00:01:30 Qworkescence: going through gigamonkeys 00:03:45 -!- leifw [~user@184.152.79.200] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:04:08 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.229.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:04:20 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.229.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 00:05:01 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:06:20 question 00:06:30 why do we have LET and LET* 00:06:49 LET is different from LET* 00:06:53 has it to do with runtime efficiency? 00:07:16 zmv: it appears to me that LET* can do anything LET can do plus some more 00:07:19 LET* allows for variables to refer to variables already defined in the LET* previously 00:07:22 yes. 00:07:28 so why even have LET 00:07:40 my guess is its faster 00:07:41 ? 00:07:54 maybe. I don't really know, I'm a huge noob :P 00:09:01 rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 00:10:16 quasisane, LET binds in parallel 00:10:45 quazimodo, ** 00:13:17 another interesting question 00:13:37 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:13:43 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 00:14:29 when i create a closure, say a lambda function inside a let form, then the variable bindings will be available to the function no matter where I call it... its weird its like the let exists somewhere and the function calls keep happening inside the let 00:15:22 quazimodo, (1) that is not a question, (2) it is not weird since you can see a closure as something that captures the state of its lexical environment. 00:15:32 stuff like (let ((x y) (y x)) ...) 00:15:38 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:16:02 skalawag [~user@c75-111-88-76.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:25 hrm 00:16:29 yeah i can see how that works 00:16:32 quazimodo, when you take a photo outside, it's not like the sky in the photo should change depending on the time of day 00:16:35 it makes logical sense 00:16:44 the photo captures the environment in which it was taken 00:16:50 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 00:16:56 the colors of the trees in the photo don't change with time 00:17:19 same goes with LET, a sort of camera 00:17:19 Qworkescence: i understand, its just that I havent seen it in other programming languages as yet, but it does make sense 00:17:27 of course, Qworkescence is oversimplifying badly, since the environment can be modified. 00:17:29 (well, LET is the env, lambda is the camera) 00:17:42 Ralith, photos can be shopped too 00:17:55 photos are immutable 00:17:56 ^^ 00:19:00 quazimodo, closures exist in many other languages as well 00:19:47 like Scheme :P 00:19:59 Javascript, Haskell, SML, ocaml 00:20:10 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:20:17 -!- eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:20:33 I used C, C++, C# and matlab the most :) 00:20:36 and some php 00:20:54 What a variety you've got. 00:21:08 the mental constructions I have work for them, I never needed to think about it much 00:21:43 its all I needed 00:21:59 I'm a mechatronic and biomedical engineer, not comp eng or sci 00:22:30 quazimodo, I am a biometric engineer, not a comp eng or sci either 00:23:21 quazimodo, Others might disagree but I personally recommend the book SICP first, anyway, as far as Lisp and programming are concerned. 00:24:53 Qworkescence: hmm, with the background of C# (close to Java) and C++, wouldn't the PCL be somewhat ideal for quazimodo? I do like SICP for newcomers if they don't have decent experience programming. So if quazimodo doesn't have much practical experience or misses some concepts SICP may be a better one to start with. 00:25:35 quazimodo: also, that let/let* question, haven't you asked that last week or the week before? 00:25:41 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:27 madnificent: I doubt it :/ 00:27:36 quazimodo: closures are good, since lexical binding can be seen textually on your screen: the lambda is inside the let! 00:27:39 madnificent, Maybe, probably. No doubt PCL is what its title says. But, he said he's not a programmer in the professional sense of the world (software engineering or computer science), so I have a feeling his C(++|#)?/MATLAB programs look like FORTRAN 77 programs, without the same kind of understanding that PCL seems to target, professional software engineers. 00:27:54 s/world/word/ 00:28:01 madnificent: i hope not, that would mean i have amazing memory loss 00:28:06 Qworkescence: if that'd be true, then i'd agree. 00:28:42 Qworkescence: oi they do not look like fortran 77! 00:28:45 lol 00:28:45 quazimodo: i could be wrong. flet and labels, perhaps? do enjoy lisp with either of the books! 00:29:35 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.16] has joined #lisp 00:29:36 quazimodo, I am making assumptions based on experience. 00:30:23 quazimodo: it's hard to judge yourself :) Qworkescence may be right, even if your software works good, does the job and all that. in this case it's not about its decency, it's about the knowledge you have. 00:31:00 question: say we have (let ((*foo* "bla")) (bar)), and we run this (hypothetially) in parallel to (somefunc *foo*), i presume somefunc will see the previous value of *foo*, rather than "bla", right? 00:31:16 -!- tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:31:32 tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 00:31:35 highly system dependent 00:31:38 quazimodo: special variables aren't shared amongst threads (in implementations i know it of) 00:31:43 -!- tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Changing host] 00:31:43 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #lisp 00:31:54 ok 00:33:04 madnificent: yeah you do have a point. I remember early on i'd try to do 15 things inside 1 for loop rather than using 2 or 3 00:33:18 so messy 00:33:43 but i do remember inspecting source codes of things, like qt, when doing my work 00:35:08 bbl 00:39:40 quazimodo: tit's '16 00:54:13 What? 00:54:31 Who wrote that, I dont' have a cat! 00:55:32 Ah, that must be when I switched windows in ratpoison. Control didn't register 00:58:56 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 00:59:14 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:00:55 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-170-253.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:00:58 -!- Froward [~uh-oh@206.231.99.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:02:02 *sykopomp* is still eagerly awaiting Xach's ode to the package system. 01:03:08 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-69.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:03:14 So many odes, so little time :( 01:04:27 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:05:25 -!- tensorpudding_ [~michael@108.87.19.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:05:50 tensorpudding [~michael@108.87.19.80] has joined #lisp 01:07:19 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-170-253.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:08:47 -!- Ralith [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:11:15 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 01:12:51 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 01:15:45 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 01:19:49 Maybe a fourth-order runge-kutta would be good enough. 01:21:53 -!- dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 01:22:35 sykopomp: i might write a little tonight 01:22:45 it's more of a paean than an ode though 01:22:57 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 01:23:37 -!- kai_ [~kai@e179012203.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:23:37 Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:55 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:24:25 -!- Axioplase_ [~Axioplase@130.34.188.206] has quit [Quit: brb] 01:24:55 Axioplase [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 01:25:39 dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:50 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA1183.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:29:07 kai_ [~kai@f052097003.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 01:30:20 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 01:31:47 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 01:36:24 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-170-253.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:01:13 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:01:20 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:04:45 hefner [~hefner@c-69-255-57-56.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:34 -!- saint_cypher [~rjspotter@208.178.63.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:11:16 rukubites [~user@d58-111-177-142.meb802.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:13:10 Xach: re our talk on getopts utilities yesterday, and com.google.flag in particular, I just submitted a pull request with a few cosmetic enhancements. We'll see whether they get accepted. 02:13:40 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:08 rukubites: reb here is the author 02:14:18 *Xach* pokes reb 02:14:25 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:15:54 ... ROTFL 02:16:17 the moment I've seen that package name, my thought was "is a google employee involved?"... >_> 02:16:21 Xach: Okay, cool. Thanks. :-) 02:16:37 "all signs point to yes." 02:17:40 *p_l* needs to arrange his next interview 02:17:43 -!- SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:17:53 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 02:18:31 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:18 (btw, gflags library is quite cool when you need to hack something in C/C++...) 02:19:34 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA1183.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:20:21 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0.2/20120215223356]] 02:20:22 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 02:20:26 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:41 Also useful for lisp when you write lisp scripts. I use them a lot. Usually when dispatching zeromq components (workers, queues, loggers). 02:21:56 I wrote a small extension to the log5 library to write to a zeromq socket. 02:22:53 Let Over Lambda apparently doesn't use earmuff convention. 02:23:03 *boooo* 02:24:54 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:25:27 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.14.18] has joined #lisp 02:26:33 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 02:27:22 -!- kai_ [~kai@f052097003.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:27:44 -!- vimja [~kyle@cayce.dropsonde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:30:33 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 02:32:08 cbp```` [~user@187.193.209.109] has joined #lisp 02:32:44 icylisper [~icylisper@27.7.49.38] has joined #lisp 02:32:56 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 02:33:50 Is all of Let over Lambda going to be opened? 02:34:00 Sgeo: I don't think so. 02:34:28 I don't have any inside knowledge, though. The author could tell you. 02:35:02 Hardcore COMMON LISP 02:40:16 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:40:33 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 02:40:42 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 02:45:34 -!- totzeit1 [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:49:07 fantasticsid [~user@2001:da8:8001:760:2465:7b48:e344:1e12] has joined #lisp 02:50:02 Harag [~phil@dsl-146-232-199.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 02:51:14 dto [~user@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:08 kanru` [~user@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:33 -!- nialo` [nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:54:29 nialo` [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:03 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.34.0] has joined #lisp 02:56:03 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.34.0] has quit [Changing host] 02:56:03 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 02:57:29 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:58:39 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:14 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:01:39 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:45 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:04:54 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:55 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:10:18 fantasti` [~user@178.18.16.11] has joined #lisp 03:10:19 -!- fantasti` [~user@178.18.16.11] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:12:00 -!- fantasticsid [~user@2001:da8:8001:760:2465:7b48:e344:1e12] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:16:49 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quit] 03:17:00 springz [~springz@199.119.206.50] has joined #lisp 03:17:46 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-cpedarzqzgaeqqyt] has joined #lisp 03:26:46 wildnux [~wildnux@cpe-76-183-81-208.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:28:25 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:29:02 dys` [~andreas@krlh-4d02b303.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:43 zulu_inuoe [~zulu_inuo@c-174-58-204-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:55 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@108.87.19.80] has quit [Quit: tensorpudding] 03:30:56 -!- dys [~andreas@krlh-5f71e3b5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:33:16 Does anyone know if it's possible to package TCL/TK together with an :executable SBCL image? I'm looking at avenues to develop an in-house application for my company and I need GUI support on Windows. LTK looks like a good option assuming I can distribute this with no hassle (can't rely on having tcl/tk installed, or the ability to install it) 03:34:20 -!- zmv [~zmv@186.204.150.191] has quit [Quit: imma catch some zees] 03:34:47 All targets will be Windows 7 x64, if that helps any (it probably makes things worse haha!) 03:35:37 Can you not write a web interface? 03:36:11 I've written several in-house apps with web frontend. 03:36:34 tensorpudding [~michael@108.87.19.80] has joined #lisp 03:36:53 you can package tcl/tk .dlls with the executable 03:37:30 rukubites: That is certainly a possibility I had not considered. 03:38:05 kanru`: Just dump wish.exe along with the dlls in the same directory? That works? 03:38:22 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A1D55.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:38:30 kanru`: I thought it needed some other init files or something 03:40:09 superflit [~superflit@75-171-202-150.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:41 hum.. so ltk uses wish? I think that works too 03:45:02 I'm probably going to use rukubites' idea. It's so obvious and has so many advantages, I didn't know why I hadn't thought of it. But I'm still curious about delivering LTK applications... 03:45:24 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 03:45:48 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:45:52 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@87.247.34.0] has joined #lisp 03:45:52 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 03:45:52 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.34.0] has quit [Changing host] 03:45:52 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 03:48:40 What's CommonQt like on Windows? 03:48:58 Like Qt. 03:55:10 -!- zulu_inuoe [~zulu_inuo@c-174-58-204-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:57:28 -!- davlap [~davlap@pool-108-49-122-166.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 03:58:04 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@108.87.19.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:01:00 -!- icylisper [~icylisper@27.7.49.38] has quit [Ping 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[~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:41:12 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 05:44:09 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.10.39] has joined #lisp 05:44:10 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.10.39] has quit [Client Quit] 05:51:46 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 05:52:02 o:-) 05:52:49 *hefner* wonders what mischief pjb is up to 05:53:47 it was a wrong channel error. 05:54:01 But anyways, o:-) is the saint :-) 05:54:58 I need to change the keyboard. I spread cocacola last year on this Filco, and some keys have rebounds and don't work very well. Here, Control didn't register, so C-x o inserted an o instead of switching buffer. 05:56:03 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-115.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:56:25 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-115.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:58:03 sigi-ntb [~sigi@host-213-189-171-252.brutele.be] has joined #lisp 05:59:41 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-121-223-197-249.lns3.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 06:00:42 vairav [~vairav@c-98-207-170-37.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:03:54 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@p5DE8CD83.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:06:10 wakeup [~wakeup@p5DE8D898.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:07:56 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 06:10:34 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:16:35 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:17:01 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.24.9] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 06:18:10 skalawag` [~user@c75-111-88-76.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 06:19:10 -!- skalawag [~user@c75-111-88-76.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:21:03 -!- DataLinkDroid [~David@1.148.121.81] has quit [Quit: Bye] 06:23:48 replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 06:24:20 -!- vairav [~vairav@c-98-207-170-37.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:25:46 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.255.169] has joined #lisp 06:25:46 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.255.169] has quit [Changing host] 06:25:46 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 06:27:01 echo-are` [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 06:28:30 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:28:45 -!- tempire [~tempire@pool-72-91-241-135.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Tempire is going dark. Keep it crispy, folks.] 06:31:55 genivf [~museun@c-98-252-146-102.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:32:32 sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #lisp 06:33:06 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:33:31 -!- Sgeo [~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:35:11 pnathan [~Adium@76.178.164.157] has joined #lisp 06:36:06 -!- icylisper [~icylisper@27.7.49.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:36:17 asvil` [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 06:36:19 pjb: get ye a model m 06:36:27 damn thing can eat a glass of water and keep on going after an air dry 06:37:01 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:37:19 water isn't sticky 06:37:54 I was responding to his broken control key :P 06:38:06 that said, it'd take rubber cement to gum up a model m. 06:38:19 very wide tolerances. 06:38:54 and besides, you can run it through a dishwasher. 06:39:09 -!- nepnux [~wildnux@cpe-76-183-81-208.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:41:34 and besides, non space cadet keyboards are off-topic 06:42:37 my keyboard even can't do C-M-x, where C is caps-lock, how uncool is that? 06:42:51 i have to use another control to redefine DEFVAR 06:43:45 -!- hypercube32 [~hypercube@72.188.111.246] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:45:30 icylisper [~icylisper@27.7.49.38] has joined #lisp 06:48:46 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:49:38 -!- icylisper [~icylisper@27.7.49.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:58:29 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:03:13 ghoti- [4c1b035d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.27.3.93] has joined #lisp 07:03:59 -!- pnathan [~Adium@76.178.164.157] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:04:34 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-49-85.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:04:42 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#lisp 07:22:19 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 07:22:46 tempire [~tempire@pool-72-91-241-135.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:23:41 -!- lnostdal [~Lars@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:25:09 nha [~prefect@5-74.104-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:30:19 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:40:22 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 07:42:40 TheMue [~TheMue@pC19F63F5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:46:46 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.106.180] has joined #lisp 07:49:55 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:49:59 good morning 07:50:24 nepnux [~wildnux@pool-71-252-145-78.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:51:26 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-43-217.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:52:09 -!- echo-are` [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the 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now known as Skola_ 08:14:12 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 08:14:23 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-189.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:14:45 kilon [~user@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 08:15:01 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 08:20:10 -!- hefner [~hefner@c-69-255-57-56.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: MORE CODE] 08:22:25 anaumov [~anaumov@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has joined #lisp 08:22:51 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 08:24:26 blandest [~blandest@ip4-85-204-33-242.euroweb.ro] has joined #lisp 08:27:43 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ligjcoroymydvcpe] has joined #lisp 08:30:30 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-212-18.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:31:14 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-cpedarzqzgaeqqyt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:33:30 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 08:36:10 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:36:23 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 08:37:18 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Client Quit] 08:39:22 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:47:14 does setf create a new binding or does it change the contents of the binding 08:47:17 zmyrgel [~user@193.64.112.22] has joined #lisp 08:48:00 on a variable? the latter 08:49:03 kk 08:49:51 the scope of variables is filtering into my brain slowly, still not intuitively understandable to me but getting there 08:52:17 -!- kilon is now known as kilon_away 08:58:26 meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 08:58:59 http://hyperpolyglot.org/lisp Common Lisp, Scheme, Clojure, Emacs Lisp side-by-side reference sheet 08:59:41 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 09:00:00 gz [~gz@209-6-49-85.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 09:03:25 vairav [~vairav@c-98-207-170-37.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:03:27 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 09:03:37 case sensitive no 09:03:43 that's not really true 09:05:29 lnostdal [~Lars@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 09:07:37 label: set,setq,defun 09:07:42 what does that even mean? 09:10:09 -!- replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:10:29 conclusion, don't read the linked text if you want to learn something about Common Lisp 09:10:30 replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 09:12:42 (reduce (lambda (m o) (concatenate 'string m (string o))) '(#\f #\o #\o) :initial-value "") is ridiculous 09:13:20 Yes. 09:13:39 But so are most of the pedagogical samples. 09:14:22 the last snippet is not pedagogical, it's just written by someone who doesn't know common lisp 09:15:15 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:16:40 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@p33209-ipngn101aobadori.miyagi.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:16:48 -!- vairav [~vairav@c-98-207-170-37.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:18:07 tried to register to edit, and i can't edit it 09:19:16 and gives a bad advice on how to setup slime 09:21:02 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-xfkctudbfftqnnmo] has joined #lisp 09:24:53 newbie1 [~kvirc@178.46.15.77] has joined #lisp 09:28:13 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:28:32 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 09:28:49 -!- newbie1 [~kvirc@178.46.15.77] has quit [Client Quit] 09:29:05 n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@178.46.15.77] has joined #lisp 09:29:30 should with-open-file for an output stream ensure that any buffers were flushed (i.e. finish-output) on normal exit? 09:29:42 or is it a good practice to call finish-output manually? 09:29:48 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 09:30:04 mishoo: it will finish-output automatically, but you may also call it yourself. 09:30:17 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has joined #lisp 09:31:03 pjb: thanks :) yeah, that's what I'd expect too, just wanted to make sure 09:31:05 mishoo: that said, it's not written in the CLHS. cf. clhs close 09:31:16 yeah, just went to the spec and saw it's missing 09:32:00 But that's the expected behavior for CLOSE. Eg. see man fclose 09:32:21 "the transaction with the file system is terminated" may imply that it's flushed 09:32:23 -!- replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:35:31 -!- kilon_away [~user@178.59.17.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:36:49 kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@xdsl-87-79-49-51.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:37:43 -!- nepnux [~wildnux@pool-71-252-145-78.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:43:12 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@p33209-ipngn101aobadori.miyagi.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:43:37 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 09:43:38 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:43:39 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@p33209-ipngn101aobadori.miyagi.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:47:56 yakov [~yakov@77.234.195.14] has joined #lisp 09:48:30 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@p33209-ipngn101aobadori.miyagi.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:48:38 paip kindle edition is complete trash :-( give my $70 back.. 09:48:43 don't buy it. 09:49:52 it's of text paragraphs; images and source listings etc. are images on white background so you can't use dark color theme on kindle.. 09:50:09 poor quality. cocain price. 09:52:41 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-237-9.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 09:55:27 commercial ebooks are mostly morally wrong. 09:55:28 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-120-213.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:59:05 -!- yakov [~yakov@77.234.195.14] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:59:26 yakov [~yakov@77.234.195.14] has joined #lisp 10:00:45 ehu [~ehuels@109.32.201.150] has joined #lisp 10:01:18 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:02:48 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-sojffntazvhxqlvk] has joined #lisp 10:03:50 -!- sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:05:11 sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #lisp 10:15:26 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 10:18:15 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:22:03 -!- conntrack is now known as eyeofra 10:22:46 -!- blandest [~blandest@ip4-85-204-33-242.euroweb.ro] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:24:32 blandest [~blandest@ip4-85-204-33-242.euroweb.ro] has joined #lisp 10:25:00 -!- yakov [~yakov@77.234.195.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:25:28 yakov [~yakov@77.234.195.14] has joined #lisp 10:25:54 -!- eyeofra is now known as conntrack 10:26:46 Younder [~john@4.203.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 10:27:41 why studder in XML when you can Lisp 10:28:13 all speeach impediments being equal ;) 10:28:41 -!- kanru` [~user@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:34:07 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 10:39:23 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Connection reset by peer] 11:59:34 hlavaty [~user@91-65-218-223-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 12:01:37 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:06:42 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 12:07:59 -!- clarkema [~clarkema@31-222-178-169.static.cloud-ips.co.uk] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:10:00 saschakb__ [~saschakb@p4FEA01A2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:11:02 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-43-217.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:11:43 -!- saschakb_ [~saschakb@p4FEA0F36.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:11:54 egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@195.160.233.181] has joined #lisp 12:12:01 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-240-59.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:13:02 -!- kilon is now known as kilon_away 12:17:25 i wonder whether there is such a concept as a "generalized random-access sequence" or a "generalized vector" ? 12:17:59 egnarts-ms: not built-in 12:18:11 which is similar to "generalized variable", but allows access for arbitrary element by index 12:18:30 what is a generalized variable? 12:18:32 There are some libraries for it, and Xof wrote some stuff for extending sequences in SBCL (and others) 12:18:34 as well as a way to know the length of a sequence 12:18:40 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:19:34 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:20:04 what i mean is the following: say you have an algorithm which works with vectors (conceptually) 12:20:28 then, you realize that it should be applied to rows and columns of matrices 12:20:50 and additionally, to the main diagonal of matrices 12:20:52 -!- sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:21:16 and then, to another diagonal of a matrix 12:21:31 (top-right to bottom-left) 12:21:52 what is appropriate data structure for this algorithm to work on ? 12:21:58 egnarts-ms: as said, the standard doesn't define other sequences than list and vectors, and doesn't specify how to creatre new sequence subtypes, but it explicitely allow implementations to provide other sequence subtypes. 12:22:13 sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #lisp 12:22:21 CL is not big on extensibility. 12:22:23 egnarts-ms: on the other hand, you can always write your own abstraction, where you can access equally vectors or row or columns in 2D arrays. 12:22:36 It's really easy to do with closures. 12:22:40 egnarts-ms: an array with an accessor different from AREF 12:23:07 What difference is there between aref and aref anyways? 12:23:18 -!- icylisper [~icylisper@27.7.49.38] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:23:22 cl:aref and my:aref 12:23:34 icylisper [~icylisper@27.7.49.38] has joined #lisp 12:24:19 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 12:24:44 pjb: yes, i thought about what you say. but still this doesn't seem to be a really appropriate abstraction 12:24:56 What? 12:25:15 look, how do we think about generalized variables ? "anything where we can store something" 12:25:17 right ? 12:25:25 "any location" 12:25:27 i don't know what a "generalized variable" is 12:25:42 (defun row (matrix index) (lambda (i) (aref matrix i index ))) 12:25:50 he's probably talking about "places" 12:25:52 (defun column (matrix index) (lambda (i) (aref matrix index i))) 12:25:54 stassats`: generalized variable is just a location == place 12:25:55 yes 12:26:20 Well, then generate a couple of closures, or a closures taking a message argument. 12:26:22 egnarts-ms: but you can stop. there is no point in proving to us that common lisp is "inappropriate" 12:26:55 egnarts-ms: if you want to discuss how to implement your library, go ahead. if you want to discuss language purity, cl is not for you and this is not the place to complain. 12:27:46 -!- MrBusiness [~MrBusines@75-163-245-119.clsp.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:28:15 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 12:29:21 H4ns: what i want to discuss is this: has anybody had any ideas (or even some real implementations) about a concept of "random-indexed place" or "generalized random-access sequence" (these 2 are the same) ? 12:30:11 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:30:37 egnarts-ms: have you looked at christophe's sequences cdr? 12:30:41 you were given two ideas, one, extensible sequence, two, extensible accessors 12:31:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.169.138] has joined #lisp 12:31:08 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.169.138] has quit [Changing host] 12:31:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 12:31:34 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:31:41 (and the latter is portable) 12:32:33 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:32:50 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:33:03 pjb: closures is what i have actually chosen and implemented for this example 12:33:27 pjb: so my solution was almost like what you have just wrote 12:34:14 egnarts-ms: the important part is: (defun ref (ri index) (funcall ri index)) 12:34:44 so that you write: (ref (row matrix i) j) or (ref (column matrix j) i) 12:35:01 And you coan define a (setf ref). 12:36:19 yes, what i actually did is that: a structure containing 3 fields - accessor function, mutator function and the length (a number) 12:36:37 Yes. 12:36:49 Closures are equivalent to objects. 12:37:06 There are advantages of using objects: they're typed. 12:38:51 can anyone tell me more about the recursive-p parameter to READ-DELIMITED-LIST? 12:39:21 it's used from inside READ, e.g., by reader macros 12:39:26 wakeup: it's used to deal with ## #=. You need to pass T when you are calling read-delimited-list in a reader macro. 12:39:42 hmm I don't 12:39:49 I have a weird bug where it seems that read-delimited-list fails to consume the terminating CHAR (in SBCL) 12:39:57 but I#m not tooo sure yet 12:41:01 The terminating character may or may not be a terminating-macro character. 12:41:07 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:41:40 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 12:42:02 -!- pjb is now known as Guest45823 12:42:07 -!- prip [~foo@host207-24-dynamic.43-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:42:15 -!- Guest45823 is now known as pjb 12:42:40 pjb: but the question is that: is it possible to get rid of the runtime overhead of using closures, since we now the way of getting and setting at compile time ? 12:42:42 If it is not, then the last token probably aggregates it. 12:42:44 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 12:42:47 'a] --> A] 12:43:09 egnarts-ms: I'd expect a solution written with closure to be faster than one written using CLOS objects 12:43:18 alesguzik [~alesguzik@86.57.158.170] has joined #lisp 12:43:27 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 12:43:35 Use set-syntax-from-char to transfer the syntax from #\) to the delimiter you want. 12:44:28 -!- kilon_away is now known as kilon 12:44:34 Lisp compilers tend to be good at optimizing lambda forms. 12:45:56 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.65] has joined #lisp 12:47:05 what if one tries to implement smth like C++ template instantiations: there would be a separate function (automatically created) corresponding to each type of random-access ? 12:47:12 tensorpudding [~michael@108.87.19.80] has joined #lisp 12:47:17 (i know it sounds complicated) 12:47:36 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:48:27 so, for matrix rows, column, diagonals and smth else - 4 versions of a single function differing only in those pieces of code that read or store smth in a generalized random-access sequence 12:49:00 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:49:02 prip [~foo@host207-24-dynamic.43-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:49:44 Are the row and column functions above complicated? 12:50:05 no, obviously 12:50:54 do the accessors present a performance problem in your code? 12:51:34 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-121-223-197-249.lns3.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:53:12 heh I've customized my logger to insert *compile-file-truename* into the category, but realized for files reloaded with C-c C-c in slime, the file name is /tmp/randomname.. 12:53:31 :-) 12:53:38 egnarts-ms: In defining the random access object, you could keep a source sexp that you could use to combine and simplify in other expressions. 12:53:54 guess will have to modify slime to reuse original filename, and give it random extension instead 12:53:55 -!- anonus [anonymous@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:2cc7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:54:56 -!- Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:55:07 Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:48 anonus [anonymous@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:2cc7] has joined #lisp 12:59:25 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-koyphsdvbxmhyemd] has joined #lisp 12:59:35 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 12:59:44 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-koyphsdvbxmhyemd] has quit [Changing host] 12:59:44 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 12:59:51 -!- Xach has set mode -bbbb krl!*@* *!~ircap@*.rima-tde.net *!*moI@*.chatmosphere.org *!*john@212.251.245.* 12:59:54 -!- Xach has set mode -bbb *!*c72bb1fe@*.199.43.177.254 *!*@*.lsanca.fios.verizon.net *!~IceChat7@74.198.150.43 13:00:29 -!- Xach has set mode -bbbb *!*Mr@unaffiliated/mryaargh *!*PANZERKON@*.hfc.comcastbusiness.net *!*originals@*.demon.co.uk *!*nvironerd@strangled.me 13:00:33 -!- Xach has set mode -bbbb *!*Lotium@201.160.243.* *!~Blooop@2001:470:1f08:12e0::38db *!*john@*.202.34.95.customer.cdi.no *!~Rapeseed@201.160.242.164 13:00:39 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 13:01:38 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:02:37 hmm not as easy as I thought, its per-implementation with widely different code between them 13:02:44 guess I'll just do sbcl and ccl 13:03:08 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:03:57 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 13:05:30 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@host155.201-253-134.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 13:05:53 maxm-: it's implementation independent 13:06:16 ? I'm looking at swank-compile-string, this is where filename gets lost on sbcl 13:06:18 swank:compile-string-for-emacs has the file-name as the third parameter 13:06:37 then it calls swank-compile-string, which is per-impl 13:06:52 why do you care about swank-compile-string? 13:07:22 I want the forms evaluted with C-c C-c to have original *compile-file-truename* rather then /tmp/abcd123 13:07:23 just redefine swank:compile-string-for-emacs to bind that file-name to some variable which can later be used by your whatever it is you have there 13:07:29 rather the macros in that form 13:07:49 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@178.46.15.77] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:08:02 it won't do, as (compile-file "/tmp/abcdc123") will bind them to the temp file name 13:08:07 It's trivial: Surround the form in a let binding the special variable! 13:08:34 maxm-: it won't, compile-file doesn't know anything about "some variable" 13:09:04 its clhs required variable 13:09:08 unless I'm hugely mistaken 13:09:23 CLHS doesn't require "_some_ variables" 13:09:40 (swank-compile-string (format "(let ((*compile-file-pathname* \"%s\")) %s)" compile-file-pathname (buffer-substring start end))) 13:09:45 ah you mean introduce my own variable? 13:09:50 yes 13:09:51 -!- kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 13:10:14 yea that will work, i guess I was thinking more in terms of trying to mak a generic fix for slime, rather then a quick hack 13:10:27 Well,using let breaks toplevelness, so better just prefix the code with a (setf *compile-file-pathname* and truename). 13:10:38 there is already fix for lispworks, so i think someone else had same problem before 13:10:44 m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.66] has joined #lisp 13:10:49 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 13:12:52 i don't see that there's a fix for lispworks 13:13:58 *maxm-* was searching the mailing list found this, maybe its not related http://paste.lisp.org/display/128051 13:14:01 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:14:30 i meant in the source code of slime, not in some random paste 13:15:11 no I pasted the email from the list, as I don't have web link to the massage, then it shows up in daily changelog diff as accepted 13:15:54 but I guess its different, since its for dspec-file-position.. Kind of a similar problem tho 13:16:53 stassats`: are you interested in making a generic fix? or should I just do my hacky way? i'm doing this both for myself, and to provide customization example for log4cl 13:17:33 imho having C-c C-c evaluated form provide macros with environment that is as close as to when entire file is loaded would be a good thing 13:18:44 i just tested, and *compile-file-truename* on lispworks doesn't refer to the original file 13:18:56 maxm-: i'm not interested, because i see no way to implement it 13:19:16 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.66] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:19:27 except for what pjb suggested, but i don't really like it 13:20:04 In any case I'd object to using compile-file to compile parts, because this breaks the compilation unit. 13:20:21 C-c C-c isn't expected to create files at all 13:20:27 Either you compile the whole file with compile-file,or you just use compile. 13:20:31 yea I guess for these implementations that do (read-from-string) its possible to bind them, but for those that compile the temp file, the closest would be to make file /tmp/randdir/origfile.lisp or such 13:20:33 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-212-18.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:20:52 *maxm-* would be just as happy if slime simply added *swank-compile-truename* and bound it it in compile-string-for-emacs 13:21:19 maxm-: I tend to define my own variable, initialized differently in the different eval-when ccases. 13:21:19 I can then just do (or swank:*swank-compile-truename* *compile-file-truename* *load-truename*) 13:21:20 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:22:06 how do you override slime function with (setf definition) and "i did it already" flag? 13:23:12 zmyrgel` [~user@193.64.112.22] has joined #lisp 13:25:13 -!- zmyrgel [~user@193.64.112.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:26:33 jkantz [~jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:26:38 -!- zmyrgel` [~user@193.64.112.22] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:28:49 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.39] has joined #lisp 13:29:01 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-208.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 13:31:12 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.39] has quit [Client Quit] 13:31:47 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.39] has joined #lisp 13:33:42 cyrillos [~cyrill@swsoft-msk-nat.sw.ru] has joined #lisp 13:35:04 m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.66] has joined #lisp 13:35:57 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-170-253.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:36:15 -!- skalawag` is now known as skalawag 13:36:30 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-128-149.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:38:00 ok works good now, here is my solution: http://paste.lisp.org/display/128052 13:42:58 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.152.109] has joined #lisp 13:46:09 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 13:46:45 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128032110.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 13:50:15 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:52:46 bjonnh [~bjonnh@147.210.71.83] has joined #lisp 13:54:02 -!- egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@195.160.233.181] has quit [Quit: egnarts-ms] 14:01:50 hello! 14:02:00 yo mgr 14:03:43 cbp```` [~user@187.193.209.109] has joined #lisp 14:04:19 I'm just wondering about sbcl. A style-warning mentiones that my handler-bind gets translated to a typecase. The style-warning is that there are duplicate keys in the typecase forms. But in a handler-case there can be multiple handlers for the same type (as a handler can decline handling the condition). That doesn't seem to happen anymore with this translation (I didn't get that warning some two or three years ago with an sbcl of that time, I guess). 14:04:47 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-128-149.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:04:56 mgr: a handler-case can't decline handling the condition 14:05:04 mgr: a clause in handler-bind can 14:05:05 the clhs mentiones that the handler bindings are searched sequentially from top to bottom in search of a match (by visual analogy with typecase). 14:05:40 H4ns: yes, I'm talking about handler-bind not handler-case 14:06:04 oops, sorry. 14:06:18 and this is a HANDLER-BIND that gets translated to an TYPECASE. 14:06:33 right. i had a reading problem. 14:07:31 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-128-149.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:07:55 H4ns: mgr did mention handler-case 14:08:01 mgr: from what do you conclude that multiple identical type clauses in handler-bind should be allowed? i think the matching process and the handling of the condition are two separate things. 14:08:03 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@p33209-ipngn101aobadori.miyagi.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:08:07 hmm, ok, I rewrote the old code as (handler-bind (..) (handler-bind (..) (handler-bind (..) ...))) and it works again. 14:08:15 mgr: i just tried, and SBCL doesn't give me any warnings 14:08:47 H4ns: clhs on handler-case "If the handler declines, the search continues for another handler". and the other sentence already cited. 14:09:22 mgr: ok. 14:09:30 H4ns: and it is my good old file reader that good delivered in some applications for some industrial jobs. :) so it worked earlier. 14:09:49 and doesn't expand to typecase 14:09:57 mgr: are you using 1.0.6? 14:10:16 mgr: you mean clhs on handler-bind? 14:10:18 this is sbcl 1.0.55.3.mswinmt.1182-d7a1816, yes the windows port. I need recent opengl so windows :) 14:10:41 stassats`: argh, yes. handler-bind. who mentioned handler-case. grr ;) 14:11:14 mgr: that was you. 14:11:59 mgr: no warning on linux 1.0.55 either. 14:12:05 yes but only after your confusion ;). but well, actually that confusion is part of the spec I guess 14:12:08 can you paste the code? because i can't reproduce by just doing (handler-bind ((error #'print) (error #'print)) (+ 1 2)) 14:12:25 mgr: no. your original question contained handler-case and handler-bind, which confused me. 14:12:35 ZabaQ [~johnfredc@ip-89-176-173-114.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 14:12:40 -!- sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:12:48 mgr: but never mind. i see that you're confused. 14:13:06 -!- Neronus [christian@heraklit.ayous.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:13:39 rme [~rme@50.43.137.24] has joined #lisp 14:13:41 Neronus [christian@heraklit.ayous.org] has joined #lisp 14:14:02 H4ns: oh, then I'm sorry indeed 14:14:16 H4ns: yes, you'r right. my appologies. 14:14:35 -!- Skola_ [~bas@89.184.179.185] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:15:01 you have been demoted to medium-gerd 14:15:07 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 14:15:09 EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:18 http://paste.lisp.org/display/128053 14:15:31 Xach: hehe 14:15:51 I accept that punishment. 14:15:55 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:16:29 stickycake [~stickycak@cpe-69-203-115-155.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:16:30 RomyRomy [~stickycak@cpe-69-203-115-155.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:16:50 Hm, am I wrong to think that a handler-bind should not get translated to a typecase in this way? 14:17:49 mgr: i concur 14:17:58 mgr: I tend to agree with your interpretation 14:17:59 sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #lisp 14:18:32 it was changed in that windows port, complain to them 14:18:33 https://github.com/akovalenko/sbcl-win32-threads/commit/2389f00e518aa1775b08b3d586d5cfd9609d8f42 14:19:26 stassats`: ah, okay. thank you. 14:19:33 I'll do that. 14:19:35 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 14:19:49 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:20:00 For now I have my quick work-around. But that should get fixed. 14:20:07 make sure that david lichteblau knows 14:20:17 Thanks for your time and care. 14:20:28 just opening an issue should be enough, I imagine 14:20:37 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 14:21:12 H4ns: Oh, does he work on that port as well? 14:21:58 mgr: he does have some interest afaik 14:22:45 H4ns: I'm still a bit unhappy that I missed going to the berlin meeting when I had the chance some time ago. 14:22:58 mgr: can't help with that, really 14:23:58 CrLF0710 [~user@223.240.78.21] has joined #lisp 14:26:10 ^ :) 14:29:50 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:32:10 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:35:49 -!- icylisper [~icylisper@27.7.49.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:36:27 m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.66] has joined #lisp 14:38:05 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 14:39:51 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.237.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:39:54 zeroish [~zeroish@135.207.174.50] has joined #lisp 14:40:39 -!- ura [~ura@unaffiliated/ura] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:42:26 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 14:44:11 ok issue opened: https://github.com/akovalenko/sbcl-win32-threads/issues/18 14:44:33 better now than later... 14:45:26 in other news: modern open gl hacking works really well with sbcl on windows. I'm really pleased with it. 14:45:46 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ligjcoroymydvcpe] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:45:56 kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 14:46:03 mgr: screenshots or did not happen! 14:46:49 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:47:09 hrhr let me finish the object reader it isn't impressive at all right now. but first I had to get over that handler-bind problem. 14:47:49 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 14:49:28 -!- kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has quit [Client Quit] 14:50:15 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:50:21 ehu [~ehuels@109.38.11.73] has joined #lisp 14:50:50 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:46 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 14:53:01 kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 14:53:52 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 14:55:32 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:57:12 -!- Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:57:57 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 14:59:17 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 14:59:29 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 15:00:07 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.152.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:01:01 Froward [~uh-oh@206.231.99.110] has joined #lisp 15:02:28 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:02:35 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:03:02 ngz [~user@69.205.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:15 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 15:05:47 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:04 zophy [~zophy@host-5-150-220-24.midco.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:43 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:08:19 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 15:08:52 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:40 -!- zophy [~zophy@host-5-150-220-24.midco.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:11:33 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has joined #lisp 15:12:53 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:13:22 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 15:13:23 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:13:39 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 15:14:28 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:45 -!- kmcorbett [kmcorbett@clozure-9FE07BBF.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 15:17:59 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:18:04 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:18:40 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 15:22:14 icylisper [~icylisper@27.7.49.38] has joined #lisp 15:22:55 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:23:28 pnathan [~Adium@76.178.164.157] has joined #lisp 15:23:59 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 15:26:58 meh, just tested log4cl with inverted readtables 15:27:56 mgraham [~v0yager@173-8-81-129-BusName-tn.chatta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:28:08 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:28:39 yakov [~yakov@77.72.122.210] has joined #lisp 15:29:02 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 15:29:18 -!- kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 15:31:48 -!- mgraham [~v0yager@173-8-81-129-BusName-tn.chatta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:32:10 maxm-: "meh it just worked" or "meh why should i care about users who insist on messing up their environment"? 15:32:35 no, was very careful to have it working ,but still had 20 failures 15:32:53 no substitute for testing.. /me uses inverted readtable extensively myself in my qt stuff 15:33:11 who insist on being hip and modern? 15:33:13 *H4ns* does not get the meh, but then. 15:33:38 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:33:58 stassats`: ? 15:34:01 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 15:34:03 I have no idea why "meh" was in front there.. fingers fighting for independents from the brain and typing stuff on their own 15:34:11 maxm-: i recently made a setf macro which allows to do (setf (#_enabled x) t) instead of (#_setEnabled x t) 15:34:19 and i'm not really sure how to feel about it so far 15:34:31 sbryant: do you have a highlight on "hip and modern"? 15:34:50 just go full-monty... (x.setEnabled t) is my syntax 15:35:11 you'll thank yourself after noticing you now developing 3 times faster 15:35:21 jjkola [~jjkola@xdsl-83-150-83-66.nebulazone.fi] has joined #lisp 15:35:31 typing is not my bottleneck 15:35:36 -!- CrLF0710 [~user@223.240.78.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:35:51 stassats`: no, just started reading and your comment stood out 15:36:10 sbryant: it was in context of H4ns's message 15:36:29 ah 15:37:18 stassats`: its not the typing, I don't mind typing.. Its the readability of the code.. when you write actual code that does useful thing, you quickly get lost in the forest of (#_ (_#) (#_) when glancing at the line 15:37:40 MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-121-201.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:49 rvrebane [~rvrebane@valjapaas.vkhk.ee] has joined #lisp 15:38:15 i don't have much of that 15:38:24 maxm-: just because you get lost does not necessarily mean that someone else gets lost. it is more or less a matter of what one is used to. 15:38:29 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:39:19 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 15:39:24 to make code more readable and more easily write-able I introduced a number of abstractions using CLOS 15:40:01 *maxm-* not going to argue, as I already had similar conversation around 3 months ago when I just started with commonqt 15:40:14 -!- yakov [~yakov@77.72.122.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:40:22 so eventually my code won't have no #_ at all 15:40:39 and no dots 15:40:46 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-121-201.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:41:08 -!- gkeith_glaptop_ [~gkeith@74.125.122.49] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:41:17 when in rome, do as romans do. Qt object model pretty much assumes dotted syntax for accessing instance objects, as the object model is very nested 15:41:48 v0yager [~v0yager@173-8-81-129-BusName-tn.chatta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:09 my Rome is CL, not Qt 15:42:12 but yes, wrapping with your own abstraction also works, but Qt API is very large. So wrapping it with CLOS on your own is endless task. 15:42:34 everyone who ever tried to wrap Qt, had to write automatic tools to do it, hence the smokeqt and friends 15:42:35 my programs are not endless, i only wrap the things i need 15:43:00 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-128-149.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:43:25 and i invent a different API from Qt as needed, so automatic tools won't cut it 15:43:27 stassats`: btw there is a already different lib also based on smokeqt, which goes the full CLOS route.. it name escapes me at the moment 15:43:45 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:44:36 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 15:45:05 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-128-149.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:46:21 cl-smoke perhaps 15:48:47 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.131.180] has joined #lisp 15:48:54 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:48:56 yea that was it, cl-smoke.. I have not tried it, other then reading the readme, where author admitted its probably 10x slower then commonqt "hacky" approach 15:49:23 didn't it got basically discontinued? 15:49:25 most of my inverted readtable failures were just 1 place of converting the case twice.. all fixed now 15:49:51 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 15:51:25 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:53:03 is there any database of what code runs with "modern" mode ACL? 15:53:09 -!- anaumov [~anaumov@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:53:58 p_l: you mean like a list of libraries compatible with mlisp? 15:54:49 yes 15:55:11 also, iirc mlisp was basically running without upcasing, right? 15:55:17 that is, with :preserve? 15:55:20 preserve-case 15:56:10 I don't think there is such a list. And if there was, it may be a bit short. :) 15:56:13 p_l: not just that. It defines an entire :cl package with all the symbols downcased. 15:56:58 p_l: and my impression of ACL was that they just expect you to use their built-in libraries (which are often cribbed from open source projects, afaict) 15:57:01 sykopomp: ah. Will it fail with code that uses upper-case only symbols? 15:57:14 ... ah shucks, I can check 15:57:42 p_l: it fails in interesting ways. You won't be able to refer to :cl symbols using their uppercase version, though. 15:58:07 and the project will likely fail if its package stuff uses "STRING" for package/symbol names. 15:58:18 -!- pnathan [~Adium@76.178.164.157] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:58:59 the other biggest failure is systems that generate symbols (I think this was the issue with CXML) 15:59:23 ironclad is also notorious for that. 15:59:23 thats why everyone uses symbols.. You have to be careful about using ~A format with symbols 15:59:56 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@cpe-69-203-115-155.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: RomyRomy] 15:59:56 -!- stickycake [~stickycak@cpe-69-203-115-155.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: stickycake] 16:00:06 that was my problem, it prints it taking readtable into account.. You need to do (find-symbol (format "~A" (string symbol))) for it to work with inverted readtables 16:00:08 https://github.com/mcna has several libraries with fixes for modern mode. 16:00:13 There were only a few cases where actual code was written expecting the upcasing. 16:00:47 there was one library (I think CXML, again) that actually seemed to have just copy-pasted macroexpanded code into the source file or something, since all the symbols were upcased. 16:00:48 sysop_fb [~fb@108-66-160-34.lightspeed.spfdmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:43 sykopomp: pretty much everyone who makes symbols on the fly with "~A-Of" has it wrong.. You need to do "~A-~A" (string slot-name) (string '#:of) 16:01:51 ~A-OF i meant 16:02:04 for it to be readtable case agnostic 16:02:11 maxm-: and why do you need the calls to string? 16:02:16 maxm-: Pretty much everyone who makes symbols that look like ~A-OF should probably not be doing that. 16:02:33 H4ns: because printing symbols with ~A will print them in lower case, when readtable is inverted 16:02:34 imnsho 16:02:59 how does string fix that? 16:03:02 #'string* 16:03:06 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:03:26 it returns symbol-name, which will be upper-case 16:03:37 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:03:41 it is these intricacies that made me give up on modern mode 16:03:50 but with active readtable-case :invert, ~A of symbol directly will print it as lower-case, passing that to make-symbol will make you a lower-case symbol 16:04:34 H4ns: interop is pretty much the only reason I would ever be interested in modern mode, and I think there's less-than-perfect-but-good-enough solutions to that. 16:04:38 antgreen [~user@c74-230.rim.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:52 sykopomp: my thought, exactly 16:05:16 its just a case of converting it twice.. Think, when you type 'symbol, its already converted to upper case by the read operation. So you need to use (symbol-name) or (string) to get its native name. ~A format intends to be human readable, so it prints it as 'symbol (in lower case) if your readtable is inverted 16:05:23 what is mordern mode? 16:05:35 and the fact is, even in those cases where you do interop, you want to do further conversion anyway to make it lispier, so it's kind of a moot point. 16:05:37 err modern* 16:05:41 it works great if you just take above into the account 16:06:02 *maxm-* had surprisingly few problems with having his entire system using inverted readtables 16:06:28 which I need for (x.layout.setBlah whatever) syntax for qt calls 16:06:31 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:33 Even if I were able to do (defcfun gl_get_error ...), I'd still want to define a wrapper function called get-error in the gl: package. 16:07:05 -!- blandest [~blandest@ip4-85-204-33-242.euroweb.ro] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:07:34 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:07:47 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:07:48 maxm-: I believe CCL has a Good Enough solution to that, honestly, with its ObjC interop 16:08:22 they just have a reader macro that *is* case-preserving (and probably converts things into valid foreign calls, too) 16:08:54 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 16:09:01 (#qt!x.layout.setBlah whatever) 16:10:40 yeah, I think I'll add a read macro that will be case preserving for the whole form or something like that 16:11:13 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:11:34 especially since the examples they have for the *why* of modern mode is exactly what I'm dealing with 16:11:45 (¡x.layout.setBlah! ...) 16:12:38 can't do it with that, because you have to get the args 16:12:57 and there is always #|setBlah| which requires no reader smartness or anything 16:13:20 *Xach* gets unbalanced comment fever 16:13:22 H4ns: not with #|, though 16:13:40 ie (#q!a.b arg) has to expand into ((qt-call a "b") arg) 16:13:45 oh yeah, 16:13:47 not even # 16:14:10 -!- kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@xdsl-87-79-49-51.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:14:26 the question really is who you're willing to alienate, lispers or the people who wrote or are used to the foreign libraries that you are using. 16:14:26 unless you saying to read the space and then continue reading until next peeked char is close parenthesis. 16:14:39 kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@xdsl-87-79-166-137.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:14:46 maxm-: ((lambda (arg) ...) arg) 16:15:29 i'd say that all attempts of the past by lispers to appease non-lispers through adopting their habits have basically failed. 16:16:00 actually, the reasoning was completely unrelated to appealing to no-lispers 16:16:13 p_l: might be. 16:16:26 p_l: at least i'm not talking about relational database optimizations :D 16:16:47 it was related to mangling necessary between external symbols that were case-sensitive and CL 16:17:05 (the case in question being AllegroGraph) 16:17:24 p_l: wasn't it for Java interop at first? 16:17:41 speaking of relational database optimizations. Someone recently suggested taking postmodern and using event-based async sockets for its queries. 16:17:47 Xach: weird I had not immediately thought up of that, I'll see if this can handle multiple stuff, as its mostly (a.b.c.d stuff) that expend to a lot of nested calls 16:17:47 jdz: no idea, and frankly speaking I don't really care about Java interop 16:18:03 *sykopomp* is curious as to how programming using pomo would work if you had to specify a callback to each query. 16:18:10 sykopomp: umm... doesn't seem very useful 16:18:21 maxm-: i am always interested in legitimate uses of ((lambda (...) ...) ...) 16:18:27 this seems like a possibility 16:18:33 cause you can'[t run multiple transactions on single socket in postgres, iirc 16:18:39 p_l: Yeah, I'm not sure how useful it would be, except it would allow you to have a ton of database connections without blocking. 16:18:58 p_l: that's the thing, you'd open as many sockets as you need/want. Or something like that. 16:19:07 postgres can also send async notifications on various events 16:19:22 Xach: postmodern does not have support for that, yet (as far as i know) 16:19:23 i had a primitive patch for it but couldn't bring it up to snuff 16:20:03 sykopomp: also, you cannot have transactions across connections, right? 16:20:09 http://www.mail-archive.com/postmodern-devel@common-lisp.net/msg00302.html 16:20:30 rukubite` [~user@d58-111-174-244.meb802.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 16:20:38 Xach: aha, how would reader expanding into lambda know how many args it has? 16:20:39 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:20:48 maxm-: &rest args 16:20:49 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:20:58 jdz: I don't know. 16:21:02 Xach: any progress on that patch? 16:21:06 jdz: no 16:21:29 I can't remember why I got sidetracked 16:22:10 Well we getting into complicated situation here because: real examplse of me macroexpanding (with-qt (a.b.c arg1 arg2)) => (progn (optimized-call t (optimized-call t a "b") "c" arg1 arg2)) 16:22:13 *Xach* notes he spelled "asynchronous" wrong 16:22:15 if you want to keep waiting, you need to use threads, iirc. 16:22:30 but each optimized-call is itself commonqt macro, that expands into half a page of stuff 16:22:32 and compensate for things accordingly. 16:23:30 yeah, probably the whole model of how postgresql works needs to be changed in the presence of async notifications (well, if one wants to receive them when they actually happen, not when executing the next command) 16:23:38 and expanding those, I see it referencing arg1 and arg2 16:23:45 so not sure replacing them with &rest will work 16:23:52 Oh well 16:23:57 s/postgresql/postmodern 16:24:16 -!- rukubites [~user@d58-111-177-142.meb802.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:24:38 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 16:25:25 -!- alesguzik [~alesguzik@86.57.158.170] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:25:35 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.66] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:25:35 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [] 16:26:04 anyway, I'm happy with my dot syntax. Let ivory towerist fume, while I'll write code 16:26:29 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@214-106-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:26:56 m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.66] has joined #lisp 16:27:15 that's the spirit, insult people who don't like your ideas. 16:27:54 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-208.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:27:55 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@122.179.156.126] has joined #lisp 16:27:57 and there's the difference of not liking or just pointing out technical problems 16:28:38 no insult intended, just saying "i'm happy with the way I've done it" and find your arguments unpersuasive 16:28:56 you welcome to do it your own way, thats the beauty of lisp 16:29:31 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 16:29:44 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-128-113.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 16:31:00 nepnux [~wildnux@69.199.88.19] has joined #lisp 16:31:57 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:33:04 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:33:29 -!- Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:33:52 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-383555.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:37:19 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.233.110] has joined #lisp 16:37:29 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:38:29 -!- Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:39:09 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.39] has joined #lisp 16:40:18 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-208.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 16:40:22 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 16:44:38 -!- ASau [~user@176.14.69.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:44:39 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:44:46 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:45:38 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 16:46:37 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 16:49:05 kpreid_ [~kpreid@128.153.214.241] has joined #lisp 16:50:01 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:50:41 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 16:51:16 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-35-55-23.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:47 dekuked [~k@pool-108-7-203-109.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:22 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-128-149.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:53:01 sykopomp: commonqt uses the same solution as CCL does for FFI 16:53:07 francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has joined #lisp 16:53:21 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 16:53:23 nice :) 16:53:45 (#_setQThingy ...) 16:53:52 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:53:54 -!- kpreid_ [~kpreid@128.153.214.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:54:17 I had a bug in the program (actually the data had a bad symbol) but couldn't find it expect with CLISP backtrace and stepper.... in sbcl I wasted almost all day and couldn't detect it 16:54:18 Odin- [~sbkhh@214-106-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is] has joined #lisp 16:54:57 that means you can't debug 16:55:07 francogrex: you mean s/expect/except/ ! 16:55:18 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:55:44 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 16:55:45 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 16:55:47 And yes, clisp debugger is easier to use than sbcl's. 16:56:03 yes sorry except 16:56:35 -!- Kyril_ [~Kyril@75-119-248-140.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:56:53 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.179.221] has joined #lisp 16:57:16 pjb even simpler than that the rror I got : *** - <: 0NIL13 is not a real number 16:57:39 and what error did SBCL give you? 16:57:42 then :w EVAL frame for form (< (NTH 3 I) 30) and I typed I and knew exactly where the bad data was 16:57:44 Time to change your password. 16:57:51 -!- nepnux [~wildnux@69.199.88.19] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:58:36 you know that you can do that with the SBCL debugger, don't you? 16:58:45 provided that you bump your debug settings 16:59:09 stassats`: sbcl gave me the same: 0NIL13 is not a real number, but when I asked show me the local variables (L) I had no info! 16:59:29 did you increase DEBUG? 16:59:55 yes to 3 I swear 17:00:04 even failing that, couldn't you just insert a PRINT statement? 17:00:05 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:00:32 wait, what debugging tools are specific to sbcl/clisp/ccl? I thought most people just used slime for debugging... 17:01:00 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 17:01:01 sbcl/clisp/ccl debuggers are specific to sbcl/clisp/ccl 17:01:20 and you can't use slime for debugging with Clisp, really 17:01:32 stassats`: I could have inserted a print indeed 17:01:41 clisp doesn't provide any hooks into its debugger, so its slime interface sucks 17:02:05 wildnux [~wildnux@69.199.88.19] has joined #lisp 17:03:24 which one has the best debugger? and what do you mean exactly when you say "debugger"? I was trying to google the closure one, and all I found were links to debugging ccl using gdb. maybe my google-fu just sucks today. 17:03:30 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 17:04:06 inspecting the local variables in sbcl gives me this: SB-DEBUG::ARG-0 = 0NIL13 SB-DEBUG::ARG-1 = 30 17:04:22 dekuked: pjb will say "clisp has the best one" 17:04:51 doesn't make me know better, while the :w in clisp takes me exactly to the line and allows me to inspect even the locally bount i in (nth i x) ... 17:05:08 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:05:14 francogrex: you should really use Slime to debug in SBCL 17:05:32 I will try slime then with sbcl 17:05:40 now glad the error is found 17:05:59 and compile your code with C-u C-c C-c 17:06:05 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 17:06:13 so have I been unknowingly using the debugger via slime? I don't get how I could use it, and I'm wondering if it's one of those automated things that I haven't properly investigated 17:06:52 debugger is a thing which show you backtraces, allows you to inspect variables, restart frames and select restarts 17:08:07 so it's what slime has been automatically leveraging for me? 17:08:19 -!- Froward [~uh-oh@206.231.99.110] has quit [Quit: even in laughter, the heart of Snorlax is sorrowful. and the end of that mirth is heaviness.] 17:08:28 i don't know what you mean by "automatically leveraging" 17:08:56 *maxm-* pushed log4cl example on including filenames in categories.. So one can have (log:config (package file) :debug) to turn stuff on/off per file 17:09:03 Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 17:10:40 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:11:19 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 17:12:13 stassats`: well inspecting variables, restarting frames and selecting restarts sound sort of like the things I've been doing already with slime, I think. Or maybe not. 17:12:20 dekuked: "yes" 17:12:43 slime sometimes does not have all local variables in the frame, even with (debug 3) 17:12:49 sbcl I meant not slime 17:13:22 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 17:14:40 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:16:23 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 17:16:30 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-121-201.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:24 dekuked: then yes, but _you_ do it, slime doesn't do it automatically, you would be doing the same things without slime 17:18:18 stassats`: ah, okay. thank you for clarifying. 17:18:56 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-121-201.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:20:42 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:21:46 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 17:22:46 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:23:12 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:23:20 maxm-: yes that's what I see, doesn't have all locals 17:23:39 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-208.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:24:21 it usually has most of the locals, but not having them is not the reason to waste half of the day 17:25:05 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@69.199.88.19] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 17:25:40 s/the reason/a reason/ 17:26:13 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 17:26:16 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:48 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 17:28:40 SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:58 -!- SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:30:59 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:31:58 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 17:32:03 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 17:32:18 kellogs_eater [4f73ac5c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.115.172.92] has joined #lisp 17:32:23 Much better to spend half a day choosing the name of your new project 17:32:24 Morning folks! 17:32:28 admittedly I could have used print 17:32:39 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-xfkctudbfftqnnmo] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:32:41 It's not about lisp, it's just algorithmics, but I need help. 17:32:53 Can anyone help me? :-) 17:32:59 kellogs_eater: so many words 17:33:07 wait, let me read your mind first 17:33:19 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@p33209-ipngn101aobadori.miyagi.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:33:35 I can sense the algorithm problem so yes probably I will be able to help you 17:33:43 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@p33209-ipngn101aobadori.miyagi.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:33:45 ^^ 17:33:56 kellogs_eater: use brute force 17:34:09 So.. I'm working for the upcoming olympiad, and for getting maximum pointage, I need to use Binary Search instead of brute force. 17:34:26 I will start a project called StrawberryQuicklisp, which will be a sweet GUI. Good idea right guys? Guys? 17:34:51 But it's not finding the element equal to x, but the biggest element that's lower than x. 17:34:54 stassats is a real mind reader 17:35:14 Here is my implementation in C for it, but it doesn't work: http://pastie.org/private/agknqkxizeajvy5bmlmgfa 17:35:27 rewrite it in lisp, then we might talk 17:35:34 stassats` has the right of it 17:35:36 kellogs_eater: so. you came to #lisp to help us debug your c program? 17:35:38 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-128-149.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:35:39 I don't even know lisp. 17:35:43 Well.. you know.. 17:35:46 kellogs_eater: Now's a good time to learn. 17:35:56 kellogs_eater: then, you know, go to a channel that supports c maybe? 17:36:02 the olympic rings resemble parentheses 17:36:03 I am not registered to freenode, and lisp was the first channel to let me in. 17:36:08 the best time to learn lisp is 20 years ago, the second best time is now 17:36:16 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:36:25 or simply programming in general since it's algorithm 17:37:08 The guys on #programming just diverged from the subject and nothing else. 17:37:12 however it seems language related so go to ##c 17:37:23 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 17:37:33 kellogs_eater: so maybe you need to, say, read a book? talk to your ta? 17:37:45 fck 17:37:50 I'll go away. 17:37:55 Bye bye. 17:37:58 :-s 17:37:59 not away, go yo C 17:38:00 -!- icylisper [~icylisper@27.7.49.38] has quit [Quit: icylisper] 17:38:01 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@p33209-ipngn101aobadori.miyagi.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:38:04 -!- kellogs_eater [4f73ac5c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.115.172.92] has left #lisp 17:38:19 hmm. useful contribution. 17:38:27 that was weird 17:38:38 francogrex, Did I tell you that your nick reminds me of "graded reverse lexicographical monomial order" or grevlex 17:39:13 I'm flattered... or am I? 17:39:16 ;) 17:40:33 -!- francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:40:59 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:41:12 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-128-149.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:41:36 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 17:42:25 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 17:44:15 Cosman246 [~user@D-173-250-202-38.dhcp4.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 17:44:22 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:45:28 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.38.11.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:45:38 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.179.221] has quit [Quit: Offline] 17:45:40 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:45:45 wildnux [~wildnux@69.199.88.19] has joined #lisp 17:46:31 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:47:31 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 17:47:36 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:36 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:47:36 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:47:47 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-208.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 17:47:52 -!- Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:49:08 osa1 [~sinan@31.140.14.36] has joined #lisp 17:50:09 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:51:16 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.179.221] has joined #lisp 17:51:37 Kron [~Kron@129-97-120-208.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 17:52:24 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:52:38 rpg_ [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 17:52:47 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 17:54:19 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-208.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:56:06 -!- osa1 [~sinan@31.140.14.36] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 17:56:45 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:56:55 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:57:50 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 17:59:41 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@host155.201-253-134.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:00:22 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:02:25 -!- djuber [~user@c-76-16-60-176.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:02:37 djuber [~user@c-76-16-60-176.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:51 vairav [~vairav@209.49.23.82] has joined #lisp 18:02:51 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 18:02:58 the best way to get slime is via cvs, right? 18:03:07 quicklisp is a good way too 18:04:26 quicklisp does that too? awesome! 18:04:39 naeg_ [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 18:05:01 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:05:03 kilon_alios [~kilon@athedsl-383955.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 18:06:00 (ql:quickload "quicklisp-slime-helper") and follow the directions 18:06:39 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@swsoft-msk-nat.sw.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:07:15 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:07:15 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-240-59.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:07:24 -!- naeg_ [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Client Quit] 18:07:30 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 18:07:42 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-383555.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:07:53 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 18:08:51 -!- djuber [~user@c-76-16-60-176.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:09:34 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@122.179.156.126] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:09:39 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@69.199.88.19] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 18:09:45 wildnux [~wildnux@69.199.88.19] has joined #lisp 18:10:32 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:10:58 -!- Patzy [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:11:14 Patzy [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:57 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 18:17:45 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:18:34 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 18:18:39 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #lisp 18:19:24 -!- TheMue [~TheMue@pC19F63F5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: TheMue] 18:19:30 -!- SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:20:47 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 18:21:40 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.65] has joined #lisp 18:22:09 jonathans [~jonathans@209.240.46.49] has joined #lisp 18:22:40 -!- jonathans is now known as Guest22333 18:23:10 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:23:48 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 18:23:55 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:25:20 -!- rvrebane [~rvrebane@valjapaas.vkhk.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:25:33 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:27:34 -!- Kron [~Kron@129-97-120-208.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:27:55 does sbcl has any hooks for save-image-and-die that I can hook up in log4cl and stop the autoflusher thread? 18:28:21 coz apparently it complains about extra thread being in there 18:28:50 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 18:29:01 symm- [~symm-@178.168.29.31] has joined #lisp 18:29:40 You can push a function on sb-ext:*save-hooks* (I think that's the name). 18:29:44 ah cool 18:29:50 you can just stop it before you call save-image-and-die 18:30:10 ccl has ccl:*save-exit-functions* 18:30:24 well its not me, but user who complains, I told him how to stop it, but I thought would be nice if library did it itself if it was possible 18:30:38 great 18:30:57 actually this reminded me I did not really tested it with save-retore image 18:31:51 maxm-: do you start the thread when the system is loaded or when it is first used? 18:32:08 -!- ngz [~user@69.205.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:33:04 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:33:39 when its first used, but since I do (log:config :sane :info) when my system is loaded to provide for default configuration, its same as if when loaded I guess 18:33:52 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 18:33:57 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.170.206] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:34:05 maxm-: i'd try to avoid starting threads on system load time in any case. 18:34:48 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:36:10 H4ns: well its a choice between a) do not provide default configuration, so users have to do (log:config :sane) themself. b) make default config use :immediate-flush t, which does not need background thread, but is much slower with large amount of stuff logged 18:36:37 or c) change design so that thread is started on first message, not on appender creation, but it seems like a big change for kind of a small benefit 18:37:09 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:37:34 maybe I'll do default config if I can detect its interactive use.. Would (find-package :swank) be a good indicator I wonder 18:37:43 maxm-: no 18:37:53 -!- bjonnh [~bjonnh@147.210.71.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:38:02 maxm-: i often load swank into my dumped images 18:38:39 so how does swank do it, it has its own auto-flush thread does'nt it? and its started automatically I think 18:38:40 TheMue [~TheMue@pC19F63F5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:51 -!- Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:38:55 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 18:39:01 maxm-: it does not start anything when it is loaded. 18:39:07 cabaire [~nobody@p54940C86.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:39:10 gonna check when it starts it 18:39:51 'b' rather seems reasonable to me... 18:40:00 osa1 [~sinan@31.140.20.130] has joined #lisp 18:40:26 vantage|home [~vantage@110.62-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 18:40:28 m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.66] has joined #lisp 18:40:28 i agree 18:41:01 ok I'll do b) then I guess 18:41:08 gary-s [~gary@190.152.94.14] has joined #lisp 18:41:22 -!- gary-s [~gary@190.152.94.14] has quit [Client Quit] 18:41:24 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:41:25 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@110.62-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has left #lisp 18:43:04 -!- Guest22333 [~jonathans@209.240.46.49] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 18:44:02 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 18:48:15 beaumonta [~abeaumont@31.4.116.138] has joined #lisp 18:48:24 -!- beaumonta [~abeaumont@31.4.116.138] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:48:47 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:49:21 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 18:49:49 -!- cabaire [~nobody@p54940C86.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:50:13 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:50:28 cabaire [~nobody@p54940C86.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:51:51 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:54:20 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 18:54:29 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.179.221] has quit [Quit: Offline] 18:56:30 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:58:11 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:59:25 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 19:00:35 -!- rpg_ [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Quit: rpg_] 19:01:18 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 19:01:36 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:03:30 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-208.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 19:04:13 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.62.127] has joined #lisp 19:04:29 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 19:04:41 leoncamel [~user@KD175129170046.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 19:05:06 sigi-ntb [~sigi@host-213-189-171-252.brutele.be] has joined #lisp 19:05:30 -!- blackwol` is now known as blackwolf 19:05:44 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-128-149.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:05:49 -!- TheMue [~TheMue@pC19F63F5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:05:51 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-50-021.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:06:52 all done, no longer start any threads on loading 19:08:54 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:09:23 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 19:09:39 -!- mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:09:51 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 19:11:51 xjrn [~chatzilla@c-67-174-244-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:54 so @SmugLisp_Borat exists on twitter 19:12:00 so far, hasn't made me laugh yet )-: 19:12:19 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:13:23 Ralith [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:26 I somehow typoed twitter and ended up on some weird page 19:13:40 Some survey thing dressed up to have a Twitter-themed background 19:14:20 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:14:27 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 19:15:14 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 19:15:18 ASau [~user@95-24-144-7.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 19:18:28 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 19:19:41 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:20:18 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 19:21:07 for those interested in data mining, seems interesting book http://www.cs.cornell.edu/home/kleinber/networks-book/networks-book.pdf 19:24:46 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:25:44 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 19:26:36 nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:45 -!- osa1 [~sinan@31.140.20.130] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 19:27:38 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.131.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:28:53 -!- benny [~benny@i577A2228.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:30:01 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:30:20 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:31:01 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 19:34:13 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:36:07 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 19:36:08 -!- housel [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:36:33 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:36:46 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128032110.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:37:32 benny [~benny@i577A3A91.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:38:26 -!- ZabaQ [~johnfredc@ip-89-176-173-114.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:38:37 -!- snorble_ [~snorble@c193-14-18-68.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: snorble_] 19:39:10 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.235.212] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:40:30 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:41:11 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 19:41:53 is there an easy way to make a lisp interpreter/compiler sandboxed? so that the script cannot influence any other scripts, except the ones which it loads, and to prevent any touching of the disk or inspection of other memory locations? 19:42:18 dekuked: no. it is pretty hard to do that. 19:42:35 well 19:42:50 you could use a VM for each lisp runtime :) 19:42:54 snorble_ [~snorble@c193-14-18-68.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 19:43:11 antifuchs: lol the russian guy I follow just tweeted (translated): "Yes I have no problem in working on it for free. My working for free rate is $30/hour" 19:43:46 the anti-lisp borat guy just repeats the "silly parethesis" and other stuff periodically, hes a troal 19:44:41 dekuked: chkrooted and jailed process will be the only way 19:45:17 but still you'll be in danger of un-disclosed local root exploits, which I'm sure exists in their hundreds 19:45:28 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:45:55 dekuked: it is certainly possible and relatively easy to create a subset of common lisp that can be sand boed. 19:45:57 boxed 19:46:10 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 19:46:15 dekuked: but full common lisp is a "no" 19:46:33 h4ns: how much of a subset? 19:46:54 dekuked: what do you want me to respond with? a percentage? 19:47:00 Funny how this keeps appearing. C's sandbox-by-default model messing things up? 19:47:09 h4ns: ideally 19:47:28 dekuked: sorry, it would not make sense. 19:47:47 dekuked: the subset would not be large enough to run most cl libraries that exist. 19:48:00 dekuked: a bytecoded implementation designed from scratch for that could do it 19:48:24 -bytecoded 19:48:39 it was not a design consideration for any of the major implementations, though 19:48:41 hm, maybe one could sandbox abcl 19:49:10 H4ns: it wouldn't be much different from using OS sandboxing, I believe 19:49:31 right. anyway. the answer is "no". please move on. nothing to see here. 19:49:35 :) 19:49:52 it would be easier to modify clisp than to prevent abcl from reaching out to os facilities in java. 19:50:08 p_l: Would any form of sandboxing allow anything much different from letting the OS do it? 19:50:10 compile clisp using emscripten, run in a browser 19:50:40 Odin-: theoretically yes 19:50:52 osa1 [~sinan@31.140.20.130] has joined #lisp 19:50:55 Hm. How so? 19:50:57 depends how fine grained you want it to be 19:51:04 Mmm. True. 19:51:08 p_l: so are you saying that creating a sandbox for common lisp as a whole is possible? 19:51:13 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:51:29 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 19:51:45 dekuked: with special support from implementation. LOTS of special support. It's just that such functionality would be outside the spec of language 19:51:48 You'd need to reach into non-exposed parts of the implementation to do it. 19:52:43 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has joined #lisp 19:52:53 p_l: It just strikes me that most of the implementation support for it would basically be implementing an OS... 19:53:10 this sandboxing question is coming up rather a lot lately. 19:53:16 -!- antgreen [~user@c74-230.rim.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:53:29 Fade: The real question is 'why?' 19:53:43 well, that's definitely the question I was implying. 19:54:44 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:54:51 anyhow using mandatory access control like SELinux and a thorough enough policy, it's possible from the OS, but I have no idea why you'd want to do it. 19:55:05 *Odin-* suspects it's related to an influx of people deeply used to the C/Unix process model. 19:55:10 most of javascript's nuanced bullshit seems to emanate from just that problem. 19:55:11 afk 19:55:21 "Well, I have several C programs, and they can't influence each other." 19:55:50 dekuked: what are you actually trying to achieve? why do you ask? 19:56:00 I was talking to someone about this the other day actually - the C world conflates the idea of preventing non-malicious users from screwing up and the idea of preventing malicious users from doing bad things 19:56:31 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 19:56:44 if you take a discrete lisp image as the granule of comparison with the unix process the answers become pretty obvious. 19:57:48 Is there a list of famous projects with Lisp roots/prototypes? Just curious. (e.g. postgres, original JS interpreter, etc) 19:58:09 h4ns: nothing in particular, and I barely know cl. just curious. 19:58:17 df_: The funny bit, IM(A)O is that C did that by accident, not by design. And now there's people who consider it a valuable feature over Lisp or similar. 19:58:36 dekuked: ok. for that matter, your answer is "no". 19:59:13 redline6561: I don't think there is a list in any one place. Franz's "success stories", kind of, but not quite. 19:59:33 Sure. I had a feeling that was the case. Thanks Xach. 19:59:44 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:00:34 postgres, javascript, haskell, prolog, smalltalk, autocad, ITA, viaweb, jax and daxter 20:00:48 h4ns: well, in all honesty I had a bit of a crazy idea. I kind of wanted to create a new browser, steal v8, and include some bastardized form of cl running in pnacl via ecl and clang for evaluating *.vlisp files on the net. 20:00:52 the actual list is quite long, but the public list is well known 20:00:57 and shorter 20:01:30 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 20:01:34 the pepper networking api is just too tempting... 20:01:56 but I barely know how to code, and I can barely comprehend how to start something such as that 20:02:05 ... why? 20:02:19 dekuked: smaller steps may lead to a better question. :) 20:02:43 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@69.199.88.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:03:09 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:03:33 but V8 is already sandboxed, so you could look at porting shen to v8 and bootstrapping Qi with that. 20:03:34 Odin: because I think it's sad that js, html and css are what developers are reduced to using when it comes to browers. I also think that dectranlized/arbitrary networking connections should be enabled in every browser. 20:03:50 decentralized* 20:04:04 "reduced to"? 20:04:15 wildnux [~wildnux@69.199.88.19] has joined #lisp 20:04:18 Sheesh, if you want to use something else, _don't use a browser_. 20:04:21 dekuked: you may want to start off with coding something sizeable in lisp first. 20:04:26 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@69.199.88.19] has quit [Client Quit] 20:04:38 wildnux [~wildnux@69.199.88.19] has joined #lisp 20:04:41 did I mention emscripten? :D 20:05:43 h4ns: haha, yes I'm quite aware of how ludicrous it is to start that. but I do like thinking about it every now and then. 20:06:16 -!- cbp```` [~user@187.193.209.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:06:41 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 20:07:37 dekuked: If you think big enough, you never have to do it. 20:09:54 Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 20:11:44 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:12:00 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 20:12:24 -!- sigi-ntb [~sigi@host-213-189-171-252.brutele.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:14:00 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:17:03 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 20:20:13 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-43-130.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 20:22:06 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:22:12 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 20:22:23 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 20:24:08 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 20:26:17 sigi-ntb_ [~sigi@81.201.60.31] has joined #lisp 20:26:43 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:26:47 -!- sigi-ntb_ [~sigi@81.201.60.31] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:27:17 sigi-ntb_ [~sigi@81.201.60.31] has joined #lisp 20:27:41 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 20:27:56 -!- sigi-ntb_ [~sigi@81.201.60.31] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:27:57 -!- kilon_alios is now known as kilon 20:28:27 sigi-ntb_ [~sigi@81.201.60.31] has joined #lisp 20:28:58 -!- sigi-ntb_ [~sigi@81.201.60.31] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:29:22 sigi-ntb_ [~sigi@81.201.60.31] has joined #lisp 20:31:17 does a return-from in the implicit block created by labels unwind to the topmost named block when recursing? 20:31:52 yes 20:32:08 TDT [~user@bouncer.eng.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 20:32:10 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:32:11 oh, implicit, no 20:32:35 labels are no different than ordinary functions 20:32:41 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 20:32:59 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:34:36 mon_key: each function records its own scope when recursing. the RETURN-FROM in that function returns to its own recursion level, if that's what you mean. 20:35:11 (defun foo () (labels ((bar () (return-from foo))))) will unwind, though 20:36:52 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:37:59 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@gray-51.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 20:37:59 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@gray-51.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has quit [Changing host] 20:37:59 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 20:38:01 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 20:38:51 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:39:03 -!- symm- [~symm-@178.168.29.31] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:39:17 FWIW it appears to work: http://paste.lisp.org/display/128060 20:39:17 -!- sigi-ntb_ [~sigi@81.201.60.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:39:17 kpreid_ [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has joined #lisp 20:39:18 -!- kpreid_ is now known as kpreid 20:39:27 symm- [~symm-@178.168.29.31] has joined #lisp 20:40:04 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:40:20 nm that doesn't work 20:40:25 that's some crazy code 20:41:39 indeed. 20:41:57 triple crazy 20:42:26 what do you really want to do? strip -_ and whitespaces from a string? 20:42:28 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:43:14 why not just do (string-trim '(#\- #\_ #\Space #\...) string) then? 20:43:23 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 20:43:27 yeah mostly -- i'm going over board. 20:44:14 whoa!! did you guys see this http://pretty-lisp.org/ ? 20:44:39 Yes 20:45:06 someone trying knows to make lisp better? thanks, but no thanks 20:45:12 osa1: it doesn't look very interesting 20:45:12 how 20:45:16 mon_key: (remove-if (lambda (c) (member c '(#\- #\_ #\Space))) "hello wor-ld") 20:45:19 stassats`: there is this though: (string-trim '(#\- #\_ #\ #\Newline) nil) 20:45:40 mon_key: if you want to remove all instances. string-trim only works on the beginning and the end. 20:45:41 don't pass NIL to it 20:45:47 at least the rectangles are rounded 20:45:52 stassats`: looks like just an editor. 20:45:57 H4ns: thanks that works fine 20:46:21 -!- saschakb__ [~saschakb@p4FEA01A2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:46:38 so you want to remove any of the aforementioned characters from the string? 20:47:41 -!- otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:47:56 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5081D51B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:10 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:48:25 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:48:44 sykopomp: i'll rephrase "someone trying to make lisp look better?" 20:48:44 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 20:49:08 ah, yes :) It's pretty funny. 20:49:20 "Problems with Parens? Replace parens with SVG!" 20:49:40 i bet the author didn't try to write anything in lisp 20:49:48 -!- Cosman246 [~user@D-173-250-202-38.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:49:50 the use case is to create a string with a timestamp for use with name key to make-pathname. I have a function with two keywords prefix and suffix. I wan't to strip all leading/trailing whitespace underscore and dash chars prior to concatenating the suffix, prefix, or both. I know how to do it, but was trying to be clever... 20:49:51 to know how much pain that thing would cause 20:50:01 zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:54 mon_key: if the code you pasted is clever, then i don't want do see normal code 20:51:21 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:51:50 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:52:05 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 20:52:27 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:52:55 sigi-ntb_ [~sigi@host-213-189-171-252.brutele.be] has joined #lisp 20:52:57 stassats`: it isn't 20:53:47 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 20:55:25 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:58:08 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:58:33 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 20:59:06 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 20:59:33 -!- TDT [~user@bouncer.eng.uiowa.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:59:42 pwd 20:59:45 aeh 20:59:57 H4ns: no such file or directory 21:02:27 -!- snorble_ [~snorble@c193-14-18-68.cust.tele2.se] has left #lisp 21:02:33 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:04:09 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 21:04:15 otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has joined #lisp 21:05:10 -!- austinh [~austin@c-24-21-49-222.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:05:26 austinh [~austin@c-24-21-49-222.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:36 snorble_ [~snorble@c193-14-18-68.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 21:08:45 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:09:09 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 21:09:58 -!- ASau [~user@95-24-144-7.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:11:00 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:11:15 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-240-59.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:11:27 ... Oh, right. I signed on IRC before I got distracted. 21:11:30 Hello everyone. 21:11:42 hi, nyef 21:12:00 _schulte1 [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:40 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:13:47 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:14:09 hi nyef! headed to boston tomorrow? 21:14:58 hey nyef 21:15:05 Not exactly. I've been working a block from South Station for months. The lack of Boston Lisp Meeting over that time has been a great disappointment. 21:15:21 any cxml-rng folks around? 21:17:07 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5081D51B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:17:07 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.62.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:18:20 rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:18:22 -!- cabaire [~nobody@p54940C86.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:19:19 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 21:20:53 -!- Enoria [~Enoria@jte.kidradd.org] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 21:21:21 I'm definitely going to be at CBC tomorrow evening, though. 21:22:10 Enoria [~Enoria@jte.kidradd.org] has joined #lisp 21:22:17 Well, cambridge is what I meant. 21:22:39 I hope to go, but the weather might screw up my plans. 21:24:53 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 21:25:08 ASau [~user@95-26-88-125.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 21:26:05 bring an umbrella 21:28:52 Xach: I hope to see you there! 21:29:05 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 21:29:26 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-212-18.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:31:00 -!- jjkola [~jjkola@xdsl-83-150-83-66.nebulazone.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:31:07 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 21:33:30 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:34:05 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 21:38:36 can you get the slime repl's filename completion to work well with spaces? 21:38:40 -!- _schulte1 [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:38:55 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:39:06 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:33 it won't complete inside a directory that has spaces in its name 21:39:49 don't have such directories 21:40:06 spaces in file names? are you also using "modern mode"? hipster! 21:40:37 i haven't created these directories personally :) 21:41:55 slime doesn't really do the expanding 21:42:03 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:42:59 -!- asvil` [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:43:33 -!- osa1 [~sinan@31.140.20.130] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:47:49 i tried to persuade comint to complete it, but to no avail 21:49:08 phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:49:08 -!- phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Changing host] 21:49:08 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 21:49:16 filenames with spaces in them are really a non-starter on Unix 21:49:32 oh, you need cooperation from both, slime and comint 21:49:49 Right, time for me to disappear again. 21:49:52 -!- nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 21:50:03 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-115.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:51:28 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-383955.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:51:38 cbp```` [~user@187.193.246.181] has joined #lisp 21:51:41 Anyone know if there is an RFC or othersuch standard prescribing the IMG_NNNN.JPG naming convention of some digital cameras and iphones? 21:52:12 what's there to prescribe? 21:53:12 that a device FOO identifies the images it contains when exporting them to some other device? 21:54:19 the image identification is not filename based (at least doesn't seem to be in Picasa's case) 21:54:32 well, i can make autocompletion for spaces work, but then it'll be too eager and start completing def in `"string" (def' as a file 21:54:51 -!- luis [~luis@nhop.r42.eu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:54:52 -!- tempire [~tempire@pool-72-91-241-135.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:55:00 luis [~luis@nhop.r42.eu] has joined #lisp 21:55:12 tempire [~tempire@pool-72-91-241-135.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:24 mon_key: here's your RFC: "name files consecutively from IMG_0001.JPG to IMG_9999.JPG" 21:56:01 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:56:21 I'm curious as to whether there is some published rationale for why it is done. I'm off topic but figured maybe some smart Lisper like yourself might know... 21:56:28 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:56:37 why do you need a rationale? 21:57:04 because i think it is a stupid convention but if it is so common maybe I am missing something. 21:57:24 none of my cameras follow that convention 21:57:31 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 21:57:33 araujo [~araujo@190.73.44.29] has joined #lisp 21:57:36 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.44.29] has quit [Changing host] 21:57:36 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 21:57:42 yoklov [~yoklov@67.221.70.176] has joined #lisp 21:58:00 and why is it stupid, what would be better? image-number-66.jpeg? 21:58:59 I've assumed that the JPG extionsion case is for backwards compatibility. 21:59:21 this whole thing is not something i would even pay attention to 21:59:26 stassats`: foo.jpg or foo.jpeg would be better yes. 21:59:28 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-240-59.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:59:56 (directory #P"/foo/**/*.jpg") (directory #P"/foo/**/*.JPG") 22:00:25 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-240-59.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 22:01:35 are you complaining about the case? that's because FAT is case insensitive and only has upper-case characters 22:01:36 (remove-if-not (lambda (type) (cl-ppcre:scan "(?i)^jpe?g$" type)) (directory #P"/foo/**/*.*") :key #'pathname-type) 22:02:21 newer windows FATs are case-insensitive, but preserve the original case 22:02:26 mon_key: that'd be faster (only one traversal of the directory tree) and safer (would match foo.jPeG, too) 22:03:01 H4ns: thanks for the one liner. 22:05:19 (directory "foo/*.[jJ][Pp][Gg]") 22:05:22 works on SBCL 22:05:40 -!- Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:06:52 well, that's a trick I didn't know about. 22:07:15 stassats`: Nice trick. 22:07:25 "trick" 22:07:59 also works on Allegro 22:08:14 (well, and CMUCL) 22:08:42 not on ccl 22:09:07 yes, nowhere else 22:09:20 but, who needs anything else besides SBCL anyway? 22:09:35 not on clisp 22:09:42 ah, you've tried already. :) 22:09:46 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-115.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:13:32 Is there a standard function like pushnew which replaces the car which passes the test instead of halting if one exists? 22:13:37 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:13:55 I want to append do or destructively update an alist. 22:14:14 (based on key equality) 22:14:21 DataLinkDroid [~David@120.154.181.116] has joined #lisp 22:14:38 (pushnew 'y (cdr (alist 'key alist))) 22:15:07 gotta handle the case where it doesn't exist 22:15:17 I don't quite follow that form. 22:15:37 s/alist/assoc/ where's your imagination?! 22:15:42 :P 22:15:48 Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.115.202] has joined #lisp 22:16:52 [6502] [4e0cf366@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.12.243.102] has joined #lisp 22:17:02 -!- jkantz [~jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:17:05 (let ((acons (assoc 'key alist))) (if acons (push value (cdr assoc)) (push (list 'key value) alist))) 22:18:34 yeah; was curious if that would be a reinvention of a standard wheel, but I guess not 22:18:37 thanks 22:19:05 <[6502]> Hi everyone. Just another strange question... is Lisp code always a DAG or there can be cycles? I'm thinking for example to a quoted part that is self-referencing... 22:19:49 Ralith: if you can get away with GETF, (push 10 (getf plist :b)) 22:20:13 the same with hash-tables 22:20:39 yeah 22:21:18 [6502]: '(a . #1=(b #1#)) 22:21:20 [6502]: the code can't be cyclic, the data can be 22:23:50 Ralith: Why not just use a hash table? 22:24:08 -!- rukubite` is now known as rukubites 22:24:19 "just", hash-table isn't ordered, for starters 22:24:44 rukubites: I have no need for hashing; it's a set to be repeatedly, comprehensively iterated over. 22:24:48 stassats`: Do you have familiarity with his requirements? 22:24:54 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:25:09 the only reason keys exist at all is so updates can be applied in-place. 22:25:10 Ralith: well you can iterate over the hashtable too. *shrugs* 22:25:12 rukubites: a hash-table reduces the set of all possible requirements 22:25:14 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 22:25:27 and, as you can see, i suggested a hash-table before you did 22:25:35 Oh no I didn't read all that. 22:25:48 rukubites: yeah, but it would be a misleading data structure to use. 22:25:54 and it's not like it's hard to do this on alists. 22:26:38 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:26:46 Either way is easy, but if you want a pushnew-with-add for assoc lists without writing the (trivial) pushnew-assoc function, then you'll find gethash does what you want. 22:26:58 <[6502]> cmm: Yes, exactly that, thanks. And indeed I didn't realize that the very fact you can type that at the repl seems to mean that code can have cyclic quoted parts (in this case the code is JUST a quoted part, but it's still code) 22:27:10 so does GETF, if EQL is sufficient 22:27:27 They all work okay, depends on other requirements. 22:27:35 [6502]: except that it's not code 22:27:37 I do like plists 22:27:38 rukubites: I'm fine with writing a three-line utility function :P 22:27:44 I just didn't want to reproduce the standard. 22:27:58 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@69.199.88.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:27:58 <[6502]> stassats`: ? 22:28:13 '(a . #1=(b #1#)) is not code 22:28:22 Code needs to be executable 22:28:34 <[6502]> rukubites: that is executable :-) 22:28:42 Oh, pedants. 22:28:52 <[6502]> stassats`: (defun foo () '(a . #1=(b #1#))) is code ? 22:29:14 yes, but it has no cycles 22:29:18 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.65] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:29:24 Actually '(foobar) expands to (quote (foobar)), where quote specifically doesn't evaluate the contents. 22:29:26 <[6502]> rukubites: (1) is not code 22:29:31 So I should have said 'evaluable' 22:30:36 <[6502]> stassats`: The backref is solved at read time, so the "source code" is cyclical when it reaches the compiler, no? 22:31:16 '(a . #1=(b #1#)) part is not code, it's data 22:31:18 the quotes make your claim not incorrect 22:32:31 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:35:27 (ql:update-all-dists) => ... Removed projects: weblocks-20110829-hg does this mean it's not maintained anymore? 22:36:12 it also may mean that it's maintained not well enough 22:36:19 <[6502]> stassats: (defun foo () '(a . #1=(if (< 1 2) "yes!!!" "noooooooo")) #1#) 22:36:38 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-11-224.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 22:36:45 where do you a cycle here? 22:36:48 do you see 22:37:17 looks like pretty-lisp.org has been reading dto's blog 22:37:32 Fade: because? 22:37:49 <[6502]> stassats`: just wrap the quoted part in a quoted cycle... 22:37:54 the block structure appears right out of blocky 22:38:03 that looks cute 22:38:06 [6502]: you're not making sense 22:38:10 -!- cbp```` is now known as cbp` 22:38:32 what is the most stable web framework for cl right now? something i can count on? 22:38:38 hunchentoot 22:38:49 its a web server 22:39:12 i'm thinking about something built on it 22:39:15 Farzad: what exactly do you want in a framework? 22:39:15 UCW doesn't change much, and weblocks has been around for ages. 22:39:18 What do you mean by "web framework"? 22:39:41 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Quit: rpg] 22:39:47 like weblocks that has widgets, db apis and stuff like that 22:40:02 Fade: not "changing" and "stable" aren't exactly synonymous 22:40:33 Ralith: btw, if you are using pushnew for anything real, note you are boxing yourself into a quadratic algorithm. 22:40:55 Farzad: So ... weblocks, then? 22:41:03 yes, well. ucw works to the extent that I've done a few small projects with it. 22:41:04 don't box yourself into premature optimization 22:41:22 Odin-: well i'm not sure it's docs really suck :D 22:41:31 Farzad: there is no lisp web framework that is both widely used and well supported. 22:41:34 Though of course, the praise you get when you get 100x speed improvements in algorithms when you fix other people's incorrect datastructure usage is pretty sweet. 22:41:41 <[6502]> stassats`: ok... (defun foo () '(a . #1=(b #2=(if (< 1 2) "Yes!!" "Noooooo") #1#)) #2#) 22:41:46 Farzad: there are more 'tradition' frameworks following rest MVC doctrine like caveman and restas. 22:41:48 Farzad: but don't despair, just use hunchentoot and whatever other components you need. 22:41:52 *traditional 22:41:52 stassats`: Having foresight to use correct datastructures is not premature optimization. 22:42:06 [6502]: you can stop trying 22:42:11 H4ns: ok thanks 22:42:12 On account of web stuff being rather simple to pull together, in most cases... 22:42:22 no code can have cycles, it won't be compiled 22:42:41 rukubites: are you saying that pushnew in production code is something that one should not do? 22:43:16 rukubites: having foresight when not to do premature optimization is beneficial 22:43:18 rukubites: if so, you are wrong. 22:43:22 H4ns: As a rule of thumb. You have to be sure of the scope of the list. 22:43:46 rukubites: right. like with any lisp usage, one needs to be aware of the cost of access. 22:43:51 <[6502]> stassats`: i just didn't know if you were allowed (i.e. if it's guaranteed to work in CL) to use a cyclic quoted constant... and the answer seems to be yes 22:44:03 rukubites: if your code exposes data structures to the point where using pushnew would box it in, it's wrong 22:44:07 rukubites: but claiming that pushnew cannot be used for anything "real" is plain wrong. 22:44:18 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 22:44:33 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-208.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:44:33 H4ns: I agree, I never said that. 22:45:04 <[6502]> stassats`: using backquote though crashes sbcl (even if I thought that when no comma is present backquote should be like quote) 22:45:18 oGMo: I guess we have a disagreement. For many things, the list datastructure is fine, as is the hashtable. This is not java. 22:45:28 -!- yoklov [~yoklov@67.221.70.176] has quit [Quit: computer sleeping] 22:45:37 it should produces the same result as `, but not be the same 22:45:42 as ' 22:45:46 rukubites: then if you're using a list, you've already accepted the inherent time complexity of many operations 22:46:19 One thing I hate in practice is code where people add CLOS complexity and gratuitous accessors so you can't use your basic knowledge of the language to get work done. 22:47:17 rukubites: what are you talking about? 22:47:38 the CLOS bogeyman strikes again. 22:47:48 CLOS is great. 22:48:02 I have seen and still have to work with legacy code where CLOS has been terribly abused. 22:48:16 abused? 22:48:23 for example? 22:48:25 Actually, it was just the author was obsessed with objects rather than data. 22:48:31 -!- sigi-ntb_ [~sigi@host-213-189-171-252.brutele.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:48:41 objects are data! 22:48:42 Well I'm bitching about my day job so I won't name names. 22:48:44 how could I possibly confuse objects and data. 22:48:55 stassats`: Objects are often a poor representation of data. 22:48:56 I am ashamed. 22:48:56 -!- dekuked [~k@pool-108-7-203-109.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dekuked] 22:49:03 i don't care who bad programmer is, i'm more curious as to the example you're talking about. 22:49:19 rukubites: oh really? 22:49:32 -!- SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:50:04 I'll try to look up an example of what I was meaning. 22:50:22 would untyped data in a bit-vector be better? 22:50:36 yoklov [~yoklov@67.221.70.176] has joined #lisp 22:51:03 It is all a trade-off, of course. My preference is data stored in a database like postgresql. I do like postmodern. 22:51:46 Basically in this case we have a huge amount of raw data in the system (lisp image). 22:51:51 given the enormous heaps of ram in even modest machines these days, i've been putting more and more data there in recent years. 22:52:17 you might like ROFL 22:52:18 *H4ns* prefers to pull data into memory for most operations, too. 22:52:27 And then we have about 20 different types of objects representing views of the data, and the size of the image is huge. 22:52:28 i like lisp much better than sql, that's why 22:52:40 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:52:41 And all the objects are permanent. 22:53:05 you haven't seen bad database schemes, have you? 22:53:07 But they are really just transient views of data, and the sluggishness of 30gb+ lisp images is ... awkward. 22:53:09 *Fade* touches his nose and points at H4ns 22:53:14 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:53:19 stassats`: Nope. 22:53:21 :P 22:53:52 rukubites: what kind of software is this you're talking about? 22:54:31 Of course data should get pulled into memory. And it does anyway! If you are doing read-only operations on a DB, and have a decent size memory, postgresql and linux will do smart things with RAM caching.. 22:55:02 But data should be released from memory, too. 22:55:02 *[6502]* thinks storing blu-ray movies into lisp images is not a good idea 22:55:49 A set of objects and links between objects is often just a view on data with appropriate indexes. 22:56:00 putting a blueray movie in a postgres database is also a bad idea. 22:56:16 so the question is, what's your point? 22:56:21 <[6502]> fade: i don't disagree 22:56:53 at some point the engineering tradeoff equation has to consider "just because you can doesn't mean it's a good idea". 22:56:54 i see no point, just ranting 22:57:01 Me too. :-) 22:57:04 Cathartic 22:57:47 and anyhow, it's a pretty rare system that needs to keep around 30GB of live data 22:58:05 which is why I'm curious what this software that rukubites is talking about actually does 22:58:27 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #lisp 22:58:32 sigi-ntb_ [~sigi@host-213-189-171-252.brutele.be] has joined #lisp 22:58:38 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:58:44 30GB nowadays is measly 22:58:54 Fade: you're right. That's the problem here. It doesn't need to keep 30gb of data replicated as different persistent objects. But it does because the original author loved objects and abused CLOS. 22:59:08 regarding using only main memory for data - I'm reminded of a polish startup that did search (shopping-specialized) in Clojure. They would initialize their images from data in S3 and keep running in memory 22:59:43 rukubites: port it to ROFL or some similar metaobject ORM and demand load the data. 22:59:46 You could do that with montezuma and postmodern/postgresql in lisp, too, right? 23:00:11 there are a tonne of ways to handle that. 23:00:55 postgresql is no longer written in lisp 23:01:03 Fade: If I had the time/opportunity, I would go with just a postgresql db, and construct transient objects for legacy compatability. 23:01:19 <[6502]> actually I personally think that today in many cases a reasonable approach is to have the data in ram and having serialized access (no need for locks) and just logging to disk. Then every now and then just dump an image (so that reload in case of crash doesn't take forever). With current cost of RAM many of the lines of code in RDBMS are a solution in search of a problem... 23:01:24 stassats`: You scored a clever point! Nice work. 23:01:47 -!- v0yager [~v0yager@173-8-81-129-BusName-tn.chatta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:01:57 [6502]: often because the developers don't have a clue regarding the 'R' part in RDBMS, it seems 23:02:23 is it Revolutionary? 23:02:40 [6502]: I don't recommend your solution. :-) 23:02:53 Random, as work experience shows me. 23:02:58 stassats`: no, "relational" ;) 23:03:00 [6502]: i do. 23:03:22 i do what [6502] says, but sans logs 23:04:14 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:04:22 Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:33 For my other gig, I pull segments of data that fit into memory, do the work, and then release. 23:04:46 but then, i'm not trying to invent a silver bullet 23:05:00 kai_ [~kai@e179005158.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:05:14 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:05:22 rukubites: a reasonable architecture is always a good beginning. 23:05:30 <[6502]> stassats`: so in case of a crash you lose everything since last dump? 23:05:37 it sounds to me like the guy who wrote this app at your day job was a bit of a cowboy. 23:05:51 [6502]: right, but i dump all the time 23:05:58 For that work, I use a cluster of 5 consumer machines, each with a copy of the db for reading, and one controller box. I communicate work with zmq. 23:05:59 dekuked [~k@pool-108-7-203-109.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:17 i'm a fan of zmq. 23:06:19 Fade: I think he was just in over his head. 23:06:23 I've been using it a lot lately. 23:06:44 Fade: I host a version of cl-zmq on github with a few modifications so it works better with 2.1 23:07:05 i'm porting all of my code over to lisp-zmq which is maintained. 23:07:16 i bet you could rewrite in ASM to work on just a single machine! 23:07:28 Fade: I thought of that, but I have legacy code I don't want to rewrite. 23:07:43 And my own version is 'enough'. 23:07:46 i'd start by not writing new code dependant on cl-zmq. 23:08:44 Fade: these days I think the correct term would "thought he was a cowboy" ;) 23:09:01 Fade: Most of my code is dependant on a higher-level api library I wrote anyhow. 23:09:05 what's the command for slime to compile and execute a given function? 23:09:20 Fade: Doing library work on zmq is something I'd do on my 8th day of the week. 23:09:44 p_l: :) 23:10:18 dekuked: C-c C-c C-c C-y 23:10:21 Fade: someone once corrected me nicely about the difference between a real cowboy and "cowboy coder" meme :) 23:10:23 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.106.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:10:28 anyhow, for what it's worth, lisp-zmq is a simple port. the calling sigs are all pretty much the same, as are the identifiers. 23:10:29 But my implementation of the paranoid pirate architecture was pretty easy, and very solid. <3 zmq. 23:10:45 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:10:54 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:10:55 p_l: you must have been talking to somebody from texas or alberta 23:11:09 ... is there a page that *summarises* all the ZMQ interfaces for lisp? 23:11:18 p_l, there are two. 23:11:40 cl-zmq which only supports 2.0, and this lisp-zmq which is maintained. 23:11:54 Fade: Does lisp-zmq support 3.1? 23:11:55 Fade: not really, more like someone who actually invested in learning history and current practice of that job :) 23:11:55 there is also acl-zmq and another acl specific version 23:12:11 (not that i'd recommend them) 23:12:14 and at least one modification of cl-zmq that has a lispier API 23:12:31 (small corrections mostly, afaik) 23:12:36 H4ns: cl-zmq doesn't work on allegro 32 bit, due to its reliance on iolibs. 23:12:36 stassats`: thank you! 23:13:02 rukubites: aha 23:13:06 *p_l* is currently building an IPC system based on ZMQ 23:13:41 well, i can recommend lisp-zmq, as galdo is responsive, and open to patches/pull reqs. 23:13:46 What really got me recently was the change from 2.1.7 -> 2.1.11, where they stopped handling EINTR. 23:13:47 *galdor 23:14:09 rukubites: ah yes, you did say something about that :) 23:14:41 p_l: yes, and you helped me understand the problem, thanks! 23:14:56 that got everybody using cl-zmq in the fall 23:15:17 all three of us. :) 23:15:19 heh 23:15:38 p_l: does lisp-zmq handle it at all? I updated my cl-zmq to signal a more specific error, and got my higher level api to just re-call the recv. 23:16:06 I started using cl-zmq about this time last year. 23:16:06 galdor's github repo for cl-zmq has a patch to deal with the issue. 23:16:12 rukubites: haven't used lisp-zmw 23:16:14 *zmq 23:16:26 I *just* started porting my code to lisp-zmq. 23:16:31 so far, so good. 23:16:50 Fade: It might not be so bad for me, since I isolated my calls in a zmq-tools file. 23:17:16 It basically sends-recvs multi-part messages as lists. 23:18:06 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:18:19 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:19:20 -!- sigi-ntb_ [~sigi@host-213-189-171-252.brutele.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:20:10 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:20:26 Maybe I'll get involved with lisp-zmq. I do have an email from October on the topic still in my inbox 23:20:55 still 2.1 iirc 23:21:39 http://wandrian.net/lisp-zmq.html 23:22:14 I just forked it, so I'll see. 23:22:44 actually I'd prefer for it to keep on 2.1 23:22:47 H4ns: is there any specific reason to use hunchentoot behind Apache or it can be used fine by it's own? 23:22:49 3.x is nowhere near stable 23:22:59 ^^^ 23:23:06 p_l, most of the bindings are compatible with both. 23:23:17 aren't there a bunch of incompatible changes between 2.1 and 3.x? 23:23:17 Farzad: it can be used on its own, if you want to have it serve all your resources. 23:23:35 Fade: There were a bunch in 3.0.x, but that got scrapped, and 3.1.x is much more compatible. 23:23:43 Farzad: i'm usually locating hunchentoot behind a squid reverse caching proxy to offload static files into the frontend. 23:23:53 rukubites: the problem with 3.x is that the incompatibilities aren't obvious, so you get basic stuff running and only notice that you're doing "sprint through minefield" while in the middle of it 23:24:03 well, it's an active project, so I expect it to move with whatever is stable from zeromq.org 23:24:26 I'm happy with 2.1 so far 23:24:28 H4ns: ok, thank you 23:24:37 see no real need to rush into a fundamental update 23:24:40 Farzad: I have hunchentoot behind a lighttp backend 23:25:05 Farzad: You don't really want to run a lisp as root to get to port 80. 23:25:35 p_l: Well I am in no rush to go to 3.1.x either. 23:25:37 Fade: 2.1 is stable 23:25:44 *nod* 23:25:57 Even going from 2.1.7 to 2.1.11 screwed me around. 23:26:05 3.x is "if you like experimenting and won't mind joining developement" 23:26:11 rukubites: good point 23:26:13 Farzad: all this zmq talk reminds me that if you're just investigating this, you could check out mongrel2. 23:26:18 but not for "building a serious app right now" 23:26:21 rukubites: right. that is why the hunchentoot documentation has a pointer to a page describing how to run it on port 80 without running as root. 23:26:25 Fade: Mongrel2 is awesome 23:26:31 I agree 23:26:35 very impressive 23:26:40 Farzad: http://yaws.hyber.org/privbind.yaws 23:27:21 p_l: in what way ? 23:27:21 H4ns: I forget, honestly. I did hunchentoot configuration with lighttp something like 2.5 years ago. 23:27:50 H4ns: The solution worked, and works, so I didn't investigate further. 23:27:58 p_l: just checked, it's not written in lisp, so it doesn't pass the awesomeness criteria 23:28:49 fe[nl]ix: fast, small server that supports practically any backend technology without doing HTTP twice, using a simple interface 23:29:23 zeromq is simple? 23:29:31 simple is relative 23:29:37 but it isn't difficult. :) 23:29:51 stassats`: yes, it is. You can, however, use it to build really bizarre things ;) 23:29:52 zeromq is complicated, but that is because distributed architectures are complicated. 23:29:53 well, if you take SOAP as an example, yes 23:30:12 zeromq is only a minor extra complication above that. 23:30:22 stassats`: SOAP and ZMQ have zero relationship 23:30:23 It taught me networking, so I have especial fondness. 23:30:51 the zeromq guide is a treasure. And there are examples in lisp! 23:31:16 p_l: good to know, although i wasn't claiming otherwise 23:32:15 the 'S' in SOAP is apparently for "Simple", which makes SOAP one of the most hilariously misnamed software technologies ever devised. 23:32:29 rukubites: does a web-server need a "distributed architecture"? 23:32:57 stassats`: no, but the application interfaced by the webserver frequently does. 23:33:31 does it do load balancing or something? 23:33:35 Fade: well, it did start simple 23:33:53 stassats`: you mean about mongrel2? 23:33:57 Hi, I have a question; In a 2005 Paper (using CMUCL), I read that method dispatch was slower than slot accesses, and in order to improve performances, it was better to store the function in a slot, a make a wrapper macro. Did the situation evolved in implementations such as sbcl ? 23:34:12 -!- dekuked [~k@pool-108-7-203-109.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dekuked] 23:34:29 i'd like to see that paper.. 23:35:41 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@p33209-ipngn101aobadori.miyagi.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:35:48 The_third_man: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/index.html#Slot-access 23:35:56 thanks :) 23:36:13 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has joined #lisp 23:38:36 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #lisp 23:38:36 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:38:37 stassats`: I have a webapp which dispatches json-rpc through zeromq to a backend api. The backend is composed of several zmq components which hook into the backend database via postmodern. 23:38:54 darn. lisp paste doesn't work anymore? 23:39:10 slyrus: just doesn't print to channel 23:39:17 ah, ok 23:39:21 slyrus pasted http://paste.lisp.org/display/128069 named "carddav, vcard, cxml, xpath, drakma, etc..." 23:39:40 stassats`: It is mainly a simple enough worker-queue model, because you can't just have one worker because that makes your webapp single-threaded, which is ... not good. 23:39:42 i'm your new lisppaste, slow and buggy 23:39:42 thanks stassats 23:42:00 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@p33209-ipngn101aobadori.miyagi.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:42:24 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@p33209-ipngn101aobadori.miyagi.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:43:02 Fade: I sent a pull-request to galder which fixed the readme link on lisp-zmq. 23:43:11 *galdor 23:43:54 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-240-59.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:44:04 *nod* 23:44:26 stassats`: regarding load-balancing and such: "This means that Mongrel2 is the only web server capable of sending one request from a browser to N backends at once, and then return the replies from these handlers to M browsers. Not exactly sure what you could write with that, but its probably something really damn cool." 23:45:04 Fade: So if I have time, I'll see about lisp-zmq. 23:45:37 if I trace a function, and make a request to hunchentoot, I don't see the trace output - why is that? 23:45:50 nitro_id_ [~nitro_idi@p33209-ipngn101aobadori.miyagi.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:46:00 it's not called? 23:46:08 you're not looking at where it outputs? 23:46:16 like, in *inferior-lisp* 23:46:31 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@p33209-ipngn101aobadori.miyagi.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:47:29 i wasn't looking in *inferior-lisp* :) 23:47:32 but there it was 23:48:20 Fade: Is the comment on galdor's page about lisp-zmq needing a non-quicklisp CFFI still valid? 23:48:34 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:48:41 I think that was one of my issues at the time. 23:51:01 yeah 23:51:11 you're going to want the version from github. 23:51:32 quicklisp tracks releases, so lags a bit. 23:52:45 Fade: looking at the patch he links, it looks like you can just apply the given code snippet. 23:53:09 Kinda as a hotpatch. 23:53:14 It looks like a clean addition. 23:53:39 i find it easier to drop the cffi into a directory on my asdf load path. 23:53:57 Fade: I guess you don't deploy stuff over 7-8 computers. :-) 23:54:15 oh, speaking of patches... my drakma paste doesn't really work unless one patches drakma to handle the REPORT method. 23:54:22 I deploy stuff over about thirty computers 23:54:52 what I don't do is manually construct my lisp environment on all of them. ;) 23:55:25 Fade: hehe, I guess that's it. You're at the stage where you need to automate. I'm at the stage where automating is JUUUST too much work to be worth it. 23:55:37 Do you use any tools in specific. 23:55:39 ? 23:55:55 sb-daemonize/buildapp 23:56:02 tar, rsync 23:56:10 standard unix stuff. 23:56:13 -!- Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.115.202] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:56:30 Has anyone made or tried to make an async version of drakma or something similar? 23:56:51 Weren't you doing that this week? 23:57:10 what does it mean, async? 23:58:43 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:20 stassats: non-blocking? event-based? otherwise able to be used in a single thread without getting in the way of time-sensitive tasks? 23:59:54 -!- [6502] [4e0cf366@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.12.243.102] has quit [Quit: Page closed]