00:00:19 -!- p8m [~dmm@64.15.82.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:01:31 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.190.39.231] has joined #lisp 00:02:43 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0D15.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 00:04:06 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.116.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:04:06 -!- steevy [~steevy@91-67-42-157-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: quit?] 00:12:05 -!- Snaffu [~snaffu@oh-69-34-16-39.sta.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: Snaffu] 00:12:43 SlayersZ [~SlayersZ@70.65.233.0] has joined #lisp 00:12:51 anyone here tried scheme? 00:13:02 SlayersZ: probably many. but probably more in #scheme. 00:14:08 *Xach* tried scheme long ago 00:15:17 SlayersZ: scheme is cool, but unless that's a very general question, you should probably rather ask it in #scheme 00:15:47 guessing you guys like lisp more than scheme? 00:16:00 SlayersZ: i like common lisp more than scheme 00:16:13 both lisp and scheme look very similar 00:16:34 I had a fun time with prolog xD 00:16:35 SlayersZ: there is no single language named "lisp" any more 00:16:43 oh? that sucks xD 00:16:48 scheme is scheme, common lisp is common lisp 00:17:08 -!- agumonkey [agumonkey@8.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:17:17 can't common lisp be called lisp xD 00:17:26 SlayersZ: in this channel, yeah. 00:17:45 but it's confusing if you're talking about more than one lisp-style language at the same time 00:18:46 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.19.108] has joined #lisp 00:19:00 Xach: I thought people had the whole Lisp = Common Lisp, LISP = family thing going on 00:20:23 That is not my experience. 00:20:50 LISP = "I don't know shit about Lisp activity in the past 20 years", "Lisp" = "Lisp-the-platonic language idea" 00:21:18 designing your own language would be cool 00:21:35 Sure beats learning an existing one well 00:22:18 well, there is a language called just "Lisp". "Lisp 1.5" :P. 00:22:27 aliasxerog [~mveety@thefoundry.csh.rit.edu] has joined #lisp 00:22:32 I doubt anyone still uses it, though. :) 00:23:23 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.128] has joined #lisp 00:24:25 Modius` [~user@cpe-70-123-128-240.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:25:22 zmv: Isn't that "LISP 1.5" though? Oh well, I'm going to bed, I've got nothing else to do than sleep anyway 00:25:38 -!- SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gaggfenkmimcvwog] has quit [] 00:25:46 SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ymulrttjkfsapbnb] has joined #lisp 00:26:06 akovalenko: is GC invariant lost, file "thread.c", line 1382 a Win32 thing or a generic SBCL thing? I can crash the server over time with a DOS attack. . . . 00:26:33 -!- Neban [~neban@177.Red-79-156-36.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Neban] 00:27:14 Actually, probably less a D.O.S. attack than just requesting/closing connection to the web server. 00:27:15 Modius`: it's in my code, at least 00:27:28 -!- SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ymulrttjkfsapbnb] has quit [Client Quit] 00:27:46 SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rivwbghafhdkjroj] has joined #lisp 00:27:53 how is a loop invariant found :/ 00:29:09 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-187-52.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:32:15 SlayersZ: "In computer science, a loop invariant is an invariant used to prove properties of loops. Informally, a loop invariant is a statement of the conditions that should be true on entry into a loop and that are guaranteed to remain true on every iteration of the loop. This means that on exit from the loop both the loop invariant and the loop termination condition can be guaranteed." 00:33:18 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0D15.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:33:29 SlayersZ: you, as a person, reason on what the loop does, until you find the invariants :) 00:34:08 -!- ericeatsbrains [~ericeatsb@173-164-222-106-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:35:04 nialo [~nialo@ool-18ba42b5.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:26 SlayersZ: If I've understood it correctly: while (x<10) x:=x+1;, x<10 is the invariant. Basically some predicate which needs to be true before doing the next iteration of a loop 00:36:26 ericeatsbrains [~ericeatsb@173-164-222-106-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:45 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:37:53 -!- ejbs [~user@d83-183-51-82.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:38:17 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:38:45 Snaffu [~snaffu@oh-69-34-16-39.sta.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:47 -!- Snaffu [~snaffu@oh-69-34-16-39.sta.embarqhsd.net] has left #lisp 00:39:26 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 00:41:24 -!- ly- [~ly_@unaffiliated/ly-] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:41:55 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-23-174.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:43:07 -!- SlayersZ [~SlayersZ@70.65.233.0] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:43:31 kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-38-28.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 00:43:54 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:47:08 SlayersZ [~SlayersZ@70.65.233.0] has joined #lisp 00:55:23 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A40B3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:58:02 -!- The_third_man [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:58:02 The_third_bug [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:27 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:06:11 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-190-233-246.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:06:59 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.204.55] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:07:10 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.204.55] has joined #lisp 01:11:56 -!- bwright [~bwright@c122-106-254-100.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:16:35 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:24:13 -!- Cosman246 [~cosman246@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:24:16 -!- YuleAthas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:24:35 rme [~rme@50.43.147.52] has joined #lisp 01:24:45 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA036E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 01:25:27 -!- Cryotank2011 [~Cryotank2@c-24-17-62-152.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Cryotank2011] 01:25:30 bwright [~bwright@c122-106-254-100.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:46:04 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-187-52.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:46:46 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:46:51 -!- jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:56:28 wanderingelf [4817e03b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.23.224.59] has joined #lisp 01:56:53 -!- zmv [~zmv@c953345a.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:59:48 rjj [~rjj@cpe-76-90-79-73.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:00:31 kennyd_ [~kennyd@93-141-38-28.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 02:02:01 H4ns: looks like there is some progress on modernclad, eh? 02:03:32 What is that? 02:03:48 zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:20 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:04:20 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-38-28.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:04:21 LiamH [~healy@pool-108-18-171-26.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:43 spike2251 [~user@c-76-24-24-228.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:07:57 patches to ironclad so it compiles & loads & modern mode 02:08:00 "modern" mode 02:08:47 just out of curiosity, why isn't there a common lisp compiler/interpreter written in common lisp? 02:10:42 there is plenty 02:11:08 -!- nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:11:22 -!- compmstr [~compmstr@cpe-74-68-138-100.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:11:24 I mean I just ran cloc on sbcl and ccl and I was just pretty surprised 02:13:04 What were the numbers if you don't mind. 02:13:04 spike2251: the compilers/interpreters for ccl and sbcl are written in Common Lisp. 02:13:46 in SBCL, the GC and some bits for interfacing with the OS are written in C 02:14:22 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 02:14:24 I don't know how accurate it is, but http://www.ohloh.net/p/ccl/analyses/latest says that of about 400 KLOC, 82% of that is in CL. (The rest being mainly C and assembly.) 02:15:22 spike2251: I'd imagine the LOCs are so large because CL is huge. 02:15:30 I guess there is something wrong with cloc, cause this is what I see: https://gist.github.com/1495129 02:15:30 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-187-52.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:15:57 Yes, there is something wrong. 02:16:02 Yep 02:17:14 oops, guess I should question my tools more often 02:17:54 -!- snearch [~snearch@e178191053.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 02:18:14 I ran cloc somewhere else, and I thought I was using it right/it counted lisp files correctly 02:19:28 I usually use some combination of find xargs and wc -l 02:22:58 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 02:23:36 wadexing [~wadexing@219.234.141.122] has joined #lisp 02:25:25 hah, I just noticed in the topic that ABCL hit 1.0 02:25:30 congrats on that 02:27:05 Very nice to see a strong ABCL crowd at ECLM 02:27:08 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:27:54 about cloc, is there any tool written for Lisp specially? perhaps counting s-expressions, nesting depth or so 02:32:01 it would be interesting, and similarly for pmccabe 02:32:35 I don't know 02:33:11 Maybe a specialized operation in asdf to go through the lisp source file compontents and count the sexp 02:33:25 but that's also a probably a bad idea 02:35:56 -!- kennyd_ [~kennyd@93-141-38-28.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:35:58 mccabe's complexity reports may not to be quite satisfactory due to macros, I don't know 02:36:40 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:36:52 Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483B1BE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:15 Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #lisp 02:38:29 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483CBB4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:38:53 teggi [148b9232@gateway/web/freenode/ip.20.139.146.50] has joined #lisp 02:40:01 _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has joined #lisp 02:43:05 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-18ba42b5.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:45:11 what's a lispy way of concatenating a list of strings into one string, with a chosen character in between each string? (e.g. #\, or #\newline) 02:45:50 emit: format's ~{ is an easy way. 02:46:32 nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:42 e.g. (format nil "~{~A~^, ~}" '("hi" "woo" "hallo")) 02:47:49 do i do with-output-to-string with that? 02:48:00 no. (format nil ...) returns a string 02:48:01 oh nil 02:48:05 i just saw that 02:48:07 thank you 02:51:15 Modius`: I hope you'll have some time for stress-testing of new sbcl/win32 [*100.mswinmt.1149] 02:52:17 Modius`: ..or current git HEAD, if you build from sources. 02:52:45 akovalenko: You betcha 02:52:58 akovalenko: I need a different IRC client, pure luck that I saw your message 02:53:09 I never got it building 02:53:27 What did you change? I'm trying to get a repeat of the hunchentoot crash by making it out of sb-bsd-sockets 02:53:32 well, new binaries are already there 02:53:58 I've fixed a race condition that manifested itself in "assertion failed" (well, I think so) 02:54:36 also, if we compare to 1147, heap overflow should be much less probable 02:54:39 You mean the "GC Invariant Lost"? 02:54:43 yes 02:55:13 it's named gc_assert in the sources, and I've forgotten what it prints exactly :) 02:55:17 We should probably connect via email unless I put a new IRC client on. 02:56:01 This is pretty damn solid though, it really needs to start going back into SBCL. 02:56:51 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:57:06 Modius`: if everything works fine, you can drop me an email. OTOH, if something crashes, it's better to report it on github issue tracker :) 02:57:29 Is it appropriate for me to give you a repeat case/app vis-a-vis a full tree that includes hunchentoot if the crash repeats? 02:58:34 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:59:45 Modius`: well, for /this/ kind of bugs, any amount of data about your environment doesn't help too much in reproducing them 03:00:17 akovalenko: Is that a yes or a no? 03:00:38 Modius`: report problems in *any* form that is convenient for you. 03:00:51 Does github accept files attached to the bug reports? 03:01:14 no idea (I have never seen attachments there) 03:01:20 -!- SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rivwbghafhdkjroj] has quit [] 03:01:35 SeanTAllen [~SeanTAlle@cpe-98-14-83-126.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:01:48 -!- teggi [148b9232@gateway/web/freenode/ip.20.139.146.50] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:05:19 -!- SeanTAllen [~SeanTAlle@cpe-98-14-83-126.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:05:33 SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bchnqrwnlzstfujz] has joined #lisp 03:06:30 X-Scale` [email@89.180.132.223] has joined #lisp 03:07:10 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 03:07:16 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:07:20 -!- X-Scale [email@2001:5c0:1000:b::9eff] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 03:07:42 Modius`: ah, found a memory leak (128 bytes per thread) 03:08:48 -!- davazp [~user@89.100.226.133] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:09:43 Haha, you're working in overdrive just from knowing SBCL/Win64 is under the microscope :) 03:10:11 teggi [148b9232@gateway/web/freenode/ip.20.139.146.50] has joined #lisp 03:10:16 Modius`: all these issues are independent of word size 03:10:42 Modius`: well, it's easier to exhaust a 512Mb heap than a 8GiB one, but otherwise it's all the same 03:11:11 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 03:11:14 Good point, I'll have to run the long-term tests on a VM so that the limit is memory not disk thrash. 03:11:22 sbcl hard-limits to 8GB? 03:11:33 iDespera` [~user@112.94.175.105] has joined #lisp 03:12:16 64-bit SBCL will give you more if you ask (--dynamic-space-size 12GiB, for example). There will be a problem with Windows, probably. 03:12:35 -!- X-Scale` [email@89.180.132.223] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:12:41 Or I assume I can shrink it way down in order to look for leaks. . . 03:13:00 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:03 yes, that's a good method. 03:13:56 well, the leak I found is outside the heap (it's a critical section + malloc, and it can exhaust NT kernel objects before it exhausts memory) 03:14:48 Did you get Winxx-SBCL able to save an image? What about make a standalone EXE? 03:15:17 Modius`: (save-lisp-and-die ... :executable t) 03:15:26 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 03:15:53 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:16:37 Modius`: it works in the official windows versions as well. My binaries also have core compression enabled, so :compression 9 can be used in save-lisp-and-die too 03:17:24 I've limited experience with SBCL (on linux, where I *have* used save-lisp-and-die) but almost none with Win32 threads (without threads I didn't really look at it) 03:17:39 I mean, almost no experience with SBCL/win32 as it had no threads. 03:17:40 Modius`: w.r.t. compression, it might be important to know that you can have either compression or shared image mapping for multiple processes, but not both 03:18:19 akovalenko: What does that mean? 03:19:23 you compress the image (exe or core, it doesn't matter) with :compression 9, then you start 10 SBCLs => it uses 10* of memory 03:20:00 Aah, otherwise it could use it from shared space from the original mem-mapping of the executable. . . 03:20:01 or you don't compress the image, it gets bigger, => 10 SBCLs share unmodified pages, 03:20:56 So there's a tradeoff here. (I provide uncompressed binaries in MSI, and compressed binaries as standalone executables) 03:21:36 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:21:55 Where do people discuss this fork? SBCL mailing list, or is there something else? 03:22:14 sometimes it happens in SBCL mailing list, sometimes on #sbcl 03:23:24 nialo [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:23:27 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:24:09 akovalenko: What do you do for a day-job? 03:25:13 well, programming (I prefer telecommuting / freelancing with flexible schedules, so it's usually a "night" job) 03:25:20 on linux, you can sort of get the best of both worlds. 03:25:41 pkhuong: you mean that madvise() thing? yes, it's great 03:26:05 nialo [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:28 pkhuong: I have a plan to make compression and sharing work simultaneously on Windows too (with shared anonymous mappings) 03:27:28 ikki [~ikki@189.247.116.252] has joined #lisp 03:29:45 What's that CL library that was started kind of recently that has non-blocking/"asynch" socket comms? 03:30:17 iolib 03:30:28 or usocket 03:30:46 Will anything that works in iolib work in the Win32 fork? 03:31:58 I didn't look closer at iolib/unix, so I don't know. Note that iolib for windows is a separate port (separate git branch, at least) 03:32:38 http://src.knowledgetools.de/tomas/winapi/iolib.git 03:33:52 -!- SlayersZ [~SlayersZ@70.65.233.0] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:36:36 onembk [~onembk@c-98-245-158-2.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:36:38 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 03:39:04 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 03:39:12 Modius`: well, *100.mswinmt.1150 03:39:30 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.116.252] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:40:05 ikki [~ikki@189.247.171.94] has joined #lisp 03:43:09 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:43:35 -!- dys [~andreas@krlh-5f73792f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:44:00 dys [~andreas@krlh-5f7360ab.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:44:10 Haha, I've got 1149 in a long-duration test, shame to interrupt it :) 03:45:32 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 03:52:56 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:53:28 ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has joined #lisp 03:56:02 tabb0t [~tabb0t@117.202.116.73] has joined #lisp 03:56:22 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-anchthbrcmyrcbam] has joined #lisp 03:56:52 -!- ybit [~ybit@unaffiliated/ybit] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:57:40 -!- wanderingelf [4817e03b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.23.224.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:00:28 lghtng` [~user@c-71-193-21-240.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:17 -!- ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has left #lisp 04:02:44 mathslinux [~user@119.255.44.227] has joined #lisp 04:07:48 -!- tabb0t [~tabb0t@117.202.116.73] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:11:58 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:15:03 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 04:16:49 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.171.94] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:26:57 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.54.118] has joined #lisp 04:26:57 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.54.118] has quit [Changing host] 04:26:57 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 04:31:00 Demosthenes [~demo@mff2c36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 04:32:43 -!- ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:39:49 -!- Modius` [~user@cpe-70-123-128-240.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:40:09 -!- iDespera` [~user@112.94.175.105] has quit [Quit: ...] 04:40:18 Modius` [~user@cpe-70-123-128-240.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:41:28 -!- johnstorey [~johnstore@adsl-99-39-151-16.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Nodding off now.] 04:46:57 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-108-18-171-26.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:47:10 -!- nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:48:55 saschakb_ [~saschakb@p4FEA0559.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 04:52:37 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA036E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:54:43 ASau`` [~user@89-178-114-64.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 04:55:30 -!- onembk [~onembk@c-98-245-158-2.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:57:40 johnstorey [~johnstore@adsl-99-39-151-16.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:58:07 -!- ASau` [~user@89-178-123-216.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:01:36 -!- drdo [~user@85.207.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:02:14 Is there anything in the REPL like *, ** and *** that I can look up? Anything else that can cache values? 05:02:22 drdo [~drdo@drdo.eu] has joined #lisp 05:03:04 etc., + etc.? 05:03:07 +? /? 05:03:11 /, sorry 05:04:23 -!- drdo [~drdo@drdo.eu] has quit [Client Quit] 05:04:32 drdo [~drdo@drdo.eu] has joined #lisp 05:06:07 Have a link to the list? They're hard to search on 05:06:24 I need to see which of them are retaining references. 05:10:28 Modius`: /, //, ///, *, **, ***, +, ++, +++, - 05:11:07 Modius`: http://l1sp.org/cl/// (it works!) 05:11:07 leo2007` [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 05:11:48 -!- leo2007` [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Client Quit] 05:12:00 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.92.1] 05:12:12 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 05:14:29 Is there something that can clear all this s*** out? 05:14:35 I mean, all the * + ++ / etc. 05:14:49 Modius`: type 1 RET 2 RET 3 RET. 05:15:18 Modius`: in SLIME, C-c M-o clears both REPL buffer and these variables 05:16:19 Modius`: in plain REPL, something like ()()() 05:18:04 C-c C-v M-o to only clear out the presentation table. 05:23:18 abc3257 [~abc3257@50.92.27.228] has joined #lisp 05:26:12 cfy [~cfy@218.75.27.171] has joined #lisp 05:26:12 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.27.171] has quit [Changing host] 05:26:12 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 05:27:56 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.147.52] has quit [Quit: rme] 05:28:41 -!- Modius` [~user@cpe-70-123-128-240.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:28:59 -!- lusory [~bart@bb115-66-195-54.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:29:45 -!- drdo [~drdo@drdo.eu] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 05:30:09 Cosman246 [~cosman246@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:15 -!- lghtng` [~user@c-71-193-21-240.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:31:28 Modius` [~user@cpe-70-123-128-240.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:32:46 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@mff2c36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:35:26 drdo [~drdo@drdo.eu] has joined #lisp 05:37:19 -!- SidH_ [~sid@203.101.61.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:38:11 What's the prevailing/most-loved MOP library? 05:38:23 I mean, MOP compatibility library 05:38:31 Modius`: closer-mop 05:38:51 Wasn't sure - 2007 date on it. 05:44:34 chenbing [~user@125.118.5.125] has joined #lisp 05:44:42 sacho [~sacho@95-42-125-255.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 05:44:50 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: meh] 05:45:41 Modius`: the mop does not change much 05:48:04 -!- sacho_ [~sacho@95-42-125-255.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:53:13 chenbing` [~user@122.233.180.9] has joined #lisp 05:53:45 hydrogenesis [~hdg@124.205.102.34] has joined #lisp 05:54:19 SlayersZ [~SlayersZ@70.65.233.0] has joined #lisp 05:54:38 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-229-64.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:56:07 s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-229-64.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 05:56:28 -!- chenbing [~user@125.118.5.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:58:49 psykoTRON [~psykoTRON@c-67-166-148-128.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:01:43 -!- abc3257 [~abc3257@50.92.27.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:02:29 -!- akovalenko [~akovalenk@95.73.107.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:02:53 mburke [~max@S0106000c41f2f3de.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:06:13 -!- spike2251 [~user@c-76-24-24-228.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:07:11 am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.178] has joined #lisp 06:07:24 is it possible to have cl-json encode a JS false value? 06:07:25 abc3257 [~abc3257@50.92.27.228] has joined #lisp 06:08:52 akovalenko [~akovalenk@95.73.104.112] has joined #lisp 06:09:03 nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:11:38 -!- Cosman246 [~cosman246@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has left #lisp 06:11:50 Cosman246 [~cosman246@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 06:11:57 OT: Yuri Kim is dead 06:17:28 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 06:17:29 Demosthenes [~demo@mff2c36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 06:18:29 -!- psykoTRON [~psykoTRON@c-67-166-148-128.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:19:39 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.19.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:22:01 psykotron [~psykoTRON@c-67-166-148-128.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:23:08 -!- johnstorey [~johnstore@adsl-99-39-151-16.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Nodding off now.] 06:23:27 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-125-255.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:24:04 Cryotank2011 [~Cryotank2@c-24-17-62-152.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:33:58 sacho [~sacho@95-42-125-255.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 06:42:53 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:43:30 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 06:46:25 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 06:50:53 -!- psykotron [~psykoTRON@c-67-166-148-128.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 06:56:51 -!- gaidal [gaidal@58.61.215.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:56:59 gaidal [gaidal@61.144.105.68] has joined #lisp 06:59:06 -!- abc3257 [~abc3257@50.92.27.228] has quit [] 07:00:34 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:03:02 Xach: well, xecto branched out. It was so easy to take the infrastructure and hack useful stuff like parallel let, futures, dotimes, map and reduce. 07:03:33 anonus [~anonymous@95-55-23-128.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 07:08:50 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.190.39.231] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 07:09:04 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:10:12 osa1 [~sinan@141.196.19.134] has joined #lisp 07:10:48 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 07:10:59 Good night 07:12:08 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 07:13:12 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:14:37 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 07:19:28 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:19:43 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.169.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:20:24 -!- brendn [~Brendan_T@repo.parabolagnulinux.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:21:12 -!- Guest77705 [~Kron@98.143.102.40] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 07:21:14 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 07:22:35 sacho_ [~sacho@95-42-125-255.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 07:22:42 -!- cmoore is now known as hydo 07:25:16 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-125-255.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:27:27 Indecipherable [~IceChat77@41.12.27.113] has joined #lisp 07:29:03 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@mff2c36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:29:32 Demosthenes [~demo@mff2c36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 07:30:33 I'm always stressing about Common Lisp being replaced with another language 07:30:50 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-191-149.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:31:06 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-98-252.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: sleep] 07:31:29 But I suppose that if a similar language comes to light incorporating same features, it will just become another dialect of Lisp. Right? 07:32:10 never worry about something better coming along 07:32:25 it will never be a problem because by assumption it is better :) 07:32:57 stop worrying, start coding. 07:32:59 Indecipherable: worry more about the fact that you're spending this much time worrying about something you can't control. You *can* control whether or not you actually get meaningful work done. 07:34:12 if you want to be on the safe side, program in java. like they used to say: "nobody gets fired for chosing ibm" 07:35:20 H4ns: that's an incredibly depressing sentiment 07:35:22 also true. 07:36:35 yes :( 07:36:56 Indecipherable: which programming languages are you experienced with? 07:37:54 Common Lisp, Scheme, Racket, Python, Prolog, Some Javascript, a teeny-tiny bit of ASM, MLs Like HTML... 07:38:09 isn't racket = scheme? 07:38:33 SlayersZ: that's an interesting discussion, check here: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Category_talk:Racket 07:39:30 Racket is a descendant of Scheme as far as I know 07:39:46 Indecipherable: if you are worried about getting a job, the thing to keep in mind is that to get a good job it does not matter which languages you know, but how comfortable you are to learn a new language 07:39:55 And people say that Java is ugly and has no educational/academic value at all 07:40:07 xD 07:40:18 it does not have educational value alright xD 07:40:33 bad examples have educational value ott :-) 07:40:35 heh 07:40:42 too 07:40:50 it all depends on the teacher 07:41:17 steevy [~steevy@91-67-42-157-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 07:41:23 you can teach programming with any language. it's a question of how effective it will be 07:41:31 I don't work yet (still young, lol) but I'll keep that in mind. thanks 07:42:13 brendn [~brendn@repo.parabolagnulinux.org] has joined #lisp 07:42:13 there is a danger that if you learn java first you come out believing that java is all you'll ever need to learn. you don't have that problem because you already know another language. savor that 07:42:20 i'm having the same worries xD 07:42:22 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.131] has joined #lisp 07:42:35 Anyways, I love Python. If they come up with a way to make extensions to it without having to code in C, it will be even better 07:42:47 C is awesome xD 07:42:49 I think PyPy is heading that route 07:43:15 right. do you want to take your ramblings about racket, scheme, c and python elsewhere? thanks. 07:43:28 the very fact that you know lisp now makes you twice as hirable than a candidate that has the same knowledge and experience as you, but knowws java instead of lisp 07:43:29 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-191-227.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:43:45 is C 07:43:57 a HL or LL language? 07:44:20 Indecipherable: it is a language that is not generally discussed in this channel. 07:45:00 only lisp :o 07:45:25 heh 07:45:27 well, it's #lisp and not #which-language-is-best 07:46:09 Well obviously there is no "best" language 07:46:18 YES THERE IS 07:46:29 And that's we're here. 07:46:30 Indecipherable: can you get on with it now, please? 07:48:23 nostoi [~nostoi@136.Red-83-50-2.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:49:23 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:49:52 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 07:50:32 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:51:45 good morning 07:52:35 -!- Indecipherable [~IceChat77@41.12.27.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:53:06 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:55:46 -!- ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:56:20 ddp [~ddp@anon-136-179.relakks.com] has joined #lisp 08:00:39 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@136.Red-83-50-2.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 08:00:57 evenson` [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 08:01:08 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@mff2c36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:01:25 Demosthenes [~demo@mff2c36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 08:04:10 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-155.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:05:05 pon1980 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everyone 09:22:23 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:22:25 tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 09:23:05 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@242.Red-88-24-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:24:08 morning 09:26:13 -!- tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 09:31:44 -!- dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:31:47 mrSpec [~Spec@89-77-76-114.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 09:31:51 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-77-76-114.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 09:31:51 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 09:32:53 dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has joined #lisp 09:34:10 -!- mikecsh [~mikecsh@113.28.74.33] has quit [Quit: mikecsh] 09:38:26 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-63-146.lns1.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:40:05 kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-38-28.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 09:43:42 -!- chu 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-!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@bg266-1-88-183-246-56.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:41:05 katesmith_ [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 17:34:04 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 17:34:04 17:34:04 -!- names: ccl-logbot milanj tensorpudding _schulte_ kpreid rme saschakb_ SlayersZ wishbone4 Kron_ EyesIsServer [SLB] realitygrill cpc26 Memnoch mstevens puchacz silenius askatasuna kilon benny mcsontos CrazyThinker ``Erik lakatosi kushal ikki onembk nyef sipo EmmanuelOga fantazo bsamograd wanderingelf McMAGIC--Copy lnostdal pjb iwillig cmm hlavaty Nauntilus Phoodus _3b _krappie_ johnstorey ThomasH jlaire felideon tritchey lars_t_h xan_ zhangkaizhao araujo urandom__ 17:34:04 -!- names: panterax eno Neban katesmith karswell ArmyOfBruce AntiSpamMeta emit antifuchs Adrinael dcguru joast _mathrick drdo alvis mrSpec nicdev Khisanth attila_lendvai ignas ThePawnBreak teggi bzzbzz ve Xach trigen_ cods rpgsimmaster_ Trystam samebchase CaZe stepnem lemoinem Jasko rotty_ rotty g000001 NovemberX arbscht REPLeffect zbigniew BlastHardcheese rabite_ waveman aoh ihyoyoung herbieB_ Saeren_ hugoduncan mathrick_ ericeatsbrains_ devhost kephas homie`` 17:34:04 -!- names: sellout1 shachaf_ s0ber BrianRice twopi_ frozencemetery EarlGray^^ DGASAU` add^_ chenbing` naeg osa1 agumonkey sykopomp lispmeister akovalenko ddp leo2007 daniel___ otakutomo SHODAN ASau` kennyd dRbiG Jeanne-Kamikaze cYmen mishoo__ anaumov insomniaSalt ecraven varjag Ralith madnificent pchrist cyrillos brendyn steevy gravicappa angavrilov scharan anonus gaidal Cosman246 am0c mburke Modius` nitro_idiot dys nialo X-Scale cataska SeanTAllen Nisstyre Yuuhi`` 17:34:04 -!- names: zenlunatic rjj bwright aliasxerog bieber H4ns JuanDaugherty wtetzner setmeaway mon_key borkman otwieracz djuber abeaumont pnathan daimrod kwmiebach v0|d schoppenhauer naryl incandenza whoops Odin- evenson twopi phadthai Kryztof peterhil` fmu foom inklesspen DrForr_ hyko mornfall dcrawford_ markski1beck parabolize em cl1 rtoym rpg Salamander kjellkt dima_f Modius nialo` eMBee p_l|backup axion alek_b mmullis ramus sorabji5252 xjrn gniourf_gniourf __main__ 17:34:04 -!- names: SegFaultAX|work nuba cnl tali713 pinterface Utkarsh tltstc Nshag literal mgr ruru flip214 christoph_debian dsp_ eli PECCU CrazyEddy j_king Fade prip a7p loke antoszka ace4016 yroeht vsync Kvaks dfox fe[nl]ix Guest81674 deepfire Zephyrus Quadrescence djanatyn TristamWrk Euthydemus hq1 felipe Yamazaki-kun csdserver housel htop austinh ianmcorvidae jiacobucci Posterdati df_ guther jayne elliottjohnson SpitfireWP Jabberwockey GeneralMaximus |3b| tty234 17:34:04 -!- names: boyscared klutometis mtd elliottcable aperturefever xristos spacebat_ tvaalen acieroid gz jeekl __root__ billitch yeltzooo tessier pkhuong tomaw guaqua mal sshirokov C-Keen CallToPower Bucciarati cmbntr MikeSeth limetree galdor gemelen rootzlevel rvncerr sbryant _death pok johs peterbb joshe koollman wolgo_ Obfuscate rahul peddie bege ft saeftl luis foocraft kloeri ineiros tychoish PissedNumlock erg freiksenet jsnell Patzy syrinx_ Shapeshifter orangejuice 17:34:04 -!- names: z0d vhost- jrockway howeyc dlowe cpt_nemo froggey daedric pokes clop qsun theBlackDragon egn oGMo setheus redline6561_ yan_ Intensity Xof p_l scode lonstein Mandus udoprog jasom ch077179 macrobat Neronus ruediger billstclair bobbysmith007 micro` _stink_ ski_ OliverUv albino cmatei finnrobi_ levi` Kovensky bhaskara k9quaint tempire cow-orker Zhivago churib djinni` gensym Borbus quasisane clog Axioplase_ Dodek 17:34:05 0_0 17:34:09 what shell are you using 17:34:15 alias e='emacs' for bash.. 17:34:16 bash 17:34:19 This is not the place to discuss such things. 17:34:24 well that too i guess 17:40:01 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:40:12 -!- wanderingelf [4817e03b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.23.224.59] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:40:31 -!- zhangkaizhao [~zhangkaiz@27.47.13.244] has quit [Quit: ] 17:43:03 -!- saschakb_ [~saschakb@p4FEA0A4F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:43:36 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.169.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:43:54 -!- anaumov [~anaumov@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:45:55 -!- am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.178] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:45:56 Well, I wanted to show how parallel let can be simple to use with , but I think the main message is that sbcl's vector sort isn't very good (: 17:46:58 heh 17:47:06 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 17:47:45 mstevens_ [~mstevens@ceres.etla.org] has joined #lisp 17:50:07 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:50:09 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 17:51:36 -!- ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:51:50 ddp [~ddp@anon-158-71.relakks.com] has joined #lisp 17:58:44 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:58:46 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 17:58:54 -!- dima_f [~dima_f@170.251.255.70] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:07:39 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.95] has joined #lisp 18:08:01 -!- mstevens_ [~mstevens@ceres.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:10:45 -!- Saeren_ is now known as Saeren 18:15:43 sacho_ [~sacho@95-42-103-191.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 18:16:33 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-064-183-000.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:25 -!- shachaf_ is now known as shachaf 18:20:37 -!- rjj [~rjj@cpe-76-90-79-73.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:23:41 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-155.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:23:56 -!- lakatosi [~lakatosi@c3.uaic.ro] has left #lisp 18:26:56 Am I right in thinking that the standard IDE that comes with CCL on Mac is called "Hemlock"? 18:27:42 -!- steevy [~steevy@91-67-42-157-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: quit?] 18:27:45 No, I'd say not. The IDE editor is based on Hemlock, though. 18:27:56 Ah ok. 18:28:20 -!- hugoduncan is now known as hugod 18:30:47 Also, is there a way to skip loading the IDE while still having access to the Objc bridge and Cocoa? 18:31:11 (require 'objc-support) should do it. 18:31:25 (you'll need to run an event loop, though, and that can be tricky) 18:32:58 http://www.clozure.com/~rme/no-nib-cocoa.lisp might be a helpful example 18:33:08 lakatosi [~lakatosi@c3.uaic.ro] has joined #lisp 18:33:16 Thanks. That's exactly what I was looking for. 18:33:42 -!- SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:33:59 I'm planning on implementing some hashing algorhitms in Common Lisp 18:34:36 I seem to vaguely remember that reading in sequences of bytes from a file is more efficient than reading them byte by byte 18:34:41 Is that true? 18:34:49 It is pretty true. 18:35:16 Good 18:35:17 READ-SEQUENCE can be pretty fast. 18:36:00 Also, what do you guys recommend of using to store the bytes and operate on them. In the past I would normally use bit-vectors 18:36:37 You would store bytes in a bit vector? 18:36:38 But I sometimes get the feeling that there's probably a better, faster way? :\ 18:36:51 I guess that makes sense. 18:37:43 Well. after all, there are the bit- functions at hand 18:37:57 So it was just pretty handy 18:38:12 I use bit vectors all the time, but not usually to store octets read from a file. 18:38:30 For octets I read from a file, I often use (make-array 42 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) ...) 18:38:36 Well I have to do bitwise operations with the octets 18:39:10 So bit-vectors seem to be a good way to go 18:39:32 lakatosi: on batches of octets, or on individual octets? 18:39:43 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:39:49 By the way, are there any bitwise operations I can do on numbers in Lisp? 18:39:51 there are plenty of bitwise operations on integers in CL. 18:39:58 logand, logior, logxor, etc. 18:40:05 Xach: On batches of 4 mostly 18:40:33 Cool 18:40:55 -!- lispmeister [~fix@AStDenis-551-1-4-91.w80-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:41:03 I tried to do this initially in C 18:41:49 I would operate on blocks of 4octets, and the integer-overflow would come in handy 18:42:26 davazp [~user@89.100.226.133] has joined #lisp 18:42:45 Everything would have worked out pretty nicely, but then I met my arch nemesis, little-endian :P 18:43:31 CL specifies a lot about the behavior of bits in an integer with respect to bitwise operations. 18:43:37 The way I was reading the octets from the files wouldn't work with the way I was working with the other blocks 18:43:49 SO I gave up and now I'm rewriting it in Lisp 18:44:08 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:44:09 Xach: Where can I read more about this? 18:44:45 http://l1sp.org/cl/12 18:44:58 If in the hyperspec, is there a more efficient way of looking through it? I constantly get lost 18:44:58 -!- Cosman246 [~cosman246@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:45:13 lispmeister [~fix@AStDenis-551-1-98-189.w80-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:45:22 The index is pretty good. The permuted index is handy. 18:45:44 Thank you very much 18:45:48 -!- lakatosi [~lakatosi@c3.uaic.ro] has left #lisp 18:46:02 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:46:41 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:47:10 -!- SlayersZ [~SlayersZ@70.65.233.0] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:47:52 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-155.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:48:21 SlayersZ [~SlayersZ@70.65.233.0] has joined #lisp 18:49:17 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:50:10 tigranes [~user@static-50-53-75-48.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:00 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 18:53:20 Cosman246 [~cosman246@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:00 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-35.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:36 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 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[~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:25:37 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 20:28:54 cmoore [~cmoore@216.160.113.173] has joined #lisp 20:30:02 -!- foocraft [foocraft@ibawizard.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:30:12 You know, I've been trying like hell to get away from Lisp, and every time I'm coming back, even though I'm a newbie even after 10 years fiddling with it from time to time... It's just not fair, I tell you. 20:31:01 It's called a local optimum. You cannot find anything better. 20:31:52 sounds more like the mafia :) 20:32:54 Heh, or Hotel California? 20:33:44 But yes, that's the whole problem, I can't find anything better despite other languages being more popular and having more libraries. 20:33:52 foocraft [foocraft@ibawizard.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:46 i feel the same way, i just keep coming back to lisp 20:35:29 i just had to spend time in python 20:35:30 i'm not all that concerned about libraries and popularity, but more with the potential expressivity that you are capable of with lisp 20:35:47 tigranes: just write the libraries you need in lisp and be happy! 20:35:47 i still find some things lacking but i've found ways to metaprogram around it mostly 20:35:48 -!- cmoore is now known as hydo 20:35:50 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 20:35:57 i can't count the number of times I went "wtf, lisp can do this, why can't you?" 20:36:39 lisp is a lifelong language i think 20:37:09 it's not popular and probably never will be again, but it's always going to be there... 20:37:24 bsamograd: Be careful, as I became proficient with lisp, I kept raising my expections and now am overly optimistic about what I can accomplish. I usually accomplish it, but it always takes me longer than I anticipate. 20:38:13 ThomasH: i could see that but i don't see that as a problem...i use lisp personally and don't really have a time limit on anything i'm trying to accomplish 20:38:59 not that i wouldn't mind being able to use it at work, but that's probably never going to happen outside of tiny little projects that i can sneak by my supervisor 20:39:36 -!- kilon [~kilon@ppp-94-64-181-91.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:39:54 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-191-149.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:40:09 I actually have noticed that doing things in Lisp takes longer. Of course, I genreally end up with a more complete program with decent error-checking instead of a ten-line single-use script that requires very specific situation to work. 20:41:10 tigranes: So... it didn't actually take longer, you're comparing apples and oranges. So how your expectations changed as well? 20:41:10 How can it take longer? It's usually 1/10 to 1/30 the LoC of C... 20:41:21 s/So/See 20:41:57 pjb: It always takes me longer to reduce LoC. 20:41:57 lisp makes you want to write a correct program 20:41:58 pjb: What I had in mind are little scripts in Perl or Ruby 20:42:27 ThomasH: I don't mean reducing LoC. I mean writing the same program in lisp will take 1/30 the number of lines it takes to write it in C. 20:42:53 pjb: Yes but you are the only one talking about C :P 20:43:00 tigranes: what are you doing in perl/ruby that takes longer in CL? 20:43:20 tigranes: for little scripts, you need to be accumulating a library of utilities so that they're as easy and as short to write in lisp as in perl. 20:43:29 ^ 20:43:54 pjb: Hmm... never thought of that. I try to make them self-contained. 20:44:03 that seems silly 20:44:24 and gives an artificial advantage to languages with kitchen sink stdlibs 20:44:43 which sort of trivializes things and makes expressivity irrelevant 20:44:46 CL is at a particularly bad spot in that regard 20:45:37 there's enough words in CL to learn, no need to clutter it with everyones personal utilties even more than it already is 20:46:10 Heh, that's for sure. 20:46:11 bsamograd: It has a particularly bad ammout of clutter 20:46:22 less or more would be better imo 20:46:49 well, what is the gaping hole in the CL library repertoire, hacks and glory may await... 20:47:30 ducatii [~dukatii@pool-74-110-3-223.bflony.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:23 When it comes to doing perl/ruby scripting type tasks, I generally write functions to operate on a buffer in the IDE. If I'm running the functions across many files in a directory, I still work from the REPL. CL is not really useful from the OS command line. 20:48:37 if one implements a really good solution you might be as famous as Xach 20:49:27 Guthur: writing a good solution in many cases ammounts to ignoring everything already in CL 20:49:50 -!- sellout1 is now known as sellout 20:50:07 ThomasH: Do you just end up with a really complicated sexp or actually write functions in REPL? 20:50:47 tigranes: I write the functions in a buffer because I'm usually saving them, the function call from the REPL is usually as short as possible. 20:50:50 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:27 tigranes: Even if I'm not saving the functions, I would use a temporary buffer. Every time I've ever written a quick function on the REPL, I end up regretting not having it in a buffer. 20:51:45 I never write functions in the repl 20:51:59 Oh, all right, I have had the same experience with writing anything lengthy in REPL 20:52:14 lisp doesn't have the same one line magic that shell script has 20:52:46 -!- barryfm [~barryfm@fl-71-2-134-179.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has left #lisp 20:52:48 If you use emacs, there's no difference anyways between a repl and a buffer, only that you can save the buffer. So at the first C-x C-s in the REPL, you know it's time to copy it to a normal buffer. 20:52:49 bsamograd: If that line is on the REPL, it does. 20:52:55 i like just hacking out a pipe chain until it gets to a line or two and then taking that and editing it in a buffer 20:53:17 bsamograd: nothing stopping you from writing a pipe chaining DSL. 20:53:35 Ralith: nothing except my abilties...yet :) 20:54:28 i've always had a bit of a dream of creating a newer shell scripting language using lisp as the substrate 20:54:43 bsamograd: have a look at scsh for inspiration. 20:54:44 bsamograd: That has been done 20:54:45 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-190-233-246.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:54:52 shell was always my favorite language for on the fly hacking and data exploration 20:55:15 pjb: i haven't looked at scsh for a while 20:55:17 bsamograd: Learn to use your lisp IDE and live in the REPL. You'll never want to use the shell again. 20:55:19 It used to be mine too, and then I encountered files with spaces in them. 20:55:36 tigranes: true enough 20:56:03 i like the syntax of it...just enough without being a mess of perl 20:56:16 but it definetly has it's major limits, even using ksh 20:56:31 ThomasH: sounds like you don't know how to use pipe chaining 20:56:49 or, well 20:56:54 just about any shell functionality :P 20:56:56 CL is not a good shell. 20:56:57 Taslem [40e9e315@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.233.227.21] has joined #lisp 20:57:19 there have been attempts to make a lispy shell but afaik no real successes 20:57:26 cl with streams would be a sort of suitable replacement for pipes, aloing with the piping dsl that was mentioned 20:57:26 There's lush 20:57:31 and.....and scsh 20:57:33 and esh 20:57:58 es is also an interesting shell as well 20:58:07 though none of them are based on CL, afaik 20:58:16 and none of them are really very usable, afaik 20:58:41 there's really a certain sweet spot with sh syntax 20:59:16 but it just never evolved into a "true language" after ksh 20:59:18 if fi do od case esac elif........ 20:59:19 I need to lookup the syntax for "for" every single time 20:59:33 i never remember where the do and ; and the end and whatnot goes 20:59:49 ; before do...except after newlines 20:59:50 (with apologies to gls) 20:59:52 I don't understand the desire for pipes. Isn't the ability to nest list-based return values the lisp equivalent? 20:59:57 Cosman246: there are alternatives to most of those, iirc. 20:59:58 like nesting mapcars or whatever 21:00:07 Phoodus: no. 21:00:17 Phoodus: the thing about pipes is that you don't fully evaluate the expression before passing it to the next stage 21:00:18 Ralith: My pipe chaining days are long behind me. I think it's more a case of having tasks that require more than the pipe. 21:00:18 of course, there is no parallelism that way, but the semantics seem equivalent 21:00:22 Phoodus: It's just like stream processing 21:00:24 "comment bletch tnemmoc" -Knuth 21:00:32 I'm constantly amused by that 21:00:58 plus parallellism on multiple proessors 21:01:00 ThomasH: there are many tasks that are far more easily done in a shell than anywhere else 21:01:24 but for these quick tasks, how often is asynchronicity & streaming actually used vs just batching each step with a return set? 21:01:28 it's a hell of a lot easier to get all the cores on my machine maxed out using shell than with any other language 21:01:45 Phoodus: often it's critical. 21:02:00 bsamograd: "all the cores" means what? 2? 4? 21:02:11 drdo: 4 currently 21:02:13 can you do 1k? 21:02:28 Ralith: it seems scary to me to rely on the shell for such criticality 21:02:29 for example, downloading and extracting a tarball when all you actually want to keep is its contents. 21:02:36 drdo: never tried or had the opportunty 21:02:45 Phoodus: then you seem very confused. 21:03:10 yes, I am confused about what context is being discussed 21:03:39 and why shell scripts are used as such instead of actual programming languages 21:04:04 *Xach* wants something pipeliney for commando 21:04:06 the shell is just a DSL for operating system interaction 21:04:07 Phoodus: the right tool for the job 21:05:31 and when what you're doing with shell gets to big you can break out hunks of it to be done in real languages and just incorporate that section into the program...easiest ffi in the world to use 21:06:13 it has quite a big startup overhead but in the end it's all just strings to pass data back and forth 21:06:35 it's actually a bit tricky to write an idiomatic shell tool 21:06:54 handling the simultaneous I/O and blocking such that everything is maximally efficient 21:06:58 bsamograd: I view getting away from streams of strings as being very desirable 21:07:24 Phoodus: they're not streams of strings 21:07:31 they're streams of bytes. 21:07:33 I like http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3245983402026014@naggum.no.html as some perspective on where Unix and CL have made different decisions. 21:07:37 right, just using bsamograd's words 21:07:37 Phoodus: It's just a trade off 21:07:38 Phoodus: sometimes the complication of those solutions overwieghs the benefits 21:07:51 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:08:18 <_schulte_> I yet to see any data exchange language as readable, general, and extensible as shell text streams 21:08:19 a stream of bytes gives you flexibility but also a lot more work and the need for additional protocols 21:08:32 parser/generator libraries. 21:08:43 -!- vervic [~vervic@vie-91-186-155-019.dsl.sil.at] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:08:48 _schulte_: readable for the human, or readable for the machine? 21:08:57 again, it depends on the problem 21:09:16 there's a point where using strings is not a good idea as the complexity of your data increases 21:09:21 <_schulte_> Phoodus: human readable 21:09:32 I never understood the point of having human anything 21:09:33 <_schulte_> Phoodus: for shell vs. language see http://www.leancrew.com/all-this/2011/12/more-shell-less-egg/ 21:09:36 _schulte_: right, I don't care much about that; create reporting if the human needs to see stuff 21:09:48 *human readable 21:09:57 and then the next stage of course is to use s-expresions to structure your data...which leads to lisp at the end of a pipe chain 21:10:03 <_schulte_> Phoodus: so, I may not be sure of the context, but for interactive data munging I don't think anything can touch the shell 21:10:29 <_schulte_> although sometimes it is very handy in include lisp in the shell pipeline for complex tasks 21:10:40 Specially human readable network protocols 21:11:06 *Xach* strongly prefers the CL repl for interactive data munging, after using it to wrangle information out of hundreds of giant invoice files 21:11:15 _schulte_: that particular example seems quite doable in lisp, especially since many of the steps (like sort) buffer everything before outputting 21:11:26 (simply to refer back to my previous point) 21:11:54 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.173.79] has joined #lisp 21:12:14 the closest thing i've seen to shell script piping is haskell's lazy evaluation on lists 21:12:31 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:12:40 evaluating each stage of the computation as needed...or at least that's how i envision it working 21:12:46 ... or message queues? 21:12:47 we use async queues in lisp quite heavily, and have some pipelining setup 21:13:01 pkhuong: or messages queues, yes 21:13:13 ahmm, plain old streams? 21:13:36 or streams, or mailboxes, or whatever else that's come along 21:13:54 -!- ducatii [~dukatii@pool-74-110-3-223.bflony.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:13:55 I can't imagine implementing real non-interactive data processing streams as shell scripting, though I know it's probably fairly common 21:13:55 -!- Taslem [40e9e315@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.233.227.21] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:13:57 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 21:14:06 drdo: I never understood human readable protocols either 21:14:13 they seem wasteful and fragile 21:14:23 <_schulte_> is there a natural way to pipeline between seperate processes in lisp 21:14:24 so, you're a huge fan of XML then? ;-) 21:14:33 _schulte_: sure, unix pipes. 21:14:38 where would you get that idea? 21:14:38 Ralith: hard to parse, easy to mess up edge cases, very inneficient 21:14:43 and no one reads it anyway 21:14:49 drdo: exactly 21:14:51 <_schulte_> pkhuong: :) I was thinking /within/ lisp, but sure 21:15:02 then you get base64 and other monsters 21:15:03 drdo: and that's not even mentioning encoding issues... 21:15:05 to fix it 21:15:06 _schulte_: there's no "within lisp" between lisp processes. 21:15:11 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:15:20 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0A4F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:15:28 davazp [~user@89.100.226.133] has joined #lisp 21:15:31 _schulte_: on sbcl you can spawn multiple threads and pass data between stages using mailboxes 21:15:37 weren't the pre-CLHS Lisp equivalent of threads called "processes"? 21:15:46 By the way, Xach, I haven't yet thanked you about http://xach.livejournal.com/278047.html?thread=674335 21:15:47 <_schulte_> pkhuong: I was thinking of something like mq but lighter weight 21:15:48 Thanks! 21:16:24 _schulte_: there's a few zmq bindings, fwiw. I don't see why lisp would have anything special to simplify what zmq does. 21:16:37 Might as well reuse their nice work. 21:17:06 whipping up a threadsafe queue isn't hard, not sure if some already exist in something like alexandria or bordeaux-threads 21:17:16 Phoodus: sb-concurrency has one. 21:17:32 I have an even simpler one for single-consumer. 21:17:33 <_schulte_> agreed, I'm using zmq on a project and liking it very much. Just making the point that there is no simple (as in 2-character) one-off multi-proc pipelining in lisp 21:17:40 and much better to just use lisp objects rather than marshalling into preexisting messaging architectures, unless you specifically need that compatibility 21:17:44 seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:56 Phoodus: how do you use lisp objects across processes? 21:18:05 across threads, not processes 21:18:47 _schulte_ asked about processes. If it's within a single image, then yes, we have a couple good basic tools, and I'm working on improving that. 21:18:52 we're going to tackle cross-process objects at some point, but we do have an advantage in that we're a mostly functional architecture 21:19:05 pkhuong: printable readably. 21:19:18 oh, I thought the "/within/ lisp" meant within a single lisp image 21:19:40 pjb: have fun printing by arrays of billion of doubles. 21:19:55 <_schulte_> speaking of, it would be nice to have a byte version of with-output-to-string, for serializing objects to streams, but I guess such a function would have to be implementation specific? 21:19:59 pkhuong: memory share can work too. 21:20:05 Phoodus: I read that as compared to haskell's built-in support for lazy streams or shell's pipe notation. 21:20:31 -!- anvandare [~anvandare@78-21-50-58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:20:37 pjb: i.e. working with a marshalling-friendly representation everywhere. 21:23:32 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@242.Red-88-24-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 21:25:10 _schulte_: I would not really call 0MQ heavy weight 21:25:21 it's design to be the opposite infact 21:25:44 HG` [~HG@dsbg-4db578b9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:55 <_schulte_> Guthur: fully agreed, weight here in terms of character cound in source code, as compared to "| " in a shell 21:26:02 <_schulte_> *count 21:26:24 _schulte_: such an implementation is trivial 21:26:27 ah, I probably missed some context 21:26:51 and fully portable 21:27:02 <_schulte_> Ralith: then where's an implementation, I'd like to use it? :) 21:28:00 <_schulte_> I don't mean to impune lisp's IPC, I just think that the shell and composable unix utilities are a very well designed and implemented tool set which are often unfairly maligned 21:28:07 antgreen [~user@70.50.66.140] has joined #lisp 21:30:29 _schulte_: not sure it's totally comparable though. Unix piping is very versatile, but I don't think you would build any significantly complex 'system' with it. 21:30:29 LocalWords: verstale 21:30:29 21:30:32 oops 21:31:01 _schulte_: with-output-to-string has an :element-type argument :P 21:31:23 <_schulte_> Ralith: ah thanks! 21:31:32 Guthur: does bash reduce qualify as complex? 21:32:26 _schulte_: you really can't impugn lisp's IPC because it really doesn't have any of its own :) 21:33:22 Unix piping is generally as good as sockets, but when the assumption is that text is flowing in the pipe instead of bytes, then things get complex 21:33:40 (good in terms of async, parallelizable, etc) 21:33:57 pkhuong: is it not closer to a function as oppose to a system. 21:34:34 maybe I being a little fuzzy though 21:37:30 benny [~benny@i577A33F3.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:40:03 PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has joined #lisp 21:41:15 ISF [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has joined #lisp 21:47:08 Phoodus: unix pipelines *are* sockets for most pratical purposes. 21:47:48 right 21:48:22 and in one sense they're harder (or more opaque) to set up from code than real sockets 21:49:29 so while I said "good" in a very limited sense above, their constrained nature really makes me prefer sockets 21:50:45 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-064-183-000.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:51:03 Hmmmm 21:51:06 homie``` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-78.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:51:58 I'm defining parameters in a function, which I later use in the same function and in other functions, but when I C-c C-c the original function, it claims that the variable is undefined 21:52:11 Is this to be expected? 21:52:27 -!- homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-153-13.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:53:25 you're using the parameter to one function in another function? 21:53:26 what? 21:53:56 Phoodus: what makes you think they're hard to set up? 21:55:38 the intent is lost when stringifying a cmdline 21:55:54 plus you have almost no way to monitor the state of individual piped processes 21:57:10 and from within a program, if you launch piped children, you still have to manage asynchronicity yourself 21:57:11 I'm defparameter'ing in one defun, but when I later use it, it claims that it is undefined 21:57:21 cmd1 | monitor | cmd2 | monitor | cmd3 | monitor | cmd4 21:57:23 (In the same defun and in other defuns) 21:57:34 And with the right macrology, | --> |monitor|. 21:57:59 pjb: right, you could create something nice in lisp that addresses such issues 21:58:07 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.173.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:58:26 as long as each process called obeys things like the right monitor interface, etc 21:59:53 and in the "cmd | monitor | cmd | monitor ..." chain, the monitoring stuff still has to have some sort of back-channel to your main program, unless you do some pass-through protocol in the cmds themselves 22:00:17 once you get into all these issues, doing real interconnectivity certainly seems much more pleasant than trying to hack your program around pipes 22:00:25 that's the main problem with the | notation: it works only for a single set of pipes. 22:00:43 yep 22:00:50 You can design a lisp DSL to hook up more interesting pipe geometries. 22:01:28 but each program you launch with the OS still just has that fixed set of 3 channels 22:02:08 Phoodus: not exactly. It's the shell that opens those file descriptors for the forked process. 22:02:53 I meant if you bypass the shell and do a lisp DSL which launches external processes iself 22:03:47 THe shell can open different FD easily. In bash: some-command 3< input opens another fd. 22:03:55 ah, that's what you mean 22:04:01 "shell" = any program that call fork+exec. 22:04:32 So, 0 = stdin, 1 = stdout, 2 = stderr is just a convention (implemented in stdlib). 22:04:50 but I still wouldn't build a system around such features 22:05:15 heck, we had tons of problems trying to get lisp itself talking binary on stdin/stdout when launched from other processes 22:05:26 But you could add conventions. Of course, when you do: cmd 3< file, you either need to have a convention for fd=3, or do something like: cmd --input-fd=3 3< file 22:05:28 differences between the different lisp implementations, etc 22:05:39 ejbs [~user@d83-183-51-82.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 22:06:06 went to sockets, all solved. Plus launch whatever you want dynamically whenever 22:07:36 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:07:55 Yes, using sockets has a lot of advantages. 22:09:42 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.131] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:10:07 Writing SETF expanders, where can I read about that? 22:12:52 ejbs: there are some examples on news:comp.lang.lisp 22:13:58 SETF expanders? Surely the hyperspec would be a good start? 22:15:37 ejbs: clhs 5.1 covers it 22:16:30 nyef: madnificent I found some examples :). pjb Really? I may check it out 22:17:49 also, you can grep the code of various libraries. 22:19:23 ejbs: what do you want to accomplish? 22:19:42 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 22:20:05 madnificent: It's really simple (or at least it should be), I've got this basically: 22:20:17 (use paste.lisp.org if it's big) 22:20:34 (defun f (b x y) (nth y (nth x b)) 22:21:07 (defun (setf f) (v b x y) (setf (nth y (nth x b)) v)) 22:21:36 -!- osa1 [~sinan@141.196.17.6] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:21:50 pjb: that was extremely fast, did you use a copy-paste combo-like thing? or did i have a short lag on something? 22:21:55 pjb: v? 22:22:00 madnificent: It was extremely fast 22:22:05 ejbs: the first argument you receive is the value 22:22:19 pjb: perhaps an emacs macro for creating a quick conversion? 22:22:20 ejbs: v = the new value. 22:22:37 ejbs: so you call it like so (setf (f b x y) v) 22:23:13 ejbs: it works similarly with methods btw, though you mustn't specialise on value in that case 22:24:49 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:25:09 -!- coyo [~unf@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:25:27 Uhuuuh... Well, I'm gonna think about that until I get it. 22:25:29 s/specialise/specialize/ 22:25:33 -!- onembk [~onembk@np34.co.returnpath.net] has left #lisp 22:25:45 duomo [~duomo@cpe-67-248-14-24.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:25:49 Cosman246: no problem 22:25:59 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:00 -!- HG` [~HG@dsbg-4db578b9.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: HG`] 22:28:25 ejbs: rewrite it with longer method and variable names, that'll make it clearer. the example i like to give works like so (defparameter *magic* 10) (defun magic () (- *magic* 10)) (defun (setf magic) (value) (setf *magic* (+ value 10))) (magic) (setf (magic) 100) (magic) 22:28:33 ok, that did deserve a paste 22:29:15 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:29:23 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:29:37 nialo [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:45 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@158-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:32:09 lemoinem [~swoog@205.233.82.48] has joined #lisp 22:33:35 -!- ejbs [~user@d83-183-51-82.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:36:40 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.19.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:37:59 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.61.130] has joined #lisp 22:38:00 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.61.130] has quit [Changing host] 22:38:00 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 22:40:16 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.112.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:41:45 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@bg266-1-88-183-246-56.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:43:24 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@242.Red-88-24-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:52:17 hagish [~hagish@p5DCBD72D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:25 -!- hydo [~cmoore@216.160.113.173] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:52:31 hydo [~hydo@216.160.113.173] has joined #lisp 22:52:45 ASau`` [~user@95-26-89-189.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 22:53:12 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:53:27 -!- ASau` [~user@95-26-89-189.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:56:16 Something is wrong in loop.... 22:56:28 "undefined variable DO" 22:56:29 Something's rotten in Loop. 22:57:11 How the hell did that happen? 22:57:13 Cosman246: Doubtful, look harder. 22:57:30 hmmmmm 22:57:32 (loop for x from do (print x)) 22:58:06 (loop for i in (mapcar ...) do (progn...)) 22:58:25 Oh, I think I used i in that progn 22:58:32 hmmmm 22:58:46 (loop for i in (mapcar ...) do (progn...)) works here. 22:58:52 I need to rewrite that.... 22:58:56 Wait 22:58:56 (loop for i in (mapcar '1+ '(1 2 3)) do (progn (print i))) works here I mean. (ie. use real code). 22:58:56 no 22:58:57 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@242.Red-88-24-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 22:58:59 i does work 22:59:08 but DO doesn't///// 22:59:11 *..... 22:59:49 (loop for do in (mapcar '1+ '(1 2 3)) do (progn (print do))) works too. 23:00:01 No, no... 23:00:11 ddp_ [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has joined #lisp 23:01:44 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@h134n3c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Quit: add^_] 23:01:45 (loop for i in (mapcar #'(lambda (x y z) (concatenate 'string x y z)) env-before sound env-after) do (progn ....)) 23:01:55 that's still not real code! 23:01:57 where env-before, sound, and env-after are lists 23:01:59 show us real code! 23:02:45 ((and (listp sound)(listp env-before)(listp env-after)) ;If sound, env-before, and env-after are lists, then... 23:02:45 (loop 23:02:45 for i in (mapcar #'(lambda (x y z) (concatenate 'string x y z)) env-before sound env-after) 23:02:45 do (progn 23:02:45 (defparameter *i i) 23:02:47 (defparameter *result (cl-ppcre:regex-replace sound i result)) 23:02:48 (setf *lexicon* (cl-ppcre:regex-replace-all *i *lexicon* *result :preserve-case t))))) 23:03:17 (this is a cond clause) 23:03:19 Don't use defparameter out of top-level. 23:03:24 Cosman246: please, paste.lisp.org 23:03:28 Name special variables with two stars *i*. 23:03:31 I should really use let.... 23:03:44 Don't use special variables for local variables, use lexical variables! 23:04:07 -!- ddp [~ddp@anon-158-71.relakks.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:04:07 -!- ddp_ is now known as ddp 23:04:11 I understand, and I'll modify that, but do you know what's wrong with do here? 23:04:41 Nothing wrong apparently. 23:04:50 Hm 23:04:59 *Cosman246* scratches head 23:05:23 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:05:34 -!- Nauntilus [~Benji@wsip-68-14-222-194.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:06:01 That's really strange, as that's the reason sbcl says it doesn't want to compile 23:07:25 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:07:51 lbc [~quassel@h198.natout.aau.dk] has joined #lisp 23:08:19 pnq [~nick@ACA39EE9.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 23:09:47 -!- nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:10:34 Cosman246: look, there's no error about DO: http://paste.lisp.org/display/126586 23:11:01 -!- hydo [~hydo@216.160.113.173] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 23:13:11 lolsuper_ [~super_@pool-173-65-194-148.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:11 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@pool-173-65-194-148.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:13:11 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 23:13:26 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:14:59 Thanks! 23:15:26 (result is an arg) 23:15:46 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128020214.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:15:50 Strange name for a parameter... 23:16:16 Anyways again the point is to provide REAL code! Otherwise we cannot debug it . 23:16:27 Thank you once again 23:16:57 -!- felideon [~user@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:18:42 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-92-96-25.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:19:30 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:21:30 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 23:23:01 -!- naryl [~weechat@188.134.95.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:29:00 tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.56.162.222] has joined #lisp 23:29:11 am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.178] has joined #lisp 23:29:23 Is there a slime command for disassembling a method object? 23:29:33 -!- rme [rme@A955740.5174A474.699BA7A6.IP] has quit [Ping timeout] 23:29:35 rme_ [~rme@50.43.130.95] has joined #lisp 23:30:47 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.147.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:30:47 -!- rme_ is now known as rme 23:32:37 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA39EE9.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:32:38 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.169.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:32:46 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:37:46 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:38:01 naryl [~weechat@188.134.95.93] has joined #lisp 23:46:46 snearch [~snearch@g231108243.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:47:55 mon_key: C-h m then search for disassemble 23:48:05 in the REPL 23:49:02 C-h m in REPL, not search, obviously 23:51:37 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:55:11 -!- tensorpudding_ is now known as tensorpudding 23:56:12 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:59:20 nyef [~nyef@173-162-147-14-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp