00:03:10 does sbcl run on ms windows? 00:03:16 without cygwin 00:03:48 yep 00:04:08 nice 00:04:42 also, (unofficial friendly fork, multithreading + some other goodies) 00:04:44 -!- Guest71314 [klutometis@klutometis.wikitex.org] has quit [Changing host] 00:04:44 Guest71314 [klutometis@pdpc/supporter/professional/klutometis] has joined #lisp 00:04:52 -!- Guest71314 is now known as klutometis 00:05:24 no death kittens 00:05:40 no death kittens with --noinform, actually :) 00:05:42 there is always death kittens 00:06:02 and they're nice. 00:06:02 they're just hidding 00:09:33 -!- ISF__ [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:10:27 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.20.102] has joined #lisp 00:10:27 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.9] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:11:02 mlkth [~mlkith@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 00:11:48 death kittens ^_^ 00:13:24 -!- Guest93718 [~Kron@69.166.26.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:18:14 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@188-67-240-100.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:18:30 Kron [~Kron@69.166.26.192] has joined #lisp 00:18:56 -!- Kron is now known as Guest15761 00:19:30 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 00:20:47 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:20:52 iwillig [~ivan@ool-ad03c1a0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:21:22 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.20.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:21:32 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0CD0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 00:22:03 Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #lisp 00:22:39 ISF__ [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has joined #lisp 00:26:05 Taslem [40e9e315@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.233.227.21] has joined #lisp 00:26:39 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!] 00:27:00 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 00:33:57 -!- meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:36:21 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-108-18-171-26.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:38:57 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:39:26 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.12.61] has joined #lisp 00:39:56 [SLB] [~balthasar@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 00:43:59 -!- Taslem [40e9e315@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.233.227.21] has left #lisp 00:47:27 meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 00:52:57 -!- epsil [~vegard@ti0145a380-0200.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:53:08 hypesthesic [~president@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 00:54:08 Hmmm 00:58:06 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:59:02 -!- Cosman246 [~cosman246@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:59:33 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-152-39.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:31 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:00:54 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-209-191.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:54 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-209-191.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:00:54 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 01:06:03 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-155-193-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:10:33 wadexing [~wadexing@219.234.141.122] has joined #lisp 01:11:17 -!- chenbing` [~user@115.206.199.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:16:24 sysop_fb [~bleh@108-66-160-34.lightspeed.spfdmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:15 -!- mlkth [~mlkith@76.73.16.26] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC] 01:20:18 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:26:28 Shin-LaC [~LaC@adsl-69-211-96-67.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:27 wedgeV_ [~wedge@cpe-68-173-18-241.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:28:15 is there a training wheels mode for emacs and slime? something that shows you the available commands? 01:28:58 there's M-x slime-cheat-sheet. 01:29:16 C-h b in emacs gives you a list of the currently active bindings. 01:29:40 wedgeV__ [~wedge@cpe-68-173-18-241.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:30:07 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-68-173-18-241.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:30:07 -!- wedgeV__ is now known as wedgeV 01:30:29 hm 01:30:38 it would be nice to have something context-sensitive, though 01:30:54 for instance, after you press C-x, it would show you what commands are available that begin with C-x 01:31:26 C-h b (describe-bindings) 01:32:04 Shin-LaC: you can press C-h after any prefix key, and it'll show you all the bindings starting with that prefix 01:32:07 (it's very handy) 01:32:25 also, there's a mode that tells you which bindings invoked that command you ran using M-x 01:32:27 -!- wedgeV_ [~wedge@cpe-68-173-18-241.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:32:32 (I forget what the name of that is) 01:32:39 antifuchs: i think it's on by default. 01:32:44 oh, cool 01:33:33 icomplete-mode shows key bindings on M-x completion 01:34:55 thanks 01:40:25 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl20-201-44.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 01:40:37 -!- Cryotank2011 [~Cryotank2@c-24-17-62-152.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Cryotank2011] 01:52:08 -!- guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-xlwwgqardfjzzlcv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:53:03 guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-yjyqhnzttdmddinr] has joined #lisp 02:01:01 l_r [~lr@adsl-ull-153-2.42-151.net24.it] has joined #lisp 02:01:03 hello 02:01:16 i am getting mad with lisp again 02:02:01 i have an environment called sbcl. do you know how can I simply quit the program? SB-EXT:QUIT does not work 02:03:35 l_r: What happens? 02:03:35 (quit) works for me 02:04:01 Shin-LaC: there's also C-h w, which tells you the binding for a specific M-x command, and C-h k, which tells you what a keybind does 02:04:19 sellout-: hear about the LLVM API changes? 02:04:33 Ralith: I had not. New version out? 02:04:38 3.0 02:04:48 they made some changes to the type system 02:05:09 nothing massive, but it'll need porting 02:05:12 I hang out in #llvm, but it doesn't even qualify as lurking. 02:05:27 also possibly upstreaming C API updates; haven't checked if they kept that up to date yet 02:05:35 judging from its shoddy state in 2.8 I doubt it 02:14:25 Forty-3 [~kvirc@pool-96-255-130-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:16:01 sellout-: tons of change since 2.8 02:16:37 pkhuong: My CL library is at 2.9. 02:16:40 Even porting from 2.9 would entail a lot of mostly mechanical edits. 02:17:12 sellout-: even at 2.9 there was some broken stuff, unless that changed 02:17:18 a few undefined aliens 02:18:37 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 02:19:28 Ralith: Oh, i thought that it had all caught up to 2.9. Well, time to revisit it again, anyway. 02:19:41 my information may be obsolete. 02:19:53 my compiler stuff has been backburnered for a month or two 02:21:35 -!- ignas_ [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:25:42 LiamH [~healy@pool-108-18-171-26.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:57 -!- alvis [~alvis@tx-71-2-120-116.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:33:55 SlayersZ [~SlayersZ@70.65.233.0] has joined #lisp 02:33:59 evening xD 02:35:42 Yuuhi``` [benni@p5483B59D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:24 -!- SlayersZ [~SlayersZ@70.65.233.0] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:37:41 -!- Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483CBCC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:37:56 SlayersZ [~SlayersZ@70.65.233.0] has joined #lisp 02:38:34 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:41:08 alvis [~alvis@tx-71-2-120-116.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 02:41:48 gio123 [c1899c93@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.137.156.147] has joined #lisp 02:41:52 hi 02:42:05 is there lambda calculus experts? 02:43:48 teggi [148b9232@gateway/web/freenode/ip.20.139.146.50] has joined #lisp 02:44:07 dang, I find myself with a bunch of spare time, and github's web servers are erroring like crazy ): 02:44:17 gio123: yes there are 02:44:33 are you? 02:44:38 no 02:44:50 oh, backend storage even 02:44:51 just ask, don't ask to ask 02:45:17 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-68-173-18-241.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 02:45:42 kushal [~kdas@116.203.207.101] has joined #lisp 02:45:42 -!- kushal [~kdas@116.203.207.101] has quit [Changing host] 02:45:42 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 02:47:29 ok 02:47:45 I have specific question... 02:47:58 -!- Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:47:58 so, is not right chanell... 02:48:57 -!- meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:53:09 gio123: go ask in #math ? 02:57:10 When translating loop's (and foo = ...) to iterate, should I use previous or is there something else? 02:57:29 sooo, I take it monkeylib-html doesn't allow conditional attributes? 02:58:31 _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has joined #lisp 02:59:19 ah, hah, I can use :format for this 02:59:22 EWWWWW 03:00:17 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.221.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:00:29 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has quit [Client Quit] 03:02:20 _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has joined #lisp 03:03:09 -!- dagda [~dagda_@c-98-245-158-2.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:03:15 pnq [~nick@ACA2B0ED.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 03:05:36 tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.56.7] has joined #lisp 03:07:46 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-bictuaeeazyrcnfa] has joined #lisp 03:09:41 where does one find documentation on the functions, etc. available in one's lisp, and is it possible to query this information from a repl? 03:10:43 (apropos "function") 03:10:50 if I have: for all x satisfies condition H we have ax=M and for all x satisfies condition H we have bx=M can I conclude ax=bx ? 03:11:06 for the list, (describe "function" for some basic docs) 03:11:13 erm 03:11:22 (describe "function") 03:11:27 theres also (documentation 'list 'function) 03:11:44 oh, convenient 03:11:56 i am wrong, it is (describe 'function) 03:12:02 mind the quoting 03:12:07 i saw the (documentation ...) function, but it doesn't seem to work for me 03:12:19 wait, i'm doing it wrong 03:12:25 (documentation 'car 'function) 03:12:34 for some reason tried #'function instead of 'function 03:12:51 but for built in functions I mostly go strait to the hyperspec, which I have connected to a key combo from slime 03:13:25 hmm 03:13:45 what is hyperspec? 03:13:56 i noticed it when i mucked about in slime 03:14:21 it's the electronic version of the CL specification 03:14:47 the elpa package lacks it 03:15:03 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/Contents.htm (I don't remember how I set up a local copy frankly) 03:15:45 *eMBee* also didn't get (documentation), but (describe 'documentation) explains it :-) second argument can be VARIABLE, FUNCTION, STRUCTURE, TYPE, SETF, and T 03:17:04 aparently there is a package for clhs here: https://github.com/Hexstream/clhs (when github is back online in an hour) 03:17:20 as it lacked all of the cl bits of slime 03:17:41 and throwing the cl bits into it made it work with cl but not very well 03:18:25 what relation does lispworks have with the cl spec? 03:18:42 It implements it 03:18:53 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:18:57 I believe they sponsored the electronic translation of the spec 03:19:10 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 03:19:25 eMBee: By the way github appears to be up 03:20:15 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2B0ED.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 03:22:26 oh, good, they they had a downtime window until the end of this hour 03:24:02 replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 03:24:14 ok, so https://github.com/Hexstream/clhs works with emacs and slime. i'd like a (lookup) command that works directly in the repl 03:24:38 -!- ISF__ [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:24:44 bah, this cvs slime checkout is no good 03:26:06 -!- gio123 [c1899c93@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.137.156.147] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:26:23 install slime with quicklisp, should be an older version, likely more stable 03:28:40 quicklisp...is that in ubuntu somewhere 03:29:12 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 03:29:40 beta.quicklisp.org 03:29:44 more importantly, what exactly does it do to install slime 03:30:02 quicklisp is a repository for lisp libraries and packages 03:30:19 pnq [~nick@ACA26E99.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 03:30:50 your best bet in installing any addon packages. it will get the right version for your lisp implementation and all the dependencies 03:31:21 QL installs lisp libraries into ~/quicklisp/.../, including slime, and it will also append a couple lines to your your lisp init file (and IIRC your .emacs) to set up slime. 03:31:37 is that configurable 03:31:53 yes 03:32:27 all i want to do is quickly try out their version of slime to figure out if the problems i'm having with it are due to a bad version 03:34:03 should be easy and quick: load quicklisp.lisp from that page, follow instructions (one command to run) and then (cl:quickload "quicklisp-slime-helper") 03:35:15 it's saying that quickload wasn't found in the cl package 03:35:33 ooops typo 03:35:39 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:35:43 ql:quickload of course 03:35:52 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.190.39.231] has joined #lisp 03:36:10 as the instructions say after you got quicklisp installed 03:36:41 i hope it doesn't wreck my current slime install 03:36:58 -!- ASau`` is now known as ASau 03:37:02 it shouldn't, it should put everything into a quicklisp subdir 03:37:12 well, it copied a ton of stuff to ~/.slime 03:37:23 oh, hmm 03:38:33 okay, the one that quicklisp installed works 03:38:49 now i have to shoehorn it into where the elpa package is... 03:38:49 ah, great 03:38:54 and see if it works then 03:40:52 oh, they seem to wrap it in a bunch of other stuff 03:42:27 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA26E99.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 03:43:41 mon_key` [~user@69.64.7.202] has joined #lisp 03:43:42 -!- mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:47:38 DataLinkDroid [~David@CPE-121-212-131-12.lns10.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 03:48:05 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Quit: bye] 03:48:15 ugh, seriously... 03:48:49 copying the working cvs copy of slime from the quicklisp dist directory, and loading it using emacs directly as per the slime instructions, it doesn't work 03:49:03 dys` [~andreas@krlh-4d02b874.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:50:20 -!- dys [~andreas@krlh-d9be7a4b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:52:29 interesting, so the problem is elsewhere 03:53:29 what kind of error are you getting? can it find the lisp runtime and the swank server? 03:53:52 *eMBee* doesn't know anything about slime, just making general guesses 03:53:58 jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:08 -!- ASau [~user@176.14.209.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:58:34 ASau [~user@95-27-186-234.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 04:01:51 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.190.39.231] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 04:02:23 i figured it out, somewhat 04:02:33 now i kinda have it running the way i want 04:04:03 -!- teggi [148b9232@gateway/web/freenode/ip.20.139.146.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:04:09 ugh, i keep forgetting 04:04:41 now slime works with cl well and doesn't work with clojure, when i started the opposite was true 04:04:44 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 04:05:04 I blame the clojurians 04:06:11 i think it's because swank-clojure is keyed to the version of slime that is packaged 04:06:26 the package doesn't include swank though 04:06:36 so you can't use it with cl 04:06:57 yeah, the reluctance to bring swank-clojure up-to-date wrt the slime head is rather annoying 04:07:28 they probably got turned off by how slime uses cvs 04:07:33 i mean seriously, cvs 04:07:38 i've heard this relucatance is due to a lack of stable releases on the part of the swank team, which I claim is a bogus non-reason 04:07:50 umm... i get slime from git these days 04:07:59 must be an unofficial channel 04:08:02 perhaps it's a mirror though 04:08:29 ah yes, antifuchs... 04:08:45 but i think it's more troublesome that the slime packaged with elpa doesn't have swank in it 04:09:17 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.19.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:09:24 *beslyrus* ignores elpa 04:09:27 i'd be willing to use the 18 month old version of slime in elpa with cl, but i can't, because it doesn't have swank 04:09:28 swank is the CL side, shouldn't it not be in an elisp package repository? 04:09:41 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 04:10:21 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.19.108] has joined #lisp 04:10:27 I'm not sure it would work but maybe you could figure out the version in elpa, pull slime, checkout the old version, extract swank, take a tylenol 04:10:43 i had that notion 04:11:13 -!- DataLinkDroid [~David@CPE-121-212-131-12.lns10.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: Bye] 04:11:24 but i have no idea how to tell cvs to check out a version by when it happened 04:12:05 hmm 04:13:32 get the clojurians to fix swank-clojure 04:14:08 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0CD0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:14:57 assuming that the version mismatch is the issue, and not something else 04:15:26 -!- iwillig [~ivan@ool-ad03c1a0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:17:19 was talking to the guy who wrote it a few minutes ago 04:17:23 ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has joined #lisp 04:18:10 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 04:20:33 i'm trying very hard to use elpa for everything 04:20:47 -!- ayrnieu [~julian@50.15.104.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:21:35 Cosman246 [~cosman246@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:03 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:24:42 teggi [148b9232@gateway/web/freenode/ip.20.139.146.50] has joined #lisp 04:27:12 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:27:24 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA06E1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 04:29:22 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 04:33:18 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.83] has joined #lisp 04:34:19 -!- ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:36:23 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 04:41:41 cfy [~cfy@122.228.135.215] has joined #lisp 04:41:50 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.135.215] has quit [Changing host] 04:41:50 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 04:47:25 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:47:42 _pw_ [~user@123.112.77.227] has joined #lisp 04:52:42 tensorpudding: dunno if anyone suggested this yet, but you can get slime from quicklisp via slime-quicklisp-helper 04:52:55 it was 04:53:10 i did it, and got a working slime for cl that doesn't work for clojure, which is what i'm using at present 04:53:18 ooh, that's annoying 04:53:35 yeah, I believe the clojure swank relies on some specific slime version 04:53:42 that is my assessment 04:53:50 elpa uses that version 04:53:58 ah, then ((: 04:55:33 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-157-60.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:57:44 Cryotank2011 [~Cryotank2@c-24-17-62-152.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:58:22 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.19.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:59:46 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-bictuaeeazyrcnfa] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:00:20 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-fpopukqpltqbidej] has joined #lisp 05:00:53 Demosthenes [~demo@ma50436d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 05:02:45 -!- bwright [~bwright@c122-106-254-100.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:07:21 kushal [~kdas@116.203.216.16] has joined #lisp 05:07:21 -!- kushal [~kdas@116.203.216.16] has quit [Changing host] 05:07:21 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:08:23 -!- DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:08:33 DGASAU` [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #lisp 05:09:19 wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-24-193-124-224.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:10:28 is there a more concise way to mod a list with x, than using a for i in list collect (mod i x) ? 05:10:57 (mapcar 'mod list) 05:11:06 -!- Guest15761 [~Kron@69.166.26.192] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 05:11:08 chenbing [~user@115.192.215.143] has joined #lisp 05:11:22 (mapcar (lambda (x) (mod i x)) list), rather. 05:12:01 ah, didn't know about lambdas in lisp. map 'list would also work I guess? 05:12:12 yes. 05:12:25 awesome, thanks 05:12:48 tensorpudding: one strategy would be to get the ELPA folks to update their slime version. that would probably force the clojurians hand. 05:12:52 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:13:14 Or (mapcar (alexandria:curry #'mod i) list), depending on taste. 05:13:25 the guy who uploaded slime is the guy who created swank-clojure 05:14:01 pinterface: alexandria? 05:14:13 meh 05:14:16 i know, but surely one could lobby for including a newer slime 05:14:20 i said elpa, when i meant marmalade 05:14:58 why would i want to break my clojure setup? 05:15:38 so you can fix your lisp setup! 05:16:03 your clojure setup only works by accident (well, by sticking with an ancient version of slime anyway) 05:16:16 that's not by accident, that's by design 05:16:58 fine, a train intentionally driven off the tracks isn't strictly an accident 05:17:00 i reasonably expect that cl would work anyway if the package included the right .lisp files 05:17:08 it's still a disaster 05:18:50 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-108-18-171-26.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:19:47 -!- pferor`` [~user@122.Red-2-137-179.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:20:37 it's not optimal at all, for sure 05:21:34 rvrebane [~rvrebane@valjapaas.vkhk.ee] has joined #lisp 05:22:07 I'm trying to append items to a global list, but the list remains unchanged. In my main function I've used (setq l '( #\( )) and in another function I do (append l '(a)) but when I print out l at the end of main it only contains #\( 05:22:15 -!- teggi [148b9232@gateway/web/freenode/ip.20.139.146.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:22:20 Should I do (setq l.... somewhere else other than main? 05:23:25 i dunno, i'm of the opinion that the slime team should actually do releases 05:24:31 so that there isn't a moving target 05:25:07 drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:45 tensorpudding: you're not alone holding that opinion (: 05:31:20 tensorpudding: also, maybe versioning the comms protocol might help (and not wildly restructuring it on a whim) (: 05:31:27 but oh well 05:32:09 I also agree with this, but as antifuchs said, oh well 05:32:10 kfizz: append returns a list 05:32:52 that and moving off cvs 05:32:59 that doesn't bother me though 05:33:09 but tarball releases would be good 05:33:33 pretty sure slime is the only thing i've seen still using cvs as its primary system at the moment 05:34:06 I use plenty of software still on cvs, not necessarily lisp software though 05:35:27 have you tried to get it switched off? 05:35:54 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@ma50436d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:36:08 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:37:39 wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:38:56 tensorpudding: nope, it's not a problem imo 05:39:39 well, i feel that it is 05:39:54 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 05:39:54 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@87.247.49.17] has joined #lisp 05:40:53 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:40:59 with cvsup or rsync one can have a mirror, with vendor branches and a set of cvs pserver+webcvs one can easily have and distribute the changes, etc 05:42:19 Demosthenes [~demo@ma50436d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 05:42:44 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 05:43:52 Utkarsh: Alexandria is a library with assorted useful utilities (such as curry). 05:46:35 seems like way too much work 05:47:30 i mean, just trying to get files from a cvs server requires a massive, confusing line 05:48:13 i wouldn't even know where to start to try and get my own copy of the repo, make changes and send them back 05:48:49 why bother, when there are modern tools that do it better? 05:48:50 unfamiliar things are unfamiliar. 05:48:54 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 05:49:55 Antifuchs maintains a small set of git mirrors over at ; SLIME is in there. 05:50:05 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:50:14 wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:53:34 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:53:47 i saw it 05:54:27 i'll check it out eventually, but i mean, my main issue is that clojure is tied to one slime version, and i know of no easy way of running more than one version at once 05:55:05 tensorpudding: different emacs instances and config files, maybe. 05:55:23 that'd be pretty terrible 05:55:36 most of my config is in packages 05:55:40 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-24-193-124-224.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 05:56:58 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 06:00:39 bwright [~bwright@c122-106-254-100.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:01:19 tensorpudding: complain to clojure-swank maintainer 06:01:32 i did 06:02:08 last time i did that the conversation degenerated into us vs them 06:02:21 that is what it seems to be 06:02:34 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:02:40 they don't like working with slime because slime doesn't have releases 06:02:41 but i see no reason why their bridge should not be in SLIME cvs 06:02:59 i brought that up 06:03:03 -!- kfizz [~kyle@74.197.120.228] has left #lisp 06:03:17 they won't try merging swank-clojure unless the slime devs switch to git 06:03:36 (and produce releases) 06:03:55 well i guess that's too bad for those who use clojure/emacs 06:04:35 -!- el-maxo [~max@p57A5614A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:05:18 i mostly agree with their logic though 06:05:44 i had nothing but trouble with the crap they bundle 06:05:45 clojure is a predominantly git-centric community 06:06:05 i seldom have issues with SLIME 06:06:07 slime's use of cvs is backwards and insular 06:06:27 el-maxo [~max@p5DE8E02C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:06:44 i find it strange that they keep the cvs, given that they use launchpad for their bugtracker 06:06:57 -!- dys` is now known as dys 06:07:16 hooray for our side! 06:07:39 yeah, your partisanship is offputting too 06:07:59 there also was resistance when someone mentioned launchpad on the lists heh 06:08:27 err on the slime-devel list 06:08:37 what did they use for bugs before that? 06:09:00 tensorpudding: that was a joke. quoting buffalo springfield... 06:10:09 i really like lp's bugtracking more than the other ones i've used 06:13:35 beslyrus: I figure you might have an opinion on the matter: what sort of views do you think tamas papp had in mind when he decided that affine transformations weren't enough? 06:14:09 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@ma50436d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:14:38 Demosthenes [~demo@ma50436d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 06:15:05 pkhuong: enough for what? 06:16:16 wow. ECONTEXT much (: Sorry. views over arrays. 06:17:56 H4ns [~user@64.206.187.68] has joined #lisp 06:18:03 -!- H4ns [~user@64.206.187.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:18:14 wolfpython [~wolf@180.109.82.52] has joined #lisp 06:18:17 H4ns [~user@64.206.187.68] has joined #lisp 06:18:32 pkhuong: ERETRY... is this from a blog post or #lisp scrollback? 06:19:41 One blog post from late 2010. It seems to be the only documentation on his xarray package. 06:21:07 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 06:25:59 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-154-202.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:27:35 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 06:27:51 pkhuong: 2009 post maybe? are the permutations an example of a non-affine transformation that he uses? 06:27:58 if so, that seems useful enough 06:30:08 It does seems to be the only additional thing so far. I'd be ok with just implementing that as an actual copy, but that's not the same as a view over a mutable array. 06:33:23 tensorpudding: _the_ slime maintainer doesn't give a damn about launchpad... it's a bunch of random guys why try to make use of a modern tool, but "official" slime opinion is complete ignorance of it 06:33:44 really? 06:33:54 tensorpudding: yes really. 06:34:19 the actual maintainer of slime does not read bugs from the bugtracker? 06:35:05 tensorpudding: this said the clojurians are on the wrong side of the dispute and your barking up the wrong tree if you expect the CL'ers to adjust SLIME to suiter "their" needs... 06:35:30 -!- H4ns [~user@64.206.187.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:36:22 tensorpudding: it is irrelevant whether the "maintainer(s)" read the bugs or not -- the bugtracker is not official 06:36:24 helmut is a very convervative guy, and one of those burning-inside-quietly-before-blowing-up-and-educating-you-about-what-is-proper-hacking-like-in-the-eighties 06:36:25 Damn those clojurians and their evil ways. 06:36:54 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 06:37:10 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.49.17] has quit [Changing host] 06:37:11 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 06:37:13 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:37:32 -!- chp [~user@c-68-45-180-238.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:37:39 there's no way of telling that the bugtracker isn't official from their website 06:37:59 right b/c it isn't official! 06:38:09 for the record, I used to have even a commit bit to the slime cvs, but as I got to know somewhat afterwards, I was non-compliant and got removed 06:39:08 slime bug-tracker is an official way to report bugs to me 06:39:25 but slime is in a very sorry state... if you consider the number of lisp programmers using slime daily (I guess hundreds), and the number of commits in the slime repo... not to mention the number of different comitters... 06:39:35 And I'm left wondering what makes a bugtracker official. 06:39:38 well, its utility should be judged in how well bugs reported there get fixed in the actual software 06:39:58 how many slime commiters are there? 06:39:59 could always fork it 06:40:49 pkhuong: A big flag/banner with stars and fancy script that says "Official bugtracker of Slime -- supported and read by the maintainer(s)" :-) 06:40:50 Vivitron: actively working on useful features as opposed to one-liner fixes? in the ballpark of 5... 06:41:05 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@ma50436d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:41:05 there are already forks of it on github 06:41:31 Demosthenes [~demo@ma50436d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 06:41:33 tensorpudding: so use a fork and be done with it then 06:41:45 mon_key`: it's read by at least one maintainer and linked from slime's c-l.net page. 06:42:07 Ralith: I've forked long ago. then slime's one-big-file got reorganized (suggesting that made me a non-compliant shortly before that), which fucked up all my changes. and there are numerous forks of slime with non-trivial wasted efforts, none of them in CVS 06:42:16 pkhuong: Yes, indeed it is :-) 06:42:38 import it to github, get some unity going 06:42:40 not forks in the emacs/xemacs sense, but in the git sense 06:42:52 anyway, you're safe to report actual bugs to launchpad, i'll fix them, if they're feature requests or low priority bugs, then i'll fix them more slowly 06:43:54 tensorpudding: how do you want to fork in the git sense with e.g. this attitude towards ASDF, the main system loading architecture of the community: http://git.boinkor.net/gitweb/slime.git/commit/c72fa5b8171483c13c1df5ce7f5def0a76768605 06:44:03 attila_lendvai stassats: I got the impression from stassats that Slime maintainers are very conservative w/r/t feature creep 06:44:31 i don't know what asdf is 06:44:46 i have only used cl briefly 06:45:23 FTR I think this is a sane position. If every CLer got all of the features they wanted incorporated into Slime it would be a _disaster_ 06:45:33 mon_key`: I agree if you point out that those mainteiners are helmut. if you look at the commit of others, they are just complying. (but it's only my subjective impression reading the commits, the list, and talking to those people) 06:46:41 H4ns [~user@64.206.187.68] has joined #lisp 06:46:57 mon_key`: that's why I proposed to switch to darcs (DVCS), so that people can freely pull patches they like. I was an asshole for suggesting that, and I got educated to write a Changelog file by hand, listing changes to separate function definitions in the age of gitweb... 06:46:59 i just don't want to argue with helmut, so i hold back somewhat, although i don't like unnecessary features myself 06:47:24 -!- Forty-3 [~kvirc@pool-96-255-130-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:47:33 and that's why I proposed to cut the 10k line slime.el into smaller files... which again put me on the blacklist... 06:47:54 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-177-86.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:47:55 i didn't know that the slime devs could be so fractious 06:48:01 and now it's cut! into contribs 06:48:06 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:48:27 yeah, it was an annoyingly short from me being an asshole for suggesting it to actually helmut doing it 06:48:38 s/short/short time/ 06:48:59 and by that fucking up all my divergence that I had to rebase by hand 06:49:03 It is important that Slime works -- it does and reasonably well -- this is all that matters to me. I used to let it bother me that new/cool/snazzy features weren't incorporated -- increasingly i'm glad they aren't 06:49:47 i really like it 06:50:11 though i have been using it with cl only recently 06:50:27 slime is great, even in this form 06:50:46 the one niggle has to do with the debugger 06:51:10 but with a more liberally organized codebase in git, promoting experimentation, it could be a whole lot better... 06:51:40 and that doesn't mean that the official branch should be cluttered with random features... 06:52:14 you still need dictators that jealously guard the blessed repo 06:52:25 Just my random features, wouldn't be so bad:) 06:53:21 teggi [148b9232@gateway/web/freenode/ip.20.139.146.50] has joined #lisp 06:53:23 I don't mind the idea of dictators... what I mind is sticking to things that make the life the servants unnecessarily hard... 06:53:36 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:54:08 like cvs? 06:54:28 Vivitron: you could easily keep your random features in your repo, promote them, and then when accepted pulled over with one click to the official repo. or meanwhile pulled over by people willing to experiment... all slime users are freaking programmers! 06:54:39 wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 06:55:16 souns a bit like SLIME is managed like old GCC 06:55:28 except possibly with less annoyance 06:56:02 like cvs, like avoiding 10 lines of #+asdf that makes life a whole lot easier, like writing changelogs by hand, like sticking to bad defaults (utf-8 not being the default, not making fuzzy the default completion for newcomers, etc...) 06:57:02 like not loading the repl contrib by default, and happily answering regular mails from lost newbies on the mailing list... 06:58:12 attila_lendvai: well, it could have swank done in a way specifically targeted at making it hard to cooperate with other stuff, or retargetable to other languages or worse, commercial implementations ;) 06:58:47 -!- [SLB] [~balthasar@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:59:02 [SLB] [~balthasar@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 07:00:20 -!- df [~df@aldur.bowerham.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 07:00:38 p_l: that would be a sorry state of affairs, but I don't think that that's the case... 07:01:16 Forty-3 [~kvirc@pool-96-255-130-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:01:36 attila_lendvai: just quoting certain bits of GCC design ;) 07:01:49 steevy [~steevy@91-67-42-157-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 07:02:04 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:02:28 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 07:02:32 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 07:03:50 -!- SlayersZ [~SlayersZ@70.65.233.0] has left #lisp 07:05:39 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:08:27 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-177-86.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:11:30 -!- lghtng [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/lghtng] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:12:13 SsvRrwQ [~user@50.92.212.231] has joined #lisp 07:12:29 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 07:12:49 uhh... :) 07:12:51 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.19.108] has joined #lisp 07:13:44 what I think is that helmut is a lone lisp hacker isolated somewhere from the community, and all these random external expectations from the slime users are just a source of annoyances to him. sometimes breaking slime, sometimes introducing features he can't imagine being useful to anyone but breaking an obscure old cl impl, etc... (in a way I can understand him, but utf-8 as a default in 2011 for god's shake...) 07:15:21 attila_lendvai: what I would like would be more documentation about contribs and extending SLIME, so I could just add bits myself 07:16:02 -!- __main__ [~main@adsl-99-173-15-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:19:11 slime is moving in that direction, even if slowly... but the only big last obstacle towards that is CVS. all the other things, like having defun's with 6+ &optional's instead of using defun*, are things one can learn to live with... 07:23:37 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@ma50436d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:24:51 littlegiraffe [~start@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 07:24:56 hi guys 07:25:07 -!- littlegiraffe is now known as blahblahblah 07:25:29 __main__ [~main@adsl-99-173-15-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:25:30 does anyone know what happened to the paragent.com guys? 07:26:47 df_ [~df@aldur.bowerham.net] has joined #lisp 07:27:09 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-163-109.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:27:19 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.187.36] has joined #lisp 07:28:41 Demosthenes [~demo@ma50436d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 07:32:47 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:34:04 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:35:49 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 07:36:00 a7p [a7p@9.83.238.89.in-addr.arpa.manitu.net] has joined #lisp 07:36:27 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.187.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:37:03 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:38:16 bah, the slime repos on github are not updated from cvs anymore since 2011-05... and they are a different git converts than the one on boinkor.net (which has some errors in some of the commits which prevents it from being pushed to github) 07:40:53 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-24-51.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:40:57 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@ma50436d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:41:54 Demosthenes [~demo@ma50436d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:50 blahblahblah: no idea, but I know paragent is hosted on google code 07:45:33 phadthai: great nick btw 07:45:40 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:46:01 yeah i've been looking. but the git and svn repos are not available and i think i managed to guess one of the coders emails 07:46:06 lets see what happens 07:46:11 good morning 07:46:17 mornin 07:48:48 blahblahblah: thanks 07:49:33 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-113-242.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 07:50:07 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.56.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:50:51 -!- l_r [~lr@adsl-ull-153-2.42-151.net24.it] has quit [Quit: Sto andando via] 07:52:48 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:52:50 -!- rvrebane [~rvrebane@valjapaas.vkhk.ee] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:52:59 -!- wolfpython [~wolf@180.109.82.52] has quit [Quit: ] 07:53:21 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 07:53:45 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-193-56.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:53:58 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:54:06 waveman [~tim@203-214-39-56.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:54:10 pon1980 [~pon@195-67-88-105.customer.telia.com] has joined #lisp 07:55:11 -!- H4ns [~user@64.206.187.68] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:55:19 H4ns [~user@64.206.187.68] has joined #lisp 07:56:19 oh wait, lokos like xach worked on this 07:56:19 huh 07:56:31 -!- Adrinael [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:57:55 Adrinael [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 07:57:58 -!- Cosman246 [~cosman246@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:58:04 or maybe not 07:58:41 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@ma50436d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:58:55 -!- sacho [~sacho@90.154.207.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:03:30 Demosthenes [~demo@ma50436d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 08:05:40 kilon [~thekilon@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 08:07:36 e-user [e-user@nat/nokia/x-ehzitrqltztruzwn] has joined #lisp 08:15:18 -!- gaidal [gaidal@61.144.104.245] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:15:41 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-152-39.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: sleep] 08:16:06 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 08:16:21 gaidal [gaidal@61.144.104.40] has joined #lisp 08:17:02 am0c [~am0c@58.227.209.51] has joined #lisp 08:18:13 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.135] has joined #lisp 08:18:30 -!- luckyxus [~dolovor@46.197.40.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:18:56 -!- kilon 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insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:51:16 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 08:51:34 thanks for the help. night. 08:51:34 -!- blahblahblah [~start@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 08:51:54 newcup [newcup@peruna.fi] has joined #lisp 08:54:17 ccorn [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has joined #lisp 08:54:24 kilon [~thekilon@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 08:54:49 Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:54:57 ecraven [~nex@www.nexoid.at] has joined #lisp 08:55:35 H4ns [~user@64.206.187.68] has joined #lisp 08:55:46 anaumov [~anaumov@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has joined #lisp 08:58:53 -!- X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:59:06 X-Scale` [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 09:02:47 -!- bieber [~quassel@162-78.97-97.tampabay.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:03:02 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[~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 09:10:38 francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has joined #lisp 09:10:55 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 09:11:45 Hi, I have a lib (plain-odbc) that is using encode-universal-time, but in my data I e,ncounter an abherration like (ENCODE-UNIVERSAL-TIME 0 0 0 1 1 1111) I cannot change the data but how can I "shadow" the ENCODE-UNIVERSAL-TIME used by a library? 09:12:06 I would write my own that handles such problems 09:12:18 -!- rgrinberg [~rudi@24.52.246.61] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:12:43 -!- DaDaDosPrompt [~DaDaDosPr@75-163-225-197.clsp.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: DaDaDosPrompt] 09:12:51 why can't you filter the data? 09:13:36 francogrex: you can use :shadowing-import-from in the package definition, but you'll also need to deal with package locks. 09:13:56 Ralith: data are from a read-only DB 09:14:00 francogrex: maybe you can change the data while it is read? 09:14:14 ^ 09:14:26 I said filter, not edit. 09:14:29 H4ns`: difficult because the code is an sql 09:14:32 francogrex: is the encode-universal-time invocation in the data? i.e. are you evaluating the data that comes from the database? 09:14:37 -!- H4ns` is now known as H4ns 09:15:08 SELECT D.DATE_STARTED ... it's in this format 09:15:11 if this library is failing to correctly load a date value that the database is successfully storing, then the library is in error. 09:15:26 francogrex: why do you need to call encode-universal-time? can't you call my-encode-universal-time instead? 09:15:37 H4ns: yes the plain-odbc package converts the time to universal time automatically 09:15:45 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:15:46 francogrex: fix plain-odbc 09:15:53 I don't call it, it's defined as such in the package 09:16:19 yes need to fix it at the odbc level 09:16:42 no, you need to fix odbc itself 09:16:48 according to what you've told us, it's bugged. 09:16:56 modify the library, submit a patch 09:17:09 Ralith: show us the source code to the date parsing routine in plain-odbc 09:17:38 H4ns: I'm not francogrex1 09:17:39 ! 09:17:49 Ralith: apologies! :) 09:17:53 francogrex: that was for you 09:18:20 Posterdati [~tapioca@host160-215-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:18:55 -!- tarmil [~user@business-178-48-18-229.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:19:08 tarmil [~user@business-178-48-18-229.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:19:55 francogrex: i helped myself. maybe the easiest way is to (defun plain-odbc::timestamp-to-universal-time (adr) ...) in your own code, applying the required adjustments. 09:20:11 francogrex: you can then submit your version of that function as a patch to the plain-odbc maintaines. 09:20:34 francogrex: you might also want to fix plain-odbc::date-to-universal-time 09:20:38 H4ns: ok thanks I will try your suggestion 09:20:53 yes it is timestamp-to-universal-time 09:21:47 -!- anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:22:39 francogrex: just fix that function. if you don't want to maintain a patched version of plain-odbc, just put the fixed functions into your own program's code and make sure that it is loaded after plain-odbc. 09:22:48 did i mention that quicklisp is great today? :) 09:23:06 ok 09:23:47 -!- fantazo_ [~fantazo@178-191-171-6.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:24:13 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.33.152] has joined #lisp 09:24:13 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.33.152] has quit [Changing host] 09:24:13 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:24:37 snearch [~snearch@e178057243.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:24:48 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@62.Red-79-157-93.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 09:27:32 nopcoder [~barak@199.203.68.10] has joined #lisp 09:28:40 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 09:29:16 ikki [~ikki@189.139.221.111] has joined #lisp 09:32:42 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-lftnjvvgdfbhaxeb] has joined #lisp 09:33:27 -!- francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:33:38 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-193-56.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:34:58 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl20-201-44.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 09:40:26 tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 09:41:42 drdo` [~user@85.207.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 09:42:12 morning everybody 09:42:56 mornign 09:43:13 45PAAFKHB [~entrix@95-25-239-2.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 09:43:55 -!- drdo [~user@85.207.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:44:56 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:45:00 ayrnieu [~julian@50.15.104.42] has joined #lisp 09:45:09 peterhil` [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has joined #lisp 09:46:38 -!- stassats 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has joined #lisp 11:41:43 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 11:42:25 H4ns: it never gets old 11:43:58 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.135] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:44:17 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.135] has joined #lisp 11:45:07 pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has joined #lisp 11:50:27 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:52:53 -!- Kvaks [~kvaks@139.158.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:54:24 Kvaks [~kvaks@139.158.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 11:59:53 quarkup [~quarkup@gw-ext.tagus.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 12:01:50 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 12:03:49 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 12:04:30 Xach: what was that? 12:06:25 ASau [~user@95-27-186-234.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 12:08:17 ah, yeah. no. :) 12:09:50 i wrote a lisp circle-jerking blog post as i usually do http://symbo1ics.com/blog/?p=1229 12:10:03 *kilon* clicks 12:10:46 is there a repo where lispers put their code ? like a main hub or is lisp code all around the net ? 12:11:14 -!- Cryotank2011 [~Cryotank2@c-24-17-62-152.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Cryotank2011] 12:12:08 i try to decide where to host my project if you wonder 12:12:16 Quadrescence: well put, and beautifully formatted :) 12:12:25 kilon: i use github 12:12:30 I prefer github, but I am looking alternatives 12:12:41 H4ns: :D 12:12:46 kilon: I'm not aware of other communities, but github is widely popular around here. 12:12:49 kilon: there's common-lisp.net 12:12:51 Doesn't common-lisp.net have its own space? 12:13:11 hi 12:13:25 does anyone installed sbcl on arm arch? 12:13:42 sbcl doesn't support arm 12:13:58 (at all) 12:14:02 -!- snearch [~snearch@e178057243.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 12:14:26 nyef has a partial port, but not far enough to be actually useful 12:15:13 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-24-51.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:17:43 -!- kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:17:45 Quadrescence: i dont know whether to agree or disagree with your blog post, is certainly a delicate subject 12:18:04 but its a very good post non the less, raising interesting questions 12:18:21 kilon, I don't think the subject is delicate. Then again, I think the "answer" to the debate is quite clear. 12:18:26 mornfall_ [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 12:18:28 and thanks for the info 12:18:34 -!- PECCU [~peccu@ZL198141.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:18:35 will choose githum 12:18:36 replore_ [~replore@ntkngw268248.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:18:47 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Disconnected by services] 12:19:19 -!- mornfall_ is now known as mornfall 12:19:24 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has quit [Changing host] 12:19:24 mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has joined #lisp 12:19:33 -!- replore_ [~replore@ntkngw268248.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:19:47 -!- twopi [~tristan@lvps176-28-16-172.dedicated.hosteurope.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:20:13 (what I wrote about also implicitly ties in to When To Use Lisp Macros) 12:20:21 Quadrescence: i think the answer depends on the criterial of a programmer at the given time, for whom the code is writtent that he will read it 12:20:23 twopi [~tristan@lvps176-28-16-172.dedicated.hosteurope.de] has joined #lisp 12:21:19 I can say I have fallen in love with the names used by Lisps 12:21:22 *Lisp 12:21:27 *cant 12:21:30 *can't 12:21:32 kilon, note that I never argued that unreadable code should be tolerated. *That* is a separate subject entirely, treated well, imo, by Hans Huebner's talk at ECLM. 12:22:28 kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:23:25 Quadrescence: then it seems my lack of lisp understanding does not allow me to understand your post 12:25:28 but who knows one day I may :D 12:26:29 Quadrescence: I like the blog post, but I think you may have left out a word or two in the second to last quote box 12:27:00 it's hard to make sense of, certainly, though I can reasonably speculate as to your meaning 12:27:07 intended meaning, that is 12:28:36 nikodemus_: ok 12:29:32 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-39-0.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:29:52 sacho [~sacho@90.154.207.232] has joined #lisp 12:31:10 mikecsh [~mikecsh@203.145.92.115] has joined #lisp 12:31:25 -!- juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:33:54 -!- twopi [~tristan@lvps176-28-16-172.dedicated.hosteurope.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:34:00 PECCU [~peccu@ZL199013.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:34:05 twopi [~tristan@lvps176-28-16-172.dedicated.hosteurope.de] has joined #lisp 12:34:09 Ralith, well the explanation of the meaning of the last quote box should have been explained entirely by the preceding words 12:34:37 second to last quote box 12:34:37 not last 12:34:46 oh 12:34:53 seems to be missing something 12:36:31 teggi [~teggi@123.21.164.107] has joined #lisp 12:37:55 bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:00 Quadrescence: would I be right in understanding you to have meant "if its ast looks nicer than the ast of the thing you are comparing to, go ahead?" 12:38:52 *attila_lendvai* liked that blog post 12:39:34 Ralith, No, if the AST/S-expression form of your language in question seems elegant/nice/novel, then the language itself probably is (i.e., there's something nice about the language semantically) 12:40:22 ah, I see now 12:40:29 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:40:58 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 12:45:15 -!- quarkup [~quarkup@gw-ext.tagus.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 12:51:56 ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has joined #lisp 12:52:01 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA06E1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:55:55 -!- kennyd_ [~kennyd@78-0-200-251.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:59:15 Xach: i tried to load your l1sp-org code, but it fails with package "TBNL" not found 12:59:31 kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-74-58.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 12:59:34 meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 13:03:05 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.221.111] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:03:51 -!- twopi [~tristan@lvps176-28-16-172.dedicated.hosteurope.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:08:08 hmm 13:09:24 eMBee: How did you try to load it? 13:09:39 H4ns: plaudits 13:09:55 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:10:18 nikodemus [~nikodemus@188-67-240-100.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 13:11:59 Xach (ql:quickload 'l1sp-org) after copying it into ~/quicklisp/local-projects 13:12:28 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:12:51 eMBee: well, normally hunchentoot has a nickname of TBNL. 13:12:57 eMBee: i am unable to reproduce your failure 13:12:59 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:13:19 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:13:34 oh 13:13:55 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.44] has joined #lisp 13:14:38 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@host109-151-179-252.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:14:39 i thought tbnl is something else. hunchentoot fails too, but for that i know why (cl-ssl doesn't find the libssl.so) 13:15:07 tbnl is something else, but hunchentoot preserves the nickname 13:15:19 though not API compatibility any more, so probably dropping the nickname is in order 13:15:48 eMBee: if A depends on B and B fails to load, it is not a major surprise that A fails. 13:16:11 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-163-109.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:16:24 oudeis [~oudeis@host109-145-12-127.range109-145.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:16:40 of course, but it was not aparent that tbnl depends on hunchentoot 13:18:21 *eMBee* is looking to use the redirecting code in a commandline tool. so he tried loading without hunchentoot 13:18:35 It should be apparent that l1sp-org depends on hunchentoot, though. 13:18:55 yes of course 13:19:07 -!- xan_ [~xan@243.Red-88-1-40.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:19:26 but possibly the functions that do not deal with making the webserver are runnable even without hunchentoot present 13:19:37 then i can remove hunchentoot and use the rest 13:19:47 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.26.192] has joined #lisp 13:20:14 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@188-67-240-100.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:20:15 nikodemus` [~nikodemus@188-67-57-1.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 13:21:51 So you were thinking of something that would show/open the URL for a given function? 13:21:57 or symbol? 13:23:31 yes, that would be the first step. the second would be to load the url and show it, possibly as plain text 13:25:38 i thought of this when hexstream argued about inclusing the clhs in quicklisp. if i can install it as a package, i should be able to look it up from a function too 13:25:43 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 13:26:03 then then i realized that l1sp.org does just that kind of lookup 13:27:50 -!- waltwhite [~waltwhite@113-9-190-109.dsl.ovh.fr] has quit [Quit: waltwhite] 13:28:40 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.19.108] has joined #lisp 13:29:00 waltwhite [~waltwhite@113-9-190-109.dsl.ovh.fr] has joined #lisp 13:32:56 francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has joined #lisp 13:33:55 -!- nikodemus` [~nikodemus@188-67-57-1.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:34:10 nikodemus [~nikodemus@87-95-5-117.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 13:36:22 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@87-95-5-117.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 13:36:38 -!- literal [hinrik@w.nix.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:37:54 -!- duomo [~duomo@cpe-67-248-14-24.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 13:38:08 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-39-0.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:39:13 -!- drdo` [~user@85.207.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:39:27 -!- chromaticwt [~user@67-41-15-81.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:41:06 EXTRALONGSTRINGOFLETTERS 13:42:52 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:43:32 essol 13:44:33 -!- ignas_ [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 13:44:44 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 13:44:59 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 13:45:48 13:46:10 alex` [~alex@host62-92-static.38-88-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:48:34 literal [hinrik@w.nix.is] has joined #lisp 13:51:47 urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-205-123.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 13:52:20 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:53:45 bhyde [~bhyde@74.61.207.186] has joined #lisp 13:53:48 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl20-201-44.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 13:54:12 pnq [~nick@ACA40B88.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 13:54:47 _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.104.83] has joined #lisp 13:54:54 -!- francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:58:05 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.44] has joined #lisp 13:58:19 drwho [~drwho@208.7.157.62] has joined #lisp 14:01:20 ehu [~erik@62.140.137.150] has joined #lisp 14:02:33 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-39-0.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:03:06 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@74.61.207.186] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 14:04:00 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:04:11 -!- drwho [~drwho@208.7.157.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:04:16 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:03 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-39-0.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:05:31 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping 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[~user@116.36.195.17] has joined #lisp 14:26:48 tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.56.7] has joined #lisp 14:29:54 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-31-28-194.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 14:30:37 -!- simplucid [~user@116.36.195.17] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:30:41 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:31:25 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:31:27 simplucid [~user@116.36.195.17] has joined #lisp 14:31:42 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 14:31:46 qqq [~11@125.70.254.66] has joined #lisp 14:32:16 *Xach* writes his first describe-object method 14:32:25 -!- qqq [~11@125.70.254.66] has left #lisp 14:32:51 -!- am0c [~am0c@58.227.209.51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:32:56 -!- simplucid [~user@116.36.195.17] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:34:45 simplucid [~user@116.36.195.17] has joined #lisp 14:35:10 Xach: hmmm? You never used them before? 14:36:10 Not until today. 14:36:25 milanj [~milanj_@93-87-248-80.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 14:36:32 I use it all the time, indirectly, I just had not written one. 14:36:51 I would just punt to the inspector. 14:36:56 No more! 14:36:59 Anyone ever seen an error like this using SBCL? http://paste.lisp.org/display/126444 14:37:00 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-39-0.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:37:29 When I abort, I get "; Evaluation aborted on #." printed to the REPL. 14:39:08 Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.206.219] has joined #lisp 14:40:16 sellout-: looks like a recursive function which never stop to me 14:40:35 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.140.162] has joined #lisp 14:40:56 sellout-: I've seen that, but not in a long time and under uncertain circumstances. 14:41:28 daimrod: It's not  the 40 is the entire trace, and the locals are different at each step. 14:41:32 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:41:49 ccorn [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has joined #lisp 14:42:14 oh my bad. 14:42:18 Xach: I've been seeing it a lot the past few days (I haven't updated either SBCL or SLIME in that period, so I figure it must be something in my code  but I've seen it for a few different bugs. 14:42:25 alvis [~alvis@tx-71-2-120-116.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 14:42:46 ) 14:43:07 SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:44 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:46:45 -!- tarmil [~user@business-178-48-18-229.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:46:59 tarmil [~user@business-178-48-18-229.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 14:47:14 antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1177890443.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:47:19 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-193-56.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:47:38 Could someone help me understand the relationship between a :use keyword in a (defpackage) statement and a (require) statement? I'm using AllegroCL, and working through the SPAM chapter of Practical Common Lisp. Franz's regular expression functions are; "inside package excl, in the module regexp2." I /thought/ that no matter where I was, I should be able to get to those functions using (excl:match-re ). But that doesn't appear to b 14:48:46 It seems like if I did (defpackage foo (:use :common-lisp :excl)) I should be able to access the functions in that package. 14:49:08 functions which have been exported* 14:49:10 SurlyFrog: except the "regexp2" _module_ should also be loaded, first. 14:49:29 daimrod: yes, exported functions 14:49:53 jdz: so, us the (require) the bit that "loads" the regexp2 module? 14:49:59 s/us/is/ 14:50:11 SurlyFrog: REQUIRE is a mechanism for loading stuff. DEFPACKAGE is for defining a package and expressing its relationships with other, already-defined packages. 14:50:26 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:29 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.167.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:50:58 So, (defpackage (:use )) does *not* cause any code to be loaded. Is that correct? 14:51:00 also note that package is not a module 14:51:07 SurlyFrog: yes 14:51:26 And the difference between (require ) and (load ) is? 14:51:36 REQUIRE has vague semantics 14:51:44 At least one-argument REQUIRE. 14:51:47 dagda [~dagda_@np34.co.returnpath.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:37 But they both cause code to be loaded into the current environment. So, they sort of accomplish the same thing? 14:53:18 Sort of. In a very vague sense. 14:53:32 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:53:49 LOAD's semantics are pretty tight. 14:54:07 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:54:22 Xach: I guess I don't follow 14:54:51 Is one for system libraries and one for local code? Do they call each other? 14:55:31 SurlyFrog: i'd just avoid require unless it is really needed (i.e. to load allegro cl system libraries) 14:55:49 SurlyFrog: I second H4ns's recommendation. 14:55:54 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA40B88.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:57:12 H4ns: okay. I used it because that what Franz's documentation said to do. Perhaps, they are doing something strange. For instance, I /thought/ that if you (require) something, then its symbols would be just available to you. But what I've found is that I need to (require :regexp2) and then I still need to access the regular expression functions as (excl:match-re ...) 14:57:35 By "just available" I mean without a fully-qualified package name. 14:57:47 SurlyFrog: require and load do not change any packages per se. 14:58:33 SurlyFrog: No, need to write package prefixes depends on the configuration of the "current" package, i.e. the package that is the value of CL:*PACKAGE*. 14:58:34 SurlyFrog: use defpackage to create a package with :use clauses to import symbols, if you really want to do that. i'm not doing that anymore, but that is just my personal preference. 14:59:06 SurlyFrog: neither require nor load operate on packages, if that is what you thought. 14:59:57 but the code that is being loaded can 15:00:04 Yeah.hang on. I think I crossed two bits of information. To get "local" access to another package's symbols, you use (defpackage  (:import-from )) right? 15:00:19 SurlyFrog: right. or :use. 15:00:46 For some reason, (I think in "Succesful Common Lisp), I thought I read that (require) also did that. 15:00:50 Those are two ways to be able to write unqualified symbols, but they are quite different mechanisms. 15:01:16 this is not a lisp question per se, but can anyone recommend a good aggregator site for (lispy) programming blogs? 15:01:21 I'm looking for something like hacker news, but without the endless non-programming fluff on office politics / patent lawsuits / equity / advertising / outsourcing / elevator pitches / working hours / motivational quotes 15:01:25 I miss a good site about -programming-, like hn was before 15:01:31 epsil: planet.lisp.org 15:02:19 Well, planet lisp is going to shift focus to entrepreneur news soon, though. "12 ways to use lisp to improve your deck" and things like that. 15:02:31 Ok, that is a lie. 15:03:00 I think I'm okay. Personally, I'm not really looking to use unqualified symbols. I prefer to be as explicit as possible. What I was missing was the fact that simply declaring that your package uses another package does not "load" the code from that package (or its modules) into the current environment. 15:03:57 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:03:57 Is a module basically equal to a source code file? Like in Python? 15:04:29 no. 15:04:31 SurlyFrog: common lisp does not have "modules" 15:04:39 -!- mikecsh [~mikecsh@203.145.92.115] has quit [Quit: mikecsh] 15:04:43 the concept of "module" is fuzzy, but may be approximated by "something which require loads" :) 15:04:46 SurlyFrog: "module" isn't really a term in CL  there are systems and packages, neither of which map to files. 15:05:01 sellout-: "systems" are not part of cl either. 15:05:07 -!- alex` [~alex@host62-92-static.38-88-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:05:17 H4ns: Right, but they're a common thing in CL usage. 15:05:19 it'd be pretty funny if everything in the KEYWORD package were in one file. 15:05:28 -!- Shaftoe [~Moe111@modemcable037.54-22-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: Shaftoe] 15:05:29 sellout-: require and provide mention "module-name" 15:05:36 jdz: Touche. 15:05:40 sellout-: and there is *modules* 15:05:40 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 15:05:50 hmmm.but people talk about loading modules. Is a module a namespace? Or what? 15:05:54 :) 15:05:59 H4ns: thanks, will check that one out 15:06:17 Surly - they mean 'package'. http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/Body/chap-11.html 15:06:41 ayrnieu: who means packages? 15:06:44 Shaftoe [~Moe111@modemcable037.54-22-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 15:06:54 -!- Shaftoe [~Moe111@modemcable037.54-22-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 15:07:08 SurlyFrog: Where do people talk about loading modules? Seeing the context might help. 15:07:20 sellout: from Franz documentation: 15:07:21 The new regexp2 module has roughly the same API as the older regexp module (which came with the original Allegro CL 6.2 release), except the functions have slightly different names, to avoid name conflicts. The functions are named by symbols in the excl package, 15:07:25 ayrnieu: what we're trying to establish here is that packages _are not_ modules 15:08:03 So, the functions are named in the excl packageand I access them via (excl:re-foo) but I need to (require :regexp2) for that to work??? 15:08:04 SurlyFrog: Ah, ok  they probably do mean actual modules that you require/provide. They're not something most of us use at all. 15:08:38 SurlyFrog: symbols are not "named" in packages. they reside there. 15:08:52 SurlyFrog: every (interned) symbol has a home package 15:09:16 jdz: Franz's term, not mine ("The functions are named by symbols in the excl package") 15:09:40 SurlyFrog: it's different from what you said before, really. 15:10:07 SurlyFrog: i'm not trying to nitpick, just help you understand the symbols 15:10:10 It is?? Sorry, I don't mean it to be. As you can see, I'm confused. 15:10:13 in any case, the answer to your qeustion is still 'no', and what you want to learn about is still 'packages', as via that URL. 15:10:22 SurlyFrog: symbols are first class objects in common lisp 15:10:38 Okay, I'll read chapter 11 of the HyperSpec. 15:11:00 SurlyFrog: l1sp.org/cl/symbol 15:11:10 and re-read chapter 31 of Succesfull Common Lisp and chapter 21 of Practical Common Lisp.... 15:11:41 silenius [~silenius@i59F7467F.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:12:19 dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 15:12:47 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:12:49 wow, i did not know symbols may be interned many packages... 15:13:31 probably just a funky wording 15:14:08 but l1sp.org/cl/glossary/apparently_uninterned concept is new to me, anyway 15:14:42 -!- kilon [~thekilon@178.59.17.196] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:14:49 *Xach* does wish to make something better than L. Ron's terrible packages guide 15:15:43 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.50.1] has joined #lisp 15:15:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.50.1] has quit [Changing host] 15:15:43 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:16:12 ah, this is what I was trying to remember: http://www.flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf 15:16:27 That's the terrible one, yes. 15:16:27 There is "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Common Lisp Packages" 15:16:33 Terrible, I say! 15:17:29 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-039.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:17:39 I've never been fond of the "X for Dummies" meme. 15:17:52 ISF__ [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has joined #lisp 15:18:50 I don't like that guide for a few reasons: It makes erroneous assumptions about make-package/defpackage :use defaults, it includes obsolete language from CLTL1, and it has an overall tone of "Here, look at how terrible the package system is" 15:18:58 Okay, so now I'm going to be douchy and say; "What the heck do you mean Common Lisp doesn't have modules." When there is a *modules* variable in the HyperSpec (http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/v_module.htm#STmodulesST) And there is a (provide) function (http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_provid.htm#provide) which says that it "adds the module-name" to *modules*. 15:19:18 SurlyFrog: that's where "vague semantics" comes in. 15:19:36 Xach: yeah, I'm getting that now :-D 15:20:27 The glossary doesn't define "module", which is another flag (red or orange, i'm not sure) 15:21:02 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 15:21:21 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 15:21:58 SurlyFrog: Modules are not packages and note that PROVIDE and REQUIRE are deprecated. Except that you can still reliably use them on several implementations, notably SBCL. Just keep in mind, if you use modules, things are going to get complicated when the new CL spec comes out. (Removes tongue from cheek) 15:22:45 So, in order to use the concept of a module foo and do (require :foo), someone, somewhere, had to have placed a (provide :foo) in code which winds up loading any and all other necessary code to implement the functionality of the foo module. The symbols (functions, etc.) that implement said functionality may live in any number of different packages (read, "namespaces.") 15:22:58 -!- incandenza [u726@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kqfflydudisyjvrr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:22:59 -!- whoops [~u549@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ydowspiqsovzicpt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:23:17 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:18 thus, packages are *not* modules 15:23:45 SurlyFrog: they are not, and modules are rarely used nowadays. 15:23:52 got it. 15:23:54 thanks all 15:25:22 SurlyFrog: On SBCL, require actually ends up using ASDF to load a package with that name. So, you're better off just using ASDF or Quicklisp to be clear about what you're doing. 15:26:27 It's more that SBCL (and others) allow the vague behavior of REQUIRE to be extended and customized, and ASDF traditionally takes advantage of that on SBCL (and others) 15:29:13 osa1 [~sinan@141.196.46.17] has joined #lisp 15:29:13 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-193-56.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:29:18 It's funny. Working through all of this Lisp stuff, it's seemed pretty obvious to me where Python got a lot of it's goodness from. I've also been more or less of the mind that, once you understand the Lisp end of things, the Python version doesn't really get you anything better. However, I do have to say that they way Python handles packages, modules, and getting at the symbols defined therein is quite clean. I'm guessing that maybe 15:30:08 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-039.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:30:28 -!- simplucid [~user@116.36.195.17] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:30:46 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA09B2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:30:55 SurlyFrog: cut off at "I'm guessing that maybe" 15:31:07 I'm guessing that maybe they learned a thing or two and decided to remove all of the "vagueness" from the situation in lieu of ugly and empty http://__init__.py/ files everywhere 15:31:14 :-) 15:31:19 simplucid [~user@116.36.195.17] has joined #lisp 15:32:13 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.206.219] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 15:32:39 Surly: Personally, I find python's lack of namespaces to be annoying. 15:32:53 Surly: But then, so is CL's lack of modules. 15:33:08 Noctifer [~Noctifer@82.113.121.146] has joined #lisp 15:33:29 Zhivago: :-) 15:33:48 Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.206.219] has joined #lisp 15:34:58 lbc [~quassel@h198.natout.aau.dk] has joined #lisp 15:35:16 Of the two, the lack of modules is easier to deal with. 15:35:47 I find that python encourages poor name choices to avoid collisions. 15:35:52 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.206.219] has quit [Client Quit] 15:37:35 Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.206.219] has joined #lisp 15:39:03 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@ceesit01.nees.rpi.edu] has quit [Quit: Some days you're the pigeon, some days the statue...] 15:39:04 gkeith_glaptop_ [gkeith@nat/google/x-odwqyvcyuhaqwcej] has joined #lisp 15:39:20 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@ceesit01.nees.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 15:39:47 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-153-90.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:41:36 whoops [u549@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yhzzgzhumtxvslek] has joined #lisp 15:41:41 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@ceesit01.nees.rpi.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 15:41:56 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@ceesit01.nees.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 15:42:17 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 9.0/20111206234556]] 15:46:47 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:47:06 -!- pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:48:39 pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has joined #lisp 15:51:42 steevy [~steevy@91-67-42-157-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 15:51:43 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@ceesit01.nees.rpi.edu] has quit [Quit: Some days you're the pigeon, some days the statue...] 15:52:05 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@ceesit01.nees.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 15:52:38 Quadresce [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 15:54:55 Zhivago: lack of namespaces? python loves namespaces. lisp seems to be pretty good at them too, afaik. packages are good too, if a little more complex to understand than the python "idea" of packages. 15:55:01 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:55:20 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA09B2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:55:28 -!- Quadresce is now known as Qworkescence 15:56:32 python's packages have that perlish root of using the FS hierarchy. 15:56:50 which consequently is easy to understand if not perfect. very jersey. 15:58:27 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:58:49 j_king: So, what happens when I have a module named foo and a class named foo? 15:59:02 j_king: Are those in different namespaces? 16:00:09 python doesn't have packages in the CL sense. 16:00:10 you mean if you first "import foo" then "from foo import foo"? I think that will cause an import exception. 16:00:21 it doesn't they're different. 16:00:43 So, the module foo and the class foo are in the same namespace? 16:00:45 -!- simplucid [~user@116.36.195.17] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:01:00 (if they weren't, how could the names collide?) 16:01:15 i see where you're going. 16:02:21 yeah, modules have global namespaces in python 16:02:44 Everything does, except for local variables, and local variables collide with globals. 16:02:50 that's what 'as' is for...import foo as foomonkey 16:02:51 in a module 16:03:10 Which brings us back to my point that python only has one namespace. 16:03:29 CL on the other hand has a fixed set of modules. 16:04:20 Variables and functions, for example, share names, but access different modules -- which is why you can't export a function or a variable -- you export the name, and that name can be used to access a value or function module. 16:04:38 But it does have multiple namespaces. 16:06:50 simplucid [~user@116.36.195.17] has joined #lisp 16:06:55 Zhivago: can i CL:REQUIRE the "value" and "function" modules you mention? 16:08:36 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA09B2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:08:43 jdz: No. These are modules in the python sense. 16:08:56 -!- simplucid [~user@116.36.195.17] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:11:05 Zhivago: well, python has one namespace in a module. 16:11:34 each module has its own global namespace which is why the 16:11:45 "from foo import *" is frowned upon. 16:11:46 simplucid [~user@116.36.195.17] has joined #lisp 16:11:56 but yeah, see where you're going and i'll be quiet now. ;) 16:12:17 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@host109-145-12-127.range109-145.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:12:19 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.140.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:14:42 YuleAthas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 16:15:21 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.104.83] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:18:30 -!- simplucid [~user@116.36.195.17] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:18:30 pnq [~nick@ACA2E914.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 16:21:12 so, turns out bringing my laptop to the laundromat is a good thing (: 16:21:17 *antifuchs* sends manifest pull request 16:22:36 does it make your code more clean? 16:23:01 it lets me work on stuff while I have to wait on things 16:24:20 antifuchs: ~@[...~], surely? 16:25:45 eataix [eataix@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-vgnwkfxlxqfwlnbf] has joined #lisp 16:26:03 -!- eataix [eataix@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-vgnwkfxlxqfwlnbf] has left #lisp 16:26:32 eataix [eataix@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-vgnwkfxlxqfwlnbf] has joined #lisp 16:27:38 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:28:44 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.206.219] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 16:29:29 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Byebye.] 16:30:17 -!- eataix [eataix@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-vgnwkfxlxqfwlnbf] has quit [Client Quit] 16:30:27 Indecipherable [~IceChat77@41.12.18.224] has joined #lisp 16:30:36 Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.206.219] has joined #lisp 16:31:05 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.206.219] has quit [Client Quit] 16:31:49 Will Lisp become quite useless if other languages finish off savaging it and incorporate all of its features? 16:31:56 Indecipherable: yes. 16:31:58 Cosman246 [~cosman246@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:17 of course, at that point "other languages" will be Lisp 16:32:23 so it's sort of circular 16:33:01 Hmm. I usually write primary slot-unbound methods, but today I kind of want to be able to punt if I can't initialize. Should I write an :around and use (call-next-method) on init failure? 16:33:02 I don't see other languages incorporating lisp features as "savaging it". That's really more of a validation. 16:33:32 *Xach* would have been happy last week if Python had stolen the CLOS class & instance update protocol 16:34:05 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.92] has joined #lisp 16:34:55 -!- bieber [~quassel@162-78.97-97.tampabay.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:35:09 bieber [~quassel@162-78.97-97.tampabay.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:35:51 On the other hand, Lisp may be the best language to home all those features together 16:36:12 Indecipherable: you are preaching to the choir. 16:38:15 incandenza [u726@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dvalhnffhplpjpaz] has joined #lisp 16:38:27 -!- gkeith_glaptop_ [gkeith@nat/google/x-odwqyvcyuhaqwcej] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:39:50 -!- lbc [~quassel@h198.natout.aau.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:41:52 zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:50 -!- udzinari [90a0e235@gateway/web/freenode/ip.144.160.226.53] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:43:28 Xach: i would be happy if it had. 16:44:49 Xach: made me giggle when I saw https://github.com/amoffat/Inspect-Shell 16:45:00 -!- parabolize [~gyro@c-75-71-247-61.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:45:27 -!- pon1980 [~pon@195-67-88-105.customer.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:46:21 parabolize [~gyro@c-75-71-247-61.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:36 blub programmers think CL is from the stone age yet they use such crude tools. 16:48:02 j_king: You could argue that math is from the stone age as well. 16:48:32 lbc [~quassel@h198.natout.aau.dk] has joined #lisp 16:48:47 ThomasH: I'm reading an interesting history of math... pretty close to stone age. 16:50:21 i should say, I have read. http://www.amazon.com/Mathematics-Nonmathematician-Dover-explaining-science/dp/0486248232 16:50:44 -!- e-user [e-user@nat/nokia/x-ehzitrqltztruzwn] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:51:03 ThomasH: sounds plausible. 16:51:12 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-187788.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:51:23 eataix [eataix@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-iwzuhypiqryoffhe] has joined #lisp 16:52:46 j_king: Yeah. Lisp may be old, but ANSI CL is really not that old. The basis of lisp if fundamental enough that it ages well. 16:52:59 *is fundamental* 16:52:59 *j_king* nods. 16:53:39 Quadrescence: nice blog bost -- though aiming "for semantic elegance or novelty, not syntactic." isn't likely to win "Joe language designer" any brownie points on Reddit/programming or stackoverflow... too bad. 16:53:47 CrazyThinker` [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 16:54:46 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:54:53 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 16:55:36 FTR http://symbo1ics.com/blog/?p=1229 16:58:07 -!- anaumov [~anaumov@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:58:36 -!- djanatyn [~djanatyn@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:59:47 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-4233C217.sub-174-254-177.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout] 17:00:57 anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has joined #lisp 17:01:05 -!- akovalenko [~akovalenk@95.73.217.209] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:02:58 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2E914.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:03:14 pjb: herep? 17:04:35 -!- ISF__ [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:06:44 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:09:07 -!- CrazyThinker` [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:09:26 ISF__ [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has joined #lisp 17:09:55 pnq [~nick@ACA2E914.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 17:11:13 djanatyn [~djanatyn@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #lisp 17:14:36 -!- anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:15:23 -!- jbalint [~jbalint@173-203-201-241.static.cloud-ips.com] has quit [Changing host] 17:15:23 jbalint [~jbalint@unaffiliated/jbalint] has joined #lisp 17:15:30 -!- ISF__ [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:16:19 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-4233C217.sub-174-254-177.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout] 17:16:23 -!- beslyrus [~Brucio-12@adsl-99-49-14-228.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Client Quit] 17:19:35 -!- Indecipherable [~IceChat77@41.12.18.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:20:12 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:20:42 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@122.170.16.200] has joined #lisp 17:20:42 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@122.170.16.200] has quit [Changing host] 17:20:42 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 17:21:34 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl21-74-224.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 17:21:39 -!- meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:22:07 -!- Noctifer [~Noctifer@82.113.121.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:22:46 -!- SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has left #lisp 17:23:01 CrazyThinker` [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 17:23:38 akovalenko [~akovalenk@95.72.96.181] has joined #lisp 17:24:26 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 17:24:42 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.228] has joined #lisp 17:26:03 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:26:13 -!- Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:26:43 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-lftnjvvgdfbhaxeb] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:27:16 mon_key`, Oh of course. History has painted this picture well enough already: language X dominates the mainstream while e.g. lisp doesn't 17:28:03 jewel [~jewel@196.215.168.225] has joined #lisp 17:30:07 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:30:23 -!- __main__ [~main@adsl-99-173-15-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:31:13 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:33:28 -!- bfein [~bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:37:07 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.26.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:40:33 __main__ [~main@adsl-99-173-15-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:14 -!- osa1 [~sinan@141.196.46.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:45:22 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:45:51 meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 17:46:18 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:47:28 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 17:48:06 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.56.7] has quit [Disconnected by services] 17:48:50 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:50:59 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-155-193-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:53 mason [~user@wsip-98-189-9-189.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:26 tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.169.114] has joined #lisp 17:56:29 tbatchelli- [~user@69.59.136.174] has joined #lisp 17:59:36 how do i tell quicklisp to put its files elsewhere 18:00:40 the quicklisp dir? you can move it anywhere 18:00:43 tensorpudding: You can move the quicklisp directory anywhere you like. 18:00:50 and it'll still work? 18:00:53 Sure. 18:00:56 it bases itself off any place that you load setup.lisp from 18:00:59 Everything is done relative to wherever setup.lisp is loaded. 18:01:02 oh 18:01:10 right, i have to add that config don't i 18:01:24 note that compiled files will still go to ~/.caches/common-lisp (: 18:01:29 (that's asdf's thing) 18:01:43 i don't mind 18:01:43 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:01:53 things in .foo can be disorganized 18:01:56 cool 18:02:15 but i don't like random directories in my home folder appearing in my filemanager 18:02:25 yeah, same here (: 18:02:28 it's .quicklisp for me (: 18:04:57 -!- tjasko__ [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:05:28 anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has joined #lisp 18:06:03 -!- mason [~user@wsip-98-189-9-189.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:06:04 Xach: I started hacking on putting some QL magic in Manifest for browsing releases but with nothing useful to say about a release other than it's name, it's not all that useful. 18:06:14 Though it does let you click on a name to quickload it. 18:06:30 manifest:clickload 18:06:45 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 18:08:36 BTW, why are "releases" called that? Seems like "project" or "library" would be more apt. 18:08:50 Or am I misunderstanding what a release is supposed to be? 18:09:29 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2E914.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:09:59 The idea behind that name is that a project is something that changes over time, and a release is that project at a specific point in time. 18:10:09 -!- sacho [~sacho@90.154.207.232] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:10:37 sacho [~sacho@90.154.207.232] has joined #lisp 18:10:44 -!- zakwilson [~quassel@chat.qniformchat.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:10:44 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA09B2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 18:10:51 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.164.107] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:10:56 Qworkescence: Understood. my point was simply that where historically many consider Lisp to have "lost out" to "worse is better" I would suggest that (assuming it is still loosing) current lossage has more to do with social-media oriented bandwagoneering than the kinds of design considerations outlined by RPG. 18:11:27 gigamonkey: I find the name a bit confusing, but I'm not sure what else might be good. 18:11:40 gigamonkey: hope you got my pull request! 18:11:45 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-037.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:11:55 antifuchs: did you get my remarks on it? 18:12:02 gigamonkey: I hope there's a better way to construct that CSS class than the (:format ) directive 18:12:23 hmmm, argh. NOW I see that you have a (:progn ) directive too 18:12:53 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 18:14:00 *gigamonkey* doesn't go anywhere without a PROGN 18:14:54 gigamonkey: I hope you get my wishlist request w/r/t documenting internal symbols as well :-) 18:15:24 mon_key`: I did. I'm thinking about it. I think I might go for a different URL. 18:15:25 anyway - either seems ok. the :format one is a bit more concise 18:17:00 antifuchs: merged. 18:17:08 yay \o/ 18:17:44 slime-manifest contrib would be really very neat 18:18:00 "open documentation for symbol at point" 18:18:43 in fact, extending manifest into a web-based docs-centric inspector is something I'm interested in (: 18:19:32 but but 18:19:37 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.5] has joined #lisp 18:19:44 did you fix that format gaffe before merging? 18:19:54 it is like unto a pea under my 9 mattresses 18:20:19 ahahah 18:20:21 no 18:20:35 -!- ehu [~erik@62.140.137.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:20:49 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA09B2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:21:20 gigamonkey: Assuming the document internals were defaulted as "always on" a differnt URL for internals would be nice. Ideally one would have the ability to include internals on a packages "main page" _while_ a project was in active development, i.e. before a decision on what symbols are exported is finalized. 18:21:22 isn't that a browser bug? the css is just using column-count 18:22:21 hY, why does the following evals to (NIL T) instead of (T T) ? 18:22:27 http://paste.lisp.org/display/126449 18:23:13 bege: your macro gets as its first argument a list of two symbols, FUNCTION and IDENTITY. 18:23:24 anvandare [~anvandare@78-21-50-152.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 18:24:37 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.190.39.231] has joined #lisp 18:24:54 Xach: I see now, thanks 18:25:29 Xach: What's wrong with the format? 18:26:15 gigamonkey: reminds me of (if x 42 nil) instead of (when x 42) a bit 18:26:27 "~@[foo~]" seems more direct to me 18:26:54 Ah. I'm more worried about having a class="" in the HTML. But was too lazy to do anything about it yet. 18:27:23 (Hmmmm, maybe monkeylib-html should handle a NIL value of an attribute by not including it.) 18:28:43 Xach: huh, hadn't thought of that either 18:28:56 class="" doesn't break the html (: 18:30:09 antifuchs: no. It's just untidy. 18:30:13 Xach: any chance you might eventually consider a mechanism for making use of a controlled set keywords that system authors could tag their projects with, e.g. something not unlike (info "(emacs)Library Keywords")? 18:31:04 gigamonkey: if that's a concern, you shouldn't use html generators (-: 18:31:59 mon_key`: I'd like something like that. 18:32:01 gigamonkey: Did you see my pull-request ? if so do you have any comments or suggestions ? 18:32:41 Xach: A system level take set could make browsing manifest pages more intuitive w/r/t comparing related functionality. 18:33:09 -!- lbc [~quassel@h198.natout.aau.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:33:46 In my perfect universe docstring authors could tag individual functions with keywords... allowing manifest to present a "tag cloud" of related functionality... alas a guy can dream :) 18:33:47 daimrod: I did. I'm leary of using wildcards in calls to DIRECTORY but I'll put in the functionality. 18:34:07 lbc [~quassel@h198.natout.aau.dk] has joined #lisp 18:34:28 -!- sacho [~sacho@90.154.207.232] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:34:38 Xach, mon_key: it does seem that we may be getting to the point where the next great frontier for Quicklisp is discoverability. 18:34:53 -!- lbc [~quassel@h198.natout.aau.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:34:56 sacho [~sacho@90.154.207.232] has joined #lisp 18:35:01 gigamonkey: Why might README.* be unsafe? 18:35:14 mon_key`: not unsafe, just not as portable as you might hope. 18:35:25 -!- coyo [~unf@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:35:25 The more information Quicklisp could make available about projects (a.k.a. releases) without having to install them the better. 18:35:40 coyo [kvirc@pool-71-164-238-90.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:40 -!- coyo [kvirc@pool-71-164-238-90.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:35:40 coyo [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 18:35:46 If QL could make it programatically available then things like Manifest could make it actually available pretty easily. 18:36:04 I'd like to gather and share that kind of info. 18:37:02 Do you yet have a way to pull :descriptions out of .ASD files when you build a dist? 18:37:27 If you just created a descriptions.txt file to go along with releases.txt and systems.txt then we could get rolling on that. 18:37:45 Xach: What about a file of structured data my-project-foo/QL-AUX-METADATA ? That solution could be ASDF independent. 18:37:46 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:37:51 And if Manifest shows an ugly "NO DESCRIPTION!" next to some projects, that might help motivate people to provide them. 18:37:59 -!- silenius [~silenius@i59F7467F.versanet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:40:00 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 18:40:02 gigamonkey: well, the spec says that directory accepts wild-pathname. 18:40:41 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:40:51 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 18:40:53 daimrod: yes, but does not say how those wildcards are interpreted. 18:41:06 vervic [~vervic@vie-91-186-150-217.dsl.sil.at] has joined #lisp 18:41:16 daimrod: #P"README.*" might match "README" or it might not. 18:41:21 H4ns: exactly. 18:41:58 oh, I didn't know that. 18:42:34 gigamonkey: Personally I like your approach to mildly shaming authors of undocumented and exposed features. Not sure how well it will go over for those not inclined to documenting, i.e. it might backfire if those types of authors just provide stub docstrings... 18:42:35 christop` [~user@oteiza.siccegge.de] has joined #lisp 18:43:40 -!- christoph_debian [~user@DSL01.212.114.250.149.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:43:51 mon_key`: you can always not use libraries that you don't like, e.g. because they're not properly documented. 18:44:26 Well, a stub docstring is just a customized "NO DOCS!" 18:44:50 so what's the best solution ? Listing every files and parsing them ? 18:44:51 H4ns: Of course. This said, I imagine that someone will provide a public manifest server documenting all the systems in a QL release. 18:45:54 daimrod: (remove-duplicates (append (directory #P"README") (directory #P"README.*")) :test #'equal) :D 18:46:03 daimrod: that's what I do in the pathnames code in PCL (now also available as cl-fad). There's a LIST-DIRECTORY and then you can use normal Lisp functions to pull out the ones you want. 18:46:44 Xach: http://manifest.quicklisp.org/ ? (Some day) 18:47:25 H4ns: such a server would provide a "public shaming" service for mostly undocumented systems and might prompt some authors to replace their empty docstrings with "Does some stuff then returns a value." Which wouldn't be very valuable at all. 18:47:37 is preprocessing docstrings purely theoretical at this point or planned for the near future? 18:47:54 -!- christop` [~user@oteiza.siccegge.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:48:57 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:48:58 oGMo: it's pretty theoreticaly. The first level of processing I am likely to do is simply to split a docstring into a first sentence (ending with the first #\. followed by a space) and everything else and only showing the first sentence in the main view with a click to expand to see the rest, possibly wrapped in a 
18:49:31  gigamonkey: so no methods a la asdf
18:49:39 xan_ [~xan@243.Red-88-1-40.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp
18:49:40  Eh?
18:49:42   oGMo: why? maybe your interested in removing the TEX markup from the CXML docstrings? :-P
18:49:57  mon_key`: i'm more interested in markdown or similar
18:50:24  But I'm actually more interested in providing a Manifest-specific way to provide more structured docs (e.g. short string and long string) and only fall back to docstrings as a last resort.
18:50:38  (Mostly because I don't like to have giant docstrings in my code.)
18:50:56  gigamonkey: e.g., (defmethod manifest:preprocess ((package (eql :my-package)) symbol string ...) ...
18:51:13  spit out html
18:51:37  gigamonkey: ahh
18:52:00  gigamonkey: another benefit along those lines is i18n
18:52:45  gigamonkey: how do you envision short/long interface working?
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18:54:10  though theoretically with the method you could do whatever you wanted in the package
18:54:23  pull from external docs
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19:07:29  gigamonkey: I'd like to gather and share everything that helps someone find a library for a particular purpose and get an idea of its quality and utility in advance.
19:08:15  To me, that means short summaries, longer descriptions, API info, author-provided documentation, third-party user ratings & reviews, and the like.
19:08:26  Categorization
19:08:49 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
19:10:09  Xach: like http://www.cpan.org/ ?
19:10:44  or search.cpan.org
19:11:45  Possibly.
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19:12:55  Xach: Some of that is covered by Github. I've been trying to catch up on some open projects the past week and in the process have been experimenting with the Github wiki that is part of each project. Also playing with the README.
19:14:02  Xach: So, I've tried to put a decent description in the README that would allow a person to use the library quickly, then provide the comprehensive documentation in the project wiki.
19:14:10  gigamonkey: I've modified readme-text to use cl-fad.
19:14:33  Xach: the third-party stuff is likely by-far the most complicated. Do you have an impression of where that information might be w/r/t to utility for Quicklisp end-users?
19:15:17  mon_key`: I don't understand the question, sorry.
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19:15:29  Xach: as compared to the other stuff which (I assume) system authors would provide.
19:15:38 -!- nikodemus_ [~nikodemus@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe5bdf00-15.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
19:15:53  It's in your fingers, or perhaps brain.
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19:17:25  IOW As a system author I can provide some metadata information for QL to expose in the form of a text-file. Whereas in order to harvest user-reviews/ratings it is likely that QL would need to provide that service.
19:17:38  Yes, that is what I had in mind.
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19:19:34  I guess there are two questions I'd like to help answer quickly: 1. Is there a library that does what I need?  2. Is it any good?
19:19:37  Xach: So, I am curious if you have any impressions as to which would be more useful for end users - Author supplied metadata vs. end-user supplied stuff.
19:19:50  Xach: you might pull the latest Manifest and point your browser at http://localhost:/quicklisp
19:20:12  I'd really like to have the right column in that table showing a short description of the release.
19:20:33 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
19:20:43  Obviously, beyond that there are many other things that I could usefully show.
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19:21:12  Hmmm. We already have (if not digested) stats about what projects depend on what other ones.
19:21:44  Or, rather, what systems depend on what other ones.
19:21:53  I should show that. Maybe even sort by it.
19:21:55  gigamonkey: use html5 canvas to draw pretty clickable pictures!
19:22:21  i think languages should force programmer to provide all the above info each time he starts a new module or refuse to compile
19:22:29 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
19:22:32  too much freedom is bad
19:22:35  gigamonkey: please no.
19:23:27  how hard it is to type a few lines of text ?
19:23:52  mon_key`: why?
19:23:59  kilon: It was hard to write, it should be hard to read. Keeps out the riff-raff.
19:24:11  kilon: i often write programs for myself.  i won't ever use a language that forces me to write documentation.
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19:25:34  gigamonkey: Emacs/emacs-lisp interaction with a manifest server -- keep the data as vanilla possible please.
19:26:05  mon_key`: what's non-vanilla about what systems depend on others.
19:26:57  gigamonkey: putting pretty html5 clickable pictures instead of plain old vanilla hrefs.
19:27:11  Oh, I don't know what Xach meant by that anyway.
19:27:49  better to use css graphics for that, anyway (:
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19:33:00  i'm not partial to using languages that force anything.
19:33:01  gigamonkey: NP. regardless it is worth considering that full blown web-browsers running on a desktop/laptop CPU might not be the only clients accessing a manifest server (think w3m) and "over snazzification" of the HTML may render those tools less useable.
19:33:18  though most do to some degree,
19:33:53  but freedom > bondage.
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19:38:40  mon_key`: yeah, I'm with you. At some point I'll probably actually move the server from just serving up json and do all the HTML snazification in Javascript or something.
19:38:47  That's what the cool kids do these days, I hear.
19:41:35 luckyxus [~dolovor@46.197.40.12] has joined #lisp
19:42:38  <- is not a cool kid and wouldn't know.
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19:43:29  Xach: does ql-dist:find-system cause it to be downloaded?
19:43:38  Surely not, right?
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19:45:05  gigamonkey: I don't think so
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19:46:07  gigamonkey: Though a "system" in ql-dist is not an ASDF system, directly.
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19:50:03  Yeah. I'm just trying to gather data about how many incoming and outgoing dependencies each release has. (I go from release to provided-systems and from there to required-systems. That data is available some more direct way is it?)
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19:50:27  gigamonkey: no, that sounds about right.
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19:50:38  gigamonkey: (gethash  (ql-dist::system-index (car (ql-dist:enabled-dists))))
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19:51:20  mon_key`: Why?
19:52:08  If you find yourself using :: functions, please let me know. Maybe there's a better way, or maybe I should be exporting more stuff.
19:52:56  Xach: No reason other than that is what i was using when i wrote my slime QL system explorer last summer.
19:53:00 snearch [~snearch@e178120156.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp
19:54:03  find-system or find-system-in-dist would be preferable.
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19:56:45  Xach: Prob. IIRC i wanted access to the system-index hash because I could inspect it with slime.
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20:07:10  FTR that work is here http://paste.lisp.org/+2LIE I never bothered to publish it in any meaningful way b/c in the absence of an ability to maintain an out of tree custom slime contrib the code was difficult to keep cleanly incorporated with various slime setups across multiple machines.
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20:58:14  can someone tell me the differences between common lisp and scheme (in short). Which is more suitable for a lisp starter?
20:58:30  common lisp is better
20:58:48  case closed
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20:59:31  htop: use teh google.
20:59:37  htop: this is a common lisp channel.
20:59:38  htop: common lisp is the language preferred in #lisp, and scheme is the language preferred in #scheme. that is a very important difference on irc.
20:59:49  htop: in seriousness though, I don't think you should view it as what is best for a 'lisp starter'
20:59:59  ...but rather which do you want to use
21:00:09  scheme is not lisp.  case closed agan.
21:00:10  OK. Should I ask the same question on #scheme :)
21:00:10  again
21:00:16 SegFault1X|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp
21:00:25  fruits and veggies are best for a lisp starter
21:00:29  htop: you will just get the inverse, I image
21:00:32  imagine*
21:00:34  Is my understanding of haskell correct: http://paste.lisp.org/+2PKL
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21:00:54  ztygg: #haskell >>>
21:00:56  ztygg: #haskell
21:01:18  ztygg-- #haskell
21:01:24  actually it's lisp
21:02:06  ztygg: you don't need COND here. And you probably want to test with NULL to check for the empty list. NOT is for (generalized) boolean values.
21:03:02  And (destructuring-bind (x . xs) xs ...) is a bit closer to a pattern.
21:03:19 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-034.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
21:03:44  (remove x r :test #'<)
21:04:51  in a any case, that's a rather inefficient way to sort
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21:15:52  Thanks! I've pasted your changes. My code looks really klunky compared to :)
21:17:02  Some people might find it clearer to go for (and xs (destructuring-bind ...)).
21:17:56  or shorter, (if xs ...)
21:18:39  and in lisp you can have all letters of the alphabet in variable names
21:18:57  xs -> list, x -> head, r -> tail
21:21:02  ztygg also see cl-match if you want pattern matching in CL
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21:22:06  i never saw cl-match before is that new ?
21:22:16  no
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21:22:17  no
21:22:21  you're new
21:22:22  oh
21:22:30  lol
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21:23:40  there's probably hundreds of pattern matching libraries in scheme and lisp floating around.
21:24:10  any other worth checking out besides cl-match ?
21:24:28  that you know of
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21:25:50  I like to use my own, at , but I've also just abused destructuring-bind and error handling, or quickly written a one-off macro.
21:26:03  typecase also comes in handy.
21:26:50 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@cpe-74-64-109-53.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit []
21:26:51  hello. i am running a lisp process with a swank server remotely. and when condition is thrown i want to connect to that server with emacs/slime and debug it. possible?
21:27:39 gabnet [~gabnet@77.193.63.130] has joined #lisp
21:27:42  i am connecting to remote process succesfuly but i'm not entering debugger in slime
21:27:59  peaces: you're connecting with slime-connect?
21:28:06  yes
21:28:45  if it wasn't clear, condition was thrown before i connected
21:28:49  peaces: are you running hunchentoot, by chance?
21:28:51  peaces: but that connection isn't running in the thread with the actual condition?
21:29:29  H4ns I will be, but I'm just testing now and mistyped function intentionally to test this out
21:29:53  peaces: where are you typing the stuff that generates errors?
21:30:02 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp
21:30:16  in the remote repl
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21:30:49  I'm entering debugger in repl, but when I connect to it with slime I don't end up in debugger
21:31:13  that's how it's going to work
21:31:52  then how can i debug it remotely?
21:32:19  don't disconnect slime
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21:33:52  i think i see different behavior - when i connect to a running swank, i get sent to the slime debugger whenever an uncaught error is signalled.  at least i think that is how it worked last time i tried.
21:33:53  having to be connected to hosted server 24/7 kind of defeats the purpose of having it in the first place. :)
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21:35:32  yeah.  i just tried that.  started the lisp, ran (swank:create-server), connected from emacs, typed junk in original repl, got sent to slime debugger.
21:35:50  H4ns: that's not what peaces is doing, though
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21:35:58  stassats`: aha?
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21:36:03  I'm not. I am connecting *after* the condition was thrown
21:36:18  peaces: ah.  no.  that won't work.
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21:36:34  peaces: you can leave things running under screen.
21:36:35 -!- Noctifer [~Noctifer@89.204.154.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
21:36:36  well you can just keep emacs in a screen/tmux session and debug through SSH, if that's what you want
21:36:42  peaces: if you want that, run your lisp in tmux or screen and leave an emacs running.
21:37:03 -!- snearch [~snearch@e178120156.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
21:37:45  or even run emacs in daemon mode and start an X client as needed.
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21:38:20  Handling errors in hunchentoot will be different anyway.
21:38:33  because of threads?
21:38:39  Cant you just keep the error-handler idling and waiting for slime to be connected and resignal the condition?
21:39:29  peaces: hunchentoot normally catches all errors, but you can stop it from doing that using hunchentoot:*catch-errors-p*
21:39:58  peaces: you don't usually want to do that, though, as you don't want to accumulate threads in the debugger.
21:40:25  But you probably don't want to run your production server in the latter mode. So the debugger will pop up while you're connected via slime.
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21:43:14  H4ns yes good point about threads accumulation
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22:30:53  is there documentation on the hyperspec stuff that slime has bundled in? it doesn't appear in the manual
22:34:04 chromaticwt [~user@67-41-15-81.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp
22:36:39  C-h k to get  help on C-c C-d h, C-c C-d ~ and C-c C-d #
22:37:21  that just brings up what's in the source
22:38:25  that's good, i just wondered if there were anything else
22:39:03  Well is there a specific question you have?
22:39:19  no
22:39:33  actually these three commands are all that i expected
22:40:15  there's also a contrib called slime-hyperdoc which will make C-c C-d h work on symbols from libraries that use and integrate with the hyperdoc library
22:40:48  i'll look at it
22:40:55  is that in the main distribution
22:40:59  i don't remember it's name
22:42:25  I can't remember in what state I left it
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22:46:09  i understand that there seem to be unofficial variants of slime out there
22:46:38 -!- thekilon [~kilon@athedsl-403353.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
22:48:33  I think there's only the unholy mess presented by setting up Clojure
22:51:30 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
22:52:40  can someone plz take a look at this: http://paste.lisp.org/+2PKO
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22:56:51  Farzad: enable-sql-reader-syntax has to be its own top-level form.  It won't work inside a defun like that.
22:57:36  pinterface, but even when its outside i still get this error :/
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22:59:07  oops, seems to work outside but it should be on the same file, thanks, i used to put it on another file
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23:00:26  pinterface, what about the locally* version? how's that different?
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23:01:44  hello. is it possible to hook up require to asdf in clisp like in sbcl?
23:04:04  mlkith: use quicklisp instead
23:04:43  instead of what?
23:05:39  Farzad: The locally versions have some slightly different effect, but I'm not familiar enough with clsql to explain it.  I'd probably just stick file-enable-sql-reader-syntax at the top of the files I wanted that and call it a day.
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23:09:00  mlkith: instead of require.
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23:16:05 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
23:16:30  you mean put ql:quickload  directly into the source?
23:19:07 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
23:20:21  you shouldn't be putting require in the source in the first place.
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23:26:30  mlkith: write a system file to manage library dependencies. don't put quickloads into source.
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23:27:27 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
23:27:36  I want to load systems and create executable with saveinitmem
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23:29:02 *Xach* scratches chin
23:29:07  mlkith: nothing wrong with that.  i usually put such stuff into a file called load.lisp.
23:30:03 *Xach* usually likes to make his executables exclude Quicklisp, and uses buildapp for that, but it's SBCL-only
23:30:06 *Xach* should port to CLISP
23:30:54 *Cosman246* is looking at cl-launch
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23:32:12  You know, I've been thinking about the Lispbox IDE, and I think it needs Quicklisp, Quickproject, USOCKETS, and trivial-shell (in decreasing order of need)
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23:47:42  Cosman246: you want lisp cabinet
23:47:55  Ah, I'll check that out
23:48:02  assuming windows
23:48:09  if nonwindows just set it up yourself, it's not hard
23:48:21  I don't need help in setting it up
23:48:30  I'm just trying to convert heathens
23:49:13  I use GNU/Linux
23:49:33  then lisp cabinet is probably your best bet
23:50:38  ....the heathen I am trying to convert is also a GNU/Linux user
23:51:37  though, looking at its website, I like how Lisp Cabinet also has support for Racket and Clojure
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23:55:30  It'd be good if Lisp Cabinet were ported
23:56:42 *Xach* loves sbcl --non-interactive very much
23:57:06  Xach: what does it do
23:57:14  is it for making binaries?
23:57:43  Guthur: no. it's for running something from the command line in a way that will inhibit both the debugger and the repl.
23:58:11  sort of like a binary then, hehe
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23:59:10  Hmm, I wonder how much effort it would take to port it....
23:59:27 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-093-079.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
23:59:44  Cosman246: if he is familiar with linux, he shouldn't have too much trouble