00:00:16 about the partitioning q, still haven't found the solution 00:00:47 Phoodus, your algo is not correct. eg for 6 it would loose (4 1 1) 00:01:00 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-145-187.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:01:23 (4 2) -> (3 3) ,no (4 1 1) 00:02:10 me2: maybe http://paste.lisp.org/display/127778 works? 00:02:13 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-145-187.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:02:16 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:04:27 anyone know if scheme has an equivalent of unintern? 00:05:03 scheme has no packages 00:05:34 kai_, seems correct. thanks. i'll have to figure out what / how it does. 00:05:35 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-149-60.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:05:42 right, but there is string->symbol - was wondering if there is a way to get rid of a symbol once it's created 00:06:47 rely on the GC 00:07:03 and rely on #scheme to answer questions about Scheme 00:07:47 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:07:52 me2: cool, sorry for the ugly CL style, though :( 00:08:31 Hexstream: http://l1sp.org/cl/loop/named 00:08:41 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 00:09:02 -!- bjonnh` [~bjonnh@bdn33-2-89-86-25-253.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:09:22 http://l1sp.org/cl/loop/each also 00:09:39 *stassats* thought for a moment that LOOP includes a dns server 00:09:46 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:11:48 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-156-15.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 00:12:25 Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:34 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 00:17:25 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:17:45 decaf [~mehmet@unaffiliated/decaf] has joined #lisp 00:19:29 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #lisp 00:22:30 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 00:22:46 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-145-187.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:23:57 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-145-187.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:25:20 -!- retupmoca [~retupmoca@adsl-99-181-132-232.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:28:00 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2D6D8.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:29:22 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:31:25 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 00:33:48 -!- kwmiebach__ [~kwmiebach@xdsl-78-34-98-186.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:34:53 seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:54 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:36:16 -!- Cosman246 [~user@D-173-250-158-56.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:37:40 kai_, ok, i figured out how it does it. Nice. ..if i understood correctly, it computes (summands (-n i)) each time, without saving the previously found? 00:40:04 Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:43 me2: true, sadly :( 00:41:53 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:42:55 me2: no memoization is done, I'm pretty new to common lisp 00:44:05 kai_, ok. thank you very much. i've spent 2 days trying to figure that out, without result. i tried recursion, but still didn't manage to do it :-( given the solution, i am curious / will try to figure out why 00:46:52 maxm- [~user@75.99.81.170] has joined #lisp 00:47:10 me2: had fun doing it, if you find a more elegant solution maybe you can annotate the paste so I can improve my common lisp style :-) 00:47:43 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:47:46 anyone on a linux box wanna help me out for a second? telnet 75.99.81.170 25 and see if it gives you the postfix promtp? 00:48:04 i was also thinking that there is a first part and a second part that must add to the number, and also tried to use recursion, but i expanded both of them, instead of just the second, leading to chaos. thanks 00:48:06 *maxm-* switched to optimum, and is wondering if they indeed opened all the ports up they promised 00:49:38 maxm-, I "telnet 75.99.81.170 25" and it stays on "Trying 75.99.81.170..." 00:50:05 ok, apparently its not open, thanks 00:55:05 -!- DataLinkDroid [~David@1.144.78.142] has quit [Quit: Bye] 00:58:05 Xach: Beautiful! I love it when stuff comes together. =) 00:58:29 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-145-187.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:59:40 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-145-187.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:59:48 -!- maxm- [~user@75.99.81.170] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:59:53 maxm- [~user@75.99.81.170] has joined #lisp 01:00:50 Xach: http://l1sp.org/cl/loop/ should probably redirect to http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/06_a.htm 01:01:24 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:03:09 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:32 I have managed to get libev bindings generated and massaged the cffi to get the example libev program to work 01:04:37 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0.1/20120208060813]] 01:06:37 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-156-15.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:07:14 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 01:07:32 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:07:33 -!- Ralith [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:08:46 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:02 maxm-- [~user@75.99.81.170] has joined #lisp 01:10:15 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-145-187.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:11:29 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-145-187.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:11:38 -!- maxm- [~user@75.99.81.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:12:28 whh [~wh@112.91.81.82] has joined #lisp 01:12:29 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:14:51 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 01:14:59 Not reliably though :-\ 01:16:01 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-145-187.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:16:45 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:17:14 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-145-187.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:17:30 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:17:41 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-50-125-96.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:17:50 -!- paul0 [~paul0@189.26.129.30.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: paul0] 01:18:41 -!- kai_ [~kai@e179016024.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:20:11 paul0 [~paul0@189.26.129.30.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 01:20:35 maxm--- [~user@75.99.81.170] has joined #lisp 01:20:50 kanru`` [~user@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:55 -!- maxm-- [~user@75.99.81.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:22:06 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-58-169-44-238.lns3.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 01:22:57 Xach: I think support for standard macro characters should be advertised on the l1sp.org main page... Is there support for sharpsign? I know it's problematic in URLs because it would be interpreted as a fragment delimiter, but something like cl/sharp/' could work. 01:24:46 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:26:47 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-145-187.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:27:07 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:28:56 -!- p_l [~pl@089-101-208053.ntlworld.ie] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:29:25 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-145-187.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:33:30 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-117-44.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:26 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #lisp 01:35:02 edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 01:35:28 p_l [~pl@089-101-208053.ntlworld.ie] has joined #lisp 01:35:44 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-35.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:13 maxm---- [~user@75.99.81.170] has joined #lisp 01:37:37 borkman`` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:58 -!- ISF_ [~ivan@201.82.138.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:39:05 -!- maxm--- [~user@75.99.81.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:39:24 -!- borkman`` is now known as borkman 01:39:35 Is there anyway I can ensure a number is a double-float? 01:39:57 sbryant: As in check that it's one or coerce it to one? 01:40:26 coerce 01:40:37 which it looks like coerce will do that? 01:40:52 Yeah. 01:41:34 There's also FLOAT with two arguments, the second being a double-float. 01:41:58 -!- me2 [~me2@ppp-94-64-187-161.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:43:24 ah 01:43:25 _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has joined #lisp 01:43:56 SUCCESS! 01:44:12 my broken libev bindings seem to work 01:48:16 maxm----- [~user@75.99.81.170] has joined #lisp 01:48:28 -!- maxm----- is now known as maxm- 01:48:50 -!- maxm---- [~user@75.99.81.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:49:21 can someone please do telnet 75.99.81.170 25 and see if you can get through? 01:49:51 maxm-: It seems stuck on "Trying 75.99.81.170..." 01:50:10 Damn optimum guys are useless, they will be sending technician tomorrow, to help me with it. they insist its open, and that I'm an idiot 01:50:28 worked for me, maxm- 01:50:32 ah 01:50:36 yup, just opened up 01:50:38 many ISPs block outbound port 25 01:50:48 it seems that everything on optimum works with like 30 minutes delay 01:50:59 its a business static ip account 01:51:41 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:51 I am talking about clients, however. If I tried to connect to port 25 from my home DSL line, it wouldn't work, even if the destination port was open. 01:53:34 -!- SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:54:46 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-117-44.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 01:55:27 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-145-187.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:56:05 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:56:28 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:56:39 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-145-187.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:59:09 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-145-187.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:59:21 Jsandys [~jeff@184-77-234-225.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:43 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] 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[~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:51 -!- dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:31:53 dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:36:21 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 03:37:53 blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-45763eb0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:39:50 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:41:00 -!- pspace [~andrew@108-206-72-51.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:41:59 dys` [~andreas@krlh-d9be6fc5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:00 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-emdjgaeqzxqdwbqj] has joined #lisp 03:42:25 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-45763eb0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:43:43 dlowe: with ecl you can compile to .o files, and you can generate an executable like in C, which use libecl.so. 03:44:08 -!- dys [~andreas@krlh-d9be7edd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:44:49 Does anyone have any pointers for debugging cffi? 03:45:35 cffi should have many pointers itself 03:46:28 sbryant: have you tried gdb? 03:46:39 Not yet 03:46:57 I'm trying a few more things and then dusting off gdb 03:48:16 The weird thing is everything works the first time around but trying again not so much 03:48:22 I have to be mucking with some internal state 03:49:40 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.51] has joined #lisp 03:58:02 jmckitrick: that (mapcan #'identity (list 1 2 3)) is non conforming code. You'd expect an error but an implementation could do anything. You might complain to your implementers. (They all complain on nconc, but not on mapcan). 03:58:50 Bucciarati [~buccia@www.inscatolati.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:55 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.75.63] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:59:16 lemoinem [~swoog@88-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:57 pjb`: it's because of the natural way to implement it as nconcing from (list nil), and taking the CDR of that mutable cons. 04:04:06 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.25.8] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:08:06 -!- dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:08:56 dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:04 -!- conntrack [~tor@pdpc/supporter/professional/conntrack] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:11:20 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:12:58 Harag [~phil@dsl-146-202-89.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 04:15:36 -!- hypercube32 [~hypercube@246.111.188.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:18:42 gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.25.123] has joined #lisp 04:23:44 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-117-44.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:18 pspace [~andrew@108-206-72-51.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:19 -!- Arrdem [~reid@resnet-46-120.dorm.utexas.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:28:14 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.133.173] has quit [Quit: rme] 04:28:29 -!- pspace [~andrew@108-206-72-51.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:28:38 pspace [~andrew@108-206-72-51.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:29:34 -!- dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:29:36 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 04:29:45 If anyone else wants to take them for a spin. Had to massage SWIG and really not used CFFI: https://github.com/sbryant/cl-ev 04:29:58 pkhuong: (nconc (funcall f (car list)) (mapcan f (cdr list))) 04:30:04 pkhuong: (nconc 42 ) --> error. 04:30:06 -!- pjb is now known as Guest49489 04:30:09 xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has joined #lisp 04:30:15 DataLinkDroid [~David@CPE-124-179-25-31.lns6.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 04:30:16 (mapcar 'identity '(42 )) --> good. 04:30:20 -!- Guest49489 is now known as pjb` 04:30:30 dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:34 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 04:30:43 -!- Karmaon [~john@gateway/tor-sasl/karmaon] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:31:20 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:31:30 seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:32:52 -!- tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 04:32:54 -!- docAvid [~user@74-94-233-157-Michigan.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:33:15 -!- lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:33:40 docAvid [~user@74-94-233-157-Michigan.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 04:33:53 Karmaon [~john@gateway/tor-sasl/karmaon] has joined #lisp 04:34:03 tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:09 lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:24 -!- redline6561 [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 04:34:35 -!- YokYok_ [~david@AClermont-Ferrand-651-1-233-241.w86-209.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:34:43 pjb: (nconc (list nil) 42) -> (nil . 42); (nconc (cons nil 42) 43) -> (nil . 43) 04:34:52 redline6561_ [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 04:37:04 syamajala [~syamajala@2002:a027:ca4f:a:a83b:720d:c497:20b4] has joined #lisp 04:38:21 pkhuong: why would they prepend the list? 04:38:26 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.59.236] has joined #lisp 04:38:26 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.59.236] has quit [Changing host] 04:38:27 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 04:38:39 pjb: because that way there's always a cons to nconc into. 04:38:54 pkhuong: that's not specified. 04:39:08 This is what we say those implementations are buggy. 04:39:32 no. As I said, it's an implementation artifact, and it's a common misfeature because the nconc trick above is natural. 04:39:48 It is totally unjustified. 04:39:54 sure. 04:40:21 it's an explanation, not an excuse. 04:40:38 So we agree. 04:41:45 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@2002:a027:ca4f:a:a83b:720d:c497:20b4] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:42:01 Arrdem [~reid@wireless-128-62-49-137.public.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 04:44:28 it's as much a bug as the recent spat of bug exposed in bad uses of memcpy instead of memmove. 04:46:46 syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-carl-201-141.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 04:47:02 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-58-169-44-238.lns3.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:51:07 -!- Nisstyre is now known as SussmanGroupie 04:53:03 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-emdjgaeqzxqdwbqj] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:54:48 -!- SussmanGroupie is now known as Nisstyre 04:55:41 retupmoca [~retupmoca@adsl-99-181-132-232.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:57:05 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #lisp 04:59:44 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-carl-201-141.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:59:52 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.235.212] has joined #lisp 05:05:22 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-145-187.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:05:37 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.161.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:06:36 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-145-187.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:11:38 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-145-187.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:12:53 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-145-187.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:14:19 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.199.168] has left #lisp 05:17:00 aha! 05:17:26 it seems libev does not like having io watchers submitted multiple times! 05:17:48 sbryant: yes, C libraries tend to be brittle like that 05:18:03 That's why my advice is to avoid ffi and write the stuff directly in CL instead. 05:18:25 pjb: but this lib is quite nice :( 05:18:56 Some excuses are accepted :-/ 05:22:32 -!- DataLinkDroid [~David@CPE-124-179-25-31.lns6.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:22:44 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-145-187.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:23:08 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-56.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:23:25 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 05:23:30 I did try and use iolibs stuff but it wasn't working and I couldn't quite figure it out. 05:23:50 I will try and dig down in there and see what wasn't working or maybe it was me just doing something incorrectly 05:24:06 but this was also a request for a work project 05:24:49 Anyways we'll have more libraries! 05:25:13 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.69] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 05:26:47 which isn't always a good thing 05:27:06 sbryant: iolib should do what you need. 05:27:18 stassats: that is certainly true 05:27:34 C libraries like libev will generally just be degenerate forms of the same API 05:27:45 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:27:47 would you like advice on resolving whatever problem you were having? 05:27:58 Sure, advice is always welcome 05:28:04 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 05:28:14 did iolib get support for fs events? 05:28:24 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-121-214.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 05:28:27 not afaik. 05:28:29 does libev have that? 05:28:32 rvrebane [~rvrebane@valjapaas.vkhk.ee] has joined #lisp 05:28:33 Yep 05:28:36 oh. 05:28:37 welp! 05:28:43 Ralith: the name suggests it does 05:28:54 stassats: afaik libev just has the regular event suite 05:29:10 what is a regular event? 05:29:17 not "regular event" suite 05:29:21 regular "event suite" 05:29:30 what's an event suite? 05:29:30 i.e. sockets, pipes, timers, etc 05:29:33 set of events? 05:29:37 this isn't formal language :P 05:29:42 hah 05:30:09 POINT BEING as far as I've seen support for async file I/O, if that's indeed what you were talking about, is rare in abstraction libs like that 05:30:17 presumably since it's done so differently everywhere 05:30:52 That's one of the nice things about libev it has it where it can have it has the author put all of his documented complains about it in a single place 05:31:08 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-56.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:31:14 "it has it where it can have it has" 05:31:15 I owe p_l an apology kqueue is so broken on OS X. 05:31:15 what. 05:31:42 Oh certain backends are excluded 05:32:17 -!- redline6561_ [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 05:32:20 anyway, iolib is great for pipes and sockets and things but I've never tried to use it for async disk access 05:32:20 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-56.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:32:22 redline6561 [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 05:32:23 spradnyesh [~pradyus@117.192.58.41] has joined #lisp 05:32:25 don't think it does that 05:32:38 you'd have to check the code or ask fe[nl]ix to be sure though 05:32:55 i didn't mean async disk access, i meant inotify 05:33:03 oh 05:33:22 well I've never even looked into that. 05:33:45 and I wanted timers 05:35:38 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:36:26 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 05:36:46 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@117.192.58.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:38:06 Ralith: you mentioned something about advice or am I not doing a decent job of reading again? 05:38:36 fadvice? 05:39:23 well, it's not about files, i forgot 05:39:24 sbryant: I was willing to offer advice concerning issues with iolib within reasonable limits, should I be able to 05:39:47 having played around with it some in the past 05:39:51 Ah okay. 05:39:56 and being fairly familiar with the paradigm it implements 05:40:44 -!- xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 05:42:24 I might bug you tomorrow about it. It's getting late :-\ 05:42:52 kk 05:43:07 asvil` [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 05:45:26 X99 [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has joined #lisp 05:45:55 -!- drdo [~drdo@drdo.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:50:14 drdo [~drdo@drdo.eu] has joined #lisp 05:51:39 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-afpiuabxypxajkrn] has joined #lisp 05:52:09 -!- rvrebane [~rvrebane@valjapaas.vkhk.ee] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:52:23 -!- X99 [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 05:52:48 X99 [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has joined #lisp 05:52:55 xyxu1 [~xyxu@58.41.12.15] has joined #lisp 05:54:12 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:57:54 Fade: the latin-1 default is kind of unhandy since nowadays utf-8 is considered the default encoding. major browsers (at least firefox) are already using utf-8 05:57:54 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-191-244.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:58:31 that requires the user of drakma to specify utf-8 in places where it's not required with other libraries 05:59:08 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has joined #lisp 06:01:38 latin-1 is safer 06:02:01 and it's not exactly hard to set drakma:*drakma-default-external-format* to :utf-8 06:05:26 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:06:07 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:06:11 -!- Arrdem [~reid@wireless-128-62-49-137.public.utexas.edu] has left #lisp 06:12:12 tensorpudding [~michael@99.23.125.15] has joined #lisp 06:13:11 jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-121.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:15:20 Suppose struct A has slot X, so A-X is the accessor. Suppose you include struct A inside struct B and C. Will typical lisp implementations have to decide at runtime whether the argument to A-X is a B or C struct? That is, is there runtime dispatch in the same sense an equivalent generic function A-X has for methods defined on B and C? 06:15:28 (sorry if this isn't clear) 06:15:58 If it's not clear, maybe saying "this is a question about efficiency" might clarify it. 06:15:59 Quadrescence: your assumption is wrong to begin with. 06:16:30 (defstruct (a (:conc-name zz-) x) ==> accessor is zz-x. 06:16:45 Yes yes, assuming default names. 06:17:09 Quadrescence: structures including other structures will have the same layout as the other structure for the included fields. So the same zz-x accessor can be used on both. 06:17:16 Is B-X any more efficient (typically) than A-X? 06:17:28 No, it will be be the same. 06:17:31 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 06:17:38 Ah, okay. Clever ol' lisp compilers. 06:18:01 Quadrescence: that said, a CL implementation could use CLOS to implement structures 06:18:09 pjb, right 06:18:15 but the same answers would still apply. 06:20:23 Quadrescence: I would assume the typical structure implementation would be quite similar to (defstruct (a (:type vector) :named) ) ; try it. The only difference bein that without :type, you get an opaque data type. 06:20:45 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:21:00 pjb, That was my assumption too 06:21:34 you can test it, you know 06:22:09 stassats, using DISASSEMBLE? 06:22:29 structure accessors can be opencoded 06:22:29 superjudge [~superjudg@195.22.80.141] has joined #lisp 06:22:42 Quadrescence: using a wall-clock 06:22:58 stassats, I would not trust that, personally... 06:23:01 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 06:24:43 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@195.22.80.141] has quit [Client Quit] 06:25:44 what would you trust? 06:25:54 stassats, pjb's word 06:26:02 good luck with that 06:26:06 stassats, :) 06:27:07 i can imagine contriving an example where using an included structure would be slower 06:27:40 stassats, what do you propose? 06:27:59 Using an included structure versus what? 06:28:29 non-included 06:28:46 wasn't that what you were asking? 06:29:26 I was asking whether, given an included struct A in B, whether B-X is faster than A-X on a B-struct 06:29:36 (minus one 'whether') 06:29:36 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-rohchczcjotzjtsv] has joined #lisp 06:29:37 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-rohchczcjotzjtsv] has quit [Changing host] 06:29:37 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:30:02 jjkola_work [c064748e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.116.142] has joined #lisp 06:33:21 Quadrescence: http://paste.lisp.org/+2QLH 06:33:42 Quadrescence: what word in "you can test it, you know" you don't understand? 06:34:26 pjb, I was clarifying like stassats asked. 06:34:54 -!- dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:35:15 dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:40:50 sunmix [~user@171.4.117.98] has joined #lisp 06:42:37 in CCL, in non-safe code it doesn't check for structure type, so it's as safe, but with safety 2, b-x is faster 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has joined #lisp 07:36:52 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-197.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:38:27 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 07:39:21 wildnux [~wildnux@pool-71-252-145-78.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:40:39 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-103-2.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:42:45 Quadrescence: sbcl with optimizations does a direct dereference: http://paste.lisp.org/display/127781#1 07:43:23 disassembling just #'a-x gives a much larger function; disassembling an actual usage tends to be more representative of what it can do 07:43:53 nitro_id_ [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:44:13 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 07:44:41 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-108-128.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:46:32 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-108-128.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 07:47:14 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] 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[~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-56.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:41:14 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-56.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:43:53 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:48:25 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@pool-71-252-145-78.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:50:33 wildnux [~wildnux@pool-71-252-145-78.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:54:22 loke: http://paste.lisp.org/display/127768#1 08:54:22 xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has joined #lisp 08:55:14 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:55:34 good morning 08:56:48 Good morning, mvilleneuve. 09:00:55 -!- xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:02:06 meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 09:03:53 momo__ [~momo@180.182.50.125] has joined #lisp 09:05:55 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.106.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:06:51 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.106.180] has joined #lisp 09:07:46 -!- karswell__ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:08:10 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:09:09 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:10:44 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-56.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:11:59 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-56.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:12:30 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:13:01 hello 09:15:49 hi 09:23:35 m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.152] has joined #lisp 09:24:32 cornpoop [~cornpoop@201.170.98.111.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:31 -!- cornpoop [~cornpoop@201.170.98.111.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has quit [K-Lined] 09:27:46 k-lined for real^ 09:27:56 -!- kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:28:08 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-bqmmejqucczaokrs] has joined #lisp 09:28:26 -!- momo__ [~momo@180.182.50.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:29:22 -!- lispyone [~lispyone@66.158.179.66] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:30:00 varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 09:32:21 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.23.125.15] has quit [Quit: tensorpudding] 09:34:22 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-56.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:37:59 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 09:38:33 tensorpudding [~michael@99.23.125.15] has joined #lisp 09:41:39 momo__ [~momo@211.237.42.253] has joined #lisp 09:42:26 -!- meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:42:31 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:42:50 -!- Dodek [dodek@nolajf.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:43:00 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:47:25 do we have any functions in CL standard to get keys of a hash-table? 09:47:54 osa1: no. but alexandria has hash-table-keys 09:48:27 H4ns: so alexandria implemented this functions for every CL implementation, right? 09:48:40 osa1: alexandria is written in portable cl, yes 09:50:29 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 09:50:42 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 09:55:22 osa1 it's trivial to do it portably. (let (keys) (maphash (lambda (key value) (push key keys)) *hash) keys) 09:55:46 kennyd: many functions in alexandria are trivial, which is kind of its point 09:56:11 kennyd: besides, your "trivial" solution produces a warning. 09:56:50 easily fixed. and my point was that standard already has means of iterating hash table portably 09:56:54 (loop for key being hash-key of collect key) or somesuch 09:56:59 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-rbptgznbnrqwrvqk] has joined #lisp 09:57:08 kennyd: yes. you did not get the point. 09:57:29 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-048-042.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:57:34 it seems you didn't get mine, it wasn't "don't use alexandria" 09:57:39 -!- xyxu1 [~xyxu@58.41.12.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:57:44 kennyd: what was it, then? 09:57:45 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:58:16 kennyd: i mean, the question was not "can i iterate a hash table" but "is there a standard method to get all keys", right? 09:58:34 dsp1 [~dsp@cowpig.ca] has joined #lisp 09:58:39 when he asked if alexandria implements it for every implementation it seemed he seemed under the impression that it can't be done portably 09:58:48 it seemed he was under the impression* 09:59:12 kennyd: ah. ok. 09:59:17 -!- leoncame` [~user@KD175129170046.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:04:19 silenius [~silenius@i59F7756B.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:05:22 -!- Vutral [~ss@2a01:198:35a::1] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:06:00 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 10:06:29 Vutral [~ss@2a01:198:35a::1] has joined #lisp 10:08:19 -!- asvil` [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:08:55 Patterngazer_ [~Patternga@globulon.pck.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:16 -!- Patterngazer_ [~Patternga@globulon.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:09:21 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has 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[~Beetny@ppp118-208-142-90.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:58:01 -!- benny [~benny@i577A2099.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:58:17 -!- JKiiski [~JKiiski@178.239.192.192] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:59:15 *chr* trying to match middot in a sed regexp 11:02:33 -!- kanru` [~user@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:02:34 kilon [~user@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 11:03:17 *chr* has set buffer-process-coding-system to utf-8 for input and iso-8859-1 for output 11:03:28 *chr* now has two problems 11:05:08 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:05:17 -!- silenius [~silenius@i59F7756B.versanet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:06:08 -!- kilon [~user@178.59.17.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:06:29 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.10.39] has joined #lisp 11:06:51 kilon [~user@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 11:07:45 -!- kilon [~user@178.59.17.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:08:08 kilon [~user@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 11:08:45 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 11:14:34 -!- Vutral [~ss@2a01:198:35a::1] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:14:44 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:15:08 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:15:32 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-56.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:16:44 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-56.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:18:30 Vutral [~ss@2a01:198:35a::1] has joined #lisp 11:18:50 -!- PfhatHome [PfhorSlaye@cpe-76-94-20-207.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 11:19:19 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:22:00 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #lisp 11:23:52 -!- 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[~mensch@c-174-62-210-182.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:45:13 -!- kai_ [~kai@e177089168.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:49:27 so im reading about how (set foo bar) will evaluate what foo is before assigning bar to it 11:49:58 im sure you can play some funky tricks with that, but my novice brain doesn't know where it'd be useful 11:50:14 quazimodo: it's less useful than you think 11:50:18 quazimodo: it doesn't assign bar to foo!!! 11:50:18 its *sorta* like a pointer,,, soooooorta? 11:50:32 quazimodo: you might as well use (setf symbol-value) 11:50:33 quazimodo: yes, symbols are sorta like pointers :-) 11:50:56 not used so frequently eh? 11:51:09 quazimodo: learn more. 11:51:16 pjb: k! 11:51:26 quazimodo: notably, learn about the notion of place. 11:51:39 ive read some gigamonkeys, atm im perusing through:::http://psg.com/~dlamkins/sl/chapter03-03.html 11:51:46 lisp does deal with references (like C) but you don't deal with dereferencing or taking addresses or anything like that 11:51:52 pjb: the notion of -place-.. got it :D 11:52:24 quazimodo: that chapter has the problem that it doesn't show conforming code. 11:52:42 quazimodo: the behavior of setq or setf on undefined variables is implementation dependant. 11:53:10 pjb: sbcl was complaining about undefined variables 11:53:19 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 11:53:19 quazimodo: most implementations will define automatically a special variable (which is a problem if you don't name your variables with *stars* around). Some will define a non-standard global lexical variable. 11:53:25 and yes, some complain. 11:53:58 is there an sbcl option to make it behave like clisp in this regard? 11:54:20 hrm i don't even know if lisp is dynamically scoped 11:54:36 quazimodo: you could write: (let (my-name a-variable) (setq my-name "David") (print my-name) (setq a-variable 57) (print a-variable)) 11:54:49 to make the examples conforming. 11:54:52 quazimodo: common lisp is both dynamically and lexically scoped 11:55:32 quazimodo: the alternative is to (defvar *my-name*) (defvar *a-variable*) (setq *my-name* "David") *my-name* (setq *a-variable* 57) *a-variable*. 11:56:29 spacebat: yeah its kinda weird to me, it kinda has to be dynamically scoped in a way (if im not mistaken) for things like (let ((a 3)) (func1 (func2 (func3 a)))) work, right? 11:56:37 quazimodo: notably, notice the difference between (defvar *var2*) (set '*var2* 42) *var2* and (let ((var3 33)) (set 'var3 42) var3) 11:56:50 defvar, defparameter, defconstant create dynamically scoped bindings 11:57:02 decaf [~mehmet@unaffiliated/decaf] has joined #lisp 11:57:07 quazimodo: wrong. For things like: (let ((a 3)) (func1 (func2 (func3 a)))) lexical scoping is enough. 11:57:21 Quadrescence: lexical = space; dynamic = time. 11:57:45 s/Quadrescence/quazimodo/ 11:58:20 quazimodo: in (let ((a 3)) (func1 (func2 (func3 a)))), the second A is in the parentheses of the LET form binding A (in that space), so lexical binding is all that is needed. 11:58:31 (of course, if A was special, you'd get dynamic binding). 11:58:43 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-afpiuabxypxajkrn] has left #lisp 11:58:49 pjb: my brain is trying to wrap around it, it's very different to all the stuff i've done before because to me im thinking how is func3 supposed to know what a is if its nested inside func 2 and so on ,with the a declared elsewhere. My mental model of what is going on is a bit broken still 11:59:11 quazimodo: function don't have to know their arguments! 11:59:28 quazimodo: functions need to know only their parameters. They don't care where the arguments came from. 11:59:37 quazimodo: the arguments are evaluated BEFORE the function is called. 11:59:57 quazimodo: the functions only see the VALUES returned by the EVALUATION of the arguments. 12:00:13 those values being bound to their parameters. 12:00:15 bring back fexprs! 12:00:16 i guess the a belongs to the scope of the let, everything inside it knows whats up 12:00:25 Regarding SET: the CLHS says that SET is deprecated 12:00:26 so then is it bad coding to modify a and pass it along? 12:00:37 quazimodo: yes, but func1 func2 and func3 are not defined inside the LET that binds A. 12:01:01 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-35-180.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:01:02 I wonder how long it will take before SET is removed 12:01:04 :P 12:01:10 quazimodo: you cannot modify a lexical variable outside of its lexical scope! 12:01:23 lol my brain melting 12:01:25 spacebat: when we define a new standard, in 2184. 12:01:37 im trying not to but the idiot keeps thinking back to c ! 12:01:57 quazimodo: this is exactly the same in C. You cannot modify a variable outside of its scope in C!!! 12:02:08 yeah thats my point! lol 12:02:27 void f(){int c=42; g(); } void g(){ /* try to modify c here!!! */ } 12:03:01 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.10.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:03:02 i guess what im saying is, if in main () i define a=3, then call foo() (and not pass a) then from within foo() i call bar () which does stuff using a, well it wont work 12:03:07 i'd have to pass a down by necessity 12:03:14 Yes. 12:03:22 so in this let code 12:03:32 void f(){int c=42; g(c); } void g(int k){ /* try to modify c here!!! */ } 12:03:41 my brain is thinking that im calling func1 wichi calls2 then 3 which uses a 12:03:50 kwmiebach_ [~kwmiebach@xdsl-87-79-87-117.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:03:54 ok let me read that 12:03:59 quazimodo: yes, you can use the VALUE of A. 12:04:31 void f(){int c=42; g(h(c)); } void g(int k){ /* try to modify c here!!! */ } int h(int m){ /* try to modify c here */ return(m); } 12:05:02 i have never had to do that, does that work? 12:05:12 That's the problem with programming languages like C. You believe you know the language, but you don't understand anything about it. 12:05:21 -!- tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:05:33 quazimodo: no, I told you you cannot modify a lexical variable outside of its lexical scope. 12:05:54 -!- osa1_ [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:06:04 osa1_ [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 12:06:06 ok so then func 3 2 nor 1 can actually modify a 12:06:09 but they can use it 12:06:14 tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 12:06:16 No. They cannot use A! 12:06:20 They can use the VALUE of A! 12:06:22 *Xach* holds head in hands 12:06:41 *flip214* avoid saying that passing a closure might be the right thing here 12:06:44 because it is evaluated before anything is actually done 12:06:44 *avoids 12:07:00 ok now i get it :D 12:07:03 quazimodo: because A is not even defined when the functions are defined! 12:07:18 -!- kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@xdsl-78-34-98-186.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:08:13 -!- osa1_ [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Client Quit] 12:08:21 osa1_ [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 12:08:44 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-56.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:08:46 -!- Karmaon [~john@gateway/tor-sasl/karmaon] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:09:35 -!- gko [~gko@110-26-120-223.adsl.fetnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:09:40 Now indeed, in C you can use a pointer to modify something that's outside of scope, and in Lisp you can use closures. Have a look at: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/2183b41e2a37c258?hl=en 12:09:54 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-56.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:11:21 -!- tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:11:48 tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 12:12:48 (let ((a 3)) (setq a (+ a 4)) a) < this returns 7 12:13:05 *let me try to figure this one out* 12:13:09 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:13:29 -!- osa1_ [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:13:40 osa1_ [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 12:17:36 it's like starting out with 3 then adding 4, 7 is not a surprise 12:18:02 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:18:15 -!- tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:18:50 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 12:19:26 tomodo: what im trying to understand is if no function can modify a because it is passed as an argument, then how does evaluating a return a 7 12:19:30 tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 12:19:55 quazimodo: setq is not a function 12:20:01 osa1__ [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 12:20:07 -!- osa1_ [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 12:21:25 quazimodo: and it's values that are passed around, not variables. you should probably make yourself familiar with the term "binding" 12:22:41 Karmaon [~john@gateway/tor-sasl/karmaon] has joined #lisp 12:23:24 jdz: sure i read that symbols are evaluated (except for special cases like setq) left to right before anything really happons 12:23:44 -!- osa1__ [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Client Quit] 12:23:53 osa1__ [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 12:23:58 quazimodo: not symbols, variables 12:24:00 in the case of (setq variable value), variable is not evaluated but value is 12:24:05 quazimodo: symbols are used to name variables 12:24:30 *quazimodo* 's head explodes 12:24:35 new language 12:24:36 haha 12:24:57 |nix| [~user@cpe-184-153-22-96.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:25:42 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:26:31 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #lisp 12:27:09 quazimodo: this might help http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 12:27:14 this other page i'm reading suggests that in cmucl the setq operation sets the variable to be dynamically scoped anyway 12:27:42 is that .. normal? 12:28:02 quazimodo: if cmucl doesn't complain and the variable isn't already bound, it will make a special variable; that is, dynamically bound 12:28:21 let will, if the variable isn't already bound, make a lexical variable 12:28:52 if the variable is already bound as a special/dynamic, then let just rebinds a new dynamic value 12:29:08 spacebat: binding and declaration are two things 12:29:13 yes 12:29:17 spacebat: you can have an unbound special variable 12:29:30 of course d'oh 12:29:45 -!- osa1__ [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 12:29:59 but the essence of the matter is, once a variable is special, let can't make it lexical 12:30:25 spacebat: right. once it is declared special, it is declared special :)( 12:30:51 true 12:31:19 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.3.40] has joined #lisp 12:31:50 -!- tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:32:11 -!- copec [~copec@64.244.102.130] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:32:12 -!- kwmiebach_ [~kwmiebach@xdsl-87-79-87-117.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:32:20 copec [~copec@64.244.102.130] has joined #lisp 12:32:32 tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 12:34:01 does this issue of scope mess with your actual coding? 12:34:26 does it cause difficulties, or do you get used to it quick and never really make errors regarding it 12:34:42 hkarlen` [~user@ip-85-197-171-11.c4stads.bikab.com] has joined #lisp 12:35:39 quazimodo: it is not confusing me. i'm following the convention of naming my special variables *like-this*, which helps keeping track of what is what 12:35:55 quazimodo: special variables are kind of like globals. not as bad, but to be used with caution. 12:36:01 H4ns: oh i have to apologise for being rude yesterday, im sorry 12:36:15 ok that makes sense 12:37:55 -!- hkarlen [~user@ip-85-197-171-11.c4stads.bikab.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:38:10 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 12:38:15 -!- decaf [~mehmet@unaffiliated/decaf] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:39:53 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-56.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:39:58 -!- tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:42:29 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-56.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:44:39 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 12:45:58 pnq [~nick@AC820CA3.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 12:46:47 tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 12:46:49 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:52:05 -!- momo__ [~momo@211.237.42.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:55:09 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 12:57:04 -!- tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:57:31 tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 12:59:11 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-56.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:59:46 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 13:00:23 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-56.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:02:53 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-56.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:04:04 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-56.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:04:49 ngz [~user@239.242.24.93.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 13:10:06 momo__ [~momo@211.237.42.253] has joined #lisp 13:10:16 (let ((a "this is a")) (setq b "this is b") (defun woot () (setf j "this is j") b) (values (woot) a b j)) < ok what the hell, why does the (values (woot) a b j) know what j is to then output it, shouldn't j be defined strictly inside woot?? 13:12:25 clearly i don't understand how setq/f work 13:13:03 -!- EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:14:04 any help for RCL? Unhandled memory fault at #x61D400000031. [Condition of type SB-SYS:MEMORY-FAULT-ERROR] and others 13:14:20 EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:32 quazimodo: setf is a macro. 13:17:56 quazimodo: since there is no definition for a variable named j, your implementation is free to do anything it wants. 13:18:43 if you want j to be local in woot function use let not setf 13:18:49 quazimodo: your code is not Common Lisp, it's some mumbo jumbo lisp that CL implementations are allowed to interpret, because the CL standard let them do implementation specific stuff so that the implementations that existed before Common Lisp could be called Common Lisp and everybody could be happy. 13:19:18 But this is not conforming code. In a different implementation, it can behave differently. 13:21:34 quazimodo: the scope rules are a powerful tool to make code understandable. 13:22:03 quazimodo: you only have to know whether you have a lexical variable or a special variable, to know whether a binding will be lexical or special. 13:22:25 Lexical binding is simple, since it give rise to lexical scope. 13:23:16 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-35.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:19 Dynamic binding is more complex, since its meaning depends on the time, on how you came to a given place. But dynamic binding is useful in some cases. Therefore we limited its use to those cases. 13:23:45 To distinguish special variables from others, we name them with stars. *a-special-variable* a-lexical-variable. 13:24:28 (defvar *a*) (defun f () (print *a*)) a call to (f) may be an error, or may produce some value, depending on where it's called from. 13:24:39 (defun g () (f)) ; we cannot say anything about the call to f 13:25:03 (defun h () (let ((*a* 42)) #| dynamic binding! |# (h))) (h) will print 42. 13:25:18 (defun h () (let ((*a* 42)) #| dynamic binding! |# (g))) (h) will print 42. 13:25:27 (let ((*a* 33)) (g)) ;; will print 33. 13:26:20 (f) prints 33 or 42 depending on when it is called. If it is called when (let ((*a* 33)) (g)) is evaluated, it prints 33. If it is called when (h) is called, then it prints 42. If it is called at another time, it may signal an error (unbound variable *a*). 13:26:23 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-56.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:26:47 dynamic binding is complicated like that. That's why we put stars around the special variables,to scare you away from them. 13:27:19 The shame in CL is that the only operators to define global variables are declare them as special variables. 13:27:51 But one can define an operator to define something like a global lexical variable in CL, using define-symbol-macro. 13:29:43 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@88-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:29:50 as a practical example of dynamic binding, (with-output-to-string (string-stream) (let ((*standard-output* string-stream)) (format t "hello"))) 13:29:58 pjb: hrm, setq and setf arent what i thought they were 13:29:59 this can also be shortened as (with-output-to-string (*standard-output*) (format t "hello")) 13:30:24 (format t will print to the string stream instead of the standard output 13:30:33 lemoinem [~swoog@205.233.82.132] has joined #lisp 13:31:07 also after the scope ends and string is returned original value of *standard-output* will be restored 13:31:58 I don't kind having all global variables be special. Global variable use should be as sparing as possible, anyway. 13:32:12 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-56.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:32:33 dlowe: i tended to avoid them like the plague in c and c++ 13:33:12 dlowe: though i value the concept of special variables different than that of global variables. special variables may allow you to configure things deeply, which would be messy otherwise. 13:35:31 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 13:36:36 frx [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has joined #lisp 13:37:55 -!- momo__ [~momo@211.237.42.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:38:32 hello. trivial problem, can I prevent ,sayonara SLIME command from asking me confirmation 13:39:10 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.152.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:40:12 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 13:41:31 I don't think I've ever been asked confirmation 13:42:45 odd, I always get it. "Buffer has a running process; kill it? (yes or no)" 13:42:50 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:44:27 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:44:32 re 13:44:50 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 13:44:59 ISF_ [~ivan@201.82.138.222] has joined #lisp 13:45:52 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-56.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:47:04 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-56.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:49:35 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.23.125.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:52:12 -!- pnq [~nick@AC820CA3.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:54:07 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-56.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:55:08 momo__ [~momo@211.237.42.253] has joined #lisp 13:55:16 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-56.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:55:58 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-58-169-44-238.lns3.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 13:55:59 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-58-169-44-238.lns3.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:56:00 hey, sort of a general question, what is internationalization of user-facing portions of lisp programs like? is there anything that can be used to systematically replace strings etc? 13:56:23 xxx_man [c1899cab@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.137.156.171] has joined #lisp 13:56:24 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-58-169-44-238.lns3.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 13:56:29 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-58-169-44-238.lns3.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:56:50 like the underscore macro that whatever that gnu project is uses in c programs 13:57:36 gettext 13:58:19 Unicode is still a bit newfangled for most lisps. 13:58:24 dto: i have no clue about usability of this, but: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-l10n/ 13:59:24 that underscore macro was pretty clever 14:00:16 icrazyhack [~horieyui@115.173.218.132] has joined #lisp 14:00:31 jdz: thanks, interesting. 14:00:48 -!- bandu [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Quit: Heaven isnt a place, Bartleby, it's being with people who love you.] 14:00:55 jdz: i want comprehensive online help in Blocky, but i also want the help stuff etc to be translatable 14:01:38 http://www.cliki.net/internationalization 14:02:17 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:03:22 Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:03:31 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 14:04:23 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:04:42 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 14:04:43 yeah, probably cl-gettext is more appropriate 14:04:49 -!- icrazyhack [~horieyui@115.173.218.132] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:04:53 jdz, frx: thanks. 14:05:09 icrazyhack [horieyui@115.173.218.132] has joined #lisp 14:05:15 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 14:06:02 i'm trying to make a lisp visual programming environment that can hopefully be widely used, and I figured I'd make it translatable from the ground up. for example the org-mode tutorial i wrote way back was translated eventually into 5 languages 14:06:33 dto: neat! 14:06:54 dto: btw, have you seen http://vimeo.com/36579366? i think it's just for you. 14:07:09 i mean it could be that it goes nowhere and no one wants to use it, but if they do use it, id rather have internationalization 14:07:43 hmm why is this made for me? i'll watch it in a minute or two, i need to make coffee. 14:08:00 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:08:04 dto: no hurry, it's almost 55 minutes :) 14:08:15 dto: but worth every single one of those 14:08:22 -!- ngz [~user@239.242.24.93.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:10:33 -!- icrazyhack [horieyui@115.173.218.132] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:10:46 icrazyhack [horieyui@115.173.218.132] has joined #lisp 14:11:41 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:11:54 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 14:12:00 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 14:12:08 this one looks interesting too. http://blog.viridian-project.de/cl-i18n/ 14:12:35 I did not use either that or cl-gettext though 14:13:03 _nix00 [~Adium@218.82.106.9] has joined #lisp 14:13:06 dto: what do you intend to build? I full user interface with editor and all that stuff? 14:13:12 -!- frx [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:13:31 frx [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has joined #lisp 14:13:43 loke: i have most of it now, although much work remains to be done. i want to do a release in q4 2012 14:14:14 dto: what is it based upon? 14:14:32 http://imgur.com/jimmF heres what my only (thus far) shipped gui app looks like (joystick config screen) 14:14:38 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.41.47.178.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:14:52 dto: hmm. what UI toolkit is that?\ 14:14:59 loke: mine :) 14:15:08 it's for my lispy visual programming language 14:15:09 dto: what does it use? 14:15:10 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:15:15 loke: opengl and sdl 14:15:20 dto: I see 14:15:28 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 14:15:49 loke: my engine at this point is about 9,500 lines of common lisp 14:16:06 https://github.com/dto/blocky 14:16:38 dto: nice :-) 14:17:43 why is an HTML file called blocky.svg? 14:17:49 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@218.82.106.9] has left #lisp 14:17:59 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-rbptgznbnrqwrvqk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:18:33 what i would like to do is start with a game making application akin to MIT Scratch , but a bit more industrial strength (opengl, diagrams compile mostly to machine code) 14:18:45 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:18:53 loke: that's somehow gotten garbagey. i'll remove that file, i don't know why i bothered checking it in. it was a logo 14:20:12 a lot of the game-making applications lock your work into a proprietary relationship with the tool vendor, you might have to pay them every year to keep releasing your own stuff yadda yadda 14:20:36 i want there to be a free-software option that is actually competitive, and if possible with Lisp, superior 14:21:10 -!- EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:21:11 loke: sorry if this is boring :) 14:21:56 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:22:01 however it IS on topic :) 14:22:37 i want to have a language whose user community actually posesses it 14:22:42 as their shared commons. 14:23:16 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.41.200] has joined #lisp 14:24:35 waterpie [~waterpie@athedsl-187756.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 14:25:15 dto do you plan to make this usable as a GUI library, or it's more geared toward game development? 14:25:15 EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 14:25:25 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-048-042.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:26:01 dto: are you going to have a different language layered on top of this for the game stuff, or will that be pure CL? 14:26:06 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.232.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:26:09 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Quit: Some days you're the pigeon, some days the statue...] 14:26:15 frx: both. 14:26:21 frx: i'll explain 14:27:09 -!- __main__ [~main@adsl-99-173-15-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:27:14 loke: a visual language with the toolkit from the pic 14:27:32 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-40-50.lns3.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 14:27:46 uh, first peek at this: http://blocky.io/design.html especially the part about pure data UI 14:27:55 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-40-50.lns3.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:27:59 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 14:29:13 in MIT Scratch there is a sharp division (literally a graphical line) between the "programming" area where you connect/edit logic blocks, and the gameplay area where the bricks make stuff happen 14:29:16 thanks I'll read it 14:29:35 so it's hard to have bricks that control bricks, or games with good UI 14:30:33 in Blocky all objects are game objects, everything can render itself to opengl, participate in collision detection, receive input events 14:31:01 there aren't two separate worlds. 14:31:18 dto: Isn't that how etoys works? 14:31:46 i'm not sure docAvid , i think so. i have more experience with scratch than with etoys 14:32:10 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 14:32:37 my ui framework is partially a clone of Squeak Morphic, i even have halos. here let me take a screenshot. 14:32:52 wooh, pictures \o/ 14:36:06 i'll need a few minutes 14:36:30 __main__ [~main@adsl-99-173-15-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:35 -!- frx [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:36:53 frx [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has joined #lisp 14:37:04 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:37:21 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-56.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:37:37 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-029-075.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:39 i actually might make a quick "lightning talk" video 14:38:01 woo 14:38:30 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-56.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:38:42 dto: if your previous code is telling, then your new framework should be comprehensible for newer lispers also. it could be interesting for users that want to create a user interface which runs on Any Platform (TM). 14:40:06 hello Xach 14:40:31 Xach: when you make a new QL release, do you go through all packages and get the latest version? Do you do it manually? 14:41:02 loke: yes, no 14:41:27 having played with squeak/etoys, blocky looks exciting... 14:41:29 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 14:41:30 Xach is an automization freak 14:41:31 osa1_ [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 14:41:43 I woudln't be able to do this without a lot of automation, and there's lots of room for more. 14:41:50 Xach: OK, because my latest version of cl-gdata depends on a fix that was pushed into Drakma yesterday, so can I assume that they will be updated together? 14:41:54 I've hit kind of a local maximum for the current design. 14:41:57 -!- osa1_ [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Client Quit] 14:41:58 Xach: it's a good thing 14:42:19 loke: Yes, however I get releases, not drakma from git. 14:42:26 ah 14:42:40 drakma release is currently out of sync with usocket release, unfortunately 14:42:41 Xach: OK, I won't push to code.google until that's fixed 14:42:57 Xach: or, perhaps I could make a "quicklisp" branch that you can pull from? 14:42:57 loke: well, it's no real trouble for me 14:43:05 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #lisp 14:43:13 dto: do you see blocky used by children like etoys? 14:43:16 I can use failure during the month to help people understand where things need to go 14:44:21 OK 14:44:34 davazp [~user@89.100.226.133] has joined #lisp 14:44:37 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:44:40 Xach: OK, I pushed 14:44:57 Xach: if you get an error about illegal argument to drakma, then you know why 14:44:58 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 14:46:17 dto: you write: "This correspondence between Blocky and Lisp is not exact." does that mean it is not like etoys where the blocks translate directly to (high-level) smalltalk code? does that mean you do not generate lisp code from the blocks? 14:46:36 *Xach* pulls all updates and tests everything with one form: (recrank) 14:46:54 Xach: want. 14:47:10 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:50:15 eMBee: one moment 14:51:12 Any project fails to build, I get the tail of the compilation log with: (failtail ') 14:51:19 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:51:20 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:51:22 eMBee: it's not a special goal of the language at all to be "usable by children" in any pre-approved sense of the word. the widget toolkit is flexible enough to make a guest environment for kids i'm sure 14:51:24 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:51:50 madnificent: i hope so! 14:51:51 And I can put the full failure logs up on dropbox with (share-failure ') and from there link to them from a bug report 14:51:51 Xach: do the projects have to use a particular framework? 14:51:59 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 14:52:00 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 14:52:06 j_king: no. i am not running test suites, just "does it build?" 14:52:14 Xach: ah. k. 14:52:16 Testing is underdone, but what little is done helps. 14:53:08 eMBee: i was trying to get across that simply visually editing ordinary lisp code would not likely be that interesting, which is why having a mirror-image textual api and a raw non-objects api are interesitng 14:53:24 I wish I had more tests, the drakma/usocket problem is embarrassing 14:53:25 eMBee: i want to generate machine code from block diagrams whenever possible. 14:53:46 Xach: what exactly is the problem there? 14:55:09 Xach: of course. tests + build reports + matrix of platforms and compilers = awesome smoke tests 14:55:10 H4ns: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues/268 - hmm, now that i reread it, it is not so bad. 14:55:19 Xach: if you'd have some sort of standards to which tests should adhere if the publishers of the library want them to be ran, then i'd guess many would start following that standard. 14:55:36 H4ns: i had the mistaken impression that it was a regression but it is not 14:55:41 i've been meaning to get around to the tests + matrix part if work wasn't getting into my free time 14:55:55 Xach: that was what i thought when i made the change 14:56:00 Maybe a less-than-best-possible-progression 14:56:26 ok, video time. back soon 14:56:29 Xach: at least it decoupled the drakma update from the usocket update, which will probably come soon (i hear) 14:56:31 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-35.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:56:38 H4ns: yes, that is what i hear too 14:57:56 -!- xxx_man [c1899cab@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.137.156.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:59:06 *Xach* has been punished for mocking SOAP last week, since he has to write some code to work with FedEx's API which is SOAP-only. 14:59:22 Poor man. 14:59:32 Xach: i pity you 14:59:43 condolences 15:00:10 The urge to write a Lisp WSDL compiler is strong. 15:00:54 perhaps cl-soap can be of some help? or is it too old? 15:00:58 decaf [~mehmet@unaffiliated/decaf] has joined #lisp 15:02:12 I can't shake the feeling that more or less all of the XML stuff is horribly overengineered. 15:03:09 despite the unfortunate choice of angle brackets, I don't actually think it was 15:03:18 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 15:03:19 Not XML itself. 15:03:19 it had a wide mandate 15:03:29 But all the stuff built _in_ XML? 15:03:33 oh, the stuff made with XML? totally. 15:03:33 Like, indeed, SOAP... 15:03:33 there are some xml languages that suck, but xml itself is pretty good. 15:03:47 -!- kilon [~user@178.59.17.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:03:49 Xach: I could have use for one 15:04:17 madnificent: CL-soap is broken and is pretty much useless 15:04:43 loke: ok, bad luck for xach 15:05:04 madnificent: he knew it already. I remember talking to him about it when I needed it 15:06:42 *Xach* has heard allegro's soap support is good 15:06:56 Xach: if soap 1.1 is all you need. 15:06:59 Allegro is not good for my wallet though. 15:07:30 buh. SOAP brings back a serious jag of PTSD. 15:08:35 -!- Vutral [~ss@2a01:198:35a::1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:09:00 Vutral [~ss@2a01:198:35a::1] has joined #lisp 15:09:00 loke: it makes sense. with some luck we'll have a new one soon. though i sure hope i won't have to use it. 15:10:56 spradnyesh [~pradyus@117.192.45.201] has joined #lisp 15:12:03 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.69] has joined #lisp 15:14:04 jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-121.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:14:11 churib [~churib@95.156.194.105] has joined #lisp 15:14:56 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.41.200] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:15:31 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@117.192.45.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:16:53 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.232.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 15:17:48 SOAP is frightening, but its applications that I have come across are less so (TR-69 etc) 15:18:22 dto: ok, that makes sense, there is no point translating from lisp code to blocks. but the other direction is interesting. 15:18:47 tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-28-218.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:08 eMBee: well, there are plenty of "fun" protocols around. I had the misfotune of working with SWIFT recently. 15:19:11 being able to see the code that is generated from the blocks, and even be able to change it (but not change back to blocks inthat case) 15:19:47 loke: it think you mean someone else? 15:19:56 yep 15:19:59 It was for cmm 15:20:25 since most real-world users of SOAP are not really expected to recognize any more than the other side is supposed to be able to generate, it's really not much complexity beyound your garden-variety XML parsing and generation 15:20:41 -!- prip [~foo@host179-124-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:20:49 *eMBee* admists that cm and em are visually similar ;-) 15:20:58 -!- rson [~randy@c-68-32-170-89.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:21:00 *eMBee* admits 15:22:10 oh, and the authors of SOAP-based-protocol-related specs definitely tend to crank up the XML-speak to the point of unbelievable thickness 15:22:36 xml-speak? 15:22:51 try reading some, you'll see what I mean 15:23:07 or better don't :) 15:23:10 *eMBee* would rather not 15:23:57 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 15:25:23 -!- pspace [~andrew@108-206-72-51.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:26:11 loke: aren't "fun" protocols older? SWIFT is an old protocol. Aren't newer protocols better designed? 15:26:16 *pjb* is optimist. 15:29:01 -!- Bucciarati [~buccia@www.inscatolati.net] has quit [Quit: rebooting] 15:29:06 v0yager [~v0yager@173-8-81-129-BusName-tn.chatta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:16 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-auenfxzchuprbayw] has joined #lisp 15:29:25 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:29:50 -!- davazp [~user@89.100.226.133] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:30:39 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 15:31:30 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:34:06 prip [~foo@host137-9-dynamic.7-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:36:53 pjb: Well... Not always 15:37:15 But yeah, SWIFT is old, of course. Not uncommon in banking 15:37:37 rson [~randy@c-68-32-170-89.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:58 -!- edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:39:39 pjb: But if you knew what kind of ad-hoc solutions happens in the banks, you'd be worried :-) 15:39:50 sezo [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 15:42:16 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.69] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 15:42:54 rootkit [~and@nat0.staffs.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:43:18 -!- rootkit [~and@nat0.staffs.ac.uk] has left #lisp 15:43:35 loke: I'm already worried when I see them use MS-Windows 15:44:00 pjb: If that's your only worry, then I'm happy for it 15:44:05 for you, i mean 15:44:41 pjb: what is that last character? some kind of unicode '!'? 15:44:47 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:44:49 I can't really talk about most of it, but there is a standard practice called SWIFT-matching for payments, have you heard of it? 15:44:56 *limetree* can't see it 15:45:07 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 15:45:16 limetree: it's a triple dot. like this "..." but using the correct character for it 15:45:27 limetree: on a Mac keyboard you get it by pressing Alt-. 15:45:28 kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@xdsl-87-79-87-117.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:45:30 oh 15:45:50 -!- sunmix [~user@171.4.117.98] has left #lisp 15:45:56 loke: "ellipsis" 15:46:31 sykopomp: yes 15:46:53 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 15:46:59 limetree: if you can't see that character, then your encoding is probably screwed up 15:47:04 limetree: make sure you're using UTF-8 15:47:29 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Client Quit] 15:48:36 benny [~benny@i577A749A.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:49:36 bjonnh [~bjonnh@147.210.71.83] has joined #lisp 15:49:54 loke: yep, it was my terminal. i see it now. 15:50:50 -!- hkarlen` [~user@ip-85-197-171-11.c4stads.bikab.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:50:54 By the way, I use this emacs command to substitute ... by  when I type three dots in a row: http://paste.lisp.org/+2QLL 15:51:19 pjb: you're using ERC? 15:51:33 Yes. 15:51:39 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@195.22.80.141] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 15:52:31 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:54:44 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:54:46 do you dedicate an emacs process to erc? 15:54:54 I do. 15:54:58 *nod* 15:55:05 Another to gnus, and another for developping. 15:55:07 Fade: is that a problem? 15:55:18 a problem? 15:55:36 pjb: same setup with me 15:55:37 i like to run emacs in daemon mode 15:55:39 Well, you say it in a way that would suggest that just because you have ERC running, you can't use it in any other way? 15:55:47 so for me it's not ideal 15:56:05 Fade: I don't use daemon mode. I just keep it running 15:56:12 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-auenfxzchuprbayw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:56:26 Well, erc could easily run with developping, it rarely locks up. gnus locks more often, when downloading news, etc. 15:56:33 well, i think you could use erc and other things, but I think you'd have periodic hangs as you typed. 15:56:42 i run emacs over screen on a server machine, for my erc needs. that works quite well, aside from the fact that disconnecting a graphical client (started through emacsclient) also makes the emacsserver crash. 15:56:43 Fade: I've never seen that 15:56:54 when I was a heavy gnus user, I saw it a lot. 15:57:01 Well yeah. Gnus does that 15:57:03 On problem I have with erc still unresolved is that sometimes it loses font-locking. I cannot get it back without rebooting emacs. 15:57:27 kilon [~kilon@ppp-94-64-178-93.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 15:57:28 Gnus will never be able to fix it until there is threading support in Emacs (never?) 15:57:40 ERC doesn't require heavy processing though, so no hanging needed 15:58:02 back when I was using ERC, I kept them separate not because of locking, but because I would nudge something in ERC one way and it would screw up all of emacs, and either crash or force me to restart. :\ 15:58:39 that would be worse than spasmodic hangs. 15:59:19 *sykopomp* started using weechat and hasn't looked back. 15:59:26 I'm not using ERC for the simple reason that even if I open a separate frame for it, once I start manipualting buffers it's way too easy to accidentally open the wrong thing in the wrong window and all gets screwed up 15:59:28 Fade: you can have more than one emacs daemon at time. 15:59:30 Yes, another advantage is that I have another slime and CL instance in erc emacs for the snippets I debug. 15:59:51 that's pretty neat. 16:00:04 I'm forever firing up repl's to test code from irc. 16:00:19 daimrod: indeed 16:00:42 at some point you have to ask how much complexity you're willing to live with, though. :) 16:00:48 I put some code up on lisppaste a while that defined an /eval command that would output to the current channel. 16:01:14 was useful in a dev channell or in PMs. It connected to a running SLIME connection. 16:01:18 rme [~rme@50.43.133.173] has joined #lisp 16:01:27 neat :) 16:01:50 /exec sbcl --eval ... 16:02:01 guess the startup time would be kind of a drag. 16:02:34 well, like I said, it connected to a running slime on the same image, so you could be developing something there, then demo the new results. 16:03:35 (+ 1 2) => 3 16:03:43 Works nicely. Thanks. 16:04:43 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 16:05:04 -!- Shaftoe [~Moe111@modemcable037.54-22-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: Shaftoe] 16:06:14 -!- decaf [~mehmet@unaffiliated/decaf] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:06:16 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:06:32 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@gray-51.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 16:06:32 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@gray-51.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has quit [Changing host] 16:06:32 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 16:07:22 solussd [~joe@rrcs-76-79-44-2.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:07:36 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:07:50 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 16:11:38 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:12:02 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has left #lisp 16:12:06 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 16:12:12 leoncamel [~user@KD175129170046.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:13:48 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 16:19:01 sloanr [~user@hobbes.space.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 16:19:42 meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 16:21:05 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:21:49 -!- kilon [~kilon@ppp-94-64-178-93.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:22:15 -!- Vutral [~ss@2a01:198:35a::1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:23:07 kilon [~kilon@ppp-94-64-178-93.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:23:34 Vutral [~ss@2a01:198:35a::1] has joined #lisp 16:23:35 -!- kilon [~kilon@ppp-94-64-178-93.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:30:28 -!- cnl [~cnl@95.106.111.171] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:30:36 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.25.123] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 16:32:49 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-117-44.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 16:35:14 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-35.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:37 xach and friends who were asking, I just recorded a new screencast and i'm just editing it down now. i'll link in a bit 16:36:07 some of the same material is covered from the first blocky lightning talk video, but some is nerw 16:36:09 new 16:36:35 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:44:57 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:45:21 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 16:46:01 -!- meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:46:45 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:47:55 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-241.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 16:49:57 meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 16:50:01 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has quit [Quit: Offline] 16:52:20 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@UV-DORM2-19-172.resnet.aug.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:52:36 Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@UV-DORM2-19-190.resnet.aug.edu] has joined #lisp 16:53:36 dto: faster, faster! 16:53:46 :) 16:53:48 a few minutes 16:57:31 -!- meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:57:39 wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:13 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.181.210] has joined #lisp 17:00:37 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:00:53 What happened to cl-gardeners? I'm reading the archive and it sounds cool but the last message was sent nearly 1 year ago. :( 17:00:57 -!- waterpie [~waterpie@athedsl-187756.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:01:19 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-029-075.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:02:03 daimrod: Enthusiastic amateurs with nothing concrete to do. 17:03:04 daimrod: it got merged with #lispcafe 17:04:02 daimrod: both channels had (have actually) too little traffic anyways. for varying levels of little. 17:04:24 it'll take a while to render madnificent. like 20 minutes 17:06:11 dto: it'd be nice if you'd shout my name or /msg me when it's up 17:06:21 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 17:07:03 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:07:28 -!- sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 17:07:47 madnificent: definitely 17:08:26 -!- sepuku [~sepuku@83.212.47.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:11:39 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 17:15:31 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 17:16:08 -!- JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:18:53 clintm [~cmoore@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:46 -!- Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:20:29 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-318562.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 17:22:17 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:22:41 -!- Patterngazer_ [~Patternga@globulon.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:23:52 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-241.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:26:36 Cosman246 [~user@D-69-91-136-58.dhcp4.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 17:27:48 jch [~jch@lanthane.pps.jussieu.fr] has joined #lisp 17:28:10 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-241.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 17:29:38 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-209.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:31:39 JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 17:32:04 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-318562.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:32:05 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-56.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:32:49 austinh [~austin@c-24-21-49-222.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:50 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:32:52 -!- drwho [~drwho@216-122-174-206.gci.net] has quit [Quit: bbl] 17:33:25 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-318562.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 17:33:37 madnificent: uploading 17:33:53 -!- jch [~jch@lanthane.pps.jussieu.fr] has left #lisp 17:34:25 -!- yeltzooo [~yeltzooo@ec2-50-18-131-205.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:35:26 madnificent, Xach: https://github.com/downloads/dto/blocky/blocky-lightning-talk-2-edit.ogv 17:35:40 again, some of the same material is covered because i lost the old video 17:35:45 yeltzooo [~yeltzooo@ec2-50-18-131-205.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 17:35:47 Here's an idea for a new Slime feature: http://vimeo.com/36579366 Check out the binary search example about 18 minutes in. 17:35:48 but theres new stuff. 17:38:00 dto: ty, will watch soon :D 17:40:57 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0.1/20120208060813]] 17:44:07 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-209.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:44:28 Cool dto 17:45:04 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 17:45:17 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-209.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:45:26 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@UV-DORM2-19-190.resnet.aug.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:45:34 leoncame` [~user@KD175129170046.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:46:47 maximus_ [~maximus@63-226-215-114.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:04 -!- icrazyhack [horieyui@115.173.218.132] has quit [Quit: http://www.cnblogs.com/crazyhack] 17:47:38 -!- leoncamel [~user@KD175129170046.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:47:44 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.181.210] has quit [Quit: Offline] 17:48:14 meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 17:48:42 dto: Nice 17:48:49 Qworkescence: https://github.com/downloads/dto/blocky/blocky-lightning-talk-2-edit.ogv 17:49:27 thanks docAvid and tomodo :) 17:49:36 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-35.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:50:48 -!- meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:53:04 meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 17:54:03 -!- meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:54:36 meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 17:54:55 -!- 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[~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 18:00:22 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-208-87.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:00:35 why is it when I do (print-object "foo" t) I get #<(SIMPLE-ARRAY CHARACTER (3)) {258D2C5F}> instead of "foo"? Is REPL not using print-object for display? 18:01:40 frx: Possibly because that is what the object is. 18:01:41 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-65-229-53.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:07 sigi-ntb [~sigi@host-85-27-110-224.brutele.be] has joined #lisp 18:02:11 yeah. what method is repl using then to display returned objects? 18:02:29 kilon_alios [~kilon@athedsl-386602.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 18:02:37 PRINT 18:02:38 frx: print-object is not designed to be called on objects printed by PRINT. 18:03:04 -!- meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:03:12 *Xach* was completely blind to -object and saw (print ...) multiple times 18:03:38 frx: I mean, you cannot call print-object yourself directly. You must call one of the CL functions such as PRINT or WRITE< and let them call print-object, if one such method is defined for the object to be printed. 18:03:39 -!- tessier [~treed@216.105.40.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:03:52 PRINT in your implementation may very well NOT call PRINT-OBJECT for strings. 18:04:07 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:04:16 tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 18:04:45 frx: besides, the print-object methods must respect various *print-* variables, perhaps you have *print-readably* nil? 18:05:02 yes it's nil 18:05:02 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:05:06 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.199.168] has joined #lisp 18:05:40 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:06:16 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-318562.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:06:34 same without it being T. anyway I was just curious why it did that, i expected it to print foo or "foo" 18:07:35 so I can't actually override print-object for built in types and expect it to just work 18:07:37 frx: again, implementation dependant! 18:07:55 PRINT is specified to print "foo", princ to print foo. PRINT-OBJECT is not even specified to have a method for strings! 18:08:15 And no, you cannot override PRINT-OBJECT for built-in types! 18:08:19 Check 11.1.2.1.2 18:08:30 vitka [~vitka@188.32.243.108] has joined #lisp 18:09:24 (point 19.) 18:10:16 yes i see 18:12:46 Patterngazer_ [~Patternga@globulon.pck.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:15 The only thing you can do with print-object, is define a method specialized on your own classes, so that you an use PRINT/PRINC, etc on your own instances. 18:13:39 (defmethod print-object ((object your-class) stream) <-- no specialization of stream! 18:13:43 yes I'm doing that 18:14:19 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:14:29 And personllay, I do so only for debugging/repl usage; for user level printing I define my own functions. 18:16:07 mintsoup [~mintsoup@173-164-33-21-colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:14 osa1 [~sinan@31.140.88.169] has joined #lisp 18:18:21 frx: what implementation do you use? 18:18:44 austinh: awesome video. :D 18:18:54 pjb sbcl 18:19:28 -!- sezo [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Quit: sezo] 18:19:50 yes. cmucl behaves similarly, it prints #. 18:20:57 Notice also that if you pass T for the symbol, there may be no method defined for symbols as stream, or nothing says that *standard-output* should be bound to a useful stream when print-object is called (ie. (format t ) may not work). 18:21:28 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:24:44 pspace [~andrew@69.54.63.217] has joined #lisp 18:27:11 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-241.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:27:39 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-bqmmejqucczaokrs] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:28:36 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 18:30:37 vantage|home [~vantage@109.131.148.239] has joined #lisp 18:31:45 -!- Cosman246 [~user@D-69-91-136-58.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:32:17 what about with other functions, can I always use T instead of *standard-output* ? 18:32:41 Only with FORMAT. 18:33:14 ok I figured 18:33:14 The other functiosn taking a stream designator interpret T as *terminal-io*. 18:33:24 ah 18:33:31 And print-object takes a STREAM, not a designator. 18:36:18 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-209.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:37:27 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-209.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:39:17 -!- BixSqrl [~Bix@c-50-131-212-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:39:18 Ralith [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:24 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:41:21 BixSqrl [~Bix@c-50-131-212-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:02 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.49] has joined #lisp 18:42:47 Dodek [am291698@duch.mimuw.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 18:42:52 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:00 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node183.html pretty helpful list of standard streams 18:47:35 -!- drdo [~drdo@drdo.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:47:48 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:48:44 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 18:49:03 cabaire [~nobody@p54940613.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:50:26 drdo [~drdo@drdo.eu] has joined #lisp 18:50:30 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.181.210] has quit [Quit: Offline] 18:50:47 Cosman246 [~user@D-69-91-136-58.dhcp4.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 18:51:26 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:51:31 tensorpudding [~michael@99.23.125.15] has joined #lisp 18:53:04 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:54:36 -!- sloanr [~user@hobbes.space.umn.edu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:55:41 *Xach* prefers http://l1sp.org/cl/21.1.2 18:55:54 *Xach* got a tweet back from mark kantrowitz, just as i feared, he is not hacking CL any more 18:56:06 -!- X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:56:41 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 18:56:43 my mk-defsystem patches are not gonna get applied :( 18:57:26 Xach: what is he hacking? Or has he just stopped hacking? 18:57:32 "Is that a menorah on your screen? Why do you have a menorah on your screen?" 18:57:35 thanks, clisp 18:57:54 sykopomp: you're working in a nazi environment? 18:58:11 pjb: nah 18:58:21 pers [~user@rrcs-50-74-164-130.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:58:24 it just seemed to cause unexpected confusion 18:58:33 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 18:58:55 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:17 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:23 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 18:59:37 -!- X-Scale is now known as Guest69735 19:00:18 Hello folks. 19:00:32 -!- Karmaon [~john@gateway/tor-sasl/karmaon] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:01:06 -!- saint_cypher [~rjspotter@c-76-126-70-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:01:10 -!- pers [~user@rrcs-50-74-164-130.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:01:54 sykopomp: I seen some post where someone wanted to produce a 'secular' version of clisp 19:02:01 Karmaon [~john@gateway/tor-sasl/karmaon] has joined #lisp 19:02:03 they removed the menorah code 19:02:24 goyishe programmers ... 19:02:30 clisp -q 19:02:32 not sure if he still does it 19:02:51 devoted secularists 19:04:01 pjb: he is hacking the U.S. student loan system now 19:04:08 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 19:04:15 http://www.finaid.org/about/ 19:05:14 I see no valid reason why it shouldn't be written in CL ;-) 19:06:46 ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has joined #lisp 19:07:28 Guthur: meh. Leave the damn menorah alone. :) 19:07:33 *sykopomp* was just pointing out something that had just happened. 19:08:08 -!- Ashii [~Ashii@c-0657e255.246-1-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:09:15 sykopomp: yeah, I just thought it was a nice bit of trivia 19:09:27 *Guthur* uses SBCL more or less exclusively 19:09:33 I'd probably use CCL as an alternative 19:09:42 what menorah? 19:09:54 *sykopomp* still uses clisp as his command-line calculator of choice. 19:10:04 ivan-kanis: google will answer pretty quick 19:10:08 and/or toy-with-some-lispy-thing-quick 19:10:25 -!- Guest69735 is now known as X-Scale 19:10:31 Guthur: fair enough 19:10:32 clisp is actually the only CL i can get at work 19:10:58 but considering the impossibility of actually getting and libs due to firewall restrictions it is pretty useless 19:11:01 and/any 19:11:11 -!- EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:11:25 Guthur: you could just drag around your ~/quicklisp 19:11:34 but yeah 19:11:38 come to think of it, why does clisp shows a menorah on startup? 19:11:46 It's in the faq 19:12:00 -!- ASau [~user@95-27-175-175.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:12:03 ivan-kanis: the authors are Jewish, obviously 19:12:03 ivan-kanis: because the author (who's non-Jew German) liked it. 19:12:10 Guthur: wrong! 19:12:13 Guthur: Obviously? 19:12:16 pjb: really 19:12:21 Really. 19:12:25 well I took a guess 19:12:25 strange 19:12:26 Read the FAQ! 19:12:45 pjb: I should have kept my mouth shut 19:12:46 http://clisp.org/impnotes/faq.html#faq-menorah-why 19:12:48 EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:56 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-241.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 19:13:05 ASau [~user@95-27-175-175.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 19:14:00 *sykopomp* wonders if anyone actually has contacted either of those two folks about it. 19:15:55 sepuku [~sepuku@83.212.45.206] has joined #lisp 19:16:18 OK I've read the faq 19:16:32 I would not be surprised at all if somebody patched the flying spaghetti monster in there 19:16:43 *ivan-kanis* feels enlightened 19:17:01 -!- bjonnh [~bjonnh@147.210.71.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:18:40 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:23:49 sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:34 -!- Cosman246 [~user@D-69-91-136-58.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:26:44 *savant_* wonders whether equating the BDS movement with nazism in the FAQ is helpful to anyone ... 19:26:58 Good night! 19:28:34 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 19:28:53 CampinSam [~CampinSam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:28:55 Ashii [~Ashii@c-0657e255.246-1-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:29:07 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has joined #lisp 19:29:08 *CampinSam* shuffles in. "Which is more like lisp, 19:29:12 Ruby, or Python? :D 19:30:32 CampinSam: Ruby 19:31:12 Mind explaining just a bit? ^.^ 19:31:15 No. 19:32:43 CampinSam: https://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.ruby/msg/56fce4adeaa79f68?hl=en&pli=1 19:32:58 -!- Ashii [~Ashii@c-0657e255.246-1-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:33:00 hmm... no gigamonkey. anyone know how toot's coming along? 19:33:29 *Xach* wonders if gigamonkey will go MIA into his new job 19:33:36 new job? 19:33:44 He just got hired at etsy 19:33:46 Ashii [~Ashii@c-0657e255.246-1-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:35:22 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-241.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:35:24 He'll be helping people hot glue their craft jewelry. 19:35:45 heh 19:36:21 :) 19:37:03 -!- drdo [~drdo@drdo.eu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:37:04 () earrings are going to be a hot item. 19:37:35 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has joined #lisp 19:37:57 drdo [~drdo@drdo.eu] has joined #lisp 19:39:53 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:40:02 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:40:20 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 19:40:37 -!- mensch [~mensch@c-174-62-210-182.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:41:40 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:42:15 -!- drdo [~drdo@drdo.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:43:37 -!- frx [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has quit [Quit: Chateando desde http://webchat.redmundial.org (Ping timeout)] 19:45:04 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-64-243.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:46:22 Xach: wasn't him a freelance programmer? 19:47:04 Xach: http://www.etsy.com/ 19:47:06 ? 19:48:40 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:49:10 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-156-206.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 19:49:37 rwiker [~rwiker@233.80-202-200.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:58:03 mensch [~mensch@c-174-62-210-182.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:23 *H4ns* detects the power of handler-bind and muffle-warning <3 20:02:04 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-209.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:02:24 -!- The_third_man [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:03:58 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:04:20 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 20:04:38 -!- clintm [~cmoore@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:06:05 -!- pspace [~andrew@69.54.63.217] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20:06:06 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-209.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:06:55 Sebboh [~hobbes@ip24-252-13-179.om.om.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:51 (type-of t) is boolean but I can't use boolean for :type parameter in defstruct, why? 20:08:07 acml [~user@217.131.98.94] has joined #lisp 20:08:10 -!- zophy [~zophy@host-5-150-220-24.midco.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:08:12 is it because nil is not boolean? 20:08:31 boolean ? 20:08:36 is that a type ? 20:09:02 homie: I don't know but (type-of t) returns boolean so I thought it should be a type 20:09:46 yes, but (type-of nil) returns null 20:11:01 osa1: that's odd. I don't know why you wouldn't be able to. 20:11:08 I assume gigamonkey is either working for a different esty or doing their web store 20:11:16 osa1: do you have test code for this issue? 20:11:26 but I've been wrong on obvious things already today 20:11:34 (describe 'boolean) returns , boolean is a type-specifier with empty lambda list and expansion (member t nil) 20:12:45 osa1: You can use booelan for a :type slot option. If you get an error, you might have the syntax wrong. 20:12:52 osa1: what syntax did you try? 20:13:11 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.69] has joined #lisp 20:13:27 Xach: right 20:13:35 sorry, it was my mistake 20:15:19 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:15:25 I suppose we can look forward to macrame and needlepoint editions of PCL? 20:15:34 -!- vitka [~vitka@188.32.243.108] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:15:37 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.235.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:17:28 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-108-81-168-225.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:18:22 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-121-214.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:20:36 -!- Harag [~phil@dsl-146-202-89.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:20:50 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:20:58 veelium [~user@80-121-16-164.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:22:08 doubtful 20:22:56 Curse you, Apress. 20:26:16 Fare [~Fare@74.125.59.116] has joined #lisp 20:27:04 H4ns: handler-bind + predicative types can be really useful :) 20:29:41 fe[nl]ix: in this case, it allowed me to print meaningful diagnostics without having to carry context information around. nice. 20:31:03 any user of delico around? 20:31:57 I don't understand how to use it. I expected (with-call/cc (let/cc k (kontinue k 1))) to return 1, instead it returns a closure. 20:32:21 wildnux [~wildnux@pool-71-252-145-78.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:01 Fare: have you tried to funcall it ? 20:33:12 funcall yields an error. 20:33:28 kontinue *looks* like it is what I need, but fails 20:33:49 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-121.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:33:54 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-154-37.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:06 Fare: it's probably a delimited continuation without unwinding. 20:34:34 pkhuong? what do you mean? how to use it instead? 20:34:58 Fare: a delimited continuation is a function: it actually computes a return value. 20:35:15 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.232.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:35:20 so I should (with-call/cc (funcall (let/cc k (kontinue k 1))) ? 20:35:32 no. 20:35:34 how many vector types do we have in common lisp? simple-vector etc. 20:35:47 I'm trying to write some generic functions dispatching on collection types 20:35:58 osa1 infinite surely 20:36:03 osa1: at least simple vectors, string, bit vectors and vectors of nil. 20:36:21 osa1: methods can specialize on classes but not types. 20:36:47 Xach: I thought every class is a type 20:37:01 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 20:37:03 Yes, but not vice versa. 20:37:05 Fare: if you want to think of it in terms of stack frames, a delimited continuation captures the frames from the mark (with-call/cc) up to the capture point (let/cc). 20:37:08 methods can specialize on *some* types, I think - but not the entire type tree 20:37:14 VECTOR is a system class but SIMPLE-ARRAY (e.g.) is a type but not a class. 20:37:17 rwiker: incorrect 20:37:17 Xach: ok, so do we have a function like type-of but for classes? 20:37:24 osa1: the obscurely-named class-of 20:38:26 Fare: regular continuations conflate the capture, and unwinding the stack. Delimited continuations let you unwind separately from invoking a continuation: the captured stack frames are copied on top of the stack. 20:38:42 so if you want to unwind, do so with throw or return-from. 20:38:48 I think I understand what this "call/cc" does (a shift/reset) -- but how do I use the continuation? 20:38:51 there might be an option to unwind while capturing. 20:39:07 Fare: you seem to be saying that kontinue works. 20:39:22 the DC you captured is (lambda (x) x)... 20:40:26 -!- ghoti- [4c1b035d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.27.3.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:40:54 -!- Patterngazer_ [~Patternga@globulon.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Quit: If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you] 20:41:41 -!- jjkola_work [c064748e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.116.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:42:26 Fare: I think you want kall, here. 20:42:35 I think that "call/cc" "works" (actually is reset), but somehow kontinue doesn't. Oh, kall. 20:42:47 yes, kall, not continue 20:42:53 kall does the shift. Thanks! 20:43:29 ghoti- [4c1b035d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.27.3.93] has joined #lisp 20:44:14 Fare: I really prefer having a couple macros around ANF (: 20:44:53 you write your code in ANF? 20:45:19 when I want DC? Sure; it's not that bad. 20:45:30 whoever puts that sb-ext in #+cmu parts ....... 20:46:04 kruft [~user@c-98-214-105-38.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:15 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:47:05 shall die a horrible death in the upanichads! 20:47:09 lol 20:47:29 saint_cypher [~rjspotter@208.178.63.106] has joined #lisp 20:47:58 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@109.131.148.239] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:49:00 Fare: ah, kall includes the trampoline stuff. 20:49:44 pkhuong: do you have an example ? 20:49:45 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-197.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:50:27 -!- veelium [~user@80-121-16-164.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:50:29 frx [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has joined #lisp 20:50:37 -!- osa1 [~sinan@31.140.88.169] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20:50:48 -!- kilon_alios [~kilon@athedsl-386602.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:51:50 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.152] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:51:59 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-386602.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 20:52:30 thekilon [~kilon@athedsl-386602.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 20:52:34 hello. how can i validate initarg in make-instance 'my-class ? 20:53:11 *sykopomp* wonders whata the various solutions for dealing with asynchronous events are. State machines, DCs, and CPS come to mind. 20:53:11 eh ? validate ? 20:53:13 frx: in initialize-instance? 20:53:13 fe[nl]ix: Joe Marshall & co's original paper on the trick. Matthew Swank and drewc lisppasted a lot of code (http://paste.lisp.org/display/77636 for instance). 20:53:20 sykopomp: threads. 20:53:27 pkhuong: without threads 20:53:44 'cause, like. No microthreads. 20:54:00 frx: with-slot ? 20:54:34 MOP and add a initarg-validation option 20:55:04 frx: The traditional way is with an initialize-instance auxiliary method. 20:55:48 or shared-initialize 20:56:31 for example say I want to ensure that passed integer is in within a certain range, (make-instance 'my-class :x 100). would initialize-instance be apropriate for that? 20:56:42 frx: sure. 20:57:05 wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:10 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@233.80-202-200.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 20:57:19 sykopomp: for IO bound stuff, recreating continuations by re-executing with a log of values obtained via IO also works (: 20:57:51 Or, (defun make-my-class ...). 20:58:04 frx: If you're just trying to catch a programmer errors, as opposed to checking user input, you could also use a type declaration, provided your Lisp checks them. 20:58:56 pkhuong: What do you mean? 20:59:05 or rather, I don't think I understood that. 20:59:06 drdo [~drdo@drdo.eu] has joined #lisp 20:59:20 drwho [~drwho@216-122-174-206.gci.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:30 sykopomp: ever read KMP's article about "lisp machine style rubout handling"? 20:59:39 hefner: I have not! 20:59:52 ...or maybe it isn't about that, but just mentions it. 21:00:11 http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/Ambitious.html ? 21:00:12 heh 21:00:38 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.23.125.15] has quit [Quit: tensorpudding] 21:00:40 sykopomp: it's obvious in retrospect, but kind of obscure. I tried to explain it in 21:01:32 and yes, it looks like the same trick as KMP's. 21:03:31 tensorpudding [~michael@99.23.125.15] has joined #lisp 21:04:08 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:04:23 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-108-81-168-225.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:29 pkhuong: I'll check this out, thanks! I've been playing around with event-based network I/O and I'm looking for an efficient+convenient way to handle input. 21:04:30 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 21:05:33 it's not efficient, but it's convenient. 21:05:42 hm. 21:05:53 -!- momo__ [~momo@211.237.42.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:06:12 I guess 'efficient' would be writing a state machine? 21:06:14 well... no. It has a different performance envelope than CPS or even ANF-converted code. 21:07:01 (does hand-coded CPS count as efficient, even? Like nodejs/javascript usually handle things?) 21:07:25 you're waiting for the network, seriously... 21:07:28 to validate initarg am I suppose to use :after or :before ? 21:07:38 when declaring initialize-instance 21:07:59 frx: :before is a good place. 21:08:31 frx: personally I think pkhuong suggestion of (defun make-my-class...) is a better approach 21:08:59 that way you can easily declare new distinct validation strategies 21:09:24 Guthur also suggested using the MOP, so is not to be trusted. 21:09:31 pkhuong: heh. That's true. I guess I don't really know how that factors in when we're talking about select() and company. 21:09:35 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@pool-71-252-145-78.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:10:15 Xach: MOP was a joke, and the initial suggest was pkhuong's I can take no credit 21:10:35 -!- Fare [~Fare@74.125.59.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:10:37 though it struck me as a good solution 21:11:40 Guthur: if you're going for abstraction of that, use ContextL ;) 21:11:40 -!- thekilon [~kilon@athedsl-386602.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:11:50 Guthur: please don't offer dipshit joke answers. 21:12:32 ... 21:14:04 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:15:19 frx: for what it's worth: using ContextL could make it cleaner to add the tests, but you likely don't want to get something implemented before learning yet another paradigm. I'd go for methods which you call on the given arguments (something like (valid-arg instance slot-name value)). 21:16:42 -!- ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:18:19 frx: s/don't// 21:19:06 madnificent: is there documentation for contextl 21:19:47 it seems that initialize-instance does what I want. although I'm not really sure what difference :after :before and neither makes in this case. they all seem to work 21:20:20 frx: :before is called before the instance is initialized and :after is called after. 21:20:24 Guthur: some, but it's sparse and seems to be outdated from time to time. though i did find some papers on it and they seem te explain the concepts behind it, but i haven't found a single place for all of them. 21:20:45 frx: you won't have access to the initialized slot values in the :before, for example. 21:21:50 Guthur: while i'm trying to grasp things, i'm writing down some possible design patterns to abstract later on. perhaps those could be of help too. pcos advises to read the test cases, but without documentation, i personally find that to be lacking. 21:21:55 You will have access to the initargs, though. 21:22:05 Fare [~Fare@74.125.59.116] has joined #lisp 21:22:37 madnificent: you should document your findings on the web somewhere 21:22:54 save me having to blindly poke at it 21:23:29 Guthur: i was thinking of making a repository on github containing the patterns (with accompanying org-mode document), would that be nane? 21:23:33 s/nane/sane/ 21:23:45 momo_ [~momo@218.79.206.149] has joined #lisp 21:24:06 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 21:24:14 sounds reasonable 21:24:55 I was going to try implementing initarg-validation for fun 21:25:29 but then the (defun make-my-class ...) example made me realise that is the sensible option, 21:25:47 I often wrap make-instance anyway 21:25:54 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:26:23 and so I kind of lost my enthusiasm to implement the MOP option 21:26:24 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 21:26:38 Guthur: doesn't work as well for classes that are meant to be extended. 21:26:45 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-119-246.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:03 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 21:27:25 pkhuong: true, good point 21:30:37 parabolize [~gyro@c-75-70-14-105.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:03 frx: does https://github.com/madnificent/cl-validations do what you want? 21:32:10 decaf [~mehmet@unaffiliated/decaf] has joined #lisp 21:32:17 -!- momo_ [~momo@218.79.206.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:32:46 -!- sigi-ntb [~sigi@host-85-27-110-224.brutele.be] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:32:48 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 21:33:51 spearalot [~spearalot@c83-248-111-48.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:34:07 -!- cabaire [~nobody@p54940613.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:35:25 -!- kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@xdsl-87-79-87-117.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:35:52 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-154-37.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:35:55 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.199.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:36:24 madnificent i'll check it out thanks 21:37:31 yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:37:37 -!- cmbntr_ [~cmbntr@slice.loopback.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:40:42 frx: i can't say that i really remember writing it, but the code looks simple enough. validations.lisp also contains an example. looks like i made it for validating stuff on the web. 21:41:14 -!- ASau [~user@95-27-175-175.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:43:01 ASau [~user@95-27-175-175.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 21:44:27 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-119-246.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 21:45:02 momo_ [~momo@218.81.68.171] has joined #lisp 21:45:36 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 21:46:41 lseek doesn't seem to extend the file when used with O_APPEND, is that a feature of Linux? 21:47:17 Seeking does not write any data. Write a byte and the file length will increase. 21:47:31 brown````: yes, i'm doing exactly that 21:48:08 Have you closed the file or called fflush? 21:48:17 i closed it 21:48:36 the data is written, but at the end of the existing file, not where i tell it to lseek 21:49:06 Wow, I would not expect that. 21:49:28 Nope, that's right. 21:49:30 and it works without 21:49:36 APPEND 21:50:02 From the open(2) manual page: Before each write(2), the file offset is positioned at the end of the file, as if with lseek(2). 21:50:28 Your seek off the end has not increased the size of the file. 21:51:11 well, that's either dumb or i don't get why they made it so 21:51:34 well, i'll use ftruncate instead then 21:51:35 From the lseek manual page: The lseek() function allows the file offset to be set beyond the end of the file (but this does not change the size of the file). 21:52:32 That sounds like the right thing to do. 21:52:51 well, i'm not expecting lseek to extend the file 21:53:15 waterpie [~waterpie@athedsl-321098.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 21:53:21 -!- momo_ [~momo@218.81.68.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:53:31 but i'm not expecting it to call lseek to the end each time before write either 21:54:02 where's my unix haters handbook? 21:55:14 DataLinkDroid [~David@CPE-124-179-25-31.lns6.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 21:55:17 and in case anyone was wondering how that all is related to lisp, (defun scale-file (stream size) (file-position stream (1- size)) (write-byte 0 stream) (finish-output stream)) stopped working for me with :if-exists :create on SBCL 21:55:58 -!- yroeht [~yroeht@x.yroeht.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:57:58 yroeht [~yroeht@x.yroeht.eu] has joined #lisp 21:58:47 setting lseek to the end of file for each write only if the current position is less than the end of file would make much more sense 22:00:43 wildnux [~wildnux@cpe-76-183-81-208.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:01:12 stassats: nope. O_APPEND means append-only and was made explicitly for log files 22:02:13 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@c83-248-111-48.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 22:02:27 well, i'm now a happy sb-posix:ftruncate user, although it's not standard 22:02:41 in what way not standard ? 22:02:52 fe[nl]ix: CL 22:03:29 however, all other implementations do extend the file (well, except clisp, it just signals an error, but i wouldn't expect anything else from clisp) 22:03:43 stassats: extending a file by lseek and write is by no means "standard" either. 22:04:18 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:04:41 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 22:04:42 H4ns: i don't really care about lseek, rather about FILE-POSITION 22:04:46 nepnux [~wildnux@cpe-76-183-81-208.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:04:46 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-108-128.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:01 stassats: right. that is what i'm saying. 22:05:28 momo_ [~momo@218.79.205.144] has joined #lisp 22:06:05 well, all other implementation do what i expect 22:06:24 i don't much care about de jure standards either 22:07:17 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@cpe-76-183-81-208.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:09:38 HG` [~HG@dsbg-4db5767b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 22:12:13 -!- Arrdem [~reid@resnet-46-120.dorm.utexas.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:12:51 -!- momo_ [~momo@218.79.205.144] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:22:37 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-209.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:23:50 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-209.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:25:39 momo_ [~momo@218.81.68.152] has joined #lisp 22:31:35 rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:32:19 -!- acml [~user@217.131.98.94] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:32:46 -!- momo_ [~momo@218.81.68.152] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:33:02 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 22:33:43 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.199.168] has joined #lisp 22:34:14 -!- HG` [~HG@dsbg-4db5767b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:38:37 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.199.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:42:34 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:43:19 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:43:34 -!- Vutral [~ss@2a01:198:35a::1] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:43:55 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 22:44:33 momo_ [~momo@218.79.246.82] has joined #lisp 22:44:37 Vutral [~ss@2a01:198:35a::1] has joined #lisp 22:45:08 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-35.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:45:10 zerd [~zerd@212.117.165.85] has joined #lisp 22:46:46 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:46:48 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 22:48:44 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:51:39 cmbntr [~cmbntr@slice.loopback.ch] has joined #lisp 22:52:08 -!- momo_ [~momo@218.79.246.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:53:46 dto: that lightning talk was very promising 22:53:52 congrats 22:54:13 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:55:49 Huh... Am I missing something? Is there an obvious way to copy a CLOS object? 22:56:39 -!- [SLB] [~balthasar@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: [ Close the World, Open the nExt ]] 22:57:18 pnq [~nick@AC816F7D.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:43 docAvid: nope. 22:57:44 docAvid: not afaik, you can try to recursively copy the slots. but it's not exactly a cool thing to do. an example of how to do that is in is-right 22:58:23 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-209.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:59:10 ha i will recall this whenever people are interrogating me why i did not use clos 22:59:27 madnificent: thanks :) 22:59:32 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-209.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:00:35 dto: that's not a very good reason, you know 23:01:03 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:02:22 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129230077.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 23:04:28 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:04:28 it's a terrible reason, really. 23:04:29 momo_ [~momo@218.81.68.120] has joined #lisp 23:04:30 *madnificent* likes the fact that lisp doesn't to limit me to clos 23:04:49 i like the fact the lisp doesn't limit clos for me 23:04:51 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 23:04:57 stassats: that too 23:05:24 madnificent and stassats: Seconded to both versions :) 23:06:42 -!- solussd [~joe@rrcs-76-79-44-2.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: solussd] 23:06:42 -!- solussd_ is now known as solussd 23:06:47 Arrdem [~reid@wireless-128-62-49-137.public.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 23:09:12 -!- frx [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:10:13 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #lisp 23:11:20 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:15:39 clos seemed nightmarish to serialize, probably for the same reasons you can't copy objects simply 23:15:40 -!- momo_ [~momo@218.81.68.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:15:50 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:15:57 its the serializaion that made me abandon clos 23:15:59 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 23:16:06 dto: eh? fasls serialize CLOS values all the time. 23:16:30 clos is really easy to serialize 23:16:55 structures, not so easy 23:17:09 pkhuong: are fasls designed for routine sharing of objects between two users of a program 23:17:14 on different platforms 23:17:26 stassats: can you elaborate? 23:17:36 ah, portability. 23:17:43 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:17:47 hefner: no introspection api 23:17:49 dto: no, but the hooks they use are exposed. 23:17:50 right. 23:18:12 pkhuong: exposed in ANSI spec or AMOP 23:18:14 basically, everything is trivially serialized, except for structures, functions and streams 23:18:17 dto: spec. 23:18:30 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:18:33 well i found it a pain anyway and decided not to use it. 23:18:49 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 23:18:50 there seemed no way to say "for each slot in such and such object, do X" 23:18:54 you could argue that they're hard to serialize portably. 23:19:01 dto: simple MOP. 23:19:04 dto: is-right contains equality under eval to some extent. it uses the mop for that. but it might be nicer if it'd be simpler, maybe. or at least in a separate library. 23:19:08 on a small scale, structures are much easier than CLOS, because you can print and read them. :) 23:19:38 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:20:38 dto: every implementation worth using supports closer-mop 23:20:54 i have another question about something i found near impossible 23:20:55 brb 23:22:05 -!- Arrdem [~reid@wireless-128-62-49-137.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:23:49 -!- decaf [~mehmet@unaffiliated/decaf] has quit [Quit: decaf] 23:23:53 stassats: shouldn't it be the other way around? > "closer-mop supports every implementation worth using" 23:24:07 madnificent: not really 23:26:40 my reasoning is: closer-mop provides the mapping that removes the oddities of the implementations. i don't know of any implementation that supports closer-mop itself directly (as in: it provides the library closer-mop). 23:26:52 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.106.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:27:04 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-209.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:27:13 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-386602.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:28:15 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-209.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:28:22 momo_ [~momo@218.79.245.163] has joined #lisp 23:29:21 the oddities should be malleable 23:30:14 I wonder if it's reasonable to feel that, if CL implementers were doing what they should, closer-mop would be a NOP on all but a few lunatic fringe CLs 23:30:30 hefner: same here. 23:31:04 hefner: it's a NOP on SBCL 23:31:52 (you may write off all other implementations as lunatic) 23:32:01 i wanted to print large aggregates of objects to text files. doing it myself was simple and has worked for a long time, and i am less likely to find in future that closer-mop doesn't support some x or y or z compiler that is the only one that works on some device 23:32:28 stassats: I usually do. :) 23:32:46 'all'? 23:32:56 dto: you shouldn't care about brain-damaged implementations 23:33:07 Odin-: for clisp it's a no-op too 23:33:18 but clisp is lunatic in other regards 23:34:17 hefner: CCL's CLOS is pre-AMOP, I believe. Were it written today, closer-mop would probably be a NOP. 23:34:24 dto: you can go pretty far with make-load-form. 23:35:00 also, the fields are the data i wish to iterate over. going into MOP in hopes of this conceptually quite basic task seemed wrong. it has the same feeling of "why didn't i use CLIM". no amount of "it's hard to make it do what i want" helps 23:35:19 pkhuong: anyway it will be easy to re-port my stuff on top of clos if what you are saying is true. maybe i will get a performance speedup. 23:35:27 dto: you're not making much sense, frankly 23:36:03 *sellout* is still waiting for define-method-combination to work on ECL. 23:36:06 dto: there's also cl-marshal 23:36:24 Arrdem [~reid@wireless-128-62-49-137.public.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 23:36:27 dto: *which doesn't seem to use the mop 23:36:57 -!- Fare [~Fare@74.125.59.116] has left #lisp 23:37:15 -!- momo_ [~momo@218.79.245.163] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:37:23 madnificent: and thus doesn't work with standard-objects 23:38:54 stassats: iterating over the fields in my objects is trivial because i wrote a very small piece of code that makes my objects behave like that. doing the same thing in CLOS seems to require some other library. is that correct or not? 23:39:00 well, it supports them by specifying which slots to save manually, which isn't that great 23:39:42 stassats: it supports everything in that way 23:39:44 dto: do you have any aversions to external libraries? 23:40:15 stassats: no./ 23:41:08 -!- Arrdem [~reid@wireless-128-62-49-137.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:41:15 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has joined #lisp 23:41:21 dto: well, then iterating over slots of an object is trivial while using a closer-mop compatibility layer and it works on all implementations 23:41:29 Arrdem [~reid@wireless-128-62-49-137.public.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 23:41:57 *hefner* wouldn't be comfortable with that approach either. 23:42:04 -!- Arrdem [~reid@wireless-128-62-49-137.public.utexas.edu] has left #lisp 23:42:48 more so, there are numerous persistent layers already available, like cl-store or rucksack 23:42:51 stassats: i can look into the closer-mop compatibility later at some point if i want to user closer-mop compatibility to do what i am doing instead of using the code that already does it. ok? 23:42:56 *madnificent* understands not wanting to require closer-mop. it's *not* standard. 23:43:07 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:43:47 AMOP is pretty standard 23:43:53 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-35.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 23:44:00 it's not CLHS standard 23:44:13 make that ANSI standard 23:44:26 madnificent: and what does that imply? 23:45:01 when I put on my lunatic fringe hat, I tend to think "I'm never going to use any of this MOP nonsense, and I wish it weren't around bloating up my imagine and probably making all my CLOS code slower." 23:45:03 that a conforming implementation may not support it, regardless of how insane you might find those implementations to be. 23:45:04 Standards are great. So many to choose from. 23:45:06 nothing. It's a 'de facto' standard 23:45:08 s/imagine/image/ 23:45:32 -!- mintsoup [~mintsoup@173-164-33-21-colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:45:32 It's a de facto standard. Kind of like gray streams. 23:45:36 The ANSI standard really could do with some updating. 23:45:49 But that's not very likely to happen. 23:45:57 Unfortunately, IMO. 23:46:03 hefner: sounds like structures 23:47:38 stassats: you can be very happy with just structures and generic functions, but while wearing the same lunatic fringe hat, I've happily defined lots of classes with mixins and multiple inheritance. 23:49:43 Odin-: fortunately, the ANSI standard doesn't say "you may not use any non-standard feature", so it's not as important to have it updated 23:49:50 I should probably reread AMOP, and see if it shines the light of reason into my head. 23:50:14 momo_ [~momo@218.79.241.178] has joined #lisp 23:50:44 hefner: amop doesn't explicit how clos can be made fast IIRC 23:51:53 stassats: Apart from the "it's not standard" argument for not using de facto standards. It's not a technical issue, it's a social one. :p 23:52:14 Odin-: that's a stupid argument 23:53:21 stassats: I agree, but people still use it. 23:53:58 the better one would be "some implementers are stubborn and are not willing to cooperate" 23:54:13 stassats: though some formalised versioned community-endorsed additions to the ANSI standard could be nice. that would explicit the defacto standards, like closer-mop and gray-streams 23:54:18 TBH, one of the things I'd nominate for inclusion in an updated standard would be quicklisp, which would make it significantly easier to deal with this sort of crap. :) 23:54:22 Odin-: then i won't listen to them 23:54:57 Odin-: i don't see how quicklisp fits into a standard at all 23:55:16 asdf could be included though 23:55:26 Or something somewhat similar. 23:56:14 the reason while CL standard works so well after 20 years is because it doesn't include such things 23:56:29 Define 'such things'. 23:56:32 what would be gained by putting something like quicklisp in the standard 23:56:35 Odin-: quicklisp, asdf 23:56:43 it works super fine as a standalone 23:57:22 isn't quicklisp going to be integrated into sbcl? 23:57:26 i thought i recalled reading that 23:57:39 And is fast becoming a de facto standard at that. 23:57:44 tensorpudding: i very much doubt that 23:58:09 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:01 Odin-: it doesn't have very much to do with the language itself. 23:59:01 Which is ... an interesting situation, because it basically means that all you have to say to people is "install quicklisp, and then do this" to get all sorts of compatibility layers and de facto standard libraries and things. 23:59:03 quicklisp and ASDF are better as "de facto" rather than "de jure" standards 23:59:03 why? 23:59:07 code distribution seems to be orthogonal to language design and features. 23:59:13 ^ 23:59:17 a standard is not "hey, let's create a mess by putting every imaginable thing into standard which will be obsolete in a year or so" 23:59:25 p_l: Okay, I'll buy that. 23:59:48 That isn't to say that implementations shouldn't bundle those things 23:59:55 asdf is widely bundled