00:00:25 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:00:25 -!- retupmoca [~retupmoca@adsl-99-181-132-232.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:00:37 -!- yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Quit: computer sleeping] 00:01:46 yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:02:22 Odin- [~sbkhh@214-106-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is] has joined #lisp 00:03:18 (format t "~v@{~a~:*~}~*~a" 3 "certain string " ".") 00:05:09 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-151-150.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:04 fjl [~fjl@77-21-157-206-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 00:06:39 stassats: thanks, I definitively need to learn the format language 00:11:47 format kind of needs a book 00:14:41 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 00:19:29 *Sgeo* wants a Learn You A Common Lisp 00:19:30 >.> 00:21:05 Sgeo: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book 00:22:37 " Even handicapped by my then rudimentary knowledge of Common Lisp and having to look up even basic functions, it still felt more productive than it would have been to rewrite the same program in Java, even with several extra years of Java experience acquired since writing the first version." 00:22:59 "Better than Java" isn't exactly a high bar. 00:25:08 Neither is "snootier than Java programmers", but that book manages to stay well below it most of the time. 00:26:03 (Also, you might be interested in 'Land of Lisp'.) 00:27:39 Are there any libraries to add a Haskell-like static typing thing to CL? 00:27:40 >.> 00:27:59 adu [~ajr@64.134.96.220] has joined #lisp 00:28:19 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129187010.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:28:23 they call that library "Haskell", although it has its own compiler these days. 00:28:37 lol 00:28:48 Sgeo: haskell is a very good haskell. 00:28:49 there was this Qi language 00:29:28 where the author kept oscillating between developing it or not 00:32:30 -!- fjl [~fjl@77-21-157-206-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:32:39 davlap [~davlap@c-24-147-211-14.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:18 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:33:36 -!- drdo [~drdo@drdo.eu] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 00:33:49 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.54.87] has joined #lisp 00:34:56 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.54.87] has left #lisp 00:42:44 .... 00:43:37 "Each of the seven guilds possesses a powerful bug-killing weapon that is unique to Lisp!" "Right now, we're on the ship from the Functional Guild... It is the most beautiful ship in the fleet!" 00:43:40 Uh.... 00:43:48 Haskell would like to have a word 00:44:04 Although admittedly, it may not have the other things talked about 00:44:36 the author wrote something for haskell as well, iirc. It's a cute hyperbolic comic. 00:45:03 ltaoist [~mo@2001:250:3002:4650:226a:8aff:fe39:64c5] has joined #lisp 00:45:27 *Sgeo* smiles at the continuation guild thing 00:46:13 What is the "Restart guild" a reference to? 00:46:26 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.152.109] has joined #lisp 00:46:49 restarts, presumably. part of the condition-handling mechanisms. 00:48:01 Lazy guild! 00:48:42 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-10-77.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:49:02 Lazy evaluation is not limited to Haskell. 00:49:03 :p 00:49:45 -!- ltaoist [~mo@2001:250:3002:4650:226a:8aff:fe39:64c5] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:50:09 Although it'd probably take judicious use of symbol macros to implement it well in CL... 00:52:08 I think what I really want is Haskell in a highly dynamic environment like Smalltalk and CL have 00:52:10 >.> 00:53:18 drdo [~drdo@ling0.drdo.eu] has joined #lisp 00:53:34 Sgeo: ask in #haskell. 00:53:45 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:39 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:56:53 Ansik [~user@124.116.210.237] has joined #lisp 00:59:19 -!- saste [~saste___@dynamic-adsl-78-15-174-230.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:59:50 If or is a macro, there's no way I can give it to an apply-like function, is there? 01:00:36 <|3b|> right, but you can pass SOME instead 01:00:41 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 01:01:24 -!- sloanr [~user@c-75-72-180-95.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:01:53 so 01:02:08 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:02:20 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:03:02 im trying to use commonqt, is kdebindings package a dependency, or does smoke do that 01:03:52 kdebindings is an old name for stuff which included smoke 01:05:06 -!- adu [~ajr@64.134.96.220] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:05:35 adu [~ajr@64.134.96.220] has joined #lisp 01:05:58 maybe it's not old name and is still used, but it's nothing by itself, it just includes stuff 01:08:52 "Whether Clojure, Scheme, Arc, or Emacs Lisp" 01:09:01 Isn't emacs lisp rather considered to ... not be great? 01:09:07 -!- ddp [~ddp@anon-184-35.relakks.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:09:20 ddp [~ddp@cpe-75-85-147-17.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:10:00 i consider Clojure, Arc, and Emacs Lisp not being gret 01:10:41 -!- davlap [~davlap@c-24-147-211-14.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:11:24 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-52-198.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 01:11:53 "Because the lack of state will always be ensured".... Does CL have any support for catching accidentally using non-functional functions in places? 01:12:11 CL is not a functional language 01:12:47 So why is that line in the Land of Lisp video? 01:13:03 because the author doesn't know what he's talking about? 01:13:28 <|3b|> or was talking about something else 01:13:29 or you misinterpreting what he said 01:13:52 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM1Zb3xmvMc& 01:14:12 -!- tempire [~tempire@pool-72-91-241-135.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:14:15 -!- brooke [~brooke@c-71-63-19-18.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:14:37 *|3b|* suspects you shouldn't take songs too literally 01:14:39 i don't think you should base your information source on a music video 01:14:40 stassats`: i cant seem to find what I need to make commonqt work :( 01:14:48 -!- X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:14:52 Around 2:27 01:14:58 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A3016.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:15:15 cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has joined #lisp 01:15:15 tempire [~tempire@pool-72-91-241-135.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:25 *|3b|* interprets that particular bit as saying that if you write functional code (as opposed to gratuitously OO code) you can compose it without worrying about state 01:15:33 quazimod1: qt headers, qmake, libmsmoke and libsmokeqt libraries and headers 01:15:38 gcc, make 01:16:30 Are macros first-class? Can I manipulate them at runtime at all? 01:16:44 hi, is anyone having issues with babel from ql on sbcl 1.55 debian 6 enc-unicode.lisp? 01:16:50 <|3b|> they are and you can, but doing so isn't necessarily meaningful 01:17:22 stassats`: libmsmoke is a typo right 01:17:30 <|3b|> a macro is just a normal function 01:17:47 quazimod1: obviously 01:18:07 stassats libsmoke from apt-git has so many qt packages :/ 01:18:42 <|3b|> the only difference is that the compiler calls it on the source during compilation, instead of compiling a call to the function 01:19:16 quazimod1: are you on debian? 01:19:26 stassats`: buntu 11.1 01:20:31 quazimod1: then install libqt4-dev libsmokeqt4-dev 01:21:16 have them :/ 01:21:27 then you're set 01:21:32 ; Evaluation aborted on #. 01:21:38 im running a stock hello world program 01:22:00 also I used autolisp to get the commonqt libs 01:22:12 quicklisp 01:22:13 autolisp? 01:22:35 quazimod1: what does (machine-type) return? 01:22:51 and what does arch in the terminal return? 01:23:18 x86 01:23:25 i686 01:23:45 so, that's correct 01:24:00 now, can you go to the directory with commonqt and issue qmake and then make? 01:25:03 not sure where autolisp put commonqt' ill go look (doesn't autolisp configure it automatically?) 01:25:04 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 01:25:14 it's not autolisp, it's quicklisp! 01:26:00 *quazimod1* is silly 01:26:19 Arrdem [~reid@resnet-46-120.dorm.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 01:26:35 erm, so im in the quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/commonqt-201110522-git/ dir, did qmake and make 01:26:39 nothing to do 01:27:04 Is flet somewhat analogous to some uses of where in Haskell? Can SLIME pull out selected code in a function definition into an flet? 01:27:35 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81A1E3.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:28:13 "Bindings are not recursive and cannot refer to each other." 01:28:18 Sgeo: it doesn't have such functionality 01:28:30 quazimod1: alright, now, can you give me the real error you got? 01:28:42 not " Evaluation aborted" part 01:28:47 the the line from the debugger 01:31:21 -!- Arrdem [~reid@resnet-46-120.dorm.utexas.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:31:22 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Quit: return 0;] 01:32:07 http://paste.lisp.org/display/127845 :: Unable to load foreign library (LIBRARY-994). 01:32:11 Error opening shared object "/home/quazimodo/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/commonqt-20110522-git/libcommonqt.so": 01:32:14 /home/quazimodo/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/commonqt-20110522-git/libcommonqt.so: undefined symbol: _ZN5Smoke8classMapE. 01:32:17 [Condition of type CFFI:LOAD-FOREIGN-LIBRARY-ERROR] 01:32:19 oh sorry, didn't mean to do that 01:32:39 LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-10-77.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:15 maybe i should distclean and then make again? 01:33:20 -!- kruhft [~user@S0106002401f331bd.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:33:26 make harder 01:33:27 yes, try that 01:33:52 gf3: ill make you harder 01:33:58 oh shi- 01:34:27 oh shi- 01:35:17 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@216.99.52.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:35:37 please, stop all this nonsense 01:36:25 sorry, so it loads qt and returns a T 01:36:51 To load "qt": Load 1 ASDF system: qt ; Loading "qt" ....... T 01:38:22 Kron_ [~Kron@216.99.52.253] has joined #lisp 01:40:52 stassats`: maybe the quicklisp version of it is no good? 01:41:06 no, it is good 01:41:13 your libraries are just messed up 01:41:32 the ones I installed via apt-get? 01:41:53 yes 01:44:19 well this is somewhat disappointing :? 01:44:48 ... wasn't that in the patch I submitted last year? 01:44:56 let me check 01:45:40 quazimod1: what version of smoke do you have? 01:46:22 core is 4.7.1 01:46:35 the other stuff is 4.7.4 01:47:03 quazimod1: that must be the problem 01:47:09 quazimod1: https://github.com/unya/commonqt/commit/8157cb72c30f7bdd74b7b3337f6c4806df14ba4f <--- you need this 01:47:21 stassats`: the problem is a bug in commonqt.pro 01:47:23 it may be an ubuntu specific problem, because I'm seeing exactly the same breakage. 01:48:02 p_l: you are awesome :D 01:48:16 quazimod1: does it work? 01:48:18 Fade: commonqt doesn't link to necessary libs 01:48:28 *quazimod1* is this a patch file? 01:49:03 p_l: well, it always worked for me without this 01:49:04 quazimod1: in a way. Just do the change to commonqt.pro 01:49:05 im not sure how to apply, im assuming its literally a patch file rigth? 01:49:16 quazimod1: you can do it by hand 01:49:42 I could make it into a patch, but I sent it as a pull request last year... 01:49:50 hrm 01:49:58 if it resolves the problem, i'll commit it to the gitorious repository 01:50:57 p_l: it broke the build 01:51:00 hmm 01:51:11 can you pastebin me the result? 01:51:16 sure 01:52:20 in any case, you should really update Qt so that everything is at the same version 01:52:25 http://ideone.com/Qpwed 01:52:40 stassats`: it is 01:52:42 i have 01:52:57 Is there any way to safely run untrusted Lisp code in a live Lisp image? 01:52:59 quazimod1: .... waaat 01:53:13 don't compile it like that 01:53:28 Sgeo: no 01:54:01 after patching commonqt.pro, do standard build. You tried to compile a library source code into executable, and linker couldn't find "main" 01:54:10 or so it looks like 01:54:26 p_l: it looks like i did that because my term didnt put the newline in 01:54:31 i only typed qmake, then make 01:54:57 stassats`, aww :( 01:54:59 anything after that is auto, notme 01:55:08 quazimod1: you messed up your .pro file 01:55:51 Sgeo: it's easier just to use OS-level restrictions 01:55:54 quazimod1: you need to type "qmake commonqt.pro" 01:55:57 like jails or something 01:55:59 not just "qmake" 01:56:03 at least works on my machine 01:56:05 p_l: no 01:56:08 just qmake 01:56:34 stassats`: you are right, im an idiot 01:56:43 typo'd in a y accidentally wen exitin emacs 01:56:57 why do you need to exit emacs? 01:57:05 stassats`, but what I'm envisioning is a game, where players can run _some_ code that can run, but for full access, other players vote on the snippit of code 01:57:12 stassats`: oh? I always did it like that ^^; 01:57:17 Lispnomic 01:57:18 Sgeo: I have a similar idea 01:57:20 for a MUD 01:57:23 p_l: no you know better 01:57:25 called MULCH 01:57:27 now 01:57:34 Cosman246, have you ever played with a codenomic? 01:57:38 no 01:58:31 *quazimod1* kisses stassats` and p_l on the mouth 01:58:38 does it work? 01:58:48 yep 01:58:52 http://paste.lisp.org/+2QNA 01:58:53 sorry for being silly 01:59:07 np. 01:59:14 I was quite stumped when I hit that as well 01:59:21 (after upgrading Qt/Smoke) 01:59:24 howd you solve it 01:59:30 Cosman246, google Perlnomic 01:59:44 Although if I were to make a codenomic, it would not be a bunch of files on a webserver, I think 01:59:45 now, why does it work on debian without -lsmokebase? 01:59:52 mad ldd/readelf skills? Nah, not really, noticed win32 already have the lib ;) 01:59:56 ok 02:00:01 stassats`: older smoke? 02:00:13 oh crap i am late for an appointment 02:00:23 ill be back, stassats` and p_l really, thank you 02:00:29 see you 02:01:37 Sgeo: mine will be a bunch of files and a REPL on a telnet server 02:01:47 alright, i'll commit it to the official repository 02:02:14 -!- skalawag [~user@c75-110-196-16.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has left #lisp 02:02:48 Why files at all? >.> 02:02:52 if you can figure the case with debian, it would be nice - I don't run debian anywhere, so... 02:03:16 -!- adu [~ajr@64.134.96.220] has quit [Quit: adu] 02:04:14 Sgeo: I can read Cyrillic, but I can't parse Slavic languages just yet 02:04:32 *Sgeo* blinks 02:04:41 http://www.perlnomic.org/ 02:05:13 PerlNomic itself died some time ago 02:05:20 ah 02:05:29 And really, this won't be a traditional nomic 02:05:34 seeing as it is already a MUD 02:05:47 with roleplaying and such 02:06:06 -!- vervic [~vervic@88.116.134.106] has quit [Quit: vervic] 02:06:32 p_l: ok, it's in, should land in the next quicklisp 02:07:25 yay 02:07:32 Is there a standard convention for event handling? 02:07:41 tswett [~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett] has joined #lisp 02:07:52 *Sgeo* points tswett to Cosman246 02:08:03 Hi. 02:08:27 tswett is/was working on a MOO nomic thingy 02:08:49 tswett: Can I see? 02:08:57 I haven't written any code to speak of. 02:09:01 ah 02:09:09 What was the model? 02:09:11 I'm mostly given up on the grounds that a good enough programming environment doesn't exist. 02:09:25 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:09:49 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-80.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:10:39 Um, I guess there would be a Smalltalk image, or something a lot like it. Users would all be able to run code with their own permissions. There would also be a proposal system so that users could run stuff with full permissions if they agreed on it. 02:10:46 p_l: your fix works 02:11:07 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-80.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:12:49 Ah 02:12:53 Sounds like a good idea 02:12:57 I think I'll steal it 02:12:59 Sgeo: I suggest you to start reading some tutorial and doing some experiments with CL. Note that Practical Common Lisp is more like Real World Hasekll than like Learn You a Haskell. 02:13:00 Thanks 02:13:20 But...well... 02:13:20 You're welcome. 02:13:21 hmm 02:13:25 parts of it don't fit 02:13:31 I guess it'll have to be an OOC thing 02:13:35 at least partially 02:13:37 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-110-63.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:13:59 and the "run on your own" thing might need to be dropped 02:14:32 You could say some of the characters are wizards with eldritch powers. Eldritch powers that, through sheer coincidence, just happen to be identical to some programming language. 02:14:42 Wait, Sgeo, are you coming here from the Haskell world? 02:14:48 tswett: True 02:15:16 Cosman246, pretty much, yeah 02:15:45 But I want all sorts of characters to be able to contribute, so I'll allow OOC contribution as well for non-eldritchen 02:15:59 *tswett* nods. 02:16:06 Sgeo: Welcome! 02:16:26 Thanks, tswett 02:16:27 can you move your discussion to #lispgames? 02:16:34 OK 02:16:48 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:07 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 02:17:46 -!- kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:17:49 leo2007 [~leo@123.123.251.32] has joined #lisp 02:21:02 Is there a more or less standard way to do events. That is, my library raises events which client code can hook into? 02:21:55 conditions? 02:22:55 I don't know anything about the condition system. Is that like exceptions, or does it also have uses cases as events? 02:23:56 you can use it as events 02:24:39 kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:55 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-10-77.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:26:01 depends on how you want to make hooks work. It can be done through CLOS, through conditions, through defined lists of hook closures/functions that would be called (emacs-style) 02:28:02 There's no one conventional way to do it? 02:28:20 conditions are conventional 02:28:32 unless you mean something else by "events" 02:28:51 Probably not 02:30:31 Sgeo: the condition system in CL is really powerful, you can: #1 raise a condition, #2 handle a condition, #3 provide restarts 02:30:51 But... my conditions aren't errors. 02:30:59 Does anyone know a good resource for gensym? 02:31:05 They're more along the lines of "Someone entered the area" 02:31:08 Oops, name collision with a user 02:31:09 who said something about errors? 02:31:34 errors are just a kind of condition. 02:31:35 The "raise" terminology I guess 02:31:37 >.> 02:31:39 you can make your own 02:31:44 based on CLOS 02:32:04 Sgeo: it's "signal" in CL 02:32:28 yes my bad, s/raise/signal/ 02:32:39 Can I have the prospective signaler know who is prepared to handle conditions? 02:32:55 Because it needs to register the possibilities with the C API 02:33:38 what C API? 02:34:39 http://wiki.activeworlds.com/index.php?title=SDK 02:34:43 Just... be afraid 02:36:17 you want to learn CL to use a C API? 02:37:04 No, but whenever I look at languages I contemplate (usually without actually taking action) how I'd use that API from the language. 02:40:17 LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-10-77.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:42:59 -!- jkc53 [~jcunningh@174-31-72-78.spkn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:43:48 -!- dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:43:54 -!- vairav [~vairav@209.49.23.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:44:39 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.106.180] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:45:38 dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:17 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483DA6E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:47:49 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483DA2B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:51:01 -!- mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has left #lisp 02:52:29 borkman [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:01 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 03:03:53 -!- Ashii_ [~Ashii@c-0657e255.246-1-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:05:43 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.123.251.32] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.4.1] 03:08:37 mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has joined #lisp 03:08:53 -!- Vutral [~ss@2a01:198:35a::1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:11:46 Vutral [~ss@2a01:198:35a::1] has joined #lisp 03:11:46 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 03:13:28 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.133.173] has quit [Quit: rme] 03:16:02 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@183.106.96.8] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:16:30 -!- decaf [~mehmet@unaffiliated/decaf] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:18:10 -!- dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:19:58 dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:12 kanru` [~user@154-93.80-90.static-ip.oleane.fr] has joined #lisp 03:32:00 _nix00 [~Adium@58.33.122.180] has joined #lisp 03:35:20 leo2007 [~leo@114.249.202.130] has joined #lisp 03:35:33 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.163.92] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:35:49 -!- lebro [~monx@ool-18bc4a28.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:39:37 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-10-77.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:44:43 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 03:48:28 http://i.imgur.com/7WfRu.jpg 03:48:52 this is not appropriate in #lisp 03:49:11 OK, OK 03:49:11 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@58.62.241.244] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:49:15 Wrong channel 03:49:34 gaidal [~gaidal@58.62.241.244] has joined #lisp 03:54:29 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:59:14 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@205.233.81.158] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:59:33 lemoinem [~swoog@239-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:57 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:10:43 cheier [~amedueces@c-98-251-147-85.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:19 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:12:43 Arrdem [~reid@resnet-46-120.dorm.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 04:21:38 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@58.62.241.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:22:33 BixSqrl [~Bix@c-50-131-212-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:33:52 gaidal [~gaidal@58.62.107.253] has joined #lisp 04:34:43 *Sgeo* vaguely ponders using Liskell 04:38:27 -!- Phooodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:40:37 -!- zophy [~zophy@host-5-150-220-24.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:40:46 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:41:13 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 04:41:14 "Its worth emphasizing that bottom-up design doesnt mean just writing the same program in a different order. When you work bottom-up, you usually end up with a different program. Instead of a single, monolithic program, you will get a larger language with more abstract operators, and a smaller program written in it." 04:41:41 I guess one of the thing that unnerves me is the possibility of different groups of people writing different abstract operators that do similar things, then trying to combine those together 04:41:52 As well as the possibility of reinventing the wheel frequently 04:42:34 That does happen, but it happens either way you do it. 04:43:35 If everyone grows their own languages, you end up with a mishmash of incompatible languages, but sometimes there are operations that really stand out and get adopted by everyone, making the core language richer for it. 04:44:19 That may be less likely to happen doing top-down design, as the low-level bits of those programs tend to be more tightly coupled with their problem domain. 04:44:48 helichopter [~austin@ool-4577ba80.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:46:20 "No other language has anything like Lisp macros. 04:46:20 " 04:46:24 Sgeo: a good interface hides implementation details. 04:46:29 Does Template Haskell not count? 04:46:40 I mean, it's usually used with reluctance, but still 04:47:05 there are plenty of immature languages with things that vaguely resemble lisp macros these days 04:57:21 zophy [~zophy@host-5-150-220-24.midco.net] has joined #lisp 04:57:27 When was On Lisp written? 04:57:42 Every programming language that I'm actually willing to touch has functions as a data type. 04:58:03 Well, hmm, does Smalltalk count? 04:58:30 yea 04:59:06 Sgeo: is it that hard to google? The first hit for "on lisp" has "By Paul Graham; Prentice Hall, 1993, ISBN 0130305529", *on the result page*. 04:59:27 >.> 04:59:30 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:59:53 CL's (and Scheme's) lambda syntax seems a bit verbose IMO 05:00:51 CL is not trying to win code-golf competitions 05:05:22 Argh 05:05:54 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:07:03 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-80.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:08:21 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-80.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:08:55 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.235.212] has joined #lisp 05:08:55 -!- gor[e] [~svr@gw2.masterhost.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:11:51 This get stuff.... property lists... I knew Picolisp had them but didn't realize that CL might 05:14:59 Sgeo: "might"? 05:15:32 loke, as in, before seeing On Lisp mention them, it didn't cross my mind to ask whether that was a Picolisp-specific thing 05:16:35 To be honest, they are very rarely used. 05:18:29 "When we define functions with lambda-expressions, we face a restriction which doesnt arise with defun: a function defined in a lambda-expression doesnt have a name and therefore has no way of referring to itself. This means that in Common Lisp we cant use lambda to define a recursive function." 05:18:36 *cough* y *cough* 05:18:56 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:19:19 even without y, it's still not true 05:19:35 Hmm? 05:19:52 I mean, there are other fix-point operators, I think 05:20:04 But does CL have a more direct way of having a lambda refer to itself? 05:20:07 xyxu1 [~xyxu@222.68.152.109] has joined #lisp 05:20:21 CL has LABELS 05:20:35 THat's what that text was meant to introduce 05:20:42 Sgeo: yes 05:21:03 the - dynamic variable 05:21:13 sorry not dynamic 05:21:15 the - variable 05:21:21 otherwise (let* (x (y (lambda () (funcall x)))) (setf x y) (funcall y)) 05:21:29 loke: it's only for the repl 05:21:37 stassats: oh... 05:21:42 never mind then 05:22:01 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.152.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:22:05 and it will not refer to lambda, just the current expression 05:23:47 stassats`: or even (let (x) (funcall (setf x (lambda () (funcall x))))) 05:24:05 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@214-106-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:24:08 or (let ((y (lambda (f) (funcall f f)))) (funcall y y)) 05:26:10 stassats: that's essentially Y though :-) 05:26:39 not really 05:26:42 hugoduncan [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584440.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 05:27:55 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:28:21 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:28:23 stassats: well, kinda. Y is about passing in a reference to itself when calling a lambda 05:29:46 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584440.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:31:08 ok 05:31:11 time to go bking 05:31:23 burger king? 05:32:35 biking :-) 05:32:41 mountain, that is 05:34:05 "and also let*, in which imperative programs often lie concealed." 05:34:22 Hmm, I wonder if that's almost a subtle suggestion to cut down on my use of let in Haskell 05:34:43 Actually, I don't use Haskell's let quite that often or like that, I think 05:37:46 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:38:27 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:38 what kind of nonsense are you reading? 05:40:50 On Lisp 05:40:55 ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has joined #lisp 05:40:55 I think 05:41:14 well, pg is know for that 05:42:08 are you new to lisp? if so, don't read On Lisp just yet 05:42:10 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:42:52 Does having looked at lisp before count as not being new? 05:43:12 looking doesn't count 05:43:18 can you write non-trivial programs? 05:43:23 ..in lisp. 05:43:51 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 05:44:15 Never tried, so I'll assume no 05:44:27 On Lisp is not that bad, you just need to first build a resistance to some of pg ideas 05:44:39 some of which aren't considered idiomatic nowadays 05:45:19 and saying that let* leads to imperative programs is just silly 05:45:46 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@58.33.122.180] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:45:57 I'm feeling some resistance, but mostly to when he says that this or that is unique to Lisp when I know it isn't 05:46:04 -!- sigjuice [~sigjuice@c-71-204-168-88.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:46:11 -!- BixSqrl [~Bix@c-50-131-212-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:46:11 Although I guess some things may have been when it was written 05:47:32 p_l: yo im back, so i plan on building my gui in qtcreator, then attaching those guis to the software that i'd like to write in commonqt, does that make sense ? 05:48:13 I feel like he's trying to sell me a product from his company saying "Look, it does XYZ, and competitor SNJV's product doesn't do any of those things" when I already excluded SNJV from my thoughts a long time ago and am looking at another competitor who's more competitive. 05:48:22 I'm already sold on XYZ 05:48:33 BixSqrl [~Bix@c-50-131-212-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:57 some aren't 05:48:57 -!- yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Quit: computer sleeping] 05:50:12 I think I like the notion of macros (which Template Haskell has but they're ugly and rarely used), but at the same time Haskell has stuff that makes a lot of Lisp's usage of macros unnecessary. 05:50:24 Although I guess not all. 05:50:41 Maybe not even "a lot", come to think of it. But certainly the examples of user-defined flow control. 05:51:17 (not "the", just in general, I guess. I'm not looking at specific examples here) 05:51:29 parabolize [~gyro@c-75-70-14-105.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:53:29 of course, lazy evaluation isn't free 05:54:10 flow control macros probably aren't good examples in general, but they'd be a lot uglier done using just HOFs, with respect to the perverse lisp sense of aesthetics 05:54:34 erm, so i just did a (program-name), tested it and closed it but it appears that lisp (sbcl in slime) hasn't really ended the process or thread, how ican i force it out of the program? 05:54:42 restart lisp? 05:55:27 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-169-170.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:55:51 interrupt it and abort 05:56:09 stassats`: im very new to slime, im not sure how 05:56:14 reading the docs atm 05:56:15 C-c C-c 05:56:28 Ralith, I wasn't particularly referring to lazy evaluation, more to first-class IO. 05:56:45 (Not sure if it's appropriate to call it first-class. But IO actions as values) 05:56:58 Well, at least for the imperative stuff. 05:56:59 Sgeo: lazy evaluation is what allows flow user-defined control in Haskell. 05:57:05 Haskell doesn't have imperative stuff. 05:57:08 Ralith: that, and do notation. 05:57:21 Ralith: IO begs to disagree. 05:57:24 pkhuong: you mean monads? 05:57:27 stassats`: some how it died by itself :/ 05:57:41 its C-c C-b according to the docs, to send a sigint 05:57:57 pkhuong: IO can beg all it likes :P 05:57:59 Ralith, forM_ does not do what it does by manipulating laziness. 05:58:00 C-c C-c is for slime compile defun? 05:58:29 Does "flow control" mean anything outside of side-effects? 05:58:36 Sgeo: if you're referring to monadic flow control, that can be implemented in just about any language. 05:58:43 Ralith: I mean the IO type. 05:59:04 *Sgeo* did mean to refer to monadic flow control 05:59:05 >.> 05:59:11 quazimod1: C-h k C-c C-c 05:59:21 But outside of a monad, what meaning does flow control have? 05:59:41 Sgeo: ah. Defining 'if' as a function is one of the classic examples of lazy evaluation. 06:00:02 weirdly enough when i click the x to exit the gui it kills the sbcl 06:00:20 Ralith, if Haskell were strict but still pure, would still be doable. Wouldn't be efficient, but it would still work. 06:00:31 Hmm, I guess except in the case of tail-call recursion 06:00:45 I assume you meant to say "...monadic flow control would..." 06:01:10 Ralith, what does the program see, if the if calculates both things and just gives the relevent one? 06:01:24 I don't understand your question. 06:02:18 Ralith, if the if evaluates both the stuff to do if true and the stuff to do if false, yet only gives the correct one, does it still work properly? 06:02:20 Ralith: thank you D: 06:02:21 :D 06:02:39 quazimod1: it's also useful to know the complimentary operation: C-h w 06:02:51 when people say emacs is self-documenting they're quite serious, after all. 06:03:23 Sgeo: that depends on whether the 'stuff' is pure. 06:04:03 Ralith, let's say we're not in a monad, so it is. Although even if we give IO arguments as the things, it's still going to evaluate and not execute 06:04:16 -!- xyxu1 [~xyxu@222.68.152.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:04:23 (Although if one of them is bottom then it does break) 06:04:49 -!- austinh [~austin@c-24-21-49-222.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has left #lisp 06:06:17 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-80.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:06:25 Let's say that this is a strict and pure function: 06:06:40 Sgeo: #haskell is probably better suited. 06:06:52 Ralith, want to take this to #haskell ? 06:07:21 take what, exactly? 06:07:28 I'm not sure what you're working towards here. 06:07:35 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-80.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:07:35 The discussion 06:08:00 question stands 06:08:22 phadthai_ [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 06:08:51 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:08:59 Is this the point under discussion: "User-definable flow control in Haskell relies on laziness." 06:09:01 ? 06:09:41 that is not a position I hold; I had just incorrectly assumed that you were referring to that in particular. 06:09:52 Oh 06:09:57 -!- leo2007 [~leo@114.249.202.130] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.4.1] 06:10:01 Cristi [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has joined #lisp 06:10:35 if you have reason to believe that monadic flow control cannot be easily implemented outside of haskell, I'd be interested to hear that, though 06:10:45 -!- sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 06:12:31 I don't know of many languages in which every IO operation is, in fact, monadic, and thus as easy to build flow control for (monadic flow control) than other languages, in which you'd presumably have to wrap your actions inside something. 06:12:45 Such as a lambda 06:12:54 sigjuice [~sigjuice@c-71-204-168-88.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:13:01 So I guess it's more of a culture thing. 06:13:06 -!- ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:13:22 -> #haskell 06:20:08 cpc261 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has joined #lisp 06:20:59 Oh, Sgeo and Ralith are talking in here. 06:21:05 *shachaf* considers reading the backlog. 06:21:12 were. 06:21:23 it's not particularly interesting 06:21:33 "monadic" is a silly word anyway. 06:21:54 The IO type in Haskell is a monad only out of convenience, not necessity. 06:22:51 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:23:03 *shachaf* stops. 06:23:27 "All the functions given as arguments to compose must be functions of one argument, except the last. " 06:23:47 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:23:53 Why not have each function accepts as many arguments as the prior (in terms of execution) function gives? 06:24:05 Do the utility functions that I was pointed to do that, or what? 06:26:18 Probably because that would lead to exciting failure cases due to incompatible interfaces. 06:27:01 Whereas you can always convert a function accepting N arguments into one accepting 1 argument. 06:27:28 *hefner* imagines a version of compose using multiple-value-call 06:28:18 *Sgeo* vaguely notes that Racket comes with compose 06:31:32 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.125.53] has joined #lisp 06:32:48 -!- phadthai_ is now known as phadthai 06:33:31 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-80.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:34:14 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:34:47 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:34:50 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-80.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:34:58 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:35:36 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:35:44 This is a thing that always messes me up when my language-searching hits Lisp: Which Lisp? 06:35:56 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #lisp 06:36:12 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:36:45 are you asking a question? 06:37:39 Not... really, I think the people here would probably say CL 06:38:17 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:40:17 phadthai: curious nick. 06:42:07 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:43:13 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 06:46:34 I vaguely remember storming off from Common Lisp because of append's recycling (I think it's called) 06:47:09 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:47:46 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-80.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:48:10 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:48:53 Sgeo: i don't understand what you're talking about 06:49:05 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-80.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:50:15 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:50:21 The list returned by append, if modified, can also modify the last list passed in to append 06:50:28 If I understand correctly. 06:51:30 oh no that's terrible 06:52:40 Sgeo: not can, it will, that's how it's specified 06:52:51 how else would it be? 06:53:10 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:53:15 stassats, append could make a copy of the last list and use that 06:53:32 why should it do that? 06:53:44 if you want to make a copy, make it yourself 06:54:15 What does it do for the other arguments? 06:54:46 it copies them 06:54:47 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:55:01 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-80.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:55:18 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 06:55:38 before you ask "why?", because it can't not copy them 06:55:46 So why is append inconsistent in whether or not it copies its arguments? That's a weird API to have, I think 06:55:51 nconc doesn't copy, it destructively modifies it 06:56:02 Sgeo: it's perfectly consistent 06:56:17 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-80.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:56:17 Perfectly consistent with doing the least amount it needs to? 06:56:25 that's how linked lists work 06:57:04 it's specified to be efficient 06:57:11 This is a ridiculous issue to nitpick. If you don't mutate the list, you won't have a problem. If you do mutate the list, know what the hell you're doing. 06:57:50 append copying every argument would be reasonable, too, but who cares? 06:57:59 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.141.144] has joined #lisp 06:58:00 hefner: i do! 06:58:50 if you want copies, use CONCATENATE 06:58:56 stassats`: yeah, you and everyone else would end up writing your own slightly more efficient APPEND function, which is presumably why CL specifies it like it did. Whatever. 06:59:08 I'm just trying to shut the guy up. 06:59:44 though, i'd probably use NCONC anyway, or rather not append things at all 07:00:57 of all the reasons to decide not to use CL, whether APPEND reuses storage would probably not be on my top 100. 07:02:18 it'd be a reason to use CL for me, because you can do both with APPEND, just write (append lists (copy-list list)) if needed 07:04:00 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:05:28 hefner: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_sjK18HhPluw/TBeLi0dnsmI/AAAAAAAABqg/l3k3SIthKwU/s1600/phad-thai.jpg :) 07:05:40 sharps [~hazel@121-72-240-85.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 07:05:50 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 07:07:14 CrLF0710 [~user@114.96.74.112] has joined #lisp 07:10:38 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@216.99.52.253] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 07:10:38 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-169-170.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:11:51 jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-121.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:12:50 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-146.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:13:09 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.158.44] has joined #lisp 07:13:09 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.158.44] has quit [Changing host] 07:13:09 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 07:13:39 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:14:11 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-151-150.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:14:20 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 07:14:43 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-80.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:15:35 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-128-177.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 07:15:38 sigi-ntb [~sigi@host-85-27-110-224.brutele.be] has joined #lisp 07:16:00 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-80.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:19:16 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:20:56 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 07:24:28 dnjaramba_ [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 07:25:04 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:30:29 -!- dnjaramba_ [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:30:52 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:30:57 arrr! 07:31:00 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 07:31:13 Farzad [~user@46.225.103.235] has joined #lisp 07:34:28 setmeaway [setmeaway@183.106.96.8] has joined #lisp 07:35:22 dnjaramba_ [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 07:36:13 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:37:25 *Sgeo* expresses mild alarm at macro code which doesn't use variables being bitten by local redefinitions 07:38:36 -!- sigi-ntb [~sigi@host-85-27-110-224.brutele.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:38:39 packages make it very rare. 07:38:55 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-80.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:38:57 -!- dnjaramba_ [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:39:25 do you men GENSYM makes it very rare? 07:39:41 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 07:39:52 the combination of the two, in fact. 07:40:04 I guess Sgeo was talking about code which doesn't use gensym, though. 07:40:13 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:40:14 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-80.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:40:36 I assumed he was talking about function calls in the macroexpansion. 07:40:36 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #lisp 07:40:46 hefner^^ 07:41:09 then my statement stands 07:42:00 macro or not macro, shadowing global functions with local isn't that great 07:42:01 So, within one package, I would need to be careful to not shadow my own function names when I use my macros? 07:42:31 Sgeo: careful in general, not with just macros 07:42:51 it is a confusing thing to do under any circumstances, certainly 07:43:10 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-80.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:43:18 By the way, I wonder if the hygiene macro stuff in SCM really helps... 07:43:25 you could program around it with (funcall 'toplevel-function-name ...), if you were really worried about it. 07:44:26 CrLF0710, you look Windowsy. (Are jokes ok here?) 07:44:28 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-80.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:44:30 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:44:48 :) 07:45:04 freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has joined #lisp 07:45:51 Sgeo: only if they're funny (which this one isn't) 07:46:23 sigi-ntb [~sigi@host-85-27-110-224.brutele.be] has joined #lisp 07:46:51 osa1_ [~sinan@88.243.106.57] has joined #lisp 07:47:07 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:47:36 CrLF0710: it is good 07:48:10 CL solution is fine too 07:48:45 rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has joined #lisp 07:49:11 But I wonder if it was 1989 now, what would the gang of 5 choose... 07:49:24 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-80.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:50:04 is it relevant? 07:50:09 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.152.109] has joined #lisp 07:50:32 I don't think hygienic work in common lisp 07:50:41 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-80.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:51:16 Mmm, i agree. 07:55:31 *hefner* isn't up to speed on hygienic macro systems, would be perfectly happy with CL macros plus a version of lambda with extra control over the bindings visible in the body 07:58:59 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 08:00:21 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:00:39 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 08:04:37 http://www.cliki.net/closer-mop is there a reason to keep this page around? Anyone still use asdf-install? Do any automated tools use the wiki for stuff similarly to asdf-install? 08:05:10 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:05:21 sepomex [~CornPoop@ip72-207-16-214.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:05:25 probably not. 08:07:52 Corey [~Corey@freenode/staff/corey] has joined #lisp 08:08:30 -!- sepomex [~CornPoop@ip72-207-16-214.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [K-Lined] 08:09:54 -!- Farzad [~user@46.225.103.235] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:11:23 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 08:13:25 CrLF0710` [~user@114.96.74.112] has joined #lisp 08:14:23 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:15:53 there're always some oddballs who use asdf-install 08:16:11 -!- kanru` [~user@154-93.80-90.static-ip.oleane.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:16:25 aside from the new people who don't know any better? 08:16:39 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 08:16:43 stassats: using asdf-install = bad? 08:16:56 quazimod1: yes 08:17:14 -!- CrLF0710 [~user@114.96.74.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:17:36 stassats: howcome? 08:18:00 Just use quicklisp instead... 08:18:19 because it was always broken and now nobody supports it 08:18:32 oh 08:18:41 quicklisp seems ok 08:19:48 Quicklisp is _the_ interface for (down)loading libraries. 08:20:05 -!- Ansik [~user@124.116.210.237] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:20:05 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:20:09 So is asdf-install, isn't it? 08:20:22 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:20:45 _the_ 08:20:51 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:21:07 i c... 08:21:23 Similar to Haskell's Hackage? 08:21:36 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:21:44 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:21:58 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 08:22:34 definitely fulfilling the same niche 08:23:53 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:24:41 ok 08:24:55 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.141.144] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:25:56 so atm i do (ql:quickload 'ql) before the commonqt stuff i do, would this be ok if i wanted to compile to a binary to be used elsewhere?/ 08:26:23 quazimod1: add qt as a dependency to your package 08:26:32 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:26:34 s/package/system/ 08:26:57 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:28:18 bbjwerner [~bbjwerner@c-71-227-176-38.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:29:09 Yeah, just write everything the ASDF way, and ln your directory into the "local-projects" directory of quicklisp. You can quickload your own project. 08:29:26 -!- CrLF0710` [~user@114.96.74.112] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:29:40 CrLF0710` [~user@114.96.74.112] has joined #lisp 08:30:32 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:30:57 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:31:05 CrLF0710`: that cool 08:31:36 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-80.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:31:59 so im trying to figure out how to dynamically link to qt so that i can use its lgpl license, but also i want to package all the library stuff i use with my program so that i can make executables for windows and linux easily without dependency issues 08:32:42 quazimod1: IIRC CommonQT takes care of that 08:32:54 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-80.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:33:23 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:34:16 -!- cheier [~amedueces@c-98-251-147-85.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:37:50 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-80.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:38:33 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:39:07 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-80.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:46:32 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-80.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:48:01 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-80.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:50:20 p_l: i'm not sure if its linking to libraries on my machine already, because i actually want to package the .so files with the binary for download 08:50:59 that way everything needed to run the thing is in a single tarball, zip on mac software directory thingo 08:51:06 on/or 08:52:31 you have to do that by hand, commonqt doesn't take care of it 08:52:56 i mean, gather SOs and so on 08:53:36 but it's already dynamically linked (not many lisp can do static linking, in fact) 08:55:06 stassats: ok thats fine i guess 08:57:16 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-80.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:57:36 zanahorio [~hahehihoh@124.139.60.178.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 08:58:18 -!- zanahorio [~hahehihoh@124.139.60.178.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Client Quit] 08:59:15 How would someone go about getting their own libraries into quicklisp? 08:59:28 by writing one 08:59:36 Sgeo: you file a request on the bug tracker 08:59:57 Sgeo: first question in the faq: http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/faq.html 09:00:00 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-80.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:00:34 -!- Intensity [tXBVWSXuYm@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:00:53 Hmm. 09:01:01 quazimod1: I meant the license issue 09:01:20 The notion of one person (or a group) somewhat bothers me, I think. I mean, it's understandable, I guess 09:01:30 *) controlling it 09:01:45 do you prefer anarchy? 09:02:21 it sucks, but these are human problems, solvable only by not caring. 09:03:23 Why do I keep seeing #' in front of lambdas? 09:03:31 I was under the impression that it's not necessary 09:03:42 some people like it that way 09:03:47 there's a large contingent of users who believe that software that transitively depends on 200 other libraries is a great idea, and Quicklisp solves the very important problem of shutting them the hell up about how they're supposed to install such stuff. 09:04:04 (for imaginary reasons) 09:04:49 and to be fair, it is quite convenient for quickly trying things out, if you don't resent it being around and gunking your init file and ASDF search behavior. 09:04:57 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:05:09 what's the issue with asdf install? 09:05:26 -!- ddp [~ddp@cpe-75-85-147-17.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ddp] 09:05:57 it's easy to break, not easy to use 09:08:12 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:10:06 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-209-191.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:10:06 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-209-191.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 09:10:07 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 09:10:09 Intensity [CPVwHErqeI@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 09:11:34 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-98-39.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 09:11:36 Patterngazer_ [~Patternga@globulon.pck.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 09:11:44 hefner: to be fair, pretty much every non-trivial library has plenty of dependencies and QL is the first tool that have actually solved the issue of being able to install them in any manner that even approaches acceptable. 09:12:27 -!- Arrdem [~reid@resnet-46-120.dorm.utexas.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:13:49 -!- johs [~johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:13:49 johs [~johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 09:14:26 I think Hackage automatically accepts stuff... although I think there's a lot of criticism of stuff that's low quality 09:14:49 *Sgeo* grumbles to himself about a particular FTP library 09:14:50 Arrdem [~reid@resnet-46-120.dorm.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 09:14:57 loke: it makes for fragile software. 09:15:34 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:16:35 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.125.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:17:55 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-80.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:19:06 definitely a win for scripting and tinkering, but it doesn't scale when upstream library authors can break your software. 09:19:08 hefner: what's the alternative? 09:19:15 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-80.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:19:26 hefner: always ship complete copies of your dependencies? 09:19:46 not always, there's different use cases, different needs, no one right solution. 09:20:15 A large framework should probably keep a repository with known good copies of its dependency tree, yes. 09:20:29 If not the framework itself, then certainly any serious deployment of it. 09:22:14 whereas when you're writing scripts, playing around, or writing new libraries for release, quicklisp seems to be the right interface. 09:22:17 hefner: well, all right. Let's take a concrete example then, since I'm in this situation right now. My tool, cl-gdata, depends on a slew of other libraries. I use CXML and xpath for XML stuff. I use Drakma for the HTTP stuff. Flexi-streams to handle the stream encoding, gzip-stream to be able to unpack the stream from google (it's gzipped), I'm using url-rewite to make sure all the requests are properly encoded, I use cl-ppcre for the obvious us 09:22:18 es, and a few more libraries. QL makes this trivial for me to deal with. 09:22:24 hefner: What do you suggest I should do instead? 09:22:41 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-80.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:22:42 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 09:23:03 Why not specify the version of the library needed? 09:23:26 So that upstream changes won't be used, your software just uses the version it needs? 09:23:33 Or does that not exist in the CL ecosystem yet? 09:23:51 Sgeo: because then no one would be bothered to try to find the correct versions of every library that I depend on. 09:24:02 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-80.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:24:34 If the tools did it for you... if it were a part of quicklisp or something... 09:24:44 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-402383.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 09:24:58 loke: you are the author of cl-gdata? 09:25:02 hefner: yes 09:25:19 then quicklisp + git copies of your direct dependencies, I'd imagine. 09:25:50 hefner: What would be the benefit to me? 09:26:13 I don't understand the question. 09:26:20 it works fine with the current version of the QL dist. It will work fine with the next as well. If, for some reason, it fails, then I will fix it 09:27:05 wouldn't it be nice to track your dependencies more closely, so you can fix it without it being broken for a month's cycle in quicklisp? 09:27:23 hefner: it would. 09:27:50 I don't think you're seriously suggesting you won't ever have to deal with an upstream version of a library you use, so I don't think we're arguing anything. 09:28:02 hefner: But... The amount of work needed to make sure that that doesn't happen is more than what I believe people in the CL community is willing to deal with. 09:28:31 Does Racket's PLaneT have these sorts of issues? 09:28:31 hefner: What I'm saying is that if QL was improved in the way you suggest, people wouldn't be bothered to make it work anymore. 09:28:48 what? I haven't suggested any change to QL. 09:28:49 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:29:45 hefner: Well, any change. Fact remains that before QL, it was hell to get anything to work. It's no longer hell. It could be better, yes, but we've already seen a world without QL and it's not pretty. 09:30:27 That's pretty much all that I'm saying. 09:30:28 I think the hellishness of the world before QL is greatly exaggerated. 09:31:19 hefner: Hmm, I don't think we can discuss that since it's not something that can be accutately measured. 09:31:33 *stassats* is not using ql and not planning anytime soon 09:32:15 hefner: To me, the pre-QL world was indeed hell. In fact, it was so much hell that I didn't even bother to do much real Lisp development before it, even though I've known Lisp for about 20 years. 09:32:40 But to each their own, I guess 09:33:11 I remember getting really pissed off on a few occasions chasing down dependencies and doing the clone / symlink / repeat dance, but I always blamed the library authors, not the tools. 09:33:12 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 09:33:35 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:35:25 kilon_alios [~kilon@athedsl-190202.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 09:36:17 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 09:36:22 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-402383.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:36:57 anyway, QL is a net good, considering the number of new people who don't immediately grasp the purpose of ASDF. 09:37:45 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-72-66-102-48.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:39:17 kiuma [~kiuma@93-36-15-93.ip58.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:39:51 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:49 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:41:11 -!- bbjwerner [~bbjwerner@c-71-227-176-38.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:41:56 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 09:44:35 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-121.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:44:51 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@93-36-15-93.ip58.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:46:54 fjl [~fjl@77-21-157-206-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:52:04 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:53:33 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@239-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:55:32 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 09:56:04 hi 09:58:37 -!- mathrick 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quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:18:57 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:20:05 *Sgeo* downloads lispbox and proves that he is lazy 10:20:37 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:20:55 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 10:21:50 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:23:13 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:24:44 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.158.44] has joined #lisp 10:24:45 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.158.44] has quit [Changing host] 10:24:45 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:28:20 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 10:30:35 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:31:20 -!- fjl [~fjl@77-21-157-206-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: 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testing/building systems before upgrading them 10:41:36 so that its more like a distribution 10:41:42 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 10:41:43 -!- Vutral [~ss@2a01:198:35a::1] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:41:49 and in not being reliant on a certain, easily compromised directory 10:42:32 well yea, basically with a good guy in charge.. still vulnerable to maintainer burnout, I hope xach takes it easy :-) 10:43:06 Vutral [~ss@2a01:198:35a::1] has joined #lisp 10:44:06 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:45:31 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:46:38 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 10:47:04 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:47:30 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 10:52:53 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:53:22 *Xach* is reminded of "the only safe sex is abstinence" 10:54:05 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:54:13 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:54:33 Odin- [~sbkhh@214-106-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is] has joined #lisp 10:54:54 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:55:04 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 10:56:03 hefner: if your project is broken by the most recent quicklisp dist, you can either not update, or go back to the previous working dist. 10:56:17 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:56:24 Ashii [~Ashii@c-2457e255.246-1-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 10:56:24 whether that was last month or last year or whenever. 10:57:16 that's comforting, but in hindsight, I don't think I had a coherent argument up there, to the extent I had one at all. 10:57:40 ok 10:59:05 Thanks for Quicklisp, btw. It is very cool. 10:59:29 -!- benny [~benny@i577A1AB9.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:00:01 No problem, thanks 11:03:07 Kazinator [~kaz@softbank219190010085.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 11:03:46 -!- fjl [~fjl@77-21-157-206-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:06:14 -!- Vutral [~ss@2a01:198:35a::1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:08:19 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:09:40 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:09:51 -!- webrick [root@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:09:59 Vutral [~ss@2a01:198:35a::1] has joined #lisp 11:10:08 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 11:11:01 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:13:21 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:13:32 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 11:13:58 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:14:54 Xach: when is the next update? :-) 11:15:11 mon_key: user interaction should go to *query-io*. You should never issue a prompt to *standard-output*! 11:15:27 mon_key: (progn (princ *prompt* *query-io*) (read *query-io*)) 11:16:20 hagish [~hagish@p5DCBD939.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:16:49 loke: first weekend in march, probably 11:17:26 -!- Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-16-175.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:18:12 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:18:22 Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-16-175.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:18:36 -!- ghuntley [~ghuntley@14-200-9-232.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:18:39 rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has joined #lisp 11:21:06 ghuntley [~ghuntley@14-200-9-232.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 11:25:52 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:25:53 is there a nice way to extract 4 bytes of an (unsigned-byte 8) vector as a 32 bit int in host byte order? 11:27:13 df_: shifts and adds/ors 11:27:16 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:27:36 although I'm not sure how you'd determine host byte order. 11:28:05 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@93-36-15-93.ip58.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:29:03 Xach: use a canary 32bit value and checking if it outputs the same after hton() ? 11:29:17 ... probably overdone solution 11:29:24 was hoping for a library that had done it for me 11:29:33 cl-pack is the closest thing I've found 11:29:39 trivial-features 11:29:55 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-52-198.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:30:08 df_: i end up writing it from scratch each time i need it. 11:30:29 ok 11:31:14 -!- bjonnh [~bjonnh@2a01:e35:2420:ea0:21e:64ff:fe84:8986] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:31:16 The trivial-features package will ensure you have a :little-endian in your *features* or the opposite. 11:31:44 CrLF0710`: thanks 11:32:35 (let ((vector (make-array 4 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) :initial-contents '(1 2 3 4)))) (sb-sys:with-pinned-objects (vector) (sb-sys:sap-ref-32 (sb-sys:vector-sap vector) 0))) => 67305985 11:34:01 ... 11:35:05 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.106.180] has joined #lisp 11:36:00 -!- yeltzooo [~yeltzooo@ec2-50-18-131-205.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:37:04 yeltzooo [~yeltzooo@ec2-50-18-131-205.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 11:37:08 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:37:13 -!- Intensity [CPVwHErqeI@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:37:40 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 11:39:01 daniel___ [~daniel@p50829220.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:40:26 pldn [~dvorak@77.226.151.243] has joined #lisp 11:40:46 benny [~benny@i577A1AB9.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:41:19 -!- coyo [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:41:33 -!- daniel__ [~daniel@p5082B434.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:43:00 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:44:38 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:46:03 ngz [~user@69.205.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 11:46:06 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:47:49 ,,creole 11:47:56 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 11:51:55 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:53:20 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:53:37 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:56:39 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:50 osa1__ [~sinan@81.214.243.206] has joined #lisp 11:58:00 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-178-150.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:59:00 -!- osa1_ [~sinan@88.243.106.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:02:12 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:02:15 osa1 [~sinan@88.251.131.118] has joined #lisp 12:02:29 -!- osa1__ [~sinan@81.214.243.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:02:34 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:02:47 -!- Kazinator [~kaz@softbank219190010085.bbtec.net] has left #lisp 12:03:35 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:04:40 -!- sigjuice [~sigjuice@c-71-204-168-88.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:04:40 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 12:05:44 sigjuice [~sigjuice@c-71-204-168-88.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:14 df_: http://paste.lisp.org/+2QNB 12:07:50 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:08:25 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:09:18 kai_ [~kai@f052098164.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:09:39 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:10:10 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 12:10:31 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:11:10 Intensity [qDjxirL6J8@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 12:11:11 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 12:13:41 -!- osa1 [~sinan@88.251.131.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:13:44 osa1_ [~sinan@78.175.211.87] has joined #lisp 12:13:54 pjb: I came up with http://paste.lisp.org/display/127847#1, but I guess dpb is a better bet 12:15:12 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:15:35 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 12:16:16 -!- ineiros_ [~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:17:20 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:17:41 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 12:24:39 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:25:04 -!- sharps [~hazel@121-72-240-85.cable.telstraclear.net] has left #lisp 12:25:30 vervic [~vervic@chello080109071009.14.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 12:26:15 -!- quazimod1 is now known as quazimodo 12:27:20 df_: compilers will probably generate the same code from sources using ldb/dpb or ash/logand/logor. And if they do loop unrolling, also with dotimes. 12:29:00 pjb: (+ 0 offset), surely! 12:29:25 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 12:29:44 french691 [~french@164.136.1.93.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:51 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Client Quit] 12:29:53 Hi 12:29:57 Our friend french691 is back. 12:30:10 french691: Do not change your nick! It's useless and counterproductive! 12:30:23 of course 12:30:28 french691: type /msg memoserv help 12:30:42 lol i come back with a new enigme 12:30:59 It's not funny. 12:31:10 It's very funny 12:31:41 Have you a problem 12:32:11 So what's you enigme? 12:32:27 -!- vervic [~vervic@chello080109071009.14.15.vie.surfer.at] has left #lisp 12:33:12 I try to create a recursive fct who dect if a list is a circular list : http://pastebin.com/F9m6sQax, My function doesn't function someone can help me please. 12:33:36 what does "fct" and "dect" mean? 12:33:45 Use http://paste.lisp.org/new 12:34:18 df_: http://paste.lisp.org/display/127847#2 12:35:04 french691: now, it's the fourth time you're asking something. Your code doesn't show any improvement. YOu clearly haven't read or understood what we've been telling you the first three times. What makes you think we're still motivated to answer you? 12:36:09 df_: works also on ECL 12:36:17 french691: C'est la quatrième question que vous posez ici. Votre code ne reflète aucune amélioratio. Clairement, vous n'avez pas lu ou compris ce que nous vous avons dit jusqu'à présent. Qu'est ce qui vous fait croire que nous sommes encore motivé pour vous répondre? 12:36:53 french691: go read the logs http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ , and update your code according to the advice you were given before. 12:37:36 df_: and cmucl, and lispworks 12:38:48 It's a pity that my English is not good, i would like to answered you. 12:39:16 french691: tapes /msg pjb et répondez en français! 12:40:38 pjb si tu veux pas me répondre me répond mais s'il te plait me fait pas la leçon, tu te prends pour qui parceque tu es bon en informatique, alors tu te permets de me parler comme ça. 12:40:42 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:40:57 guys, take this elsewhere now 12:41:12 rwiker [~rwiker@80.202.200.233] has joined #lisp 12:41:35 french691: Oui, c'est exactement ça. Je sais quelque chose, tu ne sais rien. Alors c'est à toi d'approcher le maître avec respect et déférence. 12:41:47 that doesn't look like /msg 12:42:09 neena [neena@unaffiliated/neenaoffline] has joined #lisp 12:42:31 pjb tu rêve t'es un maitre en rien du tout, je suis certain que tu es un programmeur médiocre? 12:43:05 french691: alors vas te faire voir sur un canal avec des programmeurs non médiocres. 12:43:48 more importanly, this is a channel where english is the language spoken 12:44:01 and Lisp 12:44:26 gsathya [~gsathya@unaffiliated/gsathya] has joined #lisp 12:44:59 va te faire voir toi meme, ta vie doit etre tellement nul que le seul endroit ou tu trouve un peu d'estime si ici sur ce chat quand des novice viennent poser des questions et que tu leur tombe dessus avec tes insultes 12:45:25 Hi, I've had code like this work before, but it doesn't seem to after hunchentoot got updated: http://paste.lisp.org/display/127848 12:46:08 samebchase: format nil returns a string, doesn't do any I/O. 12:46:10 I'm getting a "Resource /hello not found" 12:46:13 sanjoyd: you need to use 'hunchentoot:easy-acceptor 12:46:15 shouldn't it be easy-acceptor? 12:46:31 and why don't you use define-easy-handler? 12:47:00 ok I'll try that 12:47:42 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 12:47:56 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:49:09 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 12:50:08 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.106.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:50:42 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.106.180] has joined #lisp 12:51:39 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 12:51:43 gaidal_ [~gaidal@113.119.26.17] has joined #lisp 12:53:11 -!- french691 [~french@164.136.1.93.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: IRC webchat at http://irc2go.com/] 12:54:52 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@58.62.107.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:54:54 Changing it to easy-acceptor works. 12:55:04 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:56:24 ryankask [~ryan_lang@5ad641b2.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 12:57:33 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.158.44] has joined #lisp 12:57:33 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.158.44] has quit [Changing host] 12:57:33 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 12:59:09 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:59:47 hi all. I'm trying to understand quoting. If I wanted to replace this backtick quoted form with a non-backtick quoted form, how could I do this? Here is the example and my attempt: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/553385/ 13:00:30 ryankask: (list 'report-result form (list 'quote form)) 13:00:43 stassats: thanks! 13:01:01 'x == (quote x) 13:01:25 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:01:37 francogrex [~user@109.130.29.97] has joined #lisp 13:04:47 cheers 13:08:03 -!- ryankask [~ryan_lang@5ad641b2.bb.sky.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:08:42 osa1_: on the other hand, the Common Lisp standard was good the first time, Didn't need any revision. :-) 13:09:02 rvrebane [~rvrebane@valjapaas.vkhk.ee] has joined #lisp 13:09:08 pjb: well, I was about to say that, I'm not sure about it :) 13:09:12 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 13:09:26 It is a dangerous thing to say in #scheme, you get kicked for much less :-) 13:09:42 pjb: I wish we have an updating standard 13:09:44 heh 13:10:23 -!- gsathya [~gsathya@unaffiliated/gsathya] has left #lisp 13:11:01 -!- pldn [~dvorak@77.226.151.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:13:33 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.104] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 13:13:50 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:15:16 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:16:20 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:16:52 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 13:17:19 -!- conntrack [~tor@pdpc/supporter/professional/conntrack] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:17:51 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 13:20:49 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@212.71.14.175.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has quit [Quit: Boom.] 13:20:50 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.29.97] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:23:25 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:23:34 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:23:39 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 13:27:11 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:27:28 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 13:28:18 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c295b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:29:11 conntrack [~tor@host217-34-104-226.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #lisp 13:30:16 well I kind of like that you can take a package from 6 years ago, and it will pretty much run 13:30:20 unlike java 13:30:44 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:30:53 rme [~rme@50.43.133.173] has joined #lisp 13:30:55 but modernizing the standard a bit would have been nice 13:31:07 hi 13:31:11 unless the package depends on external dependencies 13:31:28 what has to be modernized in the standard? 13:31:35 in your opinion 13:31:41 prxq: PROG2 needs to be urgently fixed 13:31:55 IMHO MOP needs to be included 13:32:06 stassats: but that was so pretty much from the beginning :-) 13:32:11 maxm-: agree 13:32:12 as part of it... maybe compiler-let 13:32:33 prxq: well, it's specified to return the first value, so it's totally bogus 13:32:42 currently its hard to introspect the "what is the name of function/method I'm being expanded in" in the macros 13:32:54 no portable way other then re-defining defun/defmethod 13:33:15 MOP is already widely implemented 13:33:18 also something needs to be done to the package. 13:33:22 maxm-: why do you need that? 13:33:48 my minimal proposal is to have "lazy" resolution of symbol conflicts, rather then do it at package definition/change/export time, do it at read time 13:34:27 one possible application would be to punish users of camel case (when (camel-case-p (name (current-function))) '(error "no camel case please")) 13:34:28 this way you can (use) two packages both exporting "common-word" and won't get conflict if you always use package1:common-word or package2:common-word. You will only get conflict if you try to use "common-word" 13:34:39 thats the way java does it, and I really think its a smarter way 13:34:55 symbols are already resolved during read-time 13:35:07 prxq: I have a logging library that I'm about to publish, which auto-names loggers after their context 13:35:25 maxm-: creating the symbols on the fly? 13:35:37 so if you have package foo, function baz, the (log:debug "whatever) logger gets named foo:baz by default 13:35:51 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:36:10 maxm-: sounds interesting 13:36:21 works pretty well with sbcl 13:36:26 i can see why it would be useful 13:36:44 maxm-: without redefining defun? 13:37:09 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 13:37:11 maxm-: what about INTERN? READ only just uses INTERN. 13:37:14 prxq: under sbcl yes, without redefining defun 13:37:24 I use lexical env and sb-pcl:*method-name* 13:38:12 guess you can hook into intern, but IMHO its bad style/last resort mucking around with with (setf (fdefinition))) 13:39:06 The basic define-easy-handler example at the start of the hunchentoot documentation isn't working: http://paste.lisp.org/display/127848#1 13:39:17 bjonnh [~bjonnh@2a01:e35:8a53:8940:21e:64ff:fe84:8986] has joined #lisp 13:39:21 In what way does that need to be modified? 13:39:46 samebchase: how does it not work? 13:40:04 "Resource yo not found" 13:40:12 spearalot [~spearalot@c83-248-111-48.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:40:20 s/yo/\/yo/ 13:40:46 -!- conntrack [~tor@host217-34-104-226.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has quit [Quit: haha] 13:41:08 content-type missing a star? 13:41:14 I've run that example before on the older version 13:41:20 unless its content-type* 13:41:44 samebchase: it works for me. 13:42:09 are you sure you have this form evaluated? 13:42:09 tensorpudding_ [~michael@108.87.22.192] has joined #lisp 13:44:38 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 13:45:15 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.170.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:45:43 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:45:54 It works now. 13:46:32 Did the "Restart it and see" trick 13:46:58 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:54:27 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:55:43 xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has joined #lisp 13:55:44 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 13:56:51 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:58:04 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:58:45 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:59:32 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[~keltvek@89-212-113-105.static.t-2.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:07 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 14:31:47 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #lisp 14:33:33 sigi-ntb [~sigi@host-85-27-110-224.brutele.be] has joined #lisp 14:34:37 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.133.173] has quit [Quit: rme] 14:34:55 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:58 -!- dronf` is now known as dronf 14:37:03 Sgeo [~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:55 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 14:40:08 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:36 Kron_ [~Kron@216.99.52.253] has joined #lisp 14:48:52 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:49:04 It's pretty awesome that loading a lisp library can cause crash LispWorks. 14:49:24 -!- osa1_ [~sinan@78.175.211.87] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 14:49:31 If the library contains FFI to load a C library 14:50:14 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:50:54 pjb: I don't think it does. Any way to get a dependency list out of QL? 14:51:21 sellout: no 14:52:47 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:53:29 yes 14:54:13 stassats: Yes? Then things have changed in recent months. I asked that of Xach some months ago and the answer was no. 14:54:47 quicklisp keeps improving all the time 14:55:08 m7w [~chatzilla@31.24.92.252] has joined #lisp 14:55:25 loke: by using asdf:component-depends-on 14:55:40 prxq: obviously :-) 14:55:54 :-) 14:56:32 -!- xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:57:10 So, I managed to grab a screenshot before the last crash: "Recursive error in coerce to condition." Looks like it's inside COMPUTE-EFFECTIVE-METHOD. 14:58:42 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:59:06 stassats: well, component-depends-on only works for loaded components. What I wanted when I asked was the dependencies for components that had not yet been loaded. 14:59:39 1. load them 2. the problem is reduced to the previous 15:00:06 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:00:42 stassats: Right, but in my case, loading the system crashes the compiler. So I just have to walk through loading each dependency manually and see what explodes it. 15:00:49 sellout: why don't you trace asdf:oos? 15:01:16 sellout: "loading" here means "loading the .asd file" system? 15:01:20 stassats: in my case it was different. I needed to know which components depended on a certain library. 15:01:20 s/system?// 15:01:44 stassats: I can't remember why anymore, but it was a real issue. 15:02:09 stassats: No, load-op. But loading the .asd doesn't recursively load all the .asds for the dependencies  15:02:14 H4ns: Indeed. Thanks. 15:03:16 sellout: that's where you write a recursive function operating using asdf:component-depends-on 15:03:32 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:03:40 stassats: And that's why I was asking if QL already had a function do effectively do that. 15:03:55 -!- conntrack [~tor@pdpc/supporter/professional/conntrack] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:04:57 conntrack [~tor@pdpc/supporter/professional/conntrack] has joined #lisp 15:04:58 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:05:51 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 15:06:15 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 15:07:41 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129203122.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 15:09:11 rudi [~rudi@vpn-client192.uio.no] has joined #lisp 15:09:34 edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 15:10:25 -!- conntrack [~tor@pdpc/supporter/professional/conntrack] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:11:39 conntrack [~tor@pdpc/supporter/professional/conntrack] has joined #lisp 15:11:43 -!- ch077179 [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:12:22 ch077179 [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has joined #lisp 15:12:28 sellout: and, what system crashes lispworks? 15:16:20 H4ns: I think it's mine, which uses no FFI. Although tracing didn't really help, because the listener is cleared when it prints the exception. But I ended up just loading the dependencies, and they loaded fine. 15:16:40 sellout: i see :( 15:17:59 I need to fix my mess of scripts that allow me to easily use LW Personal via SLIME  or just not touch LW anymore. 15:18:20 sellout: you have a way to do that? :) 15:19:16 p_l: http://blog.technomadic.org/?p=86  but it breaks with each new version, pretty much. 15:19:51 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:44 francogrex [~user@109.130.29.97] has joined #lisp 15:21:20 off topic: (probabilistic) decsion making programs in lisp? any ideas? 15:21:24 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.152.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:23:31 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.104] has joined #lisp 15:25:47 francogrex: you've looked at screamer, no? 15:27:27 -!- pnq [~nick@AC814F21.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:28:33 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.158.44] has joined #lisp 15:28:34 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.158.44] has quit [Changing host] 15:28:34 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:28:41 -!- rudi [~rudi@vpn-client192.uio.no] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 15:29:30 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 15:31:13 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:31:29 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:57 H4ns: looking at it now 15:32:04 sellout: ehh... porting from AppleScript would be too painful to use that 15:32:28 p_l: Oh, right  yeah, Mac-only :) 15:35:22 Hey, awesome  connected via slime, loading my system doesn't crash lw (I get the same error, but the connection stays up and I can look at the stack and everything) 15:37:35 kwmiebach_ [~kwmiebach@xdsl-78-34-99-87.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:37:36 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:39:10 -!- ictxiangxin [~ictxiangx@220.168.197.41] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.1.1 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 15:40:30 -!- kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@xdsl-78-34-206-200.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:44:13 -!- Sgeo [~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:46:05 Sgeo [~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:17 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.29.97] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:48:20 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:39 retupmoca [~retupmoca@99.181.132.232] has joined #lisp 15:48:40 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:50:47 -!- tensorpudding_ is now known as tensorpudding 15:55:19 sellout: so it's the GUI that crashes? 15:57:32 prxq: Yep. 15:57:39 -!- CrLF0710` [~user@114.96.74.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:57:48 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:05:03 yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 16:06:20 sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:56 Is there any way to save (and restore later, of course) a foreign object when doing save-lisp-and-die? 16:12:03 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-128-177.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 16:13:58 LiamH: sb-alien does that by default. 16:14:38 -!- sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 16:14:38 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #lisp 16:14:56 If you want to perform an independent search on startup, you could use :dont-save and *init-hooks*. 16:15:46 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-150-39.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:44 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:16:56 pkhuong: Hmm. Antik user is seeing corruption http://lists.common-lisp.net/pipermail/antik-devel/2011q4/000006.html (and previous message). 16:17:42 oh, sorry, foreign object, not dso. 16:18:09 yeah 16:18:11 You'll have to build something with finalisers *save-hooks* and *init-hooks*. 16:18:33 or, ideally, not do that. 16:18:39 Right, I was thinking of something like that. Sort of like a make-load-form for foreign objects. 16:19:09 Ideally not do it? 16:19:36 trying to save cores that point to the C heap. 16:21:01 zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:39 Right. Could it work to make a start-up form that creates the foreign object, and then initialize on startup that executes that form? 16:22:38 rvrebane [~rvrebane@valjapaas.vkhk.ee] has joined #lisp 16:22:46 I think so. 16:23:01 Unless there are additional dependencies between foreign objects. 16:25:29 Right, I'll just try for the simple objects (arrays of numbers mostly). But I guess I'll need to keep track of all rebuildable foreign objects so that the save-hook knows what to create. 16:26:42 yes... 16:27:06 If you only need arrays of numbers, it may be simpler to allocate them lisp-side. 16:29:11 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:29:31 I have a make-load-form for those objects that allocates on both sides (I use static-vectors). But given the corruption from *formatting-test-grid*, that's not working the way I'd like. 16:32:25 -!- Patterngazer_ [~Patternga@globulon.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Quit: Beware of programmers who carry screwdrivers.] 16:32:50 m-l-f is invoked for fasls, not cores. 16:34:53 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:35:23 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 16:35:33 OK. I'm thinking maybe there's a way to use the hooks to call it. After all the method I want is there, just need to invoke it. 16:40:44 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:41:18 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:44:45 kenanb [5e36ede3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.54.237.227] has joined #lisp 16:45:30 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:45:37 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-209-191.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:37 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-209-191.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:45:37 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 16:46:01 Jubb [~ghost@pool-72-66-102-48.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:16 -!- rvrebane [~rvrebane@valjapaas.vkhk.ee] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:52:17 francogrex [~user@109.130.29.97] has joined #lisp 16:52:48 dacoda [~user@gate.cdc.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 16:52:51 -!- ASau [~user@95-27-175-175.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:53:18 quit 16:53:37 cpc262 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has joined #lisp 16:53:38 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:01 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:54:25 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:00 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c122-106-158-42.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:55:40 -!- cpc261 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:56:09 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:56:35 ASau [~user@95-27-175-175.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 16:58:16 -!- dacoda [~user@gate.cdc.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:58:44 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 17:00:15 dacoda [~user@gate.cdc.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 17:01:53 gor[e] [~svr@213.87.131.235] has joined #lisp 17:07:02 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.158.44] has joined #lisp 17:07:02 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.158.44] has quit [Changing host] 17:07:02 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 17:09:38 /ME Hi, I'm a newbie to lisp, and try to set up emacs with SBCL and slime. Unfortunately, I get the following error: entered: (("Error in timer" slime-attempt-connection (# nil 2) (void-function hide-entry))) 17:09:38 (condition-case data (apply fun args) (error (debug nil (list "Error in timer" fun args data)))) 17:09:38 slime-timer-call(slime-attempt-connection # nil 2) 17:09:38 apply(slime-timer-call (slime-attempt-connection # nil 2)) 17:09:41 byte-code("r\301\302H\303H\"\210)\301\207" [timer apply 5 6] 4) 17:09:46 timer-event-handler([t 20289 8769 644058 0.3 slime-timer-call (slime-attempt-connection # nil 2) nil]) 17:10:03 dacoda: don't paste here, use paste.lisp.org 17:10:18 Oh, thanks, I will do. 17:10:18 dacoda: and upgrade your emacs to solve the problem that you have 17:10:36 I have the newest. Version 24.0.93. 17:10:43 kent pitman has 2x followers than me on twitter, that means i am nearly half as successful as him, which is cool :) 17:11:00 dacoda: interesting. i've seen that problem only with older versions. 17:11:26 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-150-39.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:11:30 dacoda: there, it was a race condition and most of the time, just retrying slime worked for me 17:11:42 dacoda: not that i'd try to sell that as a "solution" 17:11:52 -!- Cristi [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:13:20 ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has joined #lisp 17:14:48 v0yager [~v0yager@71-88-201-245.dhcp.kgpt.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:16:44 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-98-39.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:10 sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:44 -!- gaidal_ [~gaidal@113.119.26.17] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:21:56 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-153-7.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:53 dacoda: please stop the /msg ing right now. thank you. 17:23:52 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:24:05 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:24:06 Sorry again. I'll compile 23.4 now from source and hopefully it will work then. 17:24:08 dacoda: too much excitment? It's ok man be patient 17:27:29 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.29.97] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:28:04 rme [~rme@50.43.133.173] has joined #lisp 17:28:12 -!- kenanb [5e36ede3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.54.237.227] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:31:49 Hm, its the same with Emacs 23.3.1. So I guess the problem is somewhere else. 17:32:02 -!- X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:33:24 slyrus [~chatzilla@209-188-117-13.taosnet.com] has joined #lisp 17:35:22 X-Scale` [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:39 ejbs [~user@d83-183-51-82.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 17:38:09 what version of slime, and what version of sbcl, and what platform? 17:38:29 -!- hagish [~hagish@p5DCBD939.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:43:31 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-153-7.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:43:32 dacoda: by default, emacs is configured to use /usr/bin/lisp, which is cmucl. You must M-x customize-variable RET inferior-lisp-program RET to use it with another CL. 17:45:10 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-155-31.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:16 -!- gor[e] [~svr@213.87.131.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:46:04 Even when I have an entry in .emacs ? 17:47:17 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@108.87.22.192] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:47:35 dacoda: doyou have a (setf inferior-lisp-program "/usr/bin/sbcl") in ~/.emacs? If so it's all right. 17:47:52 Check that /usr/bin/sbcl runs in a shell: M-x shell RET /usr/bin/sbcl RET 17:47:56 tensorpudding [~michael@99.160.220.155] has joined #lisp 17:48:01 But anyways: I have found an emacs version 23.2 on some server I have access to, and here it actually works. Really strange. But I have used an .emacs file to the bare minimum. I think I go step but step back now to my .emacs file I'm usually using, maybe there is something. 17:48:07 dacoda: how does that entry look like? (setq inferior-lisp-program "sbcl")? 17:48:42 dacoda: Check that /usr/bin/sbcl runs in a shell: M-x shell RET /usr/bin/sbcl RET 17:48:56 Yes. Only that I'm not using a relative path. 17:49:45 -!- ejbs [~user@d83-183-51-82.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:51:11 SBCL is running. It gives me sbcl --version -> SBCL 1.0.55, which is correct. I have sbcl installed locally in my home directory. 17:51:50 serichsen [~user@hmbg-5f761717.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:52 Hello! 17:54:31 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:56:02 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:58:54 theBlack1ragon [~dragon@212.71.14.175.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:32 Ok, I found the offending line in my .emacs-file. It is (setq-default outline-minor-mode t). 18:00:26 And I remember (because I am new to emacs as well) that I was playing around with various settings the last days (mostly found on the net). 18:01:09 I don't know why this line has the effect as described, but it is reproducible. 18:01:38 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@212.71.14.175.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:01:38 -!- theBlack1ragon is now known as theBlackDragon 18:02:54 -!- edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:03:26 dacoda: better configure an absolute pathname! Or else you will have to mess with exec-path. 18:09:14 Yes, thanks for the hint. Using a very small .emacs file (i.e. only configuring slime and sbcl) it works now with emacs-24.0.93 as well. 18:11:04 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@80.202.200.233] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:11:37 Just one question: I pasted my original question to paste.lisp.org. Maybe it would be a good idea to add as hint to use such a small .emacs file in case someone has the same problem. How can I do that? 18:11:57 meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 18:14:46 sashman [~sashman@dsdf-4db53302.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:20 hi there 18:15:40 dacoda: you can annotate your paste. 18:17:10 what's your paste? 18:19:16 -!- ngz [~user@69.205.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:20:26 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:22:41 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:23:23 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 18:23:43 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-1-226.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:23:47 ngz [~user@69.205.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:38 Oh, I did it again, forgot to enter the Captcha. But there should be a paste visible now. 18:27:12 I can see it. Thanks again, hopefully it won't be completely useless. 18:27:14 dacoda: you might want to report the bug to slime developers. 18:27:35 (I just don't believe you; let's see if they can replicate that bug). 18:28:53 Hm, why not. I think I will send them two .emacs versions. One which is working and one which is not. Maybe they have an idea. 18:29:18 Because outline mode has nothing to do with slime AFAIK. 18:30:33 I would think the same. But that's how it looks like. Maybe its the command setq-default. I don't know. 18:30:52 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:31:40 -!- X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 18:33:00 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.160.220.155] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:33:39 tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.169.31] has joined #lisp 18:33:55 -!- cow-orke1 is now known as cow-orker 18:36:12 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@209-188-117-13.taosnet.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:37:02 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:38:16 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 18:39:37 -!- meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:41:19 -!- bjonnh [~bjonnh@2a01:e35:8a53:8940:21e:64ff:fe84:8986] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:41:24 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:44:10 pnq [~nick@ACA2262C.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 18:45:23 -!- rme [rme@13FF0A92.B66D9153.699BA7A6.IP] has quit [Quit: rme] 18:45:23 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.133.173] has quit [Quit: rme] 18:49:22 Jovlang [~user@cm-84.209.27.113.getinternet.no] has joined #lisp 18:51:35 (flet ((f (x) (intern (concat "programm" x)))) `(common lisp the ,(f "able") ,(f "ing") language)) 18:52:44 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-152-225.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:17 Jovlang: concat is not defined. 18:53:32 Jovlang: type: /topic RET 18:54:38 (flet ((f (x) (intern (concatenate 'string "programm" x)))) `(common lisp the ,(f "able") ,(f "ing") language)) 18:55:32 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-155-31.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:55:54 hagish [~hagish@p5DCBD939.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:23 suprised it wasn't concatenate-the-string-arguments-you-give :) 18:56:56 surprised* 18:58:20 Why intern? 18:58:33 *Sgeo* is a bit of a newbie 18:58:53 to make it a symbol, consistent with the rest of the list 18:59:15 Ah 18:59:40 tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.148.207.74] has joined #lisp 18:59:49 -!- dacoda [~user@gate.cdc.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Quit: Bye.] 19:00:49 -!- hagish [~hagish@p5DCBD939.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:01:14 MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-150-177.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:53 french [~french@164.136.1.93.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:00 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:02:31 hi 19:02:35 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.169.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:03:48 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-152-225.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:04:02 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 19:06:37 alors je tombs ? 19:06:39 hi 19:07:05 decaf [~mehmet@unaffiliated/decaf] has joined #lisp 19:08:19 rme [~rme@50.43.133.173] has joined #lisp 19:08:32 ya un francais 19:08:48 je ne sais pas 19:14:31 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:14:54 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 19:21:05 -!- Jovlang [~user@cm-84.209.27.113.getinternet.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:23:16 -!- Vutral [~ss@2a01:198:35a::1] has quit [Quit: Life is too short] 19:24:39 Vutral [~ss@2a01:198:35a::1] has joined #lisp 19:27:45 rvrebane [~rvrebane@valjapaas.vkhk.ee] has joined #lisp 19:31:40 -!- cpc262 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 19:32:52 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2262C.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:33:12 qui est francais 19:33:45 je ne sais pas 19:37:38 french: some people around there are french, but the language spoken here is english. 19:39:35 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-98-39.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 19:40:56 ok thanks 19:45:22 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-185-22.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:45:28 Je suis français. 19:45:54 toi t une merde 19:46:16 french: you can discuss directly with somebody using /msg nick message as I told you yesterday, but you don't seem to understand. 19:46:38 Insulting people on irc won't help you getting any advice. 19:46:53 LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-1-226.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:02 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 19:47:47 why you not let me alone man, i have not done something bad no. 19:48:17 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:48:54 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-105-12.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 19:52:22 pldn [~dvorak@77.226.151.243] has joined #lisp 19:53:36 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.235.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:54:24 osa1 [~sinan@31.140.121.62] has joined #lisp 19:54:54 kanru` [~user@154-93.80-90.static-ip.oleane.fr] has joined #lisp 19:56:51 http://pastebin.com/R1mXTX5V 19:57:28 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 19:58:21 bjonnh [~bjonnh@2a01:e35:2420:ea0:21e:64ff:fe84:8986] has joined #lisp 20:01:19 optikalmouse [~user@bas1-toronto07-1176123605.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 20:01:28 anyone wanna explain how a :continue restart works? 20:01:44 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:03:08 I have a handler-case that's handling a condition signaled with cerror from the middle of a function. I want to continue execution of that function after I handle the condition, do I just call continue? 20:03:57 Yes. 20:04:04 optikalmouse: yeah, pretty much 20:04:43 (handler-bind ((error #'continue)) (with-simple-restart (continue "Continue") (error "Bad!"))) 20:05:06 how would I use handler-case to do that? 20:05:10 or should I use handler-bind? 20:05:10 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 20:05:30 You cannot. Handler-case unwinds the stack, so you would have to put the with-simple-restart outside of the handler-case. 20:05:56 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 20:05:57 ahhh ok 20:06:04 (with-simple-restart (continue "Continue") (handler-case (error "Bad!") (error (err) (continue err)))) 20:06:33 But then, you couold as well exit from the handler-case from the exceptional branch. 20:06:48 (handler-case (error "Bad!") (error () nil)) does the same. 20:08:11 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:08:17 -!- snorble_ [~snorble@c193-14-18-68.cust.tele2.se] has left #lisp 20:09:22 that's pretty awesome, thanks :D 20:11:19 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 20:12:51 mon_key` [~user@69.64.7.202] has joined #lisp 20:16:36 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:17:08 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 20:19:29 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-255-14.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:27 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-232-84.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:21:18 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-150-177.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:21:49 hi 20:21:54 pjb: hi 20:22:13 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:22:21 s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-239-110.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:47 Hi! 20:23:22 how are you ? 20:23:43 Fine, thanks. 20:23:59 good 20:24:20 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 20:24:26 -!- serichsen [~user@hmbg-5f761717.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Good night!] 20:24:31 -!- kanru` [~user@154-93.80-90.static-ip.oleane.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:24:53 :) I'm programming a stellaris with a ssl web server on it... And using a Lisp program to build the server pages :) 20:25:17 Great. 20:26:16 actually I've to program it :) a bit of DSL then! :) 20:26:52 html files to c char vectors that will fill a flash rom 20:27:03 pjb: what about raspberry pi? 20:27:25 -!- ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:27:57 Still nothing available in the shop. 20:29:24 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-105-12.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:30:56 ok 20:31:01 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@31.24.92.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:33:15 RomyRomy [~stickycak@cpe-69-203-115-155.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:33:22 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:34:32 -!- Kvaks [~kvaks@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:34:35 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:35:15 Kvaks [~kvaks@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:35:54 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-105-12.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 20:36:21 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-146.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:36:56 tomek|mim [~tomek@178-36-151-248.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #lisp 20:37:05 -!- tomek|mim [~tomek@178-36-151-248.adsl.inetia.pl] has left #lisp 20:37:12 davlap [~davlap@c-24-147-211-14.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:04 tomek|mim [~tomek@178-36-151-248.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #lisp 20:38:07 -!- tomek|mim [~tomek@178-36-151-248.adsl.inetia.pl] has left #lisp 20:41:15 Oof, sorry about disappearing last time, Lisp room :) Anyone Lispers here well-versed in both Ruby and Scheme? 20:42:05 I'm a Rubyist who fell in love with Scheme shortly after she discovered Ruby (that is my first programming language) 20:42:24 -!- pldn [~dvorak@77.226.151.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:42:45 pldn [~dvorak@77.226.151.243] has joined #lisp 20:42:56 RomyRomy: schemers hang on #scheme. 20:43:09 Here we tend to specialize on Common Lisp. 20:44:34 -!- osa1 [~sinan@31.140.121.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:45:06 dnjaramba_ [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 20:45:12 Great! I've joined the Scheme room. Thanks! 20:45:19 Well maybe you can answer a Common Lisp question. 20:45:29 I'm fairly new to Scheme just a first few chapters in SICP. 20:45:48 The other day I discovered 'Paradigms of Artificla Intelligence in Common Lisp' by Peter Norvig and I became absolutely enthralled. 20:46:07 That's not a question 20:46:10 My concern was because i only know some Scheme, I wouldn't be able to follow, and even if I were to follow it and learn some Common Lisp, would it be too difficult to port it to Scheme? 20:46:16 lol, hold your horses 20:46:26 The book will teach you Common Lisp 20:46:33 If you know nothing of Scheme you will learn it faster 20:46:39 If you know some scheme it will help to forget it 20:47:18 Best to treat the languages as independent in many important ways 20:47:54 Ah. Thanks. 20:48:10 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:48:24 The thing that has always really held me back on learning a Lisp is indecision over Common Lisp vs Scheme vs something else 20:48:40 I have to admit, I'm somewhat scared of unhygienic macros. 20:48:53 But like the thought of a more dynamic environment 20:49:21 Actually, the environment is I think the main thing drawing me to CL 20:49:29 (over, say, Racket) 20:49:34 -!- rvrebane [~rvrebane@valjapaas.vkhk.ee] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:50:20 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 20:50:49 If only there were fewer choices 20:51:32 Sgeo It held me back from pursuing Lisp, also. but vamped up my desire to learn Emacs, although I am a Vim girl or at least for now. 20:52:07 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:52:21 I _think_ I can survive CL being a Lisp-2 20:53:08 (over, say, Racket) ==> Comma not inside a backquote. 20:53:41 -!- dnjaramba_ [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:55:15 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 20:56:46 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 20:59:21 slyrus [~chatzilla@209-188-117-24.taosnet.com] has joined #lisp 21:01:03 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:02:46 -!- Arrdem [~reid@resnet-46-120.dorm.utexas.edu] has left #lisp 21:03:22 RomyRomy: well, emacs uses a third lisp, emacs lisp (elisp). 21:03:41 RomyRomy: in the end, you will have to know all three dialects, CL, elisp and a little scheme. 21:03:57 RomyRomy: which you will use will depend on what you want to do. 21:03:58 *Sgeo* has no desire to learn elisp 21:04:01 plus Clojure 21:04:21 RomyRomy: no. If you need lisp on jvm, use abcl. 21:04:29 Sgeo: elisp is quite close to Common Lisp, (apart where it is not). 21:04:43 here in New York I am contributing to the New York Lisp website, which is going to be done in a lot of Clojure. So far I am contributing only a design nd front-end, but I requested the lead programmer to explain to me a little about what he is doing to integrate my design 21:04:58 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-239-110.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:04:59 the Common Lisp I would explore only b/c I became fascinated by Peter Norvig's artificial intelligence book 21:05:14 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 21:05:20 s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-239-110.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:14 IMHO emacs is pretty much required 21:06:51 Clojure is not a Lisp <- capital L 21:06:51 its a harsh requirement, but trying to get into lisp without emacs/slime, I would compare a person trying to get into graphics and web design by using notepad, and not learning photoshop or whatever ppl use for html right now 21:07:17 or trying to get into java without a good environment, or without using eclipse 21:07:33 I haven't tried the alternatives to emacs, but sometimes people who try not to use it make somewhat startling complaints 21:07:45 it just as well can turn a an eager person off from the a platform.. So get familiar with Emacs and emacs lisp first, then get into CL 21:08:04 -!- optikalmouse [~user@bas1-toronto07-1176123605.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:08:13 (disclaimer above is big IMHO, you may likely get different advice elsewehere) 21:08:22 maxm-: I disagree. emacs lisp is a dead-end black hole. 21:08:45 mon_key`: you need it to customize your emacs, as plain emacs is kind of meh 21:09:01 and you can learn basics of list manipulation with emacs just fine 21:09:28 Clearly, we need to embed Scheme into emacs lisp 21:09:34 So we can just write stuff in Scheme 21:09:43 While Emacs may be "required" to use Common Lisp, customization of your Emacs is not. 21:10:13 Sgeo: we already have emacs-cl which is a CL implementation running on emacs. And there's Pseudo which is a r4rs scheme implementation running on CL. Integrate them both andyou have scheme in emacs. 21:10:19 a person who goes from emacs? -> emacs -> elisp -> slime/cl, would eventually became CL expert much faster then a person who does from emacs? directly to emacs -> slime/cl 21:10:33 I agree with mon_key, you can make the most important customizations to emacs by following directions without knowing emacs lisp 21:10:57 oh no, don't even try to confuse someone with scheme, that way leads to madness and ivory towers 21:11:10 -!- Vutral [~ss@2a01:198:35a::1] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:11:35 maxm-: elisp created bad habbits for this Lisper. I wish i didn't have to unlearn them. 21:12:17 Yes, it's better to start with CL. 21:12:26 Being a CL programmer, you can write perfectly good elisp code. 21:12:32 well maybe I'm a bit biased because I find working in plain emacs impossible and have pretty extreme customizations.. Guess if you work in plain emacs from the start you eventually get used to it, I mean rms does it somehow 21:12:51 maxm-: you're exagerating, Plain emacs, as in emacs -Q, is quite usable. 21:12:52 maxm-: elisp's reliance regular expressions come immediately to mind as NTRT 21:13:09 *maxm-* uses emacs as a persistent vi with elisp :-) 21:13:11 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:13:56 ntrt? 21:14:06 Not The Right Thing. 21:14:50 Vutral [~ss@2a01:198:35a::1] has joined #lisp 21:15:03 its the combination of string quoting requirements and choosing backlashed parentesis.. So \\(blah\\|crap\\) is a bit ugly yea 21:15:35 -!- pldn [~dvorak@77.226.151.243] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:15:40 elisp encourages reliance on buffers as the default goto container for "texty" data doesn't jibe well with the richness of CL for doing similarly. 21:15:41 maxm-: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/rx 21:16:03 on the other hand lots of ppl use regexp interactively, you since its programmer's editor, similar to vi, when interactively replacing a lot of strings involving parenthesis I can see why the choice was made 21:16:44 kenanb [5e36ede3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.54.237.227] has joined #lisp 21:16:45 and there's a tool to produce properly quoted regexp strings interactively. 21:16:51 mon_key`: well doh, its an editor, of course it will have editor specific extensions. I have no problems with buffers or buffer local vars 21:17:12 its natural extension, and can be done in editor written in CL by using progv and macros 21:17:26 pjb: the point was that regexps are a hammer. 21:17:34 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:17:43 mon_key`: true. But you still don't haev to write them as strings. rx is nice. 21:18:23 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 21:18:33 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584440.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:18:34 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@209-188-117-24.taosnet.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:20:09 maxm-: lots of non-editor related stuff elisp stuffs into buffers/text-props whereas CL would put in a right proper class/structure with slots. The latter is often cleaner wrt programming in a Lisp. 21:20:23 hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584440.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:21:20 mon_key`: well can't argue with success.. Compare emacs and the whats the clim version called 21:22:41 maxm-: The point is that when learning lisp via elisp one is often encouraged to treat data as strings in a buffer which is kinda C oriented and antithetical to treating code-as-data. 21:23:08 if there was CL based editor with all the features of emacs, I would switch it a heartbeat, and yes I like CLOS better then text properties / buffers stuff, but its either emacs or gtfo at this point. (or spend 10 years writing your own emacs in CL) 21:24:12 mon_key`: well in CL to work with text you'll be using one of the libraries anyway (ie some xml library, or cl-ppcre, or such), so I would say its comprable 21:25:01 maxm-: I _love_ Emacs. I just wish I hadn't conflated elisp with CL early on and don't encourage others to do so. 21:26:09 anyway, ok I see your point 21:26:49 so in closing as a consensus advice to new guy trying to learn lisp, he should get Emacs/Slime and go from there, or use one of pre-build distribution that bundles entire thing 21:29:12 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:29:17 maxm-: advice is he should accept that using/learning Emacs is an unavoidable consequence of learning CL and that many contemporary CL programmers rely on Slime and can't imagine developing without it. 21:29:54 Is LispBox considered good/acceptable? 21:29:58 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 21:29:59 It's old. 21:30:23 old and unmaintained. quicklisp covers most of the ground a lot better, imo 21:30:29 Sgeo: just get emacs, paredit and a CL implementation and quicklisp, and use quicklisp to get slime and CL libraries. 21:30:53 Sgeo: what pjb said. Then come back to #lisp if/when you hit snags. 21:31:01 not using paredit doesn't matter 21:31:31 o.O I forgot we're in 2012 and not 2011 21:31:43 ? 21:31:47 "Last updated: February 6, 2011" thought that meant it was updated earlier this month 21:32:05 When I downloaded it yesterday 21:32:11 paredit helps more than slime IMO. 21:32:17 pjb: why don't use plan9 editor? 21:32:23 Basically there had been never a better time to learn lisp, other then AI spring/lisp machines era 21:32:27 its on a revival :-) 21:32:31 Because we don't run Hurd? 21:32:43 pjb: really? I've never used it... 21:32:47 Hurd! 21:33:07 Posterdati: lifting pianos, you? 21:33:29 no 21:33:33 :-) 21:33:37 bell laboratories lifter 21:34:26 if you fail, it means you at least tried.. Guile and hurd flopped, so what.. gcc, emacs, entire gnu toolchain, gnu make, gdb, etc etc etc all make up for it 21:36:25 Arrdem [~reid@wireless-128-62-55-21.public.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 21:36:45 Siphonblast [~Siphonbla@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:40 dnjaramba_ [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 21:37:41 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:37:48 I'm having trouble defining a basic operation, to increment like in java, doing ++i + ++i. 21:38:39 Siphonblast: you need a macro to that. And you need to use get-setf-expansion. 21:38:50 Siphonblast: There's already INCF and DECF. 21:39:03 (let ((i 0)) (+ (incf i) (incf i))) 21:39:07 (let ((i 0)) (+ (incf i) (incf i))) => 3 21:39:44 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.125.53] has joined #lisp 21:40:45 maxm-: for awhile i succumbed to FUD and believed that as a Lisper i was loosing out b/c open-source CL doesn't really do sexy C++ style desktop GUI junk. lately I've been thinking that this "loss" is a big win b/c the desktop GUI is dead and CL is much better poised for dishing up/manipulating the server-side stuff used in the age of the iPhone -- revival indeed. 21:41:08 Siphonblast: you could define a post-incf. Or just write: 21:41:13 (let ((i 0)) (+ (prog1 i (incf i)) (prog1 (incf i)))) => Error: (error Synchronous Lisp Evaluation aborted) 21:42:27 => 1 21:42:35 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@212.71.14.175.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:42:36 -!- dnjaramba_ [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:43:01 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c295b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:43:13 theBlackDragon [~dragon@212.71.14.175.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:44 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:46 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 21:45:24 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-123-141.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:32 DataLinkDroid [~David@120.159.249.204] has joined #lisp 21:46:00 lnostdal_ [~Lars@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:17 -!- lnostdal_ [~Lars@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:46:35 -!- Arrdem [~reid@wireless-128-62-55-21.public.utexas.edu] has left #lisp 21:48:07 Arrdem [~reid@wireless-128-62-55-21.public.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 21:48:15 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@c83-248-111-48.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 21:48:52 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-255-14.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:49:36 hagish [~hagish@p5DCBD939.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:58 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:51:02 hi 21:54:09 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:54:36 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 21:55:04 -!- Arrdem [~reid@wireless-128-62-55-21.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:55:38 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 21:55:58 -!- sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:56:04 MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-123-141.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:01 pnq [~nick@AC812119.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 21:57:12 pjb the best programmeur in the world 21:57:27 Arrdem [~reid@wireless-128-62-55-21.public.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 21:59:15 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-123-141.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:59:16 thanks and bye 21:59:24 -!- Arrdem [~reid@wireless-128-62-55-21.public.utexas.edu] has left #lisp 22:00:25 -!- french [~french@164.136.1.93.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: IRC webchat at http://irc2go.com/] 22:01:46 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:01:48 b4 [~hraban@sd4406b9e.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #lisp 22:02:18 hi, what is the name of the function that returns a function (taking no args) retruning its (the first) argument 22:02:27 (defun .... (x) (lambda () x)) 22:02:31 constantly 22:02:34 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 22:02:34 ah thanks 22:02:52 forgot about that one, not easy to google 22:03:38 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584440.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:06:18 Are there libraries to provide hygienic macros to CL? 22:07:05 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:07:43 sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:55 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 22:14:06 Sgeo: http://www.jucs.org/doi?doi=10.3217/jucs-016-02-0271 related 22:15:23 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 22:15:34 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:18:48 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:19:32 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 22:20:09 Sgeo: why are you worried about clean macros? 22:21:00 mon_key, because remembering to use gensym for stuff and taking other precautions reminds me of manual memory management. A lot of tedium and risk of bugs for questionable benefit. 22:21:27 saste [~saste___@dynamic-adsl-78-15-174-230.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 22:22:01 how am i supposed to create a deep copy of an hash-table? 22:22:04 Sgeo: oh cmon, is (with-unique-names (foo bar baz) ...) so hard 22:22:25 Sgeo: there is scheme 22:22:35 saste: what do you mean by "deep copy"? 22:22:45 or in other words, why there isn't a standard function for that (but project alexandria has copy-hash-table)? 22:22:50 H4ns: yes 22:23:04 Sgeo: CL is a lisp 2 22:23:06 *maxm-* refused to learn about scheme so called macros, after noticing it took 2 pages to introduce them, vs 2 sentences it takes to explain backquoted macro syntax 22:23:28 Sgeo: no language is free of warts; just pick the one that bothers you the least. 22:23:57 Sgeo: per the pdf sykopomp linked you: "Macro hygiene has been considered a less important problem in the Common Lispcommunity mostly due to the separation of function and variable namespaces in 22:23:57 Common Lisp, which avoids most of the practically occurring capture problems in 22:23:57 macros. See [Gabriel and Pitman 88] for a detailed discussion." 22:23:58 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.98.39] has joined #lisp 22:24:40 My browser is acting up 22:25:29 Sgeo: hence my rudely pasting in the salient quote from that paper (: 22:25:40 in practice, CL macro system is almost perfectly elegant, only problem is the mental effort it takes to do double/triple backquote stuff, which is easily solved by deconstructing into smaller flet/labels or separate functnios 22:26:10 the pull of dicking-around is strong, resist it 22:26:27 groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has joined #lisp 22:27:07 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 22:28:53 H4ns: i mean an hash-table containing the same keys and values, but not referencing the same keys and values of the original hashtable, so that i can modificate the copy without changing the original hashtable 22:29:24 saste: practical 2 minute solution.. (require :cl-store) 22:29:24 saste: as common lisp has no general deep copying support, there is no general deep copying of hash tables either. 22:29:29 H4ns: i could easily create a deep copy with a loop, but why there is not such facility in the language? 22:29:31 Is there ever a time where it's better to use flet over labels? 22:29:36 saste: then serialize and unserialise it 22:29:42 saste: because there is no deep copying in common lisp. 22:30:02 will handle clos objects/structures, circular whateveress inside 22:30:16 Sgeo: sure. if you need to recursively call the local function or if the functions in one local function declaration need to call each other. 22:30:34 -!- sigi-ntb [~sigi@host-85-27-110-224.brutele.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:30:43 H4ns, isn't that a use case for labels? 22:30:57 Sgeo: oops, sorry. 22:31:12 Sgeo: but the other way round is true as well 22:31:25 dnjaramba_ [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 22:31:35 Sgeo: if the functions don't call each other or themselves, use flet to let the reader of the code know 22:31:36 Arrdem [~reid@wireless-128-62-55-21.public.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 22:31:37 Sgeo there are with-gensyms and only-once macros in alexandria library that generate gensyms for you 22:31:51 saste: why there is no deep copy in CL http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/a692eca39127c5a0/e3a84417a0d0bd11 22:31:53 makes it less cumbersome 22:31:53 H4ns: no built-in deep copy support, but cl-store as a practical matter works right of the box very nicely as generic serializer.. 22:32:14 H4ns: only thing it has problems with is foreign pointers and such, and/or custom metaclass stuff 22:32:22 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:32:25 once-only even 22:32:42 maxm-: i did never say that one can't write whatever in common lisp. 22:33:17 ok thank you all, i'll wrap my head around that 22:33:24 well when someone asks "how do I accomplish X", I just give them the practical answer.. That what I would like ppl respond to me with, when I ask stuff :-) 22:33:46 maxm-: he did ask something different, but anyway. 22:34:15 vervic [~vervic@vie-188-118-255-015.dsl.sil.at] has joined #lisp 22:34:22 ikarus_ [~ikarus_@93-138-105-12.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 22:34:28 saste: make sure to look at this too: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html 22:34:48 did not mean it as a critisism.. just hate seeing ppl struggle/dick-around with stuff that can be accomplished in 2 minutes with existing tools 22:35:52 There's a thing for Smalltalk, FUEL I think, that automatically serializes almost anything. 22:36:47 Although hmm, it can have issues when comes across references to global stuff, I think. Assumes that the global stuff exists in the place where it's being deserialized. 22:37:00 -!- drwho [~drwho@216-122-174-206.gci.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:37:09 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:37:21 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-178-2.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:37:27 Someone demoed serializing an open debugger 22:38:09 -!- dnjaramba_ [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:38:20 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 22:39:08 drwho [~drwho@216-122-174-206.gci.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:08 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-16.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:41:08 my point was, if you have serialization framework that can serilize/restore an object, the "least effort" deep copy comes for free as (unserialize (serialize obj)) 22:41:27 and for cl such universal serialization framework exists, called cl-store 22:42:29 (setf (symbol-function 'deep-copy) (alexandria:compose #'unserialize #'serialize)) 22:42:34 I guess that's not that difficult 22:43:18 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-178-2.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:44:07 did someone have luck in getting commonqt working on windows? 22:44:30 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-178-2.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:44:55 I'm getting Unable to load foreign library (LIBRARY-971). Error opening shared object "commonqt.dll": 22:45:16 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.104] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 22:47:21 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:47:57 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-116-46.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:04 maxm-: "why no deep-copy of " is an obvious question that most Lispers will eventually ask. knowing when something is a common question, and why, may help to realize when one shouldn't bother thinking too hard and just use somebody elses canned solution (or not). 22:48:06 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 22:48:57 For the setf symbol-function thing, would it make sense to define my own macro, or did someone do it for me? 22:49:05 And am I overthinking this? 22:49:13 I'm scared of reinventing wheels 22:49:28 (defun (setf f) (new-value arguments) ) 22:49:36 (setf (f arguments) new-value) 22:50:06 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-178-2.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:50:13 -!- v0yager [~v0yager@71-88-201-245.dhcp.kgpt.tn.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:50:42 That's not at all what I meant 22:50:58 I meant, as in assigning a function name to a function object) 22:51:05 Not making setf work with something 22:51:15 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-123-141.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:51:21 How do you propose to assign names to function objects? 22:51:23 Sgeo: the problem with aliasing is what happens when the aliased function gets redefined. 22:51:31 Function objects are immutable atoms! 22:51:51 You could fbind function objects to function names. It's called DEFUN. 22:52:10 Or (setf (symbol-function 'name) (lambda )), but defun is more featureful. 22:52:35 -!- Vutral [~ss@2a01:198:35a::1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:52:38 But I can't use compose with defun the way I did with setf symbol-function, can I? 22:52:50 what compose? 22:52:58 alexandria:compose 22:53:04 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:53:21 Why don't you use instead COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.CESARUM.UTILITY:COMPOSE ? 22:53:52 (setf (symbol-funtion 'deep-copy) (compose unserialize serialize)) 22:54:03 with (import 'COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.CESARUM.UTILITY:COMPOSE). 22:54:14 Vutral [~ss@2a01:198:35a::1] has joined #lisp 22:54:34 Sgeo: Likely you are confused, doing it wrong, or both. What are you trying to do? 22:54:56 mon_key, a shortcut for the setf symbol-function part of what pjb did 22:54:59 Sgeo: i usually do (defun (setf accessor) (newvalue obj) ... do whataver to put newvalue into obj) 22:55:09 slyrus [~chatzilla@209-188-122-100.taosnet.com] has joined #lisp 22:55:21 Well, you can write: (setf (fdefinition 'deep-copy) (compose unserialize serialize)) it's shorter. 22:55:22 -!- hagish [~hagish@p5DCBD939.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:55:44 -!- vervic [~vervic@vie-188-118-255-015.dsl.sil.at] has left #lisp 22:55:55 you can screw around with defsetf if it needs to be high performance, but default one will call your (setf function-name), when you do (setf (accessor obj) whatever), works well enough for me 22:57:55 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.125.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:58:11 Sgeo: about compose and defun, compose is useful when you need to pass a callable function somewhere.. inisde defun, doing (compose #'foo1 #'foo2) rather then (foo1 (foo2)) is dicking around.. Yes you can write all your code that way, but why? If you really want to do it, you do (apply (compose ...) 22:59:04 -!- gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:59:05 I like healthy doses of pointfree 22:59:06 :/ 22:59:32 maxm-: well, with the right toolbox, you can write all your functions like that. See Backus' paper. 23:01:09 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-402221.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:01:17 pjb: as I said, ivorytowerism :-) "Good news everyone!, I had invented a way of writing code so that is way longer then nessesary, and is also more difficult to understand!" "Isn't science great?!" 23:01:41 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 23:01:45 maxm-: actually it's shorter and easier to understand. It's purely functional programming. 23:01:56 You write functions without any explicit variable. 23:02:03 *Sgeo* finds that in Haskell, it tends to be shorter and easy to understand (at least, as long as not taken to extremes) 23:02:05 maxm-: some may find it easier to understand 23:02:08 well, to each their own.. /me is of the "right tool for the job" philosophy 23:02:49 @pl \a -> \b -> \c -> c b a b 23:02:49 join . (flip .) . flip (flip . flip id) 23:02:50 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.106.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:03:05 As soon as compose sections start coming into play, it's time to run 23:03:15 As far as I'm concerned 23:04:11 flip..flipflip.flip 23:06:31 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:07:54 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 23:08:22 gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has joined #lisp 23:09:19 -!- borkman` is now known as borkman 23:09:59 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:11:07 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:11:28 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 23:12:27 How does Common Lisp deal with unicode? 23:12:42 Does it do the right thing, or are there libraries to make it do the right thing, or what? 23:13:00 Both. 23:13:11 It does the right thing, and there are libraries. 23:14:46 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:15:00 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 23:15:37 i was a bit annoyed when I learned unicode isn't part of standard, but it just worked transparently for me (in ccl and sbcl at least). you can even use unicode in function and macro names 23:17:01 That's one advantage of not being in a standard: implementations are free to do the right thing. 23:17:41 Sgeo, by your question on Unicode, are you interested in Common Lisp (the ANSI standard) or a particular implemenation? 23:17:46 Common Lisp + Unicode? No problem. PHP, eat your hear out... 23:18:20 Well, I guess I have my answer for the standard, and am mostly interested in CCL since apparently it works smoothly on Linux and Windows 23:18:39 (defmacro  ((&rest args) &body body) `(lambda ,args ,@body)) 23:18:42 :P 23:18:55 Yes, I use ccl on windows (lightly) with no problems, including threading. 23:19:33 I know there's a library to provide STM stuff, but what of things like Haskell's MVars and Chans? 23:19:34 i use sbcl on linux 23:19:38 Is there a library for those too? 23:20:40 Sgeo: what are you wanting to use CL to accomplish? 23:20:40 MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-148-14.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:16 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:23:10 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-116-46.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:23:15 Threadsafe wrapping around a nonthreadsafe C API 23:25:50 clisp works even more smoothly across plateforms. 23:26:07 But almost all the CL implementations work smoothly across plateforms. 23:26:50 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 23:27:08 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-239-110.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:27:34 s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-239-110.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:13 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:32:12 ikarus_: wow now thats cool, I was looking for a replacement char for #L reader macro, you just gave me an idea :-) 23:32:44 too bad that will prevent editing that code on older xterms 23:33:21 what does your #L reader macro do? 23:34:23 -!- sashman [~sashman@dsdf-4db53302.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: sashman] 23:34:41 vairav [~vairav@c-98-207-170-37.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:34:59 #L(+ !1 !2) as a shorthand for (lambda (x y) (+ x y)) 23:35:43 expands into N-args lambda where N is highest ! arg used 23:35:52 Write a reader macro so that you can write:  x y . (+ x y) 23:35:55 -!- jakky [jokk@motherfucking.ddosking.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:36:00 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:36:13 maxm ah interesting 23:37:09 ikarus_: iterate used to expose it, not any longer, but its easy enough to extract it from iterate, or find implementation by googling sharp-l reader macro 23:37:27 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-157-8.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:29 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 23:37:52 jakky [jokk@motherfucking.ddosking.org] has joined #lisp 23:39:18 -!- Arrdem [~reid@wireless-128-62-55-21.public.utexas.edu] has left #lisp 23:39:56 -!- ngz [~user@69.205.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:40:44 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-148-14.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:43:43 -!- groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:44:39 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:44:44 -!- saste [~saste___@dynamic-adsl-78-15-174-230.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:45:57 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:46:10 -!- jakky [jokk@motherfucking.ddosking.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:47:49 Why does defpackage give a warning "... also exports the following symbols"? http://paste.lisp.org/+2QNS 23:48:55 It says "See also: The ANSI Standard, Macro DEFPACKAGE" but I'm not sure what it's referring to on that page. 23:49:00 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 23:50:17 -!- davlap [~davlap@c-24-147-211-14.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 23:56:01 groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has joined #lisp 23:56:38 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:57:00 jakky [jokk@motherfucking.ddosking.org] has joined #lisp 23:57:19 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:57:51 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 23:58:54 Liam: it happens when you used to export a symbol, but removed it from (:export list), you need to (unexport 'it) from repl, or unintern it 23:59:09 I think it's awesome how easy it is to create things like #L, not so awesome how that leads to a million different slightly differing styles for things like that