00:01:29 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:02:03 -!- kilon [~kilon@ppp-94-64-191-100.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:02:47 antifuchs [~foobar@guestnet.franz.com] has joined #lisp 00:03:12 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.82.67.79] has joined #lisp 00:03:16 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.111.6] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:11:32 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@2.104.23.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:12:49 pjb: the link to http://www.simonshepherd.supanet.com/tea.htm from your website @ http://informatimago.com/develop/lisp/index.html 404s 00:15:52 -!- acml [~user@92.45.153.241] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:20:47 -!- tbatchelli [~user@ppp-71-139-3-108.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:25:13 -!- albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:30:07 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 00:30:42 -!- srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:30:58 srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:32:03 Pterygota [~me@cpe-76-188-7-196.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:33:32 rtoyg: no 00:33:34 why? 00:34:49 Hexstream: Experienced? Maybe, but apparently it hasn't been a good one. :-) 00:35:28 ThomasH: When did you start with CL?... 00:36:28 Hexstream: I around 2003. But, I'm not a CS guy, I'm an engineer, so I don't always do things the best way. 00:36:34 *think* 00:36:42 Ugh, need to run and get dinner. 00:37:37 -!- gensym` [~user@dslc-082-082-099-088.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:37:39 mathrick [~mathrick@2.108.159.81] has joined #lisp 00:39:51 I hope you build bridges the best way, though! 00:39:54 or airplanes! 00:40:11 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:41:22 Are reader-macros allowed to signal errors if they get bad syntax? 00:41:30 gigamonkey: manifest::package-page might benefit from use of a :pre wrapper in the for the docs :td form. e.g. (:td :class "docs" (:pre (:print (or (docs-for sym what) "NO DOCS!")))))))))) 00:42:48 gigamonkey: What else could they do in case of bad syntax?... 00:42:59 gigamonkey: how else would they communicate problems? (: 00:44:30 gigamonkey: adding the :pre form means pre-formatted docstrings keep their formatting and aren't wrapped inside the table (: 00:44:52 antifuchs: dunno. Shutdown the Lisp ;-) 00:44:52 gigamonkey: the standard reader macros certainly seem to! 00:44:57 hah 00:45:10 you could return (values) and watch people scratch their heads 00:45:33 mon_key`: Wrapping doc strings in pre tags seems to the most requested feature. 00:45:59 antifuchs: A reader-macro can only return one form so (values) would be interpreted as NIL... no? 00:46:24 Hexstream: it's how #+ does it when the condition doesn't match 00:46:30 However I'm resisting it as the default as I don't want manifest showing giant ASCII art documentation--I want the main table to show (approximately) a once sentence synopsis with more detailed docs available at the click of a mouse, etc. 00:46:37 it means "there is no form here" 00:46:42 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@2.108.159.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:47:46 antifuchs: Cool, I didn't know that. (I never felt the need to actually implement a custom reader-macro...) 00:47:49 what is the fastest common lisp implementation? 00:47:53 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:48:02 chromaticwt: SBCL slowly generates very fast code. 00:48:09 chromaticwt: there are many, and they're fast at different things 00:48:17 so best if you say what you need the fastness in (: 00:48:40 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.25] has joined #lisp 00:49:23 Well, fast, and very fast with judicious use of type declarations and avoidance of consing. 00:51:09 -!- PECCU [~peccu@ZL198141.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:51:32 PECCU [~peccu@ZL198141.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:51:44 gigamonkey: expanding the docstring with a mouse-click would be great. None-the-less, i would imagine that where there is an expansion to be had if it expands to anything more than prose-style text the :pre would still be desired. 00:51:47 Since reader macros may return 0 forms or 1 form, I kinda wonder why they can't return multiple forms... (no, I really haven't thought this through. Maybe it would be extra complexity for no actual added advantage...) 00:52:11 In the CLISP interpreter, when a program "breaks," is there a way to tell which line number it broke on? 00:52:24 kfizz: Do you use Slime? 00:52:41 -!- snearch [~snearch@g231108214.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 00:52:49 GNU CLISP 00:53:02 RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@rrcs-184-75-39-42.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:53:12 The question still applies. Slime is a sort of "IDE plugin" for emacs. 00:53:32 Oh, well then, no. Just the interpreter by itself. 00:53:53 kfizz: Usage of Slime is highly recommended. 00:54:03 Especially if you want to get #lisp help. 00:54:32 I would use it, but I'd have to learn emacs :/ I'm a vim user and working on a project. 00:54:42 If you use Quicklisp, which you should, setting up Slime should be pretty easy: (ql:quickload "quicklisp-slime-helper"). 00:54:52 kfizz: you can use slimev 00:55:21 kfizz: use viper-mode 00:55:26 gigamonkey: Also, while it may be worthy to disuade ASCII art doing so shouldn't get in the way of a proper communiction of things like properly indentend lisp forms or a well present EBNF grammar. 00:55:28 oudeis_ [~oudeis@host-78-148-98-241.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:07 daimrod, is that part of slime or a standalone? 00:56:19 kfizz: to answer your original question, you can get a backtrace from clisp that tells you which function the error happened in (and usually, what the arguments to that function were) 00:57:20 kfizz: check out http://www.gnu.org/s/clisp/impnotes/debugger.html 00:57:34 -!- chromaticwt [~kvirc@m870436d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:57:34 kfizz: slimev is a swank client. (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1251706 00:57:39 oups sorry 00:57:51 Thanks antifuchs, I'll read up on that. Daimrod, I'll check that out, too. 00:57:54 kfizz: http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=2531 00:58:09 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@host-78-148-98-37.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:58:47 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:03:08 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:03:15 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@188-67-240-100.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:03:19 -!- Pterygota [~me@cpe-76-188-7-196.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:04:53 Hexstream: I think remove-if-not is deprecated. I think you can replace it with (remove-if (complement #'blah)) see: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw51/CLHS/Issues/iss345_w.htm 01:05:13 parabolize: REMOVE-IF-NOT is "undeprecated" in practice. 01:07:01 -!- srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:07:15 ok 01:07:44 -!- oudeis_ [~oudeis@host-78-148-98-241.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:08:30 chromaticwt [~user@67-41-15-81.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:56 -!- RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@rrcs-184-75-39-42.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: RomyEatsDrupal] 01:12:27 actually, kfizz, the clisp docs have the backtrace command documented at http://www.gnu.org/s/clisp/impnotes/repl.html - sorry for the misleading link 01:12:34 mathrick [~mathrick@2.106.54.223] has joined #lisp 01:13:26 yake [~yake@115.223.14.138] has joined #lisp 01:14:47 antifuchs, thanks so much! I was a little lost on the other one, but wasn't going to complain out of ignorance ;) 01:15:24 hah 01:15:29 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 01:15:48 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 01:16:00 the whole impnotes document pretty much covers a lot about what sets clisp apart, and how to use the implementation-specific parts of it. there's a wealth of information in there! 01:16:44 -!- yates [c05e5c0b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.94.92.11] has quit [] 01:17:44 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@2.106.54.223] has quit [Quit: running out of data on my plan :(] 01:21:04 RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@rrcs-184-75-39-42.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:21:44 Noctifer_ [~Noctifer@89.204.130.97] has joined #lisp 01:22:25 -!- antifuchs [~foobar@guestnet.franz.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 01:25:43 -!- Noctifer [~Noctifer@82.113.98.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:25:49 -!- Noctifer_ is now known as Noctifer 01:27:53 -!- yake [~yake@115.223.14.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:32:42 am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.158] has joined #lisp 01:37:04 I've always been intrigued by the fact that clisp FASLs are platform independent. 01:37:27 Never intrigued enough to actually use it, though. 01:37:34 CLISP uses platform-independent bytecode, I think. 01:37:49 yeah, a rather simple one, too, iirc 01:38:02 Which might explain the slowness :) 01:38:29 Hexstream: it's also filled with Hysterical Issues from its past ;) 01:38:43 Who isn't? 01:39:14 yeah, but I can't forget looking at its memory allocation code and discussion related to it 01:40:25 it did something weird with allocating a chunk of memory the manually adjusting it to page boundary, without using proper APIs 01:40:51 therefore making a big convoluted voodoo out of what should have been <5 library calls 01:41:32 p_l: istr the biggest issue being that it mprotect-ed malloc-ed addresses. 01:41:56 that sounds awful 01:42:05 and unportable 01:42:49 phadthai: and the author defended the code as proper, citing unix manuals as source which claimed it to be horrible abomination, and didn't listen to arguments 01:43:42 phadthai: I think the only reason it works is because underlying mapping exists anyway for the malloc to work 01:43:46 some Unix before MAP_ANON maybe 01:44:06 phadthai: it wouldn't have mprotect then, afaik 01:44:16 odd :) 01:45:37 anyway, it works only because mmap doesn't hold its own mapping data, but simply asks kernel to adjust page tables, and thus even if malloc uses sbrk(), there are pagetable entries underneath on all systems with paging 01:45:58  which is not guaranteed to be true depending on VM system 01:46:06 well even sbrk allocations should be protectable of course, but a libc malloc implementation might totally differ from another 01:46:44 so yeah I understand the issues with page alignment then 01:47:03 still, that's what mmap() is for 01:47:08 agreed 01:47:35 phadthai: also, the code had high WTF/h value 01:47:53 somewhat reminds me when I looked at the innodb code... 01:48:26 at least one of its early incarnations convinced me to switch to postgresql if I needed more than isam features 01:48:47 I'm getting off-topic though 01:50:06 I switched because of the encoding issues. 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I tried (format nil "~0$" pi) and it gave me 3. (i want to get rid of that dot after 3 also) 03:10:13 wildnux: Perhaps use ROUND on the number? 03:10:29 "whole number" as in "integer" presumably? 03:10:50 guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-xlwwgqardfjzzlcv] has joined #lisp 03:11:39 wildnux: (princ-to-string (round pi)) ? 03:11:42 Hexstream: yes sir, i basically want round , so I guess i will use round 03:11:44 :) 03:11:48 Hexstream: thank you 03:12:45 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:14:47 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:16:05 drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:17 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.25] has joined #lisp 03:21:46 Sicrus [~Sicrus@pool-173-54-116-181.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:24:26 -!- mickbeaver [~none@avalanche.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:26:10 -!- Sicrus [~Sicrus@pool-173-54-116-181.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 03:29:54 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:30:44 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 03:35:47 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:36:51 -!- rme [rme@A955740.5174A474.699BA7A6.IP] has quit [Quit: rme] 03:36:51 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.147.52] has quit [Quit: rme] 03:42:41 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-155-193-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:36 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 03:48:48 chp [~user@c-68-45-180-238.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:06 dys` [~andreas@krlh-5f71cdd9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:44 -!- dys [~andreas@krlh-5f71cd95.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:52:55 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 03:53:28 janissary [~user@adsl-98-85-5-173.mco.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:41 -!- yeltzooo [~yeltzooo@ec2-50-18-131-205.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:56:24 antifuchs [~foobar@50-0-91-119.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 03:56:29 yeltzooo [~yeltzooo@ec2-50-18-131-205.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 04:01:05 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@xdsl-77-86-196-131.nebulazone.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:01:18 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.20.102] has joined #lisp 04:06:27 -!- parabolize [~gyro@c-75-71-247-61.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:08:24 parabolize [~gyro@c-75-71-247-61.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:31 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-155-193-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:12:27 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 04:13:02 tbatchelli [~user@c-71-198-214-67.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:13:37 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:13:53 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:17:12 -!- antifuchs [~foobar@50-0-91-119.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 04:20:00 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 04:20:02 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.25] has joined #lisp 04:21:04 mon_key`: too sad how the web loses pages. Try http://web.archive.org/web/20070929150931/http://www.simonshepherd.supanet.com/tea.htm 04:24:00 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:24:36 kfizz: have a look at http://www.cliki.net/TutorialClispDebugger 04:24:55 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:25:31 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.82.67.79] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 04:25:32 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-155-193-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:33 kfizz: in general, in lisp you don't get line numbers, because the source is not a text file, but a sexp data structure, whats more, that could be generated at read time or a macro expansion time. 04:27:13 RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@pool-71-167-243-21.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:13 eh, lisp could totally provide line numbers 04:28:37 I mean, it basically does, just not visibly 04:28:43 depending on impl and debug settings 04:28:51 kfizz: more to the point, use SLIME. Then you'll end up in the debugger from whence you can jump to the source with a keystroke. 04:28:53 otherwise 'v' in sldb wouldn't work 04:30:23 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!] 04:31:08 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.40] has joined #lisp 04:34:40 rme [~rme@50.43.147.52] has joined #lisp 04:39:00 gigamonkey: Ignore requests for 
-wrapping, set white-space: pre-wrap; for the appropriate elements in the CSS instead. ;)
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04:47:16  pjb: thanks for the link!
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04:56:27  Hi, is anyone having trouble with Postmodern on OS X 10.6.8 (debian is fine) The function cl-postgres::write-uint4 is undefined.
04:56:30     [Condition of type undefined-function]
04:56:55  try deleting fasls
04:56:59  this when you connect-toplevel
04:57:02  ok
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06:02:26  Is anybody here employed by Freiheit? I'd like to ask some questions.
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06:05:39  What about sneding your questions to  kontakt@freiheit.com ?
06:06:11  pjb: I did. I just haven't received a response in a few days, and thought it might be faster to ask here.
06:06:51  As a German company, I'd expect them to be connected later during the day. It's a little early.  Try again in a few hours.
06:07:17  pjb: Hmm, you're right.
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09:16:28  akovalenko: nikodemus_: pjb: thank you for your help with my lecture. Result is at: http://www.slideshare.net/DamienCassou/metaprogramming-and-reflection-in-common-lisp and https://github.com/DamienCassou/DSLides
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11:29:17  is anyone using clisp+hunchentoot? I cannot use handle-static-file
11:29:21  http://paste.lisp.org/+2PJ1
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11:35:51  Hi! I want to create a function that returns a function that displays a message: (defun mm/pm (msg)  (lambda () (interactive) (message msg))). But (funcall (mm/pm "hallo")) gives an error (msg is void) (it's emacs lisp)
11:36:05  Can you help me?
11:36:23  hc96: you should probably ask in #emacs then
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11:36:42  this is a channel about common lisp
11:38:16  hm... ok. Thank you! But I'd say this is a general misunderstanding of Lisp, so I tried it here :)
11:38:46  msg is not evaluated in the lambda-call but at the call of the lambda-function
11:39:20  understanding your problem requires background that Common Lisp programmers do not generally have
11:40:20  Ralith: ok, I'll try it in #emacs
11:41:26  hc96: you're using a closure but msg isn't defined.
11:41:47  oh forget it.
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11:45:19  daimrod: it looked defined to meis this a dynamic scope thing?
11:45:57  looks like you've to use lexical-let
11:46:07  what?
11:46:07  closure doesn't capture over local variables in elisp?
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11:47:23  hello
11:47:59  why won't sbcl let me create a function called "class"? yet other CL implementations don't mind
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11:50:07  what does the error message tell you?
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11:51:26  something about it being locked. I don't understand what's the issue though, there's no function named class in standard lib so where's the conflict?
11:53:06  do you understand how Common Lisp packages work?
11:53:16  and how they interact with symbols?
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11:53:48  beelike: http://l1sp.org/cl/11.1.2.1.2
11:53:55  vaguely
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11:55:30  beelike: the oversimplified version: The same symbol is used whether you're creating a function, or a macro, or a variable, or anything else that is named by a symbol.
11:55:56  then how can I have class, variable, function named the same?
11:56:20  why wouldn't you?
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11:57:27  if it's all the same symbol why aren't they conflicting each other
11:57:45  because that's not a conflicting operation?
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11:58:45  Ralith doesn't know what he's talking about.
11:58:56  this is entirely possible!
11:59:01  The name CL:CLASS has special restrictions per the standard.
11:59:25  So do other symbols in the CL package. Some other implementations are aggressive about enforcing those restrictions.
11:59:40  don't you get the same behavior from SBCL whenever you try to bind something to a symbol in CL?
12:00:17  beelike: which other implementations did you try?
12:00:21  Xach: where was I wrong?
12:00:48  ccl, clisp
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12:01:16  beelike: Really? clisp errors for me.
12:01:30  in here it doesn't
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12:02:17  Well, anyway, systems that error are being aggressive about the undefinedness of the consequences in http://l1sp.org/cl/11.1.2.1.2
12:02:37  using clisp 2.47 by the way
12:02:53  beelike: in 2.49 it's an error.
12:02:54  okay
12:02:58  because as far as I can see, I said nothing that contradicts the spec.
12:03:35  Ralith: Ok, how about: Ralith is wandering aimlessly and unhelpfully far away from the real issue.
12:04:00  I chose to answer beelike's questions.
12:04:25  that doesn't seem aimless or unhelpful.
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12:05:13  I could have observed "the spec says you can't do that" and left it at that, but that wouldn't have done much good as far as conveying why.
12:05:20  beelike: same in allegro cl, lispworks, ecl, cmucl.
12:05:34  beelike: abcl and ccl are two of the few that don't lock the CL package.
12:05:45  beelike: while it is perfectly possible to have both a class, a function, and a variable all called FOO without them conflicting, the ANSI standard places certain restrictions on doing that to symbols in the COMMON-LISP package -- and some implementations enforce those restrictions
12:06:21  scieneer also doesn't lock CL
12:06:21  (sbcl also allows people to request that those restrictions are applied to their own packages)
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12:19:49  Ralith: why does the spec say that?
12:21:29  Xach: I misspoke. More precisely: that wouldn't have done much good as far as improving beelike's understanding of why he encountered the problem.
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12:22:14  I could only speculate as to the reasoning the authors of the spec used there.
12:22:32 EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp
12:22:35 *Xach* too
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12:23:39  (though, having played with compiler tech a bit recently, my first guess would be "because some things are easier to reason about if you can make assumptions about certain bindings")
12:23:39 -!- df_aldur is now known as df
12:31:32  for functions and variables, that's the main incentive there, yes. for why you can't define CLASS as function, i think the reason has more to do with historical reasons and simplicity of specification. (easier to list a whole mass of things you're not allowed to do, instead of providing exceptions when you are).
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12:32:31  also easier if you ever want to update the standard and add, say a functional called CL:CLASS -- you don't have to worry about breaking previously working programs
12:32:43  s/functional/function/
12:36:29  Which implementation first added actual locks on CL?
12:37:02  It might have been quite a different outcry if CL-NG defined a function CL:CLASS and it was in widespread practice to name a function that.
12:37:13  nikodemus: if CL standard is updated, (FLET ((CL:CLASS ...)) ...) could become illegal
12:37:18  *invalid
12:37:19  Oh, SBCL! You helpful pedant!
12:38:18  so, really, it's not protecting against future definitions of existing symbols, just against independent libraries colliding.
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12:45:28  akovalenko: FLET of symbols in CL is actually legal, as long as there isn't a global function by that name
12:46:00  oh wait, that's probably what you were alluding to :) /nevermindme
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15:31:15 <_stink_> hey folks. new to lisp. i'd like to try to write something that can launch a terminal application and pretend to be a user (with terminal scraping, etc.) i've had a hard time finding any google results to help.  any advice on libraries or even some stuff to google about?
15:31:53  'expect'
15:32:05  _stink_: look at trivial-shell and shelisp
15:32:39 <_stink_> ah, fantastic.  thanks much.
15:34:24 *Xach* would like to get a clexpect going
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15:46:15  how easy it is to bundle a lisp app with a lisp implementation and all lisp dependencies so the end user will have nothing to install ?
15:47:06  kilon: I think that's what buildapp does.
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15:47:33 <|3b|> most lisps can dump an executable image containing the app and lisp deps
15:47:35 chromati` [~user@67-41-15-81.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp
15:47:42 <|3b|> might be large though
15:48:21  daimrod: thanks checking it
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15:48:44  |3b|: by large you mean > 100 MB ?
15:48:54  kilon: very unlikely.
15:49:06 <|3b|> depends on what you load, probably not quite that big
15:49:40  on a 64-bit x86 sbcl, the baseline is around 40+MB
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15:49:55  but you're generally going to be binding code in that, not data
15:49:56  well if it can bundle an app with some deps and lisp in a 50mb download uncrompressed I wont complain , at all !
15:50:01  so it shouldn't grow into hundreds of megs
15:50:10 chromaticwt [~user@67-41-15-81.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp
15:50:21  sound like a very good size to me
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15:50:50  didn't sbcl get compressed image support recently?
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15:51:12  we've got very small "shell-script" style utilities that need to access some lisp stdlib stuff for data access, so 40+MB little utility executables it is ;)
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15:52:19  I assume the bundles are os specific
15:52:37  yes, they're typically native code binary executables
15:52:57  ok makes sense
15:53:07  with everything effectively statically linked into them at the time of image creation
15:53:37  (not sure how some of the ffi linkages work though; I don't use that)
15:54:32  i assume its relatively easy to distribute a light package that can use quicklisp to download extra deps according to user needs
15:54:47 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp
15:54:57  haven't tried it, but it might be far from a "download & invoke" situation
15:55:10  for the user
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15:56:41  well if the libraries dont use any library that needs compiling I don's see why not
15:56:46  plus, you should look into if quicklisp can do repeatable-version downloads, so you don't get a newer & potentially incompatible library vs what you originally built with
15:57:33  or make your own dist
15:58:04  yeah you are right of course , its probably better to make one complete download and be on the safe side
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16:00:40 <|3b|> you can get a specific set of old versions from quicklisp
16:01:44  cool, that's good to know
16:01:59  yes I read about that too, don't know how specific is though. For example do all version make it to quicklisp repo ?
16:02:30  are older versions removed to save space ?
16:02:58  probably not
16:03:16 <|3b|> quicklisp groups things into 'dists', each dist is a set of libs/apps/whatever, with whatever version was current when the dist was made
16:03:43 <|3b|> for the official dists xach makes, as far as i know they never go away, so you can go back to any old one
16:03:56 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
16:04:06  oh I did not know quicklisp was for apps too, I thought it was only for third partly libraries
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16:04:58 <|3b|> mostly libs, but i don't think it actively filters other stuff out
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16:05:31 <|3b|> and there is some overlap between 'lib' and 'app you use by calling functions' :)
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16:06:32 <|3b|> for example drakma or opticl i've probably used interactively as much as from code
16:06:46 -!- micro`_ is now known as micro`
16:07:26  another questions is , that lisp permits live coding , for example when you hit an error , the app does not exit like in python or other languages but like smalltalk it stops the execution and prompts the debugger to ask you how to proceed, in essense it give you the ability to change and correct code without stoping the execution even in a case of error, am I correct ?
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16:07:42 <|3b|> more-or-less
16:08:10  so its possible to run a tiny code and keep expanding and developing it while it runs ?
16:08:11 <|3b|> whether you can actually continue from that spot depends on implementation, compilation settings, restarts etc
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16:08:38 <|3b|> you usually can with a bit of effort to set stuff up right though
16:09:14 <|3b|> and you can keep data loaded and try functions individually, or restart after being stopped by an error more easily than if you had to reload everything from scratch
16:09:19  so its a possibility that after an error the program to exit and I will need to run it again ?
16:09:37 -!- ski_ [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
16:10:08 <|3b|> the lisp is probably still running, but you might not have any options aside from going back to the repl from the debugger for example
16:10:33  in smalltalk there is no sense of "execution" like in python, because everything is a live object , its execution can only be paused by the debugger, it can never be stopped
16:11:04 <|3b|> (poorly behaved foreign libs might exit the whole thing though, those are always annoying, or if you turn down safety settings you might be able to break it beyond the possibility of continuing)
16:11:37  kilon: exceptions are nicely managed in CL
16:11:39  it make sense for FFI , I am only talking about pure lisp
16:12:11 -!- chromaticwt [~user@67-41-15-81.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:12:11  thought I understand "pure" is a relative term
16:13:38 <|3b|> well, for example if you have a loop from 1 to 100, and it errors on 42, whether you can try 42 again and continue from there or not depends on compiler setting and how you wrote the code
16:14:12  nice to know daimrod, what I did not like about python is that the errors were very simple and straight to the point but when an error was cryptic there is was anything you could do about it
16:14:44  kilon: you should definitely read PCL, he has really nice chapter on execptions.
16:14:48  it*
16:15:18 <|3b|> probably easier to just try using CL for a bit, then when you run into something annoying ask if it could be better if you did something differently
16:15:39  |3b|: yes that is what I am talking about, to show me the line, to show me the code that errors and to show me the hierarchy of the error too and then the debugger gives me options on how to proceed even correct my code on the fly, that is what smalltalk does and if lisp does this as well, it another reason for me to use it alot
16:16:14 <|3b|> hard to answer general questions well, since a lot of it is configurable, or depends on implementation, or is possible but you have to do it yourself
16:16:29  ok thanks for the info
16:17:46  just curious though, do people write code that uses restarts in non-interactive settings?
16:18:30 *|3b|* doesn't do so often, but i've seen code that does
16:18:48  do you recall the case that did?
16:23:33  Phoodus: http://chaitanyagupta.com/lisp/restarts.html this tutorial does.
16:24:35 <|3b|> looks like i've used it with cl-json's json-rpc, to tell it how to handle errors
16:25:24  hmm, ok
16:26:01 <|3b|> also https://github.com/3b/clws/blob/refactor/buffer.lisp#L266
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16:28:14 <|3b|> http://www.google.com/codesearch#search/&q=invoke-restart lang:lisp <- more examples :)
16:28:57  heh
16:29:07  yeah, I might find some way to wind this into the code
16:29:52  got some interesting places where handling errors depends on the caller context, but still all of them I can think of imply an abort & unwind, so just doing normal error catches still seems to apply
16:30:14  character encoding issues and replacement logic in SBCL.
16:30:17  but if you don't keep options in mind, you'll never end up using something potentially useful
16:32:03 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.42] has joined #lisp
16:33:53  wow -> https://github.com/franzinc/cl-python#readme
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16:34:55  sky is the limit :)
16:35:12  wonder how ridiculously slow numpy is under that
16:35:28  Why would it be slow?
16:35:50  Is numpy written in python?
16:36:17  I was going to say yes, but now I'm wondering if it's actually in C or something
16:36:51  numpy wont work or any c based python library
16:37:07  numpy is in c yes , its core
16:37:22  like 90% of cpython libraries out there
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16:40:13  still however is extremely useful for porting python code to lisp without rewriting the code to lisp
16:40:42  *rewriting the code in Lisp
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16:43:06  it might also be very cool to have SLIME if you have to code in python
16:48:17 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.138.247] has joined #lisp
16:48:56  you people adore slime, don't you ? ;)
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16:50:55 <|3b|> nah, we just dislike everything else more :p
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16:57:07  |3b|: can i hassle you to add :descriptions to your system files?
16:57:27 <|3b|> Xach: you already have (indirectly)
16:57:32  oh
16:57:37 *Xach* indirectly does it again
16:58:20 *|3b|* will at some point, just hasn't gotten to it yet
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17:08:06  a fasl that says: using SBCL version 0.9.0
17:08:34 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA02B3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp
17:08:38  is there a reange of versions of SBCL that work with that?
17:08:43 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-024.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp
17:09:17  like 0.9.x
17:12:08  yes, 0.9.0
17:12:27  it used to have a fasl file version that would be only periodicall updated
17:12:31  now every update changes the version
17:12:40 akovalenko [~akovalenk@77.51.45.138] has joined #lisp
17:13:34  thanks
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17:21:42  hello. can loop collect into something other than a list?
17:22:06  beelike: nope
17:22:53 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit []
17:24:55  you can manually trap whatever you like and return it at the end.
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17:27:01  I'm trying to do it with a vector (string). do I have to manually realloc like in C?
17:27:07  hopefully not
17:27:30 <|3b|> for a string, with-output-to-string might be easier
17:28:09  that sounds good
17:28:31  and vector-push-extend (for ajustable array with a fill pointer) is for vectors in general
17:28:41 <|3b|> you can also vector-push-extend an adjustable vector, or collect and coerce to a string at the end if you don't care about efficiency
17:31:13  a string can be a vector, no?
17:31:25 <|3b|> s/can be/is/
17:31:27  (and with-output-to-string is probably the easiest indeed)
17:31:31  |3b|: thanks
17:31:43  |3b|: so it can have a fill pointer...
17:31:48 <|3b|> right
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17:35:18  just to through it out there, iterate can collect into something other than a list.  (iter (for c ..) (collect c result-type 'string))
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17:35:25  nice
17:35:37  series can too :p
17:36:08  I have to check series out one of these days
17:36:29  it's pretty neat, but the canonical implementation is insane
17:36:55  what's series?
17:37:01  I think a less optimized implementation would be quite useful
17:37:18  beelike: it's another way to look at iteration
17:37:38  a lot like what are now called generators
17:38:20  the SERIES package attempts to convert the functional style into fast iterative loops
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17:39:16  one of my "someday" projects is to make a series package for sbcl that integrates at a lower level
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17:41:21  just googled it, looks interesting
17:41:48  Series is pretty cool.  But I hardly use it these days.
17:42:05  rtoyg: why not?
17:42:28  er
17:42:33  rtoym: why not?
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17:43:16  dlowe: Mostly because I don't do that much in lisp anymore.
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17:44:12  Once in a while, when I need things like scan-range and ohers, I'll use it.
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17:46:20  I've often thougt of redoing it with macrolet instead of compler-let, but then, everyone has compiler-let somewhere, so what's the point?
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17:55:47  what is that library called, it's a portable version of run-program that can read from program's stdout?  I can't find it in ql:system-apropos
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18:01:36  beelike: asdf:run-shell-command, maybe
18:01:40 nikodemus [~nikodemus@188-67-240-100.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp
18:02:36  beelike: trivial-shell ?
18:02:44  thanks i'll try both
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18:03:49  trivial-shell just seems to return the output as a string
18:04:15  couldn't see away to bind the output
18:06:19  what do you mean ?
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18:12:20  i would like to launch a program and read from its stdout and write to it's stdin interactively.
18:12:28  (forgot to mention I need both)
18:12:39  since that neither trivial-shell nor run-shell-command can do that
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18:18:35  but it must be possible portably as ltk is doing it. I'll check it's source
18:18:36  beelike: hmm maybe run-program then
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18:50:17  if cross-implementation portability is important, wrapping popen() is probably the easiest way to go
18:50:41  actually even popen can't do it
18:50:51  ah yes
18:50:55  you can just specify "r" or "w" mode, nor "rw"
18:50:58  "I need both"
18:51:01  yeah
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18:52:43  Did you look at 'expect' yet?
18:53:20  I haven't I'll check it out
18:53:42 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.147.52] has quit [Quit: rme]
18:53:46  Also see 'libexpect'.
18:53:58  ok thanks
18:54:00 Arsonide [~Arsonide@99-152-148-99.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp
18:54:00  expect is a bit overkill
18:54:12  No.
18:54:13 -!- chromaticwt [~user@67-41-15-81.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:54:14  anything simpler?
18:54:16 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:54:16  popen is underkill.
18:54:23  You said you wanted automation.
18:54:51  Do any of you use Sublime Text? I wanted to use that for my Windows LISP ventures. I'm just starting out. It has a "run" feature but I'm not sure how to hook that in to SBCL properly.
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18:55:09  in other languages it's called popen2; maybe use that search term.
18:55:12  Well, expect might be the best thing ready to use, so it's not necessary "more overkill than "
18:55:36  popen2 doesn't do what you said you want, either.
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18:56:04  Those just play with pipes -- nothing that expects a terminal will be happy.
18:56:25  "interactively" is a vague term, but it can imply "pty/console" (then expect is not an overkill).
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18:59:58  program I want to launch reads from stdin until EOF, and writes to stdout after every read. I want to control it
19:00:36  looks like expect will do what I need
19:01:56  If the particular program you want to control doesn't care about terminals, then pipes may do.
19:02:08  But expect will handle the general case.
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19:46:25  can you recommend me video tutorials for programming lisp on emacs ?
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19:49:57  kilon: I don't think there are any.
19:50:16  strange
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19:51:27  well i guess i will just use the emacs onboard tutorials
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20:01:03  kilon: a friend of mine was very excited about the emacs peepcode screencast: http://peepcode.com/products/meet-emacs
20:01:27  not sure it touches on lisp specifics, but it's a good intro to it as a whole
20:01:41  thanks will read
20:01:53  (it does cost money, but it's apparently very much worth it)
20:02:00  There was a slime video -- I don't recall how tutorial it was. Basic emacs usage is probably a prerequisite thoug -- http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/ (it's the Marco Baringer video, other good info on that link)
20:02:07  do i need to setup emacs for writting lisp code ?
20:04:57  not a lot - if you install slime-quicklisp-helper, it'll tell you a few forms to put into your .emacs init file, and that should be enough to get you started with connecting to a lisp & getting started
20:05:59 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@94.197.127.112.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
20:05:59  search for slime on this link for directions to what antifuchs said: http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/#installation
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20:06:53  kilon: that's assuming you already have quicklisp installed, if you don't have it installed I would recommend it though, it's a quick process
20:07:34  without slime , how emac know where lisp is installed ? i have clozure cl installed
20:07:43 GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-88-247.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
20:07:50  or does it use its own lisp ?
20:08:55  I'm trying to get SBCL working within Sublime Text, and for the most part I've almost got it working, but I need it to not display all that random stuff at the top when it starts. Is thta possible?
20:09:11  Arsonide: pass --noinform as an early argument
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20:09:43  kilon: emacs has a built-in lisp language called elisp. it's used to configure and extend emacs.
20:10:16  kilon: slime works as an elisp program that talks to a common lisp program.
20:10:17 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20:10:42  Ah, that's much better.
20:10:44  yes i know , about elisp , so that means that i need slime anyway
20:11:02  ok slime it is
20:11:03  It still gripes that it's an experimental build though. Might just swap over to CLisp. Is there a difference really?
20:11:15  kilon: slime is a pleasure:) I would help you do it without slime anyway but I don't know how.
20:11:56  if its a pleasure then there is no reason for me to avoid it
20:12:04  Arsonide: on windows, there's a friendly fork of sbcl that does not gripe and has better windows support
20:12:17 -!- pnq1 [~nick@AC818FF7.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20:12:20  Arsonide: it's linked from the www.sbcl.org download page
20:12:28  https://github.com/akovalenko/sbcl-win32-threads/wiki
20:12:29  good thing i know how to use vim, emacs seem like a piece of cake compared to vim :D
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20:15:22  Is lisp still used in common day/
20:16:05  jimi_: yes
20:16:07  According to my book yes.
20:16:21  I use lisp all common day
20:16:44  jimi: Yes
20:17:09  Both for amateurs like me, and experts like others here
20:17:23  I'm just obsessed with the idea of a program that can make more of itself. That's insane. I'm coming from C++ where I did a lot of procedural generation stuff with perlin noise and mersenne twister based algorithms.
20:17:26 LiamH [~healy@pool-108-18-171-26.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
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20:20:01  Arsonide: Yeah
20:21:15  I'm a college student, and not only find this language insanely interesting, but I also want to, eventually, go into computational linguistics
20:21:39  Assuming I can get past the initial wall of alienness, this is perfect for my needs. I'm just not sure how capable it will be for graphics and stuff. It seems to have a lot of hooks into various C based libraries though.
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20:22:52  Arsonide: There are lots of graphics libraries
20:23:12 joshe [~joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp
20:23:35  AFAIK, this means lots of LISP, lots of Prolog, and also lots of whatever language is championed by the people who give the university money
20:23:46 nikodemus [~nikodemus@188-67-240-100.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp
20:24:10  dont know why i see , lack of libraries brought up for lisp as an argument against it, since it supports FFI thats not an issue, any c/C++ library is a lisp library
20:24:24  I saw that word last night - prolog. No idea what it is though.
20:24:57  Hrm, another functional language
20:24:58  I haven't gone into Prolog, but iirc, it is a programming language for logicians based on PLANNER
20:25:02  its preferable of course to have a library in pure lisp, but even an ffi library will get the job done
20:25:02  which was based on MacLisp
20:25:21  For logicians?  I thought that it was actually made with linguistics in mind.
20:26:36  kilon: Interesting. Jesus so much to learn.
20:27:14 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp
20:27:29  that does not apply for lisp only Arsonide , every language has an FFI , even java, so the library issue is not an issue at all
20:28:27  Bike: AFAIK, it's for both
20:28:33  I know it was made for A.I
20:28:57  smalltalk for example has an excellent FFI , it makes it very easy to use C libraries , actually easier than using them from C 0_0
20:30:20 -!- antifuchs [~foobar@50-0-91-119.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.]
20:30:28  kilon sounds like an instant dyed-in-the-wool Common Lisper :)
20:30:32  and i see lisp is not limited to c libraries, java libraries can be acessed to, python libraries and so
20:30:43  I don't think FFI can work with C++ due to name mangling.
20:30:55  kilon, which smalltalk implementation?
20:31:20  araujo: all of them
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20:31:53  i mean all of the modern ones, have FFI facilites
20:32:13  mmm.. well, certainly, I just wonder about the "so easy" part
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20:33:10  Cosman246: well, lots of things were made for AI.  Prolog was originally made with natural-language processing, specifically, in mind, I think.
20:33:20  Bike: Makes sense
20:33:29  araujo: i dont know if you got my previous message
20:33:32 *Xach* uses Common Lisp to make lolcats
20:33:42  kilon, I got .. did you get mine? :P
20:33:49  nope
20:33:52  mmm.. well, certainly, I just wonder about the "so easy" part ,<-- this one
20:34:05  regarding the bindings
20:35:10  araujo: here an example -> http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/2426
20:35:17  Xach: srsly?
20:35:34  mon_key: you knew about it, right? http://wigflip.com/roflbot/ is a CL program.
20:36:28  basically it calls a c function in a single line of code , not bad at all ;)
20:37:27  kilon, well, never used the Squeak FFI ..... FFI is usually one thing in theory and other in practice too
20:37:30  Sorry if this is a basic question but is there some way to wrap a lisp program into an executable?
20:37:35  as with all other stuff at http://wigflip.com/
20:37:39  Arsonide: yes.
20:37:44  Xach: I knew about wigflip but didn't realize you were _using_ it for lolcats. I do remember reading that you wre "this close" to your code doing the annotations.
20:38:00  Arsonide: It varies by implementation. I use SBCL and Buildapp to make executables.
20:38:24  araujo: i am pretty sure , that is the case with squeak too, i only mentioned its possible and usually easy to do so, not always though
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20:41:12  when you mess with c, you are in for big surprises on what can go wrong and of course FFIs are not that good for porting whole libraries, SWIG is more appropriate for that
20:41:29 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@242.Red-88-24-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?]
20:41:33  Xach: Is quicklisp not solid enough now to be considered no longer in need of the 'Beta' tag?
20:45:10  Guthur: i would like to add a few more things and some documentation before considering it non beta
20:45:57  I decided to do my painting application project in both lisp and smalltalk and see what will win me over , since just reading book and writing random code wont help me form a suitable opinion
20:49:03  anyone knows of a painting application made in lisp ? I don't care how much complex or simple it is as long as its open sorce
20:51:18  Someone wrote a simple fatbits-tyle pixel editor in clim a few years ago, but I can't remember the name.
20:51:46  I haven't heard of anything else.
20:51:52 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@205.233.80.64] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:52:06  there was the n-system stuff long ago, but that was not open source.
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20:52:36  no problem will just use image processing code
20:52:36  mirai and izware and whatnot
20:53:48  I was planning to use mypaint as template for my code, its c + python application, mostly python
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20:58:39  Xach: do you plan for a web browser for your quicklisp repo ?
20:59:33 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-178-142.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
21:00:43  kilon: What would that be like?
21:01:16  well i mean the ability to browse the available libraries from your website
21:01:35  kilon: That is available now.
21:01:44  i am blind
21:01:53  I noticed that days ago when you bitched about cmucl.
21:03:14  I'd like to add more info about libraries, like what they are.
21:03:24  you mean this ?
21:03:42  http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/releases.html
21:03:42  Right now it is helpful for people who already know what they want but not so helpful for people who know what they want to do but not what they can use to do it.
21:03:49  kilon: That is the list.
21:04:29  well I meant a browser , something that can show me libraries according to filters and also have a search field
21:04:55  I would like to add something like that.
21:05:19  :)
21:05:26  sorry for the bitching
21:05:34  I did not mean to offend anyone
21:05:57  i was confused and overwhelmed
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21:22:47  kilon: I think something like this could be done on top of manifest for exampel
21:22:51  example*
21:23:45  anyone has a link to that SLIME video tutorial
21:23:56 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
21:24:19  The home page for slime, youtube, etc.
21:24:24  you mean the screencast on the official website ?
21:24:27  http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov this one? (it's 150 MB)
21:24:57 -!- iwillig [~ivan@ool-ad03c1a0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: leaving]
21:28:01  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B_4vhsmRRI
21:28:41 -!- jlaire [~jlaire@a88-115-181-148.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
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21:30:01  what is the advantage of using slime over m-x run-lisp?
21:30:11  s/is/are the advantages/
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21:30:58  chromaticwt: `run-lisp' is inferior - slime is superior
21:31:08  http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/
21:31:59 sacho_unreg [~sacho@90.154.195.168] has joined #lisp
21:32:14  chromaticwt: arglist hinting, jump-to-source, debugger, highlighting of compiler notes & warnings, nice repl, nice inspector
21:32:18  and much, much more
21:33:48  the slime documentation for remote lisp seems to out of date
21:33:59  is it still possible to do?
21:34:43  I do that sometimes.
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21:35:38  create-server does not seem to be in swank-loader.lisp anymore
21:35:55  and I can't load swank.lisp independently
21:35:56 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@pool-96-224-16-226.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen]
21:36:12  I just use (ql:quickload "swank") and then (swank:create-server ...)
21:36:19  chromaticwt: Another way of understanding Slime is to recognize that it lets Emacs interact in fun ways with a Swank server. This interaction provides numerous advantages as compared to
21:36:20  oh
21:36:31  xach: I like the sound of that
21:36:35  cheers
21:40:04  chromaticwt slime has auto completion too
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21:43:51  Xach: is there currently any information that Quicklisp knows about systems/packages that could be usefully surfaced by Manifest?
21:44:24   is there any performance advantage to be had by scanning a string for junk with cl-ppcre:scan'ing a string prior to giving the string to CL:PARSE-INTEGER when the junk-allowed is t?
21:46:14  gigamonkey: hmm, maybe provided-systems or provided-releases
21:46:19  mon_key: if it was important you could benchmark it. But I'd fall off my chair in surprise if you got a benefit that would be significant.
21:46:28  gigamonkey: thanx.
21:48:17  <- kills another classically erroneous and unfounded and likely early optimized and over-engineered assumption
21:49:45  how would one go about profiling a function?  M-x slime-profile-package?
21:50:04  I'd like to profile functions called by that function as well, etc
21:50:18  beelike: I us sb-sprof when I want to profile things.
21:52:08  I don't know any tricks or shortcuts for it. I just use start-profiling, stop-profiling, and report (I think)
21:52:24  you prefer it over slime's profile functions?
21:54:12  I haven't tried slime's profile functions.
21:54:22 *Xach* adds cl-bloom and cl-murmurhash
21:56:53  gigamonkey: Manifest could also snarf the systems in quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/systems.txt
21:57:12  No need to work against the text file, though.
21:57:13  does consed in profile mean constructing a cons cell?
21:57:18  profiler
21:57:27  construction of anything
21:57:31  beelike: No. it's a generic term for memory allocation too.
21:57:51  see http://l1sp.org/cl/glossary/cons
21:57:59  heh one of my functions have consed 1,824,901,888 times
21:58:11  MORE CONSING!
21:58:31 kloops [kloops@AMarseille-754-1-2-209.w90-15.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp
21:58:50  it would be cool if manifest and quickproject were consistent. Either quickproject generates a README rather than a README.txt or manifest look for README*
21:59:39 frito [~androirc@cpc12-sotn9-2-0-cust535.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp
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22:04:37  daimrod: shouldn't that be README.* ??
22:04:56 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-46-245.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp
22:05:56  mon_key: yes.
22:06:00  Xach: Is there an easy way to get a description of a system?
22:06:19  gigamonkey: What kind of description? Like, "A library for frobbing the fribbles"?
22:08:07 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
22:08:14 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp
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22:10:48  At the moment, descriptions like that are not available without loading the system and checking to see if the author provided a :description in the system definition.
22:11:01  loading the system definition, that is. and that can be a heavy operation.
22:11:49  gigamonkey: asdf:system-description ??
22:12:20 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp
22:12:37 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
22:13:47  I would like to compile that information for offline perusal.
22:13:53  Loading a system definition can be drastic.
22:14:01 oudeis [~oudeis@194-105-177-152.ifb.co.uk] has joined #lisp
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22:30:57  what about this: http://paste.lisp.org/+2PJG
22:31:42  Xach: dumping that data from system definition into dist, then?
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22:39:41  gigamonkey: does that paste help?
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22:50:56 Moepigal12h4 [4cadda2e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.173.218.46] has joined #lisp
22:51:05  hello
22:51:06  http://bit.ly/uPBolO
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23:13:23  mirai looks very nice
23:18:26 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-113-242.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill]
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23:21:04  is there a way to save the state of an instance?
23:21:38 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@188-67-240-100.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
23:21:52  wrap a let around it ?
23:22:56  (defun save-db (filename)
23:23:04  oops wrong buffer
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