00:00:03 But there's an awful lot of stuff that rather needs to be standard that isn't. Networking, for one. 00:00:17 THat's what the de facto standards are for 00:00:18 bundling was what i meant by integrated 00:00:22 And it's covered. 00:00:49 I think that's kind of the community's job to curate those kinds of things 00:00:57 sbryant: the defacto standards aren't explicited. if they'd be grouped in versions, then i'd think it would make sense. 00:01:07 sbryant: Sure. But Common Lisp was also a de facto standard before the ANSI document came along. 00:01:09 Odin-: they already put pathnames into the standard, and see what turned out of that 00:01:16 but things like networking & threading require support from the lisp environments themselvles; they can't just be done in 'user-space' code 00:01:49 stassats: Yeah. Everyone converged on more-or-less Unix-like filesystems, and the flexibility stopped being needed. Dreadful. 00:01:55 and where the various implementations differ, the compatibility libraries either don't expose the behavior or say "it varies" 00:02:06 nobody uses anymore systems for which lisp pathnames were designed, and now they're almost useless for anything short of basic tasks 00:02:06 madnificent: I agree. 00:02:09 the problem is that networking and other stuff can change ridiculously fast 00:02:24 compared to what we like about language stability in Lisp 00:02:57 Odin-: the problem with pathnames is not in flexibility, but in inflexibility 00:03:15 -!- momo_ [~momo@218.79.241.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:03:27 can i delete a directory? can i rename a file with an extension to a file without an extension? no 00:03:27 p_l: The sockets interfaces have changed such an awful lot, haven't they? 00:03:33 -!- JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:03:40 p_l: not writing down what should be expected, will not make the changes and following incompatibilities go away. but it probably doesn't belong in the standard indeed. 00:04:40 Odin-: if they had standardized that in 1994? We would have standard talking about TP4 and NSAP addresses, iirc 00:04:43 surely most of these suggestions are for things that can easily, and therefore theoretically portably, implemented in the language specify within the standard spec 00:05:03 Odin-: at that time, BSD sockets were a 'legacy' interface, iirc 00:05:06 no need for there inclusion within the language spec 00:05:10 their* 00:05:22 p_l: Depends on who was doing the standardisation. 00:05:41 p_l: I mean, if it would've been left to traditional standards organisations, we wouldn't _have_ an internet. 00:05:43 Odin-: BSD sockets were Unix-centric, and Unix standards put them as legacy 00:05:49 [SLB] [~balthasar@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 00:06:16 I suppose one might consider introducing a standard library 00:06:49 all that needs to happen is for pressure to be put on the vendors to support a single popular standard 00:07:03 also, OSI stack wasn't really bad - it just lost in most areas to arguably simpler TCP/IP (but not in everything - the end result is actually a mix, sort of, and OSI-derived networks started dying off only last decade) 00:07:07 doesn't have to be ANSI ro wahtever 00:07:09 Phoodus: and that standard is called common lisp 00:07:11 or whatever 00:07:25 madnificent: and that doesn't include threading, gfx, networking, sound, etc 00:07:32 so other standards need to exist 00:07:40 what language does? 00:07:42 Users of Common Lisp are too widely dispersed for that to happen now, I believe. 00:07:48 gfx and sound, at least 00:07:49 Java doesn, for one 00:08:01 C doesn't 00:08:05 let's not take lessons from Java, please 00:08:07 and that seems to work just fine 00:08:12 many of the dynamic languages try to integrate full system features into their stdlibs 00:08:21 (for varying levels of 'just fine') 00:08:28 madnificent: Emphasis on "seems". GCCisms and other fun crap. 00:08:31 Phoodus: java does not. swing is deprecated. there is no replacement. 00:08:32 and C has the same issues with trying to get libraries to talk to the rest of the system 00:08:41 oGMo: ah, I did not know that 00:08:59 so they want Java to be just a headless server in practice? 00:09:02 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-117-44.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:05 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:09:10 GUIs aren't standard anywhere by now, I think. 00:09:17 oGMo: I think mainly because they started to lose ground in desktop. Or wanted JavaFX to replace it ;) 00:09:23 Here's an idea toward glorious defacto standardization: get the (few, proud) implementations with sane MOPs to export them from a common package name (perhaps "MOP"), toward the laudable goal of obsoleting closer-mop. 00:09:24 Phoodus: no, they'll have extensions which do work. just like we have bindings in lisp 00:09:24 "networking ... requires support from the lisp environments themselves" ? 00:09:28 I beg to differ :) 00:09:32 i have yet to hear an answer as to what problem would actually be solved by introducing a "standard update" or any of these other highly questionable modifications to CL 00:09:41 incf hefner 00:10:08 fe[nl]ix: well, if you rely on the environment exposing FFI 00:10:16 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:19 then you still have to code that specific to the particular implementation 00:10:42 Munksgaard- [~Munksgaar@UV-DORM2-19-172.resnet.aug.edu] has joined #lisp 00:11:10 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:11:11 p_l: probably, but everything is web bs now anyway 00:11:53 -!- maximus_ [~maximus@63-226-215-114.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:11:57 oGMo: take bordeaux-threads; it does not specify whether condition-notify wakes one thread or many 00:12:01 oGMo: they update could at least fix PROG2 00:12:10 if it were specified, then the implementations would support both cases being addressed individually 00:12:26 Phoodus: what problem did you encounter in your code that you were unable to solve because of this? 00:12:36 but because it's on the tail-end of what implementations do, when the implementations differ then all's the compat libs do is shrug and say "Well, something'll happen underneath" 00:13:03 oGMo: the problem of not having usable condition-notify for multiple locks, requiring a rewrite 00:13:20 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:24 Phoodus: so you didn't actually _have_ a problem? =P 00:13:24 and of course "can you solve the problem" is a retarded question, as anything can be worked around if you throw enough crap at it 00:13:55 not really, i implemented something that didn't have a problem with this a few days ago using ChanL 00:14:03 I believe for that case, we had to do #+sbcl, so the compatibility does not exist 00:14:35 the problem is that compatibility layers cannot create standards without first presenting the standards to the implementations for _them_ to follow 00:15:07 now, they don't have to be ANSI or related to CLHS 00:15:08 much like you can't implement a reliable protocol on top of an unreliable one 00:15:35 you know, I'm not feeding the troll 00:15:37 momo_ [~momo@218.79.241.67] has joined #lisp 00:15:39 *Phoodus* returns to work 00:16:08 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.49] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:16:35 -!- Munksgaard- [~Munksgaar@UV-DORM2-19-172.resnet.aug.edu] has quit 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01:00:51 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:24 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:03:43 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:04:38 -!- Sebboh [~hobbes@ip24-252-13-179.om.om.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:05:07 Ansik [~user@117.33.103.234] has joined #lisp 01:05:58 Arrdem [~reid@wireless-128-62-49-137.public.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 01:07:06 kai_, hi :-) i'm yesterday's me2 ..was about to close the pastebin tab, after keeping it for the whole day, and saw your paste. 13 mins before I would have lost it :-) ..anyways, going to sleep now. see it tomorrow. bye 01:07:50 waterpie: good night :-) 01:10:41 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.235] has quit [Quit: #WeeChat #Mises #emacs] 01:11:05 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:11:24 -!- Arrdem [~reid@wireless-128-62-49-137.public.utexas.edu] has 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known as Xach 01:17:38 -!- saint_cypher [~rjspotter@208.178.63.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:18:28 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 01:19:16 -!- Ralith [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:20:08 -!- Munksgaard- [~Munksgaar@UV-DORM2-19-172.resnet.aug.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:21:48 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:23:46 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:25:33 _schulte1 [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:46 xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has joined #lisp 01:28:04 bew [~bew@spruce-4.stoweaccess.com] has joined #lisp 01:28:18 -!- bew [~bew@spruce-4.stoweaccess.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:34:18 It was straightforward with cl-json. 01:35:41 obyrith [~Dylan@pool-72-78-96-37.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 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[~Buglouse@176.31.24.235] has joined #lisp 02:31:59 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:34 bummer, closure-html throws out elements i need, and cxml doesn't like   02:34:55 -!- skalawag is now known as wag 02:35:04 -!- wag is now known as skalawag 02:35:23 -!- skalawag is now known as a750mhzslinky 02:35:30 -!- a750mhzslinky is now known as skalawag 02:36:28 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.235] has quit [Quit: #WeeChat #Mises #emacs] 02:36:46 -!- skalawag is now known as a750mhzslinky 02:36:52 -!- a750mhzslinky is now known as skalawag 02:39:19 Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.235] has joined #lisp 02:40:45 and neither documentation nor the code are particularly enlightening 02:41:51 cl-ppcre, here i come 02:42:27 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.235] has quit [Client Quit] 02:42:59 Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.235] has joined #lisp 02:44:14 p_l: I owe you an apology, I was completely wrong about the iolib multiplexer problem. 02:44:23 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.235] has quit [Client Quit] 02:44:50 sbryant: hmm? 02:44:54 Ralith finally got it through my thick skull. 02:45:06 no real need for apology :) 02:45:17 care to enlighten me on the final result, then? 02:45:18 -!- momo_ [~momo@218.79.242.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:45:35 scrapping html is hard, sigh 02:45:35 *p_l* is still working on that big 0MQ-dependant code, you know ;) 02:45:36 I'm not draining the socket. ZMQ sockets are edge triggered. 02:45:57 So you have to drain the sockets of events before another read event will be fired. 02:46:00 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 02:46:03 Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483AB7F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:04 heh. 02:46:16 right, I remember something about edge-triggering 02:46:24 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:46:31 clarke2 [~clarke4@109.78.81.170] has joined #lisp 02:46:35 personally, I'm keeping away from implementing my own zmq_poll ;) 02:47:07 Well the zmq_poll was the right approach in the end anyway 02:47:15 -!- clarke2 [~clarke4@109.78.81.170] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:47:56 A friend implemented it because he didn't think the poll would be backed up with by OS events but zmq_poll already does that. 02:48:34 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483A98D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:49:04 Anyways, I still learned alot getting the libev bindings working. 02:49:10 :) 02:49:14 Learned a new tool. SWIG 02:49:22 -!- ISF_ [~ivan@201.82.138.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:50:00 SWIG and CFFI, aka the moment you stop complaining about "C having some lib I don't!" ;) 02:50:42 -!- Munksgaard- [~Munksgaar@UV-DORM2-19-190.resnet.aug.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:50:53 Yep 02:51:00 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 02:51:07 Though SWIG just falls over on ternary statements 02:51:13 expressions? 02:51:35 well, yeah, can't expect everything from it 02:52:11 Well thankfull I was able to just make the assumptions up front and have it generate almost correct statements. 02:52:41 sbryant: what was your iolib multiplexer problem (if you don't mind)? 02:52:45 It got a little too clever with read eval macros 02:53:13 ysph: I wasn't getting any read events after the first event. 02:53:16 Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:40 i'm having a similar problem, was it user error? 02:54:18 Yes 02:54:31 You have to drain the socket of events. 02:54:39 So just keep reading until you can't. 02:54:43 -!- Karmaon [~john@gateway/tor-sasl/karmaon] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:55:13 really? i thought the default was level triggering ... i'll have to go through it again 02:55:13 _schulte1 [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:25 not in zeromq 02:56:00 Karmaon [~john@gateway/tor-sasl/karmaon] has joined #lisp 02:56:05 so you were using a zeromq backend with iolib.multiplex? i am using epoll 02:56:23 Same problem 02:56:31 iolib wraps that crap up 02:56:39 ysph: more like he was passing ZMQ's sockets to iolib's multiplexer :) 02:56:47 p_l: that's totally valid! 02:56:51 eheh 02:57:05 it's asking for trouble, imo :P 02:57:06 In fact that's what the socket option is for 02:57:55 sbryant: I still stand that it's asking for trouble :) 02:57:55 ah, that is enlightening, maybe i can make my horribly ugly workaround more sensible 02:58:25 Someone using libev with zmq fd's was having the same problem 02:58:45 _pw_ [~user@123.112.69.199] has joined #lisp 02:58:50 -!- _pw_ [~user@123.112.69.199] has left #lisp 03:01:12 *p_l* is going to just call zmq_poll with minimal timeout... or use NOBLOCK in recv 03:01:45 I'm doing that now, but I really need a multiplexer :-\ 03:02:05 also, if iolib provides edge triggered events for io-handlers, doesn't that make using non-blocking reads the best approach? 03:03:11 Hello, #lisp 03:03:21 ah multiplexers 03:03:36 sbryant: I had a similar problem 03:03:49 Thanks to sea4ever, I have a solution using usocket 03:04:10 https://github.com/MULCH-dev/MULCH 03:04:15 Look at the server code 03:04:34 Also, search for "sea4ever lisp irc" 03:04:43 sbryant: why can't you use separate zmq_poll call? 03:04:53 Cosman246: not really fitting, I think ;) 03:05:04 p_l: what's the situation? 03:05:22 Oh I can do it with zmq_poll it just requires a lot of work :-\ 03:05:44 I started to head down that route 03:06:16 Cosman246: a clash between two multiplexers 03:06:24 ;) 03:06:32 I think IOLib would be the simplest now 03:07:45 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-209.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:07:54 I thought about using IOLib for mine, but I could find literally no useful documentation :/ 03:08:53 read the code 03:08:58 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-209.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:09:23 or, more usefully, read the tutorial. 03:09:28 replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 03:09:40 There's a really fantastic iolib tutorial written by psilord. The code is all included with the iolib distribution. 03:10:00 and it explains every step along the way, starting from simple blocking servers to multiplexed event-based servers. 03:11:17 sykopomp: thanks 03:11:43 who maintains iolib? 03:11:46 ... shit, it's 0311 03:11:57 sbryant: among others, fe[nl]ix is involved iirc 03:12:06 22:11 here. 03:12:52 east coast? 03:13:06 (or was it bigger difference?) 03:13:14 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 03:13:36 heh, EST 03:13:37 p_l: yep 03:13:51 America is three hours wide. 03:14:57 that's nothin' 03:15:12 Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.235] has joined #lisp 03:16:12 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-40-50.lns3.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:16:21 Inconsequential latecomer states like Alaska and Hawaii don't count, of course. 03:20:13 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 03:21:20 -!- DataLinkDroid [~David@CPE-124-179-25-31.lns6.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: Bye] 03:22:55 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.23.125.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:23:09 I know I'm doing it wrong, because whenever I translate pseudocode for some basic linear algebra function into CL, it looks 10x grosser. 03:23:52 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dyvsmyqyznolutgv] has joined #lisp 03:23:59 than fortran? That'd be surprising ;) 03:24:16 fortran in fortran is better than fortran in CL 03:27:42 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:27:43 yep 03:28:05 and "pseudocode for linear algebra" sounds to me like something written with fortran in mind 03:28:33 You might try looking at haskell linear algebra routines. 03:28:34 fortran is a fortress for scientific computation 03:28:54 (and mathematical) 03:29:01 ..and yet Fortress is a better Fortran. 03:29:02 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dyvsmyqyznolutgv] has left #lisp 03:29:13 thank you, GLS 03:29:14 It's hard to be uglier than fortran 77. 03:29:56 haskell might be a clean writeup of linear algebra? 03:29:57 IDK 03:30:20 IDKFA FTFY 03:31:01 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #lisp 03:31:02 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Client Quit] 03:31:04 Lambda the Ultimate Linear Algebra Routine 03:31:34 pnathan: it's easy to do "clean". Clean and useful is harder... except when you can just make huge calls to the BLAS or LAPACK (which tend to be anything but clean). 03:31:50 Sure. :) 03:31:59 Did someone say FORTRAN? 03:32:26 I am more than delighted to present old Fortran code I wrote https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/nibbles-and-bits/src/7df9caf625e3/Fortran/qsolve.f 03:33:09 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #lisp 03:33:18 where's the allcaps? 03:33:35 -!- Vutral [~ss@2a01:198:35a::1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:33:46 fortran 90-95 is good about that 03:34:07 I know I know, "wow Quadrescence, that is surprisingly good looking Fortran code!" 03:34:18 also, "I love your music!" 03:34:30 Vutral [~ss@2a01:198:35a::1] has joined #lisp 03:34:31 and you don't even have to make space how you would do on a punch card? wow, that's a progress! 03:34:43 Coincidentally, I am porting that code to lisp 03:35:46 -!- xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 03:35:51 with f2cl? 03:36:00 No, manually 03:36:10 xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has joined #lisp 03:36:39 https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/qsolve/src/da2b37736c70/ranking.lisp 03:36:51 It's an ugly and slow process. 03:37:03 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 03:37:24 ...is it okay if I liked the fortran version better? 03:37:59 yes, I just need to convert it to CL code, then redo the CL code to look nicer and not depend on as much state that I do 03:38:23 why don't you just rewrite it from scratch? 03:38:35 Because I forgot the algorithms I used for some things 03:38:53 coyo [kvirc@pool-71-164-238-90.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:38:53 -!- coyo [kvirc@pool-71-164-238-90.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 03:38:53 coyo [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 03:39:15 sysop_fb [~fb@108-66-160-34.lightspeed.spfdmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:39:30 And I'm not quite clever enough to convert the algorithms from stateful to less stateful without having written the stateful version out to get a feel for it. 03:40:02 *Cosman246* is reading "Evolution of Lisp" 03:40:17 *stassats`* is not reading "Evolution of Lisp" 03:40:35 "About this time, the Scheme community starts denying that Scheme is a dialect of Lisp, claiming closer bonds to Algol." 03:40:35 03:41:04 *Quadrescence* got Let Over Lambda for Valentine's day, along with chocolate. 03:41:18 A very romantic present. 03:41:54 Ooo. 03:42:01 dys`` [~andreas@krlh-5f71c6e3.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:07 Wow 03:42:12 I need to finish rereading LoL. 03:42:38 Quadrescence: let me know how it is! 03:42:40 (the book) 03:43:02 btw Quadrescence i decided to use sloccount to estimate how many lines of lisp ive written over the years 03:43:05 dto, I've read a hundred or so pages. It's good but I think the typography needs a good deal of editing and improvement. 03:43:22 is it badly kerned? 03:43:30 including all my elisp and cl since 2005 03:43:34 No it's kerned fine. It was typeset in LaTeX. 03:43:36 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:43:52 Quadresence: LaTeX typesetting is beautiful! 03:43:53 Quadrescence: about 30KLOC 03:43:57 unless you want to typeset code 03:43:59 -!- dys` [~andreas@krlh-d9be6fc5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:44:04 in tables 03:44:05 Cosman246, A very false myth! 03:44:15 Cosman246, Well typeset LaTeX is beautiful. 03:44:29 It doesn't take too much work to typeset Latex code nice 03:44:35 YokYok [~david@vmailbox.org] has joined #lisp 03:44:36 ah 03:44:38 It takes a good deal of work. 03:44:44 Especially for a book. 03:44:59 yay for Nimbus Sans L 03:45:04 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:33 Overfull boxes, underfull boxes. Let Over Lambda uses the wrong marks for quotation. There are some mishaps with \verb being used, apparent in a footnote especially. But it's the content that matters anyway, I suppose. 03:45:44 Though I don't care for the emacs/vim flaming at the end. 03:45:55 What does s/he say? 03:46:03 what's the content like? i've heard it's like On Lisp but wackier 03:46:04 emacs is the work of the devil 03:46:18 the devil must be good, then 03:46:20 dto, It has a very informal, "talking at the reader" tone. 03:46:23 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.4.1] 03:46:23 Eh. I hit it somewhat for my thesis and it turned out pretty nice. 03:46:39 hmm 03:46:46 could be good or bad Quadrescence 03:46:52 LoL is opinionated and, imo needed an editor. 03:46:53 I think it's fine for this book. 03:47:03 pnathan, yes, I agree. 03:47:21 There are opinions coming out the wazoo with that book. 03:47:54 I have a hard time entrusting my time to someone who seems to love themselves this much. 03:48:39 People can be enthusiastic about Lisp. I'm okay with that. 03:50:15 i show my enthusiasm by writing more code 03:50:28 I show my enthusiasm by arguing over features 03:50:32 stassats`, Books are important too, you know. 03:51:08 Quadrescence: LoL doesn't seem important to me 03:51:49 LoL aggressively works on macros. It provided me ways to think about my code that were new, and still gives me ways to think about them. So I think its a valuable book for me and my knowledge & experience level. 03:53:04 pnathan: how did you think about your code and how do you think now? 03:53:36 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129230077.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:53:52 The manipulating of the lexical & special environments was previously something I had not considered. 03:54:13 do you really use it? 03:55:12 No, but I don't really do any sophisticated work in Lisp IMO 03:55:50 it sounds like something id enjoy, i love macros 03:55:58 pnathan: well, the least sophisticated your macros are, the better 03:56:24 lest you outclever yourself or some other reader 03:57:19 I keep hearing that, but I haven't been burnt yet. Probably just need to write more code. 03:59:20 -!- yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Quit: computer sleeping] 04:04:15 Harag [~phil@dsl-146-202-89.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 04:04:59 what's your ideal with blocky? 04:05:40 tomodo: i'll be back ina few minutes 04:06:11 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 04:07:51 -!- snorble_ [~snorble@c193-14-18-68.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:09:48 -!- CampinSam [~CampinSam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:10:13 yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:11:30 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-209.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:12:41 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-209.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:16:49 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:16:50 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.235.212] has joined #lisp 04:20:40 tomodo: can you be more specific 04:23:09 what is the ultimate aim 04:25:30 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-35.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:26:31 -!- YokYok [~david@vmailbox.org] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:27:15 *p_l* would love Factor-style UI o_O 04:28:58 what's so special about the Factor UI? 04:29:45 hefner: feels like a modern-day CLIM, at least the listener 04:30:06 hmm, I haven't seriously used it since 2008. 04:31:04 well, that's my first reaction to playing around with it 04:31:22 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:31:28 I suspect some smalltalk implementations have similar things 04:32:12 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:49:39 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 04:49:51 Greetings lispers 04:51:48 hi tmh 04:52:41 Hey p_l 04:53:38 -!- sysop_fb [~fb@108-66-160-34.lightspeed.spfdmo.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:56:52 -!- yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Quit: computer sleeping] 04:58:19 modern-day CLIM. that would be nice. 04:59:08 they'd still bitch about it on IRC. 04:59:10 yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:59:16 slyrus: Why? 04:59:43 well, first of all, it would be more moderner :) 05:00:02 *ThomasH* opens the CLIM 2.0 user guide 05:00:15 hefner: 'sok, all the cool kids are on twitter. 05:01:13 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:02:14 ThomasH: see beach's thoughts on a CLIM3 and the nested coordinate system, for one 05:02:38 and improvements in the various implementations would be nice 05:02:43 slyrus: Where? For that matter, does beach every hang out here anymore? 05:02:49 *ever* 05:02:52 well, no, he doesn't 05:03:04 but I'm pretty sure those thoughts have been archived somewhere 05:03:17 even though I can't point to them at the moment 05:03:48 but, seriously, UIs have evolved since the early 90's, CLIM not so much 05:04:30 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 05:04:36 I'm running the CLIM demo in LispWorks, should be working. 05:04:37 mcclim squandered a lot of effort caring about compatibility with an antiquated (and inadequate) specification, for compatibility with commercial implementations hardly anyone uses 05:05:11 -!- replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:05:44 oh well, at least it got antifuchs a job. 05:06:27 hefner: So worse is better? 05:06:34 heh 05:07:01 better is better, but it's hard enough to build anything in the X ecosystem that even works. 05:07:10 hah 05:07:15 worse can be much worse (-: 05:07:32 X is being replaced. 05:07:38 In Fedora. 05:07:45 hefner: regarding this point, I'm still surprised that mcclim works as well as it does 05:07:52 Aethaeryn: and good luck to them! 05:08:05 Aethaeryn: With? 05:08:10 Aethaeryn: by something that, arguably breaks the principles further 05:08:15 reading the discussions on lwn, it seems like nobody has an idea with what (-: 05:08:23 exactly! the desktop mafia is finally overthrowing the government. 05:08:46 *ThomasH* gets back to work coding 05:08:50 anyway, I am just dropping in here to point you all to the @xwindowsystem twitter account, which is absolutely wonderful. 05:08:55 don't worry about the goverment 05:08:59 *p_l* generally feels about wayland this way "Hey, our bitchin' swagger broke X11 further, let's make it from scratch just with our shit" 05:09:10 *rme* seconds @xwindowsystem 05:09:40 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 05:09:54 I have twitter account solely for the pursposes of following things, but I quit following anyone and now get emails from twitter that I'm missed. 05:10:12 Jubb [~ghost@pool-72-66-102-48.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:10:30 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:11:56 Throw away and rewrite [any critical component] every year so no one knows how it fucking works. <--- freedesktop.org? 05:12:13 haha, I am just reading a support discussion about X on os x lion, in which this faq item came up: http://www.rahul.net/kenton/faqs/Motif-FAQ.html#251 05:12:26 note the mention of tapes. I am very amused. 05:14:52 -!- Vutral [~ss@2a01:198:35a::1] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:17:00 Vutral [~ss@2a01:198:35a::1] has joined #lisp 05:17:20 -!- _schulte1 [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:17:21 paralumina [~paralumin@ip72-213-141-195.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:59 Hello everyone. 05:18:32 Hello paralumina! 05:18:56 I've a simple question: Does bordeux-threads support arguments to be passed to the function called? I checked the API and it strictly says that it calls the function with 'no' arguments, but with sb-thread:make-thread I can use :arguments to call them. 05:20:12 I wrap calls with a no-arg lambda function 05:20:53 paralumina: (bt:make-thread (lambda () (frob 1 2 3)) works. 05:20:57 loosely & perhaps slight misname (bordeux-threads:make-thread #'(lambda () (my-func foo bar)) 05:21:00 (which is what pnathan is talking about) 05:21:17 Thanks, pnathan. I will try this. 05:21:44 Thanks sykopomp. 05:21:50 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:22:14 Is bordeaux-threads the best portable threading library, or are there others I should try out besides the commercial licenses like LispWorks? 05:22:15 Oh yeah. I committed that one in, and the only time I used it was to write tests. 05:22:26 -!- coyo [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Quit: Heaven isnt a place, Bartleby, it's being with people who love you.] 05:22:32 paralumina: that question doesn't make sense. 05:23:13 paralumina: bt is a wrapper over various implementations' native threading libraries. 05:23:41 if you want more than what bt provides, you may find that the implementation-specific libraries are more featureful. 05:23:50 but your code will no longer work across implementations. 05:23:56 my bad. I am just a hobbiest, not any sort of professional. 05:25:41 I was just seeing if there was an easier way to port between linux and osx, but if using specific implementations (sbcl -> clozure cl) then that would work for what I need. 05:25:52 Thanks guys for your help. 05:26:20 both sbcl and ccl (and others such as clisp, ecl, abcl, etc) work on both linu and osx (and ms-windows). 05:26:59 paralumina: you could use the same implementation on both platforms. 05:31:18 italic [~b@web125.webfaction.com] has joined #lisp 05:32:03 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 05:32:44 Does sbcl implement an FFI for calls to C and objective-C? 05:32:49 Yes. 05:32:57 Objective-C is just a C library. 05:33:40 But instead, use CFFI, which provides a portability layer above the FFI of each implementation. 05:33:47 only C. You get obj-c if you can pretend it's C. 05:35:06 So then protability is not really about between platforms but between implementations of CL? 05:35:16 paralumina: not even. 05:35:23 Did anyone ever have a good explanation for why (every #'predicate ()) => t ? 05:35:27 paralumina: there's this CL standard. All implementations are conforming. 05:35:37 ThomasH: (and) --> T 05:35:50 ThomasH: because it's true? 05:35:52 paralumina: and for things that change from implementation to implementation, there are portability libraries. 05:36:15 Anything is true of all the elements in an empty set. 05:36:16 ThomasH: it's a lot like why (*) = 1 or (+) = 0 05:36:17 ThomasH: x{}, x>0 is true. 05:36:27 -!- Karmaon [~john@gateway/tor-sasl/karmaon] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:36:41 hefner: I'd say it's even stronger. 05:37:35 pjb: Unfortunately, I've never had real analysis. 05:37:37 ThomasH: we cover that around the first month of intro to discrete math. It's really not specific to programming. 05:37:44 why to you think #+(and) and #+(or) work? 05:38:00 pkhuong: Rub it in, thanks. 05:38:04 :-) 05:38:41 ThomasH: if you're fine with the excluded middle, you can try and find an element in the empty set that doesn't satisfy [predicate]. 05:39:32 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-197.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:39:37 Karmaon [~john@gateway/tor-sasl/karmaon] has joined #lisp 05:40:03 if the foundations of mathematics were left up to me, I'd probably have screwed this up. 05:40:42 hefner: I think in some logics, it's treated as something like a type error ;) 05:40:53 pkhuong: Ok, it's vaguely starting to make sense. But, again, engineering pretty much left me with PDE and Calculus of variations. I'm becoming a believer that that's not sufficient anymore. 05:42:20 hefner: the foundations of mathematics are left open to choice to each mathematician actually. 05:42:29 hefner: you can work with the formal system you want. 05:42:50 -!- italic [~b@web125.webfaction.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:43:23 Thanks pjb for explaining these things. 05:44:01 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-114-81.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 05:46:41 that's why they call it the axiom of choice 05:47:15 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-209.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:47:22 tomodo: uh? no. 05:47:26 jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-121.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:48:28 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-209.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:48:39 Do most of you here have some masters or doctoral degree? 05:49:47 paralumina: I doubt that. fwiw, I'll only get a masters if I drop out of my phd program ;) 05:50:16 -!- Karmaon [~john@gateway/tor-sasl/karmaon] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:50:18 pkhoung: lol. Well it puts things into perspective. 05:51:08 paralumina: I'm hoping that we see a change in the educational system with things like open courseware and the Khan Academy. More of an emphasis on mastery instead of passing meaningless hurdles. 05:52:30 Karmaon [~john@gateway/tor-sasl/karmaon] has joined #lisp 05:53:16 ThomasH: grad school feels like an apprenticeship to me. To a lesser extent, so did my undergrad. 05:53:58 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.3.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:54:43 pkhuong: That's a good experience. My undergrad was peppered with weed-out courses, the masters level was a decent experience, but my PhD work has languished for various reasons. 05:56:16 -!- alvis [~alvis@tx-184-5-64-249.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: alvis] 05:58:33 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Quit: http://www.cyphase.com/] 06:00:57 -!- Karmaon [~john@gateway/tor-sasl/karmaon] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:01:07 thomash: khan academy? I will look this up. I got an email recently describing udacity.org and it seemed something to check out. 06:01:40 It's udacity.com 06:01:40 Thanks again for your help guys. Maybe I will be able to actually contribute soon instead of consume. 06:02:12 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-142.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:02:34 Karmaon [~john@gateway/tor-sasl/karmaon] has joined #lisp 06:03:09 -!- Karmaon [~john@gateway/tor-sasl/karmaon] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:03:27 pjb: lol, even got that wrong. 06:04:16 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 06:04:41 ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has joined #lisp 06:05:10 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-209.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:09:13 -!- paralumina [~paralumin@ip72-213-141-195.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:09:48 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 06:10:05 rmoon [~user@24.68.147.165] has joined #lisp 06:11:01 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 06:11:48 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:12:27 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 06:15:12 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 06:16:14 -!- xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:16:36 meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 06:17:39 xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has joined #lisp 06:19:34 X99 [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has joined #lisp 06:20:06 -!- Iceland_jack [~baldur@earth.sudo.is] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:20:40 Iceland_jack [~baldur@earth.sudo.is] has joined #lisp 06:21:55 -!- xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:22:24 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.69] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 06:22:59 The mixin class should generally be the second class inherited, right? 06:23:38 So you can specialize on the first class and have it take precedent, etc. 06:24:02 ThomasH: usually. But, if it matters, I'd take a second look at that inheritance graph. 06:24:39 pkhuong: Yeah, as soon as I typed that, I was second guessing it. 06:25:19 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:25:55 Karmaon [~john@gateway/tor-sasl/karmaon] has joined #lisp 06:28:34 gko [~gko@27.246.133.84] has joined #lisp 06:29:54 _schulte1 [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:30:12 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-142.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:30:15 -!- _schulte1 [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:31:25 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-142.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:32:08 -!- mensch [~mensch@c-174-62-210-182.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:32:38 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.133.173] has quit [Quit: rme] 06:33:53 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 06:34:28 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.3.40] has joined #lisp 06:34:50 Arrdem [~reid@resnet-46-120.dorm.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 06:35:25 -!- yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Quit: computer sleeping] 06:39:49 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:39:52 -!- rmoon [~user@24.68.147.165] has left #lisp 06:39:59 superjudge [~superjudg@195.22.80.141] has joined #lisp 06:40:00 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.199.168] has joined #lisp 06:42:03 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:42:26 mdh [~user@cpe-98-155-81-158.san.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:45:34 mal [~mal@www.wimmekes.net] has joined #lisp 06:47:21 mrSpec [~Spec@188.21.162.214] has joined #lisp 06:47:29 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@188.21.162.214] has quit [Changing host] 06:47:29 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:51:21 mensch [~mensch@c-24-128-27-99.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:52:49 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-pgqsgsfpnybvrfos] has joined #lisp 06:52:49 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-pgqsgsfpnybvrfos] has quit [Changing host] 06:52:50 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:55:35 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-121.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:58:20 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-72-66-102-48.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:58:41 -!- X99 [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:58:50 alvis [~alvis@tx-184-5-64-249.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 07:02:27 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-142.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:03:37 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-142.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:04:21 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:06:35 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-108-128.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:07:59 The_third_man [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:08:49 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-108-128.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 07:08:54 -!- Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:12:18 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.12.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:12:55 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-197.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:14:34 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.3.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:18:58 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.106.180] has joined #lisp 07:20:35 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:21:45 mikecsh [~mikecsh@113.28.74.33] has joined #lisp 07:22:41 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 07:23:30 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.15.137] has joined #lisp 07:23:33 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 07:23:49 hkarlen [~user@ip-85-197-171-11.c4stads.bikab.com] has joined #lisp 07:26:39 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-167-213.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:27:49 I don't know why I assumed that INTERSECTION would provide any sort of ordering. 07:28:01 Strange idea indeed. 07:29:16 pjb: I think it was due to the fact that I knew the input lists were ordered and if I were to perform the intersetion by hand, the result would also be ordered. My conceptual model was incorrect. 07:30:44 ThomasH: if you can sort it, cl:intersection is far from the best tool ;) 07:31:48 pkhuong: Right now I just need to get it done and I'm too tired to do it by hand. Brute force it now, fix it later. :-) 07:34:59 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 07:36:10 hmm, too bad MERGE doesn't have a remove-duplicates arg 07:37:28 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.199.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:37:40 welcome back, rahul. 07:37:50 but (delete-duplicates (merge seq1 seq2)) should preserve the order, I think 07:37:53 thanks :) 07:38:11 so.. how would you do it using SERIES? :) 07:38:21 hahaha 07:38:27 *rimshot* 07:38:30 hmm, you could probably use latching 07:39:14 rahul: I think I'll use that, thanks. 07:39:52 first you mingle 07:45:09 I finally figured out a use for mixins and now I see them everywhere. 07:45:57 ThomasH: sometimes you have to re-implement CL functions because the standard doesn't guarantee an implementation. Eg. most destructive list functions don't specify how the conses are reused. Sometimes you want them to be reused in a specific way. 07:46:06 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:46:57 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-61-242.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:47:07 pjb: Yes. Just to clarify, I wasn't trying to connect the intersection issue with my mixins comment. 2 separate comments. 07:47:17 (let* ((combined (mingle seq1 seq2 )) (prev (previous combined)) (collect-nconc (mapping ((item combined) (prev prev)) (unless (equal item prev) (cons item)))) 07:47:31 not too pretty, heh 07:48:01 but that collect-nconc is just a remove-duplicates on a sorted list and so can be defunned. 07:49:34 10 lines of code for a mutable cell. 07:50:41 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-142.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:50:52 (defun collect-non-repeated (series &optional (test #'eql)) (collect-nconc (mapping ((item series) (prev (previous series)) (unless (funcall test item prev) (cons item)))) 07:51:54 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-142.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:52:32 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 07:52:32 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 07:52:32 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 07:52:35 (let ((nonce (list nil))) (dolist (x list-1) (setf (mutable-cell x) nonce)) (loop for y in list-2 when (eq (mutable-cell y) nonce) collect y)) Look, no hashing! 07:53:44 where is this cell's storage located? 07:54:05 somewhere. 07:54:08 heh 07:54:23 (append a b) 07:54:26 look, no consing ;) 07:54:55 some authors have suggested having it in each object, like a hash code field. 07:55:40 sure, but then if two different libraries wanted independent mutable cells on an object, you'd need to recompile the compiler 07:55:49 or at least a good portion of the compiler 07:56:02 nope. The key is that a lot of algorithms don't need long-lived cells. 07:56:57 hmm, ok, so you give a unique name to each cell and treat it as you'd treat a field in a prototype-instance 07:57:23 steal a bit in the object header 07:57:38 hefner: dynamically? 07:57:39 no, no. You just need one shared cell per object. 07:57:50 pkhuong: as long as there aren't threads :) 07:57:55 rahul: right. 07:58:10 pkhuong: you're only using one bit of information, though. 07:58:10 pkhuong: and as long as code that uses this feature doesn't call other code that uses this feature 07:58:27 rahul: which is often the case. 07:58:50 asvil` [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 07:58:54 pkhuong: until it's not, and your application goes completely bonkers and it takes you days to figure out why 07:59:18 I don't see how this is supposed to work for fixnum and friends. 07:59:25 rahul: where would a call to a function that uses the shared mutable slots hide in the intersection example I gave? 08:00:40 pkhuong: in the snippet someone inserts later on :) 08:01:04 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:01:10 oh sure, if you can't read the code you modify, you deserve to lose. 08:01:37 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-61-242.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:01:45 well, yeah, this is a very simple example 08:02:19 but if you break that up into functions where you don't see the mutable-cell calls and/or parametrize it with a test parameter.... 08:02:37 if there's a test parameter, the mutable cell trick doesn't work. 08:02:54 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:02:59 good morning 08:03:08 yeah, I guess this is explicitly only going to work for removing eq duplicates 08:03:10 hefner: it doesn't... I still think it's interesting, even if it ends up being backed (partially or not) with some sort of hash table, because we can still try to exploit locality. Virtual memory ought to be amazingly slow, yet it isn't. 08:03:15 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:03:35 virtual memory tends to be reasonably fast because of TLBs 08:03:50 rahul: we can do the same here. 08:03:59 because people write their programs to have locality of reference for other reasons 08:04:06 morning, mvilleneuve 08:04:29 rahul: exactly. But (good) hash tables work very hard to throw that away. 08:05:15 much of the time, the hash table doesn't span multiple pages 08:05:44 rahul: it spans multiple cache lines. 08:06:25 so even when I access contiguous data, I expect *each* look up in a hash table to incur a cache miss. 08:06:27 sure, but it doesn't thrash the TLB, which is a major slowdown 08:07:22 -!- meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:07:25 I don't see your point. Even < 4kB hash tables depend on hiding locality for their performacne guarantees. 08:08:13 it's true that memory is pretty damn fast these days 08:08:32 and by fast you mean slow? 08:08:55 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-142.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:08:55 relative to CPU it's slow, but in absolute, it's quite fast... again, there's locality there 08:09:01 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 08:09:50 it can take anywhere in a range of 2 orders of magnitude to access a memory location depending on whether it's in the same row or not 08:10:08 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-142.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:10:46 (as the previous access) 08:11:16 ictxiangxin [~ictxiangx@220.168.197.55] has joined #lisp 08:11:17 it's somewhat less than twice as slow, really. 08:11:41 so if the only cache misses are on the same page, you're likely only going to take 5-6 memclock cycles instead of 10-15 08:12:06 don't you have to write back the row before you can load the next? 08:12:13 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 08:13:02 it really comes down to the fact that performance really doesn't matter that much any more 08:13:03 are we still talking memory addressing? Re-strobing the high half of the address takes less time than strobing the low half and reading/writing a value. 08:14:04 where 'half' depends on the number of chips on the memory module, you mean? 08:14:11 rahul: no. 08:14:11 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:14:47 pkhuong: then I don't think we're talking about the same thing. I'm talking about rows/columns. 08:15:01 Yes. It's always 2d, regardless of the number of chips. 08:15:21 oh, the values are split before hitting the memory bus? 08:16:27 ah... it's a separate command to the module to change row vs change column 08:16:41 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-142.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:16:50 AWizzArd [~the@splendidlord.com] has joined #lisp 08:16:57 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 08:17:41 anyway... a single mutable cell/object: looks easier to implement than full-blown support for very good EQ hash tables, especially with GC, and it's pretty good. 08:17:52 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-142.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:18:27 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-61-242.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:18:30 yeah... bloats each object, tho 08:19:06 but if there's already alignment happening that leaves empty space, no loss, of course 08:19:14 -!- ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has left #lisp 08:19:23 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 08:20:26 -!- Vutral [~ss@2a01:198:35a::1] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:20:31 for some reason, SBCL images tends to have structures with an even number of slots, so most of them don't have free space left (we looked into that for EQ hashing). 08:20:42 hmm, from what it looks like to me, it's usually 3x slower to change rows than to change columns 08:21:20 well, they were probably intentionally designed to have an even number of slots to not leave any free space ;) 08:22:43 spradnyesh [~pradyus@117.192.50.126] has joined #lisp 08:23:47 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 08:24:30 kilon [~user@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 08:26:48 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 08:28:14 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:28:41 _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has joined #lisp 08:29:35 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping 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[~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-142.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:24:11 -!- Patterngazer_ [~Patternga@globulon.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Quit: A day without sunshine is like .... night] 10:25:17 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-142.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:29:56 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 10:32:05 Xach, hello I've a new minor release of clonsigna. Should I file an issue to https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects ? 10:32:55 momo_ [~momo@218.79.142.37] has joined #lisp 10:34:31 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.15.137] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:36:49 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-142.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:38:04 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-142.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:38:10 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 10:40:10 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-142.netcologne.de] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 10:40:12 gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.25.123] has joined #lisp 10:40:41 Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-16-175.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:41:18 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-142.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:42:41 ,q 10:42:51 gz [~gz@209-6-49-85.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 10:43:56 -!- parabolize [~gyro@c-75-70-14-105.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:45:50 parabolize [~gyro@c-75-70-14-105.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:50:31 kiuma: s/complitely/completely/ in http://common-lisp.net/project/clonsigna/ 10:50:51 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-142.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:51:41 -!- zerd [~zerd@212.117.165.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:52:02 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-142.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:52:33 -!- CrLF0710 [~user@114.96.76.70] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:53:47 -!- gko [~gko@27.246.133.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:54:33 kiuma: if you use a variable instead of a literal string as format string, you'll loose the compiler's ability to check the format string for you. 10:55:03 kiuma: also, moving the format string to some other location usually makes it harder to follow what's going on, as one cannot see what the format is doing. 10:55:35 namoamitabuddha [~namoamita@114.94.239.137] has joined #lisp 10:56:17 ((MPLUS . #0=(SIMP)) (#1=(MEXPT . #0#) $X 3) (#1# $Y 3) (#1# $Z 3)) 10:56:38 What is #0, #1...? 10:56:51 tensorpudding [~michael@99.23.125.15] has joined #lisp 10:57:20 H4ns, thanks for the tips. Do you suggest to create a new minor version or patch this last one ? (I haven't already announced anything) 10:58:07 kiuma: whatever your release style is. can't help with that, sorry :) 10:58:19 namoamitabuddha: ## is a reference to the corresponding #=, so this is a way of printing structures with sharing and circularity unambiguously 10:58:31 -!- benny [~benny@i577A749A.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:59:07 namoamitabuddha: you might want to bind/set *print-circle* to nil before printing that structure 10:59:33 tfb: jdz: I'll try, thanks 10:59:57 jdz: setf? 11:00:28 jdz: Ok, thanks 11:02:46 zerd [~zerd@212.117.165.85] has joined #lisp 11:03:31 -!- [SLB] [~balthasar@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Disconnected by services] 11:03:34 |SLB| [~balthasar@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 11:03:34 -!- |SLB| is now known as [SLB] 11:06:35 -!- Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-16-175.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:06:58 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:08:42 -!- dys`` is now known as dys 11:09:01 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host188-225-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:09:54 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.106.180] has quit [Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)] 11:11:26 yake [~yake@125.110.174.4] has joined #lisp 11:12:09 Posterdati [~tapioca@host188-225-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:12:30 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:12:56 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:13:07 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.106.180] has joined #lisp 11:13:20 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 11:13:57 -!- ictxiangxin [~ictxiangx@220.168.197.55] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 11:14:29 ictxiangxin [~ictxiangx@220.168.197.55] has joined #lisp 11:15:08 -!- am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:15:34 And, is there any tutorial on maxima about lisp-mode programming? 11:16:28 Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-16-175.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:17:21 -!- BixSqrl [~Bix@c-50-131-212-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:17:25 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:21:02 -!- yake [~yake@125.110.174.4] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 11:21:50 BixSqrl [~Bix@c-50-131-212-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:22:36 Iceland_back [~user@fire-out.ru.is] has joined #lisp 11:24:30 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host188-225-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:24:49 just google 11:24:58 the maxima manual is already full of hints 11:25:05 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.106.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:25:14 and there are some websites which mention some oddities/specialties with them.... 11:25:58 and the mailinglists have some notes too.... 11:25:59 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.106.180] has joined #lisp 11:26:06 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:26:17 -!- naryl [~weechat@citadel.niflheim.info] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 11:27:05 naryl [~weechat@188.134.95.93] has joined #lisp 11:27:13 -!- EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:28:58 EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 11:29:52 Sbidicuda [~antani@host188-225-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:30:09 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:32:32 Posterdati [~tapioca@host188-225-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:32:41 -!- EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:32:49 EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 11:34:04 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:35:26 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:36:02 daniel__1 [~daniel@p5082B3A9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:37:39 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 11:37:54 -!- EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:38:11 -!- kanru` [~user@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:39:18 -!- daniel___ [~daniel@p5B326E25.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:39:21 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host188-225-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:40:08 Posterdati [~tapioca@host188-225-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:40:39 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host188-225-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:41:00 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:41:22 Posterdati [~tapioca@host188-225-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:41:45 Involuntary [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:41:48 -!- Involuntary [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:41:51 -!- namoamitabuddha [~namoamita@114.94.239.137] has left #lisp 11:42:37 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 11:43:35 -!- drdo [~drdo@drdo.eu] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 11:44:19 drdo [~drdo@drdo.eu] has joined #lisp 11:50:03 silenius [~silenius@i59F77406.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:50:04 espadrine [~thaddee_t@acces2477.res.insa-lyon.fr] has joined #lisp 11:50:11 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:51:31 -!- meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:54:42 hi 11:56:08 am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.101] has joined #lisp 12:03:33 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-40-50.lns3.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:04:15 -!- Iceland_back [~user@fire-out.ru.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:06:38 waterpie [~waterpie@athedsl-318032.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 12:09:09 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:10:29 -!- docAvid [~user@74-94-233-157-Michigan.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:11:51 docAvid [~user@74-94-233-157-Michigan.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:37 -!- waterpie [~waterpie@athedsl-318032.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:22:22 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-61-242.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:22:54 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-142.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:23:34 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.25.123] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:24:14 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-142.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:27:34 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:56 -!- Neronus [christian@heraklit.ayous.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:27:56 -!- literal [hinrik@w.nix.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:27:56 -!- cYmen [~cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:27:56 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@static.6.236.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:28:01 Neronus [christian@heraklit.ayous.org] has joined #lisp 12:28:13 cpape` [~user@cpape.eu] has joined #lisp 12:28:20 cYmen [~cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has joined #lisp 12:28:25 -!- hyko [~toby@my.unixuni.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:28:32 rootzlevel [~hpd@static.6.236.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 12:28:35 -!- cpape [~user@cpape.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:28:40 -!- jsnell [~jsnell@ash.snellman.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:28:46 jsnell [~jsnell@ash.snellman.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:49 literal [hinrik@w.nix.is] has joined #lisp 12:31:02 kwmiebach_ [~kwmiebach@xdsl-84-44-254-43.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:31:51 Vutral [I6Q6KINHsd@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 12:32:00 hyko [~toby@my.unixuni.com] has joined #lisp 12:32:18 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 12:32:23 namoamitabuddha [~namoamita@114.94.239.137] has joined #lisp 12:33:44 pnq [~nick@ACA22C26.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 12:33:46 Is there any symbol-append in Common Lisp? 12:33:55 -!- kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@xdsl-87-79-57-220.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:35:58 leo2007 [~leo@123.123.249.55] has joined #lisp 12:38:37 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-167-213.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:41:12 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-35.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:42:23 waterpie [~waterpie@athedsl-318032.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 12:44:28 yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 12:44:49 symbol-append 12:46:24 namoamitabuddha: nope 12:46:34 namoamitabuddha: but you could write one 12:46:41 I want to 'promote' an instance from one struct to a subtype, the slots/layout are identical. Can I do this without having to specify a change-class method specialization or juste make-… a new instance manually? 12:47:14 yvdriess: you're out of luck if you're using structs 12:47:17 namoamitabuddha use intern symbol-name to write one 12:47:22 damn, ok 12:53:32 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-142.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:54:47 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-142.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:55:28 hi. tomodo im still trying to think of an answer to your questino. 12:57:22 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:57:50 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 12:59:14 -!- mensch [~mensch@c-24-128-27-99.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:02:38 -!- waterpie [~waterpie@athedsl-318032.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:03:55 -!- namoamitabuddha [~namoamita@114.94.239.137] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 13:08:34 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:10:06 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 13:10:43 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:10:54 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 13:12:19 _nix00 [~Adium@180.172.40.183] has joined #lisp 13:14:46 -!- Harag [~phil@dsl-146-202-89.telkomadsl.co.za] has left #lisp 13:16:24 -!- kilon [~user@178.59.17.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:17:22 borkman` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 13:17:36 -!- ictxiangxin [~ictxiangx@220.168.197.55] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.1.1 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 13:19:17 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-142.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:19:30 danishman [~kvirc@62.243.156.218] has joined #lisp 13:19:42 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:19:51 -!- borkman [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:20:22 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 13:20:33 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-142.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:21:35 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:24:34 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:25:40 Iceland_nack [~baldur@fire-out.ru.is] has joined #lisp 13:26:37 -!- lakkris [~unf@pool-71-164-238-90.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Heaven isnt a place, Bartleby, it's being with people who love you.] 13:26:38 -!- bandu [~unf@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:26:38 -!- coyo [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:29:59 rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:30:52 dtw [dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 13:31:10 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 13:32:07 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:32:31 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 13:34:02 -!- naryl [~weechat@188.134.95.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:34:55 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.40.163.203.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:35:39 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 13:35:53 kiuma: not necessary 13:36:19 naryl [~weechat@188.134.95.93] has joined #lisp 13:36:27 Xach, do I have do do anything ? 13:36:30 kiuma: no 13:36:33 *to do 13:36:34 ok 13:36:39 thank you 13:38:02 morning Xach. 13:38:05 and lispfriends 13:38:20 dto: yo! 13:38:38 hey 13:40:25 -!- antgreen [~user@rrcs-70-62-98-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:42:15 -!- anonus [anonymous@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:2cc7] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:44:11 Does anyone know how to get ABCL to dump me some bytecode (.class file) suitable for running with a jvm? 13:45:20 solussd [~solussd@user-0cdvten.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 13:47:58 borkman`` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:46 -!- borkman` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:50:03 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-142.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:50:06 ltaoist [~mo@183.20.109.57] has joined #lisp 13:51:10 xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has joined #lisp 13:51:16 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-142.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:51:28 zfx [~zfx@109.174.157.242] has joined #lisp 13:51:42 -!- zfx [~zfx@109.174.157.242] has quit [Changing host] 13:51:42 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 13:57:46 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:59:51 anonus [anonymous@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:2cc7] has joined #lisp 14:03:38 waterpie [~waterpie@athedsl-318032.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 14:06:02 yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 14:06:49 -!- yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:07:30 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-409259.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 14:10:02 drdo: I'd try compile-file. 14:11:32 -!- chr [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:14:33 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-40-50.lns3.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:14:53 istr ABCL not being able to generate .class files. At least, I remember looking into it once when playing with android. 14:15:53 sykopomp: it can. Their fasl files are .class files 14:17:27 Hey #lisp, I asked on ##programming but got no sensible answers 14:17:27 why do so few languages include a ratio/fraction primative datatype? 14:17:46 Iceland_nack: I can see why you didn't get an answer :-) 14:17:55 oh? 14:18:10 Iceland_nack: Because the question doesn't have a single "correct" answer. 14:18:11 Iceland_nack: radios are useless if you don't have bignums. Few languages provide bignums because people are obsessed with speed. 14:18:26 Right, my answer was going to be along the lines of pjb's 14:18:37 Right, but what about Haskell? 14:18:38 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:18:55 Haskell is rooted deeply in mathematics/academia but they don't include ratios as a data primitive 14:19:00 Iceland_nack: there's also the problem of static typing. 14:19:03 hm 14:19:08 pjb: most languages are designed aroung the computer represetnation of things like numbers, strings, arrays, etc. They rarely have a more abstract way of representing these things. 14:19:09 Iceland_nack: have you tried asking in #haskell? 14:19:16 jdz: (I wouldn't dare) :) 14:19:19 Iceland_nack: consider: (defun fact (x) (if (< x 1) 1 (* x (fact (1- x))))) 14:19:32 Iceland_nack: (fact 4) can be done with fixnum (C int). 14:19:51 Iceland_nack: (fact 20) starts with fixnums, but must switch to bignums in the middle. 14:19:57 hm 14:20:29 But RE: obsessed with speed, wouldn't ratios provide /faster/ computations in some instances? 14:20:43 Iceland_nack: in lisp, we have dynamic, strong typing, so the same function fact, is actually a "generic" function that can work as well on fixnums, bignums, ratios, floats or even complexes. 14:20:47 and not to mention more accurate results 14:20:59 urandom__ [~user@p548A4DAA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:00 Iceland_nack: more memory to process = slower. 14:21:11 pjb: Haskell has static typing and normal operators do work on ratios though 14:21:29 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-409259.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:21:34 kilon_alios [~kilon@ppp-94-64-186-216.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 14:21:36 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.3.40] has joined #lisp 14:21:43 Python isn't obsessed with speed at all nor is it strongly typed but they only include it as a library 14:22:02 It just feels strange 14:22:20 Python has built in support (not great support but still) for complex numbers 14:23:02 Some languages such as Python and Ruby are doing things differently just to be different from Lisp. Lisp would be a perfectly good solution to their problem domain, but their authors needed the celebrity shoot. 14:23:24 If they included all the feature of lisp, people would wonder why not just use lisp. 14:23:27 Iceland_nack: the issue is that in order to include it (and complex math) you need to have a much more complicated system. If you stick with fixnums, the implementation of all the mathematical operations becomes trivial, as it's all available as low-level instructions on the CPU. Once you decide to go bignum/ratios/complex the entire system becomes much more complex 14:23:40 I see 14:24:10 but both Haskell and Python have bignum support and support for fractions/ratio datatypes 14:24:16 (* #C(1/2 3/4) #C(4/7 5/13)) => #C(-1/364 113/182) 14:24:29 Iceland_nack: yes? 14:24:34 gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.25.123] has joined #lisp 14:24:40 Iceland_nack: neither of those languages are particularly low level 14:25:11 In other cases, it's the language designers that don't know enough about language design to figure out it's a good idea (for example, Perl) 14:25:32 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-117-44.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:25:50 Perl is more of an amalgamation than anything 14:25:51 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA22C26.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:26:10 Or because it's assumed it's not needded intthe problem domain, eg. emacs consciously choose not to have bignums, because there's never more than 2^32 characters in a buffer. 14:26:15 Iceland_nack: It was the best example I could think of of a language that is designed by someone who has absolutely no understanding of language design :-) 14:26:17 but I have often wondered how language designers make their decisions 14:26:22 hah 14:26:24 Iceland_nack: well, that and PHP 14:26:59 loke: putting php and perl into the same basket does not serve you well 14:27:00 is there any way to increase the amount of backscroll saved lines in the little CMD window that sbcl exe's pop up on Windows? 14:27:01 there are two types of languages: Those made by people who know Lisp, and the rest. 14:27:23 dto: yes, you can change the settings of the windows terminal window. 14:27:27 H4ns: both have quite fundamental flaws... 14:27:33 loke: right but the difference is not obvious: java vs. ruby 14:27:46 err, sorry, both are lisp-known languages. 14:27:51 java vs. fortran. 14:27:51 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-93.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 14:27:57 ryborg [~ryan@d50-92-133-125.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:01 I just recently learned that Smalltalk was originally written in Lisp. 14:28:06 loke: it is better to praise what you like than you bash what you don't, in particular if you don't know what you don't like well. 14:28:09 Yes, most languages are. 14:28:17 H4ns: do you have to do that after it starts, or can it be done on a system-wide basis? i ask because i'm trying to get crash output from someone who's getting a crash on 64-bit windows with my sbcl-compiled exe 14:28:24 H4ns: I know Perl very, very well 14:28:26 sellout: Haskell, Javascript, Smalltalk, Postscript, etc. 14:28:28 dto: you can save the settings permanently. 14:28:35 H4ns: My skills in PHP is minor though 14:28:46 H4ns: I should have said, I _used_to_ know Perl very well 14:28:48 pjb: Ah, I didn't know JS was. 14:28:49 loke: well anyway, this is #lisp 14:28:52 I'm trying to forget it all :-) 14:28:57 H4ns: thanks, that's awesome. i'm preparing some info to share with SBCL people to see if i can help troubleshoot what the issue is 14:29:04 sellout: Almost all. 14:29:31 Also sorry if the question seemed off topic :) #lisp is usually where I get the best responses 14:30:24 pjb: which haskell was written in lisp? 14:30:33 The first one. 14:30:39 which is that? 14:30:44 PostgreSQL was written in lisp originally too. 14:30:56 jdz: there's code in CMU AI repository 14:30:59 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:31:10 pjb: that was before it was called PostgreSQL though, right? 14:31:12 mind you, that's the kind of Haskell no one would like today 14:32:17 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:32:39 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 14:32:55 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:33:17 sellout: there's still a JS engine defined in common lisp in the mozilla source tree. 14:33:22 Yes, it's the first versions that are written in lisp. When people still don't know what they want to get. 14:33:55 Fade: there is one in Quicklisp, even 14:34:30 Are there any resources on programming language design; not compilers or types/syntax but information on libraries and what to include by default, viz my previous question 14:35:31 Iceland_nack: no, there's aboslutely nothing about programming language designs. 14:35:48 Thank you for the snarky response :) 14:35:49 Google gives only About 913,000 results. That's ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. 14:36:11 Yes, I have looked at those but I haven't seen any of them discuss what I specifically brought up 14:36:27 -!- xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:36:35 -!- jeekl [~crz@unaffiliated/jeekl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:37:39 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-35.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:37:47 xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has joined #lisp 14:38:43 ok, i found this quote: «T was then abandoned in 14:38:43 favour of Common Lisp to address performance and portability 14:38:43 issues. This resulted in what became known as Yale Haskell.» (http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/simonpj/papers/history-of-haskell/history.pdf) 14:39:03 -!- ryborg [~ryan@d50-92-133-125.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:47:48 -!- leoncame` [~user@KD175129170046.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Asta la vista] 14:48:40 paul424 [~chatzilla@apn-77-114-45-54.dynamic.gprs.plus.pl] has joined #lisp 14:49:18 yoklov [~yoklov@137.99.240.170] has joined #lisp 14:49:55 -!- am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:50:06 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:51:28 -!- yoklov [~yoklov@137.99.240.170] has quit [Client Quit] 14:51:54 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:52:06 jeekl [~crz@unaffiliated/jeekl] has joined #lisp 14:53:42 any idea how to improve this : http://paste.lisp.org/display/127803#1 ? 14:53:49 its permutation predicate ... 14:54:02 ' 14:54:07 -!- sipo [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 14:54:16 using a correct indentation :) 14:55:18 ok . any autoreformating in slime ? 14:55:31 -!- silenius [~silenius@i59F77406.versanet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:56:35 I don't know. 14:57:15 zmv [~zmv@186.204.150.191] has joined #lisp 14:57:17 -!- xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:57:44 paul424: docstrings? 14:58:23 paul424: a predicate takes one argument and returns a boolean. 14:58:34 aha . ok :D 14:58:40 Kron__ [~Kron@129-97-120-93.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 14:58:46 a permutation predicate would be named: permutationp and indicate whether the argument is a permutation. 14:59:12 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-93.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:01:30 pjb: out of interest, why must a predicate take just one argument? 15:01:37 huh that makes sense. Mine is ... uhh generative ... uhh something :D 15:01:41 Iceland_nack: I really liked http://www.amazon.com/Design-Concepts-Programming-Languages-Franklyn/dp/0262201755/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1329404482&sr=8-1 15:02:13 zfx: otherwise it's not called a predicate. 15:02:40 is that a CL specific thing? 15:02:50 Thank you sykopomp, this looks like what I was looking for :) 15:02:59 zfx: lisp. 15:03:13 zfx: but there's a grammatical definition which is consistent. 15:03:19 so SUBTYPEP is not a predicate? 15:03:23 In mathematics, a predicate is commonly understood to be a boolean-valued function P: X {true, false}, called the predicate on X. However, predicates have many different uses and interpretations in mathematics and logic, and their precise definition, meaning and use will vary from theory to theory. So, for example, when a theory defines the concept of a relation, then a predicate is simply... 15:03:25 ...the characteristic function or the indicator function of a relation. However, not all theories have relations, or are founded on set theory, and so one must be careful with the proper definition and semantic interpretation of a predicate. 15:03:31 -!- Kron__ [~Kron@129-97-120-93.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:03:51 zfx: yes, there are a lot of exceptions and fuzziness in CL. 15:04:01 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 15:04:28 Iceland_nack: it covers a slight bit of syntax, but it considers the issue mostly pointless to discuss and focuses on the concepts (not so much the 'standard libraries', as you seemed to be asking for) 15:04:36 there is EQUALP :-) 15:04:46 zfx: subtypep is a parameterized predicate :-) 15:04:47 predicate logic also doesn't have that restriction, from what I understand 15:05:07 zfx: look above dude, predicate might be characteristic function of some relation , you dig ? Like set: People relation : likes likes( Fred, Willma ) ? 15:05:14 -!- borkman`` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:05:26 paul: I understand that, which is why I was wondering about pjb's definition 15:05:47 zfx: well, you can always reify relations too. 15:06:12 I don't know what that means :) 15:06:51 make an object from a relation. 15:06:58 that's good, I'm not as interesting in syntax 15:07:03 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #lisp 15:07:31 Iceland_nack: it pretty much uses sexps the whole way. ;) 15:07:50 haha, great! 15:09:16 after some digging I found this cheat sheet ; gives all the syntax constructions --- great for beginers :D 15:09:19 http://hyperpolyglot.org/lisp 15:09:30 well, I just had a look at the CLHS glossary, and there is no restriction on the arity of a predicate there 15:09:50 and it certainly isnt restricted as such in first-order predicate logic 15:09:51 now I just need to muster up some cash to buy it :) 15:10:08 and I don't know what you mean by making an object from a relation 15:10:49 so it *seems* like you just talked a load of bollocks, but feel free to correct me 15:11:09 zfx: (parent child father) --> # 15:11:33 So (some-predicate-p child father) == (some-predicate-p (parent child father)) 15:11:48 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:10 zfx: "reification" is a pretty well known term in sciency circles; it's like getting something that is not a first class citizen to become one (you know, in CL functions are first class objects, but not in some other languages) 15:12:37 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-93.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 15:12:44 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-93.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:12:57 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-93.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 15:13:22 I think that is a shaky basis on which to argue that a predicate must take one argument 15:13:30 you could argue similarly for all functions 15:13:31 -!- ltaoist [~mo@183.20.109.57] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:13:54 but I will read more and come back :) 15:13:57 zfx: did you not know that all functions take one argument? 15:14:08 jdz: yes :) 15:14:19 but that is different to what pjb is saying 15:14:56 yes 15:14:57 that would be more like arguing (some-predicate-p child father) == (((some-predicate-p parent) child) father) 15:15:50 What does setq stand for ? 15:16:01 paul424: set quote probably 15:16:03 set q 15:16:07 I mean the meaning set quote yeah 15:16:15 ok 15:16:28 paul424: look at SET to see the relation with quote 15:16:32 (setq name "Alice")  (seq 'name "Alice") 15:17:33 Iceland_nack: except when it is not 15:17:45 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.10.39] has joined #lisp 15:17:57 except when it's not. 15:18:10 yes 15:18:35 ngz [~user@69.205.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:50 In emacs<24 and in LISP 1.5, it is always (setq var val) = (set (quote var) val) 15:18:59 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.39] has joined #lisp 15:19:00 when is it not? 15:19:02 pjb: cool story, bro 15:19:24 antgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-nwniikyrjvkcodya] has joined #lisp 15:20:27 limetree: when you have lexical bindings. 15:20:43 limetree: and when var is a symbol macro, in which case (setq var val) = (setf var val). 15:26:59 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@180.172.40.183] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:28:19 set operates only in the dynamic scope? 15:28:43 (set var val) == (setf (symbol-value var) val) 15:28:50 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 15:28:50 It doesn't even need a special variable. 15:29:30 pjb: are you sure they are identical? 15:29:50 clhs says so 15:30:05 pjb: I mean, (setq foo t) is supposed to be undefined behaviour, but (setf (symbol-value 'foo) t) is not, correct? 15:30:36 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@195.22.80.141] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 15:30:49 loke: yes. 15:30:56 the latter is well-defined but not necessarily useful 15:31:35 (specifically, if the symbol is not declared special it is not very useful) 15:31:48 loke: that said, recently I couldn't find where it said explicitely that (setq foo t) on a undefined variable foo was undefined in the CLHS. 15:32:18 pjb: interesting. I just assumed it was undefined since SBCL complains about it :-) 15:32:27 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:32:35 If (setq foo t) = (set (quote foo) t) = (setf (symbol-value (quote foo)) t), then it should work that way even if foo is not defined. 15:32:51 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 15:32:57 pjb: yeah 15:33:10 On the other hand, when you try to get the value evaluating foo, you may not be able to retrieve it. You'd have to use (symbol-value 'foo). 15:33:41 pjb: Doesn't many CL's implicitly declare foo to be special when you (setq foo t) ? 15:33:54 loke: well, that's the point, this is not specified. 15:34:00 why cannot symbol-value see lexical veriables? 15:34:06 And ISTR there's at least one that makes it lexical 15:34:17 limetree: because the compiler forgets the variable names. 15:34:31 (disassemble (compile nil (lambda () (let ((a 42)) (+ a a))))) 15:34:34 pjb: which one? 15:34:35 oh 15:34:44 X-Scale [email@2001:5c0:1400:b::b793] has joined #lisp 15:34:48 loke: I don't remember. 15:35:24 limetree: however, you can use closures, and build your own environments. 15:35:36 pjb: clisp makes it lexical iirc 15:35:46 loke: pjb is spreading misinformation, again. SETQ isn't (set (quote ...) ...). 15:36:35 limetree: see http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_frm/thread/fadbcbf462264423/29713966b57546c7?hl=en 15:36:45 pkhuong: I didn't said it was. 15:37:19 my understanding is that the implication is that it might be, if encountered outside any lexical scope 15:37:38 or if foo is a special variable. 15:38:25 loke: you're never in an empty lexical scope. 15:38:46 pkhuong: well, the symbol may or may not have a lexical scope 15:39:01 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:39:07 loke: symbols don't have scope, variables have 15:39:09 Perhaps I should have said "when the symbol does not have a lexical binding"? 15:39:16 pkhuong: there's no lexical variable in the toplevel. 15:39:23 loke: variables have bindings, not symbols 15:39:54 but symbols have value slots to compensate! 15:42:07 nepnux [~wildnux@cpe-76-183-81-208.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:42:38 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 15:42:39 -!- kilon_alios [~kilon@ppp-94-64-186-216.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:44:38 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:45:16 jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-121.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:45:17 -!- solussd [~solussd@user-0cdvten.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: solussd] 15:45:27 solussd [~solussd@user-0cdvten.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 15:46:29 nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has joined #lisp 15:46:56 benny [~benny@i577A108C.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:47:29 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:50:09 -!- solussd [~solussd@user-0cdvten.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:50:11 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:52:51 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:55:07 karbak [~kar@ip67-152-0-116.z0-152-67.customer.algx.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:52 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:00:21 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:01:25 jjkola [~jjkola@xdsl-83-150-83-66.nebulazone.fi] has joined #lisp 16:05:56 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-93.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:06:40 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-213-183.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 16:06:40 -!- waterpie [~waterpie@athedsl-318032.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:06:45 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A4DAA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:06:49 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 16:07:44 -!- bsamograd [~user@184.71.240.90] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:08:22 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:14:31 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:14:35 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:16:40 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:17:16 bsamograd [~user@184.71.240.90] has joined #lisp 16:17:59 Kron__ [~Kron@129-97-213-183.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 16:20:27 cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has joined #lisp 16:21:23 Ralith: so I managed to test the change and it worked. Then a new problem emerged: EINVAL with an invalid fd :-\ 16:21:43 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-213-183.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:22:35 borkman`` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:45 Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:13 -!- drwho [~drwho@216-122-174-206.gci.net] has quit [Quit: bbl] 16:26:21 -!- nepnux [~wildnux@cpe-76-183-81-208.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:31:02 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:31:38 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 16:31:46 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:32:22 mrSpec [~Spec@188.21.162.214] has joined #lisp 16:32:29 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@188.21.162.214] has quit [Changing host] 16:32:29 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:32:46 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-142.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:33:59 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-142.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:36:10 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:36:26 -!- borkman`` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:36:59 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-142.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:37:43 spearalot [~spearalot@c83-248-111-48.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:38:13 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-142.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:41:22 vairav [~vairav@c-98-207-170-37.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:13 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:47:17 waterpie [~waterpie@athedsl-318032.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:48:06 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:48:16 solussd [~solussd@rrcs-76-79-44-2.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:49:09 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.39] has joined #lisp 16:49:38 pnq [~nick@AC81A703.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 16:49:38 how do I prevent uhh Xorg keybindings to be called when I am in emacs ? ( like the TAB key ? ) 16:49:46 nepnux [~wildnux@69.199.88.19] has joined #lisp 16:50:53 paul424: those are probably your window manager key bindings (not Xorg), and you should look in the documentation for that. 16:54:21 -!- Kron__ [~Kron@129-97-213-183.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:56:03 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 16:56:08 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.10.39] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:57:49 -!- paul424 [~chatzilla@apn-77-114-45-54.dynamic.gprs.plus.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:59:06 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:59:45 -!- vairav [~vairav@c-98-207-170-37.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:00:02 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 17:01:38 wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:19 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:08:31 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 17:10:00 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:10:51 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:12:06 b4 [~hraban@sd4406b9e.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #lisp 17:12:35 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:03 Hello! Could somebody help me in my quest to get slime´s sldb (among others) to always appear in a fixed frame, not just a (seemingly) random one? 17:13:55 venk [~user@mail.protocomtech.com.au] has joined #lisp 17:13:56 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 17:14:01 my emacs setup is usually split once vertically and then the right frame (frame, right? or was it window?) split once again, horizontally 17:14:21 -!- vpit3833 [~user@mail.protocomtech.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:14:36 then I have the repl in bottom right and I would like sldb and other slime buffers to appear, when necessary, in the top right. is that possible? 17:14:52 I like to work on code in the (longer) left frame 17:15:05 b4: that's window 17:15:06 or is this perhaps more of a #emacs thing? 17:15:09 your os window is called a frame 17:15:09 ah window, sorry 17:15:17 alright 17:15:18 and yes #emacs is more appropriate 17:15:29 alright then. 17:15:55 out of curiosity, for the slime users: how do you deal with this? 17:16:01 -!- Iceland_nack [~baldur@fire-out.ru.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:16:52 b4: The current behavior works fine for me. 17:17:06 oh hi xach 17:17:18 by the way, I am Hraban, dunno if you remember 17:17:21 Hi! 17:17:26 we ate together at the eclm 17:17:30 I do recall 17:17:41 b4: to be honest never really bothered me 17:17:41 I decided to follow your and our other neighbors´ advice and went with slime 17:17:41 -!- JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:18:31 holycow [~holycow@pdpc/supporter/bronze/holycow] has joined #lisp 17:18:32 ok... I am bothere by how sldb ¨jumps around¨: make a mistake, appears in top right, choose abort, make another mistake, appears in another window 17:19:55 Hmm, in my experience, it always appears in the bottom of the repl or the editor window in which I'm working. 17:21:47 xach: does it not annoy you when the buffer with the actual code goes away? 17:22:02 I like looking at the sldb and the code at the same time to understand the situation 17:22:17 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:22:26 b4: The code does not go away, it is in the upper window. And with "v" in the debugger, it jumps to the form that triggered the debugger. 17:22:29 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.235.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:22:35 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.123.249.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:23:17 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 17:27:19 rme [~rme@50.43.133.173] has joined #lisp 17:27:32 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 17:28:48 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-93.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 17:29:02 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:31:30 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-119-246.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:44 JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 17:35:27 -!- Arrdem [~reid@resnet-46-120.dorm.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:39:05 vairav [~vairav@209.49.23.82] has joined #lisp 17:39:42 Arrdem [~reid@resnet-46-120.dorm.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 17:44:38 -!- 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[~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 20:07:40 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:08:02 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 20:09:56 sipo [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:01 -!- zophy [~zophy@host-5-150-220-24.midco.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:13:33 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:14:13 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.133.173] has quit [Quit: rme] 20:15:55 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-121.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:17:35 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.69] has joined #lisp 20:20:46 Siphion [~siphion@93-35-144-20.ip55.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 20:24:21 HG` [~HG@dsbg-4db59d16.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:45 -!- Siphion [~siphion@93-35-144-20.ip55.fastwebnet.it] has left #lisp 20:27:35 when writing to iolib sockets, is it better to leave the :write handlers in place even when the output buffer has been drained, or is it a better idea to remove the :write handler until the application knows there's more data coming in? Does it matter significantly based on the profile of the application? 20:29:01 sykopomp: remove the write handler 20:29:25 sykopomp: otherwise your function will be called every time write is available on the socket 20:29:33 sykopomp: which will peg your CPU at 100% 20:30:42 ...heh. Yes, might become a problem. 20:34:45 karbak [~kar@ip67-152-0-116.z0-152-67.customer.algx.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:58 You should only have a write handler active if you have data to send 20:37:04 sykopomp: unfortunately, you'll need iolib.multiplex:fd-monitored-p to tell if you need to add a handler 20:37:45 dlowe: I can track it at the application level, too. I know when writes are going through. 20:37:59 unless some jerk decides to grab the internal socket, but they can burn in hell if they do for all i care. :) 20:38:50 sykopomp: sure, you can. If you like duplicated information. 20:42:31 nepnux [~wildnux@69.199.88.19] has joined #lisp 20:42:54 drwho [~drwho@216-122-174-206.gci.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:02 kpal [~kpal@83.94.112.68] has joined #lisp 20:43:28 *sykopomp* wonders how much work fd-monitored-p does. 20:44:17 oh ech. fd-monitored-p isn't even exported. 20:44:33 that's why I said unfortunately 20:47:22 -!- venk is now known as vpit3833 20:48:37 -!- karbak [~kar@ip67-152-0-116.z0-152-67.customer.algx.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:50:11 karbak [~kar@ip67-152-0-116.z0-152-67.customer.algx.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:11 -!- karbak [~kar@ip67-152-0-116.z0-152-67.customer.algx.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:50:51 karbak [~kar@ip67-152-0-116.z0-152-67.customer.algx.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:01 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 20:56:45 -!- humasect [~humasect@d24-235-167-67.home1.cgocable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:59:21 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A370C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:00:58 gabnet [~gabnet@44.23.67.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:10 -!- vpit3833 [~user@mail.protocomtech.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:01:45 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@44.23.67.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:02:41 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:03:00 -!- kpal [~kpal@83.94.112.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:03:32 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81A703.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:03:46 -!- jjkola [~jjkola@xdsl-83-150-83-66.nebulazone.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:03:49 -!- ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:04:37 -!- HG` [~HG@dsbg-4db59d16.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:07:18 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-167-213.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:07:50 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:08:10 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 21:13:37 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 21:13:56 sykopomp: you could just keep a state flag on your side 21:14:55 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:18:06 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-233-14.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:19:44 -!- parabolize [~gyro@c-75-70-14-105.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:19:44 s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-232-84.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:59 Ralith: yes, that's what I meant by keeping track of it on my end. 21:20:15 elatedpixel [~David@cpe-174-097-005-182.sc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:20:34 ah, so you did 21:20:53 vpit3833 [~user@mail.protocomtechnology.com] has joined #lisp 21:21:32 parabolize [~gyro@c-75-70-14-105.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:55 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@31.24.92.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:22:35 borkman`` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:00 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:24:53 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 21:25:58 -!- borkman`` is now known as borkman 21:26:55 -!- Ashii [~Ashii@c-0657e255.246-1-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:27:38 -!- Arrdem [~reid@resnet-46-120.dorm.utexas.edu] has left #lisp 21:32:30 -!- borkman [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:32:53 brooke [~brooke@c-71-63-19-18.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:00 yvdriess [~Beef@83.101.33.238] has joined #lisp 21:34:34 How can i make a pathname from a string ignoring wildcards? 21:34:50 drdo: what do you mean by "ignoring"? 21:34:52 i.e. just treat any wildchar characters as part of the name 21:36:29 i'm guessing that you can't portably do it. 21:36:52 i.e. even (wild-pathname-p (make-pathname :name "foo*")) yields a true value 21:37:22 That's rather odd 21:37:48 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 21:37:54 drdo: not really. the lisp pathname system is meant to deal with a subset of possible file systems in a portable fashion. 21:38:28 drdo: there are several cases where lisp pathnames and files fail to work with some sort of unix file for some reason or another. 21:38:43 -!- osa1 [~sinan@31.140.73.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:39:03 So how would you open a file called "foo*" ? 21:39:15 drdo: you wouldn't, at least not portably. 21:41:00 I wonder who had that great idea 21:41:27 -!- v0yager_ [~v0yager@bordm.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:41:36 drdo: there is no "who". common lisp pathnames are not meant to deal with all pathnames possible. 21:42:01 drdo: you need to understand the history of common lisp to understand why this is the case. 21:42:05 drdo: the best answer is probably "using iolib" 21:42:09 H4ns: Oh yes there's no who, the CL standard fell out of the sky 21:42:14 if you want to do Unix things, use the Unix API. 21:42:23 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-408904.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:42:28 -!- asvil` [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:42:41 Ralith: I don't want to do anything, i just want to process paths and i don't want wildcards :S 21:42:46 drdo: you don't understand, and search for a person to blame. i pity you. 21:42:55 can't you escape the wildcards? 21:42:55 drdo: so just store them as strings? 21:42:57 I don't even want to open 21:43:10 then why use pathname objects at all? 21:43:15 -!- momo_ [~momo@218.79.142.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:43:27 They represent paths and not reinventing the wheel 21:43:41 wrong wheel, I'm afraid. 21:43:44 Unix paths *are* strings. 21:43:57 drdo: note that i have not said that it would not be possible in a non-portable fashion. for example, with ccl you can use a backslash to escape the wildcard. 21:44:19 FireFly [~firefly@firefly.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #lisp 21:45:08 v0yager_ [~v0yager@bordm.com] has joined #lisp 21:45:11 What's the [] wildcard? 21:45:29 -!- nepnux [~wildnux@69.199.88.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:45:41 drdo: it's a character class wildcard. i don't think that it is supported by common lisp. 21:46:00 wild-pathname-p disagrees 21:46:42 -!- danishman [~kvirc@62.243.156.218] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 21:47:55 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.125.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:48:31 drdo: on your implementation maybe, on mine it agrees. 21:48:41 sbcl 21:49:00 drdo: so sbcl supports character class wildcards. ccl does not. 21:52:13 drdo: let me give you a perspective why wildcard characters are not allowed in cl pathnames: 21:52:43 Would love to understand the rationale 21:53:01 drdo: when cl was created, unix was by no means prevalent. there were other systems, with very different file system semantics. pathnames were meant to create a portable layer over the differences between file systems. 21:53:35 drdo: so, for example, in the vms operating system, you would not be able to create a file with a wildcard character in the name. the operating system would disallow that. 21:53:42 H4ns: Well sure, but if you want portability, disallowing some characters doesn't get you that 21:53:53 H4ns: You should get an exception in such cases 21:54:16 What happens if some other filesystem doesn't allow a character that CL allows? 21:54:20 It's the same deal 21:55:23 drdo: the discussion is pointless, the spec will not change. i think you want to have an abstraction layer over unix/windows filesystems. the pcl has some example of that and if that doesn't suit you, you should study filesystems and create a library for handling them :) 21:55:55 madnificent: I don't think trying to understand choices people made in the past is pointless 21:56:06 Froward [~PANZERKON@206.231.99.110] has joined #lisp 21:56:21 drdo: i tried to explain. if you don't like the explanation or think it is bad, that is up to you 21:56:43 drdo: the recommendation that i can make is to use only portable pathnames when using common lisp pathnames. 21:57:17 heh. When CL was created, there were filesystems without directories, weren't there? :) 21:57:20 H4ns: You didn't give a suitable explanation, the portability rationale is easily crushed by what i said 21:57:27 drdo: the explenation is there: as H4ns said: they support a subset of possible filesystems. i make of it: they made sure that you could write applications on a wide variety of filesystems. not everything, but very very much. 21:57:43 drdo: well, then i'm sorry. 21:57:48 urandom__ [~user@p548A50EE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:13 H4ns: You should apologize for X3J13, it seems. 21:58:21 drdo: for the cases which you describe: if it's not supported by the spec, then you may still use #p"content" which your implementation may handle differently 21:58:39 sykopomp: no, i'll just apologize for my bad pedagogical skills. 21:58:41 madnificent: Of course you can't support every filesystem, but i don't see what disallowing characters gets you 21:59:22 drdo: it means that a conforming program has a decent chance of working even when you change the file system and OS. 21:59:30 madnificent: I used sb-ext:parse-native-namestring, this particular point is solved, i'm just trying to understand it now 21:59:33 drdo: it gets you some handy support on filesystems. you don't need to support every possible character on a filesystem, in order to be able to write programs which can use the filesystem for storage. yes, perhaps it'll miss some things. i don't think their goal was to support everything. and if it was, then i'd argue that it was a dumb goal. 22:00:16 momo_ [~momo@218.79.203.214] has joined #lisp 22:00:44 -!- v0yager_ [~v0yager@bordm.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:00:48 pkhuong: I guess that's a point if you are trying to create files 22:01:44 I was actually having a problem with "[]" and not "*" by the way 22:02:03 Some file had a "[foo]" in the name 22:03:10 palter [~palter@173-162-137-153-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:26 join #colloquy 22:03:31 pkhuong: that's not actually true. the limits on file names depend on the filesystem 22:03:39 -!- palter [~palter@173-162-137-153-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 22:04:42 -!- sigi-ntb [~sigi@host-85-27-110-224.brutele.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:04:57 pkhuong: and in order to achieve that kind of portability, pathnames should be restricted to the lowest common subset which is probably FAT in 8.3 mode 22:04:58 fe[nl]ix: I think he meant that supporting only a subset of characters that are thought to be widely supported gives you a greater chance of whatever files you create being allowed 22:05:03 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@c83-248-111-48.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 22:05:41 fe[nl]ix: i'm sorry, how does that make pkhuong's statement false. 'a decent chance' seems to be an important part of his argumentation. 22:06:58 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@109.131.149.201] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:08:00 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:08:25 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 22:08:47 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128057225.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 22:08:57 -!- saint_cypher [~rjspotter@208.178.63.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:12:06 -!- ski_ [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:13:59 Joreji_ [~thomas@64-146.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:14:15 -!- daedric [~daedric@2a01:e0b:1000:21:baac:6fff:fe99:7ada] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:14:16 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Quit: rpg] 22:14:33 *lars_t_h* is learning Common Lisp: I must write that "Land of Lisp" is an awesome book 22:18:39 -!- elatedpixel [~David@cpe-174-097-005-182.sc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:19:02 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.106.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:20:31 -!- b4 [~hraban@sd4406b9e.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has left #lisp 22:20:37 -!- karbak [~kar@ip67-152-0-116.z0-152-67.customer.algx.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:23:23 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-119-246.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 22:26:47 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 22:27:55 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@64-146.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:30:29 DataLinkDroid [~David@110.140.242.144] has joined #lisp 22:30:42 -!- FireFly [~firefly@firefly.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Changing host] 22:30:42 FireFly [~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly] has joined #lisp 22:31:54 nialo [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:19 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:19 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:32:34 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 22:32:36 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:42 tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.56.170.44] has joined #lisp 22:33:20 funny bug, had #'\= instead of #'/= 22:34:03 -!- DataLinkDroid [~David@110.140.242.144] has quit [Client Quit] 22:34:59 DataLinkDroid [~David@110.140.242.144] has joined #lisp 22:35:47 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:35:47 -!- tritchey_ is now known as tritchey 22:36:42 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:37:04 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.23.125.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:37:17 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:38:28 Ashii [~Ashii@c-0657e255.246-1-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 22:38:40 daedric [~daedric@2a01:e0b:1000:21:baac:6fff:fe99:7ada] has joined #lisp 22:39:07 -!- sipo [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 22:40:32 Could be a subtle breaker. 22:41:01 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 22:41:30 bieber [~quassel@169-75.97-97.tampabay.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:43:44 -!- tensorpudding_ is now known as tensorpudding 22:45:46 Joreji [~thomas@64-146.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:45:57 -!- Joreji [~thomas@64-146.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:47:13 Joreji [~thomas@64-146.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:48:24 kpal [~kpal@83.94.112.68] has joined #lisp 22:50:59 -!- Ashii [~Ashii@c-0657e255.246-1-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:59:46 turtool [cgmorri1@149-169-246-94.nat.asu.edu] has joined #lisp 23:00:09 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:00:14 how do i join mapcar and funcall together to call a passable function through mapcar 23:00:32 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 23:00:36 (defun foo (bar fn) (mapcar #'fn '())) 23:00:36 turtool: you're not making much sense 23:00:44 like that 23:00:45 turtool: (mapcar fn '()) instead. 23:00:46 (defun foo (bar fn) (mapcar fn '())) 23:00:55 just calling it works? 23:01:11 turtool: mapcar is a function. the first argument is evaluated. 23:03:28 do i need to pass fn or #'fn as the agrument? 23:03:46 not the declaration 23:04:11 to what? 23:04:30 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@83.101.33.238] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:04:33 if foo is defined do i pass (foo x fn) or (foo x #'fn) 23:04:33 turtool: #' is for when there is a function named in the current scope and you want to get it as a function object. 23:04:51 #'fn means you have a symbol called "fn" that has the function you want to call associated with it 23:04:55 v0yager [~v0yager@bordm.com] has joined #lisp 23:05:04 DataLinkDroid: not correct in the face of flet/labels. 23:05:21 jlongster [~user@pool-98-117-65-239.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:27 okay, so there is lexical scope also 23:05:47 well, flet/labels use symbols for naming functions as well 23:06:11 tyall. got what i needed enough for it to work the way im thinking 23:06:24 -!- turtool [cgmorri1@149-169-246-94.nat.asu.edu] has left #lisp 23:07:33 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:08:10 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:08:30 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 23:09:08 -!- v0yager [~v0yager@bordm.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:09:45 v0yager [~v0yager@bordm.com] has joined #lisp 23:11:31 -!- v0yager [~v0yager@bordm.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:12:44 Ashii [~Ashii@c-0657e255.246-1-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:18:09 I would thin alexandria:format-symbol would CL:STRING-UPCASE the before the MAYBE-INTERN'ing 23:18:15 thin=think 23:18:29 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:18:58 i wouldn't 23:19:52 so you would expect the interned symbol to be case senstive ? 23:20:14 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:20:19 what makes a symbol sensitive? 23:22:03 (alexandria:format-symbol (find-package "MY-FOO") "~A" "bubba") => |bubba| 23:23:07 you don't need find-package there 23:23:22 mon_key: if your lisp makes it so, yes, that's what it should be 23:23:33 and i don't really understand your question 23:26:20 stassats: It just struck me as one of those situations where one might expect the interning to occur according to the READTABLE-CASE but maybe that is too much DWIMing 23:26:47 "READ"TABLE-CASE, only happens during read 23:27:01 interning a string is not a read 23:27:22 Phoodus: you can consult readtable-case at run-time 23:27:24 tali713` [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:38 -!- tali713` [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:28:02 mon_key: why not just use (alexandria:format-symbol 'my-foo "~A" 'bubba) then? 23:28:23 yep, or (read (format nil "~s" "bubba")) 23:28:30 rme [~rme@50.43.133.173] has joined #lisp 23:28:40 Phoodus: read wouldn't work with that 23:29:07 oops, right, that'll just read a string, not a symbol 23:29:24 Phoodus: i was thinking about adding symbols to hashes. e.g. 23:29:25 (let ((sym (alexandria:format-symbol "my-foo" "~A" "bubba") )) 23:29:25 (setf (gethash sym *my-hash*) sym)) 23:29:32 Phoodus: well, read reads from a stream 23:29:54 yeah, s/eval/read/ is what I was thinking 23:29:58 s/read/eval/ 23:29:58 mon_key: hash-tables can be used with strings 23:30:02 *Phoodus* gives up and goes back to sleep 23:30:08 stassats: i don't want strings :) 23:30:15 Phoodus: read-from-string's what you're thinking 23:31:02 but read-from-string's not entirely safe 23:33:57 -!- Karmaon [~john@gateway/tor-sasl/karmaon] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:34:35 -!- blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-45763eb0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:35:18 -!- dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:35:34 -!- Joreji [~thomas@64-146.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:35:47 Karmaon [~john@gateway/tor-sasl/karmaon] has joined #lisp 23:36:16 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:38:39 fjl [~fjl@178-25-98-61-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 23:39:25 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 23:41:09 pnq [~nick@ACA229C8.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 23:41:29 -!- fjl [~fjl@178-25-98-61-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:41:31 rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 23:44:03 -!- Karmaon [~john@gateway/tor-sasl/karmaon] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:46:53 Joreji [~thomas@64-146.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 23:48:04 -!- kwmiebach_ [~kwmiebach@xdsl-84-44-254-43.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:49:55 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 23:56:00 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.140.56] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]