00:00:36 -!- francogrex [~francogre@109.130.139.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:01:06 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A4C18.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:04:33 Farzad: you can do it with the mop indeed. you can specialize on (setf slot-value-using-class). you could use an eql specializer on the class, i think. however, you'll likely want to define a metaclass and use that. 00:05:45 urandom__ [~user@p548A42EF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:08 -!- dto [~user@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:08:00 Farzad: defining a metaclass isn't at all that complex. https://github.com/madnificent/cl-validations/blob/master/validations.lisp contains an example. you could remove some cruft of that what you don't need. you do need to add a definition for slot-value-using-class though. 00:08:06 Farzad: also: what are you trying to do exactly? 00:08:44 Farzad: Looking back, just having a setf :after method for each writer could work nicely for you, depending. Especially for a simple scenario. 00:10:10 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-161-170.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:10:18 -!- wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-161-170.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:12:52 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-161-170.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:13:49 -!- gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:15:22 gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has joined #lisp 00:17:55 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA011C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:21:54 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:22:15 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-161-170.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:22:24 Hexstream, madnificent: sry was totally afk reading... 00:22:52 -!- MrBusiness [~MrBusines@184.99.7.19] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:23:47 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@69.212.127.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:23:53 Farzad: I don't know what you're sorry about... 00:23:59 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.120.30] has joined #lisp 00:24:08 Hexstream: for not responding 00:24:45 We weren't impatiently awaiting your urgent reply. Take it easy. 00:24:56 Hexstream: setf :after wont work, there will be alot of subclasses with different slots 00:28:32 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:29:08 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 00:29:45 Farzad: Understood. The MOP indeed seems suited. But it will get some amount of effort understanding it, and if you're into a "I'm just trying to solve this immediate problem right now, I don't actually think I need a real understanding of how things work" mindset, things can get pretty frustrating quickly... So take your time. 00:30:51 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.16] has joined #lisp 00:37:03 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.54.87] has joined #lisp 00:39:57 agumonkey [agumonkey@143.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:45 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.120.30] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:41:02 Hexstream: no, i actually want to learn lisp deeply, i have finally found some language that satisfies me, after coming all the way from qbasic to c#... 00:42:16 Farzad: Welcome and enjoy your stay! 00:42:37 Hexstream: thanks :) 00:43:48 zulu_inuoe [~zulu_inuo@c-174-58-204-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:06 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.200.176] has joined #lisp 00:45:27 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.163.68] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:48:16 -!- nepnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 00:50:56 wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:52:33 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:52:34 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:52:37 Farzad: if you're going to toy with the mop, keep me posted :) 00:57:23 madnificent: sure 00:57:50 KDr2 [~kdr2@125.34.44.120] has joined #lisp 00:58:19 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 00:58:34 LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-8-26.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:41 BixSqrl [~Bix@c-50-131-212-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:20 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:04:25 -!- kai___ [~kai@e179021093.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:09:39 _schulte_ [~eschulte@ip98-169-80-239.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:09:57 kai_ [~kai@e177089014.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 01:10:25 wuj [~wuj@207-237-2-224.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 01:16:09 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c122-106-158-42.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 01:18:56 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c122-106-158-42.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:20:02 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0.2/20120215223356]] 01:23:32 Frost__ [~Frost@adsl-99-24-248-125.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:30 springz [~springz@216.24.205.54] has joined #lisp 01:25:31 dekuked [~user@pool-108-7-203-109.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:20 does anyone do literate programming in common lisp? would anyone recommend anything specifically? 01:26:26 -!- tensorpudding__ is now known as tensorpudding 01:27:17 -!- agumonkey [agumonkey@143.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:27:25 dekuked: I don't think this approach is really used/supported in CL (in any way). 01:27:31 hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584440.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:28:04 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:28:44 kanru` [~user@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 01:29:59 Some would say that CL is self-documenting enough that you don't need extensive code comments (or code comments at all, except in special circumstances). Personally, what I find lacking in user documentation. I find code comments to mostly just get in the way... 01:30:06 is* 01:31:24 -!- z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:31:35 literate programming: talk to Tim Daly (Axiom) or Alex Plotnick (CLWEB) 01:32:45 -!- KognizantKog [~Kognizant@72.168.55.98] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Wibbly Wobbly IRC] 01:32:49 is this the axiom you are talking about?: http://www.cl-user.net/asp/cbkp/sdataQ055-G70MISgDQ3IOypX8yBX8yBXnMq=/sdataQu3F$sSHnB== 01:33:06 z0d [~z0d@ns.htcc.hu] has joined #lisp 01:33:06 -!- z0d [~z0d@ns.htcc.hu] has quit [Changing host] 01:33:06 z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 01:33:29 xinming [~hyy@113.206.15.180] has joined #lisp 01:34:26 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 01:34:28 the Axiom that Tim Daly develops. a computer algebra program 01:34:49 -!- Frost__ [~Frost@adsl-99-24-248-125.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:34:49 The whole thing is a big literate program (more or less) 01:38:20 what about this?: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-org-mode/ 01:39:39 except it looks like it separates the code/documentation, so it's not really literate programming 01:40:42 -!- justicefries [justicefri@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fedf:e325] has left #lisp 01:41:07 I would email Alex and see what he recommends 01:43:28 dekuked: i do 01:43:39 it's weird that the github project for clweb looks relatively maintained (edits < month ago) but it's not on quicklisp 01:43:52 nobody asked 01:43:56 i don't know every project! 01:43:59 madnificent: you use literate programming? what do you recommend? 01:45:00 dekuked: i use org-mode for it. check out http://github.com/madnificent/is-right for an example. be sure to download it though, github doesn't render the org document correctly. we use it for javascript in the same way. 01:45:27 Xach: oh no I didn't mean to imply that, I thought maybe he was doing a rewrite and didn't want to submit it on purpose or something 01:46:00 dekuked: oh, it doesn't build with asdf. 01:46:07 so, no clweb in ql 01:47:16 dekuked: if you have issues or questions about literate programming, feel free to pm 01:49:13 okay, well thank you guys very much, this information has been very helpful 02:01:55 -!- theconartist [~tca@thewired.me] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:02:34 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 02:03:08 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.172.46] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:03:19 -!- kai_ [~kai@e177089014.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:03:56 theconartist [~tca@thewired.me] has joined #lisp 02:05:35 -!- dekuked [~user@pool-108-7-203-109.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:06:59 *hefner* should look at buildapp to see how it solves the quicklisp problem 02:07:57 *hefner* does this. 02:08:46 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c122-106-158-42.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:08:49 works togethe 02:08:50 r 02:08:51 kai_ [~kai@f052100214.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 02:10:13 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 02:10:16 the manifest bits 02:18:10 interesting. 02:19:14 quazimodo [~quazimodo@CPE-58-173-70-192.cwqh3.cht.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 02:19:57 Kron [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has joined #lisp 02:20:14 -!- tkellen [~tkellen@68.169.219.4] has quit [Quit: tkellen] 02:21:20 tkellen [~tkellen@68.169.219.4] has joined #lisp 02:21:48 it's not as smooth as i'd like 02:22:11 i have some stuff where it loads the target system once just to make sure the prerequisites are loaded for the second time around 02:22:55 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:24:25 *Sgeo* notes UABCL 02:24:36 Anyone have any experience with UABCL? 02:24:47 What is UABCL? 02:24:56 Something like ABCL for .NET instead of Java 02:26:07 tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.172.46] has joined #lisp 02:26:59 Uh 02:27:05 This code looks highly like Java 02:27:50 -!- kanru` [~user@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:28:01 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.184.114] has quit [Quit: rme] 02:28:54 kanru` [~user@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:29:13 -!- DataLinkDroid [~David@1.130.200.28] has quit [Quit: Bye] 02:31:21 i did UABCL 02:31:57 its written in java but post compiled with IKVM 02:32:12 Ah 02:32:16 -!- kanru` [~user@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:32:21 i needed a lisp for .net for one of my projects 02:32:47 i ported ABCL in 2007 to C# once it was cool.. but doesnt perform any better than UABCL 02:33:14 There's a thing called Grandroids, and it will accept plugins written in .NET, I think, hence my interest. 02:33:19 Future tense though 02:33:41 How good/bad is interoperability? 02:33:53 what i did was got ABCL runinng on sun java 1.3.. then got it runing in J# then ran the JCLA on it 02:34:09 JCLA J#->C# 02:34:34 truthfully i like the interop of UABCL better 02:35:11 since ABCL likes to produce .class fiules.. and therefore recompile again on IKVM 02:35:50 Is there any documentation about it though that I can read? 02:36:58 kanru` [~user@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:41 *dmiles_afk* looks up Grandroids 02:38:12 oh for UABCL.. i am sorry not really any docs ;( 02:38:29 oh oh but i do have some code examples.. 02:39:29 http://code.google.com/p/opensim4opencog/source/browse/trunk/sources/main/MushDLR223/ScriptEngines/ABCLInterpreter.cs 02:40:12 How about other direction, using .NET objects from CL? 02:40:21 Writing code in CL to interop with .NET 02:40:42 Why not use an rpc bridge? 02:41:10 I assume not particularly like RDNZPL? 02:41:11 i uses it the JLinker way that ABCL uses Java code but i use the IKVM interface 02:41:49 Because I think that we'd end up providing DLLs for the main program to run 02:41:56 (jcall 'cli.System.Console 'WriteLine "helloo") 02:42:13 Hmm 02:42:28 (jstatic 'cli.System.Console.Out 'WriteLine "helloo") 02:42:45 added cli.AnyDotNet class 02:42:59 add cli. to AnyDotNet class 02:43:05 -!- Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.116.191] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:43:55 http://www.franz.com/support/documentation/8.2/doc/jlinker.htm 02:44:23 is the jlinker API spec ABCL follows 02:44:47 UABCL follows the same.. but adds to it the .net classes with classname prefeix of cli. 02:45:23 Hmm 02:45:56 Java doesn't have lambdas (maybe new versions do). Will UABCL work with passing and/or receiving functions? 02:47:02 sort of has them by impl a interface in lisp 02:47:13 or implmenting interface in any language 02:47:25 for example impl Runnable 02:47:41 ( a now argumnet void method) 02:47:46 ( a no argumnet void method) 02:48:18 in java you do it by a anomous class 02:48:50 an exmaple is how you pass a Comparator to a Sorting function 02:49:09 C# it looks feels a little smoother 02:49:48 in Lisp you impl an interface like a cli.System.ICOmpater or a java.util.Comparitor 02:49:50 Right, but how smooth will it be in ABCL/UABCL? In ABCL, would I have to make the Runnable instance myself? In UABCL, would that necessity carry over despite not needing to deal with that in C#? 02:50:16 in Lisp you impl an interface like a cli.System.IComparater or a java.util.Comparitor 02:50:40 well you use a JPRoxy 02:50:44 rme [~rme@50.43.184.114] has joined #lisp 02:51:22 an ABCL JProxy which is a lisp object bound to lisp code place on a java.lang.Proxy 02:54:11 -!- kai_ [~kai@f052100214.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 02:54:36 the Runnable instance ia JProxy 02:54:45 ia/is a 02:54:58 zulu_inuoe_ [~zulu_inuo@c-174-58-204-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:30 but secretly i found its easier to impl in C# (for java .. yes).. and then from C# make the call into Lisp 02:56:10 that .cs file i linked is full of that kind of stuff 02:57:03 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 02:57:26 also back to jlink/rpc stuff.. that jlinbkler doc is applicable .. just none of the RPC stuiff in that doc is required 02:57:45 -!- LiamH 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kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-mdrlygcafwkmsbpf] has quit [Changing host] 04:25:36 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 04:33:58 is there a way to look at the direct superclasses of a class? 04:36:11 mop:class-direct-superclasses; sb-mop on SBCL. 04:36:22 awesome, thanks 04:45:00 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:51:19 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:51:49 asvil` [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 05:08:33 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-dadpemlfxgwyurqs] has joined #lisp 05:21:34 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:24:39 -!- fractal_heart [~mzhang@adsl-71-146-136-146.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:25:18 stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.149.138] has joined #lisp 05:28:43 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-dadpemlfxgwyurqs] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:32:25 dto 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closed] 06:03:21 -!- Sgeo is now known as Lindrum 06:04:35 -!- zulu_inuoe_ [~zulu_inuo@c-174-58-204-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:06:43 -!- drysdam [~dr@pool-70-109-152-107.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:06:59 drysdam [~dr@pool-70-16-207-162.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 06:08:41 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:09:20 justicefries [justicefri@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fedf:e325] has joined #lisp 06:15:36 -!- Kevinneyc [~Kevin@59.46.94.100] has left #lisp 06:16:43 -!- rvrebane [~rvrebane@valjapaas.vkhk.ee] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:17:02 dryman [~dryman@OpenISDM.iis.sinica.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 06:21:55 -!- dryman [~dryman@OpenISDM.iis.sinica.edu.tw] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:22:29 linux users - who's using linux from command line, and who's using it in the GTK GUI? 06:22:58 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@CPE-58-173-70-192.cwqh3.cht.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:23:58 -!- Lindrum is now known as Sgeo 06:29:11 *print-readably* can be somewhat annoying when messing around. Error messages raise error messages because they can't print the condition readably. 06:33:51 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-161-170.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:33:53 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-161-170.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:34:54 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-152-46.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:35:11 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-152-46.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:35:25 wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 06:35:29 print-readably is generally a bad idea. :) 06:35:51 Since printing things readably doesn't preserve identities in the general case. 06:36:31 This is one area where NewLisp actually wins. 06:37:08 (Each object having exactly one name) 06:37:55 -!- dto [~user@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:38:50 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.35.135] has joined #lisp 06:40:08 justicefries: lisp or in general? 06:40:28 both. doing lisp and clojure. 06:40:28 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:40:33 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 06:43:01 for lisp, i use emacs/slime, both "gui" and command line (under screen). 06:43:10 general setup is stumpwm, emacs and surf for browsing 06:43:14 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 06:43:57 is there something I need to pass to get it into the command line? 06:44:00 it's defaulting to GTK 06:44:08 emacs -nw (for no-window) 06:44:21 perfect 06:46:00 alternatively, export DISPLAY= or something to similar effect, unsetting DISPLAY 06:46:17 -!- tkellen [~tkellen@68.169.219.4] has quit [Quit: tkellen] 06:47:35 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Client Quit] 06:49:14 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:55:43 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 07:00:31 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.200.176] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 07:01:41 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:03:09 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 07:12:26 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:16:19 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:19:58 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 07:19:59 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 07:19:59 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 07:20:31 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-122-247.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:20:54 BountyX [~andrew@d118-75-26-80.nap.wideopenwest.com] has joined #lisp 07:21:28 -!- pspace [~andrew@d118-75-26-80.nap.wideopenwest.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:30:01 -!- impulse32 [~impulse@65.92.153.91] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:31:07 justicefries: you should use emacsclient, especially if you're working on the commandline. 07:31:28 i'm coming over from vim, so. 07:31:47 exactly. 07:32:22 using emacsclient lets you drop in and out of the editor easily and rapidly, from multiple terminals and even the GUI, without needing to wait for startup or even lose state. 07:32:29 aah 07:35:08 -!- KDr2 [~kdr2@125.34.44.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:35:32 -!- BixSqrl [~Bix@c-50-131-212-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:35:41 KDr2 [~kdr2@125.34.44.120] has joined #lisp 07:37:40 BixSqrl [~Bix@c-50-131-212-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:38:30 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.35.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:39:50 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:41:07 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-152-46.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:41:45 cbp`` [~user@187.208.0.7] has joined #lisp 07:41:50 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-152-46.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 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[~kennyd@93-138-253-131.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:11:26 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.149.138] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 08:15:18 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 08:16:35 good morning 08:17:10 kilon [~user@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 08:18:17 hi ! 08:19:52 [6502] [58959a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.154.87] has joined #lisp 08:19:56 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 08:20:09 rpgsimmaster [~rpgsimmas@system00.packetstability.com] has joined #lisp 08:20:59 <[6502]> hello... why does emacs indent a (let ...) for differently when used inside ,@(let ...) ? What can I do to fix it? 08:21:08 <[6502]> for=form 08:21:16 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 08:23:53 You might want to look at the slime-indentation contrib: http://random-state.net/log/3516613715.html 08:24:01 asdfhjkl [~bob@i5E879AE1.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:24:43 Kvaks [~kvaks@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 08:32:18 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.137.26.211] has joined #lisp 08:36:40 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-253-131.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 08:37:31 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.69] has joined #lisp 08:39:03 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@73.Red-79-156-52.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 08:40:05 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:41:03 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 08:43:33 *Sgeo* tries something stupi 08:43:35 stipdi 08:43:37 stupid 08:43:59 And it doesn't work, because SBCL. 08:44:06 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 08:44:20 It won't accept the poison I give it. 08:44:24 how can I see documentation of a package? I mean the :documentation slot of defpackage 08:44:44 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-253-131.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:44:55 ccl doesn't do it either >.> 08:46:22 Actually, it doesn't do what I was expecting it to 08:46:42 I made an empty package and switched to it, but I still have access to all the functions in cl by cl:blah 08:47:37 Sgeo: yes. what is the problem with that? 08:47:40 treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp 08:47:42 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:47:56 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 08:47:58 H4ns, I'm just messing around to make the session unusable, or trying to 08:48:24 Renamed :cl to a gensym 08:48:29 Now I'm stuck, I think. 08:48:31 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:48:43 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@176.97.27.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:49:02 sorry I lost my connection, have anyone aswered my question? [02:44] how can I see documentation of a package? I mean the :documentation slot of defpackage 08:49:48 osa1: cl:documentation does that 08:50:10 osa1: i.e. (documentation 'directory 'function) 08:50:57 osa1: there also exists (setf (documentation ...) ...) which is useful to attach docstrings to symbols out of line. 08:50:59 H4ns: strange, it doesn't work. I may be doing something else wrong 08:51:22 osa1: (like when you want to have an unbound special variable with a docstring) 08:51:30 osa1: what do you try? how does it not work? 08:52:10 H4ns: I created a simple package with defpackage, then C-x C-e it, then evaluated (documentation 'package-name 'function) 08:52:34 osa1: why don't you have a look into the clhs entry for documentation? 08:52:42 ok 08:52:50 osa1: that'd teach you what the 'function means. 08:54:25 -!- ko1 [~k11@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:58:40 mhi^ [~mhi@mhi.sanctioned.net] has joined #lisp 09:02:40 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:03:19 salvi [~vukung@catv-80-98-247-63.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:06:10 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-253-131.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 09:09:05 bjonnh [~bjonnh@147.210.71.83] has joined #lisp 09:09:50 is there a way to push a character back to a stream? 09:12:36 found it, stream-unread-char 09:13:01 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 09:13:40 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-148-31.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:13:51 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.153.78] has joined #lisp 09:13:51 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.153.78] has quit [Changing host] 09:13:51 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:13:55 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-253-131.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:14:26 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:15:18 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:17:15 Phoodus [~foo@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:46 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-155-223.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 09:21:18 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #lisp 09:28:54 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #lisp 09:29:47 am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.101] has joined #lisp 09:31:01 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 09:32:50 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-174-201.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:36:05 -!- am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:36:17 bondar [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 09:36:40 -!- KDr2 [~kdr2@125.34.44.120] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:37:40 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-253-131.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 09:44:40 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-253-131.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:47:38 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:48:55 am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.101] has joined #lisp 09:49:50 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-efklkgmdofckndty] has joined #lisp 09:50:57 Wow 09:51:05 After (delete-package :keyword) the connection closes 09:51:09 Can't even ,restart 09:51:54 Kenjin [~josesanto@83.240.225.146] has joined #lisp 09:52:10 Sgeo: what did you expect? 09:52:39 SBCL to yell at me like it usually does when I try to do something silly like that 09:52:46 And/or a simple restart to work 09:53:01 The thing even busted the inferior lisp or something, had to let M-x slime make a new one 09:54:16 (delete-package :cl) forces me to jump through more hoops 09:54:21 building a system that is idiot-proof is a lot of work 09:55:35 kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-tauhmgjlaafxokba] has joined #lisp 09:55:35 -!- kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-tauhmgjlaafxokba] has quit [Changing host] 09:55:35 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 09:56:26 ccl outside of slime just accepts it 09:56:26 jdz: which ultimately fails 09:56:41 Wonder if sbcl raw repl would also survive 09:56:47 pkhuong: I can test more 09:57:22 As soon as I get an error in ccl, I'm trapped, due to its reliance on keywords as instructions in the debugger 09:57:53 p_l: yeah, «make a system that even idiots can use, and only idiots will [want to] use it» 09:58:08 -!- Fare [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:58:16 If you were smart, you'd import all the keywords in another package P before deleting the KEYWORD package, so that you can use P:B instead of :B. 09:58:18 SBCL at regular REPL also survives initially 09:58:19 P::B 09:58:58 jdz: and the universe will provide a bigger idiot 09:59:06 ...sbcl can't even add without the keyword package 09:59:10 That's just nuts 09:59:24 Sgeo: why? 09:59:29 -!- hyko [~toby@my.unixuni.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:59:33 jdz, no idea 09:59:34 Fare [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 09:59:47 ccl can do it at least 09:59:48 Sgeo: you have no idea why you say something? 09:59:51 Sgeo: I agree, it's nuts that a human can't walk after having his spine ripped out 09:59:51 Just need to avoid errors 10:00:36 sbcl is even having errors printing objects 10:00:42 I need more implementations. This is fun. 10:00:44 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA00D6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:02:22 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: heads home] 10:04:01 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:04:23 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 10:06:39 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-253-131.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 10:07:42 jdz, I thought you were asking why sbcl crashes then 10:07:49 *Sgeo* guesses not 10:07:52 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:08:58 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA00D6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:08:59 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:09:10 -!- BountyX [~andrew@d118-75-26-80.nap.wideopenwest.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 10:09:14 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 10:09:26 I think they are saying that trying to remove the dependencies will make sbcil to misbehave 10:09:31 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-125-218.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:56 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 10:11:26 In any case it's perfectly conforming. 10:12:02 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA00D6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:12:20 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-155-223.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:12:34 I'm pretty sure blowing the planet up would be perfectly conforming too... 10:12:45 0_0 10:13:08 what's wrong with the commented line in this code? http://paste.lisp.org/display/128297 10:13:09 "The consequences of deleting the COMMON-LISP package or the KEYWORD package are undefined." 10:13:22 Yes. Common Lisp is not a programming language for idiots. That's why it's not popular, amongst idiots. 10:14:22 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-253-131.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:14:22 osa1: it doesn't do what you want. 10:14:29 osa1: otherwise, nothing's wrong with it. 10:15:24 pjb: I don't understand why it doesn't do what I want. it produces a list line (#\0 #\1 ...) and that's what I wanta 10:15:51 osa1: see DIGIT-CHAR. 10:16:06 Then what's your problem? 10:16:11 digit-char-p? 10:16:18 DIGIT-CHAR. 10:16:34 right 10:17:36 pjb: I want to use (loop for i from 0 to 9 collect (digit-char i)) instead of (#\0 #\1 #\2 #\3 #\4 #\5 #\6 #\7 #\8 #\9) in my (case ..) form 10:18:19 Good. 10:19:05 osa1: (case ch (#.(loop for i from 0 to 9 collect (digit-char i)) ) ) 10:20:03 Notice #.(loop for i from 0 to 9 collect (digit-char i)) is 1 character longer. 10:20:39 pjb: that worked. thanks 10:20:42 and not clearer at all. 10:21:06 lain_ [~lain@p5DDBB1C6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:21:24 You could use (cond ((digit-char-p ch) ) ((char-equal ch #\i) ) ) 10:21:29 wewe 10:21:32 come va? 10:22:18 You have 100 ms to compute the result! that's 100 million cycles. 10:22:19 hello lain_ :) 10:23:08 hello fe[nl]ix 10:23:30 and then you can use the second argument to digit-char-p to handle other bases 'for free' (: 10:24:02 -!- mhi^ [~mhi@mhi.sanctioned.net] has left #lisp 10:25:17 agumonkey [agumonkey@143.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 10:26:12 nialo-_v [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 10:26:16 -!- nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:26:29 lain_: what brings you here ? 10:27:27 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:27:33 fe[nl]ix: just opened my irc client and hanging out with old friends 10:27:43 :3 10:27:58 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:28:33 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 10:29:03 -!- sunmix [~user@223.204.90.175] has left #lisp 10:31:50 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:33:16 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-253-131.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 10:34:32 -!- springz [~springz@116.231.107.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:41:42 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:43:25 MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-125-141.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 10:43:52 snearch [~snearch@f053010040.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:44:14 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053010040.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 10:44:34 snearch [~snearch@f053010040.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:45:05 leo2007 [~leo@114.249.24.219] has joined #lisp 10:46:48 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-125-218.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:47:18 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:47:47 springz [~springz@216.24.205.54] has joined #lisp 10:49:24 <[6502]> "Common Lisp is not a programming language for idiots. That's why it's not popular, amongst idiots." 10:50:07 -!- aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:50:08 <[6502]> pjb: very nice... what i don't understand why it's not popular amongst smart guys either... 10:50:28 But it is popular amongst smart guys. 10:50:56 Just remember that smart is 1 or 2% of the popuplation. 10:50:57 p 10:51:41 [6502]: remember that "idiot" is a very flexible term and can be applied to anyone who is not the person using it. 10:51:51 <[6502]> pjb: not really... googlers are smart, but lisp a taboo word at google; they almost only use java (!), C++ and Python 10:52:04 ITA 10:52:10 [6502]: that is what makes them be idiots 10:52:22 [6502]: (fsvo "idiot") 10:52:47 <[6502]> h4ns: idiots like peter norvig? 10:53:12 [6502]: ask pjb. he is the one who likes the term. 10:53:27 [6502]: [6502]: that is what makes them be idiots 10:54:02 pjb: oh, wait, let me scroll up on my two line screen to remember me what i typed next. 10:54:17 H4ns: that was to [6502]. 10:54:26 He didn't seem to catch it. 10:54:30 (interrupt-thread # #'quit) 10:56:41 KDr2 [~kdr2@114.243.228.158] has joined #lisp 11:00:03 -!- leo2007 [~leo@114.249.24.219] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.94.1] 11:01:11 bas_ [~bas@89.184.179.185] has joined #lisp 11:01:57 -!- bas_ is now known as Skola 11:04:51 leo2007 [~leo@114.249.24.219] has joined #lisp 11:05:41 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:06:02 -!- springz [~springz@216.24.205.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:06:42 aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 11:11:01 why are we talking to prisoners? 11:11:08 madnificent: ? 11:11:41 Let's make no prisoners. 11:11:45 and what's wrong with talking to prisoners? 11:11:48 [6502]: Lisp is not taboo at google, afaik. It's just that the *production* systems run in one of the approved languages... 11:12:19 or at least, that's what I get from my sources so far (and then there's ITA, the Lisp island in Google-land) 11:13:03 p_l: if someone who can only identify himself as a number and asks a question which i'd classify as smart troll, i don't tend to be nice :) 11:13:23 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA00D6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:13:45 I did the programming questions in my interviews in CL or pseudocode, only after prototyping the algorithm translating them into Java 11:13:45 jdz: nothing, really. my point would have been void if it'd have been nice 11:13:51 madnificent: 6502 is not just a number ;-) 11:13:56 <[6502]> madnificent: my nick is not just a number 11:14:01 madnificent: heh. for me 6502 immediately recalled the cpu :D 11:14:12 madnificent: claiming that people who don't use lisp are "idiots" is trollish to begin with. 11:14:38 <[6502]> https://github.com/6502 11:14:42 flip215: you failed 11:14:43 je sais. but it's quite hard to troll a possible troll if everyone is going to be all sane about it! :P 11:15:02 <[6502]> a recent addition is a toy javascript 6502 emulator (a JIT compiler, not an interpreter) 11:15:04 H4ns: i don't remember seeing such a claim, but then again, i did not follow the discussion too closely 11:15:32 jdz: in this kind of discussion, it does not matter anyway. just fire away! 11:15:35 :) 11:16:34 <[6502]> H4ns: i found the phrase "Common Lisp is not a programming language for idiots. That's why it's not popular, amongst idiots." very interesting, and I actually agree 11:17:04 [6502]: btw, I heard some gripes from Googlers about Java in their infrastructure (bloody GC optimizations, slow FFI leading to some important libs being implemented twice, etc.) 11:17:10 [6502]: i found it funny, too. but it is not a good statement to make anyway. 11:17:10 <[6502]> H4ns: however it's only half of the truth... because lisp is also not very popular amongst smart people... it's just not very popular. 11:18:16 [6502]: the odd thing is that managers see that mixing smart programmers with mediocre ones could make them all more productive. but they don't seem to immediately grasp that you need to give the smarter programmers the right tools to help the mediocre ones. hence, mediocre languages are the bar. 11:18:45 Well, popularity is at best orthogonal to popularity. Speaking of popular, I wonder who will be the next lisper to be interviewed after Xach. 11:19:20 splittist: popularity is at best orthogonal to popularity? 11:19:41 Oh - quality. 11:19:57 [6502]: also, if you dislike lisp not being popular: go and promote it! this argument just seems to slow us down. if lisp really is that unpopular then you're stalling what? 5% of current lisp users? ;-) hop on, make a cool poster, blog post or post a comment on ./ 11:21:58 i wanted to make a witty comment about dotslash, but decided to refrain 11:22:01 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 11:23:01 splittist: i suggested a handful of rad people 11:23:02 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 11:23:18 Xach: was pjb one of them? 11:23:23 good god, no 11:24:04 -!- DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:24:25 lol 11:24:38 I wouldn't do an interview. 11:26:17 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:26:57 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 11:27:10 It could be a great opportunity to clear your name! 11:27:37 aaaagga 11:27:39 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:28:06 sorry, my terminal went insane 11:28:07 My name doesn't need any clearing. 11:30:30 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-164-172.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:32:02 pjb: you could, but you'd refrain people from reading it :) (i kid, i kid) 11:33:08 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:35:15 -!- lain_ [~lain@p5DDBB1C6.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 11:35:20 lain_ [~lain@p5DDBB1C6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:35:53 <[6502]> foodtime 11:35:57 -!- [6502] [58959a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.154.87] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:36:19 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-oiidhdbqmehifbus] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:38:06 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-mjmngidjztpwiffy] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:38:36 brainfuck is not for idiots too 11:40:00 And brainfuck is not popular :-) 11:40:13 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-132-147.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 11:41:15 It, too, has an underappreciated syntax. 11:41:48 i am not convinced that lisp is not for idiots, i am an idiot and seem pretty easy to understand 11:42:13 Lisp is one of the simpler low level language families. 11:42:13 kilon: there are different kinds of idiots :-) 11:42:28 always knew there was a catch 11:42:47 maybe you meant "lazy" 11:42:53 maybe not 11:43:16 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-125-141.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:43:45 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:44:20 lisp is low level ? it maps closely to machine code ? did not know that 11:44:21 DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #lisp 11:44:30 interesting 11:44:44 That's a useless and nonsensical definition. 11:44:53 Which machine code are you referring to? 11:45:05 anyone 11:45:18 Then you're obviously an idiot. 11:45:34 There are a large number of possible machine codes. 11:45:35 thats what i said 11:45:41 Some of which are very silly. 11:45:57 So saying that Language X 'maps closely to machine code' is meaningless. 11:46:07 well if its machine code, its machine code 11:46:16 udzinari [user@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:3aab] has joined #lisp 11:46:20 lisp machines 11:46:22 And machine code is anything that a machine interprets? 11:46:36 So, when I have visual goddamned basic running in hardware it will be machine code? 11:47:18 sure 11:47:35 dto [~user@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:47:41 but i meant everyday pcs and macs, intel processors 11:47:45 Then it's a useless definition, because every language maps directly to machine language. 11:47:56 nope 11:48:00 lol 11:48:08 Sure it does -- you just need to find a machine that runs it directly. 11:48:09 12:48 < kilon> but i meant everyday pcs and macs, intel processors 11:48:10 what? 11:48:23 Then you can implement it in an software emulator. 11:48:29 in this case the only language which maps to machine code is ix86 assembler 11:48:32 And now your language is machin-code. 11:48:46 anyway 11:48:53 as i said , i am an idiot 11:49:03 MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-118-163.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 11:49:09 A valuable realization. 11:50:11 krrrcks [~krrrcks@krrrcks.de] has joined #lisp 11:52:14 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:26 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-132-147.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:52:51 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-vcfayljkrpjzyfho] has joined #lisp 11:53:11 -!- leo2007 [~leo@114.249.24.219] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.94.1] 11:53:51 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:54:11 Hi. Is postmodern known to run on Windows boxes? 11:54:25 I get a connect but even the simplest query fails. 11:56:12 [SLB] [~slabua@host89-69-dynamic.182-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:56:12 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host89-69-dynamic.182-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 11:56:12 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 11:56:44 krrrcks: I think I've used it on Windows. What happens when it fails? 11:58:19 Well, I do a "connect-toplevel". Then I did a (postmodern:query "select 10") and it fails with "Database error: on # : Das geraet erkennt den Befehl nicht. (error #22) during write [Condition of type CL-POSTGRES-SOCKET-ERROR 11:58:22 It runs without SSL. 11:58:28 postgres and postmodern. 11:58:48 database is on the windows box. and in the pgadmin3 window I can see the connected user. 11:58:52 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:58:55 Ich sprechen nein deutsch 11:59:26 Xach: Well.. in English would be something like "The device does not recognice the command" or something. 11:59:54 and afterwards the connection is lost. 12:00:22 ccl 1.7-dev-r14645M on Windows, 32 Bit (Windows XP). 12:00:50 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 12:00:59 postmodern-20111105 12:02:38 stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.149.138] has joined #lisp 12:02:42 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 12:02:57 just doing an update to the newest version. just a second. 12:03:28 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #lisp 12:04:27 still the same error. 12:04:29 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:06:53 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:08:04 hm. same when I do a connect to a different host (where a PostgreSQL database is running under linux): I get a connect, see the user in pgadmin3 and after the first query it gets lost. 12:08:06 daem0n [~yaargh@unaffiliated/mryaargh] has joined #lisp 12:08:21 -!- daem0n [~yaargh@unaffiliated/mryaargh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:08:32 "Database error: Unexpected end of file on <#BASIC-TCP-STREAM: CLOSED #xD407D8E> ..." 12:08:35 strange 12:09:09 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 12:09:52 krrrcks: anything in the postgres log? how about using wireshark? 12:13:41 hmm.. i have to take a close look.... 12:15:34 Bugson [~Bugson@87-204-6-135.ip.netia.com.pl] has joined #lisp 12:16:36 Grrrr... 12:16:53 Seems like a problem with the wrong character encoding... 12:17:10 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:17:11 I really really hate those encoding problems. I run into them nearly every project. 12:17:27 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129218225.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 12:17:37 krrrcks: welcome to the club 12:17:41 thx. 12:18:03 guys with SBCL I'm getting "Binding stack exhausted." error I'm using 3 big nested functions, previously I was getting control stack exhausted error but I dilled with it with runtime options, can someone help me with this one? 12:18:07 but that was not the message from the postmodern. there something like "not valid message length" is written in the log. 12:18:11 It's much better than it used to be, now that everyone uses utf-8. 12:18:18 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.134.31] has joined #lisp 12:19:05 -!- kanru` [~user@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:19:18 Zhivago: Yeah, it's getting better. But it is still annoying. 12:19:54 ckairaba [~ckairaba@39.104.100.84.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 12:20:13 At least, I haven't seen shift-jis in the wild for a few years. :) 12:21:10 Bugson: too many dynamic bindings. 12:21:44 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #lisp 12:21:49 Are you sure that's program isn't recursing ad infinitum? 12:22:08 pkhuong: what are dynamic bindings? nested functions? I'm using it with maxima 12:22:55 "invalid message length" is the error in the postgresql log. 12:24:05 on linux it works as expected. 12:24:13 pkhuong: generally it's huge exp(f(x)) when I calculate it seperatly then it's ok, when I put f(x) inside exp() then I'm getting those errors 12:24:28 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.134.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:25:13 You might want to look at a backtrace and see if, e.g. the algebraic simplifier, isn't chasing its tail. 12:31:31 -!- ckairaba [~ckairaba@39.104.100.84.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 12:31:44 pkhuong: ok it was something with naming thx a lot ;) 12:33:23 sorry, it's hard to provide good help without knowing both maxima, CL and what you're doing. Maxima's a large piece of code. 12:35:11 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.126] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:36:22 Try stepping through it, if possible. 12:37:25 pkhuong: thx a lot, I was close to recompile SBCL :) 12:37:47 any lispers in Dublin? 12:38:48 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:38:52 fe[nl]ix: I can now build hunchentoot from scratch (: 12:39:06 woot 12:39:30 and start it? 12:39:58 Bugson: Recompiling SBCL is a nice thing ... but close the window or detach screen ... it writes a lot of output to the terminal ;) *G* 12:40:14 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.134.31] has joined #lisp 12:40:17 Xof_: yup, but that wasn't an issue on .55 either here 12:40:46 hmp 12:48:13 cbp`` [~user@187.208.0.7] has joined #lisp 12:49:33 ko1 [~k11@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 12:51:07 is the music to hunchentoot (the science fiction musical) available online anywhere? 12:53:23 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:53:25 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:53:49 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:54:50 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:55:02 -!- cbp`` [~user@187.208.0.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:57:03 pkhuong: did you mean to push so many branches? 12:57:54 -!- mgodshall [~quassel@pool-108-36-207-226.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: gurgle gurgle] 12:58:13 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:58:51 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 12:59:23 Xach: I just pushed everything... Figured a third backup can't hurt. 13:01:59 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 13:04:39 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:05:08 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:05:14 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM1-114-137-144.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:06:52 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-118-163.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:09:32 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:10:31 kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@164-177-151-185.static.cloud-ips.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:10:33 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.159.184] has joined #lisp 13:10:44 MoALTz [~no@92.8.234.0] has joined #lisp 13:11:06 -!- kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@164-177-151-185.static.cloud-ips.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:11:09 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 13:12:31 -!- bondar [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:14:06 -!- kilon [~user@178.59.17.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:19:36 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:20:09 BlankVer1e [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 13:20:14 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-253-131.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:20:54 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:23:47 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-90-114.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 13:24:29 bondar [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 13:25:38 Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:44 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:29:46 -!- MrBusiness [~MrBusines@184.99.7.19] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:30:10 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:31:43 rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:33:51 dekuked [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:44 inaimathi [~inaimathi@174.137.255.113] has joined #lisp 13:35:28 is the second parameter of DEFVAR evaluated if the symbol being assigned to is already bound? 13:35:36 IIRC, yes. 13:35:50 (or asked another way, how do i correctly start a hunchentoot server without re-starting it on recompiling the file?) 13:35:56 I recalled wrong: initial-value---a form; for defparameter, it is always evaluated, but for defvar it is evaluated only if name is not already bound. 13:35:57 13:36:19 thanks! 13:37:09 anyone here familiar with :cl-actors and willing to answer a stupid question? 13:37:35 Sadly, I can only say yes to the latter :( 13:37:43 inaimathi: even with OR, it would be hard 13:38:13 fair 13:38:29 tkellen [~tkellen@68.169.219.4] has joined #lisp 13:40:04 rvirding_ [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:40:10 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0.2/20120215223356]] 13:40:16 -!- rvirding_ [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Client Quit] 13:40:41 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM1-114-137-144.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:41:13 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM1-114-137-144.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:43:29 rme [~rme@50.43.184.114] has joined #lisp 13:45:50 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM1-114-137-144.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:46:20 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-179.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:46:28 Hello! 13:46:50 I need enlightement: 13:47:21 why file with name "a.b.c" is output by (directory "path/*.*")? 13:47:35 DGASAU: implementation dependant. 13:47:40 Hm. 13:48:03 Try: (mapcar (lambda (f) (funcall f "a.b.c")) '(pathname-name pathname-type)) 13:48:33 setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.126] has joined #lisp 13:48:41 Happily most unix implementations return ("a.b" "c"). 13:48:48 does the cl-who in quicklisp not include html5 support? (setf (html-mode) :html5) fails in an ecase, though github definitely has code supporting it 13:48:49 But this is not specified. 13:49:17 nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:29 -!- dto [~user@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:49:39 flip215: Hm. Wireshark does not help me much. There is a packet "Malformed Packet (Exception occured)". End of connection. 13:49:42 The original problem is that (directory "*.*.*") doesn't pick files like "a.b". 13:49:50 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.159.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:49:53 And I don't quite understand why. 13:49:59 Again, implementation dependant. 13:50:20 DGASAU: CL's :wild pathname components need not match up with Unix expectations. 13:50:34 That's pity. 13:50:35 Because "*.*.*" means (make-pathname :name :wild :type :wild :version :wild) not (make-pathname :name "*.*" :type :wild :version nil). 13:50:40 DGASAU: why are you specifying "*.*.*" in the first place? 13:51:07 (list (make-pathname :name :wild :type :wild :version :wild) (make-pathname :name "*.*" :type :wild :version nil)) => (#P"*.*" #P"*\\.*.*") 13:51:09 I read it as pjb, but I thought that on unix version matches anything. 13:51:13 implementation dependant, but notice the difference. 13:51:17 (because it is always :latest) 13:51:39 :newest, not :latest. 13:51:50 :newest right. 13:52:08 Notice how :version :wild translates to nothing on this implementation. 13:54:09 I think I understand it a bit better now. 13:54:12 But it is weird. 13:54:38 YEs, CL pathnames are weird. THey're not mere sequences of unsigned bytes like POSIX pathnames. 13:55:10 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 13:55:55 Well... I don't quite understand why #P"/etc/*.*" works the same way. 13:56:14 Isn't it name string rather than pathname? 13:56:26 DGASAU: nobody can: #P"/etc/*.*" is a physical pathname, ie. it's entirely implementation dependant. 13:56:44 DGASAU: use make-pathname to make sence. 13:56:47 sense 13:56:56 *DGASAU* sighs. 13:57:29 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.149.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:58:38 CL is way too old, it really needs refreshing in some parts. 13:58:51 DGASAU: Fortunately there is javascript. 14:00:25 lol, #lisp has highest ratio of sarcastic replies then any other channel 14:00:42 -!- tkellen [~tkellen@68.169.219.4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:01:10 DGASAU: on a serious note, yes pathname system is horrible. CL extension is done by having bunch of libraries, there are several you can use, cl-fad is one 14:01:35 tkellen [~tkellen@68.169.219.4] has joined #lisp 14:01:36 maxm-: a) there was no sarcasm b) the pathname system is not horrible 14:01:37 but the "horrible" pathname system is standard, and if you write code that uses it, it will run on SBCL, CCL, Lispworks, Allegro and such 14:01:41 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:58 What's horrible is the uninterpreted sequences of bytes. 14:02:41 "Oh, look. A new OS. What's the directory separator on this one?" 14:03:06 If there's such a notion! 14:03:54 *Xach* thinks back to his VM/CMS days, and "sharing" named disks to get access to files & programs... 14:04:30 I don't like this one: 14:04:31 (make-pathname :name "a.b" :type :wild :version :wild) 14:04:32 #P"a.b.*" 14:05:00 DGASAU: moral: don't try to handle pathnames that don't have exactly one dot in their name with portable lisp code. 14:05:04 but in any case, name some other language where recursive file finding comes built-in, or recursive directory making 14:05:05 'SYS1.PARMLIB(IEASYS00)' <--- have some dinosaur from the path 14:05:06 *past 14:05:29 DGASAU: to love you immediate problem, just use **/*.whatever, then filter out files you don't need.. 2 lines of code, problem solved 14:05:41 SYS$SYSDEVICE:[SYSROOT.SYSEXE]AUTHORIZE.DAT;394 14:05:51 Or better, I don't like the way file type is defined on unix-like systems. 14:05:51 there you go. that is why pathnames made sense. 14:06:10 Except that in VMS "DAT" is really file type. 14:06:35 DGASAU: right. and you can't ever put a dot in a file's name. and you can't type these file names unless you are a borg. 14:06:40 DGASAU: well... properly speaking, file type was the RMS def, not the extension... 14:06:43 DGASAU: there's no file type on unix systems! Only sequences of bytes!!! 14:06:53 Yes. 14:06:59 "yeah, vms is cool, but unix file names are so much easier to type!" 14:07:00 That's what I'm talking about. 14:07:05 DGASAU: you're imagining things, and then you're reproaching CL not to implement your figments! 14:07:31 H4ns: and thats why Unix is what we all currently type this on, and show me one user who types this from his personal VMS terminal 14:07:41 I'd rather expect empty file type on unices. 14:07:50 A better moralis not to use pathnames for anything other than a virtual lisp fs. 14:07:53 maxm-: don't tempt me :P 14:08:03 old fart elitism leads to stagnation 14:08:20 maxm-: then why do you use common lisp? 14:08:25 Nobody prevents you to write a POSIX path library in CL. 14:08:25 *p_l* simply got a computer that has only VMS on it, though not accessible at the moment 14:08:34 again with apologies to elderly, and flatulence-impaired 14:09:13 H4ns: best rapid development / prototyping / ad-hoc reasearch platform 14:09:21 maxm-: and stagnant 14:11:52 H4ns: no I don't think its stagnant, its in fact quite vibrant and on a revival.. But IMHO each time someone complains about pathnames, or streams or some other outdated stuff, "its fine just the way it is, go code in javascript you plebian" gives bad impression 14:13:12 if it was fine the way it is, there would not be 5 competing libraries trying to generalise/fix streams, encodings, pathnames, sockets and such.. And having those libraries is great thing, its much more helpful to point to them, rather then start saying "well, if you do it hard way, then your code will probably work on VMS" 14:13:17 Nobody prevents you to write a POSIX path library in CL. 14:13:29 -!- Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:13:33 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-319279.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 14:13:41 Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:12 aceluck [~aceluck@175.142.141.113] has joined #lisp 14:14:25 maxm-: personally, i like pathnames and use them a lot, but i don't try to use them with file names that don't work with them. that is all i'm saying. common lisp has no offering for such filenames. 14:14:57 H4ns: yea I use them too.. But inside I cry everytime :-) 14:15:12 maxm-: and pjb is perfectly right, someone _could_ write a library for posix file names, although i have trouble imagining what that could be, other than being something very trivial :) 14:15:17 It might have been better to have made pathnames be opaque objects 14:15:27 Xach: no kidding. I never met another ex VM/CMSer online before :) 14:15:48 maxm-: so far I found two (counting Xach) 14:15:49 dlowe: right. it might have been better if andy tanenbaum had released minix under a liberal license. 14:15:51 tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.172.46] has joined #lisp 14:16:08 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-106-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:18 H4ns: I'm aware of the futility of speculation at this point :p 14:16:35 *H4ns* was a cm/cmser for a brief period of time, when the only way into bitnet in his city was through the vm/cms "box" at the uni 14:16:35 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-vcfayljkrpjzyfho] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:16:59 heh yeah good old bitnet. sometimes I miss BLEKUL11 14:17:09 DB0TUI11 here :D 14:17:26 maxm-: zhivago's answer was not tongue in cheek or sarcastic. 14:17:27 that was EARN, to be pricse 14:17:30 percise 14:17:41 *Xach* was on bitnet but it was on its last legs at the time 14:17:41 kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@164-177-151-185.static.cloud-ips.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:17:49 damn. jet lag is evil 14:18:26 Speaking of time shift, how's everybody dealing with the daylight savings time clock change? 14:18:28 Xach: ok I must have over-sensitive sarcasm detector 14:18:31 There was a guy at the school who modeled glacier motion with fortran programs on the 3090 14:18:32 VM/CMS filenames were interesting. especially little details like the '5' in FOO BAR A5 denoting that the OS would erase the file after it had been read once 14:18:37 I wonder if it had a Lisp environment. 14:18:51 It had PCL (portable common lisp) with reduce 14:18:59 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.136] has joined #lisp 14:19:09 Neat. My use of the mainframe far predated my awareness of Lisp. 14:19:13 nyef: poorly 14:19:18 and an IBM lisp that had truly weird primitives like an mapcar with inverse arguments 14:19:37 pjb: the point is in _not_ requiring everyone implementing his own replacement for non-/dys-functional DIRECTORY. 14:19:54 too late! 14:20:12 *p_l* is a little tempted to try porting SBCL to z/OS 14:20:18 DGASAU: the point is NOT complaining, and writing a library for everyone else! 14:20:25 argh. 1h late. 14:20:26 -!- Fare [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:21:09 I'm aware of QuickLisp and it still presents some logistical problems. 14:21:30 irrelevant. 14:21:31 -!- am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:21:38 Oh? 14:21:38 The point is NOT complaining! 14:21:41 p_l: hmm, didn't someone get started on that already? 14:21:49 p_l: or was that some other big iron environment? 14:21:50 p_l good luck with that port but the memory layout would be interesting 14:22:25 ah, blue gene 14:22:26 pjb: I _can_ handle that very well, still it _is_ inconvenient. 14:22:38 dgasau: The point is to allow lisp code to work portably -- not to read files produced by random crap on your random machine. 14:22:41 nyef: is it possible that &more is now slightly broken? %more-arg-values crashes when skip-count > 0. 14:22:48 dgasau: And this pathnames does well. 14:23:03 Well... 14:23:04 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:23:33 Xach: BlueGene is PPC with normal linux 14:23:56 p_l: normal? 14:24:04 p_l: not quite; the MMU is very bare bones, iirc. 14:24:15 When a third of all systems are some Unix derivative, it is rather stupid to handle it incorrectly. 14:24:17 Xach: quite normal. 14:24:55 pkhuong: oh? That might be it, though the biggest changes would be in memory allocation... and with static memory setup used by SBCL it might be not that problematic 14:25:01 Alright, "incorrectly" might be too strong word in presense of standard, 14:25:08 it is inconvenient still. 14:25:18 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 14:25:18 DGASAU: common lisp is not about your convenience :D 14:25:42 p_l: even on cheneygc, the GC does some mprotect tricks. It's minor though, only used to detect stack or semispace overflow. 14:25:45 Xach: MVS is very... interesting environment. Truly alien one, too 14:26:35 in 24 bit address mode, having 8 bits to play with for each pointer was often very convenient 14:27:38 mal: and 24bit is till used by quite a lot of the code, from what I noticed. 64bit seemed rare (I guess mainly parts of the kernel + some of the newer stuff... 14:27:53 tag-bits are always convenient. 14:28:16 Hmm, do you know Stanislaw Halik? His website for "fcgi" is down... 14:28:24 p_l: a lot of non ecmode stuff would be fiendishly hard to port so if they don't need the extra data space 14:28:25 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 14:28:30 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 14:28:49 ecmode being the VM assist stuff? 14:29:05 (ECPS it was called, afaik?) 14:29:24 it's been a few decades since I last saw CMS but IIRC ecmode is the 32 bit address mode 14:29:49 ah. MVS refered to it with XA or ESA names 14:30:32 (S/370 XA being the architecture) 14:31:11 go_epsilon_go [bbb1e891@gateway/web/freenode/ip.187.177.232.145] has joined #lisp 14:31:12 pkhuong: I actually haven't built SBCL from git in a while, so I couldn't tell you. 14:31:35 I wonder how they managed the ebcdic->ascii and ibmfloat->ieee migrations 14:32:42 presumably by way of billing the customers! 14:33:04 rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 14:33:25 yeah of that you can be sure :) 14:34:12 mal: MVS runs in EBCDIC :P 14:34:24 and both ibmfloat and IEEE are supported 14:34:55 yeah well I used to do numerics in ibmfloat. that's something I don't miss. 14:35:21 Supposedly VAX floating point formats died sometime during AMD K8 design work :> 14:35:37 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-fqyjmpyeaoyzunkt] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:36:18 and cray floats aren't too hot either these days :) 14:36:20 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-106-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:36:45 (I heard that K8 actually had some stuff taken literally from Alpha... leading to changelog entries like "removing support for VAX float formats") 14:37:45 -!- BlankVer1e [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:37:50 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has joined #lisp 14:37:56 hmmm it was the same team mostly but wouldn't that be a major IP problem? 14:38:02 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp 14:39:28 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:40:46 mal: they already had some licensing arrangements regarding Alpha IP before, so I can see AMD getting around it 14:41:10 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has quit [Client Quit] 14:41:41 *maxm-* hopes amd pulls through.. we would have been stuck with itanium if not for them 14:41:42 it doesn't help that K8's sudden reintroduction of NUMA to mainstream PC world didn't look a lot like EV7 :) 14:41:51 Jovlang [~user@36.109-247-16.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 14:42:08 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 14:42:51 *maxm-* actually worked on HPUX itanium box, and it was horrible. Half the system software was still not ported, and running on pa-risc emulator 14:42:54 so horribly slow 14:43:22 that's how the only lisp supported for the itanium runs on it 14:43:30 (well, commercially supported) 14:44:31 Xach: how would i go about getting a newer version of cl-who pushed into quicklisp? i seem to get 0.11.1, which is 4 years old :-/ 14:45:03 ecraven: you could nag me to make a release 14:45:04 -!- tkellen [~tkellen@68.169.219.4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:45:23 H4ns: :) great, i'd really like html5 support in quicklisp cl-who :D how do i best nag you? 14:45:43 With 50 euro notes perhaps? 14:45:59 wish i had some of those lying around here 14:46:00 ecraven: open an issue in https://github.com/edicl/cl-who/issues detailing your wishes 14:46:37 ecraven: hundreds will do. 14:46:40 tkellen [~tkellen@68.169.219.4] has joined #lisp 14:46:52 hehe, if i had any, i'd send them your way 14:48:20 interesting... "ecraven opened this issue in a minute" .. do i get a reminder to open it? what if i don't? 14:49:30 ecraven: No, no... That's obviously time elapsed. It took you a minute to open the issue. d-: 14:49:56 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:52:11 It's just been cut off - "ecraven opened this issue in a minute bikini"... 14:54:16 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:55:19 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp 14:55:28 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 14:55:44 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-319279.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:56:03 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:56:07 osa1_ [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 14:56:27 -!- tkellen [~tkellen@68.169.219.4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:56:48 'Beavis, he said "cut off"!' 14:57:09 -!- osa1_ [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:57:20 osa1_ [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 14:57:46 -!- osa1_ [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:57:57 osa1_ [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 15:00:02 tkellen [~tkellen@68.169.219.4] has joined #lisp 15:01:28 -!- osa1_ [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Client Quit] 15:01:36 osa1_ [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 15:02:11 -!- krrrcks [~krrrcks@krrrcks.de] has left #lisp 15:02:41 -!- osa1_ [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:02:51 osa1_ [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 15:03:47 -!- KDr2 [~kdr2@114.243.228.158] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:04:02 mgodshall [~quassel@76.161.200.249] has joined #lisp 15:08:52 Yuuhi [benni@p5483AC86.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:18 ivan-kan` [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 15:11:07 -!- srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:12:21 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:14:29 6502: You left out javascript. :) 15:15:16 Frankly, I suspect that lisp is probably best avoided by large groups. 15:16:09 (Since in large groups, superficial legibility is very important) 15:16:20 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053010040.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 15:17:45 that's doable by enforcing a strict commit and code review discipline 15:18:04 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-174-201.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:19 i.e. if you are afraid of people getting too creative, just don't let them 15:18:24 *Xach* starts to use package::(...) more and more 15:19:00 Xach: SBCL supports it? 15:19:04 Xach: is that available everywhere? 15:19:05 cmm: Then ... you might as well not use lisp. 15:19:11 I use it in SBCL in the REPL. 15:19:26 Works also in Allegro, but I don't use Allegro much. 15:19:41 I thought Allegro was the only one that did. 15:19:47 SBCL recently added it. 15:19:53 nice! 15:20:00 cmm: Assuming that you mean using strict commit and code review to ensure that no-one does anything sufficiently interesting to require a non-superficial read of code. 15:20:00 sweet 15:20:28 i like that, as it means that i can port my spiffy xsl-fo macros to sbcl 15:20:32 Zhivago: anything sufficiently "interesting", yes 15:21:09 cmm: I think that's the wrong way to look at it -- lisp's strengths are in making deeply structured programs. 15:21:54 H4ns: I guess I should blog about it! 15:22:01 Xach: please do! 15:22:07 -!- benny [~benny@i577A32C6.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:22:24 -!- osa1_ [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:22:33 cmm: It's just that deeply structured programs require more investment to deal with -- if your organization is build on the premise that a random engineer should be able to fix anything relatively quickly ... 15:23:15 Zhivago: design that deep structure explicitly, then, why not? point is that your typical Joe Programmer's notion of interestingness is more about dicking around with obscure language corners than about design 15:23:23 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-106.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 15:23:57 cmm: Deep structure isn't superficially obvious. 15:24:11 Zhivago: most big projects I have been involved with were in fact quite deeply structured 15:24:22 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@ip98-169-80-239.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:24:55 cmm: If you're writing lisp then that usually means learning how the language was extended for this program. 15:24:57 of course, that's why a typical programmer is rarely truely productive in his first 2-3 months on the job. sometimes even more 15:25:02 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.245.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 15:25:07 expecting otherwise is foolishness 15:25:28 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:25:31 cmm: Also largely irrelevant, if you have a large number of programs. 15:26:31 cmm: All of the things that make lisp good for small groups on a few systems make it not good for large groups on a large number of systems. 15:27:08 cmm: I suspect that that's the driving force behind a lot of the popularity of java, in the other direction. 15:27:08 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 15:27:12 well, you could always say that the modern software industry more or less evolved to not need things like Lisp, so the fact that Lisp is not a good fit is hardly surprising 15:29:17 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129218225.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:29:19 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.200.176] has joined #lisp 15:31:07 gigamonkey [~pseibel@adsl-99-39-6-123.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:08 cmm: I think that's what I'm saying, yes. 15:34:26 cmm: Although for more nuanced reasons. 15:34:42 cmm: And as a factor of scale rather than quality. 15:35:11 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:35:13 chilubrin [~chilubrin@22.50.5646.static.theplanet.com] has joined #lisp 15:35:34 -!- CrLF0710` [~user@223.240.66.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:35:39 ahh it's a wonderful day 15:35:55 You landed a new lisp project? 15:36:00 Hacked and glorified? 15:37:06 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 15:37:39 *maxm-* is wondering if you put a bunch of 20 year old rural 3rd worlders through 3 month "teach programming" course, then send them to USA on L-visas as PHD coders 15:37:50 if they were coding in lisp, result would not have been different to their coding in java 15:38:05 in fact probably better 15:38:25 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:38:37 Let's ask beach the results of his vietnamese experiment! 15:39:30 beach used PHD coders, not 3-month course graduates 15:39:36 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.245.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:39:51 what makes lisp unsuitable, is that getting into a large project, there is high possibility that project had developed their own little world, with super-duper-make-life-easier macros, that look like "omg wtf" to outsiders 15:40:23 ... 15:40:25 bad programming can hit you everywhere, in any language 15:40:42 but in java, its just so verbose, that one enterprise app looks like the 2nd.. Altho to watch syntel team start from a shopping cart as a template for airline crew portal was hilarious 15:40:51 maxm-: oh, you have not seen many C++ projects with operator overloading, have you? 15:40:53 maxm-: I've seen that happen with every language I've worked with professionally. 15:40:55 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:41:29 maxm-: I'd like to think I've seen the worst of it in Lisp land, too. Mostly because I don't want to imagine what worse-than-that would be. 15:41:49 jdz: operator overloading has been summarily banned in any sane place for the last decade at least 15:42:01 sykopomp: you have not seen the worst of things in c++ land. or perl land. 15:42:25 cmm: probably; a decade would be a pretty accurate estimation of when i stopped doing any C++ 15:42:28 H4ns: I meant in Lisp land. I haven't seen anything in C++ or Perl. 15:42:36 cmm: but then, there are templates 15:42:38 heh 15:42:51 *H4ns* did c++ last year and it was what the fuck 15:42:51 yeah, there's that 15:43:12 speaking of C++ 15:43:14 oh no. the php was the real what the fuck part of that job 15:43:16 whatever happened to XCL? 15:43:42 been there, done that. PHP is hilariously bad. 15:44:04 sykopomp: no. it is not php that is bad. it is the bad programmers that are bad. 15:44:28 H4ns: in most languages, I'd agree with you. But not PHP. 15:44:31 Well, I hear that you can add hexadecimal numbers in php properly these days. 15:44:32 sykopomp: the language does not matter. incapable programmers will screw up badly in any language. you can't prevent it. 15:44:32 ppl look down on php, but probably in your daily browsing around for stuff to feed your sophisticated brain, >50% of sites you use are coded in php 15:44:39 *maxm-* hates php too, but its a fact of life 15:44:40 php is like a siren song to bad programmers 15:44:51 no wonder the web sucks so much. 15:44:58 PHP is like making a webservice in JCL 15:45:03 php has a high quotient of superficial simplicity. 15:45:20 php sucks, but in the hands of a good programmer, it can be used to create good programs. 15:45:31 m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.4] has joined #lisp 15:45:40 H4ns: except the effort required is a lot higher than for lisp 15:45:40 that small social networking site is written mostly in php, isn't it? 15:45:44 I've known great programmers that swear by PHP 15:46:02 limiting the language to be primitive and inexpressive is a form of damage control against the idiots that will for sure, at some point, enter any project. 15:46:03 always baffled me, though. 15:46:10 i'm not sure that it is a winning strategy. 15:46:36 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:47:05 phaer [~user@chello080108051063.9.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 15:47:31 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:49:24 Ed Catmull spoke about this, vaguely: "It's better to have good people than good ideas, because bad people will take a good idea and screw it up, and good people will throw out bad ideas and start fresh." 15:50:34 jdz: unfortunately I don't think this is the case yet, altho its moving there 15:50:37 _schulte_ [~eschulte@ip98-169-80-239.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:04 Software development is a funny industry. "We keep the scalpels blunt because of the idiots that will for sure, at some point, enter the operating room." 15:51:11 jdz: can be seen in #lisp balls collectively shriveling when newbie asks "so what are examples of some web sites powered by lisp" 15:51:25 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 11.0/20120305181207]] 15:51:42 maxm-: unfortunately so far it seems a lot of them are intranet stuff 15:52:17 or NDA'd 15:52:26 or NSA'd... 15:52:41 someone (fusss?) was working on a web-integrated point of sale, fusss did some advertising with CL and FCGI, drewc did a lot of intranets (CRUD stuff) 15:53:02 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has quit [Quit: Offline] 15:53:21 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.214.173] has joined #lisp 15:53:23 -!- BixSqrl [~Bix@c-50-131-212-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:54:29 maxm-: well, when you mention ITA and ViaWeb, you're accused of appealing to authority and not having enough background to tell. 15:54:38 Newbies are strange. 15:55:11 BixSqrl [~Bix@c-50-131-212-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:17 is viaweb still running? 15:55:29 No, it has been rewritten in C++. 15:55:46 Yes, it has been rewritten in C++. 15:55:51 GOAL's another one. 15:56:06 so how can it be great advertisement fol lisp web sites 15:56:19 wildnux [~wildnux@69.199.88.19] has joined #lisp 15:56:27 It made Graham billions. 15:56:30 "go ahead develop it in lisp, then after years of work, throw it away and rewrite in C++" 15:56:42 the question is bad, websites are hardly a technical achievement 15:56:42 maxm-: you forgot the buyout part 15:56:45 it was definitely successful in the "startup" sense of the word 15:57:01 pjb: he was in a right place in a right time. Guys who coded pets.com also made billions, but one does not make idols out of them 15:57:02 maxm-: "Sell it for billions, sit back, and laugh while they throw away their advantage." 15:57:04 millions, I think 15:57:23 millions make other millions 15:57:24 "sell it for millions, then go and do something interesting or fun" 15:57:44 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.214.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:57:53 not that Graham is not a smart guy, but I find his celebrity kind of out of whack with actual coding accomplishments 15:58:10 the world isn't a meritocracy. 15:58:13 https://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/7529f8db13b88ba3/fbd57c9e672348f5?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=snake+oil+viaweb+group:comp.lang.lisp&pli=1#fbd57c9e672348f5 15:58:40 pkhuong: It can be, with a suitable definition of "merit". 15:58:41 kimdotcom 15:58:46 (search terms worked first time. How's that for an associative memory?) 16:00:02 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.176.185] has joined #lisp 16:00:12 free kimdotcom. hes innocent 16:00:26 ok 16:00:39 and all I read from that thread is "god, RG is an asshole" 16:01:05 cmm: same. 16:01:11 I just think arc is a mistake 16:03:04 cmm: well, yes. https://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/712ae0d4b11c2427?hl=en to counterbalance the Ron linkage 16:03:07 oh it's a different guy 16:03:47 the other thing is "god, Google group's interface gets worse with every passing year" 16:03:58 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:04:02 I think I need to get back to work. App servers don't write and maintain themselves, even if they ARE written in Lisp. 16:04:35 -!- tkellen [~tkellen@68.169.219.4] has left #lisp 16:05:22 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:05:37 cll is like a breeding ground for assholes. 16:06:03 sykopomp: for zombies? You're forgetting to use your killfile otherwise. 16:06:48 I find that not reading c.l.l. is the best killfile. 16:07:12 lol 16:08:25 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 16:08:31 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:09:09 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:11:49 -!- Skola [~bas@89.184.179.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:17:47 macroflope 16:17:52 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.176.185] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 16:18:52 leoncamel [~user@KD175129170046.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:19:37 mathrick [~mathrick@193.59.74.2] has joined #lisp 16:20:31 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-106.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:23:54 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-106.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 16:24:45 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 16:24:46 Fare [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:47 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!*chilubrin@*.50.5646.static.theplanet.com 16:24:48 chilubrin: what on earth are you on about? 16:24:51 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 16:25:30 the world may never know 16:26:15 macroflope is person who keeps rewriting his macros 16:27:03 it was certainly a interesting way to get attention 16:27:17 stop it already, and move on, but no, "there must be one more opportunity to use (curry) that I'm missing" 16:29:08 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.136] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:29:32 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Byebye.] 16:31:55 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:32:35 cmm: he's hiring 16:33:30 http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/q9leu/rlisp_is_there_any_company_left_working_with_lisp/c3vx2s7 16:33:38 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:35:40 Xach: I signed into reddit for the first time in years just to upvote your comment. 16:36:55 kai_ [~kai@e179021093.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:37:56 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 16:38:23 *maxm-* considers removing reddit from /etc/hosts, can someone post one sentence summary of above link, is it sudoing for? 16:38:31 Beginning Google Calendar support in CL-GDATA 16:38:32 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 10.0.2/20120215223356]] 16:38:33 is it worth 16:38:46 I'm wondering the same as maxm- 16:39:28 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has left #lisp 16:39:28 maxm-: RG: "I can't find Lispers to work with me, so I'm using Python for my startup" 16:39:32 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 16:39:47 Bummer 16:40:16 Is he also an asshole in professional environments? 16:40:33 sykopomp: He wrote about being an asshole at google on his blog some time ago 16:41:14 Sorry for asking, but who are you talking about? 16:41:26 Gotta love it when they also -brag- about being pricks. 16:41:41 Hello 16:41:45 Xach: who is that? 16:41:46 sykopomp: I think nothing beats DHH in that area, though 16:41:47 loke: Erann Gat/Ron Garret 16:41:56 oh I see 16:42:02 Xach: Oh. RG on cll? 16:42:08 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 16:42:11 loke: on cll, on reddit, on hacker news, everywhere. 16:42:22 He's not as bad as WJ though 16:42:31 People don't take WJ seriously. 16:42:37 Coming soon to a Python workplace near you. 16:42:38 Some people take RG seriously. 16:42:43 Who's WJ? 16:42:46 Xach: Not as bad as Xah then... 16:42:48 sykopomp: cll troll 16:43:04 would I recognize the acronym expansion? 16:43:05 sykopomp: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/--j-9x9qQKo 16:43:09 example thread of his 16:43:35 -!- chilubrin [~chilubrin@22.50.5646.static.theplanet.com] has left #lisp 16:43:51 -!- drwho [~drwho@216-122-174-206.gci.net] has quit [Quit: work] 16:44:20 uh oh. Is he the NewLisp guy? 16:44:34 When I was at ILC in reno, a little googlebird whispered in my ear "If you're thinking of making something that has a nicer interface than google groups, just wait a while - they're doing a big update soon" 16:44:39 sykopomp: Well, he's the "anything that is not Common Lisp" guy 16:44:50 Now I have a renewed desire to make something with a nicer interface. 16:45:23 sykopomp: He's changing favourite languages faster than Apple makes money 16:45:35 NewLisp is a joke though 16:45:59 Actually, it has some interesting ideas. 16:46:10 Zhivago: you mean fexprs? 16:46:14 Xach: slrn? :) 16:46:29 No. I mean the 'everything has a unique name' bit. 16:46:37 fexprs are old-school. 16:47:03 not lexical ones! 16:47:15 Actually, even lexical ones, iirc. 16:47:39 My understanding was that lexical fexprs were a new development with kernel. 16:47:48 -!- snits [~snits@75-167-2-163.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:48:07 Ah. I was still talking about NewLisp. 16:48:12 hey, I just git cloned the iolib repo, and when I run "grep libe -r ." I don't get stuff for libevent/libev. And it looks like it's hacking it's own kqueue/epoll bindings and stuff. Is there a reason for this? I think libev/libevent make life easy :(. 16:48:27 hacking/custom bindings 16:48:31 Zhivago: well, it seems like WJ has moved on to Clojure now. Why are we talking about newlisp? :-) 16:48:33 phadthai: more for search 16:49:05 dekuked: what's the problem? 16:50:04 dekuked: I think iolib makes life easy. 16:50:23 -!- austinh [~austin@c-24-21-49-222.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:50:24 Xach: have you seen Joey Hess' oldusenet? 16:50:46 for me usockets makes life easy, at least for simple stuff 16:50:50 hmm, I did not know you can do (declare (values fixnum)) in the beginning of a function to declare its value 16:50:53 reddit, the nusenet 16:50:53 well, no problem. I mean maybe I'm inventing a fictional one. I'm just very, very surprised they aren't being used. 16:50:58 Xof_: Not sure. Was that the art project? 16:51:08 no, a day-by-day reposting of old usenet messages 16:51:12 dekuked: you shouldn't be. 16:51:12 so see, you can learn new stuff from c.l.l apparently 16:51:30 Xof_: I think I did, but it struck me more as an art project than anything :) 16:51:39 Ralith: I shouldn't be... surprised? 16:51:45 oh, ok. I suppose so :-) 16:51:49 *Xach* looks again 16:52:04 no, it probably is art 16:52:08 or nostalgia, or something 16:52:17 anyway, must go and move pieces of paper around 16:52:39 a usenet where you're forced to be a lurker rather than being able to correct all of those people who are wrong. the horror! 16:52:40 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:52:41 if it had used libevent instead of the suboptimal kqueue support it had when I tried it, perhaps that I would still use it... however, there were other issues like its accept frontend not returning the user address (to remain compatible to an older Lisp implementation if I remember) 16:53:44 and overzealous custom read/write sanity checking 16:56:22 overzealous ?? 16:56:36 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:56:46 i.e. things that syscalls could report errors for instead of the frontend library 16:56:49 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:57:31 such as ? 16:57:34 i.e. the library doesn't have to care about if the socket is a listening one to call accept on 16:57:42 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 16:57:55 well that interface does have to care for compatibility possibly 16:59:14 anyway, I'm just saying that it was quite confusing for someone who was used to the bsd ipc :) 16:59:41 and unfortunately also suffered a performance penalty by respecting the compatiblity interface 17:00:12 what compatibility interface ? 17:00:36 hmm wasn't it made to be api-compatible with another commercial lisp? I forgot its name 17:00:52 so ? 17:00:54 Sebboh [~hobbes@unaffiliated/sebboh] has joined #lisp 17:00:57 Xach: Is there a reason why the compiler always recompiles (parts of) CXML when I load my project that uses it? 17:00:57 to my knowledge the only compatibility it was designed with in mind was usocket stuff 17:01:05 the emulation thingamajig 17:01:10 well that interface was quite far away from the native bsd one used in most OSs 17:01:14 Xach: it doesn't seem to load the fasls correctly, and it only happens with that library 17:02:18 phadthai: you can use it like a typical BSD socket 17:02:21 dekuked: didn't libev implement its own event queue on top of those interfaces (and that being the main purpose of it?) 17:02:52 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:03:21 -!- BixSqrl [~Bix@c-50-131-212-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:03:23 dekuked: did you mean libev (the threads-like library) or libevent? 17:03:30 phadthai: and one can only successfully call accept on a listening socket, I don't understand what you have against a user-space check 17:03:58 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:04:16 libev is entirely separate from libevent, and adds file i/o handlers as well 17:04:49 phathai: http://software.schmorp.de/pkg/libev.html and http://libev.schmorp.de/bench.html 17:05:09 I somewhat recall gnu pth as initially being based on some libev, possibly it wasn't the same one I was thinking about 17:05:27 dekuked: after a cursory look at libev, I'd say that using it from lisp might be a) hairy b) slow 17:05:31 and according to: http://tinyclouds.org/iocp-links.html (search libev) it even works on windows 17:06:23 libevent works on windows, too, no? 17:06:46 p_l: I don't really know my way around c/cpp or ffi all that well. what makes you say it'd be difficult? anything in particular? 17:06:51 Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 17:06:53 http://www.wangafu.net/~nickm/libevent-book/01_intro.html isearch Windows. 17:06:58 fe[nl]ix: well that was only making the interface harder to learn in my case, not too much of an issue. I'd have to maintain a custom version of accept, or use the underlaying (at least back then non-public) syscall to have accept return the client address without an extra syscall though 17:07:07 sykopomp: I believe so 17:08:06 I don't know what I'm talking about, I just wanted to see if was something worth looking into 17:08:08 and I thought about rewriting the kqueue backend but realized that the frontend abstraction also needed changes to be really optimal with kqueue if I remember, so I didn't really touch that code 17:08:09 dekuked: basically, handling out the event loop to outside *c* library, meaning extra FFI overhead (and all the issues of callbacks from C to Lisp) 17:08:40 not impossible, but when your runtime isn't based around C, it might not be optimal 17:08:49 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:08:59 might be worth a shot. 17:09:17 *sykopomp* wonders how libevent would compare to iolib. 17:09:30 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:09:56 when used from C, libevent is awesome, but I'm not sure how well it would perform with ffi 17:10:21 sykopomp: it seems to me that iolib does a lot more, but it's just the network part that gets a lot of visibility 17:10:38 p_l: I was talking about the networking bit, yes. 17:10:48 which happens to also be the only bit I'm interested in. 17:11:25 Hello. I've started learning lisp a couple weeks ago... Along the way, I'm checking out the clfswm. It's great! But it crashes. http://paste.lisp.org/display/128301 ... How can I respond to SBCL's question? That output is from startx, as you can see. It's non-interactive. Where do I interact with the debugger? (Please correct me if there is a better name for it.) 17:11:34 benny [~benny@i577A34D8.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:11:41 p_l: probably not the best idea, but would it be possible to have libev running in a dedicated thread and notifying cl stuff via ipc or something? I'm probably talking out of my ass here. Probably a much more feasible idea in a few years or so. But I just think it's something worth considering, because going by what I've looked into, cl really only screws up handling events in a quick manner. But maybe that generalization is wrong. 17:12:06 mvilleneuve_ [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:13:05 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:13:06 dekuked: you're wrong. 17:13:13 dekuked: I think it would end up making it even weirder 17:14:00 Sebboh: I'm not sure how you might do it interactively, sorry, but you can interact with the debugger via code (e.g. handler-bind, find-restart, invoke-restart, etc) 17:14:36 -!- Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:15:48 Xach: well if you don't mind me asking, do you know of any performance graphs for cl networking? I'm sure I'm wrong, but I'm just curious how wrong. 17:16:29 dekuked: Nope. 17:16:44 Xach, I've read a little about that. But in this case, as you see in the pastebin.. SBCL is asking me: Abort, Retry, Continue? I'm fine with 'abort'. The action I did was move a window to a frame. ... "Ok, nevermind!" is acceptable. Otherwise, as you can see, I have to ctrl+c out of xwindows. I lose my work. 17:17:12 *p_l* wonders if there's some code, somewhere, that let's him do equivalent of registering an AST, calling $HIBERNATE, and having the process sleep completely till there's anything interesting to wake it up 17:17:24 Sebboh: My answer remains the same 17:17:51 Xach, fair enough. 17:20:07 uh, on another note, has anyone ever done anything with actionscript >= 3.0 and cl? 17:21:02 -!- Jovlang [~user@36.109-247-16.customer.lyse.net] has left #lisp 17:21:44 -!- treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:22:45 BixSqrl [~Bix@c-50-131-212-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:25 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-128-113.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 17:24:08 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:24:34 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:25:19 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:26:33 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:28:58 Sebboh: you could launch an xterm from .xinitrc, then launch clfswm from that (in a screen session for bonus points) 17:29:18 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:30:10 -!- mvilleneuve_ [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:30:45 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@83.240.225.146] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 17:32:21 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c122-106-158-42.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 17:37:18 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.137.26.211] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:45:23 Xach: oh, I did not see the branches went on sf.et as well. 17:45:25 dammit. 17:45:48 Where did you think they went? 17:46:49 github 17:46:57 ah 17:47:06 -!- splittist [d417faa6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.23.250.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:49:06 -!- facefox [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:49:33 facefox [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:49 -!- leoncamel [~user@KD175129170046.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:52:05 *Xach* signs up for slime-devel 17:52:48 Xach: is there a plan to steal some of the features from nix for haskell?: http://nixos.org/nix/ 17:54:04 I didn't have any plans along those lines 17:54:58 -!- ivan-kan` [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:57:06 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp 17:58:22 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 17:58:37 dekuked, for haskell? 18:00:34 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:01:16 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA00D6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:06:13 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:06:19 -!- lain_ [~lain@p5DDBB1C6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 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18:57:28 df_ No, sorry. 1. when clfswm hangs, xwindows hangs, so I'd better do this from a console. 2. I don't understand how to "start clfswm from a terminal". If I did, I think that my problem would be solved. :) 18:57:51 -!- bjonnh [~bjonnh@147.210.71.83] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:58:05 -!- osa1 [~sinan@31.140.111.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:59:19 osa1 [~sinan@31.140.13.248] has joined #lisp 18:59:24 X dies because xinit dies, I think 18:59:33 so the xterm thing may avoid that 18:59:34 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 18:59:43 df_, also, regarding bonus points... I grew up in screen. I'm new to Lisp, not new to *nix. clfswm has a "mood" that is similar to screen. 18:59:48 if not, use a screen session as I said, then you can reattach from a console 18:59:57 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:00:07 df_ ah. Ok, I'll look into it! 19:00:22 as for how to launch it, how are you launching it from startx currently? 19:00:45 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.235.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:02:14 df_, Debian has startup scripts. I'm looking at them now... it looks like xinit just executes x-window-manager .. Ok, I can do that from an xterm. :) 19:02:44 oh, there's a debian package 19:02:45 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-151-55.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:03:18 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 19:03:43 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:03:48 df_, I grabbed the source and built my own debian package. It's stock, but I have the toolchain in place to make a change and rebuild/upgrade on demand. Old habit. ;) 19:03:56 I forgot is ability to use ((val fixnum)) as specializer in a defmethod an sbcl extension or is it portable? 19:04:11 you may be better off doing things in a lispy way 19:04:19 maxm-: clhs fixnum 19:04:28 It's a type, not a class. 19:04:35 clfswm is in quicklisp 19:05:00 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-152-46.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:05:06 pjb: the way I parse you reply is that yes, it is sbcl extension 19:05:13 mensch [~mensch@c-24-128-27-99.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:15 df_ Let's not talk religion; we've only just met. :) 19:05:18 maxm-: not portable. 19:05:19 yes 19:05:26 -!- jjkola_work [c064748e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.116.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:05:52 -!- gkeith_glaptop_ [gkeith@nat/google/x-wpcxqtnxsrztsbps] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:06:34 it's not religion, it's practical (I use debian packages for everything else) 19:07:53 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-128-113.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 19:08:37 -!- facefox [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:09:14 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 19:09:44 facefox [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:41 Xach: a usability enhancement to system-apropos, would be extra arg like :verbose t, which would print description and URL for each system. 19:13:05 maxm-: yeah, I'd really like to make descriptions easily available. 19:13:06 -!- facefox [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:13:46 Xach: use case.. "is there anything for foo" (ql:system-apropos "foo"), then google each of 5 results.. Instead: (ql:system-apropos "foo" :verbose), -> middle click 5 links to open 5 tabs 19:14:02 well actually that would require some kind of slime URL recognizing extension :-\ 19:14:04 -!- aceluck [~aceluck@175.142.141.113] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:16:07 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-151-55.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:16:09 crypto_ [~z0d@q.notresp.com] has joined #lisp 19:16:09 -!- kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@164-177-151-185.static.cloud-ips.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:16:26 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:16:39 ha very first library actually seems useful, cl-color 19:16:40 kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@164-177-151-185.static.cloud-ips.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:16:57 -!- z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:17:26 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-151-55.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:18:36 cbp`` [~user@187.208.0.7] has joined #lisp 19:18:44 -!- crypto_ is now known as z0d 19:18:49 -!- z0d [~z0d@q.notresp.com] has quit [Changing host] 19:18:49 z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 19:19:40 -!- tlw8913 [~tenorplay@205.143.222.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:19:48 -!- TheMue [~TheMue@p5DDF73BE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: TheMue] 19:20:04 FACEFOX [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:06 leoncamel [~user@KD175129170046.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 19:21:06 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 19:23:28 setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.126] has joined #lisp 19:23:40 maxm-: http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/UNOFFICIAL/descriptions.txt 19:24:34 Xach: ah cool. How hard it would be to add url to package homepage? 19:24:34 df_ there is a 'Debian way' to do it your way, I presume. As I mentioned, I built my own clfswm packages. Locally. The result is, I get a big pile of source to play with (your way?) but I ALSO get upgrades, scripts, simple transfer to my other debian machines, etc. When the upstream source change, I can merge it into my source, usually keeping my local modifications. *shrug* It works for me. 19:24:45 descrptions.txt is still not updated. 19:25:22 descriptions.txt was a one-time unofficial snapshot 19:25:49 maxm-: harder than descriptions. system definitions don't have a pre-made slot for home page. 19:25:57 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:25:59 though it does have a slot for arbitrary data. the syntax is a bit ugly. 19:26:08 -!- phaer [~user@chello080108051063.9.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:26:48 Xach: maybe just quick grep for link regexp in order: .asd file, README* 19:28:05 and if QL does that, it will quickly become standard to put package homepage in there 19:28:21 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:28:53 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:29:24 coz honestly 1 sentence descriptions are not that useful in distinguishing between several packages for the same thing... ie "foo is package fo foo" "cl-foo is system for doing foo" "foothy is library helping with foo" 19:30:00 it seems trivial, but look at where caring about trivial usability issue got apple :-) 19:30:10 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:15 it gets better if you have several "foo" projects that claim they're the best way to do foo (: 19:31:03 antifuchs: yup, thats why a URL imho is more useful then short description.. You can qucikly open tabs for 5 projects, and compare level of activity, quality of documentation etc 19:31:35 petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc1-midd16-2-0-cust160.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:32:08 mee [mee@2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:fe96:f382] has joined #lisp 19:32:30 antifuchs: That really happens? ;) *G* 19:33:13 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 19:34:51 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-106.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:37:09 Fare [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:31 Sebboh: it works for you for the C/unix world, which has a clearer separation between source and binary 19:39:06 I'm not saying you can't do things your way, but doing it nicely will take some effort and some learning about how lisp does stuff 19:39:17 and in the meantime the people you might wish to learn from will be doing it their way 19:39:53 shuhari and all that 19:43:53 -!- dtw [dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:47:57 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.245.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:49:42 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-226-44.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 19:50:59 sacho [~sacho@87-126-33-59.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 19:53:50 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA00D6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:55:52 -!- krrrcks [~krrrcks@krrrcks.de] has left #lisp 20:00:41 -!- tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:01:29 -!- cbp`` [~user@187.208.0.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:01:29 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@72-254-80-255.client.stsn.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:02:20 -!- sacho [~sacho@87-126-33-59.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:03:00 sacho [~sacho@87-126-33-59.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 20:04:39 -!- osa1 [~sinan@31.140.13.248] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20:05:02 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:06:15 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-186484.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 20:06:40 *maxm-* quite likes the convention of calling the maker generic for type foo (->foo), ie convert to foo from anything 20:07:24 tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #lisp 20:07:58 have not seen it before.. ie (def (method q) ->rgb ((c QColor)) (make-instance 'rgb :red (c.red) :green (c.green) :blue (c.blue))) 20:08:23 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:10:37 Fare: sorry about the late reply/not being clear, I meant to port some of the ideas from nix, and just that it happened to be in haskell 20:10:43 actually have to use qobject not QColor 20:11:30 phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:11:31 -!- phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Changing host] 20:11:31 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 20:11:38 -!- anonus [anonymous@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:2cc7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:12:58 -!- Bugson [~Bugson@87-204-6-135.ip.netia.com.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:14:14 kilon_alios [~kilon@athedsl-317736.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 20:14:27 which might be a terribly infeasible/idiotic thing to consider, but I was just wondering 20:14:30 I don't think nix is in haskell - they reimplemented their own pure functional language in C++, IIUC 20:15:40 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-186484.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:15:52 dicking around is strong in them 20:15:59 austinh [~austin@c-24-21-49-222.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:00 Fare: yep, you're right, I just assumed it was in haskell. 20:16:53 dekuked, I made the same mistake a few months back 20:17:35 anonus [anonymous@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:2cc7] has joined #lisp 20:17:58 I don't think there's a lot of point reinventing nixos just for Lisp packages -- maybe actually using nixos, extending it, fixing it, and/or porting lisp software to it might be more useful. 20:18:09 that said I'm trying out nixos right now now 20:19:29 Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 20:20:19 Pattern matching? 20:20:23 what's nixos? 20:23:10 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable151.155-57-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:23:28 meh, to me "purely functional" screams "straitjacket of discipline". I like functional programming, but... 20:23:59 Fare: according to traditional wisdom (and my own intuition), system config is not necessarily the best place to put development things - how does nixos deal with that? 20:24:25 (for example, debian's forever-outdated anything-other-than-perl packages) 20:24:30 antifuchs: I see "multiuser" in nixos' front page. 20:24:42 as in, per-user isolated installations. 20:24:53 antifuchs, I don't know. This is my first day with nixos. 20:24:57 that's not usually my primary problem, but that sounds nice 20:25:08 clj_newb [~detryo@80.174.238.14.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 20:25:12 but yes, each user can have his own gcc toolchain 20:25:29 -!- clj_newb [~detryo@80.174.238.14.dyn.user.ono.com] has left #lisp 20:25:41 basically, each user or daemon can use its own set of libraries. 20:26:29 Cosman246, what pattern matching? 20:26:33 sounds neat! certainly better than the hoops puppet must jump through (: 20:26:49 We used to call that static linking 20:27:01 df_ As you and I converse on this subject, we're both making assumptions about what the other knows. I, for one, am feeling pissed. Your assumptions insult my intelligence. *sigh* Experience tells me that my assumptions probably insult you. It's hard for me to drop it... I've put a lot of work into how I maintain my workstation. Dumping code into my home directory is NOT going to happen. At least hundreds of thousands of manhours went into my packa 20:27:09 Fare: I saw some old messages, and it looked like pattern matching syntax 20:27:31 pjb: static linking doesn't give you the option of still sharing when desired versions happen to be the same. 20:27:37 what with -> 20:27:54 -!- inaimathi [~inaimathi@174.137.255.113] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:27:56 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483AC86.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:29:16 if only the manual didn't 503 20:29:28 sounds nice anyway, will keep an eye on it 20:31:01 regarding ugliness in the slime repl while compiling - it doesn't seem to be caused by transient-mark-mode but by show-paren-mode 20:31:08 it's not actually a region being created 20:31:46 Bugson [~Bugson@87-204-6-135.ip.netia.com.pl] has joined #lisp 20:31:48 and it's the same color as show-paren-mode highlights, and turning it off seems to help 20:32:04 I suppose detailed discussion of nixos should go to #nixos 20:32:57 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:33:43 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA00D6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:34:49 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:35:15 static-vectors with displaced arrays is really nifty 20:36:30 Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:25 ChibaPet [~ChibaPet@fsf/member/chibapet] has joined #lisp 20:37:31 fredson [~user@p579319B4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:40 Yuuhi [benni@p5483AC86.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:56 s0ber_ [~s0ber@114-36-245-37.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:05 impulse32 [~impulse@65.92.153.91] has joined #lisp 20:40:03 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-243-39.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:40:06 -!- FACEFOX [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:40:15 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 20:41:04 its secondary selection color, /me seen in getting turned sporadically too 20:41:21 I think it just bound to something I press by accident once every few weeks 20:42:11 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 20:42:19 -!- Bugson [~Bugson@87-204-6-135.ip.netia.com.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:42:31 -!- go_epsilon_go [bbb1e891@gateway/web/freenode/ip.187.177.232.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:42:48 FACEFOX [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:26 drdo [~user@85.207.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 20:46:27 molbdnilo [~Ove@c80-216-198-111.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:48:02 Sebboh: if you would prefer, I can limit my assistance to pure information, without suggestions that I feel (based on my assumptions) would help you 20:48:25 and your last comment was truncated btw 20:50:34 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:54:38 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@ip98-169-80-239.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:56:00 Bugson [~Bugson@87-204-6-135.ip.netia.com.pl] has joined #lisp 20:56:50 -!- Fare [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:59:40 Comparing to #lisp geriatric pedantistry the freewheeling hippies of #emacs are such a contrast: current topic seems to be bestiality puns 21:00:21 -!- molbdnilo [~Ove@c80-216-198-111.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: molbdnilo] 21:01:31 at my pedantistry practice I employee only the friendliest macro hygenists 21:02:03 TimKack [~user@c-2ec21f01-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 21:03:58 -!- sacho [~sacho@87-126-33-59.btc-net.bg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:05:04 sacho [~sacho@87-126-33-59.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 21:07:15 maxm-: we try to make #lisp work safe. 21:07:19 #emacs isn't. 21:07:48 Of course, emacs is probably used at work more than lisp 21:12:30 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:15:33 Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.103.172] has joined #lisp 21:16:19 -!- fredson [~user@p579319B4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:17:16 -!- Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.103.172] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:17:27 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.189.127] has joined #lisp 21:18:03 fredson [~user@p579319B4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:47 Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.103.172] has joined #lisp 21:19:20 -!- fredson [~user@p579319B4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:19:45 maxm-: could be an interesting start 21:20:01 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:22:20 colonel_panic [~Adium@71-84-33-22.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:22:47 -!- thebope [~thebope@pdpc/supporter/student/thebope] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:23:31 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:24:32 -!- mensch [~mensch@c-24-128-27-99.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:25:11 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:26:35 -!- kilon_alios [~kilon@athedsl-317736.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:26:36 Xach: you mean grepping for http://? or my offtopictry 21:28:42 another great Slime idea I have is this grand unification of inspector, *slime-description* and slime xref..Why to remove a method, you have to go to inspector for the function. To quickly lookup method, you do slime-goto-definition, which brings you the crossref if its a method, but from there you can't remove them 21:28:57 makes no sense 21:29:49 If you're heading in that direction, how about a way to fmakunbound or makunbound on a definition? 21:30:29 nyef: i just wrote custom functions to do that 21:30:36 maxm-: grepping 21:30:37 Ahh. 21:30:50 nyef: yea that too.. Plus some kind of mini-markup parsing of documentation scripts, at minimum make all-caps links that open inspector for symbol/function/method 21:30:57 s/scripts/strings/ 21:31:11 *maxm-* does not have any code yet, just kind of a set of todos 21:31:19 -!- antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1177890292.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:31:20 er you can fmakunbound, but i just added ones for unintern and makunbound 21:32:03 antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1177890292.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:32:09 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-81-146.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:32:39 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-81-146.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 21:33:22 *maxm-* realizes with horror he's like newt gingrich, full of grandiose ideas, 1 in 5 may be good :-) 21:34:03 That's optimistic. :) 21:34:14 What you really want is one function to just "do the right thing" to undefine something. 21:35:54 df_: No, I suppose that I want suggestions, too. In any case, I feel fine now and the truncated part of my message isn't important. In other news, thank you #lisp for introducing me to the nix package manager. Looks promising. 21:37:20 daniel__1 [~daniel@p5082B762.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:01 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-234-226.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:47 -!- mgodshall [~quassel@76.161.200.249] has quit [Quit: gurgle gurgle] 21:39:44 -!- daniel__2 [~daniel@p5082ABF4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:41:21 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:43:44 kmcorbett1 [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp 21:45:03 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 21:45:26 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA00D6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:46:23 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-179.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:46:32 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.189.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:46:46 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:48:02 -!- kai_ [~kai@e179021093.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:48:08 -!- kmcorbett1 [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:48:14 -!- dekuked [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:48:35 cbp`` [~user@187.208.0.7] has joined #lisp 21:50:05 hi, does anybody know how to pass a batch of SQL commands to Postmodern? when I try query, it falls to prepared statement: "Database error 42601: cannot insert multiple commands into a prepared statement" 21:50:31 molbdnilo [~Ove@c80-216-198-111.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:52:57 -!- Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:53:46 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:53:49 kai_ [~kai@f052097214.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:55:57 hm.. quick parenscript question, (who-ps-html (:a :href (generate-a-link) "blorg")) fails with "undefined function generate-a-link", even though the parenscript manual shows that this should work. i run it in package parenscript, any hints what is wrong here? using the quicklisp parenscript 21:56:34 -!- molbdnilo [~Ove@c80-216-198-111.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: molbdnilo] 21:57:15 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 21:58:41 puchacz: you may want exec-query, which is at a lower level (cl-postgres). 21:58:57 felidon: tried that.... 22:04:16 rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:04:21 Dan23 [~Dan@209-6-147-170.c3-0.bkl-ubr1.sbo-bkl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:07:19 tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.148.195.20] has joined #lisp 22:09:49 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has joined #lisp 22:10:20 anybody got any good tutorials for the absolute newbie? 22:10:32 slyrus [~chatzilla@65.127.208.182] has joined #lisp 22:10:33 http://cliki.net/ 22:10:46 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.172.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:10:58 Thanks mucho 22:12:26 -!- Sebboh [~hobbes@unaffiliated/sebboh] has quit [Quit: restart x] 22:12:55 Dan23: what's your background knowledge? what have you programmed so far? 22:13:17 -!- FACEFOX [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:13:18 madnificent, I do a lot of python work. I know a decent amount of Java, but python's my main area of expertise. 22:14:09 FACEFOX [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:51 Dan23: you'll likely want to read "practical common lisp" available in print, or free online 22:15:10 Dan23: it's a nicely written book which covers many lisp topics in a short time 22:15:30 madnificent, cool, I'll check it out 22:15:46 enjoy your stay 22:15:56 is there a good way of composing functions using cl-who? i have been passing around a stream and used with-html-output in each such function so far. is there a better way? 22:17:11 dto [~user@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:58 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:18:51 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 22:19:02 *madnificent* doesn't like printing to streams for such output 22:21:11 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:21:40 A :homepage DEFSYSTEM option in ASDF would be nice indeed. I opened a feature request for it: https://bugs.launchpad.net/asdf/+bug/953489 22:22:11 do you guys use lisp for web development? or is it not really geared toward that? 22:22:29 Use http://cliki.net/ 22:22:36 It says all about it. 22:22:36 i suppose i could use a dynamic variable for the stream so i don't have to pass it around. my other issue was that i had to remember to set indentation for each usage of W-H-O - but I suppose I could use a dynamic variable for that, too. 22:23:05 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178-223-128-113.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:25:50 -!- asdfhjkl [~bob@i5E879AE1.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:26:55 serichsen [~user@hmbg-5f76045d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:01 Good evening! 22:28:12 Dan23: i use lisp for web development, it's quite awesome. sadly, it's so awesome that there's no single web framework which everyone uses. 22:29:08 madnificent, ah. I just got my company to transition over to django about 6 months ago, so I doubt they'd want to change gears again anyway. But it's good to know that I'll be learning something at least tangentally related to my career. 22:29:16 Which framework do you use? 22:29:34 Xach: There is an interesting encoding problem on planet.lisp.org: Didier Verna's last post has a link at the end which seems to get garbled. "~d" gets transformed to "%EF%BF%BD". 22:32:32 Dan23: like many, i kind-of have my own. most people use hunchentoot with an html expansion library. many people build their own html expansion library (like me). once you know a little lisp, or if you just want to start toying around with writing stuff for the web, give me a shout about it. 22:32:54 madnificent: cool, will do :) 22:33:03 Dan23: actually, i'm writing a new expansion library right now :) s-expressions are nicer than xml/html imo 22:34:39 urandom__ [~user@p548A5FD4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:57 cool, parenscript and extjs work nicely! and who-ps-html *is* great 22:35:53 Anyone tried out Mike Travers' heroku-buildpack-cl? 22:36:14 pnq [~nick@ACA235CD.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 22:37:45 Kenjin: nope, but many people seem to have cloned the project 22:38:01 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 22:38:44 madnificent: indeed ;) I was wondering because I've been playing with it, trying to use sbcl and hunchentoot. But something is going wrong and heroku is not terribly verbose about it 22:39:11 daem0n [~yaargh@host-89-241-100-80.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:11 -!- daem0n [~yaargh@host-89-241-100-80.as13285.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:39:11 daem0n [~yaargh@unaffiliated/mryaargh] has joined #lisp 22:39:33 Kenjin: ah, sorry then. come to think of it, i think i saw your name in the clone list. 22:39:35 blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-45763eb0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:00 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-108-110.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:22 puchacz: I ran into the "multiple commands" thing myself, but what I ended up doing was breaking things up into single commands. 22:43:23 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@65.127.208.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:43:49 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-45763eb0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:44:04 nyef: clsql could do it 22:44:20 probably completely different low-level library 22:45:33 I'm generally not too fussed about it, really. The only place I tried to do it was in my schema setup, and I can quite easily live with breaking that up into multiple independent statements. 22:46:41 serichsen: really? i don't see that 22:48:30 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 22:49:59 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:54:23 puchacz: a prepared statement is by definition a single statement. Is the DB even capable of accepting multiple prepared statements simultaneously from a single connection? 22:54:53 Ralith: this is why I did not want Postmodern to send my query as prepared statement 22:55:11 why not simply send a series of prepared statements in sequence? 22:55:19 or unprepared, if you must. 22:55:21 because I have a batch file 22:55:41 I would love to know what command sends unprepared statements in Postmodern 22:56:25 but, like nyef, I am not that bothered.... 22:57:35 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@69.199.88.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:59:49 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:02:57 -!- kai_ [~kai@f052097214.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:03:26 -!- cbp`` [~user@187.208.0.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:04:56 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:08:42 kai_ [~kai@e177090122.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:11:08 #|TMPL_VAR xyz|# 23:12:55 Farzad` [~farzadbek@46.225.103.230] has joined #lisp 23:13:09 -!- Farzad` is now known as Farzad_Away 23:14:19 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 23:14:39 -!- Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.103.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:15:07 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@193.59.74.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:17:10 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-174-201.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:17:57 tensorpudding__ [~michael@99.148.203.91] has joined #lisp 23:18:50 well, now I'll have something to put as my effort for spreading CL :3 23:19:18 -!- TimKack [~user@c-2ec21f01-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has left #lisp 23:19:42 *p_l* is going to do a workshop in Warsaw two weeks from now 23:21:23 -!- tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.148.195.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:25:22 -!- tensorpudding__ is now known as tensorpudding 23:25:44 wuj [~wuj@207-237-2-224.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:25:44 whats the difference between sb-pcl and ab-mop? they seem to have the same things inside 23:26:11 sb-mop* 23:26:11 ab-mop being abcls? 23:26:12 -!- kai_ [~kai@e177090122.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:26:15 ah, sb-mop 23:26:23 Farzad_Away: they are related heavily 23:26:27 sb-pcl is the implementation. 23:27:32 so i should be using sb-pcl when toying with mop stuff? 23:31:07 no. You should be using SB-MOP. 23:31:35 kai_ [~kai@e177088036.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:32:19 -!- bondar [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:32:48 bondar [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 23:33:38 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.203.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:34:08 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:34:37 -!- leoncamel [~user@KD175129170046.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:34:43 leoncamel [~user@KD175129170046.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:34:43 KDr2 [~kdr2@123.122.111.196] has joined #lisp 23:34:45 Vivitron` [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:03 tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.203.91] has joined #lisp 23:35:06 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:35:15 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:38:38 killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has joined #lisp 23:39:56 zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:18 -!- agumonkey [agumonkey@143.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:49:21 how about closer-mop? 23:50:46 you're right. "You should not be using SB-PCL" (: 23:51:59 -!- KDr2 [~kdr2@123.122.111.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:55:33 -!- salvi [~vukung@catv-80-98-247-63.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:56:49 -!- asvil` [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]