00:00:16 urandom__ [~user@p548A496D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:00:18 fe[nl]ix: isn't that what the groveller is for? 00:00:27 fe[nl]ix: fixed in CVS. 00:01:36 ah, ok. I'll wait for antifuchs's git to update 00:01:38 -!- malbertife [malbertife@bl7-33-152.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:01:48 Ralith: it doesn't work well 00:02:01 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:02:08 okay then. 00:02:53 the other reason is that I wanted to write a portable & better version of posix_spawn 00:03:25 and for GC reasons, it's better if the code run between fork() and exec() is written in C 00:05:18 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483AB2B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:05:19 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-188-217.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:19 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-188-217.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 00:05:19 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 00:06:48 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-139-82.as43234.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:07:14 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-139-82.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:10 realitygrill [~realitygr@67-194-85-102.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 00:22:46 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-192-175.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:23:39 _schulte_ [~eschulte@ip98-169-80-239.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:05 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@ip98-169-80-239.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:28:06 -!- yates [c05b42bd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.91.66.189] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:28:32 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:28:49 has anybody written an interface for working with libev? I did a ql:system-apropos to no avail 00:29:33 you want iolib. 00:31:27 and you want to read iolib's code ^_- 00:31:47 is this inaccurate?: http://lists.common-lisp.net/pipermail/iolib-devel/2009-October/000292.html 00:31:59 it certainly seems to misuse kqueue going by that 00:32:13 -!- dru1d [~lukasz@ip-82-177-172-217.net.azartsat.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:34:26 malbertife [malbertife@bl7-33-152.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 00:36:32 I can think of one way to find out. 00:39:29 Well, I don't a have *bsd box atm, and kqueue for os x isn't exactly up to par, so I was hoping to find out by someone who knows about the siutation. 00:40:25 I bet the source code knows! 00:42:11 of the performance? 00:44:45 did you read the message you linked? 00:46:53 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@67-194-85-102.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 00:47:00 apparently not. 00:49:23 Ralith: sorry about that, thanks for pointing that out. 00:49:48 no worries 00:50:20 dekuked: guy who wrote that knew what he was doing 00:51:17 dekuked: also, what do you want to do with iolib? 00:51:19 kpal [~kpal@5ac28f67.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 00:51:45 dekuked: in any case I don't think you need to be worrying about serving 10k clients.. People ridiculously preoptimize stuff. You should concentrate on having Lisp help you write an application, that will generate a userbase, that would load your webserver with 10k users 00:51:45 -!- gigamonkey [~pseibel@adsl-108-200-141-229.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 00:52:12 and then rewrite it in C++ 00:52:41 once you actually have users, you can use clustering / caching / other stuff to help you out. Having your code clean, understandable, and easy to change, from the beginning, will be 100% more helpful, then trying to start with something that handles 10k users 00:52:43 not necessarily 00:52:54 (that was to stassats) 00:53:24 premature optimization is the biggest time waster ever 00:54:15 note that this guy said CLOS was not really that big of a contributor to slowdown, bad design was 00:54:38 so use CLOS. CLOS will help you avoid bad design, or will make refactoring into a better design easier 00:55:06 *maxm-* goes back to coding after dispensing wisdom :-) 00:55:10 well, thinking about performance can be useful... but unless your project is writing a server (and not the application logic behind it), getting too much into this area is bad (Making it use evented architecture might pay off, but not mucking around with details) 00:55:17 dekuked: not sure what you want to do, but conserv manages ~20k reqs/s singlethreaded http requests on a modern server. so i wouldn't be too scared at first, you can refactor and make things fast if need be. 00:55:49 madnificent: conserv? 00:56:15 p_l: yet another web server, this is one that sykopomp is writing 00:57:43 ah 00:57:53 personally I'm looking into using mongrel2 00:58:28 this?: https://github.com/sykopomp/conserv 00:58:34 that 00:58:59 dekuked: it's not finished yet. i'm just saying that you shouldn't be scared too soon. 00:59:06 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-147-91.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:00:18 okay, I'll look into it. I'm just curious, primarily because of this: http://www.yesodweb.com/blog/2011/03/preliminary-warp-cross-language-benchmarks 01:01:31 but I've always read lispers talking about how quickly they can iterate, which is why I've been looking into cl 01:01:59 dekuked: conserv might get there if the header parsing gets multithreaded 01:02:19 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.159.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:02:29 until then, the comparison is borked. node uses a single core too, for instance. so it's cool that haskell uses all cores and all, but it's also a rather dull comparison 01:02:48 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-116-245.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 01:03:09 especially when running on the large ec2. i'm guessing that that's running on octacore 01:04:26 dekuked: you shouldn't be scared that lisp will give you unsolvable issues if speed ever becomes an issue, sbcl is quite fast. 01:05:01 hefner [~hefner@c-69-255-57-56.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:13 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:08:24 MrBusiness [~MrBusines@184.99.7.19] has joined #lisp 01:09:32 i can use assembly in my lisp, so all your benchmarks become irrelevant 01:11:43 So, someone in another channel is making a lisp 01:11:45 madnificent: okay, well I'm glad to hear that I'm putting the cart before the horses. I mean, I know I really am because I barely know cl/unix, but I just want to make sure that I can use these things when/if I ever get to that point. As maxm said, it is quite a bit of preoptimization for something that may never get there, but I'd like to think that no part of CL is going to hold me back. 01:11:53 ...hosted on C++ templates. 01:12:31 the only part that can hold you back is you 01:12:43 the unthinkable is unknowable. 01:12:51 The only limit is yourself! 01:13:41 -!- malbertife [malbertife@bl7-33-152.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [] 01:13:56 Hacks and glory await! 01:15:49 -!- Ralith [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:16:51 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has joined #lisp 01:17:29 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:18:41 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-107-035-184.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:20:01 -!- kai_ [~kai@e179023029.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:20:02 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:21:11 dekuked: it's not premature to use a language which could scale, if it was needed, given that it has enough expressive power. lisp has both. though i wouldn't try to get your software itself up to that speed when you begin. premature optimization will effectively kill your project. 01:21:52 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A496D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:22:09 Sgeo link? 01:22:29 No linky, just mentioned on IRC 01:22:31 #esoteric 01:22:49 common lisp? or just a thing with parenthesis 01:23:00 I assume just a thing with parentheses 01:23:27 -!- hefner [~hefner@c-69-255-57-56.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: hmm, hacking is more fun] 01:25:07 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-188-217.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:07 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-188-217.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:25:07 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 01:25:40 kai_ [~kai@e179003023.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 01:26:51 -!- Inode [~inode@time.uk.chromedpork.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:30:17 cle [~gusgus@pool-71-251-116-70.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:43 Sgeo: nihil novi sub sole. There was something like that long ago, that added a bit of crazy broken lisp to C++ in form of templates 01:35:51 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.16] has joined #lisp 01:39:37 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:01 Is equal a generic function? (I doubt it). If not, how can I make a hash table that accepts my objects with a custom comparison operator? 01:42:20 Sgeo: EQUAL is not 01:42:30 you can look it up in CLHS, you know 01:42:46 Sgeo: There isn't a built-in way. There are libraries for it. 01:46:08 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-153-19.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:49:55 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:57:13 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@205.233.87.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:58:20 lemoinem [~swoog@205.233.81.228] has joined #lisp 02:11:26 -!- SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:12:40 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:13:37 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable151.155-57-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:18:30 In particular, "genhash" is such a library. 02:19:03 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA101B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:20:26 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:52 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.132.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:28:10 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 02:29:08 lqgr00ve [~liquigroo@unaffiliated/lqgr00ve] has joined #lisp 02:40:07 Sgeo: some of the lisp implementations themselves add more options to make-hash-table that allow you to extend the native hashtables with your own hashing & comparison functions 02:41:44 -!- ered [~ered@108-201-125-162.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:42:49 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-181-146.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:43:02 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-181-146.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:43:43 ered [~ered@108-201-125-162.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:13 -!- lqgr00ve [~liquigroo@unaffiliated/lqgr00ve] has left #lisp 02:45:16 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-192-175.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:45:34 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-192-175.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:53:48 I guess I can't make a variable that errors if something attempts to evaluate it, can it? 02:54:16 *Sgeo* is still thinking lazily 02:54:30 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:54:40 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-188-217.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:40 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-188-217.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 02:54:40 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 02:54:41 you can, make it unbound 02:54:41 (let ((a '(error "error"))) (eval a))? 02:55:21 Sgeo: common lisp is not a lazy language. first learn it, then figure out how to make it lazy. 02:56:13 -!- ered [~ered@108-201-125-162.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:56:28 ered [~ered@108-201-125-162.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:24 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:00:51 y3di [~y3di@c-76-117-145-92.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:06 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:35 lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:46 How bad an idea is eval, exactly? 03:07:15 Sgeo: totally bad. don't use it. 03:07:52 Sgeo: if you're tempted to use it, you have not understood enough of common lisp and need to learn it more. 03:07:52 it's one letter from EVIL not without a reason 03:08:24 stassats: there. not you get to explain the reason! 03:08:33 now even 03:09:08 *kpreid* grumbles at H4ns 03:09:18 the badness of eval is extremely context-dependent 03:10:07 I would rather say: it is best used as a last resort 03:10:58 it's the best thing if what you really want is to evaluate arbitrary lisp code 03:10:59 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:11:19 -!- impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442207.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:11:37 So, I guess wanting something to be a function rather than a macro is not a sufficient reason 03:11:38 ? 03:11:43 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-116-245.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:11:49 ... definitely 03:11:54 without further context, that's a terrible reason 03:12:05 now, perhaps you could tell us what this macro-or-function actually *does* 03:12:28 Restart with a gensym as a name 03:12:55 restart what? 03:13:03 Make a restart, I mean 03:13:04 impulse32 [~impulse@65.95.107.248] has joined #lisp 03:13:22 I still haven't plotted out exactly what I'm doing 03:14:30 if you're still doing shift/reset using the condition system, then forget about it 03:15:09 it does appear to be the case that you can't do that without eval. (whether you *should* do that is another question entirely) 03:15:32 stassats, :( 03:16:12 if you are looking for controllable nonlocal exits, I would suggest using block/return-from instead; it's very flexible 03:16:30 kpreid, I want re-entrances too though 03:16:31 build your own dynamic environment with (lambda () (return-from blockname)) 03:16:47 kruhft [~user@S0106002401f331bd.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:16:56 dekuked: wrt your warp link: it sounds from skimming it that they didn't use node.js' ability to spread across multiple cores. If you assume you'll get a 4x speedup, that would put it very near warp's performance. 03:16:57 Sgeo: restarts don't do that, they just happen to have the same name 03:17:06 so add your own name table which has the semantics you want 03:17:30 ...I thought that's exactly what restarts did. Continue restart, etc 03:17:38 er, hm, I'm confused, sorry 03:18:02 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 03:18:07 Vicfred [~Futaba@189.228.22.127] has joined #lisp 03:18:14 *kpreid* reads clhs restart-case 03:18:17 no, I'm not confused 03:18:40 restarts transfer control _upward_ to the restart-case (or with-simple-restart etc) form 03:18:55 But doesn't invoke-restart go downwards? 03:18:58 if there's a "continue" restart, that's something that's being implemented by the code *around* it 03:19:12 no, it goes up to an enclosing restart-case 03:22:10 Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-44-124.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 03:24:51 KDr2 [~kdr2@114.243.228.182] has joined #lisp 03:29:23 -!- ered [~ered@108-201-125-162.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:29:42 ered [~ered@108-201-125-162.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:57 But... I don't get it 03:40:14 wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-68-173-17-122.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:41:50 you'll have to ask a clarifying question, then 03:42:56 Or read more 03:43:20 I suggest looking at some code that actually uses restarts 03:44:13 -!- kruhft [~user@S0106002401f331bd.cg.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 03:44:34 kruhft [~user@S0106002401f331bd.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:48:34 -!- impulse32 [~impulse@65.95.107.248] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:50:11 -!- kruhft [~user@S0106002401f331bd.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:50:23 impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442142.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:50:31 -!- kai_ [~kai@e179003023.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:52:10 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:54:12 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM1-115-17-118.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:54:36 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA27444.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:57:53 kpreid, when I do handler-bind or handler-case, does the function that is run conceptually get run below the restart-case? 03:59:02 cbp` [~user@187.208.0.7] has joined #lisp 04:00:54 pnq [~nick@ACA27444.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 04:01:32 kruhft [~user@S0106002401f331bd.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:17:39 -!- kruhft [~user@S0106002401f331bd.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:18:40 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:22:58 can case not be used on quoted data? 04:23:15 oh, erp nm 04:23:55 kruhft [~user@S0106002401f331bd.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:51 teggi [~teggi@123.21.160.39] has joined #lisp 04:34:48 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@205.233.81.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:35:53 lemoinem [~swoog@205.233.81.77] has joined #lisp 04:37:13 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:38:02 antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1177890406.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 04:39:00 -!- rme [rme@833E80F1.333FC83A.699BA7A6.IP] has quit [Quit: rme] 04:39:00 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.184.114] has quit [Quit: rme] 04:44:22 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.132.159] has joined #lisp 04:46:13 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-181-146.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:47:48 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:50:15 xjrn [~chatzilla@c-67-174-244-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:52:02 -!- Riz_L [~Riz_Lapto@adsl-75-57-170-76.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:53:00 Riz_L [~Riz_Lapto@75.57.166.85] has joined #lisp 04:54:52 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-181-146.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:59:37 -!- Riz_L [~Riz_Lapto@75.57.166.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:06:26 drwho [~drwho@78-5.trans.uaf.edu] has joined #lisp 05:08:11 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128212186.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:15:11 hefner [~hefner@c-69-255-57-56.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:26:46 leo2007 [~leo@114.249.196.165] has joined #lisp 05:34:43 -!- lebro [~monx@ool-18bc4a28.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:36:01 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-68-173-17-122.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 05:37:50 -!- antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1177890406.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:38:15 -!- wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-181-146.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:38:55 nitro_id_ [~nitro_idi@EM49-252-106-98.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:39:32 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM1-115-17-118.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:41:09 Riz_Lappy [~Riz_Lapto@adsl-75-57-166-85.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:51:13 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:53:25 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:56:14 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.235.228] has joined #lisp 05:59:15 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:01:14 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 06:05:47 fantasticsid [~user@178.18.16.11] has joined #lisp 06:07:30 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 06:09:30 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:09:54 -!- fantasticsid [~user@178.18.16.11] has quit [Client Quit] 06:14:50 realitygrill [~realitygr@69.212.127.115] has joined #lisp 06:16:54 fantasticsid [~user@178.18.16.11] has joined #lisp 06:17:30 Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 06:21:00 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.132.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:24:21 -!- y3di [~y3di@c-76-117-145-92.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:24:30 -!- fantasticsid [~user@178.18.16.11] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:29:07 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-183-24.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:29:38 -!- naryl [~weechat@188.134.95.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:34:49 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.58.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:40:21 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-139-82.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:40:34 easy-iPad [~easyipad@213.47.71.36] has joined #lisp 06:41:47 -!- nitro_id_ [~nitro_idi@EM49-252-106-98.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:42:22 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM49-252-106-98.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:44:02 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178-223-128-113.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:45:05 nitro_id_ [~nitro_idi@EM49-252-106-98.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:45:39 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA27444.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:45:54 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM49-252-106-98.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:46:30 naryl [~weechat@188.134.95.93] has joined #lisp 06:49:24 -!- nitro_id_ [~nitro_idi@EM49-252-106-98.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:49:55 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM49-252-106-98.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:50:11 -!- easy-iPad [~easyipad@213.47.71.36] has quit [Quit: Outta here?] 06:51:14 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:51:27 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 06:54:44 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM49-252-106-98.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:02:30 -!- drwho [~drwho@78-5.trans.uaf.edu] has quit [Quit: bbl] 07:03:18 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 07:06:11 -!- SHODAN [~shozan@c-a9b1e253.011-86-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:07:14 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-228-126.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:47 SHODAN [~shozan@c-a9b1e253.011-86-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 07:08:06 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-116-245.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 07:10:49 momo-reina [~user@aa20111001946f573a3c.userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:11:50 febeling [~febeling@e179073011.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:11:53 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-228-126.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:12:16 -!- febeling [~febeling@e179073011.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 07:15:28 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-181-146.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:17:02 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-152-17.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:17:25 -!- prip [~foo@host241-133-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:18:41 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #lisp 07:20:03 y3di [~y3di@c-76-117-145-92.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:25:40 -!- easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has left #lisp 07:25:57 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 07:26:27 -!- y3di [~y3di@c-76-117-145-92.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:26:52 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-149-76.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 07:28:38 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.61.89] has joined #lisp 07:28:38 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.61.89] has quit [Changing host] 07:28:38 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 07:30:21 -!- easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:31:13 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:31:38 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 07:31:57 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 07:33:30 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@cpe-76-183-81-208.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 07:36:15 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-58-165-252-158.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:36:16 wildnux [~wildnux@cpe-76-183-81-208.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:36:54 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:37:54 -!- cbp` [~user@187.208.0.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:38:16 Is there a way to capture the entirety of the current dynamic environment? 07:40:20 -!- impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442142.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:40:35 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.106.180] has joined #lisp 07:42:48 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.132.159] has joined #lisp 07:44:14 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 07:44:51 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 07:49:09 -!- Patzy [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:51:30 moah [~gnu@dslb-178-006-217-035.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:52:17 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.106.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:52:37 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.106.180] has joined #lisp 07:56:09 Sgeo: what do you mean by "capture"? 07:56:14 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-153-19.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: sleep] 07:56:46 loke, the status of all dynamically-scoped variables, for instance. I want to hold that all in a variable 08:01:53 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 08:02:39 Sgeo: well, you can loop over them: (loop for x being each symbol in 'package-name ...) 08:02:58 Hmm 08:03:31 This prints all dynamically bound symbols in CL: 08:03:31 (loop for x being each symbol in 'cl when (boundp x) do (print x)) 08:05:21 you might want to do collect x instead of (print x) but you get the drift. 08:06:32 I guess there's no way to examine unwind-protect stuff, is there? 08:06:43 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl6-228-38.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 08:06:48 loke, in case you're wondering, I do in fact have plans to do something very stupid, why do you ask? 08:07:15 Sgeo: what do you mean by "examine unwind-protect"? 08:07:48 I wasn't about to ask 08:07:48 Within the dynamic environment established by unwind-protect, executing the code that's meant to be run after the stack is unwound without unwinding the stack 08:08:48 Sgeo: I see. that would indeed be stupid. That said, it's not possible. For many reasons. One being that that code would compiled in as part of the enclosing function and thus have certain assumptions on the state of the stack. 08:09:23 Or, you could say that it's dependent on lexical scope of the unwind-protect form, and thus is not available to you. 08:09:47 Sgeo: But whatever it is that you want to do, there just has to be a "proper" way to do it. 08:10:17 nepnux [~wildnux@cpe-76-183-81-208.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:10:41 loke, delimited continuations. Do code-walkers count as the "proper" way, because I'm going to see if I can do it without 08:10:57 Sgeo: code-walkers are "proper" enough :-) 08:11:10 If you want to limit yourself to SBCL, then SB-WALKING is amazingly neat 08:11:14 SB-WALKER even 08:12:34 If I wanted delimited continuations implemented with a code-walker, I'd reach for cl-cont 08:12:35 >.> 08:12:52 *Sgeo* goes to look at SB-WALKER though 08:12:59 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@cpe-76-183-81-208.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:14:12 -!- gz` [gz@clozure-123267BA.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout] 08:17:24 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-396088.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 08:18:25 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-183-24.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:18:30 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-174-201.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:18:45 Sgeo: here's an example I just whipped up. It changes any calls to SETQ to MY-SETQ: 08:19:19 http://paste.lisp.org/display/128258 08:19:46 Neat, eh? 08:20:34 Hmm, interesting 08:21:44 Why does everyone use #' in front of lambdas? 08:23:12 Sgeo: why not? 08:23:32 To me, it's much more clear. Also, (lambda ...) always expands into #'(lambda ...) anyway 08:23:39 its unambiguous 08:24:11 Sgeo: also, "everyone" doesn't do that. I'd say I'm probably in the minority 08:25:02 drwho [~drwho@216-122-174-206.gci.net] has joined #lisp 08:31:19 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl6-228-38.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 08:33:16 cage [~keiji@FLH1Aaq228.fko.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 08:33:38 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-212-35.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:34:06 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM49-252-106-98.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:34:37 -!- momo-reina [~user@aa20111001946f573a3c.userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:36:59 -!- cage [~keiji@FLH1Aaq228.fko.mesh.ad.jp] has left #lisp 08:39:19 -!- Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-44-124.iburst.co.za] has quit [Quit: Eish] 08:39:23 Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-44-124.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:43:13 -!- EyesIsServer [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:43:52 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM49-252-106-98.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:44:22 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM49-252-106-98.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:46:29 add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-7-233.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 08:49:03 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM49-252-106-98.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:50:30 Inode [~inode@time.uk.chromedpork.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:28 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-152-17.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:54:48 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-152-17.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:57:13 -!- alvis [~alvis@tx-184-5-64-249.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:59:51 EyesIsServer [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 09:03:09 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:06:51 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@69.212.127.115] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 09:07:10 why is the 'push then nreverse' idiom preferred over just 'nconc'? 09:07:44 robot-beethoven: because with push you don't need to track both head and tail 09:08:30 p_l: ah, that makes sense 09:08:37 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 09:09:01 ngz [~user@69.205.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 09:09:28 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-69-212-127-115.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:10:09 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 09:10:21 kilon_alios [~kilon@athedsl-395995.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 09:10:49 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-396088.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:12:04 But if you need a queue datatype with push to the end and pop from the beginning semantincs then it's useful to maintain pointer to the last cons. 09:12:49 rwiker [~rwiker@233.80-202-200.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:12:54 alvis [~alvis@tx-184-5-64-249.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 09:13:35 -!- KingThomasIV [~KingThoma@c-66-177-178-27.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: I'm off!] 09:26:19 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:28:46 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:31:02 -!- kilon_alios is now known as kilon 09:32:36 Patzy [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:36:31 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:37:09 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 09:42:32 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-69-212-127-115.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 09:46:47 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@87.247.50.19] has joined #lisp 09:46:47 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 09:46:50 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 09:46:51 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.50.19] has quit [Changing host] 09:46:51 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:46:54 -!- hefner [~hefner@c-69-255-57-56.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:47:08 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5081D3A1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:50:03 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A8E7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:50:26 Why don't I see sb-walker in the SBCL manual? 09:50:47 there's a walker in cmucl 09:51:08 sb-walker is it's antecedent ? 09:51:24 Sgeo, maybe you're not supposed to use it.. try (documentation (find-package "SB-WALKER") t) 09:51:47 i think you could get the doc from cmucl too, and look up differences..... 09:52:00 in the source and naming .... 09:52:11 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@233.80-202-200.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:52:31 "internal: a code walker used by PCL" 09:52:51 What IS pcl? 09:52:58 Portable Common LOOPS 09:53:46 the origin of many an implementation's CLOS 09:54:35 What is the deal with asdf:oos 09:54:41 -!- nepnux [~wildnux@cpe-76-183-81-208.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:54:53 And a lot of documentation saying to use it in place of what looks like a more direct function call? 09:56:04 Sgeo: historical artefacts 09:56:29 -!- Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:56:30 *Sgeo* finally learns the correct way to use documentation on functions 09:57:27 Actually, hmm, that's confusing 09:57:43 Each function symbol has separate documentation from the function object itself 09:57:51 So far, all the functions I tried have their documentation on the symbol 10:00:02 momo-reina [~user@aa20111001946f573a1a.userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:08:21 Sgeo: see CDR#8 http://cdr.eurolisp.org/document/8/index.html 10:09:17 m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.123] has joined #lisp 10:09:28 Sgeo: You can use a symbol macro: (define-symbol-macro a (error "You shouldn't use the variable A")) (setf a 42) --> error ; (let ((a 42)) a) --> 42 ; you may also define a local symbol macro with symbol-macrolet. In short: learn the language! 10:10:33 pjb, uh, what is that in response to? 10:10:39 -!- Phoodus [~foo@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:10:50 Your questions at 3 and 4 in the morning. 10:10:53 Phoodus [~foo@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:11:43 agumonkey [agumonkey@143.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 10:11:49 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-395995.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:12:14 pjb, note the existence of time zones 10:12:28 6 and 5 hours ago. 10:12:57 Although I did find it 10:13:03 GOod. 10:13:05 Right, thanks 10:13:37 I should really slepe 10:13:39 sleep 10:14:07 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:16:48 -!- Enoria [~Enoria@jte.kidradd.org] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:17:01 m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.123] has joined #lisp 10:19:11 c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 10:20:16 they see me evaling, they hating 10:22:54 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:23:47 So, if I define a safe-read 10:24:25 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:24:39 Sgeo: you probably still don't want eval ;) 10:24:40 http://paste.lisp.org/display/128260 10:24:59 Something like that, then I note that SLIME doesn't help me out with the arguments 10:25:19 If I wanted SLIME to note the arguments, would I have to repeat the argument list in my safe-read? 10:25:46 My question has nothing to do with evaling 10:26:51 ah, right 10:26:57 my lack of sleep kicks in 10:27:02 hmm, slime shows args fine when I type (apply #'read blah, as soon as I type space after #'read, arglist highlighter switches to READ arglist 10:27:14 are you on sbcl and have slime-fancy loaded? 10:28:21 maxm-, typing (apply #'read blah) works fine 10:28:47 What doesn't work fine is the fact that when I type in (safe-read all that shows up is &rest args 10:28:56 And I want to know how to easily avoid having that happen. 10:29:08 Show read's arglist instead. 10:29:25 I guess I could make a macro that makes the defun 10:29:29 ah, no it would not be smart enough to parse and understand your function actual body, so it will only use arglist you specified 10:30:19 -!- Vicfred [~Futaba@189.228.22.127] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:30:21 in my opinion you concentrating on small details, like a guy learning C trying out esoteric flags to sccanf() 10:30:47 write some code, don't worry about read and continuations and all that stuff 10:31:21 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:31:36 Hmm 10:31:46 Maybe I should try to port a Haskell program I wrote a while ago? 10:32:00 if you out of ideas on code to write, try 99 lisp problems, or project euler or 8-queens, or tons of other online programming puzzle collections 10:33:02 Ok, that program looks a bit bigger than I remember 10:34:29 Sgeo: please no. spare us from your questions like "in haskell i have done X, how do i do that in lisp?" 10:34:45 Sgeo: just choose a problem and implement a solution 10:43:55 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 10:48:53 hagish [~hagish@p5DCBEF31.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:49:24 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:57:51 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-149-76.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 11:01:09 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-149-76.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:01:27 prip [~foo@host40-126-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:05:43 -!- EyesIsServer [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:05:54 -!- snowbeard [~user@c-71-198-213-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:06:44 Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 11:08:06 -!- prip [~foo@host40-126-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:13:05 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-149-76.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 11:13:21 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-149-76.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 11:14:14 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:22:33 rvrebane [~rvrebane@77-233-75-223.cdma.dyn.kou.ee] has joined #lisp 11:22:54 kurtb82 [~kurtb82@gateway/tor-sasl/kurtb82] has joined #lisp 11:23:19 prip [~foo@host40-126-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:23:27 EyesIsServer [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 11:26:53 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5081D3A1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:32:47 -!- kurtb82 [~kurtb82@gateway/tor-sasl/kurtb82] has quit [] 11:32:52 HG` [~HG@dsbg-5d82a9e3.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:48:06 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:52:50 -!- antifuchs [foobar@care.boinkor.net] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 11:57:24 -!- Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-44-124.iburst.co.za] has quit [Quit: Eish] 11:57:32 Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-44-124.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:59:49 -!- Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-44-124.iburst.co.za] has quit [Client Quit] 11:59:55 Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-44-124.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:02:26 -!- Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-44-124.iburst.co.za] has quit [Client Quit] 12:04:28 Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-44-124.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:07:19 -!- Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-44-124.iburst.co.za] has quit [Client Quit] 12:08:11 Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-44-124.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:09:38 -!- Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-44-124.iburst.co.za] has quit [Client Quit] 12:09:48 Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-44-124.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:09:52 osa1 [~sinan@78.173.124.175] has joined #lisp 12:11:50 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 12:15:42 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:17:54 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-121-162.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:28 -!- Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-44-124.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:19:07 -!- momo-reina [~user@aa20111001946f573a1a.userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:19:26 Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-44-124.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:20:11 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 12:20:38 MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-236-182.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 12:21:09 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-149-76.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:22:28 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-384968.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 12:23:17 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-121-162.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:25:14 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.173.124.175] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 12:26:02 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129207010.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 12:27:01 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-236-182.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:29:18 -!- leo2007 [~leo@114.249.196.165] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.94.1] 12:34:16 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 12:34:42 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:36:32 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-126-250.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 12:37:24 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-126-250.as43234.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:38:10 ckairaba [~ckairaba@39.104.100.84.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 12:39:16 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 12:40:27 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-126-250.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 12:42:27 -!- ckairaba [~ckairaba@39.104.100.84.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 12:43:54 ckairaba [~ckairaba@39.104.100.84.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 12:43:58 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:44:27 ikki [~ikki@62-r9-r1m.bb.itelcel.com] has joined #lisp 12:44:56 ckairaba_ [~ckairaba@39.104.100.84.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:38 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:46:36 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:48:19 kai__ [~kai@e179014118.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:48:48 -!- ckairaba [~ckairaba@39.104.100.84.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:50:11 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:50:17 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-126-250.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:51:06 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl6-228-38.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 12:57:59 -!- ckairaba_ [~ckairaba@39.104.100.84.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 13:11:25 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-147-162.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:08 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-50-126.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:13:40 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-44-180.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:13:48 Phooodus [~foo@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:15:08 -!- Phoodus [~foo@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:16:23 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.40.170] has joined #lisp 13:17:09 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-8-124.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:24:51 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 13:33:28 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:34:42 -!- nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 13:34:42 nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:14 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 13:36:29 moderately dumb question: how do I get rid of the silly (+ n 0) trick to return something in this: http://pastebin.com/sCgk78jt 13:37:38 why do use use (+ n 0) instead of just n ? 13:38:12 And why use (- n 1) when you can use (1- n). 13:38:39 And why use (floor (/ n x)) when you can use (floor n x) ? 13:38:44 <|3b|> is that condition the same thing as (zerop (mod n x))? 13:38:49 cause when I used just n I got this: http://pastebin.com/p48JFBsQ 13:39:10 <|3b|> did you use (n) instead of n? 13:39:12 and those others cause I didn't know those were real things, shrug 13:39:16 oh :( 13:39:18 And why use (= (/ n x) (floor (/ n x))) when you could use (zerop (nth-value 1 (floop n x))) ? 13:39:19 yes 13:39:24 bah. 13:39:38 And why use pastebin when you could use lisppaste and make annotations!??!?!?! 13:39:53 http://paste.lisp.org/new 13:39:58 ah 13:40:08 the one in the topic should probably be changed to that or something :( 13:40:09 And why program by trial and error when you can RTFM? :) 13:40:12 You seem to like useless parentheses 13:40:14 hey now 13:40:21 trial and error is the best! 13:40:34 *|3b|* wonders how hard it would be to fix lisppaste and the bots 13:40:37 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 13:40:46 Well, we're optimist, somedays lisppaste will come back to #lisp :-) 13:40:48 kilon_alios [~kilon@athedsl-188308.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 13:40:52 -!- surrounder [~surrounde@d130031.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:40:52 -!- timb [~tim@bacon2.burri.to] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:40:52 -!- vhost- [~vhost@unaffiliated/vhost-] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:40:52 -!- redline6561 [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:40:52 -!- daedric_ [~daedric@2a01:e0b:1000:21:baac:6fff:fe99:7ada] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:40:52 -!- anthraci- [anthracite@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:eaaa] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:40:52 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:40:52 -!- _root_ [~Scalable@li252-14.members.linode.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:40:52 -!- Utkarsh [~quassel@li118-209.members.linode.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:40:53 -!- jrockway [jrockway@itchy.jrock.us] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:40:57 timb [~tim@bacon2.burri.to] has joined #lisp 13:41:00 jrockway [jrockway@itchy.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 13:41:02 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl6-228-38.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 13:41:11 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 13:41:23 redline6561 [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 13:41:24 ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 13:41:36 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.190.39.231] has joined #lisp 13:41:39 oh hey there's a mod function, I should use that instead 13:41:43 vhost- [~vhost@unaffiliated/vhost-] has joined #lisp 13:41:48 anthracite [anthracite@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:eaaa] has joined #lisp 13:41:57 Utkarsh [~quassel@li118-209.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 13:42:23 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.190.39.231] has quit [Client Quit] 13:42:38 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-384968.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:42:44 _root_ [~Scalable@li252-14.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 13:44:39 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:45:19 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:45:27 daedric [~daedric@2a01:e0b:1000:21:baac:6fff:fe99:7ada] has joined #lisp 13:45:44 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:47:53 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.40.170] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.94.1] 13:48:02 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:58:03 and REM 14:04:34 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.65.212.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:04:45 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:05:13 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 14:05:24 surrounder [~surrounde@d130031.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 14:05:57 cmm [~cmm@109.64.193.22] has joined #lisp 14:06:12 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 14:08:25 good morning 14:11:29 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 14:13:05 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:13:05 nialo-: of course, if your numbers are integers. Check also REM. 14:13:21 Since you used floor, we assumed you had floating point numbers. 14:13:38 why would you assume that? 14:13:51 Because he used floor instead of mod. 14:13:58 I just explained. 14:14:12 i don't follow your explanation 14:15:26 MOD is exactly the second value of FLOOR, how is that related to the choice of numbers? 14:15:36 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:15:42 See above. 14:15:55 see what? you not making sense? 14:16:07 So there, my usual me. 14:16:35 (MOD X Y) is exactly == (nth-value 1 (FLOOR X Y)) 14:17:06 hey, what exactly issue is the issue with using the gpl with lisp? could someone link me to an article/mention some terminology? I tried lisp gpl linking (I think that's the problem I remember...) but I didn't find anything 14:17:33 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-58-165-252-158.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:18:09 and MOD works on REALs as well as FLOOR, so your "if your numbers are integers" doesn't make sense 14:18:27 dekuked: no issue with gpl 14:18:34 dekuked: there's no issue. GPL GPLifies everything it touches, as usual. 14:18:34 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:18:49 dekuked: some are concerned about lgpl's wording as it applies to lisp's model 14:19:18 Not everything it touches, but what you distribute. 14:19:42 okay, I just wanted to double check. thanks! 14:20:12 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 14:21:17 -!- kilon_alios is now known as kilon 14:21:30 dekuked: so for a user, AGPL3 is the best. For a programmer who want to grab code on the internet and make a proprietary application, MIT or BSD is the best. 14:22:06 But for a programmer who's a little naïve and want to force upon his users the same freedoms he likes to benefit from, AGPL3 is good. 14:22:44 what's naive about it? 14:22:45 "freedoms" 14:22:55 Notice that GPL2 (without the "or later version" clause) is incompatible with GPL3 or AGPL3. 14:23:03 stassats: yes. Go read the fsf.org site. 14:23:13 tomodo: users don't want freedoms. 14:23:19 oh yeah 14:23:26 tomodo: users are happy to be enslaved to facebook or google etc. 14:23:51 alunihil [~chatzilla@111-252-225-185.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:25:40 momo-reina [~user@aa20111001946f573a2a.userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:26:24 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has joined #lisp 14:26:58 wow, an actually useful post in c.l.l (subj Again. PCL trash) 14:27:50 not that it can't be accomplished with ones own macros, but newlisp examples indeed are "at the glance" not only shorter, but clearer in what they do too 14:28:19 you can stop reading c.l.l. for this year, then 14:28:26 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 14:28:26 maxm-: which may be telling more about the other snippets than the language. 14:28:43 Well, last year started very badly for cll too. I had the highest increase of my kill file then. 14:29:06 This year is not too good, but it would be nothing if people had full kill files too. 14:29:23 Perhaps I should see how to configure gnu to kill the answers to killed messages 14:29:32 hi 14:29:52 how can I get the quicklisp packages list? tx 14:30:11 didn't you already ask that question? 14:30:22 I do (QUICK-LIST-SYSTEMS). 14:30:31 I don't have the list of already-asked-stuff 14:30:36 (actualy, I do (apropos "QUICK-") find it, and then (QUICK-LIST-SYSTEMS). 14:30:47 But of course, those functions are defined in my ~/rc/common.lisp file. 14:31:01 pkhuong: well in reality yea, he makes the cobol lisp examples look uglier then they should with #'lambda 14:31:10 why would we answer if you're just going to ask again next week? Find it yourself, maybe it'll stick this time. 14:31:17 Posterdati: (ql:system-list) 14:31:22 See there: http://git.informatimago.com/viewgit/index.php?a=viewblob&p=public/rc&h=6015d6a313dad9b537074da84d56c08b68760344&hb=2a5617e26d48ac2eb62c09c9aff64dc81a928d31&f=common.lisp 14:31:26 thanks 14:31:52 I'm looking for opencv on common lisp 14:31:55 don't look, it's probably GPL! 14:32:16 but I personally always wished remove-if-not was named (filter) or (grep).. Its just so much more natural, at least to this non-native english speaker.. Always have to contort my mind with double-negation when looking at remove-if-not code 14:32:29 maxm-: why don't you then? 14:32:42 (defun filter (&rest args) (apply 'remove-if-not args)) 14:32:56 and don't bother us with those stupid wishes. 14:32:59 pjb: does not help with reading other's code 14:33:07 what does filter mean? leave matched things or remove them? 14:33:09 maxm-: I always have to check if filter is remove-if-not or remove-if. 14:33:14 Because other's code doesn't define functions? 14:33:22 remove-if-not is unambiguous 14:33:59 rwiker_ [~rwiker@233.80-202-200.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 14:34:04 bas_ [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 14:34:07 if I wanted to implement this algorithm: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_Euclidean_algorithm 14:34:09 stassats: it's a band-pass filter. 14:34:30 which way would people recommend? I guess iterative because tco isn't that great in lisp (or I think I read something like that on this channel) 14:34:32 -!- bas_ is now known as Skolaptop 14:35:32 pjb: if you don't wish to read my "stupid" messages, there is always /ignore btw 14:35:38 read up on it 14:35:56 TCO works fine in most implementations. The issue is that it's not guaranteed, so the conditions under which you'll get the optimisation are implementation dependent, and sometimes surprising. 14:36:08 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:36:12 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:36:52 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:37:06 mmmh there's no opencv for Common Lisp :( 14:37:43 dekuked: of course, to get TCO, the recursive call must be in tail position... 14:38:17 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 14:38:54 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.159.184] has joined #lisp 14:39:03 why is it implementation dependent? I mean I think of recursion as being an important way of breaking down problems. Is recursion generally not used in lisp code? 14:39:21 tail recursion is rarely a good way 14:39:32 recursion does not necessarily imply tco 14:39:34 pnq [~nick@ACA21A78.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 14:39:36 dekuked: it is not without costs 14:40:37 Posterdati: how can you tell? 14:41:05 Posterdati: is https://github.com/ryepup/cl-opencv not good enough ? 14:41:29 *Xach* adds it to quicklisp 14:41:45 CL-USER> (ql-dist:system-apropos "opencv") 14:41:45 NIL 14:42:23 Posterdati: quicklisp does not have every common lisp project in it (yet) 14:42:29 Posterdati: use google as a next resort 14:42:40 well, going by what I know, recursion is dangerous to use if there isn't tco, because then you can't depend on the stack not growing. or am I wrong? 14:42:43 Xach: but it was in quicklisp 14:42:54 dekuked: you are 14:42:56 Posterdati: What was in quicklisp? 14:43:03 Xach: cl-opencv 14:43:17 Posterdati: no it wasn't. 14:43:34 maxm-: I didn't say your messages were stupid, but your trivial wishes were. 14:44:08 dekuked: if you've read something about TCO here, what did you learn? 14:44:29 dekuked: dynamic binding and unwind-protect means that a lot of final calls are just NOT tail calls. 14:44:45 dekuked: there are so few tail calls in lisp programs that it's not worth it to mandate TCO. 14:45:05 Xach: ok, would you include it in quicklisp repository? 14:45:57 *maxm-* adds pjb's name to the list 14:46:15 pjb: I guess I'm not sure what I read. So I can feel safe writing recursive code for handling a massive number of function calls without my ram filling up? 14:46:15 kilon_alios [~kilon@ppp-94-64-189-234.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 14:46:32 its a joke btw for humour impaired 14:46:39 dekuked: no, you cannot. 14:46:41 depends on the depth that you expect your recursion to reach 14:46:41 Use loop. 14:47:01 dekuked: tail recursion represents only a small percentage of useful recursive problems 14:47:17 Indeed, you cannot even use it on trees. 14:47:21 Posterdati: it will be in april's release 14:47:31 Xach: ah good 14:47:50 Xach: I used it a bit for camera capture videos 14:47:51 Posterdati: you can get it earlier by checking it out into ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ 14:48:00 dekuked: you worry about the wrong thing. Just implement the damn algorithm. Recursively if its the most clear way to do it, or iteratively, or half-assedly 14:48:00 and in places where you could use tail recursion, most probably it would be more clear and shorter using LOOP instead 14:48:42 clarity, quickness of hacking staff together, the ability to try and throw away ideas quickly, that is the advantage of lisp 14:48:53 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-188308.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:49:07 there is time for optimization when you actually have a project worth optimizing 14:49:39 dto [~user@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:56 maxm: it's not really optimiation. I mean, I'm just used to being fearful of recursion when using Java. I just want to make sure that I don't have to worry in lisp. 14:50:01 dekuked: you'll be handling pretty large numbers if it matters. Plus, you'll usually get a stack overflow rather than just filling all your ram. 14:50:52 its very unlikely one' gets stack overflow on log'n algorithm.. Yes if you do (defun length ) recursively, but thats how you learn 14:51:51 Xach: read your interview, very cool :) 14:53:06 maxm-: IIRC, these algorithms can perform O(n) steps in the worst case. 14:53:11 Xach: I placed the opencv directory in ~/quicklisp/local-projects and (ql:quickload "cl-opencv") worked! Good :) Thanks 14:53:39 zulu_inuoe_ [~zulu_inuo@c-174-58-204-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:39 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.123] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:54:01 -!- kilon_alios is now known as kilon 14:54:44 pkhuong: me not being formally educated rears its ugly head, somehow division "felt" as typical divide and conquer type problem 14:57:07 maxm-: division only subtracts a small number of *bits* from the input. A (log n)-time algorithm would take almost the same time to process a 1MB or a 2MB bignum. 14:57:33 francogrex [~user@109.130.139.138] has joined #lisp 14:57:57 won another 100,000,000 GBP, now I can retire and hack Lisp for fun! 14:58:46 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:00:06 yea should have let the fact that div takes so much more time then mul clue me in, but neurons did not connected the two facts 15:01:14 division and multiplication have the same complexity. 15:01:32 And it's irrelevant. 15:01:35 but anyway my point kind of stands. It takes shorted time to actually type the algorithm from REPL and try it, discover it runs out of stack, and rewrite it, then research which lisp compilers do TCO under what conditions 15:02:17 *maxm-* had been humbled and defeated on all fronts, goes back to coding useful (well to him) things queitly 15:02:30 particularly given that the usual way to express the egcd recursively isn't tail-recursive. 15:02:52 Xach: i wasn't aware that you wrote quicklisp... i just read your interview on http://lisp-univ-etc.blogspot.com/2012/03/lisp-hackers-zach-beane.html. anyway just wanted to tell you it's been a joy using it! 15:03:15 should have named it Xachlisp 15:05:08 tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #lisp 15:06:21 tkellen [~tkellen@68.169.219.4] has joined #lisp 15:07:37 -!- EarlGray^ is now known as EarlGray 15:07:39 osa1 [~sinan@78.173.124.175] has joined #lisp 15:09:29 Enterprise Lisp Beanes 15:09:32 arborist [~arborist@e182028114.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:09:53 Zachary P. Beanelisp 15:10:04 Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:09 There is another Zachary Beane in my city and he is a miscreant :( 15:10:13 Fortunately he is Zachary D. Beane 15:11:01 "Hello? What? No, this is the *lisp hacking* Zachary Beane. You want the other guy." 15:11:51 hacking? that sounds like criminal activity, might as well arrest you as well 15:12:19 "lisp hacking" sounds like experimental surgery 15:12:52 -!- HG` [~HG@dsbg-5d82a9e3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: HG`] 15:13:23 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.173.124.175] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:13:40 "thpeak up thsonny, i can hear your lithp" 15:14:27 wuj [~wuj@207-237-2-224.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:14:34 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:15:56 *Xach* notes http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3687827 15:16:05 -!- tkellen [~tkellen@68.169.219.4] has quit [Quit: tkellen] 15:16:15 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.226.44] has joined #lisp 15:16:45 Xach: thats how i found it 15:16:51 congrats :) 15:16:56 Xach: me too 15:17:13 twitless I see 15:17:19 yep 15:19:01 m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.123] has joined #lisp 15:19:33 -!- momo-reina [~user@aa20111001946f573a2a.userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:21:10 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:22:48 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 15:23:09 I hope you voted for it, too 15:24:17 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:24:47 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:26:18 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:27:32 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 15:27:39 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:28:09 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:28:55 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:30:05 *Xach* needs more votes than this paul graham scrub 15:30:43 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 15:31:11 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA21A78.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:31:30 rme [~rme@50.43.184.114] has joined #lisp 15:32:31 cbp` [~user@187.208.0.7] has joined #lisp 15:32:37 m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.123] has joined #lisp 15:34:27 -!- dto [~user@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:34:49 LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-8-26.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:19 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-108-80-229-148.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:24 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 15:40:26 hi 15:40:50 can CL be used for embedded systems? 15:40:51 what is (ma:call-in-main-thread (:waitp nil) ... ) ? 15:41:06 theos: :) not yet 15:41:09 theos: depends on the embedded system. 15:41:10 an s-expression 15:41:13 :/ 15:41:29 theos: there's something for arduino 15:41:53 theos: it won't run on PICs, but if it runs a full-blown linux (i.e. with MMU), it's probably doable. 15:41:56 pkhuong is their a CL compiler available? from CL to hex/asm 15:42:06 hmm 15:42:17 thanks 15:42:52 Posterdati i am not an arduino guy :D 15:43:37 theos: most CL implementations (may) compile to native code. ECL does it via C, but other implementations (CCL, SBCL, CMUCL, ACL, LW) tend to emit machine code directly. 15:43:59 thats great 15:44:04 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM49-252-34-4.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:45:22 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 15:45:23 theos: emitting machine code directly also means that the workflow is different from what you may be used to, working with other languages. CL applications are built by loading code and data into the current environment, and then, if necessary, saving a copy of the heap to disk. 15:45:27 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:45:42 -!- alunihil [~chatzilla@111-252-225-185.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]] 15:46:19 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:46:21 -!- KDr2 [~kdr2@114.243.228.182] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:50:27 theos: if you have an ARMv7-a board running Linux, CCL should work, as it has armv7a code generation 15:50:36 -!- dekuked [~user@pool-108-7-203-109.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:52:40 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:52:40 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:53:19 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 15:55:00 oh nice p_l :) 15:55:43 *p_l* is out of luck with v6zk, though 15:55:45 also, does CL communicate well with devices on parallel port? 15:56:19 theos: just like any other language 15:56:29 not better? :D 15:56:41 theos: well, it got awesome bit-fiddling functions ;) 15:56:51 awesome 15:57:20 maybe not Erlang's, but compared to all that masking/anding/etc. in C to change few chosen bits... 15:58:44 just wondering, does anyone happen to still have a lisp machine? :) 15:59:03 yes, it's called core i5 15:59:14 I have a TI MicroExplorer 15:59:29 :o 15:59:55 ? bought for the princely sum of $3 at Weird Stuff Warehouse, Sunnyvale, in 2001 16:00:08 someone had MacIvory 16:00:24 actually, $3.24, as I had to pay sales tax, too :-) 16:00:35 *p_l* only ran weirdly-ported OpenGenera 2 16:02:39 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.139.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:03:03 thats cool 16:03:51 tkellen [~tkellen@68.169.219.4] has joined #lisp 16:05:50 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:07:06 emacsuser [~user@89-212-118-232.static.t-2.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:08 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:08:48 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:10:13 chr_ [~user@ti0061a380-dhcp0736.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 16:11:28 Heh, Xach is #3 on Hacker News. 16:12:02 who are #1 and 2? 16:12:41 #1 Successful people (can't beat those) 16:13:01 :/ 16:13:21 link? 16:13:21 #2 Frighteningly startup ideas, whereas whigflip works in the present. 16:14:07 theos: #3 as in the third ranked post at the moment. http://news.ycombinator.com 16:14:26 oh 16:15:07 Xach_ is a cool dude :) 16:15:30 Sorry if I misled you to believe I talked about a ranking of posters/commenters whatever. 16:15:48 *maxm-* learned his not fit to judge startup ideas, after watching with disbeleif as "make an internet forum" or "a portal, with stuff of 10 outsourced bloggers who cut-n-paste stuff" business models take off and make billions 16:16:51 chr_ no problemo :) 16:18:08 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.159.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:18:58 maxm-: Do you think you have some recurring errors in judgment with regards to startup ideas? 16:20:26 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM49-252-34-4.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:21:03 chr_: yup. IMHO IT/engeening folks are bad at it in general, its as if too much knowledge about computers/IT/web, prevents the rational evaluation of how some new trend would do among normal population 16:22:17 nepnux [~wildnux@69.199.88.19] has joined #lisp 16:22:29 that sounds about right. I'm still amaed that somebody has been able to make money from an app that turns an iPhone into a flashlight 16:23:12 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:23:16 citizeno [~user@c-68-39-37-222.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:38 m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.123] has joined #lisp 16:23:49 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 16:24:11 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:25:36 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Client Quit] 16:26:06 jwz said it best. 16:26:22 apwalk [~apwalk@ip67-152-149-110.z149-152-67.customer.algx.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:37 "How will this software get my users laid?" 16:27:26 16:27:26 that would be why facebook is so successful 16:27:32 they answered that question from the start 16:28:20 The answer being: "I'm a Harvard student?" 16:28:37 -!- kilon [~kilon@ppp-94-64-189-234.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:28:58 making a site that gets any student laid is going to be popular 16:30:29 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:30:30 Even one that gets you laid without being a student. 16:31:04 well, technically, that's easy and is even monetized, but has icky law issues in some places 16:32:08 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:32:15 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.40.170] has joined #lisp 16:32:16 so, i have this idea of putting source packages into my sbcl contrib build directory so that they are included in my default install when i build it 16:32:41 doesn't sound like a good idea 16:32:50 do i have to add the directories anywhere into the build process to have them build when i call make.sh or does it just iterate through the directories of contrib 16:32:58 i'm not concerned if you think that's a good idea 16:33:08 i'm just curious on how to do it 16:33:33 kruhft: why not use ASDF2's OS-wide config? 16:33:52 why not just use quicklisp? 16:34:06 because i had an idea and i'm wondering if it would work 16:34:10 *maxm-* likes kruhft style. I would have engaged in 2 page arguing with stassats trying to prove why its a good idea 16:34:18 Unhandled memory fault at #x1E000000000. 16:34:18 [Condition of type SB-SYS:MEMORY-FAULT-ERROR] 16:34:20 and because i just tried using quicklisp and it didn't work for ncurses on my system 16:34:27 good cl-opencv didn't work! 16:34:32 dnolen [~user@p72-0-226-118-static.acedsl.com] has joined #lisp 16:35:19 kruhft: do you expect ncurses to work differently with your idea? 16:35:44 well i expect to know exactly to how modify the source so that it rebuilds when i have it in a place where i know where it is 16:36:11 without some framework around the whole system that complicates just simply building and modifying a small section of code that i need to get it to work 16:36:24 you known about the "local-projects" mechanism in quicklisp? 16:36:47 quicklisp doesn't prevent you from doing any modifications 16:36:50 yes, and i also know about using a ~/.asdf directory as well 16:36:50 -!- rvrebane [~rvrebane@77-233-75-223.cdma.dyn.kou.ee] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:37:36 which is normally what I use, i just had an idea and i was asking whether it would work, not ask to be convinced there are other ways to do it 16:37:50 lispm [~lispm@g224120079.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:37:55 kruhft: you'd need to write makefile and all. Not sure it's a win. 16:38:25 does the sbcl build process iterate through the contrib directories and call make for each sub-project? 16:38:56 kruhft: pretty much. You can read the shell script. 16:39:01 that's how it looks, from a casual glance at make-target-contrib.sh 16:39:11 ok, thanks 16:39:40 your idea of working around a complicated framework is asking others how to do it? 16:40:01 initially, yes 16:40:10 tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.58.205] has joined #lisp 16:40:39 then i go off and do it and understand the process and have all my libraries in my own build of sbcl 16:40:56 and i don't have to worry about version upgrades behind my back breaking my code 16:41:38 that doesn't make much sense 16:41:55 well, sometimes people do things that don't make sense at first 16:42:19 that's not a good excuse 16:42:20 and if it doesn't work then i don't do it 16:43:18 I expect the script will break due to non-ascii comments. 16:45:09 not upgrading quicklisp is an option, failing that, maintaining your own directory with projects is an option 16:45:37 I hate when you go on Stack Overflow or similar website, and ask "Say, might any of you know how to do X?" then of course most of the responses are "Why would you ever do X? You should never do X" 16:46:04 zulu_inuoe_: then don't ask 16:46:32 no one wants to help you do things backwards 16:46:32 basically, i have my own branch of sbcl on github and i would like to add the libraries i use, which so far are very few, to my contrib directory so i can push up the whole system and have a backup that i can easily pull down as i need it 16:46:48 is there another macro to concatenate two strings beside (concatenate 'string a b) = 16:46:49 sort of a self contained distribution 16:46:49 ? 16:47:04 Posterdati: concatenate is not a macro 16:47:14 rohityadav [~l33t@14.139.228.210] has joined #lisp 16:47:20 Posterdati: (format nil "~A~A" a b) 16:47:39 imo if somebody has a question and you know the answer, you should tell them. If they wanted you to give them advice on how to do things differently or the like they would ask. I understand you're trying to be a nice and proper person and genuinely want to help them, but sometimes the best way to help is just to give them enough so they can discover for themselves what to do 16:47:51 But that's my opinion 16:48:05 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 16:48:08 Posterdati: (format nil "~@{~A~}" a b c d e) 16:48:33 thanks 16:48:47 is it legal then to use concatenate only? 16:48:48 heh? I didn't know about the @ modifier for ~{?. thanks :-) 16:49:01 zulu_inuoe_: i don't see how giving bad advice helps to discover anything 16:49:22 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Client Quit] 16:49:24 Posterdati: yes, you won't be arrested 16:50:06 zulu_inuoe_: sometimes people just don't know enough to answer correct questions, so they need some help to make a correct question 16:50:50 kruhft: just make another project on github named "my-precious-libraries", and put stuff you want in there 16:51:33 ApeShot [~user@cpe-076-182-098-158.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:51:57 If i get a package qualified symbol, how do I get just the symbol part of it? 16:52:12 ApeShot: do you want to print it? 16:52:13 eg (?? package:x) -> x 16:52:19 This is for macro magic 16:52:23 Hi, I'm new to lisp... started reading the land of lisp, any advices for me? I want to make an online webapp to document recipes... is it do-able in CL? And how would you tackle database and html generation, I've access to heroku 16:52:32 thanks 16:52:33 ApeShot: what kind of magic is that? 16:52:35 stassats: I don't think it's bad advice. I think it's the answer to their question. If they receive that answer and then realize "Man, this was a stupd way of doing it" they'll understand -why- much better than if you just told them. And if they -were- the type of person that knew exactly what they wanted and thus the answer was -exactly what they wanted and needed- then it's all solved. I see no downsides in telling people how to 16:52:42 too complicated to talk about here 16:52:45 My bosses code 16:52:46 Can't change 16:52:55 I just need to get the unqualified symbol 16:53:01 boss' 16:53:09 (format nil "~a" symbol) 16:53:11 boss's 16:53:24 stassats: Though I do agree with wanting to know more about the question if they asked ambiguously. I have no problem with that 16:53:27 ApeShot: you need to understand packages to understand that your question doesn't make sense 16:54:23 The basic idea is that the macro expands to something that exports from the package where the macro expands 16:54:40 the symbols are getting qualified with the wrong package 16:54:44 stassats: Finally I want to apologize if that came out really confrontational or mean, it's just something that really bugs me. I shouldn't be taking it out on you or anyone here 16:55:00 in that case, you should be able to use #'symbol-name, or print 16:55:26 thatnks 16:55:44 if the symbols are getting qualified with the wrong package, you're actually using the wrong symbols 16:55:50 If I weren't working I'd be delighted to take a journey through the mysteries of the package system. 16:55:57 However, time is not abundant 16:55:57 ckairaba [~ckairaba@39.104.100.84.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:07 rwiker_: I agree 16:56:28 But it is one of those things - I didn't write the code and can't afford to spend time digging through the issue, perhaps 16:56:41 But since you've indicated it is code smell, I'll talk with him about it 16:57:07 you didn't describe the problem properly, so it's hard to say what's wrong and what to do 16:57:43 apwalk_ [~apwalk@71-14-74-142.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:00:11 -!- apwalk [~apwalk@ip67-152-149-110.z149-152-67.customer.algx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:00:11 -!- apwalk_ is now known as apwalk 17:00:58 and i'm sure it'd took a lot less time if you tried to properly understand it than trying different things randomly 17:02:21 stassats: I frankly don't fully understand the issue: my startup is in crunch time and we have tons of legacy code to deal with. 17:02:31 I'm sure you're familiar with this mode of development 17:02:43 Not ideal, but then neither are deadlines 17:02:58 In any case, you are obviously right 17:03:04 This fix won't work 17:03:10 I've got to get into the details 17:03:18 I may return 17:03:36 ApeShot: i suggest you to paste the macro, describe what it does and what you want 17:03:50 -!- emacsuser [~user@89-212-118-232.static.t-2.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:04:09 The code is not open source and extremely complicated, and depends on a significant portion of things which only work on Franz Lisp 17:04:21 apwalk_ [~apwalk@71-14-74-142.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:04:24 invent an example 17:04:35 It is tightly coupled with the namespace system of allegrograph 17:05:46 -!- lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:06:02 -!- apwalk [~apwalk@71-14-74-142.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:06:02 -!- apwalk_ is now known as apwalk 17:07:01 -!- lispm [~lispm@g224120079.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 17:07:20 i can only say that symbols get their package when they're read, if you want them to be in the right package make sure they're read in the right one 17:07:34 failing that, you can INTERN them into the right package 17:07:51 Make sure to use uppercase 17:08:06 ApeShot: (intern (symbol-name 'some-other-symbol)) 17:08:20 it will intern it into the current package 17:08:52 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 17:09:08 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #lisp 17:09:13 -!- citizeno [~user@c-68-39-37-222.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:10:38 -!- hagish [~hagish@p5DCBEF31.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:10:59 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:11:04 actually, this sounds like it might be similar to using gensym to generate temporary symbols for the expansion of a macro, but you'd use intern instead, to generate a permanent (interned) symbol, instead 17:12:45 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:51 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:16:23 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@87.247.50.19] has joined #lisp 17:16:23 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 17:16:23 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 17:16:24 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.50.19] has quit [Changing host] 17:16:24 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 17:19:07 zulu_inuoe_: your reaction is normal. If I come and announce new library "cl-sky-blue", stassats and other regulars will find a parenthesis in the wrong place, 2 other places where it can be made shorter by 1 character, and also the failure to use #:sky rather then :sky, and the failure to consider sky color on different planetary bodies 17:19:28 -!- Phooodus [~foo@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:19:39 i prefer to use :sky 17:19:43 Phoodus [~foo@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:47 BrianRice [~water@174-21-120-125.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:18 I prefer to use "SKY". modern mode schmodern mode. 17:24:00 i can't be bothered to type an extraneous " and hold shift all the time 17:24:12 although with slime, where it comes to exporting, i don't type at all 17:24:33 mhi^ [~mhi@mhi.sanctioned.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:26 Patterngazer_ [~Patternga@globulon.pck.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:51 clisp vs sbcl? which is better? 17:26:02 SBCL 17:26:45 why so? 17:26:58 define "better" 17:27:11 more efficient 17:27:20 efficient with what resources? 17:27:26 define "efficient" 17:27:37 erm i get the point :) thanks 17:27:43 it takes less typing to start sbcl than clisp 17:28:18 i dont know much to ask or answer yet :/ but one day! 17:28:49 depending on your platform, you may also want to take a look at clozure cl 17:29:19 just starting out with CL. lots of confusion :) 17:31:18 there used to be some sort of pre-packaged, free lisp environment available? I think it was called "lisp in a box"; not usre if it exists anymore, or of there is anything else that fills that particular niche 17:32:07 still exists 17:32:13 can just google that and find it 17:32:17 http://common-lisp.net/project/lispbox/ 17:32:54 for mac users, there is also http://mclide.in-progress.com/ 17:33:37 thanks 17:33:48 i have linux 17:35:15 -!- mhi^ [~mhi@mhi.sanctioned.net] has left #lisp 17:38:54 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:39:35 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:41:06 HG` [~HG@dsbg-5d82a9e3.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:05 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@124.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:45:56 Froward [~uh-oh@206.231.99.110] has joined #lisp 17:46:51 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 17:46:55 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.160.39] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:50:25 -!- ckairaba [~ckairaba@39.104.100.84.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 17:55:54 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-69-212-127-115.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:17 Kron [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has joined #lisp 17:56:46 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:57:39 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:57:52 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 17:59:22 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 18:02:35 -!- rwiker_ [~rwiker@233.80-202-200.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:04:36 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:08:30 Xach: Have you thought of doing a 'tag' system for quicklisp? To make it easier to search for libraries 18:10:16 -!- arborist [~arborist@e182028114.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:10:16 (ql:tag-search '(server xml graphics)) => list of libraries with any of those tags OR print out of libraries with those tags (ala apropos) 18:10:19 pelirrojito [~daniel@101.98.132.91] has joined #lisp 18:10:25 join #python 18:10:26 arborist [~arborist@e182028077.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:10:33 oops, sorry 18:10:39 snowbeard [~user@c-71-198-213-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:47 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.40.170] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.94.1] 18:11:39 -!- kai__ [~kai@e179014118.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:14:13 -!- Modius [~user@cpe-70-123-128-240.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:15:18 -!- naryl [~weechat@188.134.95.93] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 18:15:39 naryl [~weechat@188.134.95.93] has joined #lisp 18:17:12 kai_ [~kai@f052103094.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:18:26 -!- HG` [~HG@dsbg-5d82a9e3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:22:36 vantage|home [~vantage@109.131.120.228] has joined #lisp 18:24:20 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-8-26.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:25:08 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.235.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:25:38 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:25:57 zulu_inuoe_: quicklisp has each system's description in its metadata. You could SEARCH/cl-ppcre on that. 18:27:07 pnathan [~Adium@64.126.142.148] has joined #lisp 18:30:45 -!- zulu_inuoe_ [~zulu_inuo@c-174-58-204-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~] 18:39:23 -!- lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@124.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:43:53 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:46:50 nihita [~nihita@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 18:46:59 hello all..:) 18:50:20 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@124.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:53:21 Hi 18:53:33 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584440.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:54:04 asdfhjkl [~bob@i5E879AE1.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:56:42 la fem or khrushev? 18:57:01 m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.123] has joined #lisp 18:57:34 lol 18:58:34 pkhuong: not yet it doesn't 18:58:58 pandelume [~dac@ool-18bdf91d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:28 does anyone find sometimes when requiring a system in slime, that the output gets "selected". i'm not sure if a region is created but it looks that way. 18:59:35 the compilation output I mean. 19:00:13 ... damn, I knew I had some fix for that, but it has been so long ago I don't remember what it was 19:00:53 it's happened to me before, but is started happening again only yesterday. 19:01:12 s/is/it 19:01:38 zulu_inuoe [~zulu_inuo@c-174-58-204-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:04 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 19:03:42 Xach: you make us write useful description for nothing? scandalous. 19:04:12 -!- nepnux [~wildnux@69.199.88.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:04:31 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.11.254] has joined #lisp 19:06:11 pkhuong: part of my evil scheme to waste CL hacker time 19:06:39 Xach: I always knew you were a Scheme type of guy 19:07:29 Patterngazer [~Patternga@globulon.pck.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:43 -!- Patterngazer_ [~Patternga@globulon.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:09:13 limetree: i'm not sure i understand what you mean 19:11:41 zulu_inuoe: Who wouldn't be, with the promises it makes? 19:12:15 When you use scheme, elegance will ooze from your every orifice. 19:12:33 stassats: I have transient mark mode enabled. Sometimes, when compiling generates a lot of output, a region is highlighted in the REPL. 19:13:04 It seems to slow display down, but, more importantly, it's annoying on the eyes (flickering)? 19:13:06 Xach: That's true. And with hygenic macros you will never again ever have bugs! 19:13:07 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5081A77D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:04 stassats: and the region goes to the end of the REPL buffer, so it keeps moving as python spews notes and warnings. 19:15:02 got it, but i don't know how to reproduce it 19:15:06 -!- pnathan [~Adium@64.126.142.148] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:15:29 stassats: same here. It happens... sometimes. 19:16:55 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0659.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:17:06 I hope I don't get flamed for this, but I sometimes wish my symbol value and function slots were one in the same, I don't like having to call fun. Fun should know to come to me! 19:17:18 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:20:15 -!- snowbeard [~user@c-71-198-213-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:21:08 -!- nihita [~nihita@76.73.121.203] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:21:12 ApeShot: (symbol-name 'package:x) => "X" 19:21:27 looks like a string 19:21:55 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5081A77D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:22:19 the top of the conversation was clipped in my scrollback, but it looked like he was asking for the name. 19:22:36 he doesn't know what he's asking for, that's the problem 19:22:42 ahh 19:22:47 *Fade* shaddaps, then 19:24:54 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-44-180.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:28:08 -!- dnolen [~user@p72-0-226-118-static.acedsl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:28:34 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-44-180.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:32:31 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-237-2-224.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:34:37 -!- benny [~benny@i577A7125.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:35:28 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.106.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:39:13 -!- Phoodus [~foo@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:39:30 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:39:56 Phoodus [~foo@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:03 benny` [~benny@i577A7125.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:40:15 Hi! Can I do (format t "~{~A~^-~^>~A~}" '(a b)) in any simplier way? 19:40:49 (format t "~{~A~^->~}" '(a b)) 19:40:49 Sgeo: "18:54:10 I guess I can't make a variable that errors if something attempts to evaluate it, can it?" <-- (symbol-macrolet ((my-var (error "Attempted to evaluate ~S" 'my-var))) whatever body) would do, wouldn't it? 19:41:06 I wish I could read more russian because I like the last bullet on https://github.com/neverblued/cleepz 19:41:27 stassats: ah, ofc! 19:41:44 but without ~{ ~} it is impossible ? 19:42:04 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.11.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:42:36 pjb: "06:18:56 dekuked: there's no issue. GPL GPLifies everything it touches, as usual." "06:19:40 Not everything it touches, but what you distribute." <-- I distribute everything, so... ;P 19:43:05 "06:21:52 dekuked: so for a user, AGPL3 is the best. For a programmer who want to grab code on the internet and make a proprietary application, MIT or BSD is the best." <-- Isn't Public Domain even better? ;P 19:43:14 mrSpec: (format t "~?" "~a->~a" '(a b)) 19:43:34 Hexstream: MIT or WTFPL is essentially what public domain is in many countries 19:43:55 -!- benny` is now known as benny 19:43:58 And it's even more permissive in lots of others. 19:44:39 "06:32:38 but I personally always wished remove-if-not was named (filter) or (grep).. Its just so much more natural, at least to this non-native english speaker.. Always have to contort my mind with double-negation when looking at remove-if-not code" <-- My vote's on KEEP-IF. Nice, short, unambiguous. 19:44:56 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0659.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:46:28 -!- kruhft [~user@S0106002401f331bd.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:47:20 and destructous counterpart? 19:47:59 stassats: NKEEP-IF, obv. 19:48:17 I don't know, NKEEP-IF? I hadn't really thought about that... My platonic ideal would be (! 'keep-if). 19:48:22 stassats: thanks 19:49:30 (complement 'keep-if)? 19:50:03 remove-if would still be remove-if. 19:51:26 mrSpec: do you have a strong aversion to ~{? 19:51:37 It's also nice in that we could have KEEP as well as REMOVE, which is not so straightforward for other potential names like FILTER. 19:52:19 mrSpec: another one: (format t "~<~A->~A~:>" '(a b)) 19:52:19 stassats: no, I'll use it ;) 19:53:00 Xach: would you release the code you use to make releases ? 19:53:00 The nice thing about FORMAT is that we can compete with Perl. 19:53:12 even your version could be just written as (format t "~{~A->~A~}" '(a b)) 19:53:19 provided that you have just two elements 19:53:28 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 19:53:29 fe[nl]ix: Sometime. 19:53:45 yes, I've just found this out... 19:54:10 and yet another: (apply #'format t "~a->~a" '(a b)) 19:54:31 (apply (formatter "~a->~a") t '(a b)) 19:55:56 -!- Froward [~uh-oh@206.231.99.110] has quit [Quit: even in laughter, the heart of Snorlax is sorrowful. and the end of that mirth is heaviness.] 19:56:44 kruhft [~user@S0106002401f331bd.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:19 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 19:58:26 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 19:58:52 stassats: I was arrested 19:59:18 well, too bad, but you should've talked to your lawyer, not me 19:59:19 #ineedalawyer is over there ---> 20:00:08 i would've never imagined one can become arrested for using CONCATENATE 20:00:10 stassats: because you told me to use concatenate 20:00:26 Fade: are you on the slime mailing list ? 20:00:28 stassats: the Sheriff got me :( 20:00:41 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@109.131.120.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:00:43 fe[nl]ix: I'm subscribed, but I don't read it regularly. 20:01:52 i read it regularly, do i get a cookie? 20:02:00 no hancuffs 20:02:08 no handcuffs 20:03:35 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-147-162.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:04:35 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-132-100.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:06:42 thebope [~thebope@pdpc/supporter/student/thebope] has joined #lisp 20:07:24 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-152-17.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:09:13 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@xdsl-77-86-196-131.nebulazone.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:09:52 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-254-67.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:01 vantage|home [~vantage@160.216-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 20:10:55 redsky [~vigil@adsl-074-229-197-048.sip.mco.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:18 Does CL provide any built-in operators for inspecting or manipulating function objects? 20:13:56 redsky: Like disassemble? 20:15:15 I meant more of on a higher level, like say branching logic that depends on the number of arguments it takes 20:15:22 redsky: not bulit-in 20:16:01 ok, guess I can defer compilation then and mess around with lambdas 20:16:39 redsky: or keep track of the information you need. You could use an EQ hash table, or funcallable objects. 20:18:02 LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-8-26.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:18 you can funcall the object itself or one of its slots? 20:19:10 I seem to recall C++ had something similar with functors... 20:19:11 a funcallable object is a CLOS instance that is also a function. As you pointed out, you could also simply store eacj function in some object. 20:19:33 redsky: for source code rewriting, I personally used code walker (arnesi), it converts lisp form into kind of an AST tree of clos objects, which you can manipulate, and then unwalk it back into the source 20:19:52 redsky: or you can dive into SBCL internals 20:21:29 *maxm-* may have totally misunderstood what redsky meant by "higher level" info about function objects or "mess around with lambdas" 20:21:57 pkhuong: is it sad that I just spent 30 seconds checking indices and google for "eacj" before realizing it was a typo? 20:23:46 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:24:03 maxm: I'm ideally looking for a way to write functions that take functions, but choose their behavior based on more than simply invoking them with a static # of args. I mean if I wanted that behavior, even vanilla C does it via function pointers. But I can do it by passing quoted lambdas I suppose. 20:24:12 -!- Skolaptop [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:24:27 redsky: quoted lambdas is terrible 20:24:32 messes up your scope 20:24:40 redsky: hard to figure out without an example 20:24:46 Just make the _functions_ do different things based on different numbers of arguments 20:24:54 Use a good pattern matching library 20:24:56 redsky: I assume you already checked out CLOS dispatch methanism? 20:25:12 s 20:25:16 -!- ApeShot [~user@cpe-076-182-098-158.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:28:00 maxm: I skimmed over CLOS, not really needing OO stuff (but desiring first class functions) I didn't delve into details too much. Lisp generic functions sound great but they require a fixed number of args, yes? 20:28:24 redsky: there's function-lambda-expression and disassemble. 20:28:34 -!- zulu_inuoe [~zulu_inuo@c-174-58-204-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #lisp 20:29:31 But since most implementations return NIL for function-lambda-expression, better write your own book-keeping defun macro. See: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/ 20:30:10 redsky: what is your overall project? 20:31:09 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:31:16 and as maxm- said, an example would be pretty helpful 20:31:39 Xach: an AI thing that tests the performance of various indicator combinations. 20:31:57 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:32:01 redsky: yes, you can't dispatch on optional args, but you can do stuff like (defun foo (&rest args) (generic-function (length args) (first args) (rest args))) and then have several methods (defmethod generic-function ((n (eql 10) first-arg rest) (print "This will get called when foo is invoked with 10 arguments))) 20:32:57 but you'll have to design it yourself, obviously to do arbitrary kind of thing will require kind of a pattern matcher thing 20:34:00 redsky: ah 20:34:06 Xach: for example, I have a function get-flagged-times that I want to accept two functional arguments: an iterating function (since I have a wide variety of potential rulesets for iteration) and an indicator function. Assuming both functions only accept a timestamp as a input covers 99% of cases I care about, but there are corner cases I'd like to be flexible on, especially re: the indicator function. 20:34:20 redsky: you mean you want to extract n-arity of a function based on passed function object? 20:34:56 something like that, yes 20:36:21 daem0n [~yaargh@host-89-241-100-80.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:21 -!- daem0n [~yaargh@host-89-241-100-80.as13285.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:36:21 daem0n [~yaargh@unaffiliated/mryaargh] has joined #lisp 20:36:25 -!- asdfhjkl [~bob@i5E879AE1.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:36:26 -!- Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-44-124.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:36:36 Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-44-124.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:38:01 you'll have to associate metadata somehow, either via funcallable-standard-class thing, or by simply using CLOS 20:38:02 possibly I am expecting too much generality out of the box, I just wanted to know if there was a preexisting solution before building my own. Or trying libraries 20:38:26 usual methafors for this are having a macro that defines your function, which stores both the function, and its meta-data in global hashtable 20:39:04 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:39:08 ok. alrighty, thanks 20:39:58 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:40:01 rwiker [~rwiker@233.80-202-200.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:40:05 like (defmacro def-indicator (name (args) &body body) `(progn (setf (gethash ,name *indicators*) (make-indicator-record :n-arity ,(length args) :lambda (lambda (,@args) ,@body))))) 20:40:24 Woot! I finally found an actual use-case for the second return value of FIND-SYMBOL: Looking up if a certain symbol is exported from the CL package. :) (Just looking up the home package of the symbol wouldn't do...) 20:41:21 Hexstream: No? Why not? 20:41:45 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-212-35.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:41:52 Xach: Because the standard explicitly permits implementations to have external CL symbols have an home-package other than CL. 20:42:02 Xach: you need it to properly parse "blah:crap" string and give error if "crap" is not external in package blah 20:42:13 -!- Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:42:17 Hexstream: ah, i see. 20:43:39 Xach: "The COMMON-LISP package has as external symbols those symbols enumerated in the figures in Section 1.9 (Symbols in the COMMON-LISP Package), and no others. These external symbols are present in the COMMON-LISP package but their home package need not be the COMMON-LISP package.", from l1sp.org/cl/11.1.2.1, for reference. 20:43:59 I know all about find-symbol - I wrote a package system! I did not know that symbols exported from CL could have a different home package. 20:44:04 (That was surprising to me too when first coming across it.) 20:44:48 The second value is also the only way to determine success if CL:NIL might be the first value. 20:45:27 Ah, nice subtlety. 20:46:22 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.132.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:46:51 dabd [~dabd@a79-169-214-13.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 20:50:32 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 20:50:59 COMMON-LISP may not be the main lisp in an implementation. 20:55:45 nepnux [~wildnux@cpe-76-183-81-208.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:56:34 hefner [~hefner@c-69-255-57-56.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:04 -!- daem0n [~yaargh@unaffiliated/mryaargh] has quit [Quit: o/] 20:59:18 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.11.254] has joined #lisp 20:59:50 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:57 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 21:01:38 -!- dabd [~dabd@a79-169-214-13.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:06:06 zulu_inuoe [~zulu_inuo@c-174-58-204-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:31 *Xach* shivers 21:12:19 damn that frigid northern air. 21:12:20 is there a continue type statment that can be used in dotimes? 21:12:34 like in C 21:13:09 kruhft: dotimes is an implicit tagbody. You can add labels and GO to them. 21:13:31 but doing that won't increment the counter that dotimes is using will it? 21:13:53 kruhft: sure... if you GO to the end of the body. 21:14:10 ah, yes. i was thinking of going to the top for some reason. thanks. 21:16:08 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-108-80-229-148.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:16:49 got to go through the bottom to arrive at the top 21:17:48 I wasn't aware of implicit tagbodies. That's interesting. 21:18:13 outed as a non-lisptips reader! 21:18:22 -!- Kvaks [~kvaks@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: reboot] 21:18:35 http://lisptips.com/post/11431815670/fine-grained-control-flow 21:18:42 hahaha. I must've missed that one. 21:22:37 Wow, I need re-read all these lisptips. I forgot about (setf values), too. 21:24:07 it shouldn't take very long :( 21:24:22 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.11.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:25:50 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@233.80-202-200.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:26:09 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:29:27 vantage|2 [~vantage@109.131.2.203] has joined #lisp 21:31:30 -!- Patterngazer [~Patternga@globulon.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Quit: Take my advice. I don't use it anyway] 21:31:36 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@160.216-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:34:10 -!- dryman [~dryman@OpenISDM.iis.sinica.edu.tw] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:34:19 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:34:25 dryman [~dryman@OpenISDM.iis.sinica.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 21:34:30 astoon [~chatzilla@213.108.208.136] has joined #lisp 21:35:29 -!- astoon [~chatzilla@213.108.208.136] has quit [Client Quit] 21:35:29 -!- zulu_inuoe [~zulu_inuo@c-174-58-204-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:35:58 zulu_inuoe [~zulu_inuo@c-174-58-204-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:04 Froward [~uh-oh@64.134.68.241] has joined #lisp 21:36:30 -!- nepnux [~wildnux@cpe-76-183-81-208.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:36:31 -!- mensch [~mensch@c-24-128-27-99.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:36:35 daniel__1 [~daniel@p5082BC44.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:03 mensch [~mensch@c-24-128-27-99.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:08 -!- daniel__ [~daniel@p5B326302.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:38:24 y3di [~y3di@c-76-117-145-92.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:24 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:42:59 fudanchii [~adie@180.244.166.41] has joined #lisp 21:51:01 stassats: are you of the Body? 21:51:01 -!- kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@164-177-151-185.static.cloud-ips.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:51:30 kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@164-177-151-185.static.cloud-ips.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:54:37 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has joined #lisp 21:54:51 -!- Kron [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:54:51 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-234-161.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:13 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-254-67.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:59:59 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-234-161.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:01:26 -!- vantage|2 [~vantage@109.131.2.203] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:01:46 nuntius [~nuntius@pool-173-76-234-249.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:25 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:03:33 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-142-27.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:46 what would you call a generic function opposite to slot-names-for-copy. Use case: I do lots of copy-instance on models that contain qt objects, and 100% of cases of overriding slot-names-for-copy, I do (call-next-method) and filter that list to remove stuff 22:04:51 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:03 gonna add the opposite function (slot list not to copy) instead 22:05:36 Only think comes to mind is slot-names-not-for-copy, which sounds weird 22:06:27 slot-names-exclude? 22:08:33 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-401018.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 22:08:38 ah cool thanks for suggestion, "excluded" missed my brain somehow, calling it excluded-slot-names-for-copy 22:08:46 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 22:09:18 i would ditch "name" too 22:10:04 well usually CLOS related "slots" functions that don't contain "name" deal with slot-definition instances, not with slot names 22:10:30 that's MOP related 22:10:50 you make a convincing argument fry 22:11:54 heh first time I ever used (nintersection) 22:12:36 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-8-26.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:16:33 KognizantKog [~Kognizant@72.168.55.98] has joined #lisp 22:18:14 -!- hefner [~hefner@c-69-255-57-56.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:18:39 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-114-255.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 22:18:41 -!- zulu_inuoe [~zulu_inuo@c-174-58-204-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #lisp 22:21:26 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-142-27.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:23:01 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:26:53 -!- lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@124.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:27:19 that got to be some kind of a record, I managed to have 3 bugs in 3 lines of code http://paste.lisp.org/display/128266 22:28:45 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:32:02 Simul` [~user@97-93-224-156.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:33:57 -!- Simul` [~user@97-93-224-156.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:34:51 Simul` [~user@97-93-224-156.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:35:21 Phooodus [~foo@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:35:47 -!- pandelume [~dac@ool-18bdf91d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:36:43 -!- Phoodus [~foo@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:38:36 dabd [~dabd@a81-84-73-69.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 22:39:27 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-153-19.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:02 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:43:13 -!- RazWelles [~Raz@c-76-108-49-181.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #lisp 22:44:10 Frowardly [~uh-oh@64.134.68.241] has joined #lisp 22:45:26 Hmm. 22:45:54 How common is it for someone to write their own defun-like thing for making a lot of functions that have certain properties in common? 22:46:12 Sgeo: extremely 22:46:18 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:47:17 -!- Froward [~uh-oh@64.134.68.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:47:20 Hmm, makes me think of Python's decorators. I don't know what other languages do for that situation. But I think I like the Common Lisp way better 22:47:34 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:14 Sgeo: there are decorators for CL. 22:48:23 *Xach* cannot remember the name of the project at the moment 22:48:37 the clackfolk use it 22:49:07 Sgeo: I find it's more common to write a def to do something fairly different from defun rather than a thin layer on defun 22:49:34 -!- Phooodus [~foo@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:49:38 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-114-255.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:49:44 I've seen a fair amount of both define-something for functions with similar properties, and top level macrolets that expand into defuns for functions with simiilar logic 22:49:51 Phoodus [~foo@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:05 if I ever get altruistic impulse to release stuff, my next project will be to make slime documentation mode do some auto-markdown, auto-reflowing paragraphs, and linking all capital words to slime inspector 22:50:08 Yes, toplevel macrolet for a set of closely related functions that are mostly boilerplate is handy 22:51:00 coz currently its a pain to read documentation in default browser, it looks sucky, 1st line is always too short (due to :documentation "blah" startring at column 40 or so in original source) 22:51:13 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-152-66.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:23 -!- dabd [~dabd@a81-84-73-69.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:52:13 Xach: I always end up regretting use of such macrolet when it misbehaves, and I have to convert it to macro just so I can C-c C-m it in slime.. Unless I'm missed some very obvious way to do that, which if exist would make me feel pretty sad 22:53:08 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-7-233.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 22:53:37 LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-8-26.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:35 impulse32 [~impulse@65.92.153.91] has joined #lisp 22:57:12 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-179-113.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-179-113.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:57:13 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 22:57:31 ignacio [~ignacio@unaffiliated/ignacio] has joined #lisp 22:57:48 maxm-: I think there's a macrolet-macroexpand but I don't know what it is. 22:57:52 Maybe the standard way? 23:00:04 stassats might know 23:00:07 he's the slime tipster 23:00:18 -!- y3di [~y3di@c-76-117-145-92.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:00:43 *maxm-* has it in TODO list to automate it, (ie detect C-c C-m when inside of toplevel macrolet and do the needful) 23:00:58 but always falls through to the bottom of the pile 23:03:34 -!- Dodek [am291698@duch.mimuw.edu.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:03:41 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-69-212-127-115.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 23:03:49 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 23:04:02 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 23:05:53 daem0n [~yaargh@unaffiliated/mryaargh] has joined #lisp 23:06:08 -!- daem0n [~yaargh@unaffiliated/mryaargh] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:06:40 Xach: no, there's none currently 23:08:01 Any suggestions on a "must have" speaker for the next ILC? 23:10:02 -!- ikki [~ikki@62-r9-r1m.bb.itelcel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:10:29 *Xach* scratches chin 23:10:55 PBS guy who teaches to draw? coz hes very motivational, every time I channel surf to him, I stop, make resolution to start drawing, then never do it 23:11:04 s/to draw/to paint/ 23:11:14 bob ross? 23:11:17 Bob ross is dead man. Hate to break it to you. 23:11:21 doh 23:11:24 lmao 23:13:01 nuntius: I'm drawing a blank. The people I'd like to hear are more people I'd like to have a beer and/or tea with, not necessarily sit and listen to. 23:13:18 all people i'd like to hear are dead 23:13:26 *maxm-* has several way stupid suggestions 23:13:38 people who make the stuff i use, like nikodemus or jsnell or lukego or gbyers or edi 23:13:40 like mike tyson 23:13:43 stassats: that makes it a bit harder 23:13:52 guy actually pretty smart if you listen to his interviews 23:14:29 Would one of the "teach the children" guys interest you? 23:14:31 maxm-: is that a lisp joke? 23:14:36 nuntius: repenning? 23:14:37 Xach: what about this guy who makes Swiftlisp or whatchacallit? 23:14:49 repenning or one of the schemers 23:14:58 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:15:10 I'm not going, so my opinion should not count much, but I don't have much interested in hearing from them. 23:15:29 *Xach* heard too much "CL is just awful" from repenning for his tastes 23:15:30 I'm just fishing for ideas. 23:15:32 -!- redsky [~vigil@adsl-074-229-197-048.sip.mco.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:15:44 ah. good to know. 23:15:54 he still uses it, so maybe it's affectionate bitching 23:16:10 nuntius: if all fails, invite Xah Lee 23:16:11 kenny tilton, superhacker of mcna 23:16:15 :P 23:16:33 Xah, meet flying frogs. FIGHT 23:16:41 on a serious note, I would love to hear from people using lisp seriously in production, in a non-trivial manner (ie not I run a a niche forum) 23:18:22 maxm-: jack harper at ECLM was cool. he makes a hardware device that's lisp powered. 23:18:22 excluding lisp vendors that is 23:18:32 what about Rich Hickey's latest endeavor? 23:18:43 maxm-: for taking fingerprints at booking 23:19:01 apparently his device is smaller, cheaper, and easier than the competition by orders of magnitude 23:19:34 heh I recently had to go through fingerprinting for citizenship, and the machine crashed 2 times while doing it (it was running windows) 23:19:35 -!- drdo [~drdo@ling0.drdo.eu] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 23:20:21 next time wash your fingers first 23:23:35 anyway the amount of libraries popping out on github etc, suggest that people are actually doing stuff with lisp, but doing what, I have no clue 23:24:15 can't be all for dicking around, since some libraries seem pretty hardcore.. /me is wondering what 200 gig image guy is doing 23:24:29 waiting 23:26:03 maxm-: hjs is at MSI; they do stuff like . 23:27:33 pkhuong: wow, pretty full-featured impressive based quick glance through table of content.. thanks for the link 23:27:52 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:27:56 *maxm-* loses his language abilities when he's impressed apparently 23:28:26 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 23:30:53 -!- ngz [~user@69.205.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:31:07 pkhuong: will tip of sbcl load 1.0.28 fasls? 23:31:16 no 23:32:57 -!- machine2 [~machine4@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: : http://www.beta.facefox.com/index.php?do=/user/register/] 23:39:56 maxm-: SBCL fasls are version specific. That's usually a lie, and you could frob the headers, but I'm pretty sure the format did change incompatibly since 1.0.28 (that's more than two years ago). 23:42:15 is sbcl generally more stable than gnu clisp? 23:42:31 in what way? 23:42:58 when I compile stumpwm with sbcl instead of clisp it crashes less often. 23:43:17 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129207010.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:43:35 many libraries are developed with sbcl and thus have fewer issues with it... 23:43:51 ok 23:44:23 how is stumpwm crashing? Does it use all the memory? 23:44:32 I can tell you specifically, a specific bug. 23:44:53 when I compile stumpwm with clisp this is the bug I get: 23:45:06 (not to flood, but there is not much chatter on here anyway) 23:45:10 1. open emacs. 23:45:11 no! 23:45:16 lisp paste... 23:45:19 ok 23:45:20 :) 23:45:21 sry 23:45:30 There's no feature I can test for TCO, is there? 23:45:33 It would be nice if there was 23:45:38 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-401018.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:45:41 nothing portable 23:45:54 just wait for the stack to blow up 23:46:16 Sgeo: checking the manual might help. 23:46:59 Code might have a tough time doing that 23:47:04 you can disassemble 23:47:07 http://pastebin.com/XXE5KZwS 23:47:12 sry for the flood 23:48:23 it does this every single time. 23:49:02 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 23:49:24 stumpwm is kind of full of bugs, its surprising it works at all. 23:49:53 *maxm-* caught at least 3 or 4 consistenly reproducible crashes, and working on the 5th one 23:50:07 I would report them to https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/stumpwm-devel 23:50:36 I want to set up http://l1sp.org/bugs/ to bounce to the right place to report bugs for any project 23:50:51 I'm hung up on the yak-shaving of user extensibility. But maybe it'll be a good testbed. 23:50:52 How many of those bugs are type conflict stuff? >.> 23:51:13 nuntius: ok 23:51:19 quickbug! 23:51:36 Xach, you run l1sp? 23:51:46 Also: yak-shaving? 23:51:48 Sgeo: I run l1sp.org 23:54:14 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-146-183.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:08 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-152-66.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:56:16 -!- lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:56:33 lcc: make sure threads are disabled. 23:56:59 pkhuong: ok 23:58:04 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp