00:00:16 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 00:02:59 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.77] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:03:01 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.159.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:03:51 tensorpudding__ [~michael@99.148.195.24] has joined #lisp 00:07:50 rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 00:08:01 -!- tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.56.174.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:10:11 -!- Ralith [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:11:25 -!- saschakb__ [~saschakb@p4FEA0C44.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:12:09 urandom__ [~user@p548A2CA0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:37 arthurmaciel: i haven't fully read it, but the contents looked really interesting to me. it shouldn't be the first book you read on lisp though. 00:14:40 -!- antonv [5d7d31e8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.232] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:16:20 -!- achiu [~arthurchi@216.174.109.254] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 00:16:24 Cosman246: did you get your stuff straightened out? 00:16:29 MrBusiness [~MrBusines@184.99.7.19] has joined #lisp 00:16:41 -!- tdubellz is now known as tdubell 00:17:02 -!- tdubell is now known as tdubellz 00:21:02 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:21:44 -!- albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:23:15 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:23:38 -!- dnolen [~user@p72-0-226-118-static.acedsl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:27:03 *Farzad* just made his first hack into mop 00:27:31 dnolen [~user@p72-0-226-118-static.acedsl.com] has joined #lisp 00:27:39 Farzad: Cool :) 00:27:55 -!- tessier [~treed@216.105.40.125] has quit [Changing host] 00:27:55 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #lisp 00:28:16 sellout: :D thanks! 00:29:26 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:31:02 -!- S11001001 [~sirian@fsf/member/S11001001] has left #lisp 00:32:21 Farzad: What are you doing with it? 00:32:36 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.247.25] has joined #lisp 00:32:37 madnificent: is Practical Common Lisp enough to read it? I know Scheme and have read The * Schemer series. 00:33:26 arthurmaciel: PCL is a great intro-to-CL book. 00:33:35 arthurmaciel: i've briefly skimmed through it, and i't say 'yes'. someone else should give their opinion on let over lambda though. 00:33:47 sellout: trying to setup a meta class that allows special kinds of slots, like (slot-a :initform nil :html-slot t) 00:34:34 arthurmaciel: There are sample chapters available at http://letoverlambda.com/ , maybe you can use those to judge whether you'll be able to grok the whole thing 00:34:37 Farzad: that's a handy skill. what are you using it for exactly? 00:34:49 jacius: yes 00:35:04 I know this is a general question, but do you use Lisp for professional programming? 00:35:13 (opposed to 'academic' programming) 00:35:25 Can I get arg's size in bytes somehow? 00:36:07 arthurmaciel: professional 00:36:32 madnificent: i wanna distinguish slots so that i can for example define a single method like render-markup that reads the html-slots from the instance and renders them like 00:36:54 NeedMoreDesu: nothing built-in. it's a tricky question to answer. 00:37:58 -!- dnolen [~user@p72-0-226-118-static.acedsl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:38:00 Farzad: i'm interested in mostly anything you do with web stuff. you might want to look at lisp-on-lines in that respect 00:38:42 madnificent: ok i'll check it now 00:38:57 (note: i don't use LoL) 00:39:35 dnolen [~user@p72-0-226-118-static.acedsl.com] has joined #lisp 00:39:40 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.16] has joined #lisp 00:39:49 regardless, LoL has various ways of displaying instances, two of them are html-like iirc 00:40:11 Hm. Funny. It isn't nice I can't know even the value of some atoms, not including functions or cons. 00:40:32 But ok, thanks for answer. 00:40:46 Farzad: if you're generating regular xml, you might be interested in the soon-to-be-released (i guess) sexml library 00:41:04 NeedMoreDesu: here's a simple answer: 1 word, a pointer. 00:42:07 madnificent: 2 years old? really? are u sure it works?! :D 00:42:15 LoL, you mean? 00:42:29 lisp-on-lines 00:42:51 https://github.com/drewc/lisp-on-lines age>=2 years! 00:42:52 well, i don't know if it'll work, but 2 years old is certainly not why i'd doubt it. 00:43:17 Farzad: all code i wrote two years ago is just as functional now as it was back then :) 00:43:47 Farzad: age is different in lisp than in most other languages 00:44:06 pkhuong: that's the reason? 00:44:08 -!- dnolen [~user@p72-0-226-118-static.acedsl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:44:15 -!- sanderlisp [~user@D97A9544.cm-3-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:44:43 NeedMoreDesu: No, "1 word" is the size. 00:44:53 madnificent: i'll try it, have u used it urself? any running demo? 00:45:03 Farzad: you probably want the version in quicklisp though 00:45:04 -!- workflow [~workflow@178-83-8-30.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:45:19 -!- impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442544.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:45:23 madnificent: could you please detail more what do you do with lisp? 00:45:35 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:45:55 dnolen [~user@p72-0-226-118-static.acedsl.com] has joined #lisp 00:46:00 *Farzad* will brb 00:46:19 Farzad: i've talked to drewc about it. i used to be interested in it. however somehow i don't find it easy to communicate with him. i tried it out when trying to grasp contextl, but found it's macro layer on top of contextl confusing. 00:46:50 KDr2 [~kdr2@123.112.67.43] has joined #lisp 00:46:53 arthurmaciel: we *code* in it :) 00:47:09 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:47:29 impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442544.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:50:19 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:51:41 :) 00:53:58 -!- dnolen [~user@p72-0-226-118-static.acedsl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:54:00 arthurmaciel: why are you wondering? 00:57:18 achiu [~achiu@ip68-96-95-213.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:44 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 01:04:02 mensch [~mensch@c-67-189-240-148.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:09 pcavs [~Adium@c-67-186-132-233.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:47 hefner [~hefner@c-69-255-57-56.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:35 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.114.163.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:08:54 daem0n [~yaargh@unaffiliated/mryaargh] has joined #lisp 01:09:48 excuse me for asking a very basic question but: how are variables declared and assigned in lisp? 01:10:01 daem0n: global variables, or local ones? 01:10:11 lets say global for now 01:10:35 (defparameter *foobar* 100) (setf *foobar* "shabang") 01:10:44 in which *foobar* is the variable 01:11:09 -!- vervic [~vervic@vie-91-186-151-046.dsl.sil.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:11:15 setf is a function to assign variables? 01:11:30 local: (let ((foobar 100) (foobang 10)) (setf foobar "shabang") (setf foobang 1000)) 01:11:45 sorry, that was for daem0n 01:11:52 ok gotcha thanks 01:12:18 setf assigns to places: (setf (car some-cons) 100) works too 01:12:31 in which some-cons is a variable 01:12:45 right 01:12:50 appreciated 01:13:05 you're welcome. you probably want to learn the language more constructively than this though. 01:13:47 was gonna learn as I go through the euler problems 01:14:03 any book recommendations ? 01:14:16 i advise a book, lisp has many concepts which don't have a simple counterpart in (most) other languages 01:14:26 what languages do you know so far? 01:14:38 python 01:15:08 yea lisp is different lol 01:15:14 ahh, practical common lisp will likely work then. it's free online 01:15:18 I need to change how I think 01:15:18 but you can buy it too 01:15:35 ideal :) 01:16:31 xrt [~jeberle@108-233-8-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:17:37 How setf work? It have predefined set of known functions? I've just tried (defun myfunc(arg)(car arg)), and (setf (myfunc x) 1) 01:18:10 NeedMoreDesu: add spaces to the correct places in your defun, that's horrible! 01:18:35 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:00 NeedMoreDesu: you need to (defun (setf myfunc) (new value x)), or a setf expansion (more or less a macro). 01:19:02 NeedMoreDesu: setf is a macro that transforms (setf (foo x) y) into something like ((setf foo) y x) 01:19:19 it's "just" syntax. 01:19:25 (defun (setf myfunc) (value arg) (setf (car arg) value)) (let ((var (cons 1 2))) (setf (myfunc var) 100) var) 01:19:37 <3 sugar 01:20:15 of course, like generics, it's a syntactic trick that makes code generation easier. 01:22:08 cool thing is that things can build on top of it. (decf (car (gethash (some-fancy-func x) (oter-fancy-func y))) 15) could work 01:24:41 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:24:52 -!- Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.106.239] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:25:51 Wow. Thank's, i did'nt knew it. Does that mean that "(set myfunc)" is a symbol, that have a symbol-function? 01:26:28 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-24-163-252.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:59 *setf 01:27:37 Can I call it somehow, without setf macro? 01:27:39 no 01:27:59 NeedMoreDesu: setf is a symbol, myfunc is a symbol. http://l1sp.org/cl/5.1 01:28:00 no, it's not a symbol, you can call it if it's a function, and not a macro. 01:28:02 '(setf foo) can be a function definition, though. 01:28:12 -!- paul0` [~user@177.132.101.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:28:41 NeedMoreDesu: meaning, you can use FDEFINITION to get/set the function it's associated with, but not SYMBOL-FUNCTION. 01:29:13 because (setf myfunc) isn't a symbol. 01:30:29 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:30:33 momo-reina [~user@aa20111001946f573a95.userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:33:11 -!- xrt [~jeberle@108-233-8-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 01:38:29 pnathan1 [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 01:39:38 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:44:49 *hefner* finds (setf ..) functions very strange, has never had a clear mental model of how they fit into the language. 01:50:49 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 01:51:37 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-175-107.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:51:45 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 01:52:33 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-123-195.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:39 -!- pnathan1 [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:03:27 -!- CrazyEddy [~phosphite@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:05:40 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-107-102.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:09:09 pnathan [~Adium@lb175203.dialup.fsr.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:32 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 02:09:35 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has joined #lisp 02:09:41 hefner: I guess it has to do with what counts as a function designators 02:09:51 -s 02:10:52 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:11:08 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8161BE.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:11:14 -!- Kron [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:13:59 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0D33.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:14:10 hefner: yeah, a 'function name' includes a symbol or a list (setf ), and an 'extended function designator' can be named with a 'function name', but not a regular 'function designator' as I read it 02:15:19 hmm, they're more consistent than I remembered. 02:15:35 hefner: we could even add kinds of function names. 02:17:41 is this correct styling? http://pastebin.com/XGT866Cw 02:18:01 no, correct style is to use paste.lisp.org 02:18:11 I tend to put each 'let' variable on its own line 02:18:15 har 02:19:00 alrighty 02:19:19 daem0n: the indentation is correct, but as Phoodus said, it's usually better to keep each variable on its own line. It's easier to see what belongs to what then. 02:19:41 one stylistic thing I haven't got a good answer for is where to put comments for the first 'let' variable 02:19:47 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A2CA0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:19:58 Phoodus: What do you mean? 02:20:02 if they're longer than just something that can be tossed to the right 02:20:10 Typically a space is placed between the function name and arglist as well 02:20:13 (let (;; Here I will describe foo ... 02:20:19 (foo ...) 02:20:43 that's always annoying to me, having that empty open paren with just comments after it 02:20:44 Vivitron: noted 02:20:49 Phoodus: well, why not? If I saw that in source I'd see that as perfectly fine 02:21:38 purely due to the dangling-looking open paren. I know it's the best place for them 02:22:27 I can't think of any other condition in which I use an open paren as the last token of a line 02:22:48 Phoodus: another solution is to have a longer, more descriptive variable name so you don't need the comment in the first place. 02:23:27 (let ((cached-value-of-prior-foo-to-avoid-calling-the-accessor-yet-again ;) 02:23:41 Phoodus: yeah, something like that 02:23:52 or just cached-prior-foo 02:23:54 but comments typically hold 'why', not 'what' 02:24:10 and that's usually not baggage to drag around with the name 02:24:38 Or why not break it out into a function, and use a docstring to describe what's happening? That's what I usually do. 02:25:44 if it's a one-time thing, and the "why am I calling this" is tied to that one particular usage, and then you start using the function generally, the comment quickly goes out of date 02:25:56 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 02:25:56 as opposed to having the 'why' correctly with the usage 02:26:09 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has joined #lisp 02:26:23 Phoodus: I think you're underestimating the intelligence of the reader ;-) 02:26:26 wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-68-173-17-122.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:26:44 :)Generally *I* am the reader, trying to figure out why the heck I did something 02:26:58 usually in terms of some bug fix or optimization 02:27:08 the usage is the correct place to put 'why' documentation 02:29:02 which common lisp implementations have tail-call optimisation? 02:29:14 I was just looking through my own code. It seems I put the comment above the LET form 02:29:18 http://code.google.com/p/cl-gdata/source/browse/src/atom.lisp#181 02:29:51 loke: looks like you're describing both vars with a single comment, which would seem appropriate there 02:30:29 leo2007: sbcl "usually" does it, but sometimes when there's certain types of nesting it doesn't 02:30:34 -!- hydo [~hydo@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: hydo] 02:30:39 always verify 02:30:54 SBCL does it at certain optimisation levels 02:31:08 leo2007: the answer is to never assume it does. 02:31:20 the disassembler is your friend 02:31:25 ok 02:31:28 Rewrite any recursive algorithms with LOOP if you expect it to go to any significant depth 02:31:41 LOOP is usually more readable anyway 02:31:46 *Phoodus* heavily uses tail calls for program flow, not recursion 02:31:53 continuation passing style 02:32:33 Phoodus: I find a main loop and returning closures to be much more clear 02:33:03 that's pretty slow though 02:33:25 hydo [~hydo@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:25 Phoodus: Is it? It's essentailly what the tail-calls gets expanded into 02:33:48 call, allocate new closure, return, invoke closure 02:33:57 vs chain together closures, jmp jmp jmp jmp 02:34:23 (for reused paths of course) 02:34:33 Fair enough. 02:34:55 I still never assume that I can tail-call forever 02:35:12 we rely on it, so testing & disassembly is required 02:36:02 It would be nice if CL had included a tail call mechanism. 02:36:04 and even at "full" optimization levels, strange things can keep calls from being tailed 02:36:16 that do not seem to require losing the TCO 02:36:36 Then you could say (tail-call foo a b c) instead of (foo a b c) 02:36:38 Zhivago: yep 02:36:49 And the compiler could complain if it couldn't comply. 02:36:51 and it could error out if the compiler could for some reason not do so 02:37:02 sure. That'd be a couple hours to hack in SBCL. 02:37:34 That's a pretty neat idea 02:37:58 Phoodus: I don't know CPS yet. which language popularises this style? 02:38:00 it comes up from time to time. I think tcr even wrote a strawman spec once. 02:38:02 You'd need a tail-funcall and a tail-apply though 02:38:04 leo2007: node.js 02:38:31 leo2007: the gist is just "Hey function, here's your parameters, and here's what to call when you're done" 02:38:37 pkhuong: thanks. 02:39:32 at least for an 80% solution, anyway. Warning when we have to emit actual calls (to local or global/unknown functions) isn't too hard. 02:39:44 Phoodus: yes, I've seen it just never used it. 02:39:45 Doing the same to calls that are compiled away is much harder. 02:41:20 pkhuong: Could I use the following to essentially "force" tailcalls in an otherwise debuggable function? (locally (declare (optimize 3)) (tailcall-here ...)) 02:41:33 pkhuong: or does the entire function need to be compiled with optimisation? 02:42:09 Kron [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has joined #lisp 02:42:44 loke: you can't, really. high debuggability introduces extra code that means calls aren't in tail position anymore 02:42:49 loke: there's already a sb-c::merge-tail-calls, but that's just an enabler, not an enforcer 02:43:07 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:43:44 Phoodus: that's always enabled. 02:44:25 OK, I'm geading out on the trails now 02:44:29 See you later all 02:44:44 if I set (speed 0) (safety 3) (debug 3), I also need to turn up merge-tail-calls or else nothing gets tail-called 02:44:55 (though that testing was done a few versions ago) 02:45:22 scombinator [~user@203.171.40.170] has joined #lisp 02:45:35 Being able to enforce a warning would probably be a million times better than nothing 02:45:49 Is thread enabled in sbcl darwin? 02:46:01 -!- NeedMoreDesu [~user@109.122.18.8] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:46:04 leo2007: You have to compile your own SBCL 02:46:04 at least one is :) 02:46:10 Phoodus: look in the source. Its inferred value is 3, regardless of safety, speed or debug. 02:46:14 I've used it with threads for a long time and it works fine for what I do 02:46:26 leo2007: when built with --fancy, they are. 02:46:57 pkhuong: okay, like I said it might have been a few versions ago, but I was dealing with that exact issue and that flag was pointed to me which did fix the otherwise lack of TCO 02:48:10 thanks. 02:49:59 insert-debug-catch to 0 would help, though. 02:51:57 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483CC74.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:17 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483AD6F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:53:58 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-25-16.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:58:24 Is phenylaline the one that gives people cancer? 03:00:20 ker2x_ [~chatzilla@AToulouse-652-1-164-26.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 03:00:33 friendly greetings \o/ 03:01:02 scombinator: No, moreover, it's necessary for most people to live. 03:03:00 can't sleep tonight. So i tought i could try lisp again. Counting parenthesis could help me to sleep :) 03:03:03 If I got your right and it's mistyped phenylalanine, not a trivial name or something else I don't know about. 03:03:51 ker2x_: Don't forget to turn off matching parenthesis highlight in your editor. :) 03:04:06 otherwise it's cheating? 03:04:35 I guess so. 03:05:03 i installed allegro lisp on windows. the editor look bad but have this feature enabled by default ^^ 03:05:07 am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.101] has joined #lisp 03:05:22 pfft. I use expression highlighting 03:05:46 Mmmm... 03:06:03 Do Android dream of electric parenthesis ? 03:06:57 ewww 03:07:33 -!- hydo [~hydo@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: hydo] 03:08:06 electric insertion always pisses me off. *Especially* insertion of "" pairs. I'm always editing - not writing! I usually have the other " somewhere else 03:09:00 Even when you are wrinting it's still annoying in most cases. 03:09:06 *hefner* likes it, but finds paredit gets confused too often 03:09:59 I don't like paredit. 03:10:11 *ker2x_* is completly confused. 03:10:12 I found myself deleting its autoinserted parens too much 03:10:16 electric insertion ? what is it ? 03:10:27 When you insert '(' you get a ')' 03:10:37 ho ... 03:12:24 jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-25-16.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:54 i was just refering to the book title "Do Android Dream of Electric Sheep ?" from K.Dick. Because i'm planning to count parenthesis instead of sheep to fall asleep. So ... err... well... nvm :) 03:13:03 I got that 03:13:05 *ker2x_* duck and cover 03:14:38 -!- jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:15:34 what do you think of allegro lisp to play with lisp on windows ? 03:16:38 i'm planning to make fractals. some kind of gfx capabilities is really a bonus to me. 03:17:03 *dmbaturin* would split generating and rendering parts 03:17:19 and multithreading too :D 03:18:10 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-68-173-17-122.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 03:18:43 Doesn't CCL support windows? 03:20:11 hydo [~hydo@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:17 to some extent, yes 03:20:31 http://trac.clozure.com/ccl ? 03:26:23 sure 03:29:42 ker2x_: allegro works pretty well on Windows 03:30:37 their IDE is actually more polished on Windows 03:31:18 i'll keep ccl for later. For now some kind of "all in one" package look good. And since nobody screamed "no" "sux" "avoid" "don't", etc ... it will be good enough for me :) 03:31:24 felideon: thx :) 03:33:11 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-25-16.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:34:43 -!- parabolize [~gyro@c-75-70-14-105.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:35:47 parabolize [~gyro@c-75-70-14-105.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:54 -!- arthurmaciel [~user@186.204.126.4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:41:23 hummm, when i want to specify the floating point precision i can use s,f,d,l + some number that seems to be the exponent ? is the exponent mandatory please ? (eg 1.0d0 -> 1.0d) 03:41:25 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:41:30 (yay, newbie question!) 03:41:58 you could type it into your lisp and see what happens 03:42:33 ho... indeed. let's try that 03:43:26 unbound-variable 1.0D \o/ 03:43:33 guess you can't. 03:43:50 -!- Arbamisto [~christoph@192.188.108.71] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 03:46:26 :) 03:47:40 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-cycfwevockgqqpip] has joined #lisp 03:52:50 -!- espadrine [~thaddee_t@acces2373.res.insa-lyon.fr] has quit [Quit: espadrine] 03:53:56 guess i'm too tired to code... (but still can't sleep)... well, i'll try to count electric sheep :) 03:54:01 thank you, have fun ! :) 03:54:23 -!- ker2x_ [~chatzilla@AToulouse-652-1-164-26.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 11.0/20120312181643]] 03:56:30 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:07 -!- yroeht [~yroeht@x.yroeht.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:57:50 yroeht [~yroeht@x.yroeht.eu] has joined #lisp 03:58:58 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:59:22 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.149] has joined #lisp 04:01:19 -!- flipout [~user@75-175-117-158.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:02:08 saschakb_ [~saschakb@p4FEA04F5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 04:03:13 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0D33.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:03:27 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-128-240.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:03:27 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:03:46 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:05:13 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:05:13 -!- kruhft [~user@S0106002401f331bd.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:05:37 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:07:14 -!- pnathan [~Adium@lb175203.dialup.fsr.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:08:01 flipout [~user@75-175-117-158.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:07 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:14:03 -!- killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 04:14:31 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:16:00 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:22:23 -!- scombinator [~user@203.171.40.170] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 9.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:23:31 -!- momo-reina [~user@aa20111001946f573a95.userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:25:53 yzg [~yzg@csdoor3.COMP.POLYU.EDU.HK] has joined #lisp 04:30:28 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 04:36:06 -!- k9quaint [~k9quaint@unaffiliated/k9quaint] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:37:52 CrazyEddy [~hypochond@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 04:37:52 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 04:39:50 -!- tensorpudding__ is now known as tensorpudding 04:44:26 -!- DataLinkDroid [~David@1.157.74.188] has quit [Quit: Bye] 04:48:36 Kenjin_ [~josesanto@bl19-236-146.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 04:50:02 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:50:11 -!- Kron [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 04:51:46 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.247.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:52:26 gilster [~gilster@ool-182e3b3e.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:54:47 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 04:54:55 -!- flipout [~user@75-175-117-158.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:59:51 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:00:32 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:02:26 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:03:34 pjb- [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 05:03:38 -!- saschakb_ [~saschakb@p4FEA04F5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:04:05 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 05:05:19 -!- CrazyEddy [~hypochond@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:07:02 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 05:07:28 -!- pjb is now known as Guest12060 05:08:13 k9quaint [~k9quaint@unaffiliated/k9quaint] has joined #lisp 05:09:22 -!- Guest12060 is now known as pjb 05:12:39 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-33-22.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:15:28 -!- ynniv [~ynniv@c-76-23-252-81.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:16:09 saschakb_ [~saschakb@p4FEA0ED3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 05:20:22 araujo [~araujo@190.38.61.1] has joined #lisp 05:20:22 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.38.61.1] has quit [Changing host] 05:20:22 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 05:21:09 CrazyEddy [~netlike@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 05:23:01 -!- gilster [~gilster@ool-182e3b3e.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:24:49 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-210-81.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:25:07 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-210-81.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 05:26:15 -!- cafesofie [~user@ool-18e4c9a0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:32:06 momo-reina [~user@aa20111001946f573ae8.userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:32:32 -!- CrazyEddy [~netlike@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:35:48 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:37:34 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 05:44:38 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:46:22 -!- hydo [~hydo@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: hydo] 05:46:39 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 05:47:11 -!- drysdam [~dr@pool-71-161-95-235.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:47:22 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-113-241.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:47:28 drysdam [~dr@pool-71-161-95-235.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:06 -!- realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-113-241.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:48:14 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-189-72.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:49:14 teggi [~teggi@123.21.169.208] has joined #lisp 05:49:14 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-123-195.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:49:36 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 05:52:38 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 05:52:44 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:57:58 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:58:49 -!- pcavs [~Adium@c-67-186-132-233.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:59:46 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 06:06:09 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:07:32 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:07:49 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:07:53 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 06:07:54 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 06:08:10 pnathan [~Adium@76.178.164.157] has joined #lisp 06:10:09 CrazyEddy [~carinal@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 06:11:37 -!- ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:11:40 sbelmont [~sbelmont@114.205.86.94] has joined #lisp 06:14:31 tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.148.194.65] has joined #lisp 06:16:40 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-210-81.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:17:52 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:18:02 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.195.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:21:51 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:21:53 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-189-72.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:23:07 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 06:23:51 kreol [~quassel@85.198.173.181] has joined #lisp 06:24:08 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 06:25:02 tritchey [~tritchey@64.134.226.237] has joined #lisp 06:28:58 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.77.245] has joined #lisp 06:32:31 -!- kreol [~quassel@85.198.173.181] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - ????????????? ??????. ?????.] 06:41:02 -!- Guest14172 [name@89.180.162.197] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:42:58 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:43:35 -!- tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.148.194.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:46:35 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-151-47.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:47:00 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-149-183.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 06:50:36 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-ebkyiqbbungbpzxl] has joined #lisp 06:54:05 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:54:29 sodel [~dralston@S0106687f74a12729.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:55:03 workflow [~workflow@178-83-8-30.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 06:57:36 TheMue [~TheMue@p5DDF79AB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:58:36 mucker [~harsha@183.83.55.176] has joined #lisp 07:00:01 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 07:00:03 [6502] [5e24f39c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.243.156] has joined #lisp 07:00:52 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 07:01:19 <[6502]> Hello. Quick poll: how many times in percentage your (let ...) block would break if substituted with (let* ...) ? 07:02:26 -!- pnathan [~Adium@76.178.164.157] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:03:30 [6502]: often enough not to want me try it. 07:04:17 [6502]: the question does not make sense, too. it is like asking "how often would your shell scripts fail if fgrep would be substituted by grep" 07:05:00 That sounds like a sensible question. 07:05:22 <[6502]> H4ns: I was just wondering why let is the "default" and let* the variant and not the other way around... 07:06:09 [6502]: that is propably historic 07:06:16 LET* behavior as the default would be more ergonomic most of the time, but LET has a nice direct correspondence with lambda 07:07:37 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-107-102.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 07:08:09 It would mainly break due to shadowing. 07:08:27 (Which let avoids) 07:08:28 Perhaps a better question would be the ratio of let*/let. For my current project it's 0.138 07:08:32 in my source base here, the ratio of let : let* is about 3:1 07:09:16 <[6502]> ok.. but how many let could be changed to let* without affecting the semantic? 07:09:31 those ratios are biased in favor of using LET by default, thus the question 07:09:49 [6502]: probably many, but readability would suffer 07:09:51 [6502]: you could easily write a little lisp program that read your sources, and check the free variables in the let expressions to see if it can be changed into a let* without difference. 07:09:52 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-qililausnbyxiaht] has joined #lisp 07:10:40 [6502]: let allows you to look at the initialization form alone, considering just the lexical environment. let* requires you to look at the other bindings in the same let*, too. 07:10:51 <[6502]> i found that in my code very few let uses would break if changed to let* and of course ~100% of let* uses would break if changed to let... because let* is uglier to both type and read 07:11:31 You can define a slet macro. 07:14:10 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-224.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:14:12 <[6502]> H4ns: so in your opinion let is easier to understand compared to let* or it's just logically simpler? The two are distinct concepts... 07:14:45 [6502]: code that uses let is easier to understand than code that uses let* 07:15:10 let* is defined in terms of let. let would be harder to define in terms of let*. 07:15:20 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@64.134.226.237] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 07:15:37 <[6502]> pjb: that is the logical simplicity property 07:16:44 albacker [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:16:44 -!- albacker [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Changing host] 07:16:44 albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #lisp 07:18:22 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:18:38 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-224.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:18:40 <[6502]> h4ns: well sure not always. otherwise there would be no let* and you would just use nested let forms 07:18:41 according to Paul Graham (in On Lisp), let* is an operator "in which imperative programs often lie concealed", if you're into the whole functional thing 07:19:16 though I'd love an example of let* doing this 07:20:06 [6502]: of course. it is more that let* is sometimes used to introduce intermediate names that are used only once, or to sequence operations rather than binding variables. 07:20:39 -!- momo-reina [~user@aa20111001946f573ae8.userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has left #lisp 07:22:21 robot-beethoven: he refers to the sequential nature of let*. 07:22:53 <[6502]> let support of multiple bindings seems a departure from simplicity and a concession to practicality, yet it stopped before let* 07:23:02 H4ns: as in "do one thing, then do another"? 07:23:08 robot-beethoven: right. 07:23:14 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:23:15 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 07:23:20 It's not sequential so much, but as shadowing nature. 07:23:35 (let ((a b) (b a)) ...) the bindings don't shadow the evaluations here. 07:23:51 Zhivago, off topic fact: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSJAwndDTds 07:23:54 In (let* ((a b) (b a) ...) the a is shadowed for the second evaluation. 07:23:54 <[6502]> and how many times do you use do* ? i found i never use that... 07:24:13 Quad: Regarding? 07:24:19 batteries 07:24:32 do* can be useful for destructuring. 07:24:46 (f (g (h x)) == (let* ((a (h x)) (b (g a)) (c (f b))) c) with improved debuggability. ;-) 07:24:53 e.g., you iterate a list, and then destructure the element into a variable. 07:25:25 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:25:29 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 07:25:30 -!- albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:25:43 <[6502]> Zhivago: good point, i defined my own macro for that 07:26:01 Well, do and friends are mostly workhorses for macros. 07:31:19 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:31:26 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 07:31:43 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:31:52 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-24.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:32:24 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 07:36:30 I still use DOLIST and DOTIMES, but LOOP has replaced other iterators for me for anything more complicated. 07:37:13 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:37:30 I generally stopped using DOTIMES when I caught some aging version of SBCL generating worse code than if I'd used LOOP :) 07:40:17 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.77.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:41:01 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d01283d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:42:02 -!- parabolize [~gyro@c-75-70-14-105.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:43:42 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:43:55 flipout [~user@75-175-117-158.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 07:43:59 parabolize [~gyro@c-75-70-14-105.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:37 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d01283d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:45:00 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-156-2.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:45:16 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d01283d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:46:46 gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 07:46:55 pjb: how is debuggability improved? 07:47:45 Ralith: when you break you can see what's in the variables a b and c. 07:48:20 -!- [6502] [5e24f39c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.243.156] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:48:22 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 07:48:32 Now of course, you could have a debugger that would record the history of computing so that you could ask it after the fact what results were returned by what function. 07:48:37 pjb: you mean the let* form has improved debuggability? 07:48:41 See "debugging in time" in youtube. 07:48:44 Yes. 07:48:54 ah, that was unclear 07:49:05 "x = y  z" generally implies y lacks z. 07:49:18 and that x has it 07:49:54 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 07:50:40 narf. simple-date does not deal with leap years correctly :( 07:50:45 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:52:28 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 07:54:16 it's simple-date for simpler times 07:56:44 -!- CrazyEddy [~carinal@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:57:53 They dropped the leap second already. Perhaps they'll drop leap years next? http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/calendar.html 07:58:36 pjb: nice idea. i'll tell them that we've leapfrogged that development and just don't do leap years anymore. 07:59:27 they didn't drop the leap second 07:59:34 splittist [d417faa6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.23.250.166] has joined #lisp 07:59:51 Didn't they? 08:00:04 There was talk about dropping it. 08:00:24 talks don't mean anything 08:03:38 springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has joined #lisp 08:05:21 ehu [~ehuels@109.34.220.237] has joined #lisp 08:05:39 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:14:00 -!- springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:14:39 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:14:49 format question: if we're iterating over a list in lisp, and we want to use a V format directive parameter within the iteration, is there any way to only read the V once before/after the iteration list, instead of between each list value? so in "~{~VD~}", for example, we don't need a new V between each number in the list argument? 08:14:56 good morning 08:15:50 robot-beethoven: build the format string beforehand, ie. (format t (format "~~{~~~d~~}" number) ...) 08:16:14 anaumov [~anaumov@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has joined #lisp 08:16:58 flip215: thanks 08:18:12 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-108-110.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: sleep] 08:20:46 springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has joined #lisp 08:21:24 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:21:59 xan_ [~xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 08:22:08 bas_ [~bas@89.184.179.185] has joined #lisp 08:22:08 -!- bas_ is now known as Skola 08:23:52 or you can do (loop for i in list do (format t "~vd" 2 i)) 08:24:41 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has left #lisp 08:24:45 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 08:26:29 nha [~prefect@dhcp-15-224.math.tu-berlin.de] has joined #lisp 08:27:06 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-240-66.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:27:30 s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-240-66.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 08:31:32 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:41:05 schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 08:42:35 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl20-209-218.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:46:58 bjonnh [~bjonnh@147.210.71.83] has joined #lisp 08:55:06 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-dtzlksjglrrxcesz] has joined #lisp 08:57:05 kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 08:58:09 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.108.77] has joined #lisp 08:59:55 -!- springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:00:40 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 09:01:14 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:01:34 antonv [2e35c31b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.27] has joined #lisp 09:09:28 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:10:07 -!- BigHugeDog [~QQ@221.0.13.125] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:11:24 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has joined #lisp 09:14:23 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:14:38 -!- mucker [~harsha@183.83.55.176] has left #lisp 09:15:03 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has joined #lisp 09:17:07 Is there a function that adds an item to the end of a list? Like (foo a b) would be equivilant to (setf a (nconc a (list b))) - I could swear there was but I can't find it. 09:17:17 there's no 09:17:28 and you shouldn't want to do that 09:17:40 add to the beginning instead 09:19:06 In this case, I am unconcerned with efficiency while building the list, but want to be able to find the first matching item in order added quickly later; also need to be able to add to it at any time so just building and reversing isn't appropriate. 09:19:34 Open to suggestions, but adding to the end seemd simplest. 09:19:58 if you use LOOP, adding to the end is efficient 09:19:59 you can hold a reference to the tail.. 09:20:11 docAvid: push + nreverse 09:20:26 Since you don't want to find them in order WHILE adding them but only LATER. 09:22:00 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-210-81.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:22:19 OK well I shoudl be in bed anyhow :) So I'll sleep on those suggestions - thanks guys 09:22:23 Gnight 09:23:46 springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has joined #lisp 09:29:13 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 09:29:20 but on the up side, fixing bugs is a question of honor for marijn :) 09:30:05 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 09:31:24 -!- KDr2 [~kdr2@123.112.67.43] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:33:58 and on the down side? 09:35:13 the bug itself is the down side. 09:35:42 like in "i used the broken version to calculate all days in february" for some real purpose. 09:37:25 who knew Microsoft Azure used lisp. 09:38:03 hefner: for what? 09:38:10 (and no, i did not) 09:38:21 Clazure? 09:38:23 sorry, attempted humor. 09:43:39 let me guess. It's this network thing? 09:45:12 it's this blue thing 09:45:25 not azure, the lisp part 09:45:37 http://lisp4.cisco.com/ 09:47:24 anyone remember from a few years ago, a loader for a nifty bitmap font format written by someone (mgr, I think) from around here? I can't find it on the web. 09:47:36 -!- MrBusiness [~MrBusines@184.99.7.19] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:48:29 (it doesn't help that I can't remember the name of the format, but it was for big fancy glyphs of the sort you might store in a PNG file, not little 1-bit PCF-type things) 09:48:40 -!- sodel [~dralston@S0106687f74a12729.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:49:04 -!- impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442544.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:49:19 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-113-241.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:49:25 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 09:50:41 bdf? 09:51:14 google reveals http://www.lisphacker.com/files/bdf-parser.lisp 09:52:02 no, although that's neat. 09:52:04 -!- springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:53:03 machine2 [~machine4@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:53:52 no as in "not bdf", or "not nyef's bdf-parser", or both? 09:56:40 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:57:00 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 09:57:24 both. 09:59:59 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:01:18 -!- saschakb_ [~saschakb@p4FEA0ED3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:05:37 springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has joined #lisp 10:14:49 ker2x [~ker2x@89.30.127.162] has joined #lisp 10:14:53 meep meep :) 10:15:53 anyone could tell me more about this error please ? http://pastebin.com/Kwbeitvw 10:16:47 it's better to use this on something that has threads 10:17:19 although clisp can have threads, i can't vouch for their quality 10:17:21 -!- ghuntley [~ghuntley@14-200-9-232.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: .] 10:17:35 but being unimpressed by clisp itself, i wouldn't hold my hopes high 10:19:02 i'm on my linux, not on my windows, so i have more choice about the implementation. i just took the one already installed :) 10:19:35 more choice and you didn't choose! 10:19:48 sbcl ? 10:19:53 SBCL would be best, yes 10:21:20 ha, better, now i have a usefull error : ASDF:MISSING-DEPENDENCY 10:21:38 have you tried using quicklisp? 10:21:58 nope 10:22:08 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-231-151.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:29 Component BUDDHABROT-SYSTEM::PNG not found, required by # 10:22:31 :) 10:23:03 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-cycfwevockgqqpip] has left #lisp 10:23:51 ghuntley [~ghuntley@14-200-9-232.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:24:06 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-113-241.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 10:24:08 ker2x: now is the time to try quicklisp 10:24:36 oh goddamnit, downloaded buddhabrot-1.0.tar.gz and it didn't have a toplevel directory! 10:24:40 the worst crime 10:24:44 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-149-183.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:24:57 i try to understand what this asdf thingy is doing 10:25:04 stassats`: yes :( 10:25:15 i always try tar -ztvf :) 10:25:24 just in case someone do that 10:26:03 i have a script for unzip which optionally creates a directory, because they most often don't have it 10:26:29 but in a tar! unacceptable 10:26:32 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-231-151.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:26:42 MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-232-182.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 10:27:28 ho, seems i already installed quicklisp 10:27:35 i'm amazed that gnu tar does not have a --require-subdirectories option 10:27:45 it was some times ago probably, because i don't remember 10:28:15 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-145-63.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 10:30:44 -!- springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:31:30 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-232-182.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:33:25 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:33:30 -!- Kenjin_ [~josesanto@bl19-236-146.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 10:33:43 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:33:52 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-236-146.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 10:33:53 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:33:59 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-236-146.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 10:34:35 springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has joined #lisp 10:36:24 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-171-146.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:37:06 -!- yzg [~yzg@csdoor3.COMP.POLYU.EDU.HK] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:37:29 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-135-21.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 10:39:40 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-145-63.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:40:16 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:40:41 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:44:20 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-ebkyiqbbungbpzxl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:44:55 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-135-21.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:44:55 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:48:11 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM49-252-186-100.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:48:59 -!- springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 10:53:20 -!- tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:53:27 tessier [~treed@216.105.40.125] has joined #lisp 10:53:48 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-224-132.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 10:56:08 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-58-165-252-158.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:57:25 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: go home] 11:00:31 jokoon [~zonax@pai34-7-83-152-181-214.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:01:50 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-224-132.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:02:09 kilon [~user@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 11:02:13 uwjweq [~jeyisu@HSI-KBW-046-005-177-112.hsi8.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 11:05:45 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-128-116.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 11:12:03 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-230-65.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 11:13:14 paul0` [~user@177.132.101.9] has joined #lisp 11:13:19 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-128-116.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:15:30 MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-131-131.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 11:17:30 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-132-103.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 11:17:43 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-230-65.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:18:08 zonax9 [~zonax@pai34-7-83-152-181-214.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:20:18 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-131-131.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:21:38 -!- jokoon [~zonax@pai34-7-83-152-181-214.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:23:55 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-132-103.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:25:23 Levente [~Levente@catv-89-135-133-211.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 11:25:34 -!- nha [~prefect@dhcp-15-224.math.tu-berlin.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:26:24 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-158-231.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 11:31:24 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@100.Red-88-11-23.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:37:01 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:39:01 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:42:38 -!- naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:44:42 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:44:56 naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has joined #lisp 11:45:09 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Quit: cya] 11:46:23 kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-yxuutnxkgfgfxjjm] has joined #lisp 11:46:23 -!- kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-yxuutnxkgfgfxjjm] has quit [Changing host] 11:46:23 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 11:46:27 how do I return the value of a loop variable from the loop form after a for-loop has completed? 11:46:43 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:47:01 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 11:47:08 finally (return var) 11:47:23 ah, ok 11:49:44 -!- flipout [~user@75-175-117-158.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:50:21 note that iteration variables may not have the value you're expecting them to have 11:50:47 didi [~user@187.122.1.221] has joined #lisp 11:51:42 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:53:12 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 11:53:21 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 11:55:52 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-htetzytjnkkutrcs] has joined #lisp 11:55:57 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-58-165-252-158.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:57:33 -!- Levente [~Levente@catv-89-135-133-211.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:59:29 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-158-231.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 12:00:21 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #lisp 12:02:47 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-158-231.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:03:41 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-149-231.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:26 CrazyEddy [~overlift@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 12:05:16 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-107-102.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:06:02 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-158-231.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:07:42 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-218-223-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:07:57 hlavaty [~user@91-65-218-223-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 12:08:43 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-233-156.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:20 -!- kilon [~user@178.59.17.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:09:56 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-149-231.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:10:07 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-htetzytjnkkutrcs] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:10:38 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-107-102.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 12:11:53 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:38 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 12:15:21 MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-236-223.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:38 -!- didi [~user@187.122.1.221] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:18:10 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-233-156.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:20:46 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-236-223.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:22:42 urandom__ [~user@p548A21C6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:28:14 budhabrot? "What in the world had happened to system names. These days you can hardly say what anything is for" 12:28:37 buddhabrot is exactly what it sounds like 12:29:26 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:30:03 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:30:22 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 12:30:30 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:30:42 egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@195.160.233.181] has joined #lisp 12:31:40 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-171-146.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:31:56 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 12:32:10 doh, I stand corrected.. thought it was another web server or http client for a second 12:33:19 there's an informal rule that those have to be some kind of Frank Zappa reference. 12:35:42 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-156-2.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:35:45 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 12:37:22 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 12:37:58 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:38:34 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-171-146.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:38:41 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:39:00 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 12:39:52 snearch [~snearch@g225077214.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:39:59 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:41:59 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 12:42:36 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 12:42:54 kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 12:43:49 stassats: in this particular case, it's a 'with' variable that I'm selectively mutating inside the for-loop, then wanting to return the final value. finally (return var) did the trick 12:44:06 *Phoodus* is slowly getting into this whole 'loop' thing :-P 12:44:12 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:45:33 rvrebane [~rvrebane@valjapaas.vkhk.ee] has joined #lisp 12:48:00 icrazyhack [horieyui@115.173.249.104] has joined #lisp 12:50:09 chupish [182c5af4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.44.90.244] has joined #lisp 12:50:10 Now that it will remind people of a hip language (Coffeescript) instead of a dieing one (COBOL) loop can become well liked;) 12:51:48 pnq [~nick@ACA20011.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 12:53:46 hmm 12:53:51 pcavs [~Adium@c-67-186-132-233.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:53:52 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-33-22.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:55:58 nha [~prefect@dhcp-15-224.math.tu-berlin.de] has joined #lisp 12:59:10 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:01:09 -!- am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:03:43 -!- workflow [~workflow@178-83-8-30.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:04:39 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-123-81.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 13:05:30 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:07:19 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 13:08:09 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-117.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 13:08:19 -!- pcavs [~Adium@c-67-186-132-233.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:08:38 -!- orivej [~orivej@ip-83-149-3-66.nwgsm.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:10:01 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:10:10 -!- parabolize [~gyro@c-75-70-14-105.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:12:31 parabolize [~gyro@c-75-70-14-105.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:41 Phoodus: most ppl end up upgrading to iterate in the end 13:13:10 ILTWYS"most" 13:14:29 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:15:34 ILTWYS? 13:15:45 "i like the way you say" 13:16:23 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 13:16:31 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:34 oh. :-) 13:16:34 Levente [~Levente@catv-89-135-133-211.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 13:16:56 usually indicates that something is an overstatement or understatement 13:19:10 and ILTWYS"J" is a shorthand for ILTWYS"just" 13:19:29 stassats`: some lisp coders have a fundamental dislike of anything using code walking, so they are anti-iterators 13:20:12 i seem to recall that many features of iterate could be implemented without the code-walking aspect of it 13:20:38 i just don't dislike LOOP, and iterate offers only marginal improvements and not enough reasons to switch to it 13:20:47 its the code walking that makes it good, ie (iterate (...tons of nested logic... (collect (whatever)))) 13:20:49 also considering that LOOP is built-in 13:21:43 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA20011.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:22:44 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-123-81.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:22:53 also it expands macros inside, so you can do (defmacro minimize-and-maximize ...), then do (multiple-value-bind (min max) (iterate (...) (minimize-and-maximize (expr ...)))) 13:24:07 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:24:24 i'm in the "if your loop has too much nesting it should be split"-camp 13:27:23 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:27:54 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:31:06 leo2007 [~leo@123.123.255.238] has joined #lisp 13:33:29 pcavs [~Adium@63.139.127.6] has joined #lisp 13:33:47 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:34:13 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-mkekopkchraznaup] has joined #lisp 13:35:40 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 13:37:15 pnathan [~Adium@76.178.164.157] has joined #lisp 13:38:30 *maxm-* agrees with small building blocks strategy, but personally I often run into a roadblock of having it harder and harder to come up with function names as you deconstruct into smaller blocks 13:39:16 Pick names that make sense in context. 13:39:52 Sbidicuda [~antani@host249-171-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:43:04 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:43:26 mvilleneuve_ [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:43:46 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:44:31 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 13:44:35 add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-15-182.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 13:44:45 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 13:44:58 -!- pjb is now known as Guest1861 13:45:26 kushal [~kdas@114.143.162.252] has joined #lisp 13:45:26 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.162.252] has quit [Changing host] 13:45:27 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 13:47:28 -!- Guest1861 is now known as pjb` 13:47:33 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 13:48:03 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 13:48:15 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 13:48:23 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:51:39 dekuked [~user@pool-108-7-203-109.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:55 what's the best ffi library for working with c++ code? 13:52:58 cffi 13:53:34 dekuked: C++ doesn't tend to play nice with other languages though. if possible, you'll want to connect to its C counterpart 13:54:03 it works ok if you use extern "C" 13:54:48 That turns off C++ manglery, which is all system dependent and hideous. 13:54:54 Well the problem mostly is that modern C++ API tend to use a lot of templates, and that is really not possible to do FFI on templates 13:55:01 *maxm-* is in discussion to get into allegro beta, so I'll be porting my stuff to allegro, and will switch my c++ bindings to cffi from sb-alien 13:55:18 in doing so I'll try to abstract the boost::shared_ptr stuff into a usable library 13:55:19 Have you considered using an RPC bridge instead? 13:55:29 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-117.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:55:40 Sockets are so much nicer indeed. 13:55:41 metaphysician [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 13:55:46 its not full c++ bindings, but imho having shared-ptr's working and GC'ed is half way there for any practical application 13:55:47 I used to be younger and stupider and to think that ffis were generally a good thing. 13:56:11 These days, I think that trying to share a process between two alien run-times is excessively optimistic. 13:56:11 of course it's possible to do FFI with templates. 13:56:12 Zhivago: what's an example of a rpc bridge? 13:56:29 an* 13:56:33 dekuked: corba! 13:56:39 *H4ns* ducks 13:56:41 dekuked: unix RPC includes: ip (tcp or udp), sockets, pipes, shared memory, semaphores, signals, etc. 13:56:45 soap! 13:56:55 You just need to instantiate them for given arguments with a C++ compiler before calling 'em. C++ even has explicit syntax for doing that. 13:57:00 Ugh, soap... 13:57:15 Even corba is better. 13:57:41 When I was a kid, I heard of Corba, but misremembered it when looking at some books. 13:57:51 And that's the story of how I know a bit of COBOL. 13:58:11 People still use CORBA? 13:58:18 dbus 13:58:22 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.149] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:58:43 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.149] has joined #lisp 13:58:55 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:59:04 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-117.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 13:59:08 Sgeo: i thought you became a herpetologist 13:59:42 stassats, heh 14:00:14 X-Scale [name@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has joined #lisp 14:00:56 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 14:05:37 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-117.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:05:46 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.159.184] has joined #lisp 14:06:06 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.108.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:09:34 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:10:06 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:05 -!- kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 14:11:25 corba != dbus 14:11:38 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-171-146.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:12:27 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.34.157] has joined #lisp 14:12:29 didi: SOAP can be fine if certain requirements are met. Unfortunately, those requirements are often not met no matter which transport is used (that is, "REST" and other's might get the same shit) 14:14:17 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:14:30 p_l|dublin: The spec of the thing is very big. IMO it is a step back from the simple xml-rpc. 14:14:58 didi: the thing is, the spec is not monolithic, that is, it's not "all or nothing" 14:14:59 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-117.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 14:15:17 i'd take something like "json-rpc" 14:15:24 and once you kick out RPC model (which is broken anyway) and use Message model, it's getting simpler 14:16:08 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 14:16:54 -!- zonax9 [~zonax@pai34-7-83-152-181-214.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:18:22 I don't know; everytime I've tried to use SOAP tools, it has been a disaster of mixing generated & custom written code to get anything to talk to one another. 14:18:43 SOAP does seem rather silly. 14:18:49 I mean, it worked (eventually) but man was it a pain in the butt 14:18:55 At least JSON is becoming popular. 14:19:07 *Xach* uses HTML-TEMPLATE and plexippus-xpath to fake soap from templates & xpath paths 14:19:11 chupish: the feeling I get is that many "real world" users just ran a generator on their java classes and export that over SOAP using RPC model 14:19:20 chupish: basically combining all the worst things you can 14:19:49 yeah, but we had a Java side that had to talk to a .Net side and the difference was a pain 14:19:51 too much cargo-cult, as always 14:20:11 Zhivago: I'm not sure JSON should be seen as an advantage... 14:20:21 stassats: I suspect it's a related disease to the idea of generating code from UML diagrams and vice versa 14:20:35 Xach: I agree; the only time I had painless SOAP was when I faked it, but that was for a very small auth message 14:21:10 there is no magic button. "What if we use web 2.0 over XML, while desiginng in UML?, does this change the estimate" "you still have to write code".. "What if we used Rational Rose, Clear Case, and hired a architect with british accent? He can generate code directly from UML" "you still have to write code" 14:21:34 maxm-: hahahaha 14:21:37 JSON is basically s-exps with more built-in context and more concise expression. 14:21:56 maxm-: don't forget "programmers are field-replaceable parts" 14:22:25 what do you mean "institutional knowledge?" 14:22:49 So you have { 'a': 12 } rather than (dict a 12), and you don't need to know that the other end thinks that dict means what you think dict means. 14:24:16 -!- snearch [~snearch@g225077214.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 14:24:56 Do you have to agree that strings are delimited only by double-quotes? 14:25:26 Probably. :) 14:25:59 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 14:26:17 xpololz [~xpololz@80.203.124.203] has joined #lisp 14:26:37 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:26:51 stassats: I did M-x slime-list-threads, found your blog entry at http://slime-tips.tumblr.com/post/11313993519/monitoring-and-controlling-threads , set the variable slime-threads-update-interval to .5 and nothing happened until I killed the buffer *slime-threads* and redid M-x slime-list-threads. 14:27:24 you don't need to kill it, you could just press g 14:27:39 or M-x slime-list-threads, i'm not sure 14:27:40 -!- p_l|dublin is now known as p_l 14:28:53 right, M-x slime-list-threads 14:29:44 -!- xpololz [~xpololz@80.203.124.203] has left #lisp 14:29:47 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:30:16 (i thought that's obvious) 14:31:18 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 14:31:22 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp 14:31:52 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 14:32:27 stassats: Allright, then. 14:33:09 -!- Levente [~Levente@catv-89-135-133-211.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:33:26 -!- antonv [2e35c31b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.27] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:35:07 Neronus: I keep getting your articles posted multiple times to your feed 14:35:46 Xach: OK, any idea what that might be about? I assume I need to insert a timestamp into the rss feed? 14:35:54 I guess that will fix 14:36:03 I will take care of it tonight after work. Sorry about that 14:36:38 Neronus: I read 'em in google reader and a day or two ago they all came back through. today i got two repeats. 14:37:03 I'll try google reader then and see if I can fix the problem 14:37:47 Levente [~Levente@catv-89-135-133-211.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 14:38:23 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:39:15 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-113-241.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:25 is this an allowed type specifier? (deftype foo () '(or integer (cons foo foo))) 14:40:25 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 14:40:58 my SBCL version goes into infinite recursion on (typep 1 'foo) 14:40:59 no 14:41:00 CL does not support recursive types. 14:41:31 hmm... thanks, CLISP seems to be ok 14:42:16 It doesn't forbid implementations from doing so. 14:44:16 i'm surprised recursive types aren't supported 14:44:57 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:46:49 Neronus: or a guid. 14:46:55 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:47:10 madnificent: checking them will be O(n) 14:47:26 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 14:47:33 stassats: with n being? 14:47:40 size of input 14:48:11 yes, that'd be true. yet still, i'm surprised that the feature-laden beast doesn't support it. don't know if i mind it yet. 14:48:43 Anything tricky or confusing was generally removed in order to avoid making implementors' lives difficult. 14:48:44 it could be handy as a compiler hint for what can be inside a list 14:49:34 Zhivago: really? i seem to remember guy steele saying in an interview that the most commonly used argument was "a sufficently smart compiler will be able to do it" or something in those lines. 14:49:51 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-72-163.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 14:50:11 pkhuong: yupp, I just figured that out. Thank you :) 14:51:11 ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has joined #lisp 14:51:21 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-66-65-55-75.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:51:25 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:53:39 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:54:31 ynniv [~ynniv@c-76-23-252-81.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:46 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:54:56 ngz [~user@22.220.67.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 14:55:13 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:56:08 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 14:56:26 -!- ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:56:28 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 14:57:04 Harag [~phil@dsl-244-48-108.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:57:44 ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has joined #lisp 15:00:14 -!- ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has quit [Client Quit] 15:00:46 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.83.157] has joined #lisp 15:00:47 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.83.157] has quit [Changing host] 15:00:47 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:00:56 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:01:03 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-171-146.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:03:10 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 15:05:58 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 15:06:36 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:06:45 -!- pnathan [~Adium@76.178.164.157] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:07:29 -!- machine2 [~machine4@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: LANSD] 15:07:42 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 15:08:11 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:08:36 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 15:11:25 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:12:06 didi [~user@187.122.1.221] has joined #lisp 15:12:40 -!- didi [~user@187.122.1.221] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:13:02 araujo [~araujo@190.38.61.1] has joined #lisp 15:13:02 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.38.61.1] has quit [Changing host] 15:13:02 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 15:13:08 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 15:13:44 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:16:48 milanj [~milanj_@212-200-192-196.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:17:43 -!- egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@195.160.233.181] has quit [Quit: egnarts-ms] 15:18:01 urandom_ [~user@p548A4F48.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:34 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM49-252-186-100.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:18:36 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A21C6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:19:07 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM49-252-186-100.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:20:08 -!- Skola [~bas@89.184.179.185] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:21:54 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:21:58 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:23:08 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM49-252-186-100.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:23:36 -!- urandom_ [~user@p548A4F48.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:23:49 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 15:23:54 urandom__ [~user@p548A4F48.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:31 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 15:26:13 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-117.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:27:29 -!- benny [~benny@i577A1D70.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:29:02 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 15:29:17 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.159.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:29:43 -!- nialo` [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:31:18 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-117.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 15:31:37 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-171-146.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:34:44 Amadiro [~Amadiro@1x-193.157.225.59.uio.no] has joined #lisp 15:36:24 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-113-241.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 15:38:18 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:40:02 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 15:46:53 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 15:48:53 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-39-4-120.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:12 Morning folks. 15:49:34 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:50:35 hello gigamonkey 15:51:08 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 12.0/20120314195616]] 15:51:16 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-171-146.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:54:32 airolson [~airolson@OTWAON23-1176252438.sdsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:55:49 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:56:10 what, morning already?! 15:56:33 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:04 yo 15:57:14 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 15:57:35 jdz: in the only true timezone it's afternoon already ;) 15:58:44 Kryztof: did you see the thing from 2006 where someone reimplemented part of R on top of CMUCL and sped up some benchmark by a couple orders of magnitude? 16:00:59 -!- uwjweq [~jeyisu@HSI-KBW-046-005-177-112.hsi8.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:01:57 tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.148.194.65] has joined #lisp 16:02:13 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.34.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:02:35 -!- airolson [~airolson@OTWAON23-1176252438.sdsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 16:02:44 m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.175] has joined #lisp 16:02:51 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.104.244] has joined #lisp 16:02:58 -!- ker2x [~ker2x@89.30.127.162] has quit [Quit: hop] 16:03:06 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 16:05:50 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-qililausnbyxiaht] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:06:24 gigamonkey: yes 16:06:35 the R people generally have some Lisp knowledge 16:07:06 the evaluation model in R is /so/ broken. (((((((((((foo()))))))))))) is slower than foo(), for example 16:07:17 Know why nothing ever came of that? 16:07:18 and `(` is redefineable, as is `{` :-) 16:07:40 gigamonkey: presumably because there weren't the resources to reimplement and test everything 16:08:04 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:08:15 they have a byte-compiler now, which gives one order of magnitude. And there's Rcpp too, not that I've used that, for the real speed freaks 16:09:32 -!- Levente [~Levente@catv-89-135-133-211.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:10:22 -!- anaumov [~anaumov@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:10:39 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:11:00 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:12:25 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:12:59 hrm are there any implications for foreign code locking (internally) in sbcl threads? 16:13:29 -!- mvilleneuve_ [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:14:08 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-108-110.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:28 -!- metaphysician [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:16:43 *maxm-* finished his flet/labels syntax highlighting hack, http://i.imgur.com/eDo2e.png code @ http://paste.lisp.org/display/128494 16:17:30 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:17:46 i can't see what it does 16:18:10 x, y, reduce-angle have function-name face 16:18:32 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 16:18:33 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:18:33 makes it easier to navigate large flet/labels forms 16:18:33 ok 16:19:52 maxm-: why is it a hack? 16:20:11 lbc [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 16:20:20 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:27 jdz: does not use "official" emacs way of highlighting multiline constructs (i tried but gave up as too complex), hardcoded for maximum 9 local functions etc 16:22:59 I added (font-lock-add-keywords 'emacs-lisp-mode *mm/font-lock-keywords*) but it doesn't work in emacs lisp 16:23:06 workflow [~workflow@178-83-8-30.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:23:33 pjb: you need to redo M-x emacs-lisp-mode I think for it to take effect after changing font-lock-keywords 16:24:31 ok. 16:24:58 Nice. Thanks. Submit it to slime. 16:26:02 slime doesn't do syntax-highlighting, submit it to emacs 16:26:37 stassats: rms won't accept it without rework, he does not like "will only work for max of 9 local functions" type solutions 16:26:43 stassats: really? I thought it did something. But I must have dreamed. 16:27:46 pjb: it adds some keywords, which are cl-specific 16:28:01 maxm-: rms doesn't maintain emacs anymore 16:28:39 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:28:44 pjb: but most of the highlighting is done by emacs, so, emacs would be the right place to have it 16:28:47 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:28:54 oh well, I'll rework it as a patch to emacs and submit it 16:30:41 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:35:15 snearch [~snearch@g225077214.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:35:24 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 16:36:11 guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-skhgnwukydprfwra] has joined #lisp 16:36:48 wbooze_ [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-154-86.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:37:02 -!- dekuked [~user@pool-108-7-203-109.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:37:43 guther_ [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-gfvztoupuvtryggi] has joined #lisp 16:38:25 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-171-146.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:38:54 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-154-86.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:40:02 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-154-86.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:41:49 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:43:38 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-154-86.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:43:50 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:45:19 -!- splittist [d417faa6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.23.250.166] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:45:52 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.220.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:46:06 -!- snearch [~snearch@g225077214.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 16:49:17 -!- kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:50:27 Kryztof: another off-topic R question. Are the many R libraries that make it so valuable written in pure R or is it like Python where all the good stuff is actually in C? 16:50:57 I.e. if you had an R->CL compiler, how far would that get you? 16:51:11 I'm getting a symbol conflict in my code that programmatically creates another package. When my program defines a class called switch, it conflicts with switch from alexandria, which is used in my package, but not the one I'm generating. Is there a better way to define functions in other libraries? 16:51:16 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-mkekopkchraznaup] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:51:27 other than wrapping the defun un (let ((*package* something)) ... ) 16:51:39 (in-package "SOMETHING") 16:51:49 (let ((*package* something)) ... ) occurs too late! 16:52:21 not that in-package will help with that 16:52:40 my belief is that there's a large amount in R 16:52:56 fisxoj: why do you create a package programmatically? 16:53:09 I'm playing with gnome's gobject introspection 16:53:10 -!- ynniv [~ynniv@c-76-23-252-81.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ynniv] 16:53:14 a good R to CL compiler gets you a fair way, but the problem I think is that the language semantics are textbook "very hard to compile" 16:53:16 Xach: I assume that the blog will pop up once more because I know added guids. It should not happen again. 16:53:17 fisxoj: use shadowing-import. 16:53:33 or use shadow. 16:53:34 pjb, I don't want it in my package, I want it in the package it generates 16:53:39 reified environments, reified stacks, etc 16:53:57 redefineable brackets 16:54:02 fisxoj: then you have to programmatically define a class too 16:54:09 with the right symbols and all 16:54:12 fisxoj: shadow and shadowing-import are the functional API behind defpackage :shadow and :shadowing-import. 16:54:28 I see. But a SCC could at least make it so if you don't use those features you don't pay for them. Or something. 16:54:38 fisxoj: though i'm still not convinced that it's the right way to go 16:54:48 gigamonkey: yes 16:55:05 I do programmatically define the class, that's when I get the package lock error 16:55:20 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:55:24 well, then you're doing it wrong 16:55:26 paste the code? 16:55:26 along the lines of (let ((*package* generated-package)) (eval `(defclass ...))) 16:55:32 gladly 16:55:54 vsync [~vsync@BLISTER.QUADIUM.NET] has joined #lisp 16:56:24 gigamonkey: there's also the fact that basically the way to write (pseudo-)macros in R is to do that kind of stack and environment manipulation 16:56:31 fexprs, if you will 16:56:43 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-117.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:57:00 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:57:19 fisxoj: (let ((p (make-package "P" :use "CL"))) (export (intern "SWITCH" "P") "P") (shadowing-import (package-exports "ALEXANDRIA") "P") p) 16:57:42 fisxoj: I told you let *package* occurs too late! 16:57:50 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 16:57:54 fisxoj: and don't listen to pjb 16:58:01 let works at run-time. 16:58:01 kenanb [5e36ede3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.54.237.227] has joined #lisp 16:58:06 *package* works at read-time! 16:58:14 yes, I'm defining these things at run time 16:58:28 If you don't read anything there's no point in binding *package*. 16:58:48 hi folks, is there any way to find out if a slot is defined for a class? 16:58:59 fisxoj: also, classes and macros don't conflict. 16:59:10 fisxoj: CL is a lisp-2, or better named, a lisp-. 16:59:12 there's a point, intern and find-symbol use *package* as a default package 16:59:25 There's no problem in having a class named alexandria:switch. 16:59:46 kenanb: make an instance, check slot-exists-p 16:59:50 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.123.255.238] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.94.1] 16:59:50 alvis [~user@tx-184-5-64-3.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:08 if making an instance isn't an option, use MOP 17:00:52 stassats: making an instance is the option I use right now but it is problematic in my case 17:01:12 kenanb: what is your case? 17:01:23 just a sec, I'll paste 17:01:53 with mop: (defun find-slot (slot-name class) (find slot-name (c2mop:class-slots class) :key #'c2mop:slot-definition-name)) 17:02:52 and why do you need to know whether a slot exists? 17:03:42 I think I'm going to say thanks for the help for now, it seems like I just forgot to set *package*, but I'll keep banging on it 17:04:12 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-117.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 17:05:09 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:05:22 stassats: http://paste.lisp.org/display/128495 17:05:36 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 17:05:58 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:06:08 stassats: I am parsing an ies file with [foo]bar style of key value pairs, some keywords are standard and should be defined, others are user defined 17:06:20 (concatenate 'string (pathname-name filepath) "." (pathname-type filepath)) why not just use file-namestring? 17:07:03 kenanb: so, what's the problem? 17:07:06 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:07:29 so i want to parse it into an object, bind standard slots to values and gather all user defined keywords into an alist 17:07:49 and why store :file and :path at all? why not just have awhile pathname? 17:08:07 and (with-open-file (stream (pathname file)) ...) == (with-open-file (stream file) ...) 17:08:32 i want to assert some properties of ies classes according to their revision numbers at some point 17:08:43 and also check for general errors 17:08:45 kenanb: alright, and why is the current strategy problematic? 17:09:07 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:09:19 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:10:04 stassats: I think i need assertions in an initialize-instance method but assertions will not be checked properly if i do it with current way, since most of the slots are not initialized at make-instance 17:10:24 I don't really know if initialize-instance does what i think, so I may be wrong :) 17:10:33 trying to learn by doing it 17:10:41 kenanb: look at the initargs of the slot-definitions and just make an arglist of the ones that match and set the others aside 17:10:42 and why not use (intern name #.*package*) instead of (read-from-string (remove-if-not #'alphanumericp name))? 17:11:08 kenanb: you can write a CHECK-THINGS function, and call after you're done initializing 17:11:18 case-folding? 17:11:30 for anyone's future reference, the problem was running the code-generating-code from inside the package that generated the code, worked fine running in cl-user 17:12:15 fisxoj: there shouldn't be any difference, if done correctly 17:12:46 ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-107-035-184.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:57 stassats, ok, I'll add it to the todo list to look into once I get the bigger things running. Thanks for the help! 17:14:29 For anyone interested: I've put a Common Lisp eval and CLHS bot available at #lisp-repl channel. I've added some support for streams, reader and printer features. 17:15:01 -!- kenanb [5e36ede3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.54.237.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:15:05 now somebody should hook up ansi-tests random tester to cl-irc and let them chat 17:16:44 kenanb [5e36ede3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.54.237.227] has joined #lisp 17:17:14 sorry, connection problems 17:18:22 vsync: that is exactly what I was asking how to do, but I don't know how to check the slots. 17:19:45 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:19:48 vsync: if you meant, do it manually, it won't work, different ies revisions mandate different keywords and define varying optionals 17:19:48 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:20:17 Kreol[UKR] [~quassel@85.198.173.181] has joined #lisp 17:21:15 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:22:17 tritchey [~tritchey@108.60.121.114] has joined #lisp 17:22:27 stassats`: do you have any other criticizm on the foo function? I corrected file-namestring part, as you might have guess I didn't use it because I had no idea it exists :) 17:22:53 kenanb: scroll above, i gave you a find-slot function 17:23:09 sorry I lost it because of the disconnection 17:23:18 webchat doesn't forgive disconnection 17:23:24 dtw: "some support" - you're building up a CL implementation? Or refining a sandbox? 17:23:27 kenanb: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/12.03.22 17:23:35 ah, thanks man 17:24:16 *maxm-* just realized that his labels/flet font-lock hack can also be used to give COND conditions a different background.. possibilities are endless, hard not to get overboard with this 17:24:17 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-68-41-30-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:24 -!- achiu [~achiu@ip68-96-95-213.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 17:24:54 stassats: would you choose to use my way or mop for sake of initinstance 17:24:59 kenanb: i can look but i'm stuck in a meeting and can't fire up sbcl atm 17:25:08 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-39-4-120.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:25:26 kenanb: as far as versions, maybe have a different class per version of your external class protocol 17:28:18 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-24-163-252.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:28:20 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-21-15.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:45 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:29:53 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-117.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 17:30:09 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-117.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 17:31:20 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:37:31 -!- kenanb [5e36ede3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.54.237.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:37:57 -!- chupish [182c5af4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.44.90.244] has quit [Quit: will be back later] 17:39:22 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-154-86.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:41:44 kpreid, clbot has a sandbox. 17:42:25 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:42:39 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:42:41 espadrine [~thaddee_t@acces2373.res.insa-lyon.fr] has joined #lisp 17:44:27 gigamonkey_ [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-21-15.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:30 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:44:54 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 17:44:55 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-21-15.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:44:55 -!- gigamonkey_ is now known as gigamonkey 17:45:26 -!- Kryztof [~user@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:46:21 achiu [~arthurchi@216.174.109.254] has joined #lisp 17:47:00 kslt1 [~karl.sier@netblock-208-127-156-243.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 17:48:04 benny [~benny@i577A7C83.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:51:05 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:54:53 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 17:56:16 kenanb [5e36ede3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.54.237.227] has joined #lisp 17:57:37 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:58:23 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.111] has joined #lisp 17:59:06 -!- tensorpudding_ is now known as tensorpudding 17:59:40 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:59:55 kmcorbett_ [~kmcorbett@173-166-107-217-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:42 didi [~user@187.122.1.221] has joined #lisp 18:02:50 -!- didi [~user@187.122.1.221] has quit [Changing host] 18:02:50 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 18:04:15 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 18:05:10 -!- icrazyhack [horieyui@115.173.249.104] has quit [Quit: http://www.cnblogs.com/crazyhack] 18:07:06 Ralith [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:04 -!- nha [~prefect@dhcp-15-224.math.tu-berlin.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:08:13 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:08:36 k1o [~k11@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 18:08:54 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-dtzlksjglrrxcesz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:09:37 metaphysician [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 18:09:45 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 18:11:00 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.169.208] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:12:37 Hi Everyone, I'm trying to write a basic webapp: http://paste.lisp.org/display/128498 18:13:45 What is the best way of making get-css 'work' 18:13:55 samebchase: the symbol MESSAGES is not a list 18:14:11 i.oh 18:14:14 oh 18:15:05 somehow (c2mop:class-slots 'foo) errors with no applicable method 18:15:16 what should i use as the argument to class-slots 18:15:44 kenanb: a class instance 18:16:13 Xach: is there no way to query the slots of a class, not the instance? 18:16:40 kenanb: not an instance of the class, an class object, an instance of standard-class 18:16:50 e.g. the return value of (find-class 'foo) 18:17:33 Xach: yep, it worked, you are the man! 18:17:54 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:18:00 Basically, I'm trying to make it look something like this: http://i.imgur.com/6vo9F.png 18:19:00 Is it just me or vectors and fill pointers reminds a heap? 18:19:06 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-133-28.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:22 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:19:38 Maybe it's just me... 18:19:51 In the Lisp for the web II article, the guy uses a function called controller-css 18:19:53 and then 18:20:06 (setf (hunchentoot:content-type* hunchentoot:*reply*) "text/css") 18:20:08 albacker [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:09 -!- albacker [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:20:09 albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #lisp 18:20:33 samebchase: can you make it work with no css? I think you have other, more serious problems. 18:20:53 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 18:21:28 posts-page-fn works 18:21:35 , but that is just the html 18:21:44 I've been able to get that working 18:22:05 Xach: What are the other, serious problems that need to be dealt with? 18:22:41 Oh, I guess (defmacro post (messages) ...) will bind the global variable. 18:23:03 samebchase: it is seriously confusing to have an unadorned special and then try to process it with a macro as if it was a function call. 18:23:26 You would see problems if you had (defvar *messages* ...) and (post *messages*) and (defmacro post (messages) ...) 18:23:56 hmm. So they should be named in a better way... 18:24:19 samebchase: Yes. Also, I would suggest writing them as functions. 18:25:02 The current state: http://i.imgur.com/xUWrP.png 18:25:25 without the css 18:26:01 samebchase: it's not merely the quality of names, the use of the same name for the special and the macro argument hides a confusion that should not be hidden. 18:26:54 -!- kmcorbett_ [~kmcorbett@173-166-107-217-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quit] 18:27:11 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-117.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:27:40 posts-page and post should be functions? 18:28:29 samebchase: Yes. 18:29:28 alright 18:29:58 It's _very_ look alike... I can substitute `length' with `array-total-size' and `heap-size' with `fill-pointer'|`length'. 18:30:10 -!- hefner [~hefner@c-69-255-57-56.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: shorty said I look like the dude from the passion of the christ] 18:30:13 That's very interesting. 18:30:47 samebchase: if you are following closely along with a guide, though, maybe it is better to take guidance from the guide's author. 18:30:47 Kryztof [~user@77-58-246-8.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:30:53 I wonder if this is just a coincidence. 18:31:14 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:31:22 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 18:31:36 if you do enough substitutions you can pass anything as anything 18:31:43 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:31:53 stassats: But this seems like a 1:1. 18:31:54 kmcorbett_ [~kmcorbett@173-166-107-217-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:58 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:32:18 Oh well, Lisp is fun. 18:32:59 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 18:34:49 Xach: hmm. So as a first step in fixing this, you'd suggest me to rewrite the macros as functions? 18:36:23 samebchase: it won't fix your css thing, sorry. but i would find it easier to understand and troubleshoot. changing the special variable to have *earmuffs* is what I'd change first, then functions, then look further. 18:40:38 -!- ngz [~user@22.220.67.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:40:51 Xach: yes. of course. I'll try and fix these issues first. Thanks! 18:41:31 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:41:40 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 18:43:04 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 18:46:04 -!- kmcorbett_ [kmcorbett@clozure-C1AA9842.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 18:46:10 kmcorbett__ [~kmcorbett@173-166-107-217-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:10 -!- kmcorbett_ [~kmcorbett@173-166-107-217-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:49:33 -!- pcavs [~Adium@63.139.127.6] has left #lisp 18:51:05 -!- TheMue [~TheMue@p5DDF79AB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: TheMue] 18:53:41 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:53:48 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 18:54:15 -!- kmcorbett__ [kmcorbett@clozure-C1AA9842.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quit] 18:54:15 -!- kmcorbett__ [~kmcorbett@173-166-107-217-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quit] 18:55:12 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 18:55:25 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:55:36 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:55:37 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:58 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-66-65-55-75.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:57:13 maxm-: What?... I, for one, am anti-codewalking and pro-iterators... It's true that there's traditionally been an overuse of macros for iterators, though... 18:57:27 -!- rvrebane [~rvrebane@valjapaas.vkhk.ee] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:58:09 hydo [~hydo@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:16 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.111] has joined #lisp 19:00:59 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:01:26 As for LET vs LET*, my take: have (bind ((a b) (c d)) e) be equivalent to (let* ((a b) (c d)) e) and (bind (((values a c) (values b d))) e) be equivalent to (let ((a b) (c d)) e) (among other things) I have yet another "almost complete but still unusable and undocumented" project for this and many other features at https://github.com/Hexstream/explicit-bind/ 19:01:32 ynniv [~ynniv@204.9.220.45] has joined #lisp 19:04:55 -!- metaphysician [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Quit: metaphysician] 19:05:25 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:07:20 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 19:07:31 ngz [~user@22.220.67.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:29 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:08:58 -!- kslt1 [~karl.sier@netblock-208-127-156-243.dslextreme.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:11:11 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-21-15.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 19:12:23 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-21-15.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:35 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:14:13 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 19:14:44 -!- snorble_ [~snorble@c193-14-18-68.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:15:03 snorble_ [~snorble@c193-14-18-68.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 19:15:41 -!- snorble_ [~snorble@c193-14-18-68.cust.tele2.se] has left #lisp 19:17:26 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:20:17 -!- bjonnh [~bjonnh@147.210.71.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:20:38 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:22:11 untrusted [~user@stgt-5f719931.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:31 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 19:22:56 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has joined #lisp 19:23:26 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@100.Red-88-11-23.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:25:00 what's an aspect? 19:25:21 albacker: Google aspect-oriented programming... 19:25:51 does lisp allow you aop? 19:26:02 It's a way of combining different concerns together. 19:26:04 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:26:19 albacker: There's a thing called "contextl". 19:27:02 CL allows you to add support for any paradigm fairly easily. 19:27:02 the author of contextl also did aspectl 19:27:18 contextl superseded aspectl, I think. 19:30:38 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:30:58 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:32:36 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 19:35:47 Hexstream: by "anti-iterators" I meant people disliking the "iterate" package/system, not the concept of iterators in the same sense as java or python "sequence producing" thing 19:36:01 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:36:09 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@100.Red-88-11-23.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:10 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-240-200-151.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:10 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-240-200-151.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:36:11 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 19:36:23 maxm-: I dislike everything LOOP-like, including ITERATE. ;P 19:36:25 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:36:45 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 19:37:06 -!- gkeith_lt [georgekeit@nat/google/x-ibgzyccuyomyrbev] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:37:37 Sometimes I feel like Lisp has encouraged me to become sloppy. I'm so used to being able to test things as I code that when I no longer have that ability I seem to just hit the keyboard randomly and hope brilliant code comes out when I test it in a few hours. 19:38:52 *maxm-* found that thinking first, then coding, helps. Although hard to apply 19:39:07 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:39:19 *Ralith* finds development without a REPL to be supremely frustrating 19:39:22 gkeith_lt [georgekeit@nat/google/x-ibnemvcyzeqaamyx] has joined #lisp 19:39:28 thinking first is unnecessary. I'm a Lisper. 19:39:30 but I don't think I'm any less efficient at it than I was before I picked up CL. 19:39:36 just more aware of what I' missing. 19:39:37 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-386989.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 19:39:39 what I'm 19:39:46 ..except when i have to code in erlang/python/etc, I guess :) 19:40:21 It often takes less time to make a shitty solution and then the correct solution than making the correct solution in the first place. 19:40:38 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 19:41:12 sykopomp: you have time to think about things which are more important 19:41:15 more time 19:41:36 in lisp? Yeah. 19:41:39 reminds of my favorite moment in color commentary history (losely translated from ukrainan): : lukyanenko powers on on a right flank! moves past one, no two defenders! what a move!! hard hard kick! Go..." : well lukyanenko always strikes hard.. sometimes on tanget 19:41:59 s/tanget/target/ 19:42:40 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:05 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:44:09 Hexstream: Robert Rodriguez has a long anecdote about that in the commentary track of Spy Kids 2. 19:45:37 It's from the book Art & Fear about a pottery course separated into two groups: one group would take most of their final grade from a single project and they had all semester to do it, the other group had to make one project per week. The latter group started out making terrible stuff but quickly improved and far surpassed the former group. 19:46:24 *Xach* should get the book, since he's only heard the anecdote third-hand through a DVD commentary track 19:46:27 Right, that's what I'd expect. 19:49:21 there should be some kind of twitter hashtag "deep thoughts for coders" or this kind of stuff 19:50:17 *maxm-* recently watched quite an interesting literally only 5 minutes ted talk, that kind of made him think a lot, but could not come up hashtag to retweet with 19:50:20 maxm-: I'd expect that most of it would be shit, with a few genuine insights here and there... And the real insights would look like shit to most. 19:51:10 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-149-198.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:34 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 19:54:04 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:54:14 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-133-28.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:55:46 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 19:56:17 MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-149-198.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:23 Am I ever glad that CL has TAGBODY! I'm planning to do some fairly low-level compilers (for DSL's), and TAGBODY seems a sweet-spot target, just above machine-code but below the usual high-levelness of "normal" lisp code. 19:56:25 Then I can do my own optimizations, and when I hand (compile nil '(lambda () (tagbody ...))) to various implementations, they should produce fairly similar code, I think. 19:58:33 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 19:59:38 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-149-198.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:59:40 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0ED3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:00:45 keltvek [~keltvek@89-212-113-105.static.t-2.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:05 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:02:10 you could always use continuation passing style instead 20:02:12 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:02:19 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:33 Is it possible to define an alias? For example, for my application, `heap-size' is a more descriptive name than `fill-pointer' but, beside that, I would like to threat `heap-size' just like `fill-pointer', so I could do something like `(setf (heap-size array) 42)'. 20:02:44 Isn't that a bad idea without garanteed TCO?... 20:03:09 s/threat/treat 20:03:20 didi: no, you can't define aliases 20:03:26 FreeArtMan [~fam@213.175.106.101] has joined #lisp 20:03:28 but you can define functions 20:04:25 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.111] has joined #lisp 20:04:30 stassats: Hum. `(defun heap-size (array) (fill-pointer array))' doesn't let me `setf' it. So I guess I need to do some `setf' work. 20:04:37 if you want a modicum of performance, define your own structure which would store data in a simple-vector 20:05:06 didi: you need to define (setf heap-size) too, naturally 20:05:27 -!- hydo [~hydo@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:05:28 (defun (setf heap-size) ...) 20:05:41 oic 20:05:51 The first argument to the function is the new value, which you must return. 20:06:27 should, not must 20:07:18 Hum. I think it's must. Or at least, it's very bad style not to return it, as it's something one would reasonably expect, and there usually isn't a good reason to do otherwise. 20:07:57 "must" implies it would be non-conforming otherwise 20:08:01 but it won't be non-conforming 20:08:05 It's part of the contract of setf storing forms to return the new values... (in the case of a setf function it's always 1 new value) 20:09:10 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:09:59 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:10:04 stassats: From l1sp.org/cl/5.1.1.2: "Storing form: a form which can reference both the temporary and the store variables, and which changes the value of the place and guarantees to return as its values the values of the store variables, which are the correct values for setf to return." 20:11:28 BBShortcut [~user@mar92-5-82-225-147-167.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:55 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 20:12:53 If setf functions were allowed to return a value other than the new value, then (setf (foo bar) baz) wouldn't always return baz, which would be very annoying indeed. Or the implementation would have to wrap all setf functions with code to ignore any returned values and return the new value... 20:13:56 that sounds more like a description of define-setf-expander 20:15:26 Well, more like a description of GET-SETF-EXPANSION. Which also applies to (setf (my-function foo) bar). 20:15:59 osa1 [~sinan@31.140.78.207] has joined #lisp 20:16:19 (nth-value 3 (get-setf-expansion '(setf (my-function foo) bar))) => (FUNCALL #'(SETF LET*) #:NEW873 #:TMP875 #:TMP874) 20:17:10 (Uh, wait. #'(SETF LET*)?? What?) 20:18:35 Oops, (nth-value 3 (get-setf-expansion '(my-function foo))) => (FUNCALL #'(SETF MY-FUNCTION) #:NEW902 #:TMP903) 20:18:47 SBCL should have screamed at me pretty hard there. 20:18:59 why is that? 20:19:21 stassats: Because this GIGO could have been avoided easily... 20:19:47 if you write (setf (my-function) 10), you'll get your error 20:20:12 and from reading 5.1.2.2, it appears that get-setf-expansion may not be called always 20:21:11 e.g., (macroexpand '(setf (cdr x) 10)) => (SB-KERNEL:%RPLACD X 10) 20:22:26 -!- untrusted [~user@stgt-5f719931.pool.mediaWays.net] has left #lisp 20:22:29 elrzn [~elrzn@140.218.217.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:23:38 alright, busted, 5.1.2.9 gives the definitive answer 20:23:49 "A function named (setf f) must return its first argument as its only value in order to preserve the semantics of setf." 20:23:54 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-72-163.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 20:24:06 yay 20:24:22 that only applies to functions named f, though. 20:24:27 err (setf f) 20:24:36 what about other setf functions? 20:24:48 sykopomp: "any other compound form for which the operator is a symbol f" 20:24:56 All this time wasted inferring the correct answer from logic when it was just written explicitly! Shame! 20:24:59 your tricks don't work! 20:25:24 damn! 20:25:30 *Hexstream* wants an annotatable hyperspec! 20:25:31 Hexstream: logic doesn't come to play when using specifications 20:25:33 can I still have prog2 return the first value? 20:25:49 sykopomp: half of the time, yes 20:25:57 why half? 20:26:06 sykopomp: because it's specified so 20:26:10 stassats: In the absence of contradictory information, it does. 20:26:31 Hexstream: no, what's not disallowed is allowed 20:26:35 -!- elrzn [~elrzn@140.218.217.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Client Quit] 20:26:48 Oh. Yes. 20:26:53 Or maybe you want to submit a bug report to all implementations because they "incorrectly" return the primary of the second form of PROG2 rather than the first form's. 20:26:55 still, you can perfectly safely return whatever you from SETF functions 20:27:03 I hadn't noticed result-2 before! 20:27:16 it says you "must" in order to preserve semantics, not to be a conforming program 20:27:26 so you may disregard any semantics-shemantics 20:27:44 antonv [5d7d31e8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.232] has joined #lisp 20:28:11 -!- xan_ [~xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:30:43 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:32:30 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:32:40 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:33:18 stassats: The "in order to preserve the semantics of setf" part of "A function named (setf f) must return its first argument as its only value in order to preserve the semantics of setf." is just a convenient explanation of the "why?" of "A function named (setf f) must return its first argument as its only value". So that people don't have to infer this from first principles like I did. 20:34:02 what if you pursue another order? 20:34:22 Then it's not CL anymore. 20:34:38 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:35:08 Arbamisto [~christoph@192.188.108.71] has joined #lisp 20:35:13 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 20:35:22 logically, i see no contradiction 20:35:35 yes, you may not do INCF on it, or whatnot 20:35:56 but they may be legitimate reasons to return something else 20:36:01 there 20:36:39 Sure. Like canonicalization, perhaps. But despite the temptation, you shouldn't do it if you want to be CL-conforming. 20:37:16 this passes the requirement for conformity to me 20:37:30 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-146-5.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:45 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-149-198.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:39:44 That doesn't seem to pass the "must return its first argument" test. Maybe you want to argue that the spec should have specified something else to allow canonicalization and such, that's fine. But per the letter of the standard, it's "must return its first argument", period. Not some canonicalized or "semantically equivalent" value. 20:39:57 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:40:14 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 20:40:21 i've said all i had to say 20:40:39 So have I. 20:41:02 will return something else when the first opportunity arises 20:41:03 killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has joined #lisp 20:41:18 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:41:39 Will steadfastly open a conformity bug report when the first opportunity arises. 20:42:29 -!- wbooze_ [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-154-86.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: qicr for android: faster and better] 20:42:38 will ignore filibusters in my bug-trackers! 20:43:12 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl22-74-137.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 20:43:17 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 20:44:56 impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442544.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 20:44:57 -!- impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442544.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 20:45:54 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-146-5.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:40 HG` [~HG@dsbg-4db5baee.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:42 Speaking of `infc', defining `(setf ..)' also allows me to use it. Nice. 20:47:18 didi: ... What? 20:47:19 actually, incf doesn't need setf returning the value 20:47:43 Hexstream: `(defun (setf ...) ...)' 20:48:01 stassats: I see. 20:48:19 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:48:38 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-146-5.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:49:52 didi: Well, sure. SETF and INCF and such all use the same mechanism: GET-SETF-EXPANSION. (Plus potential implementation-dependent optimizations you don't need to think about.) 20:53:11 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:54:21 hydo [~hydo@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:16 -!- kenanb [5e36ede3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.54.237.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:56:34 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-246-160.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:22 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-154-86.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:59:25 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-146-5.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:59:32 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 21:00:34 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-107-102.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:03:06 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:04:11 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:04:20 stassats: Earlier you talked about performance penalties for using structs. Is it true? 21:04:30 cafesofie [~user@ool-18e4c9a0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:38 kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-120-102.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 21:05:19 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-68-41-30-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 21:05:42 _penalty_? 21:06:07 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:06:15 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl22-74-137.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 21:06:27 oGMo: I don't know... 21:08:30 perhaps a developer performance penalty when you want to modify them ;) 21:08:38 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:40 I can demand that a vector has to have certain characteristics before one calls a certain procedure (like having a fill-pointer) or any vector is fair game, but I have to decorate it with some data because I will use them during computation, like `(defstruct heap (vector fake-fill-pointer))'. 21:13:19 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-33-22.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:14:56 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-132-226.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:07 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@1x-193.157.225.59.uio.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:15:34 -!- Ralith [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:16:14 str8 [~str8@71-217-18-182.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:09 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:17:20 Ralith [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:03 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-246-160.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:18:05 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-24.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:18:48 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 21:21:31 -!- ngz [~user@22.220.67.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:23:15 -!- str8 [~str8@71-217-18-182.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:24:39 p_l: nice discussion with ingo :) 21:26:40 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.152.247] has joined #lisp 21:33:11 -!- CrazyEddy [~overlift@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:33:41 -!- HG` [~HG@dsbg-4db5baee.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:34:00 flipout [~user@75-175-113-13.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:36 Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.97.134] has joined #lisp 21:35:02 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:35:03 -!- osa1 [~sinan@31.140.78.207] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:35:39 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:37:39 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 21:38:41 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@213.175.106.101] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:40:42 nostrand [adfab250@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.250.178.80] has joined #lisp 21:41:38 -!- nostrand [adfab250@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.250.178.80] has quit [Client Quit] 21:41:53 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0ED3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:47:28 daniel__1 [~daniel@p5082A2D1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:28 CrazyEddy [~skatist@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 21:50:06 -!- daniel__2 [~daniel@p5B326F5F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:50:47 -!- hydo [~hydo@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: hydo] 21:53:28 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:59 nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:07 -!- Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.97.134] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:57:42 inkel [~inkel@host64.186-124-8.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 21:57:52 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-33-22.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:59:15 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.152.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:59:52 -!- ghuntley [~ghuntley@14-200-9-232.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:03:44 francogrex [~user@109.130.116.77] has joined #lisp 22:04:10 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:33 you have 10 min to complete this task: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Calendar go! 22:06:15 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:06:21 (format t "~c" (date)) 22:07:53 tomodo: very poor 22:08:38 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:10:07 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:10:25 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 22:11:21 Mococa [~Mococa@189.59.214.237] has joined #lisp 22:13:08 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:56 -!- nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:14:11 MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-119-14.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:46 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.59.214.237] has quit [Client Quit] 22:14:59 m4dnificent [~madnifice@static.146.73.9.176.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 22:16:06 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:06 -!- simon_weber [u4119@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rphxajmgacegzybk] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:17:25 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-132-226.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:17:34 -!- literal [hinrik@w.nix.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:18:00 you all lost 22:18:09 literal [hinrik@w.nix.is] has joined #lisp 22:19:19 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:19:19 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@static.146.73.9.176.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:19:43 francogr` [~user@109.130.116.77] has joined #lisp 22:20:11 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:20:15 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.116.77] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:20:24 -!- francogr` is now known as francogrex 22:22:34 I'm looking for a stable, maintained and lispy gui library for cl that works on sbcl. What would you recommend? 22:23:24 ? this seems like a very random request 22:23:55 I'm looking for something round and red 22:24:08 sepi: hunchentoot+cl-who seems like a winning combination. 22:25:45 sykopomp: hehe, that's also an idea. But I'd rather use a native toolkit 22:26:12 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:31 francogrex: yeah, that's true. There are so many gtk bindings for example and I would rather not want to try them all... 22:26:35 sepi: I don't know if there's anything that's both stable and maintained. I hear a lot of buzz about Qt, though. 22:26:47 sykopomp: commonqt? 22:26:52 that guy 22:26:56 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@100.Red-88-11-23.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 22:27:25 sykopomp: yeah, I was already thinking about trying it out. 22:31:02 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:32:13 -!- antonv [5d7d31e8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.232] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:36:33 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:36 does anyone have experience with the gtk bindings? there is cells-gtk, cl-gtk2, lambda-gtk etc. 22:38:12 scombinator [~user@203.171.40.170] has joined #lisp 22:38:17 ,sup 22:38:56 sepi: I've used cl-gtk2. It is nice. 22:39:20 didi: Is it REPL-able? 22:39:51 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:40:03 -!- flipout [~user@75-175-113-13.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:40:10 scombinator: It is. 22:40:27 -!- milanj [~milanj_@212-200-192-196.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:41:09 scombinator: I don't remember it being so REPL-able as, for example, racket's gui though. 22:42:40 hmm, I somehow like cells but cells-gtk does not seem to be very active anymore 22:43:19 *maxm-* coughs.. ahem there is one other gui tookling you may be overlooking.. Its quite common 22:43:29 -!- workflow [~workflow@178-83-8-30.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:43:38 maxm-: Tell us, tell us! (seriously) 22:43:58 pkhuong: ping 22:44:12 its invented by crazy swedes, popularized by germans, and bought by a phone company that lost its way 22:44:25 If you say 'tk' or 'qt' I get to feast on your corpse 22:45:36 *maxm-* exhausted his altruism impulse by getting horse's attention and pointing to the river several times 22:45:40 scombinator: that's not a nice thing to say 22:45:52 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:46:01 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-146-40.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:05 Neither is suggesting the use of either of them 22:46:20 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:10 QT requires it's own arcane compilers and XML, and Tk requires all commands be interpreted as tcl. 22:47:22 (eventually) 22:47:23 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 22:48:37 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-119-14.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:48:46 Recently I've toyed with using a FFI to make a GUI application but I didn't find it fun _at_ _all_. 22:50:36 Even though CFFI's documentation is _really_ good, interfacing with an alien environment was not fun to me. 22:51:07 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:51:20 Of course, that's why people use GTK, if you're going to interface with an alien environment, make it C 22:51:37 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:23 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.116.77] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:54:58 scombinator: It was what I tried. I even made hash tables to register for events. But again, not fun. 22:55:28 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d01283d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:55:50 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:56:42 It's probably because I'm still too new to the game, but I haven't find yet a gui library to use. That's why I'm so eager to hear maxm-'s gui tookit. 22:57:44 dotemacs [u801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-suxfvflabwmdybjc] has joined #lisp 22:58:26 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.104.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:59:52 didi: just google "common lisp qt" man, its not like its a huge secret people trying to keep away from you 23:00:40 maxm-: I didn't think they were. 23:01:17 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:38 rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 23:02:38 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 23:03:21 -!- m4dnificent is now known as madnificent 23:04:19 -!- Kreol[UKR] [~quassel@85.198.173.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:05:24 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-15-182.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:05:33 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:07:31 MrBusiness [~MrBusines@184.99.7.19] has joined #lisp 23:07:32 add^_ [~add^_^@m90-141-50-101.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 23:07:34 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m90-141-50-101.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:07:51 ghuntley [~ghuntley@CPE-60-225-85-11.hhui2.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 23:08:10 -!- srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0.2/20120215223356]] 23:10:20 -!- albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:10:42 srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 23:10:45 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:08 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:15:40 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:37 puddingpimp [~dave@118-92-19-167.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:19:44 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:21:32 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-115-197.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:43 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-146-40.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:25:14 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-154-86.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:25:18 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:24 MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-124-93.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:02 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.111] has joined #lisp 23:29:31 -!- Sbidicuda [~antani@host249-171-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:29:40 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:30:39 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-115-197.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:33:48 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.159.184] has joined #lisp 23:34:11 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-154-86.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:34:23 -!- Kvaks [~kvaks@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:35:06 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:08 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:39:11 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 23:40:09 dabd [~dabd@a79-169-214-13.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 23:42:26 antonv [5d7d31e8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.232] has joined #lisp 23:45:11 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:47 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-386989.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:46:36 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:47:18 -!- achiu [~arthurchi@216.174.109.254] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 23:47:40 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-107-035-184.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:49:26 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:49:45 I've got a library that loads fine on OSS lisps, but causes both LW and Allegro to blow up their stack. I think it's a conspiracy. 23:51:21 which one ? 23:51:41 fe[nl]ix: My Quid Pro Quo design-by-contract lib. 23:53:07 I don't get a nice stack overflow or anything, either. Both just crash. 23:53:11 sellout: link for the design-by-contract library? 23:53:29 madnificent: https://github.com/sellout/quid-pro-quo/ 23:53:31 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:53:36 sellout, i can test here on LW5.1/Windows 23:54:52 sellout: i wanted to write cl-lawyer for that. it's been in my head for a couple of years now. thanks! 23:55:22 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:23 clawyer 23:55:38 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.159.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:55:39 with a lobster as a logo 23:55:45 in a suit 23:55:50 Qworkescence: Yeah, I'd appreciate it  any error message you get would be great. 23:55:56 sellout, how should I test? 23:56:00 defending contracts with claws 23:56:07 Quadrescence: (asdf:test-system :quid-pro-quo) 23:57:18 depends on method-comb-utils, i think sellout is promoting vendor lockin (where the vendor is sellout) 23:57:47 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.111] has joined #lisp 23:57:50 Qworkescence: Oh right, I forgot  that's a recent dependency. Hopefully both libs will be in the next release of QL. 23:58:27 -!- ynniv [~ynniv@204.9.220.45] has quit [Quit: ynniv] 23:58:33 The utils lib is part of my in-progress series of posts on using/creating method combinations. 23:59:35 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:59:51 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-148-241.as43234.net] has joined #lisp