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00:02:47 <|3b|> antifuchs: yeah, it was an interesting set of problems, curious to see if there are better ways to exploit that last one though :)
00:02:48 -!- kwmiebach_ [~kwmiebach@xdsl-87-79-56-96.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
00:03:13 <antifuchs> hah!
00:03:41 <antifuchs> did you send in your solution yet? don't forget to list your t-shirt size (:
00:04:00 <|3b|> nah, i don't usually wear shirts with logos :p
00:04:29 <antifuchs> awww
00:04:36 <antifuchs> we can work something out!
00:04:44 <antifuchs> (also, we love to hear from people) (:
00:05:06 <antifuchs> (I'll whisperingly mention that this is also a sort-of recruiting vehicle) ((-;
00:06:18 *felideon* secretly wonders what problems
00:06:19 -!- finnrobi [~robb@xvm-20-190.ghst.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
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00:06:43 <p_l> maxm--: yeah, it's just that I want to wrap it in WITH- style macro, that will execute certain logging data at entry into block and at exit
00:07:06 <maxm--> ah, see log4cl-impl:with-log-indent
00:07:18 <|3b|> felideon: https://stripe.com/blog/capture-the-flag
00:07:42 <p_l> maxm--: yeah, it's just that I want to add certain other data and stuff
00:07:49 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp
00:07:50 <maxm--> the (log:config :two-line) uses pattern layout that will print extra >> for each indent level, so 3 levels deep will be printed as * >>>>> blah
00:08:08 <maxm--> just add (log-trace "entered") and (log-trace "exited")
00:08:18 <p_l> maxm--: won't work for me
00:08:21 <felideon> now I wonder what stripe and antifuchs have in common
00:08:35 <antifuchs> I work there ((:
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00:08:42 <p_l> maxm--: I'm generating *binary* trace with microsend-resolution timestamp
00:08:45 <felideon> *gasp*
00:09:04 <felideon> no longer at Franz?
00:09:05 <antifuchs> aw!
00:09:14 <antifuchs> yeah, I got myself poached (:
00:09:18 <maxm--> p_l: I did not implement less then a second in the pattern layout, since there was no portable way to get sub-second universal time
00:09:22 <antifuchs> (by two former #lispers no less) (:
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00:09:44 <p_l> maxm--: well, I can drop in apropriate calls for the implementation ;)
00:09:56 <felideon> antifuchs: no way!
00:10:10 <felideon> I'm going to use Stripe in a Rails project soon
00:10:13 <antifuchs> !!!
00:10:16 <antifuchs> awesome ((:
00:10:23 <felideon> you guys doing lisp?
00:10:24 <p_l> maxm--: technically I don't need to use a logging library, I guess, but it might make it easier
00:10:45 <antifuchs> not at the moment (mostly ruby), but infrastructure is constantly in flux (:
00:10:53 <antifuchs> I wait my turn to POUNCE (;
00:11:01 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@18-74-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
00:11:04 <maxm--> yea contributions welcome: you can define new pattern layout stuff with src/pattern-layout.lisp (define-pattern-formatter (#\somechar) "output microsecond)
00:11:06 <felideon> cool beans.
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00:12:18 <p_l> maxm--: yeah, except I'm going to concentrate on dumping protocol buffers streams in ;)
00:13:01 <antifuchs> also, check out our CTF - it's fun (or so I hear) (:
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00:14:28 <felideon> antifuchs: yep, just read it. sounds fun!
00:14:36 <felideon> antifuchs: did you move to SF?
00:14:54 homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-165-128.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp
00:15:11 <antifuchs> I am still living in oakland, but contemplating a move
00:15:24 <antifuchs> would be much nicer to live closer to the office (:
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00:18:24 <|3b|> antifuchs: any guess as to how many people have captured the flag so far, or how far people have gotten in general?
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00:19:06 <antifuchs> I'd say a half dozen to a dozen or so that we know about?
00:19:27 <antifuchs> we had our first confirmed capture ~3h after we started, I think (:
00:19:32 <|3b|> heh, nice
00:20:03 <antifuchs> some illustrious names in there, too (:
00:20:08 homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-165-128.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp
00:20:13 <antifuchs> we'll announce when it's all a bit calmer (:
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01:53:19 <MaybeJust> can anyone show me a good example of the use of macros? i just dont get them.
01:53:50 <austinh> Whoever implemented slime-who-calls has my sincere gratitude.
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02:24:25 <slyrus> antifuchs: temescal to downtown is too far?!?
02:25:07 <slyrus> i spose you could live in adam's point or something
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02:26:25 <antifuchs> slyrus: haha
02:26:37 <antifuchs> slyrus: well, I work in the FiDi now ((:
02:26:47 <slyrus> SF?
02:26:56 <antifuchs> indeed - I'm at stripe.com now (:
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02:27:22 <antifuchs> gave up pro-CL bragging rights for other perks (;
02:27:41 <slyrus> oh, wows. neat.
02:28:08 <antifuchs> is indeed ((:
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02:28:35 <antifuchs> btw, when you have time to waste & want a fun challenge, try our capture the flag challenge (:
02:28:54 <pnathan> How long are you guys going to run that?
02:29:09 <antifuchs> a few weeks, I think
02:29:14 <slyrus> antifuchs: who are patrick and saikat?
02:29:31 <slyrus> antifuchs: come down to south park for lunch one of these days
02:29:36 <phf> does anybody if there's a logo implementation in lisp? seems like something that should exist in those old lisp code repositories somewhere
02:30:05 <antifuchs> slyrus: well, patrick is the guy who won lemonodor fame for the lisp he built and won a science prize with (or something, gotta get that story straight) (:
02:30:12 <sellout> slyrus: Patrick is Patrick Collison  of Croma fame.
02:30:20 <slyrus> no, I mean their #lisp handles
02:30:43 <antifuchs> I wish I could remember! logs from these days are across the 'lantic
02:31:07 <sellout> antifuchs: IIRC, he won the UK young scientist award, and came in second in some EU version. Or maybe he came in 2nd in the UK one, I forget.
02:31:28 <antifuchs> yeah, something like that. I always mix them up (:
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02:43:53 <p_l> he is irish ;)
02:44:10 <slyrus> antifuchs: i trust you'll try and sneak some lisp code into production somewhere along the line
02:44:40 <antifuchs> you betcha (:
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02:48:18 <pnathan> Anyone know of a open source FixML wrapper in CL?
02:48:34 <pnathan> (automated trading protocol)
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02:49:54 <slyrus> antifuchs: there's plenty of good food in the financial district (and surrounding neighborhoods), although I'm sure you'll miss the Bettie's Bakesale fried chicken sandwich, but, still, you should come down to Darwin cafe. it's the bomb.
02:50:07 <antifuchs> I will!
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02:54:31 *slyrus* was horrified to see that the vcard spec has an fburl field, until he realized that it's for free/busy url, not facebook url
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02:55:09 <p_l> haha
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02:57:28 <slyrus> one day folks will appreciate the lispy way of long names like update-instance-for-redefined-class and least-negative-normalized-double-float
02:59:02 <slyrus> fwiw, i have a working-ish vcard parser if anyone's interested
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03:10:09 <pnathan> slyrus: You need hippie-expand or similar functionality to use Lisp long names otherwise you have to type it out or hunt through some drop-down list
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03:10:39 <pnathan> one of the epic benefits of emacs was hippie-expand and being able to expand my identifiers to be meaningful without spending so much time typing
03:10:41 <slyrus> yeah, but the alternative is memorizing what all of the abbreviations are
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06:11:52 <quazimodo> anyone used commonqt with qml?
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06:18:09 <stassats`> ivan4th may have
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07:22:05 <Sgeo> Does anyone use rplaca and rplacd directly?
07:24:12 <stassats`> why are you asking?
07:25:11 <Sgeo> I'm just curious, and am vaguely under the impression that use of those is depreciated in favor of setf'ing car and cdr
07:25:42 <stassats`> you'd be better off using SETF, why do you care what others use?
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07:43:21 <mvilleneuve> good morning
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07:59:53 <dto> hi all.
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08:01:13 <dto> i started a new blog so as to update certain of you on #lisp without blabbing into the channel about my project, so here it is: http://blocky.io/blog ... oK!
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08:01:26 <dto> i'll put new updates there as events warrant.
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08:19:24 <leejongwook> I did, (+ 1 (length "alpha)) in Emacs LISP interpretert and it hugs. How do I escape from this ? (missed last double quotation mark at the end)
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08:19:50 <leejongwook> s,hugs,hungs
08:20:15 <stassats`> leejongwook: #emacs
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08:20:31 <leejongwook> stassats`: Thanks
08:20:43 <leejongwook> See you next time. :)
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08:23:25 <leejongwook> solved my problem by adding ")) // Bye all :)
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08:24:18 <stassats`> you could use backspace, you know
08:24:24 <stassats`> (too late)
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08:43:43 <gensym> where are doc-strings stored? is it implementation specific?
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08:44:06 <stassats`> yes
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10:01:32 <dto> question: how difficult would it be for an SBCL program being run as a subprocess of emacs via SLIME, to issue a command back to emacs to go to a particular buffer location and/or raise the emacs window?
10:01:39 <dto> or even create a new frame
10:01:49 <dto> are there any such hooks in slime?
10:02:32 <easye> dto:  I think for the SPAWN Swank implementation, it just reads messages from the SLIME protocol off the wire.
10:02:49 <easye> So, as long as you made the right messages appear, slime.el would do the right thing.
10:02:55 <easye> You might need to extend the protocol a bit.
10:03:24 <stassats> dto: quite easy
10:03:27 <dto> interesting. thanks easye.
10:03:32 <stassats> see swank:eval-in-emacs
10:04:13 <stassats> (and disregard everything easye said)
10:04:20 <easye> stassats: That sounds simpler.
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10:05:01 <dto> thank you stassats.
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10:05:35 <dto> this is for being able to click an object in the game and jump to his code etc.
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11:16:16 <leejongwook> Hello.
11:17:26 <leejongwook> Where can I find description and list of 'describe-function' like things from ? and what do you call this ?
11:17:42 <leejongwook> Does it have any name ?
11:18:05 <stassats`> again, this channel is not about emacs, try #emacs
11:18:30 <leejongwook> thought it was relate to LISP. :P
11:18:42 <leejongwook> :(
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11:19:58 <gko> #emacs is the right place.
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13:00:47 <maxm--> Meh, Xach appears to be mad at me for reusing log4cl name
13:01:25 <stassats`> maxm--: Xach would've named it QPX
13:01:27 <Xach> Not mad, it's just a dumb move that's fortunately easy to fix.
13:01:44 *maxm--* remembers discussing it here for like 2 hours, and trying to contact original log4cl author, to no avail
13:02:22 <maxm--> Xach: do you have a valid reason other then "out of courtesy to original author?"
13:02:34 <stassats`> out of courtesy to users
13:02:44 <Xach> maxm--: Yes, there's an existing project by that name and the new one causes a conflict and confusion.
13:03:04 <Xach> If you search for "log4cl", that project is #1.
13:03:29 <maxm--> well, that is easily changed if ppl link to new one.. I was not able to find a single user of original one
13:04:17 <Xach> Please pick a different name instead, or ask the authors to clear out their page and point to your new project.
13:04:41 <Xach> If you don't get a response from the authors, just pick a different name.
13:05:04 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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13:05:44 <maxm--> meh guess its #2, I think I tried contacting the guy and email bounced.. There was also something on this channel from common-lisp.net about "we'll gladly let you takeover an abandoned project", so I assumed it was cool
13:06:05 <maxm--> any suggestion of new names? cl-log* and log* are all taken
13:06:18 <Xach> I don't know what will suit your refined tasts, sorry.
13:06:31 <Xach> I've gotten responses from Nicolas Lamirault recently, for what it's worth, regarding other projects.
13:06:41 saschakb__ [~saschakb@p4FEA00EA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp
13:06:42 <Xach> it is <firstname>.<lastname>@gmail.com
13:06:59 <stassats`> timber4cl
13:07:13 <stassats`> trunk4cl
13:07:14 <maxm--> Xach: lemme try again, if he's ok with it you'll remove your objections?
13:07:32 <Xach> maxm--: If the existing page is updated, yes.
13:07:57 <stassats`> or journal4cl
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13:08:56 <stassats`> clojournal would be fun
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13:11:37 <maxm--> Xach: its Nicolas Lamirault at gmail without any umalauts or such?
13:11:54 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp
13:12:20 <Xach> with a dot between the first and last name
13:12:33 <Xach> but otherwise ascii
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13:28:02 <maxm--> ok, i sent him email to his gmail address
13:29:30 <maxm--> I'll rename it if I don't receive response within a few days, blah
13:32:24 <Xach> Thanks!
13:37:08 yakov_ [~yakov@77.234.195.14] has joined #lisp
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13:41:18 <maxm--> stassats`: thanks, timber4cl is cool, I'll use that :-)
13:41:30 <maxm--> well unless the french guy gives his ok
13:41:45 <stassats> i'll mail you my paypal info!
13:41:46 <H4ns> maxm--: how is your code related to log4cl?
13:42:10 <maxm--> H4ns: no relation, written from scratch
13:42:24 <H4ns> maxm--: then don't try to reuse the name.  it'll just cause confusion.
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13:42:42 <maxm--> I kind of like log4cl name, because mine library actually implements most of log4j features, which the name like log4cl would imply
13:42:51 <maxm--> ie appenders, layouts, pattern layout, hierarchies etc
13:42:52 <H4ns> maxm--: right.  i like "coca cola", too.
13:43:04 <Xach> stassats: what is the status of p_l's qt changes? are they good or bad?
13:43:38 *maxm--* will submit his qt changes next, just need to rebase, as i have shitload of fixes
13:43:40 <stassats> Xach: they only fix symptoms, it may work for you, but not for others
13:44:06 <stassats> i haven't found an automatic solution yet, short of modifying the .pro file from lisp
13:44:06 <Xach> stassats: is there anything I can do to get things working? Should I upgrade debian or install qt manually or something?
13:45:11 springz [~springz@115.173.156.78] has joined #lisp
13:45:16 <maxm--> H4ns: well anyway, I tried contacting author before, it did not work, now I got his new email and it will all clear up in a few days (either he oks it, or I'll rename it)
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13:46:22 <stassats> Xach: try installing smokegen and smokeqt  from git from https://projects.kde.org/projects/kde/kdebindings/smoke
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13:46:56 <maxm--> what kind of problems you have with commonqt? /me probably went through it, if it was on linux
13:47:21 <stassats> maxm--: too old and too new systems use incompatible build options
13:47:36 <stassats> it's fixed for new systems
13:48:13 <maxm--> ah, then I probably did not hit it, pretty recent opensuse here
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13:50:54 <maxm--> one thing is not to forget to do (ensure-smoke :qtcore) (ensure-smoke :qtgui)
13:51:09 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #lisp
13:51:25 <maxm--> if you have your own qpplication... otherwise it works if you used one of qt tutorials before (since they did it for you), but won't work when you run your code without running tutorial first
13:51:30 -!- yakov_ [~yakov@77.234.195.14] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
13:51:43 *Xach* can't find makefile, configure script, anything else to build those things, will look again later
13:51:46 <maxm--> and errors will be obscure, basically FFI symbol not found errors
13:51:53 <stassats> Xach: "cmake ."
13:52:17 <stassats> smokegen should be built first
13:53:00 <stassats> cmake . && make -j5 && sudo make install
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13:53:37 <Xach> ah
13:53:50 *Xach* installs cmake
13:55:13 <maxm--> ha, now thats an outdated system
13:55:46 *Xach* has never heard of, used cmake before today
13:56:00 <fe[nl]ix> lucky you
13:56:31 <Xach> stassats: thanks, that does the trick!
13:57:04 *maxm--* was reluctant at first, but grudgingly had to admit its better then autoconf
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13:58:13 <maxm--> and better then boost-build, even tho I still use it for C++ libs..But if you run into a problem with boost-build, its impossible to debug, whoever wrote boost-build in that horrible .jam language deserves lifetime award
13:58:28 <maxm--> its literally worse then sendmail.cf
14:00:13 bulll [~lulz@rrcs-24-173-61-93.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp
14:00:31 <stassats`> i only use ASDF
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14:09:12 <Sgeo> Um
14:09:20 <Sgeo> Just glancing at the above chat.
14:09:35 <Sgeo> As a Lisp newbie, should I be a bit scared of trying CommonQt?
14:09:48 <Xach> Sgeo: no. don't be scared of trying anything.
14:09:57 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
14:10:03 <Xach> Sgeo: And don't expect instant success 100% of the time, either.
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14:10:14 <maxm--> Not really, but you need to get REPL integration working for best expirience
14:10:26 <Xach> Struggle! Fight! Win (sometimes)!
14:10:42 <Odin-> Prevail!
14:10:56 <maxm--> ie (defparameter mywindow (.... creating window ...)) then (#_show mywindow) and it shows on the screen, then you (#_callMethtodsOnIt mywindow) and stuff updates dynamically
14:11:03 <maxm--> much faster development then C
14:11:44 <fe[nl]ix> I hope you meant "than"
14:11:54 <Sgeo> I also nothing about Qt >.>
14:12:03 <Sgeo> *know
14:13:15 <stassats`> Xach: are you still interested in a gif?
14:13:35 <bulll> FF ?
DCC SEND ff???f?????????????? 0 0 0
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14:14:25 <Xach> stassats`: yes
14:14:28 <Xach> bulll: go away
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14:16:33 <splittist> morning
14:16:47 <tomodo> helol
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14:16:48 <tomodo> hello
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14:20:44 <sellout> Hrmm, feel like I haven't seen gigamonkey here in a bit. Hope it hasn't gotten caught up in crocheting or something.
14:21:06 <H4ns> sellout: he was here recently, and he's well.  but not into lisp right now.
14:21:08 <tomodo> which brave soul will untangle him!
14:21:11 <H4ns> (if i dare say)
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14:23:27 <stassats> Xach: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg9KH2_xE24 gifs are passe
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14:25:02 <stassats> rtorrent has no search function, so that was my initial goal
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14:25:26 <sellout> I've written 2,500 words about method combinations so far, and that's just my outline. I think this might be a series of posts.
14:25:43 <Xach> sellout: NaNoClMo
14:25:47 <emacsuser> beginning of Lisp Desktop
14:25:59 <Xach> NaClWriMo?
14:26:07 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.152.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
14:26:13 <sellout> Heh  that's every month :)
14:26:17 <emacsuser> stassats's torrent client
14:26:28 <sellout> Or at least the ones that aren't NaiOSWriMo
14:26:41 <Xach> stassats: what a scholarly person you are!
14:26:59 *Xach* must write his Ode to the Package System
14:27:22 <stassats> incidentally, that was my first youtube video
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14:27:42 <felideon> Xach: SaltWrimo?
14:28:03 <sykopomp> Sultry Moe
14:28:48 <splittist> sykopomp: enough of your Simpsons pron
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14:30:06 <sellout> This method-combination stuff could be my big break  it could get me back on Planet Lisp.
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14:31:00 <stassats> better split it into a monthly series
14:31:23 <H4ns> or a "method-combination-tips" tumblr? :)
14:31:27 <Xach> hah
14:32:08 <splittist> There once was a package named CL-USER/When playing a good one to use-a/'Til def-ing your own/That you can call home/For symbols you don't want to lose-a. There, Xach - have I set the bar low enough (:
14:32:40 <sellout> splittist: Frightening.
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14:33:12 <sellout> splittist: Also, do you pronounce it "clue-zer"?
14:33:32 <splittist> sellout: only for the purposes of that
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14:35:04 <splittist> sellout: for your epic article, you could use the militarily additive combination: 'War-And Method Combinations'.
14:35:11 *splittist* stops now, gets meds
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14:38:11 *Sgeo* hmms
14:38:29 <Sgeo> Other than setf functions, can I make functions whose names are lists?
14:38:36 <stassats> no
14:38:40 <Sgeo> aww
14:38:44 <Sgeo> >.>
14:39:57 <stassats> you can shadow FUNCTION, write your own ( reader macro, and take care of something else i forgot to mention, and then you can
14:40:39 <stassats> the long answer to any "can i?" in lisp is usually "yes"
14:41:29 <sykopomp> DEFUN, DEFMACRO, FDEFINITION?
14:42:03 <stassats> i didn't intend to present a complete solution
14:42:19 <Sgeo> stassats, can I take an arbitrary s-expression and determine whether it will ever halt if evaluated? =P
14:42:40 <Odin-> Empirically, yes. 8)
14:42:52 <sykopomp> stassats: I -am- curious as to how much would really need to be changed in the average implementation to extend the list function name thing.
14:43:20 <stassats> Sgeo: of course
14:43:23 <tomodo> everything halts
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14:46:02 <Xach> stassats: thanks for the git help, that works splendidly for my debian 6 build test system
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14:46:28 <stassats> a blast from the past
14:46:35 <Xach> a blast from the present!
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14:46:58 <stassats> debian stable becomes outdated before it's even released
14:47:12 <p_l> how is that a new thing?
14:47:27 <p_l> at least these days most binaries are compatible enough, right?
14:47:51 <p_l> (update between 2.95 and 3.1 gcc was holy shit batman)
14:47:52 <sellout> So  unlike most non-consing functions, NCONC seems to quite clearly specify what is modified, and could therefore be used for its side effects  does anyone do this?
14:47:59 <Xach> sellout: yes
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14:49:09 <stassats> to append a non-nil list, to make a circular list
14:49:19 *maxm--* for some reason imagines the anthropomorphic mice from the kia commercials doing "you can go with this" "or you can go with that" song/dance while pointing to old-style green letters terminal running debian vs shiny opensuse desktop
14:50:03 <p_l> maxm--: can i disable the shiny desktop to get the terminal?
14:50:14 <maxm--> well actually I did, /me is running stumpwm
14:50:24 <stassats> stumpwm ain't no terminal!
14:50:58 <maxm--> but package availability wise, suse is up there and better then redhat/fedora.. I don't remember single package other then SBCL and CCL that I had to install from source
14:51:10 <sellout> stassats: What do you mean "to append a non-nil list"? And I understand what you can do with it, just curious if it's used instead of explicitly doing something like (rplacd (last ) )
14:52:21 <Xach> sellout: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3066591221451362@naggum.no.html
14:52:21 <maxm--> stassats: it has terminal, you need to specify vga=0 tho in boot options.. Otherwise framebuffer vesa based console scrolls like 1 line per 2 seconds on 2560x1440 screen
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14:53:18 <Xach> sellout: now i have to get an updated llvm for cl-llvm on debian 6
14:53:58 <sellout> Xach: Oh, sorry, that's not what I meant  I mean (progn (nconc x y) x), depending on the new value of X.
14:54:06 <sellout> stassats, too.
14:54:25 <sellout> Since that is explicitly an example on http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/f_nconc.htm
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14:55:32 <stassats> sellout: yes, this will return x with y appended
14:55:45 <sellout> stassats: I know that.
14:56:10 <stassats> that's what i meant, "to append a non-nil list"
14:56:30 <stassats> another "to" got lost somewhere
14:56:36 <sellout> stassats: Do you mean "to append _to_ a non-nil list"?
14:56:37 <sellout> Ah :)
14:57:06 <stassats> and (nconc x x) to get a circular list
14:57:17 <Xach> sellout: but that *is* depending on its side effect
14:57:40 <sellout> Xach: I understand that it is and that I was being unclear.
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14:59:32 *Sgeo* tries to look at Cells
14:59:43 <Sgeo> The site points to an old site, but the old site is down :(
14:59:54 <sellout> What I'm asking is whether anyone, rather than (let ((foo (nconc x y))) (do-something foo)) does (progn (nconc x y) (do-something x)), since that is something that is generally warned against with non-consing functions (but is well-specified in the case of NCONC).
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15:01:12 <jdz> sellout: you must know that X is not nil, then
15:01:16 <stassats> i usually just try to avoid appending, so the performance savings of nconc become moot
15:01:30 <sellout> jdz: Indeed. Irrelevant to my question.
15:01:53 <jdz> i disagree, but oh well
15:02:10 <adeht> sellout, looks like terrible style to me
15:02:15 *maxm--* sometimes uses iterate or loop with a single iteration, just to pickup their "constant time append/collect" functionality
15:02:43 <sellout> jdz: You're right  not "irrelevant", but I understand that constraint.
15:02:56 <sellout> adeht: I agree  but it's given as an example in the ANSI spec.
15:03:06 <maxm--> ie (iterate (collect 'one) (when whatever (append '(foo bar))) (when something-else (collect 'three)) (while nil))
15:03:19 <adeht> sellout, an example to prove the point, maybe?
15:03:52 <jdz> maxm--: how is that better than using APPEND?
15:04:19 <sellout> adeht: Perhaps, but that is usually something the spec comments on, like "this is a possible result".
15:04:30 <jdz> maxm--: (append (list 'one) (when whatever '(foo bar)) (when something-else (list 'three)))
15:04:32 <sellout> s/result/consequence
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15:05:20 <maxm--> jdz: as far as I know any sane loop or iterate implementation does append and collect in constant time, by keeping a pointer to the last cell of the list being collected
15:06:13 <maxm--> so when there are a lot of sublists you are joining, when you do it via iterate or loop you don't get O^2 explosion like with using (append) manually
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15:06:18 <wakeup> how do I coerce decimal numbers like 0.3 to a real numbers like 3/10?
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15:06:46 <jdz> maxm--: what makes you think APPEND will not do that?
15:07:05 <stassats> wakeup: rationalize
15:08:33 <maxm--> jdz: well if you collect results first, then call append on them, it tsill has to scan all lists at least once.. Plus naive use of append is usually something like  (let ((var)) (loop. ... (setq var (append var (more-stuff))))) which is O^2
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15:09:34 <jdz> maxm--: i'm talking about your single-iteration loop example
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15:12:01 <jdz> maxm--: if you don't believe me, you can check the APPEND source of your favourite common lisp implementation
15:12:14 <jdz> i just checked, and both CCL and SBCL do that
15:12:44 <jdz> "that" being keeping the pointer to tail cons cell
15:12:52 <wakeup> stassats: thanks, how how do I extract numerator and denominator?
15:13:04 <stassats> numerator, denominator
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15:13:10 <maxm--> jdz: hmm now that I tested it seems same speed actually
15:13:16 <maxm--> donno why I liked that metaphor at the itme
15:13:31 <maxm--> I guess because I can alternatively either collect elements or lists, conditionally
15:13:35 <wakeup> now I feal real stupid
15:13:36 <maxm--> at least with iterate..
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15:15:12 <jdz> maxm--: note that you can also do: `(one ,@(when whatever '(foo bar)) ,@(when something-else (list 'three)))
15:16:09 <maxm--> yea that works too, but sometimes the code generating elements and sub-lists is convoluted and nested, and iterate is still able to reach inner collects and appends due to code walking
15:16:36 <jdz> maxm--: in a single iteration loop?
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15:17:17 <maxm--> jdz: yup, I can't remember the exact place i used it, but i remember the feeling of "man am I clever" :-) maybe it was mis-placed
15:17:47 <jdz> maxm--: maybe you were too clever, and missed a simpler solution
15:18:22 <krrrcks> one "little question": I want a FORMAT recipe for a "German" float represantion: 1.350,55 instead of 1,350.55. Is there a "standard way" for doing that?
15:18:43 <maxm--> could be, /me tires to eradicate premature cleverness from his code, but in sneaks in here and there
15:19:29 <maxm--> krrrcks: try ~:d
15:19:44 <Xach> krrrcks: no
15:20:03 <krrrcks> anybody a shirt snippet for that at hand?
15:20:25 <maxm--> ah he needs swap commas and dots around
15:20:50 <sykopomp> krrrcks: there's i18n/l17n libraries. Perhaps those are more appropriate?
15:21:03 <sykopomp> l10n*
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15:22:38 <sykopomp> krrrcks: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-l10n/docs/cl-l10n_3.html
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15:23:46 <krrrcks> ah. i give it a try!
15:24:23 <stassats> CL standard was ratified when the Roman Empire was still shining, so, no pesky commas
15:24:33 <stassats> just roman numerals
15:25:48 <maxm--> imho the dumb/fast solution is to format it with commas and dots, then loop over it swapping them around :-)
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15:26:20 <CrLF0710> By the way, implementations spells numbers without the word 'and'... i always wonder why...
15:26:48 <jdz> CrLF0710: are you sure?
15:26:59 <CrLF0710> yeah~ both under SBCL and CCL.
15:27:54 <jdz> CrLF0710: seems to be so
15:28:07 <krrrcks> thx. that seemd to be the right library.
15:28:30 <krrrcks> maxm--: I tried to avoid that fast solution. Well, perhaps I come back to it if cl-l10n is not the thing I was lookign for.
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15:31:18 <stassats> krrrcks: (format nil "~,,'.:d,~d" (floor 1350.55) (floor (* (rem 1350.55 1) 100))) => "1.350,55"
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15:31:58 <maxm--> stassats: thats 5 minutes you will never get back
15:32:18 <stassats> pardon me?
15:32:54 <maxm--> I meant if it takes 5 minutes to figure out solution to such simple problem, means there is something wrong with underlaying tool, ie format
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15:33:19 *maxm--* had the same situation trying to format timezone as either +0500 or -0500, apparently you could not do it in 1 shot
15:33:35 <stassats> i don't get what you're talking about
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15:35:09 <krrrcks> stassats: thx. that seams a way nicer than the cl-l10n library (where code and documentation do not match ;)
15:35:22 <maxm--> must be the language barrier.. my comment meant to be humorous, saying that figuring out advanced uses of "format" to accomplish a simple thing, usually isn't worth the time one spends on it
15:36:01 <maxm--> kind of like the very last example of 1 page format statement in CLTL2 formatter chapter
15:36:12 <stassats> maxm--: this still doesn't make sense
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15:36:27 <stassats> yes, you have to do something to accomplish things
15:36:46 <krrrcks> you helped a lot. i was thinking about FLOOR as well, but was fiddling to long to come to the solution ;) *G*
15:36:52 <maxm--> just give it up, apparently I could not express my thoughts clearly enough
15:37:30 <stassats> or the thoughts are not clear
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15:38:21 <maxm--> yea yea, stop making big deal out of innocent comment, I did not meant it to be offensive or whatever
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15:38:59 *sykopomp* grabs some popcorn.
15:39:08 *phadthai* sips some tea
15:39:17 <H4ns> maxm--: it is the amount of your talking that is offensive :D
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15:41:04 <maxm--> H4ns: its a phase, I'll soon go into hiding again.. Plus he started it :-)
15:41:14 <H4ns> q.e.d.
15:41:20 <sykopomp> ^
15:42:04 <stassats> krrrcks: note, that for a real solution (multiple-value-bind (quout rem) (floor x) (format nil "~,,'.:d,~d" quout (floor (* rem 100)))) would be better
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15:42:32 <stassats> s/quout/quot/
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15:48:19 <krrrcks> stassats: thanks. you're right.
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15:48:30 <stassats> i know!
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15:55:54 <optikalmouse> so what kind of maths knowledge do I need to understand what pkhuong talks about in his writing? ;p
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15:57:52 <osa1> optikalmouse: which writing is that?
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15:59:24 <Xach> osa1: http://pvk.ca/Blog/2012/02/19/fixed-points-and-strike-mandates/
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16:02:03 <pjb> krrrcks: you can wrap stassats' solution in a format function that you can call as (format t "~10,2/german-float/" amount)
16:03:44 <krrrcks> pjb: yeah, i've done that.
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16:07:01 <optikalmouse> Xach: yep ;p
16:07:30 <optikalmouse> I was also looking at the article about string-case and was curious about how frequent it is to be writing pattern matching code
16:07:51 <optikalmouse> "I think writing pattern matchers is a surprisingly frequent task" -- http://pvk.ca/Blog/Lisp/string_case_bis.html
16:08:23 <pjb> optikalmouse: In lisp, it depends on what you have to do; In some other language, pattern matching is your proverbial hammer.
16:08:42 <pjb> (and in a lot of others, it's just impossibly hard).
16:09:03 <optikalmouse> I'd like to know how to identify what can be turned into a pattern matcher :S
16:09:41 <pjb> optikalmouse: when you have CONDs with a lot of clauses testing for several slots of the same lisp objet.
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16:34:11 <pkhuong> optikalmouse: I think breadth-first mathworld/wikipedia should be enough... FWIW, I tried to understand this stuff because of abstract interpretation for a long while, and it wasn't until a final year logic course that lattices and all that clicked.
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16:36:16 <maxm--> well CLOS method dispatch is basically poors man pattern matcher, selecting the "most specific match" first.. So the cond can be replaced with (defgeneric foo (slot-a slot-b slot-c)) and (defmethod foo (a b c) ...default processing) (defmethod foo ((a some-type) b c)) (defmethod foo ((a (eql :special-case)) b c) ...) etc
16:36:51 <sykopomp> CLOS method dispatch is distinct from pattern matching.
16:37:00 <sykopomp> See how Haskell has both pattern-matching and type classes.
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16:42:13 <pjb> Yes, CLOS does everything, pattern matching, monads, and even OO.
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16:57:51 <sykopomp> I wonder how many people are under the impression that I'm tpd2's author because my tiny patch has been in HEAD all this time. One of them just emailed me. :\
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16:58:48 <Qworkescence> is (PROG1 (PROGN ...) ...) a relatively common macro idiom?
16:59:06 <H4ns> Qworkescence: i like to use it sometimes.
16:59:29 <pjb> Qworkescence: usually the first form is simple. (prog1 i (incf i)).
16:59:46 <H4ns> Qworkescence: i.e. in defclass wrappers when i want to return the class defined
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16:59:55 <pjb> But the point of lisp is that each construct is orthogonal to each other.
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17:01:40 <Qworkescence> H4ns, that's my primary use, to wrap code with a prologue and epilogue of sorts... (progn (prog1 <creation forms> <body>) <destruction forms>)
17:02:40 <pkhuong> Qworkescence: are you sure you don't want an unwind-protect?
17:02:49 <Qworkescence> pkhuong, yes
17:02:55 <pjb> (progn (prog1 <creation forms> <body>) <destruction forms>) == (progn <creation forms> <body> <destruction forms>)
17:03:08 <pjb> as long as <destruction forms> is not empty.
17:03:23 <Qworkescence> woops, switch prog1/n
17:03:28 *Qworkescence* is still waking up.
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17:06:32 <optikalmouse> pkhuong: you mean the MathWorld classroom for a breadthfirst search, ja?
17:06:35 <optikalmouse> pkhuong: and thanks for the advice :D
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17:18:07 <oGMo> so i reimplemented CLX on XCB/Xlib and posted it on github .. not 100% but getting close, core should be finished by next week
17:18:17 <oGMo> GLX is implemented and works with cl-opengl/direct rendering
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17:20:49 <TDT> hey all.  cl-sql question if anyone is available.  Checking the documentation, but couldn't find this...lets say I have a TEXT field in sqlite, and want the corresponding type in clsql.  I know VARCHAR exists, but couldn't find one for TEXT.  Does anyone know of a field type for that?
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17:22:49 <sykopomp> oGMo: cool! You should tell the #lispgames folks :)
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17:23:22 <optikalmouse> TDT: http://www.sqlite.org/datatype3.html
17:23:46 <optikalmouse> TDT: sqlite maps a whole bunch of SQL types into some main types, so VARCHAR is actually just a TEXT field
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17:25:09 <optikalmouse> TDT: so you might be able to just mix the type or set it as VARCHAR(1231293) and access it that way? I haven't used cl-sql though :S
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17:26:32 <TDT> optikalmouse: Yeah, in the .sql file I call it TEXT, which should be of unbounded length (to my understanding).  The corresponding clsql is (STRING), but I thought it needed a length associated with it...tested it without an argument, and ... maybe it's unbounded length? I'm not sure...it seems to work at least for the code I'm working with, but will want to look into this more to make sure I don't shoot myself in the foot.
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17:29:06 <optikalmouse> TDT: can you see what kind of sql is generated by cl-sql? I can't think of any sql statements that require knowledge of whether a string is unbounded or bounded, I think that's just a storage issue and you shouldn't be affected by it :S
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17:31:19 <TDT> optikalmouse: On inserts it'd probably be helpful to be able to check it before trying to insert it.  But, tbh..I'm not much of an expert at clsql, so I'm not sure about spitting out specific sql information.
17:31:37 <TDT> Since this specific app, at least for now, won't be inserting anything...I'm just querying data, I'm likely to not shoot myself in the foot today at least :)
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17:31:58 <reb> oGMo: What is the CLX repository on github?
17:32:21 <oGMo> sykopomp: will do heh
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17:34:17 <oGMo> reb: original i get from the sharplispers branch .. my new one is https://github.com/rpav/cl-xcb-xlib
17:34:58 <oGMo> mine is not based at all on code from the TI CLX stuff, though i did look at the code to figure out the less-than-specific spec
17:35:11 <jiacobucci> heh, here I was embarrassed that my google-fu was weak and that I couldn't find oGMo's stuff.
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17:35:43 <oGMo> well it's not specifically named, i just posted it, and should have provided a link anyway.. need coffee
17:37:01 <reb> oGMo: Thanks!
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17:37:25 <oGMo> np
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17:39:01 <oGMo> note that it's probably not actually going to drop-in replace CLX for complex stuff, but soon :P e.g., it won't run stumpwm, because xtest etc aren't implemented, but you don't really need it for stumpwm anyway
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17:45:39 <reb> oGMo: I have no immediate use for the code ... just think it's a great idea and want to follow its progress.
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17:49:05 <hoverbear> Is http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html A good book for someone to read who is interested in learning to be a better programmer (as a whole?)
17:49:23 <Xach> hoverbear: yes
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17:49:49 <hoverbear> Xach: Thanks. :)
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17:50:58 <french> Hi
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17:52:31 <Xach> hoverbear: paradigms of ai programming is a neat book for learning common lisp. so is practical common lisp.
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17:54:15 <hoverbear> Xach: I admit I'm less interested in learning LISP itself as I am in learning how to program and design my programs better.
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17:58:31 <Xach> hoverbear: I found it helpful to realize (long after I first read it) that SICP establishes a kind of independent universe in which its chosen examples shine.
17:58:48 <Xach> hoverbear: If your own work fails to live up to its standard of elegant solutions, it's not necessarily all your fault.
17:58:59 <Xach> Only probably...
17:59:30 <hoverbear> Xach: Hah, alright.
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18:00:30 <french> Hello world
18:00:35 <Xach> loke: can cl-gdata upload an .xls to google docs?
18:00:37 <sykopomp> ^C
18:00:52 <Xach> loke: (sorry for being lazy, i haven't taken the first look at it)
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18:12:58 <sipo> Xach: on paip, do you have a suggestion on how to read it. i have worked on PCL, not read all of it, and i wanted to go through paip also but not sure whether i should go through front to back or whether there some interesting bits i should check out. do you follow the description, spec, implementation, test, debug & and analyze paradigm outlined there?
18:13:24 <Xach> sipo: When I read it, I read it front to back.
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18:13:57 <Xach> Following along with the examples (by writing them myself) helped me understand them.
18:14:59 <sipo> Xach: that's how i was going to do it, writing out the examples! hopefully at the end my CL skills will a bit improved!
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18:18:04 <TDT> wish I kept through PIAP, I got through about 1/4th of it, and stopped.
18:18:17 <Xach> Go back and try again!
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18:19:06 <TDT> heh, yeah, I really should.  Need to carve out some time each day to study it.  In grad school, working full time too...and doing side work too...not as much time available as I wish I had.
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19:03:14 <maxm--> hmm received response from the old log4cl guy
19:03:18 <maxm--> not sure what to make of it
19:03:24 <homie> 5
19:03:25 <Xach> Was it in French?
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19:04:25 <maxm--> ah doh missed the 1st line.. /me is having serious reading comprehension problems with skipping stuff and only reading last sentence, no wonder things don't make sense so often
19:04:35 <Ralith> lol
19:04:48 <maxm--> hes ok with it: Log4cl is a dead project. Of course you can use this name. I will update the cliki page in a few days ( i m on holidays).
19:05:14 <Xach> Well, there you go.
19:05:25 <pjb> maxm--: In any case, I don't see the point of using alien naming schemes.  You could name it clog or cl-log  as well.
19:05:37 <pjb> Since we already have clon and clop
19:05:41 <maxm--> cl-log is taken. cllog is taken
19:05:53 <maxm--> log4 is taken, log4lisp is taken, log5 is taken and logv is taken
19:05:59 <pjb> :-)
19:06:05 <sykopomp> I like 'clogged'
19:06:11 <pjb> By the way, I have my own logger package
19:06:24 <maxm--> mines bigger
19:06:29 mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp
19:06:38 <maxm--> seriously, /me actually tried most of them, before going on my own
19:06:41 <Xach> Stihlbank
19:07:40 <maxm--> every one of them either had huge performance problems (consing crazily etc), or had other limitations (ie ambiguous project, but not finished enough).. /me does not go for reinventing the wheel without it being the last resort
19:08:36 <sykopomp> what's the pun behind "Armed Bear", anyway, aside from referring to the 2nd amendment?
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19:10:15 <Xach> Does there have to be more?
19:10:16 <maxm--> its a scifi trope, there are at least 4 different pulp sci-fi series or books involving intelligent bear-like species. they usually speak with russian accents and are drunk/disorderly, but friendly once you get to know them
19:11:06 <sykopomp> I just expected a clever historical reference like Steel Bank :\
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19:11:29 <sykopomp> not 'just' gun-toting bears.
19:12:53 <Xach> piso would know
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19:31:54 <Xach> loke: i see that the google data api supports such file uploads
19:35:44 <optikalmouse> sykopomp: scifi > history!
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19:46:43 <RomyRomy> hm, a question on the term 'syntactic sugar' for programming in general--- would you say this word encompasses the parentheses and semicolon in, for example "orchid();"
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19:51:41 <sykopomp> RomyRomy: when I've read 'syntactic sugar', it's usually in the context of a construct being a shorthand for existing functionality (or functionality that could just as well have a functional interface, even if there is no such thing made available).
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19:52:54 <sykopomp> so I'm not sure I'd apply it to really core parts of a language's syntax, like its function calling syntax...
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19:53:54 <pjb> RomyRomy: yes.  On the other hand in lisp, (orchid) has no syntactic suggar, since it's just a list.
19:54:12 <pjb> orchid(); <- sugar ;   sugar-free -> (orchid)
19:54:22 <Odin-> O_o
19:54:25 <pjb> That's why we say syntactic sugar cause the semicolon cancer.
19:54:29 <dlowe> orchid <- diet
19:54:38 <dlowe> (e.g. ruby)
19:54:39 <RomyRomy> pjb: i was thinking more in programming in general
19:54:57 <RomyRomy> ii posed the same question in Haskell and two people voiced 'no'
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19:55:18 <pjb> RomyRomy: lisp is almost sugarless.  It's almost the 0 kelvin of the programming languages.
19:55:25 <sykopomp> pjb: #\( hasa a reader macro associated with it. :)
19:55:41 <pjb> sykopomp: yes, that's why I say "almost".
19:55:58 <sykopomp> you didn't say "almost" when talking about (orchid)!
19:56:23 <dlowe> sykopomp: that's just the reader, though. Lisp isn't composed of the text tokens
19:56:24 <pjb> THe point is that lisp is not defined in terms of characters, but in terms of sexps.
19:56:29 <pjb> There's no parentheses in sexps.
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19:56:51 <pjb> (mapc 'print '(orchid)) prints orchid, no parentheses.
19:56:53 <RomyRomy> pjb: hm, i was asking that question outside of Lisp as I know sugar does not apply to lisp the way it does in other languages
19:57:05 <sykopomp> isn't CL source specified as strings or something?
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19:57:14 <pjb> RomyRomy: oh, but it applies to CL too!
19:57:16 *sykopomp* thought that was one of its differences with Scheme.
19:57:41 <dlowe> sykopomp: time to read the spec again
19:57:50 <pjb> RomyRomy: eg. I wrote some syntatic sugar to be able to write [object message:a with:b] instead of (#/|message:with:| object a b).
19:58:42 <pjb> sykopomp: scheme is specified with textual sources.
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19:59:07 <pjb> A scheme compiler can be written without using sexps, just like a classical compiler.
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20:53:09 <antoszka> Is there a library that will convert HTML-style quoted chars (like &lt;) into a proper related char?
20:53:36 <dlowe> antgreen: html-entities
20:53:44 <antoszka> Thx.
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20:55:24 <antoszka> yay, works great
20:55:33 <french> Hi
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21:03:49 <french> who have used Prolog ?
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21:04:34 <H4ns> french: maybe you have noticed that this is #lisp, not #prolog?
21:05:17 <french> I have noticed but and what ?
21:05:49 <H4ns> french: you may want to ask your prolog related question in an appropriate channel
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21:07:43 <daimrod> french: see ##prolog
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21:11:07 <french> scuse me, but I am going to wait and see if someone speak of something else than Lisp, I want to see if you are going to do The same remark as has me.
21:11:28 <tomodo> french: hello
21:11:36 <H4ns> french: and if not, you're going to do what?  annoy us more? call the police?
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21:12:07 <sykopomp> Hamburgers are delicious. Do you guys like hamburgers?
21:12:08 <french> no I know you are someone very bad
21:12:16 <H4ns> *sniffle*
21:13:02 <french> and it's like racisme against me and maybe french
21:13:28 <tomodo> I like french
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21:13:38 <tomodo> they invented prolog
21:14:05 <sellout> tomodo: Go to ##prolog!
21:14:22 <rme> sykopomp: This is #lisp, not #hamburgers
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21:14:39 <Sgeo> If I ask about cl-cont and how usable it is, am I going to be told to go with Scheme?
21:14:59 dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
21:15:21 <Fade> weblocks uses it
21:15:23 *sykopomp* /join #hamburgers.
21:15:52 <sykopomp> Sgeo: teepeedee2 uses cl-cont, too.
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21:18:47 *Sgeo* wonders if he should try to write his own version of prog1
21:18:54 <Sgeo> (For educational value, of course)
21:21:13 <madnificent> Sgeo: if you need to think more than a minute as to how you should write it, then you probably should.
21:21:19 <madnificent> but you shouldn't use it
21:21:31 <tomodo> that's a good heuristic madnificent
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21:21:38 <tomodo> in general
21:21:50 <tomodo> that could go in a beginners faqq
21:23:14 <Ralith> not really
21:23:21 <Sgeo> I don't think it took that long to figure out how to write it
21:23:38 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-400857.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
21:23:39 <Ralith> there are many things which take a great deal of thinking to understand how to write, but which should not be rewritten by every beginner
21:23:49 <sykopomp> Sgeo: for extra educational purposes, implement it with only lambda
21:24:39 <Sgeo> Does paste.lisp.org's paste into channel thing work, or is it broken?
21:24:42 dto [~dto@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
21:24:44 <Sgeo> I get a blank page when I click submit
21:24:58 <H4ns> Sgeo: it is broken, sadly.  please paste the url by hand
21:25:26 <Sgeo> http://paste.lisp.org/display/127960
21:25:26 <H4ns> someone should at least remove the thing from the web page.
21:26:31 <H4ns> Sgeo: what are the extra names (first-form , rest-form) good for?
21:27:17 <Sgeo> Hmm.
21:27:20 <TDT> If anyone has a mac, with sbcl compiled with threads, and has cl-sql already installed.  Would you, from emacs, please test a (require :clsql-postgresql)?  I believe there's a bug..not sure where....but it seems like slime will lose the connection with sbcl
21:27:20 <Sgeo> I guess they're not
21:27:55 <sykopomp> TDT: it's not a bug. It's a sign from the gods that you should (ql:quickload 'postmodern) instead.
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21:29:06 <TDT> sykopomp: hah, yeah...problem is for development I'm using sqlite, and for production was hoping to use postgresql :(
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21:29:37 <sykopomp> TDT: That is a problem. Postgres is useful for development, too! :)
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21:30:30 <TDT> sykopomp: Yeah, that's true...and may make go that route.  For now, more tempted to just use sqlite for the production app, temporarily, while I get postgresql setup for local development, and translate everything over.
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21:31:44 <adeht> H4ns, I find that it makes reading the backquoted part easier... I prefer a simple ,foo to ,(some expression)
21:32:23 <H4ns> adeht: i disagree - if an expression is only used once, i find it easier if i do not have to resolve a name when the expression is used.
21:32:36 <H4ns> adeht: but that is certainly a matter of preference, too.
21:33:02 <dlowe> if an expression is too long to easily resolve, it should probably be a function
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21:49:00 <Sgeo> I don't know if I said this before, but I think I prefer Common Lisp's style of keywords, whey're they can sort of be treated like positional arguments via rest and given via apply, over Racket's thing where there has to be a keyword-apply function
21:50:52 sickle [~Harrison@pool-108-20-196-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
21:51:37 <sickle> So uh what's the best way to go about writing Lisp on a Mac?
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21:52:10 <H4ns> sickle: most of us use emacs and slime, with ccl and/or sbcl
21:52:13 <madnificent> sickle: read the book Practical Common Lisp, use sbcl and emacs+slime.
21:52:26 <sickle> Pratical Common Lisp is the de facto starting place?
21:52:30 <madnificent> (and quicklisp for installing libraries and slime)
21:52:36 <sykopomp> sickle: CCL is well-supported on OSX.
21:52:40 <H4ns> sickle: if you want to use mac specific api's, ccl is the way to go.
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21:52:54 <madnificent> sickle: it depends on what your background is, but it's the most used afaict.
21:53:29 <sickle> And is it possible to get an answer on one foot of why Lisp is great?
21:53:50 <H4ns> sickle: no.  to really appreciate it you need to learn it.
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21:55:22 <dto> sickle: Lisp makes it easy to develop domain-specific languages that mesh perfectly with the "built in" parts of the language, and where the terms of the "sublanguage" match more closely your concepts, meaning simpler/better code overall, and being able to repeat the process with another higher-level DSL makes Lisp a "Huge Win".
21:55:38 <sickle> So basically
21:55:43 <sickle> Being the programmable programming language?
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21:55:45 <dto> sickle: it sounds pretentious kind of, but lisp is much closer to programming with pure concepts (in the positivist sense i guess)
21:55:51 <dto> pretty much.
21:55:51 <madnificent> sickle: there is no 'one feature' of which you could say that it makes lisp what lisp is.  at least to me there isn't one.  some others have mentioned macros, but it's really much much more than that.  i guess one of the great general things about lisp is having a great amount of abstraction, whilst not having to give up on speed.
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21:56:20 <Ralith> speed is beside the point
21:56:30 <Ralith> there aren't exactly many languages with more abstraction of any speed
21:56:46 <dto> sickle: as far as particular lisps go, Common Lisp is extremely well thought out and very complete in terms of things you'd want in a language, which is another win in itself.
21:57:05 <madnificent> Ralith: it is beside the point, but in traditional languages more expressivenes generally comes at the cost of speed.  as such, it makes sense to stress that to someone who isn't accustomed to the language.
21:57:10 <sickle> Why are there so many Lisps?
21:57:18 <dto> whereas scheme is smaller, but the implementation/library space seems a bit more diverse (look at Fluxus/SchemeBricks for example)
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21:57:32 <Ralith> because lisps are relatively easy to write
21:57:44 <sykopomp> sickle: because we have a somewhat-big standard, and different implementations have different benefits to bring to the table.
21:57:49 <Ralith> and lispers tend to have strong opinions on how to do so
21:58:08 *madnificent* wouldn't say lisp is an easy language to write a compiler for
21:58:13 <sykopomp> Part of doing Lisp is figuring out which implementation will serve a particular task best, although I think most of us have one or two favorite implementations that we prefer in general.
21:58:18 <Ralith> easier than many
21:58:32 <dto> sickle: as far as different dialects go , there is much room for disagreement and variation in how Lisps are designed
21:58:38 <H4ns> writing a slow lisp is easy
21:58:46 <H4ns> writing a fast clos is rather tricky, i'd say
21:58:53 <arnsholt> madnificent: Probably depends on what you mean by compiler
21:59:08 <sickle> I see
21:59:18 <Ralith> and not all lisps are compiled, anyway
21:59:19 <sickle> Is Lisp functional or procedural? I hear this being debated sometimes.
21:59:21 <arnsholt> The whole nine yards, machine code and that lot, yeah, it's probably pretty hard
21:59:21 <madnificent> arnsholt: i'm going by what H4ns said, he formulated it nicely
21:59:26 <Ralith> Common Lisp is multi-paradigm.
21:59:31 <Ralith> you can do whatever.
21:59:33 <madnificent> sickle: lisp is all!  (and that's not joking)
21:59:34 <H4ns> sickle: it is no more functional than most other dynamic languages.
21:59:48 <arnsholt> Yeah, pretty much what he said. AST walking with Lisp is relatively straightforward
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22:00:00 <Ralith> FP, OOP, procedural...
22:00:19 <Ralith> whatever the trendy paradigm of the week is
22:01:17 <H4ns> lisp failed at patterns because most patterns are there to work around definiencies in lesser languages :)
22:01:27 <sykopomp> sickle: "Lisp" is historically associated with functional programming, and has strong roots in it -- Common Lisp itself is a multiparadigm language. It is not functional in the sense that some modern languages have defined that term (it doesn't shy away from side-effects or iterative constructs, it doesn't guarantee TCO nor encourages recursion in general)
22:01:51 <H4ns> deficiencies
22:01:52 <sickle> Well I think I'm going to give it a try
22:02:01 <H4ns> sickle: have fun.  we do :)
22:02:03 <sykopomp> good luck. PCL is pretty good.
22:02:05 <dto> "I had a problem, and thought to use Java. Now I have a ProblemFactory"
22:02:10 <Ralith> hahaha
22:02:10 <p_l> sickle: the "functional" bit came partially because the other contemporary made it impossible
22:02:10 <tomodo> lolol
22:02:42 <dto> sickle: don't ignore Emacs Lisp either, it's hugely useful even if you only learn the basics
22:02:55 <sickle> Emacs lisp?
22:03:00 <Ralith> ignore it.
22:03:04 <H4ns> :D
22:03:10 <dto> sickle: you will discover varying opinions :)
22:03:13 <madnificent> sickle: it may take a while for things to settle in your brain.  take some time with it before judging :)
22:03:21 <sykopomp> "I had a problem, and thought I wanted to use a non-Java JVM language. Now I have a ProblemFactoryFactory."?
22:03:36 <Ralith> it's obsolete and not useful outside of its niche
22:03:45 <H4ns> sickle: common lisp is a rather large bite, so i'd not confuse myself with trying to learn emacs lisp at the same time.
22:03:46 <dto> sykopomp: hehe.
22:03:49 <Ralith> and inside its niche you can generally get by fine on general principles and copy-paste.
22:03:52 <sykopomp> sometimes i wish I could ignore elisp.
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22:37:02 <Farzad> is there a problem with creating a closure in a lambda? mine seems to have no effect.
22:37:27 <Sgeo> When I try trivial examples of closures, they tend to work
22:37:57 <tomodo> what do you mean Farzad?
22:38:12 <pjb> Farzad: no, this is quite basic, all CL implementations got that right.
22:38:12 <Sgeo> (let ((x 0)) (defun next () (incf x)))
22:38:29 <pjb> There's no closure in a lambda here.
22:38:30 <Sgeo> (next) works as expected (although from this I learn that incf is a post-increment)
22:38:51 <Farzad> its a mapcar that maps over some list and with a lambda func that creates some slosure for each item and ads them to some list
22:39:00 <pjb> Farzad: (funcall ((lambda (x) (lambda (y) (+ x y))) 1) 2) => 3
22:39:49 <pjb> Farzad: (mapcar (lambda (f) (funcall f 2)) (mapcar (lambda (x) (lambda (y) (+ x y))) '(1 2 3))) => (3 4 5) ; works perfectly.
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22:40:22 <Sgeo> I forgot which of pre- and post- is which
22:40:29 <Sgeo> It behaves like ++x
22:41:31 <Farzad> thanks, something should be wrong with my code
22:41:50 <adeht> Sgeo, that is pre-increment..
22:42:07 *Sgeo* feels like a derp
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23:57:50 <Sgeo> http://john.freml.in/macroexpand-dammit I don't get the point of this. Can't macros take the environment as an argument?