00:04:30 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 00:05:00 aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 00:15:39 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:15:47 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.123.249.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:17:30 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 00:17:34 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 00:17:36 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 00:18:28 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 00:19:05 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 00:19:55 -!- deMimsyPorp [~SirMimsy@static-50-43-23-71.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:20:42 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 00:20:42 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:22:37 fantasticsid [~user@2001:da8:8001:708:839:b1d5:9fd5:c7c0] has joined #lisp 00:25:56 -!- CrazyEddy [~hammerer@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:26:48 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.16] has joined #lisp 00:27:55 Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:48 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:29:08 Beticious [~n@88.148.63.142] has joined #lisp 00:30:03 -!- Beticious [~n@88.148.63.142] has quit [Killed (idoru (Spam is off topic on freenode.))] 00:30:52 deMimsyPorp [~SirMimsy@static-50-43-23-71.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 00:32:36 KDr2 [~kdr2@125.34.40.54] has joined #lisp 00:44:45 killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has joined #lisp 00:45:48 -!- ainm [~ainm@206.Red-79-158-106.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ainm] 00:48:42 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:02:57 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:03:23 Hrmm  http://paste.lisp.org/display/128584 01:05:12 cafesofie [~user@ool-18e4c9a0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:09:36 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:09:51 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 01:12:42 -!- EyesIsMine [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:24:31 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.16] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:27:12 EyesIsMine [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 01:28:24 sellout, the url you are requesting is the main page of the project 01:29:37 svn co svn://common-lisp.net/project/cl-facebook/svn cl-facebook works 01:32:17 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:40 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 01:32:58 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:37:47 -!- amagi [~amagi@bl14-169-65.dsl.telepac.pt] has left #lisp 01:42:14 pnathan [~Adium@64.126.142.148] has joined #lisp 01:46:33 -!- Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-16-175.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 01:47:36 Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-16-175.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:19 springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has joined #lisp 01:51:41 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:57:00 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:03:07 -!- sawgij [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:04:19 sawgij [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #lisp 02:05:29 -!- antonv [5d7d31e8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.232] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:09:36 Sgeo_ [~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:03 What is a good way to describe the prog2 error? 02:10:10 typo? thinko? 02:12:13 GhostHand_ [~GhostHand@58.210.218.170] has joined #lisp 02:13:26 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-149-106.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:14:59 hello 02:15:49 Hi 02:18:06 Typo. 02:18:42 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-24-163-252.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:58 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-125-157.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:53 Typo. 02:28:06 Sgeo_: it's a copy-and-paste error. 02:33:35 -!- CampinSam [~CampinSam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:37:29 scombinator [~user@203.171.40.170] has joined #lisp 02:39:19 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:40:54 -!- GhostHand_ [~GhostHand@58.210.218.170] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:41:06 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 02:41:59 How many actually conforming implementations are there? 0? 02:44:22 I think most popular implementations are conformant? 02:45:48 Do they count as conformant if prog2 doesn't follow the spec? 02:46:49 -!- springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:47:00 Mu, as I am not a conformance lawyer. 02:48:22 Sgeo_: check http://cliki.net/ 02:48:59 One might ponder Armed Bear, which fails 20 out of 21702 tests in the ANSI test suite. Is that conformant? Or non-conformant? Mu. 02:49:05 Sgeo_: Implementations are free to implement a subset of the language. Implementations are free to implement a superset of the language. 02:49:29 Therefore they all implement a superset of a subset that is, CL-{prog2}{prog2}. 02:49:50 Hah 02:50:24 I'm not the one saying this, but "I'm weirded out that they can't just fix it, though. Isn't that what text editors are for?" 02:50:56 Sgeo_: notice that CLHS is not a formal specification. It even don't specify any algorithm (but the lisp reader algorithm). 02:51:15 Wait, so what's the official spec, and does it have the same issue? 02:51:23 Sgeo_: you can download the hyperspec, and patch it. You can even publish a patch. But you are forbidden to publish a patched copy. 02:51:52 CLHS is identical to the official spec. 02:52:06 Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483A075.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:07 I would assume the officiel spec has the same issue. 02:52:21 Can anyone suggest a SLIME implementation or something similar for vim? 02:53:42 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483A0F9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:54:24 ZombieChicken: there was a slimv. 02:54:51 any idea on how good it is? 02:54:52 I don't know if it's uptodate or maintained. 02:55:02 Try it and tell us! 02:55:12 (http://www.cliki.net/vim) 02:56:31 pjb: I'd be happy to if I knew what I was doing with it. I'm just getting started so I don't have anything to compare it to 02:56:57 ZombieChicken: compare it with slime in emacs. 02:57:03 ZombieChicken: read slime manual. 02:57:17 the problem there is I'd have to muck about with emacs 02:58:08 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-kjcagdivhzmaillk] has joined #lisp 02:59:16 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 02:59:17 springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has joined #lisp 02:59:44 There's a mcclide projects which attempts to provide a basic editor with slime-esque functionality. 02:59:46 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.94.1] 03:00:23 http://mclide.in-progress.com/ 03:00:24 achiu [~achiu@ip68-96-95-213.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:06 So that might help you if you use osx. :) 03:01:40 strickly Linux here 03:04:16 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.82.79] has joined #lisp 03:04:16 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.82.79] has quit [Changing host] 03:04:16 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 03:04:39 ZombieChicken: Give SLIME + Emacs a try. You might like it. 03:05:05 -!- gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:05:08 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-24-218-51.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:05:30 gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has joined #lisp 03:05:32 I've given emacs a shot a few times (including trying to work with it recently) and havn't found it terribly interesting. I hate having to use Mod keys 03:06:34 I see. 03:07:00 I might try viper mode sometime in the near future, but the default setup doesn't suit me 03:07:27 ZombieChicken: The default setup doesn't suit anyone. 03:07:34 I agree that the commands format is annoying and unhealthy, and am mostly a vim user myself, but I used emacs+slime for lisp and it's pretty nice 03:08:41 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-18-50.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:53 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 03:08:53 didi: Then why is it the default? 03:09:14 ZombieChicken: Oh my... Don't go there. 03:09:48 I can imagine a few possible reasons, but I won't voice them 03:10:25 rebinding some keys can help a bit, i.e. the useless capslock to ctrl with xmodmap :) 03:10:34 -!- springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:10:39 ZombieChicken: you can edit your key map (~/.Xmodmap) so that you have to type keys you like). 03:10:48 I'd like to have thoughts on https://github.com/tlikonen/cl-eval-bot/issues/1 . (MIT vs AGPL) Does my reasoning make sense at all?... I thought it was a common line of reasoning but maybe not?... 03:11:04 and emacs is also quite customizable 03:11:08 pjb: I've done that with ESC 03:11:30 emacs looks more like a Lisp shell than anything 03:11:58 Hexstream: You miss the point of GPL. 03:11:58 considering what all it can do 03:12:48 didi: I'm not sure. What I'm not missing is the collateral damage of the GPL. And 10x for AGPL... But please educate me. 03:12:49 Hexstream: I suggest you go read some of FSF articles about it. 03:12:58 Hexstream: The current project I'm working on will be published in AGPL3, and then I'll upgrade my com.informatimago.* libraries to AGPL3. 03:13:10 Hexstream: If you call it "collateral damage" you are already missing the point. 03:13:25 Hexstream: I want the users of my code to be able to get the sources of the services using my code. 03:13:39 pjb: And MIT prevents that how? 03:13:52 Hexstream: MIT doesn't force the developers to release the sources. 03:14:02 Seems like a fine policy. 03:14:15 You like forcing people? Twisting their arm?... 03:14:45 If my current project wasn't AGPL, somebody could take it, put up a server running a modified version of it (possibly doing evil things with users' data and programs) without anybody knowing better. 03:15:02 Hexstream: I don't twist any arm; you are not forced to use my code. 03:15:13 pjb: Hah! And you think that someone evil like that will uphold a license. 03:15:39 pjb, can't they run a modified version legally anyway with GPL, as long as they don't distribute the program without distributing source? 03:15:51 Sgeo_: yes. That's why there's AGPL. 03:15:54 I consider that there is significant value added from using a GPL/AGPL license. There have been far too much excellent closed-source software whose source is lost. 03:15:58 Hexstream: personally I agree with you, but of course it's the author's choice to chose a license 03:17:35 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:19:49 (and your responsibility to avoid software which license you can't oblige to) 03:21:55 CrazyEddy [~receptacu@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 03:23:55 Oh my. You don't even know what you are talking about and you *actually* say it: "... has to be relicensed under AGPL. Or something ridiculous like that." 03:24:10 phadthai: Right, so for me [A]GPL'd is about as good as "doesn't exist" since I can't use it. But anyway, it's the author's right to cripple the potential usefulness and relevance of their project because of silly licensing issues arising out of perhaps noble but impractical ideals... 03:26:17 -!- antgreen [~user@70.50.65.29] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:26:50 didi: Your 4 messages to me have not been very informative. Perhaps I should go ahead and read the 10-page license, so that I can acquire a false sense of actually understanding exactly what the license means, technically. I'll go do that right now. 03:27:06 Why don't you guys take this discussion over to #lispcafe? 03:27:16 Hexstream: what are you afraid of? Don't you want to give your sources anyways? 03:27:48 pjb: Sure, but I don't want to twist everyone's arm into giving theirs if they don't want to. 03:28:10 Again, nobody's twisting any arm. 03:28:15 Hexstream: You seem very emotional about the topic. That's cool. Please, go read some of the FSF's articles about it. It might surprise you. Or at least you get to know your enemy. 03:29:11 pjb: "If you don't like the GPL, don't use my code." is not something I want to find myself saying to potential users. 03:29:32 potential programmers. 03:29:39 users benefit from AGPL or GPL. 03:29:58 pjb: The users I'm targetting are programmers, so... 03:30:18 -!- ynniv [~ynniv@c-76-23-252-81.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ynniv] 03:33:12 austinh: I think it's an issue worth discussing, and reasonably on-topic (the GPL is especially problematic for Lisp code due to its dynamicity, after all). I don't think your suggestion is warranted. 03:33:13 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 03:33:30 The GPL is designed around this idea (fsf quote): " the GNU GPL does not restrict what people do in software; it just stops them from restricting others."; the idea is that it restricts the ability to publish closed source software. 03:33:42 Discussing software licenses in general is not on-topic. 03:34:04 And you talk about it every freaking week. 03:34:29 austinh: I... do? Really?... When's that? 03:35:07 The GPL has no problems regarding lisp code, unless you're distributing images -- in which case it's not dynamicity that you're talking about. 03:35:27 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-adgfpocgfuikrhyv] has joined #lisp 03:37:28 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:38:30 Hexstream: Are you not the person who regularly debates pjb about software licenses? Sorry if I got you mixed up. 03:39:51 It's more likely to be irregularly. 03:40:01 austinh: I might take a pot shot about it once in a while, but that's a drop in the bucket. It's usually not a discussion. 03:40:08 i thought the main problem with the GPL and lisp was the same one as the GPL and bison .. generated code 03:40:30 Zhivago: don't you mean the LGPL? Unless GPL software has a special added exception clause, if it also includes macros, technically GPL macros would taint any non-GPL code making use of it 03:40:36 springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has joined #lisp 03:40:37 -!- killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:40:38 or LGPL, of course 03:40:47 Hexstream: Ok, well, I apologize for the negativity. I don't think #lisp is the place for me anymore. 03:40:50 -!- austinh [~austin@c-24-21-49-222.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has left #lisp 03:41:03 phadthai: Nothing special about dynacimity or lisp there. 03:41:17 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:41:32 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:43:46 The fact that we're even debating what the ramifications of applying the [L|A]GPL to a piece of code are what make me avoid it. I'm not interested in being part of someone's political crusade. If I want code to be open source, I'll MIT|BSD it, maybe public domain. Alternatively, I may want to use some of my own open-source code in closed source projects for good reason. 03:44:07 phadthai: It's those kinds of potential questions that make me prefer dead-simple licenses like MIT or Public Domain. So the user (or, well, programmer)just goes: "Can I use this in whatever way?..." is immediately: "Yes, yes I can!" 03:44:33 ThomasH: Oops, I should have read your message first. ;) 03:45:08 So much misinformation... If it's your code, doesn't matter it's GPL, you can use it in a closed source project. 03:45:10 ThomasH: not a very bright person are you. 03:45:43 deMimsyPorp: That's not the kind of comment that leads to intelligent and informative discourse. 03:45:48 ThomasH: not really, i have similar questions about something as simple as the BSD .. if i include an excerpt of code, fork, rewrite significant portions, at what point does the copyright not need to be included, etc .. personally "can i use this lisp module with any other" is pretty much all i end up caring about 03:46:03 didi: I didn't interpret his sentence to mean that 03:47:32 And "Public Domain" is not a license. 03:47:34 I'm done. 03:47:39 e.g., in rewriting clx i've been wary of even writing similar approaches to routines as the original, though most of the time it was unnecessary 03:47:43 infiniteone [~infiniteo@c-76-126-91-167.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:47:50 oGMo: If you have questions about applicability of a copyright, it's easy, contact the author of the original code, show your derivation, and ask if they think it is sufficiently different to allow a new copyright. 03:48:05 ThomasH: not sufficient, nor are they likely an expert 03:48:13 or available, as in this case 03:48:34 didi: but I agree about that last one :) 03:49:09 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:49:19 oGMo: Availability, sure. If you are implementing something that exits, I think it's best not to look at the existing code if you are worried about that. 03:49:25 *exists* 03:49:59 also not sufficient, but this isn't really a lispy topic 03:50:52 Seemed to be sufficient for Stallman, that was his advice for developing GNU utilities. 03:51:08 ThomasH: Contacting authors is i/o. I like to avoid it. 03:52:26 didi: https://github.com/Hexstream/place-utils/blob/master/UNLICENSE looks like a license to me... 03:52:46 Hexstream: Nope. 03:53:50 didi: Public domain also isn't recognized everywhere, so what to do? 03:53:54 didi: You seem to take pleasure in formulating uninformative messages. How is it not a license. 03:54:05 ThomasH: You're right. 03:54:23 Hexstream: Public Domain is not a license, duse. 03:54:26 s/duse/dude 03:54:35 didi happens to be correct, albeit probably by accident. 03:55:13 The Public Domain is where things when they are no-longer licensable, generally speaking. 03:55:25 "Anyone is free to copy, modify, publish, use, compile, sell, or distribute this software, either in source code form or as a compiled binary, for any purpose, commercial or non-commercial, and by any means." <-- How, pray tell, is this not a license. 03:55:44 In some countries, an author may irrevokably surrender such rights, causing something that would otherwise not be in the Public Domain to then be in the Public Domain. 03:55:57 Hexstream: That's not the Public Domain. 03:56:07 Hexstream: that part does look like a license to me, but public-domain is in a way conflictual with it 03:57:37 Doesn't the author retain the right to change the copyright, anyway? So, there are no guarantees. 03:58:07 Much ado about nothing. 03:58:27 One would suggest that perhaps if one is significantly concerned about licensing and copyright, an IP lawyer should be retained. 03:58:36 and unfortunately as others noted pd is not universal, apparently not even acceptable everywhere legally 03:58:41 phadthai: Not really. Basically the unlicense has two parts: "Your country recognizes my right to surrender this to the public domain? Then I do so. Your country won't allow this? Fine then, as author I say 'are free to copy, modify, publish, etc etc.'" 03:58:57 -!- benny [~benny@i577A16A0.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:00:15 So, I was trying to do some microbenchmarks comparing MAPCAN and LOOP...COLLECT earlier today and getting bitten by the GC, as far as I could tell. Is there any other witchcraft that SBCL would be performing on lists that would effect my results? 04:00:52 Hexstream: hmm interesting pov, and I'm not a lawyer, so I can't contest that :) 04:00:57 Can someone point me to documentation, or explain to me, how a Lisp implementation relates to Lisp code? I've seen mention of compiled machine code and then there seems to be a requirement of having something linke SBCL installed. 04:01:25 s/linke/like 04:01:41 A lisp implementation executes lisp code. 04:02:15 so it is an interpreted language? 04:02:24 Frequently, a core number of underlying lisp functions are implemented in C, with the rest of the lisp system being built on top of it. 04:02:28 ZombieChicken: SBCL is compile-only, pretty much. So no. 04:02:31 Maybe, depends on the implementation. 04:02:53 It's not "compiled" in the same sense as traditional languages like C. 04:03:06 More along the lines of java byte code? 04:03:14 Not precisely. 04:03:21 Depends on the implementation. 04:03:23 that also depends on the implementation 04:03:45 This isn't a simple subject to discuss, is it? 04:03:57 Much more dynamic than that. You can compile code at runtime (explicitly by calling COMPILE or implicitly by the implementation as part of normal operation). 04:04:10 BigHugeDog [~QQ@221.0.13.125] has joined #lisp 04:04:16 JITed byte code? 04:04:20 no, native 04:04:38 Well, it could be JITed too. It's implementation-dependent. 04:04:52 A function is free to to be compiled/interpreted/JItted 04:04:55 again depending---abcl compiles to jvm---but if you're looking for "is it fully compiled or not" the answer can be "yes" 04:05:14 Anyway, be sure to give a weird look to anyone who tells you that lisp is an interpreted language. 04:05:15 A function can read a Lisp expression and then go EVAL it. 04:05:30 EVAL can possibly invoke the compiler. 04:05:32 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@146-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:05:59 the difference is however with C, your program gives an error and dies, you fix, recompile, and rerun it; with lisp, you get an error, you recompile, and continue running it 04:06:18 How about this: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_a.htm 04:06:22 Is it possible to compile Lisp code into a stand alone binary? 04:06:37 ZombieChicken: Go to the pages for these implementations and read through the descriptsions: CCL, SBCL, ABCL, CLISP, and ECL. 04:06:44 Yes, but quite often the binary includes a Lisp system with eval. 04:06:45 :) 04:06:48 ZombieChicken: Some implementations can do that. SBCL has save-lisp-and-die, for instance. 04:07:09 Interesting 04:07:38 As a note, this touches on the heart of the difference between Common Lisp and, say, C or Python. 04:07:39 There's also http://www.xach.com/lisp/buildapp/ for SBCL 04:07:45 ZombieChicken: For initially learning CL, it's not really important to understand the details of the implementation. I recommend just picking CCL or SBCL and studying. 04:07:55 *pnathan* agrees with ThomasH 04:08:12 and some implementations compile to C 04:08:28 It may not be really important but I tend to like to know what is possible 04:08:43 ECL does; there is a port of ECL that runs on iPhones (or at least their simulator) 04:08:51 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 04:09:12 atm I'm looking at what CL can do just to get a bit of a grasp on the possiblities 04:10:00 str8 [~str8@63-226-220-91.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:12:17 -!- infiniteone [~infiniteo@c-76-126-91-167.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobiuWpdkd&fin2qu3R] 04:12:34 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.94.234] has joined #lisp 04:15:11 -!- pnathan [~Adium@64.126.142.148] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:15:55 ZombieChicken: Are you interested in writing libraries that are usable from, say C, or just thinking that CL uses libraries? 04:17:08 I'm trying to get a grasp on CL works and what can be done with it 04:17:23 s/on CL/on how CL 04:17:42 its not too hard 04:17:44 () 04:17:51 evaluation steps 04:18:29 I've been going through Practical Common Lisp a little at a time and I've grabbed stumpwm to have something solid to look at 04:18:52 ZombieChicken: Pick something simpler to look at. 04:18:59 I have to say that, having gotten used to reading C, CL is a touch hard to read 04:19:01 ThomasH: suggestions? 04:19:09 start with strings 04:19:10 lists 04:19:12 variables 04:19:14 output 04:19:16 input 04:19:17 ZombieChicken: Do you have emacs+SLIME? You also need ASDF+Quicklisp. 04:19:18 loops 04:19:35 ThomasH: Vim+slimv 04:19:41 I can't stand emacs 04:19:56 ZombieChicken: Ok, if you insist. Are you using Quicklisp? 04:19:59 O_O 04:20:09 Havn't looked at it, nor asdf 04:20:12 str8: ? 04:20:12 can't stand emacs 04:20:23 let me put it this way 04:20:27 you should try slime 04:20:31 its more then an editor 04:20:35 ZombieChicken: take the time to get quicklisp installed, I think it will handle ASDF for you. 04:20:43 when I installed OpenBSD into a KVM, I was using ed to handle configs 04:20:46 it was made around lisp, which most people dont realize or even try to tap potential of 04:20:49 ASDF should be part of most implementations these days, I think 04:21:16 ZombieChicken, type into your REPL #+asdf :yep #-asdf :nope 04:21:18 ZombieChicken: That's not something to advertise, OpenBSD has vi. 04:21:41 Wait, hmm 04:21:47 ThomasH: I didn't see it when I was in that system, but thanks for the heads up 04:21:48 mine has emacs 04:21:51 Might need a require thing? 04:22:04 ZombieChicken, what implementation are you using? 04:22:16 SBCL 04:22:21 steel bank 04:22:23 eeewwwww 04:22:24 It has ASDF 04:22:24 Should have ASDF 04:22:36 (member :asdf2 *features*) 04:22:48 its nice, but most tutorials are for clisp 04:23:19 ZombieChicken: Follow the instructions here -> http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ 04:23:40 ISF [~ivan@187.106.49.167] has joined #lisp 04:24:52 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:25:20 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-18-50.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 04:25:51 its nice, but most tutorials are for clisp <- huh? 04:26:15 ZombieChicken: Work through Practical Common Lisp, jumping into Stumpwm code is not going to be an efficient way to learn CL. 04:27:01 ThomasH: I was just using it for something to look at. I have no intention of trying to modify it. The reason I grabbed it was it is the only program I know of that is written in CL atm 04:27:38 ZombieChicken: The confusion is normal (compile/interpreted/repl...). Read PCL and keep walking. Lisp is pretty awesome. 04:27:49 ZombieChicken: Look for something simpler in CLiki -> http://www.cliki.net/ 04:28:45 sbcl compiles everything to machine code by default. try (disassemble 'somefunction) 04:28:45 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:03 ZombieChicken: Also look at http://common-lisp.net/ 04:30:34 ZombieChicken: And, of course, you can always just browse git repositories on Github, Gitorious, etc. 04:31:29 ThomasH: Do you have any suggestions for a fairly simple program I can mess around with? 04:32:00 the PCL book will include some 04:32:24 ZombieChicken: I'm guessing you want something with a GUI that you can poke around on? 04:32:38 ThomasH: I'm fine with the command line 04:32:48 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:33:01 however is PCL has some working code, that should be fine 04:33:28 -!- ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:34:43 its nice, but most tutorials are for clisp <- huh? <- yeah 04:34:46 ZombieChicken: Yeah, I'm not really sure where to send you, PCL has some great examples. Anything beyond that is going to require that you're at least comfortable with PCL and for best results you need to be using Quicklisp. 04:35:03 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:35:10 -!- BigHugeDog [~QQ@221.0.13.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:35:20 I have Quicklisp installed 04:36:01 Good, that will make things much easier. Ok, I need to quit avoiding work. I'm going to heat up a cup of coffee and try to get something done. 04:36:43 pnathan [~Adium@76.178.164.157] has joined #lisp 04:36:45 thanks for the help 04:37:35 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:37:48 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:39:48 FreeArtMan [~fam@213.175.106.134] has joined #lisp 04:40:01 -!- asdfhjkl [~bob@i5E879AE1.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:40:16 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 04:40:26 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 04:41:22 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 04:41:26 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 04:42:00 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 04:42:09 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 04:42:12 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 04:43:01 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 04:43:10 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 04:43:37 -!- scombinator [~user@203.171.40.170] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:43:52 -!- Harag [~phil@dsl-244-48-108.telkomadsl.co.za] has left #lisp 04:46:23 -!- dsabanin [~dsabanin@89.22.161.11] has quit [Quit: dsabanin] 04:49:46 str8 most CL tutorials are about common lisp the language, not about clisp or any other specific implementation 04:49:55 BigHugeDog [~QQ@221.0.13.125] has joined #lisp 04:57:58 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 04:59:31 -!- str8 [~str8@63-226-220-91.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:59:36 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@206.126.93.212] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 05:00:27 tlw8913 [~tenorplay@205.143.219.178] has joined #lisp 05:03:03 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.106.49.167] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 05:05:26 -!- tlw8913 [~tenorplay@205.143.219.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:06:10 tlw8913 [~tenorplay@nat3014.oc.edu] has joined #lisp 05:07:33 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:07:33 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-50-006.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:08:00 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 05:08:41 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-50-006.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 05:09:10 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 05:13:16 ZombieChicken: If you're still here, you can also look at Land of Lisp -> http://landoflisp.com/. It will give you an idea of what can be done in lisp. 05:13:51 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:14:02 I imagine you can expect me to be here quite often 05:18:16 sunmix [~user@223.205.20.103] has joined #lisp 05:18:55 -!- ghuntley [~ghuntley@CPE-60-225-85-11.hhui2.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: .] 05:18:57 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@220.227.122.149] has joined #lisp 05:21:22 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 05:22:00 -!- alvis [~user@tx-184-5-64-3.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:32:09 hefner [~hefner@c-69-255-57-56.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:16 Phoodus [~foo@d50-98-2-227.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 05:33:35 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:35:11 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 05:35:31 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:39:07 gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 05:40:06 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:40:47 ghuntley [~ghuntley@CPE-60-225-85-11.hhui2.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 05:40:56 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 05:41:10 -!- DataLinkDroid [~David@1.153.105.211] has quit [Quit: Bye] 05:41:34 I don't care for slimv, however for future refence you can use :r !sbcl --load foo.lisp to get output back into the buffer, you just need to end the script with something that will kill sbcl, like (quit) 05:41:37 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:42:01 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 05:42:16 probably missing the point of a SLIM? implementation, but just thought I would mention that incase it came in handy for someone else 05:43:46 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:44:38 -!- tlw8913 [~tenorplay@nat3014.oc.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:49:41 -!- bondar [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [] 05:50:24 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 05:50:47 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:51:03 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@213.175.106.134] has quit [Quit: Out of this 3D] 05:54:36 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:57:52 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 05:58:34 xyxu1 [~xyxu@58.41.1.16] has joined #lisp 05:58:34 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.16] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:58:49 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.11.165] has joined #lisp 06:00:59 -!- xyxu1 [~xyxu@58.41.1.16] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:01:11 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.16] has joined #lisp 06:03:40 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:04:05 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 06:04:46 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:05:26 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 06:06:00 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 06:07:06 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 06:09:15 teggi [~teggi@113.172.46.243] has joined #lisp 06:09:55 -!- cafesofie [~user@ool-18e4c9a0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:12:28 Harag [~phil@196.215.161.139] has joined #lisp 06:12:52 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:13:41 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:14:34 -!- gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:15:18 -!- rlb3`` [~user@204.62.13.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:15:55 ZombieChicken: Lisp development is supposed to be interactive. You should have an REPL buffer open in whatever development environment you're using. 06:15:59 -!- Harag [~phil@196.215.161.139] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 06:16:11 gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has joined #lisp 06:17:12 rlb3`` [~user@204.62.13.112] has joined #lisp 06:17:17 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:19:04 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 06:20:06 there a quick, standard way to reload/reeval code for testing? 06:20:16 within a CL implementation 06:20:21 ZombieChicken: REPL 06:20:50 ZombieChicken: You normally open a REPL and write stuff in it. 06:21:15 ZombieChicken: That's what ThomasH was talking about. 06:21:32 I'm refering to reloading a 'script', such as hello-world.lisp after modifications have been made 06:21:34 ZombieChicken: You usually don't work from the implementation, usually you work from SLIMV+VIM/SLIME+EMACS with a code buffer and an REPL buffer. In the code buffer, you compiling the forms, then test in the REPL. 06:22:14 dotemacs [u801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ulkgpgvfmzuomewi] has joined #lisp 06:22:27 The development environment handles updating the running lisp image when you use the buffer command. Did you go through the SLIMV tutorial? 06:22:48 ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has joined #lisp 06:22:53 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 06:23:33 http://kovisoft.bitbucket.org/tutorial.html 06:23:34 ykm [45ae3a34@gateway/web/freenode/ip.69.174.58.52] has joined #lisp 06:24:25 I've gone through that. I'm kind of wanting to just do this the hard way atm. SLIMV managed to start clobbering my tabbing, which I'm NOT a fan of 06:26:11 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 06:26:37 ZombieChicken: The hard way would be to have hello-world.lisp opened in VI, a lisp opened in a terminal, (load "hello-world") 06:27:05 that was what I was looking for and what I found after a little more reading 06:27:48 again, thanks for the help 06:28:25 I don't think people appreciate that, due to the interactive nature of lisp development, it is really important to understand and use development tools that support that. If you are going to stick with SLIMV/VIM, dig into those tools. 06:30:11 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-42.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:30:14 I came to lisp as a hard-core VI user. SLIME+EMACS was the only choice at the time. I just bit the bullet and learned to use them because that was the way you worked in lisp. I'm really happy that I did, too. VI has a certain aesthetic that is appealing, but it isn't compatible with lisp development. 06:31:16 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 06:31:23 I think I can understand their usefulness and the reason they are suggested, and I am sure I'll dig into it more but atm I want something that works and that I can understand 06:31:34 -!- schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:31:45 and that won't require me to learn a new language along side learning to use a new editor plus an interface 06:31:58 As long as you don't quit because you are frustrated with the tools. 06:32:06 schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 06:32:19 I'm doing it this way atm because I found the mentioned tools frustrating 06:32:34 -!- ykm [45ae3a34@gateway/web/freenode/ip.69.174.58.52] has left #lisp 06:33:09 It may be inefficent but it works, I understand it, and as I learn I have the option of doing things in a way that makes sense to me 06:34:24 that's a reasonable starting point, so long as you remember you have headroom to grow into more efficient ways of working 06:34:52 -!- gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has quit [Quit: LOLeaving] 06:35:28 gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has joined #lisp 06:35:44 I'm out, need to get some sleep, I'm not getting anything done right now. 06:36:39 I can already tell this is going to be an interesting language. The history alone is intriquing 06:39:13 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:41:42 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.11.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:41:44 tlw8913 [~tenorplay@nat3014.oc.edu] has joined #lisp 06:45:38 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.104.244] has joined #lisp 06:45:42 -!- ghuntley [~ghuntley@CPE-60-225-85-11.hhui2.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: .] 06:51:48 ghuntley [~ghuntley@CPE-60-225-85-11.hhui2.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 06:56:51 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:58:06 ykf3 [~user@114.205.86.94] has joined #lisp 06:58:25 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-69-212-230-24.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:58:26 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:00:15 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-125-157.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:00:17 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 07:00:18 -!- sunmix [~user@223.205.20.103] has left #lisp 07:00:25 -!- tlw8913 [~tenorplay@nat3014.oc.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:00:27 -!- ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has left #lisp 07:02:49 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:03:44 uwjweq [~jeyisu@HSI-KBW-046-005-177-112.hsi8.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 07:05:17 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-017.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 07:05:59 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 07:07:44 albacker [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:52 -!- albacker [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Changing host] 07:07:52 albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #lisp 07:08:07 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 07:08:43 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:10:33 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 07:15:25 what are you guys using for sending email? 07:16:15 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.113.57] has joined #lisp 07:16:45 splittist [d417faa6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.23.250.166] has joined #lisp 07:17:33 morning 07:19:32 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 07:21:17 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.203] has joined #lisp 07:21:17 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.203] has quit [Changing host] 07:21:17 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 07:21:18 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.113.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:22:07 anaumov [~anaumov@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has joined #lisp 07:23:26 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-121-227.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:23:48 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:24:45 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-69-212-230-24.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:24:45 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 07:26:26 bas_ [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 07:26:26 -!- bas_ is now known as Skola 07:27:01 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-121-227.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:31:18 -!- pnathan [~Adium@76.178.164.157] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:32:44 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-2-212.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:34:54 -!- tensorpudding__ [~michael@108.87.16.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:36:10 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 07:37:12 -!- Younder [~john@4.203.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:37:36 Younder [~john@4.203.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 07:39:40 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:41:28 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 07:42:55 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-055-203.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:43:04 -!- dim [~dim@prometheus.naquadah.org] has left #lisp 07:43:33 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-017.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:43:48 dim [~dim@prometheus.naquadah.org] has joined #lisp 07:47:04 kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 07:48:07 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:50:09 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 07:54:09 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:54:23 ferada [~ferada@dslb-088-069-113-017.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:55:01 -!- splittist [d417faa6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.23.250.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:56:18 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-218-200-111.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:56:27 superflit [~superflit@140.226.4.81] has joined #lisp 07:56:27 tlw8913 [~tenorplay@nat3014.oc.edu] has joined #lisp 08:01:12 -!- KDr2 [~kdr2@125.34.40.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:06:13 morning 08:06:18 hi 08:06:52 KDr2 [~kdr2@125.34.40.54] has joined #lisp 08:07:48 -!- albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:08:07 I am famous this morning! Woo! 08:08:45 ? 08:09:07 see planet.lisp and weep at the lack of high-quality photos of me on the Internet 08:09:35 -!- KDr2 [~kdr2@125.34.40.54] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:10:39 -!- yroeht [~yroeht@x.yroeht.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:10:41 whats that 08:12:49 KDr2 [~kdr2@125.34.40.54] has joined #lisp 08:15:12 -!- tlw8913 [~tenorplay@nat3014.oc.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:17:01 yroeht [~yroeht@x.yroeht.eu] has joined #lisp 08:17:27 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-vogoyeqqzsyaswwb] has joined #lisp 08:25:49 -!- KDr2 [~kdr2@125.34.40.54] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:26:49 plattlf [da18b3c9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.218.24.179.201] has joined #lisp 08:29:04 KDr2 [~kdr2@125.34.40.54] has joined #lisp 08:32:26 -!- plattlf [da18b3c9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.218.24.179.201] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:40:37 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:42:52 mishoo: i use cl-smtp. sometimes my own, incompatibly hacked version. 08:43:47 H4ns: yeah, I'm using that too.. I thought I found a bug, but nope, it was my bad. 08:44:36 (well, cl-smtp should deal better with UTF8; I hacked my own mime encoding and that's where I screwed up, forgot to encode a single dot on a line) 08:45:35 mishoo: cl-smtp is nice for simple cases. when i need to do something more complicated, i use my own version and cl-mime 08:50:48 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-11-52.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 11.0/20120310011224]] 08:58:56 fievel [~fievel@guru.ipv6.fievel.be] has joined #lisp 08:59:10 hi 09:00:10 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-58-165-252-158.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:00:48 i'm begginer at lisp: i have the following code : http://pastebin.com/P6Q0LAwg which give me an error : Symbol's value as variable is void: file1 09:01:08 i'm sure "BAG_ROOT" is well defined in environment 09:01:14 can you help me ? 09:01:46 fievel: no, but emacs can 09:02:05 fievel: you need to use an editor that does the indentation and parentheses matching for you automatically. 09:02:20 fievel: most of us use emacs, because it is pretty good at that. 09:03:58 m7w [~chatzilla@31.24.92.4] has joined #lisp 09:04:21 hacks and frivolity: http://vintage-digital.com/hefner/misc/spectraltron-0.jpg 09:05:03 i use standard vim and i have parentheses matching 09:05:38 fievel: you have a problem with your parentheses and vim did not help you prevent that. 09:05:43 hefner: emacs 22? 09:06:13 haha, busted 09:07:48 hadn't thought about it. I'd probably be annoyed if emacs suddenly changed. 09:08:04 -!- fievel [~fievel@guru.ipv6.fievel.be] has left #lisp 09:08:34 hefner: i've heard there's lexical scoping in emacs 24 09:10:57 I'm glad the fires are still burning hot enough to drag emacs kicking and screaming into the '80s. 09:11:03 one thingi i do not understand is how you manage to use courier for programming 09:11:06 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-58-165-252-158.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:12:02 tlw8913 [~tenorplay@nat3014.oc.edu] has joined #lisp 09:12:39 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-42.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:14:16 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:14:29 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 09:14:29 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 09:14:29 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:14:42 baldur_ [~baldur@fire-out.ru.is] has joined #lisp 09:15:28 what should I use instead? 09:15:45 hefner: bitstream vera sans mono 09:15:52 well, considering you're on emacs 22 i do not know... imo fixed is better 09:15:54 I'd like a nice serif font, but emacs wouldn't format the code very well. 09:16:00 i personally love Ubuntu Mono 09:16:52 hefner: oh, serifs. forget my suggestion. 09:17:37 i think the display resolutions are not there yet to use serif font for coding 09:18:01 -!- kilon is now known as kilon[] 09:18:29 -!- kilon[] is now known as kilon[][][][][][ 09:19:16 -!- schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:19:44 -!- kilon[][][][][][ is now known as kilon 09:19:49 schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 09:20:29 once you get past 1600x1200 fixed looks too thin 09:20:30 09:20:53 maxm-: it's the DPI that matters 09:21:08 *maxm-* switched to antialiased consolas, look like this http://i.imgur.com/6C0Vz.png 09:21:10 -!- anaumov [~anaumov@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:21:15 1920x1080 on a 15" screen would probably be enough 09:21:24 anaumov [~anaumov@dslb-088-070-083-151.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:21:44 TheMue [~TheMue@p5DDF5CF2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:22:32 -!- kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 09:22:44 maxm-: well, this is what i have: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4093182/ubuntu-mone-irc.png 09:22:56 ouch 09:22:59 -!- TheMue [~TheMue@p5DDF5CF2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:23:01 kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 09:23:04 not really 09:23:18 TheMue [~TheMue@p5DDF5CF2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:23:37 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@037096087232.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 09:23:42 I'd advocate computer modern at this point, but since I've just publically said that I'm not a programmer, no-one should listen to me 09:24:02 Matt_S_G [~Matt_S_G@gateway/tor-sasl/mattsg/x-78535695] has joined #lisp 09:27:33 now that you're famous, I imagine you'll be recording a pop album and launching your own scent and a line of women's handbags. 09:28:22 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-169-157.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:29:01 -!- kanru` [~user@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:29:48 kanru` [~user@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 09:30:19 -!- Intensity [XBqzWttSqK@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:30:31 -!- tlw8913 [~tenorplay@nat3014.oc.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:31:38 I've only got 15 minutes to do it in 09:34:04 -!- baldur_ [~baldur@fire-out.ru.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:34:14 antonv [2e35c31b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.27] has joined #lisp 09:34:40 Monofur has really grown on me 09:35:05 echo-are` [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 09:37:28 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:38:51 yikes. that's like MS Comic Sans meets The Matrix. 09:39:35 ..but maybe it does grow on you. 09:43:06 Intensity [4c1eFHrfL0@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 09:43:13 I have been using Inconsolata, and find it very legible 09:46:37 my criterion #1 for choosing monospace font: does it have characters outside the latin-1 set? 09:47:02 hefner: well, that was my first reaction too, but now I cannot really stand any other fixed-width font 09:49:38 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:49:52 IMHO setting up fonts.conf correctly with regards to anti-aliasing etc is more important then fonts 09:50:03 ie default rgba non-hinted antialising is horrible 09:50:04 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:50:54 -!- KDr2 [~kdr2@125.34.40.54] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:50:56 squint a little and it looks fine. 09:51:23 Ubuntu has some nice font rendering patches 09:51:36 with those in place, and slight hinting it's all nice 09:51:49 *maxm-* does a trick of doing (make-frame '((name . "emacs-foobar"))) in emacs for specific frames, then you can put emacs-foobar*font: whatever into ~/.Xresources, and make it different on desktop, laptop etc 09:52:42 bytecode hinting only works on fonts that have manual hinting, autohinting works well on bitstream vera sans 09:54:18 *maxm-* has a hack in fonts.conf where I can turn these params on/off in a font name.. ie Lucida Sans Typewriter-12:family=hintfull,noautohint,antialias 09:54:42 zmyrgel [~user@193.64.112.22] has joined #lisp 09:55:05 I can't wait until we get higher DPI screens and can put this hinting nonsense behind us. 09:55:06 unfortunately that does not work in emacs, as these do not survine pass through multiple layers of emacs font engines 09:55:16 hefner: +1 09:56:50 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0ADD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:01:38 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:01:45 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-168-199.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:03:15 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-168-199.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:06:06 *maxm-* just realized his IRC font screenshot is actually lucida sans typewriter-11, as I used above frame font trick, to have it different from default emacs one 10:08:40 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 10:20:32 blitz_ [~blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 10:23:17 simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:23:17 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 10:23:17 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 10:23:49 nauar [~nauar@ip235200.bcn.altecom.net] has joined #lisp 10:27:28 tlw8913 [~tenorplay@nat3014.oc.edu] has joined #lisp 10:35:17 pirateking_ [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:35:48 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-055-203.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:39:00 -!- kilon 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11:30:20 add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-11-21.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 11:30:32 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:32:10 homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-168-199.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:34:46 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-168-199.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:37:05 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-2-212.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:42:09 tlw8913 [~tenorplay@nat3014.oc.edu] has joined #lisp 11:47:00 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 11:47:21 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-055-203.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:49:20 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 11:52:31 bas_ [~bas@89.184.179.185] has joined #lisp 11:53:32 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@186.212.194.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:54:49 -!- bas_ is now known as Skola 12:00:53 -!- tlw8913 [~tenorplay@nat3014.oc.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:02:16 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 12:11:49 jollyG [~JollyG@KennPAT.uncc.edu] has joined #lisp 12:14:07 -!- tvaalen [~r@67.217.170.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:19:40 tvaalen [~r@67.217.170.35] has joined #lisp 12:23:04 -!- zmyrgel [~user@193.64.112.22] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:23:49 LiamH [~healy@wireless-206-196-162-7.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 12:24:43 ainm [~ainm@206.Red-79-158-106.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:26:33 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-11-21.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:27:46 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:28:25 add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-11-21.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 12:30:45 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-69.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 12:34:09 -!- alek_b [~alek_b@99-10-120-63.lightspeed.sndgca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:35:02 -!- pirateking_ is now known as pirateking-_- 12:35:40 -!- Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483A075.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:39:08 -!- a7p [a7p@9.83.238.89.in-addr.arpa.manitu.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:43:05 sezo [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 12:45:12 jingtao [~jingtaozf@115.199.192.43] has joined #lisp 12:46:20 Hi guys, I found that (= 1/4 0.25) ==> T, but (= 1/5 0.20) ==> NIL, could you tell me why it is like so? 12:48:35 jingtao: floating point is 'broken' on computers. 12:48:48 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-11-21.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 12:49:11 schmx: what you means? 12:49:45 schmx: I found that (= 1/5 0.2) is also ==> NIL 12:49:47 jingtao: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.22.6768 12:50:01 jingtao: http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E19957-01/806-3568/ncg_goldberg.html 12:50:02 eh 12:50:29 jingtao: search in that page for "there are two reasons" 12:51:48 a7p [a7p@9.83.238.89.in-addr.arpa.manitu.net] has joined #lisp 12:52:27 -!- antonv [2e35c31b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.27] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:53:17 schmx: Thanks very much! 12:55:26 Another question, how the ` is transferred in common lisp,can you give me some url links? I found that (let ((g 'g1) (n 'n1)) ``(,',g ,',n)) ==> '(G1 N1), and (let ((g 'g1) (n 'n1)) ``(',,g ',,n)) 12:55:46 ehu [~ehuels@109.32.114.42] has joined #lisp 12:56:15 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:56:17 http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/paulgraham/glsbq.lisp 12:56:34 jingtao: you can read the paper "Quasiquotation in Lisp" 12:57:43 tlw8913 [~tenorplay@nat3014.oc.edu] has joined #lisp 12:58:38 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 12:59:01 -!- homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-168-199.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:00:01 Thanks all, That's what I want to search. 13:02:04 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-168-199.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:02:39 -!- ainm [~ainm@206.Red-79-158-106.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:02:45 ainm [~ainm@206.Red-79-158-106.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:52 -!- ykf3 [~user@114.205.86.94] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:06:13 -!- impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442544.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:07:18 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 13:08:31 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@100.Red-88-11-23.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:25 xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has joined #lisp 13:11:34 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-adgfpocgfuikrhyv] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:14:19 -!- dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:15:48 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d013baf.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:09 hi 13:16:10 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A075.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:37 ZombieChicken: Have a look at http://cliki.net/REPL 13:17:31 -!- tlw8913 [~tenorplay@nat3014.oc.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:21:53 tlw8913 [~tenorplay@nat3014.oc.edu] has joined #lisp 13:22:38 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c122-107-122-25.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:23:20 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:24:13 -!- echo-are` [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:25:12 -!- LiamH [~healy@wireless-206-196-162-7.umd.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:27:30 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 13:27:49 -!- fantasticsid [~user@2001:da8:8001:708:839:b1d5:9fd5:c7c0] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:28:04 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 13:28:08 Greetings lispers 13:29:53 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-17-137.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:32:37 hrm is there a different idiom for hooks in CL? 13:33:02 CLOS :BEFORE, :AFTER, and :AROUND methods, perhaps. 13:33:13 oGMo: hooks is hooks 13:33:38 CLOS aux methods are CLOS aux methods 13:33:51 -!- ainm [~ainm@206.Red-79-158-106.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ainm] 13:33:59 sure 13:34:12 dto [~user@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:13 killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has joined #lisp 13:34:45 Xach: Yeah, good point. hooks can just be a list of functions that get run at a particular time, so you can easily add to the list. 13:35:01 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0ADD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:35:27 -!- jingtao [~jingtaozf@115.199.192.43] has quit [Quit: bye] 13:35:50 It would be kinda nice to have trivial-hooks or similar, so you wouldn't have to roll the same handful of trivial usage patterns each time. 13:36:49 cl-hooks looks neat 13:37:10 d'oh 13:37:14 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:37:18 probably overkill for what i need but why reinvent 13:37:19 good morning 13:37:31 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 13:37:36 *Xach* has not yet added bazaar support to ql 13:37:59 argh, not in QL :) heh 13:38:47 and yes bzr ;/ 13:40:24 I'll set it up 13:44:33 baldur__ [~baldur@fire-out.ru.is] has joined #lisp 13:48:09 cl-hooks does look like a solid idea. Much more interesting than I would have considered. 13:48:17 Fare [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:18 pnathan [~Adium@76.178.164.157] has joined #lisp 13:50:31 -!- nauar [~nauar@ip235200.bcn.altecom.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 13:50:34 my piddling-plugins thing provides a sort of hook mechanism, in sense. 13:52:45 -!- kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 13:53:47 ainm [~ainm@206.Red-79-158-106.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:51 I was amused to observe in real life the predictable race condition during change-class, where methods become applicable on the object, but the new slots aren't fully initialized yet. 13:54:32 urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-192-240.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 13:55:03 I never claimed this was a good idea, but I think I'll keep doing it anyway. 13:56:05 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-69.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:57:17 Blargh. I really hate how the basic lisp libraries are all overlapping with eachother and the built-in functionality in the lisp implementations. 13:58:38 foom: you should totally write a library to fix that 13:58:55 foom: don't worry, it's not a problem. Write CDR and prepare for the next round of standardization in 20 years. 13:58:56 perhaps even a library distribution system. 13:59:13 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:59:14 The library distribution system is the first (awesome) step. 13:59:14 I mean, write a CDR http://cdr.eurolisp.org/ 13:59:33 The next is to make everyone stop rolling their own crap and depend on other libraries, cause it's now easy. 13:59:42 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-69.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 13:59:49 Then, finally, adopt those core libs into the lisp impls, and eliminate the redundancy there. 13:59:59 Done! 14:00:06 I don't know, it's often easier to roll your own stuff anyway, at least in the short term. 14:00:08 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:00:44 What can be easier than (ql:quickload "foo")? 14:00:45 foom: which basic libraries ? 14:01:25 foom: gigamonkey talked a bit about the concept at ILC 2010 14:01:32 foom: You're a little too authoritarian. Notice that no one was forced to use Quicklisp, it simply caught on because it worked well? 14:02:01 ThomasH: maybe, but i'd still love to see the set of personal utility libraries drop from 15 to something like 4 or 1 14:02:11 foom: not having to read the source code of "foo" because there's no documentation of foo 14:02:26 1+ Kryztof 14:02:31 fe[nl]ix: things like: babel, trivial-features, flexi-streams, cffi, bordeaux-threads, usocket. Basic functionality. 14:02:51 Kryztof: Indeed. I thought of mentioning that, but I figured I'd let someone else do it. :) 14:03:17 glad to be of service 14:03:27 bah, one comment on my interview, and it's about the lolme photo 14:03:40 so much for fame 14:03:40 even if there is documentation, it's still effort to read it. 14:03:46 The biggest problem *other* than the 15 (all commonly used) ways to do basic things is that there's no easily accessible integrated documentation. 14:04:09 foom: I hope to change that to some degree 14:04:11 foom: then write that damn documentation system 14:04:16 Something like the python stdlib docs for a recommended subset of basic lisp libraries would be nice. 14:04:27 Xach: I already saw that, yea. 14:04:34 foom: uniformity will be hard but accessibility/availability will be doable 14:04:35 can be pretty much done with markdown 14:04:39 so, speaking of standardization.. it's 2012. How many CLs implement extensible sequences? 14:04:52 some multi-lingists here should add lisp syntax highlighting to redcarpet 14:04:55 fe[nl]ix: the system doesn't need to be written, I'm sure there's 20 of them already. :) 14:05:06 foom: While we're at it, lets get rid of all implementations except for 1. 14:05:20 foom: I see no good one 14:05:27 and that is what github uses, so you'll automatically get all readme.md's color highlighted too 14:05:41 ThomasH: no, why? multiple impls is fine, as long as everyone can implement one common API for basic things. 14:05:51 If that's not possible, sure, eliminate everyone who doesn't agree. :) 14:06:16 hefner: maybe it would help adoption if there was a library that took advantage of extensible sequences -- perhaps to implement persistent data structures? 14:06:32 hefner: maybe it would help adoption if there was a library that took advantage of extensible sequences -- perhaps to implement persistent data structures? 14:06:35 err 14:06:37 foom: Woah! I thought we were simplifying here to the 1 true way. How are you going to accomplish that if there are multiple implementations floating around. Heretic! 14:06:41 sykopomp: indeed, if that was useful at all :-) 14:06:46 let the purge beign 14:06:49 begin 14:07:09 whatcho purging dto ? 14:07:11 sykopomp: on a more serious note, let's write a new CL implementation using CLOS for everything. 14:07:11 ThomasH: Nah, the one true *API*! That's totally different. 14:07:26 pjb: I think sellout has something like that, for CL itself. 14:07:40 schmx: i'm kidding about implementations and personal utility libraries :) 14:07:47 oh! 14:07:48 pjb: I like that idea, "Meta-object Lisp", then I can write methods for things like LENGTH. 14:08:21 There's certainly opportunity to simplify some parts of CL. 14:08:58 Kryztof: there, fixed! 14:09:07 pjb: It would be interesting to see if persistent data structures that work with CL's sequence library could catch on. 14:09:19 hard to agree on things that CLHS already specifies.. Sometimes a person discovers a "trick" and its so neat, they grow to love it and disregard any better ways. I'm still convinced that an if someone who never used that idiom, will take at least 20 seconds to decipher what (mapcan #'list '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6)) is for 14:10:02 is the CL spec still non-free? 14:10:24 It depends on how hard to look. 14:10:26 maxm-: Hopefully not 20 seconds each time. 14:10:29 how hard you look, rather 14:10:39 maxm-: that does not take 20 seconds 14:10:54 (well, took like 5 for me) 14:11:07 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 14:11:28 It may or may not be non-free, depending on what you believe the license of the (not-100%-final) work product of the standardization committee is. 14:11:35 -!- ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has left #lisp 14:11:52 A lot of people believe that's freely redistributable, and nobody has said it's not, so, I guess it is. 14:12:53 i don't think it is free. yet most NASA imagery, being taxpayer funded, is not eligible for copyright protection, 14:13:11 I don't think NASA took any photos of the CL spec. 14:13:22 i mean it's a work of the US government 14:13:23 Though I like the way you're going with it. 14:13:34 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-121-227.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:35 pjb: already possible with your own package.. I did it for specific DSL (the easely? parser thing).. You start with defgeneric's for basic indexing, ie (get-1 obj i) (get-2 obj i1 i2) (get-3 obj i1 i2 i3), then macro (get parent &rest indexes), then write wrappers for lists, hashes, etc 14:13:45 the public receives the benefit of the space photos and data in exchange for their money 14:13:46 Xach: is there a dependency graph of the quicklisp libraries available? 14:14:14 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:14 foom: no, but it's fairly easy to generate. it's also pretty tangled and unreadable with graphviz. 14:14:21 pjb: some slowdown, but with SBCL speeds not much.. Altho its hard to do the "mind reboot" from your own custom world to standard CL and back 14:14:27 Maybe something like, popularity by transitive dependencies in the repository would be more useful. 14:15:05 foom: (provided-systems t) will give you a list of all ql system objects, and (required-systems system) will give a list of dependencies for an individual system. 14:15:05 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Public_domain#Works_ineligible_for_copyright_protection 14:15:23 X-Scale [name@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has joined #lisp 14:15:23 optikalmouse [~user@76.9.199.178] has joined #lisp 14:15:29 dto: Are you saying "the CL spec is the product of the U.S. government"? 14:15:49 Xach: no it's a product of a vast corporate conspiracy that stretches into the United States government 14:15:53 btw, does anyone object to asdf trying to enforce utf-8 encoding on source code by default, unless specified otherwise? 14:16:05 Xach: fucking Barak Obama was involved in a black ops to create the spec and remove any rivals. 14:16:11 Xach: i guess that would be the issue 14:16:12 optikalmouse: less noise, please. 14:16:19 Xach: sorry, need coffee :S 14:16:35 Fare: That really should be done by the lisp implementation...but it's a good idea for *someone* to do. 14:16:50 Fare: I suspect it would be good to ask in a place where SBCL on Linux is not the dominant use-case. 14:16:56 Like lisp-hug 14:16:59 Fare: do it, ignore the purists clutching their desk size vintage lisp machines and muttering about ebsdic 14:17:10 Or Russians using Windows. 14:17:30 milanj [~milanj_@212-200-192-196.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 14:17:34 I think even windows text editor supports utf-8 files by now. 14:17:36 russian web is pretty much utf-8 these days, koi-8 is slowly dying off 14:17:51 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0ADD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:18:01 ebcdic :p 14:18:09 dto: If you posed that question on comp.lang.lisp, I bet you'd get some useful answers. 14:18:36 none of the asdf-supported implementations uses EBCDIC. ASCII and extensions everywhere. Yay. 14:18:37 Fare: how do you specify otherwise? 14:18:39 Xach: my question is whether CL being funded by DARPA makes the spec free, yeah 14:18:52 Xach: (:file "myfile" :encoding :latin1) 14:18:57 for example there are exceptions to the NASA thing when ESA is involved 14:19:16 except you will have to :defsystem-depends-on something that recognizes the :latin1 (hook available). 14:19:17 unfortunately many windows editors add useless BOM to utf8 files 14:19:19 Xach: i'm not sure if i want to post on usenet 14:19:47 problem being of course that translating those encodings to a :external-format argument is totally implementation-dependent. 14:19:49 Fare: so someone who wants to keep their old software working must edit their source code? 14:20:15 Rather than, say, setting up something in the environment around loading? 14:20:19 Xach: or maybe their OS ran recode on the source files for them. :) 14:20:22 IF their software cannot go through UTF-8, they may have to either (1) convert to utf-8, or (2) edit the .asd. 14:20:55 or (3) use that hook to restore previous external format. 14:21:30 or (4) keep using the same old ASDF, since we're talking about old software. 14:21:31 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.94.1] 14:21:38 That source files aren't either in a consistent encoding, or can declare their own encoding, is pretty crazy IMO. 14:21:43 did I say ASDF? He's probably using an old defsystem, anyway. 14:21:43 the first thing I would have changed with CL standard, is to have *LOAD-HOOK* so you can bind custom vars that are auto-restored after each file 14:22:01 ie *current-testsuite* etc 14:22:04 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@100.Red-88-11-23.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 14:23:05 I don't know how to get utf-8 on Genera, Corman, RMCL or GCL, but I'm not too worried about that. 14:23:33 What! Not concerned about Genera! 14:24:26 *j_king* chuckles. 14:24:27 maxm-: ASDF has an :around-compile hook, but I purposefully avoided an :around-load hook, for the sake of implementations such as ECL that link .o's together. 14:24:29 -!- baldur__ [~baldur@fire-out.ru.is] has left #lisp 14:24:32 implementing utf-8 on Genera would be a cute hack, if I ever dig my macivory out of the closet 14:24:40 Xach: testing it once per trimester is enough for me. 14:24:43 Clearly you just need to depend on Babel to translate the utf-8 to uh...ascii? for those. 14:25:37 it would be very nice if (ql:quickload :some-big-iron-package) would download sources in EBCDIC and asdf would be able to compile them seamlessly (on implementations that support EBCDIC, which unfortunately are not a lot). 14:26:05 -!- tlw8913 [~tenorplay@nat3014.oc.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:26:25 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 14:26:29 pjb: sure. with so many resources to spend in the lisp community, that is clearly something that should be made a priority. 14:26:44 pjb: with the latest asdf, you could do it by specifying :encoding :ebcdic in your defsystem. 14:26:59 "ebcdic" is not a good name for an encoding. 14:27:11 *maxm-* welcomes H4ns to "anti dicking-around" club 14:27:20 foom: like :ascii, there are variants. 14:27:24 yep. 14:27:30 but they're worse. :( 14:27:31 :ebcdic-037 ? 14:27:50 dto: why? 14:27:52 CP500 is the most common. 14:29:08 tlw8913 [~tenorplay@nat1002.oc.edu] has joined #lisp 14:30:11 Fare: as long as we talking about asdf, do you by any chance plan on doing any fixes to compile/load plan order code? My pet peeve is that load order differs, depending which sources need to be compiled. I tried fixing it myself but gave up 14:31:09 maxm: not sure what you want, but sounds like a big refactoring. 14:32:00 you want asdf to first traverse as if everything needs to be compiled, then retraverse based on actual needs, but preserving the previous ordering? 14:32:20 Fare: yea I thought so.. the basic problem is it does depth first search for stuff to compile, then does the load. So if if I have sources A B C, and all are dirty, then load order is A B C. If all are clean, then load order is A B C. If C is dirty, load order is C A B 14:32:50 I know :serial is a workaround, but with large codebase its a problem, where you change 1 line in utility file, then wait 5 minutes for rebuild 14:32:55 maxm: or, you want xcvb. 14:33:17 asdf is in maintenance mode. 14:33:22 How's xcvb coming? 14:33:46 it's working. Not super-usable. Doesn't support Genera or RMCL. 14:33:55 Actually I forgot about it, is it stable enough? is common-lisp page the official home? 14:33:57 wow, that's a huge problem! 14:34:05 doesn't support Genera. What am I gonna do? 14:34:52 Kickstarter campaign 14:35:07 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.158.80] has joined #lisp 14:35:31 good thinking. 14:35:33 Fare: any word on an April venue? 14:35:40 more seriously, it supports sbcl, ccl, clisp, cmucl, ecl, and possibly (untested) allegro, lispworks pro (not personal), gcl 14:36:05 it's super-slow on ABCL, XCL 14:36:10 oh, it supports SCL, too. 14:36:23 Xach: got no answer from NEU :-( 14:36:31 and a no from Google. 14:36:35 Fare: I'm gonna try to switch my main project to it 14:36:40 no contact at MIT; gotta find myself one. 14:37:38 it has a bridge from ASDF, so you can have an XCVB library and it can be loaded from ASDF. 14:37:48 Fare: I assume (:asdf "foo") load quicklisp systems fine, if they are already downloaded/installed 14:38:03 the bridge isn't too clever on upgrading XCVB when needed, though, so that part is not finished. 14:38:04 -!- sezo [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Quit: #yhiselamu | www.yhiselamu.ee (EOF)] 14:39:19 Fare: this is for the boston commonlisp meeting? Didn't you hold it at MIT before? 14:39:43 maxm-: you might have to edit your CL source-registry and/or export CL_SOURCE_REGISTRY=$WHEREVER_QUICKLISP_PUTS_SOURCE_CODE//: 14:40:02 foom: Alexey Radul did the room reservation then, but he's in Ireland now. 14:40:23 *Xach* wouldn't mind visiting Ireland to speak 14:40:28 sezo [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 14:42:44 any news from Nikodemus's kickstarter-funded thingie? 14:43:24 Fare: maybe we'll know when he gets out of the basement 14:43:31 :( 14:43:36 (have not seen him around here for a while now) 14:44:36 reading xcvb manual, kind of upgrading the difficulty of migrating to it.. I have worse of both worlds, very interactive/adhoc development, and lots of code 14:44:43 He has recently kicked into high gear on the sbcl-devel list 14:44:50 I think he might be back in the mix! 14:44:58 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 12.0/20120321033733]] 14:44:59 probably a good sign that he is not squandering time on IRC 14:45:35 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 14:45:59 maxm: xcvb allows for interactive development. 14:46:07 The thing is called xcvb-driver. 14:46:18 kilon [~kilon@ppp-94-64-180-18.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 14:46:19 -!- uwjweq [~jeyisu@HSI-KBW-046-005-177-112.hsi8.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:46:28 You can (xcvb-driver:build-and-load "myprogram") 14:46:35 or (xd:bnl "myprogram") 14:46:41 and it should DTRT 14:46:56 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 14:47:08 Fare: yea I've read this part, but wondering how it would interact with slime, C-c C-c, and C-c C-k etc 14:47:32 xcvb-driver is loadable via asdf, so (require :asdf) (asdf:load-system :xcvb-driver) (xd:bnl "foo") 14:47:53 no current slime support. 14:48:09 can slime be convinced to share the asdf fasl cache? 14:48:17 well I'll give it a try and report here (not immediately but I'm finishing up large feature, and rework of directory structure / stability is next on the plate, so I'll try it then) 14:49:29 Fare: I did a hack that makes C-c C-k use the FASL cache location (also adds compilation policy into implementation name, so you debug/optimized fasls can live together) 14:49:40 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:49:58 Fare: if xvcb uses same code for ~/.cache stuff, then I think I'll be able to figure it out 14:50:08 it would be nice if C-c C-k respected the asdf :around-compile hook. 14:50:34 maxm: xcvb doesn't use the same code for caching, because it tries to be more deterministic 14:51:16 -!- xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:51:38 this is going to sound insane, but what's stopping someone from creating SWANK/SLIME support for Python or Ruby? I just noticed that R has SWANK 14:51:51 nothing 14:52:33 optikalmouse: i wonder who wrote the R backend for swank, and where did you discover about it... 14:52:43 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #lisp 14:52:52 jdz: Xof_ did? 14:53:07 well if you can serialize a Python program to an image... 14:53:12 http://common-lisp.net/~crhodes/swankr/ 14:53:14 ngz [~user@198.111.193.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:38 jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:04 i can only tell what's stopping me from making a python backed for slime: I don't write in python, otherwise I would've done that a long time ago 14:55:20 j_king: what have images got to do with slime? 14:55:33 could full support be done for python? for example what happens if you update class definition after you already allocated objects of that class 14:57:10 that's a question not for #lisp 14:57:26 sezo: same as if you do it in the repl 14:57:49 I'd love to have support for ruby and a way for it to hook into rails 14:57:55 benny` [~benny@i577A7A84.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:57:55 tensorpudding__ [~michael@108.87.16.88] has joined #lisp 14:57:58 stassats: i was thinking more like swank, nothing to do with slime 14:58:05 debugging right now consists of me using comint mode and require 'ruby-debug' -_-' 14:58:18 -!- benny` is now known as benny 14:58:36 j_king: yes, swank is a part of slime 14:58:42 from what I remember old instances will maintain their original class, as each object is simply a hash, that has __class__ referring to its original class, and classes are recorded by name, so defining new class replaces old one in the names dictionary 14:58:57 j_king: you don't need images for swank to work 14:59:03 antonv [5d7d31e8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.232] has joined #lisp 15:01:02 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-18-50.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:24 -!- Skola [~bas@89.184.179.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:02:27 stassats: yeah, not *really*. some pycon presenters demonstrated connecting to running python processes and injecting code. very hacky. requiring ast manipulation, reloading the entire interpreter state... you *can* make it work, afaik. 15:03:02 but why bother. there's lisp + slime. :) 15:03:15 *maxm-* did that :-) I used to drive my spaceship from emacs console connected from work 15:04:06 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-121-227.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 15:05:40 python actually makes it very easy, it has its own REPL exposed as a function you call, with arguments being stdin/stdout/stderr streams.. So you can have Python >>> prompt anywhere, ie a udp server or some other stuff, as long as you implement your streams right 15:06:20 j_king: indeed, I was curious about ruby because ruby is more like smalltalk and lets you monkeypatch :D 15:06:34 anyway, getting off-topic-ish now :S 15:07:06 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.128.88] has joined #lisp 15:07:06 and the slime source is threatening to steal my attention from work.. ;) 15:07:18 -!- pnathan [~Adium@76.178.164.157] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:09:57 ive considered implementing an elisp slider control with some slime hooks in it, so that people will be as excited about updating the code of a running game as you edit it, as they are watching bret victor do it 15:11:39 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:06 kanru`` [~user@61-228-144-148.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:05 blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:27 If that was my name, I would go by an internet handle of Brit Vector. 15:16:50 ahah 15:17:05 *Xach* hacks the vectors with lisp 15:17:34 hah. 15:17:37 morning tomodo 15:18:52 *Xach* wonders about the next Lisp band name: Zach and the Simple Vectors 15:19:38 pjb: do you have a collection of your clisp scripts somewhere? it could be interesting to skim through them to figure out some good practices of connecting to other software and how you (probably) use various compatibility layers (for instance, over CL's pathnames) 15:20:51 *nicdev_* would check out a band that goes as Zach and the Simpl 15:21:05 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 15:21:53 nicdev_: how about The Wild Inferiors? 15:22:11 'Auxillary Method' 15:22:33 *Xach* likes, can't wait for the ILC debut 15:22:41 at ENS there was a band "the garbage collectors" 15:22:56 (of caml background) 15:22:56 it'd probably be mispronounced in the Plains States, but otherwise, I think it's a winner. 15:23:00 dto: that sounds interesting i remember someone had a lisp IDE for iPad 15:24:11 pirateking-_-: i saw something interesting related to Scheme, but my guess is that everything it makes would be banned from appstore at the instant somebody made somebody interesting with it 15:24:46 blah, cl-hooks implements only for standard-object, even when it doesn't need to 15:25:25 - 15:26:15 Codea, is pretty cool (uses Lua) the only major downside is that you can't download and execute code 15:28:09 next apple will ask us to submit only apps whose computation terminates to their app tester algorithm 15:29:28 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:29:36 dto: as long as they publish it ;) 15:29:51 haha 15:31:08 hrm i'm surprised there's not a trivial-places or similar 15:32:17 oGMo: what would that do? 15:32:18 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-69.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:32:32 chupish [~chupish@ool-182c5af4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:52 hefner: return a place as a lambda, e.g., (get-place '(setf something)) => 15:33:29 how would that be useful? 15:33:37 *sykopomp* wrote a 'pointer' hack that relied on places for fun at some point. 15:33:43 so you can pass a place as a first-class object 15:34:13 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:34:31 for instance consider writing a hook system, it'd be nice to do (defun add-hook (place function) ...) 15:34:35 tiglog [~topeak@117.79.232.140] has joined #lisp 15:34:50 i don't see how it will be able to work 15:35:05 what do you mean? 15:35:09 dnolen [aa95640a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.170.149.100.10] has joined #lisp 15:35:37 setf is a macros not without a reason, you can't just make it first-class 15:36:05 er it's pretty trivial actually with a macro and get-setf-expansion 15:36:18 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.158.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:36:28 can you show it to me? 15:36:31 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-143-12.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Quit: bye] 15:36:44 http://paste.lisp.org/display/128594 something like this? 15:36:44 yeah i had a proof of concept awhile ago, otherwise i'll rewrite it 15:37:00 no 15:37:10 huh 15:37:35 interesting: apparently buildapp and alexandria:define-constant are not entirely friends 15:37:45 Was ist was was? 15:37:49 you have to properly use get-setf-expansion, since setf places can be more than a simple value 15:38:06 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:38:11 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-143-12.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 15:38:15 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-143-12.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:38:43 cmm: I'll be back in a bit, I'm dying to know the details 15:39:21 -!- tlw8913 [~tenorplay@nat1002.oc.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:39:35 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-69.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 15:40:16 oGMo: do you have your proof concept now? 15:40:19 yeah sec 15:40:34 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:41:27 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 15:42:22 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 15:43:02 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-143-12.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 15:43:17 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 15:43:59 my test is old and doesn't use the expansion as specified, but should be an easy fix because i do essentially the same thing elsewhere 15:46:44 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp 15:48:22 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-026.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 15:51:08 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-055-203.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:51:09 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 15:54:08 Xach: never mind (well, sort of). the --asdf-tree switch gets confised by old and moldy quicklisp software trees, since it obviously doesn't have quicklisp's picking-the-right-package-version skills 15:54:45 alexandria:define-constant is absolutely not to blame, obviously 15:54:48 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@220.227.122.149] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:56:47 espadrine [~thaddee_t@acces2373.res.insa-lyon.fr] has joined #lisp 15:56:52 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 15:59:11 hi Qworkescence 15:59:24 hello dto 15:59:39 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@037096087232.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:00:23 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@037096087232.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 16:01:37 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:01:38 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.32.114.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:08:31 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:09:02 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:13:32 Has the idea of sexp-sensitive merging been thought about before? 16:13:35 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-026.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:14:04 osa1 [~sinan@31.140.36.45] has joined #lisp 16:14:57 yes. 16:15:22 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 16:15:45 *Neronus* wonders what the the best way to spend the resources in the lisp community actually are (inspired by H4ns comment almost two hours ago) 16:15:57 What was his comment? 16:16:28 *sykopomp* votes for "write cool applications, open source the parts of it that seem like they could be more widely useful, if possible" 16:16:43 centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-149-106.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:54 14:26 < H4ns> pjb: sure. with so many resources to spend in the lisp community, that is clearly something that should be made a priority. 16:17:13 what resources have you got? 16:17:18 jjkola [~jjkola@xdsl-83-150-83-66.nebulazone.fi] has joined #lisp 16:17:44 some spare time and motivation? 16:18:05 That's the resources I assume he talked about 16:18:46 money can be a valuable resource too, since you can pay someone else 16:19:04 hmm, weird annoying CLOS race. While recompiling my (unmodified) defclass, about 1 in 30 times I'll get a no accessible method error on one of its accessors as another thread is playing with said object. 16:19:23 Is it too weird to use `?' and `!', like in scheme, in CL procedures? 16:19:32 didi: yes 16:19:34 Sure. What would you spend money on? 16:19:42 hefner: when you recompile a defclass, you effectively recompile a bunch of methods, which involves removing the method then adding it again 16:19:50 stassats: So, `p' and `f'? 16:19:53 Neronus: food, hookers 16:20:02 if you call the gf just when the method has been removed, it'll have no applicable methods 16:20:05 didi: p and setf-methods 16:20:05 Kryztof: that makes sense. no big deal. 16:20:08 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:20:08 stassats: And that's why you won't get it :) 16:20:16 stassats: Got it. 16:20:23 Neronus, The general consensus I've derived from some of the better lisp programmers about what to do with your time is "write lisp code, write libraries" (which includes improving other libraries) 16:20:48 start a company employing lisp programmers, and get other people to pay your company for quality lisp code 16:20:49 -!- jasond [~jason@50.56.230.33] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:21:01 Neronus: then you won't get any CL code from me 16:21:34 Qworkescence: Yupp; I've heard that oauth2 is a common request 16:21:34 -!- anaumov [~anaumov@dslb-088-070-083-151.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:22:07 Kryztof: That's the dream. Selling lisp to unsuspecting companies :) 16:22:19 didi, 'f' isn't used to denote mutation. It's used to denote the operator operates on a place 16:22:39 like in push... never mind :) 16:22:54 didi, you'll notice that more typically destructive functions are *prepended* with an 'n', but this is not always true (e.g., SORT) 16:22:54 Neronus: what do you think wall street spends its money on? 16:23:25 (I guess that isn't fair; they're really spending other people's money) 16:23:25 hefner: Making more money. And what stassats suggested. 16:23:32 and blow 16:23:59 Neronus, SETF, INCF, etc operate on a place (note the difference between SETQ and SETF, but ignore the case where you're SETQing a symbol macro) 16:24:51 Qworkescence: push also works on a place. But no f to be seen :) 16:24:55 stassats: this would have been faster if i wasn't being dumb, but http://paste.lisp.org/display/128597 16:25:12 -!- gkeith_lt [georgekeit@nat/google/x-ibnemvcyzeqaamyx] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:26:01 may need refinement for certain types of places 16:26:35 Neronus, yes indeed 16:26:42 so, how is it better than (lambda (value) (setf (car *x*) value))? 16:27:24 doesn't that bind dynamically? 16:27:28 nauar [~Grunt@135.Red-79-152-245.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:31 i need coffee 16:27:48 bind what? 16:27:51 *x* 16:28:07 Qworkescence: Hum. So there is a difference between "mutation" and "operating on a place"? 16:28:23 oGMo: it doesn't bind anything 16:28:58 didi, operating on a place could be non-destructive. That is, you could replace a value in (car x) without mutating what x is. 16:29:15 cmm: that's why i use the asdf manifest exported from quicklisp 16:29:26 didi, Most, if not all, of CL's -F functions will mutate 16:29:35 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 16:29:59 Qworkescence: I see. Thank you. 16:30:02 you can make (defmacro get-place (place) `(lambda (value) (setf ,place value))), but i would prefer to see the lambda directly 16:30:10 no you can't 16:30:25 will you stop me? 16:30:27 stassats: first off just doing the lamba will not work if you pass it to NO-REALLY in that example 16:30:46 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:31:08 also note that there are many more complex setf expansions which a simple form like that won't handle 16:31:33 e.g. (setf (get-pixel image :x x :y y) #xRGB) 16:31:52 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-088-069-113-017.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:32:20 what i wrote is of course trivial, but it lets you do things like "pass the place of this pixel" which can occasionally be useful 16:33:12 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.128.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:35:00 -!- osa1 [~sinan@31.140.36.45] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:35:50 so, it's not really a place then? 16:36:38 ? 16:37:55 gkeith_lt [georgekeit@nat/google/x-kbiguwxyiefszxbh] has joined #lisp 16:38:21 -!- ainm [~ainm@206.Red-79-158-106.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ainm] 16:39:17 this is a "place" as per "setf sets a place"; if you wish to define "place" differently, that's a different discussion 16:39:19 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-vogoyeqqzsyaswwb] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:40:15 if you want to define a lambda that takes both the place and the value, that's trivial, but not really necessary, since you could just use setf 16:40:19 Neronus, what interests you? 16:40:22 anyhow 16:41:02 oGMo: well, you evaluate the passed value at macroexpansion time and then use the resulting object 16:41:08 i would hardly call it a place 16:41:58 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:59 stassats: if you don't, you might as well use setf. the point is to do so. 16:42:30 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:42:37 Fare: That's kind of the point. Currently: My blog with fastcgi, and making websockets and parenscript play along to make parenscript-development more like a real lisp experience and less "compile-reload-cycle" like. But I don't think that any of that will bring lisp forward, nor will another published blog-engine (although mine doesn't use hunchentoot :) ) 16:43:23 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-24-163-252.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:43:36 Neronus: do what you want to use, because you'll find the motivation to do it, and if you want it, it's likely someone else does too 16:44:15 Fare: But that's just what I can see myself using lisp for in my spare time currently (besides crawling websites, parsing bibtex files and doing git-hooks) 16:44:49 oGMo: That's what I thought, too. Reminded me of the "the best tools were developed by people for their own use" line 16:45:03 Xach: oh, cool, didn't know about that (or about asdf manifests in general, come to think about it) 16:45:04 Although, in the case of ppcre, because of a bet :) 16:46:08 -!- chupish [~chupish@ool-182c5af4.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: be back later] 16:46:14 oGMo: i don't know what you might call this contraption, but it has nothing to do with places 16:46:18 cmm: it's not really an asdf feature. more of a quicklisp/buildapp synergy thing 16:46:25 pnq [~nick@AC826F13.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 16:46:25 try using it with (get-place *x*) 16:46:28 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.2] has joined #lisp 16:46:37 and with no-really 16:47:25 Neronus: i come from a more pragmatic background, and just working on immediately-useful things leads to more than enough opportunity as it is ;) 16:47:59 how to get setf function designator? something like #'(setf func) 16:48:08 that you can pass to funcall 16:48:19 oGMo: What's your background, then? 16:48:19 stassats: oh right, needs the base case 16:48:27 sezo: that would do 16:48:44 i'm getting undefined function error 16:48:55 #'(setf gethash) 16:49:25 (setf gethash) is not a function 16:49:58 what is it then? 16:50:09 [SLB] [~slabua@host89-69-dynamic.182-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:50:09 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host89-69-dynamic.182-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 16:50:09 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 16:50:09 sezo, stassats: I get a function back for that in my sbcl repl 16:50:19 sezo: it depends on the implementation. 16:50:47 sezo: a setf-macro 16:50:48 (setf ..) functions exist, but not all setf expansions are implemented in terms of them. 16:50:56 Xach: that works, very cool (even though I've already gc'ed the ql dist software directory, hard-working lazy slob that I am...) 16:51:02 sezo: the first argument is a place, not a value. So it can't be a function. 16:51:19 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-149-106.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:51:24 (in general) 16:51:32 oGMo: what are you using this thing for? 16:51:35 (macroexpand '(setf (gethash k h) v)) => (ccl::puthash k h v), t ; for example 16:54:37 oGMo: and how do you plan to make (get-place (getf *x* :y)) work? 16:54:51 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:59:48 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-69.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:00:12 stassats: getf already works 17:00:26 how? 17:01:25 (defparameter *x* nil) (defparameter *write-getf-y* (get-place (getf *x* :y)) (funcall *write-getf-y* 42) *x* => (:y 42) 17:01:39 and with no-really? 17:03:10 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 17:03:11 hrm the expander sadly doesn't expose the variable 17:03:45 if it would, it wouldn't work at all 17:04:02 *x* in the snippet you just pasted would return NIL at the end 17:04:17 -!- copec [~copec@64.244.102.140] has left #lisp 17:04:19 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:04:33 right but that's easily fixed for any place where vars/vals is nil 17:04:40 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-69.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 17:04:51 i hope that's enough indication of how broken this thing is 17:05:56 places are not first class in CL and you can't fake it 17:06:27 meh 17:07:12 what you did is just modification of objects, not places 17:07:21 you can obviously "fake" it for a large subset of places 17:08:05 I can easily fake it: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/d141c5636559ba3b?hl=en 17:08:35 excluding any places-that-take-places isn't the worst caveat 17:09:10 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 17:10:06 -!- sezo [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Quit: quit] 17:12:08 and, techincally, you're specifying the place to getf, not to get-place 17:14:51 -!- dto [~user@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:15:06 -!- TheMue [~TheMue@p5DDF5CF2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: TheMue] 17:16:23 alright, if you're so determined to use bad ideas, go ahead 17:16:42 -!- nauar [~Grunt@135.Red-79-152-245.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [] 17:17:50 heh 17:18:10 and to clarify, i would not call what is _returned_ a place; a better name for the function would be "get-place-accessors" or similar 17:18:28 i would get get-something-working-by-accident 17:18:31 s/get/call/ 17:18:43 meh 17:19:08 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:19:40 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-143-12.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:20:02 -!- achiu [~achiu@ip68-96-95-213.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 17:21:23 achiu [~arthurchi@216.174.109.254] has joined #lisp 17:21:58 and even in cases where it works, like (car *x), it won't work when you do (defparameter *x* '(1 2)) (defparameter *write-x* (get-place (car *x*))) (defparameter *x* '(1 2)) (funcall *write-x* 4) (print *x*) => (1 2) 17:24:17 oGMo: Eh, don't let stassats piss on your parade :) 17:24:39 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:25:34 kilon_alios [~kilon@athedsl-399186.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 17:26:26 -!- parabolize [~gyro@c-75-70-14-105.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:27:22 kilon_ [~kilon@athedsl-400520.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 17:27:32 jacius: heh, if i let any random irc person piss on my parade ;) 17:27:41 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:28:04 -!- kilon [~kilon@ppp-94-64-180-18.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:29:05 oGMo: I think place-utils' WITH-RESOLVED-PLACES could be useful to you: http://www.hexstreamsoft.com/projects/place-utils/doc/WITH_002dRESOLVED_002dPLACES.html#WITH_002dRESOLVED_002dPLACES 17:30:03 -!- kilon_alios [~kilon@athedsl-399186.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:31:09 Karl_H [~Karl_H@f049231089.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:31:28 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@100.Red-88-11-23.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:52 Hexstream: oh someone has done something for places then, interesting 17:33:18 dicking around in Lisp community is both a blessing and a problem. Its very likely you'll find someone who been dicking around along same lines as you trying to do.. But steals time from writing useful software 17:33:44 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-69.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:34:30 maxm-: I'm getting a bit tired of your self-assessed "yoda-like" wisdom. 17:34:54 my rule of thumb is, if it's a hard problem, you can find a solution .. if it's an easy problem, you'll have to write it ;) 17:35:30 -!- pnq [~nick@AC826F13.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:35:32 Hexstream: sorry man, meant no insult, your stuff actually looks interesting 17:35:41 Hexstream: I don't think his comment was 'yoda-like'. He wasn't talking backwards half the time and making it a pain to read 17:36:40 kilon [~kilon@ppp-94-64-189-106.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 17:37:36 maxm-: Doesn't have much to do with this specific intervention. Just something I've felt like saying for some time. I just think by this time your opinions are well-known and don't need to be repeated in all variations repeatedly... (Reader's discretion is advised.) 17:38:18 -!- Fare [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:38:23 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 17:38:25 pnq [~nick@AC826F13.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 17:39:30 Hexstream: btw, let-plus, didn't you want a destructuring let awhile back? 17:39:48 -!- kilon_ [~kilon@athedsl-400520.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:40:16 oGMo: https://github.com/Hexstream/explicit-bind is what I'll use when it's finished (it just needs some final touches). 17:40:24 ah 17:42:28 As much as I poke fun at personal utility libraries, I wish I'd started accumulating one years ago. It seems like I'm writing a lot of the same helpers repeated. 17:43:46 hefner: would be cool to have some kind of community process like jcp for getting stuff into alexandria or such 17:44:23 or maybe alexandria++, as breeding ground to test stuff, kind of similar to how boost is used as nursery for stuff eventually getting into libstd++ 17:45:10 -!- Karl_H [~Karl_H@f049231089.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:46:24 Is `hash-table-size' O(1)? 17:46:31 yes 17:46:35 Thanks. 17:46:51 If it is not, complain to your vendor! :-) 17:47:05 didi: why did you think it might be not? 17:47:14 stassats: I don't know. I'm learning. 17:47:26 stassats: Lists come to mind. 17:47:55 ainm [~ainm@206.Red-79-158-106.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:58 be sure not to confuse it with hash-table-count (but it's O(1) as well) 17:48:00 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.94.234] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:48:20 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.94.241] has joined #lisp 17:48:27 this is why programmers still need to be taught about elementary data structures :p 17:48:29 stassats: I actually DID confuse. 17:48:33 stassats: Thank you. 17:49:02 you can certainly imagine a stupid implementation of hash-table-count being O(n) 17:49:11 hefner: Indeed. 17:49:20 dlowe: the hash table, the object, and the RDBMS? 17:49:32 vervic [~vervic@vie-91-186-146-022.dsl.sil.at] has joined #lisp 17:49:36 hefner: i don't know, making it O(1) sounds much easier to me 17:50:21 -!- vervic [~vervic@vie-91-186-146-022.dsl.sil.at] has quit [Client Quit] 17:50:31 wccoder [~wccoder@S01060026f3c6bad7.no.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:33 so, it would be not stupid, but malicious 17:50:40 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-77-200.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 17:50:51 or somebody is trying to save every inch of bytes 17:51:09 vervic [~vervic@vie-91-186-146-022.dsl.sil.at] has joined #lisp 17:51:20 It could vary with OPTIMIZE SPEED/SPACE. ;P 17:51:22 didi: I'm impersonally curious as to whether or not you know exactly, without looking it up, with Big-O notation actually signifies 17:51:32 dlowe: I do. 17:51:38 -!- fukushima [~fukushima@z1.61-193-209.ppp.wakwak.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:52:03 didi: so what does it? (for science!) 17:52:32 dlowe: I have not interest of being quizzed by you, sorry. 17:52:45 s/not/no 17:52:51 well, hashtables are somewhat wasteful, plists would provide an ultimate space-saving 17:53:34 didi: It's okay if you don't know. 17:53:40 ..but not THE ultimate space-savings 17:53:58 Depends a lot on the specific data... 17:54:03 dlowe: Thank you. 17:54:22 dlowe: Now, let's see your personal definition! 17:54:25 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:54:37 oh, be nice. 17:54:47 Big-O notation signifies how loudly you go "Ohhhh!" when someone explains it. 17:55:33 jacius: or also, "OOoh yeah," if it has been a while since someone explained it to you. 17:55:40 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.164.117] has joined #lisp 17:56:10 Hexstream: Sure. It's the order of the maximum bound of a function's run time measured in "operations" 17:56:27 hydo [~hydo@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:35 Run time? I thought it could also represent space usage... 17:56:46 That's another letter 17:56:46 no one cares if you remember the difference between big omega, big theta, or a big round manhole cover 17:57:19 I also thought big O was sometimes used to describe lower bounds... 17:57:27 (Is that yet another letter?...) 17:57:28 snearch [~snearch@g225079040.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:57:37 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:58:15 uh, I would not have said that big-O implied run-time, or that there was a different letter for space 17:58:24 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 17:58:27 hefner: except for people hiring programmers 17:58:29 alvis [~user@tx-184-6-178-38.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:48 j_king: That's why they can't be trusted! 17:59:21 Kryztof: I bow to your proximity to the source. 17:59:31 I'm sure you guys all know this, but for folks who want a printed copy of On Lisp, i was able to do it through lulu.com for less than the cost of printing it locally and binding it myself. 18:00:06 save trees, read on screen 18:00:12 i know it's available online, but for programming books i prefer dead tree format, but can't justify the price of used ones on amazon ($120) 18:00:45 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:00:46 save your eyes and trees, read on an e-ink reader 8) 18:01:01 still not the same 18:01:05 true 18:01:10 Now here is a practical problem: I have a model (clos object with bunch of nested stuff possibly clos objects too), and I edit it with a dialog.. 18:01:24 I have copy-instance that can deep copy slots, everything works fine so far 18:01:25 dlowe: well, OK, but I would also say that I would expect most people also to happily use big-O to describe space complexity, and would be confused to find someone using a different letter 18:01:41 -!- hydo [~hydo@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: hydo] 18:02:01 but now part of my dialog edits sub-objects... When I click "reset" button, the view pointers back to sub-objects now point to wrong thing 18:03:03 maxm-: Have your copy-instance accept keyword args and... uh... the rest left as an exercise. 18:03:04 so I need a new copy type, something like "deep-first-then-shallow", that works like this.. if target slot is unbound, deep copy it. If target slot is bound, and is clos object, shallow copy them recursively 18:03:49 -!- Matt_S_G [~Matt_S_G@gateway/tor-sasl/mattsg/x-78535695] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:04:27 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 18:05:33 Hexstream: then basically I have to get all the copying logic in the copy-instance, which is kind of weird.. Plus what about stuff such as (before-edit-model (sub-obj1 sub-obj2)) (being-edited-model (edited-sub-obj1 newly-added-sub-obj2)) 18:05:35 maxm-: I'm confused... first you deep copy an unbound slot (?) and then you shallow copy a bound slot recursively (??). 18:06:22 mel0on [1000@h-205-84.a146.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 18:06:24 maxm-: Copying is hard. I'm sure you know. Custom needs need custom logic. 18:06:27 Hexstream: imagine a model that basically has several int, string, etc fields.. But also has a slot, that is a list of instances of some sub-object 18:06:34 user has +/- buttons to add/remove them 18:06:56 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.46.243] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:06:58 I don't see a better place for the copying logic than copy-instance... 18:07:30 Hexstream: ideally, something not named "copy-instance" 18:08:00 hefner: Right, I assume foreknowledge of the impossibility of having a universal copying operation. 18:08:09 *maxm-* is thinking that rather having (class view-control qt-object model slot), I'd be better off not remembering the model directly, but coming up with a protocol to get the "sub-object" model, from the root "object being edited" by entire dialog 18:08:16 (If that's what you were alluding to.) 18:08:41 Hexstream: yeah, but you'd already made that clear. 18:08:57 maxm-: sounds right. a path. 18:10:15 see, I came up with that because was trying to explain what was wrong, happens all the time.. fact of explaining it helps come up with solution 18:11:09 Karl_H [~Karl_H@f048014015.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:11:10 maxm-: when you look at it that way, the fact that the sub-object editor is holding a pointer to a real object is just an optimization. 18:11:34 In other parts of the programming world, that's a common pattern, the zipper. 18:12:28 *maxm-* always found this part usually biggest part of crashes / problems in most software.. From accessing already freed pointers, to (in java charting app) reset/apply creating undeletable ghosts 18:12:30 pkhuong: I'm not sure it is. 18:12:59 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 18:14:27 hefner: the goal is to traverse an object while preserving enough information to construct a copy (with sharing), but with a given slot changed to something else, no? 18:14:30 I'm not sure how you'd use zippers to simulate multiple mutators with pointers into different parts of the tree, anyway. 18:15:46 hmm. 18:16:35 aha, I'm gonna replace model in view-control class with a lambda to get a model from *model*, which defaults to #'identity 18:16:40 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 18:16:47 Greetings lispers 18:17:19 you'd have to re-compute the zipper corresponding to each location (pointer) after each update. I *think* there's a nice way to do that incrementally, so that the re-computations are really quick if the update was in some independent section of the object graph. 18:18:24 Fare [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:29 Yay!, priority queue/set data structure done. Go Lisp. 18:19:49 *jacius* high-fives didi 18:19:54 pkhuong: yea I got it, the problem was that I tried reusing same code for editing sub-objects, that I used for editing "flat" plain data objects. Can't hold references to these, if edit/reset/cancel operation deep copies 18:20:01 *didi* high-fivex jacius back 18:20:03 Awesome. 18:20:39 maxm-: well, deep copies with reuse of unmodified data, hopefully. 18:20:51 is cl:string guaranteed to be an instance of cl:built-in-class ? 18:21:35 -!- Karl_H [~Karl_H@f048014015.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #lisp 18:21:57 (format t "~{~{~a:~10t~a~%~}~%~}" *db*) <- In PCL it refers to that little snippet as either cool or scary. How is that scary? 18:22:20 ZombieChicken: It takes a lot of mental parsing to understand. 18:22:21 ZombieChicken: a lot of line noise. 18:22:26 -!- bjonnh [~bjonnh@147.210.71.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:22:42 alright, ty 18:23:44 pkhuong: not really, I tried to keep "model" and "view" completely separate, without model having to do know anything about view.. model can be copied, edited, reset back to original state etc. But having it do "only changed" copying, will need for copy operation to refer to the current view/controller state, to see which objects had changed or not 18:23:49 Matt_S_G [~Matt_S_G@gateway/tor-sasl/mattsg/x-78535695] has joined #lisp 18:24:06 Who is doing the new implementation of CLX? 18:24:24 ThomasH: if two {} embeded are a lot of mental parsing, you should consider reconverting into beach fries selling instead of programming 18:24:33 apparently not: "It is implementation-dependent whether each of these classes is implemented as a built-in class. ..." 18:24:40 mon_key: no 18:25:23 wonder what the rationale was for allowing implementations leeway with that one. efficiency? 18:25:49 pjb: (1) Selling fries on the beach would probably be more enjoyable and (2) I program as a means to an end, I'm not primarily a programmer. 18:25:50 pjb: ThomasH probably means in comparison to the amount of characters in it 18:25:54 mon_key: ease of implementation 18:26:18 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:26:28 madnificent: If something with few characters is hard to parse, yes. 18:26:40 pjb: The scenery on the beach would definitely be better. Mmmm, bikinis. 18:26:46 ThomasH: indeed. 18:26:52 Life's hard, let's go shopping. 18:27:00 i also find the format syntax to be unlispy, which makes it again, a tad harder. perhaps scary if you're thinking in a clean s-experssion syntax. 18:27:02 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-055-203.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:58 Anyway, if someone is going to implement some new API for X, why not do a CL version of XCB? http://xcb.freedesktop.org/ 18:28:13 pjb: you should probably interpret it in the appreciation of a newcomer to lisp, to whom none of ~{ ~A or ~t and ~% are particularly descriptive 18:28:17 madnificent: oh no, not again! 18:28:39 untrusted [~user@stgt-5f719b2c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:47 pkhuong: I think you're right. I can imagine how to do this just fuzzily enough to trust being able to look it up on some haskell blog when I need to. 18:28:58 pjb: i never made this argument before. i can assume i'm not the only one. 18:28:59 of course it's scary, "~:{~a:~10t~a~%~}~%" would be better 18:29:04 ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-116-074.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:06 madnificent: yes. 18:29:36 pjb: for the record, i'm not saying i dislike it :) 18:29:39 madnificent: in any case, nobody forces you to write format control strings. format takes a function there too! 18:29:58 I've actually gotten away from format as much as possible with write-line, write-string, terpri, and friends. I only use format when necessary and only simple control-strings. 18:30:50 You can write (format t (lambda (stream db) (dolist (row *db*) (dolist (col row) (princ col) (princ " ")) (terpri))) *db*) instead. 18:31:27 s/*db*/db/ 18:31:47 it would be, but i wrongly thought that it's for printing alists, it's not 18:32:02 + stream in princ and terpri. 18:32:09 pjb: The fact that you can use a function instead of control strings, doesn't improve control strings ;) 18:32:33 jacius: but it nullify any discussion about them. 18:32:46 jacius: if you're not happy with control strings, pass a control function! 18:32:50 No, doesn't do that either 18:33:34 ThomasH: i wouldn't call that an improvement 18:33:35 That's like the doctor just saying "If it hurts when you bend your knee, stop bending your knee!" 18:33:44 pjb: it simply states that lisp doesn't force #'format on you. it doesn't say anything about format being good or bad, nor scary or unscary (not against a newcomer either). it just states that lisp is rather awesome. 18:33:55 ThomasH: format can be easier to understand 18:35:01 Besides, it's just like anything else. Format control strings are not hard to write and not much harder to read. You just have to learn how to parse them. It's like the parentheses in lisp, you learn to ignore them. 18:35:05 ThomasH: I think I saw someone working on something like that. 18:35:53 Xach: I just googled for it, but came up empty, trying to find the right keywords. 18:36:25 *Xach* checks github 18:36:58 https://github.com/rpav/cl-xcb-xlib 18:37:19 Xach: Sweet! 18:37:23 it uses FFI, not cool 18:38:03 *Neronus* is in favor of writing binding to existing libraries instead of writing parntheses all the way down. It saves time 18:38:46 not necessarily 18:38:47 It doesn't always save time. 18:39:15 Granted. 18:39:25 Wow, that's relatively new. 18:39:33 heh I can actually implement this without changing any of my protocol at all.. all model access is done by (defgeneric get/set-model-value model slot).. Now slot simply becomes a and model will always be the "root object being edited". 18:39:50 its so cool when you can change design with just a few surgical strikes 18:39:53 I always like to imagine (or at least spin) the deprecation of the old xlib as a victory illustrating the superior maintainability of CL code (CLX, at least). Using XCB through the FFI would be a humiliating reversal of that position. 18:39:55 ThomasH: yeah, some people still write stuff in CL 18:40:43 yeah, CLX still supports the ZOID server extension 18:40:44 stassats: Wierd, I thought this was just a memeorial channel to sit around and talk about the glory days. 18:40:50 how's that for maintenance? 18:41:10 I have a very active imagination. 18:41:19 *Weird* 18:42:19 and runs on Genera 18:42:49 albacker [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:55 -!- albacker [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:42:55 albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #lisp 18:44:52 -!- mel0on [1000@h-205-84.a146.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:45:18 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-055-203.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:48:56 hefner: CLX is interesting, but having CLX be able to talk to GL, cairo, and similar, is really nice where you need it 18:49:29 hefner: the idea is that having a compatible API lets you use either as necessary 18:50:18 the thing I'm hacking on this very second is using cl-opengl and some C glue on top of xlib, so I agree in practice, if not in principle. 18:50:24 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:51:08 right .. since portable-clx has a glx module, you could switch off as per your platform 18:53:13 -!- pnq [~nick@AC826F13.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:53:50 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@91-67-41-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:53:50 *hefner* suspects he could rewrite this pixel munging in a shader in less time than it would take to fix the optimization notes from SBCL 18:54:39 pnq [~nick@AC826F13.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 18:55:53 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-234-173.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 18:59:15 -!- antonv [5d7d31e8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.232] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:59:56 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:00:22 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@91-67-41-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:00:28 -!- vervic [~vervic@vie-91-186-146-022.dsl.sil.at] has left #lisp 19:04:02 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-018.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 19:04:34 -!- ngz [~user@198.111.193.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:05:05 -!- ainm [~ainm@206.Red-79-158-106.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:12:23 still, kudos to lisp for letting my quickly discover that my idea is stupid. 19:14:31 one can specialize on FUNCTION right? 19:16:19 maxm-: yes. 19:17:04 klltkr [~klltkr@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:18:00 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:20:14 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:21:07 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 19:21:25 -!- untrusted [~user@stgt-5f719b2c.pool.mediaWays.net] has left #lisp 19:22:37 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp 19:23:13 there, cl-cairo2 <-> cl-xcb-xlib bridge committed :p 19:23:40 maxm-: just check the CLHS: System Class FUNCTION it's a class, so you can. 19:25:45 hefner: many here will let you know that before you even start anything 19:27:30 I won't, though. 19:27:44 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-169-157.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:29:18 barryfm [~barryfm@fl-67-232-182-18.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:19 First we take Manhattan, then we take Berlin! 19:32:13 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:34:10 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:38:37 jasond [~jason@50.56.230.33] has joined #lisp 19:38:51 -!- pnq [~nick@AC826F13.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:41:50 pnq [~nick@AC826F13.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 19:44:14 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-69.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 19:45:30 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 19:48:47 francogrex [~user@109.130.110.207] has joined #lisp 19:49:36 -!- dnolen [aa95640a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.170.149.100.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:50:47 Hi, I have a series of dates (in universal time), do you think there would be an easy way to make an "ascii" plot of those points ? 19:50:54 DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-11-52.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:04 francogrex: why ascii? gnuplot works nicely. 19:52:26 pjb: is there an easy interface for it in lisp , I know it interfaces with maxima 19:53:25 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:53:31 didi [~user@187.122.1.221] has joined #lisp 19:54:01 *maxm-* found himself replacing :model (get-subobj root) :slot 'whatever) with :slot (lambda (model) (values (get-subobj model) 'whatever)) and can't but feel there is some even fancier way of doing it 19:54:42 coz the lambdas get pretty nested with laying out gui controls for sub-sub-objects of sub-objects of model 19:54:47 osa1 [~sinan@31.140.48.212] has joined #lisp 19:55:12 some kind of curry-slot-path or something.. kind of echoes the previous places to lambda discussion 19:55:26 Can CFFI only handle situations where functions return a pointer to a structure and not the structure itself? 19:55:59 so far only branching is its either a direct slot value (another instance) so key being slot, or a sequence of sub-objects, key being index into sequence and slot 19:58:09 -!- snearch [~snearch@g225079040.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 19:59:32 klltkr: I'm not sure, but I assume so, because that's a pretty common situation 20:00:14 what does it mean to return a structure? a structure that fits into a word? 20:00:49 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:00:56 Some C compilers can even return structures that don't fit into a word. 20:01:38 klltkr: see the cffi-libffi system in the CFFI libffi branch 20:01:58 pjb: by using two words? 20:02:02 It will handle the case of structures called and/or returned by value. 20:02:06 stassats: or more. 20:02:29 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 20:02:38 -!- jollyG [~JollyG@KennPAT.uncc.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:02:53 s0ber_ [~s0ber@114-36-229-36.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:05 LiamH: Thanks, I'll take a look. 20:04:17 klltkr: It's not yet in the released version of CFFI, but I'm hoping that happens soon. There are still a few minor issues to resolve. 20:04:25 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-228-104.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:04:43 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 20:06:36 koisoke [xef4@epilogue.org] has joined #lisp 20:09:13 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl22-71-228.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 20:16:40 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 20:19:28 add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-11-21.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 20:21:38 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@100.Red-88-11-23.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:21:39 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5081B773.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:18 would it be feasible / practical to make a graphing utility in only lisp? 20:24:27 yes 20:25:00 like GNU plot I mean.. 20:25:11 yes 20:25:20 yes, but please don't 20:25:27 It would probably need to start from vecto and co. 20:25:45 you could look at the source code to Scigraph (in the McCLIM source tree). On a good day, you could even run it 20:26:38 for now I use R plot (and rcl), but I'll look at scigraph 20:26:41 -!- pnq [~nick@AC826F13.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:28:08 pnq [~nick@AC826F13.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 20:28:35 /join #emacs 20:28:36 20:28:39 woops sorry 20:29:17 well well madnificent you're expose, you're defecting to elisp! 20:29:53 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:30:02 francogrex: actually, i wanted to have a different font for coding in a real lisp! 20:30:17 (but don't tell them that (yet)) 20:30:26 madnificent: No need to bash a friend. ;^) 20:30:57 francogrex: Sikander has been looking at that problem. Several years ago I tried scigraph and I couldn't get it to work. 20:31:28 didi: <3 emacs 20:31:45 *didi* eyes madnificent suspiciously 20:31:54 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:33:14 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5081B773.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:33:22 It's really not that hard to start gnuplot from a lisp process and feed it commands. 20:34:24 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5081B773.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:44 I think it's not a straightforward thing to have a maths/stats graphing. Since gnu and R and other "add-ons" exist, one should make use of them... ThomasH I use R from the RCL package it works good as well 20:36:14 antonv [5d7d31e8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.232] has joined #lisp 20:37:46 -!- barryfm [~barryfm@fl-67-232-182-18.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has left #lisp 20:40:12 -!- schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:43:26 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@037096087232.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:45:03 rme [~rme@50.43.136.254] has joined #lisp 20:47:00 Kryztof: I actaully am working on a project where we will need to draw graphs. The end-goal is a native Mac OS X application, so CLIM is right out, but is Scigraph something I should look at porting? 20:47:03 ainm [~ainm@206.Red-79-158-106.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:24 Making LANPACK is a difficult thing considering the fact that it was written for supercomputers. It is a library better imported. 20:48:36 R is simmular. 20:48:59 -!- osa1 [~sinan@31.140.48.212] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20:49:50 If you take it on you REALLY need to know what you are doing. 20:51:41 rme: I don't know, I've never really run it successfully 20:52:13 there's a video by Rainer Joswig somewhere out there which shows it running under MCL, I think 20:52:50 given a free choice, I would use R for graphing, but it shares the lisp nature of wanting to be in charge of events 20:53:01 dunno if you'll be able to make that work for you 20:53:44 on the third hand, maybe your graphs are simple enough that you can just write them 20:54:24 ; (TOP-LEVEL-FORM 3) 20:54:25 so annoying 20:56:10 The graphing options in Python, as a comparison, seem to be as varied as in Lisp, based on the Python wiki. 20:56:12 OK. I couldn't quite tell whether you were endorsing Scigraph. I had never heard of it before. 20:56:37 schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 20:57:29 somewhat sure this may not work, but is it possible to run lisp code using a (ba)sh-style hashbang? (#!) 20:57:50 ZombieChicken: yes. 20:57:56 parabolize [~gyro@c-75-70-14-105.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:09 ZombieChicken: I write all my scripts in clisp. 20:58:27 -!- ko1 [~k11@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Quit: Wait, IRC is for drug boats? I've been using it all wrong.] 20:58:50 koo1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 21:01:44 would it be better to ask what clisp can't do than to ask what it can do? 21:01:53 Or is that implementation specific? 21:01:55 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:02:42 -!- koo1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 21:03:39 ZombieChicken: Just to clarify, clisp is a specific implementation, CL is common lisp. 21:03:49 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:03:56 alright, ty 21:03:59 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:04:08 clisp is the GNU implementation, right? 21:04:19 sirdancealot2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 21:04:40 isnt there is cl-gd or something? /me used it to do simple graphs before 21:05:13 http://www.cliki.net/CL-GD 21:05:30 ZombieChicken: No, it is under the GNU license, but it is not a GNU project as far as I can tell. 21:05:56 ty 21:07:08 gcl is the GNU CL project 21:07:47 I personally prefer ecl over it, which was also derived from kyoto cl 21:08:13 *maxm-* has a wikidly sick smoothing thing, ported from some perl, that for a polyline, makes a polyline with 3x as many points, suitable for drawing with paint-cubic-path.. Makes graphs look neat, ie 5 point graph will look as a sinusoidal wave rather then like spines of a saw 21:08:22 GCL is not useful for much besides old versions of maxima 21:08:36 Fade: Why is that? 21:08:47 it's not particularly conforming to the spec 21:08:49 -!- jakky [~jokk@razor.sharp.penisbird.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:09:00 clisp too is an "official" GNU project 21:09:21 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5081B773.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:09:21 whatever that means, besides appearing on http://directory.fsf.org/wiki/GNU 21:09:30 tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-17-137.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:31 pspace [~andrew@csu-137-148-237-177.csuohio.edu] has joined #lisp 21:09:35 fe[nl]ix: Ok, that was never clear to me. 21:09:41 fe[nl]ix: Normally FSF copyright agreements. 21:09:59 But not obligatory. 21:10:13 jakky [~jokk@2001:470:33:2::1ce] has joined #lisp 21:15:33 -!- vpit3833 [~user@mail.protocomtech.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:15:34 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.164.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:17:06 Random question: Is there a way to embed, say, C into CL in a manner similar to the asm() in (GC)C? I'm just interested in the possibility, not the pros and cons of such a thing 21:17:13 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:17:23 ZombieChicken: In ECL it is 21:18:09 Can you give me a rough idea on how that is handled? 21:18:09 and in some implementations you can also embed assembly code, like in SBCL 21:18:19 ZombieChicken: no, it's easier to embed assembly code 21:18:34 C is to complex 21:18:37 too 21:18:50 Interesting. Thanks 21:19:13 ZombieChicken: ECL has a lisp to C compiler. It will insert the C code you provide verbatim 21:19:19 ZombieChicken: http://ecls.sourceforge.net/new-manual/ch18.html 21:19:51 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:19:53 ZombieChicken: or you could write a C library and call it with CFFI .. more portable and less ugly 21:20:36 or you can write everything in CL 21:20:56 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 21:20:59 if you want to rewrite everything or don't want access to everything 21:21:11 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-11-21.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 21:22:08 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:22:25 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:24:02 Apparently in this channel you will hear all about the pros and cons of something, even if you say you're not interested. :) 21:24:07 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:24:21 Or, at least, you will hear about all the cons. 21:24:23 heh true 21:24:52 jacius: this lisp, we love conses? ;) 21:27:29 Indeed, expressing cons is right in the language! I wonder if we would have a more positive attitude if we wrote (pros a b) instead of (cons a b) :P 21:27:52 we are pros 21:28:08 you could implement the pros :) 21:28:39 vpit3833 [~user@mail.protocomtechnology.com] has joined #lisp 21:28:41 Yeah, and instead of #'CAR I'll call it #'PROTIP 21:28:48 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl6-9-43.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 21:29:20 holycow [~holycow@host-64-151-208-2.bchsia.in2net.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:28 #'prosrplacall 21:29:44 the amount of CL syntax used in this channel makes it almost as hard to read at times as some people's usage of regex and shell scripting in other chats 21:30:34 wait till you see some real CL code 21:30:54 ZombieChicken: there's hardly any 21:31:00 ZombieChicken: it may be hard to read at first, but over time I find regexp and perl harder to read than CL 21:31:29 stassats: I've glanced through stumpwm. I had a hard time reading it 21:32:16 I'll say it again, I'm not sure that stumpwm is the best place to start reading CL code. 21:33:12 ZombieChicken: Look at the Wikipedia page on common lisp, it has some decent examples. 21:33:47 that article is indeed quite nice as an overview of the language 21:33:47 *ThomasH* thinks Wikipedia is underrated. 21:33:58 all it lacks are more inline references 21:34:03 hydo [~hydo@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:09 I deleted stumpwm last night and only mentioned it since he specified 'real CL code' 21:34:10 -!- hydo is now known as clintm 21:39:50 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@31.24.92.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:41:07 -!- holycow [~holycow@host-64-151-208-2.bchsia.in2net.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:41:35 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl22-71-228.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 21:41:35 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-18-50.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 21:41:46 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-18-50.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:21 Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.103.227] has joined #lisp 21:42:37 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 21:42:52 -!- schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:43:23 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-192-240.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:43:55 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.104.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:46:38 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.177] has joined #lisp 21:47:25 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl22-71-228.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 21:47:27 -!- antonv [5d7d31e8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.232] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:47:38 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.110.207] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:47:47 m7w [~chatzilla@31.24.92.4] has joined #lisp 21:48:30 DataLinkDroid [~David@1.155.58.239] has joined #lisp 21:49:47 -!- milanj [~milanj_@212-200-192-196.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:50:14 -!- jakky [~jokk@2001:470:33:2::1ce] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:50:21 davlaps [~davlaps@107-0-204-137-ip-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:54 -!- Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.103.227] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:52:11 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 21:52:19 jakky [~jokk@2001:470:33:2::1ce] has joined #lisp 21:52:58 daniel__2 [~daniel@p5B3260B4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:15 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 21:55:19 -!- daniel__1 [~daniel@p5082AC47.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:03:40 -!- Bugson [~Bugson@87-204-6-135.ip.netia.com.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:05:07 Bugson [~Bugson@87-204-6-135.ip.netia.com.pl] has joined #lisp 22:05:33 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:11:42 -!- tiglog [~topeak@117.79.232.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:13:30 Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.103.227] has joined #lisp 22:22:51 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:23:47 -!- optikalmouse [~user@76.9.199.178] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:24:08 how can i make a symbol from something like "get-" + some-slot-name ? 22:24:54 (intern (format nil "GET-~A" some-slot-name)) 22:25:10 or concatenate, if you want longer syntax for possibly better performance (?0 22:25:11 oGMo: thank you 22:26:03 (alexandria:format-symbol *package* '#:get-~A 'slot) 22:26:14 Use (format nil "~a-a" (string 'get) some-slot-name) if you want it to work with any case readtable, or modern low case lisp 22:26:17 well alexandria just has symbolicate no? 22:27:48 yea alexandira:symbolicate will do the right thing too, just pass it 'get not "get" 22:28:18 my solution is way better 22:30:22 Froward [~uh-oh@206.231.99.110] has joined #lisp 22:31:44 maxm- wouldn't (format nil "~a-a" 'get some-slot-name) do the same? 22:32:02 -!- kilon [~kilon@ppp-94-64-189-106.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:33:16 kennyd: no, as ~a means human readable, and it inverts the symbol according to (readtable-case *readtable*) 22:33:22 what would be the command within SBCL to display the contents (in human-readable form) of a function? 22:34:14 (disassemble #'function) *runs* 22:34:33 with inverted readtable (intern (format "~a" 'let)) == |let| not CL:LET 22:34:35 ZombieChicken: M-. on a function in slime will take you to the definition 22:34:50 maxm- how about ~s instead of ~a ? 22:34:55 oGMo: I'm not using slim[ev] 22:35:20 ZombieChicken: see what you're missing! ;) 22:35:32 cafesofie [~user@ool-18e4c9a0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:35:45 why would you need slime to call disassemble function 22:35:50 hmm for some reason I can't reproduce damn thing now 22:35:53 nevermind 22:36:32 jpop [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 22:36:40 actually yes ~A will do the right thing, I think it was princ that did not 22:37:04 hello. what was the name of that library that can download html or images from a web page 22:37:17 drakma? 22:37:18 oGMo: I'm messing around within SBCL atm trying things out. Is there a way to do what I'm wanting to do that returns the CL instead of asm-esque output? 22:38:17 ZombieChicken: you can find the source of the definition i believe (this is what slime does), but sbcl compiles what you give it, afaik it does not keep around the original form 22:38:28 ok, thanks 22:39:50 err I take that back, I was in the wrong (deafult) readtable... LTR> (eq 'cl:let (intern (format nil "~a" 'let))) => nil 22:39:53 with inverted one 22:40:06 so ~a is in fact wrong just as I remembered 22:40:33 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gone] 22:40:43 maxm-: READ it. 22:41:29 pkhuong: it seems using (string 'symbol) rather then ~a or princ works fine, as it uses symbol-name 22:41:51 pkhuong: but yes, read will work also 22:42:30 -!- davlaps [~davlaps@107-0-204-137-ip-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:43:46 zombie swank-backend:find-source-location could be useful if you want to roll your own function 22:52:08 -!- pnq [~nick@AC826F13.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:55:52 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-232.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:57:39 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-168-199.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:58:05 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:00:38 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:53 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-116-074.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:03:37 -!- Patzy [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:05:21 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:05:46 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:10:15 maxm-: ~A respects *print-case*. 23:10:44 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 23:10:51 Patzy [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:11 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:11:31 (let ((*print-case* :downcase)) (format nil "~A" 'hello)) => "hello" 23:11:40 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:51 So indeed, you have to use string or symbol-name. 23:14:18 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:16:28 -!- Matt_S_G [~Matt_S_G@gateway/tor-sasl/mattsg/x-78535695] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:18:47 -!- jpop [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Quit: #yhiselamu | www.yhiselamu.ee] 23:20:21 pjb: even funnier, let *print-case* :upcase, but readtable-case = :invert: == "hello" too 23:20:37 which is actually good 23:20:58 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 23:21:10 it will take a major implementation like SBCL to switch to lower or mixed case, for most libraries to be cleaned up in that regardd 23:23:22 schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 23:23:59 It seems to me that there are a lot of more important things to worry about. 23:25:58 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-018.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:27:55 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 23:29:53 Is there some kind of `for-each'? By that I mean a `mapcar' that doesn't accumulate. 23:30:11 That would be mapc. 23:30:13 didi: mapc or (map nil ...) 23:30:21 Ah! Nice. 23:30:22 or dolist 23:30:30 dolist is a bit different, though 23:30:55 There are a lot, actually. Thank you. 23:32:14 SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@cpc25-aztw23-2-0-cust226.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:32:56 -!- SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@cpc25-aztw23-2-0-cust226.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:33:47 so many options 23:34:34 so little time 23:36:22 slyrus [~chatzilla@dsl081-060-042.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:16 senj [~senj@S01060026f323bcdf.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:29 -!- senj [~senj@S01060026f323bcdf.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:38:48 Heh. Was just reading about an adaptation of dolist as a handy macro in a Scheme for generators. 23:39:33 *Xach* works on quickproject docs 23:39:50 Go Xach! 23:40:18 The new version will support a directory of template files to rewrite into your new project. 23:40:58 *stassats* is annoyed by the fact that ERC highlights ever "new" 23:41:20 i can't believe high annoying that would be for new 23:41:59 new? 23:42:17 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:42:20 Xach: there's a #lisp visitor with a nick "new" 23:42:42 stassats: why does erc highlight it? 23:43:11 ERC makes all words which is a present participant bold 23:43:24 hightlight-nicknames, more precisely. 23:43:37 Well, at least here. 23:43:49 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-69.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:47:00 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-149-232.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:47:01 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:47:48 ahh i see 23:48:06 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:48:43 that is new information to me. that would seem like pokes in the eye to me. 23:49:50 it usually quite useful when the name is actually meant 23:50:00 it's 23:50:15 oh, i guess i will not take such a dim view on that feature then. 23:50:17 phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:50:17 -!- phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Changing host] 23:50:17 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 23:51:28 Xach: you're shifty 23:52:26 It is a break from all the CL intensity. 23:55:28 -!- schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:55:45 schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 23:57:07 -!- achiu [~arthurchi@216.174.109.254] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 23:57:31 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-149-232.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: qicr for android: faster and better]