00:01:46 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:06:24 -!- Ralith [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:13:29 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 00:14:19 -!- BigHugeDog1 [~QQ@221.0.11.215] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:14:55 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-019.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Quit: Changing server] 00:23:03 SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zjpypkrydkzxfflz] has joined #lisp 00:24:58 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.67] has joined #lisp 00:30:55 -!- kanru`` [~user@61-228-146-116.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:37:02 -!- prip [~foo@host163-125-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:49:47 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:33 prip [~foo@host185-125-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 01:08:07 rme [~rme@50.43.137.11] has joined #lisp 01:09:06 -!- quazimod2 [~quazimodo@c122-107-122-25.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:19:31 -!- PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:22:21 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-210-127-194.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:07 -!- paradoja [~paradoja@acceso-cmp174-159.lpa.idec.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:23:38 -!- nialo`` [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:26:49 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:27:48 geek [~geek@unaffiliated/geek] has joined #lisp 01:28:10 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 01:30:28 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A2A42.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:31:03 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-143-169.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:31:44 -!- Jordan_U [~jordan@216.57.70.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:32:32 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-143-169.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:33:45 Jordan_U [~jordan@216.57.70.194] has joined #lisp 01:38:07 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-2-151-118.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 01:38:29 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 01:38:42 Anyone up for a code review? I've created a patch to make cl-ppcre have a new reader syntax: #/your regexp here/ 01:38:46 https://github.com/lindes/cl-ppcre/commit/4c1f7ec9162224cffef66c4b7bb49d9cd25c7f39 01:39:53 I still consider myself relatively new to lisp, so... there are all sorts of things I could be doing in poor form, or whatever; other eyes would be welcomed, before I send a pull request. Especially given that it's late where I am, and I know I sometimes like to change things after I sleep on them. :) 01:40:02 -!- geek [~geek@unaffiliated/geek] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:43:25 Note: I'll leave this window open for a little bit, but soon I'm off to bed. Comments on github are (provided they're constructive) welcome, though. 01:46:00 lindes: I think people are generally extremely hesitant to introduce new reader syntax. 01:47:11 also, you seem to be returning a string 01:47:21 Ralith: good to know... This seems like one that's being begged for though, no? 01:47:26 Yes, I'm returning a string. 01:47:33 I agree that it seems reasonable and harmles 01:47:34 s 01:47:34 Happy to hear of better options. 01:47:52 well, your TODO seems to sum it up pretty well 01:47:57 return a scanner. 01:48:06 er, the form to build a scanner 01:48:20 geek [~geek@unaffiliated/geek] has joined #lisp 01:48:51 Ahh, yeah, that'd be an easy change 01:48:58 -!- geek is now known as killown 01:49:01 -!- killown [~geek@unaffiliated/geek] has quit [Changing host] 01:49:01 killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has joined #lisp 01:49:05 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:49:10 otherwise you've created a new string syntax, not a new regex syntax. 01:49:23 and forced users who want to use it for a regex to repeat themselves 01:49:46 Well, I noticed that scan happily takes a string, so in that simple case, there's no repetition 01:49:59 but scan also happily accepts a scanner, so... probably no harm in returning one. 01:51:25 in my TODO, I was thinking of the lisp forms that are allowed as input to create-scanner 01:51:34 in place of the strings 01:52:59 but I haven't looked too closely at those yet, and my *guess* is that that would involve re-inventing the wheel with respect to parsing the string, so I figured I'd skip that. Returning a (form that creates a) scanner seems reasonable, though. I think. Unless it's somehow useful to have this? 01:53:24 (where "this" is access to the string form) 01:53:32 nialo`` [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:12 springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has joined #lisp 01:55:00 anyway, thank you for the feedback, Ralith! 01:55:17 I think that it is somewhat impolite to set the dispatch macro character when loading the library 01:55:43 Vivitron: Yeah, I was wondering about that, too. How would you suggest I approach that? 01:56:07 file compilation binds *readtable*, so that people can place a form at the top of their files which frobs it in a file local way 01:56:12 I guess I could provide a function to run this code, and allow people to run it. 01:56:58 yes, I think that is a good option 01:58:17 lindes: significantly, create-scanner (or whatever the function is) has a compiler macro that will convert strings into the lisp form. 01:58:25 (as does scan) 01:58:27 OK, so if I just wrap all this in a defun, then if they call that function at the top of a file, it would bind to the *readtable* for that file only? 01:58:59 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-2-151-118.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:54 Ralith: Yes, but then you have to do things like "\\/\\/" to match two slashes. Which, more so than being extra characters, is incompatible with (e.g.) perl's regexp syntax. So this reader allows copy/paste to work (or such is the hope). The previous becomes #/\/\// 01:59:55 You need to wrap it in an (eval-when (:execute :load-toplevel :compile-toplevel) ...set readtable...) so that the readtable is set before the file is read 02:00:36 Here's an interesting post by Kent Pitman about it https://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/d97a08bd49db2b82?dmode=source 02:01:43 Vivitron: Cool, thanks! I'll load that up in my browser, and read and apply it tomorrow. :) 02:02:11 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:03:38 (just because of the hour) 02:03:54 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-2-151-118.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:04:08 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:22 ahem 02:04:54 lindes: I meant that if you just emit the string wrapped by the correct form, a compiler macro will expand it for you. 02:06:00 thom_logn [~thom@pool-173-60-243-134.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:07 teggi [~teggi@123.21.175.173] has joined #lisp 02:06:25 OK... but which "correct form" do you mean? (create-scanner ...), or... ? 02:07:00 probably 02:07:05 check for the reader macro! 02:07:07 er 02:07:09 compiler macro 02:07:38 ``Erik_ [~erik@pool-108-3-159-149.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:10 -!- ``Erik [~erik@pool-108-3-159-149.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:09:58 lindes` [~user@p4FF1C7A7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:10:33 well, there's http://weitz.de/cl-ppcre/#create-scanner and there's http://weitz.de/cl-ppcre/#create-scanner2 -- what I don't think I want to do is get into the latter of those two. But if you just mean to add create-scanner to the form, that's pretty easy -- I'm just not certain it's actually all that useful, and so I wonder if leaving it returning the string is better (because it's easier to go forward to a scanner than back to the 02:10:33 string, AFAICT). There's also parse-string... 02:10:47 I'm not sufficiently familiar with the library to know which of these is ideal. 02:10:53 gko [~gko@111.80.171.206] has joined #lisp 02:11:53 -!- lindes [~user@p4FF1C681.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:12:21 -!- lindes` is now known as lindes 02:13:23 if you have insights into that, I'd appreciate hearing them. Otherwise, I think I'll leave it creating a string to maximize user choice. Though for the same reason, I'll also wrap it as discussed above 02:16:24 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.115.235] has joined #lisp 02:22:08 *Ralith* shrug 02:22:45 you want semantic similarity to perl, returning a string isn't going to get you it 02:26:02 so apparently now everyone has his own dcpu-16 implementation.. here's my silly hack of the day: https://gist.github.com/2316075 02:27:23 dcpu-16? 02:27:39 Ralith: isn't it? (scan #/regexp/ string) is pretty close... I don't care about having =~ or something, just that what's between / and / can be copy-pasted back and forth. 02:28:18 but since there are multiple things one might want to pass a string to, I'm starting to lean towards killing the TODO... 02:28:25 consider the semantics of storing regexps. 02:28:35 but I'm sill willing to entertain arguments that it should do, say, parse-string or something. 02:28:41 if you your syntax generates a string, then the compiler macros cannot optimize it. 02:28:55 if it generates a scanner creation form, they can. 02:29:04 regexp compilers, or lisp compilers? 02:29:09 compiler macros. 02:29:15 p_l, http://0x10c.com/ 02:29:21 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 02:29:39 lindes: are you unfamiliar with compiler macros? If so, you probably should have asked when I first mentioned their relevance. 02:30:12 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_bba.htm 02:30:16 ok... which compiler macros? I haven't created any here... (well, I have a symbol-macrolet form that creates 3 symbol-macros inside this thing, but...) 02:30:22 adeht: ... okay, that can pass for 80's 02:30:32 a symbol macro is not a compiler macro. 02:30:59 as I've said before, cl-ppcre includes compiler macros which will automatically convert strings in certain contexts to parse trees. 02:31:30 ok. I do think I have a (basic) understanding of compiler macros, but I'm not sure which scenarios you're talking about that wouldn't allow the optimization... ahh, *those* compiler macros. OK... 02:31:53 wait, like parse-string ? 02:33:31 no, that's just a defun... looking... 02:34:04 lindes: a compiler macro can take a normal function call and replace it 02:34:21 that's why it is a *compiler* macro, not a normal one 02:34:56 *lindes* thinks I might be too tired to get this right now... but trying, because I want to... 02:35:10 so, compiler macro is distinct from defmacro? 02:35:12 juls [~user@c-98-225-158-149.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:45 ahh. yes. re-reading the above link, I see that that is so... 02:35:53 -!- juls [~user@c-98-225-158-149.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:36:49 still, it'd be helpful to me to have a name of a specific example of one of the compiler macros that's being spoken of, so I can look that up and grok why returning a string blocks that. 02:37:26 lindes: basically, you attach compiler macros to symbols. One is iirc attached to create-scanner, parse-string etc. 02:37:34 also: I could imagine breaking this down into some chunks, and have a regular defun that creates the string, with other stuff wrapped around it in various ways. 02:37:40 lindes: it checks if the regexp passed to it is a literal 02:38:15 if it is a literal, it creates the parsing object at compile time, replacing the call to create-scanner/parse-string with result 02:38:58 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:39:23 -!- moxiemk1 [~moxiemk1@c-67-172-17-89.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:39:56 ahhhhh, ok. that's starting to make sense. 02:40:25 is there a way, though, that I could get the string I generate to be treated as a literal? (Perhaps with my own compiler macro?) 02:41:26 lindes: if you're generating it later than during compile time, it's not a literal. However, reader-macros will be already expanded 02:41:46 as well as macros, I think, but I'd suggest to look it up in CLHS 02:42:48 well, given that I'm writing a reader macro, I would hope that it's possible for me to somehow create something that's considered to be a literal. 02:43:02 yeah, I'll do some digging... in Graham, CLHS, and/or whatever I can find. 02:43:25 thank you, p_l and Ralith. 02:46:33 lindes: reader macro expansion happens before compiler gets the data 02:48:12 exactly. hence why I would hope that there's some way for me to make the string into (something that's treated like) a literal. 02:50:01 lindes: you're already doing that 02:50:11 FWIW, in my current code, (constantp #/test/) returns T 02:50:27 precisely 02:50:55 (note that while you *are* returning a string, you don't need to quote it) 02:50:57 OK... so... what's missing? (Besides the read-table wrapping part, which I understand the need for, and just need to take more time to figure out how to properly do) 02:51:02 (string literals are self-evaluating) 02:51:13 the quote is so that it's not treated as a function 02:51:23 string literals are not treated as functions. 02:51:31 in reader macros they seem to be... 02:51:40 unless I'm doing something wrong 02:51:55 AFAICT, though, the compiler never sees the quote 02:52:22 string literals are not treated as functions, so you probably were doing something wrong. 02:52:23 -!- lakatos [~lakatos@c3.uaic.ro] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:52:27 (certainly it doesn't show up at the repl) 02:53:09 try entering '"foo" in the repl 02:53:15 perhaps. It's how it seems to have been done here: http://www.bookshelf.jp/texi/onlisp/onlisp_18.html -- look for nreverse accum 02:53:37 what is the type of accum? 02:53:54 I dunno if it's a dispatch-macro thing, or what, but it seems to be required. Anyway, it certainly gave me problems when I didn't have it. :) 02:53:59 it is not required. 02:54:03 it's just a list (of character literals) 02:54:08 Yuuhi``` [benni@p54839276.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:10 good 02:54:14 now what is the type of a string literal? 02:55:13 (type-of is a function) 02:55:19 oh, yeah, I guess I can get rid of "(list 'quote"... having list required quote, but with neither, I'm OK. 02:55:29 ^^ 02:55:38 -!- Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483A2B8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:56:22 but, as discussed, you may want to return a create-scanner form instead 02:56:31 (which also should not be quoted, since you *want* it to look like a function call) 02:56:57 the thing with that is, that I imagine the caller may want to use create-scanner, or they may want to use parse-string, or... 02:57:15 (right?) 02:58:18 I'm not aware of any use-cases for a macro literal that would not be best served by returning a scanner object. 02:58:44 vmmenon [~vmmenon@CPE-124-178-50-181.lns2.pie.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 02:59:24 well, is it possible to get the same thing as parse-string's return value if I do that? 02:59:30 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-143-169.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:59:38 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-143-169.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:00:00 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-154-75.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:00:23 I don't know. Do you need to? 03:01:02 I imagine someone might want to... if only to be able to learn how to create an s-exp tree of their own, in other code 03:01:08 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-154-75.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:01:37 generally one creates sexp trees with cons, or by quoting literals. 03:01:42 see http://weitz.de/cl-ppcre/#create-scanner2 for info about what the parse trees look like 03:02:17 ok, but can you get a tree if I create a scanner? If not, then it seems like I'm doing the user a dis-service by not giving them flexibility to do what they want. 03:02:57 and I don't see what it's costing them, really -- the compiler macros should already take any string literal that I return and do what you're talking about anyway, no? 03:03:01 I believe in prioritizing actual usecases over imaginary ones, but it's your code. 03:03:18 I already explained cases where it makes a difference. 03:03:44 (such as, again, when the result of the reader macro is stored in a variable, or passed to a non-ppcre function) 03:03:47 but ... didn't we decide that in those cases, what I'm doing now will still allow the compiler macros to do their thing? 03:04:01 no. Reader macros cannot cover all of those cases. 03:04:22 I expect you'd need to solve the halting problem to do that. 03:04:44 so, if a user says: (scan #/foo/ bar), doesn't the compiler-macro for scan still get called and optimize that? 03:04:57 that is the trivial case. 03:05:07 the nontrivial cases, which I've mentioned a few times now, cannot be detected. 03:05:33 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-154-75.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:05:35 ok, well I'll capture this and review it when I'm less tired. Again, thank you. Your input is definitely appreciated. 03:05:43 good night. (Or whatever it is where you are.) 03:05:48 g'night 03:06:32 captured. 03:07:16 -!- lindes [~user@p4FF1C7A7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:13:22 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:14:09 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 03:14:20 saschakb_ [~saschakb@p4FEA0BE3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 03:14:37 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Client Quit] 03:16:07 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 03:17:31 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0BC2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:18:31 You can build a tree from a scan, surely? 03:20:09 Just a question of how you fold it. 03:24:11 kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 03:27:47 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:31:56 scombinator [~user@121-73-59-25.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:07 sizz [~customIRC@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:14 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:06 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:39:23 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:39:30 -!- springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:42:38 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:43:55 -!- quazimod1 [~quazimodo@c122-107-122-25.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:57:37 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-80-89.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:58:50 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.94.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:59:13 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.227] has joined #lisp 04:00:33 -!- benny [~benny@i577A7E0B.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:00:57 kwmiebach_ [kwmiebach@vps-6813.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 04:03:28 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:03:30 -!- SpitfireWP [~spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:03:49 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 04:03:51 -!- kwmiebach [kwmiebach@vps-6813.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:04:35 slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-161-110.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:36 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-154-75.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:08:03 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-154-75.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:08:20 SpitfireWP [~spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 04:09:05 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@c-65-96-162-9.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:30 evening 04:09:41 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@c-65-96-162-9.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:11:06 lakatos [~lakatos@c3.uaic.ro] has joined #lisp 04:12:03 hba [~hba@187.136.122.15] has joined #lisp 04:13:04 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-154-75.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:14:34 -!- gko [~gko@111.80.171.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:17:07 -!- lakatos [~lakatos@c3.uaic.ro] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:17:13 springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has joined #lisp 04:18:27 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-80-89.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:23:45 sty_ [~quassel@dsl-173-248-200-188.acanac.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:49 is there a library that will let me read or write from shell pipes? 04:29:27 libtee ? 04:29:29 lol 04:30:03 There is nothing special about shell pipes. 04:30:10 shell pipes are just standard streams 04:31:58 Maybe you want a fifo? 04:36:07 superflit_ [~superflit@75-171-248-45.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:22 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.4.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:38:22 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 04:39:18 I can't seem to figure out how to make a stream out of a pipe. Do I need to use run-program? 04:40:19 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-5-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:40:52 -!- scombinator [~user@121-73-59-25.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:41:06 scombinator [~user@121-73-59-25.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 04:43:42 sigjuice: what do you mean when you say pipe? 04:44:01 this is not a pipe 04:45:10 -!- sizz [~customIRC@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 04:46:17 I want to spawn an external program and write to its standard input 04:48:32 See run-program, probably. 04:49:46 And sb-ext:process-input 04:51:07 Reading the documentation :input should be clear. 04:51:42 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 04:51:57 You'll probably need a gray-stream, which can be read from. 04:52:38 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 04:54:13 -!- gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:56:32 gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has joined #lisp 04:58:55 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 05:04:05 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.80.106] has joined #lisp 05:04:05 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.80.106] has quit [Changing host] 05:04:05 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 05:04:26 -!- gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:06:22 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.137.11] has left #lisp 05:07:18 -!- killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 05:08:16 -!- lebro [~monx@ool-18bc4a28.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:10:30 gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has joined #lisp 05:16:59 -!- gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:19:07 Zhivago: thanks! I think I figured out how to use external-program:run instead. 05:19:20 Excellent. 05:20:30 gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has joined #lisp 05:21:18 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 05:25:58 -!- gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:26:11 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 05:27:15 Is there a way to efficiently access subvectors of a multidimensional array? E.g., suppose one wanted to use a 2d array as a matrix and to access a row of it as a 1-dimensional vector, and also to access a column of it as a 1-dimensional vector? 05:28:23 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 05:28:24 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-189-75.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:28:33 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:36:06 -!- morenoh149 [~harry@morenoh149.res.wpi.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:39:21 -!- hba [~hba@187.136.122.15] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:40:07 leo2007 [~leo@114.247.10.71] has joined #lisp 05:53:03 pnathan: yes 05:55:53 -!- EyesIsServer [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:06:05 egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@248-99-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 06:06:09 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@121.11.118.133] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:06:28 -!- egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@248-99-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:07:20 kornshell` [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/skulls] has joined #lisp 06:07:27 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-5-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 06:07:51 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 06:10:34 EyesIsServer [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 06:15:47 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 06:16:48 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:21:09 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:24:31 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-14-2.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:28:16 What's the best solution if I want to connect a second process to swank, and get an (inspect-in-frame) result there? 06:28:36 Ie. connection 1 goes into SLDB, and connection 2 wants to run the corresponding (inspect-in-frame)? 06:29:20 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:29:52 (eval-in-frame) is implementation dependent, and eg. in sbcl uses a locally-bound *sldb-stack-top* ... so I'd have to patch that over somehow. 06:29:56 Any better ideas? 06:30:08 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 06:30:10 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:32:47 -!- MrBusiness [~MrBusines@184.99.7.19] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:36:32 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 06:36:45 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.12.24] has joined #lisp 06:36:46 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.12.24] has quit [Changing host] 06:36:46 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 06:36:49 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 06:37:35 gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 06:37:54 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 06:42:26 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.115.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:43:10 why do you want to do this? 06:44:20 DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-14-2.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 06:46:34 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:48:36 BigHugeDog [~QQ@221.0.11.215] has joined #lisp 06:49:49 mcox [~user@203-206-28-125.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 06:50:13 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@206.126.93.212] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 06:52:18 stassats: to get a new X11 window with the inspect data that I can move around and even send (via xpra) to other people 06:53:23 stlifey [~stlifey@121.11.118.133] has joined #lisp 06:55:39 why do you need a second connection? 06:57:07 because a second process should use its own TCP connection and not share the same because that will give conflicts? 06:57:19 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.104.38] has joined #lisp 06:57:29 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:57:50 what conflicts? 06:57:54 flip214: why do you want a second process? 06:58:07 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-96-253-85-90.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:58:14 just open another window. 06:58:46 ebobby [~fms@50-0-172-141.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 06:59:23 I need a second process so that I have some flexibility. If I start that via xpra, I can eg. send this process with its window to other people. 07:00:03 but now you want two processes to share the same debugger, how do you expect this to work? 07:00:14 stassats: having two processes that use the same socket filehandle leads to conflicts, as they can't know which answer belongs to whom. 07:00:36 what do you mean "two processes"? 07:00:43 rathar, by processes 07:00:47 there's only a single lisp process in the background - so most of the data is shared anyway. 07:00:49 egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@136-132-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 07:01:04 look, I'll try again. 07:01:14 ok 07:01:19 normally there's a lisp process running swank, and an editor connecting to it via TCP. ok? 07:01:30 ok 07:01:48 having a second connection to the lisp is not a problem - two or more people can work simultaneously. 07:02:13 i would say it's a problem, but let's imagine it's not 07:02:24 now I just want to ask for a (portable?) way to share the sldb information between the users. 07:02:45 eg. I get an error, and want a co-developer to look at the stack trace etc. 07:03:20 no can do 07:03:30 and you cannot use tmux or screen to share the session, and neither can you use emacs' multi-screen session support, right? 07:03:42 or one of the x sharing solutions, or vnc? 07:03:43 -!- egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@136-132-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has left #lisp 07:03:46 or emacsclient from a remote host 07:04:01 working on the same image sound suspicious, there can be all sorts of conflicts 07:04:21 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:04:50 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:05:14 and even if there were no conflicts, i don't see any benefits 07:05:28 sn0rri [~sn0rri@62.169.219.149] has joined #lisp 07:05:46 this is just a simplified example for explaining. no, screen or tmux or vnc don't help. 07:06:03 it's about having a connection get the sldb state of another. 07:06:09 the whole idea is bogus 07:06:51 (having two connections used by different people simultaneously, that is) 07:06:52 oh, thank you for not understanding what it's about and discerning it anyway 07:07:46 well, my use-case is for a single person anyway - I want to connect a second unix process, with its own X11 window, to display the stack. 07:08:06 i said, you can't do that, is it not enough? 07:08:19 sending the X11 window to other people is then just an optional extra, by starting the process in xpra or vncserver 07:08:58 -!- ebobby [~fms@50-0-172-141.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:09:01 something1112 [~something@5ad4d824.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 07:09:36 -!- something1112 [~something@5ad4d824.bb.sky.com] has quit [Client Quit] 07:10:05 flip214: why not use the existing emacs process with two X11 windows? 07:10:18 because it's not about emacs 07:10:55 no one seems to understand what you want 07:11:01 and if I did, the two X11 windows would be from the same process, so I couldn't split one in a different X11 session 07:11:17 yeah, my idea might be too specific 07:12:19 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:12:58 kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 07:13:02 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@121.11.118.133] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:13:04 emacsclient is entirely capable of operating across multiple X11 sessions. 07:13:12 trivially, even. 07:13:19 Ralith: he cannot use emacs 07:13:26 oh dear 07:13:29 that must suck 07:16:54 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 07:18:17 egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@136-132-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:07 -!- schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:19:28 schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 07:25:33 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75c330.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:25:50 -!- egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@136-132-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:25:56 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 07:29:41 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 07:31:59 bjonnh [~bjonnh@147.210.71.83] has joined #lisp 07:32:32 add^_ [~add^_^@m90-141-49-231.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 07:33:32 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:34:57 metaphysician [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 07:36:09 -!- thom_logn [~thom@pool-173-60-243-134.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:36:43 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:40:26 sacho [~sacho@92-247-208-87.spectrumnet.bg] has joined #lisp 07:41:24 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 07:43:43 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 07:45:33 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m90-141-49-231.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 07:46:35 stlifey [~stlifey@121.11.118.133] has joined #lisp 07:47:01 -!- Blkt` [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:48:20 benny` [~benny@i577A7CD2.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:48:40 -!- benny` is now known as benny 07:51:30 -!- bbirec [~bbirec@119.202.82.67] has quit [Quit: bbirec] 07:54:11 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 07:54:29 albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #lisp 07:56:57 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-154-133.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: also sleep] 07:58:36 lambda_zero_cool [~james@cpe-76-171-236-105.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:58:44 how noob friendly is this channel? xD 07:59:12 <|3b|> depends on the noob 07:59:25 <|3b|> (and who is awake at the time) 07:59:26 depends on your noobility 07:59:50 it's not the noobness that's problematic here, but stupidity 08:00:56 :). hopefully, i'm not stupid. i'm looking for help with a specific funcall thing i'm not understanding 08:01:48 Montresor [~Montresor@fsf/member/montresor] has joined #lisp 08:02:03 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 08:02:03 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:02:09 -!- Montresor [~Montresor@fsf/member/montresor] has left #lisp 08:02:55 <|3b|> (and for the record, asking questions about wanting to ask a question rather than just asking the question is one of the things the channel has a problem with) 08:04:24 http://paste.lisp.org/display/128793 <-- gives my error message. i'm trying to modify entries in a list, as an extension of this: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-a-simple-database.html 08:04:54 i'm not sure why funcall does not evaluate this anonymous function 08:05:06 lambda_zero_cool: you want (FUNCALL (LAMBDA (CD) ... 08:05:16 #< ...> is the print output of an unprintable object 08:05:17 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 08:05:18 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:05:35 lambda_zero_cool: post your code in addition to the error message. 08:06:45 Ralith: annotated the program onto the paste 08:06:58 <|3b|> `#' ? 08:07:50 flip214: so it would appear i lack a parentheses? 08:08:03 lambda_zero_cool: ignore flip214. 08:08:14 he was confused. 08:08:26 lambda_zero_cool: the problem is your use of backquote. 08:08:36 closures are not macros. 08:09:00 <|3b|> lambda_zero_cool: note that the original example used `#'(lambda ...) in a macro, not a function 08:09:57 -!- leo2007 [~leo@114.247.10.71] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:09:58 i see, so eliminate the backquote and make changes accordingly? 08:10:19 ` and , and ,@ 08:11:06 <|3b|> or pull the part using backquote back into a macro can call that macro there 08:12:50 <|3b|> actually, i guess you can't write that function like that either way 08:12:56 oh i see, since make-comparison-list and make-comparison-expr are only called within a macro, you can get away with backquotes 08:13:54 even though they are in defun not defmacro 08:13:59 nikodemus [~nikodemus@188-67-156-31.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 08:14:03 not at all 08:15:20 backquote syntax can be used anywhere; and macros can be written without using backquote 08:15:20 backquotes are just another kind of syntax for literals 08:15:54 literals? 08:17:46 okay, that makes sense. i suppose i should learn more about closures and macros to get to the bottom of this 08:18:05 `(foo ,@'(bar baz)) is the same as (list* 'foo '(bar baz)), for instance 08:18:11 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 08:18:53 clhs 2.4.6 08:18:53 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for 2.4.6. 08:19:21 as since backquotes just express literals, i'm not sure quite what the issue is. it appears to be expanding fine to my noobish eye. 08:19:26 lambda_zero_cool: http://l1sp.org/cl/2.4.6 08:20:34 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:20:50 -!- saschakb_ [~saschakb@p4FEA0BE3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:21:18 lambda_zero_cool: things that have changing parts don't really feel like being literals 08:21:20 lambda_zero_cool: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_l.htm#literal 08:21:38 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-27-220.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:21:53 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:21:59 lambda_zero_cool: lists are not functions. 08:22:03 <|3b|> lambda_zero_cool: (lambda ...) evaluates to a function, `(lambada ...) evaluates to a list starting with the symbol LAMBDA 08:22:46 gilligan_ [~gilligan_@2.210.172.34] has joined #lisp 08:23:30 Ralith: got that, |3b|: i get this jist of anonymous functions, jdz: then does this tie to what i said earlier, regarding how the other examples are macro'd? 08:23:49 <|3b|> #'(lambda ...) is a reader shortcut for (function (lambda ...)) which also evaluates to a function, `#'(lambda ...) reads as `(function (lambda ...)) which evaluates to a list starting with the symbol FUNCTION 08:23:54 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:23:59 EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 08:24:19 strange... 08:24:41 hi 08:25:19 And (function ...) is a special form that gets you a function. 08:25:26 |3b| OH. DUH. okay, thank you! 08:26:25 |3b|++ 08:26:32 jdz++ 08:26:54 Ralith++ 08:27:08 <|3b|> `#'(lambda ...) works in the macro because the macro returns code to be further evaluated, so when it expands to the list (function (lambda ...)), that gets evaluated to produce a function 08:27:09 clhs 2.4.6 08:27:09 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm 08:27:14 that's better 08:27:26 dan64- [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 08:27:41 yes, this all makes sense now. thanks a million! 08:28:31 stassats: awesome, thanks! 08:29:25 snearch [~snearch@f053015146.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:30:08 jdz, and if you haven't already you need to get 'practical common lisp' or 'land of lisp' or 'ansi common lisp' to learn from. All 3 good books :) 08:30:47 only the first one is good 08:31:23 i'm 3 chapters through practical common lisp, it's pretty amazing so far. 08:31:26 i like all of them 08:31:36 gilligan_: thanks for the pointers, i'll sure go read the books now instead of dispensing my advice here. 08:32:23 -!- lambda_zero_cool [~james@cpe-76-171-236-105.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:32:24 leo2007 [~leo@114.247.10.71] has joined #lisp 08:32:31 imho 'ansi common lisp' does a better job at conveying the necessary basic language features before dwelling too much into macro programming and the like 08:32:47 'land of lisp' is fun to read but somewhat unstructured 08:33:58 'let over lambda' is supposed to be pretty good but that is certainly not an entry level book 08:34:14 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:34:15 supposed? by the author? 08:34:48 Ansi CL is somewhat idiosyncratic, but good nonetheless 08:35:07 supposed by gilligan_, it would seem 08:35:22 wow you guys are a friendly crowd 08:35:39 gilligan_: we are toxic, deal with it 08:35:40 CLTL2 is probably the best of them all, but describes a somewhat different language. 08:36:09 gilligan_: we need more less toxic people 08:36:22 s/deal/ignore 08:36:26 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053015146.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 08:36:29 gilligan_: hey, there's nothing wrong with supposing that it's good 08:36:34 I have no idea what quality that book is! 08:36:37 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:36:44 Perhaps what is needed are people with better critical skills. :) 08:37:05 Ralith: the description is "is one of the most hardcore computer programming books out there." 08:37:10 Ralith: must be pretty good! 08:37:21 "the" description? 08:37:26 as in, on the title page or something? 08:37:33 Ralith: http://letoverlambda.com/ 08:37:43 hah 08:37:56 "This book is about pushing the boundaries of what we know about programming." 08:38:03 be afraid 08:38:10 curious.. anyone here using something other than emacs or vim+slimv for lisp programming ? like LispWorks or whatever 08:38:22 gilligan_: some are 08:39:12 well the book has some marketing bollocks going with it yes 08:39:12 i give you that 08:39:12 :) 08:39:45 the fact that its pushed in a tabloid writing way is not helping 08:40:01 ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-116-074.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:40:10 gilligan: Does your writing way help? 08:40:19 gilligan_: there are some reviews out there 08:40:46 Zhivago, excuse me ? 08:41:50 gilligan: Does sloppy writing help? 08:43:45 Zhivago, i see..you are another one of the toxic persons in here 08:43:45 minion: chant 08:43:45 MORE LESS 08:44:36 gilligan: Would you prefer me to enable your defects so that they become progressively worse? 08:49:45 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:50:45 -!- gilligan_ [~gilligan_@2.210.172.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:51:59 Zhivago isn't actively toxic. he just likes accuracy and sarcasm 08:52:51 two- [~textual@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:54:39 gilligan_ [~gilligan_@46.115.23.105] has joined #lisp 08:54:52 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has joined #lisp 08:55:02 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:55:10 meh, crappy connection 08:55:29 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:57:13 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.Red-88-11-22.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:00:13 seems like less sarcasm and more uncompromising harshness 09:00:17 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:00:39 generally highly informative nonetheless, though. 09:03:13 the uncompromising harshness is what i called liking accuracy :) 09:04:21 ehu [~ehuels@46.44.153.152] has joined #lisp 09:04:54 people just feel the urge to respond and then it gets worse 09:08:24 Zhivago would make a good academic. Accuracy is at least for theoretical Computer Science required 09:09:35 Neronus: as opposed to practical "computer science", where accuracy is not required? 09:09:49 *|3b|* should track slime better so i don't have some many random changes to deal with at once :p 09:10:07 -!- gilligan_ [~gilligan_@46.115.23.105] has left #lisp 09:10:09 being accurate and being nice is not a contradiction 09:10:11 gilligan_ [~gilligan_@46.115.23.105] has joined #lisp 09:11:35 "sorry to inform you, but you're wrong" 09:11:58 jdz: Point taken :) 09:12:25 -!- dryman [~dryman@OpenISDM.iis.sinica.edu.tw] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:12:31 Actually, mistakes in program are more likely to be discovered by people running my programs than by people reading my papers 09:13:17 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-189-75.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:13:20 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 09:13:27 stassats: that is one way. Not the only one. Saying "that is not correct", or "that is wrong" is still nice. "You are an idiot if you believe crap like that" is simply rude, and rarely appropriate 09:13:59 prxq: good, now you know what not to say 09:14:32 stassats: actually, that was for you 09:15:25 oh yeah? let me decide what to say myself 09:15:30 -!- sty_ [~quassel@dsl-173-248-200-188.acanac.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:16:09 stassats: your attitude is intoxicating me! 09:16:30 gosh, what's up with people not discussing CL but constantly complaining? 09:17:27 is it spring or something? 09:18:00 dryman [~dryman@OpenISDM.iis.sinica.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 09:18:45 stassats: I blame you. 09:18:47 sykopomp: Did you work on codeneeded? 09:19:06 Zhivago: ok 09:20:37 lindes [~user@p4FF1C7A7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:20:40 -!- schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:21:19 schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 09:25:28 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-14-2.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 09:26:07 -!- drdo [~drdo@roach0.drdo.eu] has quit [Quit: I'm finished!] 09:26:10 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:26:34 which is the current state of the art vim interface to swank, and where does it live? 09:26:58 people often talk about slimv 09:27:06 minion: slimv? 09:27:07 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``slimv''. 09:27:10 minion: vim? 09:27:10 vim: The Vi family of editors (with vim probably being the most frequently used implementation) is almost universally "the other editor" to Emacs. http://www.cliki.net/vim 09:27:26 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:27:59 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.168.134] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:28:17 thanks 09:29:13 -!- albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:30:47 in other news: nikodemus switching to Vim for his daily lisping 09:31:08 charged with heresy 09:31:33 updating nikodemus-cl-faq.txt :) 09:32:24 too late... 09:32:45 nikodemus: slimv is actively developed, so it seems to be the best bet 09:32:54 gffa [~unknown@524895DD.cm-4-1c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 09:32:56 flip214: do you use it? 09:33:00 yes 09:33:10 i wonder who's the maintainer/author... 09:33:16 flip214: does it have an inspector? 09:33:24 look at the slimv page, you'll find Tamás 09:33:28 yes, it does 09:33:34 interesting 09:33:42 -!- gffa [~unknown@524895DD.cm-4-1c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Changing host] 09:33:42 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 09:33:54 sldb, too 09:34:06 I've got local patches to make it work with swankr, too 09:36:09 that's what I've been talking about today ... I'd like to open a new gvim window to inspect stack traces in 09:37:18 gvim can't have several windows? 09:37:48 gvim has several windows _internally_, I want to open new gvim instances on (perhaps) different X11 displays 09:37:51 drdo [~drdo@roach0.drdo.eu] has joined #lisp 09:38:06 ie. "gvim windows" => parts of an X11 window 09:38:23 you can do it, rewrite swank 09:38:48 -!- drdo [~drdo@roach0.drdo.eu] has quit [Client Quit] 09:38:59 yes, that might be necessary 09:39:12 it is 09:39:34 I personally never use the windowing features of [g]vim. screen does a better job, imho. 09:40:16 Zhivago: I like to have a vertical split, with two sources or a source and the repl 09:41:12 I've managed to get normal inspect data in external windows (as this is not sldb-specific), ie. simple, globally bound special variables can be easily inspected via a second swank connection 09:41:21 now I want to extend that to frame-data 09:42:39 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:44:09 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:45:10 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:45:38 -!- CrazyEddy [~nephelome@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:46:02 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 09:46:34 flip214: would that work with text vim in its :split frames? 09:46:37 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 09:46:37 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:46:42 (or does it) 09:46:58 slimv can be configured to use vertical or horizontal splits. 09:47:05 ok 09:47:08 -!- ehu [~ehuels@46.44.153.152] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:47:14 and then you can inspect frame-data (as it's the same tcp connection to swank) 09:47:33 I'd like to make that work with seperate swank connections 09:47:41 ok yes the multiple windows, potentially on multiple displays would indeed be more complex then 09:48:04 what bizarre things people do just not to use emacs... 09:48:05 well, as I said ... "global" data in the lisp image is not a problem 09:48:30 drdo [~drdo@roach0.drdo.eu] has joined #lisp 09:49:39 -!- vmmenon [~vmmenon@CPE-124-178-50-181.lns2.pie.bigpond.net.au] has left #lisp 09:52:16 -!- gilligan_ [~gilligan_@46.115.23.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:55:09 -!- __main__ [~main@c-67-180-22-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:56:09 gilligan_ [~gilligan_@46.115.23.105] has joined #lisp 09:56:25 __main__ [~main@adsl-99-173-15-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:57:21 -!- __main__ [~main@adsl-99-173-15-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:58:02 <|3b|> stassats: i suspect a lot of people would feel the same about our efforts to not use php,java,python, etc :) 09:58:03 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-19.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:58:22 __main__ [~main@c-67-180-22-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:58:28 -!- leo2007 [~leo@114.247.10.71] has quit [Quit: sleep] 09:58:32 not using something takes effort?+ 09:58:50 |3b|: i wouldn't call "being sane" bizarre 10:16:18 -!- gilligan_ [~gilligan_@46.115.23.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:17:54 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 12.0/20120328051619]] 10:21:10 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:22:13 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:27:26 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 10:28:32 asvil [~asvil@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 10:28:40 -!- howeyc [~howeyc@2607:f2f8:a958::2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:29:30 howeyc [~howeyc@2607:f2f8:a958::2] has joined #lisp 10:33:56 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 10:35:06 -!- sn0rri [~sn0rri@62.169.219.149] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 10:35:09 -!- springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 10:35:31 hagish [~hagish@p5DCBF608.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:45:28 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-19.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:48:25 -!- schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:48:55 schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 10:49:41 -!- MoALTz [~no@87.112.232.227] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:50:08 MoALTz [~no@87.112.232.227] has joined #lisp 10:53:27 gilligan_ [~gilligan_@80.187.201.77] has joined #lisp 10:55:52 bbirec [~bbirec@MDOM4209-2.postech.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 10:57:27 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 10:58:17 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 11:02:40 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.12.24] has joined #lisp 11:02:40 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.12.24] has quit [Changing host] 11:02:40 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 11:05:00 nha [~prefect@dhcp-15-224.math.tu-berlin.de] has joined #lisp 11:05:43 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:07:06 jollyG [~JollyG@KennPAT.uncc.edu] has joined #lisp 11:07:20 updated: http://random-state.net/files/nikodemus-cl-faq.txt 11:08:03 nikodemus: assesments should be assessments, right? 11:08:30 sn0rri [~sn0rri@62.169.219.149] has joined #lisp 11:10:12 you're right, thanks 11:11:12 at least 3 times in the text 11:11:23 yeah, i thought it spelled like that :) 11:11:32 nikodemus: adaquately => adequately 11:12:45 Commerical => commercial, unless you meant comical ;) 11:12:49 -!- metaphysician [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Quit: metaphysician] 11:12:53 choise => choice 11:13:09 oops 11:13:11 "and and newbie-questions" 11:13:21 maybe i should turn on spellcheck in emacs... 11:13:21 in vim use ":set spell" ;) 11:13:31 nikodemus: i can recommend flyspell :-) 11:13:40 in a real editor, use M-x flyspell-buffer 11:13:47 abbreviavated => abbreviated 11:13:54 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:14:05 athropied => athrophied ? 11:14:21 atrophied 11:14:21 thanks for mentioning slimv 11:15:43 mcclim is on the top, is it to put people away from lisp? 11:16:03 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:17:16 -!- bbirec [~bbirec@MDOM4209-2.postech.ac.kr] has quit [Quit: bbirec] 11:17:26 what order should i put the guis? is there one i'm missing? 11:18:10 alphabetical? i don't know 11:18:30 i'd suggest ltk on top, as it is the most likely to work at once. 11:19:00 it has a dependency 11:19:22 i expect mcclim to work at once on linux more than ltk 11:19:33 as much as mcclim can work 11:19:35 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 11:20:07 it's the only one of the bunch i've actually used... 11:20:16 but expect people would want either Qt or GTK+ 11:20:21 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:20:34 i do 11:20:51 what's the GTK+ library that's expected to work these days? 11:21:10 minion: gtk? 11:21:11 gtk: Gtk (GTK+) is a Graphics Toolkit written in C, primarily developed for use with the X Window System. http://www.cliki.net/gtk 11:21:41 -!- gilligan_ [~gilligan_@80.187.201.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:21:46 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 11:23:42 but overall i have an impression that there's a low demand for GUIs in Lisp 11:23:52 maybe because none is perfect 11:24:26 common-qt is said to be good? 11:24:34 it is 11:24:40 and it's spelled commonqt 11:24:48 oh, ok:) 11:24:49 but it's not perfect 11:25:56 has somebody seen http://vimeo.com/36579366, btw? 11:26:18 no, the speaker makes it unwatchable 11:27:03 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 11:27:39 nikodemus: if "these days" includes about a year ago it could be cl-gtk2 11:29:15 aerique: is it in usable shape? 11:30:05 nikodemus: last time i used it was about a year ago and it was definitely usable, although some API choice the author made wouldn't have been mine 11:30:57 what about CLG? 11:31:24 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:31:28 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.67] has left #lisp 11:32:36 # 11:32:38 nikodemus: when i was checking out GTK packages for CL a couple of years back I chose cl-gtk2 because I got it working quickly as opposed to the others, however that doesn't really mean much 11:33:01 so my only experience is really with cl-gtk2 11:34:55 does it provide a complete experience? i.e. can you write something usable and just hello-worlds? 11:34:57 stassats: Personally, I have difficulty justifying any interface other than html5, these days. 11:35:01 *Xach* adds l1sp.org/faq 11:35:06 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 11:35:49 Zhivago: multitude of browsers doesn't impress me 11:36:07 stassats: these are old projects but: http://www.aerique.net/software/okra-gtk-demo/ and https://github.com/aerique/clysma 11:36:21 stassats: i'd say these aren't complete but a step above hello world 11:36:51 rewrote the gui section 11:36:52 better? 11:36:53 looks like something usable would look 11:36:58 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 11:38:03 nikodemus: looks better 11:38:14 nikodemus: i haven't looked for it but if it doesn't exist a html version of the faq would be nice (the txt can be converted to org easily) so we could point someone straight to f.e. (2) of "are there any common pitfalls..." 11:39:09 yeah, and clicking on links is hard in .txt 11:39:39 stassats: get a better editor ;) 11:40:20 i was reading it in a web-browser 11:40:25 ah yeah, lispforum.com... haven't been there in years 11:40:26 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:40:47 i used to have a txt->html conversion written specifically for the faq, but i've misplaced it 11:42:38 maybe next week... 11:43:49 -!- ZombieChicken [~none@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:43:54 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:45:25 nikodemus: What about common lisp the language 2ed by Guy Steele, I found it a little bit useful than clhs. 11:45:52 I mean links to book in your faq 11:48:39 nikodemus: FIY, the http://www.paragent.com/lisp/cusp/cusp.htm link in your CL-faq is stale. Current home seems to be: http://bitfauna.com/projects/cusp/. 11:49:54 can you run it on modern implementations? 11:50:21 sbinetd [~sbinetd@94-193-244-239.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:50:56 Dunno, I just checked the link out of curiosity. 11:51:39 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 11:52:29 it has sbcl-1.0.2 11:53:02 -!- Kvaks [~kvaks@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:53:50 1.0.9.13 11:54:01 I can see an older version (pre 1.0) claims to work with sbcl-1.0.19, so might not be that bad. 11:54:30 i wouldn't mention cusp, since i'm sure it'll provide more frustration 11:55:32 Yeah, but then nikodemus would need to delete that paragraph from the FAQ altogether. 11:55:33 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:56:15 that's what i was suggesting 11:56:42 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 12:03:01 done 12:03:02 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:46 ainm [~ainm@166.Red-83-33-85.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:06:41 dotemacs [u801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xbdxsyqpyvtvhyqq] has joined #lisp 12:09:50 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:12:39 -!- hagish [~hagish@p5DCBF608.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:16:21 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 12:17:45 albacker [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:17:58 -!- albacker [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Changing host] 12:17:58 albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #lisp 12:18:24 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 12:21:17 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:22:16 -!- ``Erik_ is now known as ``Erik 12:22:25 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-035.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 12:23:49 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 12:26:35 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-2-151-118.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:36 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@121.11.118.133] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 12:28:31 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-210-127-194.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:29:31 billitch [~billitch@nor75-17-82-67-199-96.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:34:26 stlifey [~stlifey@121.11.118.133] has joined #lisp 12:37:23 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@188-67-156-31.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:37:58 -!- sbinetd [~sbinetd@94-193-244-239.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:42:46 -!- daedric [~daedric@2a01:e0b:1000:21:baac:6fff:fe99:7ada] has quit [Quit: Bye] 12:43:34 daedric [~daedric@2a01:e0b:1000:21:baac:6fff:fe99:7ada] has joined #lisp 12:44:58 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:47:30 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-5-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:52:27 springz [~springz@115.173.172.178] has joined #lisp 12:55:35 nikodemus [~nikodemus@188-67-156-31.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 12:58:05 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-19.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:00:06 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-240-196-215.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:06 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-240-196-215.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:00:06 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 13:01:54 yami [~yami@117.136.19.208] has joined #lisp 13:06:07 nikodemus: "One the open source side, " --> "On the open source side, " 13:06:30 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:07:24 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:07:47 thanks 13:08:17 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:09:32 " SET and SETQ are atrophied remains of older dialects, and will probably be booted from eventual successors of Common Lisp." No. That would defeat the purpose of a COMMON lisp. 13:09:55 it's biased :) 13:09:56 You could say that they wouldn't be included in a different lisp, past present or future. 13:10:01 last time i checked today is not 80s 13:10:25 stassats: Modern Lisp is not COMMON Lisp. 13:10:31 there's a reason why i call it Nikodemus' CL FAQ, and not CL FAQ 13:10:37 common is not an adjective for a long time already 13:11:02 nikodemus: that's ok, I refrained from providing the links to the manuals of the other implementations. ;-) 13:11:09 dinnertime :) 13:11:10 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@188-67-156-31.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:11:19 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 13:17:00 -!- yami [~yami@117.136.19.208] has quit [Quit: yami] 13:18:51 yami [~yami@117.136.19.208] has joined #lisp 13:19:36 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:19:43 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-240-196-215.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:44 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-240-196-215.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:19:44 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 13:20:09 -!- kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 13:21:12 sylecn [~sylecn@49.79.124.164] has joined #lisp 13:21:42 -!- yami [~yami@117.136.19.208] has quit [Client Quit] 13:21:58 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-035.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:22:17 *Neronus* concludes that nikodemus sits somewhere between paris and india (not a very strong conclusion) under the condition that he's not eating dinner very early or very late 13:22:51 ".fi" might provide some kind of clue 13:25:55 antonv [2e35c32a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.42] has joined #lisp 13:26:10 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:27:38 does it mean .france-india? 13:30:09 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 13:30:16 (format nil "Time in Finland: ~{~A~^, ~}" 13:30:45 '(16 30) 13:30:46 if anyone here is associated with the European Lisp Symposium, the new entry on the site could use some proofreading (like Tuesday being written as Thusday) 13:30:48 ) 13:30:59 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:32:02 Kryztof: mh, good point :) 13:33:05 Then it's a strange dinner time. 13:33:27 iLogical_ [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 13:34:29 #lisp is so strict, you can't choose when to have dinner 13:34:51 So I have to have dinner now, too? 13:34:53 possibly he is going out for dinner! 13:35:15 You mean, like, out of #lisp? 13:36:40 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:36:52 no, out of Finland 13:37:28 ah. 13:37:48 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@94.144.63.7] has joined #lisp 13:37:54 If an object in SBCL has a widetag of sb-vm:funcallable-instance-header-widetag, is there a way of finding its size is bytes? 13:38:40 Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-030.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 13:39:12 what do you mean by size here? 13:39:18 byte size 13:39:33 ok, what do you mean by byte size? 13:40:06 if an object has a vector in its slot, do you count its size too? 13:41:03 milanj [~milanj_@93-86-54-102.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 13:41:18 -!- sn0rri [~sn0rri@62.169.219.149] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 13:41:37 -!- ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:42:12 stassats: I though sb-vm:funcallable-instance-header-widetag would apply to a kind of function. 13:42:48 ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has joined #lisp 13:42:49 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:43:09 it's a kind of object which can be called like a function 13:43:17 mop funcallable-instance 13:43:22 specbot: hey! 13:43:27 bummer 13:44:36 clhs mop:funcallable-instance 13:44:37 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for mop:funcallable-instance. 13:44:48 how does this bloody thing work 13:45:13 What would %instance-length return for such an object? 13:45:21 amop class-slots 13:46:23 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.37] has joined #lisp 13:46:30 clhs mop:funcallable-standard-instance-access 13:46:30 http://www.alu.org/mop/dictionary.html#funcallable-standard-instance-access 13:47:48 *stassats* takes a note to make this better and more complete 13:48:17 kami`: what is %instance-length? 13:49:19 sb-kernel:%instance-length? 13:50:10 stassats: yes 13:50:14 -!- sylecn [~sylecn@49.79.124.164] has quit [Quit: Time] 13:51:02 it's for structures, so i don't think it'll be of direct use 13:51:05 it won't 13:51:42 minion: accomplish 13:51:43 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``accomplish''. 13:51:50 minion: advice on accomplish 13:51:50 #11903: What are you really trying to accomplish here? 13:52:28 -!- iLogical_ [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 13:53:16 impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176314164.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:53:22 stassats: thank you 13:53:26 iLogical_ [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 13:53:34 did you solve your problem? 13:53:44 minion: advice on proper manners 13:53:45 You can't expect automated advice for everything. 13:54:02 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:54:47 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@121.11.118.133] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:55:09 stlifey [~stlifey@121.11.118.133] has joined #lisp 13:55:10 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 13:55:22 bbirec [~bbirec@119.202.82.67] has joined #lisp 13:56:11 stassats: no, I ignore the size of that object for the time being. 13:56:26 so, if you want the equivalent of %instance-length, I think you want something like (ldb (byte 56 8) (sb-sys:sap-ref-word (sb-sys:int-sap (logandc2 (sb-kernel:get-lisp-obj-address ) 15)) 0)) on a 64-bit host 13:56:35 mess around with the constants if you're on a 32-bit one. 13:56:58 kami`: but why did you want to know it in the first place? 13:57:03 Kryztof: thank you. 13:57:17 stassats' question remains 13:58:10 Kryztof: aren't objects ultimately structures? 13:58:10 I'm looking at someone else's code which iterates over objects and calculates their overall memory allocated size. 13:58:21 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 13:58:24 Kryztof: your snippet gives me the same result as %instance-length 13:59:13 sb-kernel:get-header-data could probably be used too 14:00:08 so the actual size will depend on the slot vector 14:00:24 interestingly get-header-data on make-instance returns something preposterous here 14:04:08 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:04:30 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:07:18 CrazyEddy [~hawkbill@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 14:08:59 -!- lindes [~user@p4FF1C7A7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:10:22 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.37] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:10:49 -!- scombinator [~user@121-73-59-25.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:13:54 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:16:18 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 14:17:26 -!- iLogical_ [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:19:42 ah, no wonder get-header-data wasn't working; it assumes other-pointer-lowtag 14:19:49 (sb-kernel:get-closure-length #'make-instance) 14:20:36 jlongster [~user@pool-96-253-85-90.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:39 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-030.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:21:55 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-043.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 14:23:57 -!- antonv 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mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:50:16 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:51:36 gilligan_ [~gilligan_@host-089-207-254-219.vipri.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:19 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 14:55:52 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:59:25 zmyrgel [~user@dsl-lprbrasgw1-fe91fa00-218.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 15:01:07 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [] 15:01:54 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Byebye.] 15:04:28 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:09:24 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:10:55 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:11:49 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 15:12:36 EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:59 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:16:04 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-2-151-118.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 15:17:10 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 15:17:20 I'd like to make a program configurable by giving the user the possibility to write a simple file in lisp. I have a config class that has slots the user should be able to fill in. Afaik just loading a config with a make-instance form won't work, how should I do this? One possible way would be to let the user assign a dynamic variable in the config file. What do you think? 15:18:32 sepi: the initialize-instance of that class could register the instance somewhere. 15:18:39 I'm new here, I would consider offering the user a special package in which his file is loaded and only expose (export) some functions in there (closures) 15:19:05 sepi: do you want to configure only a single instance of this class? 15:19:07 But it might be better to provide a macro to let the user do the configuration (configure :option1 value1 :option2 value2 ) 15:19:09 pjb: aha, that's a good idea, thanks 15:19:14 stassats`: yeah 15:19:35 pjb: hmh, that's an idea too 15:19:55 sepi: you can have (:key value) and then do (apply #'make-instance 'config (with-open-file (stream file) (read stream))) 15:20:29 Also, you may load that file in a package with limited availability of CL, both for your protection and your users'. 15:20:32 that assumes it doesn't want to evaluate anything 15:21:33 On the other hand, advanced users may want to add their own functions and patches there, just like in ~/.emacs 15:22:00 stassats`: ah, I like that idea. I might later on want to run the application on as a webapp that enables users to upload their own config files, so this seems quite secure 15:22:15 pjb: I don't expect that to happen :) 15:22:16 if it does, you can make it (eval `(list ,@(read stream))) 15:22:30 sepi: things can be still evaluated with #. 15:22:38 clhs *read-eval* 15:22:39 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for *read-eval*. 15:22:40 sepi: then be sure to bind *read-eval* to nil before reading the config! 15:22:50 specbot: lies! 15:22:54 ok, good to know 15:23:08 clhs list 15:23:08 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for list. 15:23:13 damn specbot 15:25:20 clhs *read-eval* 15:25:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_rd_eva.htm 15:25:21 <|3b|> watch out for #() and things like that too, to avoid DoS 15:26:06 |3b|: how does watching out for #() avoid DoS? 15:26:20 <|3b|> #9999999999999999() for example 15:26:28 ah 15:27:12 somehow I'd find it cool if people would exploit a lisp webapp :) 15:27:22 Process lisp does not exist -- why oh why slime is so hard to get working? 15:27:30 Kron_ [~Kron@206.126.93.212] has joined #lisp 15:27:52 is it? 15:28:14 it's so easy a monkey can do it 15:28:16 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053015146.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 15:28:17 damn, each time I restart Emacs there's another set of errors to go through before it gets back to working state 15:28:58 stassats`: it is, but potential attackers would have to learn a little cl first 15:29:16 sepi: potential attackers may come from #lisp 15:29:26 now that you know :P 15:29:39 dim: easy to fix by never restarting emacs. 15:30:05 not a practical answer, one of the goals being to be able to switch to another setup and continue working 15:30:06 sepi: it's better to write your own config format parser 15:30:08 stassats`: https://gitorious.org/meshc if you're interested 15:30:29 stassats`: yeah, should be more secure to whitelist than to blackslit 15:30:43 s/blackslit/blacklist/ 15:30:48 geek [~geek@unaffiliated/geek] has joined #lisp 15:31:10 dim: what kind of another setup? 15:33:34 splittist [b2c6684a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.198.104.74] has joined #lisp 15:33:39 morning 15:34:30 sepi: and the users should be more happy to write key = value instead of some contorted whatchacallit lisp 15:34:44 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:34:44 dim: what errors do you get? i can confirm that getting slime to run with quicklisp-slime-helper is dead easy 15:35:20 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 15:36:42 stassats`: well, eventually I'll hide the config behind a nice html form 15:37:00 -!- sacho [~sacho@92-247-208-87.spectrumnet.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:38:16 Xach: sorry, machine (laptop/desktop/other office) 15:38:47 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp 15:38:49 H4ns: the server side (swank) part of the setup seems ok, thanks to quicklisp, and in CCL here (current choice) 15:39:30 the slime emacs lisp bits are more problematic (hint, don't try using the github version of it, and be sure to remove all .elc files too) 15:39:36 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:39:46 dim: I guess I don't get it. if you switch from one machine to another, wouldn't you switch from one emacs instance to another? 15:39:51 what is a github version of slime? 15:39:59 dim: can you get to the point, please 15:40:00 where did .elc come from? 15:40:18 Xach: yeah then I run the same setup code for slime and then this time it does not work. Same computer, same setup, stop/start emacs, problems too 15:40:20 dim: i think i told you days ago that quicklisp-slime-helper installs everything you need, including slime. 15:40:28 if you install some third-party slime, all bets are off 15:40:55 *Xach* does not get it, has lost curiosity though 15:41:33 FYI, clall -r '(progn #99999999999999() (values))' gives: abcl says nothing, return no values; clisp signals an error, since it's invalid not to specify an element. cmu signals an error since 999..999 is not fixnum, sbcl signals a heap exhausted error. 15:41:34 *H4ns* feels the toxicity rising 15:41:52 Only ecl segfaults 15:42:05 -!- zmyrgel [~user@dsl-lprbrasgw1-fe91fa00-218.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:42:56 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has quit [Quit: Offline] 15:43:04 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:43:12 leo2007 [~leo@61.148.242.86] has joined #lisp 15:43:13 H4ns: I've been using el-get to install the elisp part of slime 15:43:23 pjb: what about #9999999(a) ? 15:43:25 MoALTz_ [~no@87.112.232.227] has joined #lisp 15:43:27 <|3b|> pjb: hmm, legitimate complaints 15:43:31 dim: please reread what i wrote and comprehend it. 15:43:33 dim: here's your problem 15:43:34 and the slime helper too, but I'm not using its elisp integration because of other errors when I last tried 15:43:42 pjb: would be interesting to see ##.most-positive-fixnum() or equivalent 15:43:47 *|3b|* doesn't actually use that feature often 15:44:07 They all return no value (having allocated the vector successfully, clisp having done some GC). 15:44:42 dim: use slime only from the following sources: quicklisp, slime cvs (or a mirror of thereof), or a CVS snapshot 15:44:53 all other ways are unsupported and not recommended 15:44:59 I'm using the cvs repository now 15:45:10 <|3b|> harder to use up lots of ram on lisps with low fixnum limits :) 15:45:12 el-get is using cvs under the hood 15:45:16 dim: for you purposes, USE THE FUCKING VERSION THAT COMES WITH QUICKLISP SLIME HELPER 15:45:37 H4ns: hey, if helping me is that hard, please consider stopping 15:45:38 -!- MoALTz [~no@87.112.232.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:45:52 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@87.112.232.227] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:45:57 so, your original complaint can be rephrased "why oh why i make slime so hard to get working?" 15:46:16 dim: why do you insist on not just doing it and then complain here? 15:46:17 please 15:46:22 yeah, been trying 3 different methods, it's still not working properly 15:46:47 dim: try the one that works. 15:46:55 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:47:00 dim: time to start from scratch again 15:47:05 instead of doing random things, you could stick to one proper and ask any arising questions here 15:47:15 naiv_ [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-279-177.w83-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:47:38 -!- naiv [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-264-206.w92-157.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:47:39 dim: don't use el-get 15:49:02 sure. I wrote it, I'll stop using it just now, thanks. 15:49:14 how practical an answer, now I don't even have to maintain the code 15:49:23 abcl signals a STORAGE-CONDITION ; clozure complains for (unsigned-byte 56), ccl complains for invalid vector length, sbcl and cmu complains for type-error, 15:49:26 make it less broken then 15:49:45 Yes. 15:50:23 ELISP> (load (expand-file-name "~/quicklisp/slime-helper.el")) 15:50:23 *** Eval error *** Symbol's function definition is void: slime-setup 15:50:26 What you would do for a dos is to fill the memory successfully, retaining useless data in global variables. Then other requests couldn't be honored for lack of free memory. 15:51:14 dim: why do you insist on banging your head against things? 15:51:30 pjb: (read-from-string (format nil "#~a(a)" (1- array-total-size-limit))) 15:51:38 #.(loop for f = (gensym) do (eval `(defvar ,f (make-string 1000)))) ; would be more evil. 15:51:40 prxq: I want to try using CL for real. 15:52:04 ivan-kan` [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 15:52:06 -!- ivan-kan` [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:52:24 dim: did you remove all the previous instances of slime you tried to install? 15:52:54 yes 15:53:10 did you restart emacs in the meantime? 15:53:12 no. 15:53:23 I did unload-feature slime 15:53:28 <|3b|> pjb: or convince it to print the large array somewhere, or store a bunch in a DB, etc 15:53:43 dim: restart emacs 15:53:55 Has anyone seen the following scenario with QuickLisp? Wanting one instance in source control and a separate one for whatever reason. We use a set of libraries at specified versions for builds. Because we store QuickLisp in Subversion, and we maintain separate branches, we end up with multiple quicklisp directories. (Each Lisp process is using just one instance of QuickLisp.) This approach is annoying for developers who want to install other libraries. 15:54:24 <|3b|> #= and ## could also be used for DoS if the code using the data wasn't prepared for circular structures 15:54:47 pjb: #. is easy to disallow 15:55:10 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:55:21 stassats`: indeed, your read-from-string is harder on them 15:56:00 <|3b|> or just put enough big arrays in 1 list that it can't finish reading the list before running out of ram 15:56:04 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.203] has joined #lisp 15:56:23 -!- specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-44-50.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:56:23 -!- minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-44-50.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:57:45 #99999(#99999(a)) where 99999 is close to array-total-size-limit of the implementation 15:58:07 and adding more as needed 15:58:34 that contains only one vector. You are allocating only two vectors. 15:58:59 see second message 15:59:07 Yes. 15:59:10 kmcorbett: You might want to ask in #quicklisp, but how are your ql directories named? It seems like you might want to use svn variable substitution to create unique locations for each branch, and then developers can add a path to their source-registry for libraries they maintain outside of QL. 15:59:27 dim: success? 15:59:39 -!- albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:59:50 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 15:59:59 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 16:00:12 half, I still have to care manually for setting inferior-lisp-buffer to have C-M-x working 16:00:46 dim: that doesn't make sense 16:01:21 do you mean inferior-lisp-program? 16:01:25 dim: lisp-eval-defun? You want to compile a function from a buffer? 16:01:25 kmcorbett: Or do you want to get rid of the multiple QL dirs? 16:01:37 dim: that's what quicklisp tells you when you load quicklisp-slime-helper 16:01:40 maybe it does not, I still had to edit the inferior-lisp-buffer variable after having loaded quicklisp/slime-helper.el 16:01:51 prxq: yes, indeed 16:01:54 there's no such variable 16:02:02 (require 'inf-lisp) 16:02:02 (setq inferior-lisp-program "/Users/dim/dev/CL/ccl/dx86cl64 -K utf-8" 16:02:02 inferior-lisp-buffer "*inferior-lisp*") 16:02:03 -!- diginet_ is now known as diginet 16:02:09 that's allowing me to have the feature 16:02:12 dim: slime uses something else 16:02:18 you're not using C-M-x on your CL forms in your files? 16:02:22 dim: you do not need inf-lisp 16:02:32 dim: you can believe me, quicklisp-slime-helper is all you need. 16:02:38 dim: no. I use C-c C-c. 16:02:39 dim: you're not making any sense 16:02:39 H4ns: yeah, yeah 16:02:55 stassats`: I think I understand the problem. 16:02:57 C-M-x works in slime 16:03:00 ok I'll stop here, thank you guys, you've been helping me a lot already 16:03:07 out of the box 16:03:09 -!- geek [~geek@unaffiliated/geek] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:03:21 unless, perhaps, you break it with inf-lisp 16:03:25 hm, indeed. 16:03:34 damn, how hard it is to follow the simple instructions? 16:03:44 I would like to know what "out of the box" means, someday 16:04:06 oh, and which instruction set? 16:04:08 sellout: I think we need 2 QL dirs, so a clean build can work out of svn, and downloading libraries would install in a separate (per-user) location 16:04:25 dim: i think i pointed you the the blog post, days ago 16:04:26 dim: you do load (ql:quicklisp-slime-helper :quicklisp-slime-helper) 16:04:29 the slime instruction from http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/, from quicklisp, from CCL, from some other wiki place, which one? 16:04:31 you read what it says 16:04:34 you do what it says 16:04:43 *stassats`* is feeling desperate 16:04:52 stassats`: which doc is the good one? cliki one? 16:04:56 dim: which of those told you that you need inf-lisp? 16:05:04 Emacs did. 16:05:20 dim: how did that happen? 16:05:21 dim: emacs? how did it tell you that? 16:05:37 dim: just load (ql:quicklisp-slime-helper :quicklisp-slime-helper) and do what it says 16:05:45 stassats`: you know, a good community is one with infinite patience. 16:05:51 stassats`: did that, didn't work, tried to make it work 16:06:21 well, if your description of a problem is "didn't work", then my answer is "here's a solution" 16:06:53 yeah I know, I'm tired and pissed of too 16:07:02 dim: you did strange things, like the unload-feature business. 16:07:06 can you describe what happened when it didn't work? paste backtraces, error messages, anything you think is relevant? 16:07:54 damn, i crashed minion and specbot when trying those #99999() things 16:07:59 hey the quicklisp install was like 2 weeks ago 16:08:43 so, you can't run (ql:quicklisp-slime-helper :quicklisp-slime-helper) again? 16:09:01 stassats`: Reader error: No external symbol named "QUICKLISP-SLIME-HELPER" in package # . 16:09:20 -!- ainm [~ainm@166.Red-83-33-85.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ((call/cc call/cc) (call/cc call/cc))] 16:09:30 should be (ql:quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper) 16:10:01 Skola [~Skola@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 16:10:43 srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:50 ok simplyfying the integration 16:10:56 specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-44-50.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 16:11:01 minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-44-50.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 16:12:04 Debugger entered--Lisp error: (error "Process lisp does not exist") 16:12:05 signal(error ("Process lisp does not exist")) 16:12:05 error("Process lisp does not exist") 16:12:05 lisp-eval-defun() 16:12:39 that's what happens when I'm doing *exactly* when quicklisp-slime-helper is telling me to, and in a freshly started Emacs instance 16:12:53 strange 16:12:54 the whole integration is now 2 lines long 16:12:54 (load (expand-file-name "~/quicklisp/slime-helper.el")) 16:12:55 (setq inferior-lisp-program "/Users/dim/dev/CL/ccl/dx86cl64 -K utf-8") 16:12:57 dim: lisp-eval-defun? why do you call that? 16:13:07 H4ns: C-M-x in a .lisp file 16:13:14 H4ns: because he loaded inf-lisp 16:13:22 no I didn't 16:13:24 *maxm-* will put his attempt to help in a form of a picture http://www.dailyhaha.com/_pics/horsey_ride.jpg 16:13:34 not this time at least 16:13:39 dim: did you restart emacs after installing slime? 16:13:41 dim: you have something in your .emacs that braks slime. 16:13:51 prxq: yes, I'm using another Emacs just for testing that 16:14:15 breaks 16:14:35 H4ns: ahah. might be. my .emacs is quite involved. I'll stand to slime does not work for me, requires loads of time to understand why, that's for later. 16:14:42 dim: Try `emacs -q`, then evaluating just the bits to set up slime. That'll make sure none of your emacs gets loaded. 16:14:52 dim: you don't understand your .emacs? 16:15:05 dim: generally what probably happenning, is that you have unrelated error in your .emacs 16:15:09 launch grep on all files your emacs loads, find where it requires 'inf-lisp 16:15:11 remove it 16:15:16 dim: which is before the slime bits, so slime bits never get executed 16:15:34 H4ns: I think I do, thank you. I think I'm pissed of and tired and that getting slime to work is more work than I can put into it just now. 16:15:46 zmyrgel [~user@dsl-lprbrasgw1-fe91fa00-218.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 16:15:57 dim: thank you for saying "pissed of" again. makes our live nicer. 16:15:59 stassats`: there's no inf-lisp explicitely loaded at all now in my setup 16:16:11 dim: use binary search, put (message "i'm alive 1") just before slime bits in .emacs, then start emacs, see if you have "I'm alive" in *Messages* Then put it in the middle of your huge .emacs and so on 16:16:23 antgreen [~user@CPE0021910f07ac-CM0019477f82fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:16:35 maxm-: I'm manually loading the slime bits, which are 2 lines, pasted above 16:16:52 dim: alright, then it means that you didn't load slime 16:17:28 waaait 16:17:30 did you start slime? 16:17:38 heh 16:17:40 mrrhrrhrr 16:17:42 M-x slime 16:18:18 mmm, -q works. bissecting ahead. 16:18:30 so, did you run M-x slime? 16:18:57 works = M-x slime started it and I could C-M-x from the .lisp file then call my functions 16:19:03 from the repl 16:19:34 well then, be congratulated :-) 16:20:25 And the humans had triumphed over computers yet again 16:20:50 well, it only works with emacs -Q, i assumed 16:20:57 so the config is still busted 16:21:44 oh no, its not the end.. the emotional ups and down of this story make tummy feel funny 16:21:59 maxm-: it's the toxicity 16:22:02 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 16:22:10 lispotoxicity 16:22:20 maxm-: it can cause ulcers 16:22:23 prxq :) 16:22:48 well except that my emacs setup contains no slime nor CL related bits that I can see yet breaks slime 16:22:55 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.228] has joined #lisp 16:23:01 but well that's clearly on me alone 16:23:05 dim: can you paste your .emacs? 16:23:23 generally I stepped on these same rakes many times (the error in 1 piece of .emacs stops entire thing from loading).. So I split my setup into multiple files, and did a little wrapper (my-require 'my-whatever-setup) that uses condition-case to catch errors, so that a failure in 1 part of .emacs setup, does not stop stuff after it from loading 16:23:30 the whole directory, about 5000 lines of elisp, plus dependencies? 16:23:45 dim: without dependencies 16:24:27 maxm-: well, there's such thing as emacs --debug-init 16:24:43 hey, there's no error at all in the loading 16:25:03 it's only that C-M-x is broken when editing a CL file and with slime started 16:26:03 stassats`: my method requires one less restart.. You only use .debug-init once you noticed the problem right after 1st restart, and now have to do another one to debug it, and then 1 more to make sure its fixed. With my setup, once I notice a problem, I go back to *Messages* and can immediately see where the problem was, plus rest of my .emacs loaded fine, so I just reload the failed part (that is in its own file), without having to 16:26:03 exit 16:26:24 dim: out of curiosity. How did you end up with such a humongous .emacs? 16:26:37 time and copy-and-paste :-) 16:26:43 12 years of using it, using emacs for about all my computers interaction 16:27:05 irc, mail, notes, code, terms, shells, clusterssh, you name it 16:27:37 I began looking at what elisp really is 2 or 3 years ago, wrote some libs, then el-get, etc 16:27:56 that's why I'm now trying CL, I think it might be better than emacs --script 16:28:24 dim: so, can you show your config? 16:28:39 heh /me has 23 megs of *.el files 16:28:47 I'm not sure it's properly cleaned up, used to contain information I don't want to share, sorry 16:29:10 http://git.informatimago.com/viewgit/index.php?a=viewblob&p=public/rc&h=f90e5beb248c247a37861f3d4bd1e8b90b56bec6&hb=bb6188b41423555760ab365e230d93fcb8693a54&f=emacs.el + https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/emacs/trees/master 16:29:12 tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.168.134] has joined #lisp 16:29:14 probably can delete some of the stuff, there is original org-quicky before it become refile, probably half of emacswiki in there 16:29:29 alright, then you're on your own finding what breaks slime 16:29:49 stassats`: yeah I think so, I appreciate your proposal to help me further btw 16:30:09 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:30:20 *maxm-* laughs an pjb's amateurishly small .emacs :-) 16:30:42 mine is only 900 LOC 16:30:50 it's a pissing contest! 16:31:23 and it's https://github.com/stassats/emacs-config 16:31:33 mine is 4 LOC 16:31:35 :D 16:31:55 zmv: yes, some like it plain vanilla, some like it with toppings. 16:32:33 seems like I wrote 5394 lines of elisp to setup emacs, without el-get 16:32:42 el-get is about 5 thousands other lines 16:34:24 -!- gilligan_ [~gilligan_@host-089-207-254-219.vipri.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:34:24 heh my humble .emacs is 75 lines 16:34:26 naiv [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-247-132.w90-4.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:34:33 well actually just the setup files, I have 8k lines, so basically similar.. Rest are packages downloaded from emacswiki, and privite clones of packages ie ccmode, wanderlust etc 16:35:23 but I only use emacs to edit some cl 16:35:24 -!- naiv_ [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-279-177.w83-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:36:08 "I use it as an editor" :) 16:36:56 "This water is cold!" .. "Yeah, and it's deep too!" 16:37:16 multi-tty emacs aliased to "vi" + zsh makes a really useful thing for hacking on java btw 16:37:49 *maxm-* can do vi **/ImHiding10DirectoriesDeepHelper.java much faster then clicking 10 times on [+] in eclipse 16:38:03 why vi? 16:38:24 *maxm-* uses vimpulse, so my emacs is basically vi with elisp scripting 16:38:28 ew 16:39:02 maxm-: that's sick :-) 16:39:16 I use vim for other languages mostly 16:39:31 as far as I'm concerned the ultimate goal of GNU project was to produce a platform for running vi properly 16:41:12 maxm-: how good is vimpulse? does it have all the text objects and motions that vim has? 16:41:25 ie. is it barely more than a vi, or nearly a vim? 16:42:05 I heard there's an emacs replacement being done in cl, if that had a vim mode I think I would switch 16:42:11 flip214: its almost 100% emulation.. You get the "right" visual mode, block visual mode etc.. Its now called "evil" vimpulse is old name, but I'm delaying merging it up, since everything works for me anyway 16:42:51 flip214: all the g bindings, ie gUe to upcase word 16:43:34 and things like [z to move to the start of a fold, ya< to yank a <> block, etc? 16:43:42 flip214: together with multi-tty, my "vi" startup from command line is acutally faster them vim 16:43:56 now, if only there was a sane lisp below vimpulse ;/ 16:44:04 not sure about fold, I never used folding in vim 16:44:05 maxm-: I aliased emacs-tty to "ed", that's very convenient on a qwerty keyboard 16:44:52 *stassats`* aliased emacsclient to ec, because who needs a console emacs 16:45:47 flip214: I implemented an ed(1) in CL, you can use it to make it a vi! 16:46:01 pjb: ha! 16:46:25 If I get "no match" on M-x el-get-install, what's wrong? I did apt-get install el-get 16:46:47 pjb: isn't vi a descendent of ex(1)? 16:46:57 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:47:16 *maxm-* had a privilege of watching old-school programmer who actually used ex for editing 16:47:16 I don't know, in : you type ed commands. 16:47:24 was enlightening 16:48:03 i don't have vi installed, so sometimes i have to use ed to edit botched config files 16:48:40 stassats`: I wouldn't use vi, too .... I'm too much used to vim features 16:48:56 I groan every time I get to a machine that doesn't have a sane vim installed 16:49:18 I install emacs on every machine I have to use. 16:49:35 I'm emacs guy but occasionally I use plain vi for configs as its always present 16:49:51 emacs is always present on the machines I use. 16:49:59 lucky you :) 16:50:14 Even during the installation process. 16:50:41 Too much hassle to try get emacs installed on some ancient server without disturbing installed packages 16:51:12 -!- leo2007 [~leo@61.148.242.86] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.95.1] 16:52:17 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.203] has quit [Quit: Offline] 16:52:45 zmyrgel: that's what nano is for! 16:52:54 syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-carl-202-56.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 16:53:02 If you can compile nano, you can compile emacs. 16:53:06 what's wrong with the no-match? 16:53:51 use a lighter? 16:53:59 sykopomp: well vi is already there and I only need to do small edits here and there 16:54:31 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 16:54:31 bash doesn't say no match anymore. 16:54:34 -!- koollman [samson_t@sp1.kooll.info] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:55:03 pjb: does it use a greener technology? 16:55:07 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Client Quit] 16:55:17 I guess so 16:55:53 incidentally, is CL green or not? 16:56:06 Depends on how you use it. 16:56:13 If you avoid mutation, it's green. 16:56:37 There are more green bytes in CL than in C. 16:57:41 but avoiding mutation doesn't lead to the most optimal algorithms, which means more energy and more CO 16:57:43 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.203] has joined #lisp 16:58:02 Energy is spent on mutation. 16:58:23 (rotatef a b) doesn't consume energy. (setf a b) does. 16:58:53 and (psetf a b b a)? 16:59:40 Depends on how it's implemented, would require a specific optimization. 17:00:27 rotatef is most certainly implemented in the same way 17:00:51 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversible_computing 17:01:18 STM with an outermost transaction? 17:01:35 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 17:01:50 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:02:06 you can't reverse entropy! 17:02:23 But you can avoid spending it. 17:02:33 -!- gabot [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:02:41 And entropy is global. Locally you can reverse it. 17:03:02 There are no closed systems in the universe. Only the universe is (theorically) a closed system. 17:03:39 -!- eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:04:40 pjb: if the universe is expanding at always increasing speeds, every small part will be its own closed system -- when the expansion speed reaches c. 17:05:03 if when. 17:05:41 IIF if you like ... and current measurements indicate this outcome. 17:05:53 not likely that this generation will see it, though ... 17:06:09 "Help fight heat death of universe, stay in bed" 17:06:38 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:07:35 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-2-151-118.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:57 one gigamonkey. 17:13:23 tic: eh? 17:13:39 gigamonkey, it's sort-of a "hello" 17:13:57 Well, hello then. ;-) 17:14:00 Hi. :-) 17:14:16 I wish I could have two nicks on IRC. I've changed to mikaelj everywhere else, but on IRC friends know me as tic. 17:14:38 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:14:43 i have two, one with ` 17:15:14 -!- tic is now known as tic|mikaelj 17:15:14 proposed compromise: "ticaelj" 17:15:18 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:15:21 a-ha! I figured it out. 17:15:37 hefner, funky. 17:16:31 tic: just take the plunge. gigamonkey was once javamonkey. look how that turned out! 17:16:54 -!- tic|mikaelj is now known as coderformerlykno 17:16:57 -!- coderformerlykno is now known as mikaelj 17:16:58 alright then. 17:17:16 mikaelj: you must be new here 17:17:20 who's this mikaelj guy? 17:17:26 argh! >_< 17:17:29 singapore daytrader iirc 17:17:31 see? :( 17:17:33 mikaelj: what brings you to #lisp? 17:17:53 You never get a second chance to make a first impression  unless you change your nick. 17:18:17 stassats`, I seek the holy grail. 17:18:32 (: 17:18:38 You have found it. 17:18:40 #lisp's holy grail is filled with toxins 17:18:50 MoALTz [~no@87.112.232.227] has joined #lisp 17:19:10 And old rotten ones at that. 17:19:11 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:19:26 go for it mikaelj people laughed p diddy too :-) 17:20:31 -!- Skola [~Skola@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:20:53 mikaelj im sorry colonel gaddafi ripped off your wardrobe 17:21:39 hefner, now you sound like uncle dolan 17:25:01 gilligan_ [~gilligan_@host-089-207-254-219.vipri.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:54 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:27:24 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 17:27:37 Greetings lispers 17:27:45 Greetings, earthling! 17:27:56 vantage|home [~vantage@82.41-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 17:28:49 mammal? 17:29:48 mikaelj: previously i always mixed up your nick with tcr when reading 17:29:55 now you're both not active 17:30:21 what happened to tcr? 17:30:27 sucked up by teclo vortex 17:30:29 telco? 17:30:35 err,teclo 17:30:38 worse than ita death 17:31:07 Kryztof escaped for a few days lately, I suspect that won't go unpunished 17:31:08 Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:40 ita death, isn't that google death nowadays? 17:32:00 are they hiring new lisp hackers? 17:32:08 are they done rewriting QPX in C++ yet? 17:33:58 -!- BigHugeDog [~QQ@221.0.11.215] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:34:17 BigHugeDog [~QQ@221.0.11.215] has joined #lisp 17:36:18 stassats`: i seek your informed opinion about a slime matter. 17:36:26 yes 17:36:27 I thought I deserved a break after invading poland 17:36:43 *stassats`* imagines a gooey stinky slimey matter 17:36:50 slimy 17:36:59 By default Emacs `help-mode-map' has "\C-c\C-b" bound to `help-go-back'. slime-describe- presents a functionally similar interface to that of Emacs' help-mode do you have any opinion as to why `slime-interrupt' is bound on the same key when visiting *slime-description* buffer? 17:37:34 mon_key: slime-interrupt is bound to C-c C-b everywhere 17:37:44 except the repl 17:38:25 i don't think slime-describe- presentes a similar functionality 17:38:34 stassats`: I've attempt to unbind it in some places. I have muscle memory such that I am consistently C-c C-b in *slime-description* - frustrating. 17:38:42 it has no links to go forward, so have nothing to go back to 17:38:56 oh god damn 17:39:09 C-c C-b broke my lisp 17:39:17 oh, only slime 17:39:33 yeah the connection is till available. i just have to restart slime. 17:39:41 well, it should work 17:39:51 *stassats`* is glad he doesn't have to restart bots 17:40:51 mathrick [~mathrick@94.144.63.10] has joined #lisp 17:40:59 mon_key: my muscle memory is for "l", from slime inspector 17:41:07 so i bound l in emacs help to go back 17:42:43 stassats`: hrmm. that is prob. the best solution - conform Emacs to act more like slime. 17:42:56 *Xach* learns something about decoded times, finds a bug in an internal iso8601 formatting function 17:42:57 and besides, "l" is shorter 17:43:25 -!- minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-44-50.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:43:25 -!- specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-44-50.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:43:32 yeah so easier to have it overridden by some errant elisper :( 17:44:06 Xach: a CL iso8601 function or a C one? 17:44:19 mon_key: i don't think they would do so globally 17:44:19 mon_key: swank 17:45:00 specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-44-50.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 17:45:09 swank formats local time as "2012-04-06T13:44:09-05:00" but it's actually -04:00 (swank ignores the DST return value) 17:45:28 stassats`: help-mode-map is sometimes derived from 17:45:37 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@82.41-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg] 17:46:03 Xach: where does it format it? 17:46:27 stassats: I can't find where it's actually used. I have been using it because it's the closest iso8601 formatting function for some one-off repl stuff. 17:46:52 oh, in the inspector for integers 17:47:24 ahh 17:47:42 i was off by one form in C-c C-w C-c 17:48:08 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:49:24 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 17:49:59 anyway, the spec says that if DST is returned as a value, the zone does not vary by DST 17:50:22 *Xach* wonders if there are any other functions for which that would apply 17:50:48 Xach: where what would apply? 17:51:06 so, how do i make it work? 17:51:13 mon_key: where the zone is returned but no DST flag is 17:51:17 stassats: good question 17:51:38 stassats: naively, subtract 1 if DST is true 17:52:05 I think there is no information what time-shift the DST flag means. It could be different in different zones and countries. 17:52:28 (But usually it's one hour.) 17:52:55 Xach: how do i make DST be T? 17:53:02 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.203] has quit [Quit: Offline] 17:53:16 stassats: come live with me, start sbcl, call (get-decoded-time) 17:53:23 ISTR that CL's times predate iso-8601 17:53:31 most of america is on DST right now 17:53:39 mon_key: ISO 8601 is not the real issue. 17:53:44 -!- djuber [~djuber@c-76-16-60-176.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:53:54 determining the effective time zone is 17:54:16 The point is what would you shift against if there is no effective standard for DST to shift against. 17:55:23 I am happy to use 1 and let people who have crazy rules complain! 17:55:34 (loop for i from -24 to 24 thereis (nth-value 7 (decode-universal-time (get-universal-time) i))) => NIL 17:55:56 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 17:56:13 Xach: 1 seems like a fine number [-: 17:59:21 mathrick__ [~mathrick@94.144.63.10] has joined #lisp 17:59:25 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-carl-202-56.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:59:38 rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:45 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@94.144.63.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:59:53 stassats: when you provide a zone explicitly DST is always returned as nil 18:00:05 even if dst is in effect locally 18:00:10 stassats: Also, not all time zones are integers. 18:00:32 well, let me check to see if that's just how it works or how it's specified 18:00:44 » The daylight saving time flag is nil if time-zone is supplied. 18:00:46 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.175.173] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:01:22 -!- bjonnh [~bjonnh@147.210.71.83] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:01:41 Ha, I have same bug in log4cl 18:02:03 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #lisp 18:02:10 My work here is done! 18:02:38 *maxm-* is thinking that difference between (encode-universal-time (decode-universal-time ... 0)) and (encode-universal-time (decode-universal-time ....)) should give the right answer 18:02:39 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:03:13 geek [~geek@unaffiliated/geek] has joined #lisp 18:03:50 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:04:00 laevus [~mdaya@dsl-185-115-127.dynamic.wa.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:04:24 i'll just add 1 to timezone and let the users complain 18:04:28 (nobody will notice) 18:05:07 maxm-: with the same caveat from the spec's example that assumes "the time zone is constant throughout the example"? 18:05:43 stassats: i will notice...with super-gratitude! 18:07:26 Perhaps UTC time would do? 18:07:47 (multiple-value-bind (sec min hour date month year day dst tz) (decode-universal-time (get-universal-time) 0) (declare (ignore dst day tz)) (format nil "~D~2,'0D~2,'0DT~2,'0D~2,'0D~2,'0DZ" year month date hour min sec)) => "20120406T180742Z" 18:08:03 throw in a few -s and :s and it's not bad 18:08:17 the zone is helpful for my uses 18:08:33 nah correct solution is this http://paste.lisp.org/display/128808 18:08:40 remove 100 and you get 4 instead of 5 18:08:44 Xach: committed 18:09:04 please, anyone unhappy with the way slime formats time from now on, throw spikes at Xach 18:14:22 -!- springz [~springz@115.173.172.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:14:52 note that encode-universal-time just guesses when you don't specify the time zone. It's not guaranteed to be correct. 18:15:10 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@80.203.136.124] has joined #lisp 18:15:38 That probably should have been pushed a little harder in the spec 18:16:57 anyone remember using C-c C-b before? 18:17:06 what did it do? 18:17:24 well I see no other portable way to determine it 18:17:37 that is you know dst-p is T, but to determine the actual difference 18:18:03 coz can be different from an hour, there been precedents I think 18:18:30 stassats: before what? 18:18:59 before it stopped working 18:19:03 senj [~senj@S01060026f3e14440.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:12 well, i guess i could check it myself 18:20:03 stassats: when did it break? 18:20:18 sometime 18:20:24 indeed 18:21:05 ok, the different way by giving "tz" to encode, still seems to work (annotated above paste) 18:21:21 it interrupted the repl thread 18:21:33 ok, let's make it do that again 18:21:37 -!- two- [~textual@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:21:46 (make-pathname :directory `(:relative ,(namestring *default-pathname-defaults*)) :name "testfile" :type "txt")) -- i suspect this is an incredibly incorrect way to get a pathname to something relative to the current working directory. is there a better way? :/ 18:21:55 probably misunderstanding pathnames 18:22:29 directory should be a list 18:23:01 but, you should just use (make-pathname :name "testfile" :type "txt") 18:23:19 or, "testfile.txt", if you don't care about VMS 18:23:22 doh. 18:23:26 dsp_: (merge-pathnames "testfile.txt") 18:23:27 and *default-pathname-defaults* is not necessarily pwd 18:23:46 i overcomplicated things i see. thanks a lot 18:24:38 if you want it to stop from changing when you change *d-p-d*, then (make-pathname :name "testfile" :type "txt" :defaults *default-pathname-defaults*) 18:24:48 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has joined #lisp 18:25:10 or what Xach said, in case you don't care about RSX-11 18:25:24 i'm essentially just trying to load a configuration file which i expect to be in the same directory as the binary that is being executed, or one relative to it 18:25:50 *default-pathname-defaults* wouldn't help here 18:26:00 stlifey_ [~stlifey@119.121.180.145] has joined #lisp 18:26:05 (merge-pathnames (make-pathname :name "testfile" :type "txt")) looks right 18:26:29 dsp_: no need. make-pathname already will take the directory from *d-p-d* if it's not supplied. 18:26:42 sb-ext:*runtime-pathname* on SBCL 18:26:58 (merge-pathnames "config.txt" sb-ext:*runtime-pathname*) 18:26:59 without the merge-pathnames i don't seem to get a fully-qualified one on SBCL 18:27:10 not sure if that matters though 18:27:25 just trying to do it in the most non-implementation-specific way 18:27:31 Ok, I was wrong about the defaults. 18:27:37 -!- stlifey_ [~stlifey@119.121.180.145] has quit [Client Quit] 18:27:51 You could use :defaults *default-pathname-defaults* though 18:27:57 or :defaults sb-ext:*runtime-pathname* 18:27:59 stlifey_ [~stlifey@119.121.180.145] has joined #lisp 18:28:19 or just (merge-pathnames "config.txt" sb-ext:*runtime-pathname*) 18:28:23 dsp_: maybe LOAD-TIME-VALUE ? 18:28:35 dsp_: there's no portable way 18:28:40 hah 18:28:54 so many options 18:28:56 there's no notion of "binary" 18:29:13 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@121.11.118.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:29:50 maxm-: what does 100 do in the local binding of ut? 18:30:32 mon_key: it was just quick way to get UT in the winter for testing 18:30:39 -100 days from now 18:30:47 was too lazy to type (encode) :-) 18:30:55 has anyone ever gotten commonqt working on macos? 18:30:55 maxm-: OK thanks 18:31:33 ah, maybe this guy has: http://kvardek-du.kerno.org/2011/12/setting-up-commonqt-on-osx.html 18:31:43 that guy? 18:32:25 that guy luis sent some patches which are now merged 18:33:45 (meaning, you don't need to checkout his branch) 18:34:16 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:38:48 -!- geek [~geek@unaffiliated/geek] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:39:22 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:40:31 *maxm-* realized he formats timezones incorrectly too.. %z in strftime is actually backward, its -500 for GMT+5 18:40:36 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 18:43:30 huh? no it's not 18:44:01 hm, has anyone else experienced issues with ccl + `rutil' via quicklisp? "Error: Can't abbreviate WITH-GENSYMS" 18:44:02 CL zone values have a different sign from what is usually meant 18:44:12 (never used CCL before, thought I'd give it a whirl) 18:44:24 dsp_: I've seen that and I once knew the cause, but I don't remember it now. 18:44:27 TZ=GMT+9 /bin/date +%z => -0900 and TZ=GMT-9 /bin/date +%z => +0900 18:45:01 maxm-, but TZ variables is interpreted backwards to ISO8601 18:45:05 coz the %z is the offset to substract from the time string before it, to arrive at user's local time, so it has opposite sign from the actual timezone offset user is in 18:45:23 Xach: ok, wasn't sure if it was me ;) thanks anyway 18:45:24 No, %z is the user's timezone. 18:46:20 TZ=GMT-3 date +%z => +0300 18:46:47 yea, cause TZ is backwards 18:46:57 not cause %z is backwards 18:47:21 well thats what I meant.. one of them is backward, sorry for not investigating farther as to which one of them is wrong 18:47:40 I'm 4 hours earlier than GMT now. 18:47:44 in eastern daylight time 18:48:15 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:48:20 Sane people call that GMT-4. TZ calls it GMT+4. 18:48:29 POSIX strikes again! 18:48:33 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:49:37 Hey guys, trying to organise a Emacs conf, in case you might be interested, let me know what you'd like to see at the conference here: http://emacsconf.herokuapp.com/ thanks :) 18:49:57 anyways, TZ=GMT+9 is a great big lie. Your timezone isn't called GMT if you're 9 hours off gmt. :) 18:50:23 the thing before the offset is supposed to be the name of your tz, not "GMT". 18:50:31 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:51:21 foom, luckily GNU systems have this TZ=Europe/Helsinki format too. 18:52:13 in posix you're supposed to specify that TZ=:Europe/Helsinki 18:53:29 -!- billitch [~billitch@nor75-17-82-67-199-96.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:54:17 gabot [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 18:54:43 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 18:54:55 hagish [~hagish@p5DCBF608.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:56 -!- tdubellz is now known as StaffGiraffe 18:58:42 Why would INCF expand to (LET* ((#:G838 1) (#:NEW837 (+ A #:G838))) (SETQ A #:NEW837))? In particular, why is the numeral 1 gensym'd here? 18:59:09 chturne: incf can have an optional delta value that defaults to 1 18:59:26 robonyankitty [~mechanyan@li125-243.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 18:59:29 callen [~callen@unaffiliated/callen] has joined #lisp 18:59:32 I suspect that's just binding the delta variable unconditionally. 18:59:33 Xach, oic, I suppose it can be an expression rather than a number 18:59:42 sure. 18:59:53 yes, and then it must make sure it is evaled only once. 18:59:59 phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:00:00 -!- phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Changing host] 19:00:00 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 19:00:16 Thanks 19:01:42 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:03:55 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:06:29 it's evaluated once in this case anyway 19:07:21 ikki [~ikki@189.239.187.152] has joined #lisp 19:08:00 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:08:03 Sikander [~userid@54699806.cm-12-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 19:08:25 I'm still a bit confused because surely the INCF macro can check if DELTA is a number, and if so, save on a binding. 19:09:09 kenanb [~user@94.54.237.227] has joined #lisp 19:09:18 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:09:52 chturne: "save"? What do you think the cost is? 19:10:30 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 19:10:38 Maybe in some implementations INCF is different. But does not seem too expensive. 19:10:46 pkhuong, small, but not negligible. I'm new, but surely the LET* creates a new lexical frame in this case. 19:11:01 chturne: it's compiled away 19:11:01 chturne: not in a decent compiler. 19:11:03 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:11:23 lexical frames are cheap. Hint: _lexical_ 19:11:27 Ah, sufficiently smart compilers :) 19:11:29 the only wasteful thing here is a creation of a new symbol and an increase of *gensym-counter* 19:11:33 -!- zmyrgel [~user@dsl-lprbrasgw1-fe91fa00-218.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:11:43 chturne: no, just decent. 19:11:44 zmyrgel [~user@dsl-lprbrasgw1-fe91fa00-218.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 19:11:48 chturne: no, that's normal for a normal compiler 19:12:13 Heh 19:12:21 chturne: look at the disassembly. 19:13:19 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:13:28 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:36 chturne: http://paste.lisp.org/+2RE4 19:14:52 pjb, thanks for the tip. What LISP are you using? Mine spits out what appears to be x86 assembly. 19:15:12 clisp 19:15:21 -!- kilon [~kilon@ppp-94-64-183-62.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:15:34 One advantage of clisp among others, is that it uses a lisp VM, so the disassemblies are clearer. 19:15:38 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:16:00 jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:21 time to ramp up the toxicity! 19:16:41 Thanks again 19:16:42 Who wants to be bullied? 19:16:48 chturne: you're welcome. 19:17:30 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.239.187.152] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:17:49 We should design some hazing routines for newbies neeing some toxicity. 19:17:52 lisp specific. 19:18:22 "here's some code for you" "hey, it deleted my hard drive" 19:19:03 "that's impossible, your hard drive is made out of physical disks..." 19:19:23 "you must mean it deleted your _data_" 19:19:33 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:34 is there a quicklisp command to list installed packages? 19:19:54 Xach: yes, but that's too lame, too a classic. We need something new and more specifically lispy. 19:20:03 cat /dev/parens > /dev/sda1 19:20:06 systems, ql-dist::(mapcar 'name (provided-systems t)) 19:20:25 stassats: thx 19:20:35 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:21:50 *maxm-* has no idea how to make this look less ugly http://paste.lisp.org/display/128813 19:22:08 blackwolf: for installed systems: ql-dist::(mapcar 'name (installed-systems t)) 19:22:20 blackwolf: for installed projects: ql-dist::(mapcar 'name (installed-releases t)) 19:24:35 maxm-, is LOCAL-TIME library out of the question? 19:24:51 dtw: trying to keep log4cl dependencies to a minimum 19:26:04 stassats: any idea what to do about QtDBus on mac os? 19:26:27 What does local-time do about the issue, if anything? 19:26:58 (local-time:format-timestring nil (local-time:now) :format (quote (:gmt-offset))) => "+03:00" 19:26:59 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 19:27:10 I forgot "the issue" already. :-) 19:28:28 slyrus: it prevents commonqt from working? or you want to use it? 19:29:24 cmake'ing smokeqt fails because it's not finding in /Library/Frameworks 19:29:38 no idea 19:30:11 try editing some cmake file and excluding compilation of qtdbus 19:31:09 well actually log4cl: format-time is a generic.. So technically those who want to use local-time or localized weekday / month names or such can eazily override it 19:31:27 DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-14-2.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:40 slyrus: try removing this https://projects.kde.org/projects/kde/kdebindings/smoke/smokeqt/repository/revisions/master/entry/CMakeLists.txt#L41 19:33:36 LOCAL-TIME is great. 19:33:46 (local-time:decode-timestamp (local-time:now)) => 393094000, 44, 33, 22, 6, 4, 2012, 5, T, 10800, "EEST" 19:34:23 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:34:29 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 19:36:11 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 19:37:38 -!- laevus [~mdaya@dsl-185-115-127.dynamic.wa.co.za] has quit [Quit: laevus] 19:38:28 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-5-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 19:39:20 where does it get the EEST from? 19:39:31 *maxm-* found no portable way to get them 19:39:37 as well as weekday/month names 19:39:47 the package contains tzdata files 19:39:53 ah 19:40:59 -!- nha [~prefect@dhcp-15-224.math.tu-berlin.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:41:09 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 19:41:22 ainm [~ainm@166.Red-83-33-85.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:36 (local-time::timezone-path local-time:*default-timezone*) => #P"/etc/localtime" 19:41:49 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:41:59 There is PATH slot in timezone class. 19:42:15 (or struct) 19:42:16 thanks stassats, so far so good 19:44:01 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 19:44:01 -!- mathrick__ [~mathrick@94.144.63.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:45:05 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 19:45:37 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:47:10 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:47:46 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 19:50:08 albacker [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:09 -!- albacker [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:50:09 albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #lisp 19:50:47 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:52:09 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:53:04 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 19:53:13 -!- senj [~senj@S01060026f3e14440.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 19:53:28 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:56:52 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-397638.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 19:58:13 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 19:59:03 [6502] [4e0ce009@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.12.224.9] has joined #lisp 20:00:24 <[6502]> does "(import * from graphics)" look ugly? (i mean the "from" thing) 20:00:52 Phooodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:07 lindes [~user@p4FF1C7A7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:01:18 I don't like the "import" or "*" part, either. 20:01:40 <[6502]> hehehe 20:01:40 it looks like python, hence it is ugly 20:01:47 Yep should just be "(graphics)" 20:01:55 <[6502]> Xach: so you like parenthesis and graphics 20:01:55 -!- jollyG [~JollyG@KennPAT.uncc.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:02:02 [6502]: i didn't get that far 20:02:17 lindes` [~user@p4FF1C7A7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:02:36 <[6502]> stassats`: I thought it would look like (loop...) 20:02:39 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:02:43 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:02:47 Hi LiamH 20:02:57 Hi Sikander 20:03:05 <[6502]> other uses are: (import (this that that-other) from graphics) and (import graphics as g) 20:03:16 Any progress? Or anything I should be trying out? 20:03:20 it doesn't need to look like loop 20:04:02 Hey LiamH 20:04:21 mon_key: finally fixed C-c C-b 20:04:22 <[6502]> stassats`: an alternative syntax for these cases ? (importing all exported symbols, importing some symbols, importing just he module possibly giving it a nickname) 20:04:35 <[6502]> he module = the module 20:04:44 clhs defpackage 20:04:44 [6502]: is this a non-CL language? 20:04:44 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for defpackage. 20:04:51 not again 20:04:58 [6502]: Is this for some alternative to DEFPACKAGE? 20:04:59 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:05:07 <[6502]> Xach: yes 20:05:09 -!- StaffGiraffe is now known as tdubellz 20:05:09 ah 20:05:20 in CL, you don't import exported symbols, you inherit them via use 20:05:28 Sikander: no, not looked at 20:05:32 Hi ThomasH 20:05:37 ThomasH: make-package 20:06:30 Sikander: what I did learn was that for me anyway, it looked like variable-information was being ignored, so declarations are useless. 20:06:38 clhs defpackage 20:06:38 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpkg.htm 20:07:36 LiamH: is variable-information a cmucl/sbcl thing? 20:08:07 Sikander: it's actually a CLtL2 thing, but was removed before the ANSI standard was made. 20:08:20 ah 20:08:43 I'm not sure why it was removed, as it doesn't have a replacement. 20:08:51 LiamH: COMMON 20:09:07 It wasn't COMMON enough: some implementation didn't do it, or didn't do it the same way. 20:09:11 stassats`: Great! what did you fix? 20:09:18 a bug 20:09:29 yes what was it? 20:09:31 LiamH: it's easy to add it back: write a CDR, and push the implementers to implement it. 20:09:32 (which crashed swank) 20:09:40 mon_key: why do you need to know? 20:09:43 LiamH: Well, at the moment I'm just doing everything with cl-arrays and a with-foreign-arrays macro when I need gsll. That seems to be working well with regards to speed issues 20:09:48 LiamH: http://cdr.eurolisp.org/ 20:10:10 the reason i asked earler about C-c C-b and *slime-description* is b/c it was crashing my swank 20:10:24 well, i fixed this 20:10:32 and this is good! 20:10:40 see the diff and changelog entry for details 20:10:42 Thank you 20:11:05 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181241043.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:11:24 Sikander: if you're on SBCL and you make everything a foreign-array, you should have the cl-array "window" that allows you to use CL functions on those arrays. Anything you do will magically appear on the foreign side. 20:12:09 LiamH: you mean e.g. cl:aref also works on foreign-arrays? I don't need grid:aref? 20:12:30 Sikander: no, it works on (cl-array foreign-array) 20:12:45 Kynes`_ [~GTSpyVan1@adsl-75-0-4-185.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:45 LiamH: ah, that makes more sense 20:14:34 LiamH: By the way, I saw cl-static-array on github; didn't try it yet but thought you might have some idea about it? 20:15:06 minion: chant 20:15:06 Sikander: yeah, I asked fe[nl]ix about it and it doesn't seem to offer anything useful. 20:15:34 clintm_ [~clintm@173-129-112-14.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:37 static-vectors is what Antik uses, seems to work well. 20:15:37 LiamH: ok, so foreign-array is the way to go 20:16:03 Yes, it's built on static-vectors, which is why #'cl-array works as I described. 20:16:19 -!- Kynes` [~GTSpyVan1@adsl-75-0-0-149.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:16:19 Right 20:16:50 LiamH: About antik: why does gsll depend on it? it seems antik offers way more than gsll needs. 20:17:19 brentb [~buescher@oh-76-5-245-157.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:20 is there a guide to write secure web apps in lisp? 20:17:38 kenanb: I don't think so. 20:17:38 Sikander: Well, if it makes you feel better, I'm in the process of splitting it up into separate systems. It's the old "one big system" vs. "many little systems" dilemma. 20:17:41 LiamH: Why not have grid, antik and gsll separate 20:17:43 ah 20:17:50 -!- brentb [~buescher@oh-76-5-245-157.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:17:57 tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.56.161.121] has joined #lisp 20:17:58 LiamH: It won't make me feel better :D 20:18:20 Sikander: some people ask "why is everything broken up into little systems, just load everything!" 20:18:23 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 20:18:26 LiamH: It was more a question about how you decided to define things 20:18:31 aha :D 20:19:14 luis: are you the person I should gripe at with commonqt problemd? 20:19:18 problems even 20:19:21 Sikander: I did it that way because it's mostly derived from a private system I've developed and used for about 15 years. Of course that doesn't answer the question. 20:19:50 LiamH: well, it sort of does, if this means "it grew that way" 20:19:54 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.168.134] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:19:55 slyrus: me too, but rather general problems or linux problems 20:19:59 Sikander: but in primitive times (pre quicklisp), it was much harder to gather a whole bunch of pieces to load. 20:20:13 stassats`: no, this is mac specific, I think 20:21:02 -!- antifuchs [foobar@care.boinkor.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:21:10 I think because of quicklisp, the "break up into many small pieces" camp is winning the argument. 20:21:18 -!- shachaf [shachaf@2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:fedf:6da8] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:21:29 i did it before quicklisp is cool! 20:21:35 was 20:21:41 hipster stassats` 20:21:45 Now only Xach has to worry about gathering up the pieces :-) 20:22:05 Poor Xach, so much to do, so little time 20:22:14 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-043.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:22:21 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:22:24 are stats available on which systems have been quicklisp-installed most frequently? (just in case there's something really slick out there that I've been missing ...) 20:22:37 alexandria 20:22:40 Sikander: So, I'm sold, and I'm breaking it up into pieces. It's on my EGTDL. 20:22:48 antifuchs [foobar@care.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:54 shachaf [~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 20:23:01 LiamH: Your EGTDL list is indeed EG... 20:23:25 Yup. Look at the separate-systems branch, that's the start. 20:24:04 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-023.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 20:24:27 LiamH: at least you're working to cross stuff off... 20:24:30 It will still be one repository after the breakup. 20:24:35 Yes 20:25:26 I have a daily TDL I keep in org-mode. Unfortunately, your task is under "unscheduled". 20:25:55 No worries, I have my own tdl, one of which is to start using org-mode... 20:26:43 Yeah, org-mode is cool, but generates its own tdl with entries that start "learn about..." or "learn how to use..." 20:26:52 joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:16 Man, cl is great and all, but this is one of the biggest problems I have: there's now all sorts of stuff I want to learn, try out, work on etc. So for cl, I start using emacs (for slime), and then emacs becomes it's own problem: all sorts of stuff to learn, try out, etc... 20:28:31 so don't use emacs initially 20:28:46 use emacs eventually? 20:29:08 i think the only way to learn emacs properly is to just go in head first 20:29:08 I suffered with CL and vim for two years before I started using emacs 20:29:34 I still use nvi for other stuff, but I use emacs for cl and latex 20:29:41 no need to suffer, vimpulse is the answer 20:30:04 Sikander: what do you mean by learning properly? 20:30:06 I found that vi-like modes in emacs combine the worst of both rather than the best 20:30:18 *maxm-* wonders how one goes about adding chant things to minion.. I want "MORE VIMPULSE" 20:30:19 stassats`: coming from a vi, emacs is... different... 20:30:20 being able to write new programs in Emacs Lisp? 20:30:38 Sikander: emacs is far too powerful to be counted as a way to use with CL only, so no harm in learning it. 20:30:39 minion: chant 20:30:50 mm 20:30:55 oh, not here 20:31:03 minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-44-50.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 20:31:07 stassats`: not necessarily writing programs, but at least finding all the available/relevant modes, customizing etc. 20:31:09 apparently, vimpulse has been superseded by evil 20:31:12 minion: chant! 20:31:12 MORE EMACS 20:31:19 there you go 20:31:32 I even use it as my image viewer now, for texture selection in my computer graphics projects 20:31:58 dlowe: its basically same thing, I'm still running the old one when it was vimpulse.. IMHO vimpulse was better name, since its main thing is that it emulates vim, not vi 20:32:05 minion: chant 20:32:05 MORE TOXIC 20:32:07 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:32:07 -!- schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:32:09 maxm-: I still think it stinks 20:32:19 schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 20:32:19 So anyway, I was reading this: http://code.google.com/p/lispbuilder/wiki/PortableInteractiveDevelopment 20:32:39 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #lisp 20:32:40 dlowe: how so? I mean in practical terms, what do you find not working? 20:32:52 and wondered how I can change the mcclim loop to use such interactive development 20:33:20 mcclim? 20:33:32 McCLIM 20:33:43 McClIm? 20:33:51 so, you use mcclim? 20:33:56 maxm-: this isn't really on topic, so this is all I'll say about it, but I use a lot of modes that bind non-control keys, and it didn't play nicely with those 20:34:04 stassats`: what would you suggest? 20:34:07 hmmmm [~hmmmmmmm@pool-96-253-194-175.sctnpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:10 commonqt, of course 20:34:20 stassats`: I don't even have qt libraries installed 20:34:42 install them 20:35:15 commonqt can run message loop in the background, so you can interact with widgets through the repl 20:35:15 unless, of course, you're happy with mcclim 20:35:17 stassats`: but... I think I like the mcclim approach to gui 20:35:41 i believe mcclim can do that too though 20:35:43 -!- clintm_ [~clintm@173-129-112-14.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Quit: clintm_] 20:35:44 Sikander: is it being broken and incomplete? 20:35:51 dlowe: ah, what you need is to write a hack, "vimpulse-give-back-keys-to-mode".. /me uses it on almost everything 20:35:52 nobody wants to fix bugs in mcclim 20:36:12 why not? 20:36:18 you ask them 20:36:28 they we do not speak of? 20:36:37 or Them? 20:36:39 maxm-: I didn't want that. 20:36:55 Sikander: whoever you catch 20:37:03 hey guys, I am trying to write a function that'll take in a list of tuples, and then output a list containing each of the values found in each tuple, except only once. if that makes sense. 20:37:06 http://pastebin.com/BuPANpVN is what i have so far 20:37:28 I'm sure you can replace mcclim's command loop to also be able to interact with stuff through the repl 20:37:30 Sikander: you don't have to change anything in McCLIM to do that. 20:37:32 dlowe: well then I not sure I understand your problem. Here is my hack http://paste.lisp.org/display/128815 20:37:36 i want (nodelist '((a b) (c a) (e d))) to return (a b c d e) for example 20:37:43 not necessarily in that order 20:37:52 basically lets you viperize modes that bind non-control keys painlessly 20:37:53 my eyes 20:37:54 -!- splittist [b2c6684a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.198.104.74] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:37:58 <[6502]> is it better a generic (but potentially dangerous) way to export symbols with a pattern matching or a specific but more rigid option to export all accessors for structure fields? 20:38:06 hefner: how do I write a mcclim program while being able to interact with the data both through mcclim and the repl? 20:38:09 now the problem i'm having is i have to check to see if that element i'm consing into the list is already in the list or not 20:38:39 maxm-: perhaps you are thinking that the optimum is the same for every person? 20:38:41 Sikander: are you using windows with a single-threaded implementation or something? 20:38:42 I know that I can use find, but i don't know how to 20:38:43 hefner: last time I was here, people told me all sorts of scary stuff: using threading libraries, wrapping locks around objects 20:38:48 hmmmm: I get the impression that you need to read a very very basic guide. 20:38:54 very very basic? 20:38:59 Sikander: be more specific. you can run the mcclim app in its own thread, play in the slime repl, recompile definitions as usual. 20:39:08 minion: please tell hmmmm about PCL 20:39:08 hmmmm: direct your attention towards PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 20:39:14 yes. Your syntax is almost entirely wrong, and it's hard to get the syntax wrong on a language that has none. 20:39:25 minion: please tell hmmmm about gentle 20:39:25 hmmmm: please see gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 20:39:39 the syntax is wrong? 20:39:41 hefner: I have a mcclim window that displays data graphically (a graph of an array of numbers) 20:39:44 a parenthesis is off somewhere then 20:39:59 dlowe: not really, its not like I'm forcing you to use it.. Just was interested in the details of "it stinks".. If you don't want to expand on it its fine, I won't bother you no more 20:40:04 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-135-88.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:40:13 hefner: I want to be able to modify this graph (e.g. the title etc) via the mcclim application, or via the repl 20:40:44 do you have threads? 20:40:51 hefner: but it seems that variables from one thread are not available in the other thread 20:40:56 stassats`: yes 20:41:06 stassats`: brand new threads, man... 20:41:10 special variable bindings are thread local 20:41:19 hmmmm: for one, you don't call functions like this(X). For two, there is no "X not Y" construct. 20:41:24 make sure you're using global bindings 20:41:33 I'm not sure what you mean 20:41:44 Oh, whoops 20:41:48 I do have nodelist(A) there 20:41:53 I'll fix that 20:42:11 how would I check to see if A is nil or not then? 20:42:23 clhs null 20:42:24 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_null.htm 20:42:35 your indentation is appalling 20:42:58 yeah. Bad indentation makes things unreadable -- we also don't do dangling parens. 20:43:00 stassats`: I have a e.g. a *title* and a *x-axis-label* that I defvar'ed 20:43:17 Sikander: ah. you'll need a way to tell the clim app the data has changed. you could just add a "refresh" button to click. there's not a portable way to magically tell when the value of a variable changes. 20:43:18 stassats`: But when I try to setf them in one thread, it doesn't seem to work 20:43:29 Sikander: do you shadow them with LET? 20:43:35 no 20:43:44 hefner: Ok, that's a useful tip 20:43:44 hmm 20:43:53 Sikander: with any other binding-introducing operators? 20:44:25 hmmmm: Emacs can do a pretty good job of teaching you the basics of indenting Lisp. 20:44:26 so if i understand correctly, doing (null a) will return a boolean if a is nil or not? 20:44:31 oh, you didn't try to see the value? 20:44:44 is there a more general way to compare two values? 20:44:44 hmmmm: what does clhs say? 20:44:49 clhs eql 20:44:50 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_eql.htm 20:44:59 thanks, i'd rather use eql 20:45:02 man, this is so basic 20:45:09 stassats`: What I'm doing (and this may be wrong) is I define the variables (using defvar) before run-frame-top-level 20:45:18 I'm glad it's basic for you, but this is literally the first lisp function i've had to write 20:45:35 hmmmm: #lisp is not the first line support 20:45:38 I'm using a language that i've never used before, with a pardigram that's inherently more difficult than imperative 20:45:48 hmmmm: You should be reading a book. This channel isn't really for answering super-basic questions beyond "where do I start?" 20:45:53 you were suggested two good books of different level 20:46:14 stassats`: In slime, I try using setf on those variables, nothing seems to change. But this may be related to the need for a refresh button that hefner talks about 20:46:23 Okay, and I'm thankful for that, this is simply a single assignment though... I certainly don't want to read an entire book to accomplish one assignment 20:46:31 isn't there a smaller primer or something? 20:46:35 is this homework? 20:46:36 homework? 20:46:38 it is actually 20:46:46 then you should probably refer to your course materials. 20:46:47 Sikander: i assumed that it's obvious the you need to evaluate the code which uses this variable after you change its value 20:46:51 there are no course materials 20:46:51 or ask your professor. 20:47:06 hmmmm: Did you get to pick the language? 20:47:10 nope 20:47:14 this is a no-homework zone 20:47:18 stassats`: sure 20:47:22 what's wrong with homework? 20:47:32 hmmmm: You don't need to read the whole book. The first 3-5 chapters of PCL are very likely quick reads and will get you on the right course. 20:47:34 you do it at home yourself 20:47:35 that's a pretty elitist attitude 20:47:40 lol 20:47:51 stassats`: I think I need to re-try and force a reset. 20:47:53 yes, being able to learn things is elitist 20:47:59 It's a toxic attutide, you mean 20:48:00 stassats`: not reset, but refresh. 20:48:01 hmmmm: I find it hard to believe that your course instructor specified using Common Lisp and didn't provide an primers. 20:48:05 minion: chant! 20:48:05 MORE TOXIC 20:48:11 uh oh, it's that time again 20:48:17 hmmmm: you wouldn't happen to have a blog, would you? 20:48:22 hammer time? 20:48:23 ....no.. 20:48:34 was #lisp specified by your teacher as one of the teaching materials? 20:48:45 thomasH: his primer did nothing in terms of helping with design patterns 20:48:50 clintm_ [~clintm@174-144-38-181.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:00 hmmmm: there are no design patterns. 20:49:03 this is a very common design pattern where I have to utilize the result of one thing in order to check another thing as a condition 20:49:15 in an imperative language, i'd use a variable and get it done with 20:49:20 but seriously. Do your own homework. You've been given the tools you need. It won't take you longer than an hour or two to read through some introductory materials. 20:49:22 in haskell, i can use Let 20:49:27 back in my day, homework was something you did alone, without asking the world for help... 20:49:31 kids these days... 20:49:36 <[6502]> hmmmm: if you couldn't care less about lisp or learning in general and instead the problem is the assignment, isn't it better to just cheat on that? 20:49:47 .... 20:49:55 hmmmm: there's LET in lisp as well 20:49:59 hmmmm: Lisp has variables. You can set them. Lisp supports imperative code just fine. 20:50:03 if the teacher doesn't explain clearly, you can use suggested extracurricular material, like Practical Common Lisp or Gentle Introduction 20:50:08 Or just skip that whole 'education' thing. 20:50:11 Sikander: the higher tech way to do this would be to send messages to the application to tell it when the data has changed (via its event queue). you could fake making this work for your global variables with some symbol macro trickery. 20:50:15 Okay, so I can use let? 20:50:19 there are available for free on-line 20:50:21 clhs let 20:50:21 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_let_l.htm 20:50:22 Great 20:50:24 thanks guys 20:50:27 bye 20:50:33 s/there/they/ 20:50:36 are you going to ban me or something? 20:50:40 no 20:50:52 am i really putting that much of a cramp in your channel? 20:51:11 no, you putting a cramp on yourself by not learning properly 20:51:14 hefner: ah, that sounds interesting as well, but probably only once I get the basic thing working. Is there an example of this somewhere in the wild? 20:51:22 nobody can learn anything properly in a week 20:51:30 hmmmm: you're resisting our attempts to help, so it seems like a waste of time :) 20:51:38 which is the unreasonable deadline i've been given - and this is a single course 20:51:55 nobody let this guy near the principle of induction 20:52:02 learning how to learn from given materials is part of what you should get from your course, maybe 20:52:04 is your goal to learn or to pass a grade? 20:52:18 Sikander: not of that specifically, no. 20:52:22 I'd love to learn, but this pace is not reasonable 20:52:23 sezo [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 20:52:34 and I certainly am not learning anything from my professor 20:52:41 you should talk to him about that. 20:52:44 that's why he's there. 20:52:47 I'm on break 20:52:47 college is bloat anyway. Abandon it and teach yourself. 20:53:02 <[6502]> may be his professor is HERE indeed :-D 20:53:06 says the film school graduate 20:53:07 >_> 20:53:08 That's not possible 20:53:19 jasox [~user@178.239.26.136] has joined #lisp 20:53:28 Ralith: indeed. 20:53:41 hefner: is there a clear, simple mcclim program you could point to, from which I could learn some techniques? I've been looking at examples, which are too simple, or full-blown applications (like climacs) which are quite hard to figure out at my level. 20:53:46 I'm going to go read some now. Later. 20:53:53 have fun 20:53:56 good luck! 20:54:04 Sikander: mcclim has an Examples directory 20:54:54 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 20:54:55 stassats`: Yes, I've worked through them. They illustrate some of the great things about mcclim, but at the same time, seem somewhat limited 20:55:13 -!- clintm_ [~clintm@174-144-38-181.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Quit: clintm_] 20:55:13 well, they are simple examples 20:55:14 stassats`: limited in the sense of what I can learn from them. 20:55:17 <[6502]> common lisp is anyway MUCH less obvious I'd have thought 20:55:17 stassats`: yes :D 20:55:33 Sikander: my McPixel app does some interesting things in about 800 lines of code: https://github.com/ahefner/McPixel/blob/master/mcpixel.lisp 20:55:41 can not get it how genes is being initialized "line 3" in http://pastie.org/3741268 20:56:04 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 20:56:31 jasox: (animal-genes animal) 20:56:36 hefner: hey, great! I hadn't seen that before, thanks! 20:56:36 Sikander: you can also check my lame chess interface https://github.com/stassats/clim-chess 20:57:25 stassats`: thanks as well! I'll have a good look at these programs 20:57:31 Sikander: lines 624 and 678 provide an example of how to communicate with the app via messages from another thread. 20:57:55 skyopomp, no line 3, this (labels ((angle (genes x) 20:57:59 :S 20:58:16 jasox: yes. LABELS defines a local function. 20:58:24 thus the initial value of genes is (animal-genes animal) 20:58:26 clhs labels 20:58:26 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm 20:58:30 stassats`: that's cool, I didn't know about that (or maybe I forgot) 20:58:37 hefner: thanks, that should really help me! 20:58:43 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: Zzzz] 20:59:56 -!- Phooodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:00:04 i made a video of it recently http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Dv_mNE4AN8 21:00:07 stassats`: since you know quite a bit bout (mc)clim, what are the reasons that you promoted commonqt before? 21:00:11 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:42 sykopomp: thanks 21:01:07 stassats`: hah, a mcclim error in the middle of the demo! :) 21:01:21 Sikander: mcclim is slow, buggy and lacks critical features (like unicode keyboard input) 21:01:50 *hefner* guesses you dragged outside the window, got a nil sheet (or whatever) in the event, tried to do something that wouldn't work. or mcclim tried to do something that wouldn't work. 21:01:52 stassats`: but commonqt is the more "low-level" gui approach, right? 21:02:11 stassats, sounds like someone needs to patch McCLIM! 21:02:11 i had my share of bugs with commonqt, but i got a much more complete experience with it 21:02:52 hefner: when the mouse is moved from the appliation pane, and then tried to grab a piece, it crashes 21:03:15 stassats`: well, I have done some simple things with mcclim, but my dream was to do great things, such as add new backends. I haven't progressed much yet, due to time and, oh yes, a job that's not related to cl... 21:03:46 another mcclim bug, pieces are corrupted when i move a circle over them, (a circle because dragging a pixmap was as lousy) 21:04:01 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@94.144.63.7] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:04:38 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181241043.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:04:42 making a qt backend might be fun 21:05:38 stassats`: First need to install libraries... 21:05:54 lolsuper_ [~super_@pool-173-65-234-209.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:54 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@pool-173-65-234-209.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:05:54 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 21:06:01 stassats`: My plans (still on the todo list) were an ncurses backend and a tikz backend 21:06:21 better to do one, but a good one 21:06:27 stassats`: i did get somewhere with ncurses, but it's not usable yet. 21:07:00 stassats`: I agree 21:07:19 stassats`: I wasn't going to work on them at the same time. 21:07:41 stassats`: why qt and not (say) gtk? 21:09:41 had more preference for qt, first thing i tried and it worked most of the time 21:10:14 (mcclim was my first experience with writing GUI) 21:10:16 I was briefly interested in trying ecl (or rather eql). any thoughts on that? 21:10:55 haven't tried 21:11:04 ok 21:11:07 anyone ever use ECL in C++ mode? 21:11:32 commonqt seems to be the only thing which is somewhat maintained 21:11:34 -!- kenanb [~user@94.54.237.227] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:11:57 stassats`: wouldn't commonqt be a good place to start for an mcclim backend? 21:12:33 *hefner* suspects someone sufficiently comfortable with commonqt to make that work wouldn't have any remaining need for a mcclim backend 21:12:35 perhaps, i don't know what it takes for a mcclim backend 21:12:42 i know i'm not coming back 21:13:01 Sikander: there was some work on a gtk backend at some point 21:13:31 i'm accumulating some convince layers upon qt as i go, maybe in the end it'll grow into something 21:13:34 Ralith: It doesn't seem to refresh correctly... 21:13:39 (in like 10 years) 21:13:53 Sikander: likely easier to fix it than to start from scratch. 21:13:59 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 21:14:09 Sikander: if i were to hack on mcclim, i would fix the CLX backend first 21:14:41 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 21:14:42 yeah, me too 21:14:56 it might involve writing xkeyboard support for CLX itself first 21:15:56 stassats`: I was looking into what would be needed to add x rendering extension to clx, so we can finally have anti-aliased drawings in our time... 21:16:06 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-225-204.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:16:45 CLX does XRENDER, McCLIM uses it for fonts if you load mcclim-freetype or mcclim-truetype 21:16:58 hefner: really? why not for drawing lines etc? 21:17:04 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.104.38] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:17:05 and then add native backends for OSX and Windows, now that will shut up all the critics 21:17:30 On to McCLIM immortality! 21:17:36 Sikander: Not for anything else, though. A few years ago, when I cared enough to experiment with it, I was disappointed that my laptop's driver only accelerated the functions needed for text, and everything else was unusably slow, 21:17:48 first, there needs to be produced CLIM-3 21:18:05 s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-228-106.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:27 hefner: were these problems mcclim-related, or really something fundamental? 21:18:48 hefner: fundamental as in clx-related or driver-related? 21:18:58 Sikander: driver related. 21:19:26 hefner: but doesn't xclock also use x rendering? was xclock also unusably slow? 21:20:09 xlock doesn't appear to be demanding 21:20:23 -!- rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: rpg] 21:20:26 stassats`: xClock 21:20:38 yes 21:20:40 Borbie [~user@cmp-d-8k1gx2j.cmp.uea.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 21:20:54 well, unless you're in a time-machine 21:21:02 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:05 don't let me put you off, it'd be worth hacking on. my reservation at the time was that there wasn't an obvious good way to tell whether the driver was going to do the right thing or not, and I didn't want to hear people coming in ranting about how slow McCLIM was because of things outside of my control. 21:21:28 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 21:21:30 xclock -render -update 1 21:22:03 -!- stlifey_ [~stlifey@119.121.180.145] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 21:22:11 for that matter, I bet the linux VM on my macbook doesn't accelerate that stuff. 21:22:22 hefner: Hmmm, do you still have some (semi-)working code from your "project" 21:22:43 -!- Borbie [~user@cmp-d-8k1gx2j.cmp.uea.ac.uk] has left #lisp 21:22:44 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-023.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:24:02 hefner: legend and wikipedia have it that x rendering extension targets the 3d graphics capabilities of video cards. does your linux vm support that? 21:24:34 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-012.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 21:27:18 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-210-127-194.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:00 Sikander: http://vintage-digital.com/hefner/mcclim/render-lines-1.lisp is one thing. I don't remember if it works. There's some other hacky crap in that same directory. 21:28:29 hefner: I will have a look, thanks! 21:29:36 Time for me to retire for the night. Thanks for the tips and pointers to useful code, guys 21:29:51 Talk to you later Sikander 21:30:07 LiamH: Let me know if there's any additional stuff I could help with 21:30:32 bye 21:30:38 -!- Sikander [~userid@54699806.cm-12-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Time to sleep...] 21:30:43 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:31:22 send trucks with money his way 21:31:35 both are out, oh well 21:33:37 MrBusiness [~MrBusines@184.99.7.19] has joined #lisp 21:34:15 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@88.205.227.181] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 21:34:44 <[6502]> stassats`: it's the first time I see representing the chessboard with white and black being on left/right side of the board... they're always top/bottom :-) 21:35:08 -!- lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@80.203.136.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:35:50 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 21:36:12 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-210-127-194.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:36:28 -!- tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 21:36:41 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 21:36:59 you mean in code? 21:37:31 *stassats`* stared at the screenshot for 15 seconds trying to comprehend it 21:38:56 what do I need to use slime-sprof? 21:39:03 sbcl 21:39:33 oh, just found it, it's in contrib 21:39:50 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:40:46 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-210-127-194.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:24 [6502]: i don't know whether it's harder or easier, just the first thing which came to mind, i guess 21:44:21 -!- hagish [~hagish@p5DCBF608.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:45:03 -!- EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:45:27 EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:01 <[6502]> stassats`: I always use the 10x12 one-dimensional array, much easier to handle (only one number as coordinate and as step) 21:47:40 is probe-file sensitive to case wrt the pathnames PATHNAME-TYPE ?? 21:47:45 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:04 it doesn't care 21:48:19 depends on the FS 21:48:54 so probe-file foo.BLARG returns true for an existent file foo.blarg ? 21:49:33 -!- kwmiebach_ [kwmiebach@vps-6813.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:49:49 if it is a valid name for foo.blarg 21:50:58 -!- prip [~foo@host185-125-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:51:02 [6502]: it's not easy to think about 21:52:39 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 21:53:14 joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:37 tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:38 <[6502]> stassats`: http://www.jslisp.org/chess.lisp ... you can see the board in the source... it's just a single array organized in 12 rows and 10 columns... first two rows, last two rows and one column per side are marked as "out" leaving 8x8 useful zone 21:53:59 <[6502]> stassats`: you need two "out" squares to stop the knight 21:54:04 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:54:23 <[6502]> stassats`: but left and right are indeed adjacent so you don't need a 12x12 21:54:36 brcrth [brcrth@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-pwewandizcwbhpzt] has joined #lisp 21:54:46 <[6502]> stassats`: but knight moves are just for example -+8 -+12 -+19 and -+21 21:54:47 i just didn't let him gallop that far in the first place 21:56:01 What's the best lisp implementation for a non-programmer to get started? Or should I learn Scheme instead? (and if so, which implementation? Racket?) 21:56:04 stassats`: so i have a mountpoint from a linux box to a shared SAMBA directory on a windows7 box and (probe-file #P"/mnt/blah/foo.BAZ") returns true b/c #P"/mnt/blah/foo.baz" exists where as probe-file for a similarly named file on a local file-system returns false. 21:56:05 i strove for the clarity in the code, not for efficiency or succintness 21:56:20 mon_key: yes 21:56:32 dos baggage? 21:56:32 mon_key: what does that surprise you? 21:56:57 bah, didn't you know that windows has case-inesentive filenames? 21:57:20 stassats`: i did but it hides them well in many cases 21:57:28 hides? 21:58:17 They are case-preserving but not case-sensitive. 21:58:29 the cases-(in)sensitivity isn't always obvious 21:59:20 it shouldn't be obvious, you should just know windows->case insensitive 21:59:30 and DOS too, for that matter 22:01:16 -!- ainm [~ainm@166.Red-83-33-85.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ((call/cc call/cc) (call/cc call/cc))] 22:01:25 i could probably use some more descriptive way to denote directions 22:01:31 like :up, :down, :left 22:01:41 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 22:02:17 does SBCL on a windows machine probing a local file disregard case. 22:02:39 damn, is it not clear? 22:02:49 I think it's case-preserving 22:02:53 WINDOWS FILE NAMES ARE CASE-INSENSTIVE 22:03:07 mon_key: probing a file checks to see if it exists. Period. End of story. 22:03:12 daniel___ [~daniel@p5082B57A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:28 and it's hard to type insensitive 22:03:29 prip [~foo@host2-127-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 22:03:37 Oh, just probing. sure, doesn't matter. 22:04:00 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:04:05 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:04:24 -!- gilligan_ [~gilligan_@host-089-207-254-219.vipri.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:05:00 -!- zmyrgel [~user@dsl-lprbrasgw1-fe91fa00-218.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:05:19 -!- daniel__ [~daniel@p50829C17.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:05:21 Thanks all. I'd forgotten this windows related crap. 22:05:29 helichopter [~helichopt@104.sub-174-252-53.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 22:06:00 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:07:07 -!- brcrth [brcrth@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-pwewandizcwbhpzt] has left #lisp 22:08:58 -!- schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:08:59 *Xach* hacks and hacks 22:09:06 go Xach 22:09:14 Xach: any glory yet? 22:09:25 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-80-89.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:09:38 schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 22:09:51 stassats`: FWIW Looks like i just found my answer for why digital cameras dump images with file names like: "IMG_5395.JPG" 22:10:19 because IMG_5394.JPG was already taken? 22:11:20 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.Red-88-11-22.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 22:11:24 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:11:51 no glory yet 22:12:10 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-012.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:12:13 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:12:47 stassats`: they are all taken, it loops back around to 1 after 9999 22:13:03 optikalmouse [~user@bas1-toronto07-1176123523.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:13:13 which WebSocket libraries are available and are relatively stable? 22:13:51 none? 22:13:52 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-020.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 22:14:03 optikalmouse: I cheat and use mongrel2 for websockets 22:14:09 gavino has officially become ban-on-sight 22:14:38 jasom: how do you do that? 22:14:47 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.115.235] has joined #lisp 22:15:07 optikalmouse: it's a webserver with websocket support and there are lisp libraries for interfacing with it 22:15:19 optikalmouse: you can be the first to write one! 22:15:27 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-80-89.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:15:45 jasom: another mongrel2 user ? sweet :) 22:16:01 or ask |3b| 22:16:05 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-5-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:16 minion: clws? 22:16:17 clws: clws is a WebSocket server, using IOlib It runs on SBCL and CCL, and is available from Quicklisp or at https://github.com/3b/clws. http://www.cliki.net/clws 22:16:26 clws, and I saw some kind of extension for hunchentoot 22:16:54 I'm just wondering if they implement the whole protocol and have been tested, I don't mind working with unstable libraries, I'd just like to know beforehand :p 22:17:08 galdor: while I've got you, I noticed you switched zmq bindings; why out of curiousity? 22:17:19 because the old one wasn't maintained anymore 22:17:25 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-5-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:17:27 at first I patched it 22:17:38 then I grew tired in trying to get my patch into the official repository 22:17:52 finally I write a new one, fixing a few things I didn't like 22:17:56 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-5-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:18:14 got it; I'll look at switching my stuff over to it (or just use m2cl) 22:19:04 m2cl is kinda experimental; I have a large web app running on it, but it's not stable/documented 22:19:09 (stable regarding to the API) 22:21:11 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 22:28:17 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-19.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:30:26 *maxm-* plans to get into zmq stuff very soon 22:30:43 kilon_alios [~kilon@athedsl-401748.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 22:31:15 hopefully its as good as its manual indicates.. well sure beats writing similar code on my own 22:32:20 *stassats`* waits for an infinitely fast CPU with an infinite amount of memory 22:32:31 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-397638.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:34:23 maxm-: there are upsides and downsides, but so far all the downsides have been mostly in the implementation, not the spec, so it should improve with time 22:35:06 -!- Yuuhi``` [benni@p54839276.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:35:29 -!- albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:35:45 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-402864.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 22:36:15 -!- kilon_alios [~kilon@athedsl-401748.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:37:34 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 22:41:26 ainm [~ainm@166.Red-83-33-85.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:48 jasom: what kind of problems you encountered? for myself I plan to use it to replace a hodge/podge of C++ programs and shell scripts that do my market data collection 22:42:05 lebro [~monx@ool-18bc4a28.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:09 stassats`: the downside is that it uses infinite power 22:42:26 just plug into the sun 22:42:32 ie my curretn design is 1 separate c++ process per data provider, which collects market data, writes them to tick files, as well as has a socket to which clients can connect and subscribe to realtime feed. 22:42:48 stassats`: you'll need a cluster of those 22:43:09 new client just connecting, needs to read tick file up until the current time, then subscribe, then read tickfile and receive stuff on socket until two of them sync up, then just keep with the socket 22:43:24 ticks have seq numbers so it knows when it had synced up 22:44:17 *maxm-* hopes to replace all of that with a nicer system based on zmq 22:44:23 -!- sezo [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has left #lisp 22:44:46 slyrus: something like Betelgeuse would help 22:44:56 ore Eta Carinae 22:45:10 -!- tensorpudding_ is now known as tensorpudding 22:51:33 -!- lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:53:00 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:59:36 maxm-: just things like using assertion for error checking, also some stability issues when you change the number of IO threads from the default 23:00:26 maxm-: it seems to be prefectly reliable for internal-network only use if you don't change the default settings 23:01:21 someone suggested SBCL should be renamed to BOSBCL [balls of steel bank cl] 23:01:39 can't get ecl to load quicklisp here 23:01:49 it fails at deflate 23:03:12 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:03:18 <[6502]> sleeptime... 23:03:24 -!- [6502] [4e0ce009@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.12.224.9] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:03:40 -!- ASau` [~user@95-27-143-11.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:04:53 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:06:04 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:06:32 homie: are you using the latest ecl from git? 23:07:50 gilligan_ [~gilligan_@176.5.253.132] has joined #lisp 23:08:00 i got the one from sourceforge the latest stable as 12.2.1 or so 23:08:07 evening 23:08:28 but your quiclisp client hereover maybe old...... 23:08:44 cause i didn't update it in a while 23:08:57 cause everytime i do i get those pesky errors still in some libs 23:09:17 -!- prip [~foo@host2-127-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:09:21 especially with-timeout stuff for cmucl 23:09:39 where exported special variables have to be quoted 23:09:55 -!- mickbeaver [~mickbeave@216-136-25-2.static.twtelecom.net] has left #lisp 23:09:56 like export '*my-special* else the export fails or so.... 23:10:21 and some stuff like that enables them in cmucl, but does not affect sbcl 23:11:22 skippy, trivial-shell, etc... has those with-timeout stuff.... 23:12:38 and there are some errors, i always get like #+cmu sb-ext: blah ..... 23:12:46 which is nonsense on some of those libraries..... 23:12:55 and which i have to correct everytime 23:13:05 when i do an update with quicklisp.... 23:13:08 therefore i dno' 23:13:15 don't do updates so often.... 23:14:28 You are crazy. 23:15:08 what do you intend with that ? 23:15:46 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:16:07 homie: I don't want anyone watching to think that you are expressing reasonable and true things about anything you are discussing. 23:16:45 Xach: i won't do any desktop-video or so to just convince you...... 23:17:25 tho when i think about it i could maybe put my stuff over to some server..... 23:17:28 hmmmmm 23:17:35 like dropbox 23:18:32 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.115.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:18:55 quicklisp, I must say, is awesome. 23:21:46 prip [~foo@host244-128-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 23:24:25 homie: if you use cl:export, you must give a designator for list of symbols, so if you want to export the symbol *MY-SPECIAL* you must quote it always, unless it evaluates to the symbol *MY-SPECIAL*. 23:24:38 homie: skippy does not have with-timeout 23:30:56 |42| [user@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:3aab] has joined #lisp 23:31:24 ok skippy does not 23:31:34 but there are others which have 23:32:04 Xach: i don't do the exports....it's the libs which do.... 23:32:30 it's not my projects or so....just the bare libs fail...with the export stuff..... 23:32:47 not for sbcl, but for example for cmucl 23:34:19 homie: what library does (export *my-special*)? 23:37:22 -!- jasox [~user@178.239.26.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:39:03 *sellout* wonders if there's a library that does (export *symbol-list*), but (defvar *symbol-list* ) is behind a #+sbcl or something. 23:39:10 IE, I too am curious, homie. 23:40:04 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-402864.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:41:05 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-2-151-118.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 23:43:24 oh man, i already edited the files, and i have to search now too, cause i already restarted my lisp several times now 23:44:17 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-020.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:44:41 look for the *~s 23:45:05 -!- ainm [~ainm@166.Red-83-33-85.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ((call/cc call/cc) (call/cc call/cc))] 23:45:51 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-013.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 23:48:16 -!- xjrn [~chatzilla@c-67-174-244-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:49:40 -!- helichopter [~helichopt@104.sub-174-252-53.myvzw.com] has quit [Quit: Bye] 23:50:02 -!- jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:50:35 jollyG [~JollyG@cpe-075-176-001-037.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:55:14 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-86-54-102.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:55:50 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:56:47 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-013.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:56:57 ok found them 23:57:02 antik/grid/function.lisp 23:57:30 antik/physical-quantities/units.lisp 23:57:58 *row-separator* and *basis-dimensions* 23:58:31 on mine quicklisp dir tree they were not quoted they were just (export *row-separator*) for example