00:02:51 -!- paul0 [~paul0@177.42.34.130] has quit [Quit: paul0] 00:05:38 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:24 -!- rson [~randy@c-68-32-170-89.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:08:12 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-181-61.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:08:22 rson [~randy@c-68-32-170-89.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:44 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-181-61.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:12:49 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:12:49 -!- Ralith [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:13:00 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-181-61.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:13:28 Ralith [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:25 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:17:25 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.16] has joined #lisp 00:23:23 wildnux [~wildnux@cpe-76-183-81-208.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:23:52 -!- spacebat [~spacebat@150.101.97.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:24:03 spacebat [~spacebat@150.101.97.47] has joined #lisp 00:25:46 _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.98.20] has joined #lisp 00:26:03 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.98.20] has left #lisp 00:28:55 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has joined #lisp 00:31:19 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 00:44:30 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:48:28 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129199074.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:52:29 KDr2 [~kdr2@125.34.41.106] has joined #lisp 00:54:19 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:54:46 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:55:27 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-255-50.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 00:55:38 homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-154-53.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:58:01 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-153-51.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:58:51 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 01:01:17 -!- homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-154-53.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:05:06 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-240-194-28.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:06 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-240-194-28.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:05:06 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 01:05:08 zulu_inuoe [~zulu_inuo@c-174-58-204-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:07 Hello all. Does anyone know of a CL library (done or in-progress) to produce spreadsheets (for excel and the like) ? 01:06:30 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:06:36 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 01:06:54 zulu_inuoe: there's a library that can do simple xlsx sheets...struggling to remember the name 01:07:17 there's cl-csv 01:07:18 buildnode is the name 01:08:13 Xach: Thanks as always. I'll look that up 01:08:53 It would be nice to have a more extensive library. I've used a perl library that builds binary .xls files but I'd rather have something all-lisp. 01:09:06 It was a pretty decently-written library. Would be nice to port. 01:09:15 stassats: I was contemplating that as well as using cxml to generate xml spreadsheets, but it's waaaay too verbose to do it like that 01:09:20 -!- Ralith [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:09:26 stassats: what's up with slime? someone suggested that the release yesterday was broken on windows. 01:09:34 i am not on the slime list...i guess i should join. 01:10:01 it has been fixed already 01:11:02 Xach: Yes. I need it for a current project (porting Perl code that used that library) so I was looking to see if there was any library I could contribute to, and if not start up my own 01:13:48 Xach: By the way, was this the perl library you were speaking of? http://homepage.eircom.net/~jmcnamara/ 01:15:43 Xach: if that's on sbcl, then it has been broken since the 3 December 01:19:01 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 01:24:58 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:27:54 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:29:05 -!- __main__ [~main@adsl-99-173-15-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:29:13 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 01:29:23 zulu_inuoe: yes. quite handy. 01:29:58 zulu_inuoe: i wound up writing a program to take a CSV with some column & cell markup and use writeexcel to produce a styled XLS 01:30:07 so i could use Lisp most of the way, and then convert 01:30:13 pspace [~andrew@d118-75-26-80.nap.wideopenwest.com] has joined #lisp 01:30:23 oh, and to glom together multiple CSVs as multiple sheets in one doc 01:33:31 csv-parser:write-csv-line works well :) 01:33:44 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-240-202-7.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:44 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-240-202-7.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:33:44 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 01:35:07 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:35:32 Xach: I see. Does buildnode not do enough for you? If not, what's lacking (I'd like to know if there's a glaring deficiency before I start using it)? I'd be happy to port over that Perl module if I get some time 01:36:08 -!- naryl [~weechat@188.134.95.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:36:10 kanru` [~user@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:22 __main__ [~main@adsl-99-173-15-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:24 -!- jjkola [~jjkola@xdsl-83-150-83-66.nebulazone.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:37:01 naryl [~weechat@188.134.95.93] has joined #lisp 01:37:47 My code was done before I knew about buildnode 01:38:48 urandom__ [~user@p548A4A27.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:39:38 Xach: Oh okay. I'll let you know what my experience is with it! 01:41:43 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:42:01 jjkola [~jjkola@xdsl-83-150-83-66.nebulazone.fi] has joined #lisp 01:43:31 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:46:01 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:46:50 snits [~snits@75-167-2-163.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:49 kmcorbett_ [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 01:53:44 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:55:01 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:55:27 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@188.250.87.167] has joined #lisp 02:08:14 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:08 cbp` [~user@187.208.0.7] has joined #lisp 02:09:35 springz [~springz@199.119.206.50] has joined #lisp 02:09:40 -!- inaimathi [~inaimathi@bas1-toronto61-1279436950.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:10:02 *Xach* fights for your right to lisp 02:10:43 -!- kmcorbett_ [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quit] 02:12:49 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:13:26 kfangs [~kfangs@adsl-162.46.190.41.tellas.gr] has joined #lisp 02:14:55 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 02:14:56 :D 02:24:43 gko [~gko@220.228.255.202] has joined #lisp 02:28:26 -!- SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:29:02 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-154-53.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:31:00 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-213-013.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:32:30 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:33:13 maxm-: "09:53:09 nah screw hyperspec.. I doubt many ppl knew about it, coz I would have seen it reading code" 02:33:17 ^-- There will always be a pretty hard cap on your CL knowledge unless you spend a lot of time reading the spec. You can't always just divine things or discover them by happenstance. I mean, you can survive like that, but that won't confer you deep knowledge. 02:33:51 Ralith: "12:34:29 stassats: oh, is NIL actually a legitimate thing for code-char to return? I had the impression it was a CCL issue." 02:33:56 ^-- And that's one reason why return values hints in Slime would be nice. We should have "(code-char) => character/nil" soon. :) 02:34:07 oo! 02:34:15 how? 02:34:25 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 02:34:26 curated lookup table? 02:34:53 "screw hyperspec.. I doubt many ppl knew about it" 02:34:54 what. 02:35:03 PUSHNEW 02:35:07 you mean there are people who *don't* refer to the hyperspec at every opportunity? 02:35:14 o.O 02:35:20 maxm, apparently. 02:35:30 how can you even idle in this channel without seing it bandied about constantly 02:35:39 it's one of the nicer things about using CL 02:36:26 Ralith: For return values hints, https://github.com/Hexstream/return-values-hints is a project stub for the CL side. I'm hoping to successfully outsource the Emacs side to stassats. :) 02:36:42 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:15 I already compiled a list of return values hints for more than half of the operators. I expect to finish that part tomorrow. 02:38:26 There's an elisp program that shows static arglist hints for CL symbols. I used to suggest it a lot back before clisp arglist hints improved. 02:38:36 *Xach* can't remember the name any more 02:43:34 I get a new failure in Slime, I'm not sure what's the problem exactly. http://paste.lisp.org/display/128206 02:44:09 o god no 02:45:49 By the way the /tmp/slime-fasls/package.lisp part is normal, per se, I have (setq slime-compile-file-options '(:fasl-directory "/tmp/slime-fasls/")) in my slime-connected-hook. 02:46:15 So there might not actually be a lot of people affected by this bug, only those that do this. 02:46:54 Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-89-180.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 02:47:00 bobbydrake [~bobbydrak@unaffiliated/bobbydrake] has joined #lisp 02:47:49 -!- lusory [~bart@bb115-66-195-54.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:49:23 -!- bobbydrake [~bobbydrak@unaffiliated/bobbydrake] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:49:24 Oh, so starting a new image and reloading fixed the problem. 02:49:34 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483A9EA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:23 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-213-013.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 02:51:25 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A732.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:52:46 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 02:53:40 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A4A27.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:54:40 Hum. I can't reproduce the problem anymore. Oh well. Must have done something weird somehow. 02:59:22 -!- gko [~gko@220.228.255.202] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:00:31 -!- Phoodus [~foo@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:03:07 Suppose I just have a bunch of related data, say a name and a gender. Might it make sense to not bother making a class, and use an alist or plist? If so, which. I think (list 'name "Sgeo" 'gender :male) might work better with destructuring-bind and destructuring-case? 03:03:18 Similarly to Haskell's data types? 03:03:56 Sgeo_: I find alists to be easier to work with than plists, when either format will do. 03:04:37 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-schpierjkrbhjqzk] has joined #lisp 03:04:40 But in this case I'd just use CLOS. 03:04:42 Ok. Which is the thing I just did? 03:04:49 And CLOS seems a bit verbose sometimes. 03:04:51 >.> 03:04:53 destructuring-case? 03:04:57 Sgeo_: Get over it. 03:04:58 Xach, in alexandria 03:05:26 destructuring-bind will be easier if you use keywords for keys. 03:05:30 Sgeo_: The verboseness is there for a reason and well-justified. 03:05:52 Compared to data Person = String Gender 03:05:56 data Gender = Male | Female 03:05:57 :/ 03:06:24 Xach, ooh, ok 03:07:40 pnathan [~Adium@76.178.164.157] has joined #lisp 03:09:20 ... We should probably have a "List of frequent newb instincts that are wrong and why they're wrong and what to do instead" article. "Wrapping DEFCLASS for less verbosity" would be pretty high on that list. 03:09:40 That would be ok 03:10:44 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 03:10:48 they're called "algebraic" 03:11:11 I think I like algebraic data types. 03:12:15 they are nice things. 03:12:22 Lisp doesn't have them. 03:12:25 :( 03:12:28 lebro [~monx@ool-18bc4a28.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:38 you could implement them, of course. 03:12:52 shadwick [~erik@S01060026f395c2b7.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:53 I don't think it'd be particularly hard. 03:13:18 Ralith: I beg to differ 03:14:10 okay! 03:14:19 every variable is an infinite OR (sum-types) and if you want an AND (product-types) you generally use a list 03:14:35 that doesn't sound like a very good reason why it would be particularly hard. 03:14:50 Ralith, I think he's differing on whether Lisp has them 03:14:50 or are you replying to "lisp doesn't have them?" 03:14:57 because those aren't ADTs. 03:15:22 basically, algebraic datatypes are built-in to lisp, they just aren't as strict as Haskell's 03:15:34 sure, and they're built-in to assembly, too. 03:15:37 and any other turing machine. 03:15:38 lol 03:15:50 that's one way of putting it 03:15:56 as is every other conceivable abstraction or interpretation of data. 03:16:09 however, none of that is remotely of interest to Sgeo_. 03:16:20 except insofar as that it has bearing on the ease of implementing ADTs in lisp. 03:16:30 what makes ADTs so nice is their strictness 03:16:33 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 03:19:02 dys` [~andreas@krlh-4d02ba64.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:15 -!- rotty [~rotty@de.xx.vu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:20:19 -!- twopi [~tristan@lvps176-28-16-172.dedicated.hosteurope.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:20:28 Hexstream: what's wrong with wrapping defclass for less verbosity? 03:20:36 -!- rabite_ [~rabite@4chan.fm] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:21:02 -!- dys [~andreas@krlh-d9be7074.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:21:04 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-129-104.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:09 pnathan: So many things... 03:21:14 Hexstream: arglist printing is done at CL side 03:22:29 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:23:01 Hexstream: like? 03:23:03 stassats: Hah, awesome. But anyway, I guess what I meant is that I don't really want to touch Slime/swank unless I really have to. Though touching swank would be much easier to me than Slime. Maybe my reluctance is unwarranted. 03:24:14 When SLIME sees that I'm doing make-instance 'my-class and knows what my-class will accept, is that hard-coded into SLIME, the recognition of make-instance, or is there something that make-instance does that clues SLIME in? 03:24:21 pnathan: First of all, if that's an acceptable thing to do, then everyone has their own preferences, and it's a mess when it comes to reading other people's code, and most of those who things wrapping DEFCLASS is fine have pretty bad taste. Which is compounded by the fact that such wrappings don't tend to compose together... 03:25:07 Ah.. so is there anything wrong with it besides style concerns? 03:25:23 Sgeo_: initialize-instance and class initargs 03:25:33 Also, you should actually think carefully about every initarg and reader and writer you want to supply and what their names are, and who's allowed to use them (internal VS export)... Especially if you want to go the GF protocols way, which is pretty great. 03:26:24 stassats, sure, but is SLIME specifically programmed to look at that when it sees make-instance being used? 03:26:26 rotty [~rotty@de.xx.vu] has joined #lisp 03:26:33 Hexstream, GF protocols 03:26:35 ? 03:26:38 rabite_ [~rabite@4chan.fm] has joined #lisp 03:26:42 Sgeo_: no, it evolved this on its own 03:27:10 if you leave slime in a dark place it grows new features 03:27:27 hee 03:27:33 stassats: Haha. It's evolving too slowly. It can't write my code for me yet. 03:27:36 stassats, I was thinking as opposed to perhaps typical definitions of make-instance having hints to tools in general, and thus being able to give such hints within my own functions. 03:27:42 Sgeo_: Here's an example: https://github.com/Hexstream/clos-featuresets/blob/master/main.lisp (it's not finished, but should give you an idea.) 03:28:12 (GF as in generic-function, if that wasn't clear.) 03:28:21 Sgeo_: yes, you can give hints to your own functions 03:28:59 twopi [~tristan@lvps176-28-16-172.dedicated.hosteurope.de] has joined #lisp 03:29:57 Hexstream, if validate-superclass gets things that aren't in that combination, does it signal, or what happens? Because I don't see when it would return something other than t. 03:30:18 Sgeo_: do you know MOP? 03:30:21 Well, not sure if that's as clear as I thought it would be, but in a nutshell, working in terms of GF protocols is a lot about de-emphasizing specific classes and slots, and thinking in terms of the semantics of your generic-functions instead. The specific class layout and implementation is seen as secondary. 03:30:47 stassats, no. 03:31:04 -!- ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has left #lisp 03:31:33 Sgeo_: that code uses MOP 03:32:12 Well, maybe even more than "secondary" it's a mere implementation detail. And mixins are much more interesting with that worldview. They help you provide focussed pieces of "pre-built" functionality, mostly. 03:33:40 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:34:09 (Before this GF-protocols mindshift I found very little practical use for mixins. They didn't seem to apply often, as I tended to put way too much (slots and functionality) into a "base class".) 03:36:08 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 03:36:54 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 03:38:02 I'm more inclined to think that mixins are a kind of mistake. 03:38:23 What kind? 03:38:23 The purpose that they serve is to attempt composition by inheritance. 03:38:57 kmcorbett_ [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 03:39:03 They can be useful for dispatching/specialization, too. 03:39:16 Maybe a better approach would be to support cleaner composition. 03:40:26 To put it more clearly, it seems to me that mixins attempt composition by smashing several instances together into one sack. 03:44:51 The sharing of identity can be useful, for instance if you have some "2-dimensional" structure where you have a hierarchy (or just sequence) of a certain kind on one axis and another one, orthogonal to the first one... Ok so I'm probably explaining this badly, but once I had some scheme like that where I'd have to explicitly switch from one axis to another... 03:45:08 xjrn [~chatzilla@c-67-174-244-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:28 And I had, for each node, one object specific to each axis... Anyway, to cut things short, I had lots of problems with identity, I couldn't correctly compare nodes with EQ unless I ensured I had the object corresponding to the right axis. What I should have done is used a mixin of the 2 structures. 03:47:27 Hexstream: "Can be useful" is always as a weak argument, as things like "not having functions" can be useful, and so on. 03:48:15 Zhivago: I don't think you have a strong argument against mixins either, so... let's keep it at that I guess. 03:48:33 Hexstream: mixin composition works by accident. 03:48:43 It's an happy accident. 03:50:37 drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 03:54:07 -!- kfangs [~kfangs@adsl-162.46.190.41.tellas.gr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:58:59 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 03:59:50 sezo [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 04:00:44 hello. what lib can i use to play a mp3 file? 04:02:01 mixalot 04:02:42 thanks 04:05:57 -!- kmcorbett_ [kmcorbett@clozure-9FE07BBF.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 04:06:16 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:06:33 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:07:35 -!- lebro [~monx@ool-18bc4a28.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:08:21 -!- kmcorbett_ [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:09:15 kmcorbett_ [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 04:14:38 -!- X-Scale [email@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:14:58 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:15:02 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-255-50.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:15:21 -!- alvis [~alvis@tx-184-5-64-249.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:18:05 gko [~gko@220.228.255.202] has joined #lisp 04:18:05 saschakb_ [~saschakb@p4FEA121E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 04:21:30 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0F1E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:21:43 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 04:22:28 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 04:23:45 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:25:04 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.184.114] has quit [Quit: rme] 04:25:14 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:28:14 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl6-228-38.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 04:30:54 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #lisp 04:32:12 alvis [~alvis@tx-184-5-64-249.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 04:32:15 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@cpe-76-183-81-208.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 04:34:45 wildnux [~wildnux@cpe-76-183-81-208.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:40:34 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 04:40:48 inaimathi [~inaimathi@bas1-toronto61-1279436950.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 04:43:36 -!- kmcorbett_ [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quit] 04:44:20 [SLB] [~slabua@host89-69-dynamic.182-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 04:44:20 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host89-69-dynamic.182-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 04:44:20 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 04:48:32 There's no way to make a class that's, say, a predicate, is there? 04:48:51 A type that is a function? Eh? 04:49:13 Sgeo: I didn't understand your question 04:49:15 I'd like to be able to specialize on arbitrary predicates. 04:49:20 Sgeo_: With the MOP, you can make classes whose instances you can funcall. funcallable instances, they're called. Is that what you mean? 04:49:28 Sgeo_: can't do 04:49:33 Sgeo: ah.. perhaps you should google for Predicate Dispatch 04:49:44 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:49:53 Oh, that. 04:51:57 Sgeo_: Dispatching on arbitrary predicates is undecidable. How would you determine the order of the applicable methods? 04:53:24 What about something similar but less powerful, what I meant by my original question: Making a class, dispatchable-on, whose members are all items that satisfy a predicate. Actually, I guess that's the same. 04:53:56 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #lisp 04:54:28 -!- snits [~snits@75-167-2-163.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:54:56 Sgeo_: Maybe you could dispatch on a mixin?... Maybe something to do with CHANGE-CLASS, too, if you need such dynamicity. 04:55:47 Phoodus [~foo@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:55:59 change-class seems like it could be overkill. 04:57:00 Yeah, sure, it could be. Depends on your needs. I haven't actually used CHANGE-CLASS yet, exercises aside. 04:57:06 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:57:53 i use change-class to change classes 04:58:08 Some long time ago I read a thing on prototype multiple-dispatch. I think the only reason they're promoting the prototype model is because of the apparent dynamicity involved in being able to change parents. CLOS could easily do the same with change-class, I think. 04:58:08 not to do contrived head-stands 04:58:32 But it seems like overkill to get the apparent elegance in the paper. 04:59:11 I wonder, has anyone ever used CALL-NEXT-METHOD outside the dynamic extent of its method invocation? Or even just called it more than once within the same method invocation... 05:00:21 http://lee.fov120.com/ecoop.pdf 05:00:56 has anyone ever written non-standard programs? sure 05:01:08 stassats: What? That's standard. 05:01:18 (Surprisingly enough.) 05:01:36 "Unfortunately, unifying 05:01:36 highly dynamic, prototype-based languages with multi-methods is hard, because 05:01:36 traditional multi-methods assume a static class hierarchy that is not present in 05:01:36 dynamic prototype-based languages. 05:01:36 " 05:02:06 "The function call-next-method has lexical scope and indefinite extent and can only be used within the body of a method defined by a method-defining form." 05:02:25 Their example does not seem to be hindered by a static class hierarchy. It would be hindered by languages without a way to change the class of an object dynamically. 05:02:29 At least, as far as I can tell. 05:02:32 Ah, wait. Did I misunderstand something... 05:03:48 Would it be a bad idea to basically have a fixed number of possible states for an object be represented as each state being a class? 05:03:59 And then use change-class to change the state? 05:04:19 So as to get the sort of thing the PMD paper claims to have elegantly? 05:04:54 My understanding is that you can return #'call-next-method from within a method body and call it whenever you like. That has always been a bit surprising to me. (I mean, doesn't it have potential bad performance implications? And it's not a capability that's used often (or at all)). 05:05:44 that's not my understanding 05:08:28 snits [~snits@75-167-2-163.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:08:30 I guess it depends on what "within the body of a method" means in this context. I always thought that meant *lexically* within the body of a method, but maybe it means within the *dynamic-extent* of the method invocation... I think that passage is not as clear as it could be. 05:08:40 Hexstream: no, it means lexically. 05:08:52 It is very clear. 05:09:13 But would I be able to put it into a global variable and funcall it later? 05:09:19 I'd lose the name but not the actual function. 05:09:21 pkhuong: Ok, so I was right then? You can just return #'call-next-method from a method invocation and call it whenever you like later? 05:09:22 that's what it sayd. 05:09:27 *says 05:09:41 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 05:10:07 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 05:10:25 History has told me not to go against stassats' understanding, so I was hesitant. 05:10:54 it says it exists at those points, but can it be used? 05:11:41 From the way the MOP works, it's fairly logical that it should, also. 05:13:17 ins0mniac|2 [kvirc@117.225.25.80] has joined #lisp 05:13:24 I have a feeling I'll be wrecking my brain for some time to find a nice use-case for this feature. 05:13:44 I'm sure there's one, though! 05:13:44 -!- sezo [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Quit: #yhiselamu | www.yhiselamu.ee (EOF)] 05:15:48 it appears as though by use CLHS means refer to, so yes, you can call it 05:16:39 *DataLinkDroid* wonders if Hexstream wants to rack his brain instead of wreck it... 05:17:16 I want neither, I don't like brain torture. 05:17:19 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:18:53 *DataLinkDroid* laughs 05:22:34 Ohgoshwouldyoulookatthetime. 05:22:35 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 05:26:03 rvrebane [~rvrebane@valjapaas.vkhk.ee] has joined #lisp 05:30:38 -!- ins0mniac|2 [kvirc@117.225.25.80] has left #lisp 05:33:35 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-124-232.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:52 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-129-104.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:35:52 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 05:37:41 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 05:38:20 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.235.228] has joined #lisp 05:40:53 -!- inaimathi [~inaimathi@bas1-toronto61-1279436950.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:51:49 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 05:56:02 -!- gko [~gko@220.228.255.202] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:57:05 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-154-53.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:57:10 -!- parabolize [~gyro@c-75-70-14-105.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:58:29 -!- maxm- [~user@openchat.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:58:56 parabolize [~gyro@c-75-70-14-105.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:06 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-154-53.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:02:16 Skola_ [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 06:03:48 -!- Modius [~user@cpe-70-123-128-240.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:04:16 BountyX [~andrew@d118-75-26-80.nap.wideopenwest.com] has joined #lisp 06:04:45 -!- pspace [~andrew@d118-75-26-80.nap.wideopenwest.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:05:46 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@p57A57938.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:06:29 wakeup [~wakeup@p5DE8DC77.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:07:43 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.58.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:09:04 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:09:37 -!- rvrebane [~rvrebane@valjapaas.vkhk.ee] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:10:28 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 06:11:01 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:13:21 Modius [~user@cpe-70-123-128-240.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:15:17 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:18:30 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@ip-89-176-173-114.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:18:45 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:19:24 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@p5DE8DC77.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:19:29 wakeup [~wakeup@p5DE8DC77.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:21:32 -!- DataLinkDroid [~David@120.154.100.168] has quit [Quit: Bye] 06:22:35 Woah, SBCL implements MOP completely perfectly? 06:26:53 who saiz that ? 06:27:50 http://common-lisp.net/project/closer/repos/closer-mop/features.txt 06:27:56 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.89.251] has joined #lisp 06:28:03 SBCL 1.0.55 06:28:03 All features implemented. (In SBCL 1.0.47, there is a glitch with methods on slot-boundp-using-class, which may not work in all cases.) 06:29:32 -!- ozzloy [~ozzloy@unaffiliated/ozzloy] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:31:46 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-lcqkcypdldepxoxf] has joined #lisp 06:32:28 ozzloy [~ozzloy@ozzloy.lifeafterking.org] has joined #lisp 06:32:40 -!- ozzloy [~ozzloy@ozzloy.lifeafterking.org] has quit [Changing host] 06:32:40 ozzloy [~ozzloy@unaffiliated/ozzloy] has joined #lisp 06:33:20 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@p5DE8DC77.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:33:24 yes, SBCL implements MOP completely perfectly 06:33:41 wakeup [~wakeup@p5DE8DC77.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:35:39 hefner [~hefner@c-69-255-57-56.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:36:55 (that's not actually true: we document some exceptions) 06:38:02 Hmm, so why does the c2mop thing say what it does? 06:38:56 Written by evil goblins. 06:40:48 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-152-188.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 06:43:04 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-237-83.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:45:22 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.106.180] has joined #lisp 06:45:57 because the exceptions are extremely minor compared with the bogons that c2mop is fixing 06:46:13 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-152-188.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:51:54 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-136-196.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 06:53:46 kmcorbett_ [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 06:56:26 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:57:34 -!- yroeht [~yroeht@x.yroeht.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:59:24 -!- xjrn [~chatzilla@c-67-174-244-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:00:25 yroeht [~yroeht@x.yroeht.eu] has joined #lisp 07:01:25 What sort of code often has funcallable instances? 07:01:35 That are not normal functions? 07:03:29 *hefner* has never written a funcallable instance, is glad he has something to look forward to. 07:04:18 I think Closure is what you're looking for under the hood. But I'm not sure. 07:06:25 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 07:07:16 pnathan, Closure? 07:07:56 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closure_(computer_science) 07:09:37 Oh, was mislead by the capitalization 07:09:49 Raging shift key. 07:10:02 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 07:11:56 -!- pnathan [~Adium@76.178.164.157] has quit [Quit: sleep] 07:14:11 -!- kmcorbett_ [kmcorbett@clozure-9FE07BBF.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quit] 07:14:11 -!- kmcorbett_ [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quit] 07:14:47 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:16:14 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:20:12 -!- Skola_ [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:21:21 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 07:21:32 Sgeo: A generic function is a funcallable instance. 07:22:24 Lexical closures aren't implemented as funcallable instances, normally. 07:24:12 -!- Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-89-180.iburst.co.za] has quit [Quit: Eish] 07:24:21 Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-89-180.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:24:33 Would it have made any sense for funcall to have been a generic function? 07:25:00 TheMue [~TheMue@p5DDF5122.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:25:03 -!- Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-89-180.iburst.co.za] has quit [Client Quit] 07:25:07 Sure. 07:25:13 Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-89-180.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:25:25 It would make some kind of sense for all standard functions to be generic functions. 07:26:19 blandest [~blandest@ip4-85-204-33-242.euroweb.ro] has joined #lisp 07:26:20 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-mwppzzdganisqaxj] has joined #lisp 07:29:17 -!- Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-89-180.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:29:44 -!- Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:30:14 Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-89-180.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:31:41 -!- Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-89-180.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:33:11 Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-89-180.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:33:54 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-44-101.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:34:00 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.89.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:34:47 -!- Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-89-180.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:34:51 keltvek [~keltvek@89-212-113-105.static.t-2.net] has joined #lisp 07:34:54 Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-89-180.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:36:44 -!- Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-89-180.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:37:53 Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-89-180.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:38:39 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-25-71.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:38:43 -!- Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-89-180.iburst.co.za] has quit [Client Quit] 07:38:53 Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-89-180.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:40:15 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-145-218.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 07:42:52 Is there an idiomatic way to achieve something along the lines of a C pointer-to-pointer, i.e. an object which refers to another object and can be copied, and modified such that all copies of that object are updated to point at a different object simultaneously? 07:44:01 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:44:15 -!- Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-89-180.iburst.co.za] has quit [Quit: Eish] 07:44:21 Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-89-180.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:44:22 Ralith: use a cons cell and change the CAR? 07:44:38 zero-dimensional array :) 07:44:49 you could hide that abstraction in a class, though 07:44:52 anything mutable will do. 07:45:01 -!- cbp` [~user@187.208.0.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:45:09 -!- Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-89-180.iburst.co.za] has quit [Client Quit] 07:45:09 hefner: shouldn't that better be a one-dimensional array of length 1? zero dimensions is a bit ... limited ;) 07:45:18 hefner: I'm aware; I was hoping for something more semantically meaningful than an arbitrary container type. 07:45:19 Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-89-180.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:45:46 (defstruct my-awesome-reference to) 07:46:10 -!- Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-89-180.iburst.co.za] has quit [Client Quit] 07:46:18 nothing standard exists to that effect? 07:46:19 Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-89-180.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:46:19 -!- peccu1 [~peccu@ZL196245.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:46:23 I suppose a struct would be a good approximation. 07:46:48 flip215: try it. 07:46:51 samebchase [samuel@pi.nipl.net] has joined #lisp 07:47:09 flip215: in formal terms, a zero-dimensional array is an array which can have only one value, as I understand it. 07:47:18 peccu1 [~peccu@ZL196245.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:47:35 think of it in terms of spaces 07:47:39 that clashes a bit with my understanding 07:47:43 an n-dimensional array is an n-dimensional space. 07:47:53 volume, surface, line, point. 07:47:56 3, 2, 1, 0 07:48:10 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 07:48:40 in other words: an N-dimensional array with m values in each dimension can store m^N values; so for zero dimensions it stores exactly one. 07:48:41 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-152.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:48:47 strange, but possibly true. 07:49:18 (make-array () :initial-contents :a) gives #0A:A 07:49:40 A zero dimensional array can hold an item. 07:50:07 but, TBH, I'd expect a cons cell to be more efficient in terms of memory use and speed 07:50:35 Yes. 07:50:49 (make-array 1 :initial-contents '(:a)) ... #(:A) 07:50:53 -!- Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-89-180.iburst.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:51:50 nice.. updated slime using quicklisp and now it gives me an error about not finding swank-clipboard.. removing from slime-setup list 07:52:02 -!- peccu1 [~peccu@ZL196245.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:55:06 naeg [~naeg@170-18-182-46.NbIServ.com] has joined #lisp 07:55:32 flip215: I don't care that much about constant factors, at least not in advance of benchmarking. 07:56:08 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-191-242.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:57:06 hmmm... noticed that quicklisp didn't remove old slime dirs, so removed them myself and now I get another error, this time about swank::symbol-indentation 07:57:07 Is there something similar to Smalltalk's doesNotUnderstand? I saw something that looks like it's done when there's no applicable thingies for a generic function, but it looks like that would have to specialize on the function rather than any of the arguments. 07:57:15 bas_ [~bas@89.184.179.185] has joined #lisp 07:57:15 -!- bas_ is now known as Skola 07:57:38 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-124-232.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:57:42 Sgeo_: if you want a default implementation for a genfun, specialize on t 07:58:14 and apparently this bug doesn't happen every time 07:58:16 sigh. 07:59:08 teggi [~teggi@113.172.47.199] has joined #lisp 07:59:08 Sgeo_: there's no-applicable-method 07:59:23 splittist [d417faa6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.23.250.166] has joined #lisp 07:59:24 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 07:59:45 Ralith, I want an object that, when something calls any generic function with it as the first argument, there's code in place to, say, re-call the generic function on another object. 07:59:48 A proxy, basically. 08:00:12 In Smalltalk, doesNotUnderstand: gets sent when something tries to send a message that the object doesn't know anything about. 08:00:13 ..but it won't do what he wants. 08:00:53 hefner, that was the thing I saw that I mentioned before, I think. 08:01:24 ehu [~ehuels@109.34.129.55] has joined #lisp 08:01:49 Xach: re quicklisp release, on rm -rf ~/.cache/common-lisp and (ql:quickload :hu.dwim.reiterate) I get this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/128207 08:01:53 morning 08:02:11 you could probably rig something up with no-applicable-method and a handler-bind, but that sounds like a horrible idea. 08:02:31 er, I don't think that made sense. 08:03:09 no, it didn't. oh well, back to hacking. 08:03:41 Sgeo_: how about an object with a metaclass that has a different method calling combination and an EQL specification? 08:04:19 nauar [~nauar@ip235200.bcn.altecom.net] has joined #lisp 08:04:28 Sgeo_: the first argument of a genfun is not special. 08:04:30 I don't know much about the MOP or what a method calling combination is. 08:04:47 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:07:46 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 08:07:50 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@143.93.53.41] has joined #lisp 08:10:14 wow, spatial-trees got updated? 08:10:21 *hefner* wondered about that too. 08:11:17 oh, it has a repo on github now 08:11:50 although last commit there is from 3 months ago 08:12:25 3 months ago beats my last commit, which is from 6 years ago 08:12:49 oGMo foolishly said that he actually _used_ spatial-trees, so I gladly passed over the sputtering torch of maintainership 08:14:05 spatial-trees? 08:14:39 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:14:49 Sgeo_: yes, spatial-trees! 08:19:34 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.47.44] has joined #lisp 08:19:34 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.47.44] has quit [Changing host] 08:19:34 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:19:42 Sgeo_: it's sort of Ax Men meets Star Trek 08:19:56 ! 08:20:07 peccu1 [~peccu@ZU204061.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:21:12 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-191-242.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:21:43 lol 08:22:10 I'm going to do the shark and fish example with change-class. 08:22:21 Please tell me if the code I write is fundamentally a terrible idea 08:22:45 kilon [~user@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 08:25:14 rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:27:02 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-152.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:27:37 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-152.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:29:40 Using change-class is generally a terrible idea. 08:30:20 :/ 08:31:05 a terrible idea I'm recently enamored with, unfortunately. 08:32:55 good morning 08:38:13 fractal_heart [~mzhang@adsl-71-146-129-174.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:38:32 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:39:07 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 08:39:38 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-mwppzzdganisqaxj] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:41:24 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@188.250.87.167] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:42:21 http://paste.lisp.org/display/128209 08:42:58 Basically my attempt to translate the code in Figure 4 of http://lee.fov120.com/ecoop.pdf to Common Lisp 08:43:02 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 08:43:03 Good idea in general, or bad idea? 08:43:38 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-152.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:43:40 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-222-130.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:43:43 jjkola_work [c064748e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.116.142] has joined #lisp 08:44:03 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-152.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:44:42 Sgeo_: is shark an animal or a fish? 08:45:15 shark is a non-fish animal 08:45:19 Or at least it should be. 08:47:19 -!- BountyX [~andrew@d118-75-26-80.nap.wideopenwest.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 08:47:42 Why isn't a shark a fish? 08:48:00 Because the original code in the PMD paper didn't have shark be a fish 08:49:03 http://paste.lisp.org/display/128210 the original code (it was indented properly in the PDF...) 08:49:03 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:49:34 -!- springz [~springz@199.119.206.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:49:41 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:49:59 m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.119] has joined #lisp 08:50:14 Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-36-75.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:50:33 Hmm, I think my way of doing it may be missing the point of "prototype", although their example code for class-based multiple dispatch isn't this (because of not using a pseudo change-class) 08:51:35 argh, oops 08:52:05 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:52:16 Ignore the first annotation on that link 08:52:39 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-152.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:52:54 http://paste.lisp.org/display/128210#2 08:56:38 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 08:57:10 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-dkctdpjxxwevuvih] has joined #lisp 08:58:01 springz [~springz@199.119.206.50] has joined #lisp 08:58:29 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-152.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:59:56 -!- saschakb_ [~saschakb@p4FEA121E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:02:06 gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:04:53 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:05:56 I think that one thing that is commonly overlooked is that class is not intrinsic to instances. 09:06:12 It is extrinsic, and contained in the class-of operator. 09:07:58 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 09:08:33 -!- StrmSrfr [~user@208.72.159.205] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:08:58 StrmSrfr [~user@208.72.159.205] has joined #lisp 09:09:19 -!- kanru` [~user@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:09:23 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Client Quit] 09:09:49 Hmm? 09:10:00 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 09:10:49 The class of an instance is what class-of returns. 09:11:01 As opposed to anything particular in an instance. 09:11:33 Are there ways to change that other than change-class? Because changing that would probably be sufficient for this use-case. 09:11:38 So class is essentially an arbitrary classification that produces a latice of subclasses. 09:11:54 Not in CL. 09:12:32 But the point here is that you could do multimethod dispatch on any arbitrary classification system that produced a latice of subclasses. 09:13:09 -!- dys` is now known as dys 09:14:01 My only point with my code was that, contrary to what the PMD paper seems to imply, prototype-based systems are not the key to making their example of why their class-based multiple-dispatch example is ugly better. 09:14:12 Wow, that was unparsable. 09:15:00 -!- ebw` is now known as ebw 09:15:13 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:18:04 add^_ [~add^_^@m90-141-45-95.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 09:19:29 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-116-108.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 09:19:49 -!- fractal_heart [~mzhang@adsl-71-146-129-174.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:23:22 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-136-196.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:24:09 maxm- [~user@openchat.com] has joined #lisp 09:26:54 Ralith/Hexstream: it taken out of context, it was suggested that to really learn lisp, one needs to read the hyperspec from cover to cover, like a book.. My comment was referring to that.. I do use hyperspec to look up specific stuff 09:27:14 am0c [~am0c@175.127.181.245] has joined #lisp 09:28:19 -!- MrBusiness [~MrBusines@184.99.7.19] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:29:21 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-227-28.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 09:29:22 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:29:42 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:29:52 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-116-108.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:31:12 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@cpe-76-183-81-208.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:32:09 MoALTz_ [~no@92.2.136.0] has joined #lisp 09:32:31 -!- naeg [~naeg@170-18-182-46.NbIServ.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:32:44 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-schpierjkrbhjqzk] has left #lisp 09:33:32 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@92.2.136.0] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:33:59 MoALTz_ [~no@92.2.136.0] has joined #lisp 09:35:09 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-227-28.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:36:45 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 09:38:36 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-rtzvkxwgfroztyva] has joined #lisp 09:40:39 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 09:41:34 momo-reina [~user@aa20111001946f573a30.userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:43:10 -!- KDr2 [~kdr2@125.34.41.106] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:43:21 kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:44:33 are there any docs/tutorials on getting started with whistle? 09:46:43 I doubt it. 09:47:18 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:48:21 hmm... would it be better to get started with hunchentoot or other servers? 09:48:27 [SLB] [~slabua@host89-69-dynamic.182-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:48:27 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host89-69-dynamic.182-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 09:48:27 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 09:49:28 yes, there are some nice tutorials for hunchentoot. look at Lisp for the web 09:50:45 i read that article, it's a bit dated isn't it? i'll check it out again 09:51:06 it might be a bit outdated but hunchentoot comes with a good documentation. 09:51:51 it hunches, it toots, whats not to like 09:52:18 haha, ok thanks 09:52:49 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl6-228-38.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 09:52:56 a few weeks ago someone here said everyone was using either whistle or toot, i thought hunchentoot had been replaced 09:53:05 so i didn't pursue it 09:54:09 -!- prip [~foo@host63-120-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:54:25 I guess it was gigamonkey, he's is the developper of toot and whistle. 09:54:32 -is 09:54:59 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@92.2.136.0] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:55:47 what's the deal with people moving away from hunchentoot, anyway? 09:55:59 MoALTz_ [~no@92.2.136.0] has joined #lisp 09:56:01 nope, not him.. incidentally how is practical common lisp? is it worth reading through? i'm working my way through land of lisp and was undecided whether to jump straight into PG's On lisp or starting out with PCL 09:56:19 PCL is very good 09:56:27 *hefner* hasn't used hunch enough to be dissatisfied with it 09:56:37 practicality always wins over ivory towerism 09:57:04 i take it on lisp is the ivory tower? 09:58:48 momo-reina: "ivory tower" was referring to more functional approach in PAIP (paradagms something ai ) lisp boook. PCL gives much more balanced approach.. Not that PAIP isn't good, but it gives off "author would have rather used scheme" vibe 09:59:47 momo-reina: so if you only have time to read one of them, and want to write actual applications, rather then re-create macsyma from scratch, PCL is the book to read 09:59:52 maxm-: you're confusing PAIP with something else; PAIP is an excellent book. 10:00:19 jdz: it is excellent 10:00:39 jdz: just saying that if I had a choice to only read one, I would chose PCL over it 10:00:40 PAIP was actually on my list after on lisp 10:00:45 PAIP has no "author would rather used scheme" vibes 10:01:01 PAIP kicks ass 10:01:04 "well that's just, like, your opinion, man" 10:01:31 but does PCL cover anything that land of lisp doesn't? 10:01:49 jdz: that is the impression I got, with the amount of space given to CPS transforming chapter and basically the tutorial on writing macsyma 10:02:08 if paip had not ended with mini version of macsyma, then indeed I probably confusing it with something 10:02:17 you still need to implement CPS if you're using scheme 10:03:02 tomodo: I thought thats the whole point of scheme, that it has them natively? 10:03:54 -!- MikeSeth [~me@174-143-244-95.static.cloud-ips.com] has quit [Changing host] 10:03:54 MikeSeth [~me@unaffiliated/mikeseth] has joined #lisp 10:04:05 that's mixing up the host language with the object language 10:04:33 the code he gives would be basically the same in scheme 10:05:03 -!- joast [~rick@98.145.91.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:06:32 for me its 50/50% some advice norvig gives is good, especially chapters on optimization. But some advice such as: "avoid CLOS", "avoid macros" I strongly disagree with 10:06:47 yeah macros and CLOS are great 10:06:54 dunno why he would say that 10:07:06 secret schemer :-) 10:07:13 prip [~foo@host241-133-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 10:07:18 I think of him as a python programmer 10:07:22 in a function like (defun foo (*a*) ... (foo *a*)) -- that is, it's calling itself in a tail-recursive fashion, where *a* is a dynamic var 10:07:34 should it create a new dynamic binding each time, or reuse the existing one? 10:07:39 you don't confuse Norvig with Graham, by any chance? 10:08:00 cmm lemme google it, I may very well be 10:08:41 cmm http://lisptips.com/post/11221784630/paip-lessons then Ctrl-f CLOS, generic functions and macros 10:08:41 anyway, advising a newbie against macros may not be such a bad move. 10:10:10 imho Lisp macros are extremely easy to grasp, if person is already used to string interpolation in shell/perl/php. Its basically the same thing but it produces code rather then string 10:10:32 maxm-: Use macros (if really necessary). [p. 66] 10:12:21 drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 10:12:29 -!- am0c [~am0c@175.127.181.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:13:29 powerful abstractions should not be used gratuitously. 10:14:57 Ralith: thats the ivory towerist mindset imho. (again no insult intended, everyone has a right to opinion, and thats mine) 10:15:35 maxm-: the problem with jumping right into macros is that it potentially blinds you to better ways to solve the same problems 10:15:36 indeed; why power a cell phone with 12vdc when you can use 300kV? 10:15:41 Ralith: if I need a hole digged, given the choice of shovel or escavator, I would use an escavator 10:16:09 you may find that it doesn't make very good fencepost slots. 10:16:27 also, it's "excavator" 10:16:34 hefner, I've been wondering about that 10:16:38 because it excavates. 10:16:39 maxm-: good luck putting a painting on the wall with the excavator ;) 10:16:43 Would Lisp people really come up with the idea to use monads? 10:16:44 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.119] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:16:45 hefner: well I guess so, maybe my opinion is a bit biased, since I came to learn lisp after coding for 10+ years in other languages 10:17:05 Sgeo_: given that the first haskell implementations were in Lisp... 10:17:30 and having gone through "young coding hipster" stages of writing your own kernel, compiler, etc.. 10:17:49 *hefner* hopes to never outgrow that phase 10:18:28 *Sgeo_* is still trying to visualize how to do OR data types in CLOS 10:19:05 m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.119] has joined #lisp 10:19:43 mishoo: http://au.video.yahoo.com/stupidvideos-24317891/justplainstupid-24039268/excavator-s-precision-28315065.html 10:20:36 -!- momo-reina [~user@aa20111001946f573a30.userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:22:35 lol, sure that guy isn't a surgeon? 10:24:11 paul0 [~paul0@177.42.34.130] has joined #lisp 10:24:50 Is Cells dead or alive? 10:24:58 And I'm not talking about Game of Life >>> 10:25:00 >.> 10:25:42 define "alive" 10:26:17 last I heard Cells is in current production use 10:26:46 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 10:27:15 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 10:27:19 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Client Quit] 10:29:32 Hmm, that reminds me, I want to make a Game of Life thing where the board is infinite and initial conditions are randomly generated. 10:30:02 I thought of that with Haskell, but couldn't work out how to have a lazily determined value, once physically determined, get garbage collected and go back to being a thunk. 10:30:11 momo-reina [~user@aa20111001946f573a30.userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:30:20 So, with CL, I could do my own laziness stuff, which should be revertable. 10:30:45 -!- paul0 [~paul0@177.42.34.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:31:33 paul0 [~paul0@177.96.52.136] has joined #lisp 10:32:55 Sgeo_: so you generate an infinite number of bits? 10:32:57 -!- springz [~springz@199.119.206.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:33:51 Only when I need to do calculations that depend on those bits. 10:34:21 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:34:29 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 10:34:36 Lazy evaluation. But the key here, I think, is reversible evaluation too. Once I determine what some cells are, I want to be able to forget what they are when I look away, otherwise, it becomes a memory hog I think. 10:35:25 Hmm, or maybe not, I may have been thinking that I'd be holding onto previous values with each generation, since that makes a bit more sense with Haskell than Lisp 10:35:30 I should re-think about it. 10:35:52 -!- Skola [~bas@89.184.179.185] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:36:29 rudi [~rudi@1x-193.157.225.29.uio.no] has joined #lisp 10:36:37 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@143.93.53.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:38:11 KDr2 [~kdr2@123.122.99.9] has joined #lisp 10:38:19 bas_ [~bas@89.184.179.185] has joined #lisp 10:38:37 -!- bas_ is now known as Skola 10:41:10 I assume that you're familiar with 'hashlife'? 10:41:47 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl6-228-38.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 10:42:14 Sorry; you're clearly insane. 10:42:28 Dealing with an infinite amount of entropy is going to be a problem. 10:42:33 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-dkctdpjxxwevuvih] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:45:01 I don't have to get the random numbers from random.org or anything. Just using a seed from the time should be enough. Have each cell conceptually be assigned an initial value based off its location and the seed. Same seed+location = same value. 10:45:17 No one would use this for cryptographic purposes. 10:46:49 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pad-sh-1.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 10:48:40 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:50:31 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl6-228-38.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 10:53:08 i'm running into this problem when trying to install rfc2388.. {1004156D43}>\n (:EXTERNAL-FORMAT :ASCII):\n the octet sequence (196) cannot be decoded. 10:53:26 i tried doing a local asdf install, over the net, and quicklisp 10:53:27 momo-reina: and what does that tell you? 10:53:40 Read the error messsage! 10:53:45 Error message mean something! 10:53:46 don't really know... i'm not sure if it's my environment 10:54:08 sorry dude, i'm a bit of a newbie 10:54:13 It says that the external format is ASCII and that it tried to decode an octet 196 which is not an ASCII code! 10:54:20 so it cannot be decoded. 10:54:34 -!- shadwick is now known as shadwick_away 10:54:37 There is no character in the ASCII character set that has as code 196. 10:54:38 unless you wear your secret decoder ring. so obvious. 10:54:47 i get that, but where is the problem? is it my environment? 10:54:56 environment variables? 10:55:05 THe problem isthat you're trying to read a non ASCII file using the :ASCII external-format. 10:55:13 i don't think it's a bug in the code, as no one else has reported it 10:55:18 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-gaodsyfucaoyczmd] has joined #lisp 10:55:20 Why are you doing that? 10:55:29 i just ran asdf-install 10:55:46 Nonetheless, you need to use another external-format. 10:55:46 and after that tried with quicklisp, it's all automated 10:56:13 The default external-format depends on the implementation. What implementation are you using? 10:56:19 sbcl 10:56:40 Google for sbcl default external-format 10:56:54 looking into that right now thanks 10:58:17 emacsuser [~user@194.249.198.46] has joined #lisp 10:58:38 The question is what encoding that file is? Perhaps iso-8859-1, perhaps utf-8? 11:01:33 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:06:40 hi ! 11:06:55 Hi! 11:08:44 -!- lsenta is now known as noopyks 11:09:00 hey noopyks 11:09:08 will I see you today ? 11:11:21 Hi! 11:12:38 I hope so, I'd like to finish some report before 11:13:54 -!- shadwick_away [~erik@S01060026f395c2b7.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:14:35 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl21-72-233.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 11:14:58 Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@143.93.53.41] has joined #lisp 11:15:12 locale -a 11:15:30 -!- tempire [~tempire@pool-72-91-241-135.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 11:15:33 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pad-sh-1.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:15:44 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:15:45 Yes, but source files you get from afar are not necessarily in YOUR locale. 11:15:54 -!- Ragnaroek_ is now known as Ragnaroek 11:16:01 Hence you may want to set explicitely a default encoding in ~/.sbclrc 11:16:36 The right thing would be for ASDF to detect the encoding of the files and use the :external-format argument of COMPILE-FILE and LOAD. 11:16:38 *hefner* thinks everything related to locales is insane 11:19:31 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 11:21:34 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 11:21:46 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 11:22:36 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-152.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:24:12 from (sb-impl::default-external-format) 11:24:28 ANSI_X3.4-1968 11:24:37 i've tried changing LC_CTYPE 11:24:40 and LANG 11:24:54 but even then sbcl will just load that external format 11:24:54 Yes. I have (setf SB-IMPL::*DEFAULT-EXTERNAL-FORMAT* :utf-8) in ~/.sbclrc 11:25:11 i'll give that a shot 11:25:13 LC_ALL, or else LC_CTYPE or else LANG. 11:25:31 But as I said, your locale is personnal, library sources are not made by you. 11:26:30 LC_CTYPE and LANG didn't work, sbcl just loaded up the other locale 11:26:46 but that setting in .sbclrc did the trick 11:27:09 now i just hope and pray that that's the encoding that was used, there's no documentation for rfc2388 that i could find 11:27:14 and i need it for hunchentoot 11:28:59 momo-reina: hunchentoot has it's own variable for default external formats 11:29:22 i meant installing hunchentoot 11:29:27 hunchentoot:*hunchentoot-default-external-format* 11:29:30 it's a dependency 11:29:41 momo-reina: from quicklisp? 11:29:53 hunchentoot:*hunchentoot-default-external-format* is for http contents. 11:30:03 Not for reading the sources of the dependencies! 11:30:12 jdz: yup 11:30:30 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-44-101.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:30:55 momo-reina: quicklisp uses rfc2388 to download hunchentoot? i don't get it! 11:31:52 it downloads rfc2388 as well as hunchentoot since hunchentoot requires it 11:32:16 but rfc2388 wouldn't install due to the external format problem 11:35:31 probably i could fix that... 11:35:52 The right thing would be for ASDF to detect the encoding of the files and use the :external-format argument of COMPILE-FILE and LOAD. 11:36:18 the problematic file in question is rfc2388.asd i think 11:36:26 pjb: yes yes :) 11:36:57 pnq [~nick@ACA210C1.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 11:36:57 It contains "Jnis Deri ". 11:37:03 pjb: this is all confusing enough as it is, locales just get crazy 11:37:51 as sad as it may be for me personally, i have given up on believing that one could put non-ascii characters into lisp source files and expect it to work. 11:38:07 sbcl is particularly ungraceful in that respect. 11:38:27 i think everybody should assume UTF-8 by default 11:38:28 pjb: sorry if it seemed like i dumped everything here, i really couldn't figure out what was going on.. 11:38:38 fiveop [~fiveop@186.221.135.26] has joined #lisp 11:38:39 sbcl also does not like what it percieves an encoding error in the environment. 11:38:46 H4ns: that should be done by ASDF 11:38:48 jdz: i personally think that, too. 11:38:57 fe[nl]ix: right. blame someone else :) 11:39:24 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:39:26 in fact I'm going to patch it 11:40:14 fe[nl]ix: patch it so that it uses utf-8 for all source files read? 11:40:39 yes, by default 11:41:24 fe[nl]ix: thing is: as sbcl's reader ungracefully exits when there is an utf-8 encoding error, that change could also lead to more rather than less problems. 11:42:13 (just saying, not meaning to stop you( 11:42:31 unless overridden by a file variable 11:42:34 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.94.1] 11:43:02 iso-8859-1 files break utf-8. 11:43:14 excellent 11:44:31 what is the line containing "-*-" called ? 11:45:54 It's a file local variable line, but I've seen it called the mode line, since it often contains mode:xyz 11:46:03 Xach: re quicklisp release, on rm -rf ~/.cache/common-lisp and (ql:quickload :hu.dwim.reiterate) I get this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/128207 11:46:18 Seems to be a bad dependency that loads iterate too 11:46:38 See http://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blobs/master/tools/make-depends.lisp#line298 11:48:15 flip215: looks as if that is reiterate's problem, not quicklisp's? 11:48:41 don't know where the bad dependency comes from 11:48:53 compiled FASLs can be loaded after the second rty 11:48:54 *try 11:49:23 perhaps it's just a "build" dependency? 11:50:12 flip215: why do you think it is a build dependency problem? to me, it seems as if there is a conflict between reiterate and loop? 11:51:03 I thought it would be ITERATE and h.d.reiterate 11:51:48 flip215: i just look at the error message 11:52:22 well, just wanted to report the problem 11:53:16 flip215: well, just wanted to help you direct your problem report 11:53:45 thanks ;] 11:56:08 -!- momo-reina [~user@aa20111001946f573a30.userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:01:01 ebw` [~user@krlh-4d0205f3.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:01:53 flip215: Why do you have FINALLY in CL-USER? 12:02:22 flip215: How did it get there? 12:03:10 It also seems odd to me that something (reiterate?) is doing anything with cl-user 12:03:33 (let ((finally t)) (do-something finally)) 12:04:07 pjb: Please, no useless noise. 12:04:22 I can imagine how, I'd like to know exactly how. 12:04:43 flip215: what does your .sbclrc look like? 12:04:45 Xach: finally is not in my .sbclrc 12:04:58 -!- ebw [~user@krlh-4d021427.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:05:06 how would I find out where it's being imported? 12:06:02 flip215: Your .sbclrc might be a good place to check. Can you paste it? 12:06:56 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:07:30 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:08:00 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.16] has joined #lisp 12:08:37 Xach: I've pasted the beginning as annotation. 12:08:41 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:48 flip215: Why not the whole thing? I'd like something I can try myself. 12:12:32 flip215: well, here's something to try. sbcl --no-userinit --non-interactive --load ~/quicklisp/setup.lisp --eval "(ql:quickload :hu.dwim.reiterate)" 12:12:39 Does that work, or does it barf in the same way? 12:13:01 Xach: yeah, I did that, and it worked ... so I'm looking for the culprit in my .sbclrc 12:14:13 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has joined #lisp 12:15:46 killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has joined #lisp 12:16:21 (trace :condition-after (find-symbol "FINALLY" :cl-user) cl:use-package) triggers after alexandria 12:16:53 hmmm, but that's because of my (use-package :hu.dwim.reiterate) before quickloading alexandria 12:18:08 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:18:30 EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:26 -!- gensym [~tg@85.158.178.76] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 12:19:40 dtw [dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 12:20:03 gensym [~tg@85.158.178.76] has joined #lisp 12:20:42 Now tracing ql:quickload cl:make-package cl:intern, and I get the first report via 12:21:35 0: (COMMON-LISP:BREAK "break") 12:21:35 1: ((COMMON-LISP:LAMBDA ())) 12:21:35 2: 12:21:39 ;( 12:21:51 3: [RETRY ] Retry compiling #. 12:22:05 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA210C1.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 12:23:19 ~/.quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/closer-mop-20120305-darcs/closer-mop-packages.lisp has 12:23:25 (macrolet ((define-closer-common-lisp-package () with a LOOP in it ... 12:24:43 am0c [~am0c@175.127.181.245] has joined #lisp 12:25:07 adding (in-package #:closer-mop) before the macrolet helps a bit ... 12:25:34 (NAME-CONFLICT # USE-PACKAGE # HU.DWIM.REITERATE:FOR FOR) is the next problem ... 12:27:26 MoALTz [~no@92.2.136.0] has joined #lisp 12:27:54 -!- spacebat [~spacebat@150.101.97.47] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:28:26 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-152.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:29:42 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@92.2.136.0] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:30:11 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:30:15 pnq [~nick@ACA210C1.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 12:35:08 flip215: you are very new to this channel, right? 12:35:36 flip215: you know, we have this policy to not paste multiple lines to the channel. maybe you could use paste.lisp.org for that. 12:36:12 flip215: also, please contact the relevant package authors to solve your problem. 12:39:42 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:43:51 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:44:16 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:45:36 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:45:58 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 12:48:47 flip215: you basically used (loop ...) in cl-user, and then did (use-package :reiterate) 12:48:56 or something had used (loop) in cl-user 12:49:51 get rid of one or the other, or put (use-package :reiterate) before first usage of loop. (loop) does not care about package of symbols, it uses (symbol-name) on while/for/finally and such keywords 12:50:11 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA210C1.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:51:30 check ~/.swank.lisp too 12:52:43 -!- zulu_inuoe [~zulu_inuo@c-174-58-204-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #lisp 12:53:36 pnq [~nick@172.162.16.193] has joined #lisp 12:55:04 -!- am0c [~am0c@175.127.181.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:56:37 (btw with all respect to atilla guy, above is reason I'm still not using any hu.dwim packages). To use their iterate, it pulls 30 others 12:57:29 yeah, I'm trying to find out _what_ used loop in cl-user 12:57:54 just put (defmacro loop (&body body) (break)) as 1st line 12:59:02 you'll probably have to overwrite package lock for that, if its sbcl 12:59:03 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:01:15 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:02:14 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@186.221.135.26] has quit [Quit: humhum] 13:02:26 or a better idea, do (define-symbol-macro 'for (break)) 13:02:57 -!- alvis [~alvis@tx-184-5-64-249.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:03:12 maxm-: nice idea, thanks 13:03:41 flip215: won't work just tried it, loop runs fine, weird 13:03:51 I guess it does not macroexpand the keywords 13:04:47 (defmacro loop (&body body) (break)) is the only thing that works for me in sbcl 13:05:50 galiley [~user@46-47-94-53.sf.ddns.bulsat.com] has joined #lisp 13:06:30 maxm-: I'm currently using this: 13:06:31 (trace :condition-after (and (find-symbol "FOR" :cl-user) (break)) 13:06:32 ql:quickload cl:make-package cl:intern cl:load cl:loop) 13:07:32 loop does not macroexpand for 13:08:17 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-155-72.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:08:19 no, but at least I get an error at the right place 13:08:29 already found two packages that misbehave 13:08:38 -!- pnq [~nick@172.162.16.193] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 13:09:23 ah cool, then you are on your way.. Who are the bad guys? 13:10:37 contextl and closer-mop - every time in the -packages.lisp file 13:10:46 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-154-53.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:10:58 wrote an email to closer-devel 13:11:12 pnq [~nick@ACA210C1.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 13:11:59 heh I actually have to check log4cl, I remember I have loop in a reader macro in defpackage 13:13:10 -!- kilon [~user@178.59.17.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:13:16 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.154.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 13:14:19 live and learn, did not know about condition-after thing 13:16:18 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:18:09 alvis [~alvis@tx-184-5-64-249.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 13:18:25 -!- Mandus [~aasmundo@oro.simula.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:25:53 -!- dfox [~dfox@rei.ipv6.dfox.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:26:10 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA210C1.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 13:26:33 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.2.136.0] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:26:42 dfox [~dfox@rei.ipv6.dfox.org] has joined #lisp 13:27:49 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:28:37 pnq [~nick@ACA210C1.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 13:30:26 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-120-248.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 13:32:42 -!- emacsuser [~user@194.249.198.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:35:16 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 13:36:42 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 13:37:53 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Client Quit] 13:41:47 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-106.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 13:43:04 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:49:58 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 13:57:39 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:59:08 -!- rudi [~rudi@1x-193.157.225.29.uio.no] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 14:00:35 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.159.184] has joined #lisp 14:00:39 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@205.233.85.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:01:00 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 14:01:01 lemoinem [~swoog@205.233.84.225] has joined #lisp 14:01:05 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 14:02:52 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Client Quit] 14:03:37 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA210C1.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 14:04:47 pnq [~nick@ACA210C1.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 14:06:58 joast [~rick@98.145.85.206] has joined #lisp 14:07:45 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 14:07:54 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:09:46 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-401048.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 14:11:28 cbp` [~user@187.208.0.7] has joined #lisp 14:16:12 rme [~rme@50.43.184.114] has joined #lisp 14:17:25 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@116.19.141.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:18:22 I'll live, but I refuse to learn. 14:18:54 -!- Skola [~bas@89.184.179.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:19:07 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA210C1.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:20:03 Xach: some do it the other way around, http://www.darwinawards.com/legends/legends1999-03.html 14:21:32 pnq [~nick@ACA210C1.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 14:21:43 -!- docAvid [~user@74-94-233-157-Michigan.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:23:06 -!- a7p [a7p@9.83.238.89.in-addr.arpa.manitu.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:25:00 bjonnh [~bjonnh@147.210.71.83] has joined #lisp 14:27:19 dekuked [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:52 drwho [~drwho@216-122-174-206.gci.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:50 a7p [a7p@gargamel.neiwo.org] has joined #lisp 14:32:38 stlifey [~stlifey@116.19.141.78] has joined #lisp 14:35:38 -!- kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:36:08 jdz: it was just an "add a readme" commit but there will be a real update for iteration once i get cl-xcb-xlib "complete enough" 14:37:30 killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has joined #lisp 14:37:54 do anyone recommend me a lisp book for beginners? 14:38:18 your first language, or your first exposure to lisp? 14:38:39 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 14:38:40 first exposure to lisp 14:39:05 perhaps practical common lisp then (http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/) 14:39:17 oGMo, thank you 14:41:33 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 14:42:05 oGMo, what is the best lisp implementation? actually I am trying out IELM from emacs 14:42:18 IELM is for emacs lisp 14:42:25 It is nice for emacs lisp, but this channel is for common lisp hackery 14:42:48 SBCL is my favorite CL implementation. CCL is my second-favorite. If I was going to write a GUI program to sell to Windows people, I would use LispWorks. 14:42:53 That said, if you learn Common Lisp, you'll be a better emacs lisp programmer 14:42:59 alex_white [~Alexey@ppp85-141-147-95.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:43:09 -!- alex_white is now known as alexzin 14:43:28 What's the best car? What's the best ice cream? We all have our favorites, but there's no accounting for taste. 14:43:29 killown: i use SBCL and CCL; they're full native compilers 14:43:39 right 14:43:41 I work for Clozure, so I use CCL 14:43:44 :) 14:43:50 mo [~user@aa20111001946f573a92.userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:43:51 davlap [~davlap@pool-108-49-122-166.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:10 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:44:16 -!- mo is now known as Guest89595 14:44:26 and, car is the best car 14:44:36 Heh. 14:44:38 A ferrari is a very bad car. To drive in the bush. 14:44:44 "My other car is a cdr"? 14:44:46 I've been switching to first, second, ... of late 14:44:52 lol 14:45:08 A lot of defstruct or destructuring-bind, here. 14:45:11 Depending on context. 14:45:16 If it's an alist, I use car/cdr 14:45:31 does sbcl be a dynamic or a static compiler? 14:45:54 On the other hand, to go to the night club and hunt girls, a ferrari would be better than a jeep. 14:46:02 killown: meaningless question. 14:46:03 ow interpreter!! 14:46:09 killown: what do you mean? that doesn't really apply to CL 14:46:13 killown: what does that question mean? 14:46:15 Just take an implementation at random, and learn the language. 14:46:16 Common LIsp has both a COMPILE function, which compiles a function into the current heap, and a COMPILE-FILE function, which compiles a source file into a fasl file. 14:46:17 killown: all of the above 14:46:22 killown: common lisp is a dynamic compiled language. 14:46:54 ah ok 14:46:58 killown: sbcl will compile (to machine code) on the fly, which is moderately dynamic i suppose? 14:47:04 killown: the point is that there's a standard, so your programs will run on all the implementations, as long as they are conforming. 14:47:18 right 14:47:24 killown: so you can have a different implementation, for development, and for deployments. 14:47:27 what pjb said, and one reason to get multiple lisps running 14:48:34 thanks, I think I will setup emacs to use sbcl 14:48:52 make sure you get slime 14:49:20 So you could use clisp for small footprint and nice standalone debugger, you could deploy with ccl for MacOSX, you could deploy with sbcl to get fast executables, you could deploy with ecl to get good integration with C or C++ applications, you could deploy with abcl to get good integration with Java and JVM, you could deploy with a commerical implementation to get good paid-for support, etc. 14:49:30 killown: http://mohiji.nfshost.com/2011/01/modern-common-lisp-on-linux/ has some good info 14:49:46 ok 14:49:53 Xach, thanks 14:49:59 pjb, what lisp is good for? 14:50:10 Everything. 14:50:16 Read above. 14:50:32 ahinki, right 14:50:36 ops 14:50:42 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:45 tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.58.205] has joined #lisp 14:50:46 Or read http://www.franz.com/success/ 14:50:54 pjb, I mean its good for AI proposes? 14:51:08 more than python? 14:51:19 Yes. 14:52:15 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-106.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:52:19 killown: it certainly depends on what community you're in. if you plan to follow a book that uses python or to use python libraries, common lisp won't do you much good. 14:52:25 LiamH [~healy@wireless-206-196-161-46.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 14:52:35 "deploy with sbcl to get fast executables" so I can create executables easily just usig sbcl, like gcc does? 14:52:43 I like to use it to interactively develop programs that work on large datasets, in a domain where there isn't a lot of library support. 14:52:55 killown: you can, but that's not really how you do lisp development. you could deploy like that, though 14:52:58 killown: with all implementations, you can create executables. 14:53:11 amazing! 14:53:26 H4ns, I get the point 14:53:37 if you think that's neat ... ;) 14:54:19 oGMo, pjb lisp small executables or HUGE executables like python? 14:54:37 I mean size 14:54:37 killown: use clisp if you want small executables. Use sbcl if you want huge executables. 14:54:54 You see, you're not restricted to a single choice like with python. 14:55:01 with sbcl probably moderately sized, though sbcl has core compression features .. ecl would presumably produce the smallest 14:55:03 ok 14:55:13 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 14:56:04 if you're writing a bunch of small utilities i wouldn't make them into standalone executables; if you're writing a large application, it probably won't matter 14:56:36 You could write a bunch of small utilities into a single large core and busybox-style multiplex it :) 14:56:40 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:56:51 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-106.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 14:56:51 oGMo just for small utilities 14:56:51 exactly 14:57:15 oGMo: core compression also helps with additional data (: I had a ~130 MB heap (mostly double float vectors from statistics tables) compressed down to a 20MB core today. 14:57:32 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:57:54 pkhuong: nice 14:58:09 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:33 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.83.99] has joined #lisp 14:58:33 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.83.99] has quit [Changing host] 14:58:33 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:58:36 pjb I installed clisp, let me to start learn now 14:58:39 thanks for all 15:00:12 good luck 15:02:48 -!- Guest89595 [~user@aa20111001946f573a92.userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:03:18 I need to habituate with those all parentheses or use an editor to help me with this, depend on how much deep it goes, its getting more confuse 15:03:19 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:03:35 killown: emacs helps you with that 15:03:38 killown: yes, emacs helps a lot. 15:03:43 emacs + paredit + slime 15:03:47 momo-reina [~user@aa20111001946f573a92.userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:03:48 acelent [~user@sigma02.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 15:03:58 killown: emacs also allows you to use slime, which is a very nice environment for lisp programming. i'd say you should not try without. 15:04:23 ok let me try set up it 15:04:36 killown: follow the url that has been posted earlier. 15:04:37 peterhil: btrie! 15:05:17 ok 15:05:19 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:05:51 Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 15:06:19 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:51 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.159.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:11:29 -!- KDr2 [~kdr2@123.122.99.9] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:14:32 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has left #lisp 15:15:13 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:26 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 15:17:14 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA210C1.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:17:34 mo` [~user@aa20111001946f573a92.userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:18:26 -!- mo` [~user@aa20111001946f573a92.userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 15:18:36 -!- momo-reina [~user@aa20111001946f573a92.userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:18:50 dekuked` [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:30 mo` [~user@aa20111001946f573a92.userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:19:42 -!- mo` [~user@aa20111001946f573a92.userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:20:44 -!- dekuked [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:20:51 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 15:20:55 momo-reina [~user@aa20111001946f573a92.userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:21:35 LiamH1 [~healy@129.2.129.107] has joined #lisp 15:22:59 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 15:23:18 -!- LiamH [~healy@wireless-206-196-161-46.umd.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:23:27 -!- LiamH1 [~healy@129.2.129.107] has quit [Client Quit] 15:23:38 LiamH [~healy@129.2.129.107] has joined #lisp 15:24:13 -!- momo-reina [~user@aa20111001946f573a92.userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has left #lisp 15:25:51 LiamH1 [~healy@wireless-206-196-161-46.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 15:28:11 -!- LiamH [~healy@129.2.129.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:29:40 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.135.213] has joined #lisp 15:30:38 -!- blandest [~blandest@ip4-85-204-33-242.euroweb.ro] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:31:46 Mandus [~aasmundo@oro.simula.no] has joined #lisp 15:32:21 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-sknzdcdkntnxnrie] has joined #lisp 15:34:43 kmcorbett1 [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp 15:43:17 -!- LiamH1 [~healy@wireless-206-196-161-46.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:43:31 rurban [~rurban@2620:0:28a0:2004:e269:95ff:fe35:68d2] has joined #lisp 15:43:59 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 11.0/20120228210006]] 15:44:45 urandom__ [~user@p548A4BBE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:05 -!- rurban [~rurban@2620:0:28a0:2004:e269:95ff:fe35:68d2] has left #lisp 15:45:37 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has quit [Quit: Offline] 15:47:09 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:47:30 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-401048.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:51:15 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:52:05 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-lcqkcypdldepxoxf] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:54:28 -!- drwho [~drwho@216-122-174-206.gci.net] has quit [Quit: bbl] 15:57:14 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.182.162] has joined #lisp 15:58:58 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:59:15 -!- dekuked` [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:59:54 dekuked [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:17 -!- cbp` [~user@187.208.0.7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:05:33 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:16:35 tsuru [~charlie@adsl-74-179-198-112.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:55 pnq [~nick@AC81FA15.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 16:18:01 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-124-232.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:58 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 16:20:03 -!- brendyn [brendyn@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:65b4] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:24:02 v0yager [~v0yager@173-8-81-129-BusName-tn.chatta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:42 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-106.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:25:45 -!- nauar [~nauar@ip235200.bcn.altecom.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 16:27:26 mathrick [~mathrick@176.97.27.149] has joined #lisp 16:33:14 cbp` [~user@187.208.0.7] has joined #lisp 16:34:12 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:34:19 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-rtzvkxwgfroztyva] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:34:44 LiamH [~healy@132.250.247.2] has joined #lisp 16:37:37 frito [user@nat/ibm/x-zdiceftxzrrppqgr] has joined #lisp 16:39:31 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:40:27 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-gaodsyfucaoyczmd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:41:26 -!- The_third_man [~The_third@178.170.99.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:41:26 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@143.93.53.41] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:42:03 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 16:42:51 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 16:43:50 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 16:45:22 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 16:46:01 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:46:12 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 16:46:58 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-sknzdcdkntnxnrie] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:47:08 -!- kmcorbett1 [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has left #lisp 16:48:00 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:09 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:49:31 -!- splittist [d417faa6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.23.250.166] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:49:31 Hmm, the doc of bordeaux-threads:thread-alive-p says: "Returns true if THREAD is alive, that is, if DESTROY-THREAD has not been called on it." It makes me think that all threads which have not beed destroyed with DESTROYED are alive. (In practice, in SBCL, THREAD-ALIVE-P returns NIL if thread has terminated.) 16:50:09 with DESTROY-THREAD function 16:50:17 make-thread creates a thread with (lambda () (unwind-protect (funcall thunk) (destroy-thread))) 16:51:20 dtw: maybe the thread destroys itself when it returns ;) Seriously, SBCL doesn't really make a difference, and I'm not sure in what context it would be useful to do so. 16:51:48 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:52:17 Same as C calls main in a function that does: { exit(main(argc,argv,envv)); } 16:52:19 pjb, ah OK. I certainly expect THREAD-ALIVE-P returning NIL for terminated threads. 16:53:07 It's just the doc string of THREAD-ALIVE-P which confused me. 17:00:07 -!- Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-36-75.iburst.co.za] has quit [Quit: Eish] 17:00:16 Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-36-75.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:00:36 blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-45763eb0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:45 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.47.199] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:04:33 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0.2/20120215223356]] 17:05:26 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:32 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 17:07:17 spradnyesh [~pradyus@117.192.40.6] has joined #lisp 17:07:39 kmcorbett1 [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp 17:09:40 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 17:10:18 -!- ko1 [~k11@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:10:40 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:43 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-124-232.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:10:46 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-106.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 17:10:59 enn [~eli@codeanddata.com] has joined #lisp 17:12:28 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:12:48 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:46 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@117.192.40.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:14:05 Kron__ [~Kron@129-97-124-106.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 17:14:34 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.182.162] has quit [Quit: Offline] 17:17:15 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:36 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 17:17:39 ko1 [~k11@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 17:18:00 -!- ko1 [~k11@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 17:18:10 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-106.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:19:20 ko1 [~k11@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 17:19:29 -!- Kron__ [~Kron@129-97-124-106.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 17:19:37 wildnux [~wildnux@69.199.88.19] has joined #lisp 17:22:25 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-106.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 17:26:08 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-152.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:28:50 docAvid [~user@74-94-233-157-Michigan.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:46 Buglouse_ [~Buglouse@176.31.24.235] has joined #lisp 17:30:47 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-sbbpauemqgaliltj] has joined #lisp 17:30:53 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-155-72.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:31:19 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 17:31:29 -!- Buglouse_ [~Buglouse@176.31.24.235] has left #lisp 17:32:08 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-155-72.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:34:18 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:37:08 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81FA15.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:38:23 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has joined #lisp 17:38:48 *Xach* wonders what kreuter is up to 17:40:55 dto [~user@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:54 -!- v0yager [~v0yager@173-8-81-129-BusName-tn.chatta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:45:58 -!- Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:49:32 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:50:15 Ttm [~ripault@sao-paulo.lrde.epita.fr] has joined #lisp 17:55:25 pjb: hi 17:56:32 -!- davlap [~davlap@pool-108-49-122-166.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 17:57:11 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 17:57:42 -!- LiamH [~healy@132.250.247.2] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:00:58 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-106.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:01:57 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 18:02:38 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-152.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:05:11 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-106.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 18:07:52 osa1 [~sinan@31.140.117.85] has joined #lisp 18:09:10 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.129.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:12:51 frito` [user@nat/ibm/x-yimeuixglihvoqnr] has joined #lisp 18:14:54 -!- frito [user@nat/ibm/x-zdiceftxzrrppqgr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:15:29 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:18:02 *Xach* wishes someone would write about the "workbench" style of development that CL supports 18:19:47 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 18:20:07 Xach: what do you mean by workbench? 18:20:51 sykopomp: starting an environment, extending it to fit a task, computing & storing & reusing results within that same environment 18:21:12 unix is a bit workbenchy if you consider the programs the tools and files the data, but they are not very rich tools and not very rich data 18:21:15 ah 18:21:59 so rather than writing a lisp "script" that you run once, you extend your long-lived lisp workbench with a new tool (function) 18:22:27 you have to start with teaching people how to run multi-tty emacs 18:22:42 so you can have same emacs session up for a few weeks 18:22:53 I do? 18:23:01 I have the same emacs session up for weeks but I don't use multi-tty emacs. 18:23:10 Xach: I always tell people about how fun it was to have a running OpenGL window open and just coding things into it live. :) 18:23:12 So maybe it's nice but I don't think it's mandatory. 18:23:16 for workbench development.. /me is surprised how many ppl start/stop emacs each time they need to edit something 18:23:29 no one seems terribly impressed. I don't think people really get how cool it is :( 18:23:38 sykopomp: you need to find better people 18:23:45 -!- paul0 [~paul0@177.96.52.136] has quit [Quit: paul0] 18:23:57 Xach: what happens when you need to edit a file from ssh session, you just use via? 18:23:59 vi? 18:24:15 Xach: I do. :( 18:24:15 maxm-: tramp 18:24:36 meh, that stuff never worked right for me 18:24:45 maxm-: sometimes i use tramp, and sometimes i use remote long-lived emacses in screen. 18:24:54 Xach: At first I thought you were calling him a tramp for being willing to touch vi. 18:25:03 can't it be both? 18:25:19 with multi-tty emacs, you just ssh to your box, connect to it, and bam your whole session is right there.. Its like remote desktop for emacs 18:26:31 or go to diff room, take laptop, and pop a frame on a laptop, and continue working while watching tv 18:26:49 maxm-: I'll check it out. 18:27:01 *maxm-* does not know why its not hugely more popular, I had used it since original multi-tty branch 18:27:13 Is it part of "official" emacs? 18:27:16 yes 18:27:37 stassats [~stassats@pppoe.95-55-189-37.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 18:27:38 if you going to use multiple X desktops, you need to compile with athena, not gtk, as gtk does not survive disconnect/reconnect to X server 18:27:38 -!- stassats [~stassats@pppoe.95-55-189-37.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Changing host] 18:27:38 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:28:05 googling "preload-emacs" and "connect-emacs" will give you the original scripts that were my starting point 18:28:09 maxm-: so it is x based, right? 18:28:11 Anyway, I'd like to see some discussion of workbench style because I see so many people new to CL who dive in with "script" style. 18:28:45 like they are writing python, perl, php, or ruby files and libraries 18:28:57 H4ns: both, if you use it on tty, it opens a tty frame, if there is IDSPLAY it opens an X one, lemme make screenshot 18:29:25 maxm-: if it is tty based, i don't quite see the advantage compared to a remotely attached tmux session. 18:29:42 maxm-: and x based is generally to laggy for me to want to use it. 18:30:07 H4ns: multi-tty emacs actually supports opening both (remote) X and tty frames. 18:30:30 I use daemon mode a lot. how is multi-tty different from daemon mode? 18:32:03 here http://i.imgur.com/NC4zm.png 18:32:23 of course xterm can be an ssh session from diff box, or you can use ssh forwarding and pop X frame into enother box 18:32:48 RazWelles [~Raz@c-76-108-49-181.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:58 Does RDNZL work with .Net 4.0 libraries? 18:32:58 Fade: It's a bit fuzzy for me, but I remember that I stopped using the multitty branch when most of was folded in the mainline for --daemon mode. 18:33:10 the actual advantage is that I can use it as "vim" 18:33:13 *nod* 18:33:31 ie tty session pops in 0.001 second, but its my full emacs (that by itself takes 30 seconds to start up) 18:33:45 sure, that's why I started using daemon mode. 18:33:54 *maxm-* has hacks that limit buffer list per frame, so basically these are like mini-independent editors 18:34:01 i don't mind switching to emacs upon calling emacsclient 18:34:11 ^^^ 18:34:16 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.135.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:34:41 because i like a really full emacs, not a text-only stump 18:35:34 i think daemon mode and multi-tty is the same thing, multi-tty is old name for it 18:35:55 daemon starts without a frame 18:36:07 kmcorbett_ [~kmcorbett@173-166-107-217-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:25 except to take full advantage (which to me is basically attaching to my workspace from a different laptop), you need to compile emacs with athena, which does not barf at having 2 X connections at the same time 18:36:31 -!- frito` [user@nat/ibm/x-yimeuixglihvoqnr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:36:33 i've found it causes problems with some .emacs initialization because some things don't get initialized until you have a frame (e.g., faces) 18:36:55 *maxm-* does not use daemon mode, I use old preload-emacs script that just starts it in a detached screen session 18:37:03 but its basically the same thing 18:37:56 there is also --iconic if you're an X heretic 18:38:15 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:38:50 you want to leave 1 frame running on detached screen (or use daemon mode), in case your X connection dies.. Did I mention additional advatage of multi-tty, you can restart your X, and it survives it just fine, you just pop new frame 18:40:10 my login shell is set up so that it starts an emacs daemon process if one doesn't already exist. 18:40:16 vantage|home [~vantage@109.131.167.30] has joined #lisp 18:40:30 it's a nice way to go. 18:41:56 i'd like to start an sbcl and have my "shell" be some remote hooks to it, but i haven't found a lisp shell replacement i cared for 18:43:06 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 18:44:09 you can talk to sbcl using swank 18:45:26 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.89.251] has joined #lisp 18:47:27 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-68-41-30-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:29 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:52:14 -!- dto [~user@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:54:38 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:57:54 vantage|2 [~vantage@109.131.120.228] has joined #lisp 18:58:09 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@109.131.167.30] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:59:49 I think the concept or practice of system construction is tied into the workbench style 19:03:40 funny enough the closest to lisp style, are the php monkeys, thats why its so popular.. Change $bar to $baz, hit f5 -> instant feedback, continue hacking 19:04:01 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:04:33 all the enterprise/shmenterprise maven and 30 minute builds of everethyng into huge .ear files of enterprise java, killed all the productivity of rapid development style that .jsp 1.0 had 19:04:36 all the math and engineering tools that I know of work that way, but even better. Worksheets are even nicer than a REPL. 19:04:52 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 19:04:53 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Client Quit] 19:04:59 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 19:05:20 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 19:05:30 maxm-: jrebel eases the pain 19:05:55 limetree: thankfully I'm out of that environment for 1+ year already 19:06:31 hence my increasingly irritating activities on this channel :-) 19:06:58 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:07 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:07:15 ok. but anyway, even if you're deploying huge ear files, with jrebel you can see you changes in a few seconds. 19:07:56 limetree: thanks, added bookmark for next time I get a java contract 19:08:55 gkeith_glaptop_ [gkeith@nat/google/x-yeyaiphowxuyedwh] has joined #lisp 19:08:59 RaceCondition [~erik@dsl48-249.uninet.ee] has joined #lisp 19:09:36 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 19:09:42 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-30-130.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:09:56 senj [~senj@S01060026f323bcdf.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:56 -!- senj [~senj@S01060026f323bcdf.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:10:09 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:11:16 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-133-159.w90-26.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:12:31 LiamH [~healy@132.250.247.2] has joined #lisp 19:12:57 -!- kmcorbett_ [kmcorbett@clozure-C1AA9842.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 19:13:40 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 19:13:56 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-152.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:14:59 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-152.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:15:03 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-155-72.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:16:10 -!- kmcorbett_ [~kmcorbett@173-166-107-217-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:16:20 daem0n [~yaargh@unaffiliated/mryaargh] has joined #lisp 19:16:44 -!- daem0n [~yaargh@unaffiliated/mryaargh] has quit [Client Quit] 19:17:19 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:17:45 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:18:21 Ralith [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:56 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-155-72.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:21:05 why does this return: (sort (list 8) #'string< :key #'pathname-name) 19:21:06 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:21:13 but this does not: (sort (list 8 9) #'string< :key #'pathname-name) 19:21:50 because the former has only one element 19:23:58 Cosman246 [~user@D-173-250-189-163.dhcp4.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 19:24:00 yes, it returns for nil as well. 17.2.1 says: "The function designated by the :key argument is never called on O itself" 19:25:46 if you look closer you will find that SORT isn't governed by 17.2.1 19:27:47 Is that table normative? 19:27:55 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-sbbpauemqgaliltj] has left #lisp 19:27:58 -!- gkeith_glaptop_ [gkeith@nat/google/x-yeyaiphowxuyedwh] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:28:19 -!- bjonnh [~bjonnh@147.210.71.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:28:22 Yes. 19:28:37 it is, and SORT doesn't even fit into the description a two argument test 19:29:09 PREDICATE isn't a two argument test? 19:30:38 no 19:31:26 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-106.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:33:50 -!- benny [~benny@i577A1DDD.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:34:21 -!- vantage|2 is now known as vantage|home 19:34:33 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-106.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 19:40:39 benny` [~benny@i577A1C01.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:41:25 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-228-70.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:28 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-120-248.as43234.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:47:49 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5081E2D8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:32 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-395890.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 19:51:02 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 19:55:15 -!- benny` is now known as benny 19:59:03 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:59:24 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.235.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:59:30 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-106.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 20:00:01 RomyRomy [~stickycak@pool-108-27-89-118.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:25 -!- Cosman246 [~user@D-173-250-189-163.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:02:08 -!- otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:04:37 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 20:05:14 kilon_alios [~kilon@athedsl-188701.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 20:06:28 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Client Quit] 20:06:40 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-395890.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:07:16 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 20:07:39 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:08:35 -!- naryl [~weechat@188.134.95.93] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:08:44 -!- dekuked [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:08:57 dekuked [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:33 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@pool-108-27-89-118.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:09:55 -!- LiamH [~healy@132.250.247.2] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:11:24 -!- dekuked [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:11:24 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@188.250.87.167] has joined #lisp 20:12:08 -!- cbp` [~user@187.208.0.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:12:11 RomyRomy [~stickycak@pool-108-27-89-118.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:16 naryl [~weechat@188.134.95.93] has joined #lisp 20:14:12 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:20 The_third_man [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:27 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl21-72-233.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 20:26:01 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 20:28:19 kmcorbett2 [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp 20:30:13 -!- kmcorbett1 [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:30:56 otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has joined #lisp 20:32:31 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@pool-108-27-89-118.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 20:37:01 There was this crowdfunding project for SBCL. I wonder what is the current status, in terms of implemented features. Is there a blog feed somewhere? 20:37:35 bohl [~balor@p4FF7E986.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:37:59 dtw: http://random-state.net/log/sbcl-threading-news.html 20:38:24 http://random-state.net/log/3529868963.html also 20:39:43 RomyRomy_ [~stickycak@pool-108-27-89-118.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:50 Thanks. I remember seeing those pages. Haven't seen any updates since. 20:40:02 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl6-228-38.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 20:40:11 nikodemus has not been here for a while. 20:40:17 (I'm just wondering. Not that I'm looking for a specific feature.) 20:40:53 He is alive but not talkative, lispwise 20:41:42 Nikodemus's last commit to SBCL repo was at 2012-01-23 14:27:17 +0200. 20:42:40 -!- RomyRomy_ is now known as RomyRomy 20:43:50 rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:44:14 hes probably hacking, guys under lots of pressure.. From what I remember he did "another $300 and I'll get rid of big compiler lock", so now he has to deliver on that.. /me been on the other side (over-promised and then coding like maniac) many times 20:44:27 unless he already did it 20:46:31 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.89.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:48:28 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has quit [Quit: Offline] 20:50:11 -!- RomyRomy is now known as RomyStudying 20:51:18 -!- naryl [~weechat@188.134.95.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:52:43 naryl [~weechat@188.134.95.93] has joined #lisp 20:55:05 (defparameter wochentage #("Mo" "Di" "Mi" "Do" "Fr" "Sa" "So")) 20:55:32 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:55:44 Xach: lisptips, german version? 20:55:48 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 20:56:16 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-68-41-30-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:56:20 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.182.162] has joined #lisp 20:57:38 -!- osa1 [~sinan@31.140.117.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:58:23 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129182123.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 20:58:41 Will SBCL threads ever be as lightweight as Haskell threads? 20:58:51 Err, GHC's threads? 20:58:58 Sgeo_: I don't think anyone is working toward that goal right now. 20:59:16 Does GHC have a green threads implementation? 20:59:49 Fade, something .. like that, I think, but it can still take advantage of multiple cores by shuffling things on a few OS-level threads. 21:00:14 Fade: yes 21:00:36 Sgeo_: you're focusing too much on the word "thread" 21:00:36 sbcl uses system threads. 21:01:07 Fade: GHC 'threads' are M:N microthreads. 21:01:27 scheduled, iiuc, across as many cores as there are in the host machine. 21:01:45 ah 21:02:04 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has joined #lisp 21:02:26 -!- Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:02:27 like Erlang, Go, and Rust. 21:03:09 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@109.131.120.228] has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg] 21:03:21 i guess in situations where the system load is very high, that isolated scheduler in the ghc runtime will cause some problems. 21:03:32 you'd want the runtime to coordinate with the system scheduler. 21:03:52 ghc, erlang... whatever 21:04:42 I don't know about that. 21:05:21 I do think it would be quite nice to be able to spawn hundreds of thousands of 'threads'. 21:05:38 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl6-228-38.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 21:06:35 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-155-72.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:08:25 Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 21:08:51 RomyRomy [~stickycak@pool-108-27-89-118.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:48 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-68-41-30-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:10 -!- RomyStudying [~stickycak@pool-108-27-89-118.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:14:13 -!- kmcorbett2 [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:14:36 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@pool-108-27-89-118.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: RomyRomy] 21:15:09 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:15:09 it'd be nice if it worked, but you could spawn mu threads and it wouldn't matter if most of them never got to execute. 21:15:21 ZabaQ [~Zaba@ip-89-176-173-114.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 21:15:25 RomyRomy [~stickycak@pool-108-27-89-118.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:08 *Xach* wants tail-recursive threads in his continuations! 21:16:24 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-155-72.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:17:27 -!- Phoodus [~foo@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:17:44 Phoodus [~foo@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:29 *H4ns* wants coroutines 21:19:41 and a pony 21:20:38 -!- RomyRomy is now known as RomyAFK 21:20:41 -!- RomyAFK [~stickycak@pool-108-27-89-118.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: RomyAFK] 21:21:11 -!- galiley [~user@46-47-94-53.sf.ddns.bulsat.com] has left #lisp 21:21:32 H4ns: that would have been nice, i had to script/code/macro around it 21:21:35 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@dsl48-249.uninet.ee] has quit [Quit: RaceCondition] 21:22:02 (with-pony ...) 21:22:03 madnificent: (defmacro omgponies (...) ...)? 21:22:07 ^ 21:22:18 Amadiro_ [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 21:22:49 sykopomp: it's used in conserv! but i could rename it to omgponies if you don't mind (please don't say yes) 21:23:06 yes 21:23:09 or wait! don't say anything that implies you don't mind 21:23:17 I don't mind. 21:23:18 ;_; 21:23:25 ^_^ 21:23:33 i *will* commit that and ask you to pull it! 21:23:46 Clearly, madnificent's goal was to trick sykopomp into saying that. 21:23:59 madnificent: I eagerly await your pull request. 21:24:49 that function better shit rainbows with a name so awesome. 21:24:51 damn this is going to hurt 21:26:28 kmcorbett1 [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp 21:26:29 Fade: no, sadly it's an cheap way of giving a function with multiple entry points 21:26:44 -!- TheMue [~TheMue@p5DDF5122.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: TheMue] 21:27:56 multiple entry points? 21:30:11 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-222-130.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:30:15 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-155-72.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:30:52 francogrex [~user@109.130.131.50] has joined #lisp 21:31:24 p_l: hans asked coroutines, if i'm not mistaken that has a similar use. though my use is boring and less advanced. it'll be in an open source project near you in the comping months 21:31:29 s/comping/coming/ 21:32:12 But can I have an entry point nestled inside a function that the function with multiple entrance points calls? 21:32:21 Or must I lay them all out on the table, so to speak. 21:33:47 daniel [~daniel@p508291BE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:48 Sgeo_: i'm going the lazy way. i have a function which has multiple entry points. each of those entry points must be a top level form with respect to the forms which the function executes (no nesting). it then creates a new function for each of the entry points and creates calls between them. because this had to be fast, the calls are actually removed and the functions are inlined if defined later. 21:34:50 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-155-72.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:34:53 whenever I hear multiple entry points, I think VLM 21:35:26 madnificent, sounds a bit uncomfortably like C#'s and Python's yield. 21:35:36 if you trying to write a generator or poor's man continuation type stuff 21:36:05 take a look at my cl-cilk, it has a code transformer that flattens any lambda into one huge tagbody, that could be exited and re-entered 21:36:20 -!- daniel___ [~daniel@p508294ED.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:36:22 does not handle labels/flet/unwind-protect yet tho 21:36:36 *Sgeo_* ponders how he'd write what he wants. 21:36:57 i only needed it for speed. it's custom and does some crap i need. no need to change, not worth reading either :) 21:37:03 my stuff above is for "get out from here, then resume in a different thread" 21:37:56 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@host81.201-253-131.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 21:38:23 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m90-141-45-95.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 21:38:47 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 21:51:04 Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.235] has joined #lisp 21:51:11 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:51:29 -!- dtw [dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: (bt:interrupt-thread dtw:*awake* #'dtw:sleep)] 21:51:31 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-155-72.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:51:45 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.235] has quit [Client Quit] 21:51:45 ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-107-035-184.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:12 clisp latest version is from 2010! They stopped development it seems 21:56:51 ? 21:56:54 dekuked [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:54 are you sure ? 21:57:12 on SF at least 21:57:43 it doesn't do so well on the ansi-tests also 21:57:52 ah 21:58:15 it's a pity if it becomes abandonware like gcl 21:58:56 francogrex: did you run ansi-tests yourself? 21:59:18 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.58.205] has quit [Quit: tensorpudding] 21:59:47 yes, I have a version of ansi-tests I don't know if it's the latest but I use the same to compare implementations 21:59:58 RomyRomy [~stickycak@pool-108-27-89-118.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:08 no, what I thought was they stopped development because they're 100% compliant so need for any new version anymore but it's not the case 22:01:51 francogrex: what exactly is the problem that you have with clisp? 22:02:03 did you use the -ansi flag? 22:02:06 francogrex: are you getting paid for validating ansi compliance? just curious. 22:02:50 H4ns: read above why I ran the tests ^ 22:03:36 francogrex: in my experience, clisp is a very mature implementation that has been useful to me on a number of occasions. 22:04:08 to me as well that's why I find it a pity that developement stopped in 2010 22:04:31 francogrex: what exactly is it that ansi compliance buys you? 22:04:57 tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.58.205] has joined #lisp 22:04:57 H4ns: it's just an indicator, useful 22:05:05 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 22:05:37 aha (?) 22:05:57 francogrex: has ansi compliance ever helped you write some program that you wanted to rite? 22:06:00 write? 22:06:33 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@ip-89-176-173-114.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:06:57 Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.235] has joined #lisp 22:07:00 X-Scale` [email@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has joined #lisp 22:07:05 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 22:07:06 not yet. It may someday. Compliance is very important; to get what is expected according to standards 22:07:15 sounds more like a rite, ironically. :) 22:07:45 francogrex: well, then there you go. fix the remaining failing ansi tests in clisp. 22:08:00 francogrex: if it matters to you, you'll be the best person to fix it. 22:08:16 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.235] has quit [Client Quit] 22:09:07 Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.235] has joined #lisp 22:10:22 DataLinkDroid [~David@110.140.240.65] has joined #lisp 22:12:06 H4ns: I don't like making constructive comments. I'm only good to bitch and complain about stuff that's broken, not to fix them 22:12:27 -!- bohl [~balor@p4FF7E986.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:12:37 francogrex: that clarifies, thank you. 22:15:24 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.182.162] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 22:16:22 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.131.50] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:17:02 is the trace buffer in slime not working for anyone else? everything ends up in the repl. 22:18:58 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-152.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:21:18 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.106.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:31:48 it's not working, don't use it 22:32:33 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.235] has left #lisp 22:35:32 RomyRomy_ [~stickycak@pool-108-27-89-118.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:23 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@pool-108-27-89-118.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:39:24 -!- RomyRomy_ is now known as RomyRomy 22:39:33 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-68-41-30-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 22:43:14 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:46:41 RomyRomy_ [~stickycak@pool-108-27-89-118.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:53 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@pool-108-27-89-118.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:49:39 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:50:42 -!- dekuked [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:51:09 -!- RomyRomy_ [~stickycak@pool-108-27-89-118.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:51:44 RomyRomy [~stickycak@pool-108-27-89-118.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:52 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5081E2D8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:54:16 RomyRomy_ [~stickycak@pool-108-27-89-118.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:29 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 22:57:21 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@pool-108-27-89-118.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:57:22 -!- RomyRomy_ is now known as RomyRomy 22:58:24 Denis7 [~Haro@pool-96-245-203-45.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:04 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@69.199.88.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:01:37 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@pool-108-27-89-118.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: RomyRomy] 23:04:51 hello, im having a bit of trouble with the remove-if function, i have a pre=existing function that i want to use that compares list elements in a certain way 23:05:13 i want all the elements in a list compared against one other element, and remove if my other function returns T 23:05:19 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:05:35 i have only found examples of using an anonymous function with remove-if if you have arguments 23:05:46 and was wondering if i can do this with my pre-existing function 23:05:56 you can 23:06:23 what appears to be the problem with doing so? 23:07:15 i'm a bit unclear as to what the syntax would look like, since all the examples i have found that have an argument besides the elements in the list use anonymous functions 23:07:23 im unclear as to how i specify the specific element 23:07:32 that i want to compare to all the other elements 23:07:34 for the predicate 23:08:08 i'm unclear on what you're describing either 23:08:17 Denis7: (remove-if #'predicate list). 23:08:39 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129182123.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:09:28 okay, so with that syntax in mind, lets say i have an element called el which i need to sent to my function along with each element in the list 23:09:39 so if my predicate function is called less-than 23:09:51 Denis7: same as any other anonymous functions. 23:09:52 Denis7: oh, I see 23:09:53 -s 23:09:58 you want curry 23:09:59 or, in long form 23:10:07 (remove-if #'less-than list) 23:10:14 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-153-19.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:16 (remove-if (lambda (x) (binary-test reference-value x)) list) 23:10:16 i dont understand if i can plug el in somewhere 23:10:52 Denis7: I thought you'd seen plenty of examples with anonymous functions. 23:10:53 or, if you have alexandria loaded 23:10:53 (remove-if (curry #'binary-test reference-value) list) 23:11:08 Ralith: remove/:test. 23:11:10 i have seen plenty of examples with anonymous functions 23:11:13 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:11:18 i was trying not to use one 23:11:20 pkhuong: ? 23:11:27 pkhuong: oh yes. 23:11:28 and was seeing if i could rely only on my predicate function 23:11:29 dto: "21:34:22 do people ever bind () to non-shifted keys in emacs" 23:11:29 better idea. 23:11:32 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-142-184.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:11:33 ^-- I do. I use a TypeMatrix 2030 and remapped lots of keys. Among other things my physical right shift is () + left arrow, and I can press any combination of Ctrl/Alt/Shift entirely with my thumbs. Also I use stumpwm. And Ctrl+() = "" (double quotes). 23:11:45 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-142-184.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:11:51 Ralith: (remove 1 '(0 1 2 3) :test #'<). 23:12:05 maxm-: "01:27:16 Ralith/Hexstream: it taken out of context, it was suggested that to really learn lisp, one needs to read the hyperspec from cover to cover, like a book.. My comment was referring to that.. I do use hyperspec to look up specific stuff" 23:12:05 pkhuong: yes, I worked it out once I checked the arglist in slime. 23:12:10 ^-- You don't necessarily need to read it cover-to-cover, but just looking up specific stuff as needed is insufficient, IMHO. There's lots of important information in "prose chapters" (that you won't typically stumble on by looking up an operator)... 23:12:14 The problem with only looking up the documentation of things you know about is that you'll be completely clueless about what you don't know you don't know. 23:13:43 #lisp will tell me 23:14:04 Right, that solves part of the problem, but not all. 23:14:08 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-155-72.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:14:18 SBCL will shout at me 23:14:20 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-155-72.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:14:33 See preceding answer. ;P 23:15:17 stassats: let's add a style warning for: "You're using FN or FUN as a variable name; stop reading On Lisp." ;) 23:15:38 (incf pkhuong) 23:16:01 Maybe we could have STYLISTIC-WARNINGs. 23:16:04 Hexstream: heh I was not even aware hyperspec has any "prose chapters" 23:16:09 you take you don't like fun! 23:16:10 I did read clct2 cover to cover 23:16:13 s/you/i/ 23:16:17 cltl2 rather 23:20:56 *Xach* feels the excitement! 23:21:48 that worked perfectly Ralith, thank you for your help 23:22:21 Denis7: as pkhuong was hinting, a better approach would be (remove reference-value list :test #'binary-test) 23:24:03 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.154.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:24:28 Is there an analog of #'disassemble for objects? 23:25:06 Ralith: what would that to? 23:25:17 #'inspect? 23:25:22 MrBusiness [~MrBusines@184.99.7.19] has joined #lisp 23:25:29 Or maybe #'describe. 23:25:29 i.e. some way to inspect the implementation-specific interal encoding of an object 23:25:40 Not portably, at least. 23:25:54 Ralith: frankly, unless the test defines equivalence classes, I wouldn't use it. 23:26:05 sb-sys:sap-ref-lispobj! 23:26:17 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.176] has joined #lisp 23:26:19 stassats: that might actually be viable. 23:26:33 There's also the problem of determining what's part of the object and what isn't... a bit like for equality/copying. 23:26:43 pkhuong: mainly I'm interested in serving my idle curiosity about the in-memory shapes of various things, which is indeed a very unportable thing. 23:27:03 and not terribly useful for practical purposes. 23:27:15 rather, sb-kernel:get-lisp-obj-address, and then the usual sap-refs on it 23:27:30 nothing analogous for CCL? 23:27:40 -!- kmcorbett1 [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:28:57 ccl:uvref 23:29:05 oo 23:29:28 senj [~senj@S01060026f323bcdf.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:35 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.187.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 23:29:36 -!- senj [~senj@S01060026f323bcdf.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:29:41 uh, is it documented anywhere? 23:29:50 In the source! 23:30:02 (at least) 23:30:07 that was my first reaction, but M-. took me to something very uninformative. 23:30:13 (%eval-redef uvref (x y)) 23:30:25 clearly not the actual definition 23:30:34 Ralith: grep in the arch-specific files. 23:30:40 kk 23:32:04 doesn't seem to be defined in level-0/X86 or compiler/X86 23:32:09 Ralith: For ccl, look in ccl:compiler;X86;X8664;x8664-arch.lisp 23:32:20 oh, silly me, not using grep -R 23:32:33 there it is, thanks. 23:32:33 rgrep, you mean 23:32:51 that works too 23:32:55 M-x rgrep 23:33:01 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483A9EA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:33:09 -!- rotty_ [~rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:34:44 -!- ebw` [~user@krlh-4d0205f3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:34:46 rme: does it go by some other name there? 23:34:47 Ralith: also see section 17.2.4 of the manual. search for "uvector". 23:35:22 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:35:46 uvref accesses elements of a uvector. (sort of like svref does for simple vectors.) the manual explains what uvectors are. 23:36:17 I mean, I'm not seeing any occurrence of "uvref" in x86??-argh.lisp 23:36:34 arch* 23:36:35 >_> 23:36:43 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.159.184] has joined #lisp 23:40:28 it's a compiler built-in. the actual implementation is in assembly language in the lisp kernel. 23:41:36 ah, I see. 23:48:03 -!- hefner [~hefner@c-69-255-57-56.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: you are men. you work, men.] 23:49:45 all that, and it turns out slime's inspector has an "underlying uvector" link. 23:50:48 oh, you just wanted to look at it? 23:55:47 The_thir- [~The_third@178.170.99.117] has joined #lisp 23:55:59 -!- The_third_man [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [] 23:57:55 stassats: yes; I said as much just before you suggested get-lisp-obj-address.