00:00:06 I think the overall problem is I've made several complex tangentially related points to a very casual crowd. Which is fine, if I were a lisp god I wouldn't waste time talking to me either. 00:00:06 and changing fpprec to neither 8 or 16 does change that too..... 00:00:14 karswell__ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:00:46 man I'm unable to reproduce my speed problem with a test case 00:01:01 and what's worts all tests pass with cmucl, which runs whithout unicode support cause it could not find unidata.bin.... 00:01:11 real case, have a complicated chart, jiggle it around with (trace qt::qmethod-name) 00:01:16 without me setting anything.... 00:01:24 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:01:25 its called repeatedly for each overloaded Qt method 00:01:25 lol 00:01:35 with 100% of cpu usage, spent there without caching 00:01:58 but if I create object myself, and call method myself, commonqt caches it itself, trace showing only 1 call 00:03:01 Sgeo: not getting your question 00:03:12 vigil_ante: you make no sense 00:03:23 -!- rswarbrick [~rswarbric@cl-1290.lon-02.gb.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:03:49 madnificent: graham underestimated some stuff though. Like he blanketly advised never using macros when a function "would do". As Hoyte (Let Over Lambda) points out, that misses the point entirely. When you're looking at special operators and functions and macros and local functions and inlined and compiler functions and whatever else you have at your disposal, you need to actually understand how they work. So the answer is ne 00:03:50 ver use a macro when you can use a function, the answer is feel free to use a macro instead of a function if you are comfortable using an unclean lexical environment. And if you aren't comfortable with it, why not use macros to make it safer and easier to do? 00:03:51 ah found it, its in (call-next-qmethod) 00:04:04 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:21 madnificnet: Is it a bad sign that is actually reassuring to me? If my ideas were comprehensible I wouldn't be able to make much money on them I suppose. 00:06:32 vigil_ante: and that, again, has nothing to do with the expressivity of lisp. you're probably making a point about something and i'll grant you it. regardless of what you're talking about. it's not about what i joinen in with. i'll join the discussion once another real topic is started :) have a nice day 00:07:19 -!- SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:07:26 My messages lack referential transparency and that's the way I like 'em. 00:07:53 later 00:08:42 http://pastie.org/3508028 00:09:03 -!- vigil_ante [~vigil@adsl-074-229-197-048.sip.mco.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:09:33 how is read reading floats from files ? 00:11:23 -!- karswell__ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:11:53 karswell__ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:13:01 looks like single vs double floats 00:13:18 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@cpe-76-183-81-208.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:15:52 yes but the reader has no effect as i said..... 00:16:04 setting neither to single nor to double i mean..... 00:16:34 unless it's set somewhere from maxima ...... 00:17:27 and it makes all the tests fail which wouldn't fail otherwise..... 00:19:38 -!- Fare1 [~Adium@RLE-13-012.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:19:48 borkman [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:20:00 is that my image which i dumped that way which messes with it maybe ? ..... 00:20:08 hmmm i'll have to dump again, to see...... 00:21:26 yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:23:18 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:23:41 setting read-default-float-format in maxima does not alter it.... 00:23:54 ok , and setting fpprec in maxima does not alter it too 00:24:48 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:24:54 why are you fiddling with maxima test suit anyway? 00:25:42 meh something changed, now I only getting around 10% difference in the test case 00:26:11 -!- karswell__ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:26:42 karswell__ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:27:00 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:27:20 in fact i know what changed 00:27:33 anybody have 32-bit sbcl? 00:27:47 cffi:foreign-slot-value of a 'string slot used to call cffi:string-from-foreign 00:27:52 which did full copy 00:28:13 stassats: what do you mean ? 00:28:21 stassats: is it a joke ? 00:28:38 what joke? 00:28:47 testsuite joke! 00:28:57 no 00:28:58 urandom__ [~user@p548A3D1B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:01 is it funny? 00:29:04 no it still does it, guess I need example with longer method names 00:29:35 alright, i guess i can download x86 sbcl myself 00:29:56 on the other thought, i don't want to deal with sourceforge 00:30:31 i'll build one then 00:32:34 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-58-165-252-158.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 00:34:01 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:34:17 -!- Guest64280 [~josesanto@bl19-210-103.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 00:34:38 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-210-103.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 00:34:54 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-210-103.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 00:35:10 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-210-103.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 00:35:17 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-210-103.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 00:35:31 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.210.103] has joined #lisp 00:36:34 sorry about the flood 00:36:55 what flood? 00:37:23 connect/disconnect 00:37:33 oh, i have those disabled 00:37:37 ;) 00:41:04 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:35 -!- jlongster [~user@2620:101:8003:200:129a:ddff:feb0:614d] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:44:56 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:30 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_prog1c.htm  isn't there a bug in the description? 00:48:49 Shouldn't prog2 yield the value of the *second* form? 00:48:56 (says first in the CLHS) 00:49:17 yes, there is 00:49:33 Where can I file that bug? Do we have LW people here? 00:49:39 antoszka: the bug is in the spec. 00:49:44 It's known, nobody cares. 00:49:45 and i'm lobbying for the new CL standard just to fix this bug 00:49:55 antoszka: it's standardized, you can't exactly go back 20 years and shout "FIXIT DAMMIT" 00:49:55 pkhuong: lol, ok. 00:50:17 otherwise, CL is perfect 00:51:08 we need a new ansi standard for prog2 though 00:51:17 What do most implementations do? 00:51:22 that's what i just said 00:51:26 Follow the spec or the sensible thing? 00:51:28 Sgeo: flip a coin 00:51:30 most implementations are non-compliant, unfortunately. 00:51:31 Sgeo: The sensible thing. 00:51:39 it's a shame, really 00:52:08 but i don't know who ever uses prog2 00:52:14 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-43-130.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:53:12 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 00:53:13 prog1 makes me think of the <* operator in Haskell. Which is good, because I think I like that operator 00:54:54 prog2 can be used as a non-unwiding counterpart of unwind-protect 00:56:15 in something one-legged 00:57:41 Fare [~Adium@18.111.69.28] has joined #lisp 00:59:42 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Quit: gone] 01:00:21 -!- Fare [~Adium@18.111.69.28] has quit [Client Quit] 01:00:24 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-213-013.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 01:02:34 ok, my qt changes are now published on https://github.com/7max/commonqt 01:03:39 I was unable to write a good test case for teh speed changes, all I know that in real-life scenario (busy QGraphicsView with lots of objects and lots of virtual methods overrides), it makes a difference between 100% cpu usage when jiggling mouse around like a maniac, and 25% cpu usage 01:04:20 artificial test case gets 6.2 vs 7 seconds difference, but it all depends on length of method names, and length of their parameter type names 01:04:21 -!- kai_ [~kai@e179019071.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:06:23 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 01:07:04 -!- SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:08:04 maxm-: printing qobjects, are you sure that the layout of those objects won't change in the future? 01:08:40 well it QPoint stayed as 2 ints for 10 years, what is a chance they will change it to something else? 01:09:04 I think Qt itself assumes the layout of basic classes stays the same internally.. 01:09:26 I mean core structures like QPoint, QRect, QSize, QTransform and such 01:09:48 kai_ [~kai@f052102020.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 01:10:07 ok, found the problem, i dumped my-image with *read-default-float-format* set to single-float and didn't set it to double-float in maxima-init.lisp..... 01:10:16 and its increadibly helpful with debugging to see # vs # 01:10:21 now it works as expected.... 01:10:26 no need to redump.... 01:11:29 otherwise sblc's own setting in that regard are not taken into account it seems in maxima 01:11:34 LTR> (new QPolygon '(1 2 3 4 5 6)) 01:11:34 # 01:11:39 isnt this cool? 01:12:01 i did some profiling awhile back, and a lot of time were spent in qt calling lisp to check whether the method is overridden 01:12:02 i mean tho i provide a sbclrc which contains a double-float reader ... 01:12:15 so i thought about moving override information to c++ side 01:12:19 stassats: ah, thats my fix 01:12:37 stassats: if you repeat same profiling, it will disappear, if it was in tranlate-from-foregn 01:12:41 now all tests pass there too.... 01:12:52 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:12:59 so that it will call lisp only when the method is actually overriden 01:13:10 what does 1 page fault mean ? 01:13:17 maxm-: that was a couple of years ago, so i don't remember 01:13:52 stassats: no all cpu usage was in qmethod-name, and qtype-name, which accept int and return string, but string is obtained as cffi 'string slot, which does string-from-octects 01:13:53 homie: the requested data wasn't in memory, so it had to be fetched from disk 01:14:04 adding a hash eliminated that slowdown completely for me 01:14:44 ah ok 01:14:52 thank you 01:14:59 rswarbrick [~rswarbric@cl-1290.lon-02.gb.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:26 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:16:24 -!- Ralith [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:16:39 my biggest performance problem is sending large models to views 01:16:40 stassats: actually I now realize, I left marshalling of qpolygon from one-dimensional list or vector, as each element being a complex representing x,y 01:16:52 but 2D array is treated as points 01:17:01 LTR> (new QPolygon #2A((1 2) (3 4) (5 6))) 01:17:02 # 01:17:07 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:17:09 i tried to use fetchmore and stuff, but couldn't figure it out and it was always requesting data from lisp 01:18:06 stassats: hmm what kind of views, qgraphicsview? 01:18:19 treeview 01:18:19 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:18:46 ah have not tried that one 01:19:33 it doesn't matter, really, it just means allocating a lot of strings and other objects 01:19:45 qgraphicsview is extremely fast for me, I populate a week of 144 tick bars in around 3 seconds, each bar being a qpolygonalitem, in fact its faster then win32 charting program I'm using 01:19:50 and that is with (debug 3) 01:20:14 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:15 3 seconds is slowwww 01:20:43 (anything slower than 100ms is slow in my book) 01:20:46 hmm thats around 10k bars 01:21:35 ok then, erm, is there a way for cmucl to include the unidata.bin file when dumping maxima images ? 01:21:56 it seems to not find it after dump 01:22:14 rtoym should know 01:25:27 killerboy [~mateusz@users79.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 01:27:58 -!- karswell__ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:28:31 karswell__ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 01:33:08 maxm-: times went down from .920 to .730 on my test 01:33:15 not much, but still something 01:36:27 stassats`: thats what I'm getting in my artificial test case, but getting bigger bang for the buck in "jiggle mouse around" test 01:37:06 but thats coz I have lots of overriden qt methods in the scene 01:42:29 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has joined #lisp 01:43:56 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 01:45:01 Also note that Qt usually have a "bulk" interface for stuff, which accepts a pointer to an array of objects, rather then adding them one by one 01:45:29 derekv [~derekv@c-71-238-24-59.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:45 i need to allocate that array of objects somehow first 01:45:53 -!- Kron [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:45:54 Thats why i added cffi:foregn-pointer to Anything * marshalling. So you can allocate chunk of foreign mem, build array of objects in it with cffi, then call the bulk version of the function 01:46:39 *maxm-* does it for painter->drawPoints and painter->drawLines.. In fact I have nifty wrapper macros (with-draw-lines) that macrolet (add-draw-line) and handle the details 01:46:44 lemme paste example 01:47:34 i'm getting lots of "qt_metacall" cache miss for #::qt_metacall 01:47:36 http://paste.lisp.org/display/128117 01:48:02 my mental model of commonqt is weak, it's more than year since i hacked on it 01:48:08 hmm not sure about that one, I don't think I saw it before 01:48:21 it's not printed by default 01:52:27 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.152.109] has joined #lisp 01:52:41 and that's caused by qt sending signals 01:53:03 adding with-signals-blocked around list-model reduced time further to .250 01:53:06 now, that's something 01:54:18 lambda47 [~lambda47@221.200.105.75] has joined #lisp 01:54:28 and now searching torrents fills much more snappy, yay 01:54:29 doh I did not even knew about with-signals-blocked 01:54:36 feels 01:55:00 but i think scene already does this automatically, as I seen "enable-notify-on-item-added" or something like these in qflags for the scene 01:55:40 oh no, I'm assisting in criminal activities :-) 01:56:26 i'm searching through linux distributives and science lectures, of course 01:56:41 as you could see in the video 01:57:12 -!- lambda47 [~lambda47@221.200.105.75] has left #lisp 01:58:03 -!- karswell__ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:58:33 karswell__ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 01:59:04 maxm-: you can get the cache missed message by uncommenting the first line of resolve-call 01:59:24 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0G7F81LTZw 01:59:28 kai__ [~kai@f052101203.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 01:59:28 signals, for some reason, use a slow path for some reason 01:59:55 you resolve-call thing is always going to happen, because CommonQt wants you to be able to override methods dynamically 02:00:05 ie redefine the class -> bam new method override 02:00:25 should be possible to hook up more closely into CLOS and add more caching 02:00:34 TheTom [~tom@80.79-160-161.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:47 well, blocking the signals works quite nicely for me so far 02:02:02 i think it could cache it for qt_metacall 02:02:19 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:32 because that's what gets called when you wiggle the mouse (by sending signals) 02:03:15 -!- kai_ [~kai@f052102020.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:04:50 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 02:05:25 icylisper [~icylisper@27.7.49.38] has joined #lisp 02:10:45 -!- icylisper [~icylisper@27.7.49.38] has quit [Quit: icylisper] 02:13:29 stassats, when is the last time you frobbed a slot 02:13:47 4 minutes ago 02:13:53 wow 02:13:56 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.210.103] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 02:16:37 -!- TheTom [~tom@80.79-160-161.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:19:36 icylisper [~icylisper@27.7.49.38] has joined #lisp 02:23:01 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-210-103.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 02:25:27 pnathan1 [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 02:25:27 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:27:28 ISF_ [~ivan@201.82.132.28] has joined #lisp 02:30:58 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.132.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:32:22 -!- rswarbrick [~rswarbric@cl-1290.lon-02.gb.sixxs.net] has quit [Quit: Toodle doo!] 02:39:31 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users79.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Quit: good night] 02:40:20 KDr2 [~kdr2@114.243.230.81] has joined #lisp 02:43:30 CrLF0710 [~user@223.240.75.98] has joined #lisp 02:44:34 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.176] has joined #lisp 02:45:50 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:48:00 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A3D1B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:48:17 Hi, when you want to do a (DEFVAR ...) inside a lexical environment, say (let ((foo 'something)) ...), the variable won't be declared SPECIAL under the compilation mode. And it's not proper to put the whole LET into a EVAL-WHEN, or it will do unnecessary calculations and outputs at compile-time. So i wonder what is the right way to do this? 02:48:38 Do you want a defvar or a labels? 02:48:43 defvar 02:48:46 Er. Excuse me. I had a stupid there. 02:48:56 CrLF0710: defvar is used on the top level 02:49:01 yeah, i know 02:49:12 but in case someone what to do this 02:49:16 what=>want 02:49:18 CrLF0710: all other uses are non-idiomatic and you are not "supposed" to do it. 02:49:20 (let ((foo)) ;; foo is not a defvar 02:49:42 i mean, (defvar *x* (+1 foo)) 02:49:53 that should work fine. 02:49:56 Modius [~user@cpe-70-123-128-240.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:49:58 why would you want to do that? 02:50:04 Is there a lisp bitwise "count bits"? 02:50:08 I mean, count set bits 02:50:12 logcount 02:50:27 i don't really want to do that... But how to correct this program? 02:50:41 CrLF0710: which program? 02:50:47 CrLF0710: you are not making sense 02:50:57 (let ((foo 3)) (defvar *x* (+1 foo))) 02:51:06 at toplevel... 02:51:10 CrLF0710: you are constructing a use case that is not sensible and then ask for "correction" 02:51:20 it is correct, albeit stupid, code 02:51:44 no it is not correct. *x* is not declared SPECIAL at compile-time 02:52:08 (defvar *x* 4) would do 02:52:29 yes, of course. 02:53:39 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-213-013.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:54:05 if you want to initialize variables based on something, then first define them with defvar, then make function (defun initalize-variables () (let ((foo 3)) (setf *x* (1+ foo)))) 02:54:53 Mmm, yes. 02:55:42 Thanks. 02:56:20 CrLF0710: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/26_glo_t.htm#top_level_form 02:58:37 OK, thanks too. 02:58:38 -!- KDr2 [~kdr2@114.243.230.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:02:01 zulu_inuoe [~zulu_inuo@c-174-58-204-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:53 KDr2 [~kdr2@114.243.230.81] has joined #lisp 03:03:29 -!- icylisper [~icylisper@27.7.49.38] has quit [Quit: icylisper] 03:03:32 homie: Yes there is a way to get unidata.bin into the core. 03:03:48 oh 03:04:00 rtoym: how ? 03:04:11 *rtoym* is trying to remember 03:04:19 i just don't know if the package stuff is broken after dump..... 03:04:29 or why it can't find it 03:05:10 unidata.bin is found in a certain location by default. You can use the -unidata (?) command-line option to specify where. 03:05:34 Has anyone by chance gotten lisp to play nice with an IIS server? Either through CGI or some other majykks? 03:05:34 Error in function LISP::REINIT-CHAR-ATTRIBUTES: 03:05:34 Cannot find "ext-formats:unidata.bin", so unicode support is not available 03:05:34 [Condition of type SIMPLE-ERROR] 03:05:50 that's the error i get just at the beginning 03:05:59 Or you can use (lisp:load-all-unicode-data). That should load everything into memory so when you dump a core, you don't need unidata.bin anymore. 03:06:03 and i have to type 0 in order to continue or 1 03:06:04 zulu_inuoe: rdnzl should work with lispworks 03:06:37 oh your (lisp:load-all-unicode-data) seeems reasonable 03:07:40 zulu_inuoe: I have no idea but would imagine you could run Hunchentoot and configure IIS to proxy to it 03:07:46 Ohh wow that's a great link H4ns. I seriously need to bookmark these libraries or something 03:07:55 aaah, -unidata i didn't see that yet...... 03:08:10 thank you much rtoym 03:08:23 zulu_inuoe: what docAvid says, too. 03:08:30 homie: That's relatively new. Try lisp --help to see the options available. 03:08:33 i'll try both approaches and see which is better 03:08:40 yes i have it 03:08:46 i have -unidata 03:09:09 docAvid: I was thinking of that approach but it's for work and I want to keep my stuff as streamlined as possible so I don't draw any attention 03:09:21 for now... 03:09:28 afterwards i'll test the xlib functionality again in both cmucl and sbcl 03:09:42 last time things were screwed or so on sbcl-x64 03:09:44 zulu_inuoe: Wise 03:09:57 now that i have both x86 and x86-64 versions...... 03:10:06 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:14:34 -!- davlap [~davlap@pool-108-49-122-166.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:15:14 H4nz: Any idea how stable that really is for SBCL? And also, forgive my ignorance but how would I about hooking my lisp into IIS? Would I make a .NET app (in C# or ASP.NET) that calls it? 03:15:30 davlap [~davlap@pool-108-49-122-166.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:54 wth, lisp has a g-sharp 03:20:43 lambda47 [~lambda47@221.200.105.75] has joined #lisp 03:21:16 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable151.155-57-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:21:30 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-213-013.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 03:21:46 -!- kai__ [~kai@f052101203.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:22:00 -!- lambda47 [~lambda47@221.200.105.75] has left #lisp 03:22:05 lambda47 [~lambda47@221.200.105.75] has joined #lisp 03:22:59 -!- pnathan1 [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:23:41 -!- lambda47 [~lambda47@221.200.105.75] has left #lisp 03:23:55 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:24:01 dys` [~andreas@krlh-5f7341c2.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:24:03 lambda47 [~lambda47@221.200.105.75] has joined #lisp 03:24:33 -!- lambda47 [~lambda47@221.200.105.75] has left #lisp 03:24:53 lambda47 [~lambda47@221.200.105.75] has joined #lisp 03:25:03 -!- lambda47 [~lambda47@221.200.105.75] has left #lisp 03:26:08 -!- dys [~andreas@krlh-4d02b870.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:27:58 -!- dys` is now known as dys 03:29:36 -!- davlap [~davlap@pool-108-49-122-166.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 03:30:04 SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:08 wildnux [~wildnux@cpe-76-183-81-208.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:34:03 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:34:55 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 03:35:09 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 03:36:40 -!- yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Quit: computer sleeping] 03:37:52 yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:41:55 joast [~rick@98.145.91.18] has joined #lisp 03:48:58 icylisper [~icylisper@27.7.49.38] has joined #lisp 03:52:35 -!- icylisper [~icylisper@27.7.49.38] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:52:56 icylisper [~icylisper@27.7.49.38] has joined #lisp 03:53:18 just curious: ...why are there "deleting unreachable code" notifications when compiling sbcl? 03:53:36 -!- icylisper [~icylisper@27.7.49.38] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:53:50 icylisper [~icylisper@27.7.49.38] has joined #lisp 03:53:57 lazybone [~yukiy@182.148.192.103] has joined #lisp 03:55:34 the compiler was deleting code which was unreachable? 03:56:07 unreachable ? void references ? 03:56:34 It was able to statically determine that some code would never be run 03:56:58 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:56:58 trés passè ? 03:57:27 (if nil (blah) (bloo)) blah will never be run. I don't know if it can determine that, in particular 03:57:38 But that sort of thing, where the compiler manages to prove that some code won't run 03:58:50 eèé, meh 03:58:59 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.81.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:59:39 -!- sysop_fb [~fb@108-66-160-34.lightspeed.spfdmo.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:59:50 lemoinem [~swoog@162-76-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:21 Fare [~Adium@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:06 lambda47 [~lambda47@175.169.156.62] has joined #lisp 04:03:09 -!- lambda47 [~lambda47@175.169.156.62] has left #lisp 04:05:45 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:06:35 How can I reinterpret a 32-bit integer as a 32-bit floating point number? 04:07:27 (float number) ? 04:08:27 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:08:54 I mean reinterpret the binary bits 04:09:57 oh 04:11:17 I don't think there's an inverse to INTEGER-DECODE-FLOAT 04:11:47 (standard, of course) 04:12:37 interesting 04:12:51 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:13:38 mjonsson, you can probably write it easily enough with DEPOSIT-BYTE 04:13:47 wait, what am I saying, nevermind that 04:14:34 mjonsson, have you seen http://www.cliki.net/ieee-floats 04:17:01 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 04:17:51 I have, but it's so complex for what should be 3 or for asm instructions 04:17:51 3 or 4 04:18:49 -!- derekv [~derekv@c-71-238-24-59.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:19:56 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:19:58 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:20:22 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has joined #lisp 04:23:19 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:24:03 found it! sb-kernel:make-single-found 04:24:09 float 04:24:51 -!- SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:24:54 Sounds unportable 04:25:56 (find 'single (apropos 'float)) 04:26:07 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:18 -!- docAvid [~user@74-94-233-157-Michigan.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 04:26:38 homie, neat 04:26:39 apropos doesn't return a list last time I checked 04:26:49 Uh, oh 04:26:53 I didn't even try it 04:26:55 >.> 04:30:17 (with-input-from-string (s (with-output-to-string (*standard-output*) (apropos 'float))) (loop for form = (read s nil nil) while form collecting form)) 04:30:20 I don't recommend that 04:31:04 mjonsson: have a look at com.informatimago.common-lisp.heap.heap::gen-ieee-encoding. 04:31:07 How about apropos-list? 04:31:20 *cough* 04:31:38 Hence! Why I didn't recommend my approach! When there's a much better -standard way-! 04:31:48 :) 04:34:15 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:34:20 -!- icylisper [~icylisper@27.7.49.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:34:29 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 04:35:15 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:36:04 *homie* shakes shoulders! 04:37:01 -!- karswell__ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:37:33 icylisper [~icylisper@27.7.49.38] has joined #lisp 04:37:34 karswell__ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 04:39:00 -!- nialo` [nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:40:45 -!- MrBusiness [~MrBusines@75-163-245-119.clsp.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:41:17 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:41:57 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-153-19.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:42:10 Can Haskell do (check-type test (not null)) ? 04:42:10 MrBusiness [~MrBusines@75-163-245-119.clsp.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:42:20 not types! :-) 04:42:42 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-153-19.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:43:01 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-154-87.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:44:19 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-185-238.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:45:29 nialo` [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:47:41 -!- karswell__ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:47:48 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:48:26 karswell__ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 04:48:38 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:50:20 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.155.66] has quit [Quit: rme] 04:54:22 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-153-19.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:54:40 jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 04:55:28 syrinx__ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 04:55:29 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-210-103.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 04:55:56 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 04:56:12 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-153-19.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:14 -!- syrinx_ is now known as Guest22106 04:56:47 -!- syrinx__ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Client Quit] 04:57:29 syrinx__ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 04:57:30 -!- icylisper [~icylisper@27.7.49.38] has quit [Quit: icylisper] 04:58:28 -!- syrinx__ is now known as syrinx_ 04:58:33 hefner [~hefner@c-69-255-57-56.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:58:38 -!- Guest22106 [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:00:07 antoszka: see http://paste.lisp.org/display/128119 05:00:17 icylisper [~icylisper@27.7.49.38] has joined #lisp 05:02:44 -!- icylisper [~icylisper@27.7.49.38] has quit [Client Quit] 05:02:45 CrLF0710: (defvar *var* (let ((lexical-environment 1)) (your-expression-using lexical-environment))) 05:03:25 CrLF0710: it's somewhat meaningless to consider the *var* in the lexical environment, unless it is bound itself. In which case you don't need defvar since it wouldn't be a global anyways. 05:04:15 CrLF0710: Also, you may define local special variables: (let ((*local* 42)) (declare (special *local*)) (f)) so you can write: (defun f () (declare (special *local*)) *local*) to use it. 05:06:05 CKlang [~GoodPoo@ip72-207-16-214.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:06:09 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 05:06:24 -!- zulu_inuoe [~zulu_inuo@c-174-58-204-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~] 05:07:20 -!- lazybone [~yukiy@182.148.192.103] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:09:58 -!- Fare [~Adium@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:18:56 docAvid [~user@74-94-233-157-Michigan.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:01 icylisper [~icylisper@27.7.49.38] has joined #lisp 05:26:04 Kron__ [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has joined #lisp 05:29:10 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:34:53 -!- ISF_ [~ivan@201.82.132.28] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 05:36:35 Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has joined #lisp 05:37:07 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:38:28 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.235.212] has joined #lisp 05:49:41 alek_b [~alek_b@99-10-120-63.lightspeed.sndgca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:50:22 dto [~dto@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:50:28 encoding a fun Lisp video now :) 05:51:45 Ooh 05:53:17 What's it on? 05:53:22 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.58.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:54:05 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.176] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:55:54 Sgeo: pnathan: http://blocky.io/blocky-lightning-talk-5.mp4 05:55:59 will have an ogv version shortly 05:56:17 dtw [dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 05:56:19 Ooo, blocky 05:57:49 Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:03 -!- icylisper [~icylisper@27.7.49.38] has quit [Quit: icylisper] 06:02:47 -!- kilon_away [~kilon@athedsl-189030.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:03:33 -!- dtw [dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:03:51 dtw [dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 06:05:10 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@p5DE8FE44.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:06:11 -!- Harag [~phil@dsl-146-205-216.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:06:37 seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:07:32 for those of you who prefer OGV format: http://blocky.io/blocky-lightning-talk-5.ogv 06:08:25 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:08:32 poindontcare [~user@cpe-76-172-78-4.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:10:56 Cosman24` [~user@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 06:10:56 -!- Cosman24` [~user@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:11:06 Hello, everyone 06:11:27 What is the preferred documentation generator? 06:15:44 -!- dto [~dto@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:15:57 teggi [~teggi@123.21.170.206] has joined #lisp 06:16:00 wakeup [~wakeup@p57A57E3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:16:11 I don't know what the preferred is, but edi weitz has a html-generating program that I've used: http://weitz.de/documentation-template/ 06:18:29 -!- karswell__ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:18:59 karswell__ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:20:53 Where did dto go? 06:20:54 Oh 06:21:03 Blocky makes me think of Smalltalk 06:21:08 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 06:21:22 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-189030.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 06:21:43 fe[nl]ix: any hope of getting that issue fixed in the near future? 06:24:27 does the issue lie in CCL? 06:28:43 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.62.127] has joined #lisp 06:29:48 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@host155.201-253-134.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7-dev] 06:30:06 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-172-241.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:31:53 -!- yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Quit: computer sleeping] 06:32:37 yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 06:35:03 leo2007 [~leo@111.194.102.93] has joined #lisp 06:35:28 langbiangplaza [~ghkhghffd@117.3.199.48] has joined #lisp 06:35:32 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@p57A57E3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:35:54 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 06:36:38 wakeup [~wakeup@p57A57E3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:37:45 icylisper [~icylisper@27.7.49.38] has joined #lisp 06:37:48 -!- Kron__ [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 06:38:20 sunmix [~user@49.49.132.32] has joined #lisp 06:38:22 asvil` [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 06:38:44 -!- srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:39:14 ysph [~user@adsl-98-89-83-58.mgm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 06:40:03 -!- langbiangplaza [~ghkhghffd@117.3.199.48] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:40:48 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-159-88.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:41:14 langbiangplaza [~ghkhghffd@117.3.204.41] has joined #lisp 06:41:40 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-019.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:41:55 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:42:07 -!- karswell__ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:42:42 pnathan: thanks 06:42:54 karswell__ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:44:37 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-149-69.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 06:44:42 -!- icylisper [~icylisper@27.7.49.38] has quit [Quit: icylisper] 06:46:06 -!- antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1176449274.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:49:03 -!- karswell__ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 06:52:57 -!- langbiangplaza [~ghkhghffd@117.3.204.41] has quit [] 06:53:51 gaidal [~gaidal@90-224-48-215-no56.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 06:53:51 icylisper [~icylisper@27.7.49.38] has joined #lisp 06:58:15 langbiangplaza [~ghkhghffd@117.3.204.41] has joined #lisp 06:58:51 -!- langbiangplaza [~ghkhghffd@117.3.204.41] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 06:59:50 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-35-55-23.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:00:37 I'm missing something here: I'd like to be able to do (reduce #'and '(t t t t t)) but AND is a macro, and therefore can't be passed into reduce. 07:00:55 pnathan: : (every 'identity '(t t t t t)) 07:01:15 every, some, notany, notevery 07:01:34 Is that the typical way to send a list to a macro taking &rest args? 07:01:53 No. You don't seed lists to macros at run-time. 07:02:03 At run-time, you use functions. 07:02:08 on run-time data. 07:02:08 ... 07:02:27 You can use macros only at compilation time, on source code or data. 07:02:50 Now, of course, you can play tricks with lisp, since you have eval, you can introduce a compilation time at run-time. But it's silly. 07:05:15 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@p57A57E3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:05:19 wakeup [~wakeup@p57A57E3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:58 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.62.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:09:30 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:09:46 Hmm, there should be a function version of those short-cutting things 07:10:39 macroexpand isn't behaving as I think it should 07:12:01 http://paste.lisp.org/display/128120 07:12:03 -!- icylisper [~icylisper@27.7.49.38] has quit [Quit: icylisper] 07:12:11 Why isn't macroexpand recursively expanding the thing? 07:12:22 A macroexpand around the result also doesn't work 07:12:28 Is it just expanding the car? 07:12:32 -!- yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Quit: computer sleeping] 07:12:35 And not looking at inner macros? 07:12:38 That makes no sense 07:12:50 Hello, Sgeo 07:12:54 Hi Cosman246 07:13:32 might want to check the clhs again, sgeo. 07:13:47 *Cosman246* is working on MULCH and mftlspec 07:14:22 "Neither macroexpand nor macroexpand-1 makes any explicit attempt to expand macro forms that are either subforms of the form or subforms of the expansion. " 07:14:24 Ah 07:14:49 Um, so how would I go about reducing all macros to non-macros? 07:15:08 Say, for a code-walker that wants to see all functions that may be called. 07:15:58 I am thinking that I should only have to deal with special forms and function calls. 07:18:55 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:22:14 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:22:42 There is a macro called lambda. 07:22:57 yes? 07:23:27 sigi-ntb_ [~sigi@host-213-189-171-252.brutele.be] has joined #lisp 07:24:11 Oh, so it just sort of puts the #' in automatically. 07:24:21 greaver [~jo@41.138.11.188] has joined #lisp 07:24:34 I still don't quite get how #'(lambda () foo) makes sense 07:24:49 Yuuhi [benni@p5483CE88.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:26:11 it's a special case for the FUNCTION special form. 07:26:38 I guess I'm thinking like a Schemer or Haskeller 07:27:12 lambda47 [~lambda47@175.169.144.218] has joined #lisp 07:28:27 -!- lambda47 [~lambda47@175.169.144.218] has left #lisp 07:29:26 Sgeo: it makes perfectly sense, because the inner AND may not be a macro. It may be some data, or some other operator. 07:29:58 Sgeo: that's why there's #+clisp ext:expand-form and #+swank swank:swank-macroexpand-all 07:30:17 Hmm. 07:30:28 Can I use swank functions without running the server? 07:30:32 And every is short circuiting! 07:30:52 (every 'print '(t t t nil t t t )) prints only 4 objects. 07:30:59 Sgeo: sure. 07:31:20 same for some, notany and notevery. 07:31:25 ....why does swank:swank-macroexpand-all take a string? 07:31:44 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:31:51 Try swank-backend:macroexpand-all then. 07:32:04 swank is designed to serve the purposes of slime. 07:32:22 Thank you 07:40:22 -!- sunmix [~user@49.49.132.32] has left #lisp 07:43:15 -!- cbp` [~user@187.193.228.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:46:09 EDWARD_ [~GoodPoo@ip72-207-16-214.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:47:27 -!- EDWARD_ [~GoodPoo@ip72-207-16-214.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [K-Lined] 07:47:27 -!- CKlang [~GoodPoo@ip72-207-16-214.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [K-Lined] 07:52:27 kilon_alios [~kilon@athedsl-401185.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 07:52:40 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@p57A57E3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:52:45 wakeup [~wakeup@p57A57E3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:54:45 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-189030.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:58:49 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 08:02:29 araujo [~araujo@190.73.44.29] has joined #lisp 08:02:33 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:02:36 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.44.29] has quit [Changing host] 08:02:36 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 08:04:41 clintm [~cmoore@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:06:06 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-153-19.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: enough] 08:06:40 Do any of you know of a package that will let me control an interactive process from cl in some fashion like the old 'expect' util that came with tcl/wish? I'm confident that the correct path has to do with sb-ext:run-program and process-input/output, but I haven't had much luck so far. 08:09:52 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:13:08 -!- hefner [~hefner@c-69-255-57-56.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:13:46 -!- sigi-ntb_ [~sigi@host-213-189-171-252.brutele.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:16:03 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 08:18:06 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:19:02 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-172-241.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:22:36 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:22:38 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@p57A57E3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:22:49 wakeup [~wakeup@p57A57E3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:22:58 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:24:19 -!- CrLF0710 [~user@223.240.75.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:28:07 c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 08:32:29 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-240-59.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:33:05 kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 08:33:15 Hello #lisp 08:33:22 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0E80.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:36:18 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:36:38 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.152.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:37:04 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.152.109] has joined #lisp 08:37:52 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 08:38:55 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-165-81.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:39:20 Hello 08:40:51 Hi 08:52:45 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@p57A57E3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:52:50 wakeup [~wakeup@p57A57E3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:49 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-097-177.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:59:10 -!- leo2007 [~leo@111.194.102.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:06:33 -!- ysph [~user@adsl-98-89-83-58.mgm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:08:14 leo2007 [~leo@114.249.18.93] has joined #lisp 09:08:51 pjb: Yeah, lol. But why aren't you sleeping at 6 in the morning :)? 09:09:09 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:10:03 -!- borkman [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:11:16 superflit [~superflit@75-171-202-150.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 09:12:24 -!- cmbntr [~cmbntr@slice.loopback.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:13:03 phd [~user@114.249.18.93] has joined #lisp 09:13:19 -!- phd [~user@114.249.18.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:13:23 cmbntr [~cmbntr@slice.loopback.ch] has joined #lisp 09:13:38 antoszka: because I woke up at 4:00 :-) 09:14:20 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:18:05 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 09:21:47 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@p57A57E3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:21:49 clintm: nothing AFAIK. I just heard last week somebody talking about writing such an expect in CL. 09:21:53 wakeup [~wakeup@p57A57E3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:22:14 clintm: it's probably more complex than run-program: you need to deal with pty/ptx to do it just like expect. I'd rather try to use iolib. 09:23:19 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-35-55-23.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:24:13 icylisper [~icylisper@27.7.49.38] has joined #lisp 09:27:52 4:00 is da bomb 09:28:03 re 09:28:22 *maxm-* is having first morning coffee ah 09:28:27 maxm-: not when you go to sleep at 18:00 09:28:52 18:00 too early for me, round 8-9 here 09:28:56 -!- dan64 [~dan64@li58-98.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 09:29:16 my alarm is at 4:30 but I use the "sleep as a droid" app, which surprinly work very well at detecting deep sleep 09:29:21 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@cpe-76-183-81-208.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:29:44 and it wakes you up early if you start tossing/turning due to "wake up before the alarm" phenomenon 09:30:00 I should try that 09:30:20 kpreid [~kpreid@Lark.price.clarkson.edu] has joined #lisp 09:31:14 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-409412.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 09:32:37 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-097-177.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:33:32 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-097-177.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:33:57 -!- kilon_alios [~kilon@athedsl-401185.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:35:28 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@p57A57E3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:35:39 wakeup [~wakeup@p57A57E3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:35:48 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129029119.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 09:36:06 erm 09:36:51 (defvar *foo* nil) within a function still makes *foo* behave as though global when the function is called the first time, right? 09:37:04 Yes. 09:37:32 But since it's not a toplevel form, the compiler doesn't register it's a global special variable, so it might give errors or warnings on other uses of that variable. 09:37:38 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-149-69.as43234.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:38:23 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-125-220.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 09:39:40 (let ((*foo* ...))) won't be special 09:40:24 -!- icylisper [~icylisper@27.7.49.38] has quit [Quit: icylisper] 09:40:30 dan64 [~dan64@li58-98.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 09:44:20 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:44:36 -!- dan64 [~dan64@li58-98.members.linode.com] has quit [Client Quit] 09:47:07 pjb: 09:47:14 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:47:16 Yes/ 09:47:16 ? 09:47:45 pjb: lol i clickde return accidentally, um i was going to say, then by general rule of thumb defvar should be called from the top level 09:47:48 ? 09:47:56 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:47:56 Yes. 09:48:32 also: CrLF0710: Also, you may define local special variables: (let ((*local* 42)) (declare (special *local*)) (f)) so you can write: (defun f () (declare (special *local*)) *local*) to use it. 09:48:36 not a rule of thumb, it should always be at the top-level 09:49:27 somebody's having 100GB SBCL images 09:49:40 that's taking "not caring about image size" to another level 09:50:11 Joys of 64-bit systems. 09:53:18 dan64 [~dan64@li58-98.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 09:53:26 pjb: i dont understand that code snippet 09:53:59 quazimodo: You can have special variables that are not global variables. 09:54:14 You only need to declare it specially in the lexical scopes where it's used. 09:54:24 But since it's special, it's the same variable in both scopes. 09:54:27 pjb: via the let call right 09:54:35 hrm i see 09:54:54 so outside and inside the function f its still the same variable 09:58:27 Yes. 10:00:03 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.210.103] has joined #lisp 10:03:32 is there an easy way to get at a slot with :class allocation without an instance of the class (but with the class name / metaobject)? 10:03:44 No. 10:03:49 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 10:04:20 You may use the class prototype that's instantiated once the class is finalized, but you -need an instance. It's easier to (make-instance 'my-class) than to find the class prototype. 10:05:11 I suspect maybe what I should do then is subclass standard-class and store the data in the metaobject 10:05:34 I guess that would be possible. Or just use a global variable. 10:05:40 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@p57A57E3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:05:52 wakeup [~wakeup@p57A57E3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:06:06 there will be multiple classes like this, with different values for each 10:06:12 if all you need is a class allocated slot, creating a metaclass would be an overkill 10:06:39 stassats: well that was my initial thought, but other options are starting to seem hacky 10:06:45 df_: you can have one global variable per class. 10:06:48 I need this information in order to instantiate the class 10:07:14 what information? 10:07:39 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.210.103] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 10:07:46 the classes represent messages in a wire protocol, the information describes how to unmarshal the message arguments 10:08:16 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@static.146.73.9.176.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:08:36 so, how does affect instantiation? maybe an additional parameter for initialize-instance would do the job? 10:08:40 I think your problem is that you have your own definer macro right? 10:08:45 Well, a :allocation :class seems to be in order. Don't shy creating an instance to initialize it. 10:08:46 but don't know how to put defvar in there 10:08:48 its easy 10:09:00 (progn) at top level is treated as if all members of progn were in top level 10:09:13 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 10:09:29 so (defmacro def-my-class () .... `(progn (defvar ,varname) (defclass ,classname ...))) 10:09:31 well I'm trying to instantiate it with initargs for all the arguments - guess I could just instantiate it empty and set them afterwards instead 10:10:35 df_: can you describe exactly what role would class-allocated slots perform? 10:11:26 each class represents a different message type, each message type has a different argument list (basically a list of types) 10:11:36 the class has a slot for each argument 10:11:57 but needs the type (not cl type) information to populate them 10:12:59 we would understand better if you gave trivial example of a class and 2 messages 10:13:49 what I got from above is something like (class blah-serializer () ((a) (b))), message 1 a :string b: number message 2 a: number b: string? 10:14:02 which does not make any sense 10:14:30 Also, you can write a metaclass to allow additionnal slot attributes. 10:14:45 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.210.103] has joined #lisp 10:14:58 (defclass message () ((a :type integer :external-type int32) (b :type string :external-type (varchar 32)))) 10:16:59 pjb: that would be ideal I think 10:17:10 easier to define your own macro imho, but metaclass would work too 10:17:19 hello 10:17:19 IIRC there's some SQL library that does that. 10:18:16 maxm-: no, a macro wouldn't cut it 10:19:57 why, defmacro that expends into defclass, with :allocation :class slot being assoc list or hash, with :initform '((a :type ..:external-type ...) (b :type ... :external-type ...)) 10:21:10 or actually better to initialize it with already looked up type-to-type converters, ie :initform '((a . #'string-to-int32-converter) (b . #'string-to-varchar-converter)) 10:21:59 but this is because I imagine doing one's own metaclass to be hard, maybe its in fact easier then above, never tried it myself 10:22:12 it's not hard 10:22:36 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:28:16 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@90-224-48-215-no56.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:35:33 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@p57A57E3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:35:38 wakeup [~wakeup@p57A57E3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:35:55 -!- EyesIsServer [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:37:10 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:44:17 gaidal [~gaidal@90-224-48-215-no56.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:48:08 osa1 [~sinan@95.8.103.159] has joined #lisp 10:50:53 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:51:10 swank:start-server has no :coding-system argument any more? 10:52:05 EyesIsServer [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 10:53:03 it doesn't 10:53:17 I hope it defaulted to utf-8? 10:53:32 or is it "latin-1 was good enough for ibm, its good enough for you" 10:53:33 I think it uses what SLIME uses. 10:54:08 you mean on the incoming connection? 10:54:11 *maxm-* can live with that 10:55:33 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:58:05 slime-connection-coding-systems should be set? 10:58:48 slime-net-coding-system 10:59:51 daimrod: this would set it globally for all slime connections, right? 11:00:17 yes. 11:01:05 -!- leo2007 [~leo@114.249.18.93] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.4.1] 11:02:33 daimrod: is there any way of setting the coding-system of a certain connection? 11:03:00 I see slime-set-connection-info which sets slime-connection-coding-systems 11:03:15 for a certain connection 11:03:24 kami: I'd bet yes. You can define a slime-lisp-implementation and configure the coding system (I don't know however if it's the network coding system), or you may have a look at the :init or :init-function arguments. 11:04:01 or maybe with (let ((slime-net-coding-system 42)) (..)) but that's ugly. 11:04:32 ah 11:04:40 (slime &optional COMMAND CODING-SYSTEM) 11:05:40 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@p57A57E3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:05:45 wakeup [~wakeup@p57A57E3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:06:00 pjb: thanks. 11:09:01 -!- osa1 [~sinan@95.8.103.159] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:10:25 [6502] [58959a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.154.87] has joined #lisp 11:12:59 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:14:24 <[6502]> Hello... suppose i've a (cond ...) with many cases in which each one is about finding an element in an association list or hash table, and if it's there do something with the associated value... what is the least-ugly approach? i don't like the idea of repeating the search twice (once in the cond clause first item and then in a let) 11:14:45 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:14:45 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 11:14:58 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:15:23 (let (entry) (cond ((setf entry (assoc key alist)) (cdr entry)) ...) 11:17:03 anaphora:acond 11:17:15 *dlowe* ducks the thrown vegetables. 11:17:55 <[6502]> acond is something working with "it" i suppose... 11:18:08 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:18:08 right 11:19:09 Should I use defmacro, if I want a function/macro that would alter the values of the arguments given? 11:19:19 Yes. 11:19:29 sie: but even better, define a (setf function) insteaed. 11:19:35 sie: it's often better to write a function that will return the values you want 11:20:04 then you can setf or multiple-value-setf the arguments you want to change 11:22:31 pjb - What are those called/how can I make those? 11:23:45 (defun (setf color) (new-color thing) (setf (slot-value thing 'color) new-color)) 11:23:54 (setf (color thing) 'red) 11:24:42 Instead of (set-color thing 'red) 11:29:04 that doesn't look like what sie was asking 11:29:30 <[6502]> hmmm... why isn't possibile to lexically rebind a constant to something else? I mean what is the rationale behind this? 11:29:48 it's a constant 11:30:05 [6502]: defining a symbol as constant allows the compiler to use its value without reference to the symbol 11:30:24 dlowe: lexical binding doesn't refer to symbols as well 11:30:25 dlowe: a bit like #define ? 11:30:31 it's not a technical problem 11:30:37 and not a problem 11:30:51 it's just constant should remain constant, you shouldn't be able to modify them 11:32:05 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-62-135.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:32:35 daimrod: Not really 11:33:33 stassats: if that was true, you could use a constant as a variable name 11:33:46 <[6502]> daimrod: I don't think you can replace constants at read time if this is what you mean 11:35:34 dlowe: what was true? 11:35:48 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-19-143.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:36:09 stassats`: lexical binding not referring to symbols 11:36:34 I mean, there's some reference to symbols there 11:36:35 there's no symbol references at run-time 11:36:55 constant variables are referred by symbols too, but in compile-time 11:37:00 as well 11:37:25 eh, I guess 11:38:10 so, technically it's quite possible, albeit really not a good idea 11:38:15 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM1-114-12-252.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:38:39 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-58-165-252-158.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:39:10 (let ((pi 2)) (defun circumference (radius) (* 2 pi radius) #|<- this is strange|#)) 11:39:28 Better use another name than PI here. 11:40:26 *[6502]* thought lisp was about freedom, not about someone else thinking for you what is useful and what is useless. For that you can just use Java instead... 11:40:29 CL forces you to use another name than PI here. 11:40:51 [6502]: You can: (shadow 'pi) (defvar pi 42) 11:41:11 CL protects itself. You shall not temper with things in the CL package! 11:41:11 <[6502]> oh... i didn't know "shadow" :-) 11:41:22 Otherwise you an do wahtever you want with your own symbols. 11:41:24 n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@31.163.216.168] has joined #lisp 11:41:24 can 11:41:42 [6502]: why do you use CL if you're always complaining? 11:43:08 although the complaints are usually groundless 11:43:09 <[6502]> stassats`: I'm not complaining... I'm trying to undersand, that's all. And CL looks very nice for me (except some minor ugly parts). Indeed one thing I want to understand is why "no-one" uses it... 11:43:40 we just delivered a very nice airline reservation system that uses it 11:44:00 <[6502]> dlowe: that's what the quotes are for :-D 11:44:01 [6502]: this is an important thing to understand: the CL package is fixed, so that you have a reliable base. But you can do whatever you want in your own package with your own symbols. 11:44:27 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-240-59.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:45:01 [6502]: notably, you can define (defpackage "MY-LANGUAGE" (:export "LAMBDA" "SIN" "PI")) and use it in your program, without using CL: (defpackage "MY-PROGRAM" (:use "MY-LANGUAGE")) (in-package "MY-PROGRAM")  11:45:02 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-240-59.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:45:13 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has left #lisp 11:45:16 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:45:20 kai_ [~kai@f052101203.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:46:32 <[6502]> pjb: Yeah. Still that doesn't explain why lexically rebinding is ok for a symbol-macro but not for a constant... 11:47:51 so that it can be used just as a variable 11:48:22 [6502]: But you are just wrong! (defpackage "MY-LANGUAGE" (:export "DEFCONSTANT" )) (in-package "MY-LANGUAGE") (cl:defmacro defconstant (var val &optional doc) `(cl:defparameter ,var ,val ,@(when doc (list doc)))) (in-package "MY-PROGRAM") (defconstant pi 42) (defconstant pi 3) (let ((pi 3.33)) (defun circum (r) (* 2 pi r))) ; works perfectly well! 11:48:56 remember the important part is that you can write: (defpackage "MY-PROGRAM" (:use "MY-LANGUAGE")) You don't have to use CL. 11:49:39 you can SETQ and SETF on symbol macros too, so when you use WITH-SLOTS, symbol-macros look and behave just like variables, but operate on an object instead 11:49:50 <[6502]> pjb: from CLHS: "The consequences are undefined when constant symbols are rebound as either lexical or dynamic variables. In other words, a reference to a symbol declared with defconstant always refers to its global value." 11:50:34 and a constant is a variable which can't change its value, so, there you have it 11:50:37 [6502]: Yes. This is something that's at the core of the CL language. But you don't have to use CL:defconstant. You can use MY-LANGUAGE:defconstant, with totally different rules. 11:51:15 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:52:33 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@p57A57E3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:52:36 <[6502]> pjb: I understand that. I just wondered why that choice in CL... sounds just dissonating with the spirit of the language (i.e. you can do horrible things with reader macros, but you can just not doing that and only use them in a reasonable way: forbidding defining reader macros because you could write bad code using them is nonsense in Lisp view) 11:52:37 wakeup [~wakeup@p57A57E3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:55 [6502]: not at all. See section 11.1.2.1.2 11:53:41 So this is perfectly in line with CL spirit, embodied by this section. 11:54:00 the spirit of CL is to provide a sane language 11:54:08 for example, you can't add numbers to strings 11:54:17 or call functions with less arguments than it wants 11:54:33 it has all sorts of restrictions 11:54:45 and not being able to modify constants is a very useful one 11:55:21 <[6502]> hmmm 11:55:30 <[6502]> this makes sense 11:55:35 But in MY-LANGUAGE, it's possible: (cl:defun + (&rest args) (reduce 'cl:+ args :initial-value 0 :key (cl:lambda (x) (cl:etypecase x (cl:number x) (cl:string (cl:read-from-string x)))))) 11:55:56 So that (my-language:+ 2 "3") --> 5 11:56:31 So CL doesn't prevent you to add numbers and strings. Just do it with your own stuff. 11:56:52 and CL packages doesn't have too much constants with names you would want to use, so it doesn't pose much of a problem when you want to chose variable names 11:57:14 the only name i accidentally tried to bind is T 11:57:20 <[6502]> very enlightening... thanks guys 11:57:23 <[6502]> hehehe 11:57:37 <[6502]> i keep trying using T as a local :-D 11:58:07 Easy: (shadow 't) (defvar t 't) 11:58:18 or if you prefer: (defvar t 'cl:t) 11:58:30 Yes, better use cl:t so that (format t still works. 11:59:05 or better don't do that and give your variables more sound names, like "time" 11:59:11 or temperature, or whatever 12:00:35 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM1-114-12-252.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:01:00 <[6502]> lunch time... see you later and thanks again for your patience :-) 12:01:08 -!- [6502] [58959a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.154.87] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:01:09 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM1-114-12-252.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:05:26 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM1-114-12-252.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:07:20 sysop_fb [~fb@108-66-160-34.lightspeed.spfdmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:05 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0E80.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:14:00 osa1 [~sinan@95.8.103.159] has joined #lisp 12:14:20 bas [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 12:15:12 -!- bas is now known as Skola 12:17:02 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 12:17:21 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 12:20:40 -!- osa1 [~sinan@95.8.103.159] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:22:05 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 12:22:18 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@p57A57E3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:22:29 wakeup [~wakeup@p57A57E3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:22:57 Xach: back from Boston yet? 12:22:58 osa1 [~sinan@95.8.103.159] has joined #lisp 12:25:59 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.61.163] has joined #lisp 12:25:59 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.61.163] has quit [Changing host] 12:25:59 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 12:33:25 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:36:17 -!- osa1 [~sinan@95.8.103.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:41:36 dto [~dto@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:42:35 osa1 [~sinan@88.244.224.160] has joined #lisp 12:42:51 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.210.103] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 12:49:06 icylisper [~icylisper@27.7.49.38] has joined #lisp 12:50:10 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.152.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:51:58 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-151-211.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:52:58 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@p57A57E3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:53:12 wakeup [~wakeup@p57A57E3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:06 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 12:56:18 -!- osa1 [~sinan@88.244.224.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:56:23 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 12:57:21 I don't think Xach stayed the night 12:57:49 hey folks 12:57:51 morning dlowe 12:58:04 hi 12:58:56 hi 12:59:07 dlowe: are you talking about the boston lisp meeting 12:59:38 josemanuel [~josemanue@46.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 13:00:50 -!- Modius [~user@cpe-70-123-128-240.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:00:58 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 13:03:11 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.152.109] has joined #lisp 13:03:59 dto: I think so 13:04:15 My favorite so far 13:04:29 dlowe: i saw the summary, sounds like it was a good time :) 13:04:35 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-240-59.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:04:38 was there any drunk debauchery? 13:04:41 ha 13:05:02 stassats: there may or may not have been a simultaneous use of EVAL and GOTO 13:05:29 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-240-59.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:06:36 Boston is far, we need a meeting in Paris. I could come then 13:06:48 so start one :) 13:07:16 Already started, I'm currently meeting with myself ! 13:07:39 (no alcohol though, only coffee) 13:07:44 Paris is far, i'd go to helsinki 13:08:13 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:09:31 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.152.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:10:00 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.152.109] has joined #lisp 13:13:33 -!- dtw [dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:15:31 dtw [dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 13:17:37 klltkr [~klltkr@188.222.83.162] has joined #lisp 13:19:19 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:19:48 ngz [~user@69.205.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:35 Harag [~phil@dsl-146-205-216.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:20:48 langbiangplaza [~ghkhghffd@117.3.202.57] has joined #lisp 13:21:59 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:23:43 -!- icylisper [~icylisper@27.7.49.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:24:49 -!- machine2 [~machine4@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: : http://www.beta.facefox.com/index.php?do=/user/register/] 13:25:29 -!- langbiangplaza [~ghkhghffd@117.3.202.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:25:34 machine2 [~machine4@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:44 mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 13:28:08 -!- The_third_man [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:29:11 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 13:29:44 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:31:08 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:09 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@46.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 13:38:46 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 13:40:06 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:45:33 -!- mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:45:49 mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 13:46:33 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-185-238.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:47:08 -!- nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:47:13 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.152.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:47:13 *Xach* got back at 2am yesterday 13:47:14 -!- nialo` [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:47:30 nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:47:32 nialo` [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:03 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:51:14 H4ns: I hope to do a Quicklisp update tonight 13:51:36 Xach: eek. 13:51:56 Xach: i'll try my best, there is a lot of stuff in the pipe and it won't help if i defer longer. 13:52:36 heh 13:53:00 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-185-238.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:06:29 Xach: let me know if you have time at some point today, if you are interested, i can show you my new vid with a lot of progress 14:08:45 -!- ngz [~user@69.205.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:11:42 anyone used github add collaborator? 14:11:54 how does it work, you just add them it and guy has push access? 14:12:52 yes 14:14:46 -!- mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:15:02 mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 14:16:41 -!- Ashii [~Ashii@c-2457e255.246-1-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:17:02 -!- DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:18:56 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:22:12 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:13 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:27:04 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 14:27:53 ngz [~user@69.205.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:33 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:32:38 -!- dtw [dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:33:18 Xach: hunchentoot, drakma and yason releases are up. if you could update the yason location, it'd be great. 14:33:56 -!- dto [~dto@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:34:41 *maxm-* is doing a tricky dance of trying to unload the work of actually deviling a rough idea to unsuspecting collaborator 14:34:51 s/deviling/devoloping 14:35:40 dtw [dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 14:36:07 will do 14:36:17 icylisper [~icylisper@27.7.49.38] has joined #lisp 14:36:35 H4ns: uh oh 14:36:46 Xach: hm? 14:36:53 Xach: how did i blow it? 14:37:06 H4ns: tar tzf yason.tar.gz 14:38:05 *blush* 14:38:43 Where is the hunchentoot .tar.gz? 14:39:11 tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.58.205] has joined #lisp 14:39:32 yason is fixed 14:40:12 https://github.com/downloads/edicl/hunchentoot/hunchentoot.tar.gz is the distribution location of hunchentoot 14:40:42 weitz.de is picking it up, but that takes a little. edi wanted me to keep the old canonical location in the doc. 14:40:47 -!- mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:41:05 mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 14:41:16 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:42:03 Xach: hold it, i need to fix the tars for both hunchentoot and drakma 14:42:22 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 14:42:26 -!- Xach has set mode -t 14:42:26 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:42:30 -!- greaver [~jo@41.138.11.188] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:43:35 tiglog [~topeak@118.186.129.186] has joined #lisp 14:44:28 -!- tiglog [~topeak@118.186.129.186] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 14:44:35 dto [~dto@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:53 tiglog [~topeak@118.186.129.186] has joined #lisp 14:45:44 -!- H4ns changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: Hunchentoot 1.2.3, Drakma 1.2.6, ABCL 1.0.1, SBCL 1.0.55, CMUCL 20c 14:45:48 ok, should be good now. 14:48:04 bjonnh [~bjonnh@2a01:e35:8a53:8940:21e:64ff:fe84:8986] has joined #lisp 14:48:12 Uh oh 14:48:23 when loading yason: Control stack exhausted 14:49:26 man 14:49:32 i'm bad at making releases. 14:49:39 *H4ns* checks 14:50:55 sigi-ntb_ [~sigi@host-213-189-171-252.brutele.be] has joined #lisp 14:51:00 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 14:51:39 -!- mathrick__ is now known as mathrick 14:52:53 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 14:53:10 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@188.222.83.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:57:33 SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:40 Xach: yason fixed, too. 15:01:08 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-240-59.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:02:16 -!- dto [~dto@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:08:49 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0E80.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:11:05 madnificent [~madnifice@static.146.73.9.176.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 15:11:51 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:12:08 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 15:12:10 Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:00 klltkr [~klltkr@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:14:19 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-235-115.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:08 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-125-220.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:18:00 sellout [~user@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 15:18:17 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:18:55 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-235-115.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:21:11 zulu_inuoe [~zulu_inuo@c-174-58-204-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:37 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-203-180.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:23:23 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-220-236.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:27 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-120-252.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:53 -!- icylisper [~icylisper@27.7.49.38] has quit [Quit: icylisper] 15:26:56 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.152.109] has joined #lisp 15:29:21 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-185-238.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:29:58 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.106.180] has joined #lisp 15:33:02 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:33:10 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.152.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:34:12 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 15:34:27 does anyone here know of any blog posts or projects in which (a) lisp (i have a high preference towards common lisp) is being used for programming diy embedded systems like the arduino. i don't mind if it's different hardware or anything of the likes, but i'm looking for information on something like that. 15:35:00 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-64-233.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 15:35:55 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:36:19 osa1 [~sinan@88.240.134.136] has joined #lisp 15:36:26 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@124.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:38:26 brooksbp [~brian@rrcs-70-63-158-4.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:40:47 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:41:21 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 15:42:26 rwiker_ [~rwiker@233.80-202-200.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:45:44 yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 15:46:47 syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-carl-202-217.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 15:47:01 rme [~rme@50.43.155.66] has joined #lisp 15:49:55 wildnux [~wildnux@69.199.88.19] has joined #lisp 15:51:02 -!- osa1 [~sinan@88.240.134.136] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:51:59 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:52:02 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:55:40 madnificent: lisp is a general programming language, any information you will receive by perusing texts concerning other language will be of use to you 15:56:26 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 15:56:43 stassats: well, not really. lisp's footprint is relatively big, so i was hoping on finding out which boards they had used for it. 15:56:44 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 15:57:06 H4ns: yay 15:57:19 i don't think that it'd be a good idea to use common lisp on such boards 15:57:21 I expect CCL would run nicely on a raspberry pi 15:57:43 CL is for real computers (bought on dimes) 15:58:47 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 15:59:14 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:59:28 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:55 df_: indeed, it's information like that that i'm hoping to find. but for the raspberry pi i'd still need some kind of breakout board. those aren't completely finished yet (or so it seems). 16:00:35 not always there's any information, sometimes you need to be a pioneer 16:00:55 cbp` [~user@187.193.228.84] has joined #lisp 16:01:07 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-35-55-23.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:08 but most often, you're better off asking, before reinventing the wheel. so the question still stands :) 16:02:11 ccl targets armv7-a, so it unfortunately won't run on the raspberry pi. 16:02:45 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-carl-202-217.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:02:57 rme: ecl would still work... so that is not a major issue (i'd have preferred ccl though) 16:02:59 oh damn - clisp then I guess :D 16:04:23 madnificent: what do you want to do with such things? 16:04:42 H4ns: around? 16:06:06 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 16:07:13 stassats: i'm getting more interested in controlling servos and reading sensory inputs. for various things, both interfacing with my old car's peripherals and for automating mundane packaging tasks i see around me. 16:07:32 icylisper [~icylisper@27.7.49.38] has joined #lisp 16:08:18 stassats: though generally, that question is asked when #lisp is trying to tell people that lisp is superior regardless of them not knowing the answer to the question. please don't go there, it's not helping at all and i'm not interested in doing it if it's not going te be fun (and as i'm in #lisp, that means i don't really feel like doing it in another language at the moment). 16:09:26 i don't know what's that about 16:09:32 One could write a CL implementation targetting small embedded boards. But indeed, let's keep in mind that credit-card sized Raspberry Pi could run all the current CL implementation, size and power-wise. 16:10:17 ikki [~ikki@228-externo-1p5ec.vxn.itelcel.com] has joined #lisp 16:10:40 Let's remember that Bandicoot is written using CL, but its binary is not generated by a CL compiler, but by a CL program! 16:11:12 rme: this is incorrect: <17:01:40> ccl targets armv7-a, so it unfortunately won't run on the raspberry pi. 16:11:32 It WILL run on the Raspberry Pi, with all probabilities. It doesn't yet. 16:11:41 pjb: the risk of using the raspberry pi (with full linux kernel) is that you can't (by far) ensure that you've read the sensory inputs in time. so you'd still need some external boards to ensure that has been done in time (i think). perhaps it's not an issue in practice, i don't know such things (and want to find out :)) 16:11:57 -!- brooksbp [~brian@rrcs-70-63-158-4.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:12:11 pjb: though cost-wise it makes much sense! and it's what i prefer so far. 16:12:22 madnificent: sure, depends on your application. If you need subnanosecond response time, better do it in assembler. 16:12:53 pnathan [~Adium@rrcs-173-197-180-21.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:12:54 Further, the first linux kernels installed on Raspberry Pi are NOT real-time kernels AFAIK. 16:13:23 But again, this doesn't prevent you replacing the kernel with a RT one. 16:13:44 pjb: i'm more thinking in the lines of "a motor is moving, i have a light sensor which switches every N degrees, how fast could it run reliably without me running into issues. 16:14:21 madnificent: remember, the animals work with brains working at 100 Hz. 16:14:30 pjb: Are the open source fairies are going to send in patches to make ccl run on the Raspberry Pi? 16:14:42 rme: most probably. 16:14:44 pjb: are you joking or not? 16:14:54 Even sbcl might end up running on it. 16:15:09 oh wait, but perhaps that's not necessarily relevant. 16:15:23 And next year, the Raspberri Pi C and D will have twice the memory! 16:15:33 for half the price. 16:15:36 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:15:55 my mobile phone is more powerful and runs CCL 16:16:02 it has more than enough memory for CLISP or ECL + some IO-hanlding tasks. the applications are simple, i guess. 16:16:04 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-35-55-23.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:16:05 *maxm-* is on a hacking binge fixing things left and right. 16:16:34 stassats: if the palm pre would have had accessible IO headers, it would have been perfect! :D 16:17:14 -!- pnathan [~Adium@rrcs-173-197-180-21.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:18:13 and it has usb, granted, it costs 20 times more than raspberry pi, but you can also call your friends and take pictures of cats 16:18:37 cat picture justify the price alone 16:18:38 actual motors run at just single digit kilohertz, slow compared to even really bad computers 16:19:00 stassats: the old pre doesn't cost much on ebay. but it has a touch screen as an interface, that's a cool feat! :P 16:19:45 nialo-: i don't know how much time the linux kernel may take away from my process on a single core machine. given it's tendency to bork on IO loads, it may be more than 0.1 second. 16:20:00 Gmind [~nevermind@113.190.199.255] has joined #lisp 16:20:03 hi 16:20:30 surely, that's an overstatement 16:20:52 and that's just hte thing, i was asking/searching for the answers to the unknowns. though information on the amount of data these motorrs can send is interesting! 16:21:25 just use google to search for relevant information 16:21:31 nobody will lay out everything for you 16:22:57 stassats: again, it may be somewhat different with lisp. that's why i ask here. i've skimmed the raspberry pi forums and i've searched about arduino before asking here. sorry for being interested in something you prefer to just bitch about. 16:23:05 -!- rwiker_ [~rwiker@233.80-202-200.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:23:27 madnificent: Posterdati worked with the arduino I believe. 16:23:38 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 16:24:15 Posterdati: tell me more (/msg me by the time you're on if you catch this) 16:24:17 pjb: thanks 16:24:21 rwiker_ [~rwiker@80.202.200.233] has joined #lisp 16:26:32 *maxm-* vaguely remembers "introducing the transputer.. Its like a computer but with 4 serial ports" something something. It was supposed to revolutionize stuff and bootstrap us into singularity 16:27:17 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-039.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 16:27:22 madnificent: i'm just bitching that CL isn't the most suitable language for it, so nobody uses it, so nobody write about, so you'll have to do everything on your own 16:27:47 maxm-: I imagine some secret organization grabbed them and have already transputer-based AI. 16:28:03 and CL isn't any different than other language, so everything you'll learn concerning Python will be applicable to you 16:28:10 What they use them for, I wonder. Making gogols of money perhaps? 16:29:50 granted, you'll have to interpolate, but that's the power of humans, their mind is capable of forming original ideas 16:30:06 err, extrapolate 16:32:55 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:34:50 Ashii [~Ashii@c-0657e255.246-1-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:35:05 rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:35:28 the problem with the transputers was the same as for all other exotic & specialized hardware: they were killed by general-purpose hw 16:36:36 economies of profit be damned! 16:38:03 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has joined #lisp 16:39:06 would they write an OS entirely on CL ? 16:39:23 they who? 16:39:38 any 16:40:21 Symbolics was written in CL 16:40:38 what's that ? 16:40:42 well, Genera was written in CL, Symbolics is a computer 16:40:49 look it up 16:42:01 that's pretty new to me 16:42:43 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 16:43:05 everything is new at one time 16:43:35 Mowitz is also pure lisp, I think 16:43:44 It is. 16:44:05 although it's called Movitz 16:44:22 but it's not really in a usable state 16:44:31 Let's finish it. 16:44:41 what for? 16:44:44 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:44:54 Besides, Movitz is a CL implementation designed to write kernels, not to write applications. 16:45:20 i'm happy with the linux kernel running SBCL 16:45:52 stassats: i fully disagree with you. with modern embedded boards being about as powerful as computers were 20 years ago, it should be suited. plus, all normal arguments pro using lisp still hold, so i'd say lisp is suited. 16:46:37 depends on what you do 16:46:41 the problem is that any comparisons are going to be against modern hardware? have you tried using a 20 year old lisp machine? 16:46:47 yes, it depends, so stop bitching please :) 16:46:48 i wish my core i5 was 10 times as fast 16:47:05 Yes, five minutes at ELS in Lisbon. 16:47:39 You wouldn't feel any difference in response time from current computers (for the interactive lisping you'd do in five minutes). 16:48:07 I disagree (and I have a TI MicroExplorer?) 16:48:08 rwiker_: embedded operations for controlling things haven't become vastly more complex. we still use similar stepper motors and similar input sensors afaik. 16:48:10 -!- SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:48:54 Fare [~Adium@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:30 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0E80.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:51:55 -!- ngz [~user@69.205.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:55:17 hrm, i cant find away to reset my sbcl environment in google 16:55:27 does it exist, or should i restart sbcl 16:55:32 if writing kernel was the main purpose, seem like forth and lisp are very competitive to each other. 16:55:57 quazimodo: restarting is the easiest 16:56:10 Xach: kk 17:04:09 -!- ch077179 [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:04:48 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-039.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:05:09 pnq [~nick@AC816E4E.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 17:05:14 gabnet [~gabnet@ACaen-257-1-23-41.w86-220.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:07:56 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:08:11 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:43 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:12:09 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:13:14 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 17:13:15 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:13:30 -!- rwiker_ [~rwiker@80.202.200.233] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:14:15 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:14:45 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:14:59 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [] 17:15:24 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 17:16:20 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 17:16:28 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-64-233.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 17:17:04 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:19:34 rogersm [~rogersm@187.Red-212-170-13.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:47 *Xach* wonders why until-it-dies fails so hard 17:19:55 -!- rogersm [~rogersm@187.Red-212-170-13.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 17:21:19 ch077179 [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has joined #lisp 17:21:42 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@69.199.88.19] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 17:21:49 wildnux [~wildnux@69.199.88.19] has joined #lisp 17:22:06 rogersm [~rogersm@187.Red-212-170-13.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:28 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:23:46 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:22 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:35:30 Modius [~user@cpe-70-123-128-240.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:36:01 Is eq guaranteed to be true for fixnums of the same value? 17:36:33 no 17:38:32 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:39:52 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:42:37 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 17:43:49 eq isn't really guaranteed to be true for any value 17:43:53 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:43:57 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@ACaen-257-1-23-41.w86-220.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 17:44:15 (eq x x) is 17:44:20 rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:44:28 x isn't a value 17:44:51 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0E80.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:44:58 if x is the same as x 17:45:08 yes, that's the definition of eq 17:45:58 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:46:23 If x is bound to a character or a fixnum, (eq x x) may return nil (see the examples on clhs eq). 17:46:34 so, it's guaranteed to be T for all same non literal objects 17:47:16 That's because implementations are allowed to _copy_ fixnums and characters, when passing them as arguments to a function such as EQ. 17:47:39 (defun eq (a b) ) therefore a and b can be two different copies of a fixnum, and therefore not EQ. 17:48:35 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:44 For other objects, be they literal or not, no copying is allowed, therefore if they're EQ, EQ will return T. 17:49:04 (eq '#1=(a b c) '#1#) --> T 17:53:27 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-205.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:54:39 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 17:55:37 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 17:55:44 -!- icylisper [~icylisper@27.7.49.38] has quit [Quit: icylisper] 17:56:14 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@90-224-48-215-no56.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:56:53 kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@xdsl-87-79-160-4.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:58:05 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:58:49 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 18:02:27 ISF [~ivan@201.82.132.28] has joined #lisp 18:02:41 Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:11 -!- kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@xdsl-87-79-160-4.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:05:58 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:07:47 lispm [~lispm@g224047144.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:08:50 -!- Gmind [~nevermind@113.190.199.255] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:14:04 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:15:05 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 18:15:59 -!- sigjuice [~sigjuice@184-106-98-73.static.cloud-ips.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:16:43 antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1176449035.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:18:24 sigjuice [~sigjuice@184-106-98-73.static.cloud-ips.com] has joined #lisp 18:20:03 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 18:20:14 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:21:21 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 18:21:30 -!- rogersm [~rogersm@187.Red-212-170-13.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:21:57 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:23:45 sellout` [~user@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 18:24:41 -!- nialo` [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:25:10 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-210-103.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 18:25:18 -!- nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:25:34 -!- sellout [~user@setf.clozure.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:26:44 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:27:36 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.132.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:29:15 bridgeb [~barry@cpc1-dudl9-0-0-cust44.wolv.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:29:19 -!- tiglog [~topeak@118.186.129.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:29:37 ngz [~user@69.205.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:42 Xach: do you get cl-oauth from https://github.com/skypher/cl-oauth ? 18:32:15 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 18:33:47 rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:34:04 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:34:16 nialo` [nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:18 nialo- [nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:35 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 18:37:35 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:38:40 Xach: I'm asking because the checkout I get from quicklisp is different from the repo. Something related to the release cycle or something? 18:38:45 -!- nialo` [nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:38:58 nialo` [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:59 -!- nialo- [nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:39:18 ok, moved reader-interception and fare-memoization out of fare-utils 18:39:21 more to come 18:39:23 nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:46 I'll probably take the interface library out of it, too 18:40:07 but not split it between pure and stateful datastructure sublibraries 18:42:20 -!- sigi-ntb_ [~sigi@host-213-189-171-252.brutele.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:42:23 have to publish my shell ersatz library, etc.\ 18:42:30 dunno what name to give it 18:42:41 shell-ersatz? 18:42:57 but if it grows enough, it won't be an ersatz anymore... 18:43:08 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:43:08 BlankVer1e [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 18:43:09 sigi-ntb_ [~sigi@host-213-189-171-252.brutele.be] has joined #lisp 18:43:11 what does shell-erzatz do? 18:43:23 -!- BlankVer1e [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Client Quit] 18:43:30 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 18:44:04 (because "shell-erzatz" means nothing to me, for one. "shell" as in a unix shell?) 18:44:11 Kenjin: that is a branch of cl-oauth but skyper's changes where finally pulled into the main branch this week but I don't think quicklisp has caught up yet 18:44:40 The_third_man [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:51 yes, unix shell. 18:45:07 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0E80.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:45:13 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:45:24 Currently, the library allows you to run shell commands on local or remote host with a syntax such as: 18:45:28 Harag: yeah, guess so. The main branch is at Gitorious? 18:45:36 arborist [~arborist@e182028120.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:45:43 Froward [~uh-oh@64.134.100.195] has joined #lisp 18:45:51 (run `(pipe (rpm -qa) (grep "foo")) :host target-host) 18:46:23 it will use ssh as appropriate 18:47:08 nothing erzartz about that :) 18:47:56 it only has a tiny subset of shell functionality, though most of what I need for casual shell scripting 18:48:16 actually, in the above you'd use run/lines to have the results as a list of strings. 18:48:35 Kenjin: github from what I can see from the mails this week, its the one maintained by Leslie Polzer 18:49:08 Harag: I use github regularly so I keep tabs on that one 18:49:40 https://github.com/skypher/cl-oauth/pull/3#issuecomment-4154418 18:50:12 ok sorry skyper is leslie, the pull request was from sellout 18:50:49 yeah 18:51:05 had them mixed up there for a moment sellout has the branch 18:51:08 Kenjin: yes, i get from that git repo, and it was checked out on February 8. 18:51:14 Kenjin: I hope to make an update today. 18:52:00 Harag: yeah, some commits from sellout fix the issues I was having 18:52:04 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 18:52:13 Xach: awsome ;) 18:54:25 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:55:04 sellout saved my life when I tried to get my head around cl-oauth, I got cl-oauth to work for me without his fixes but I only use the client bits 18:56:12 Harag: yeah he fixed a couple things that are nagging me and also some nice refactoring 18:56:22 s/are/were 18:58:03 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 18:58:03 pnathan [~Adium@76.178.164.157] has joined #lisp 18:58:35 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.170.206] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:59:50 -!- sigi-ntb_ [~sigi@host-213-189-171-252.brutele.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:00:04 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-036.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 19:00:12 sigi-ntb_ [~sigi@host-213-189-171-252.brutele.be] has joined #lisp 19:02:41 -!- sigi-ntb_ [~sigi@host-213-189-171-252.brutele.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:03:00 sigi-ntb_ [~sigi@host-213-189-171-252.brutele.be] has joined #lisp 19:03:21 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@host39.190-229-112.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 19:03:54 hello, is it somehow possible to quote a comma for usage in a macro-writing macro? 19:04:13 Noo. 19:04:30 arborist: the implementation of backquote and comma is implementation dependant. 19:04:31 -!- bridgeb [~barry@cpc1-dudl9-0-0-cust44.wolv.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:04:44 you can nest backquotes. 19:04:58 arborist: in macro writing, just use normal list operators: list, list*, append, cons, etc. 19:05:00 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:05:23 -!- sigi-ntb_ [~sigi@host-213-189-171-252.brutele.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:05:41 sigi-ntb_ [~sigi@host-213-189-171-252.brutele.be] has joined #lisp 19:05:50 i know, but the arguments to the second macro are only computed at expansion of the first 19:06:12 m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.97] has joined #lisp 19:06:17 arborist: You can do things like 19:07:15 `',a 19:07:16 Sorry, hit the enter key.. You can do things like `(something `(something-else ,that)) 19:07:17 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:07:50 beware of three-comma programmers 19:08:51 hm, i trying these, but nesting quotes is just a bit confusing 19:08:59 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:09:18 *maxm-* did the double comma, but never attempted a triple 19:09:27 btw the right way to do the double comma is ,',var 19:09:55 maxm-:Is it?.. Or are you just drawing a crude middle finger? 19:10:08 can't it be both? 19:10:35 ie (defmacro macro-writing-a-macro (foo bar) `(defmacro ,foo (..) `(,'bar blah))) 19:10:45 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0E80.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:11:16 then (macro-writing-a-macro a b) will expand into (defmacro a (..) `(b blah)) 19:11:37 in ,'bar should read ,',bar above 19:11:41 so i compute some list (a b c) in the first expansion, and then i need to get to get an expansion like (defmacro macro (a b c) (list ,a ,b ,c)) 19:11:55 zulu_inuoe: for real 19:12:07 that cant be done implementation independent? 19:13:25 I think you just blew my mind here 19:14:24 -!- Froward [~uh-oh@64.134.100.195] has quit [Quit: even in laughter, the heart of Snorlax is sorrowful. and the end of that mirth is heaviness.] 19:15:15 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #lisp 19:15:25 Wait no.. That's for a different purpose.. 19:17:28 OH! Nevermind! .. I'll put properly understanding that on a //TODO list, but for now I get it enough.. 19:18:40 So this is a random question here.. but hey. I am thinking of a programmer slang word (like 'kludge' or 'grovel') that means "to do something with".. but I can't for the life of me figure out what it is. It's on the tip of my tongue.. Anyone know the word? 19:19:10 Frobnicate? /no idea 19:19:14 FROB 19:19:15 yes 19:19:23 frob! Thank you so much! 19:20:08 twiddle is similar 19:20:21 -!- Fare [~Adium@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:20:37 Yes, but I specifically was thinking of frob.. It was going to drive me crazy all day 19:21:13 glad to contribute to sanity 19:23:12 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 19:23:42 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 19:25:03 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.235.212] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:25:46 -!- yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Quit: computer sleeping] 19:25:52 anyway, the lesson I learned from the ,',var stuff, if you don't want to go insane, write a (defun %santas-little-helper-expander ()) function rather then use nested backquotes 19:26:16 maxm-: just use list list* cons append etc. 19:28:38 -!- rme [rme@F367759E.4E81D677.699BA7A6.IP] has quit [Quit: rme] 19:28:38 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.155.66] has quit [Quit: rme] 19:29:50 -!- benny [~benny@i577A203C.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:30:48 Froward [~uh-oh@c-71-200-123-212.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:46 benny [~benny@i577A7734.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:35:06 Anyone know the price tag on enterprise ACL? And is it a lifelong license or must be renewed? 19:35:50 zulu_inuoe: the price tag is negotiable. 19:36:06 zulu_inuoe: easiest way to find out what you personally will pay is to contact the company. 19:38:09 Xach: Oh okay. Thank you. What do you negotiate on, though? Just the price depending on what my uses are, or do they do things like include/exclude features to change the cost? 19:38:26 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.97] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:39:39 zulu_inuoe: You could say "I want to evaluate ACL's suitability for my project so I want to pay $0 for the full version for N months, and then we can talk again." 19:40:13 m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.97] has joined #lisp 19:42:17 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.218.33] has joined #lisp 19:42:34 Oh wow. That sounds like a good old fashioned mom & pop store haha. Appreciate it 19:42:38 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.217.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:42:38 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 19:42:48 zulu_inuoe: pro tip: everything is negotiable with anyone at any time. 19:44:37 Maybe I'll try that with LispWorks. I'm looking to snag one of them in the very near future so I'm doing a little research 19:45:06 -!- Harag [~phil@dsl-146-205-216.telkomadsl.co.za] has left #lisp 19:46:44 zulu_inuoe: Franz will be happy to arrange an evaluation license so you can test it out 19:47:02 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.198.154] has joined #lisp 19:47:27 Fare [~Adium@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:02 urandom__ [~user@p548A2E85.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:13 my demos:demo is now failing totally both on x86 and x86-64 sbcl 19:49:16 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.218.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:49:16 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 19:50:05 -!- poindontcare [~user@cpe-76-172-78-4.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:50:12 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 19:53:10 dabd [~dabd@a79-169-214-13.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 19:54:13 error is async request or so here http://pastie.org/3513624 19:55:55 yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:56:19 and the files are menu http://pastie.org/3513634 demo http://pastie.org/3513636 19:57:59 and all works in cmucl ....... 19:59:34 ISF [~ivan@201.82.132.28] has joined #lisp 20:00:39 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@69.199.88.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:01:55 -!- FireFly [~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:02:40 -!- pkhuong [~pkhuong@gravelga.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:03:24 Xach: I tried (ql-dist:initialize-system-index (first (ql-dist:enabled-dists))) but that doesn't seem to update ~/quicklisp/local-projects/system-index.txt ; what should I do to integrate new systems without restarting? 20:04:34 pkhuong [~pkhuong@gravelga.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #lisp 20:08:25 gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 20:08:42 FireFly [~firefly@firefly.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #lisp 20:08:43 Xach: it looks like the system-index.txt is filled with wrong pathnames, using the current directory as base,instead of ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ 20:10:07 OK. Now moving the interface library out of fare-utils. 20:10:22 Shall I call it interface? 20:10:32 Drewc suggested lil  lisp interface library 20:10:57 (still don't have a name for my shell frontend library) 20:11:08 pipes? 20:11:27 process-pipes? 20:12:27 cl-pipes? 20:12:54 "leash" (which is like "lish" (which is like "scsh") with a french accent) 20:13:00 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:13:08 I'll get me coat 20:13:15 pipes-of-jericho 20:13:42 run-process ? 20:13:49 spawn-process ? 20:14:06 subprocesses ? 20:14:24 inferior-shell! 20:14:30 nice 20:14:32 I like 20:14:42 it's a good pun, too 20:14:57 I'm taking it. Thanks a lot, cmm! 20:15:08 you are welcome :) 20:15:22 shall I credit you with it? 20:17:21 nah 20:17:21 yes. 1000 20:20:02 emacs docs actually use the term "inferior shell", in fact (now that I actually googled it), so credit goes to them anyway 20:20:05 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:21:30 i have a range of 400 1200 of real-time for all maxima test for all sbcl x86 x86-64 and cmucl-32 the lower being under normal load and the higher under high system-load.... 20:22:25 high-system load, i man parallel execution of all the tests in different sbcl/cmucl interpreters/compiler (in emacs) 20:24:11 rme [~rme@50.43.155.66] has joined #lisp 20:34:30 -!- dabd [~dabd@a79-169-214-13.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:35:35 -!- amagnus [~alice@alice.ipq.co] has quit [Quit: amagnus] 20:36:04 -!- tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:36:25 tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:46 should I put those trivial rpm handling functions in inferior-shell or in yet another library rpm ? 20:37:00 I suppose the latter 20:37:05 pdponze [~pierre@37.0.41.146] has joined #lisp 20:37:11 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@host39.190-229-112.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:40:41 -!- dtw [dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:40:57 just call that library rpm ? 20:41:02 cl-rpm ? 20:42:07 LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-8-26.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:52 -!- Sgeo [~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:43:52 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:57 Sgeo [~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:18 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:47:16 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:47:33 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:51:08 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@181.28.178.241] has joined #lisp 20:54:13 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-44-57.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:08 well, that was great. only took me a couple of hours to realize that ssh-add was broken because SSHKeychain, which I used to use many years ago, was setting my SSH_AUTH_SOCK for me on startup and hosing things... 20:55:15 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:55:30 H4ns: I asked before, but then I disappeared... are you around? 20:55:44 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:55 -!- asvil` [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:00:16 I'm around! 21:00:20 I'm no H4ns, though. 21:06:11 hey xach 21:06:37 ill ask you then 21:06:41 any thoughts on http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3253.txt 21:06:55 I'd like to see support for REPORT in drakma 21:07:06 it's really quite trivial, at least as far as what i need goes 21:09:04 dnolen [~user@p72-0-226-118-static.acedsl.com] has joined #lisp 21:13:48 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.198.154] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:17:00 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.195.76] has joined #lisp 21:17:01 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.195.76] has quit [Client Quit] 21:20:57 m7w [~chatzilla@31.24.92.187] has joined #lisp 21:21:19 arrdem [~reid@resnet-45-180.dorm.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 21:21:35 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 21:24:30 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-165-81.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:25:35 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@31.24.92.187] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:28:47 -!- zulu_inuoe [~zulu_inuo@c-174-58-204-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~] 21:28:59 daniel__1 [~daniel@p5082A9BB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:19 -!- daniel__ [~daniel@p5082A4A0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:31:34 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.176] has joined #lisp 21:31:35 mjonsson_ [~mjonsson@38.109.95.176] has joined #lisp 21:36:16 Jubb [~ghost@pool-72-66-102-48.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:15 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:38:53 snits [~snits@75-167-2-163.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:15 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A2E85.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:41:47 *stassats* completed a hack, waits for glory 21:41:53 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 21:42:39 OK, inferior-shell and rpm are published. 21:44:03 wildnux [~wildnux@cpe-76-183-81-208.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:44:08 urandom__ [~user@p548A2E85.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:28 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-120-252.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:45:19 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-120-252.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:59 rswarbrick [~rswarbric@cl-1290.lon-02.gb.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:51 Hi, I'm trying to do something sensible in an overloaded (setf slot-value-using-class). The effective-slot-definition object has a slot called setter, which is either a lambda form, a symbol (naming a function) or '(setf blah). In the last case, at the repl, I can do (funcall (function (setf blah) ...) and everything works fine. But of course, I can't do (funcall (function (slot-value slotd 'setter)) ...) because function is a special ope 21:52:51 rator thing. What am I missing? 21:53:08 (or, "Why is what I'm doing brain-damaged?", if you prefer) 21:53:33 kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@164-177-151-185.static.cloud-ips.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:54:24 Why do lambdas get to go in the heads of forms but other programmatically generated functions need to be called with funcall? 21:54:30 If that didn't make much sense, the (wrong) code I have at the moment is http://paste.lisp.org/display/128133 21:54:51 Sgeo: because lambda is a function name 21:54:56 lambda expression 21:55:43 Why was it designed like that. It seems bizarre to have that exception 21:56:02 for backwards compatibility 21:56:37 rswarbrick: what are you really trying to accomplish with this? 21:57:07 It's for CLG's slot-value setter / getters for a proxy class representing Gtk objects. 21:57:32 schoppenhauer [~christoph@2a01:4f8:101:281:7ad5:1003:0:1] has joined #lisp 21:57:41 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@2a01:4f8:101:281:7ad5:1003:0:1] has quit [Changing host] 21:57:41 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:58:10 ... and I think I've just worked out what I was missing. One sec. 21:58:29 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-50-205.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:56 make it a requirement for setters to be functions 22:00:15 and what is FUNCTION doing around (slot-value slotd 'setter) ? 22:00:18 Yep, you're right. I've just worked out where I broke what used to work. I think the "setter" slot described a setter (and might contain '(setf blah)), whereas there's another slot called writer-function, which has the restriction you described. 22:00:34 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-72-66-102-48.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:00:38 Nowt. Since funcall does it by itself. *sigh* 22:01:08 OK, I pushed inferior-shell, rpm, fare-memoization, reader-interception onto git repos on common-lisp.net and opened an issue for quicklisp. 22:01:28 rswarbrick: it wouldn't even work, so funcall by itself actually works 22:01:45 stassats: Sorry, I don't understand. What do you mean? 22:01:56 I encourage you to use inferior-shell where you would previously have used shell scripts. 22:01:58 (function (slot-value slotd 'setter)) isn't valid Common Lisp 22:02:04 Indeed. 22:02:53 Sorry, I think what I wanted was something that would act like "function" at runtime, rather than compile time. That is, you give it a variable with the name of a symbol and then it looks it up in the function namespace. 22:03:02 But I was confused, so feel free to ignore me! 22:03:08 it's called FDEFINITION 22:03:11 Ahah! 22:03:15 but, funcall doesn't require it 22:03:29 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 22:03:56 But (funcall (fdefinition (slot-value ....)) args) is presumably valid, whereas (funcall (slot-value ....) args) wouldn't be? 22:04:05 Er. No, that's stupid. 22:04:07 Sorry... 22:04:08 incorrect 22:04:15 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:20 Both are presumably equivalent? 22:04:28 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:04:28 yes 22:05:00 Right. And in fact I've written code depending on the second version working in the past. *facepalm* 22:05:01 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.106.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:06:07 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.106.180] has joined #lisp 22:08:19 -!- rme [rme@F367759E.4E81D677.699BA7A6.IP] has quit [Quit: rme] 22:08:20 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.155.66] has quit [Quit: rme] 22:08:32 -!- Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:08:51 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:08:55 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:11:22 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-097-177.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 22:13:55 slyrus: sounds good to me. i'm a little surprised there's a limited set of accepted methods. 22:16:58 -!- Sgeo [~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:17:28 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.132.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:18:37 Fare: your new project structure will probably go into quicklisp today. if something is broken it will be broken until april. 22:20:58 Fare: what is qwalitee? 22:23:44 Sgeo [~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:51 pushed documentation for inferior-shell. 22:25:21 qwalitee? oops, where did you see it? it's my ITA-internal hack for testing some of our software 22:26:30 fixed rpm to use the correct package, oops. 22:26:46 Xach: thanks a lot. 22:26:52 not seeing the update yet 22:27:20 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 22:27:39 uh, it's pushed... 22:27:52 Hmm 22:28:01 I should re-test qwalitee now that code has been spawned and published off it... 22:28:33 -!- arborist [~arborist@e182028120.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:28:58 Oh, now there is a new error about "illegal function call" 22:29:10 -!- Sgeo [~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:29:19 Xach: for quicklisp, slime is go, and commonqt is go 22:29:23 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:29:24 stassats`: hooray 22:29:49 and this month slime should contain some cool fixes 22:30:35 Fare: do you have a funky reader? I'm getting an error about RPM-VERSION= and an illegal function call for ((< >) nil) 22:30:41 even though that is an ecase clause 22:31:07 funky package? 22:31:16 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:32:06 Fare: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/41993869/quicklisp/fails/fail_rpm_rpm_rpm.txt 22:32:21 -!- sigi-ntb_ [~sigi@host-213-189-171-252.brutele.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:32:25 it doesn't use :cl 22:33:48 d'oh 22:34:28 -!- Fare [~Adium@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:34:38 Fare [Adium@nat/google/x-pvixxhmtjuebdpew] has joined #lisp 22:37:08 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:37:35 OK, pushed trivial fixes 22:37:55 Jubb [~ghost@pool-72-66-102-48.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:59 Now it builds 22:38:12 Xach: are you updating cl-parser-combinators? 22:38:26 slyrus: yes 22:40:28 I was going to say "watch out!" but then I saw this: https://github.com/Ramarren/cl-parser-combinators/issues/3 22:40:35 so, I think that's a fine thing to do. 22:41:15 I spent a fair amount of time scratching my head as to why my parser was failing, but ramarren backed out the problematic change. 22:41:57 *slyrus* has precious little lisp hacking time these days -- hates spending it on stupid things 22:43:02 apologies - next time I'll do more testing before an announce 22:43:21 testing in production is easier 22:43:43 (the code was obviously working before I extracted it from qwalitee; extracting code is not trivial) 22:46:45 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.106.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:50:30 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:51:40 I did a build this morning and now I'm doing another 22:51:46 There have been dozens of updates in the interim 22:51:55 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-409412.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:51:58 Pretty remarkable, actually...can't wait to see if this is the first really broken month 22:52:11 or a really cool month 22:52:13 Sgeo_ [~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:22 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-409162.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 22:52:34 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-44-57.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:52:42 I'm in a "glass is half broken" mood 22:53:04 you need test-gnomes 22:53:29 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-35-53-26.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:31 Something like that, yes 22:53:42 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@213.219.154.131.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:54:43 OK, I actually managed to run qwalitee. Needed more fixes to rpm. 22:56:29 In rpm/character-classes.lisp there are things which belong to a different library. alexandria maybe? 22:56:40 or is that already exported by an appropriate library? 22:57:02 e.g. (defun ascii-lowercase-letter-p (x) (char<= #\a x #\z)) 22:57:17 Xach: where do the gnomes signup? 22:57:24 There is no gnome queue 22:57:49 theBlackDragon [~dragon@213.219.154.131.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:53 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-108-80-229-189.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:27 argh... 22:59:07 "we see you're using your network a lot. how bit if we drop the connection every few minutes so your router doesn't overheat?" 22:59:24 Xach: bummer :p 22:59:34 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-35-53-26.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:59:45 -!- slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 23:00:12 OK. I'll ask for a room at NEU next month. No time to get something at MIT by then. 23:01:02 Xach: can you talk? Which day works best for you? How about Thursday March 29th? 23:01:59 I can talk. Monday through Thursday are equally fine for me. It would be better for me, work-wise, if it was in April sometime. 23:02:49 OK 23:03:15 Quick question: Can someone point me to an explanation of why I can have (typep *x* '(SIMPLE-ARRAY (signed-byte 32) (*))) => T but (typep *x* '(SIMPLE-ARRAY t (*))) => NIL ? 23:03:31 I thought the latter was a larger type, but I've presumably got confused somewhere. 23:03:33 what about Thursday April 26th 2012 ? 23:03:47 rswarbrick: T is for simple-vector 23:03:51 you need * there 23:04:48 Er, I still don't understand. Actually, I don't understand why the three types described at clhs simple-array are disjoint. Presumably that's where I've got confused. 23:04:57 Sorry - where do you mean by "there"? 23:05:07 Fare: that's good for me 23:05:07 (typep *x* '(SIMPLE-ARRAY * (*))) => T 23:05:38 Ah, I see. Is there a type that allows integers and (signed-byte 32)'s ? 23:05:44 (simple-array t (*)) means non-specialized vector 23:05:46 (but not eg. nils) 23:05:57 Ah, I see. 23:06:10 Xach: OK, mark the date. I'll try to grab a room at NEU and/or MIT. 23:06:25 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:06:26 rswarbrick: there's no 23:06:35 stassats`: So I guess the answer is no: I'm dispatching on the type of the vector, which is generic if the implementation couldn't specialize sufficiently. 23:06:35 mensch [~mensch@c-24-128-27-99.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:37 Right? 23:06:42 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.176] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:07:02 And presumably the clhs has some rules about an implementation having to do something sensible with (signed-byte n) for some n? 23:07:21 there're no rules 23:07:55 Hmm, I suppose that sort of makes sense. Does that mean that writing anything with (typep blah '(SIMPLE-ARRAY (signed-byte 32) (*))) is doomed to be very non-portable? 23:08:03 no, it's portable 23:08:09 expecting it to be fast is non-portable 23:08:28 But I meant that I have no idea whether #(1 2 3) will have that type or not, right? 23:09:00 #(1 2 3) is always unspecialized 23:09:12 Ah. Bad example :-) 23:09:26 rswarbrick: (typep blah '(SIMPLE-ARRAY (signed-byte 32) (*))) doesn't check that all elements are of the said type 23:09:49 it checks whether the said vector is specialized to the upgraded type of (signed-byte 32) 23:09:54 Right - it just checks that blah is an array that thinks it holds said signed bytes? 23:10:05 Ok, that makes sense. Thank you very much for the help. 23:10:44 so, if your implementations doesn't support (signed-byte 32) arrays, it'll be upgraded to (simple-array t (*)) 23:10:49 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129029119.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:11:16 And you can ask with upgraded-array-element-type 23:11:17 Yep, I think I understand. 23:11:19 like clisp 23:11:28 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-41-241.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:05 Cool. And I understand why the clg code got broken: they were testing for (simple-array t (*)) and presumably SBCL has got cleverer at making the arrays from the foreign data 23:12:12 (somewhere in the bowels of the code) 23:13:28 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-108-80-229-189.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:13:31 they should've just used VECTOR 23:13:36 -!- slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 23:13:54 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:14:15 The code will from now on :-) 23:15:27 dto [~dto@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:47 dto, Blocky reminds me of Smalltalk 23:16:28 Sgeo_: that's very deliberate 23:17:13 Xach: what about April 19th instead? on the 26th I might be held at the maternity 23:17:29 Fare: that works as well 23:18:26 OK. Send email to eli for the room. 23:22:13 -!- copec [~copec@64.244.102.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:23:00 *Xach* hasn't been to NEU since 1997 or so 23:24:36 you never went to any of our BLMs at NEU? 23:24:44 No 23:24:46 they have a beautiful new building for CS. 23:24:56 just facing the MFA 23:25:38 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@183.106.96.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:25:47 too much abbreviations 23:27:41 CS = computer science. MFA = museum of fine arts (boston) 23:28:09 BLMs = Boston Lisp Meetings. NEU = North Eastern University (neu.edu) 23:29:12 DTO = Doomed To Obscurity 23:35:00 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-54-155.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:37:19 setmeaway [setmeaway3@183.106.96.8] has joined #lisp 23:38:55 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0E80.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:39:38 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@cpe-76-183-81-208.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:39:48 -!- pnq [~nick@AC816E4E.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:39:55 copec [~copec@64.244.102.140] has joined #lisp 23:40:03 wildnux [~wildnux@cpe-76-183-81-208.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:40:51 -!- dto [~dto@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:45:06 I only BLMd at MIT 23:45:45 in Bldg 32 23:45:55 until, of course, the CBC BLM 23:46:04 -!- dnolen [~user@p72-0-226-118-static.acedsl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:46:08 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:46:25 You'll make the long trek to northeastern, though? 23:47:21 stassats`: Thank you for the help. Does this writeup look like it's correct? http://mathematicalmusings.blogspot.com/2012/03/types-of-arrays-in-common-lisp.html 23:48:07 i like how you called Clisp pathetic 23:48:22 Oops. Not intentional 23:48:32 well, i agree with this statement 23:48:40 pnq [~nick@AC816E4E.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 23:48:49 I thought you might :-) But I still wasn't intending to throw flames around... 23:49:10 Anyway, did I understand what was going on correctly? 23:49:47 "pathetic" is a bit harsh 23:49:55 -!- lispm [~lispm@g224047144.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 23:50:03 you should mention that (simple-array * (*)) would be a correct type for all vectors 23:50:09 it does do signed-byte 32 23:50:12 Drat. I meant to add that one. 23:50:32 Ah, so I'm not being harsh :-) I only applied the epithet to an implementation that didn't! 23:50:47 Xach: [1]> (upgraded-array-element-type '(signed-byte 32)) => T 23:51:32 Xach: it's a good epithet. clisp does inspire a lot of pathos 23:51:56 ABCL doesn't as well, but it's because Java is stupid 23:52:36 or was java stupid about unsigned bytes 23:52:43 in this matter I'd rather the post stay descriptive rather than valuational 23:52:43 well, doesn't matter 23:53:43 adeht: What do you mean? 23:54:16 i'd change pathetic to "naive", or "unsophisticated" 23:54:32 Done :-) 23:54:35 Ish. 23:54:45 "uninspiring", "lackluster" 23:54:58 Ah, but I'm British, so it'd better be lacklustre. 23:55:26 Oh, and most upset to learn that you're 3 years younger than me(!!) 23:55:40 I had you down as a grumpy middle-aged compsci professor... 23:55:41 rswarbrick, that I'd rather you stay neutral in your post about such implementation choices 23:55:50 adeht: See the new version. 23:55:54 how did you learn how old i am? 23:56:20 tiglog [~topeak@117.79.232.148] has joined #lisp 23:56:30 stassats`: Your livejournal profile. I was trying to work out whether you were Stas Boukarev and right-clicking in XChat hadn't occurred to me. 23:56:51 oh, right 23:57:02 Sorry if that came across somewhat stalkerish! 23:57:53 i'm not that grumpy 23:58:10 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-8-26.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:58:22 *rswarbrick* assures you that you aren't in the most placatory tone he can manage. 23:59:22 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:59:42 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 23:59:51 i meant, not that grumpy to perceive it as stalkerish, but just simply grumpy, but that's getting to off-topicy