-length-p with (declare (optimized (safety 0))) ? 09:05:38 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:06:13 c0atz1n_ [~c0atz1n@189.238.54.220] has joined #lisp 09:06:29 -!- c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.238.3.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:06:38 you can test it and see 09:07:10 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:07:46 but proper-list-of-length-p could be optimized for low values of N 09:08:24 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:08:37 it probably can be rewritten by using (let ((var1 (pop temp)) (var2 (pop temp))) (assert (null temp) () 'arg-count-error ...)) 09:08:39 nope, it's the same time with (safety 0) 09:09:02 *maxm-* means the SBCL's defmacro of destructuring-bind 09:09:46 actually wondering what affect that may have on compile speed, 09:10:12 last time I profiled it it was all spent on something or other finding stuff about types.. 09:10:48 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 09:11:04 soo 09:11:49 is there way to say destructuring-bind not to use proper-list-of-length-p with (safety 0) or it affects only the compiler ? 09:12:49 even declaring the types for MIN and MAX shaves 50% of it's cost :) 09:13:10 anonus: no, but it's an easy change 09:13:11 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-177-181.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:13:26 anonus: write your own macro, or use (iterate) or (loop) version of destructuring. Also I suspect now that you pointed it out, SBCL folks being buttheart by SBCL being slow, will produce a patch within a reasonable amount of time 09:13:28 destructuring-bind speed is noise in the compiler 09:13:52 if you're using it at runtime in an inner loop, then you may notice 09:14:19 a deftransform which expands to CDRs and CONSPs for low values of N should help 09:14:27 maxm-: really, i hope that, because it is exactly my intent :3 09:14:44 *maxm-* uses it quite a lot, but it never showed up much in profiles.. I'll grep my code for it anyway to see if any on critical path needs changing 09:16:22 *maxm-* can't type in the earli mornings 09:16:31 any time actually 09:17:12 And maxm- uses too much /me's (action messages). :-) 09:19:01 heiz [~awe@ppp91-122-13-244.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 09:19:41 halo 09:19:48 -!- heiz [~awe@ppp91-122-13-244.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has left #lisp 09:22:19 -!- springz [~springz@115.173.145.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:23:03 *Ralith* waves at nikodemus 09:23:09 heiz [~awe@ppp91-122-13-244.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 09:24:35 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 09:24:42 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 09:25:11 Hey guys, is it possible to suppress ClozureCL's branding on its start? 09:25:50 eataix [~eataix@ppp-37-42.grapevine.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:25:50 -!- eataix [~eataix@ppp-37-42.grapevine.net.au] has quit [Changing host] 09:25:50 eataix [~eataix@unaffiliated/eataix] has joined #lisp 09:25:51 Oh, sry for my english. 09:26:07 kanru`` [~user@61-228-148-40.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 09:26:32 I talk about message "Welcome to Clozure Common Lisp Version 1.8-r15286M (WindowsX8632)!" 09:27:31 -!- Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-128-240.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:27:33 stassats: i have a faster version done. adding a deftransform next... fun bit: this is faster even though it also checks for circularity :) 09:27:47 jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-252.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:27:49 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-128-240.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:28:03 i'm trying a deftransform right now 09:28:49 oh, cool :) 09:28:51 n1tn4tsn0k: it's freedom software: you have the freedom to modify it not to issue that message. 09:28:59 i'll paste mine so you can combine them :) 09:29:55 http://paste.lisp.org/display/128842 09:30:16 -!- bbirec [~bbirec@119.202.82.67] has left #lisp 09:31:04 pjb: it is hard to modify source code of so big program. Is there another way to do it? 09:31:39 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-14-2.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 09:31:40 oh, what one can achieve with proper motivation of nerds 09:31:54 *maxm-* considers reading a psychology book next 09:31:58 maxm-: your comments are not welcome 09:32:47 -!- minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-12-36.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:32:47 -!- specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-12-36.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:34:31 stassats: We have some fundamental failure to communicate here. my comment was intended to be lighthearted and funny 09:34:43 blame in on not being fully awake yet 09:34:59 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-19.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:35:25 clintm [~clintm@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:37:03 -!- heiz [~awe@ppp91-122-13-244.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 09:40:07 time to go --> 09:40:10 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181241043.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:40:17 n1tn4tsn0k: it's easy to modify messages. Grep for them! 09:40:24 or rather, find-grep 09:40:46 find /usr/local/src/ccl -type f -exec grep -niH Welcome {} /dev/null \; 09:41:56 No, pjb, you don't understand what I mean. When I want to update CCL, I'll have to make this modification again. 09:45:59 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@xdsl-77-86-196-131.nebulazone.fi] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 09:57:14 n1tn4tsn0k: not really. When you git pull, or svn update, or whatever, changes are merged. Your local modifications are kept, unless there is a conflict, which is improbable. 09:57:38 n1tn4tsn0k: otherwise, this is freedom software: you are free to provide a patch! 09:59:58 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.Red-88-11-22.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:01:44 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.115.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:02:10 peterhil [~peterhil@xdsl-77-86-196-131.nebulazone.fi] has joined #lisp 10:04:04 n1tn4tsn0k: you _could_ try reading the manual, or maybe run "ccl --help" 10:05:47 H4ns: option -q is there but it works only with -b option. I don't need it. 10:06:12 n1tn4tsn0k: you need it if you want to have the herald suppressed. 10:07:01 kvsari [~kvsari@119-173-226-228.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:07:20 sacho_ [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 10:07:20 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181241043.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:08:30 -!- mlkith [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Quit: #yhiselamu | www.yhiselamu.ee (Session timeout)] 10:10:11 But what if I want to run saved image, not script? 10:10:33 n1tn4tsn0k: what would be the problem? 10:10:50 wx86cl -bqI image ? 10:11:15 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:11:47 n1tn4tsn0k: wx86cl -b -q -I image 10:11:56 n1tn4tsn0k: ccl's command line parser is, erm, dumb. 10:13:04 n1tn4tsn0k: uh, and it is -Q, not -q, sorry. 10:13:55 Yes, it's my mistake. 10:15:40 -!- eataix [~eataix@unaffiliated/eataix] has quit [] 10:18:43 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 10:19:17 -!- ejohnson [~elliott@vr.elliottjohnson.net] 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14:07:06 tessier [~treed@216.105.40.125] has joined #lisp 14:08:33 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-58-165-252-158.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:09:46 djuber [~user@c-76-16-60-176.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:48 [SLB] [~slabua@host85-170-dynamic.2-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:09:48 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host85-170-dynamic.2-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 14:09:48 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 14:11:53 Argh... Does anyone have a single example code snippet of cl-lex being used with cl-yacc? 14:18:49 springz [~springz@115.173.145.93] has joined #lisp 14:19:09 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.136] has joined #lisp 14:20:27 Nothing in quicklisp uses cl-yacc 14:20:39 Which is odd, because I thought a few things (like jwacs and xpath) did 14:20:50 Oh, I grepped wrong 14:21:26 No, none of the systems that use yacc use cl-lex 14:24:31 I see 14:24:44 Are there any systems that use cl-lex at least? 14:25:02 I think I got a handle on cl-yacc, but it seems my lexer definition is not returning the right thing 14:25:39 loke: nobody uses cl-lex 14:25:48 ok 14:25:52 I'm starting to see why 14:26:04 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 14:26:15 Xach: do you have a suggestion for alternatives? 14:26:26 alternatives to the lex/yacc combo that is 14:26:49 no, sorry. i guess i'd look at things that use cl-yacc and see how they lex. plexippus-xpath or jwacs or clpython 14:27:47 loke: what are you processing? 14:28:15 I need something for my html templating tool 14:28:56 The one we discussed yesterday :-) 14:30:02 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:31:58 specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-77-61.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 14:32:03 minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-77-61.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 14:32:22 kennyd_ [~comm@93-139-93-84.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 14:32:41 -!- kennyd_ [~comm@93-139-93-84.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Client Quit] 14:32:42 ah 14:33:45 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:34:04 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.Red-88-11-22.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 14:34:30 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-133-22.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:35:41 -!- kennyd- [~sile@93-136-133-22.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:37:13 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.Red-88-11-22.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:55 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 14:39:05 kennyd [~kennyd@93-139-93-84.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 14:40:28 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.136] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:40:55 I like smug for pattern matching. if you're parsing html, look at closure-html 14:41:22 if only as an example. 14:41:29 Fade: I don't really want to parse HTML. In fact, the HTML should be left untouched :-) 14:43:29 ahh 14:43:33 I think I'm getting it now 14:49:54 -!- Phooodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:49:58 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:32 Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-036.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 15:01:01 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@94.144.63.9] has joined #lisp 15:01:01 bjonnh [~bjonnh@2a01:e35:8a53:8940:21e:64ff:fe84:8986] has joined #lisp 15:01:14 -!- tessier [~treed@216.105.40.125] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:02:16 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:04:00 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:06:30 kennyd- [~comm@93-139-93-84.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 15:14:07 sacho [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 15:15:00 erlnoob [~erlnoob@110.138.71.118] has joined #lisp 15:16:02 -!- sacho_ [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:17:06 morning 15:17:15 c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.238.57.57] has joined #lisp 15:17:31 -!- c0atz1n_ [~c0atz1n@189.238.6.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:17:48 hey slyrus 15:17:51 how go the hacks and glory? 15:20:58 HP [~user@194.146.229.120] has joined #lisp 15:23:26 *Xach* gets an idea for a t shirt design 15:23:52 not much glory in debugging :( 15:24:41 cabaire [~nobody@xdsl-78-35-184-110.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:27:33 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:27:38 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:28:02 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 15:28:25 tessier [~treed@216.105.40.125] has joined #lisp 15:30:01 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has left #lisp 15:31:11 debugging is 90% reproducing a problem. Once you have repeatable reproduction, the rest is engineering. 15:31:16 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:47 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:33:40 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:34:53 -!- HP [~user@194.146.229.120] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:37:43 -!- erlnoob [~erlnoob@110.138.71.118] has left #lisp 15:39:19 -!- kilon [~kilon@ppp-94-64-186-191.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:39:38 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:40:24 -!- lindes [~user@p4FF1C952.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:40:33 -!- djuber [~user@c-76-16-60-176.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:40:47 lindes [~user@p4FF1C952.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:41:29 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.160.167] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:41:49 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.149.2] has joined #lisp 15:41:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.149.2] has quit [Changing host] 15:41:50 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:42:18 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:15 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-036.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:45:08 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:48:39 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:49:09 -!- springz [~springz@115.173.145.93] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:50:51 -!- lindes [~user@p4FF1C952.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:52:00 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:52:12 -!- ainm [~ainm@238.Red-83-61-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:52:14 ainm [~ainm@238.Red-83-61-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:29 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:54:29 -!- specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-77-61.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:54:29 -!- minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-77-61.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:58:23 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.106.49.167] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:04:53 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 16:06:33 yay. with edi's cl-ppcre bug fix and a little more work to soiree, I can now parse and validate the corresponding xml for a (very) simple ics file. 16:09:56 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 16:10:38 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-252.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:11:49 I thought we were due new mcclim releases on religious holidays?!? 16:12:07 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@176.222.155.205] has joined #lisp 16:12:08 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:15:05 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:15:10 minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-77-61.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 16:15:15 specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-77-61.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 16:15:21 -!- kanru`` [~user@61-228-148-40.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:15:52 McCLIM 0.9.7 "Chocolate Rabbit Surprise"? 16:17:11 Kron_ [~Kron@206.126.93.212] has joined #lisp 16:20:13 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 16:24:29 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.111] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:24:45 700 cl libraries in ql, impressive 16:24:51 lemoinem [~swoog@128-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:06 if a religious holiday ever coincides with April 1st, I'll volunteer to do a new release. 16:28:41 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:29:02 Western Easter in 2018 16:29:25 -!- gilligan_ [~gilligan_@host-089-207-254-228.vipri.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:29:42 ghost_ [~ghost@2001:da8:d800:101:216:d3ff:feae:1b91] has joined #lisp 16:30:37 or Lazarus Saturday in 2017 16:30:44 I prefer Country Easter 16:31:13 hefner: you have some time to prepare 16:34:02 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:34:19 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:15 c0atz1n_ [~c0atz1n@189.224.64.12] has joined #lisp 16:39:23 teggi [~teggi@113.172.42.8] has joined #lisp 16:40:21 -!- c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.238.57.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:41:23 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:42:37 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:44:44 hugoduncan [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584440.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:45:19 pnathan1 [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 16:47:37 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584440.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:48:34 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:49:17 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE0021910f07ac-CM0019477f82fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:51:41 -!- jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 16:52:54 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:53:12 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:53:41 rvrebane [~rvrebane@valjapaas.vkhk.ee] has joined #lisp 16:54:17 slyrus: what is "ics"? 16:55:10 -!- hugoduncan [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584440.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:55:28 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:56:06 slyrus: ok. got it. cool :) 17:00:14 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-5-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:48 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:03:34 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA00ED.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:06:50 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 17:06:51 -!- mope [~mope@02da15a3.bb.sky.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:07:27 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:08:29 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:09:34 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:10:09 ISF [~ivan@187.106.49.167] has joined #lisp 17:10:40 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:10:57 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:00 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-199-7.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:19:22 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:19:52 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-164-149.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:21:05 stassats: I guess now's a good time to suggest another specbot feature: "clhs operator function" would give the link for the FUNCTION special form directly instead of the disambiguation page (it's usually unambiguous from the conversation which was meant, but a direct link would be nice nonetheless.) 17:23:05 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:23:45 -!- ghost_ [~ghost@2001:da8:d800:101:216:d3ff:feae:1b91] has quit [Quit: ] 17:24:12 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:25:01 metaphysician [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 17:25:26 you're not original! 17:25:48 stassats: What, you're already implementing it? 17:26:12 i already thought of it, but since queries can contain spaces i'm not sure how to better make it yet 17:26:50 i'm thinking spec-name query :type 17:26:51 What about "clhs operator/function"? 17:26:58 Like for glossary. 17:27:19 so, the last element with the leading : would determine type 17:28:52 I'm not sure I understand. What would be an example? For instance for operator FUNCTION... 17:29:04 clhs function :type 17:29:19 Sounds good. 17:30:08 and when there's an ambiguity, specbot could say "there are two entries for this term :function, :type" and you could just say "specbot: :function" and it would return the previous query + :function 17:32:58 I have an idea, not sure if it would make sense. Basically your thing, except in case of ambiguity specbot would send a PM to the user, and the user would pm to resolve ambiguity (For instance, "function"), and then specbot would post the correct link and tell that ambiguity was resolved in some way. 17:34:54 could work too 17:35:15 might be a bit confusing with some clients 17:35:28 -!- cods [~cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:35:30 and people in the channel would get confused why there's no answer 17:35:35 Example: "specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/s_fn.htm (special operator function, ambiguity with symbol, system class, glossary entry resolved by user by PM)" 17:36:11 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 17:36:24 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:36:39 i don't think it'll add too much noise, there's not so much ambiguous things in CLHS and after a while active people using it would learn to type clhs foo :function right away 17:36:44 Right, in case the user doesn't promptly resolve the situation, it could get confusing ("Is specbot down again?"). Perhaps there could be a timeout. Or perhaps it's too much trouble after all. 17:36:54 True. 17:37:18 hugod [~user@76.65.142.12] has joined #lisp 17:37:23 it's just too clever 17:39:25 Hum. Would "clhs operator function" really be harder to parse than "clhs function :operator"? 17:40:24 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181241043.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:41:03 for CLHS, it's not hard, but i'm making a general spec lookup where "clhs type term" could be ambiguous 17:42:39 Could you lisppaste all query types with an example for each? Or maybe just an example for each and we guess the rest. 17:43:18 i don't understand the question 17:43:34 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:43:42 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 17:43:54 Well, so that we can see what the current syntaxes are and see what possible alternative syntaxes would work well and which wouldn't. 17:44:47 as i said above, "spec-name term [:ambiguity-resolving-keyword]" 17:44:48 Instead of blindly suggesting: "What about syntax X?" and then "It wouldn't work well because it clashes with other syntaxes, causing ambiguity." 17:45:01 term can have spaces, that is all 17:45:31 But only for glossary entries?... 17:45:49 in clhs, yes 17:46:58 cltl2-section Floating-Point Numbers 17:46:58 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node19.html 17:47:20 snearch [~snearch@f053015217.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:49:18 "clhs function :operator" would work well. I give this syntax my unsolicited approval! 17:49:49 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181241043.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:49:58 phew 17:53:40 -!- helichopter [~austin@ool-4577ba80.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:55:55 gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 17:56:33 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 17:58:46 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:05:37 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-401573.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 18:15:46 phrixos [~foo@adsl-178-78-98-141.karoo.kcom.com] has joined #lisp 18:15:47 -!- phrixos [~foo@adsl-178-78-98-141.karoo.kcom.com] has quit [Changing host] 18:15:47 phrixos [~foo@unaffiliated/phrixos] has joined #lisp 18:25:03 sickle [~Harrison@pool-108-20-196-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:51 how can I load a *.lisp from the REPL? 18:27:07 foo.lisp -> (load "foo") 18:29:09 phrixos: thank you 18:30:16 -!- pspace [~andrew@c-24-5-81-156.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 18:30:16 That will try loading a .fasl file if one is present, afair. 18:30:28 Isn't it better to (load "foo.lisp") explicitly? 18:31:29 clhs load 18:31:29 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_load.htm 18:31:41 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:31:50 hmm 18:31:54 impelementation-defined 18:32:03 i suppose it would depend on exactly what you're trying to achieve then 18:32:06 Yeah, as I thought. 18:32:22 some implementations will try to load "foo.lsp" 18:32:30 or both, in any unspecified order. 18:32:42 So I'd say a full pathspec is preferable in that case. 18:32:45 so, I think it's best to specify the extension. 18:32:51 yeah 18:32:51 yup. 18:33:30 or be adventurous 18:33:46 live on the edge! 18:33:50 stassats: lol 18:33:54 will it be the compiled version? 18:33:57 or the fresh one? 18:34:01 the REPL makes it fun to be adventerous 18:34:02 roll the die... 18:34:45 or know what files there are 18:35:00 phrixos: Actually sbcl attempts to load the .fasl but if it's older than the source file it SIMPLE-ERRORs. 18:35:08 and if it's only a foo.lisp, do (load "foo"), "foo.lisp" otherwise 18:35:14 Yet another option for the roulette. 18:35:26 (at least that's what i do) 18:35:27 huh 18:35:48 nialo- [~nialo@pool-74-106-95-131.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:56 can you program vim with lisp? or is that exclusive to emacs? 18:36:25 program vim? 18:36:28 write vim in lisp? 18:36:35 customize vim* 18:36:39 nope 18:36:52 not directly 18:36:52 vim uses its own language 18:37:05 sickle: depending on what value you have for lisp you can't quite do it with emacs either. 18:37:11 or if you compile it with the right options you can use ruby / python / perl for certain tasks 18:37:56 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 18:38:05 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.42.8] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:38:08 schmx: talking in riddles! 18:39:00 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 18:39:04 albacker_ [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:17 -!- albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 18:39:17 -!- attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@176.222.155.205] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:40:59 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.106.49.167] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:43:13 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C12D6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:45:14 -!- albacker_ is now known as albacker 18:45:18 -!- albacker [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:45:18 albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #lisp 18:45:21 -!- albacker is now known as eni 18:52:01 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C12D6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:52:43 stassats: (: 18:53:28 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:53:53 stassats: did i get a good slime? 18:54:47 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:55:04 Did you guys have a moment when you "got" macros? 18:55:21 Probably, but it was so long ago I don't remember. 18:55:30 I still haven't "gotten" them 18:55:43 Just code writing code 18:55:58 backquote takes a little getting use to, but it greatly simplifies things once you do 18:56:01 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:56:06 backquote as in `? 18:56:10 yes 18:56:23 I thought it was QUOTE shortened? 18:56:34 -!- metaphysician [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Quit: metaphysician] 18:56:48 It's a reader macro 18:57:06 you've gone over my head 18:57:13 im making my way through PCL right now but its going a little fast 18:57:47 backquote is terse syntax for a template system 18:57:59 code that is mostly constant with some stuff spliced in 18:57:59 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C12D6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:58:29 sickle: there's a difference between ' (quote) and ` (backquote) 18:58:44 I thought we were talking about backquote 18:58:53 right. 18:59:06 but you say "I thought it was QUOTE shortened" 18:59:15 cods [~cods@tuxee.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:26 which also exists: it's the single quote character 18:59:37 backquote is something different. 19:00:03 (quote (a b c)) == '(a b c) 19:01:05 I thought (quote (a b c)) =?= `(a b c) 19:01:08 but I see now 19:01:44 leo2007 [~leo@123.123.255.207] has joined #lisp 19:01:46 If you dont' use , or ,@ in the body of a backquote, it's just like quote 19:02:18 '(a b c) == `(a b c) == (quote (a b c)) 19:02:33 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@94.144.63.9] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:02:37 Xach: i think so 19:02:54 what would you do if i said "no"? 19:02:56 billstclair: true, but I think that's muddying the waters 19:03:17 Yes, backquote is only interesting if you use comma or atsign-comma 19:03:24 comma-atsign 19:03:42 *billstclair* 's dyslexia rears its head 19:04:05 how about little ,. ? 19:04:35 I never use it 19:04:49 stassats: cry, curl into ball, hide in dark room 19:04:56 stassats: not in that order 19:06:47 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 19:10:45 nif [~nif@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has joined #lisp 19:11:32 -!- rvrebane [~rvrebane@valjapaas.vkhk.ee] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:11:43 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-199-7.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:12:20 DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-14-2.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:24 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.123.255.207] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.95.1] 19:21:41 Fullmoon_ [~Fullmoon@dsl-stat-43-17.mmc.at] has joined #lisp 19:23:50 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@dsl-stat-43-17.mmc.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:23:51 -!- Fullmoon_ is now known as Fullmoon 19:25:59 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-199-7.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:32:57 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 19:33:10 bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:59 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 19:34:41 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-199-7.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:35:50 dkasak_ [~dkasak@dh207-22-207.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 19:36:20 -!- dkasak_ [~dkasak@dh207-22-207.xnet.hr] has left #lisp 19:37:35 Froward [~uh-oh@64.134.69.12] has joined #lisp 19:38:54 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C12D6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:42:20 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 19:47:13 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:47:22 teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has joined #lisp 19:47:23 lindes [~user@p4FF1C324.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:48:17 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.Red-88-11-22.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 19:48:36 senthil [~senthil@99-51-1-6.lightspeed.snjsca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:11 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-80-89.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:51:57 gric [~gric@leloop/gric] has joined #lisp 19:53:47 mitu [~user@188.26.54.24] has joined #lisp 19:55:22 tashbear [~tash@unaffiliated/el-tash/x-7763973] has joined #lisp 19:57:37 -!- nialo- [~nialo@pool-74-106-95-131.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 19:58:27 -!- lindes [~user@p4FF1C324.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #lisp 20:03:10 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:03:25 -!- tashbear [~tash@unaffiliated/el-tash/x-7763973] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:05:19 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:10 stickycake [~stickycak@207.239.107.3] has joined #lisp 20:07:11 RomyRomy [~stickycak@207.239.107.3] has joined #lisp 20:07:32 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@207.239.107.3] has quit [Client Quit] 20:07:52 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C140A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:08:52 -!- mitu [~user@188.26.54.24] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:12:40 francogrex [~user@109.130.100.32] has joined #lisp 20:12:44 helichopter [~austin@pool-96-242-43-207.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:46 -!- nif [~nif@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:12:46 Kynes`_ [~GTSpyVan1@adsl-75-0-14-91.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:52 lindes [~user@p4FF1C324.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:13:20 is there any friendly lib that implements fsm ? 20:14:54 ikki [~ikki@200.95.163.84] has joined #lisp 20:15:05 (apropos "DFA") gives com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.dfa 20:15:21 cl-flying-spaghetti-monster 20:15:49 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:16:01 fsm = finite state machine ) 20:16:10 we could really use an acronym bot 20:16:23 I don't think so. 20:16:24 -!- Kynes` [~GTSpyVan1@adsl-75-0-4-185.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:16:33 we have! 20:16:35 Xach: They're useful, and can be ignored if you'd rather not see them. 20:16:37 easier just to tell me to shut the hell up. 20:16:37 minion: what does FSM mean? 20:16:38 Fishhooks Simianity Manurer 20:16:52 We need a bot smarter than minion. 20:17:15 ..but not so smart as to be a threat. 20:17:18 question 20:17:18 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 20:17:23 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:17:23 I always hear how great the REPL is 20:17:24 No 20:17:33 but how is it different from a normal interpreter? 20:17:37 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:39 (e.g. one like for python?) 20:17:53 An interpreter is not a repl, a repl is not an interpreter. 20:18:03 Can you describe the difference on one foot? 20:18:03 soo, is there any lib that implements interface for state machine ? 20:18:05 You can have batch interpreters. 20:18:09 minion: please tell sickle about slime.mov 20:18:10 sickle: direct your attention towards slime.mov: "using SLIME" video by Marco Baringer, http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov 20:18:12 You can have interactive compilers. 20:18:20 The point of REPL is that it's interactive. 20:18:35 naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has joined #lisp 20:19:22 anonus: what would such a library provide? 20:19:24 sickle: you use an interpreters with #!/usr/bin/python. You use a REPL by running the program at the CLI interactively: clisp RET (+ 1 2) RET  20:19:36 nif [~nif@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has joined #lisp 20:19:42 hefner: easy way to declare fsm 20:19:44 sickle: and you use a compiler in batch: gcc -o pgm pgm.c 20:19:51 like in erlang/otp 20:19:59 or haskell 20:20:07 sickle: But the REPL can use an interpreter or a compiler. 20:20:38 anonus: fsm is around 40 lines of macros. I have some somewhere. Used it to parse a text protocol. 20:21:18 sorry, will have to look for it tomorrow. 20:21:31 An FSM is one variable and a CASE expression. Conversations like these confuse me terrible; either I'm a simpleton, or the world is mad. 20:21:34 If you don't want to rewrite those 40 lines, use (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum) (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.dfa:define-state-machine ) 20:21:55 hefner: you need a loop too. 20:22:01 when explaining repl work, imho best thing is to show a video of a gu yworking with it 20:22:10 hefner: and there are some nice extensions, such as action to be run on entry or exit of a state, things like that. 20:22:18 yes if you strip everything to bare bones, its same thing as pythons >>> prompt 20:22:28 hefner: i know, i can easily write it too, but i was hoping that there is ready lib for that 20:22:52 pjb: oh, wow, thanks, i'll try 20:22:53 okay, so, both. gotcha. 20:22:59 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.163.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:23:03 but difference is, lisp was designed for that style of development, and existing tools build on top of it, providing the interactive environment, with rapid prototyping abilities, that is way beyond anything python has 20:23:05 what's a fast lisp dialect for a f(x) beginner? 20:23:09 But I can't imagine how you can enter an expression in python REPL, since it has no closing parenthesis. 20:23:32 senthil: programming languages have no speed 20:23:34 senthil: your question is meaningless. Try again. 20:23:39 ie I can develop dialogs/gui's in commonqt faster then I can in C++ with either kdevelop, visual studio, or even Qt's built-in javascript bindings 20:23:51 IMFORMATIMAGO SAVES THE WORLD again. 20:23:53 Common Lisp has an implementation which is decently fast, SBCL 20:23:58 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.Red-88-11-22.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:03 clojure is nice, but jvm takes a while to boot up 20:24:05 Is SBCL preferred over clisp? 20:24:06 sbcl compiler is slower than most. Try clisp. 20:24:09 to give you an example, large projects working in Python, such as Eve online 20:24:16 sickle: yes, unless you're pjb 20:24:19 they basically re-implemented half of CL.. 20:24:19 sickle: depends if you want a fast implementation or an implementation generating fast code. 20:24:30 what if I want both? 20:24:33 maxm-: of course. 20:24:38 sickle: try Clozure CL 20:24:39 they have their own loader, their own package system, their own generics system etc 20:24:49 im going to stick with clisp purely because im lazy 20:24:54 ccl is in the middle between clisp and sbcl. 20:25:03 da_tash [~tash@186.144.183.75] has joined #lisp 20:25:03 -!- da_tash [~tash@186.144.183.75] has quit [Changing host] 20:25:03 da_tash [~tash@unaffiliated/el-tash/x-7763973] has joined #lisp 20:25:10 generating faster code than clisp, slower than sbcl. 20:25:20 err, faster than sbcl. 20:25:32 ccl have good gc 20:25:48 that multi-threading-aware 20:25:59 anonus: is that a fact? 20:25:59 srsly? 20:26:13 stassats: no 20:26:17 hmm, ccl have concurrent gc? rather then stop-the-world? 20:26:18 anonus: I know it has a generational GC but not thread-aware like Erlang's. 20:26:22 maxm-: no 20:26:38 ah ok.. Coz stop-the-world is my biggest performance killer when doing parallel stuff.. 20:26:55 have to set bytes-consed-between-gcs to 4 gigs, still stops every 5-6 seconds 20:27:07 just cons less 20:27:08 it uses thread-local gcs, doesn't it? 20:27:09 maxm-: in CCL? 20:27:13 anonus: no 20:27:15 I thought sbcl had per-thread younger generations. 20:28:18 *anonus* went to write some benchmarks 20:28:31 what for? 20:28:33 Dodek [am291698@duch.mimuw.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 20:28:39 naryl: no sbcl 20:28:59 to compare gcs in sbcl and ccl 20:29:41 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-5-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 20:30:06 sbcl per-thread thing is 4k per page 20:30:18 modern data amount seat that up very fast 20:30:51 anonus: on what task? many threads? huge and often changing global vars? deep recursion with lots of local vars (I'm pretty sure SBCL would use stack in this case)? 20:31:09 Hi! I'd like to print n times dash, can I do it quickly using format? 20:31:10 pjb: err i guess what i really want is something with a good debugger and minimal time between writing code and seeing it run 20:31:14 i'll try different 20:31:16 I've tried (format t "~v,'-d" 7 0), but I cant get rid of last number... 20:31:26 but main intent to many threads with huge data, yes 20:31:42 Kron [~Kron@206.126.93.212] has joined #lisp 20:31:49 anonus: try local and global data. 20:31:57 *to benchmark 20:31:59 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@206.126.93.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:32:02 ok 20:32:06 Hm... in the last case locking would invaliadte the results. 20:32:07 naryl: basically evolutionary computing stuff, with objective function crunching a lot of time series data.. market related.. using ramp evolve and merge populations algorithm 20:32:27 mrSpec: (format "~30,,,'-A" "") 20:32:43 -!- skulls [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/skulls] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:32:45 mrSpec: (format t "~v,,,'-<~>" 7) 20:33:13 (defun ramp (depth ...) (if (zerop ramp) (make-and-evolve-random-generation) (merge-populations (ramp (1- depth)) (ramp (1- depth))))) 20:33:27 the 2nd clause of if can be done in parallel, so its very scalable 20:33:33 thanks! so I need to read about ,,, one more time 20:34:25 mrSpec: stassats' solution is good, you need to look at ~< 20:35:06 k, doing it 20:36:39 mrSpec: of course, (format t " ") is shorter. 20:37:00 ;-) 20:37:01 if you want to print an arbitrary thing N times (format t "~v@{~a~:*~:}~*" 7 "ab") 20:37:10 pjb: yeah, but it doesnt print any dashes ;) 20:37:30 -!- Kynes`_ is now known as Kynes` 20:37:41 (format t "-------") 20:37:45 still shorter :-) 20:37:58 the last } doesn't need : 20:38:08 SBCL has an interesting implementation of outputting a bunch of consecutive ;;;s 20:38:28 I thought I could do better, because the code is a little tiny bit convoluted. But I couldn't. the convolution is fast. 20:39:24 senthil: in CL that's as much a development environment issue as an implementation issue; SLIME will give you a convenient connection between your source code and repl, and also a nice interface to the debugger. It works nicely with SBCL, CCL, Clisp, etc. 20:39:28 cool! * is also something I didnt know about... 20:39:54 clhs ~ 20:39:55 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm 20:40:10 you could read the whole thing and learn everything there is to learn 20:40:42 Vivitron: isn't SLIME emacs related? i use vim 20:41:08 slime is an extension to emacs that makes it into a really nice CL development environment. 20:41:17 are you paid to use vim? 20:41:33 you'll pretty much have to abandon vim, but there is evil mode for emacs (formerly vimpulse) which provides very complete vim emulation 20:41:36 because otherwise you can always start using Emacs and Slime 20:41:37 you won't notice the difference 20:41:47 I prefer vim to emacs a lot 20:42:00 -!- nif [~nif@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:42:02 abandon vim? :o 20:42:09 *maxm-* is running it, and I even unmapped my C-x key 20:42:30 senthil: There's a slimv for vim but I've never tried it. SLIME provides quite a bit beyond just editing 20:42:31 human brains is very plastic, you can change preferences very easy 20:42:43 sometimes one have to put away the toys of childhood, and use the tools of real men :-) 20:43:36 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:43:58 -!- helichopter [~austin@pool-96-242-43-207.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:44:04 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 20:44:14 sickle consider using Evil, vim emulator for emacs 20:44:27 emacs on training wheels 20:44:38 kennyd-: I really don't have any reason NOT to use vim 20:45:35 sickle: thing is: emacs is the best environment for open source lisp development. if you want to program in common lisp, you'll not see why lisp is great to the same extent that you'd see when using emacs and slime. 20:45:36 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:46:00 H4ns: What advantages do emacs have over viM when we're talking about lisp? 20:46:08 sickle slime 20:46:17 minion: please tell sickle about slime.mov 20:46:18 sickle: please see slime.mov: "using SLIME" video by Marco Baringer, http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov 20:47:16 sickle: slime's repl with its integrated debugger really are what makes lisp great. you can have that with one of the commercial ide's, too. not with vim, though. 20:47:39 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-80-211.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:47:52 there are some slime knockoffs for vim 20:47:58 jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-252.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:47:59 ikki [~ikki@187.193.147.125] has joined #lisp 20:48:10 sickle: well, honestly, there are one or two vim users that are so much in love with their editor that they try to get up to par with slime, but they are a small minority. 20:48:15 but i don't imagine it being as advanced as the real deal 20:48:24 I think slimv is the most advanced one. 20:48:34 stassats: "ignorance is bliss", and i share that imagination :) 20:48:48 Also, paredit. 20:48:58 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 20:49:12 well as far as I'm concerned, vimpulse is better vim then vim.. Its like vim, but if you want to change stuff, you code in elisp, whats not to love 20:49:26 rather then horrible mishmush of vim custom scripting 20:50:05 adu [~ajr@64.134.102.121] has joined #lisp 20:50:22 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C140A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:50:36 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:51:13 Hmmmmmm 20:51:52 maxm- I feel the same about Evil. out of the box, evil comes closer to vim than vimpulse though. 20:51:59 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.100.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:52:11 -!- eni [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Quit: .] 20:52:18 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:32 Can I pass something to run-program that means "extend the unix environment of parent process for the subprocess" rather than "replace the environment with exactly these things"? 20:52:48 Or is there a way to get the current environment as a list to which I can append my extra stuff? 20:52:50 kennyd-: yea I'm delaying upgrading coz really not noticed anything not working.. One thing I had fixed is :/foo/;/bar/d to delete all lines between lines contaning foo and bar, does not work 20:52:54 donno if it was fixed in evel 20:52:56 evil 20:53:35 maxm- it's not fixed in the version I'm using (which isn't the newest one). that annoyed me as well 20:55:04 kennyd-: just a sec I'll paste you a fix http://paste.lisp.org/display/128847 20:55:24 evaluate this, then test, if it works add to ~/.viper 20:55:35 thanks! it was on my todo list 20:56:27 *maxm-* should really work on publishing paredit-magic stuff 20:56:33 vimpulse guys would probably love it.. 20:56:59 imagine: any visual region, or any dd.. _Never_ breaks any parentesis, always using structural... 20:57:35 dd on last element of (let ((var))... Bam -> let disappears -> body flattened.. simularly for o, backspace, dw dc, visual mode, basically everything 20:58:09 [SLB] [~slabua@host85-170-dynamic.2-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:58:10 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host85-170-dynamic.2-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 20:58:10 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 20:58:50 how to make sbcl alloc more than 1Gb to heap ? 20:59:00 --dynamic-space-size 20:59:10 thx 20:59:43 Xach: sb-ext:posix-environ 21:01:00 stassats: thanks. 21:01:11 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:18 -!- Kron [~Kron@206.126.93.212] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 21:01:33 Kron_ [~Kron@206.126.93.212] has joined #lisp 21:04:59 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-252.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:06:37 nif [~nif@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has joined #lisp 21:08:08 -!- nif [~nif@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has quit [Remote host closed the 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that mirth is heaviness.] 21:53:16 -!- ainm [~ainm@238.Red-83-61-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 21:53:21 ainm [~ainm@238.Red-83-61-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:03 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@31.24.92.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:57:50 -!- helichopter [~austin@pool-96-242-43-207.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:58:38 -!- sickle [~Harrison@pool-108-20-196-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sickle] 21:59:25 sickle [~Harrison@pool-108-20-196-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:29 lindes [~user@p4FF1C324.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:59:36 helichopter [~austin@pool-96-242-43-207.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:40 hmm... in this thread -- http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/e06aecbdc87da7a4 -- there's an implication that one can type :sh at a CL-USER prompt and have that work... 22:01:52 Froward [~uh-oh@64.134.70.228] has joined #lisp 22:02:14 it doesn't for me, which I presume means there's some package or something to install... anyone know what that is? I'm not sure how to search for it, since google doesn't pay attention to : in my search terms 22:02:21 (and other searches have yet to find it) 22:02:24 -!- senthil [~senthil@99-51-1-6.lightspeed.snjsca.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 22:02:42 minion: please tell lindes about linedit 22:02:44 lindes: i think that is a feature of Allegro's REPL 22:02:44 lindes: please see linedit: Linedit is a portable line-editing console library for Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/linedit 22:03:31 Xach: thanks! 22:04:13 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:04:28 don't thank Xach 22:04:37 daniel [~daniel@p508298A5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:42 minion: thanks! 22:04:42 no problem 22:04:45 :-P 22:07:49 -!- daniel__ [~daniel@p508299E0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:08:23 You may thank me 22:08:33 though, I think thanking Xach is quite appropriate, since I used QL to install it just now. ;) 22:08:35 robde_ [~robde@p5085BB50.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:40 and... well, that too. :) 22:08:43 http://xach.com/lisp/linedit-screencast.gif 22:08:52 -!- robde_ [~robde@p5085BB50.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:08:56 lindes: send money Xach's way 22:09:13 stassats: I just might. 22:10:41 though... hmm... I'm still not seeing the :sh behavior... I've done linedit:install-repl... what else am I missing? 22:10:44 *stassats* hopes Xach will share some with for pitching 22:10:49 with me 22:11:06 also, screencast-as-gif... interesting. :) 22:11:37 stassats: does linedit do the :sh stuff? 22:11:38 sautygera [~Sautygera@99-189-107-40.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:59 adu [~ajr@64.134.102.121] has joined #lisp 22:11:59 lindes: what lisp do you use? 22:12:04 sbcl 22:12:10 try (require 'sb-aclrepl) 22:12:13 or at least that's what I'm using right now. 22:12:59 Xach: returns nil, :sh still doesn't work 22:13:28 lindes 22:13:33 err, lindes, works for me 22:13:41 lindes: are you using slime? 22:13:57 at the moment, yes... though I go back and forth 22:14:05 ok, linedit and sb-aclrepl won't work with slime. 22:14:13 ahh, ok 22:14:45 from non-slime, sb-aclrepl seems to give me the :sh functionality 22:14:58 Xach: the real allegro repl doesn't have :sh 22:15:03 bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:48 though adding linedit seems to break it. :-/ 22:15:59 -!- helichopter [~austin@pool-96-242-43-207.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 22:17:54 ahh, order matters. linedit then aclrepl gets me both. Yay! 22:17:59 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 22:18:11 -!- sickle is now known as sickle|afk 22:18:52 why would you need either with slime, though? 22:19:36 stassats: i wrote a library that can map through each system/release in quicklisp and start a subordinate SBCL with that system loaded and evaluate some code from a file 22:19:48 or start without it loaded, but with its name set to a cl-user special variable 22:20:01 *Xach* will share it tonight 22:20:02 well, I do sometimes like to run sbcl outside of emacs (though that may change in time), but mostly I just want the :sh functionality -- ideally, from within slime. :-/ 22:20:04 cool 22:20:38 lindes: why do you need to run shell commands from within slime? 22:20:51 can't you use eshell or something? 22:21:55 just for simple stuff so I don't leave where I'm at 22:22:14 typing :sh blah is easier than typing C-x b :) 22:22:46 do you do this so often? 22:25:15 I don't know yet... but maybe. :) 22:25:24 I'm used to living in a shell... still getting used to emacs. ;) 22:25:31 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.Red-88-11-22.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 22:26:43 -!- cabaire [~nobody@xdsl-78-35-184-110.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:27:05 lindes: How about open up an xterm and run your shell in and alt+tab. Seems easier than typing :sh 22:27:40 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 22:28:33 schmx: that's often what I do, but sometimes I want my shell to be within the context of the running process 22:30:12 to have its pwd and environment? 22:30:55 lindes: If you do it very often you can assign some quick keychord in emacs to do it. I dunno really. When I'm developing I'm usually not hitting the shell so much. I guess our workflows are different. 22:31:09 stassats: exactly 22:31:35 schmx: like I said, I'm used to living in a shell; I'm relatively new to emacs 22:31:44 lindes: sounds like some hypothetical situation 22:31:53 not something you would repeatedly do 22:32:43 and if you start eshell or term it will have the right PWD 22:32:47 *schmx* ponders getting a pole to touch this all with. 22:32:55 -!- Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:33:11 -!- adu [~ajr@64.134.102.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:33:26 stassats: maybe not repeatedly, but I was actually wanting to either find or make some utilities for changing the "pwd" (i.e. *default-pathname-defaults*) of SBCL/CL-USER/whatever, and saw that thread (linked above), and wanted that feature. :) 22:33:53 lindes: you could've asked the problem directly 22:33:58 ,cd in slime 22:34:37 stassats: heh, yes, well... one does try to figure out some things on my own. But oh yes! ,!! I just read about that earlier today, and meant to play with it... 22:35:25 stassats: thank you. Now I may never need :sh again, I dunno. ;) 22:35:42 but... at least I know how to get it (outside slime, anyway) if I ever do want it. 22:35:56 Wait what. You wanted to start a shell to change *default-pathname-defaults* ? 22:36:48 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 22:36:48 schmx: no, I was thinking of making something that would change both *default-pathname-defaults* and the process's pwd simultaneously, and wanted it to be easy to test. 22:36:59 Oh ok. 22:37:18 ,pwd to test 22:37:21 schmx: though, I can also imagine all sorts of reasons I might want to run a shell for a sec without having to go elsewhere, but... maybe those are "just hypothetical" 22:37:57 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-199-7.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:38:47 I guess I just use the eshell. 22:38:58 But whatever works. 22:39:05 "it's a nuclear war, you need to fire the missiles to retaliate, while you're busy hacking Lisp code, quick, type :sh sudo fire-nuclear-missiles" 22:39:40 the whole word might depend on your promptness 22:39:48 world 22:40:06 launching nuclear missiles? there's an app for that. 22:40:15 Well half anyway. If you don't retaliate half would survive, no? 22:40:19 stassats: see! you get it. thank you. ;) 22:40:27 hefner: there's even a specialized computer dedicated for that, the WORP. 22:40:39 I think that's the WOPR. 22:40:44 schmx: the worst half 22:41:01 nah, we'd all die... just some more slowly. 22:42:07 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@dsl-stat-43-17.mmc.at] has quit [Quit: Fullmoon] 22:42:30 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-19.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:42:38 -!- chturne [~chturne@host86-136-158-113.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:42:44 also, apparently ,cd doesn't actually change the pwd of the sbcl process. only *default-pathname-defaults*. :-/ 22:43:31 well, you have no :sh, why would you care? 22:43:33 but whatever, that solves my main problem case. :) 22:43:41 stassats: heh, touche. 22:44:06 -!- n1nt4tsn0k|1 [~nitnatsno@178.47.25.185] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 22:44:24 stassats: though there is still (run-program "/bin/pwd" '() :output *standard-output*) :) 22:44:38 I was thinking the same of schmx. 22:44:45 (and don't ask me why I chose '()) 22:45:07 adu [~ajr@64.134.102.121] has joined #lisp 22:45:17 it doesn't matter; I don't have the launch codes 22:45:27 you would say that 22:45:29 and if I did, I'd alt-tab to a real shell. ;) 22:45:31 Shaftoe [~Moe111@modemcable037.54-22-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:45:42 Why do you want to change pwd of the sbcl process anyhoo? 22:45:58 I don't trust emacs with my password, so I wouldn't run sudo from it. ;) 22:46:17 schmx: in case I need to run a shell. ;) 22:46:23 (or other sub-process) 22:46:25 is there an sbcl interface to cocoa on osx? 22:46:55 sb-alien? 22:47:17 Shaftoe: there's cl-cocoa, but I'm not sure if it supports sbcl or not, I haven't tried playing with it... yet. 22:47:41 lindes: yes, I was looking at that. 22:47:59 stassats: is Clozure CL's coacoa "thing" just that? 22:48:10 Shaftoe: hmm, http://bc.tech.coop/blog/050327.html says "not yet." ... but that's dated Sunday, March 27, 2005 22:48:41 yes, that is very old indeed. I don't know if sbcl even ran on osx back then 22:49:00 it did 22:49:08 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.104.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:49:24 that's impressive. It ran on powerpc? or the newly intel'ed osx? 22:49:41 Shaftoe: well, I've been wanting to do at least one thing that would require such a library, so if you want to work together trying to port it, I could probably throw some hours at that. 22:49:46 does it matter? it's 2012 already 22:50:02 jollyG [~JollyG@cpe-075-176-001-037.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:50:03 CampinSam [~CampinSam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:50:14 stassats: was just curious. It's a totally tangent pre-occupation 22:50:39 mwyrobek [~mwyrobek@cbd109.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 22:50:44 lindes: I might be interested in that. I just need to figure out what this clozure "thing" is. I don't even know what it claims to be just yet. 22:51:05 the "Objective-C bridge", really, is what I'm curious about. 22:51:09 Clozure is a CL implementation. It's also a company offering support and consulting. 22:51:16 I wonder if it integrates with Xcode's IB's etc. 22:51:17 (around this CL implementation). 22:52:01 pjb: Pardon the vague verbiage. By "thing" I meant the library on clozure. (http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/wiki/Cocoa) 22:52:12 Shaftoe: yeah, Obj-C bridge I imagine is the main thing... once you had the basics of that, I imagine you could do just about anything with message-passing, though I could easily see making libraries that "lispify" access to a number of things. 22:52:15 Shaftoe: i don't think it could run on Intel Macs before they switch was announced 22:54:27 Shaftoe: useful? http://ccl.clozure.com/ccl-documentation.html#The-Objective-C-Bridge 22:54:58 lindes: thanks, it is. 22:55:05 lindes: have you messed with this at all? 22:55:26 no(t yet). 22:55:39 lindes: and have you done cocoa programming proper? If this is what I hope it is, then it's much more than just a foreign interface... 22:56:17 Yes, though only a relatively small amount. 22:56:25 bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:41 A toy iPhone app, and a few other little GUI tools for myself. 22:57:22 lindes: ok, so you're a bit familiar with what makes it all tick? the KVO models etc. 22:57:38 anyhoo. reading now. 22:57:56 yeah, a bit. 22:58:09 a nice bridge could be really slick, I would imagine 22:58:40 yeah. The sample code looks slick. With nice reader macros and all 22:58:42 -!- ainm [~ainm@238.Red-83-61-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ((call/cc call/cc) (call/cc call/cc))] 22:58:48 like Golden Gate bridge? 22:59:17 heh. that's steam punk. Rivet'y more than slick =) 22:59:30 mixing the likes of KVO callbacks and lisp before/after/around methods could be fun. :) 22:59:40 the defmacro with-focused-view I see is making me get feelings of euphoria, honestly. 22:59:49 lol 23:00:11 superflit [~superflit@75-171-198-88.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:24 really, cocoa and NS are the best api I've worked with. The only downside was the language, which while "nice", isn't nearly as nimble as I'd like. 23:00:41 so having access to all the NS goodness from a lisp runtime would be heavenly. 23:00:42 *nod*, I feel that. 23:00:47 too bad Steve Jobs didn't like CL 23:00:52 well, let's try to port it. :) 23:01:05 stassats: we don't have to worry about that anymore =) 23:01:19 oh, you'll just use ccl? 23:01:21 (maybe too soon?) 23:01:31 well, he could have make Mac OS written in CL 23:01:33 sadly, ccl doesn't build for me 23:02:24 they could buy Symbolics, not NEXT 23:02:44 (via macports, anyway) 23:02:58 lindes: solution: don't use macports for ccl 23:03:04 honestly, Apple is in decay right now. Has been for a while but the momentum wasn't visible. I don't see anything nearly as revoluationary as NeXT coming out of Cupertino anytime this decade 23:03:42 lindes: http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/browser/branches/1.8-appstore/source/objc-bridge this seems to be the magic fairy dust 23:03:53 Xach: build by hand, or... ? 23:03:54 I'll settle for resolutionary. 23:04:01 to anyone in general who hacks sbcl: what do you see when you look here? http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/browser/branches/1.8-appstore/source/objc-bridge 23:04:05 dragons? 23:04:39 a see trac SVN browser 23:04:53 i see 23:05:37 some of those commit messages are a little scary. others could be nice. 23:05:43 lindes: You can get CCL through the App Store, or just download the .dmg. 23:05:45 I understand that I'm asking for a tall order, but do you see stuff that could be ported, or is that way too internal to CCL? 23:06:09 oh, you wanted us to click. ;) 23:06:10 i can't read 125 KB of text that fast 23:06:27 Damnit Jim, I'm a doctor, not a reader-macro 23:07:38 stassats: well, in any case, if you have anything to say, at all, I'd be very greatful to hear it. 23:07:53 "forget about cocoa, use commonqt" 23:08:06 that, I can't abide by. 23:08:21 Shaftoe: well, #+darwin-target doesn't seem to be set in sbcl, and I *think* that's something they're checking before setting their own features. 23:08:25 how would linux users use your wonderful apps? 23:08:25 it sounds like "install linux" 23:08:31 it does not 23:08:32 hah. 23:08:43 I guess. 23:08:48 commonqt works on mac os x, linux and windows 23:08:53 I'll quote something I like: 23:09:00 "portability is for canoes" 23:09:10 that said, I *will* actually take a look at commonqt. 23:09:21 *lindes* has been meaning to re-visit qt. I found it heinous last time I looked, but that was a *long* time ago. 23:09:21 lindes: that's not a really good observation 23:09:47 but, as I was raving on about earlier, to anyone who's actually designed interfaces using IB and Cocoa, we should be spreading that to all other platforms if anything. 23:09:47 stassats: uhh, ok. 23:09:54 #+darwin-target means it runs on Mac OS X 23:10:11 on sbcl it would look #+darwin 23:10:18 stassats: then why isn't it "true" (if I can express it that way) in sbcl? 23:10:52 ok... so you're saying maybe that could be changed to #+(or darwin-target darwin) and be fine? 23:11:14 are you trying to port it verbatim? ain't gonna happen 23:11:42 I must admit that if there's something I'm completely mystified by, it's [C|U]FFI 23:11:50 is there something I could read about that? 23:11:55 it uses ccl ffi, you're going to rewrite whole lotta stuff, just to make it work 23:12:00 I have yet to do any CL porting, so... I'm just guessing, basically. 23:12:05 Shaftoe: CFFI manual 23:12:10 C K&R 23:12:26 stassats: is CFFI the "prefered one" on sbcl? 23:12:37 -!- __main__ [~main@c-67-180-22-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:12:51 sb-alien is preferred on SBCL 23:12:54 stassats: I remember running into a library that used UFFI (or vica versa) and people here were commenting on how old hat that was. 23:12:59 ah. ok. good to know. 23:13:03 CFFI is not about preference, it's about portability 23:13:18 and UFFI? 23:13:23 not relevant? 23:13:26 if you have a beard 23:13:46 a neckbeard? 23:13:53 yes, UFFI is not relevant anywhere anymore 23:14:07 ok. I have stricken it from my memory 23:14:18 __main__ [~main@adsl-99-173-15-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:25 (unless your name start Keven and ends with Rosenberg, of course) 23:14:30 Kevin 23:14:41 ah, yes. "That thing" 23:14:47 I don't think KMR does much lisp hacking these days :( 23:14:55 I remember persons being involved in this whole debate. Anyways. Not relevant, as you say 23:15:13 -!- __main__ [~main@adsl-99-173-15-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:15:25 _main_ [~main@c-67-180-22-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:16 stassats: so you're saying that if we were to theoretically package a library for use, we'd layer it on top of sb-alien if it's only to be used on SBCL, but CFFI if we wanted to easierly port it later on? 23:16:27 right 23:16:53 is CFFI slower, harder, bigger? or is it just other? 23:16:54 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:17:03 it uses sb-alien 23:17:08 (not all sb-alien) 23:17:09 CFFI is easier to use. 23:17:16 easier. good. 23:17:36 CFFI is Common. 23:17:39 right. I assumed it used sb-alien and was an abstraction layer on top of it. 23:17:49 CFFI is the secret in the foreign-funcall sauce. 23:18:10 Shaftoe: that's it. 23:18:24 But it also use the other implementation specific FFis. 23:18:48 right. 23:19:36 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 23:19:44 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:19:47 -!- _main_ is now known as __main__ 23:20:10 ok, anc can someone explain to a hopeless plebe: is CFFI and all FFI's essentially only usable for dynamic libraries (e.g. .so files) ? or is there an actual way to "compile" static libraries into an [sb]cl image... and if so, how the heck does one do that? 23:20:18 s/anc/and/ 23:20:36 right 23:20:54 no grok question? 23:20:55 Shaftoe: sane people don't do that (compile extra code into SBCL), but I have and it works. 23:21:59 hefner: I ask because I don't think that the Objective-C runtime is as runtime'y as other things (like, say Moft's MFC) 23:22:14 (I spit on the ground at having had to utter that name... MFC) 23:22:15 -!- adu [~ajr@64.134.102.121] has quit [Quit: adu] 23:22:16 Shaftoe: you can modify SBCL's make files to link to additional libraries 23:22:34 oh lord. that sounds horrifying. Ok, I'll have to see how this all works. 23:22:51 (by, that I mean what ccl does) 23:22:53 it's not horrifying, it's C programming. 23:22:57 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 23:23:07 ah. 23:23:14 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-14-137.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:23:39 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-14-137.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:43 Shaftoe: it's just a couple of lines in the right place 23:23:44 hefner: yes, that's what we mean, it's C = horrifying. 23:23:56 hefner: it's horrifying in the sense that: if I can't simply asdf:load-op my 'cocoa-awesome package without rebuilding SBCL, I'm in for a world of pain. 23:24:15 what made you think you have to statically link to cocoa? 23:24:25 pjb: I rewrote half of Shuffletron in C++ recently, it was a thoroughly pleasant experience. You're just a big scared sissy. =p 23:24:55 stassats: because I'm not aware that cocoa works with an extensive runtime library like CLI or JVM or like MFC did with a legion of dll's 23:25:01 `C++' and `pleasant' in the same sentence? Weird. 23:25:19 Shaftoe: how do you think it works? 23:25:48 I have to brush up on how it does its magic, but I do know that Interface builder is aware of the application code via KVO 23:26:13 and that KVO boils down to a data format, kinda like json 23:26:25 blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:26:37 after that, I have a feeling that xcode actually builds from static libraries more than it does from dynamic ones. 23:26:52 the NS environment is surprisingly light. 23:26:59 you build in stuff. 23:27:25 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:27:26 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:27:40 Shaftoe: https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/CoreFoundation/Conceptual/CFBundles/AccessingaBundlesContents/AccessingaBundlesContents.html 23:27:56 (found via http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2198840/how-to-dynamically-load-class-in-objective-c ) 23:28:02 It's not surprising: it's because of dynamic late typing and it's implied genericity. 23:28:16 didi: You need to add BDSM to that sentence to make it true again. 23:28:30 oh nice. 23:28:40 one could make a bundle... hmm. 23:28:55 it is hackish, but it could just work 23:29:00 though... that's objc code to do it, and we potentially need C code, so... hmm.. 23:29:22 oh, but it's not, really... CF* should be doable, I think?? 23:29:31 obj-c is c modulo 200 hours of manual bullsh*t, perhaps =) 23:29:33 It's been a while, and I haven't exactly tried this, per se. 23:29:57 the bundle just needs to obey bundle rules, after that it's just a binary. 23:30:22 we could have a scaffholding that loads a bundle. But honestly, that path is hackish. I'd rather have the sbcl image load the proper stuff. 23:30:30 you know, TextMate did this pretty well 23:30:43 they loaded Interface Builder stuff dynamically. 23:30:47 I'm just wondering if these APIs are available without first having to have linked to some objc framework in the first place. ;) 23:30:50 maybe that's something to look at. 23:31:03 `C++ BDSM' and `plesant' in the same sentence? Weird. 23:31:04 I hear you 23:31:40 in commonqt, what am I suppose to send to a function accepting a pointer? sending # fails, so does sending pointer as int 23:31:58 stassats: finishing on my thought from earlier: you can include CoreData in your project, (which is the data equivalent of Cocoa), and it'll just give you sqlite. You'll get a sqlite implementation built into your code. 23:32:39 sezo: what function? 23:32:48 readData 23:32:58 what class is that? 23:33:24 it's in many classes, I'm trying to use one accepting QProcess 23:33:47 http://qt-project.org/doc/qt-4.8/qprocess.html#readData 23:34:12 it wants a string 23:34:15 -!- Froward [~uh-oh@64.134.70.228] has quit [Quit: even in laughter, the heart of Snorlax is sorrowful. and the end of that mirth is heaviness.] 23:35:00 char * data is a buffer it'll fill with read characters 23:35:09 sezo: bytes. 23:35:14 THere's no character in C. 23:35:30 -!- mwyrobek [~mwyrobek@cbd109.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 23:35:34 lindes: hmm. I'm fairly certain xcode builds from the SDK files. 23:35:35 only const char* is marshalled 23:36:08 sezo: well, why do you want to use qt to start external processes? 23:36:33 the #import directive being obj-c's magic bullet. It does things that C++ tried to do via templates etc. 23:36:55 stassats i've tried external-program, on windows it works just with ccl 23:37:02 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 23:37:06 Shaftoe: Hmm? which SDK? 23:37:18 I was off doing other things; I've lost context 23:37:27 "Mac OS X 10.6" 23:37:34 or iOS SDK, or whatever. 23:37:34 (or rather, not kept up with the details of the context) 23:37:45 in Xcode, when you look at the build settings, property "Base SDK" 23:37:58 stassats I take it there's no way to pass a pointer I got from cffi:foreign-alloc to readData? 23:38:01 shizzy0 [~user@c-24-91-161-73.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:03 ok... sure... 23:38:20 wrt the question of does cocoa cherry pick what it needs and builds it into your binary. 23:38:26 the answer, I think, is yes. 23:38:45 hefner: (or anyone else) is there a way to invoke the build process after the image has bootstrapped? 23:38:53 sezo: just passing a foreign-pointer should work 23:38:57 s/build process/compilation/ 23:39:07 Oh, I see what you're getting at. That true for building .so's, as well? (which I'm *guessing* is what CFFI wants... haven't gotten that far yet) 23:39:33 or are you thinking of just rebuilding sbcl? 23:39:56 Shaftoe: i know zilch about Mac OS X, but I would be pretty surprised if it requires static linking for Cocoa 23:40:04 lindes: I'd like toa void that, because if I have to resort to that, it means it becomes *part* of sbcl. Something I fear is above my level of everything.. 23:40:13 Shaftoe: I don't know what the best approach is, or if the image depends on addresses in the runtime executable, sorry. Maybe SBCL hackers are about. 23:40:18 stassats it doesn't, I'm getting this: "No applicable method readData found on # with arguments (31690128 1)" 23:40:19 lindes: I'd like to be able to call the libraries though. stuff like NSString etc. 23:40:33 hefner: thanks. 23:40:33 same if I pass a foreign pointer instead of int 23:40:51 sezo: can you paste the code? 23:40:56 ok moment 23:40:59 Shaftoe: agreed. But it seems like there's a decent chance we can get the CF* calls linked into a .so, which can then do whatever magic is needed (I hope) to load a framework dynamically. 23:41:06 lindes: also, I want to avoid having a "two binary" approach, where I have an sbcl image marshaling or talking to a obj-c built binary 23:41:11 If so, then we're golden (in principle 23:41:11 ) 23:43:11 lindes: maybe. if you "#import " and just use NSString, you aren't loading a library. 23:44:48 -!- sautygera [~Sautygera@99-189-107-40.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:45:21 Shaftoe: hmm, interesting point. Can .c and .m files live together easily if *not* doing much with objc? like, just something super basic? I'm pretty sure I've tried that, but I forget the results. (Oh, and I'm also imagining in a case not using xcode, though one could) 23:45:30 sezo: external-program appears to be working on several implementations 23:45:36 stassats http://paste.lisp.org/display/128848 23:45:41 wow, I'm so out of practice... totally failing to remember what I've tried and what not. 23:46:12 lindes: I would most definitely avoid having to use xcode for building. Although I'd like to be able to use InterfaceBuilder "natively", as that's part of the benefit of this. 23:46:29 InterfaceBuilder is the closest thing to a modern day REPL any UI library has ever made. 23:46:32 Shaftoe: can't you just read some Cocoa and ObjectiveC documentation and not to guess? 23:46:48 Shaftoe: indeed. 23:47:06 stassats yes it's suppose to work on many implementations, but out of sbcl ccl clisp lispworks, it only worked on ccl on windows. 23:47:10 stassats: I am reading documentation, I'm just punting ideas. I will take your cue though, that I'm noise'ing the channel. 23:47:20 this seminiformed guessing game won't lead you anywhere 23:48:04 sezo: what error did it give on SBCL? 23:48:44 also delete (puts buf) in above code 23:49:54 external-program gives me this: "The function SB-EXT:POSIX-ENVIRON is undefined" 23:51:04 right, sbcl on windows doesn't have it 23:51:14 take a look at another library then 23:51:24 ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-223-145.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:24 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-223-145.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:51:24 ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 23:51:29 or just run sb-ext:run-program 23:51:38 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:51:47 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt is now known as ianmcorvidae 23:52:05 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-80-211.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:52:50 I'll try. what about failing to pass pointer to a common qt functions? I guess that's a bug? 23:53:06 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.136] has joined #lisp 23:53:07 this is probably not the only time I'll need to do that 23:53:41 geek [~geek@unaffiliated/geek] has joined #lisp 23:54:36 here's the proper code if you can test: http://paste.lisp.org/display/128848#1 23:56:34 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:57:02 -!- tlw8913 [~tenorplay@nat3075.oc.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:59:06 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]