00:00:26 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@79.Red-88-7-134.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 00:00:58 madnificent: lockf has some dependance on filesystem implementing apropriate file locking behaviours, I think 00:01:28 I know that some filesystems in linux have mount options to select whether posix locks are mandatory or not 00:01:41 or rather, whether they are enforced 00:02:03 I/O on locked areas in such cases should return EACCESS, I think 00:07:28 Bacteria [~Bacteria@dyn-49-127-1-99.its.monash.edu.au] has joined #lisp 00:07:35 how do you call a less specific method 00:07:47 in type terms 00:08:39 :around ? 00:09:28 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 00:09:47 for what I know :around should execute the given code before and after the method, it shouldn't affect it's specificity 00:09:52 i think it is call-next-method I want 00:10:20 neither that one I think... 00:10:21 let me check 00:10:44 first before then after then around.... 00:12:43 around is a before and after for reinitialization only i think 00:12:58 initially it is the last afaik 00:13:17 correct me if i'm wrong.... 00:13:46 and you can't be sure of the call order.... 00:15:07 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 00:15:14 wbooze: what do you mean you can't be sure of the call order? 00:15:54 wbooze: the call order is explicitly defined in the spec. 00:15:55 Guthur: errata corrige: it should be call-next-method as you say 00:16:11 And :around methods wrap everything including :before and :after. 00:17:51 -!- NihilistDandy [~NihilistD@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 00:18:19 ok 00:21:41 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-152-178.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:22:55 I just wrote a lisp memcpy. I think that makes me a bad person. 00:23:18 what does that even mean 00:23:38 heh 00:23:46 yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:24:00 nothing really :) 00:26:21 So if you serve a web page such that large parts of its content are rendered by javascript on the page requesting data from the server and turning it into HTML, that content is mostly invisible to search engines, right? 00:31:04 gigamonkey: yes 00:31:09 gigamonkey: there is a way in which you can make it available though 00:31:25 gigamonkey: http://code.google.com/web/ajaxcrawling/docs/specification.html 00:31:28 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 00:31:40 what Xach said :-) 00:32:02 Bah, how do I tell emacs to change it's notion of the current directory of my erc buffer? 00:32:20 M-x cd 00:32:28 thanks. 00:32:56 for some reason my erc buffer thought CWD directory was one that no longer existed and that somehow broke M-x browse-url. 00:33:43 Right, so that hash foo. But if the whole point of rendering stuff with Javascript is to avoid having to implement the HTML generation on the server side, that's not really any help. 00:33:54 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:34:11 Is that the whole point? 00:34:19 Because I still have to be able to render it on the server side in order to serve up the ugly url. 00:34:21 It is for me! 00:34:22 gigamonkey: the html rendering can be very simplistic though. It's only ever seen by the search engine 00:35:01 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:35:14 gigamonkey: think of the blind! 00:35:42 -!- jt123 [~jayan@cpc4-lutn3-0-0-cust768.9-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: jt123] 00:37:03 gigamonkey: the main point is being able to modify only parts of a page without reloading it entirely, i.e. better click latency 00:37:31 how to do that is entirely up to the developer 00:37:46 pkhuong: what do the blind use these days? I'd imagine that they'd need a browser that groks javascript and then reads stuff. 00:37:56 fe[nl]ix: yeah, that's another advantage. 00:38:19 Well, eLinks does grok Javascript 00:38:29 gigamonkey: regulations seem to think they use something like lynx or w3m. 00:38:57 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.3.132] has joined #lisp 00:39:23 -!- SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:40:22 pkhuong: https://twitter.com/#!/NeckbeardHacker/status/131786648252973056 00:42:04 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:43:00 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 00:43:08 Lynx doesn't render anything even remotely decent 00:43:12 Links, however, does 00:44:08 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-114-13.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:44:09 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-147-204-196.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:44:58 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:44:58 gmail looks pretyu goon in links to me 00:45:49 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-152-178.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:46:06 probably more readable too 00:46:13 Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:10 tiglog [~tiglog@61.149.225.12] has joined #lisp 00:49:15 Hmm, I can't say I like the neckbear hacker twitters so much, but this one was hillarious: "Seriously though, someone tried to tell me last week that "JavaScript is a Lisp." Also, Babylon 5 was a Star Trek." 00:49:47 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-44-105.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 00:49:53 Guthur [~user@host86-147-204-196.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:50:50 loke: also this one https://twitter.com/#!/NeckbeardHacker/status/128663887674474496 00:51:10 gigamonkey: I don't get that one... 00:51:47 (I never use twitter, so please tell me. Do people like the user interface? I can't even figure out how to get the permlink to a specific twitter message) 00:51:47 shouldn't that be "Scheme :: Closure Krav Maga :: Tae Bo"? 00:51:51 erm, clojure 00:53:49 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:54:27 -!- naryl [~weechat@188.134.95.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:54:40 What is krav maga? 00:55:36 loke: a crazy Israeli Martial Art, heavy on actual martial application. 00:56:20 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 00:56:36 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:56:42 Phoodus: yeah, probably. 00:57:20 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:42 gigamonkey: Oh... 00:58:04 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:59:12 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 00:59:39 loke: permalink is currently named "details" 01:00:13 what. 01:00:46 kpreid: Am I dense? I actually can't see anything labelled "details" 01:01:00 loke: well, what kind of page are you currently looking at? 01:01:18 https://twitter.com/NeckbeardHacker 01:01:36 loke: krav maga actually uses guns, not just flippy kicks 01:01:40 ah. you have to mouseover and click "open" first. hooray! 01:04:33 -!- marsell [~marsell@120.18.244.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:04:39 https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/deD76HkV5yAecetXRhjoWQTh8X6_ermhX56DbHFUs8E?feat=directlink 01:04:59 kpreid: I don't have any open link either. Screenshot in the link above 01:05:06 ok, you have a different view than i do. probly because I have an account. 01:05:22 I say again: hooray. 01:05:22 WTF? 01:05:41 tell me again, why do people use twitter? 01:05:50 Check if that '27 Oct' is a link. 01:06:13 Yay! 01:06:21 thanks kpreid 01:06:22 is that like "i'm just farting yet" 01:06:22 :-) 01:06:56 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.89.59] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:06:59 Actually, Google+ has the same stupidity. THeir permlinks are also the date 01:07:12 nope "i'm in the bath and scrubbing the hell of my skull" 01:07:15 gigamonkey: why don't you want to bother the server with the html generation? in clayworks i built something that basically compiled all static html at compilation time by using compilermacro-functions 01:07:17 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.67.21] has joined #lisp 01:07:30 or something along those lines ..... 01:07:36 meh, twitter...... 01:08:24 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:44 loke: permalink as date is pretty common actually 01:08:46 with that respect: is there a library which parses a DTD and then publishes a set of functions corresponding to each of the elements of the DTD? i was shortly thinking of writing something of the likes to make writing HTML easier (i'm quite fond of the syntax i have, yet it would be nice if the system could read a dtd and inform me better of my options). 01:09:19 dtd, wtf ?! 01:09:26 what's that now ? 01:09:44 abbrev for ? 01:10:14 naryl [~weechat@188.134.95.93] has joined #lisp 01:10:34 Data Type Definition, or something like that. 01:10:48 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:11:51 Document Type Definition, methinks 01:12:06 wbooze: it describes what xml tags can be used and what their attributes may be 01:12:17 oh 01:12:32 so it's ontop of xml then ? 01:12:33 or perhaps the last D means "Description"? 01:12:39 no, it's in the xml spec 01:12:47 Document Type Definition 01:12:48 ah 01:12:58 SGML also has DTDs, so they're older than xml 01:13:16 Hasn't DTD been superceeded by document schema though? 01:13:27 wbooze: my interest in it is actually mostly there because html5 doesn't play nice with names (especially not with the allowed extensions) and because things like svg are a plain ass to translate. they do /not/ have naming conventions for their attributes anymore (so capitalization is an ass). 01:13:55 loke: by that XML thing that H4ns probably knows more about but which is far more complex :) 01:14:13 in fact, html5 can't be described by a dtd, yet still something of the likes will pop up i guess. 01:14:42 madnificent: of course not. Html is not XML 01:14:59 loke: xhtml5 isn't possible either 01:15:02 As far as I know, XHTML5 is a plain XML-mapping of HTML 01:15:23 loke: they have allowed people to extend the allowed attributes by anything with a prefix data- or something of the likes. 01:15:23 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-35.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 01:16:25 so more importantly: does anything of the likes currently exist that anyone knows of? 01:16:42 _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.126.178] has joined #lisp 01:16:48 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:17:01 -!- Kryztof [~user@AMontsouris-551-1-12-62.w90-24.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:19:08 -!- Guest14989 is now known as X-Scale 01:23:38 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:24:04 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-147-204-196.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:26:49 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:28:32 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 01:36:14 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:36:45 Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:37:02 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 01:42:55 SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:23 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:11:59 -!- djuber [~user@c-76-16-60-176.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:15:20 kanru` [~user@218-167-101-92.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:16:20 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 02:20:41 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.213.110] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:21:18 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-139-212.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:44 -!- hypercube32 [~hypercube@246.111.188.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:22:49 -!- nha_ [~prefect@p3E9E5BC2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:23:29 What does &allow-other-keys mean in a values type specifier? 02:24:02 Bike: same thing as a function argument list type. 02:25:12 thanks. 02:25:41 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 02:25:56 Bike: values types are defined in terms of functions that accept them. 02:26:39 Yeah, I think I get it now, it's what works with multiple-value-call. 02:26:46 right. 02:27:47 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:35:29 gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.25.20] has joined #lisp 02:36:34 -!- jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:38:09 Pavitra [~pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 02:39:24 Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483ABC8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:17 gaidal_ [~gaidal@113.119.25.20] has joined #lisp 02:40:29 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.126.178] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:40:49 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483ACE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:41:36 teggi [148b9232@gateway/web/freenode/ip.20.139.146.50] has joined #lisp 02:43:44 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.25.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:47:00 heidymadia [~saasten@61.247.42.167] has joined #lisp 02:47:39 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.15.155] has joined #lisp 02:47:39 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.15.155] has quit [Changing host] 02:47:39 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 02:49:29 wbooze: DTD is related to SGML, it just happens that XML is a subset of SGML so it was still usable 02:49:49 wbooze: XML-native approach is to use XML Schema 02:50:26 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:51:14 My first exposure to SEXP was DSSSL 02:53:16 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:53:39 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-179-75.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:05 felideon [~user@weston-69.65.92.95.myacc.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:46 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-110-93.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:57:46 -!- bhaskara [~user@gw.willowgarage.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:59:29 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA1050.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 03:01:58 saint_cypher [~rjspotter@c-76-126-70-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:28 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A3196.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:06:52 -!- Blkt [~user@82.84.172.202] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:08:37 -!- vervic [~vervic@vie-91-186-150-249.dsl.sil.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:08:37 vervic_ [~vervic@vie-91-186-159-064.dsl.sil.at] has joined #lisp 03:13:49 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Quit: all we are saying; is give peace a chance.] 03:18:23 saschakb` [~saschakb@p4FEA1050.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 03:20:20 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA1050.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:21:58 ikki [~ikki@189.195.68.75] has joined #lisp 03:24:35 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 03:25:27 -!- saschakb` [~saschakb@p4FEA1050.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:26:20 has anyone used clfswm here? it warns me that some functions are undefined and i can't find them in the sources either. though it's odd as multiple people seem to use it 03:28:24 one of them being handle-event-fun-main-mode-unmap-notify 03:28:35 -!- dys [~andreas@krlh-4d02bcb6.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:29:31 dys [~andreas@krlh-5f71dbc2.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:21 Dependency? 03:31:27 missing 03:31:35 *ThomasH* needs some coffee 03:33:07 -!- vervic_ [~vervic@vie-91-186-159-064.dsl.sil.at] has quit [Quit: vervic_] 03:35:35 ThomasH: no, i think i've cracked it 03:35:47 they are interning symbols based on printing the symbol names 03:36:00 however, if read-case is :lowercase their method seems to fail 03:37:57 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.195.68.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:38:01 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.123.251.72] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 03:38:42 madnificent: Do they have a good reason for doing that, or just trying to be clever? 03:38:46 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:40:09 ThomasH: it's a fair abstraction to make, but they shouldn't have used princ, they should've used symbol-name 03:40:56 ThomasH: luckily i've constructed something recently which dealt with this kind of thing correctly :) 03:42:24 Interesting, I just switched PRINC to SYMBOL-NAME in some code, but just because I was converting symbols to strings and thought PRINC was too general. 03:42:36 Nothing to do with interning. 03:44:08 gaaah. I think I got a little RPC-happy in designing a system 03:45:01 ThomasH: princ isn't the correct abstraction. them using strings in their representation isn't particularly helpful either 03:46:18 suddenly, distributed EJB doesn't looks so bad -_-; 03:50:22 on a related though less cool note, they're defining functions with numbers in them programatically (odd) 03:50:44 tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-45-158.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:18 ikki [~ikki@189.195.68.75] has joined #lisp 03:58:19 joy, this seems to work, guess i'll fork tomorow 03:58:21 it's too late now 04:00:25 leo2007 [~leo@114.249.201.148] has joined #lisp 04:08:58 kenyao [~kenyao@li336-171.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 04:09:07 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA38568.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:11:28 -!- SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:15:07 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 04:16:32 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.195.68.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:24:35 Manish` [~Manish@117.192.208.80] has joined #lisp 04:26:30 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:56 -!- Manish` is now known as manishY 04:32:09 -!- manishY is now known as manishYM 04:33:29 -!- kpal [~kpal@46-252-115-213.sibtele.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:35:10 kpal [~kpal@46-252-115-213.sibtele.com] has joined #lisp 04:35:58 -!- kenyao [~kenyao@li336-171.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: My God! Gone...] 04:36:04 kenyao [~kenyao@li336-171.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 04:38:38 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:42:44 asedt [~aron@78.156.198.209.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 04:45:42 stassats`: there? 04:45:48 yes 04:46:22 Cannot seem to correctly build the slime/doc info file. Do you mind give it a go too? 04:46:48 works fine 04:46:52 in slime/doc, make clean && make slime.info 04:47:47 stassats`: is contributors.texi populated. I am seeing: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/530781 04:47:53 and that file is empty. 04:48:10 it is populated 04:49:52 _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has joined #lisp 04:55:11 WhiteCat [~sebas@71-208-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 04:58:18 -!- WhiteCat [~sebas@71-208-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has left #lisp 04:58:22 pnathan [~Adium@98.145.116.190] has joined #lisp 04:59:18 -!- manishYM [~Manish@117.192.208.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 04:59:27 Is it possible to splice a list directly into a form? 04:59:32 e.g. 04:59:43 (defvar foo '(1 2 3)) 04:59:47 no 04:59:53 (eval (append '(+) foo)) 04:59:56 only not horrible 05:00:09 Pavitra: Look at APPLY 05:00:15 try doing (apply '+ foo) 05:00:49 aha! 05:00:59 Thank you, I knew there must be an easy way. 05:02:53 WhiteCat [~sbenitezb@71-208-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 05:04:29 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-179-75.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:06:47 -!- WhiteCat [~sbenitezb@71-208-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has left #lisp 05:06:51 -!- chenbing [~user@122.233.176.71] has left #lisp 05:07:57 chenbing [~user@122.233.176.71] has joined #lisp 05:08:24 there is always an easy way 05:08:36 also, if you think you need APPLY, then you're wrong 05:08:42 :-) 05:10:20 Pavitra: also look at REDUCE 05:10:47 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:12:49 vowyer [~vowyer@71-208-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 05:13:10 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:13:19 -!- kenyao [~kenyao@li336-171.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: My God! Gone...] 05:13:23 gravicappa [~gravicapp@h178-129-18-7.dyn.bashtel.ru] has joined #lisp 05:15:15 stassats`: I just pulled from CVS and confirmed that it is broken. 05:15:27 your set up is broken 05:16:05 how so? it was fine before 2011-11-27 05:16:16 some commits since probably fuck it up. 05:16:38 how do i know? you got it broken since then 05:17:05 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:17:10 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Quit: all we are saying; is give peace a chance.] 05:17:45 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-78-42.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:47 diginet [~user@ppp-70-247-43-95.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:50 hey 05:18:00 who am I talking to! nvm. 05:18:15 leo2007: to the one for whom it's not broken 05:18:57 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 05:19:15 -!- vowyer [~vowyer@71-208-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:20:12 just out of curiosity, has anyone here every played with/own a lisp machine? I've been strangely fascinated by them lately 05:20:51 diginet: they're old and slow 05:21:33 vowyer [~vowyer@71-208-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 05:21:44 And, you can't get parts for them. 05:21:59 I know 05:22:17 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Client Quit] 05:22:19 -!- vowyer [~vowyer@71-208-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Client Quit] 05:23:06 I like the idea of lisp in hardware (to a degree), it is of intellectual interest to me, obviously no pragmatic 05:23:13 vowyer [~vowyer@71-208-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 05:23:30 diginet: Intel Core iX is a good lisp hardware 05:24:23 -!- vowyer [~vowyer@71-208-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:24:57 -!- JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:25:19 well, yes, i know 05:25:38 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 05:25:47 lisp hardware was interesting in the past only because there was no good general purpose hardware 05:25:58 diginet: but what does it mean "lisp in hardware", really? It's not like the GC is implemented in hardware so as far as I can tell, it's just about having instructions that makes certain common Lisp constructs simpler. 05:26:24 But these days, it'd be hard-pressed to think of a way a modern CPU could be "improved" in such respect. 05:26:48 stassats`: not only, there were certain other things in research, but they are completely overlooked when it comes to LispMs, it seems (see Burroughs machines, which also had high-level language supported on bare metal, and are still used) 05:26:50 loke: CPUs of today could definitely be improved 05:27:19 p_l|home: and are irrelevant 05:27:29 stassats`: I wouldn't say that 05:27:36 Unsisys still turns a profit 05:27:38 loke: it could be done by actually using a modern design that isn't a calculator chip gone out of hand 05:27:38 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@h178-129-18-7.dyn.bashtel.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:27:44 and irrelevant=/=bad 05:28:07 p_l|home: is the ARM cpu a calculator chip gone out of hand? 05:28:10 slow, overpriced, uncommon? spells irrelevant in my book 05:28:16 loke: no, x86 is ;) 05:28:23 p_l|home: I'm not a fan of x86 05:28:40 stassats`: I'm talking about theoretical elegance, not price 05:29:11 anyway, I'd be happy with a clean, general purpose design, with maybe some extras that can be useful to implement not only lisp 05:29:21 and as I said, Unisys isn't as irrelevant as you think, there are a fair amount of committed MCP users 05:29:23 My personal favourite is SPARC, mainly because I know it so well, and because it's so incredibly consistent. It's the antithesis of the x86 :-) 05:29:23 and i don't think Unisys uses the original Burroughs machines 05:29:38 p_l|home: you'd love SPARC then 05:29:39 they bought Burroughs 05:29:42 diginet: legacy users 05:29:58 vowyer [~vowyer@71-208-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 05:30:08 they do sell some machines which have the burroughs CPU in hardware 05:30:12 more are in emulation though 05:30:24 loke: I prefer Alpha and MMIX. Even if Alpha can make one crazy. 05:30:32 I like Alpha too 05:30:37 now, it becomes off-topic to #lisp 05:30:43 and yeah, it's OT 05:30:46 I love DEC in general 05:30:55 *cough* m68k 05:31:01 those are neat too! 05:31:05 I don't know anything about Alpha, but it's (sadly) dead, and MMIX was never alive. :-) 05:31:18 but even those lacked extra bits for typed objects 05:31:26 Yeah, M68k is wonderful, but I focused on CPU's that you can buy in machines today 05:31:46 loke: there's Coldfire! 05:31:57 stassats`: with the latest CVS, I need to pass LC_ALL='C' to get it built correctly. I am on OSX. It could be a problem of makeinfo from Apple. 05:32:03 So, please tell me as I don't know anything about Alpha. What are some of the features that makes it nicer than SPARC? 05:32:06 anyway, these days, SBCL-OS like projects can be actually more relevant in the days of vSphere and other virtualisation farms 05:32:11 diginet: oh yeah. Forgot about that one. 05:32:34 loke: you can use it to heat buildings 05:32:44 loke: no branch delay slot was one, bloody simplicity of some stuff was another 05:32:56 stassats`: I live in the tropics. That's not a benefit to me :-) 05:32:59 stassats`: nah, that's NetBurst 05:33:23 loke: I'm not a huge fan of it though, it's not completely compatible, enough to give headaches 05:33:25 it takes *lots* to overshadow AMD's infamy for "hot" cpus 05:33:49 p_l|home: true, the branch delay slot can be a bit messy. Although the "single instruction jump" feature that came out of it is kind of neat :-) 05:33:53 maybe there's should be #cpu-nostalgy 05:34:01 yes! 05:34:07 I would love that channel 05:34:09 :) 05:34:45 there are some museums :) 05:34:48 like iMusee 05:34:59 diginet: anyway, instead of Lisp in hw, more interesting approach is bytecode 05:34:59 p_l|home: A more reasonable take on a modern Lisp OS would be to have a Linux kernel, replacing init with SBCL, and then run the entire system in it. 05:35:16 well, I like OS design though 05:35:30 Linux is only good pragmatically in that department 05:35:38 but then you said reasonable 05:35:42 loke: or use VMIC or whatever it was called and have it run on ESX 05:35:51 diginet: it's the only way (well, that, and VM's) to deal with hardware compatibity. 05:36:06 I suppose you could write it against Xen as well 05:36:08 or roll your own CPU! Conquer the world! 05:36:35 overpriced and slow? no thanks 05:36:36 take opensparc and fix as needed 05:36:39 I actually think, theoretically, chip fabbing at home could be possible 05:37:04 diginet: not for two decades or more, at least for anything useful 05:37:14 well, useful for modern cpu 05:37:16 there's this important difference between "theoretically" and "practically" 05:37:17 maybe 1 micron or so, not sure if that defines useful 05:37:20 diginet: it is. All you need is a Xilinx dev board 05:37:28 no, not that, like CMOS 05:37:33 err rather 05:37:33 useful in space :) 05:37:43 diginet: the chemicals involved are the kind of stuff that burn *concrete* 05:37:44 etching the CMOS circuits 05:37:51 yes, I'm aware of that 05:37:55 JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 05:37:59 not saying it's a good /idea/ 05:38:08 diginet: also, you'd need a high-class clean room 05:38:25 Just stick with FPGA's. You'll be able to build actual useful stuff. What a benefit! :-) 05:38:27 better concentrate on writing software 05:38:28 uninterruptible power supplies, etc. 05:38:37 if you were doing extreme low-volume you could use a small vacuum chamber 05:38:52 diginet: if you want, you can easily do small runs of chips with modern fabs 05:38:54 it's not exactly trivial to get a small vacuum chamber 05:39:03 yes I know 05:39:04 loke: indeed, then outsource actual fabrication if needed 05:39:11 phadthai: yep 05:39:17 phadthai: we did that at my old job 05:39:28 I find it easier to arrange an IBM 45nm SOI than to get a small vacuum chamber. 05:39:31 it's not that expensive really 05:39:35 you could make one 05:39:49 you could 05:39:50 I've seen people use those airtight food canisters 05:39:57 it doesn't need to be a high vacuum 05:39:58 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-139-212.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 05:39:59 but you'd still have to spend so much money on so many things 05:40:11 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:17 yes, but I mean, don't tell me you don't find the idea of making your own chips fascinating? 05:40:25 how is this all related to Common Lisp, again? 05:40:34 I can imagine why you would, but I'd rather make other things 05:40:37 shrug 05:40:39 the future "lisp hardware" :)) 05:40:44 the rebirth of the lisp machine! 05:40:53 revolution is imminent 05:41:00 anyway, anyone here used 0MQ from lisp? 05:41:01 If I had a nickel . . . 05:41:04 phadthai: the future is now, you can't beat the economies of scale of intel, or even amd 05:41:16 viva la parenthesis! 05:41:19 but x86 is so boring and ugly 05:41:38 ...I still forgot to mail sales@franz.com, dammit (I want ACL NCE license...) 05:41:45 I know you can download a MIPS layout for FPGA's right now 05:41:56 SPARC might also be available 05:42:08 I guess what bothers me about lisp on regular CPUs, is that ultimately it's the same as C, asm, or whatever 05:42:11 -!- ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has left #lisp 05:42:11 there are many cores freely available for most processors 05:42:14 diginet: btw, aren't there arm chips running jvm bytecode i.e. jazelle? I'd guess that some jvm instructions might be sane for high level languages, if that still exists and includes the new dynamic-language targetted jvm bytecodes heh 05:42:15 I know 05:42:15 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-78-42.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:42:28 stassats`: I was partially kidding :) 05:42:39 phadthai: yeah, that's what jazelle is 05:42:58 Hmm, didn't the VAX CPU's have an instruction for traversing linked lists? 05:43:18 it did have linked lists instructions but I don't remember which 05:43:27 I think car and cdr are derived? :) 05:43:29 loke: VAX had an instruction for evaluating polynomials, so probably. the easier question is what it didn't have :) 05:43:29 phadthai: jazelle is so bad I don't think anything modern uses it. It's also a *mode* for executing JVM bytecode directly. Good for running ABCL, not much more 05:43:51 gravicappa [~gravicapp@h178-129-77-177.dyn.bashtel.ru] has joined #lisp 05:43:52 diginet: it had whatever fit on the microcode ROM 05:44:00 I know 05:44:14 -!- vowyer [~vowyer@71-208-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 05:44:23 the PERQ machines were interesting, they had user modifiable microcode 05:44:34 diginet: that's what VAX had too, yes? 05:44:42 the most popular one, IIRC was a hardware version of the UCSD p-machine 05:44:46 no, I don't think so? 05:44:48 -!- davlap [~davlap@c-24-147-211-14.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 05:45:10 diginet: nearly all microcode machines have user-modifiable microcode. Now, whether you have tools to exploit that, is a different thing. 05:45:13 It might've been upgradeable, ala modern intel procs, but I don't think modfying the ISA by the end user was inteded 05:45:41 Also, I don't know how big AMD microcode is, but Intel's fairly short 05:45:41 p_l|home: that's a good point, I guess I should've been more clear 05:45:46 p_l|home: hmm ok I wasn't aware it had been a fiasco (jazelle) 05:45:51 leoncamel [~user@KD175129170046.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:45:52 I guess what I meant was places where it is intended 05:46:31 like Transmeta at least initially claimed it would be able to emulate differenet archs by loading different microcodes (but I don't think that ever came to fruition) 05:46:57 phadthai: there's a new gen of high-level support for dynamic languages, available in ARMv7-A, which can be useful to Lisp - it's Jazelle-RCX or something like that, and is actually targeted at adding instructions for implementations to use while executing normal ARM code 05:47:08 p_l|home: ThumbEE 05:47:16 interesting 05:47:30 diginet: it (Transmeta) worked, but I don't know of anyone using that outside research 05:47:36 ARM is pretty good I suppose, I just don't like ARM, Ltd. 05:47:49 diginet: Why? 05:48:01 *loke* still associates ARM with the old RISCOS machines :-) 05:48:04 Archimedes 05:48:34 I dunno, they seem rather obnoxious. They're pretty vicious about FPGA implimentations of anything vaguely ARM-like 05:49:03 diginet: they're a patent holding company 05:49:07 diginet: what do you expect? 05:49:14 diginet: as for the microcode in x86-compatibles, other than Transmeta, I heard that AMD64 chips have really... weird history 05:49:19 loke: I don't like patent holding companies :/ 05:49:36 diginet: well, true. I guess I agree with you :-) 05:49:39 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@dyn-49-127-1-99.its.monash.edu.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 05:49:41 p_1 05:49:44 OK, I don't like ARM Ltd 05:50:16 interesting 05:50:38 I believe AMD's K6 was essentially a microcoded version of their shortlived RISC arch 05:50:44 diginet: that was K5 05:50:47 K5 05:50:49 right 05:50:58 madnificent: you still here? 05:51:18 and it wasn't exactly microcoded - it had an instruction decoder in front that might have been adjustable with microcode, though 05:54:29 -!- Ralith [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:54:30 anyone here used 0MQ with CL in anger? 05:54:32 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-155-127.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:54:50 Guthur did 05:55:15 stassats`: thanks 05:56:34 gn, bbl 05:56:46 good to know 05:56:49 phadthai: 'night 05:57:23 stassats`: I have a pretty big project that is going to need cross language RPC and it fell to 0MQ for now. 05:58:05 waveman [~tim@124-168-80-70.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 05:58:34 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-155-127.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:58:52 Ralith [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 05:58:58 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 06:00:15 -!- Kron__ [~Kron@199.91.212.106] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 06:02:46 so, more on topic. Are there any good physics libraries written in lisp that would be useful for games? 06:02:48 Cosman246 [~cosman246@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 06:03:02 i doubt that 06:03:08 I know there are some bindings to Bullet3D, but for my illogic self, I'd prefer something in lisp 06:03:12 oh okay 06:03:41 I think Blackthorn3D might have some physics stuff, but I'm not sure how usable that is 06:06:35 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@h178-129-77-177.dyn.bashtel.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:09:09 -!- felideon [~user@weston-69.65.92.95.myacc.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:09:52 -!- Pavitra [~pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:16:38 -!- brendyn [~brendyn@123-2-73-61.static.dsl.dodo.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:17:29 Do Lisps typically implement (length ) in O(1)? 06:17:38 Quadrescence: yes 06:17:42 -!- tiglog [~tiglog@61.149.225.12] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:17:55 Quadrescence: are you the same Quadrescence in #nekochan? 06:18:05 Quadrescence: The spec doesn't require it. But I know of no Lisp that doesn't. 06:18:11 diginet, are you sure there's a Quadrescence in #nekochan? 06:18:31 -!- anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 06:18:43 err, I meant #classiccmp 06:18:52 anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has joined #lisp 06:18:53 yes 06:18:57 ah okay 06:19:02 hi then :P 06:19:10 wait 06:19:10 aloha 06:19:13 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 06:19:25 that was a stupid question of course you are its the same server! 06:21:11 -!- yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Quit: bye!] 06:22:07 gravicappa [~gravicapp@h178-129-70-204.dyn.bashtel.ru] has joined #lisp 06:23:10 _pw_ [~user@123.112.66.23] has joined #lisp 06:26:23 -!- _pw_ [~user@123.112.66.23] has left #lisp 06:27:01 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 06:28:58 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-24-218-165-162.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:29:29 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:31:14 I don't know why people find lisp's sentence offputting. C made absolutely no sense to me initially when I was first learning about programming 06:31:19 *syntax 06:31:46 "The parenthesis comes *before* the function name?!?!??!" 06:31:54 -!- kpal [~kpal@46-252-115-213.sibtele.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:32:27 true I guess, and prefix notation (which is much better) 06:32:50 foo(x,y) vs (foo x y), I don't know why people think it's so odd 06:33:16 people are odd 06:33:18 the lack of curly-brackets alone is enough to convince me 06:33:29 and commas & semicolons 06:33:34 I hate C-style syntax, it's so unreadable 06:33:44 man, I hate field separators. really screws with multi-line editing 06:33:51 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 06:35:32 the semi-colon key has always annoyed me. I mean, in it's original use, how much more often do you use the semicolon over the colon? If it weren' 06:35:36 If it weren 06:35:38 ugh 06:36:02 I think I actually use semicolons more than colons, in normal writing. 06:36:07 If it weren't for C and it's ilk, I feel like it would be the reverse by now (was this the case in the original QWERTY?) 06:36:11 but I still think Erlang has worse punctuator usage than C 06:36:26 I haven't looked at Erlang 06:36:37 great language to learn concepts from 06:36:44 kpal [~kpal@46-252-115-213.sibtele.com] has joined #lisp 06:36:51 but that's about all I'd recommend :) 06:36:56 Was what the case in the original QWERTY? 06:37:20 *Phoodus* uses semicolons quite often, too 06:37:25 was the semi-colon the standard char, and the colon accessed with shift? 06:37:27 in written english, that is 06:37:32 like, on typewriters 06:37:49 No, but only because you printed a semicolon by printing a comma on top of a colon. 06:37:58 ah 06:38:19 also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:QWERTY_1878.png 06:38:35 -!- eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 06:38:38 Phoodus: I like LambdaProlog :) predicate logic + typed lambda calculus = win 06:38:53 Screw QWERTY. Dvorak FTW 06:39:58 Bike: any clue what's to the left of "A" in that key layout? 06:40:33 looks like | 06:40:51 looks like 3 dots vertically, with some sort of comma/quote on top 06:40:55 and also no + sign, only - 06:41:17 Phoodus: | + long -, will get you + 06:42:55 No parentheses on that keyboard 06:42:59 Lisp will be hard 06:43:34 Trivial: (global-set-key (kbd "whatevver") (lambda () (interactive) (insert "(")))) 06:43:38 brendyn [~brendyn@123-2-73-61.static.dsl.dodo.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:43:41 Or key translation. 06:43:59 I'm presuming the "display" won't be able to output that though 06:44:26 I love how on LispM keyboards, parentheses are non-shifted 06:44:47 and of course the dedicated control and meta keys (and one other of which the name escapes me) 06:44:48 I would love me one of those space cadet keyboards 06:45:00 is anyone making them (or somehting similar) these days? 06:45:11 if you could combine a space cadet with a Model M, I would be in heaven 06:45:24 you could just remap your keyboard appropriately. 06:45:31 true 06:45:55 Control, Meta, Hyper, Super, Top, Greek, Shift 06:46:01 so you guys are telling me you wouldn't rather type on an iPad? KEYBOARDS ARE OLD AND OUTDATED!!! TOUCHSCREENS ARE THE FUTURE MAN!!! 06:46:27 -!- Cosman246 [~cosman246@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:46:33 Greek? I didn't know that. I actually use the Greek alphebet fairly frequently (unrelated to programming though) 06:47:03 My boss was widely proclaiming a few years back that the end of physical buttons on keyboards were near. Everything woul djust be a large touchpad. He cited the very low profile of the current mac keyboards as proof. 06:47:09 diginet: AFAIK it worked as a shift key. Better use set-input-method in emacs. 06:47:19 I told him he was wrong and furuture would prove me right. This was just before the ipad came out 06:47:26 He hasn't claimed it since. :-) 06:47:43 diginet: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Space-cadet.jpg 06:47:45 diginet: find a photo of a space cadet keyboard, look at the front of the keys 06:47:59 http://www.tomshardware.com/news/touch-led-ftir-keyboard-mouse-kickstarter,14122.html 06:48:08 but yeah, on a modern system it would probably be better to map some chord to switch input language. 06:48:10 diginet: Greek is for accessing the symbols on the side of the keys, I think 06:48:15 You can already "order" one. 06:48:21 -!- naryl [~weechat@188.134.95.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:48:25 pjb: are they USB? 06:48:29 Yes. 06:48:36 Neat. Are they just rebuilt originals? 06:48:37 Bike: this is assumed the user binds his own keys. 06:48:48 you can order them? 06:48:57 /me wants 06:49:11 It's a subscription, but yes. They should be delivered in April. 06:49:18 but, at least one the one I linked a picture to, the parens are shifted! 06:49:26 oooohhh!, sweet 06:49:26 pjb: URL? 06:49:29 awwww :( 06:49:32 *loke* will order right now 06:49:33 http://www.tomshardware.com/news/touch-led-ftir-keyboard-mouse-kickstarter,14122.html 06:49:47 oh 06:49:56 I thought you weret alking about Space cadet keyboard 06:49:57 I thought we were talking about space cadet 06:50:00 yeah me too 06:50:12 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1116966310/multi-touch-keyboard-and-mouse 06:50:13 That one looks like complete and utter shit... 06:50:37 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 06:52:10 I'll send this to my boss and see if his hands will be where his mouth was. :-) 06:52:19 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.3.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:52:22 xyxu1 [~xyxu@58.41.3.132] has joined #lisp 06:52:57 oh that keyboard 06:53:06 I remember seeing that weeks ago 06:53:10 and concluding it would be terrible 06:53:18 Well you buy two keyboards, a DasKeyboard (or a Filco), for typing, and a Giddings for the looks. 06:53:21 on the basis of 1. nigh-impossible to keep clean 06:53:26 and 2. no tactile anything 06:53:48 Ralith: same feel as on the iPad :-) 06:53:56 precisely 06:55:24 btbngr [~btbngr@188.28.245.90.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:55:38 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@h178-129-70-204.dyn.bashtel.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:56:45 So, the more important question: Where can I get anything like the SCC today? :-) 06:56:59 ebay. 06:57:02 -!- leo2007 [~leo@114.249.201.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:57:08 And some keyboard makers make them to specifications. 06:57:18 pjb: ah that sounds more promising 06:57:24 My solution is to use a DasKeyboard without marking,so I can map anything. 06:57:27 got any links? 06:57:34 where can you get a custom keyboard with more keys than usual for sane prices? 06:57:38 all I've ever seen is custom keycaps 06:57:46 I like my markings. And I've use sticker markers before, and they don't work. 06:57:54 loke: I don't remember precisely the customer keyboard makers. 06:57:59 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.185.237] has joined #lisp 06:57:59 Perhaps Cherry. 06:58:08 -!- brendyn [~brendyn@123-2-73-61.static.dsl.dodo.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:58:25 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 06:59:05 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 07:03:37 pjb: Hmm... I think perhaps this one could be adapted with a little bit of remapping. 07:03:37 http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/keyboards/Industrial/6240/index.htm 07:06:41 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has joined #lisp 07:07:38 ikki [~ikki@189.195.68.75] has joined #lisp 07:08:50 brendyn [~brendyn@123-2-73-61.static.dsl.dodo.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:10:07 pjb: I highly doubt Cherry would manufacture oneoff nonstandard keyboards for affordable prices. 07:10:27 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 07:10:33 I'd be a bit surprised if they sell to consumers at all, really 07:10:58 CrazyWoods [~crazywood@120.42.90.126] has joined #lisp 07:12:52 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has left #lisp 07:13:07 pjb: that keyboard (glass one) will be unusable 07:13:22 gravicappa [~gravicapp@h178-129-54-166.dyn.bashtel.ru] has joined #lisp 07:13:36 also, for custom keyboards, wasn't there the OLED keycap one? 07:14:21 bloody expensive, but reconfigurable on the fly? 07:15:00 what made the SCC keyboard notable was the large number of physical keys, I think. 07:15:18 specifically, ones positioned such that they were conveniently usable as modifiers 07:15:42 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.130.246] has joined #lisp 07:16:15 -!- sacho_ [~sacho@95-42-91-219.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:16:27 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:16:32 SlayersZ [~SlayersZ@70.65.233.0] has joined #lisp 07:16:45 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.193.184] has quit [Quit: tensorpudding] 07:17:25 good morning 07:17:49 Ralith: idunno, hitting Hyper-F doesn't seem very convenient for the left hand 07:18:09 so don't get a SCC. 07:18:26 I mean, how does it look convenient to you? 07:18:50 I think adding more vertically, or not making many of those keys double-width would bring them into a more convenient reach 07:19:08 tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.193.184] has joined #lisp 07:19:49 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.185.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:19:57 Phoodus: Well, Hyper-F requires both hands on PC keyboard too 07:20:23 with what as the hyper equivalent? 07:20:27 most of the important modifiers on the symbolics keyboard were used with thumbs 07:20:42 Phoodus: the official one, the one marked as "Menu" 07:20:57 (yes, that's Hyper in X.Org) 07:21:03 or you could make it bigger and use your elbow to reach the corner keys :) 07:21:06 Windows key is "Super" 07:21:10 ok 07:21:19 well then, Hyper-J 07:22:34 I'm on laptop keyboard, that's easy ;) 07:22:36 at least it's not this: http://jebutlin.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/keyboard.jpg 07:22:54 right, but even on a standard keyboard, you can reach all the meta keys without moving your hands away 07:22:57 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:23:12 ie, left-side meta keys can be used with left-side alphanumeric keys single-handedly, same for the right 07:24:02 Frozenlock [~user@cable-quebec-15.246.173-179.electronicbox.net] has joined #lisp 07:24:09 Phoodus: I'm not sure if that japanese layout wasn't what was used for typesetting 07:24:24 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@h178-129-54-166.dyn.bashtel.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:25:03 it's a chinese keyboard, and there are multiple complete ideographs on each key afaict 07:26:06 Phoodus: that's japanese keyboard. A Chinese one wouldn't have a key marked with katakana 07:26:26 (on the left of the reset key) 07:26:51 Cryotank2011 [~Cryotank2@c-24-17-62-152.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:28:39 (after zooming in, you can also see kana on the front of the keycaps - the green colored sides) 07:29:12 -!- diginet [~user@ppp-70-247-43-95.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:29:16 still, I wonder how much it will cost to get a symbolics keyboard + converter box 07:29:22 ah, interesting. I guess the description was hogwash then 07:30:38 Phoodus: or just mangled n-th hand info 07:30:41 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 07:31:17 if I didn't miscount, that symbolics keyboard only has 99 keys 07:31:20 with the person publishing it not knowing enough about China-derived writing systems to notice 07:31:35 -!- heidymadia [~saasten@61.247.42.167] has left #lisp 07:31:53 Kryztof [~user@AMontsouris-551-1-70-70.w90-24.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:32:00 99 physical keys 07:32:51 so custom keycaps on a "normal" keyboard could cover that, though all the meta keys might not play well with simultaneous keypresses 07:33:40 the layout too 07:33:49 also, symbolics didn't have numpad, iirc 07:34:11 right 07:34:22 tiglog [~tiglog@61.149.225.12] has joined #lisp 07:34:24 nor "function keys" 07:34:39 no, it had function keys, they were just statically labeled 07:34:44 right 07:34:57 wildnux [~wildnux@cpe-72-182-70-190.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:35:25 as far as the meta keys go, you could remap left-alt|right-alt to say alt|greek, etc 07:35:43 lose redundancy in the keys but be able to fit them all onto the physical meta keys 07:36:22 I'd rather remap left ctrl (currently caps-lock) into Compose, which is X11-correct way of inputting strange characters 07:36:34 left alt already is recognized as meta 07:36:44 while right alt is alt-gr and is bloody important 07:37:04 true, I'm on a US keyboard which just has left-alt, right-alt 07:39:12 technically polish layout reports right alt as just that, but it reserves certain mappings. (Well, "Polish Programmer's Keyboard", aka "One true keyboard of Poland") 07:39:38 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:39:44 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.195.68.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:41:07 and the layout I'm using has some extras mapped as well 07:41:45 I want to reimplement it partially on the symbolics keyboard, though 07:42:42 -!- pnathan [~Adium@98.145.116.190] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:42:43 actually seeing the keycount being smaller than the keyboard I'm currently using does seem to reduce its novelty though 07:43:33 Probably depends on usage pattern 07:44:17 the only F-keys I'm using are F11 and F10, which is launch Firefox and launch Emacs-client (both when called with Super pressed) 07:44:43 while a bigger keyboard might be nice to code 07:47:08 -!- leoncamel [~user@KD175129170046.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:47:09 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 07:49:02 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-227-13.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:49:04 -!- SlayersZ [~SlayersZ@70.65.233.0] has left #lisp 07:52:06 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.112.130] has joined #lisp 07:53:18 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-227-13.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:04:20 :)/go 08:04:23 :s 08:06:45 nothing happens. 08:07:02 when? 08:07:21 osa1 [~sinan@88.244.142.253] has joined #lisp 08:07:32 when you say xyzzy in most places. :) 08:11:46 i see :P 08:12:29 sorry. not much sleep. ;) 08:15:34 no need to apologize! 08:15:38 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 08:18:16 varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:29:19 -!- shachaf [~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:32:14 shachaf [~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net] has joined #lisp 08:33:23 -!- Cryotank2011 [~Cryotank2@c-24-17-62-152.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Cryotank2011] 08:34:38 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-155-127.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: sleep] 08:36:49 -!- xyxu1 [~xyxu@58.41.3.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:37:55 Guthur [~user@host86-147-204-196.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 08:40:52 ikki [~ikki@189.195.68.75] has joined #lisp 08:41:46 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.12.10] has joined #lisp 08:48:55 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.195.68.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:50:44 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.12.10] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:50:57 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-86-188.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:51:11 snearch [~snearch@e178054212.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:54:28 kilon [~user@athedsl-189818.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 08:54:32 dtw [dtw@dsl-roibrasgw1-fe84fb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 08:55:20 ehu [~erik@62.140.137.93] has joined #lisp 08:56:02 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@79.Red-88-7-134.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:27 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 08:56:48 I had to use eval to pass value of a form to a macro, is there any other ways to do this or is my use of eval ok? http://paste.pocoo.org/show/530826/ 08:56:48 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.0.157] has joined #lisp 08:58:04 it's not ok to use eval 08:59:03 osa1, that looks like a poor use of eval; 09:00:49 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:00:55 ok, so how can I pass value of the form without using eval? 09:01:06 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.0.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:01:42 that's the wrong question to ask, really 09:01:44 that's not how macros work 09:01:45 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:03:03 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.112.130] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:04:11 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.112.130] has joined #lisp 09:04:53 -!- kilon [~user@athedsl-189818.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:05:26 stassats`: where can I find more about how do macros work and why my code is wrong(how to pass value of a variable to macros or why should't I etc) 09:06:00 you can't pass values of variables to macros because this value doesn't exist when the macro is expanded 09:06:07 that's what functions are for 09:06:44 kilon [~user@athedsl-411578.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 09:07:31 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-220-98.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:08:09 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 09:09:14 marsell [~marsell@120.18.133.58] has joined #lisp 09:14:32 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 09:15:58 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:16:32 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 09:21:41 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:22:58 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:25:02 Odin- [~sbkhh@212-106-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is] has joined #lisp 09:29:24 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:30:32 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:31:06 -!- anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 09:31:43 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.15.43] has joined #lisp 09:35:20 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 09:38:39 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 09:41:39 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.15.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:41:41 -!- ehu [~erik@62.140.137.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:42:38 -!- CaZe [~CaZe@unaffiliated/y354c] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:42:56 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.0.128] has joined #lisp 09:44:24 xyxu1 [~xyxu@58.41.0.31] has joined #lisp 09:45:01 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:45:02 anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has joined #lisp 09:45:23 -!- snearch [~snearch@e178054212.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 09:45:37 -!- teggi [148b9232@gateway/web/freenode/ip.20.139.146.50] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:45:47 ehu [~erik@62.140.137.93] has joined #lisp 09:45:51 time for a question : is it possible through lisp abilities and slime for several coder to work on the same source while the source is running , from remote locations ? 09:46:25 theoretically 09:47:02 the code that you submit lives in your own local buffer 09:47:09 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.0.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:47:16 but you can connect multiple users already 09:47:41 and those users can edit my code if allow them too ? lets say we all work on the same lisp file 09:47:49 so having shared buffers in emacs is the only part that'd need to be written 09:48:03 kilon: why would you want to do that, though? 09:48:16 i am just curious 09:48:31 a friend ask for it , but he is a web developer 09:48:58 he is torn between python django , smalltalk seaside and lisp webblocks 09:49:12 kilon: using screen or tmux and attaching that from multiple workstations would be the easiest way, i'd say 09:50:13 i see , very interesting thanks 09:50:36 -!- ehu [~erik@62.140.137.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:50:49 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-138-150.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:52:08 gensym [~user@dslc-082-082-103-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:53:20 someone mentioned `M-x make-frame-on-display RET other.host:0.0 RET' 09:54:51 osa1: Casting Spels in Lisp http://www.lisperati.com/casting.html 09:55:05 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:56:07 osa1: macros get source code (variable names, source expressions), and must produce a source expression. You can return an expression that will evaluate an expression at run-time and do something with the result: (defmacro m (e) (let ((v (gensym))) `(let ((,v ,e)) (do-something ,v)))) 09:56:41 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-220-98.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:57:38 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-220-98.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:00:35 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 10:03:54 ikki [~ikki@189.195.68.75] has joined #lisp 10:07:28 sacho_ [~sacho@95-42-91-219.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 10:07:29 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.145.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 10:08:52 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.193.184] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:09:50 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:11:00 tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.193.184] has joined #lisp 10:11:57 thanks ski_ 10:12:43 jjkola [~jjkola@xdsl-83-150-83-66.nebulazone.fi] has joined #lisp 10:14:38 -!- 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[~tim@124-168-80-70.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:49:44 Blkt [~user@82.84.172.202] has joined #lisp 12:50:45 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.195.68.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:51:37 marsell [~marsell@120.18.255.32] has joined #lisp 12:54:13 good day everyone 13:04:18 gravicappa [~gravicapp@h94-75-55-188.dyn.bashtel.ru] has joined #lisp 13:04:26 -!- osa1 [~sinan@88.244.142.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:07:53 hi Blkt 13:09:32 :D 13:09:34 -!- gaidal_ [~gaidal@113.119.25.20] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:09:56 gaidal_ [~gaidal@113.119.25.20] has joined #lisp 13:10:58 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:28 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:17:48 replore [~replore@EM117-55-65-133.emobile.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 13:18:08 pnq [~nick@ACA32437.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 13:22:09 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:23:30 yello Blkt 13:24:22 :D 13:32:20 -!- xyxu1 [~xyxu@58.41.0.31] has left #lisp 13:33:40 -!- btbngr [~btbngr@188.28.245.90.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:34:38 teggi [~teggi@123.20.52.215] has joined #lisp 13:34:39 osa1 [~sinan@78.179.136.74] has joined #lisp 13:36:00 bsod1 [~bsod1@78.179.136.74] has joined #lisp 13:36:06 steevy [~steevy@91-67-42-157-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:36:30 felideon [~user@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 13:37:55 -!- gensym [~user@dslc-082-082-103-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:42:02 ikki [~ikki@189.195.68.75] has joined #lisp 13:44:42 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-184-147.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:46:09 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@79.Red-88-7-134.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:46:51 -!- jt123 [~jayan@cpc4-lutn3-0-0-cust768.9-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: jt123] 13:47:13 -!- replore [~replore@EM117-55-65-133.emobile.ad.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:50:03 Xach: I'm having problems with the new quicklisp release not seeing a specific system 13:50:41 it installed a load of other systems quite happily,but 'can't find' cxml-dom, despite returning it in ql:system-aporpos results for "cxml" 13:52:31 running sbcl SBCL 1.0.40.0.debian on debian stable 13:52:54 -!- bsamograd [~user@184.71.240.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:53:55 m0prl: cxml-dom is defined within the cxml system 13:54:01 m0prl: it is only loadable by loading cxml 13:54:07 I will fix the apropos output 13:54:58 jstypo_ [~jstypo@190.39.219.179] has joined #lisp 13:55:46 -!- jstypo_ [~jstypo@190.39.219.179] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:56:09 Xach: ah, ok; misinterpreted output 13:56:26 i wasn't asking it to load cxml-dom by hand, but via another asd file 13:56:50 I've just tried asking it for cml, and it comes back with System "cxml-dom" not found 13:57:08 cml? 13:57:21 m0prl: you had :depends-on cxml-dom in your system file? 13:57:39 *sigh* 13:57:46 laggy sat-link 13:58:00 no, i depend on cxml in my system file 13:58:09 chiguire|m [~chiguire@190.39.219.179] has joined #lisp 13:58:10 last me drop something i the pastbin 13:58:39 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@190.39.219.179] has quit [Changing host] 13:58:39 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 13:59:16 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@79.Red-88-7-134.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:59:20 let* 13:59:38 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@h94-75-55-188.dyn.bashtel.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:59:58 http://paste.lisp.org/display/126895 14:00:11 m0prl: that is pretty weird! i'll check it out. 14:00:29 thanks 14:00:33 -!- dtw [dtw@dsl-roibrasgw1-fe84fb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: +++ATH0] 14:00:33 let me know if i can provide any more info 14:00:43 m0prl: hmm, i can't reproduce :( 14:01:58 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.195.68.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:02:52 chiguire|m_ [~chiguire@190.39.219.179] has joined #lisp 14:02:59 -!- chiguire|m_ [~chiguire@190.39.219.179] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:03:00 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Client Quit] 14:03:53 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 14:04:03 ikki [~ikki@189.195.68.75] has joined #lisp 14:04:57 *Xach* scratches head 14:05:37 Xach: whenever someone says "can't reproduce" I think of the xkcd comic 14:05:41 -!- Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483ABC8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:05:52 tha'ts odd 14:06:02 that was a fresh quicklisp install on debian stable 14:06:20 I've just updated my local quicklisp on OS X and deleted my already-installed cxml 14:06:37 when I try quickloading it I get the same output and failure 14:06:41 mstevens: I try never to think of xkcd comics 14:06:55 m0prl: i'll try a fresh setup 14:06:55 -!- gaidal_ [~gaidal@113.119.25.20] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:07:33 gaidal_ [~gaidal@113.119.25.20] has joined #lisp 14:07:33 Ok, now I get the same result. 14:09:27 m0prl: tracking via https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-client/issues/50 14:09:27 -!- gaidal_ [~gaidal@113.119.25.20] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:09:44 this might be me misunderstanding something, but if i look in systems.txt I see some lines for cxml which state it has a dependency on cxml-dom 14:10:03 gaidal_ [~gaidal@113.119.25.20] has joined #lisp 14:10:04 which would explain it trying to install cxml-dom, but of course there's no entry for that in systems.txt 14:10:19 k, thanks for the issue 14:11:29 it is starting to click for me 14:11:29 -!- gaidal_ [~gaidal@113.119.25.20] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:11:42 presumably it can't load its own dependecy 14:12:17 sigh, clfswm is gpl software 14:12:26 why do i see that only now ?! 14:16:13 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.159.134] has joined #lisp 14:18:05 osa1__ [~sinan@78.173.124.25] has joined #lisp 14:18:07 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.179.136.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:18:16 -!- bsod1 [~bsod1@78.179.136.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:19:54 madnificent: what's the problem ? 14:20:41 -!- johs [~johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:20:41 -!- pok [~pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:20:55 m0prl: I think I have a fix. Are you up for trying it as a patch? 14:21:03 fe[nl]ix: i don't like to work/use gpl code, the license scares me 14:21:14 sure 14:21:14 johs [~johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 14:21:16 pok [~pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has joined #lisp 14:21:17 fe[nl]ix: if i'd be a lawyer, i'd love it for all the work it could giveme 14:21:42 m0prl: actually, just open ~/quicklisp/quicklisp/dist.lisp and change line 471 from :index 1 to :index 2 14:21:49 then rm ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/*.cdb 14:21:54 why would ever wrap a single defun in an eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) ? 14:22:08 madnificent: to make it available to macros in the same file 14:22:27 don't they already have access to it if the function is defined beforehand? 14:22:36 compilation is done form by form, no? 14:22:53 tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-28-130.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:23:38 *madnificent* has never seen it fail in practice and thought that was the reason why it worked. before the macro is called, the functions have been defined. 14:23:50 madnificent: no. 14:24:47 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-45-158.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:25:01 jt123 [~jayan@cpc4-lutn3-0-0-cust768.9-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 14:25:23 derrida: that might help you, too 14:25:25 i'm truely astonished by this, could someone point me to the place in the clhs which explains why my reasoning is wrong? also, do all implementations handle this case perfectly then, i've never encountered any issues with this. 14:25:54 madnificent: You don't have much experience. 14:26:00 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128087020.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 14:26:09 You seem too willing to extrapolate from what little you have, too. 14:26:13 Xach: that doesn't mean i'm wrong ;-) (though i probably am, but still) 14:26:36 Xach: please don't deny the request for formal information with the idea that i must be vastly inferior to you in your own mind. 14:26:39 Xach: looks good 14:26:46 madnificent: if you compile/load a file with a macro in it, it's available to subsequent files 14:27:09 madnificent: http://paste.lisp.org/display/126896 14:27:20 Xach: testing and working on both systems 14:27:30 dlowe: but this is about a function definition, which doesn't use a macro itself. 14:27:45 Kron_ [~Kron@199.91.212.106] has joined #lisp 14:27:46 madnificent: there is no single sentence in the clhs that describe common lisps compilation model, i think. 14:27:54 madnificent: I suggest reading 3.2.3 specifically and 3.2 in general. 14:28:01 madnificent: it's in order to _make_ that function available to macros in the same file 14:28:13 leoncamel [~user@KD175129170046.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:28:15 not because it uses macros 14:28:21 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 14:28:25 H4ns: How about this: "ormally, the top level forms appearing in a file compiled with compile-file are evaluated only when the resulting compiled file is loaded, and not when the file is compiled. However, it is typically the case that some forms in the file need to be evaluated at compile time so the remainder of the file can be read and compiled correctly." 14:28:26 madnificent: er, yeah. other way around. 14:28:45 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:28:59 Not really the same thing, but appropriate for this case. 14:29:01 Xach: very good. 14:29:22 dlowe: ok 14:29:24 madnificent: did you look at my paste? did it work for you? did you find out how eval-when can make it work? 14:29:38 H4ns: am looking, am doing, am swapping also 14:29:52 Here's a nickel, kid 14:29:56 yeah, i know 14:30:35 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.195.68.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:30:40 madnificent: I don't care that you have little experience, but it's a waste of time when the response to explanation is "WOW! I didn't know that! Can it be true! Prove it to me!" 14:30:43 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA32437.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:31:37 Xach: no, it is not. 14:31:46 H4ns: you're right though. 14:31:59 i'm still amazed by it, it seem something relatively simple to fix. 14:32:57 especially when the argument during the standardisation often was something in the likes of 'a sufficiently smart compiler ...' 14:33:50 madnificent: you can stop this now. 14:34:35 madnificent: functions are not loaded automatically in order to preserve memory during compilation. that may not be very useful today, but it was when cl was defined. 14:35:25 oh, that makes sense 14:35:49 i guess my overuse of flet and labels got me out of having this issue 14:36:57 also, it helps implementations that better delineate between compile-time and runtime. Implementations like ECL, but in which the main execution/delivery model was via .o files. 14:36:59 madnificent: more often than not, things in cl are very well-defined. it is very rare, that "problems" in cl can be "fixed" easily. sometimes the reasons are arcane, but most of the time, they are very real. 14:37:43 ikki [~ikki@189.195.68.75] has joined #lisp 14:39:20 -!- chenbing [~user@115.206.199.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:40:17 H4ns: oh, i wasn't stating that it was done badly. i was implicitly asking why it was like this. 14:41:37 pkhuong: how does that help? the same issues arise, but you now know which functions you need to add. does that make it much simpler? 14:41:38 chenbing [~user@115.206.199.178] has joined #lisp 14:41:43 /join emacs 14:42:08 madnificent: I ran into this just recently, except from possibly the other direction 14:42:50 gaidal_ [~gaidal@113.119.25.20] has joined #lisp 14:42:51 I had a macro using a func i was defining, obviously it wasn't available so I quickly deduced I needed an eval-when 14:42:54 it also surprises me a bit that there's no shortform for eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) as it must occur more often than i initially assumed. sorry for my ramblings, i have that exciting 'the world is different now' feeling :) 14:43:29 Guthur: if i had encountered it i'd likely have done the same thing, and then would have started pondering on it like i am now. (cool!) 14:43:46 madnificent: in a common case (a file full of defuns), you can just compile everything into one .o file, then dlopen() that 14:44:03 -!- marsell [~marsell@120.18.255.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:45:19 rudi: perhaps it helps you to solve the simple case first then bolt on what you need for the more complex cases. 14:45:30 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-139-212.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:13 -!- gaidal_ [~gaidal@113.119.25.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:52:29 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@152.105.132.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:53:28 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:53:30 thanks for the quick help all. i haven't found an explicit reference in CLHS 3.2, though 3.2.3.1.1 addresses a related issue. 14:54:26 bsamograd [~user@184.71.240.90] has joined #lisp 14:55:08 about style then. in my current case the function is not being called in the same file, but it is called by macros during their macroexpansion in other files. is it best to place the eval-when around it as to ensure human readers understand it's there for macros, or sholudn't i do it as it's not needed. 14:55:17 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:55:59 sholudn't sounds like a cool word, but i needed shouldn't 14:56:40 macro expansion is before run-time ?! 14:56:50 of course 14:57:38 so before evel ? 14:57:40 eval* 14:59:56 -!- ski_ [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:02:42 ski_ [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:03:29 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@199.91.212.106] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 15:06:56 no 15:10:25 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-139-212.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 15:12:19 eval only assumes read-time has happend, right? 15:12:48 Not even that. 15:13:04 The objects provided to EVAL could come from anywhere. 15:13:21 oh cool 15:14:27 pnathan [~Adium@98.145.116.190] has joined #lisp 15:15:50 hey people 15:16:16 what should i use instead of setf to program in the functional style? 15:16:36 nothing 15:16:53 let 15:17:41 rudi: could you give me an example please? 15:18:00 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 15:18:04 please read some introductory text to Common Lisp 15:18:10 like Practical Common Lisp 15:18:19 (let ((my-new-variable (compute-it))) (use my-new-variable)) 15:20:08 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.195.68.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:21:42 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:22:14 jt123: or check out the SICP book and/or lectures 15:22:32 but it's not CL 15:29:04 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:30:49 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 15:30:54 kilon : ooi, got `make-frame-on-display' working ? 15:32:25 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:33:04 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:34:07 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:15 urandom__ [~user@p548A2349.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:04 ski_: i dont have multiple displays to try this 15:36:40 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 15:37:31 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:37:34 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:14 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:30 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 15:44:55 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #lisp 15:47:01 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 15:49:18 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 15:50:53 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:52:59 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:53:21 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:30 you can just start two x servers 15:54:48 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0/20111228055358]] 15:55:10 pnq [~nick@ACA229B7.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 15:55:21 Athas [~athas@2.104.18.219] has joined #lisp 15:56:23 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:56:50 dtw [dtw@dsl-roibrasgw1-fe84fb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 15:57:12 hraban [hraban@78-21-54-54.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 15:57:15 -!- hraban is now known as Anvandare 15:57:37 are there short-circuit boolean operators built-in? 15:58:20 Anvandare: you mean like AND and OR? 15:59:18 yes, but which continue to evaluate all arguments 15:59:39 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:00:16 Anvandare: how would that be short-circuiting? 16:00:22 Is that what short-circuiting means? I thought it was the opposite. 16:00:31 errr, i meant NON short-circuiting 16:00:35 sorry 16:01:02 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:12 preferably also in a determined way (so assuming this operator is called fand: (fand a b c d) will evaluate a, b, c, and d in that order, even if any of them returns false) 16:01:24 some/every, or member. 16:02:15 every returns false as soon as any invocation of predicate returns false 16:02:42 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 16:02:55 Anvandare: You'll have to bridge the gap. EVERY and LIST are functions, so they evaluate all their arguments. 16:03:00 pdo [~pdo@31.221.13.71] has joined #lisp 16:03:22 (every #'identity (list a b c d)) for example evaluates A B C and D in order. 16:03:59 bhaskara [~user@gw.willowgarage.com] has joined #lisp 16:04:51 ahh, i see 16:05:42 so... (and (list (fn A) (fn B) (fn C))) would first evaluate all the functions, turn the results into a list, and then go 'and' on them? 16:05:52 no. 16:05:53 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 16:05:55 :( 16:06:24 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:25 The result would always be a list of the values, since that list is non-NIL. 16:06:45 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:06:58 so... i have to apply and to the members of the list? not the list itself? 16:07:40 Anvandare: You can't apply AND. It's a macro. 16:07:52 Anvandare: the EVERY form I gave is approximately what you need. 16:07:57 You could apply (lambda (a b) (and a b)) 16:08:23 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:09:18 I see... I think. 16:09:47 *Anvandare* will never achieve Lisp-satori. :\ 16:10:20 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 16:10:53 -!- Athas [~athas@2.104.18.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:13:09 Anvandare: not with such attitude 16:13:20 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:43 nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p57AD7382.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:54 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:14:45 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:35 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 16:18:17 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:47 sixpoint [~jaykub@2002:440c:cc83:1234:fceb:72fb:1342:29c3] has joined #lisp 16:19:33 -!- kpal [~kpal@46-252-115-213.sibtele.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:20:15 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.12.6] has joined #lisp 16:20:15 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.12.6] has quit [Changing host] 16:20:15 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:20:39 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:21:34 -!- sixpoint [~jaykub@2002:440c:cc83:1234:fceb:72fb:1342:29c3] has quit [Quit: sixpoint] 16:21:36 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:13 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:22:37 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:59 i remember when i was 9 years old and i was trying to understand what on earth was loops and why we needed them :D , 2 days of frustration to understand the obvious. Learning lisp makes feel this way, like i relearn programming, strange emotion and nostalgic 16:23:47 The world has changed a lot in 4 years 16:23:52 -!- SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ngnghvhvsifivfkr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:23:52 -!- whoops [u549@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xotcelflruaurvyi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:24:18 *snort* 16:25:03 i was learning GWbasic at the time, wonder if anyone uses it nowdays, back then was quite popular 16:26:17 SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-abghwvodubbxblqg] has joined #lisp 16:26:57 *ski_* idly wonders when this was 16:27:40 ski_: 1988 16:29:07 *ski_* was learning BASIC on a pocket calculator, about then 16:29:45 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-41.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 16:30:30 sharp pc1211, the memories! 16:30:54 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-41.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 16:31:04 pocket calculator that could do programming ? 0_0 neat 16:31:17 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584627.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:31:41 some of them even had alphanumeric displays. 16:31:49 (kilon : you could also learn logic programming, constraint programming, concatenative programming, attribute grammars, dependently typed systems, &c.) 16:32:31 impressive ! but way out my league back then :D 16:33:39 i had this crappy huge gwbasic book translated into greek which made it even more crappy. It came together with my amastrad cpc 6128 , was it common back then computer to come with programming books ? 16:33:49 Yes. 16:34:02 *ski_* . o ( this one, in fact : ) 16:34:12 good old days :D , now you only get a cd if you are lucky 16:34:15 As much as I appreciate the nostalgia, I don't see what any of this has to do with Common Lisp 16:34:41 Lisp machines came with manuals. 16:34:58 ski_: oh nice 16:34:59 Too many manuals for Paul Graham's taste 16:35:19 Xach: but their sole purpose was to run lisp no ? 16:36:13 kilon: I think the purpose was to make money 16:36:24 *LiamH* still has a shelf full of the entire set of Symbolics manuals 16:36:56 "good old days", are you kidding me ? 16:37:17 -!- ehu [~erik@62.140.137.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:38:52 tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.193.184] has joined #lisp 16:41:04 kilon: are you familiar with the notion of Universal Turing Machine, and Turing Equivalence? 16:41:18 nope 16:41:29 That'd explain the silly question then. 16:42:07 Computers are approximations of Universal Turing Machine, and there's an equivalence between Universal Turing Machines, so that any computer can be used to run any program. 16:42:12 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:25 Obviously, there were compilers for C, Pascal, Fortran, etc targetting the Lisp Machines. 16:42:35 "obviously" 16:42:44 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.67.21] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:42:56 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:43:04 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.77.173] has joined #lisp 16:43:39 but computers cant run any programm, the programm has to be compiled for the machine or at least share some compatibility 16:43:39 srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:50 kilon: Hence the compilers. 16:44:15 But the point is that you can write compilers for any language/machine targetting any language/machine. 16:44:25 i knoa 16:44:30 *know 16:44:34 gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.25.20] has joined #lisp 16:46:10 according to wikipedia "Lisp machines were general-purpose computers designed (usually through hardware support) to efficiently run Lisp as their main software language." so my point was since those machines have been designed specifically for lips it made sense to come with programming manuals for lisp 16:46:23 hence my questions 16:46:27 *question 16:46:47 But their sole purpose wasn't to run lisp. 16:47:02 They didn't have a sole purpose. Computers don't have a sole purpose. 16:48:06 i am corrected then, I thought they came with only lisp bundleded 16:48:33 did not know they included other compilers too 16:49:57 Like C. 16:50:06 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:51:15 centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-162-53-63.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:53 situ [~quassel@223.179.178.63] has joined #lisp 16:52:38 kiuma [~kiuma@93-35-251-53.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:53:09 hello 16:53:13 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@cpe-72-182-70-190.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:53:23 gaidal_ [~gaidal@113.119.25.20] has joined #lisp 16:53:31 oaro [~blusvin@125.39.168.11] has joined #lisp 16:54:08 whoops [u549@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mcyspbknktfltkwa] has joined #lisp 16:54:18 has anybody ever played with http range content replies? I'm having problems with the server I'm developing 16:54:43 gaidal__ [~gaidal@113.119.25.20] has joined #lisp 16:55:07 kiuma: I have. 16:56:14 -!- situ [~quassel@223.179.178.63] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:56:34 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.20.52.215] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:56:38 could you tell me where I'm wrong ? http://paste.lisp.org/display/126898 16:56:56 mlkith [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has joined #lisp 16:57:17 I've tried to call read-byte of my range-stream, but it seams to work 16:57:37 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.25.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:57:55 Is the reply header for the second request correct ? 16:58:24 -!- gaidal_ [~gaidal@113.119.25.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:59:28 -!- oaro [~blusvin@125.39.168.11] has left #lisp 16:59:52 situ [~quassel@223.183.164.115] has joined #lisp 17:00:52 I am reading through AMOP, is there a CL equivalent of apply-method / apply-generic-function. I dont see these symbols in either closer or sb-mop nor in the CL package. I also am not noticing any obvious different spellings of these 17:01:13 bobbysmith007: apply? generic functions are functions. 17:01:30 yes just apply will work 17:01:44 kiuma: what is the status line? 17:02:31 It should be http1.1 206 ... 17:02:47 Let me better see 17:03:03 pkhuong: apply is a CL function whereas apply-method and apply-generic-function are methods that can be specialized on the type of generic function / method object 17:03:23 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-220-98.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:03:49 which AMOP implies can be used to alter the behaviour of things like call-next-method and introduce other lexical functions into method bodies 17:04:53 there's no such thing in the MOP specification 17:06:47 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [] 17:06:48 Xach, HTTP/1.1 206 Partial Content 17:09:45 can I coerce from type A to B where B is a sub type of A 17:10:20 Guthur: what would that do? 17:10:24 Guthur: implemetation dependant. 17:10:38 Guthur: there's a change-class method for CLOS objects. 17:10:53 pkhuong: I want it to be type B for dispatch purposes 17:11:09 Guthur: method dispatch is NOT done on types. 17:11:29 stassats: alright and thanks, I was reading through AMOP (non comprehensively since I was most interested in different method types / dispatch rules), and chapter 4 seems all about these. Perhaps I should skip ahead to the CLOS section 17:11:47 bobbysmith007: chapter 5 and 6 are about MOP 17:12:04 pjb: what are methods dispatch on then 17:12:08 classes 17:12:11 On classes. 17:12:22 and EQL things 17:14:35 but they are nearly synonymous. no? 17:14:40 no 17:14:43 No. 17:14:49 the spec says "Every class that has a proper name has a corresponding type with the same name. " 17:15:02 yes, but that doesn't make them close 17:15:17 Guthur: yes, but there are a lot of types that don't have any class. 17:15:32 and which can't have 17:15:32 Guthur: absolutely not. Subclassing relation is trivial to decide. Subtyping is anywhere from NP complete to undecidable depending on the subset you restrict yourself to. 17:15:47 what class is (or integer cons)? 17:15:55 or (integer 0 100) 17:16:07 (satisfies 'primep) 17:16:29 Guthur: moreover, it makes sense to ask for *the* class of a value. 17:16:53 But a value has usually an infinite number of different types. 17:17:49 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.159.134] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:18:07 -!- situ [~quassel@223.183.164.115] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:18:17 ok, thanks for the explaination 17:18:52 so, replacing type with class, is does my original query make more sense 17:19:11 Guthur: change-class. 17:19:27 Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:54 As mentionned above. 17:20:05 ok, awesome, cheers 17:20:54 oh, it says it is destuctive 17:21:18 yes, it changes the object's class. 17:21:19 does that mean it will clobber any slot values 17:21:20 That's the whole point of it. 17:21:38 Guthur: it will keep them, when you go down in the hierarchy. 17:21:43 situ [~quassel@223.186.87.55] has joined #lisp 17:22:32 ok 17:24:32 gravicappa [~gravicapp@h94-75-55-188.dyn.bashtel.ru] has joined #lisp 17:25:02 vowyer [~vowyer@71-208-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 17:25:53 Guthur: write an :after method on update-instance-for-different-class 17:26:22 Xach, do you see anything wrong in what pasted ? 17:27:41 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:29:15 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-41.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 17:29:20 Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:29:46 ddp_ [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has joined #lisp 17:29:51 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.145.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 17:32:04 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 17:32:15 -!- ddp [~ddp@93.182.131.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:32:21 -!- ddp_ is now known as ddp 17:32:32 hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279564565.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 17:33:05 kiuma: No. 17:33:43 me too, I can assume the bug is somewhere else then :/ 17:38:21 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:40:24 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.157.175] has joined #lisp 17:42:39 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:43:26 -!- rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-205-216.uio.no] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 17:43:56 gaidal_ [~gaidal@113.119.25.20] has joined #lisp 17:44:38 -!- leoncamel [~user@KD175129170046.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:44:50 -!- pdo [~pdo@31.221.13.71] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:48:19 -!- gaidal__ [~gaidal@113.119.25.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:51:36 -!- CrazyWoods [~crazywood@120.42.90.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:53:19 -!- jt123 [~jayan@cpc4-lutn3-0-0-cust768.9-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: jt123] 17:53:39 CrazyWoods [~crazywood@110.84.26.44] has joined #lisp 17:53:48 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.134.49] has joined #lisp 17:54:41 can a Common Lisp method be specialized on a keyword parameter? 17:55:39 Blkt: only required parameters may be used for specialization 17:55:52 I see, thanks 17:55:57 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-220-98.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:57:46 is there a way to give a default value to a required parameter in a method definition? 17:58:05 it would not be anymore required 17:58:10 silly question... 17:58:52 Blkt: what prompts the questions? 17:58:56 -!- CrazyWoods [~crazywood@110.84.26.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:59:08 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:59:23 -!- X-Scale [email@2001:5c0:1000:b::9eff] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:59:42 I wanted something like (defmethod foo ((a class-a) (b class-b *default-b*)) ...) 18:00:08 why? 18:00:29 if you really want that, use a wrapper function 18:00:33 Blkt: (defun foo-wrapper (a &optional (b *default-b*)) (foo a b)) 18:00:33 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@93-35-251-53.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:00:56 CrazyWoods [~crazywood@120.42.97.110] has joined #lisp 18:01:18 it seemed to me boilerplate code 18:01:35 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:00 -!- X-Scale is now known as Guest52775 18:05:30 coyo [~unf@pool-71-164-238-90.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:34 -!- coyo [~unf@pool-71-164-238-90.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:05:34 coyo [~unf@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 18:08:41 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:02 boilerplate code can be generated automatically! 18:11:39 Blkt: you could also define a method that specialized the argument on NIL though in that case you'd still have to pass NIL. 18:12:32 -!- mensch [~mensch@c-174-62-210-182.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:14:16 How can I export a reader macro ? 18:14:43 daimrod: You don't export reader macros. 18:14:58 daimrod: named-readtables is a package-like mechanism for managing reader macros. 18:15:36 ok, thanks. 18:15:37 (let ((*readtable* antoherpackage::*readtable*).. 18:15:53 -!- gaidal_ [~gaidal@113.119.25.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:16:09 it is not export, but can be help you 18:16:11 jt123 [~jayan@cpc4-lutn3-0-0-cust768.9-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:16:29 -!- dsp_ [~tt@lebesgue.cowpig.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:16:41 dsp_ [~tt@lebesgue.cowpig.ca] has joined #lisp 18:17:24 daimrod: usually packages will have a macro that enables the reader macro in a particular file 18:18:10 *Xach* has a patch for named-readtables that can use those macros to create a named-readtable, making them work with n-r even if not originally designed that way 18:18:24 *Xach* is sad that Teclo ate tcr :~( 18:18:42 -!- dsp_ [~tt@lebesgue.cowpig.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:19:43 dlowe: do you have an example, a name of a package that does it ? 18:20:23 cl-sql does it, I think 18:20:33 wu-decimals 18:21:41 dsp_ [~tt@lebesgue.cowpig.ca] has joined #lisp 18:21:55 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-220-98.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:23:15 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.185.237] has joined #lisp 18:24:05 -!- dsp_ [~tt@lebesgue.cowpig.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:24:25 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 18:25:02 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:42 -!- SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-abghwvodubbxblqg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:25:49 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 18:25:50 -!- whoops [u549@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mcyspbknktfltkwa] has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 18:26:43 dsp_ [~tt@lebesgue.cowpig.ca] has joined #lisp 18:27:23 -!- dsp_ [~tt@lebesgue.cowpig.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:27:44 gaidal_ [~gaidal@113.119.25.20] has joined #lisp 18:29:19 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@218.82.104.126] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:30:38 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 18:31:44 dsp_ [~tt@lebesgue.cowpig.ca] has joined #lisp 18:32:01 -!- saint_cypher [~rjspotter@c-76-126-70-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:32:28 Younder [~john@135.236.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 18:32:59 Anyone interested in lisp books? 18:33:12 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 18:33:13 I am interested in Lisp books. 18:33:35 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 18:33:38 I am dying from lung cancer and I have no further use of them. 18:36:07 Ok Xach I have The OO programming, by keene, PAIP, PCL, Let Over Lambda, Listp In Small Peices, The art of meta object protocol 18:36:25 Hmm, I have those too. 18:36:30 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:38:11 You would zach. Then there is TACP 1.. 4a 18:38:22 Are you serious Younder? Sorry to hear. How much are you selling them for? 18:38:23 Younder: wow, sorry to hear that. 18:40:07 felideon, Well I am thinking about 59 / 70 % for books bought the last two years, and 30 % for older ones 18:40:53 gigamonkey, well I lived an unheathy life and now i pay for it. 18:41:32 50 / 70 % for new ones 18:42:04 I would be interested in the OOPCL and AMOP mostly. Possibly PAIP. 18:42:04 Younder: Would you be able to take the trouble of sending two of them over to europe? 18:42:29 Younder: LiSP and AMOP, I'd love to get acquainted with. 18:42:40 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.137.115] has left #lisp 18:43:47 Send your bids to jpthing@online.no 18:44:06 Pavitra [~pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:30 I have two issues of AMOP 18:44:38 Great. 18:44:48 Younder: Where you be sending them from? 18:45:10 are they mostly in good condition? :) 18:45:12 Otherwise Unix and network programming 18:45:28 Felidon: Norway 18:45:58 Felidon: Supirior, like new 18:46:58 Felidon: except OOPCL by sonya Keek which looks a bit tattered 18:47:08 keen 18:47:29 Keene 18:47:57 -!- steevy [~steevy@91-67-42-157-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: quit?] 18:48:11 Then we have the art of computer programming voulums 1...3 and 4A 18:48:25 Younder: Mailed. 18:49:19 Those are expensive and I want 50 $ for each 18:49:38 silver_ [~kingrat@178.121.210.87] has joined #lisp 18:49:44 diginet [~user@ppp-70-247-43-95.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:51 hallo 18:50:29 Wait that was to much 30 dollars 18:50:41 mint condition 18:50:55 Younder: how old are you? 18:51:29 TCP/IP illustrated VOL 1 and 2 Interconnections Perlman 18:51:36 bsamograd, 45 18:51:49 Interconnections is a great book. 18:51:53 Unix network pprogramming 18:52:10 Younder: smoker? 18:52:38 well you get the picture.. just mail me at jpthing@online.no 18:52:43 Younder: my GF's mother just passed from lung cancer but she never smoked a day in her life 18:52:46 bsamograd, yes 18:52:50 -!- Guest52775 is now known as X-Scale 18:53:34 i just made a resolution to cut my smoking in half for the first 3 months and try and drop it again and hopefully be done by the middle/end of the year 18:54:08 good luck bsamograd :) 18:54:16 bsamograd: good luck as well :) 18:54:20 bsamograd: Snus is the only thing that worked for me 18:55:17 i'm trying the mathematical approach, i just hope that eventually i reach infinity :) 18:55:28 totzeit: Snus? what's that? 18:55:32 davlap [~davlap@c-24-147-211-14.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:35 Xeno never managed to quit 18:55:47 oddly I quit smoking a year ago 18:56:24 Younder: that's unfortunate... 18:56:24 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:56:38 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:57:05 well I smoke again today when I found uout I have 3 months 18:57:45 who the fuck cares 18:57:46 bsamograd: Like dip, but better and cleaner. I can't make it sound appealing, but it's great. www.snuscentral.org 18:58:17 bsamograd: beware the Zeno paradox 18:58:20 i was thinking of picking up an electric cigarette to try 18:58:30 Anyhow if you like maths I have a great maths collection as well 18:58:30 stassats`: yes, with smoking, i could see that happening 18:59:42 I like math 19:00:01 I aprticularly like category theory, but if you want lamda caluclus I have that too 19:00:37 Athas` [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 19:00:40 Younder: sorry I wasn't here earlier, why are you trying to get rid of your books? 19:00:57 diginet, yes 19:01:11 -!- ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has left #lisp 19:01:32 what do you mean by yes? 19:01:34 diginet: lung cancer 19:01:41 oh, I'm so sorry. 19:01:56 ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has joined #lisp 19:01:58 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 19:02:00 This is hopeless, I will make a list on a website I have and then you can bit on my email 19:02:10 BID 19:02:12 -!- mlkith [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:02:15 *felideon* sent you the email too 19:02:21 Oh okay. What's your site? 19:03:27 http://home.online.no/~jpthing/index.html 19:04:00 thanks 19:04:02 Just give me a while to list the books.. There are hundreds 19:04:21 spread the word 19:05:07 no problem 19:05:36 where are you located? (just to get an idea on shipping and what not) 19:05:53 diginet, Norway 19:06:13 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:06:21 Shipping for a book is about 10 dollars 19:06:33 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-41.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 19:06:43 or 5 depending on the thickness 19:07:11 Are they in English? I sadly don't speak Norweigian. (Perhaps a stupid question) 19:07:34 I'm US-based (predictibly) 19:07:43 diginet, yes, they are all in english 19:08:15 Ah okay, I'll inform anyone I know of who might be interested, once you get your list up 19:08:24 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:08:49 -!- gaidal_ [~gaidal@113.119.25.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:08:58 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 19:09:39 Ok I have three bids for OOPCL (Keene) -- $8 19:09:39 AMOP (Kiczales) -- $15 19:11:25 Hm. I sent you a joint bid for two books, shall I split it up? 19:12:16 emen.I will create a separate cite for bidding so we don't disturb the good gentlemen 19:12:19 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@h94-75-55-188.dyn.bashtel.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:13:30 ebay? 19:14:09 undernet 19:14:14 I have the following class hierarchy A <- B <- C, B & C both have :around initialisation methods and a get from C to B by calling call-next-method, when I try to get from B to A with the same, call-next-method, it seems to go recursive 19:15:12 C is the superclass? 19:15:32 undernet #john-things 19:15:40 stassats: nope A, I couldn't decide on the convention of the arrows 19:16:16 I seem to remember it going towards the less specific class in some standard of notation 19:16:40 -!- chenbing [~user@115.206.199.178] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:16:52 chenbing [~user@115.206.199.178] has joined #lisp 19:16:55 if that is the reason you asked 19:17:29 the reason i asked is to resolve the ambiguity 19:17:32 uml makes it point from the subclass to the superclass. that's the way you did it now. 19:17:39 but i don't get the prose, can you paste the code? 19:18:24 stassats`: i'll put an example together 19:21:03 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:22:33 gaidal_ [~gaidal@113.119.25.20] has joined #lisp 19:23:23 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-184-147.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:26:41 rudi_ [~rudi@cm-84.208.89.228.getinternet.no] has joined #lisp 19:27:09 -!- rudi_ is now known as rudi 19:27:36 oh it works fine with the simple example 19:27:53 I must have a stray method definition around somewhere 19:28:10 SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iqabjleajafahgoy] has joined #lisp 19:28:11 or something equally silly 19:28:15 that's what i was expecting 19:28:33 whoops [u549@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bqdmmushizjijzjh] has joined #lisp 19:28:40 sorry, I should have work the simple example first 19:28:45 worked* 19:29:58 realitygrill [~realitygr@204.38.4.80] has joined #lisp 19:30:47 steevy [~steevy@91-67-42-157-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:32:14 CaZe [~CaZe@unaffiliated/y354c] has joined #lisp 19:32:17 hydo [~hydo@c-71-227-138-93.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:18 -!- hydo [~hydo@c-71-227-138-93.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:36:46 phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:36:46 -!- phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Changing host] 19:36:46 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 19:37:15 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:16 gaidal__ [~gaidal@113.119.25.20] has joined #lisp 19:37:42 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.145.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:38:52 hey people 19:38:55 http://paste.lisp.org/display/126899 19:39:11 any ideas of how to cut the code down please? 19:39:22 any help is much appreciated :) thanks 19:39:33 jt123: (let (foo) (let (bar) -> (let (foo bar) 19:40:04 jt123: we dont useCamelCase, this-style-is-preferred 19:40:23 jt123: don't use (if .. (progn. use cond instead 19:40:29 jt123: the final form of a function is the value of that function. no need to have (defun foo () ... (return-from foo bar)) 19:40:39 (defun foo () ... bar) suffices 19:40:51 -!- gaidal_ [~gaidal@113.119.25.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:41:04 jt123: cond clauses have an implicit progn 19:41:17 jt123: you use way too many setf's 19:41:22 jt123: It would be easier to offer high-level suggestions for improvment if there was a high-level description of the idea. 19:41:38 I can't tell what your code is for very quickly. 19:42:00 Please don't message me privately with the answer. 19:42:17 Maybe you could annotate the paste with some kind of high-level problem description. 19:43:01 jt123: we don't put closing parens on a separate line, ever 19:43:10 jt123: and also, please don't privmsg me either. 19:43:17 -!- jt123 [~jayan@cpc4-lutn3-0-0-cust768.9-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #lisp 19:43:24 jt123 [~jayan@cpc4-lutn3-0-0-cust768.9-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:43:24 -!- jt123 [~jayan@cpc4-lutn3-0-0-cust768.9-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #lisp 19:43:25 and he's out 19:43:27 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:43:40 jt123 [~jayan@cpc4-lutn3-0-0-cust768.9-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:43:55 hey guys thanks for the help 19:44:08 just got logged out and lost those suggestions 19:44:30 and chance someone could private message me a copy of the conversation? 19:44:31 thanks 19:44:39 jt123: no. find the logs. 19:44:55 jt123: also, you should read some code and a good book on lisp. your program looks pretty bad. 19:45:14 http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/2012-01/lisp-2012.01.06.txt has a transcript of our wisdom 19:45:37 H4ns: what do you mea? 19:45:46 Xach: thsnks 19:45:59 jt123: i mean it is very hard to read because of the large number of destructive operations and conditionals. 19:46:22 jt123: and that set aside, it seems that you don't know lisp very well. you should learn more, by reading books and code. 19:46:41 yeah im pretty new to it 19:47:01 jt123: what makes you think that you need all these progns? :) 19:48:49 H4ns: it evaluates a list of expressions in sequence and returns the last one right? 19:49:02 H4ns: what should I use instead then? 19:49:34 jt123: most constructs have an implicit progn. if is the exception, and instead of using if+progn, we use cond. 19:50:51 H4ns: so where I have used progn... i can just get rid of it? 19:50:58 z` [~zmv@186.204.156.99] has joined #lisp 19:51:07 -!- zmv [~zmv@186.204.156.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:51:14 unless its with if where I should replace it with cond? 19:51:16 jt123: mostly. 19:51:19 jt123: yes 19:52:26 H4ns: ah right thanks 19:53:07 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:53:25 cond is there are more that two conditions 19:53:26 + 19:53:38 jt123: you should learn something about the "and" and "or" operators 19:53:46 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:54:00 H4ns: what do you mean? 19:55:06 so many nested lets 19:55:16 or and and are short circuit so they can function as boolean dessions 19:55:30 (if (foo) (if (bar) -> (if (and (foo) (bar)) 19:55:56 (or (first) (or else second)) 19:56:26 (and (first) (and then second)) 19:56:38 add^_ [~add^_^@m90-141-46-62.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 19:56:48 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 19:56:49 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:56:50 clearer jt123 19:57:05 Younder: thanks 19:57:09 -!- ngz [~user@23.78.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:57:17 what are and and or used in place of? 19:57:31 jt123: also, if there is no else clause, use when or unless (rule: use the most specific operator) 19:57:36 if obviously 19:58:51 and when and unless 19:59:32 still use when unless or unless when it seems clearer 20:01:02 you don't need return-from, the value of the las evaluated expression is returned 20:01:16 *last 20:02:16 Bandereicht The lanbda calulus 20:02:17 Sergei Lang algebre (mont everest of algebra books) 20:02:17 Myerson Game theory (Nobel Price Winner 2005) 20:02:17 Boeme Fuzzy logic 20:02:17 Silverman Arithmetric of eliptic curves 20:02:17 gaidal_ [~gaidal@113.119.25.20] has joined #lisp 20:02:17 Barsley Fractals eveywhere 20:02:19 Jones groups representations and physics 20:02:21 wallace Groups rings and fielsd 20:02:23 Munkers Topolology 20:02:25 Heather Algebraic topology 20:02:27 Goldbatt Topi And A categorical analysis of logic) Recommended 20:02:29 pierrce basic calulus 20:02:31 Adowey Category theory 20:02:33 Edwards Penny Calculus and analything geomery (ancient) 20:02:35 Younder: too much 20:02:35 Davison Real analysis with real applications' 20:02:37 Braun differentail equations 20:02:39 Anton Elementary Linear Algebra 20:02:41 Ocamo Differential geometry of corved surfaces 20:02:43 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 20:02:43 Spivar A comprehensive Introduction to differentail geometry Vol 1 and II 20:02:48 Lewis Elements from the theory of computationwasserman All of statistica 20:02:48 -!- Younder [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has been kicked from #lisp by Xach (Paste elsewhere) 20:02:53 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 20:03:10 that was a bit rude 20:03:19 vowyer: what? 20:03:39 vowyer: thanks 20:03:40 Younder [~john@135.236.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:04:00 Xach, sorry that WAs too much 20:04:21 -!- Athas` [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:04:27 Anyhow that is what I am selling of Math books 20:04:33 -!- steevy [~steevy@91-67-42-157-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: quit?] 20:04:37 Younder: why not just put a link up? 20:05:43 Younder: do you have any physics or computer science stuff? 20:05:49 -!- gaidal__ [~gaidal@113.119.25.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:05:52 or, language? 20:05:55 gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.25.20] has joined #lisp 20:06:05 (as in human language) 20:06:09 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-162-53-63.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:06:54 My paste should be available at http://paste.lisp.org/+2PX0. 20:07:04 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.134.49] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:07:11 diginet, yes a lot of that too 20:07:14 can we please keep this to #YounderGiveway or something? 20:07:33 -!- gaidal_ [~gaidal@113.119.25.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:07:38 saint_cypher [~rjspotter@208.178.63.106] has joined #lisp 20:08:08 20:15:32 < Younder> undernet #john-things 20:08:15 That's the channel. 20:08:34 correct 20:11:02 centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-162-53-63.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:32 -!- situ [~quassel@223.186.87.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:14:21 -!- vowyer [~vowyer@71-208-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:15:59 -!- ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:16:16 ddp [~ddp@anon-157-36.relakks.com] has joined #lisp 20:17:52 Anyone got a good synonym for 'classification' if I want to distinguish between the classification a comment has been given (ham or spam) by a human vs the classification the spam filter computes for messages not explicitly classified? 20:18:12 situ [~quassel@223.183.153.116] has joined #lisp 20:18:38 taxonomy? 20:18:45 err 20:19:17 only read the first part when I said that 20:19:20 let me think 20:19:30 whats the diffirence between defvar and defparameter ? they both define globals right ? 20:20:39 kilon, defparameter get redefined each time the file get's reloded, defvar only once. 20:20:41 kilon: defvar does not reset the initial value. 20:21:10 defparameter is like defvar-unless-bound 20:21:14 so let me see if i understand, defparameter overwrites a value but defvar does not ? 20:21:22 oops, the other way around. 20:21:46 kilon: As long as it's already been bound, yes. 20:22:06 gigamonkey: verdict, rating, computed-value, classification 20:22:08 kilon: here's a way to think about it: use defparameter to define variables that you, the programmer set; use defvar to define variables that the running program sets. 20:22:13 gigamonkey: i'd probably go for human-spamp and computer-spamp but it's not exactly what you mean i think 20:22:19 ok , thanks... damn and i read that earlier in LOL and forget about it, my bad memory 20:22:26 gigamonkey: (setf spamp t) when a human does it? :) 20:22:26 rudi: verdict, I like. 20:22:58 or that.. 20:23:00 gigamonkey: why overwriting values is a bad thing for a running programm ? 20:23:22 gigamonkey: designation? 20:23:29 diginet: also good 20:24:13 gigamonkey: you could use something like "heuristic designation" and "human designation 20:24:22 kilon: it's not bad. It's just that some variables hold values that are there to control the program. e.g. (defparameter *max-threads* 10) while others hold data that is built up while the program runs e.g. (defvar *spam-features-seen* (make-hash-table)) 20:24:23 since heuristic sort of implies algorithmic sorting 20:24:38 In general use defparameter, it is usually what you want 20:24:41 The former, if you change the value and recompile you want it to change. 20:25:09 The latter, if you recompile the file that contains the defvar you probably don't want it to wipe out the hashtable that you may have stored useful data in. 20:25:50 white-cat [~sbenitezb@71-208-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 20:25:55 aha ok i see thanks, so essentially defvar provides constant variable or am i wrong because keywords do the same thing ? 20:25:59 I meen how often do you want to shut down the lisp system to see the difference in value 20:26:29 kilon: keywords don't do that. 20:26:35 kilon: it's most certainly not a constant, you'd use defconstant for that. 20:26:56 kilon: in general, use defparameter when you're tempted to use defconstant, otherwise use defvar 20:26:56 keywords dont define variables that cant change ? 20:27:04 kilon: they do not. 20:27:06 keywords are values 20:27:12 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 20:27:18 which happen to not change. 20:27:18 :| 20:27:51 -!- dtw [dtw@dsl-roibrasgw1-fe84fb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: +++ATH0] 20:27:57 keywords are symbols in the KEYWORD package which have the property that they are always bound to themselves 20:28:02 so they just represent values, they are symbols that represent values ? 20:28:06 what server and web hosting are you using to host your common lisp web application? I'm writing a web app with hunchentoot but I have no idea where can I host it 20:28:18 osa1__: I rent a server from LeaseWeb 20:28:34 osa1__: I used to rent a server from peer1/serverbeach but would not recommend them 20:28:37 osa1__: linode 20:28:41 :symbol go into the symbol package... Very usefull 20:28:41 linode :) 20:28:42 -!- situ [~quassel@223.183.153.116] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:28:46 isnt it what C++ constants do too ? i thought constant anyway it was a symbol representing a value 20:28:48 I've been happy with them. 20:29:05 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:29:14 thanks. 20:29:15 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.25.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:29:24 I personally love Plists. I think classes are overused 20:29:24 kilon: keywords are constants in the sense that they don't change. But they can't represent arbitrary values. 20:29:40 (defconstant +not-very-big-number+ 23) 20:30:05 vs :not-very-big-number whose (constant) value is just the symbol :not-very-big-number 20:31:13 the way i understood constants is that they were just symbols that the compiler replaced them with numbers and they cant change 20:31:25 *with values 20:31:26 kilon: yes. And keywords are not that. 20:31:32 osa1__: i have a server at home which is used --amongst others-- as a common lisp web server. recently i have access to a server at Hetzner as well (which is vastly better) 20:31:33 kilon, not neccesairly 20:31:48 That's what defconstant creates. 20:32:14 so then keywords are not constants . what diffirent they have ? 20:32:38 This is probably wrongheaded but ... is there a way to wrap a function so that if something explodes and drops the user to the restart menu and automatic selection (retry in this case) gets selected once or thrice before actually dropping the user to the debugger? I have a nasty bug I'm dealing with where things explode once in a blue moon and are always "remedied" by selecting retry. (for another 900,00 to 20:32:40 1,000,000 iterations anyway) 20:32:57 derrida: sure. 20:33:01 s/and automatic/an automatic/ 20:33:06 :D 20:33:08 osa1__: i wouldn't be surprised if setting up something in the likes of Heroku for Common Lisp sites at a low cost would be financially viable 20:33:14 derrida: handler-bind can do that by using find-restart/invoke-restart in a handler 20:33:23 derrida: I need your help, though! 20:33:26 excellent! 20:33:28 certainly! 20:33:29 derrida: Do you still have the issue with lispbuilder-sdl? 20:33:34 so gigamonkey if i understan your example a keywords values is its own name ? 20:33:43 I just saw your highlight from earlier, I was about to try your suggestion 20:33:50 *keyword / value 20:33:52 ok, please let me know how it goes. 20:33:55 Xach: I'm still on the older version ql 20:34:00 ok. 20:34:08 Xach: k, definitely. 20:34:32 madnificent: for now we don't have a solution like Heroku, right? I have no idea about system administration and this will be my first. are you using hunchentoot as web server? 20:34:34 kilon: it's more like "itself" than like "its own name" 20:34:59 madnificent: itself meaning being a symbol ? 20:35:01 osa1__: yes I am. no we currently don't have something of the likes AFAIK 20:35:24 kilon: yup, if you enter :foo in the repl, you get the symbol :foo back :) 20:35:34 ok thanks i understand now 20:35:36 madnificent: unless you're using ccl 20:35:46 H4ns: explain please :) 20:35:54 madnificent: just try it 20:36:09 madnificent: ccl's repl uses keywords as commands, as it appears 20:36:15 *H4ns* was just surprised by that 20:36:40 *madnificent* doesn't have CCL readily available it seems (odd) 20:37:26 i do, it's name is just not ccl yet 20:37:37 H4ns: you're right! 20:37:50 madnificent: thank you for letting me know! 20:37:55 gniourf_gniourf [~Gniourf@2a01:e35:2433:3b90:222:41ff:fe23:8d8e] has joined #lisp 20:37:56 sorry 20:38:01 -!- white-cat [~sbenitezb@71-208-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:38:11 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:38:19 i was wondering if the standard allowed such behavior but i don't really want to get into it now 20:38:40 H4ns: (progn :foo) does the trick though 20:39:06 Kron_ [~Kron@199.91.212.106] has joined #lisp 20:39:12 madnificent: I'm pretty sure the standard doesn't even require a REPL so I'd imagine pretty much anything goes. 20:40:05 kilon: for what it's worth: :foo is the same as 'keyword:foo 20:40:25 H4ns: interesting. in SLIME REPL :foo => :FOO, but not at the terminal (ccl64 on os x) 20:40:51 madnificent: syntactic sugar ? 20:41:11 kilon: yup 20:41:20 keyword symbols and the keyword package are treated specially in several ways. 20:41:49 when the current package is the standard one named KEYWORD, keyword symbols are still printed with a leading package marker. 20:43:35 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 20:45:53 felideon: the slime repl does not use the standard repl. 20:46:26 jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:57 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:47:45 ah 20:50:02 vigil [~vigil@adsl-074-229-197-048.sip.mco.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:58 -!- CrazyWoods [~crazywood@120.42.97.110] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:52:09 marsell [~marsell@120.18.169.63] has joined #lisp 20:53:23 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 20:54:10 -!- osa1__ [~sinan@78.173.124.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:59:51 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:03:07 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:07:20 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A2349.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:08:27 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@79.Red-88-7-134.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 21:10:03 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:44 -!- Younder [~john@135.236.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:12:02 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:12:21 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 21:15:44 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:51 rme [~rme@50.43.137.115] has joined #lisp 21:20:52 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@204.38.4.80] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 21:21:04 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 21:24:35 Frozenlo` [~user@cable-quebec-15.246.173-179.electronicbox.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:17 realitygrill [~realitygr@204.38.4.80] has joined #lisp 21:27:51 -!- Frozenlock [~user@cable-quebec-15.246.173-179.electronicbox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:33:12 Younder [~john@135.236.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:35:18 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@204.38.4.80] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 21:47:08 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA229B7.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:49:06 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:50:17 bobbysmith007: The MOP generic function you'll want to look into to "alter the behaviour of things like call-next-method and introduce other lexical functions into method bodies" is MAKE-METHOD-LAMBDA: http://www.alu.org/mop/dictionary.html#make-method-lambda 21:51:29 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.185.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:54:43 kilon: also (symbol-value :foo) -> :FOO 21:55:38 -!- Frozenlo` [~user@cable-quebec-15.246.173-179.electronicbox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:55:56 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-184-147.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:56:22 thanks Phoodus 22:01:20 is anyone else here using lispbuilder? 22:01:39 i do but i am utter nob with it 22:01:43 not me 22:01:48 I'm having some trouble isntalling. I compile without a hitch, it seemingly sets everything up. But whenever I restart it's gone 22:01:59 as in, restart sbcl 22:02:14 diginet: this is normal, you've to quickload. 22:02:23 oh, you have to load first? 22:02:29 yes. 22:02:38 i.e. download everytime? 22:02:43 no. 22:02:57 i got into ldb after it seems beirc tried to gc things for when irc timed out....(it didn't reconnect ofc, as it was not setup for...) 22:03:20 oh, I see what you mean, quickload locally 22:03:44 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:03:52 diginet: yup, ~/quickload/dist/quickload/softwares/lispbuilder-.../ 22:04:02 Cosman246 [~cosman246@D-173-250-159-227.dhcp4.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 22:04:36 I'm loving quicklisp, such an improvement! 22:04:43 asdf-install was a nightmare 22:05:16 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 22:16:06 gensym [~user@dslc-082-082-103-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:53 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-139-212.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:25 -!- Cosman246 [~cosman246@D-173-250-159-227.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:17:42 Cosman246 [~cosman246@D-173-250-159-227.dhcp4.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 22:21:16 -!- jjkola [~jjkola@xdsl-83-150-83-66.nebulazone.fi] has quit [Quit: Lähdössä] 22:22:08 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:25:09 -!- sacho_ [~sacho@95-42-91-219.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:25:52 gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.25.20] has joined #lisp 22:27:01 -!- gensym [~user@dslc-082-082-103-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 22:31:18 music to my ears 22:31:31 -!- Cosman246 [~cosman246@D-173-250-159-227.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:34:13 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:36:08 Xach: are you the same as Zach of quicklisp? If so, thanks so much for making it :) 22:36:18 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:11 -!- kilon [~user@athedsl-411578.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:38:19 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:39:58 diginet: he is. 22:40:09 -!- saint_cypher [~rjspotter@208.178.63.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:41:15 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:42:13 fugue88 [~dsowen@173-165-137-65-utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:35 diginet: That's me 22:44:05 gaidal_ [~gaidal@113.119.25.20] has joined #lisp 22:44:43 sacho_ [~sacho@95-42-91-219.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 22:46:56 nicdev_ [user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:4986] has joined #lisp 22:47:41 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 22:47:51 -!- silver_ [~kingrat@178.121.210.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:47:59 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.25.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:48:38 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!] 22:49:13 -!- gaidal_ [~gaidal@113.119.25.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 22:51:00 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-147-204-196.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:51:28 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-24-218-165-162.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:51:47 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-24-218-165-162.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:47 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:00:58 silver_ [~kingrat@178.121.254.43] has joined #lisp 23:02:20 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:05:17 derrida: i really think this will fix it. 23:05:32 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-162-53-63.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:09:01 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-155-127.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:12 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m90-141-46-62.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 23:12:40 Guthur [~user@host86-147-204-196.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:15:17 -!- Anvandare [hraban@78-21-54-54.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:15:20 -!- rudi [~rudi@cm-84.208.89.228.getinternet.no] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 23:15:47 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:18:30 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:24:37 -!- z` [~zmv@186.204.156.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:29:40 -!- nha [~prefect@p3E9E3262.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:30:07 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:33:42 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:35:49 -!- coyo [~unf@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Quit: Heaven isnt a place, Bartleby, it's being with people who love you.] 23:36:51 -!- felideon [~user@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:45:11 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-184-147.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:51:17 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-161-113.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:55:28 NihilistDandy [~NihilistD@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:47 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:59:22 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp