00:00:17 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:00:25 gtg now bbk tmrw bb gn ttyl 00:00:28 -!- TimKack`` is now known as TimKack 00:00:32 -!- mcstar [~mcstar@adsl-89-134-25-21.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Quit: mcstar] 00:01:19 -!- flipout [~user@75-175-116-90.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:02:03 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 00:02:04 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:02:34 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:02:56 -!- TimKack` [~user@c-2ec22dae-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:04:06 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:10 Qworkescence: the fuck? 00:06:22 what do you want CONS to do? 00:06:48 -!- kwmiebach [kwmiebach@vps-6813.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 00:06:57 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@205.233.80.224] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:07:03 kwmiebach [kwmiebach@vps-6813.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 00:07:09 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 00:07:12 scombinator: famous paper title 00:07:16 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.33] has joined #lisp 00:08:03 by baker 00:09:04 nialo`` [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:07 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 00:09:40 -!- Ralith [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:12:07 -!- nialo` [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:16:31 So hash allocation? sharing cons's? 00:18:24 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.236] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:19:01 -!- dnolen` [~user@65-122-15-169.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:19:41 Kynes` [~GTSpyVan1@adsl-75-0-0-149.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:33 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 00:29:17 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 00:30:56 lebro [~monx@ool-18bc4a28.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:01 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:31:24 That paper is screwed if creating a closure requires consing 00:32:22 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 00:36:44 -!- TDT [~user@bouncer.eng.uiowa.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:37:12 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.67] has joined #lisp 00:37:56 scombinator: read. 00:39:35 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:41:14 two- [~textual@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:21 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:46:08 heh jacius wrote a blog post about his expirience on #lisp :-) Worked for a week on a new post, finally done! A Rubyist's Impressions of Common Lisp. http://t.co/tbPt0frK #ruby #lisp 00:47:31 very nicely articulated "common noob decides to learn CL" piece 00:48:05 "smart noob" rather 00:53:21 does anyone happen to have a recentish build of sbcl/fbsd? I'm on 8.2, and libm was upgraded. 00:59:01 *kenanb* just learnt you folks are toxic. 00:59:42 It is not smart to compare a language with an implementation. 01:00:43 kenanb: How'd you find out? Thought we were keeping that on the DL. 01:00:48 -!- impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176314164.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:01:24 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.14.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:04:09 cafesofie [~user@ool-18e4c9a0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:14 -!- scombinator [~user@203.171.40.170] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:06:01 docAvid: that blog post said so,and I believe virtually everything I read. 01:06:13 what are you two blabbering about 01:08:38 It's a very bad blog. He identifies basically three flaws in CL: 1-batteries not included (not realizing consciously that he's speaking about the language, but still mentionning that the implementation he uses has all the batteries included, therefore his point is null). 2- Historical baggage (not realizing that's what allows him to use libraries coming from far in the past, again self contradictory). 3- the community atmosphere, 01:08:38 (not realizing that he's participating to making it foul with his blog). 01:09:15 these are imho just observations of reality.. Can't blame facts for being facts 01:09:26 maxm-: so, better than the random newbie in that he spent six month to learn it, but still with the newbies' defects. 01:10:00 The first two points are not problems of CL, they are advantages of CL. 01:10:15 the third point would be inexistant if he didn't speak of it. 01:11:21 pjb: well some ppl have thin skin.. Nothing wrong with being reasonably polite 01:12:11 maxm-: I'll take his 3rd point at face value, that is his perception of the community. But let's not call them facts. 01:12:53 -!- antonv [5d7d31e8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.232] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:13:18 maxm-: and I don't know what he has to complain about in cll, apart from trolls that are kill filed and should not be read anyways? 01:13:30 Did I just use the word community? By that I mean #lisp and cll. 01:13:41 *maxm-* does not really read his post as complaining, more of "well there are some bad things, but CL is still awesome" post 01:14:01 ThomasH: I don't think it's a perception either. I think it's a meme that is poluting their mind. 01:14:36 It would be better if he just wrote a "CL is awsome" blog. 01:15:09 Look Ma, I can run AI code developped in the 60's and 70's! 01:15:34 I could use that to build upon and implement an intelligent system! 01:15:38 pjb: you should write such a blog :) 01:15:57 Done: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/wang.html 01:16:16 Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:18 Imho nothing wrong with being polite.. /me went through irc warrior phase back in the 90's and its so much better being a chill dude :-) 01:16:48 pjb: damn lispers, so darn fast. going back in time to write the blog posts so they can claim they've done it in the past. smart move. 01:16:56 and with tha blabber, i'm out. night 01:17:07 Night! 01:17:41 maxm-: is "blabbering" a polite term in english? 01:17:59 Wow! First time use of Real World use of SHIFTF. 01:18:14 maxm-: I should change my dictionary then. 01:18:31 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 01:18:52 Quadrescence: what for? 01:19:15 (defun iter-gcd (u v) 01:19:15 (until (zerop v) 01:19:15 (shiftf u v (mod u v))) 01:19:15 u) 01:20:36 s/use of// 01:20:37 minion: Tell Quadrescence about pastebin 01:20:38 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``pastebin''. 01:20:47 minion: Tell Quadrescence about paste 01:20:47 Quadrescence: direct your attention towards paste: lisppaste: lisppaste is an IRC bot that runs under the nickname "lisppaste" and can be used (only for the #lisp IRC channel!) at http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp - or http://paste.lisp.org/ for other destinations 01:20:48 kenanb: it was a joke, I was trying to channel another #lisp personality, who I may be wrongly perceive to use that kind of language in arguments 01:20:53 ThomasH, it is four lines. AFAIK, the typical rule is 4+ lines. 01:20:56 Quadrescence: until? 01:21:09 Xach, it's what you expect it to be 01:21:22 maxm-: ah, pardon me. 01:21:53 Quadrescence: Never let strict policy stand in the way of intelligence and good judgement. 01:22:11 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-2-151-118.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 01:22:28 Xach: for uninstall function of quicklisp, I think it would be convenient if you could add a print statement to indicate uninstall of a package succeeded. 01:22:43 kenanb: Good. Try to improve your reading comprehension skills before force more of your gibbering on us 01:22:56 maxm-: Stop being toxic. 01:23:08 kenanb: I'll check it out. 01:23:10 ThomasH, my judgement was that 4 short lines was better than opening a slow safari browser on this Power PC machine, finding paste.lisp.org, pasting said 4 lines, typing in my nick and captcha, seeing paste.lisp.org not return my link, pressing the back button, looking thru the history, waiting for right-click to show up, copying the link, moving back here and pasting it 01:23:11 kenanb: in case you missed it was also joke :-) just trying to make it obvious who I meant 01:24:47 Xach: I would normally don't expect such thing but quicklisp usually prints something about the state of operation so one thinks nothing happened when a quicklisp function returns nil :) 01:25:26 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:25:59 Quadrescence: I think the advantages of a paste are that we don't have to scroll back to see your code and can annotate it. It facilitates any discussion of the code. 01:26:22 I took that into account, and figured there's not much to say about an UNTIL and SHIFTF 01:26:35 -!- DataLinkDroid [~David@120.154.136.226] has quit [Quit: Bye] 01:27:16 Quadrescence: Maybe not, just a minute while I scroll back and check. 01:28:16 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.67] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:29:34 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.67] has joined #lisp 01:30:40 ThomasH, you can see it here: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/lisp-random/src/1a22bee06177/gcd.lisp#cl-18 01:30:58 -!- schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:31:16 schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 01:32:21 Quadrescence: In all seriousness, can you expand it so that the lambda list is (&rest integers) like the standard function? 01:32:35 kanru` [~user@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:51 ThomasH, yes, good suggestion 01:34:10 Quadrescence: When I'm writing some function that is "standardish" I try to use a lambda list that is identical or as similar as possible. 01:34:39 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 01:35:43 does anyone here use stumpwm? 01:36:25 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:36:49 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:37:00 *maxm-* does 01:37:05 very good piece of software, crashes only once a month, handles dual-head displays like a boss 01:39:44 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-5-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:40:21 still has plenty of bugs tho, taskbar gets out of sync after a few days of use etc.. Its actually very easy to crash by creating / destroying windows rapidly, I finally caught all cases, coz have not crashed for a while 01:41:18 I'll package up my fixes for it some day.. I want to try to merge with another guy who forked it (deep space something window manager), guy implemented dumping floating groups, and other goodies 01:42:34 maxm-: what taskbar, I use it without one, its menubar seemed pretty useless, and i figured i don't desperately need one 01:42:54 was thinking of hacking a more functional menubar though 01:43:41 kenanb: you can use regular taskbar/panel with it, I use xfce4-panel 01:43:45 lxpanel works too 01:44:09 would be using kicker, but lame kde4 removed it 01:44:49 panel is also useful for tray icons holder.. Coz tray icons show statuses and stuff.. ie gnubiff, twitter, other stuff 01:44:49 maxm-: ofc, I just thought there is a taskbar included 01:46:32 -!- retupmoca [~retupmoca@adsl-99-119-128-139.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:49:14 http://paste.lisp.org/display/128776 01:49:21 hmm, i wonder if SBCL or friends need a faster gcd 01:49:58 anyway I'm gone, night folks! 01:50:49 -!- kenanb [~user@94.54.237.227] has quit [Quit: it is 5am] 01:51:55 Quadrescence: this is when it'd be nice to have a cl-library-universe code search 01:52:09 does anything use gcd and what for? 01:52:19 :) 01:53:45 Xach, reducing rationals uses gcd 01:56:05 is there a faster gcd than naive? 01:56:27 Quadrescence: iirc, SBCL's an accelerated binary GCD. 01:56:29 Xach: I want something like that 01:56:36 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-187-243.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:56:58 start with every c/lisp/scheme library out there 01:57:06 pkhuong, I can't really tell from numbers.lisp, which seems to just use ... gcd. 01:57:13 and that'd be a nice function database 01:57:49 then make a C++/Java database that people have to become a member to access 01:58:03 brilliant 02:05:59 springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has joined #lisp 02:13:15 gko [~gko@220.228.255.202] has joined #lisp 02:13:37 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:18:18 maxm: I think that blogpost is toxic... it poisons the mind of uninformed readers with factual errors, sloppy value judgments and patronizing attitude 02:24:20 dnolen [~user@12.130.122.135] has joined #lisp 02:28:46 deech [~user@99.126.111.162] has joined #lisp 02:28:53 -!- deech [~user@99.126.111.162] has left #lisp 02:29:28 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:30:10 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 02:35:14 -!- Kron [~Kron@206.126.93.212] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 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06:33:25 morning Kryztof! 06:33:50 group hug! 06:34:09 \o/ 06:36:27 *splittist* luxuriates in the warmth of the Lisp community 06:38:25 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.115.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:41:41 kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 06:47:08 kilon|2 [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 06:47:19 -!- kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:49:11 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:49:27 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-107-4-57-167.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:49:38 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:55:09 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 06:58:23 snits [~snits@75-167-7-124.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:58:30 tea, anybody? 06:58:50 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.104.38] has joined #lisp 06:59:26 I could go for some tea. 06:59:32 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-022.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 07:00:09 Black, Green or Herbal? 07:00:30 surprise me! 07:00:47 is there an ontopic tea? 07:01:45 we are out of ontopes stassats 07:02:10 I've got some camomile, though. 07:02:53 stassats, okay, here is something on topic: without killing your lisp, try to recover from (set-syntax-from-char #\( #\)) 07:02:54 don't do ontopiates! 07:03:06 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 07:03:21 Quadrescence: i vaccinated my lisp, so it's immune to such things in the first place 07:03:42 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: .] 07:03:54 (ql:quickload :stassats-vaccination) 07:04:00 ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-107-070-026.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:04:14 Ralith: Have some Mint-Thyme tea 07:04:47 *Ralith* siip 07:05:45 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 07:06:24 Quadrescence: would that make lisp immune to me? 07:06:36 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 07:06:53 you tell me, doctor 07:07:11 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-210-133-134.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:09:29 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:10:20 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.12.222] has joined #lisp 07:10:22 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.12.222] has quit [Changing host] 07:10:22 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 07:13:00 stassats: i must've searched for the wrong terms. wasn't at all sure what words to look for either. 07:13:10 sacho_ [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 07:14:51 -!- flip212 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:15:08 madnificent: i used "open ports below 1024 permission" 07:15:30 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 07:16:08 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:16:25 stassats: probably smarter than searching for webserver stuff. i was hoping to encounter a blog post (which was where i assumed i read it) about web servers and non-root. but that obviously got me at port forwarding. 07:17:34 metaphysician [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 07:19:17 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-252.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:22:48 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-184-245.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:23:51 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-184-245.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:28:24 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 07:30:13 madnificent: did you look at http://yaws.hyber.org/privbind.yaws yet? 07:30:29 madnificent: that is what is linked from the hunchentoot docs. if you find somethingbetter, let me know. 07:35:19 H4ns: yes, but only after stassats had told me to look at the Hunchentoot docs. it's a nice writeup as it's not only linux. 07:37:27 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 07:37:32 clintm [~clintm@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:37:37 willian [~god@218.80.252.254] has joined #lisp 07:37:56 Hi,everybody 07:38:59 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:39:16 -!- dim [~dim@prometheus.naquadah.org] has left #lisp 07:40:30 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 07:40:56 dim [~dim@prometheus.naquadah.org] has joined #lisp 07:41:00 Who know some famous Lisp subjects? 07:41:24 willian: Can you be more specific? 07:42:03 willian: if that question is about people, look at http://lisp-univ-etc.blogspot.com/ 07:42:06 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-064-188-009.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:42:23 if it's about programming areas, AI is most famous, I believe 07:43:45 good morning 07:43:58 salut 07:44:04 good morning mvilleneuve 07:44:04 I wouldn't be surprised if the question was about projects 07:44:37 for projects it'd be ITA, reddit, and pg's thing, i'd say 07:45:28 Meronus: I have learning Lisp with two years,but i don't understand the essence of Lisp. 07:46:00 bbirec_ [~bbirec@119.202.82.67] has joined #lisp 07:46:20 william: that's even more abstract :) I have no idea what the essence of Common Lisp is, either. Can you tell me a famous subject of some other language? 07:47:07 the essence of lisp is to make the ones who mastered smug and weenie 07:47:10 Neronus: well, TMTOWTDI in perl? 07:47:31 the essence of perl is to scare children 07:47:59 Meronus: i also learned C and C++, these are very simply. 07:48:02 stassats: Certainly worked in your case :) 07:48:21 then the essence of lisp is twofold, IMHO: Flexibility and code-as-data 07:48:52 you could go meta: the essense of lisp is lisp. 07:49:04 perl and lisp are just extreme examples on the syntax dimension ... _all_ syntax in perl, and nearly no syntax in lisp 07:49:55 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-107-4-57-167.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:49:56 if you're playing with Lisp to generate code for another language, what are some approaches to pretty-printing the output? There's Chapter 30 in Practical Common Lisp, but I'm wondering... are there other common approaches as well? 07:50:09 Maybe, C++ is complications 07:51:27 I have to go, I'm sorry. I have to get some work done today. 07:51:28 Have fun 07:51:54 robot-beethoven: what's your internal representations? perhaps print-object (or what's the method called) is the best way to go ... 07:54:16 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-022.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:54:17 right now the structure is just nested lists 07:55:02 sort of a parse tree 07:55:04 hm, so you'll need something that understands each level of these lists 07:55:28 ie. operator precedence, etc 07:56:18 nha [~prefect@dhcp-15-224.math.tu-berlin.de] has joined #lisp 07:56:25 I'm just doing HTML right now, so it's pretty simple 07:56:28 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 07:57:05 it's for fun and learning (I'll probably use cl-who if I really want to use an HTML generator) 07:57:38 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-107-4-57-167.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:57:45 LAMMJohnson [~JA@cpc3-nrwh9-2-0-cust336.4-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:00:20 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:01:34 -!- kilon|2 [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 08:03:31 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-210-133-134.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:03:41 bjonnh [~bjonnh@147.210.71.83] has joined #lisp 08:04:32 bas_ [~bas@89.184.179.185] has joined #lisp 08:04:32 -!- bas_ is now known as Skola 08:06:33 -!- metaphysician [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:09:08 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-5-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 08:09:33 -!- willian [~god@218.80.252.254] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:13:14 H4ns: it might be interesting to add the sysctl and setcap commands to hunchentoot's manual. it'd probably make it simpler to find it again. 08:14:04 -!- diginet [~diginet@ppp-70-246-16-75.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:16:41 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.168.134] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:17:07 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:17:48 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.Red-88-11-22.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:19:38 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-mjbzzoiflrmsxjve] has joined #lisp 08:20:03 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 08:25:45 milanj [~milanj_@79-101-212-30.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 08:26:50 -!- EyesIsServer [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:28:50 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:31:05 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 08:32:59 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 08:33:33 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 08:34:55 kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 08:38:18 add^_ [~add^_^@m90-141-49-231.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 08:38:50 madnificent: i'm trying to find out what you mean by the word "interesting" precisely. 08:42:06 madnificent: are you saying that you find the process of changing the manual interesting? if so, don't let anything hold you back. make the change and send me a pull request. 08:42:37 EyesIsServer [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 08:42:44 H4ns: it might be interesting for readers of the manual, if the command was in there. 08:42:46 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-155-51.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:43:26 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-210-133-134.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:43:48 madnificent: possible, but it'd also put the burden of keeping the information accurate on me. that is something that i'd want to avoid, given that there already is a canonical page that collects the information, and not only for linux. 08:44:22 madnificent: but as i said, if you send me a pull request, i'll review. 08:47:59 well, hold on 08:48:54 i've just reviewed the manual and found that there is an entry in the toc that is very explicit and that the section in the manual is very clear, too. i don't see a good reason to put linux specific information into that section. 08:49:59 so no, i probably won't add the linux specific commands to the manual unless better reasons to do that are presented. "easier to find" is not compelling, as the info is easy to find, i think. 08:50:03 *blah* 08:53:51 hey, why does it have apache configuration? i use lighttpd! 08:54:31 stassats`: edi put it there :D 08:55:26 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:55:32 stassats`: but i'll gladly replace the apache information by a link to a page that describes how various servers are configured as a proxy. 08:58:56 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-232-253.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:00:07 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:02:04 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:04:01 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-107-4-57-167.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:04:30 mcstar [~mcstar@adsl-89-134-25-21.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 09:09:48 -!- easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:13:04 diginet [~diginet@ppp-70-246-16-75.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 09:14:03 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 09:14:29 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-184-245.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:14:39 -!- lebro [~monx@ool-18bc4a28.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:15:19 -!- diginet [~diginet@ppp-70-246-16-75.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:15:37 can i get an opinion on that macro? is it ok to change the code that way, or the piraxos' is better, since it doesnt mod. the code, but wraps it? 09:16:05 which macro? 09:16:07 mcstar: "that macro"? 09:16:35 mine http://paste.lisp.org/display/128775#1 09:16:44 the other http://paste.lisp.org/display/128766#2 09:17:11 much of you must have gone to sleep when i asked this yesterday 09:17:27 diginet [~diginet@ppp-70-246-16-75.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:42 mcstar: but of course we were right in the context of your problem when we woke up 09:18:11 H4ns: i made the conclusion after i acknowledged that you guys didnt see them 09:18:16 and not just ignored me 09:18:20 i mean yesterday 09:18:27 i wouldn't use either 09:18:28 mcstar: i think we just ignored you. 09:18:50 although i don't know what your macro does 09:19:12 stassats`: the other is cleaner? 09:19:13 stassats`: it was somehow in the context of "a dlambda" 09:19:21 mcstar: I saw your macro, but you already left the channel by then.. Anyway, I could not decipher what its doing at a glance, while with the original version I could do so, with stumbles. 09:19:48 whoa i was not expecting this 09:19:50 <|3b|> is that trying to pretend you have a lisp1? 09:20:02 <|3b|> if so you probably need a real codewalker 09:20:23 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-14-2.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 09:20:32 albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #lisp 09:20:47 |3b|: so is it ok or not ok to patch the code like that? 09:21:08 *|3b|* isn't sure what you mean by 'patch' 09:21:28 <|3b|> if you mean modifying a list passed to a macro (as opposed to modifying a binding), then no 09:21:33 n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@178.47.16.31] has joined #lisp 09:21:40 mcstar: you know, with following lol, you are already in a territory where you cannot go to a general lisp forum and ask if things are "ok" 09:21:43 well, mine works like this: travels on the code tree, and when finds the proper symbol in a car, it will put a funcall in front of it 09:21:44 mcstar: try (cbind ((foo x)) (let ((foo 10)))) 09:21:55 mcstar: if it suits you and works for you and you can read it, then it is ok. 09:22:31 <|3b|> H4ns: i'd add "and you understand how and when it might break" to that 09:22:40 benny [~benny@i577A7E0B.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 09:22:43 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@87.247.12.196] has joined #lisp 09:22:44 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 09:22:49 exactly, which breaks more easily? 09:23:01 i cant know these things, so i want to avoid it 09:23:09 if i know this is bad practice 09:23:16 did you try the form i gave you? 09:23:28 "which of these two things is worse practice?" 09:23:32 it wont work with that 09:23:34 <|3b|> the first version looks actively broken if i read it right 09:24:09 <|3b|> if it modifying the list passed to the BODY arg of the macro 09:24:22 <|3b|> the second version looks like it builds a new list, which is ok 09:24:25 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 09:24:31 mcstar: imho being able to write "clever" code is ok. You can reuse that ability when you will actually need it. When writing macros, and code intended to be read by others, "clear" is of greater importance then "clever" 09:25:32 |3b|: it makes a new list from the old, that was bound to 'body', and laters rebinds it to 'body' 09:25:40 so the list is new 09:27:14 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has joined #lisp 09:30:09 espadrine [~thaddee_t@acces2373.res.insa-lyon.fr] has joined #lisp 09:30:34 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-189-75.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:31:35 nikodemus [~nikodemus@188-67-156-31.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 09:31:35 stassats`: i believe your example breaks the original macro too 09:31:51 do you? 09:32:05 mcstar: it does not break the macro (macro is already broken) 09:32:21 mcstar: stassats` is right and presents a reason why what you are trying to do is possible, but very very difficult. Also you don't need to write your own recursion, I think. For your version substitute would do :) 09:32:54 <|3b|> not really hard, you just need a proper code walker (preferably one already written) 09:33:20 but since it can be written without using a code walker 09:33:25 Will the code-walker also catch all the new binding forms I introduce with my very own macros? 09:33:44 stassats`: True, it can. 09:33:56 thanks for confirmation 09:36:13 ok, lesson is that i should not concerns myself with macros, until im finished with OnLips 09:36:25 mcstar: So, to answer the beginning question: the macro that wraps the code is simpler, does what you want, works in all the cases I think you intend. 09:36:52 k 09:36:53 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@121.11.118.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:36:55 <|3b|> Neronus: which is 'wraps the code'? 09:37:03 The one using flet 09:37:16 mcstar: you should also read a few proper lisp books. 09:37:23 <|3b|> Neronus: not in that paste? 09:37:32 there are two pastes 09:37:34 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:37:52 <|3b|> ah, sorry... missed that 09:37:58 128766#2 wraps the code 09:38:57 sezo [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 09:39:09 <|3b|> yeah, adding a flet seems much more reasonable 09:40:01 |3b|: now i know what you meant by 'first version' 09:40:21 that code IS broken, it does not work 09:40:25 at all 09:40:29 <|3b|> mcstar: sorry about the confusion :/ 09:41:07 stlifey [~stlifey@121.11.118.133] has joined #lisp 09:41:41 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 09:41:47 <|3b|> 128775#1 is broken too though, consider (cbind ((foo x)) (foo foo)) 09:42:45 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:43:05 <|3b|> as well as all the problems caused by special forms and macros 09:43:09 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:44:41 -!- bjonnh [~bjonnh@147.210.71.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:46:29 . 09:46:31 I've been trying to figure out why (#_winId (#_QApplication::desktop)) fails on windows and maybe write a patch, but I'm stuck. if someone can take a look I pasted repl session and backtrace http://paste.lisp.org/display/128778 09:47:01 -!- sacho_ [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:48:05 sezo: smoke apparently has the return value as "HWND__" and commonqt does not know how to unbarshall it 09:48:09 *|3b|* suspects something is trying to interpret a HWND as a pointer to something ueufl as opposed to an opaque value 09:48:21 <|3b|> *something useful 09:48:32 winid returns "typedef WId Platform dependent window identifier." 09:50:16 killerboy [~mateusz@62.152.141.255.dsl.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has joined #lisp 09:50:26 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-210-133-134.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:50:49 so it doesn't know how to convert HWND pointer to a int? if I recall it just returns an int on other platforms 09:50:51 sezo: try (qt::def-unmarshal (value "HWND__" type) value) 09:51:43 sezo: if it works it will return your HWND as foreign pointer.. I don't know CCL trick to convert it to unsigned-byte, in SBCL it will be (sb-impl::sap-int ptr) 09:51:59 I got this. # 09:52:45 sezo: now try the desktop call again 09:52:53 same thing 09:53:27 msmith2 [~msmit297@adsl-98-92-215-204.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 09:53:56 weird, does (gethash "HWND__" qt::*static-unmarshallers*) return stuff? 09:54:11 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.208] has joined #lisp 09:54:13 yes. 09:54:19 returns a function 09:54:48 same one I got earlier 09:56:02 can anyone tell me if its possible to export variable defined with defparameter from a package? 09:56:06 if I restart SLIME, and without your def-unmarshal call, that gethash call returns NIL 09:56:21 <|3b|> msmith2: you export symbols from packages, not variables 09:56:55 <|3b|> msmith2: it doesn't matter how that symbol is used 09:57:03 sezo: yea it you actually need HWND__ as the integer that smoke refers to it to 09:58:58 ccl:%ptr-to-int converts converts pointer to integer 09:59:15 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.208] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:59:17 |3b|: can you do this: defparameter *myvar* then export it with (:export :*myvar*)? 09:59:27 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.208] has joined #lisp 09:59:42 if so I haven't been able to 10:00:11 <|3b|> msmith2: need to see a full example to tell what is wrong 10:01:00 sezo: sorry I got to go, but basically something is wrong with smoke, as I have no idea where it gets that HWND__ from.. Sounds as smoke uses groveling to get its types, and kind of screws up on HWND somehow 10:01:06 <|3b|> (use lisppaste or something though, don't paste it here) 10:01:27 -!- anonus [anonymous@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:2cc7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:01:27 -!- PECCU [~peccu@KD106179020073.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:01:32 maxm- ok thanks for trying 10:02:00 PECCU [~peccu@KD106179020073.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:02:16 we need a windows commonqt hacker 10:02:30 stassats hacks on mac from what i understand, me on linux 10:04:55 too bad I'm just a commonqt (and lisp) newbie at this point :). is CommonQt developer in this channel btw? 10:04:58 anonus [anonymous@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:2cc7] has joined #lisp 10:05:36 |3b| thanks, I resolved the issue. although If you could tell me why I would get an name-conflict error when I use defparameter in my a package that would help. Where defparameter is the conflicting name. 10:07:14 <|3b|> i'd guess you are changing packages after they have been used 10:08:17 <|3b|> for example importing symbols from package A into B, using a symbol in B, then exporting a symbol with the same name from A 10:08:49 <|3b|> again, not enough information to really tell what the problem is 10:09:20 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@188-67-156-31.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:10:49 -!- jjkola_work [c064748e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.116.142] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:12:11 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:12:14 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:13:14 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.208] has joined #lisp 10:15:25 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 10:16:06 -!- milanj [~milanj_@79-101-212-30.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:18:20 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 10:18:40 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:24:30 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:24:43 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.208] has joined #lisp 10:25:57 blandest [~blandest@ip4-85-204-33-242.euroweb.ro] has joined #lisp 10:26:00 -!- blandest [~blandest@ip4-85-204-33-242.euroweb.ro] has quit [Client Quit] 10:28:29 [6502] [58959a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.154.87] has joined #lisp 10:28:37 -!- albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:28:54 -!- nha [~prefect@dhcp-15-224.math.tu-berlin.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:29:09 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@62.152.141.255.dsl.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:30:09 <[6502]> yo. I've a question about macros and packages. Suppose (defmacro foo (x) `(blah x)) is added to a package and used from another package, the symbol "blah" in the macro expansion to which package refers? 10:30:13 (format t "insured-id ~A role-name ~A old-responsible-party ~A responsible-party-has-changed-p ~A~%new ~S~%" 10:30:21 damnfuckshit 10:30:35 <[6502]> sorry (defmacro foo (x) `(blah ,x)) 10:30:48 <[6502]> irrelevant to the question, btw 10:31:14 ainm [~ainm@131.Red-79-159-7.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:32:13 -!- MrBusiness [~MrBusines@184.99.7.19] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:34:10 <|3b|> [6502]: package matters when the symbol is read, and using the macro doesn't cause it to be read again 10:34:14 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:35:31 <|3b|> H4ns: i've gotten in the habit of leaving IRC clients input focus somewhere other than the message sending area as much as possible for just that reason :p 10:37:41 <[6502]> |3b|: so blah is from the macro package, but therefore if the macro expands for example to (macrolet (...)) the user of the macro will have to import also all the names of the local macros defined in the macro expansion? 10:37:43 |3b|: how this happened is: osx sometimes "forgets" that i have swapped cmd and alt, and when it forgets, M-v suddenly becomes cmd-v (paste). hilarity ensues. 10:37:49 *H4ns* shakes fist at apple 10:38:34 <|3b|> H4ns: ah, i guess thats a bit harder to get around 10:38:46 |3b|: i could install linux!!1 10:38:55 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 10:39:05 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 10:39:29 -!- springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:41:04 <|3b|> [6502]: it doesn't matter what the macro expands to 10:42:40 <|3b|> when you READ some source (as happens when loading or compiling a file, etc), it takes some text and any defined packages, etc, and returns a list containing symbols 10:42:52 <|3b|> those symbols are distinct objects 10:43:00 <[6502]> |3b|: I think I understood... reading has already been performed and so symbols are already assigned to packages, I was just considering that quasiquoting in macro expansion is hard to use with anaphoric macros because the created symbols are in the package of the macro, not in the one of the user of the macro 10:43:28 <|3b|> for example the list (defmacro foo (x) `(blah ,x)) contains the symbols DEFMACRO, FOO, X, BLAH 10:43:56 <[6502]> x is not a problem because comes from the user and is just copied in the expansion 10:44:07 <|3b|> a call to that macro, for example the list (FOO BAR) contains the symbols FOO and BAR 10:44:28 <[6502]> the expansion however contains blah from macro package 10:44:31 <|3b|> right 10:45:07 <[6502]> this is annoying for example if expansion should be a macrolet form or a let form introducing a symbol for the user 10:46:12 <|3b|> if you want symbols in the expansion to be visible to callers, for example in an &body arg, then yes, you need to export them (or use ::) 10:46:13 <[6502]> I just wanted to know if something special was provided in CL for these cases (where a macro needs to inject symbols to be used by the user of the macro) 10:46:45 -!- gko [~gko@220.228.255.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:47:18 *|3b|* supposes you could intern symbols into *PACKAGE* as well, but that would probably cause as many problems 10:47:28 <[6502]> using (defmacro foo (x) `(,(intern "blah") ,x)) should work 10:48:01 H4ns: fwiw, it was a suggestion. it's fair not to want to add it :) 10:48:06 <|3b|> for example suppose you define a few local functions, and users mostly use only 1 or 2 and forget the rest, and try to define their own functions with those names 10:48:54 <|3b|> (though they would still have the same problem if they blindly imported all the symbols from the macro's package) 10:49:04 H4ns: I'm not sure how you've swapped your keys, but I use a thing called "KeyRemap4MacBook" to get the layouts I like in emacs/terminal versus elsewhere, and have never had any trouble with it. 10:49:57 hefner: i'll check that out, thanks. i'm using the system-supplied control panel to reassign caps/cmd/alt, but that apparently is buggy. 10:50:14 <[6502]> |3b|: ok... thanks for the explanation... i need more thinking about this issue. I think better on a full stomach :-) (i.e. lunchtime for me... bye) 10:50:45 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:50:49 -!- [6502] [58959a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.154.87] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:50:52 milanj [~milanj_@79-101-212-30.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 10:53:56 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.208] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:54:08 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.208] has joined #lisp 10:55:01 |3b| H4ns: is there a known issue with exporting symbols whose names begin and end with an asterisk? 10:55:15 <|3b|> msmith2: symbols are symbols 10:55:45 <|3b|> and symbols with ** are pretty common 10:56:14 msmith1 no issue at all 10:56:40 well, I can export foo but get an unbound error when I try to export *foo*, both having the same definition 10:56:51 <|3b|> then you exported it wrong 10:56:59 <|3b|> symbols don't need to name anything to be exported 10:57:55 |3b| not quite sure if I understand your last statement 10:58:13 <|3b|> packages deal with symbols, not variables or functions or anything else 10:58:22 <|3b|> symbols are actual objects in CL 10:58:42 how do you export? do you write (export *foo*) it should be (export '*foo*) 10:59:03 stassats yep, that's what I did 10:59:12 *|3b|* would argue it should be exported in a DEFPACKAGE and not with either (export ...) form 10:59:15 export is a function 10:59:34 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:59:52 well, I used :export in defpackage 11:00:08 how did you use it? 11:00:47 is DEFPACKAGE CL:DEFPACKAGE? 11:01:19 do you evaluate it in a package which doesn't have CL used? 11:02:08 stassats: I'll paste it one sec 11:03:09 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 11:04:23 stassats: crap, nevermind its working now 11:06:07 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:10:44 stassats |3b| I was trying to do this, :export :*name* 11:11:06 when I just do this :export *name* it works 11:11:25 can't be 11:11:43 try :export *name* again 11:12:34 msmith2: could it be that when you got the failure in the first place, you forgot to evaluate the defvar/defparameter for *foo*? 11:12:37 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 11:13:23 H4ns: that can be only when defpackage is not cl:defpackage 11:13:53 stassats`: aha? 11:14:06 well anyway. 11:14:37 H4ns: with cl:defpackage it doesn't matter whether it's *foo*, :*foo*, is it defparametered or not 11:14:39 -!- poindont` [~user@cloudbovina.bovinasancta.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:15:39 statssats` H4ns here is the code http://paste.lisp.org/+2RD7/1 11:16:01 why does it use :cl-user? 11:16:06 <|3b|> you don't need to :use :cl-user (and there is no point to do so anyway) 11:16:08 stassats`: right. but defpackage does not care whether the symbol that is exported is actually bound. so if you export some symbol that is unbound in the package created, you'll see an unbound error. 11:16:10 -!- antifuchs [foobar@care.boinkor.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:16:37 -!- _root_ [~Scalable@li252-14.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:16:40 stassats`: my psychic debugging attempt targeted towards that situation. user renamed variable in source, but failed to evaluate that. 11:16:47 H4ns: well, i assumed that msmith2 knows what he's talking about and said that defpackage signalled an error 11:16:56 but, apparently, he doesn't 11:17:28 stassats` I know exactly what I'm talking about 11:17:42 msmith2: no. 11:17:49 <|3b|> msmith2: you should always use ** with variables defined with DEFVAR or DEFPARAMETER, since they have side effects on that name in addition to creating a variable 11:18:13 -!- koisoke [xef4@epilogue.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:18:24 wat? 11:18:38 -!- DrForr [~jgoff@li165-209.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:18:54 -!- shachaf [~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:19:07 H4ns: making it special, although that's really what "creating a variable" means for special variables 11:19:13 yakov [~yakov@95-28-253-132.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 11:19:20 -!- vhost- [~vhost@robodance.kyleterry.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:19:26 sure, yeah, but what's it with the "**" 11:19:29 *H4ns* is confused. 11:19:49 well, that's earmuffs 11:19:50 <|3b|> put ** on the names, like *name* 11:20:27 -!- Inode_ [~inode@time.uk.chromedpork.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:20:35 yeah. but the earmuffs have no meaning to common lisp. they are just visual clues 11:20:43 <|3b|> right 11:20:47 you can also (defvar 1j 291) and it would be as legal. 11:21:07 <|3b|> that was a suggestion for user benefit, not compiler benefit :) 11:21:32 <|3b|> 'should' as opposed to 'must' 11:21:50 naiv_ [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-217-170.w109-208.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:22:01 right. it is more the "they have side effects on that name" thing that i've stumbled over 11:22:16 *|3b|* was trying to simplify to to avoid going into details about declaiming thing special, an what that means, etc 11:22:29 not in #lisp! 11:23:07 you bro you must put earmuffs on your specials because that is how it is done man 11:23:27 antifuchs [foobar@care.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 11:26:55 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:28:02 -!- naiv_ is now known as naiv 11:28:12 -!- antifuchs [foobar@care.boinkor.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:30:28 jollyG [~JollyG@KennPAT.uncc.edu] has joined #lisp 11:30:47 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:31:28 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.208] has joined #lisp 11:32:46 koisoke [xef4@epilogue.org] has joined #lisp 11:34:42 -!- mrSpec 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[~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 11:56:19 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 11:58:54 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:59:07 -!- zxq9 [~zxq9@FL1-119-244-165-111.okn.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:59:31 -!- yakov [~yakov@95-28-253-132.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:01:00 zxq9 [~zxq9@FL1-119-244-165-111.okn.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 12:01:36 ivan-kan` [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 12:01:55 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:03:00 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:05:40 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:27 -!- msmith2 [~msmit297@adsl-98-92-215-204.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:07:53 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:08:49 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paradoja [~paradoja@acceso-cmp174-159.lpa.idec.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:58 Hello #lisp 13:01:22 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@dsl-stat-43-17.mmc.at] has joined #lisp 13:02:46 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@dsl-stat-43-17.mmc.at] has quit [Client Quit] 13:02:54 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@dsl-stat-43-17.mmc.at] has joined #lisp 13:03:29 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-mjbzzoiflrmsxjve] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:07:35 kushal [~kdas@114.143.161.86] has joined #lisp 13:07:35 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.161.86] has quit [Changing host] 13:07:35 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 13:08:15 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:09:07 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:10:28 -!- kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 13:12:04 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:12:58 -!- schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:13:25 schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 13:13:26 -!- sacho [~sacho@92-247-208-87.spectrumnet.bg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:14:16 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:15:02 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 13:16:39 impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176314164.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:24:09 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.208] has joined #lisp 13:25:54 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 13:32:54 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:32:58 BigHugeDog1 [~QQ@221.0.11.215] has joined #lisp 13:33:48 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:35:49 -!- BigHugeDog [~QQ@221.0.11.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:36:01 -!- shifty [~user@114-198-85-202.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:37:03 -!- ivan-kan` [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:37:52 shifty [~user@114-198-85-202.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 13:38:32 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-5-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:41 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:39:28 The internet says that we need to be less rude to the newbies until they outgrow frothing monologues about setq and predicates. Take notice! 13:40:06 oh that internet 13:40:41 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.208] has joined #lisp 13:40:47 ahinki_ [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 13:41:02 I just read this internet: http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/ru9j7/a_rubyists_impressions_of_common_lisp/ 13:41:05 http://troll.me/images/khgkjhgk/oh-internet-you-so-crazy-thumb.jpg pic related 13:41:06 sbinetd [~sbinetd@94-193-244-239.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:41:30 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:41:39 -!- ahinki_ is now known as ahinki 13:41:43 why should i care about rubyists, again? 13:42:45 (The rubyist says that CL community is somewhat "toxic".) 13:43:04 schmatzlisp! 13:43:05 like the britney spears song? 13:43:06 lol 13:43:27 that's what they usually write in blogs 13:43:48 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:44:05 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 13:44:54 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 13:45:18 I'm not sure I agree but, yes, they keep writing that thing. 13:46:29 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 13:46:43 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:46:43 oGMo [~rpav@66.219.59.103] has joined #lisp 13:47:08 Perhaps successful lispers have self-esteem issues that permit them to endure the abuse during their larval phase. Incompatible with a culture of precious snowflake rockstars. 13:47:24 *hefner* is being bad 13:47:46 i just read books 13:47:59 mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 13:48:28 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 13:48:43 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:48:43 -!- milanj [~milanj_@79-101-212-30.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:49:35 *hefner* imagines a Lulu-published collection of negative lisp community rants 13:50:13 "#lisp didn't help me do my homework" 13:50:18 what is Lulu? 13:50:34 google it! 13:51:53 see, that's exactly the kind of unhelpful attitude 13:52:04 it would be much better to slap Neronus with a wet fish, which he could then eat 13:52:23 *Neronus* is vegetarian and doesn't eat fish 13:52:24 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:52:28 When I was first starting Lisp, I found #lisp to be pretty friendly and helpful. I've always wondered what it is that drives these people to rant. 13:52:58 mh, exciting 13:53:02 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:53:23 Maybe since it was my first language, I didn't have any expectations that I insisted on projecting on CL that would cause friction during discussion. 13:53:36 -!- sbinetd is now known as _sbinetd 13:54:11 -!- _sbinetd is now known as sbinetd 13:54:12 albacker [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:13 -!- albacker [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:54:13 albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #lisp 13:54:16 I could go on about the culture of entitlement, but... maybe there's something in that #lisp grew out at least partly of a culture of education, as in the "teach a man to fish" kind of thing. If you come to an IRC channel expecting a one-line answer to a one-line question, and instead you get challenged on your basic assumptions, it might be normal to react in some way 13:54:18 I asked yesterday whether slime can open inspect windows in _new xemacs_ instances, and got 3 "yes" answers. But (via other channels) I also got the answer "no, that's just another emacs window". which is right? 13:54:20 -!- sbinetd [~sbinetd@94-193-244-239.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:54:44 and regarding the blog post, how about a #friendly-lisp ;P 13:54:46 new xemacs instances? 13:54:48 *|3b|* thought you asked for new windows 13:54:57 <|3b|> and people still use xemacs? 13:54:59 that's pretty bizarre 13:55:19 |3b|: some are using xemacs and cmucl! 13:55:24 well, I mostly meant "an independent X11 window that can be moved around at will", whatever the solution is. 13:55:26 (sorry, rtoym) 13:55:28 flip214: your terminology seems garbled. you should probably say a "new frame" 13:55:38 there are different effects: some people might react extremely positively, acknowledging that their assumptions might have been wrong. Some might say "screw this bunch of toxic rejects" 13:55:50 flip214: it's called "frame" 13:55:56 one other effect is that the harsh but fair environment here keeps the oldbies interested, at least partly 13:55:57 flip214: and my emacs does just that 13:56:13 jdz: is that an independent X11 window, that's controlled by my window manager? 13:56:17 flip214: no, slime doesn't have such thing, except for C-x 4 . 13:56:18 yes 13:56:18 flip214: yes 13:56:18 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-218-223-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:56:26 err, 5 13:56:37 n1nt4tsn0k|1 [~nitnatsno@178.47.212.124] has joined #lisp 13:56:40 so I've got 2 yes and 1 no again ;/ 13:56:41 flip214: but it shares data with the other xemacs frames 13:56:44 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:56:49 stassats`: C-x 5 2 13:56:57 sbinetd [~sbinetd@94-193-244-239.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:56:58 jdz: no, C-x 5 . 13:57:01 try it! 13:57:05 oh, the dot! 13:57:12 Kryztof: maybe they don't know about http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html in Blubland. 13:57:33 flip214: you should also keep track to which question you receive the answers 13:57:50 two "yes" were directed at "is that an independent X11 window, that's controlled by my window manager?" 13:58:06 my "no" is to whether slime can use such thing 13:58:16 no, it can't, except for C-x 5 . 13:59:03 ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has joined #lisp 13:59:07 I'm asking because I implemented an "inspect in new gvim window" for slimv, and the slimv maintainer says "if it's not in slime, it's not a priority" ;/ 13:59:31 sykopomp: I believe that there are IRC channels which effectively behave as first-line support 13:59:31 flip214: check the variable special-display-buffer-names (well, i don't know what it's called in xemacs, sorry) 13:59:37 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@178.47.16.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:59:48 flip214: but should be the same 13:59:54 so, there's slime-edit-definition-other-frame, but nothing similar for inspect, correct? 13:59:55 Kryztof: the Ruby community is so bogged down by it that they have a honeypot channel. 14:00:05 i don't like vim, so, in spite, i won't make changes to slime for this effect! 14:00:11 #ruby is a honeypot. #ruby-lang is the "real" channel. 14:00:15 stassats`: ;[ 14:00:56 I quite like it, because I can split various before/during/after inspect displays off and align them however I like 14:01:29 (well, i'm not the only who can commit to slime) 14:01:50 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA3255B.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:01:52 milanj [~milanj_@93-86-54-102.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 14:01:57 minion: questions? 14:01:58 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``questions''. 14:02:00 Now I'm trying to find out how to pass the SLDB state from a swank connection to another, to make inspect-in-frame with another instance 14:02:03 minion: asking questions? 14:02:03 does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you? 14:02:07 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp 14:02:09 minion: stupid tin can! 14:02:10 does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you? 14:02:15 Kryztof: as I see it, the main problem is the political conception of "community", wherein the newbies feel that they are doing us a favour by joining(as if #lisp were a tribe) so they feel entitled to detailed explanations 14:02:19 i like nick levine's USING macro, but it breaks slime in that arglist hints are not working for functions in the USING body. it seems that slime does hints lookups only relative to a package, which is determined by (slime-current-package). any thoughts how one could enhance that? 14:02:39 minion: chant 14:02:39 MORE THE THEY 14:02:59 leo2007 [~leo@114.247.10.71] has joined #lisp 14:03:09 <|3b|> i thought the problem was too much unwanted detail? 14:03:17 H4ns: change slime-find-buffer-package-function 14:03:23 fe[nl]ix: I think the problem is the conception of lispers as an oppressed underclass 14:03:41 fe[nl]ix: which, as you say, leads to people thinking they're doing us a favor by joining 14:04:14 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 14:04:46 stassats`: that much i figured. but with USING, i'd need to have a slime-find-buffer-packageS-function as would be more than one package that needs to be searched. 14:05:17 ...as _there_ would be... 14:05:34 -!- mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:05:54 you can modify the way arglists for using are displayed 14:06:00 dlowe: that droll, "oppressed underclass" :D 14:06:12 but you'd have to understand how arglist display works 14:06:19 I was about to suggest making a temporary package on the lisp side which used all the using packages 14:06:21 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 14:06:49 Kryztof: that was a thought that i had. sounds a bit heavy handed, though. 14:07:22 *|3b|* doesn't remember needing much to make package-local-nicknames work with slime, just binding *package* in 1 or 2 more places 14:07:24 although you can constract a very smart function for slime-find-buffer-package-function 14:07:28 construct 14:08:04 H4ns: can you give me an example of how this USING is used? 14:08:11 |3b|: yeah. if there exists a package that is the symbol resolution scope, things are easy. USING breaks that. 14:08:47 stassats`: (using (:cxml :json) (with-element "foo" (with-json-object "bar" ..))) 14:09:05 ok, i now see the problem 14:09:35 lindes [~user@p4FF1C681.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:09:42 *stassats`* subscribes to the non-likers of USING 14:09:46 USING may not be such a good idea in the end. 14:11:18 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:11:28 <|3b|> seems like a safer/more general version of the foo:(...) syntax 14:12:07 how safer? 14:12:22 <|3b|> doesn't intern things in other packages 14:12:23 *sellout* is currently pro-USING. 14:12:25 H4ns: do you have a link to USING? "nick levine using" and similar variants aren't yielding anything obvious. :) 14:12:32 but it interns all the symbols into the current package 14:12:47 <|3b|> foo:() interns into foo if i understand correctly 14:13:02 sykopomp: http://enlivend.livejournal.com/36650.html 14:13:10 thanks! 14:13:38 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@static.146.73.9.176.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:13:39 chiguire|m [~chiguire@190.39.219.179] has joined #lisp 14:13:39 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@190.39.219.179] has quit [Changing host] 14:13:39 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 14:13:43 |3b|: well, i don't like both! 14:13:56 How about package local nicknames? 14:13:58 *|3b|* isn't arguing in favor of either 14:14:03 *|3b|* uses package-local-nicknames 14:14:12 portably? 14:14:16 Neronus: not currently a portable solution. 14:14:37 *|3b|* and only knows about foo:() because i got bored and tried to break it when it was added to sbcl 14:14:39 H4ns: I know. Makes me sad 14:14:58 <|3b|> portability is as-yet undetermined... it isn't widely ported though :( 14:15:01 Neronus: there's prototypes for both CCL and SBCL, though :) 14:15:35 trivial-local-nicknames, then? 14:15:48 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-189-75.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:15:53 https://github.com/3b/package-local-nicknames 14:15:54 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0BC2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:17:04 -!- paradoja [~paradoja@acceso-cmp174-159.lpa.idec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:17:10 H4ns: potentially, slime can deal with it, but i don't think there's anything which you can easily hook into 14:18:13 for the sake of the future, we must have package-local nicknames 14:18:43 -!- Skola [~bas@89.184.179.185] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:19:26 Having local symbol aliases would be nice, as well. 14:19:40 we must use them widely and promiscuously, until the laggards are shamed into implementing them compatibly. 14:19:43 maybe just get rid of symbols. :) 14:19:55 it's for the children! 14:20:01 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 14:20:13 stassats`: thanks! 14:20:14 The essence of lisp is code that can be manipulated as data. What would you use instead of symbols? 14:20:33 or just institute Package Police which makes sure that all packages are different and concise 14:20:39 I've heard this anti-symbol rhetoric and I don't buy it 14:20:46 dlowe: strings! 14:21:00 stassats: sounds craptacular 14:21:00 oh wait, symbols are strings 14:21:02 so long as strings are not composed of characters! 14:21:27 being composed of characters is okay, but being a vector isn't. 14:21:30 So we need to get rid of strings too 14:21:48 they shouldn't be vectors, either. Nor sequences of characters. 14:21:55 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.196.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:22:00 lists have bad performance, so we should remove those from the language as well. 14:22:05 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.158.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:22:09 the discussions here in the last month make me think that there's soon to be a common lisp2.0 14:22:14 stassats`: hah, that's one solution: a central registry handing out three character package nicknames. I wonder if the existing open source libraries would exhaust that. 14:22:22 flip214: i doubt it. 14:22:22 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-155-51.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:22:25 foom: i agree, let's remove bad performance from the language. 14:22:30 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 14:22:31 flip214: too late. http://arclanguage.org 14:22:36 Too late, dylan. 14:22:45 hefner: and there should be a registering fee 14:22:52 I will collect the registering fee 14:22:55 As a community service 14:22:55 sykopomp: I took a look at that, but it has to few (). 14:23:06 -!- geek [~geek@unaffiliated/geek] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:23:08 *Neronus* registers for XXX - experience tells that it brings money 14:23:10 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-064-188-009.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:23:22 Neronus: no, you're confusing XXX with $$$ 14:23:49 damn :( 14:23:53 everytime 14:23:57 Neronus: with three letters there's "sex", and perhaps ".xXx" and so on 14:24:09 I think I'd take "TLA" ;) 14:24:19 -!- bbirec_ [~bbirec@119.202.82.67] has quit [Quit: bbirec_] 14:24:21 or cl\0, ql\0 etc 14:24:30 flip214: periods don't count as characters? 14:24:31 then I take cve. 14:24:42 if \0 counts, then so do periods 14:24:45 what if you made editor local nicknames? 14:24:51 jdz: sorry, was in domain-name land with my thoughts 14:25:02 That's actually an option, yeah. 14:25:18 you can write "ht:", slime will expand it to hunchentoot:, and display as "ht:" 14:25:31 davlaps [~davlaps@209.144.63.76] has joined #lisp 14:25:42 stassats`: stuff like that screws with alignment. 14:25:59 have a smarter aligner 14:26:05 and people will still need to read the source outside of the editor :\ 14:26:06 not if you have a Sufficiently Smart Editor which reformats everything for display! 14:26:20 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-155-51.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:26:43 sykopomp: editor can read sources too! 14:26:53 not only write 14:27:01 -!- Jordan_U [~jordan@216.57.70.194] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:27:39 mickbeaver [~mickbeave@216-136-25-2.static.twtelecom.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:41 but if everyone invents their own package-local-nicknames, it will be hard to read 14:27:48 one will use ht, another hn 14:27:53 *sykopomp* imagines (com.informatimago.here.is.a.module:when com.informatimago.something.else.here:x com.informatimago.i.am.done.here.gpl:freedom) when browsing sources. 14:28:00 and third hnchntt 14:28:17 th frst thng w d, lts kll ll th vwls 14:28:40 come to think of it, that's a "fun" emacs april fool idea 14:28:44 someone remember it for next year 14:31:00 Jordan_U [~jordan@216.57.70.194] has joined #lisp 14:31:11 Package local nicknames would be declared. So it's at least better than using :use 14:31:12 stassats`` [~stassats@pppoe.178-66-90-12.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 14:31:27 I should have announced a for-pay Quicklisp registry for April 1 14:31:29 Next year perhaps 14:31:33 -!- minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-40-208.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:31:51 I think minion needs oil 14:32:04 would you pay royalties to the software authors? 14:32:09 quicklisp market 14:32:28 Xach: and lead up to it for a month or so with posts about rising costs of hosting 14:32:36 Neronus: how much oil can you spare? 14:32:47 oGMo: nah, that would guarantee an influx of donations 14:32:55 -!- schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:33:05 Kryztof: heh 14:33:12 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:33:18 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.175.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 14:33:30 -!- specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-40-208.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:33:30 schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 14:33:34 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:33:37 stassats``: I think I've got some sunflower oil left. If he's more picky I might also have some olive oil 14:33:48 let's see 14:34:03 minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-90-12.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 14:34:18 -!- stassats`` is now known as stassats 14:34:20 minion: did you get all oiled up? 14:34:22 yes, i get all oiled up 14:34:41 Pumpkin seed oil is famous around here 14:35:05 -!- stassats [~stassats@pppoe.178-66-90-12.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Changing host] 14:35:05 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:35:47 specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-90-12.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 14:35:50 flip214: Austria? 14:36:27 wbooze_ [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-143-169.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:36:30  14:37:08 -!- davlaps [~davlaps@209.144.63.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:37:16 minion: when would you grow a better grammar? 14:37:17 later 14:37:45 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-189-75.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:37:54 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-155-51.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:38:41 davlaps [~davlaps@209.144.63.76] has joined #lisp 14:39:04 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:42:10 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-ysrthvefsuovbkbk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:44:39 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 14:45:07 -!- tychoish is now known as tycho 14:46:49 -!- tycho is now known as tychoish 14:47:00 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 12.0/20120328051619]] 14:47:30 davlaps_ [~davlaps@209.144.63.76] has joined #lisp 14:48:10 -!- davlaps [~davlaps@209.144.63.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:48:29 -!- leo2007 [~leo@114.247.10.71] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.95.1] 14:48:29 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:48:55 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 14:49:52 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:50:56 Let me tell you something about packages 14:51:20 I was patching XREF, and for some reason I was doing it in clisp. All was well, I wrote a .asd, and loaded it nice. 14:51:47 Then suddenly, I switched to ccl, and tried to load that nice patched XREF package and BOUM! 14:51:50 yakov [~yakov@95-28-253-132.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 14:52:05 Package name collision! There's already in ccl a package named CROSS-REF nicknamed XREF. 14:52:22 So bye bye XREF, good morning COM.INFORMATIMAGO.XREF. 14:52:49 why not pjb-xref? 14:53:24 or ref 14:53:39 And even when I add a nickname to my packages, such as com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp-reader.package nicknamed zpack, I cannot resolve myself to use zpack, 1- because there's an older version named zpack, 2- because somebody else doing a derived work may also nickname it zpack. 14:53:41 ref 14:54:32 stassats: because that's too short and may be used by somebody else. We're in the internet age, sharing our sources, therefore we need to work on a global name space. 14:54:39 why not name packages sha256(package-name+your-full-name+social-security-number)? 14:54:44 It is better if this global name space is hierarchical. 14:54:57 SHODAN [~shozan@c-b3b5e253.011-86-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 14:55:05 stassats: that would work too, but DNS proved that hierarchical names work well. 14:55:24 lisp.org, lisp.com, lisp.net? 14:55:30 which one is which? 14:55:39 except when you have a domain and some crazy ass government on the other side of the globe can take it from you without blinking an eye 14:55:40 All three, different. 14:55:41 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 14:56:03 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 14:56:21 crazy ass governments can do much more, unfortunately. 14:56:27 leo2007 [~leo@114.247.10.71] has joined #lisp 14:56:47 pjb: so, what if somebody else names it COM.INFORMATIMAGO.XREF? 14:57:03 I'll beat them on the head with a dead fish. 14:57:13 trademark infringement 14:57:26 take them to court 14:57:26 And I'm 60% sure I could win a legal suit. 14:57:29 I look forward to the first crack caused by someone loading COM.INFORMATIMGO.XREF 14:57:48 maybe it will delete their hard drive! ;-) 14:57:57 Possibly. 14:58:09 You better read the sources first. 14:58:34 (I wonder whose IRC clients has a font where the difference is noticeable) 14:58:35 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:58:49 it's in lisp, a forgotten language nobody knows 14:59:03 -!- tychoish is now known as tycho 14:59:29 SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:08 who's making lisp name registry, take note not to allow characters outside of ASCII 15:00:15 What's the point of having a long package name with a short nickname? 15:00:24 -!- sezo [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Quit: #yhiselamu | www.yhiselamu.ee (EOF)] 15:00:42 You can still have the same collision as if you just gave it the short name in the first place. 15:00:42 Kryztof: in Ubuntu Mono they are exactly the same 15:05:28 foom: I think it's fair to say that historically, that was either understood, or the expectation would be that renaming or removing nicknames would be cheap 15:05:48 come to think of it, I wonder if there was a restart for that 15:06:17 So the expectation was that nobody would use the nickname in code? 15:06:26 as long as all the explicit package operations are done with the long name, you can use the short name in source code and a nickname rename of already-loaded code would be fine 15:06:37 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.Red-88-11-22.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 15:07:08 yow, that's a bit fragile 15:07:29 I think it was probably fine in the days when you could hose your system by messing with the ethernet driver 15:07:35 or by setting the value of T 15:07:49 this kind of contingent fragility probably didn't even appear on the radar 15:08:27 -!- phrixos [~foo@unaffiliated/phrixos] has quit [Quit: phrixos] 15:09:07 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.124.160.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:10:50 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-2-151-118.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:05 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:13:14 xan__ [~xan@80.174.78.188.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 15:14:25 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.175.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:16:11 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-94-128.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:16:19 kanru`` [~user@61-228-146-116.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:48 -!- splittist [d417faa6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.23.250.166] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:21:43 -!- albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:21:56 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:22:52 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181241043.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:23:32 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has left #lisp 15:27:01 eataix [~eataix@unaffiliated/eataix] has joined #lisp 15:27:15 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:27:31 BeWhy [~chatzilla@c-76-124-138-194.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:28:57 file-local nicknames would also do it for me, actually 15:29:18 Can't find the link now - I know about series; but recall a Series+ that some wrote - anyone know where it is? 15:29:23 like readtables are filelocal (kind of) 15:29:29 I recall a forum where someone posted a link to it for posterity but I can't find that either. 15:29:30 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:29:35 What you need are system-dependent package name remappings. 15:29:53 (As in loading a system) 15:29:58 pamphoon [~ddcgavins@vt-bt-254.dealer.com] has joined #lisp 15:30:51 Otherwise you'll get into trouble with defpackages in the files. 15:31:31 <|3b|> Zhivago: any specific trouble you are thinking of? 15:32:02 Well, say person X calls his package "X" and person Y calls his package "X". 15:32:12 This is the fundamental problem. 15:32:18 madnificent [~madnifice@static.146.73.9.176.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 15:32:42 X writes to Y "hey, i was there first" 15:32:44 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:33:17 Not a sensible approach. 15:33:47 *|3b|* doesn't worry about resolving full-name conflicts for now 15:33:50 Then if you can remap "X" to "X1" and X:... to X1:... or whatever, when loading X's files, then you're right. 15:34:01 Once you solve the fundamental problem, the rest are trivial. 15:34:25 is it worth readin jacious' blog post? its pretty long 15:34:50 I can see that literacy is not your strong suit. 15:35:10 what blog post? 15:35:16 Zhivago: the "X" to "X1" is pretty problematic, I'd have thought 15:35:26 the one where he summed up his CL experience 15:35:47 Kryztof: Well, only for the purposes of naming packages. 15:35:54 defpackage and intern, mainly. 15:35:56 mcstar: url? 15:35:58 i don't know where to find it, which means it's not worth reading 15:36:12 dim: http://blog.jacius.info/2012/04/04/a-rubyists-impressions-of-common-lisp/ 15:36:14 -!- davlaps_ [~davlaps@209.144.63.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:36:26 what, you guys don't reload lisp.reddit.com twenty times every day? 15:36:28 Dangit I just can't find Series+ anywhere now :( 15:36:31 thx 15:36:37 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:36:42 oh, he's the rubyist 15:36:43 for defpackage I can just about see, but make-package, intern... those can get hidden by layers of function call 15:36:54 I agree that there can be a 90% solution 15:38:25 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 15:38:25 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.33] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:39:04 Anyone ever consider re implementing smalltalks magma database in common lisp? 15:39:10 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:40:09 kenanb [~user@94.54.237.227] has joined #lisp 15:40:23 is it that good? 15:40:50 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:41:56 why not implement a far more awesome db? 15:41:59 like postgres 15:42:03 Skola [~Skola@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 15:42:23 so that some smart guys could run lisp-to-c compiler on it? 15:42:45 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:44:39 -!- kenanb [~user@94.54.237.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:44:45 i envy those guys that have something to blog about 15:44:51 kenanb [~user@94.54.237.227] has joined #lisp 15:44:58 *hefner* too 15:45:02 mcstar: you can blog about how mean #lisp is 15:45:12 but it isnt 15:45:17 and i dont wanna lie 15:45:33 http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/2665 15:45:36 ok, blog about how great #lisp is 15:45:46 -!- eataix [~eataix@unaffiliated/eataix] has left #lisp 15:46:06 Whats so great about lisp anyway? I mean perl has coros zomg 15:46:45 http://search.cpan.org/~awwaiid/Continuity-1.5/lib/Continuity.pm I mean doesnt this prety much obsolete lisp? 15:47:11 pamphoon: yeah, it does. Have fun in #perl. 15:47:28 that's it, lisp is finished, i'm packing my things 15:47:54 it isnt obsolete lisp, it is perl 15:48:52 ill work on some haskell-cl language comparison 15:49:04 *hefner* thinks about hierarchical packages and a package-aware defsystem, wonders what he's inventing poorly 15:49:11 (reinventing) 15:49:19 mcstar: are you an expert in both? 15:49:19 writing comparisons sounds a lot easier than actually programming 15:49:46 stassats: fortunately thats not a prerequisite 15:49:57 *hefner* wishes he'd written "Factor for CL programmers" when he could still remember enough Factor to do it. 15:49:57 yeah, i hope it is 15:50:03 *|3b|* doesn't see as much point in package hierarchy, that only helps with short names for your own packages 15:50:22 if you have local packages, then you can already have short names for your own packages 15:50:29 er, local package names 15:50:32 <|3b|> exactly 15:50:38 mcstar: oh, so you're going to write it for the sake of writing? 15:51:09 stassats: i hope i can learn some things on the way 15:51:15 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 15:51:27 and i have a blog for a couple years now, and its still empty 15:51:51 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 15:51:54 -!- BeWhy [~chatzilla@c-76-124-138-194.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 11.0/20120310193829]] 15:52:07 you should write a blog on the awesome library you just wrote in Common Lisp and how to use it 15:52:44 *|3b|* isn't sure which of package-local or system-local package nicknames would be better though 15:53:12 |3b|: I think systems solve another problem entirely 15:54:25 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 15:54:33 |3b|: I was following a train of thought starting from the assumption that system names never collide (or if they did, you couldn't even load them until you fixed it), but packages defined within those systems might collide if you tried to define them in a flat global namespace 15:55:42 long java-esque package names are good for that 15:55:52 hate, hate. 15:55:54 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@121.11.118.133] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:56:00 but you really need some sort of flexible shortening in order to actually use them 15:56:41 the existing package-nickname mechanism isn't flexible enough, and I think that's the problem local package nicknames are trying to solve 15:56:48 MoALTz [~no@87.112.129.161] has joined #lisp 15:57:43 Kron_ [~Kron@206.126.93.212] has joined #lisp 15:58:29 <|3b|> hefner: yeah, i could sort of see scoping full names to systems, but i think full-name collision is sufficiently less of a problem to deal with informally 15:59:21 |3b|: that's reasonable, and certainly the right thing for CL. 15:59:22 <|3b|> and if the community can't deal with package names, they probably can't get system names right either, at which point we are back to adding another level to work around that 15:59:52 Actually, my package names are short. I just prefix them with the system name. 16:00:18 (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum) (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:while) 16:00:42 as soon as there are hierarchical pagkage names or local nicknames you write (utility:while) instead. 16:01:07 *|3b|* is lazy, write (u:while) 16:01:36 That's what I do, too. but because I find long names annoying to read on the one hand, but like to see where symbols come from on the other hand, I would also really like something like local nicknames 16:01:58 -!- schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:02:47 instead of cve.request:out I'd like to just write request:out or req:out, or r:out if I'm as lazy as |3b| 16:03:13 [6502] [58959a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.154.87] has joined #lisp 16:03:19 pnq [~nick@ACA240C7.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 16:03:52 *|3b|* should set up a wiki page somewhere to solicit feedback on a package-local-nicknames spec 16:04:20 So should we reserve all the package names of less than say 4 letters to be used temporarily. 16:04:21 seems like you might as well have hierarchical packages if you have package local nicknames 16:04:29 <|3b|> either that or just give up and explicitly define all the edge cases as undefined :p 16:04:31 hierarchical packages solve a different problem 16:04:38 <[6502]> quick pool. A good reader macro character instead of "?" to expand ,?foo to ,(intern "foo")... 16:04:45 <[6502]> pool=poll 16:04:53 metaphysician [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 16:05:19 (remove-if-not (lambda (n) (<= (length n) 4)) (list-all-packages) :key 'package-name) --> 16:05:53 [6502]: no reader macro at all 16:06:06 so those packages would have to be renamed to something longer, so that I can rename A-SERENDIPITILY-DESIGNED-FACILITY to ASDF easily. 16:06:09 *|3b|* wonders if packages that have local nicknames for themselves works with current implementation 16:06:22 <[6502]> stassats: you mean writing ,(intern "foo") explicitly ? 16:06:37 yes 16:06:38 <|3b|> though i guess that doesn't help anyway 16:07:21 Kryztof: sure, but both require abandoning the notion that a package prefix has some absolute meaning (relative to the current state of the package system, anyway) 16:07:28 isn't `(... ,(intern "foo") ...) equivalent to '(... |foo| ...)? 16:07:44 schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 16:09:05 <[6502]> Kryztof: no because interning is done during macro expansion and the current package may be different from the package where the macro resides 16:09:07 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:09:08 only if the expansion-time *package* is the same as at read-time 16:09:24 ok, quite correct 16:09:41 <[6502]> http://paste.lisp.org/display/128784 16:09:59 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.220] has joined #lisp 16:10:05 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-214-172.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:10:06 <[6502]> stassats: in that example I used ,# ... but looks ugly 16:10:45 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-214-172.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 16:11:21 asvil [~asvil@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 16:11:49 <[6502]> stassats: writing ,(intern "whatever") in every places would be killing tho 16:11:54 hrm weird, getting a type-error expected-type (MOD 1114112) error doing a simple CFFI call (void pointer pointer int) .. even the defcfun expansion is simple 16:12:00 albacker [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:00 -!- albacker [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:12:01 albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #lisp 16:12:29 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:12:58 Ok cmon hurt me, how does lisp outperform perl? 16:13:19 Why more fun to program the lisp? 16:13:24 pamphoon: the question does not make sense. 16:13:47 -!- metaphysician [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:14:05 pamphoon: "performance" is not a one-dimensional thing that can be answered with "yes" or "no" 16:14:15 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-161-110.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:14:17 parenthesis are naturally aerodynamic, accounting for much of Lisp's speed. 16:14:28 lol 16:14:58 lisp is aetheric, it's volatile, it hoops thru the pores of your world-view! 16:14:59 pamphoon: lisp could be seen as more fun because you can mold it in the way you think. therefore you'll have a better ways of expressing yourself. 16:15:07 lol 16:15:28 pamphoon is gavino in case anyone hasn't worked it out yet 16:15:29 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:15:43 Kryztof: sygh, humans 16:15:46 *sigh 16:15:52 moxiemk1 [~moxiemk1@128.237.251.183] has joined #lisp 16:16:59 homo ambiens sighus ? 16:17:08 <|3b|> oGMo: that type sounds like char-code-limit on sbcl, possibly something trying to convert to/from strings? 16:17:39 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 16:19:28 kushal [~kdas@114.143.160.133] has joined #lisp 16:19:28 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.160.133] has quit [Changing host] 16:19:28 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 16:20:11 _3b___: yeah, google shows it typically being encountered when decoding utf-8 or similar, but there's nothing here dealing with strings, unless it's something in alien-funcall, afaict .. digging into cffi, even extern-alien seems to return correctly .. no higher-level strings 16:20:28 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 16:20:44 <[6502]> if I write (lambda (x y z) (+ x y z)) in my package and x is already a symbol in a package I use (e.g. common lisp) the symbol is not interned also in my package and I just use as the name of a local the imported symbol... is this correct? 16:22:00 -!- wbooze_ [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-143-169.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Bye] 16:22:42 -!- sbinetd [~sbinetd@94-193-244-239.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:23:38 http://gsoc2012.esug.org/projects/image-db something like magma for smalltalk in gsoc 16:23:51 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.175.173] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:24:49 bbirec [~bbirec@119.202.82.67] has joined #lisp 16:26:10 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-107-070-026.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:27:00 [6502]: what you said is a bit incoherent, but yes, x will be cl:x 16:27:19 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:27:50 pamphoon: why #lisp should care about smalltalk? 16:28:21 stassats: stop trying to reason with gavino 16:28:49 its the concept of a database in the language itself 16:28:54 that interests me 16:28:59 then u skip postgresql 16:29:03 and just use lisp 16:29:07 Kryztof: it's not gavino 16:29:14 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-143-169.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:29:34 may as well be. 16:29:48 don't be toxic bro. 16:30:00 gavino would have asked "can you use symbols in CL in multiple threads?" 16:30:20 http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/2665 16:30:30 stassats: brilliant! 16:30:53 oh, you meant pamphoon as gavino 16:30:59 then alright 16:32:00 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:33:10 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181241043.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:33:43 ghost_ [~ghost@2001:da8:d800:101:216:d3ff:feae:1b91] has joined #lisp 16:34:43 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:36:15 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:37:33 i just reached toxic 16:37:55 the whole concept of language trolls is completly new to me 16:38:07 *maxm-* had not encountered it before lisp 16:38:10 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0BC2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:38:26 calling gavino a troll would be a complement 16:38:56 so according to that post, you ppl dont write nifty code in lisp, just sit around here and argue for the sake of arguing? 16:39:07 (damn, true for me) 16:39:13 mcstar: correct! 16:39:40 minion: do you agree? 16:39:41 here i am, brain the size of a planet, and all i do is answer your silly questions all day... maybe you have time to agree 16:39:50 even minion is toxic 16:40:28 minion is the bestest bot evar. 16:40:33 minion: are you really toxic? 16:40:34 no 16:40:42 I trust minion. 16:41:15 what post 16:41:25 washington 16:41:58 sykopomp: easy for you, it's not running from your laptop 16:42:45 commy rag 16:42:56 I meant what post says lisp people argue 16:43:06 stassats: let minion loose 16:43:46 i guess you are channel admin too? 16:44:24 pamphoon: i dont want to advertise it that much 16:44:31 mcstar: no 16:44:38 its in the backlog 16:45:02 there should be a haskell and lisp digital olympics 16:45:07 mcstar: pamphoon isn't an intelligent entity, you can disregard him 16:45:08 like the hunger games 16:45:16 kennyd- [~kennyd@78-0-221-33.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 16:46:09 stassats: feeling 1337 today? 16:46:13 the functional games! 16:46:31 madnificent: not all people know who gavino is 16:46:37 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.Red-88-11-22.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:41 who is gavino? 16:46:49 even gavino doesn't 16:46:51 some lisp demigod who fell from favor? 16:46:53 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-72-91.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:47:06 eric naggum? 16:47:39 -!- nha [~prefect@dhcp-15-224.math.tu-berlin.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:48:11 he is dead 16:48:17 i just saw his face on wiki 16:48:27 -!- kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:48:34 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.246] has joined #lisp 16:48:43 stassats: tbh i don't either. and i always doubt if we shouldn't help out. you're probably right though. 16:49:37 madnificent: he comes here for years asking asinine questions over and over 16:50:58 geek [~geek@unaffiliated/geek] has joined #lisp 16:51:24 if only we had so much users that his talks would blend in as noise 16:51:57 naggum must have been fun, according to wiki 16:51:59 the unemployed programmer had a problem. "I know", said the programmer, "I'll just learn perl." the unemployed programmer now had two problems. 16:52:31 nothign funnier than a tuffguy lefting commy euro twink 16:53:00 -!- lindes [~user@p4FF1C681.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:53:03 pamphoon: can you please find another place for your verbal exercises? 16:53:27 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 16:55:34 having a job is not unimportant, but if knowing perl is a requirement for a particular job, consider another one before taking that one. this is true even if you know perl very well. life is too long to be an expert at harmful things, including such evilness as C++ and perl. 16:56:26 H4ns: apparently not 16:56:38 dlowe: truly sad 16:56:47 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #lisp 16:57:03 :I 16:57:26 BeWhy [~chatzilla@c-76-124-138-194.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:46 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA240C7.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:59:50 i think he pastes texts together, thats why those multiple spaces 17:00:06 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.Red-88-11-22.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 17:01:47 http://www.schnada.de/grapt/eriknaggum-perlrant.html it's really just from here 17:01:59 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 17:02:03 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 17:02:05 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!*ddcgavins@*.dealer.com 17:02:11 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 17:02:27 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.115.235] has joined #lisp 17:02:32 -!- pamphoon [~ddcgavins@vt-bt-254.dealer.com] has left #lisp 17:02:57 thanks xach 17:03:34 -!- SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:04:00 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 17:06:57 tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.168.134] has joined #lisp 17:07:34 -!- ghost_ [~ghost@2001:da8:d800:101:216:d3ff:feae:1b91] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:08:21 willson [~willsonfr@74.115.3.62] has joined #lisp 17:10:00 it was a long post but i missed technical details, if he was to really compare ruby with cl he could have done it better 17:10:14 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:10:37 -!- willson [~willsonfr@74.115.3.62] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:10:42 -!- Skola [~Skola@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:11:00 hi 17:11:20 stlifey [~stlifey@121.11.118.133] has joined #lisp 17:12:00 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:12:25 Skola [~Skola@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 17:13:15 m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.44] has joined #lisp 17:13:18 jake___ [~jake@63.249.57.43] has joined #lisp 17:14:52 sacho [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 17:15:16 anyway, i dont want to come back until i did something constructive, so bye 17:15:20 -!- mcstar [~mcstar@adsl-89-134-25-21.monradsl.monornet.hu] has left #lisp 17:15:44 -!- jake___ [~jake@63.249.57.43] has quit [Client Quit] 17:16:13 Steve__ [~Steve@c-71-195-232-180.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:13 -!- yakov [~yakov@95-28-253-132.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:17:57 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:19:42 -!- moxiemk1 [~moxiemk1@128.237.251.183] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:19:52 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp 17:20:29 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:20:30 ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-116-074.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:36  17:21:52 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:23:51 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0BC2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:24:51 klez [~klez@host85-244-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:30:21 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 17:31:45 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:32:13 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-5-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:32:29 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.Red-88-11-22.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:49 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-5-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:42 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@dsl-stat-43-17.mmc.at] has quit [Quit: Fullmoon] 17:34:09 antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1177890637.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 17:34:45 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-5-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:35:14 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-5-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:10 Hm. I like C++ and Perl. Sweeping generalizations are only useful when discussing political groups. 17:36:26 davlaps [~davlaps@pool-108-49-122-166.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:48 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 17:38:47 Erik Naggum wasn't always right. 17:42:58 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:43:38 -!- PECCU is now known as peccu 17:43:59 rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:13 -!- ainm [~ainm@131.Red-79-159-7.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ((call/cc call/cc) (call/cc call/cc))] 17:47:07 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has left #lisp 17:48:04 *stassats* wonders what does "like" mean in the context of programming languages 17:48:56 what qualities should it possess to be likeable 17:49:18 -!- albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:51:37 hi all. Is ed function still used by somebody? 17:52:25 seems unlikely. 17:53:31 <|3b|> might do something useful on implementations that ship with an editor 17:53:59 asvil: yes. 17:54:02 stassats: it should be cuddly? 17:54:05 asvil: in ccl on macosx, ed calls hemlock. 17:54:27 asvil: in clisp, it calls an editor you can configure. 17:54:40 (apropos "ED") 17:55:11 oops that was meant for a repl 17:55:23 otherwise you may replace cl:ed by com.informatimago.common-lisp.ed.ed:ed ;-) 17:55:43 -!- leo2007 [~leo@114.247.10.71] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:55:44 It's an ed(1) clone ;-) 17:57:13 kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 17:57:41 FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 17:57:47 naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has joined #lisp 17:57:50 -!- naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has quit [Client Quit] 17:57:54 on slime ED can be used too 17:58:02 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:30 naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has joined #lisp 17:59:40 stassats: It needs to be configured for sbcl. ok, thanks, it means that ed are alive. 18:00:00 asvil: but i doubt anyone uses it, M-. is so much easier 18:00:00 s/are/is 18:00:45 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 18:00:55 -!- [6502] [58959a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.154.87] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:00:59 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:01:13 Inode [~inode@time.uk.chromedpork.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:25 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:04:14 -!- peccu is now known as PECCU 18:05:58 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 18:07:25 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:08:51 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 18:10:41 Yesterday was talk about speeding up `sort', other than the schwartizian transform. Could someone give some pointers? 18:11:07 paradoja [~paradoja@acceso-cmp174-159.lpa.idec.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:14 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.Red-88-11-22.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 18:11:18 Ralith [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:27 s/was/there was 18:12:59 I think it was something about declaring variables fixnums. Something like that. 18:13:33 jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-252.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:13:48 if you declare the type of the vector, it'll help. 18:14:42 pkhuong: Nice. So if I'm sorting a vector of cons, using car as the key, how would I do that? 18:15:14 that won't be easily exploited. You can still declare the type of the arguments of the comparison functions. 18:15:46 That'll give you type checks and a specialised body, instead of a generic body. 18:16:02 surely (declare (type (simple-array cons) ...)) will do some good. 18:16:08 and you can use SPACE 0 optimization 18:16:32 on sbcl, it'll give an inlined SORT 18:16:42 Great. I'll look into those. Thanks guys. 18:17:03 -!- kenanb [~user@94.54.237.227] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:18:08 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:18:13 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@dsl-stat-43-17.mmc.at] has joined #lisp 18:18:28 SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:28 is sorting a bottleneck for you? 18:18:35 what are you sorting? 18:19:00 from his paste his doing some kind of evolutionary computing introduction thing.. ie evolve population of random strings to converge at target string 18:19:35 stassats: It is the most expensive procedure, but it's not slow in any way. I'm just experimenting. 18:19:42 maxm-: You're right. 18:19:51 sorting will be like 1% of runtime.. cache your fitness, generally ppl use something like (defun fitness (obj) (when (dirty-p obj) (setf (cached-fitness obj) (real-calculate-fitness obj)))) 18:20:02 Here is the procedure: http://paste.kde.org/452426/ 18:20:15 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has quit [Quit: Out of this 3D] 18:20:28 then make your mutation/crossover operators update the dirty flag on your population individual 18:20:34 kde.org? is lisp.org not in vogue anymore? 18:20:46 stassats: I have a mode to paste to it directly. 18:21:06 you could paste to lisp.org directly in the past too! 18:21:18 stassats: Nah, I like mine better. Thanks. 18:21:19 too bad some morons abused it to spam the hell out of it 18:21:22 http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/lisppaste.el 18:21:27 (defun point-mutation (obj) (when (flip mutation-rate) (mutate random gene, compare if its the same or not, set dirty flag))) 18:21:29 -!- billitch [~billitch@nor75-17-82-67-199-96.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:21:36 Fade: it's turned off 18:21:40 oh :( 18:21:50 maxm-: Hum... 18:21:50 Why do you need to sort? 18:21:53 I happened to be looking at the code when I saw didi's comment. 18:22:46 pkhuong: So I can arrange the fittest. Like I said, it's not a big deal. I am just messing around with code and saw, using profiling, that sort was the most expensive call. 18:22:47 pkhuong: once you finished mutating/crossing over, you need to eliminate weak individuals, generally that is done by fitness (or tournament).. Most common way is just sort population by fitness, then cut off X percent of worst individuals (ie they die), and replace them with children of best ones 18:22:54 i could enable it back, but i would need some anti-spam measures 18:23:22 If you only need the top k values, a quickselect will likely be faster. If you want a priority queue, then a heap or some other implementation may easily fare better if most entries don't change their score. 18:23:51 lots of different strategies (you can actually go without sorting, and just use random tournaments, ie select 5 individuals at random, compare their fitness, make worst guy die, and 2 best reproduce) 18:26:17 pkhuong, maxm-: Great. You're right. It could be better of to just strip out sort here. Thank you. 18:27:20 sort is fine, you just mis-interpreting the results. it looks like all your time spent in sort, but in reality its spent in your objective function. Implement the (only-calculate-fitness-if-genome-changed), and your sort will be fast 18:28:58 maxm-: The population is actually not too big, normally 2048 individuals. So I'm guessing maybe there are some constant factors to blame. 18:31:59 didi: when looking at profile, notice the "%self" vs total.. The 95 of time may be spent in sort, but I bet you the %Self column is like a few percent.. It means the actual time is spent in whatever sort calls 18:32:09 ie the :key or :test function 18:32:21 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 18:32:32 maxm-: Hum... I'll look. Thanks. 18:32:37 if you indeed seeing 90% of self time in sort, then I'm wrong, but I would be surprised 18:33:52 maxm-: Self% 12.5 18:34:05 -!- jollyG [~JollyG@KennPAT.uncc.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:34:12 -!- klez [~klez@host85-244-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has left #lisp 18:34:16 ok, then you need to optimize where the other 88% of time is spent, not the sort 18:34:25 maxm-: I see... 18:34:45 That's weird: < 25.00 28.12 43.75 18:34:55 lakatos [~lakatos@c3.uaic.ro] has joined #lisp 18:34:58 Good day 18:35:05 Self% Cumul% Total% 18:35:12 lakatos: Good day. 18:35:42 What's the topic of discussion? 18:35:50 total is cumulative from top, ie everything up to this function from top is 45% of total run time.. 18:35:54 lakatos: Common Lisp 18:36:13 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@dsl-stat-43-17.mmc.at] has quit [Quit: Fullmoon] 18:36:23 didi: what profiler are you using? 18:36:40 stassats: The one recommended yesterday: slime-sprof 18:36:55 didi: didi you know that you can press RET on each line? 18:37:14 stassats: Now I know. :^) 18:37:34 I assume < is function name 18:37:35 you can also press "s" to get rid of SWANK stuff 18:37:43 stassats: Even better. 18:38:05 and press "g" to go where the expanded thing is referring 18:38:16 and "v" to jump to the source 18:38:19 you may be better off passing a custom function to sort as comparator 18:38:44 -!- __main__ [~main@c-67-180-22-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:38:45 didi: so, now you can see what SORT calls and stuff 18:38:49 maxm-: < indeed is a function 18:38:56 so if you always know your fitness is fixnum, then probably passing (lambda (x y) (declare (fixnum x y) (< x y))) is sort comparator will help 18:39:12 bad parenthesis alert 18:39:38 __main__ [~main@c-67-180-22-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:52 didi: and you can also press "h" to get help 18:39:55 Where? 18:40:07 lakatos: behind you 18:40:26 Awesome channel. 18:40:45 Now go blog about it 18:40:49 lakatos: apparently slime has interactive profiler, which stassats is an expert on, and did is using it 18:40:54 No, seriosuly, all parenthesis seem to be closed 18:40:58 *maxm-* always just used sb-sprof 18:41:01 *didi* is a terrible blogger... :^( 18:41:28 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:41:33 never heard of this profiler, will check it out 18:42:52 didi: but anyway, as of right now you doing a trivial problem, to learn genetic/evolutionary programming. The "toy" examples will not give you the right idea about where time is spent when you try to evolve a real problem 18:43:58 didi: just concentrate on correctness and write the correct framework that has fitness caching, very adjustable/flexible mutation/crossover operators etc... In real life examples 90% of time will be spent in your objective function, and only trivial amount of time on comparing actual fitness 18:45:41 maxm-: http://common-lisp.net/~sboukarev/sprof.png 18:45:55 *stassats* found an old screen-shot 18:47:39 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:47:54 stassats: "07:28:03 but if everyone invents their own package-local-nicknames, it will be hard to read" "07:28:10 one will use ht, another hn" 18:47:55 maxm-: Roger. Thank you. 18:47:59 ^-- True, so I'd suggest a new :suggested-nicknames DEFPACKAGE option that would be used by the author of a library to indicate a nickname to use by default, to avoid gratuitous divergences. The user could still use any nickname they want. 18:48:30 I suggest documentation and peer pressure. 18:48:41 *|3b|* votes for editor support 18:49:10 *hefner* favors a brutal totalitarian regime 18:49:27 hefner: would it be toxic? 18:50:35 pkhuong: :suggested-nicknames *is* documentation. And then it's easier to have peer pressure: "It's good practice to use a (the) suggested nickname(s) rather than a random other one." 18:50:41 documentation is in the defpackage. You need no more documentation. 18:51:30 minion: Chant! 18:51:30 MORE DOCUMENTATION 18:51:34 Hexstream: so, if one package suggests nicknames ht and hn, and another hn and ht 18:51:51 (although an expansion in the minibuffer while hovering over a symbol would be cool, too) 18:51:51 how confusing would it be? 18:52:14 sykopomp: expansion of what? 18:52:24 stassats: Edge cases are an exercise for the user. It's not important. The :suggested-nicknames thing is just to avoid unnecessary differences in the easy cases, at pretty much no cost. 18:52:33 Lone_Wanderer [~Dan@209-6-50-94.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 18:53:04 If a library user wants to use confusing nicknames, then no amount of documentation is likely to help. Conversely those who already are choosing non-confusing nicknames are unlikely to be swayed by documentation. 18:53:14 stassats: ht:acc|eptor -> minibuffer: 'hunchentoot:acceptor' 18:53:42 if you really really want editor support. :) 18:54:21 if you take editor support far enough, you don't need nicknames at all. 18:54:40 jasom: When using libraries, I'd personally favor an acceptable suggested nickname over an acceptable not-suggested nickname. There's often many acceptable possible nicknames, and loosely "standardizing" on one is desirable. 18:54:45 yeah, just like Java. 18:54:55 If you take editor support far enough, you don't need programmers? ;P 18:55:16 we could do with fewer of those. 18:55:19 hefner: that would make it a lot better actually. i wonder if it'd really be that complex in emacs 18:55:44 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-026.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 18:55:49 everything looks simple before you try to code it 18:56:05 *maxm-* org log is full of "estimate 1h, actual +7" 18:56:17 sykopomp: we get rid of new programmers by being mean 18:56:27 maxm-: Only a 7x factor?? You don't know your luck! 18:56:28 s/mean/toxic/ 18:56:37 clearly, we need to be more toxic 18:56:43 "toxic" is overused today 18:56:52 guy should have used "elitist" 18:56:52 minion: chant 18:56:52 MORE TOXIC 18:56:54 sykopomp: Yes, let's slap the AGPL on everything! 18:56:57 maxm-: then you need to estimate better 18:56:59 stassats: you heard minion. 18:57:12 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:57:13 that's off-toxic! 18:57:30 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-384039.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 18:58:50 sykopomp: funny, I already preloaded minion with the phrase "more toxic" by /msg, the last time someone made him chant. 19:00:03 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:01:25 hefner: hax 19:03:33 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c0143.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:03:54 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-384039.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:07:10 *hefner* turns on pretty-lambda mode, gets something that looks a lot more like thai than greek 19:07:36 I guess whoever made fun of my courier font gets the last laugh. 19:07:44 what, all of us? 19:07:49 that's a lot of last laughter 19:07:52 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-384039.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 19:08:06 (even I have given up on using courier on most of my computers) 19:08:42 I liked Courier on MacOS, but I've not used MacOS for more than 20 years 19:08:50 With TCO support, we can all have the last laugh in constant space, I think. 19:09:30 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:09:34 by given up, you mean "Let the wave of progress sweep you into the sea". 19:09:40 That makes for cheap laughs, I guess. 19:10:26 *|3b|* will just stay with fixed and similar X fonts until at least 200dpi :p 19:10:57 |3b|: You don't have 200 dpi yet? 19:11:15 <|3b|> nope, only ~140 on this laptop :( 19:11:43 <|3b|> and desktop LCD seem to have been stuck at 100dpi forever 19:11:52 <|3b|> (at least the ones i can afford) 19:12:19 hack on your phone! 19:12:29 *|3b|* doesn't have a nice phone either :p 19:13:25 <|3b|> total area does matter too... i want enough 200+dpi to have a few 80col emacs open at once 19:13:58 new ipad? 19:14:45 <|3b|> yeah, those sound nice... probably pretty slow display if i tried to run my computer through it though :p 19:14:59 nha [~prefect@dhcp-15-224.math.tu-berlin.de] has joined #lisp 19:15:03 you buy an ipad for each editor buffer, and swap them in and out of the keyboard dock depending which one you want to edit. 19:15:12 <|3b|> heh 19:15:14 -!- __main__ [~main@c-67-180-22-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:15:26 _main_ [~main@adsl-99-173-15-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:38 -!- naiv [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-217-170.w109-208.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:15:50 hefner: yeah. I would *like* to use computer modern, but that involves faffing around with configuration, for which I no longer have time 19:15:54 I tend to like bitstream vera sans mono and dejavu sans mono, they have decent unicode support too, and look clean 19:16:06 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 19:16:21 -!- _main_ [~main@adsl-99-173-15-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:16:37 __main__ [~main@c-67-180-22-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:14 I didn't have to mess much with style issues in emacs configs though, as I just run it under a terminal which already has the font/colors I want 19:17:16 <|3b|> nice to finally see a display under $1k with the resolution of the CRT i had 10 years ago (or is that 15?) at least, even if it is only available for ipad 19:17:36 <|3b|> (resolution as in total pixels, not pixel density) 19:20:05 you had a big CRT, I take it 19:21:11 <|3b|> yeah 19:21:59 I am far from fond of modern advances in graphical displays, but I am not sorry to have lost my last CRT a few years ago. (Other than my television, for discussion of which I encourage all to read http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/8705.html -- but since my television is as of today unable to pick up television signals I think that doesn't count) 19:23:16 moah [~gnu@dslb-188-109-157-128.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:38 <|3b|> yeah, 2x 21" CRT generates a lot more heat than 2x LCDs 19:26:02 All the money you spared in the winter heating 19:26:06 consumes more energy too 19:26:10 and is much harder to carry :\ 19:26:45 http://i30.tinypic.com/2h3v2m8.jpg 19:28:19 <|3b|> pjb: central tx isn't much of a 'winter heating' area :p 19:31:51 pjb is in France, so electric heating from devices isn't completely stupid (because a large amount of the French energy grid comes from nuclear). In the rest of the world, heating your house in the winter inefficiently from CRTs compared with heating it (more) efficiently from gas is strongly suboptimal. 19:31:58 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 19:32:07 Unless you like having CRTs irradiating your gonads, of course 19:32:40 Kryztof: actually I'm in Spain, and I use computers to heat in the winter. That's enough heating. 19:32:43 <|3b|> that assumes you want heating in the first place though 19:32:48 Even with LCD instead of CRT :-) 19:33:01 *hefner* wants mutant super powers 19:33:23 now you can have google goggles 19:33:26 phadthai: very good that url! :-) 19:33:36 it's less fun with mutant supercells 19:33:47 pjb: oh, right? I didn't know. 19:34:12 -!- ft [efftee@shell.chaostreff-dortmund.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:35:04 jlongster [~user@pool-96-253-85-90.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:49 ft [efftee@shell.chaostreff-dortmund.de] has joined #lisp 19:36:18 pjb: I think when I first saw it there was a title on top "The evolution of Man and TV" :) 19:36:27 most lispers seems to be on the skinny side 19:36:34 must be the cocaine 19:37:09 the brain consumes a lot of energy :) 19:39:20 Kryztof: hmm interesting article 19:40:36 maxm-: the effects of toxicity 19:41:50 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 19:45:17 *maxm-* is reasonably happy with 2560x1400.. Great with stump, I can actually use xterm, emacs and browser side by side 19:45:35 with top and bottom rows split up for small windows, dialog area, etc .. (in stump) 19:45:59 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:46:42 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 19:49:06 *stassats* is happy with 3840x1080 19:50:00 what kind of aspect ratio is that? 19:50:07 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.115.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:50:15 that's two monitors 19:51:01 *phadthai* ... survives with 1920x1080 19:51:27 allright for 3 columns of 80-columns code though 19:52:17 <|3b|> and just barely not enough for 4 columns :/ 19:52:19 -!- MoALTz [~no@87.112.129.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:52:34 I get 3x80 on 1680 but I have to sit close:) 19:53:02 i don't know what small fonts are you using, but i can barely get two columns of 80 19:53:49 *|3b|* could technically get 4 x 80 col into 1920, but would be hard to read with nothing at all to separate them 19:54:01 I never actually used it this way, but when I had a 30" cinema display, I could get 5x80. 19:54:01 *Ralith* is productive on a 1024x600 netbook 19:54:11 proof: http://technomadic.org/greg/Pictures/Emacs.jpg 19:54:23 and why would you look at so many columns of code though 19:54:26 9 point terminus, selected so that I could get 2x80 on the netbook 19:54:27 urxvt -fn "xft:Bitstream Vera Sans Mono:pixelsize=13" -geometry 239x60-0+0 19:55:02 sellout: heh 19:55:07 *|3b|* seems to be using -misc-fixed-medium-r-normal--10-100-75-75-c-60-iso8859-1 AKA 6x10 i think 19:55:20 phadthai: you can stick that in .Xdefaults 19:55:26 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: Zzzz] 19:55:35 urxvt.font: alt1,alt2,alt3,... 19:55:42 Ralith: I use Xdefaults for global settings, but have various menu options to open terminals 19:55:49 o.O 19:55:54 stassats: a typical 3 column setup for me is 2 columns of one program in emacs follow-mode and a repl 19:56:15 the only difference between those options being geometry and font size 19:57:13 stassats: but I also modified emacs follow-delete-split to greedily open as many 80 column windows as will fit 19:57:19 *stassats* curses the person who broke emacs window splitting logic 19:57:21 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.94.201] has joined #lisp 19:58:10 its pretty customizable. you can completly override it with display-buffer-function, and the buffer-predicate property of the frame 19:58:25 *maxm-* for example made repl remember its window size 19:58:29 it's brain damage is what it is 19:58:34 actually its height 19:58:42 and always open on the bottom window 19:59:02 damaged 19:59:25 brained damage 19:59:48 heh 20:00:16 and poorhouse successfully avoided for another day 20:00:37 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.Red-88-11-22.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:44 urandom__ [~user@p548A2A42.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:03 MoALTz [~no@87.112.129.161] has joined #lisp 20:04:09 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:06:49 -!- MoALTz [~no@87.112.129.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:09:08 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:09:17 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-252.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:10:16 vantage|home [~vantage@82.41-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 20:14:26 maxm-: by whom? 20:14:51 Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-032.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 20:19:05 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.168.134] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:20:54 -!- xan__ [~xan@80.174.78.188.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:21:38 tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.168.134] has joined #lisp 20:23:22 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:26:24 stassats: Is there any way to affect the output of slime-eval-print wrt slime-eval-last-expression and *print-right-margin*? 20:28:23 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@82.41-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg] 20:28:31 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0BC2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:30:44 zmv [~zmv@186.204.144.184] has joined #lisp 20:30:51 -!- sn0rri [~sn0rri@62.169.219.149] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 20:36:09 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-189-75.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:36:41 justicefries [~justicefr@c-24-9-170-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:43 what's out there as far as modern LISPs with strong communities/open source libraries?? Clojure, but it's JVM. 20:38:53 justicefries: SBCL & CCL are the biggest around here  with most libraries being portable between them. 20:39:24 I thought clisp was bigger than ccl 20:39:31 zmv: Really? 20:39:39 justicefries: /topic. This channel is for Common Lisp. 20:39:41 I was also checking out Chicken. 20:39:46 sellout: really 20:40:09 zmv: Not in this channel, but maybe elsewhere. 20:40:38 <|3b|> clisp probably does well with people searching for "common lisp 20:40:44 <|3b|> in a distro package manager 20:40:48 Of course, working for Clozure, I may have some bias  20:41:19 sykopomp: I don't think you fully read my question, but thanks. :) sellout: both CCL and SBCL look pretty good. 20:41:22 yeah, i was of the opinion that SBCL and CCL were the popular ones also, heh 20:41:53 justicefries: if you're in this channel, you should expect answers about Common Lisp, since Clojure isn't Lisp. 20:41:54 still, CL is CL, right? :D 20:41:56 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 20:42:05 justicefries: You might want to go visit the scheme world. 20:42:06 sellout: CCL has been getting a lot of traction the past couple of years. I blame it on the "It'll compile so fast, you'll think it broke" effect. 20:44:04 -!- BeWhy [~chatzilla@c-76-124-138-194.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 11.0/20120310193829]] 20:44:52 minion tell justicefries about SBCL 20:44:55 naiv [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-264-206.w92-157.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:45:41 minion: tell justicefries about SBCL 20:45:41 justicefries: please see SBCL: Steel Bank Common Lisp is an open source / free software Common Lisp implementation. http://www.cliki.net/SBCL 20:46:48 We've become too accustomed to minion's absence ]-: 20:47:22 -!- Skola [~Skola@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:48:20 When did minion return? 20:48:48 -!- Steve__ [~Steve@c-71-195-232-180.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:50:05 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c0143.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:00 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:52:51 sellout: stassats got him back this past weekend. 20:53:51 -!- SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:56:47 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-032.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:58:08 Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-018.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 20:59:58 SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:03 -!- two- [~textual@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:01:18 DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-14-2.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:51 -!- SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:04:58 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0BC2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:06:30 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-86-54-102.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:07:19 -!- ft [efftee@shell.chaostreff-dortmund.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:11:31 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129194179.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: 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#lisp 21:43:58 nelson- [~user@a89-152-184-27.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 21:44:33 -!- alvis [~user@tx-184-6-178-38.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:44:58 -!- nelson- [~user@a89-152-184-27.cpe.netcabo.pt] has left #lisp 21:45:01 ft [efftee@shell.chaostreff-dortmund.de] has joined #lisp 21:45:48 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 21:46:11 lebro [~monx@ool-18bc4a28.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:38 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:51:24 -!- nha [~prefect@dhcp-15-224.math.tu-berlin.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:01:29 -!- rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: rpg] 22:01:58 daniel__ [~daniel@p50829C17.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:52 does anyone have any insight into the pricing of allegrograph developer? 22:04:21 MoALTz [~no@87.112.232.227] has joined #lisp 22:04:26 yan_: contact sales@franz.com 22:04:35 yan_: this is not the right place to ask. 22:04:40 -!- daniel__3 [~daniel@p50829D0C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:04:41 fair enough, will do 22:04:51 they're running a spare kidney discount through the end of May. 22:07:51 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.Red-88-11-22.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 22:09:46 bozhidar [~user@a89-152-184-27.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 22:10:58 -!- bozhidar [~user@a89-152-184-27.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:11:59 albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #lisp 22:12:10 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-5-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 22:17:35 ainm [~ainm@109.Red-88-18-194.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:09 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181241043.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 22:20:24 alvis [~user@tx-184-6-178-38.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:56 -!- DDR 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