00:02:23 -!- rme_ [~rme@50.43.133.173] has quit [Quit: rme_] 00:03:18 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-118-208.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:03:27 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:03:33 rme_ [~rme@50.43.133.173] has joined #lisp 00:06:13 Am I missing something here, or is CLISP just wrong? http://paste.lisp.org/display/127993 00:06:44 sellout: afair it was a bug that was recently fixed in head/trunk/tip/whatever. 00:06:49 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 00:07:09 antoszka: How recently? I don't think mine is more than a week or two old. 00:07:10 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 00:07:18 But I will rebuild! 00:07:34 sellout: I'll have a look in the mail, I might be mixing unrelated problems. 00:07:51 No changes since my last build :/ 00:08:10 http://clisp.hg.sourceforge.net/hgweb/clisp/clisp/rev/5bcad87b2d40 00:08:30 *maxm-* found clisp flaky with redefinitions of methods, or introduction of new methods, after GF was already called once 00:09:16 sellout: Yeah, I think that's a totally unrelated problem. Sorry about the noise, I'm not using clisp myself. 00:09:19 have several sigsegv like 1 out of 5 times in log4cl testsuite which adds new method to a generic after it was called (in a test) 00:09:44 maxm-: Yeah, I noticed that CLISP warns "adding method to an already called generic function"  but I laughed, thinking, "that is not something to warn about, that is _Lisp_." 00:09:55 -!- naiv [~naiv@AAnnecy-651-1-161-101.w90-48.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 00:12:08 -!- sigi-ntb [~sigi@host-213-189-171-252.brutele.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:12:34 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.163.62] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:13:19 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:09 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-130-213.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:18:16 -!- ura [~ura@unaffiliated/ura] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:18:32 pnq [~nick@ACA246AE.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 00:19:06 ura [~ura@unaffiliated/ura] has joined #lisp 00:19:16 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 00:19:28 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-130-213.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:26:05 Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.103.248] has joined #lisp 00:28:04 -!- srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:28:27 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-130-213.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:29:59 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-130-213.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:31:18 -!- kmcorbett [kmcorbett@clozure-9FE07BBF.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quit] 00:31:18 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quit] 00:35:06 kpreid_ [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has joined #lisp 00:35:24 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.181.27] has joined #lisp 00:35:54 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:36:08 pjb: "15:52:22 sykopomp: My own technology is not built through abuse, only through my own work." <-- That's ok, at least you compensate by slapping an abusive license on it! 00:36:19 Hexstream: oh hush. 00:37:10 -!- Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.103.248] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:37:16 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:37:16 -!- kpreid_ is now known as kpreid 00:37:41 its kind of strange, but /me has very little association between stuff ppl wrote and their nicknames on #lisp.. I know xach is quicklisp guy, pkhuong is sbcl guy, and so were nikodemus/jsnell, dto is gl games guy 00:38:13 but i have no idea what pjb or others wrote.. It could be I'm insulting daily the author of teh very library I also use daily 00:38:16 my only public project is local-time 00:38:20 maxm-: I used to get very very confused in conversations because I just pretty much ignored the nicknames altogether... 00:38:29 good reason not to insult people at all 00:38:44 oh no, I'm a "was" :-( 00:39:10 well I kind of have strong opinions and abrasive style of expressing them, so ppl sometimes can get offended. 00:40:21 for the record libraries I use daily are slime/swank, alexandria, arnesi, cl-store, anaphora, closer-mop, cl-ppcre, commonqt 00:40:26 in no particular order 00:40:48 In light of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon's_Law , I think it's normal that most people wouldn't know what most people are up to. What you see is the "hits". 00:40:58 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:41:06 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.141.183] has joined #lisp 00:41:07 I mean, what one tends to remember. 00:41:30 this channel needs an official page with nick -> things guy known for, probably self-written so there are no griefing 00:41:44 Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.103.20] has joined #lisp 00:46:17 -!- Guthur [~user@host109-151-242-15.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:56:25 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 01:00:10 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.141.183] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:01:38 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.141.183] has joined #lisp 01:07:22 -!- Enoria [~Enoria@jte.kidradd.org] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:07:38 Enoria [~Enoria@jte.kidradd.org] has joined #lisp 01:09:49 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.3.108] has joined #lisp 01:14:36 -!- ghoti- [4c1b035d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.27.3.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:14:52 maxm-: there are already directories of lispers. 01:15:16 eg http://www.cl-user.net/asp/tags/11006 01:17:43 I'm the Gimp News guy! 01:20:18 pjb: but it does not help with mapping them to nicknames on #lisp 01:21:22 ie I have a vague feeling that H4ns is someone important but no idea who :-) 01:21:57 This one is actually pretty easy. 01:23:13 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:23:23 H4ns led the Hübnerian Insurrection of 2003 01:24:01 Wasn't that a Zappian Insurrection? 01:24:48 http://www.spyroforum.com/userpix/4169_NotSureIfSerious_1.jpg 01:26:38 No, really. 01:27:35 -!- Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.103.20] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:28:40 kwmiebach_ [~kwmiebach@xdsl-78-34-253-150.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:29:50 jsnell: doh, have not seen you say anything for a while, thought you kind of what they call it... achieved enlightenment and sublimed, now existing as sort of an energy field 01:31:24 satori? ;) 01:31:39 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:31:43 -!- kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@xdsl-78-34-104-182.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:33:21 kwertii [~kwertii@unaffiliated/kwertii] has joined #lisp 01:36:47 srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 01:41:27 -!- CrazyEddy [~Alpinia@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:43:03 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@cpe-69-203-115-155.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: RomyRomy] 01:44:57 (alexandria:whichever (do-homework) (write-a-macro)) 01:45:21 -!- Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483D93A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:47:13 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.181.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:47:32 -!- dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 01:47:48 nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:49:56 dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:07 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-130-213.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:51:19 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-130-213.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:51:29 Sgeo: :) 01:52:40 another funny story from dilbertville days, we had a customer test script that in one test said if user does X, system will do Y, and another test script that said if user does X system will not do Y 01:53:41 testing was outsourced to Syntel (indian company) who are very literal in their testing, so no matter how we fixed the program, either one or other test failed.. I seriously proposed to use random if statement that would do or not do Y, then we'll have 1/4 chance of passing both 01:57:09 CrazyEddy [~portershi@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 01:57:41 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:57:48 skalawag [~user@c75-110-196-16.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:34 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@host155.201-253-134.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 02:00:08 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.141.183] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.4.1] 02:02:56 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:03:53 inaimathi [~inaimathi@bas1-toronto61-1279436662.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:04:15 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:04:42 -!- dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 02:08:26 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:11 dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:18 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.205.191] has joined #lisp 02:10:19 -!- dto [~dto@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:11:52 -!- rme_ [~rme@50.43.133.173] has quit [Quit: rme_] 02:13:17 rme_ [~rme@50.43.133.173] has joined #lisp 02:16:03 Any CMUCL experts around? When I expand a method combination, I see "; Compiling LAMBDA (.METHOD-ARGS. .NEXT-METHODS.)". Then, when I call a function using that method-combination, I get an error saying "Invalid number of arguments: 1" with that same lambda at the top of the stack. I have no idea what's actually wrong. 02:16:36 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-130-213.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:20:10 RomyRomy [~stickycak@cpe-69-203-115-155.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:21:08 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A5229.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:22:34 -!- OliverUv [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:25:08 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 02:26:20 *facepalm* was searching my CMUCL directory  but I only got the binary. 02:26:24 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:27:22 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Client Quit] 02:28:04 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:28:23 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 02:30:43 maxm-: you may use /whois 02:32:11 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 02:33:08 leo2007 [~leo@111.194.99.103] has joined #lisp 02:33:44 -!- inaimathi [~inaimathi@bas1-toronto61-1279436662.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:36:51 inaimathi [~inaimathi@bas1-toronto61-1279436662.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:39:38 -!- SpitfireWP [spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Quit: It's getting dark, too dark to see] 02:40:52 vairav [~vairav@c-98-207-170-37.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:09 SpitfireWP [spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 02:46:56 -!- SpitfireWP [spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Quit: It's getting dark, too dark to see] 02:48:52 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:56:39 SpitfireWP [~spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 02:59:07 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:00:33 -!- kwmiebach_ [~kwmiebach@xdsl-78-34-253-150.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:05:39 ictxiangxin [~ictxiangx@111.15.20.238] has joined #lisp 03:05:56 -!- ictxiangxin [~ictxiangx@111.15.20.238] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:06:41 ictxiangxin [~ictxiangx@111.15.20.238] has joined #lisp 03:09:17 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:12:32 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:13:00 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@cpe-69-203-115-155.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:13:23 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-121-223-197-249.lns3.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 03:13:27 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:19 ski_ [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 03:24:56 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:26:20 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:37:26 RomyRomy [~stickycak@cpe-69-203-115-155.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:38:47 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #lisp 03:39:44 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA246AE.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:45:41 m7w [~chatzilla@31.24.92.180] has joined #lisp 03:49:09 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:51:11 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 03:51:19 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:54:06 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.106.53.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:54:32 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@31.24.92.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:56:16 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:59:49 -!- CrazyEddy [~portershi@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:03:51 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:05:24 pnathan1 [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 04:05:42 -!- vairav [~vairav@c-98-207-170-37.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:06:03 -!- pnathan1 [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Client Quit] 04:08:51 vairav [~vairav@c-98-207-170-37.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:14:43 CrazyEddy [~asseverat@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 04:18:16 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.207.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:24:53 -!- rme_ [~rme@50.43.133.173] has quit [Quit: rme_] 04:26:09 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:08 -!- vairav [~vairav@c-98-207-170-37.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:30:04 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 04:31:50 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:31:58 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:35:18 wildnux [~wildnux@cpe-72-182-70-190.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:35:44 hefner [~hefner@c-69-255-57-56.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:40:21 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 04:40:48 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:40:57 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@203.149.70.202] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:43:35 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:44:08 -!- ictxiangxin [~ictxiangx@111.15.20.238] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.1.1 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 04:52:52 pnathan [~Adium@64.126.142.148] has joined #lisp 04:58:25 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-121-223-197-249.lns3.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:59:12 -!- leo2007 [~leo@111.194.99.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:00:06 leo2007 [~leo@111.194.99.103] has joined #lisp 05:00:10 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-121-223-197-249.lns3.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 05:12:23 vairav [~vairav@c-98-207-170-37.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:12:40 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:13:43 rotty [~rotty@de.xx.vu] has joined #lisp 05:17:52 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@cpe-72-182-70-190.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:21:36 wildnux [~wildnux@cpe-72-182-70-190.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:24:00 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:24:21 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 05:28:38 -!- vairav [~vairav@c-98-207-170-37.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:32:43 icylisper [~icylisper@27.7.49.38] has joined #lisp 05:33:20 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:35:04 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.181.27] has joined #lisp 05:35:22 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:39:31 -!- icylisper [~icylisper@27.7.49.38] has quit [Quit: icylisper] 05:43:01 Hrmm, in the other lisps I've looked at, a method combination metaobject has a slot like FUNCTION that holds the expander function. In SBCL, the slot exists, but it's NIL  where can I find the expander? 05:45:41 nm, found it :) 05:45:43 -!- PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:46:25 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:47:06 -!- cbp` [~user@187.208.9.159] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:47:09 Actually  maybe not quite what I was looking for. 05:49:24 zhangkaizhao [~zhangkaiz@27.47.15.138] has joined #lisp 05:49:26 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #lisp 05:50:03 I'm assuming you've reviwed closer-mop? 05:50:38 -!- CrazyEddy [~asseverat@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:58:16 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 06:01:33 pnathan: Yes. In fact, I'm discussing this stuff with Pascal as well. What I'm doing now isn't covered by Closer-MOP. 06:02:05 Okay, I wasn't sure, but felt that I should mention, just for completeness sake. :) 06:03:22 Yeah, understandable. And I figured it out  SBCL stores them in sb-pcl::*long-method-combination-functions*, and leaves the function slot of the mc empty. 06:03:23 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.235.212] has joined #lisp 06:03:28 -!- dcguru [~chatzilla@66.129.60.130] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101209123813]] 06:04:14 CrazyEddy [~pseudovis@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 06:04:38 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@p5DE8F68E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:05:26 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@cpe-69-203-115-155.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:07:51 why is this slot present then? 06:08:39 pjb, hi 06:10:01 stassats`: It's from PCL. 06:10:37 the heritage isn't important, why is it remains there then? 06:11:18 stassats`: And for all I know, it may be used in some other cases, just not as the result of a long form D-M-C. 06:12:35 Sgeo: in scheme, eval takes an expression. (define ) is not an expression, it's a definition. It can be put only on the toplevel of a program (or in a begin block, but it's something else). 06:12:53 teggi [~teggi@113.172.44.162] has joined #lisp 06:13:00 wakeup [~wakeup@p57A56C3E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:13:05 Sgeo: That means that the environment arguments passed to scheme eval are essentially immutable. 06:14:20 On the contrary, in CL, eval takes a form. Anything. And you can always do (setf (symbol-function 'f) (lambda () (something-else))), even at run-time. 06:14:31 Hmm 06:14:39 PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has joined #lisp 06:15:23 Sgeo: now I guess you can also do (set! f (lambda () (something-else)) in scheme, but that's all. 06:16:24 How does a Scheme REPL work? Is it just .. built-in, sort of? 06:16:32 Or even: (set! f (eval `(lambda () ,(generate-code)) (scheme-report-environment 5))) 06:16:34 sykopomp: there is little abuse happening at foxconn 06:16:48 Sgeo: yes, built-in. At least as it is specified, it can be just that. 06:17:46 I could swear I saw a remote REPL thing for users of an emacs thing for Racket and Chicken Scheme some time ago 06:17:51 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:17:57 (As in, when I last had interest in Lisp-family languages) 06:18:40 slime works for scheme (sometimes) 06:18:47 Sgeo: The point is that it's harder to do in scheme in a standard way. There may be some implementations providing some implementation specific way to do something similar to CL. 06:18:52 (for some schemes) 06:18:56 -!- xjrn [~chatzilla@c-67-174-244-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:19:01 In CL, it's essentially portable: slime works with all CL implementations. 06:19:30 pjb: not without a compatibility layer 06:19:49 Much thinner than for scheme implementations. 06:19:55 If I stick with a Scheme that supports remote REPLs, is it still less suitable for debugging live programs than CL? 06:20:10 pjb: there's no compatibility layer for scheme implementations, essential 06:20:11 y 06:20:27 Sgeo: just compare what happens when a bug occurs in a scheme program and in a lisp program. 06:20:30 100K Dec 2 23:44 swank-cmucl.lisp 68K Jan 8 21:57 swank-sbcl.lisp 06:20:40 i wouldn't call that "thin" 06:20:42 What do Schemes do? 06:21:57 Hmm, in csi (the Chicken Scheme REPL), (/ 1 0) just ... crashes. 06:22:12 No choices about what to do, I guess. 06:22:22 vairav [~vairav@c-98-207-170-37.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:23:10 Sgeo: nothing. http://paste.lisp.org/+2QRH 06:23:21 Well at most they'll print a backtrace. 06:23:57 most schemes have exception handling 06:24:12 and r7rs would include a standard one 06:24:12 Then again, Racket may do something, but it's not specified. In CL, not much is specified, but there's *debugger-hook*. Even if your CL provided a dumb debugger, you could inject slime in it with *debugger-hook*. 06:25:08 #;1> (/ 1 0) 06:25:08 Error: (/) division by zero 06:25:08 Call history: 06:25:08 (/ 1 0) 06:25:08 (/ 1 0) <-- 06:25:21 Sgeo, I wouldn't call that crashing. 06:25:59 when i wrote a swank module for Gauche scheme, I used exceptions in conjunction with call/cc 06:26:06 but i don't really remember any details 06:26:49 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:27:41 -!- zhangkaizhao [~zhangkaiz@27.47.15.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:28:11 -!- leo2007 [~leo@111.194.99.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:28:27 zhangkaizhao [~zhangkaiz@27.47.15.138] has joined #lisp 06:32:05 spradnyesh [~pradyus@117.192.43.227] has joined #lisp 06:32:55 call/cc++ 06:34:28 -!- pnathan [~Adium@64.126.142.148] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:38:52 -!- easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has left #lisp 06:40:49 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-240-59.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:43:12 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:43:31 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 06:45:29 -!- CrazyEddy [~pseudovis@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:50:28 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-228-18.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:50:49 CrazyEddy [~bacteriop@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 06:53:38 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-121-223-197-249.lns3.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:55:17 -!- Kron [~Kron@69.166.24.9] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 06:57:09 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-145-192.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 06:59:39 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.65] has joined #lisp 07:00:39 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:01:45 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.52.65] has joined #lisp 07:04:19 Hmm, you know what would be cool? 07:04:32 If coerce used a generic function that user-defined classes could.. define 07:04:39 Er, well, provide a method for 07:07:35 -!- vairav [~vairav@c-98-207-170-37.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:09:00 Hmm! 07:09:13 quazimodo [~quazimodo@203.149.70.202] has joined #lisp 07:09:14 hmm perhaps some implementations implent such a coerce extension... some have extendable sequences for instance 07:09:21 s/implent/implement/ 07:09:24 When I make a struct called account, why is the predicate called account-p and not accountp? 07:09:36 phadthai, I was thinking more in terms of a general conversion function. 07:09:41 For any conversion 07:09:44 -!- felideon [~felideon@184.105.242.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:09:50 Sgeo, predicates created by structs unconditionally add "-p" 07:10:53 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:13:16 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-184.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:15:45 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:16:07 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #lisp 07:17:13 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-121-223-197-249.lns3.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:17:35 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@117.192.43.227] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:18:05 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 07:20:28 dcguru [~chatzilla@66.129.60.130] has joined #lisp 07:21:05 -!- yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Quit: computer sleeping] 07:25:31 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 07:25:48 -!- inaimathi [~inaimathi@bas1-toronto61-1279436662.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:28:50 -!- frkout [~frkout@p24125-ipngn401akatuka.ibaraki.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Tiarra 0.1+svn-36726: SIGINT received; exit] 07:29:20 jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-11.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:32:56 osa1 [~sinan@78.175.219.86] has joined #lisp 07:33:59 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-408798.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 07:40:08 -!- CrazyEddy [~bacteriop@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:41:33 sigi-ntb [~sigi@host-213-189-171-252.brutele.be] has joined #lisp 07:44:48 -!- kwertii [~kwertii@unaffiliated/kwertii] has quit [Quit: bye] 07:47:21 -!- sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 07:49:49 sawgij [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #lisp 07:52:31 -!- sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:53:25 -!- Phooodus [~foo@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:55:29 conditionally, you can name it whatever you like 08:06:11 *Sgeo* doesn't see a good builtin substitute for the state monad. Dynamically-scoped variables don't quite cut it, because what if one function does stuff to *state* and another does stuff to *something-else*, they won't interoperate. 08:06:51 if you want monads, you know where to find them 08:11:17 CrazyEddy [~compassio@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 08:11:17 A bit of Googling finds http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-monad-macros/monad-macros.htm 08:11:57 Are ! allowed in symbols like that? 08:12:13 of course 08:12:17 ! isn't special in any way 08:12:25 vantage|home [~vantage@110.62-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 08:12:40 I guess I assumed it wasn't allowed since it's not used like in Scheme 08:12:46 Bad assumption 08:12:57 scheme uses a convention 08:14:00 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@host155.201-253-134.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:17:06 I was going to rage at with-monad but actually I think it makes sense come to think of it 08:20:07 fantasticsid [~user@178.18.16.11] has joined #lisp 08:21:50 inaimathi [~inaimathi@bas1-toronto61-1279436662.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 08:22:10 -!- inaimathi [~inaimathi@bas1-toronto61-1279436662.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 08:26:51 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA06F4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:29:52 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.106.180] has joined #lisp 08:31:31 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-11.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:38:27 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:50:30 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-110-63.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: sleep] 08:52:31 scrimohsin [~m5j7j5h33@gateway/tor-sasl/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 08:56:50 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-137-229.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 08:57:38 -!- parabolize [~gyro@c-75-70-14-105.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:59:06 parabolize [~gyro@c-75-70-14-105.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:59:35 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-145-192.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:04:06 g'morning. 09:04:28 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-93-152.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 09:04:31 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-93-152.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:05:08 -!- drwho [~drwho@216-122-174-206.gci.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:06:44 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-93-152.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 09:21:59 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 09:33:23 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-240-59.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:34:34 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.175.219.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:35:01 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@212.71.14.175.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:38:19 theBlackDragon [~dragon@212.71.14.175.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:49:07 fudanchii [~adie@180.252.223.141] has joined #lisp 09:53:29 -!- Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:57:51 kiuma [~kiuma@93-36-8-5.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:58:21 Jubb [~ghost@24-151-74-186.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 09:58:41 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.44.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:03:48 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:06:04 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:09:47 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 10:09:57 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 10:10:12 blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-45763eb0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 10:10:56 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-45763eb0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:12:04 -!- Jubb [~ghost@24-151-74-186.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:16:53 am0c [~am0c@14.56.92.214] has joined #lisp 10:24:28 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:25:18 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@212.71.14.175.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:26:16 theBlackDragon [~dragon@212.71.14.175.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:27:00 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:36:10 -!- fantasticsid [~user@178.18.16.11] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:40:02 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 10:40:11 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-34.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:42:17 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-130-213.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:43:14 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-137-229.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 10:43:33 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-137-229.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 10:45:20 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@110.62-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:46:32 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 10:47:06 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-097-177.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:47:52 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.205.191] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 10:52:41 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:53:01 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 11:00:17 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:00:29 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:00:37 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 11:04:35 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:07:19 -!- limetree_ is now known as limetree 11:08:42 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.65] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 11:11:09 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 11:11:36 -!- MrBusiness [~MrBusines@75-163-245-119.clsp.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:12:15 nha [~prefect@5-74.104-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 11:15:42 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 11:18:16 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #lisp 11:25:25 -!- parabolize [~gyro@c-75-70-14-105.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:26:47 parabolize [~gyro@c-75-70-14-105.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:32:03 Guthur [~user@host109-151-242-15.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:35:48 -!- aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:38:43 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129238200.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 11:39:18 mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 11:41:58 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.3.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:42:02 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:42:28 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:42:32 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 11:45:30 ghoti- [4c1b035d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.27.3.93] has joined #lisp 11:47:19 daniel__2 [~daniel@p5082B1F9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:47:44 osa1 [~sinan@78.175.219.86] has joined #lisp 11:48:25 -!- daniel___ [~daniel@p5082AC3C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:49:36 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-184.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:50:44 aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has joined #lisp 11:51:57 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:52:05 does anyone know the early registration cutoff for ELS 11:57:25 pnq [~nick@ACA20E54.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 11:59:48 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@124.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 12:00:44 -!- benny [~benny@i577A74B0.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:02:08 sezo [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 12:02:49 benny [~benny@i577A284B.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:09:08 Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 12:10:40 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-28-207.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:11:28 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@93-36-8-5.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:12:23 -!- skalawag [~user@c75-110-196-16.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has left #lisp 12:13:06 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.215.28] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:19:56 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-408798.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:21:45 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.181.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:26:02 hi 12:28:15 francogrex [~user@109.130.9.97] has joined #lisp 12:28:41 Hi I have pasted an example of multiple proceses (threads) in ecl: http://paste.lisp.org/display/128000 12:29:01 would anyone who knows annotate with the equivalent in sbcl ? 12:30:02 I would suggest you use Bordeaux-Threads instead 12:31:16 -!- fudanchii [~adie@180.252.223.141] has left #lisp 12:36:55 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.111.36] has joined #lisp 12:43:54 re 12:45:07 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA06F4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:46:06 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-34.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:47:32 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-34.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:51:30 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:54:01 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:57:55 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 13:02:24 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 13:04:32 but it's possible with sb threads 13:05:02 rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:06:08 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:06:17 francogrex: yes, but why would you. Just use the BT variants and it'll work on all platforms. 13:06:55 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA20E54.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:06:58 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Client Quit] 13:08:45 pnq [~nick@ACA20E54.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 13:10:13 -!- mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:10:32 mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 13:12:28 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 13:12:49 vantage|home [~vantage@110.62-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 13:14:00 -!- Guthur [~user@host109-151-242-15.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:16:43 ISF [~ivan@187.106.53.231] has joined #lisp 13:17:46 bjonnh [~bjonnh@2a01:e35:8a53:8940:21e:64ff:fe84:8986] has joined #lisp 13:19:59 tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.207.74] has joined #lisp 13:20:01 -!- sezo [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Quit: #yhiselamu | www.yhiselamu.ee (EOF)] 13:21:20 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA06F4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:21:25 bjonnh` [~bjonnh@2a01:e35:8a53:8940:21e:64ff:fe84:8986] has joined #lisp 13:21:26 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:22:01 kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@xdsl-78-34-253-150.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:22:08 -!- bjonnh [~bjonnh@2a01:e35:8a53:8940:21e:64ff:fe84:8986] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:23:00 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:23:27 -!- bjonnh` is now known as bjonnh 13:33:22 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-156-154.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:30 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.175.219.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:35:38 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 13:36:14 -!- am0c [~am0c@14.56.92.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:36:43 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-137-229.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:37:30 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #lisp 13:42:01 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:44:15 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-121-223-197-249.lns3.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:44:48 -!- mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:45:08 mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 13:45:36 Froward [~PANZERKON@64.134.47.94] has joined #lisp 13:46:43 silenius [~silenius@i59F74A20.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:47:46 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 13:48:43 dto [~dto@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:03 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@212.71.14.175.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:50:05 kwmiebach_ [~kwmiebach@xdsl-78-34-237-158.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:51:36 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.9.97] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:51:59 -!- dto [~dto@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:52:14 n1tn4tsn0k [~moo@178.47.224.59] has joined #lisp 13:52:25 -!- kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@xdsl-78-34-253-150.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:52:36 LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-8-26.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:59 theBlackDragon [~dragon@212.71.14.175.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:28 francogrex [~francogre@109.130.9.97] has joined #lisp 13:58:14 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:59:21 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:59:23 francogr` [~user@109.130.9.97] has joined #lisp 14:01:33 I am testing cl-irc 14:02:40 I can read the messages but can't seem to send one myself from cl-irc 14:03:16 -!- ko1 [~k11@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:04:41 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 14:04:58 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:05:05 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:05:33 -!- alanpearce [~alan@home.alanpearce.co.uk] has quit [Quit: alanpearce] 14:06:16 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-93-152.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:07:03 francogr`: there is cl-irc:privmsg 14:07:52 daimrod: I meant just a simple one to the group not private, i seem stuck in a read loop 14:09:44 (read-message-loop connection) I can't get out of it 14:10:08 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:10:31 -!- francogrex [~francogre@109.130.9.97] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:11:09 -!- naryl [~weechat@188.134.95.93] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 14:12:14 you can use threads. 14:12:44 in sbcl do you have an example? 14:12:53 no I use bt 14:13:50 (bordeaux-threads:make-thread #'some-fun) 14:15:25 ok seems everyone uses bordeaux-threads 14:15:26 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 14:16:07 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:33 I will try 14:16:34 it's portable, and it has a documentation. :) 14:16:46 ok seems good 14:16:54 IIRC a message to a channel is considered a "privmsg" 14:17:10 *francogr`* away 14:18:13 naryl [~weechat@188.134.95.93] has joined #lisp 14:19:29 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:20:33 ko1 [~k11@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 14:21:21 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 14:21:52 -!- francogr` [~user@109.130.9.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:23:25 alanpearce [~alan@home.alanpearce.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:24:35 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 14:27:56 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-225-108.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:28:19 s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-225-108.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:38 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:35:19 Praise- [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 14:35:38 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:35:40 -!- ironChicken [~richard@195.3.137.108] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:36:38 -!- Praise- is now known as Praise 14:38:57 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 14:39:10 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:51 RomyRomy [~stickycak@cpe-69-203-115-155.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:41:13 francogr` [~user@109.130.9.97] has joined #lisp 14:42:50 -!- francogr` [~user@109.130.9.97] has quit [Client Quit] 14:43:00 Frowardly [~PANZERKON@64.134.47.94] has joined #lisp 14:44:07 ironChicken [~richard@195.3.137.108] has joined #lisp 14:46:09 -!- Froward [~PANZERKON@64.134.47.94] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:46:29 *easye* gives two prehensile thumbs up to Parenscript! 14:55:24 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 14:55:40 TheMue [~TheMue@p5DDF5608.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:12 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 15:00:06 Yuuhi [benni@p5483BD6F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:34 -!- mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:00:53 mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 15:01:01 meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 15:01:08 -!- wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:03:27 Guthur [~user@host109-151-242-15.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:08:14 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA20E54.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:08:37 I'm not crazy, right  (sort foo #'equal ) can't do anything useful, except maybe fake-randomize your list. 15:13:12 pnathan [~Adium@76.178.164.157] has joined #lisp 15:13:27 joebo [4bb95128@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.185.81.40] has joined #lisp 15:15:11 pnq [~nick@ACA20E54.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 15:15:17 -!- oiir` [~user@h-73-200.a146.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:18:07 looks like it, yes 15:18:26 typechecks just fine, though! 15:19:38 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.106.53.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:20:51 cmm: Hahaha 15:22:20 cmm: If only CL had Haskell's TotalOrderingFunction type. 15:22:43 dtw [dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 15:26:55 *cmm* thinks he'll pass 15:30:46 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:30:51 -!- silenius [~silenius@i59F74A20.versanet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:32:24 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@110.62-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg] 15:33:23 ISF [~ivan@187.106.53.231] has joined #lisp 15:33:52 sellout: how can you statically guarantee that? 15:34:04 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:34:33 loke: It was a joke. 15:35:43 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-93-152.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 15:36:16 sellout: I was referring to Haskell. Can such a type really exist there? 15:36:27 loke: No  that was the joke. 15:36:31 Ah 15:37:43 sellout: However, that illustrates an issue I have with Haskell's over-eager desire for static type-safety. IMHO, of course. 15:37:54 there certainly is a typeclass for that sort of thing, actually. don't remember the name, though 15:39:22 cmm: Do you mean Ord? 15:39:23 yeah, it's "Ord" 15:40:46 jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-11.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:41:55 Unordered [Ord a] -> Ordered [Ord a] 15:42:08 That's the TotalOrderingFunction type ;) 15:42:20 Well, you can check that a function is a total order on the given data. 15:42:30 Actually, just [Ord a] -> Ordered [Ord a] 15:42:47 (if (total-order-p seq fun) (sort seq fun) seq) 15:42:49 pjb: what, without actually running it? 15:43:01 No, by running it. 15:43:31 And you can also do that at compilation time on typical data. It's called "test". 15:44:10 is data typically available at compile time? 15:44:22 vervic [~vervic@vie-188-118-247-221.dsl.sil.at] has joined #lisp 15:44:32 and how do you make sure that non-typical data is never fed to your function? 15:44:32 No. BUt typical data is typically available at compilation time. 15:44:47 You cannot. Hence my proposed run-time solution. 15:45:17 which problem do you purport to solve, again? :) 15:45:33 Ensure that the function passed to sort defines a total order. 15:45:36 what is typical data? something that models how the real data looks like? 15:47:17 something tells me that pjb is not a typical input for socratic questioning :) 15:47:54 cmm: How does the type definition of Ord look like? I still can't fathom how you can have a type-check system that statically guarantees that a function that satisfies Ord is actually a total ordering function... 15:49:19 loke: you have to trust whoever implemented the relevant typeclass instance, obviously 15:49:32 loke: It doesn't guarantee that. 15:50:53 hmm, never heared the term socratic questions, http://changingminds.org/techniques/questioning/socratic_questions.htm ... i like the concept ... "Sadly, he martyred himself by drinking hemlock rather than compromise his principles" ... wait, he drank what? 15:51:39 yeah, the word hasn't actually been invented at CMU 15:52:41 cmm: I see. Thanks for the clarification. 15:54:36 so hemlock is the result of not willing to compromise the principle of only using tools written in CL? :-) 15:55:34 "dogfood" was taken, I guess :) 15:56:07 eMBee: I think perhaps they wanted to make a better text editor 15:58:07 dlowe: of course, i am just pointing out the irony in the namechoice. i don't think this was intentional 15:58:48 well, he obviously meant something by it 15:59:22 might well have been, those elder lispers were a well-read bunch 15:59:50 to get back to the topic: i wasn't actually posing a socratic question in this case, but rather direct am simply unsure what the term "typical data" means 15:59:56 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-34.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:00:38 the best you can hope for is getting an answer as to what "typical data" _typically_ means 16:02:29 Is it just me, or is "wj" on c.l.l a very annoying person? 16:02:46 it's an old troll, yes 16:03:16 (but then who on c.l.l isn't) 16:03:19 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~moo@178.47.224.59] has quit [Quit: Òîïèíàìáóð?] 16:03:53 nialo` [nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:56 eMBee: in the middle of the gauss curve. 16:04:30 cmm: seems like it... Even xah lee can (on rare occasions) say something constructive, but wj's comments are always completely pointless 16:04:54 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:06:03 He just tests his bot to translate CL to MatzLisp or something. 16:06:58 pjb: I really love your FORMAT comment... I was thinking of using it to show the power of format, although I'm not sure it'll work on my boss. He was last week explaining how ancient and outdated the CL format syntax is ("it doesn't even use % as escape character!") 16:06:59 https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.lisp/Ptcfe38uTNc/kOwFOqjKxkcJ 16:09:09 -!- meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:09:28 -!- joebo [4bb95128@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.185.81.40] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:09:50 kai__ [~kai@f052101053.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:10:13 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:10:46 loke was he joking? 16:11:47 pjb: that defines the typical part, but doesn't really explain the relationship to compile time. with that i can only imagine that it means a constant like '(123 45 912) to represent a numerical list 16:12:36 Guthur: I'm afraid not. Bascially, he explained that CL's format syntax was very old and not "modern". When I asked how so, he mentioned that it uses ~ instead of %. 16:13:25 O_o 16:13:29 format strings suck.. Lisp can do better 16:13:30 Guthur: I think he said it because he really couldn't think of anything else. That he basically had painted himself into a corner. 16:13:46 adeht: Hmm, what would be better in your opinion? 16:13:54 OUT? ;) 16:14:07 sykopomp, yes :) 16:14:09 loke: yeah, seems a rather strange assertation 16:14:21 sykopomp, but not McDermott's 16:14:30 Guthur: Yeah. I respectfully disagreed and closed the conversation. 16:14:34 adeht: is there a different one? 16:14:38 https://github.com/death/constantia/blob/master/out.lisp 16:14:45 hah 16:15:21 "out"? 16:16:13 OK, so OUT is a format-like function that uses keywords instead of a format string? 16:16:24 OUT:FORMAT::ITERATE:LOOP, kinda 16:16:48 -!- mathrick__ is now known as mathrick 16:16:56 what's the difference between the two "out" version? 16:17:25 compare (out (:d foo :width 8 :pad-char #\0)) vs. (format t "~8,'0X" foo) 16:17:27 sykopomp: Man, I was parsing those : as package delimiters, and my brain was hurting. 16:17:53 that's a simple case, but advantages are already visible 16:18:05 adeht: boy, that is a lot of characters to type. and where is the documentation? 16:18:28 adeht: I don't really see that as more advantageous, but to each their own 16:18:46 For the same reason I prefer the raw regex syntax to the sexp version 16:19:26 sexp regex is useful when including user supplied literal string in the expression 16:19:28 *Odin-* finds mixing them to be very useful. 16:19:36 loke, perhaps you'll find McDermott's explanations worthy of consideration. http://cs-www.cs.yale.edu/homes/dvm/format-stinks.html 16:19:42 kennyd: fair enough. 16:19:52 adeht: I'll read it 16:19:59 H4ns, read the README 16:21:26 adeht: you mean there is no documentation? or is there a readme that i have not seen? 16:21:34 H4ns, I forgot some chars btw.. :base 16 :) 16:21:57 adeht: OK, I'm reading it. It all comes down to this quote: "In my opinion, this was a silly mistake" 16:22:16 H4ns, in the readme I wrote that it's not expressly intended for public consumption.. i.e. it's for my own use.. so no docs 16:22:28 adeht: Im my opinion, it wasn't. 16:22:44 loke, fine 16:22:47 So, it's still dependent on individual's states 16:22:47 adeht: jsut wondered, because you posted it here, and this is kind of "the public" never mind. 16:22:49 tastes 16:23:09 oGMo: I definde it: "TEST"! 16:23:29 The typical data is the data you use when you "TEST" your program! 16:23:33 H4ns, it's just to show a possible alternative to format strings that I find much more convenient 16:24:04 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@cpe-72-182-70-190.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:24:04 it would be an alternative if it was quickloadable :/ 16:24:40 adeht: what i was really looking for were some examples how it is used. maybe you can add some in a comment. 16:24:44 unfortunately without some documentation it is hard to see how it is an alternative. at least one example for each directive would help 16:25:07 or what H4ns says :-) 16:25:11 loke: actually, there's a sound technical reason why format uses ~ instead of %. In reports, you oned to print % more often than ~. So (format t " ~8,2F % ~&" data) is better than " %8.2f %% \n". 16:25:50 pjb: Very good point 16:26:03 By the way, which one came first, FORMAT or printf()? 16:26:07 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 16:26:17 FORTRAN FORMAT. 16:26:20 :-) 16:26:27 The FORMAT statement started with Fortran, in the mid-50's. 16:26:39 Right, but between C and CL? 16:26:51 CL's format comes from MacLisp, yes? 16:26:55 loke: time for some lisp archeology. 16:27:03 I'd try MacLisp first, yes. 16:27:35 H4ns, hmm.. lemme find some snippet 16:27:35 Hasn't format already been extended to take arbitrary functions in the format string place? 16:27:36 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-50-021.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:28:07 sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:20 Odin-: it has, but the syntax is clunky and the functions need to reside in cl-user 16:28:21 I think the point of OUT is to make the results a bit more readable and maintainable. 16:28:26 MacLisp has format, yes. 16:28:49 -!- Skola is now known as Skola`food 16:28:56 -!- Skola`food [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:29:00 pjb: How do I figure out when it was introduced there? 16:29:07 -!- finnrobi [~robb@xvm-20-190.ghst.net] has quit [Quit: Changing server] 16:29:26 loke: poke into the sources. 16:29:37 H4ns: That's clumsy. 16:29:43 http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP 16:29:44 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.24.9] has joined #lisp 16:30:10 loke: an easy way would be to download the sources of all the lisp you can, and find-grep -i format. 16:30:27 Odin-: on the up side, user-defined formatting functions are part of the standard, so they work everywhere. 16:30:37 pjb: woah 16:30:38 :-) 16:30:40 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:49 It's half past midnight now and I need to work tomorrow. 16:30:56 I'll do that later :-) 16:32:03 H4ns, small example here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/128005 16:32:24 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:32:39 WRT McDermott's paper above, I think it's bad to use :e :o, etc. It makes OUT a macro, or :E, :O, etc funtions. You can just write (defun out (&rest args) (mapc 'princ args)) (defun f (w d data) (foormat nil "~V,VF" w d data)) so you can write (out "X= " (f 8 2 123.456)) 16:32:55 (of course, you would implement f without s/foormat/format. 16:33:51 So instead of writing (format t "Balance = ~/money:us/~%" amount) You'd write (out "Balance =" (money:us amount) #\newline) 16:34:10 adeht: i see - i'm not quite convinced that OUT is better than plain old functions that write to streams, but that's just a matter of my taste. 16:34:17 But still, there is one advantage of format, it's that you can parameterize the control-string. 16:34:53 And it's easier than if you had to parameterize a printing function: you can put the format control strings in files for users to localize. 16:34:54 Soooo ... cl-interpol, anyone? 16:34:57 H4ns, well, it works for me. I'd suggest trying it out, but wouldn't want to trouble you since there's no doc 16:35:12 H4ns: What about the convenience of having an easy way to control width/padding/etc? 16:35:29 pjb, this is Lisp. you can parameterize Lisp forms at will 16:35:50 adeht: yeah, no doc is a real down side for me. i like format because i know where to look when i need to know something about it. 16:35:58 cbp` [~user@187.208.9.159] has joined #lisp 16:36:02 Yes, but my point is that it's easier to put strings in files than sexps. Users won't write lisp code to translate their messages. 16:36:37 I just think structured data shouldn't be shoved into an opaque string.. I think Lisp embodies that idea quite well, with the exception of FORMAT 16:36:37 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.106.53.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:38:20 adeht: the string is not opaque: it's user configurable. 16:38:37 End-user. 16:38:55 *Odin-* would argue it's not supremely structured in most cases, either. 16:39:49 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA20E54.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:40:07 format is fine. Don't use esoteric stuff, instead use (with-output-to-string) and several print or format statements inside 16:40:38 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:41:13 the horrible examples of format comes, when someone wants to print a complex thing, starts with a (format), and then spends 1 day dicking around with it, finally coming up with a horrible example that people will ask "someone explain how the hell this works" for years 16:41:43 instead of wasting a day, they could have abandoned format after its obviously not being suitable for the complex task, and accomplished same thing with 3 extra lines of code 16:41:44 pjb, it reminds me of a way to write "macros" in non-Lisps... macroexpand("my code here") => "expanded code".. voila! 16:42:11 Or you could write: (out '("X = " (f 8 2) " N= " a newline) 123.456 "John") 16:42:18 The sexp could be user-defined. 16:43:10 well I was talking about using standard CL.. obviously there are better toools in one checks out all the available libraries 16:43:30 Joreji [~thomas@74-028.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:43:33 maxm-: people writing complex format control strings don't spend days on them They're natural to them. Actually, they're quite easy to write. It's reading that poses problem. 16:44:12 imho its kind of addictive.. you start with format, and then it becomes a point of pride to bludgeon the complex printing task into single format string.. /me got caught in this himself, but slapped myself out of it 16:44:47 I actually recall I used that technique once for some CL snippet because I couldn't be arsed to use a reader macro... it was something like (defvar *palette* (let ((*read-base* 16)) (read-from-string "((AB CD EF) (BE DE AD) ..."))) 16:44:52 Yes, FORMAT strings get easily line noise. WITH-OUTPUT-TO-STRING and actual Lisp code is nicer -- to write and to read. 16:45:01 well not for me, its as hard to write as to read.. I'm not using advanced stuff often enough to stick in LRU memory, that I have to look it up in the manual every time 16:45:14 rvrebane [~rvrebane@valjapaas.vkhk.ee] has joined #lisp 16:45:29 (out '("--> " (:foreach :a :then :newline)) list) vs. (format t "~{~A~^~%~}" list) 16:45:29 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 16:45:39 although I did write a simple reader macro once to allow #16X((AB CD EF) ...) 16:45:59 er, #16R 16:46:08 pjb: yup, out is immediately more understandable 16:46:21 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-50-021.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 16:46:27 pjb is that actual out syntax? 16:46:39 -!- Frowardly [~PANZERKON@64.134.47.94] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:46:40 kennyd: no. I'm inventing here. 16:47:01 *maxm-* assumes :a :b :c are 1st 2nd 3rd of teh list? 16:47:12 No. :a is "~A". 16:47:19 ah 16:47:22 (:f 8 2) is "~8,2F" 16:47:48 It's rather more verbose. 16:48:01 -!- sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 16:48:02 adeht: how does "~{~A~^~%~}" look like with out? 16:48:21 pjb, my out would be (out (:s list :separator #\Newline)) 16:48:28 but imho (with-output-to-string (*standard-output*) (mapc #'princ list)) is just as good, or (dolist (x) (princ x)) 16:48:28 sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:04 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-34.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:49:13 -!- sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:49:22 there is a format recepie for separator too, but I forget it every time, and it takes me 5 minutes to recreate if I want to use it.. Can write 20 (dolists) in that time 16:49:44 maxm-: No, it's not as good. You want the control to be data editable by the user, for localization! 16:50:09 If you use the first out I proposed, or your with-output-to-string, localization implies writing lisp code. No user can do that. 16:50:11 ISF [~ivan@187.106.53.231] has joined #lisp 16:50:33 hmm, well if requirement is to let user enter these strings then yea 16:50:33 finnrobi [~robb@xvm-20-190.ghst.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:46 Strings or sexps, if you prefer sexps. 16:50:50 pjb, now, how would you print just the first ten elements of the list 16:50:52 sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:02 adeht: there's no format for that AFAIK. 16:51:03 vantage|home [~vantage@110.62-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 16:51:30 -!- sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:51:33 but I have not really seen situations where letting user control printf formats ended well.. They always found ways to crash stuff, and if you need to sanitize, everyone writes some kind of processsor for these anyway (usually reinventing the wheel) 16:51:39 pjb, out syntax extends easily (out (:s list :end 10 :separator #\Newline)) 16:51:40 But then, using a sexp-based out, it could be easier to write such extensions. (out '(:repeat 10 :a :then ", ") list) 16:51:55 sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:36 it also supports any sequence, not just lists 16:52:38 probably better to have :join, coz your example would print extra trailing "," 16:52:56 -!- sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:53:32 the first 10 elements with format: (format t "~{~A~^~%~}" (subseq list 0 10)) 16:53:48 eMBee, inefficient 16:54:28 what about separating them with commas.. answer in next minute, and you a genius 16:54:55 X-Scale [email@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has joined #lisp 16:55:00 (format t "~{~A~^,~}" (subseq list 0 10)) 16:55:01 actually no, what about separating them with a separator stored in a variable 16:55:16 That's harder. :-) 16:55:18 maxm: out can also do that 16:55:49 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:56:45 I thought out is thing pjb is making up on the fly? 16:56:51 maxm: my out :) 16:57:24 Froward [~PANZERKON@64.134.47.94] has joined #lisp 16:57:44 ah cool.. /me would have used more libs in log4cl, but did not wanted to turn it into hu.dwim type thing that pulls 10 other systems with it 16:58:39 another example of OUT casual use: http://paste.lisp.org/display/114772 16:58:49 so for print list with arbitrary separator (stored in a slot), i spent 3 minutes on trying to it with format, and then slapped myself and typed (defun join-categories) in 10 seconds 16:58:51 There's no shame in pulling in libraries. We have quicklisp. 17:01:39 sykopomp: now its better, but when I made that decision (to minimize dependencies), I had pretty bad expirience with hu.dwim packages, trying to install any of them ended up compiling 20 systems, then failing in the guts of some of their esoteric helper libraries that is used for bootstrapping by their (def) macro, which is used by by everything else 17:01:52 Actually, use quicklisp to pull ALL the libraries, and generate an image with them all loaded. 17:02:34 haha 17:02:42 it could always be worse, you could be compiling large C++ systems 17:02:54 actually, the first 10 elements should be "~10{~A~^~%~}" 17:03:12 Guthur: or you could be compiling large C++ systems as part of quickloading a lisp library D: 17:03:35 -!- Froward [~PANZERKON@64.134.47.94] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:04:00 sykopomp: possible, haven't seen that overly much 17:04:05 but that fails with ~^ 17:04:12 *maxm-* stupid mind can't decide between making a "yo dawg" joke or privatly betting with himself that conversation will end with someone doing it 17:04:18 -!- X-Scale [email@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:04:54 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-184.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:05:11 and I have reddit blocked for at least 2 months.. that stuff poisoned my mind 17:05:46 Froward [~PANZERKON@64.134.47.94] has joined #lisp 17:06:20 X-Scale` [email@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has joined #lisp 17:07:26 adeht: whats :% a newline? 17:07:27 and another one http://paste.lisp.org/display/93588 (especially see print-duration in annotation) 17:07:46 maxm: yes.. my out burrows "terminology" (as well as implementation) from format 17:07:48 -!- X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale`` 17:07:56 *borrows 17:07:58 -!- Joreji [~thomas@74-028.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:08:09 -!- X-Scale`` is now known as X-Scale 17:08:21 maxm: that's a difference from McDermott's. it makes it much more useful to me 17:09:19 you have it publicly released? 17:11:11 maxm: yes, https://github.com/death/constantia/blob/master/out.lisp (gave it already, sorry for spam) 17:11:42 github link is the new release :) 17:12:02 a cool 17:14:14 heh (defsubst) is clever, should probably go to alexandria 17:15:05 maxm: name may be confusing, since it doesn't do the same as Emacs Lisp's 17:16:14 whoever does alexandria seems to have good style for names, I can't think of good one right now 17:17:05 definline? 17:17:56 define-inline-function is more inline with rest of it 17:18:16 ie with-unique-names 17:18:27 I prefer `with-gensyms' :) 17:18:47 malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl4-152-26.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 17:22:45 maxm-: well, not depending on other libraries equals with not reusing code, which is quite hard to defend. and while it's a pain to deal with libs in cl, you also have the options to complain against the state of affairs, do something to make it better, or use quicklisp, which already made it much better... 17:23:08 yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:23:14 attila_lendvai: well an "low level" utility library is kind of a special case 17:23:49 attila_lendvai: I use 10+ other libraries in my actual projects that do useful stuff.. But imho something like logging library, or (definer) library or such is special case 17:23:51 maxm-: yes, and no. of course you make compromises, as I did with stefil. 17:24:48 and I'm all ears for those arcane bugs, at least a copy-paste of the output... otherwise it's unfair to complain here about them... :) 17:25:05 attila_lendvai: btw thanks for stefil, works pretty good 17:25:19 -!- lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@124.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:25:22 *attila_lendvai* checks the stefil current deps out of curiosity 17:25:57 attila_lendvai: you talking about hu.dwim? that was probably like 6 or 7 months ago, and I think I brought it up, and the fact that website was not working with firefox too 17:26:20 its fixed since then, I'm able to load all hu.dwim stuff with no problem now 17:26:58 wow, a single alexandria... I forgot it... :) but duplicates.lisp and all the #+nil'd inline-expanded macros are numerous, with all the burdens they bring 17:27:02 ikki [~ikki@200.95.163.92] has joined #lisp 17:27:54 well, I don't know of any bugs that makes our lib fail to load on a fairly recent sbcl 17:29:00 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-34.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:29:15 attila_lendvai: is there any way to make your definer more CLOS'able? 17:30:36 why would you want that? (def definer ...) is just a shortcut for defmacro and some goodies... but if you feel like, then you can do that from user code... 17:30:41 maxm-: a thought just occurred to me that while as you say: "it is better to try not to hard to use format for something more complex" is generally good advice, trouble is for me it falls flat because i am still learning lisp, and giving up would mean to give up learning. so as a newbie it is kinda harder to decide when to stop trying to use format 17:30:57 but anyways, I need to go to sleep... 17:31:05 let's get back to this some other time 17:31:17 good night guys 17:31:19 attila_lendvai: what time zone are you? 17:31:27 not in .hu? 17:31:28 +6 17:31:32 oh 17:31:34 no, .kz 17:31:42 ah, ok 17:32:01 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:32:04 attila_lendvai: I have a (with-qt) macro, that lets me do stuff like (scene.getView.setViewPort (new QRect 1 2 3 4))... 17:32:36 with the help of the following wrapper http://paste.lisp.org/display/128008 17:32:43 -!- scrimohsin [~m5j7j5h33@gateway/tor-sasl/scrimohsin] has left #lisp 17:32:57 I can write (def (method q) whatever .... body that uses the above with-qt stuff automatically) 17:36:24 its just so simple and elegant, I tried looking into hu.dwim.definer, and was kind of put off by huge number of dependencies, non-CLOS'ess and not immediately recognising how to do something like above 17:36:30 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 17:36:36 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@cpe-69-203-115-155.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: RomyRomy] 17:37:07 maxm- that works with non-qt data, like structs or classes? 17:37:53 kennyd: well, it works with whatever commonqt supports with their marshalling 17:38:08 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:39:23 its just a dumb recursive function (not using code walking), that replaces any CAR of list with multiple dots with it, ie (a.b.c args) becomes (qt-call "c" (qt-call "b" a) args) 17:39:28 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.111.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:39:41 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.52.65] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.4.1] 17:40:06 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:40:06 which is really useful, because Qt api is full of nested objects, so it sometimes takes 3-4 nested calls to reach an attribute setter/getter 17:40:28 kenanb [~user@94.54.237.227] has joined #lisp 17:41:25 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@212.71.14.175.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:41:59 theBlackDragon [~dragon@212.71.14.175.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:25 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-34.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:44:01 *maxm-* just recognized he could have used single parent class that both function-definer and method-definer derived from, to avoid code duplication in above paste 17:44:05 live and learn 17:44:46 defc class, def method, oh my... 17:44:51 -!- kenanb [~user@94.54.237.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:45:01 defc is (eval-always (def ...)) 17:45:02 kenanb [~user@94.54.237.227] has joined #lisp 17:45:15 demacs is very very useful man 17:45:55 in making code unreadable, of course 17:45:56 you get used to def macro, and ability to override flags like above, lets you wrap bodies of your defuns sand methods in consistent manner, based on "def" flags, 17:46:32 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.205.191] has joined #lisp 17:47:05 stassats: it takes a few days, but eventually you simply read (def (function e) foobar) as define exported foobar 17:47:50 kenanb` [~user@94.54.237.227] has joined #lisp 17:48:01 -!- rotty [~rotty@de.xx.vu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:48:07 until somebody starts using some another abomination? 17:48:22 rotty [~rotty@de.xx.vu] has joined #lisp 17:49:19 and I find (window.layout.addElement (new QStretcher 10 (Qt.horizontal))) much more readable then (#_addElement (#_layout window) (#_new QStrtcher 10 (#_Qt.horizontal)) ) 17:50:24 lots of people use their own anyway.. At least (def) is kind of semi-tandard, with several implementations, of which demacs is best one (due to easy of custizing with clos) 17:51:00 -!- zhangkaizhao [~zhangkaiz@27.47.15.138] has quit [Quit: ] 17:51:55 -!- kenanb [~user@94.54.237.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:52:13 thank gods i don't have to deal with such code 17:52:14 -!- kenanb` [~user@94.54.237.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:52:53 -!- ura [~ura@unaffiliated/ura] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:52:55 just of people on this channel, hu.dwim uses their own (def) with same flags syntax.. the GL games guy obviously uses his own home-grown version too 17:52:58 -!- dfox__ [~dfox@rei.ipv6.dfox.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:53:25 some popular webserver I forgot uses (defclass*), which is poors man (def ) 17:53:37 rme_ [~rme@50.43.133.173] has joined #lisp 17:54:05 there is obviously a need for such a library, closing one's eyes and ears and saying "do not want" won't change it. 17:54:05 yes, there're lots of bad code 17:54:43 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-386664.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 17:55:56 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129238200.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:56:11 lets agree to disagree :-) /me mumbles "purists and their ivory towers" silently 17:58:33 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 17:58:47 ISF_ [~ivan@187.106.53.231] has joined #lisp 18:01:18 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.106.53.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:01:36 -!- djuber [~user@c-76-16-60-176.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:01:36 sellout [~Adium@64.134.223.67] has joined #lisp 18:03:56 -!- ISF_ [~ivan@187.106.53.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:05:28 and it has nothing to do with purity 18:12:44 ura [~ura@unaffiliated/ura] has joined #lisp 18:13:01 dfox__ [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 18:16:03 -!- yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Quit: computer sleeping] 18:16:28 Enerccio [~enerccio@158.194.169.130] has joined #lisp 18:19:41 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-8-26.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:19:48 dto [~dto@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:05 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:22:04 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.163.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:23:40 -!- dfox__ is now known as dfox 18:25:21 -!- FireFly [~firefly@firefly.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Changing host] 18:25:21 FireFly [~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly] has joined #lisp 18:25:51 ISF_ [~ivan@187.106.53.231] has joined #lisp 18:26:30 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 18:30:46 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:34:39 cow-orker [~foobar@pogostick.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:39 ikki [~ikki@200.95.163.84] has joined #lisp 18:42:16 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@205.233.80.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:43:31 lemoinem [~swoog@52-73-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:35 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:45:56 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 18:45:56 Frowardly [~PANZERKON@64.134.47.94] has joined #lisp 18:46:56 Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:38 -!- Froward [~PANZERKON@64.134.47.94] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:51:33 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.235.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:54:47 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.67.206.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:55:32 -!- dtw [dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:56:29 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-213-41.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:32 zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:50 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:04:12 retupmoca [~retupmoca@99.181.132.232] has joined #lisp 19:06:18 I'm commander Shepard, and this is my favorite IRC channel on the citadel. 19:06:34 vairav [~vairav@209.49.23.82] has joined #lisp 19:07:37 -!- Frowardly [~PANZERKON@64.134.47.94] has left #lisp 19:07:52 m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.73] has joined #lisp 19:08:02 adeht: I have my own concept for a FORMAT replacement that's somewhat similar to your OUT, and I'd like to see how it compares. Could you please implement PRINT-XAPPING from http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node200.html#XAPPINGFORMATTABLE for comparison and evaluation purposes? 19:08:45 I think it's a nice "stress test" of capabilities for any would-be FORMAT replacement... 19:09:41 -!- Guthur [~user@host109-151-242-15.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:09:45 Hexstream, I think it'd look approx. like McDermott's 19:10:55 adeht: Well, I remember being vastly underwhelmed by McDermott's OUT, and yours looks much more interesting. 19:11:21 but the xapping test has mostly conditions/loops 19:11:29 *conditionals 19:11:38 Well, exactly. Your OUT doesn't support that?? 19:12:00 it does.. quite similarly to McDermott's 19:12:46 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable151.155-57-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:13:12 vigil_ante [~vigil@adsl-074-229-197-048.sip.mco.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:24 *Hexstream* reviews McDermott's implementation of PRINT-XAPPING... 19:14:52 a replacement for FORMAT?! 19:14:53 I really, really hate how with McDermott's OUT you have to constantly explicitly "quote" (:q) and "evaluate" (:e) things. That's a non-starter for me. 19:15:21 why is it bad? 19:15:24 Hexstream, my out also has :e.. but to get back to out you use (out ...) instead of :o 19:16:17 tomodo: It's pretty annoying. Imagine if you had to constantly explicitly quote and evaluate things whenever you use a macro... 19:16:32 hmmm.. like backquote? :) 19:17:32 Backquote is typically used to write macros, not invoke them (unless you want to pass a dynamically constructed list)... 19:18:08 well you don't have to use :e 19:18:19 it's just convenient some times 19:18:49 Like, imagine if you had to write (dolist ((:q element) (:e my-list)) (:e (do-whatever (:q element)))) or something. That's fucking ridiculous. 19:19:08 ? 19:19:09 but that's not OUT 19:19:35 with :e you need to distinguish between the things you want to evaluate and the things you want to print 19:19:46 hence two "modes" 19:20:21 Anyway, time to post an implementation of PRINT-XAPPING with my top-secret concept for a FORMAT replacement, I guess. 19:20:30 it's the same with, for example, with-html-output.. although yaclml takes a different (better imo) approach 19:20:32 *maxm-* has somewhat simular heuristic decision to make in (log:debug "whatever") vs (log:debug (form-returning-a-logger) "wahtever) 19:20:55 and solution is common sense, if its a literal string, then user wants to print it, otherwise its something to insert 19:22:24 http://paste.lisp.org/display/128010 19:22:26 dlowe: yay :) 19:22:43 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:22:53 Hexstream: what will the syntax be like? 19:22:55 ah, I see 19:24:57 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@host155.201-253-134.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 19:25:35 Hexstream, how does it know not to print the result of mapc 19:25:56 or nil if the when condition is false 19:26:01 adeht: Because it's used at "top-level"... 19:26:04 does it treat strings specially? 19:26:14 adeht: When at "top-level", yes. 19:26:45 At top-level, strings represent outputting the string, simply. 19:26:45 I don't like that 19:26:52 adeht: Why? 19:27:10 because you have to keep notice of what returns a string and what not 19:27:10 Algo [~Algo@unaffiliated/algorithmiccontr] has joined #lisp 19:27:16 https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/423831_10150590402058161_662528160_9167277_1124427284_n.jpg 19:27:26 Should they not be saying C++? Or it's that they don't like to say out loud, names of DISEASES? 19:27:31 I used this "top-level" concept quite effectively for an HTML library I wrote and used some time ago (it's awaiting cleanup..) 19:27:52 adeht: No, no. It's not what you think. 19:28:07 All that's checked if is a string is at top-level *at compile-time*. 19:28:25 Somewhat like docstrings and declarations. 19:28:28 huh? 19:28:29 One with a LISP finds it hard to say 'C'. 19:28:53 Hexstream, how does it know not to print the result of mapc, but print the result of the first if expression 19:29:53 adeht: First of all, both the first IF and the MAPC are at top-level. 19:30:14 imho with a single utility macro like (prinj list separator), entry thing would look more clearly just using plain (prin1 and princ) 19:30:20 Algo: ahahahah 19:30:27 ~FORMAT (also called lispy-format) recognizes these forms, at compile-time, and knows how to walk them and interpret them to produce the right code. 19:30:43 fe[nl]ix: a bit out of the blue? 19:30:48 you _walk_ them? 19:31:04 the if statement would look like (princ (if (xvector-xapping) "[" "{")) 19:31:28 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.163.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:31:47 Hexstream: I usually call that with-output-to-string 19:31:53 adeht: Sure, the ~FORMAT-specific syntax is walked, at "top-level". The normal lisp code is treated as entirely opaque. This is how seamless mixing of ~FORMAT-specific and normal lisp syntax is achieved. 19:32:17 Cosman246: :p 19:32:26 Does someone have an idea for sbcl, inlined labels, and heap overflow? http://paste.lisp.org/display/128011 19:33:07 Hexstream, maybe I misunderstand something. do you have any code specific to walking IF forms? 19:33:16 dlowe: Please implement PRINT-XAPPING with WITH-OUTPUT-TO-STRING and see what happens... 19:33:21 Hexstream: I can't wait to see ~FORMAT 19:33:37 http://newartisans.com/2009/03/hello-haskell-goodbye-lisp/ Oops, it seems Haskell does not have macros! Haskell is a Blub. 19:33:43 Cosman246: Sarcastic or for real? ;P 19:34:11 for reals 19:34:21 Algo: indeed 19:34:45 Hexstream: What do you expect would happen? 19:35:08 dlowe: It won't be pretty. Or at least, not half as pretty as what I posted. 19:35:13 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 19:35:42 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.73] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:35:59 Algo: I'm actually a bit scared of Haskell's imposition of FP on the user 19:36:02 I did my share of "WITH-OUTPUT-TO-STRING as replacement for FORMAT". It's just not compelling at all in practice, I found. I always found myself wishing for FORMAT features. 19:36:33 Hexstream: uh, so use format on the string-stream 19:37:29 m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.73] has joined #lisp 19:37:37 adeht: A IF at "top-level" is interpreted as (if fully-evaluated-normal-lisp-test top-level-~format-expression-then top-level-~format-expression-else). 19:37:54 Cosman246: why 19:38:13 actually, since print-xapping takes a stream, you don't even need with-output-to-string 19:38:24 Hexstream, I doubly like it less now :) 19:38:33 you can just use a less pathological use of format 19:38:34 dlowe: Why? 19:38:34 Algo: I like multi-paradigm stuff 19:38:55 Hexstream, also how does something like (format nil "~8,'0X" foo) look 19:38:58 Hexstream: because you can output directly to the stream without an intermediary buffer 19:38:59 "I don't like it" is not actionable criticism... 19:39:31 That's the usual criticism of format, just behind "extensibility" 19:39:35 dlowe: So what? My ~FORMAT won't use an intermediary buffer either... 19:39:56 symm- [~symm-@178.168.29.31] has joined #lisp 19:40:48 Hexstream: I don't think you've demonstrated substantial gains over PROGN 19:41:21 dlowe, maybe because xapping is mostly conditionals/loops 19:41:55 dlowe: I guess I'd have to waste my time implementing PRINT-XAPPING with PROGN sometime... 19:41:59 but how would it handle my test case for example 19:42:08 Where? 19:42:09 Sure. xapping is truly and intentionally a retarded case for or against format 19:42:22 Hexstream, (format nil "~8,'0X" foo) 19:42:34 Oh, sorry, I was getting to that. 19:43:15 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:44:08 (~format (~ stream) (~X :width 8 :pad #\0) foo) 19:44:44 why is foo outside the (~X ...) 19:44:47 Or (~format (~ stream) (~X :w 8 :pad 0) foo), maybe. 19:45:41 adeht: Because this more clearly separates the special ~FORMAT commands from normal evaluated code. 19:45:50 I think that reveals one criticism behind my distaste for its aesthetic 19:46:04 it doesn't use the usual scoping rules 19:47:27 I'm not sure what you mean. It sounds like a pretty theoretical objection. 19:48:48 -!- Ashii [~Ashii@c-2457e255.246-1-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:48:58 djuber [~user@c-76-16-60-176.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:17 at the moment it's an aesthetic objection; I haven't thought deeply about it 19:49:39 Conciseness is a strong design goal of ~format. It doesn't necessarily need to be just as concise as FORMAT in all cases, but it must be relatively close if it's to stand a chance at replacing it... 19:50:14 johan____ [~johan@78-23-137-2.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 19:50:50 what does that have to do with conciseness? (~X foo :w 8 :pad #\0) would be just as concise if not more 19:51:07 adeht: Great attitude! I don't fully remember all the design decisions I took and why when I designed this, but I thought a lot about it and I also had your same "philosophical objection" at first, but I've tried it and saw that it worked nicely in practice. 19:51:52 it reminds me Arc's cond 19:52:00 *of 19:52:36 adeht: thry probably call it cnd 19:52:43 or maybe just c 19:52:48 for brevity 19:52:56 -!- johan____ [~johan@78-23-137-2.access.telenet.be] has quit [Client Quit] 19:54:24 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:45 adeht: Often you don't need arguments for ~format commands (just as with FORMAT), and I like, say, (defun hello (person balance) (~format (~ stream) "Hello" ~A person ", your current balance is " ~money balance ".")) better than (defun hello (person balance) (~format (~ stream) "Hello" (~A person) ", your current balance is " (~money balance) ".")) 19:56:02 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 19:56:11 yoklov [~yoklov@c-76-127-240-20.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:10 have you thought of maybe using a reader macro to make it look less unnutural? 19:57:29 and some option of --long vs -s(short) options, kind of like getopts 19:57:38 to provide for different strokes for different folks 19:57:39 maxm-: Nope. I don't see how a reader macro would "make it look less unnatural". I'm not a reader-macros fan. 19:58:22 also IMHO one of the problems with format is the ~ character itself 19:58:41 Ok, I think I have a bit of a better argument... It's better to separate what's evaluated from what isn't, as you can then easily manipulate the structure of ~format expressions, and pass evaluated arguments separately. 19:58:50 it clashes badly readability wise with alphanumeric letters.. % is much easier to spot at a glance 19:58:54 Perhaps I am being obtuse, but I am not sure why people are writing a better format. 19:59:07 pnathan: You're being obtuse. 19:59:40 Ah, okay then. 19:59:43 -!- kai__ [~kai@f052101053.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:00:58 Hexstream, I would have thought manipulating (... whatever ...) would be easier in most use-cases than (.. part1 ..) (.. part2 ..) 20:01:43 RomyRomy [~stickycak@pool-74-108-232-183.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:31 Ok, one thing you have to realize is that my original concept allowed (required, even) to completely separate the ~format commands from the evaluated arguments, mirroring FORMAT. And that's still a capability I want to retain, so that you can write ~format functions naturally, using exactly the same syntax as ~format except you omit evaluated arguments... 20:03:54 -!- cow-orker [~foobar@pogostick.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:04:42 also having special meaning for names like ~A is a bit icky. I followed McDermott's (:keyword ...) style for specialized operators 20:04:52 You could write new ~format function by combining existing ones, and this would be understandable at compile-time, instead of just being an opaque function, so it could be analyzed and optimized easily... 20:04:59 cow-orker [~foobar@pogostick.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:13 adeht: It's not special meaning. They're just normal symbols. 20:05:31 Hexstream, completely separate? but you interlace them 20:05:40 Note that WHEN is a ~format keyword just as much as ~A is. 20:05:59 (When used at "top-level".) 20:06:34 Hexstream, but they have special meaning in a ~FORMAT form 20:06:41 If you use ~A at non-top-level, you'll get a normal lisp "undefined function" error. The function and ~format namespaces are separate. 20:06:54 what would (let ((~A "foo")) (~format (~ stream) ~A)) do 20:07:42 adeht: "Missing argument to ~format ~A." 20:08:00 (let ((~A "foo")) (~format (~ stream) ~A ~A)) would print "foo". 20:08:28 The first ~A is a top-level ~format command, while the second ~A is just a normal evaluated argument for the previous ~A. 20:08:53 kai_ [~kai@f052101053.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:09:29 By the way, printing a number in roman numerals would just be ~roman my-number. 20:10:19 cbp`` [~user@187.193.209.109] has joined #lisp 20:10:22 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:10:43 adeht: Here are some notes I took about FORMAT (particularly : and @): http://paste.lisp.org/display/128010#2 20:11:31 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:11:42 (Well, not superbly readable, but it was intended for personal use...) 20:12:09 Hexstream, I also have support for that.. (:r number :roman) 20:12:19 http://okmij.org/ftp/Computation/Generative.html woot! 20:12:37 -!- cbp` [~user@187.208.9.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:13:13 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:13:33 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 20:13:36 adeht: Why not just (:roman number)?... Old FORMAT tended to pack sometimes-disparate operations under a single operator because it had a limited namespace, but with s-expressions and symbols, we don't have that limitation... 20:13:49 Hexstream, adeht: now combine your libraries.. for exponential increase in awesomeness 20:14:19 -!- ko1 [~k11@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:14:44 I think my ~format concept stands very well on its own. 20:14:49 so you can use both (:a) for purists and ~a for hackers.. Personally I would have preferred %a, since we fixing format, can just as well bring it to 21st century 20:14:57 Hexstream, because I assume previous background knowledge of format.. I did however consolidate some format features and fixed others 20:15:34 adeht: Right, both syntaxes could be accepted. 20:16:34 maxm-: %a is entirely unacceptable, sorry. Because of the nice convention of prefixing % to internal symbols. 20:16:34 % prefix for format flags dates back to at least 1989 20:16:38 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:16:41 Hexstream, yep.. also a user can define his own operations using his own (preferably non-keyword) symbol... like (:u money amount :currency :ils) or whatever 20:17:01 Whereas ~a is immediately recognizable as ~format-specific. 20:17:17 All of this is cutting away the conciseness of format strings 20:17:45 tcr, I don't value character-level conciseness so highly 20:17:50 I'd experiment and go for a (format-let ((~A #'function)) ) kind of thing 20:18:06 ikki [~ikki@200.95.163.27] has joined #lisp 20:18:20 tcr, I prefer (:d foo :width 8 :pad-char #\0 :base 16) to the obscure "~8,'0X" 20:18:20 I think there's a point for it in case of string interpolation 20:19:19 tcr: Not by much. And s-expressions are easier to spread over several lines than strings... 20:19:32 well, I'd rather like to give that a name and use that, (format-let ((~/MAC/ )) (format nil "~/MAC/ -> ~/MAC/ ")) 20:20:29 (~d :w 8 :pad 0 :base 16) foo is concise enough for me... 20:20:31 notice that these things are not mutually exclusive 20:20:32 (outs (mac x) " -> " (mac y)) 20:20:40 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-11.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:21:26 Didn't you come here to ask for feedback? 20:21:30 Ah wait. Make that (~hex :w 8) 20:22:33 adeht: Yes, my point is that it should be possible to define MAC locally. 20:23:28 tcr, sure, if you want to work with format :) 20:23:28 osa1 [~sinan@31.140.42.184] has joined #lisp 20:23:45 ? 20:23:57 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@110.62-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:24:19 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@pool-74-108-232-183.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: RomyRomy] 20:24:22 tcr, my mac function could be a local function 20:24:39 Being able to define an output specifier locally is a clear expressive advantage over FORMAT other than just syntax. 20:24:53 cool then 20:25:04 -!- [SLB] [~balthasar@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: [ Close the World, Open the nExt ]] 20:26:41 ko1 [~k11@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 20:28:52 HaroBin [~Haro@pool-68-238-248-222.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:53 though your idea has some analogous feature that I haven't thought about.. e.g., (let-out-alias (((:x value &rest args) (:d value :base 16 args))) (out ... (:x 123 :width 8 :base 16)) 20:29:27 maybe it's overkill 20:29:42 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.111.36] has joined #lisp 20:29:51 hello, could anyone guide me towards any resources for designing a non-destructive sort, preferably mergesort or quicksort 20:30:21 -!- X-Scale [email@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:31:14 obviously didn't need the inner base 16.. currently I'd do (macrolet ((x (value &rest args))) `(outs (:d ,x :base 16 ,@args)))) (out ... (x 123 :width 8 :pad-char #\0))) 20:31:24 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-35-55-23.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:02 HaroBin: copy-seq 20:32:10 HaroBin, (defun sort* (sequence predicate ...) (sort (copy-seq sequence) predicate ...) 20:32:32 -!- dto [~dto@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:32:42 (defun non-destructive-sort (seq pred &rest args) (apply 'sort (copy-seq seq) pred args)) 20:32:46 hmm missing paren 20:32:58 DEFINE-~FORMAT usage draft: http://paste.lisp.org/display/128010#3 20:32:59 adeht:  is not cl, it's scheme. 20:33:09 [SLB] [~slabua@host248-53-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:33:09 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host248-53-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 20:33:09 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 20:33:20 pjb, my ... was meant to be replaced with &key start end etc. 20:33:23 okay cool, thank you 20:33:54 pjb, since &rest wouldn't look as useful in the minibuffer 20:36:08 X-Scale [email@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has joined #lisp 20:36:16 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Client Quit] 20:36:33 [SLB] [~slabua@host248-53-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:36:33 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host248-53-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 20:36:33 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 20:37:05 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:38:31 Hexstream: imho it wouldl look better if you had some built-in thing for printing X joined lists 20:38:34 Subfusc [~Subfusc@tjenen.de] has joined #lisp 20:38:52 ngz [~user@69.205.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:01 Hexstream: most people start to get into trouble with format when they need to print multiple entries, separated by something, with both entries and separator being conditional 20:39:23 hi 20:39:50 Hexstream: maybe ~J (for join), or loop-type syntax joining (form-producing an element) of (form producing list) by (form-producing separator) 20:40:00 RomyRomy [~stickycak@pool-74-108-232-183.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:00 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@pool-74-108-232-183.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:41:00 RomyRomy [~stickycak@pool-74-108-232-183.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:05 -!- rvrebane [~rvrebane@valjapaas.vkhk.ee] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:41:19 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@pool-74-108-232-183.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:41:30 RomyRomy [~stickycak@pool-74-108-232-183.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:13 Hexstream: well on the 2nd read you seem to already process 'mapc specially, so I guess mapc is your join.. Imho needs different name, maybe :mapc? coz I was confused for a second thinking it was real mapc 20:44:53 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 20:48:02 maxm-: I was away. Let me think... 20:49:41 Hexstream: teh point I guess I'm trying to make, at single glance at (loop) or (iterate) form, its kind of obvious that (collect) is a special thing that it handles separately, because there is no standard (collect) 20:49:58 -!- yoklov [~yoklov@c-76-127-240-20.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: computer sleeping] 20:50:35 but with first glance at ~format, people will get confused that toplevel forms are named same as standard ones, but are handled specially. 20:50:45 -!- benny [~benny@i577A284B.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:50:48 First of all, MAPC is typically used for side-effects only and the value it returns ignored... 20:51:05 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 20:51:23 well, guess one can get used to it.. Just trying to offer constructive criticism 20:52:07 maxm-: Well, I'm quite comfortable with the concept of different namespaces and having a "top-level". It's true that it hasn't been use much traditionally, but it's learnable. 20:52:33 I really appreciate the feedback. The worst thing is oblivion. 20:54:41 The thing one has to understand is that ~format is side-effects only. Therefore, the only useful semantics of having a literal string at its top-level is to output it to the string. 20:54:51 to the stream, I mean. 20:55:29 Wait, why is ~format side-effects only? 20:55:49 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584440.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:56:15 So I think it's not really hard to guess what (if (xectorp xapping) "[" "{") does at top-level of ~format, if one is not familiar... 20:57:18 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:57:21 Sgeo: What would you propose instead? 20:57:37 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 20:57:55 Hexstream: I think the part that confusing to me, to compare it with loop and iterate.. In loop, its immediately obvious that "when whatver" or "if whataver" is not CL:IF, because its not in parenthhesis 20:58:14 Hexstream: in iterate, (if) and (when) are in fact real if and when, since it does code walking 20:58:28 I may not have been paying close enough attention. Why not return the resulting string instead of printing it? 20:58:47 but in ~format, (if) looks like normal if, but its not.. personally I would have either switched to loop-like (get rid of parenthesis), or used (:if) 20:59:00 drwho [~drwho@216-122-174-206.gci.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:01 -!- nha [~prefect@5-74.104-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:59:15 Sgeo: Well, first of all returning things tends to cons. That's not something you want for a FORMAT replacement, I think. 20:59:17 Sgeo: one of advantages of (format ...) is that it does its thing without consing 20:59:44 daem0n [~Mr@unaffiliated/mryaargh] has joined #lisp 21:02:00 hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584440.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:02:09 maxm-: Any values returned to the ~format top-level are just ignored. Therefore, using things like IF at top-level is only useful for its side-effects, and things like (if (xectorp xapping) "[" "{") have just one useful semantics, which is outputting "[" if (xectorp xapping) is true, else "{". 21:02:12 Hexstream, btw how do you have something like (format nil "~(~{~A~^ ~}~)~%" things) 21:02:50 maxm-: It's nice to be able to reuse normal lisp knowledge and, for example, SLIME hinting. 21:03:21 adeht: ~( upcases I think?... 21:03:46 downcases, but same question applies 21:04:51 Wow. FORMAT is still the topic. 21:05:06 sykopomp: Well, we're not going in circles. 21:05:23 going in squiggleys ~~~ 21:05:41 ehe 21:05:51 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 21:06:28 adeth: (~format (~ nil) (~downcase (dolist (~ things) ~A ~ ~^ " ")) ~%) 21:06:35 adeht, I mean. 21:06:58 Hexstream, so now you put the value form inside the formatting form 21:07:14 adeht: Yes, because it's a "wrapping" kind of thing. 21:07:31 Sometimes you just don't have the choice. 21:08:31 what's the meaning of the sole squiggly in the dolist 21:08:57 oh 21:08:58 adeht: "Return next arg and avance cursor position to next one". 21:09:17 yeah just picked it up 21:09:19 advance* 21:10:29 can you use a vector of things? 21:11:04 adeht: Well, sure, why not. And a string is a vector... 21:11:45 well, don't you need another operator to be treated specially for that 21:12:21 what if the programmer comes up with his own collection abstraction? 21:13:04 adeht: You could use a ~format-specific MAP. That would reuse the cl:map symbol, so no annoying conflicts, and you get slime hinting for free. 21:13:05 Hexstream: since you doing all of that expansion at compile time 21:13:20 you can do it in generic function, specialized on form 21:13:55 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:14:51 (~format (~ nil) (~downcase (dolist (~ '(a b c)) "-->" ~^ " and then ")) ".") would produce "-->A and then -->B and then -->C". 21:14:59 imho problem with people writing macro systems, and then wondering why ppl don't expand them 21:15:24 is because they failed to use CLOS.. demacs and how easy it was to add flags to (def (function ..)) opened my eyes 21:15:29 adeht: As ~format will be completely extensible, it will be able to deal with user-defined abstractions seamlessly... 21:15:54 timack [~timack@hlfx59-1-134.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 21:16:03 demacs? 21:16:24 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.163.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:16:44 Its a (def (function|method|class e) NAME ) expander, simular to original cl-def, and to hu.dwim.def (in fact flags are same) 21:16:46 I'm pretty careful about using the same "user definition" mechanisms to implement "primitives", to avoid annoying limitations. 21:16:53 but its CLOS based, so very easy to add stuff 21:17:48 its not popular due to the unfortunate name, author is turkish and probably did not realized how easily its confused with something emacs related: name, apparently author 21:18:01 here is my fork with a few bugs fixed: https://github.com/7max/demacs 21:18:29 maxm-: I doubt the name is the sole cause of lack of popularity... 21:18:58 and here is how I use it to make (def (function q) function-that-uses-qt () ...) to automatically go through with-qt convertor http://paste.lisp.org/display/128008 21:20:03 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 21:20:49 Hexstream: well I have not seen any other valid critisisms of it, but its not well known comparing to cl-def, defclass-star, and such (which author wanted to emulate,but do it the "right way"), in which imho he succeeded 21:21:00 I'd like (def (type name) ...) better than (def type name ...). For one thing, you could do (def #'foo ...). I'd also like "define" more than "def", though that's easy to fix... 21:21:16 nenorbot [~chawls@77.127.218.123] has joined #lisp 21:21:39 maxm-: I did not know cl-def, defclass-star and such are well-known. 21:21:46 Hexstream: well you also needed to put flags somewhere, and cl-def already had the (def (type flags) name ...rest...) syntax 21:22:18 Wrapping DEFCLASS and such with trivial "conveniences" is a typical newb reaction, so it's tempting to dismiss it. 21:22:19 and beleive me (def (class nc) ... ) is a godsend.. All slots get initargs and accessors automatically, and those are exported automatically too. 21:22:36 [SLB] [~slabua@host248-53-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 21:22:36 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host248-53-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 21:22:36 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 21:22:40 maxm-: That's horrible style, IMHO. 21:23:07 ^ 21:23:21 nope.. I'm a human, I want to do human things, rather then add 20 new accessors to my package. (yes I know about slime export class thing).. But if a computer will do it for me, why not 21:23:22 -!- timack [~timack@hlfx59-1-134.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:23:24 I don't like the auto-export bit, the rest is fine 21:23:28 You're making the same mistakes as DEFSTRUCT, except even worse. 21:23:33 maxm: what happens when someone else comes up with a meaning for q define option 21:23:45 java people managed to live with specifying "public" right next to the thing they want public, so why not lisp 21:24:10 adeht: ah, but you see, my methods were specilazied on my own calss 21:24:43 maxm-: What accessors to export or not is a pretty central design issue. I don't want to defaut to "let's just export fucking everything". 21:24:44 maxm- is that part demacs? (def (class ..)) 21:24:51 (defc function-definer (demacs:function-definer)), and I shadowed it in the import, so its only for my own package 21:24:58 yea 21:25:20 I also don't like "let's generate an awful lot of symbols by concatenation". 21:25:31 ^ 21:25:37 ^^ 21:25:38 maxm: how does that affect a form like (def (function q) foo () ...) 21:25:44 Hexstream: at the same time, it's not like Lisp is a stranger to that. See DEFSTRUCT. 21:25:52 kennyd: yes.. Its really awesome tiny little known package. I tried switching to hu.dwim, but its a mostrosity comparing to demacs, which is kind of clean/simple 21:26:26 maxm- thanks I'll take a look. looks interesting 21:26:45 sykopomp: I consider DEFSTRUCT to be a relic of the past. We could just have normal DEFCLASS with (:metaclass structure), with none of the DEFSTRUCT autogen nonsense. 21:26:52 adeht: the "def" for function type, lookups "~A-definer" symbol in the current package, and does make-instance on it 21:27:11 :X 21:27:16 Remember: "Common Lisp is politics, not art". 21:27:18 Hexstream: fair enough. I've grown fond of a certain level of restricted symbol generation. 21:27:25 LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-8-26.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:33 I spent a while writing a bunch of defgenerics 21:27:52 for whenever I was defining a protocol (I define defgenerics for all readers/writers/accessors, too) 21:28:04 maxm: current package at what time? 21:28:25 adeht: whatever time macroexpansion is called, for SBCL that is at compile time 21:28:30 at that point, it's like "...why?" 21:28:46 but *package* will be your package when file is compiled or loaded... 21:29:19 -!- TheMue [~TheMue@p5DDF5608.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: TheMue] 21:29:33 so if I (in-package :my) and do (your::def ....) it'll mess up? 21:30:05 so if you want to add your own flags, what you do is use (import-from :demacs :def) instead of (use :demacs).. Then do (def class function-definer (demacs:function-definer) ()), and bam, you can write methods on specializing on whenever "def" expands functions 21:30:27 also, how would you combine two `q' extensions 21:31:25 francogrex [~user@109.130.9.97] has joined #lisp 21:31:32 adeht: well you can't in the end you'll something has to be unique about both. I'll just choose different letter for my own flag 21:31:36 -!- EyesIsServer [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:32:09 In the building of sbcl, threads are enable by default i thought, but it's not. What cammand should i issue to enable multi threading? 21:32:20 *maxm-* thought about adding long-form flags in the form of :keywords, (thats what hu.dwim.def guys did), but abandoned an idea.. Letters are short and to the point, and there are plenty of them 21:33:30 EyesIsServer [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 21:35:02 maxm: it looks to me like there are internal conflicts in the design of the library.. on the one hand it wants to be extensible.. but on the other it uses chars for designation 21:36:32 adeht: I beleive this is historic, due to him try to be compatible with cl-def, which he initially used 21:37:31 but its fine with me.. When looking at (def ..) form things I want to stand out is what is being defined (ie class or such), and its name..Flags are there, and are unobrtusive 21:38:14 maxm: well personally I don't like the idea of a generic def anyway 21:38:32 ie (def (class nca) myclass) ... flags are automatically generate :initargs, automatically generate accessors in form of slot-of, and automatically export class and accessors 21:38:48 Personally I'm interested in a generic def, but demacs is still totally unappealing to me... 21:39:29 adeht: to each his own, but once in a while you'll find yourself thinking "I wish there was an easy way to wrap all my defuns with something".. 21:39:29 maxm- shouldn't this create name, age methods? or am I reading docs wrong. (def (class nc) person () (name age)) 21:39:52 your syntax for the class is wrong, each slot has to be in its own list 21:40:02 ah 21:40:03 try (def (class nc) person () ((name) (age))) 21:40:19 then C-c C-m it in slime and see result 21:41:41 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.106.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:41:51 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.10.39] has joined #lisp 21:41:55 -!- EyesIsServer [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 21:42:19 If I were to use a generic definition facility, it would be one that pretty aggressively reuses the normal syntax of the normal CL definition operators. 21:43:39 -!- sellout [~Adium@64.134.223.67] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:43:49 EyesIsServer [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 21:43:57 Hexstream: how would it look? def looks fine, if you load the provided emacs support (ie indents and fontifies niecly) 21:44:43 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-184.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:45:04 maxm-: Just normal stuff, (define (class my-class) (whatever superclasses) (whatever slots)), (define #'my-function (whatever args)), etc. 21:45:15 where would you put flags 21:45:20 No special extra-clever "convenience" semantics. 21:45:25 maxm-: What flags. 21:45:29 so it only generates/exports things for you based on the flags - I could dig that. 21:45:35 if it just wraps, whats the point, it does many other useful things, which user should be able to turn on/off 21:45:57 ie export, generate accessors, generate initargs, export accessors, inline, etc.. 21:46:09 maxm-: I don't feel a need for such features. At least not in that form. 21:46:17 where could I find a good overview on compilation and package management? I am finding using libraries in REPL much different than trying to get them working in my compiled programs. Also my .fasl says illegal sharp macro character which is a bit baffling because I was under impression once compiled I would have a chunk of machine code, not something that's going to sit there and give me very Lispy errors. 21:46:21 yea just (def class something ...) just expands into (defclass class something) 21:46:38 sezo [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 21:46:48 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 21:47:39 but (def (class flags) something) expands into defclass with things added. And the best thing about it you can use CLOS to add your own flags, per package (it will only affect your system, not others) 21:48:08 Hexstream: will you document this? 21:48:09 anyway, it works for me, i used it for 4+ years and its really cool.. No one forcing you to look at it :-) 21:48:18 I guess you could have a custom metaclass that accepts special class arguments and slot arguments that will generate stuff, if you're so inclined. But really, I'm quite content with actually thinking about and writing out stuff like accessors explicitly. 21:48:57 Cosman246: Document what? 21:49:47 Anyway, I intend to document 100% of my new released projects from now on. I also intend to polish and document 100% of my already-released projects, but that will take many years. 21:50:26 -!- SHODAN [~shozan@c-a9b1e253.011-86-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:50:30 urandom__ [~user@p548A5828.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:53 And I'm talking about real documentation, not half-baked autogenerated crap. 21:50:57 Hexstream: ~format 21:50:59 yay 21:52:02 SHODAN [~shozan@c-a9b1e253.011-86-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:52:08 Kinda crucial for my projects, because I tend to write stuff that introduces some new paradigms and ways of thinking, so just telling people to read the source is not really a workable policy. 21:52:42 -!- bjonnh [~bjonnh@2a01:e35:8a53:8940:21e:64ff:fe84:8986] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:53:04 And since on average lispers don't document stuff, my projects will shine particularly brightly. ;P 21:53:20 Thank you 21:53:21 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-097-177.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 21:53:34 I might incorporate it into mftl 21:53:57 Like, how successful would Edi Weitz be without documentation, exactly?! 21:54:43 Cosman246: mftl?... Is that yet another personal utilities library? o_o 21:54:53 mftl = my favorite toy lisp 21:54:57 It's not actually a lisp 21:55:04 just a document I keep around 21:55:10 specifying my ideal lisp 21:55:18 what do you recommend for creating a simple tcp server? plain usocket or is there something higher level 21:55:23 Eventually, I might implement it. Who knows? 21:55:27 Cosman246: K, well, better not talk about it in this Common Lisp-specific channel, probably. 21:55:46 sezo: usocket is really easy, yes. 21:55:56 -!- osa1 [~sinan@31.140.42.184] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:56:16 I've decided to call it KoiosLisp, after the titan 21:56:26 *sykopomp* is working on some unreleased stuff that uses iolib that could make it even simpler than usocket. 21:56:26 sezo, I like iolib if you're using linux 21:56:45 ok I'll take a look. it said thin layer over sockets so I thought it would be quite low level 21:57:06 yoklov [~yoklov@c-76-127-240-20.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:34 sykopomp, I think I saw some of your (released) stuff re that.. looked like code I wrote some years ago :) 21:58:04 adeht: which stuff? 21:58:13 (and do you still have said years-ago code lying around?) 21:58:48 sykopomp, https://github.com/sykopomp/conserv/blob/master/conserv.lisp 21:59:21 adeht: https://github.com/sykopomp/conserv/blob/develop/examples/echo.lisp more up-to-date than master :) 21:59:21 sykopomp, yeh.. it's part of an old project called FEMALE (FEarsomely MAssive LEecher :) 22:00:05 sykopomp, for events I used the code in my constantia lib (see event.lisp) 22:00:44 adeht: I skimmed over that file. Wasn't sure how it would be used. 22:01:32 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:04:17 adeht: FEMALE doesn't seem to be on github :( 22:04:42 "female death" also doesn't seem like something I want to google :S 22:05:05 sykopomp, it's not public.. here's the connection module: http://paste.lisp.org/display/128017 22:05:27 dlowe: it was for your remarks about cl-irc and drakma 22:05:55 rtoym: ping 22:06:44 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.9.97] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:07:08 ello what's the best route to take when starting out with lisp? 22:07:29 daem0n: Common Lisp + Emacs + SBCL + Slime + Quicklisp. 22:07:30 I mean which ide and scheme or common? 22:07:31 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 22:07:34 fe[nl]ix: Yes? 22:07:35 right then 22:07:36 + PCL 22:07:38 :) 22:07:43 Right. + PCL. 22:08:06 thanks 22:09:01 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@pool-74-108-232-183.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: RomyRomy] 22:09:05 daem0n: install emacs, install a lisp implementation (probably SBCL), go to http://www.quicklisp.org/beta and follow instructions (read the SLIME instructions there, too), and finally pick up a copy of PCL (online at http://gigamonkeys.com/book) 22:09:53 shouldn't take you longer than 10 minutes to have the whole stack up and running, and you can come ask for help if the universe implodes while you try. 22:10:06 *daem0n* gives sykopomp & Hexstream a cake 22:10:14 happy hacking :) 22:10:36 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 22:10:39 glhf! 22:10:49 daem0n, for reference, this is a Common Lisp channel, so people in here will tend to suggest CL over Scheme 22:11:10 alrighty 22:11:21 RomyRomy [~stickycak@pool-74-108-232-183.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:12:31 You'll also want to familiarize yourself with the CLHS early and often: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/index.htm It's no tutorial, but it's the definitive reference on Common Lisp. 22:12:35 hmmm looks like it's a fairly old commit.. (on vacation and only have repos from backup) 22:12:58 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@pool-74-108-232-183.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:13:05 rtoym: I see that 20c contains a clx.asd and I got a Gentoo bug report that it interferes with the one installed via the package manager 22:13:56 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 22:13:57 rtoym: are the differences to Krystof's clx so many that it's still necessary to bundle it ? 22:14:38 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-8-165.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:27 fe[nl]ix: A few years ago Fred killed cmucl's clx in favor of portable clx. There might be a few minor differences. 22:16:35 *hefner* hopes there are not still CLX forks in the wild that never merged fixes from telent/krystof's clx 22:17:17 rtoym: so it's alright if I delete the bundled one ? 22:17:55 I think there is one difference with open-clx that never made it back to telent clx. Something about get-best-authorization. I'll have to check the logs or do some diffs. 22:19:23 sykopomp: what in iolib is more complicated than usocket ? 22:19:32 -!- kpal [~kpal@5ac28f67.bb.sky.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:20:40 fe[nl]ix: IOlib is bigger, and when I was first learning socket stuff, it seemed more intimidating. usocket's API is miniscule, but it obviously can't do all the things IOlib can do. 22:21:21 fe[nl]ix: I'm also running the quicklisp version of iolib, although I'm told there's an updated version that hasn't made it into quicklisp that has a C dependency. I'd also consider that "more complexity" 22:21:55 to install, not to use the API 22:23:34 ikki [~ikki@200.95.163.68] has joined #lisp 22:26:03 I'm reconsidering using iolib because of libfixposix, too. Not everyone runs debian/ubuntu, and I'd rather my library be easily quicklisp-installable without fiddling around with external C deps. :\ 22:26:27 RomyRomy [~stickycak@pool-74-108-232-183.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:03 sykopomp: which is why I simulated a multiplexer with usocket 22:29:36 -!- ghoti- [4c1b035d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.27.3.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:29:48 RomyRomy_ [~stickycak@pool-74-108-232-183.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:29:53 -!- nenorbot [~chawls@77.127.218.123] has quit [] 22:30:02 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@pool-74-108-232-183.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 22:30:02 -!- RomyRomy_ is now known as RomyRomy 22:30:13 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:30:45 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:31:01 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@pool-74-108-232-183.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:31:44 libfixposix ? O_o 22:31:58 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.111.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:35:09 sykopomp: I don't run debian/ubuntu either and compiling the library is really easy 22:36:12 Ashii [~Ashii@c-2457e255.246-1-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 22:36:17 fe[nl]ix: is it as easy as (ql:quickload 'iolib)? 22:36:40 *maxm-* has no problem with libs including C helpers, as long as they are part of the source.. see commonqt for example 22:36:58 or CPAN perl modules also do it the right way (which is if you installit it just works) 22:37:17 maxm-: ditto. 22:39:29 Sorta depends on a working C dev environment, but that should be standard anyway. :p 22:40:38 fe[nl]ix: is there something stopping libfixposix from simply being packaged along with iolib? 22:40:47 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-34.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:40:48 ASDF 22:41:08 is there an accepted practice for how to integrate C code into an ASDF system? (like, how to compile the C files) 22:41:25 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:41:34 no 22:41:42 Joreji [~thomas@74-028.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:42:10 Shouldn't one be developed? 22:42:27 well, a couple of projects do it already. I wonder what they do. 22:43:35 ASDF has no mechanism for configuring a system, i.e. passing (and perhaps storing locally) some compile-time parameters 22:43:45 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 22:44:16 they do it by having a normal makefile or cmakeflie 22:44:19 which is necessary for a C library, because sooner or later everybody has to muck with $CC or $CFLAGS 22:44:27 and then usign asdf:run-command (or whatever it exports to run shell commands) 22:44:28 to run make 22:44:39 that's not it 22:44:45 anyone using lispworks here? 22:46:17 DataLinkDroid [~David@CPE-121-216-152-242.lnse2.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 22:46:24 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:46:48 Enerccio: probably not many, but they do have an active mailing list 22:47:05 this channel is for pontificators, lispworks ppl actually write code :-) 22:47:40 well I am trying to load asdf, cffi and cl-glu for lisp 22:47:59 maxm-: too true to be funny. 22:48:00 and I get weird error with loading the last one, and stupid errors with loading asdf 22:48:20 with asdf: The symbol "GET-FOLDER-PATH" is not external in the SYSTEM package. 22:48:24 Enerccio: use quicklisp 22:48:32 even for lispworks? 22:48:36 yes 22:49:41 I still feel weird and nervous that it's one person maintaining quicklisp 22:50:43 fe[nl]ix: hmm, is the only way of using quicklisp with slime and use lispworks to connect to slime? 22:51:02 no 22:52:18 -!- yoklov [~yoklov@c-76-127-240-20.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: computer sleeping] 22:52:56 the next version of lispworks will probably include quicklisp integration in the GUI 22:52:58 -!- symm- [~symm-@178.168.29.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:52:58 -!- sigi-ntb [~sigi@host-213-189-171-252.brutele.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:53:03 anyone using sbcl in windows? 22:53:16 dcguru_ [~chatzilla@66.129.60.130] has joined #lisp 22:53:34 looking for the cmd to load quicklisp 22:53:55 -!- vigil_ante [~vigil@adsl-074-229-197-048.sip.mco.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:55:17 -!- dcguru_ [~chatzilla@66.129.60.130] has quit [Client Quit] 22:55:41 so how do you use quicklisp? 22:55:49 oh nm I got it 22:58:03 Enerccio: http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ 22:58:15 hmm, so I tried to load cl-glu 22:59:08 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:59:39 fe[nl]ix: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/557235/ 23:00:11 huh. babel doesn't support LW? 23:01:51 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:46 ghoti- [4c1b035d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.27.3.93] has joined #lisp 23:03:25 so what to do about it? 23:03:27 just give it up? 23:04:10 cl-glu depends on babel, though? 23:04:13 *sykopomp* headscratches. 23:04:47 doesn't CFFI depend on babel? 23:05:17 http://paste.pocoo.org/show/557238/ 23:05:22 babel loads fine on LW in here. 23:05:33 6.0.1 23:05:45 6.0.1 personal here 23:06:31 that would seem to be a bug, but ISTR there was a LW knob to make strings use extended-char by default, to work around it 23:07:01 -!- ngz [~user@69.205.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:07:19 hmm 23:07:28 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw61/LW/html/lw-966.htm 23:08:04 try (set-default-character-element-type 'character) 23:08:46 works for now! 23:08:54 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@212.71.14.175.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:09:07 is there a way to make lisp only evaluate code once? even when I recompile buffer 23:09:16 in the meanwhile, put that in LW's rcfile 23:09:46 were is it? 23:10:04 -!- Joreji [~thomas@74-028.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:10:05 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:10:12 lw personal loads no rc file iirc 23:10:23 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.202.237] has joined #lisp 23:10:27 nor allows starting without IDE 23:10:44 theBlackDragon [~dragon@212.71.14.175.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:04 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.163.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:11:16 -!- ghoti- [4c1b035d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.27.3.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:11:37 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.205.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:11:37 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 23:12:30 enerccio why do you use LW ? 23:12:39 personal edition seems limiting 23:13:06 sezo: well we have to do it for classwork, so I am sticking with it for personal use so I get better with it 23:13:10 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 23:13:24 oh i see 23:13:58 -!- nialo` [nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:14:58 Enerccio: at university ? where ? 23:15:26 for what it's worth you can load config file manually (or automatically via some third party automation software). (load *init-file-name*) 23:15:53 fe[nl]ix: Olomouc/Czech Republic 23:16:07 nialo` [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:26 -!- kai_ [~kai@f052101053.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:17:16 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:17:28 RomyRomy [~stickycak@pool-74-108-232-183.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:10 hmm cant find emacs config file 23:19:48 or maybe I have to create it 23:20:02 hmm 23:20:10 Unable to load any of the alternatives: 23:20:12 ("libglut.so" "libglut.so.3") 23:20:21 where is the load path for cl-glut? 23:20:41 I have this in /usr/lib and I made a link to the directory from where I am evaluating the code 23:23:50 Are nested dolists common? 23:24:09 Sgeo: as nested for(){} in C. 23:24:18 If I would use a list comprehension in Haskell, would a CL programmer see the same problem and think "nested dolist", or think something else? 23:24:20 Sgeo: really, what kind of question is that??? 23:24:21 If something else, what? 23:24:31 it's a sgeo-question 23:24:52 Sgeo: more context, please? 23:26:11 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:26:11 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 23:26:41 Enerccio: see http://paste.lisp.org/+2QS6 23:27:00 Enerccio: assuming your /usr/lib/libglut.so is a GNU ld script. 23:27:02 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:27:11 Enerccio: head -1 /usr/lib/libglut.so 23:27:43 pjb: its a symbolic link to /usr/lib/libglut.so.3.9.0 23:28:08 pp$p$ 77$7$$$Ptd4QtdRtdpp$p$00GNU6*jfG!6 23:28:10 1 @@` 23:28:11  23:28:13 THen it should work. 23:28:17 hmm 23:28:27 when I changed it to non link version 23:28:30 it kinda works 23:28:37 but its 64bit and it hates it 23:29:15 Well if you run a 32-bit lisp, better have 32-bit libraries. 23:30:51 RomyRomy_ [~stickycak@pool-74-108-234-244.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:07 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@pool-74-108-232-183.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:31:07 -!- RomyRomy_ is now known as RomyRomy 23:31:43 hmm 23:32:09 I put my quicklisp loading code in ignore-errors, yet it will still bug me about it 23:32:25 Quicklisp has already been installed. Load #P"/media/home/home/enerccio/quicklisp/setup.lisp" instead. 23:33:05 ok nvm, had wrong expression in the ignore-errors 23:33:26 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-93-152.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:33:45 -!- sezo [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Quit: #yhiselamu | www.yhiselamu.ee (EOF)] 23:34:41 naiv [~naiv@AAnnecy-651-1-161-101.w90-48.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:35:39 -!- naiv [~naiv@AAnnecy-651-1-161-101.w90-48.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 23:36:23 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-8-26.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:36:46 LoneLisper [~root@46.225.104.223] has joined #lisp 23:37:57 In Haskell, I might write something like 23:38:29 do { a <- [1,2]; b <- [1,3]; c <- [1,5]; return ((a,b,c), a+b+c)) } 23:38:41 pnq [~nick@AC815A0F.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 23:38:53 Hmm, ok, not exactly that expression, got some sort of parse error 23:39:11 do { a <- [1,2]; b <- [1,3]; c <- [1,5]; return ((a,b,c), a+b+c) } 23:39:38 Sgeo: but then, your haskell learning experience will find a better following in #haskell, maybe? 23:39:44 kennyd_ [~kennyd@93-138-93-152.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 23:39:59 Which would give me a list of ((a,b,c), a+b+c) where a b and c each take on all their possible values 23:40:11 What would the idiomatic thing to do similar in CL be? 23:41:00 Sgeo: you'd write your own operators, or use a library. 23:41:15 -!- LoneLisper [~root@46.225.104.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:41:17 Sgeo: you didn't read the /topic did you? 23:41:24 Sgeo: type /topic RET 23:42:12 do you mean Screamer-style all-values? 23:42:44 adeht, not familiar with that 23:45:18 Hmm, maybe. 23:45:34 sezo [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 23:45:42 Although, uh 23:45:47 -!- sezo [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Client Quit] 23:45:54 "Screamer seems to replace normal DEFUN with its own" 23:46:02 sezo [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 23:46:03 Seems to be perhaps a bit extreme? 23:46:39 Sgeo: common lisp does not have an idiom for what you want. screamer is a library that supports the idiom in a specific context. 23:47:15 H4ns, I could use nested dolists, right? Or would that be ugly? 23:47:31 Sgeo: sure, why not? nothing wrong with that at all 23:47:41 Ok 23:47:44 Sgeo: you could also use nested dotimes, or nested loops even. 23:48:11 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-186-4.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:50:13 Hmm 23:50:14 "Screamer is able to undo effects of setf and setq (including calls to user-defined setf-functions)" 23:50:30 Sgeo: screamer is pretty cool. 23:50:37 Sgeo: also, series might interest you. 23:50:39 I assume that that's relying on user-defined setf-functions to be sane in that doing the same form without setf should get the value in question? 23:50:56 Sgeo: don't assume, but read the paper. 23:51:07 -!- vervic [~vervic@vie-188-118-247-221.dsl.sil.at] has quit [Quit: vervic] 23:51:32 Why am I getting the impression that CL is sort of a "jack of all trades master of none" sort of thing? 23:52:20 Sgeo: ask your local fortune teller 23:52:35 you misplace the attribution.. it is not the language, but the programmer 23:54:01 Sgeo: do you have a blog? maybe you want to blog about your impressions rather than telling us all your little steps? we like cl and use it productively, there is no need to tell us how you think we're wrong or other languages are better. many of us have a lot of experience and still use cl. 23:54:22 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-186-4.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:54:41 I think I just tend to note criticisms and keep things I like to myself 23:55:02 So, why don't I just say one thing that sticks out that I like: The way Common Lisp does keyword arguments. 23:55:13 Sgeo: you've said that. 23:55:25 he just can't win, can he? 23:55:36 Sgeo: but of course you contrasted it with racket *yawn* 23:55:46 hefner: it _is_ getting harder :) 23:56:22 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:58:13 hmm 23:58:24 Undefined function CFFI::REGISTER-FOREIGN-LIBRARY called with 23:58:26 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl4-152-26.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: malbertife] 23:58:53 I have: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/557260/ 23:59:00 Joreji [~thomas@74-028.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp