00:00:59 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:01:41 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0522.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 00:07:13 Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@168.22.19.85] has joined #lisp 00:07:16 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 00:07:28 -!- Mustansir [~Mustansir@64.125.182.144] has quit [Quit: Mustansir] 00:07:38 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@168.22.19.85] has left #lisp 00:11:17 sipo [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:12:21 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 00:12:34 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.20.102] has joined #lisp 00:20:59 -!- sipo is now known as nicdev 00:21:23 -!- nicdev is now known as sipo 00:24:01 -!- nicdev_ is now known as sipo` 00:24:24 -!- sipo is now known as nicdev 00:24:40 -!- sipo` is now known as sipo 00:24:55 hcfd__ [~niall@host31-52-104-181.range31-52.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:27:18 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-35.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:42 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.12.61] has joined #lisp 00:32:59 -!- SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:33:49 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:33:54 -!- waltwhite [~waltwhite@113-9-190-109.dsl.ovh.fr] has quit [Quit: waltwhite] 00:34:45 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 00:38:31 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:44:07 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:44:50 hey all, I was wondering if there was some idiom for lazy evaluation using (every #'identity '(NIL T T T)) such that "every" would return NIL the moment it reached the NIL argument 00:46:53 ifnspifn: i wondered about it, does the clhs say something about the arguments which are evaluated? 00:47:24 also, it's trivial with either loop or recursion 00:47:47 ifnspifn: that is how it already works. 00:47:59 hm, in practice it seems that the predicate is continually applied 00:48:04 reading CLHS indicates otherwise 00:48:12 "every returns false as soon as any invocation of predicate returns false." 00:48:19 aye 00:48:24 perhaps I'm misreading my own code.. 00:48:27 ifnspifn: What suggests to you that it is continually applied? 00:49:06 Xach: for some it's less clear 00:49:22 at least, i didn't find it clear 00:49:23 ack, I'm a buffoon. The continual application of my function is because I use mapcar 00:49:43 and then, I use "every" on the returned list 00:49:45 madnificent: Do you find it clear now? 00:50:30 so, every is functioning as it should :D 00:50:48 Xach: for #'every, #'notany and #'notevery, yes. but the wording is different for #'some 00:51:31 -!- Drakken [~dan@ppp-70-225-178-203.dsl.chmpil.ameritech.net] has left #lisp 00:53:29 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:53:44 so, no. i'm still puzzled for #'some. afaict, the clhs doesn't specify at which point #'some should return, if it returns a non-nil value. 00:54:37 I think it returns the very first non-nil value 00:56:30 ifnspifn: yes, that's clear. what it doesn't say is whether or not it first applies predicate for each subsequent combination of sequences, or that it only calls the predicate until it has found its first non-nil value. 00:56:39 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0522.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 00:58:42 madnificent: doesn't "some returns the first non-nil value which is returned by an invocation of predicate" imply that the moment (predicate element_n) returns non-nil, it ceases application of the predicate? 00:58:46 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:59:02 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-35.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:59:27 or maybe I'm jumping to conclusions 00:59:29 no it doesnt 01:01:18 it could be devised like that so some could be implemented as (not (notany ...)) 01:01:28 ifnspifn: not necessarily. 01:01:28 i would have preferred it to be more explicit about it anyways 01:07:45 -!- marsell [~marsell@101.116.53.68] has quit [Quit: marsell] 01:15:11 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:15:25 there goes weblocks. 01:16:01 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 01:17:16 *Xach* wonders who to tell 01:17:46 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:19:42 Xach: what happened ? 01:23:13 hunchentoot:*default-handler* was made meaningless in 1.2.0 and the symbol was removed from the package definition in 1.2.2 01:23:29 weblocks/src/server.lisp does (setf hunchentoot:*default-server* ...) 01:26:11 *Xach* posts to the weblocks list 01:26:31 -!- ihyoyoung [raster@enlightenment2.osuosl.org] has quit [Quit: quit] 01:28:33 ihyoyoung [raster@enlightenment2.osuosl.org] has joined #lisp 01:32:01 how can i check which version of hunchentoot i am using? it's installed with quicklisp 01:32:58 -!- Soulman1 [~knute@80.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 01:33:13 nicdev: one way is (ql:where-is-system "hunchentoot") 01:36:31 -!- PECCU is now known as peccu 01:37:55 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-157-113.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:02 Xach: thanks. worked! i have 1.2.1. i have some code that was written for the previous version and it's now not working. 01:38:39 hey, Xach, you've been at the eclm?! oh, what a shame I couldn't make it. Would've been nice to meet you. 01:39:08 (heh, and I'm a quicklisp user for some time now as well. :) ) 01:39:55 it's nothing complex, couple of html generating functions that are associated to urls with create-prefix-dispatcher. has there been changes on how that function works? pointers on where i can check necessary modifications 01:40:00 -!- quackv4 [~quack@vps-1058467-4367.manage.myhosting.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:42:43 -!- EarlGray^ [~dalet@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:43:12 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:44:24 max-gerd! augh! 01:44:38 nicdev: the tbnl-devel list has details of what changed 01:45:00 http://lists.common-lisp.net/pipermail/tbnl-devel/2011-October/005644.html and more 01:45:26 mgr: i did not meet all the people who actually did make it whom i wanted to meet 01:45:45 mgr: i think i only nodded to beach, and waved to several very interesting norwegians :( 01:45:48 -!- oconnore [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:48:19 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:49:27 Xach: oh ok 01:49:51 -!- backspac3 [~jt@S010600212f37ae27.no.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:50:00 backspac3 [~jt@S010600212f37ae27.no.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:23 mgr: Are you going to the next Hamburg meeting? 01:51:20 Xach: hey, have you stubled upon http://www.other-dimension.net/ ? It's my most recent lisp project. :-) Art this time, togehter with a friend. Even won a price (3k Euro). c++, opengl, openni, nite, ecl, quicklisp, openlase, and more... 01:51:40 chp [~user@c-68-45-180-238.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:45 Xach: uh, when? where? who'll be there? 01:51:54 Xach: I should have cl-yahoo-finance updated in the next few evenings, hopefully tonight! 01:53:03 nice! 01:53:04 http://www.gewebtes-licht.de/#/page/15 there's a nice video as well 01:53:05 pnathan: nice! 01:53:18 ups, there http://www.gewebtes-licht.de/#/page/17 01:53:37 mgr: I'm not sure who will be at the next meeting. probably not me. 01:54:06 -!- peccu is now known as PECCU 01:54:08 Xach: uhm, do you mean the next ecl 2012?! 01:54:36 no 01:56:12 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 01:56:17 hamburg is actually quite a ride for me. :) I'm located at the other end of Germany. (Ok, ok, German is really small, yes... *g*) 01:56:26 Which end? 01:56:36 southern part 01:57:15 Xach: there's a reasean the mcclim town demo lists 21 German towns.. :) 01:57:22 Are you going to the Karlsruhe meeting? 01:57:42 the little one at our computer club? or which one? 01:57:54 Drakken [~dan@ppp-70-225-178-203.dsl.chmpil.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:02 I know only of one. and yes to that one. 01:58:12 but it's small 01:58:17 Steinstraße 23, 76133 Karlsruhemap 01:58:30 on December 7th 01:58:31 why do you know of that meeting?! where is it listed? 01:58:38 heh nice 01:58:48 I make it my business to know about as many Lisp meetings as possible! 01:58:56 you're good! 01:58:56 http://planet.lisp.org/meetings/ 01:59:20 For cl-unification... 01:59:22 http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-unification/downloads.html 01:59:28 ok that's more information about me that I want in this channel.. could we please delete the logs? :-) 01:59:36 http://common-lisp.net/viewvc/cl-unification/cl-unification/ 01:59:44 Where's the tarball? 02:00:35 Xach: we'll yes, that's the Entropia / Chaos computer club (ccc) karlsruhe meeting. how do you know about it? did cupe write you? 02:00:59 mgr: eric wolf (?) 02:01:22 Drakken: looks like the directions are out of date. 02:01:31 ok 02:01:31 Drakken: one option is to check it out of cvs. another is to get it from quicklisp 02:02:03 mgr: some month i'd like to travel to each lisp meeting on the calendar, but it would require a lot of air travel. 02:02:57 Xach: thanks 02:03:07 if you do I shurly can offer you a place to sleep 02:03:18 (-shurly) 02:03:23 ok, thanks. i will keep it in mind. 02:03:33 (that sounds strange. but of course I can :) ) 02:05:34 Xach: ok you're calender proposes a hard schedule! florida, toronto, karlsruh, nc, japan, berlin :-) 02:05:58 the berlin lispers meet on 24.12.?! I doubt that. 02:06:24 pnathan: oh dear, in what way does cl-yahoo-finance depend on quicklisp? 02:06:43 It runs ql:quickload 02:06:52 Ought it run the asdf- function? 02:06:54 Why? 02:07:02 That dependency should be expressed in the system file. 02:07:23 ...and it is. so no need to quickload anything in lisp source. 02:07:35 moi [~moi@99-75-56-190.lightspeed.dybhfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:17 Ahhhh ok 02:09:12 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 02:10:28 pnathan: (mapcar (lambda (object) (foo object)) list) can be more tersely written (mapcar #'foo list) 02:10:50 e.g. (mapcar #'cdr columns) 02:11:31 pnathan: also, it's pretty important to surround special variables with **s. 02:12:19 " Quadrescence: is defining a 'yes' and 'no' really preferable to using (constantly t) or (constantly nil)?" Depends on the circumstance. It was derived from the Unix command `yes'. (type `yes' in your terminal) 02:12:38 pnathan: also, PAIRUP duplicates the builtin function PAIRLIS 02:12:59 Quadrescence: I was flooding irc newbies with "/exec -out yes" in the 90s. 02:13:31 Xach, good man, though "/exec -o yes desu" might be a little more(less) appropriate 02:13:38 can anyone help me with a small programming error I;m getting? 02:14:11 Xach: Doh. Need to read standard more. Thanks! 02:14:54 Quadrescence: Is the circumstance "not knowing about CONSTANTLY"? 02:16:06 *Xach* floods all his github followers with updates to every .asd to add :description 02:16:50 Xach, No. In most cases, CONSTANTLY is probably more appropriate. If something has a "yes" or "no" answer, then I think YES and NO are fine. I used them often enough. I think a more apt question would be "is defining the reader macro #n$ really preferable to using (lambda (x1 x2 ... xn) ...)?" 02:17:07 Quadrescence: anyway, sorry to get nitpicky, but 14 personal utility libraries is wearing on me. 02:17:21 Xach, Yeah, I felt pretty bad about asking you to add it. 02:17:36 I would much rather see fewer than more. 02:17:50 I agree 02:17:53 Although I just ditched slyrus's ch-util, so maybe this just keeps equilibrium. 02:18:07 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:14 Is there any project to merge/lump together the Utility Libraries? 02:19:41 pnathan, I would say alexandria is sort of the "official" one, whatever that means. 02:19:45 No formal project. 02:20:05 and alexandria's goal isn't to explicitly lump together utility packages 02:20:28 -!- moi [~moi@99-75-56-190.lightspeed.dybhfl.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 02:21:02 Right. it's a more 'common code, conservatively put together' thing. 02:21:18 _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has joined #lisp 02:21:34 Of course qtility can be such a project to suck in every one else's utilities. ;) 02:22:04 Empire-building, hmmm? :) 02:23:19 I think my utility library is pretty decently organized -- obviously not perfect. And with quicklisp, really, I could take some stuff out, like Bradshaw's MEMOIZE package I stole. 02:24:40 -!- SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:25:28 Xach, you must admit you like[love] my "lambda-quote" 02:26:21 nialo- [nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:22 -!- backspac3 [~jt@S010600212f37ae27.no.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:26:33 I didn't notice it. The stuff I "loved" was light wrappers around standard functions, like negativep and positivep. 02:26:35 backspac3 [~jt@S010600212f37ae27.no.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:08 Xach, I am not sure if you're serious or sarcastic. Of course I hope the former. 02:27:49 after (enable-lambda-quote), (#1$$ 5) ==> 5 02:28:04 I mean what's nicer than obfuscating IDENTITY into something that looks like pseudo perl 02:28:19 or obfuscating LIST as #$$$ 02:29:28 (#$, and $$ in is bound to &rest in the generated lambda, hence #$$$ is equiv to (lambda (&rest $$) $$) ) 02:29:48 -!- nialo- is now known as nialo`` 02:29:55 what is this, haskell 02:29:59 ha 02:30:06 no, perl 02:30:13 -!- nialo` [nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:30:20 I assure you, there was a legitimate reason for it in Actual Work. 02:30:24 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-35.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:35 they always say that. 02:30:38 -!- ski_ [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:30:47 Mostly as a shortcut for specifying hundreds and hundreds of callbacks. 02:31:17 a callback group was specified by five lambda functions, so each group contained five lambdas 02:31:59 while 95% of the time I'll choose readability over succinctness, here, succinctness was more worth my time than readability. 02:33:48 Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483B211.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:45 gaidal [gaidal@59.42.114.133] has joined #lisp 02:35:04 Ralith, it does make functional programming a lot less of a pain in CL, though 02:35:33 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483B69A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:35:59 Quadrescence: write a reader macro for  so that you can type x.(+ x 2) 02:36:18 pjb, not obfuscating enough! 02:36:36 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-33-155-250.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:36:59 (I can't see any difficulty with writing such a macro, though) 02:42:01 might as well just do ( (x) (+ x 2)) 02:42:12 I display lambda as the unicode lambda in my emacs buffers 02:42:15 not much more typing and significantly simpler/clearer 02:43:02 is that possible? given that  is unicode 02:43:24 what's wrong with unicode? 02:45:59 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-130-8.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:47:15 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-173-168.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:49:18 having symbols with unicode characters is portable and works on any conforming implementation? can't see how it can when standard (afaik) doesn't even mention unicode 02:52:13 kennyd: No, not on conforming implementation. But on all implementations that support unicode. 02:53:00 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@24.106.207.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:53:18 Since most modern implementations support unicode, you can go ahead. But in library code, better to stick to the base-char. 02:54:26 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:55:01 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 02:55:35 Xach: grubbings around relating to pairlis demonstrated the hideousness of yahoo's results and how some deeper smarts (or less requesting text-ish results) in the code is needed for parsing correctly. Probably can't get it fixed tonight. I'll try to get it done by Monday 02:57:01 catogtp [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has joined #lisp 02:57:10 -!- resu [~resu@97.72.154.166] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:58:58 jjc [~jjc@50-46-182-239.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:01 msponge [~msponge@18.189.103.48] has joined #lisp 03:01:45 topo___ [~topo@f053044098.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 03:02:52 hello. how come I'm not getting any errors in here prior to + call? (defun add(a b) (declare (number a b)) (+ a b)) (add "foo" "bar") 03:03:27 Because while you are lying to the compiler, it is magnanimous and will run your code correctly. 03:03:35 Do not lie to lisp! 03:03:44 -!- topo__ [~topo@f053044181.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:04:00 -!- topo [~topo@f053044181.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:04:00 -!- topo___ is now known as topo 03:04:06 catogtp: type declarations are promises YOU make to the compiler. 03:04:08 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.246.218.131] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 03:05:13 so what should I do if I want to get error when incorrect types are passed? i thought that's what declare is for 03:05:26 Use check-type. 03:05:39 -!- jjc [~jjc@50-46-182-239.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: Bye.] 03:06:09 is declare just for optimization then? 03:06:15 Yes. 03:06:15 -!- pnathan [~Adium@98.145.116.190] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:06:44 You could have a checking wrapper: (defun checked-add (a b) (check-type a number) (check-type b number) (add a b)), with your add. 03:06:57 -!- gaidal [gaidal@59.42.114.133] has quit [] 03:07:46 -!- xristos [~x@research.suspicious.org] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 03:07:53 jjc [~jjc@50-46-182-239.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 03:07:58 okay 03:07:58 xristos [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has joined #lisp 03:08:06 -!- backspac3 [~jt@S010600212f37ae27.no.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:08:18 -!- xristos is now known as Guest49293 03:08:37 thanks 03:10:00 corkey [~corkysand@adsl-75-53-198-110.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:35 topo__ [~topo@f053044098.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 03:10:58 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:10:58 -!- Guest49293 is now known as xristos` 03:11:01 gaidal [~gaidal@59.42.114.133] has joined #lisp 03:11:04 -!- xristos` is now known as xristos 03:11:20 am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.46] has joined #lisp 03:11:31 backspac3 [~jt@S010600212f37ae27.no.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:11:34 -!- xristos is now known as Guest72591 03:11:40 -!- Guest72591 is now known as xristos` 03:11:48 -!- xristos` is now known as xristos 03:12:21 -!- corkey [~corkysand@adsl-75-53-198-110.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:13:46 -!- catogtp [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:17:49 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:17:51 Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:24 xcv [~xcv@dsl-225-28.hive.is] has joined #lisp 03:20:17 -!- 13WAA0JYC [~entrix@95-24-16-33.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:20:22 pnathan [~Adium@64.126.142.148] has joined #lisp 03:21:09 jiro [~androirc@s1707030.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:25:08 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 03:26:16 -!- jiro [~androirc@s1707030.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )] 03:26:37 superflit [~superflit@71-33-155-250.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:27:43 yaht3e [~nicholasb@69-92-113-237.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:14 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.64.210.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:37:52 -!- micro` [~micro@www.bway.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:42:47 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:43:48 zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:54 pers [~user@96-25-162-104.gar.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 03:44:33 -!- yaht3e [~nicholasb@69-92-113-237.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Quit: yaht3e] 03:45:30 -!- msponge [~msponge@18.189.103.48] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:46:53 Might anyone suggest a better performing version of FLATTEN-ONCE: (defun flatten-once (list) (reduce #'append list :key #'listify)) ;;; (defun LISTIFY (x) (if (listp x) x (list x))) 03:50:32 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-33-155-250.hlrn.qwest.net] has left #lisp 03:51:59 Quadrescence: minor point: LISTIFY is generally called ENSURE-LIST and is in alexandria. 03:52:09 kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 03:52:38 listify, boolify, keywordify, stringify... :S 03:52:43 I clearly have developed a poor habit. 03:52:55 Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@168.22.19.85] has joined #lisp 03:53:21 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@168.22.19.85] has left #lisp 03:53:28 *sykopomp* associates ENSURE-* with functional APIs for definer macros. 03:54:28 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-210-140.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:24 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:58:11 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 03:58:39 -!- pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:01:03 -!- CrazyEddy 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has joined #lisp 04:59:45 gniourf_gniourf [~Gniourf@vil69-1-82-67-51-185.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 05:00:15 _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has joined #lisp 05:00:42 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-152-127.lns10.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:21 -!- gniourf_gniourf [~Gniourf@vil69-1-82-67-51-185.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 05:03:06 -!- xcv [~xcv@dsl-225-28.hive.is] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:03:36 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-110-118.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:04:31 gniourf_gniourf [~Gniourf@vil69-1-82-67-51-185.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 05:05:23 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA099A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 05:08:16 quek [~ancient@117.102.187.225.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 05:13:25 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:14:48 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 05:15:15 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 05:16:31 *rtoym* needs to find some kind of logo for f2cl.... 05:17:13 _nix001 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has joined #lisp 05:18:20 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:19:03 -!- gniourf_gniourf [~Gniourf@vil69-1-82-67-51-185.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:19:32 -!- katesmith_ [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:27:17 -!- ihji [~user@vpn.fasoo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:29:59 -!- Cloud_ [~cbp@189.227.231.158] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:30:55 -!- Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-91-97.iburst.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:31:15 -!- ihyoyoung [raster@enlightenment2.osuosl.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:34:14 ihyoyoung [raster@enlightenment2.osuosl.org] has joined #lisp 05:41:20 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-vnttwnpevueibcbm] has joined #lisp 05:41:20 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-vnttwnpevueibcbm] has quit [Changing host] 05:41:20 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 05:42:42 happy december y'all 05:46:30 -!- g000001 is now known as g000001_away 05:53:34 -!- kidfoo [~neena@76.73.121.203] has quit [Changing host] 05:53:34 kidfoo [~neena@unaffiliated/neenaoffline] has joined #lisp 05:54:59 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-35.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:55:03 sadly, http://blip.tv/eclm is blocked from where I am. Is there other way to get the videos? 05:59:14 -!- jiro [~androirc@s1707030.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:01:57 hba [~hba@189.229.239.173] has joined #lisp 06:05:17 the island nation of tuvalu has its websites blocked from your country? 06:06:12 *akovalenko* would suspect some workplace "safety" policy first, instead of a country-wide decision 06:06:50 *beslyrus* still claims he was the first person to think of getting (the country of) tuvalu to part with their two-letter domain name 06:07:12 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 06:07:49 akovalenko: depends on the country. where I am now has blocked all sorts of stuff like that due to lese majeste laws among other things. :( 06:11:34 -!- chp [~user@c-68-45-180-238.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:15:07 ihji [~user@vpn.fasoo.com] has joined #lisp 06:20:28 ArmyOfBruce: well, we have a national list of "extremist materials", and some sites are officially blocked when providers cooperate (but it's not done by a central firewall physically, and not all providers hurry to cooperate...) 06:22:27 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 06:22:47 _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has joined #lisp 06:25:59 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-48-226.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:26:19 -!- _nix001 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:30:42 jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-92.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:30:55 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:31:24 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-32-216.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 06:33:04 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 06:34:09 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-byksnweiylgdtpbe] has joined #lisp 06:35:50 -!- stratobacker [~user@c-98-202-137-87.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:37:32 -!- oGMo [~rpav@66.219.59.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:37:58 ISF [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has joined #lisp 06:37:59 oGMo [~rpav@66.219.59.103] has joined #lisp 06:38:20 -!- sty [~quassel@bas2-toronto61-2925080159.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:40:12 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@87.247.7.43] has joined #lisp 06:40:12 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 06:40:12 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 06:40:12 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.7.43] has quit [Changing host] 06:40:12 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 06:40:16 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Client Quit] 06:41:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 06:42:50 -!- pers [~user@96-25-162-104.gar.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:43:47 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 06:44:21 -!- evenson [~evenson@213.33.70.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:44:42 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 06:45:31 Anyone know how to pause gc in sbcl? 06:45:37 evenson [~evenson@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 06:45:54 (sb-sys:without-gcing ) 06:46:47 Spiffy! Thanks! 06:47:02 jiro [~androirc@s1707030.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:47:06 gniourf_gniourf [~Gniourf@2a01:e35:2433:3b90:221:e9ff:fedb:eda6] has joined #lisp 06:48:25 -!- evenson [~evenson@213.33.70.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:52:06 -!- setmeaway [stemearay@119.201.52.190] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:52:53 -!- jiro [~androirc@s1707030.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:54:31 -!- gniourf_gniourf [~Gniourf@2a01:e35:2433:3b90:221:e9ff:fedb:eda6] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 06:58:04 -!- antifuchs [~foobar@50-0-91-119.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 06:58:04 -!- snafuchs is now known as antifuchs 06:59:56 KingNato [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 07:00:26 -!- pnathan [~Adium@64.126.142.148] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:02:57 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.87.217] has joined #lisp 07:02:59 shaobo76 [~allen@222.66.71.118] has joined #lisp 07:03:33 xcv [~xcv@dsl-225-28.hive.is] has joined #lisp 07:07:28 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-7.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:07:33 BlankVerse [~pankajm@117.201.146.197] has joined #lisp 07:07:44 gniourf_gniourf [~Gniourf@2a01:e35:2433:3b90:221:e9ff:fedb:eda6] has joined #lisp 07:07:49 -!- peccu is now known as PECCU 07:07:59 H4ns [55b327fd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.179.39.253] has joined #lisp 07:09:20 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.20.102] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 07:10:01 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has joined #lisp 07:10:40 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-92.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:11:10 pnathan [~Adium@98.145.116.190] has joined #lisp 07:12:41 -!- gniourf_gniourf [~Gniourf@2a01:e35:2433:3b90:221:e9ff:fedb:eda6] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:14:21 setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.190] has joined #lisp 07:14:36 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:20:15 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.87.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:23:41 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.42.114.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:23:52 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-7.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:24:02 gaidal [gaidal@58.62.105.190] has joined #lisp 07:24:08 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:24:38 -!- H4ns [55b327fd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.179.39.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:26:33 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-31-250.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:26:35 var [cbb55d93@gateway/web/freenode/ip.203.181.93.147] has joined #lisp 07:26:37 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@117.201.146.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:27:32 -!- var [cbb55d93@gateway/web/freenode/ip.203.181.93.147] has quit [Client Quit] 07:28:16 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:33:07 there is a google goagent app can easily broke firewall 07:34:28 even such suck GFW ofcouse ,the ultimate way is VPN 07:38:28 BlankVerse [~pankajm@117.201.152.142] has joined #lisp 07:41:12 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 07:43:37 -!- jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:46:17 -!- chenbing [~user@115.205.3.182] has left #lisp 07:46:52 -!- shaobo76 [~allen@222.66.71.118] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:48:03 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-132-115.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:48:41 ayrnieu [~julian@50.15.104.42] has joined #lisp 07:48:45 -!- leo2007 [~leo@120.37.13.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:52:53 nostoi [~nostoi@1.Red-83-50-2.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:53:51 -!- fihi09 [~user@pool-96-224-41-29.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:54:52 nikodemus [~nikodemus@188-67-8-52.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 07:54:55 -!- X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:56:15 -!- kami` is now known as kami 07:58:35 topo____ [~topo@f053044098.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:58:35 -!- topo [~topo@f053044098.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:58:35 -!- topo__ [~topo@f053044098.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:58:36 -!- topo____ is now known as topo 07:58:36 topo___ [~topo@f053044098.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:00:03 aaa__ [cbb55d93@gateway/web/freenode/ip.203.181.93.147] has joined #lisp 08:00:35 H4ns [55b2b94b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.178.185.75] has joined #lisp 08:00:41 -!- PECCU is now known as peccu 08:01:49 chenbing [~user@115.205.3.182] has joined #lisp 08:04:32 -!- quek [~ancient@117.102.187.225.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:04:52 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-207-128.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:08:17 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.111.6] has joined #lisp 08:08:29 jacks- [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has joined #lisp 08:08:30 hello 08:09:07 is this how one would usually skip a couple of values? (multiple-value-bind (_ _ _ a) (values 1 2 3 4) a) 08:09:38 jacks-: you can do that, but you still need to (declare (ignore _)) 08:10:00 plutoid [~pluto@218.206.101.179] has joined #lisp 08:10:05 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:10:06 yes i know. is such a variable called _ by convention? 08:10:09 jacks-: realize that _ is just another symbol 08:10:19 jacks-: no. 08:10:21 yes 08:10:22 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:10:32 h4ns what is it called then? 08:11:01 jacks-: there is no common lisp convention for that. 08:11:45 jacks-: you can also use nth-value 08:12:29 ok, thanks all 08:13:11 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:13:48 leveldoc` [~user@cpe-98-155-198-142.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:13:59 -!- aaa__ [cbb55d93@gateway/web/freenode/ip.203.181.93.147] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:14:00 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:15:01 ok, this is highly likely to be a FAQ and I apologize in advance, but can somebody help me out getting started with slime? 08:15:35 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-129-72.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 08:15:39 leveldoc`: did you install slime with quicklisp? 08:16:12 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:16:50 H4ns: no I think I downloaded it manually... I can call it fine from within emacs, and it's setup right I believe. But... here's the embarrassing part: how do I load a file into the REPL environment? 08:16:59 slime-eval-buffer 08:17:08 M-x slime-eval-buffer, to be precise 08:17:25 C-x C-e will eval a form in the REPL 08:17:26 every time I load the file with C-c C-k, when trying to print a variable, it says "unbound".... 08:17:39 C-c C-k != right? 08:17:47 that is usually because the variable is being declared as a global 08:18:00 Or, rather, being used as such, without a defvar or defparameter decl. 08:18:03 pnathan: yes, that's correct... 08:18:28 it's not a 'slime' error, it's a compiler error/warning 08:18:28 for example, the file only contains this right now: (defparameter *np* 3) 08:19:07 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 08:19:30 C-c C-k 'ing it should make *np* evaluate to 3, unless you have differnt packages in REPL and in the buffer.. 08:19:37 hmm 08:20:41 var [cbb55d93@gateway/web/freenode/ip.203.181.93.147] has joined #lisp 08:20:50 ehu [~ehuels@109.37.207.51] has joined #lisp 08:21:47 valvallo1 [~valvallow@v-182-163-90-125.ub-freebit.net] has joined #lisp 08:21:59 I restarted slime and now it works... don't know what was wrong with it. 08:22:13 sorry for the noise and thanks for the help 08:22:45 -!- valvallo1 [~valvallow@v-182-163-90-125.ub-freebit.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:23:30 ok I am having trouble writing mv-bind that auto ignores _ variable 08:23:35 simon-zhu_ [~simon-zhu@125.116.208.249] has joined #lisp 08:23:46 (defmacro mv-bind (vars values &body body) `(multiple-value-bind ,vars ,values (declare (ignore _)) ,@body)) 08:24:17 if I declare this in jacks package, and it in someother package, it won't work, as it'll declare ignore jacks::_ 08:24:21 how can i handle this? 08:24:27 and use it* 08:24:59 make an m-v-bind that accepts () among variables instead of _ .. 08:25:17 jacks-: you need to export jacks::_ and use that package in your application 08:25:39 jacks-: i'd recommend against that, though. use nth-value instead. 08:26:57 nth-value can replace it only if you need one value though . no way to get _ symbol in the current package within the macro? 08:27:09 without exporting it 08:27:40 jacks-: no. 08:27:48 I could use nil too I guess but _ is more succinct 08:28:15 why do you recommend against exporting _ by the way? 08:28:49 jacks-: i recommend against changing the language on that level. 08:28:50 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:29:14 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:30:55 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:31:02 ccorn [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has joined #lisp 08:33:42 -!- xristos [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:34:06 H4ns: whats? (intern "_" *package*) is perfectly OK within a macro (it doesn't become good solution, but anyway..) 08:34:40 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:34:41 akovalenko: uh. again, you are smarter than me. 08:34:59 no I'm not. I just never been a schemer :)) 08:35:35 akovalenko: neither have i. or was that meant to be an insult? :) 08:36:20 insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 08:36:20 would that be prefered over exporting _ ? 08:36:22 zickzackv [~zickzackv@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:36:36 -!- zickzackv [~zickzackv@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:36:56 Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:36:57 jacks-: I would settle for a kind of "destructuring mvb" that accepts ()/nil as variable name 08:37:13 yes probably best 08:37:31 (m-v-bind (x () y z) ...) ;; like this 08:38:37 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 08:40:06 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 08:40:19 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:41:10 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 08:41:19 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 08:41:36 _schulte_: hi 08:41:40 good morning everyone 08:41:52 -!- simon-zhu_ [~simon-zhu@125.116.208.249] has left #lisp 08:42:05 can format display only last two digits of a number (year)? 2011 -> 11 08:42:29 xristos [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has joined #lisp 08:42:45 -!- xristos is now known as Guest24825 08:43:02 It can [solution omitted to make people just STOP doing it]. 08:43:37 hehe 08:43:59 -!- spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Quit: spacefrogg] 08:44:36 if it's that bad i'll happily skip it 08:45:39 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:46:27 (format t "19~d" (- 2011 1900)) ; 19111 . Works fine! 08:46:55 good morning 08:47:33 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-7.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:47:40 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-152-127.lns10.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:48:21 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:48:39 -!- hba [~hba@189.229.239.173] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:48:55 ayrnieu: and (format t "19~d" (- 2009 1900)) is even greater! 08:48:59 -!- KingNato [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:49:17 *akovalenko* meant something like (- 2009 2000), really 08:49:36 "create another Y2K problem just in a decade" 08:51:10 -!- var [cbb55d93@gateway/web/freenode/ip.203.181.93.147] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:51:50 e-user [e-user@nat/nokia/x-cgeerzrtgxadxhkx] has joined #lisp 08:56:39 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-157-113.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:59:33 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-131-134.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:01:32 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@1.Red-83-50-2.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 09:04:10 MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-152-165.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 09:05:57 what the type of such as :abc? 09:06:30 keyword. also, symbol. 09:07:01 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-227-164.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:07:02 (type-of :abc) => KEYWORD 09:07:19 entrix [~entrix@95-24-111-188.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 09:08:15 chenbing: http://l1sp.org/cl/keyword may be useful 09:08:46 I just a little strange REPL can print it 09:10:03 the link above has an explanation: when that ABC symbol is interned, something equivalent to (defconstant keyword::abc 'keyword::abc) happens automatically 09:11:34 (assuming that the real surprise is its self-evaluating behavior, not printing...) 09:11:52 gah, we're still talking about keywords? 09:12:34 Kryztof: if you weren't reading for some time... it's not a continuation of /that/ discussion, it's just something in the air.. 09:14:45 *phew* :-) 09:15:16 maybe treat it as read-macro 09:16:42 -!- lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:18:14 urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-203-98.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 09:19:58 (keywordp :abc) ;=>T (constantp :abc);=>T (boundp :abc) ;=>T :-) 09:20:51 how do I get current .lisp files' directory? 09:20:57 is it possible to have a "local special variable"? I.e. i only local functions need that special variable, so i don't really want to use defvar if i can avoid it without trickery. 09:21:13 jacks-: *compile-file-pathname* or *load-pathname* 09:21:19 thanks 09:21:36 (defun foo () (declare (special *foo*)) ...stuff that uses *foo*) 09:21:43 jacks-: note that *load-pathname* might not be right if compiling to a different directory. 09:22:15 nikodemus: that i tried, but if use (let ((*foo* ...)) later on, the compiler tells me that the variable is unused. 09:22:20 nikodemus: could be a compiler problem. 09:22:28 nikodemus: (acl here) 09:22:43 no wait, i'm wrong 09:22:58 -!- pnathan [~Adium@98.145.116.190] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:23:42 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-31-250.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:25:22 (defun foo () (flet ((test () (declare (special *foo*)) *foo*)) (let ((*foo* 42)) (declare (special *foo*)) (test)))) ; annoingly you have to declare it at both binding and use site 09:25:49 ah. ok. annoying, but doable. thanks! 09:26:27 leo2007 [~leo@120.37.13.145] has joined #lisp 09:27:05 gah! annoyingly, as i am rebinding based on the old value, i need to declare it three times. defvar it is 09:27:44 (declaim (special *foo*)) even 09:28:16 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:30:16 kpreid [~kpreid@Riley14.price.clarkson.edu] has joined #lisp 09:32:30 KingNato [~patno@2.71.226.125.mobile.tre.se] has joined #lisp 09:37:42 -!- leveldoc` [~user@cpe-98-155-198-142.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:37:44 nikodemus: your bargraphs should be plotted on a log scale! 09:37:48 -!- KingNato [~patno@2.71.226.125.mobile.tre.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:38:08 -!- Axioplase_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Quit: brb] 09:38:12 KingNato [~patno@2.71.226.125.mobile.tre.se] has joined #lisp 09:38:32 Axioplase [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 09:39:08 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:39:16 eclaesson [~EClaesson@c-7882e555.013-19-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 09:39:31 -!- KingNato [~patno@2.71.226.125.mobile.tre.se] has quit [Client Quit] 09:40:52 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.111.6] has quit [Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)] 09:41:18 Hi, i'm trying to write a setlistq macro, which should work like setq, but for a list of variables. (setlistq (a b c) 3) should set a, b and c to 3. But i', having trouble referencing to the variables passed in the list. Any hints? 09:42:21 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 09:43:26 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-kcxvsepvlfwcmuxp] has joined #lisp 09:43:44 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:44:23 eclaesson: it would be helpful to know what kind of "trouble" you have. maybe post your code to paste.lisp.org and let us look at it. 09:44:43 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-200-174.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:44:48 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-131-134.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:45:11 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-200-174.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:45:19 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-200-174.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:46:22 will be a goodie for lisp ? python-like auto-indent 09:46:43 kilon [~kilon@adsl-23.46.190.52.tellas.gr] has joined #lisp 09:46:52 kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 09:47:09 chenbing: emacs does all the indenting that i need. 09:47:50 -!- jjc [~jjc@50-46-182-239.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:51:44 when declaring CLOS accessors, for example accessor for an age slot for a person class, do you name it person-age or just age? 09:53:05 H4ns: Solved it myself, so nevermind :) 09:53:12 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.111.6] has joined #lisp 09:53:15 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-152-165.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:53:25 -!- jrockway [~jrockway@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fe93:50b0] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:53:55 jacks-: an interesting article on that topic: http://cybertiggyr.com/80-closminded/ 09:53:55 jacks-: there's also age-of 09:54:14 jrockway [~jrockway@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fe93:50b0] has joined #lisp 09:55:02 jacks-: i still use person-age, but it sucks. age-of has some following. 09:56:07 lately i use the -of accessors for just accessing the slot; generally generic functions should form a protocol, and those would be named differently 09:56:46 -!- plutoid [~pluto@218.206.101.179] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:59:47 -!- H4ns [55b2b94b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.178.185.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:59:49 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.37.207.51] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:01:00 MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-28-146.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 10:01:11 thanks. so no one uses just age? :). reading that link now 10:01:41 morning lisp wizards 10:03:39 Kryztof: i do have a logscale option 10:05:12 C-x 4 . display the symbol in another buffer ,why current buffer moves? 10:05:26 jacks-: I also use -of and am happy with it 10:06:11 is -of suppose to distinguish between plain slot accessor and a more complex method? 10:06:37 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@digital.sanctuary.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:06:58 jacks-: i use it for plain accessors only 10:07:30 dlowe [~dlowe@digital.sanctuary.org] has joined #lisp 10:07:38 *akovalenko* uses something like person-age if that "AGE" thing is ambigious enough for name clash with something entirely unrelated in the same package. Otherwise, it's just AGE (and I prefer to rename things and make this possible when I can do it). 10:08:12 or how to quickback after a M-.? 10:08:19 M-, 10:08:37 ehu [~ehuels@109.37.207.51] has joined #lisp 10:08:57 can multi-buffers M-. M-,? 10:09:15 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 10:09:24 yep (that's how I use them most of the time). 10:09:38 great~~ 10:14:23 Kryztof: http://random-state.net/files/microbench-2011-11-29-log.html 10:14:29 H4ns [55b2b94b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.178.185.75] has joined #lisp 10:14:35 -!- backspac3 [~jt@S010600212f37ae27.no.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:14:55 H4ns` [~hans@e178185075.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:15:14 backspac3 [~jt@S010600212f37ae27.no.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 10:15:37 -!- H4ns [55b2b94b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.178.185.75] has quit [Disconnected by services] 10:16:05 -!- H4ns` is now known as H4ns 10:18:31 daniel [~daniel@p5B3262C6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:19:43 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.12.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:20:25 -!- daniel___ [~daniel@p5B32692B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:20:49 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:22:12 Morning everybody 10:24:30 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-207-128.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:24:36 jacks-: I use plain 'age' 10:24:56 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-28-146.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:26:23 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-88-186.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:27:38 -!- bhaskara [~user@gw.willowgarage.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:27:47 KingNato [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 10:28:04 nikodemus: better. Now with the hilarious scales less hilarious and all-the-same? 10:28:18 1000/200/40/8/1.6 would be acceptable 10:32:41 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:32:51 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 10:34:27 aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 10:35:00 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:36:06 pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has joined #lisp 10:39:42 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-210-140.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:41:25 shaobo76 [~allen@222.66.71.118] has joined #lisp 10:41:34 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-68-139.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 10:42:43 yaht3e [~nicholasb@69-92-113-237.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #lisp 10:44:04 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:44:13 fixed the scaling the be consistent, but can't do much about the labeled values 10:44:35 (turns out :min 0 doesn't do the right thing) 10:47:20 osa1 [~sinan@141.196.116.135] has joined #lisp 10:50:12 spacefrogg_ [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 10:52:33 feh, and now i generated it with a few benchmarks missing. /me redoes again 10:52:50 Karl_H [~Karl_H@f048014142.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:53:02 -!- eclaesson [~EClaesson@c-7882e555.013-19-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: "irssi v0.8.15"] 10:55:33 DamienCassou [~cassou@2001:638:807:20d:7a84:3cff:fe05:3a9d] has joined #lisp 10:55:43 hi 10:56:11 I wouldn't expect :min 0 to DTRT on a log scale 10:57:45 pdo [~pdo@31.221.13.71] has joined #lisp 10:57:50 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 10:58:55 oh, duh :) 11:00:31 -!- nikodemus_ [~nikodemus@cs181056239.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:02:10 lbc [~quassel@h198.natout.aau.dk] has joined #lisp 11:02:21 -!- lbc [~quassel@h198.natout.aau.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:02:28 bwright [~bwright@c122-106-254-100.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 11:02:44 oh well. One thing you can see on the logscale is that the lisps left-associate addition 11:02:50 mvilleneuve same here 11:03:01 -!- jacks- [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:03:28 -!- DamienCassou [~cassou@2001:638:807:20d:7a84:3cff:fe05:3a9d] has left #lisp 11:03:44 lbc [~quassel@h198.natout.aau.dk] has joined #lisp 11:05:33 Kryztof: how so? 11:05:52 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-161-147.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:06:56 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-200-174.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:07:16 yaht3e_ [~nicholasb@69-92-113-237.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #lisp 11:08:06 -!- yaht3e [~nicholasb@69-92-113-237.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:08:07 -!- yaht3e_ is now known as yaht3e 11:08:59 because +bbf performs the same as +bbb and +fbb performs like +fbf 11:09:50 -!- ihji [~user@vpn.fasoo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:12:15 -!- Karl_H [~Karl_H@f048014142.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #lisp 11:12:36 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 11:13:54 -!- yaht3e [~nicholasb@69-92-113-237.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Quit: yaht3e] 11:13:54 -!- waveman [~tim@203-214-39-56.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:13:56 ahinki_ [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 11:14:29 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:14:41 -!- ahinki_ is now known as ahinki 11:19:29 Kryztof: bbf means (+ big big) => fix 11:19:37 etc 11:19:47 oh 11:20:15 shame. My hypothesis was prettier 11:20:32 cd = complex double, cs = complex single, cf = complex fixnum 11:20:46 -!- backspac3 [~jt@S010600212f37ae27.no.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:21:37 backspac3 [~jt@S010600212f37ae27.no.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 11:22:26 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:22:34 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 11:22:38 i found it fascinating how profound an effect the constant loading patch makes across the board -- pretty much everything involving fp is improved. remains to be seen if it has a similar effect on real code... 11:29:52 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:32:29 xan_ [~xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 11:34:20 -!- shaobo76 [~allen@222.66.71.118] has left #lisp 11:37:21 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.156.141] has joined #lisp 11:38:33 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:39:07 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@77.109.98.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:39:16 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 11:39:57 theBlackDragon [~dragon@77.109.98.120] has joined #lisp 11:41:15 nikodemus: what does the constant loading patch entail? 11:42:29 -!- kilon [~kilon@adsl-23.46.190.52.tellas.gr] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 11:44:09 gensym` [~user@dslc-082-082-099-088.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:44:35 -!- yroeht [~yroeht@x.yroeht.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:45:30 on a non-related note: i want to print stuff through format and i want it to be indented, basically some form of nested printing. is it possible to write something of the likes of ~& and ~% that will add a number of spaces as well? or is there, perhaps, some other idiom that's commonly used for this in lisp? 11:46:17 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-203-98.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:47:22 pprint-logical-block, which in format is ~< ~:> I think 11:48:49 madnificent: https://github.com/nikodemus/SBCL/commit/c96bea69040ee5bffab2c49dde4fd767528da5a1 11:48:50 Kryztof: thanks, searching for it now :) 11:51:48 (format nil "~@<~3I~_~S~:@>" (make-list 100)) 11:52:32 nikodemus: fp probably doesn't stand for what i thought it did. is it better style to use multiple setf statemenst for multiple assignments? 11:52:39 yroeht [~yroeht@x.yroeht.eu] has joined #lisp 11:52:54 juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 11:53:48 madnificent: i don't follow you at all 11:54:02 fp = floating point in this context 11:54:39 are you asking the merits of (setf a b c d) vs (setf a b) (setf c d)? 11:56:46 i don't think there's an infallible rule. "whatever is clearest in the context". if everything lines up prettily when you use multiple assignements in a single setf, there's little reason not to. if, however, things become visually cluttered... then it's better to split 11:56:51 a->b, c->d ? 11:59:42 H4ns: hunchentoot 1.2.2 breaks weblocks. but it seems like it was already broken, anyway. i emailed their list. 12:00:22 nikodemus: about setf: right. in the context of floating points i do see it. i'm curious to the effects of it :) 12:00:41 radish [~ircuser@115.249.121.210] has joined #lisp 12:01:27 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 12:02:03 msponge [~msponge@31-34-202.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 12:04:04 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 12:04:05 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@87.247.9.52] has joined #lisp 12:06:53 _nix001 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has joined #lisp 12:07:10 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:07:16 homie: yes. 12:07:20 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 12:10:17 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-132-115.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:11:28 -!- _nix001 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:11:32 _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has joined #lisp 12:13:34 rvrebane [~rvrebane@valjapaas.vkhk.ee] has joined #lisp 12:15:58 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:16:43 benkard [~benkard@002608dc9535.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 12:18:02 wolfpython [~wolf@180.111.140.203] has joined #lisp 12:23:36 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 12:28:08 leyyer_su [~chatzilla@222.209.137.254] has joined #lisp 12:30:56 H4ns: oops, thanks! was it *default-handler* that they're now missing? 12:32:23 why is prolog-syntax.lisp in mcclim still not fixed ? 12:34:19 erm, i mean climacs 12:34:28 -!- Vutral [~ss@2a01:198:35a::1] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:36:07 Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 12:36:12 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:38:55 i still have to escape [] and {} in the source of prolog-syntax.lisp, in order to get it loaded..... 12:39:14 homie: did you submit a fix and it was not incorporated? 12:40:05 no i didn't submit a patch, i'm not a maintainer, however i thought maintainers maybe lurking in this channel would have noticed it ..... 12:40:39 homie: so the answer to your question most likely is "because nobody cared enough to fix it". maybe you want to fix it and submit the patch? 12:42:01 -!- peccu is now known as PECCU 12:43:52 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has left #lisp 12:44:14 -!- benkard [~benkard@002608dc9535.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: benkard] 12:47:06 KingNato_ [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 12:47:06 -!- KingNato [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:47:06 -!- KingNato_ is now known as KingNato 12:47:25 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:47:43 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:53:40 -!- KingNato [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:54:36 KingNato [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 12:56:18 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host133-226-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:58:10 -!- nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:58:41 Posterdati [~tapioca@host133-226-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:00:09 (1+ 2) vs (+ 1 2),what's the diffirence? 13:00:26 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 13:01:00 chenbing: isn't it obvious? 13:01:04 -!- leyyer_su [~chatzilla@222.209.137.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:01:31 leyyer_su [~chatzilla@222.209.137.254] has joined #lisp 13:01:45 I meet this kind of case first time .so .. 13:02:04 chenbing: which case? (+ 1 2)? 13:02:10 (1+ 2) 13:02:24 ski_ [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:02:30 1+ is a function. so is + 13:02:30 chenbing: 1+ is just a function name. 13:03:34 Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:04:20 o~~ :-) 13:04:48 is o~~ supposed to be an emoticon for a spermatozoid? 13:05:48 It's my Suddenly realized... 13:05:52 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 13:06:15 it looks like a FORMAT control string.. 13:06:37 ~{~:*~S~} ;; is it a smiley? 13:07:10 *nikodemus* is fascinated by the erosion of the culture of license & copyright headers on github 13:08:35 gko [gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:10:49 nikodemus: does it have to be on the top of each file, or do you mean the lack of the name of a license? or do you expect the license to be included as a source-file? i probably do it wrong. 13:13:06 chenbing: by the way, you should probably read the spec more. if you checked the documentation of 1+, you'd see how it relates to + 13:15:21 yes,C-c C-d d  13:16:33 madnificent: if you want my /preference/, it's a header in each file and defsystem :license specifying the name, plus a separate LICENSE or COPYING file 13:16:38 chenbing: rathe C-c C-d h 13:16:41 *rather 13:17:49 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@117.201.152.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:17:56 when the header is in each file, i (as a reader) never need to look for it, plus it won't get lost even if files are copied, and i won't accidentally spend too much time reading at code with an unsuitable license 13:17:57 well, now i sent the edited file to climacs-devel 13:18:07 defsystem :license is important metadata 13:18:28 homie: that's the spirit! 13:19:04 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 13:19:20 by the way C-c C-d h call lynx in xterm with back background ,can u adjust it? 13:19:35 H4ns: yes 13:19:41 McRibbit [~user@zaza9.ida.liu.se] has joined #lisp 13:19:43 LICENSE/COPYING file makes the intention clear even if a file is accidentally missing the header -- and makes it easy to add the header to new files via C-x i 13:19:57 black 13:19:58 H4ns: http://groups.google.com/group/weblocks/browse_thread/thread/3ccd53457848a8f4 13:20:40 chenbing: M-x customize-group RET browse-url RET 13:21:02 Xach: ok, so it has been broken before, but 1.2.2 made the breakage into a compile error. 13:21:05 kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 13:21:48 Xach: i guess that the weblocks team - if it exists - has to act. 13:22:00 nikodemus: so far, i only adhere to the defsystem :license clause of your preference. perhaps i should alter that. i don't particularly like to have a header in each file. 13:22:13 H4ns: yeah. which is good. i do not have a good impression of the vitality of weblocks at this point, at least as a publicly developed project. 13:22:30 -!- am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.46] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:24:02 -!- pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:25:49 Diaoer [~Diaoer@116.227.34.23] has joined #lisp 13:26:04 -!- Diaoer [~Diaoer@116.227.34.23] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 13:26:11 long live UCW! 13:26:26 what is UCW ? 13:26:41 Uncommon Web 13:26:45 oh 13:27:37 the question itself (what is UCW?) should answer the question 13:28:03 i changed the background to +black+ and foreground to +yellow+ for clim-listener, but somehow it's prompts:> char is yellow too, don't know why that happens.... 13:28:11 jdz: same for "What is Lisp?" ? 13:28:14 i have tried using weblocks and ucw, failed in both cases 13:28:26 felideon: pretty similar, yes 13:28:29 i mean only the > is yellow 13:28:29 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:29:50 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-173-168.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:31:06 benkard [~benkard@2001:4ca0:0:f208:982e:6206:7615:392a] has joined #lisp 13:31:14 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:34:24 Do C programmers on Linux write their own with-output-to-string, and/or is this found in standard library? 13:35:02 chrnybo``: the c standard library does not have something like it. c++ does. 13:36:01 madnificent: if nothing else you /really/ should have the LICENSE file 13:36:20 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-173-168.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Client Quit] 13:36:26 :license "TLA" is too weak a statement 13:36:42 its contents should be "please refer to the LICENCE file" 13:37:03 Kryztof: header or :license? 13:37:05 KingNato_ [~patno@2.71.226.125.mobile.tre.se] has joined #lisp 13:37:07 -!- KingNato_ [~patno@2.71.226.125.mobile.tre.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:37:09 nikodemus: for BSD and MIT i've accepted it as is. but you are right 13:37:10 chrnybo``: man snprintf 13:37:11 -!- gko [gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:37:38 Ralith: that is not *too* much like a string stream. 13:37:42 gko [gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:37:50 Xach: it's about as close as you can get within standard C, though. 13:38:30 H4ns: thanks. 13:38:49 nikodemus: don't mind me, I'm being silly 13:38:52 felideon: on that note, it would be nice if some trivial example would be implemented in various lisp web frameworks, just to see how each of the frameworks look at first glance. 13:39:16 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-126-136.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 13:39:24 you could call it "the arc challenge" 13:40:54 -!- KingNato [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:41:34 Ralith: Yeah, but as a beginner, I find i scary to keep track of a pointer to the start of the allocated buffer, another to where I should write, how much is left of the buffer, reallocating in case vsnprintf detects that I'm about to write past the buffer, and whatever I haven't yet thought of. Feel free to tell me to stick to higher level languages. ;) 13:41:52 chrnybo``: C is scary. 13:41:53 sacho [~sacho@92-247-208-87.spectrumnet.bg] has joined #lisp 13:42:04 chrnybo``: c++ std::ostringstream 13:42:31 chrnybo``: why do you want to restrict yourself to c? 13:42:35 chrnybo``: of course, you could fairly easily write a string builder library to simplify all that 13:42:49 but it would be a waste of time if you don't absolutely need to use C. 13:43:16 chrnybo``: When in New Jersey, do as New Jerseyans do 13:43:56 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 13:45:02 I am using paredit in slime's repl, but it breaks the search in history with M-n or M-p caused by the closing bracket. Has/knows anybody a workaround for this behavior? 13:45:25 hello folks 13:45:26 Xach, use standard ML of New Jersey :P 13:46:31 H4ns: Need to use it for the foreseeable future, I think. The data source of our CL systems are accessed through a database abstraction layer written in C. Primarily to talk to Oracle, and it has later ween extended to talk to middleware with web frontends. One of these frontends barfs when we GET with a 8000 character long querystring, so I want to translate it to use POST with a content-length header. Which leads to a translation 13:46:31 of a zillion printf to socket into some kind of append operation so I can count the length of the output prior to writing it to the web server. 13:46:38 nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:45 G'morning all. 13:46:51 hi nyef 13:47:14 chrnybo``: but that should not stop you from using c++ 13:47:19 so i have a question about something that i seem to encounter frequently, if that's alright. i often seem to encounter `illegal :utf-8 character starting at byte position n' errors in sbcl. i assume i'm not doing something i need to be doing 13:47:41 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:47:46 in this newest case, it's using trivial-ldap to interact with an active directory installation, and it shouts at me when doing a search 13:47:50 gensym`: I've just rebound almost everything in an unordered way :) Going to submit something acceptable to make SLIME play nice with paredit (another known problem is backward-delete-char-untabify, and yet another is inf-lisp stealing key bindings when autoloaded after SLIME) 13:48:01 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 13:48:20 dsp_: How is the text data in the directory encoded? 13:48:52 lord knows. i'm not an AD operator. if i find out, is there a way to set the encoding in SBCL to correctly match it? 13:49:56 i had thought it was (setf SB-IMPL::*DEFAULT-EXTERNAL-FORMAT* :latin1) or something similar, but it was a wild guess 13:50:03 akovalenko, gensym: iirc there's snippet in paredit header comment for slime-repl integration 13:50:12 SBCL supports many external formats, but you have to know which one is needed 13:50:18 -!- duomo [~duomo@cpe-69-204-168-90.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 13:50:29 -!- leyyer_su [~chatzilla@222.209.137.254] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 8.0.1/20111120135848]] 13:50:32 nikodemus: will have a look at it 13:50:39 so, i was setf'ing on the correct thing, but with an incorrect value probably? good to know 13:50:44 Diaoer [~Diaoer@116.227.34.23] has joined #lisp 13:50:47 dsp_: Not necessarily. 13:50:52 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-076-182-089-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:51:28 -!- Diaoer [~Diaoer@116.227.34.23] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 13:51:37 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-173-168.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:51:45 dsp_: pass :external-format to OPEN, WITH-OPEN-FILE, COMPILE-FILE, LOAD, or SOCKET-MAKE-STREAM 13:51:56 edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 13:52:03 ah, i'm working from within slime at the REPL 13:52:09 i suppose i could open a file 13:52:13 some packages expect to be able to read mixed binary and ascii data /without/ bivalent streams, just by "decoding back" characters as if they were latin1. If it's the case for that ldap client, it should be fixed, not catered to (though :latin1 may help). 13:52:31 Diaoer [~Diaoer@116.227.34.23] has joined #lisp 13:52:49 ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:52:52 dsp_: where is that data coming from that you get the error on? 13:52:55 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-173-168.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:53:42 some company Windows Server 2003 AD resource 13:54:31 -!- Diaoer [~Diaoer@116.227.34.23] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 13:55:17 it seems like it should be utf-8, so scratching my head a bit. i really don't know enough about this though, heh. 13:55:27 Diaoer [~Diaoer@116.227.34.23] has joined #lisp 13:56:24 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-173-168.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:56:35 -!- lusory [~bart@bb115-66-195-54.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:57:24 -!- Diaoer [~Diaoer@116.227.34.23] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 13:57:43 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-173-168.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:00:39 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@242.Red-88-24-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:37 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA099A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:05:09 sacho_ [~sacho@92-247-208-87.spectrumnet.bg] has joined #lisp 14:05:20 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:05:59 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-7.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:06:35 dsp_: i meant, how does that data come into lisp? 14:06:39 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-88-186.iburst.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:06:47 Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:17 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:18 is the decoding happening on streams or are those foreign strings that are being decoded? 14:07:42 if the latter, you need to specify the foreign external format correctly 14:08:00 (c-string :external-format ) in the alien definition 14:08:10 -!- sacho [~sacho@92-247-208-87.spectrumnet.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:08:44 well, just checked, AD supports LDAPv3 which should spit out UTF-8 uniformly IIRC 14:09:00 i'll just dive into trivial-ldap and have a look 14:10:27 evenson [~evenson@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 14:10:27 drake01 [~drake01@59.178.140.111] has joined #lisp 14:10:38 -!- drake01 [~drake01@59.178.140.111] has quit [Changing host] 14:10:38 drake01 [~drake01@unaffiliated/drake01] has joined #lisp 14:12:34 drdo [~user@2001:690:2100:1b:1e65:9dff:fe64:8b4b] has joined #lisp 14:12:48 such an encouraging name 14:12:50 easyE [aI8i76D8ZT@panix2.panix.com] has joined #lisp 14:12:55 :) 14:13:16 it's pure lisp, so not "foreign strings", it that means stuff produced by external c code 14:14:58 the search method uses send-message and receive-message, which work on streams 14:16:33 it seems to be using sb-ext:octets-to-string with an :external-format of :utf-8 -- think this is correct, too 14:16:42 so, feeling a bit out of my depth :( 14:17:37 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@242.Red-88-24-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 14:18:26 dsp_: so you're getting junk bytes in your utf8, or it isn't really utf8 14:19:07 trivial-ldap has (define-constant +ldap-version+ #x03 "LDAP version 3.") -- ldapv3 should only return utf-8 14:19:28 so i suspect something is very wrong, somewhere :) 14:19:33 my bet's on AD 14:20:12 if it's not something you can fix, you can work around by telling sbcl to replace the junk bytes with something else 14:20:46 dsp_: What indicates to you that ldapv3 should only return utf-8? 14:21:24 maybe i've misread it, then 14:21:38 "Version 3 also differs from version 2 in that it uses UTF-8 to encode its strings" 14:21:39 wtf, i can't sent email to climacs-devel ? 14:21:45 dsp_: Where's that? 14:22:04 http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2253.txt 14:22:50 dsp_: notice it mentions only strings, not the rest of the data... 14:23:05 the protocol is probably binary. 14:23:51 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 14:23:56 teggi [~teggi@123.20.58.106] has joined #lisp 14:24:01 right, of course. this error would only be produced during a conversion to string, right? 14:24:15 i'm wondering why it would do that to binary protocol parts 14:24:45 the only thing one would want to convert to UTF-8 strings would be strings, i think 14:25:21 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:25:29 possibly the server doesn't validate its inputs? so someone feeding, say latin1, there would give you latin1 later? (i know next to nothing of ldap, so excuse me if this is nonsense) 14:25:35 Adlai [~adlai@46-116-123-39.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 14:25:37 -!- Adlai [~adlai@46-116-123-39.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Changing host] 14:25:37 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:27:03 i know next to nothing of ldap, either :) 14:28:54 my search is a very simple test, just (ldap:search *ldap* "(givenName=Dominic)") from the REPL, and SBCL works with UTF-8 as is on my system I believe, so i'd be feeding in that. if it's saved on the server in some other format somehow then your point would be valid, but i have no way of really checking 14:29:37 does the server have other client that may be feeding it junk? 14:29:44 clients, even 14:29:49 goodness knows. anyone in the company, i suppose 14:30:39 backtrace could give us some ideas, traffic dump could help it 14:31:09 dsp_: output from command-line ldapsearch for same query might be interesting too 14:32:02 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-173-168.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:32:05 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:32:17 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:33:32 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-173-168.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:35:20 jjc [~jjc@50-46-182-239.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:22 -!- radish [~ircuser@115.249.121.210] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 14:39:26 our very own lichtblau's ldapvi might be fun to play with. "fun". ha 14:40:53 perhaps. trying to wrap my haed around ldapsearch right now -- even logging in is proving challenging to someone that's tried to avoid AD and LDAP like the plague 14:41:19 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [] 14:41:35 Start with error message and backtrace. 14:42:01 well, we heard enough to know the message. Backtrace? 14:42:35 I wish to thank the people who got mad a few evenings ago arguing about what's XML and what's not (especially TREC format) and helping me out passing my last exam. In particular I recall H4ns, Xach, _schulte_, I hope those who I forgot won't get angry :D 14:42:52 -!- backspac3 [~jt@S010600212f37ae27.no.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:43:02 backspac3 [~jt@S010600212f37ae27.no.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:03 -!- p8m [~dmm@64.15.82.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:43:09 dsp_: i found ldap and its tools hard to use most of the time. good luck. 14:43:14 just Why Average Gamers Using Linux Write 10 times Better Bug Reports than CL programmers?.. 14:43:33 http://paste.lisp.org/display/126214 I hope this does not contain anything sensitive... 14:43:58 -!- benkard [~benkard@2001:4ca0:0:f208:982e:6206:7615:392a] has quit [Quit: benkard] 14:44:03 it also does not look too useful, but maybe a wizard can help 14:44:20 Blkt: congratulations on the exam front! 14:44:29 Adlai` [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:44:58 p8m [~dmm@64.15.82.28] has joined #lisp 14:45:50 dsp_: can you evaluate (trace trivial-ldap::read-string trivial-ldap::read-integer trivial-ldap::read-length) and rerun it? 14:46:18 (there may be some other useful things to trace, of course..) 14:47:15 aha, so it is decoding things nicely, up to a point 14:47:45 now i wonder how to get my terminal to hold more data... 14:48:11 perhaps i will try in emacs 14:48:19 that is a very good way to make it easy to save data 14:48:44 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:48:56 -!- rvrebane [~rvrebane@valjapaas.vkhk.ee] has quit [Quit: time to go..] 14:49:09 looks like it fails to parse the message as such, not just some weird string within.. 14:51:09 looking through the trace, it appears to contain the information i wanted to find, and has decoded it 14:51:30 newcup [newcup@peruna.fi] has joined #lisp 14:51:49 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-49-8.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:52:22 the bottom of the trace is the relevant portion, right? 14:53:04 well, probably. Could you add trace output to your paste? 14:55:19 and the next good candidate for tracing may be TRIVIAL-LDAP::RESPONSE (I hope to see the whole raw message there..) 14:57:13 akovalenko: i have sent you a privmsg regarding this, so i know where to snip -- hope you don't mind 14:59:07 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:59:10 DamienCassou [~cassou@2001:638:807:20d:7a84:3cff:fe05:3a9d] has joined #lisp 14:59:33 hi 14:59:57 inside a macro, I have a list of variables, a list of values, and a list of expressions 15:00:04 benkard [~benkard@002608dc9535.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:00:31 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-byksnweiylgdtpbe] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:00:44 I would like to evaluate each expression with variables bound to values 15:01:03 (let ,(mapcar 'list variables values) ,@expressions) 15:01:06 `(let ,(mapcar 'list variables values) ,@expressions) 15:01:55 this is what I tried but it didn't work. I will try again now that I know it should work 15:01:58 How can I make slime not report the compilation as failed when it just has warnings? 15:02:04 pjb: thank you 15:02:26 -!- gensym` [~user@dslc-082-082-099-088.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:02:27 McRibbit: fix the warnings 15:02:47 That is the easiest way I know. 15:02:51 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:03:28 :D I get asked if I should load the fasl, even if compilation failed 15:03:47 McRibbit: doesn't seem like a good idea to me. 15:03:53 ok 15:04:01 -!- DamienCassou [~cassou@2001:638:807:20d:7a84:3cff:fe05:3a9d] has left #lisp 15:04:43 -!- wolfpython [~wolf@180.111.140.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 259 seconds] 15:06:37 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@digital.sanctuary.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:08:33 dlowe [~dlowe@digital.sanctuary.org] has joined #lisp 15:09:39 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-173-168.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:09:55 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-129-72.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:54 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-176-111.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:11:09 pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has joined #lisp 15:11:24 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:11:28 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:11:35 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.156.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:12:37 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:14:43 BlankVerse [~pankajm@117.197.246.148] has joined #lisp 15:14:59 cyrillos [~cyrill@swsoft-msk-nat.sw.ru] has joined #lisp 15:15:09 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:16:18 -!- ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:24:12 benkard_ [~benkard@2001:4ca0:0:f208:35dd:ef04:2c66:94e2] has joined #lisp 15:25:59 pnathan [~Adium@98.145.116.190] has joined #lisp 15:26:37 -!- benkard [~benkard@002608dc9535.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:26:38 -!- benkard_ is now known as benkard 15:27:22 OK, emailed trivial-ldap author with detailed bug information. thanks everyone for your help 15:28:18 hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:28:27 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:28:48 Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:30:28 [sharing so it's archived] it was a response containing GUID with 16 raw octets, erroneously decoded as utf-8 string 15:30:32 -!- benkard [~benkard@2001:4ca0:0:f208:35dd:ef04:2c66:94e2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:30:51 benkard [~benkard@2001:4ca0:0:f208:35dd:ef04:2c66:94e2] has joined #lisp 15:30:56 -!- parabolize [~gyro@c-75-71-247-61.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:31:05 ah yes, good idea re sharing, as this is logged 15:31:28 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 15:31:31 as I haven't seen how it was tagged, the right thing to do is unobvious. 15:31:52 yeah. i'll have to look into it further if the author doesn't respond. hometime soon though. long day at the office :) 15:33:03 parabolize [~gyro@c-75-71-247-61.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:17 KingNato [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 15:33:35 -!- PECCU is now known as peccu 15:34:01 DamienCassou [~cassou@2001:638:807:20d:7a84:3cff:fe05:3a9d] has joined #lisp 15:34:51 -!- xcv [~xcv@dsl-225-28.hive.is] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:34:53 -!- drake01 [~drake01@unaffiliated/drake01] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:35:05 pjb: your solution only works if the variables and values are known at compile time, right? This is not the case for me 15:36:39 (eval `(let ,(mapcar 'list vars values) ,expression)) ;; if it's not about compile-time code transformation, whether it's inside a macro is irrelevant 15:36:58 waltwhite [~waltwhite@113-9-190-109.dsl.ovh.fr] has joined #lisp 15:37:04 DamienCassou: have a look at prog ; but it creates dynamic bindings. 15:37:10 *progv 15:37:27 Yes. 15:38:29 without (declare (special ,@vars)) pasted into code, progv + eval is likely to work, but not guaranteed... 15:40:04 pjb: akovalenko: thanks, I will have a look 15:40:49 gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-24-216-238.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:55 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-35-219-5.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:45:01 hakzsam_ [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:01 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:46:06 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 9.0/20111122192043]] 15:48:07 DamienCassou: another solution is to wrap the expressions in a lambda form, and to coerce or compile it: (apply (compile nil `(lambda ,variables ,@expressions)) values) 15:49:10 pjb: I will try all of these, thank you 15:49:35 *akovalenko* likes the last solution for every reason, except that &key &rest are possible variable names... 15:50:19 well, you could use temporary parameter names and insert a let. 15:50:27 akovalenko: I don't really care about corner cases, its just for slides 15:51:09 I mean, it's not the point of the slides to be perfect 15:51:14 I just want to show an idea 15:51:25 *Xach* hopes no impressionable minds will be damaged 15:51:43 xcv [~xcv@dsl-225-28.hive.is] has joined #lisp 15:51:54 okay, okay (as I don't normally understand what the point of any slides /is/, no objections here) 15:53:05 -!- aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:54:07 akovalenko: sometimes people put nice pictures on them 15:54:16 akovalenko: or even funny 15:54:30 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.20.58.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:54:55 I'm much more verbal than visual, so funny picture is the maximum of what I can really understand :) 15:57:49 btw, I decided to look at ECLM videos today, hoping to see some real live lispers... most of the time, the light from the damn slides makes every other detail in the videos fade to black. 15:58:29 akovalenko: they do that on purpose, so that you attend the next ECLM 15:58:31 ThomasH [4b1349ad@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 15:58:41 Greetings lispers. 15:58:48 gah. what is viewvc.cgi and why does it clog up common-lisp.net? 15:59:08 viewvc is something like a web interface to CVS 15:59:18 (or to CVS and something else) 15:59:35 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-129-72.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:59:37 (yes, some people still use CVS). 15:59:39 seems like someone is DoSing us with that. 15:59:44 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@swsoft-msk-nat.sw.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:59:49 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-129-72.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:07 -!- Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:00:18 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@242.Red-88-24-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:03 teggi_ [~teggi@123.20.50.48] has joined #lisp 16:01:20 -!- teggi_ is now known as teggi 16:01:23 Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:47 Interesting, I'm imagining the associated bragging. "I just DoS'd common-lisp.net!", "Who?" 16:02:11 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:02:43 maybe it's just some Perl script gone wrong (imagine that!) 16:03:02 jdz: Yeah, but it's not as funny. 16:03:46 jdz: that's what it is. baidu's bot, a yandex bot, google bot 16:04:04 i guess that one entry in /robots.txt would solve the problem. anyone? 16:04:32 -!- pnathan [~Adium@98.145.116.190] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:04:45 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:05:40 i have only written robots.txt parser, not robots.txt files themselves 16:05:54 a long time ago, anyway 16:06:26 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-129-72.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:06:33 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:06:48 H4ns: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robots.txt is pretty clear it seems 16:06:51 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-129-72.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:21 jdz: you want access to the file so that you can fix it? 16:07:55 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-176-111.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:08:13 H4ns: i can imagine how you read what i said like that :) 16:08:22 Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:08:35 H4ns: but sure, if you say what paths should not be touched by robots, and give the access, i can do it 16:09:38 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-176-111.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:10:12 the world as we know it will end when wikipedia stops working 16:10:14 if you say what paths should not be touched by humans, and give the access, I promise not to touch them. 16:11:13 tcr1 [~tcr@95-88-46-7-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 16:11:23 H4ns: was the /cgi-bin/ always there in robots.txt? 16:11:27 jdz: ok, you can sudo, the robots.txt file is in /var/www/robots.txt i think. have a look at /var/log/apache2/access.log and decide yourself. 16:11:35 H4ns: ok 16:11:42 jdz: i don't know, frankly. 16:12:06 H4ns: it probably was if you did not add it just now 16:12:19 jdz: i did not touch it. 16:13:10 hmm, if only i knew my own password... 16:13:34 jdz: repeat the sudo 16:13:48 *nyef* doesn't know his own password, but probably still knows the root password... 16:14:03 root password, ha. that is so 1980ies 16:14:08 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-129-72.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:14:18 *H4ns* gave up on root passwords with freebsd 2.0.5 16:14:38 Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@168.22.19.85] has joined #lisp 16:14:45 well, debian ssh key wtf didn't affect password authentication.. 16:14:46 H4ns: so, no sudo for me 16:15:18 jdz: you probably need to login afresh so your process gets into the admin group 16:15:46 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has joined #lisp 16:15:48 H4ns: ok, it works now. 16:17:10 H4ns: so, it appears that only darcsweb is under /cgi-bin/ 16:17:38 -!- ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 16:17:50 jdz: ah, and the rest was aliased and thusly not restricted? 16:18:17 H4ns: apparently, /gitweb, /viewvc ... 16:18:33 jdz: nice. thanks for fixing this! 16:20:06 H4ns: sure thing. 16:20:40 hmm, i wonder when will the bots notice the updated robots.txt 16:21:22 It's so difficult to read some codes..clear but un-understandable..emm 16:21:50 jdz: "eventually" 16:22:42 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:23:17 H4ns: also, VoilaBot is scraping stuff, and according to the first google hit it does not respect robots.txt 16:23:33 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:24:14 There are a few robots which doesn't respect robots.txt 16:24:25 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-176-111.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:25:19 tons of reqests for PHP security problems... 16:25:39 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@117.197.246.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:26:10 jdz: maybe apache can be instructed not to talk to voilabot at all? 16:26:53 H4ns: yes, it's possible to add a check for user agent. but that's a bit more involved than robots.txt 16:27:53 H4ns: i just noticed that thing; but sure it generates much less traffic than the PHP security problem checkers 16:28:11 H4ns: is there anything in PHP running on common-lisp.net? 16:28:14 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@168.22.19.85] has left #lisp 16:28:26 jdz: the traffic is not so much an issue. the dozens of viewvc.cgi processes are. 16:28:50 jdz: but thanks, maybe this change already reduces the problem enough. 16:29:06 gensym` [~user@dslc-082-082-099-088.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:08 H4ns: yeah, will have to wait for the bots to notice updated robots.txt 16:29:22 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-158-248.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 16:30:33 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.217] has joined #lisp 16:31:54 -!- benkard [~benkard@2001:4ca0:0:f208:35dd:ef04:2c66:94e2] has quit [Quit: benkard] 16:32:10 _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.104.73] has joined #lisp 16:32:11 H4ns: /stats/ also should not be interesting to bots, right? 16:32:29 BlankVerse [~pankajm@117.197.235.38] has joined #lisp 16:32:31 jdz: i'd say so. the stats are completely outdated and useless anyway. 16:32:32 H4ns: mybe traffic is not a problem, but at least one file ther is like 73M 16:32:38 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:32:55 jdz: eek. a file that a php security probe reads? 16:33:21 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:33:54 H4ns: i don't think so; zobienets look for known vulnerabilities, so they have their own lists of urls to try 16:34:22 jdz: ah, just some random stats file? which one? 16:34:27 H4ns: but anyway, i edited the robots.txt, and it's reverted now... 16:34:34 H4ns: http://common-lisp.net/stats/ 16:35:02 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has joined #lisp 16:35:06 jdz: uh? overwritten you mean? your changes gone? 16:35:43 H4ns: yes. i have no idea how it could happen. 16:35:52 H4ns: i tested in my browser, it was updated. 16:35:54 jdz: version control + cron? 16:36:09 :( 16:38:35 jdz: beautiful. there is a cron job which copies /project/clo/public_html over to /var/www automatically, unconditionally. 16:38:51 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.37.207.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:39:18 H4ns: good. then we update the file there. 16:39:37 jdz: yes please. and commit to the cvs repo when you're done. 16:39:45 -!- McRibbit [~user@zaza9.ida.liu.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:39:58 jdz: i wonder why it might make sense to do it like that. 16:40:09 spearalot [~spearalot@c83-248-140-186.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:41:26 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:41:26 H4ns: probably so that people can check out the sources, and after pushing the changes they automatically get deployed without the need to log into the server 16:41:37 snearch [~snearch@e178191248.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:41:41 hm. apparently, there is a git repo in /project/clo/git as well. 16:42:12 jdz: ok. makes some sense. 16:42:24 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.19.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:42:27 *H4ns* changes the shell script to make the copy unwriteable 16:42:47 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:43:09 morphism [~Nevermind@123.16.229.179] has joined #lisp 16:43:51 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@123.16.229.179] has left #lisp 16:43:55 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:44:13 well, maybe not. there are writeable files in there, too. 16:47:39 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 16:47:47 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.19.108] has joined #lisp 16:47:48 KingNato_ [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 16:47:48 -!- KingNato_ [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:51:41 -!- KingNato [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:53:05 *writable ;;; though the alternative spelling was supported by TCL for several years, there's still no such thing in dictionaries.. 16:53:18 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:53:20 H4ns: ok, i updated robots.txt in the repo (had to add myself to the clo group) 16:54:04 jdz: ok, cool, thanks. let's see whether this has helped tomorrow. 16:56:24 H4ns: hopefully. i'm off now. 16:56:29 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Byebye.] 16:57:14 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@host109-150-73-67.range109-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:57:28 jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-92.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:58:36 -!- e-user [e-user@nat/nokia/x-cgeerzrtgxadxhkx] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:01:45 -!- H4ns [~hans@e178185075.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:04:18 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 17:06:09 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:06:09 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:06:09 -!- tritchey_ is now known as tritchey 17:08:30 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 17:15:10 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 17:16:51 Does c-l.net support a regular email account or is it forwarding only? 17:16:55 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@188-67-8-52.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:19:02 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 17:21:18 -!- peccu is now known as PECCU 17:21:19 Or, actually what I'd like to do is change the address the emails are forwarded to 17:22:20 konr [~user@201.82.161.91] has joined #lisp 17:22:29 akovalenko: why did you propose progv + eval? I understand the need for progv, but not for eval 17:22:45 -!- gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-24-216-238.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:24:00 DamienCassou: if the code itself known at the runtime, you can go without eval if you assume that free references are evaluated as specials (otherwise, you need eval to put (declare (special ,@names)) into code) 17:24:10 *is known 17:24:25 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c01b5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:34 hi 17:24:54 jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:58 -!- Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:26:02 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:26:08 DamienCassou: frankly, the whole thing looks like a wrong solution to some higher-level problem (feel free to share it if you like: what's the macro, how it's supposed to be called etc.) 17:27:17 Hey prxq 17:27:52 dmiles_a3k [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-49-126.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 17:27:57 -!- dmiles_a2k [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-49-116.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:30:06 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@201.87.5.146.user.ajato.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:30:24 Xach: I think I'd rather remove Loopless 1.0 from Quicklisp if the number of downloads according to your most recent stats is insignificant. There are a number of more or less fundamental problems with it (ex: too monolithic, no longer matches my vision, some stupid bugs, etc), and I'm not too keen to fix the smaller problems if nobody uses it anyway. 17:30:26 akovalenko: ok. I'm implementing a stupidly simple version of CLOS to show that this is possible to students. I defined the concept of a class, a method, and an object, all of them as structures. I'm now working on the 'call macro, which needs to be used to call a method on an object: (call obj methodName arg1 arg2). In this macro, I have to search for the method definition by looking at the class of the object. All this information 17:32:05 But if, unexpectedly, some people out there actually use it, I'll consider fixing some bugs and minimally supporting it. 17:32:14 fmeyer [~fmeyer@200-170-114-39.user.ajato.com.br] has joined #lisp 17:33:06 DamienCassou: now, do variable *names* really matter? If you store each method as a closure (that would accept arguments according to the structure of their lambda lists), names would never enter the picture, or so it seems. 17:33:55 akovalenko: in this case I just have to evaluate the lambda, right? 17:34:17 you have to /funcall/ the lambda (no eval) 17:34:48 akovalenko: this is what I meant, sorry 17:35:18 that is, let it be compiled completely when the method is defined. The only thing to do when the method is used is just a funcall (much cheaper and much cleaner than eval or progv or both) 17:36:18 -!- g000001_away is now known as g000001 17:37:30 and, just in case if it's not obvious: I don't mean explicit call to (COMPILE NIL (LAMBDA...)) for each method definition. Let that definition macroexpand into something involving this lambda. 17:38:06 ..and you get a lexical-capturing behavior of clos methods for free. 17:38:13 akovalenko: thanks. I did not plan to do that, but this is good to be very explicit with me :-) 17:38:22 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-216-238.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:34 I'll be back later. 17:38:58 nikodemus [~nikodemus@87-95-54-33.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 17:39:25 Hexstream: ahh 17:39:28 Hexstream: hang on 17:39:32 Xach: ok. 17:39:38 I have about 2 mins max. 17:39:52 Would you please add :description to your system definitions? (and :author, :license too? but mostly :description) 17:40:14 That is all 17:40:19 -!- pdo [~pdo@31.221.13.71] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:40:31 Yeah, well if we remove Loopless there will be only place-utils, why only lacks :license. 17:40:37 which* 17:41:22 Did I already bug you about it? 17:41:43 Xach: Well, I added :description on your request. 17:41:58 Ok, sorry for the duplicate. 17:42:30 Ok, so off I go :) 17:42:31 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 17:44:13 *gigamonkey* goes to add more :descriptions 17:44:56 gigamonkey: thanks 17:45:50 Xach: How often does one have to blog in a year not to be removed? :-) 17:45:59 1 time 17:46:06 but i might change my ways 17:46:40 akovalenko: it works! Additional benefit, it's simple :-) 17:46:46 akovalenko: thank you very much 17:46:58 Xach: in which direction? 17:47:40 gigamonkey: i like the idea of only including active (fsvo active) people in the sidebar while continuing to syndicate laggards 17:47:56 that can be done automagically 17:48:01 -!- msponge [~msponge@31-34-202.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: msponge] 17:48:12 Sure. Just show the top N most active posters and you're done, right? 17:48:47 Something like that, yes. 17:49:21 Which reminds me...someone adapted my github "new projects" hack to ruby. the only problem is they get 25 new projects per hour so it's too noisy. 17:49:31 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-49-8.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:49:36 benkard [~benkard@141.84.69.67] has joined #lisp 17:49:53 Seems like they need something like your movie-graph. 17:49:59 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.238] has joined #lisp 17:50:05 You could do that for Lisp too to show activity in projects. 17:50:18 *Xach* can't wait for January 1 so he can post his 2011 movies in review 17:51:01 Xach: currently your feed shows forks as well, right? 17:51:24 I have a (defstruct ooclass name) expression. When I evaluate it I get a style-warning condition with some are-to-read-lines above. Why is this line a problem? 17:51:43 nikodemus yes 17:52:26 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.20.102] has joined #lisp 17:52:38 Xach: it would be nifty if it could say (forked from ) in those 17:52:49 nikodemus: i'll look into it 17:53:17 DamienCassou: that expression is not problematic in itself 17:54:46 nikodemus: if I close slime and open it again, I type (defstruct foo bar), I get warnings. If I do the same outside of emacs and directly within sbcl, I get no warnings 17:55:12 urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-200-138.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 17:55:31 ahinki [~chatzilla@AAmiens-551-1-99-236.w92-147.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:55:44 -!- spacefrogg_ [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Quit: spacefrogg_] 17:57:52 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:18 acml [~user@82.222.216.156] has joined #lisp 18:00:13 nyef: You were the avangard with using package-per-file? 18:00:17 Is there code in ASDF somewhere that takes a .asd file and returns some kind of object representation of the systems described therein? 18:00:45 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.104.73] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:00:55 gigamonkey: I don't think there is something that direct. I think you can only (find-system ...) it and then map defined systems to find which one matched your file. 18:01:38 Bummmer. 18:01:58 If you dig, though, perhaps a bucketful of ::s may make it simpler 18:02:31 I was thinking about an asdf-lint 18:02:49 -!- lanthan [~ze@dslb-088-075-238-231.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:03:31 ::s be damned, then. 18:04:33 -!- acml [~user@82.222.216.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:05:04 DamienCassou: what warnings do you get? 18:05:15 (sounds like something is off-kilter in your slime setup) 18:07:06 *Xach* falls instantly in love with the github api 18:07:16 http://paste.lisp.org/display/126215 18:08:44 Xach: all my projects should have :descriptions now. Let me know if I missed any. 18:10:08 woo thanks. 18:13:35 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@200-170-114-39.user.ajato.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:14:30 fmeyer [~fmeyer@201.87.5.146.user.ajato.com.br] has joined #lisp 18:15:02 nikodemus: http://paste.lisp.org/display/126215 18:16:13 DamienCassou: (lisp-implementation-version)? 18:16:19 pjb` [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 18:16:47 nikodemus: "1.0.45.0.debian" (sbcl) 18:16:56 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:20:42 DamienCassou: i'm not 100% sure, but i suspect something that's been fixed since then in the upstream 18:21:31 nikodemus: thank you\ 18:21:46 DamienCassou: can you do (setf *break-on-signals* 'warning) (defstruct test slot) and then lisppaste the backtrace? 18:22:00 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-kcxvsepvlfwcmuxp] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:22:30 nikodemus: upstream of slime or sbcl? Because I don't see the warning in pure sbcl in a terminal 18:24:15 DamienCassou: if you give me the backtrace, i'll probably be able to tell 18:24:20 nikodemus: http://paste.lisp.org/display/126216 18:25:27 -!- xan_ [~xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:26:14 do you have the same sbcl version in both terminal and slime? 18:28:43 nikodemus: in fact not, thanks for noticing. In slime I use ibcl and I can reproduce the warning in ibcl in a terminal. I guess that ibcl has a problem because the ibcl executable has been created from the same sbcl that I tried 18:29:05 ibcl? 18:29:40 nikodemus: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/ 18:31:13 huh 18:32:41 DamienCassou: does your vanilla sbcl complain about (let () (defstruct foo bar)) in the repl? 18:33:57 *tcr1* blogs 18:34:10 (the way ibcl seems to convert everything into non-toplevel-forms is imo pretty bad: semantics change and performance suffers) 18:34:35 nikodemus: no complain 18:34:47 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.20.50.48] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:34:57 that's funny 18:35:27 I don't suppose anyone has written a library for interacting with git from Lisp? 18:35:35 nikodemus: why? 18:36:02 gigamonkey: in Emacs Lisp for sure. Don't know for Common Lisp 18:36:13 I'm looking for CL. 18:36:28 DamienCassou: what about (let ((x t)) (defstruct foo bar) x) in a fresh session? 18:37:13 nikodemus: I get a warning this time 18:37:21 nikodemus: the same undefined type foo 18:37:46 right. /that/ is a bug fixed in upstream sbcl 18:38:06 nikodemus: thank you for the debugging 18:38:08 oh, it isn't 18:38:12 it's still there 18:38:14 huh 18:39:35 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.71] has joined #lisp 18:41:38 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 18:41:43 nikodemus: I need to go now. Thank you very much for all your help 18:42:37 -!- p_l [plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-lumwvogrtzqljppv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:42:52 oudeis [~oudeis@81-179-47-76.dsl.pipex.com] has joined #lisp 18:43:02 DamienCassou: i'll push a fix to my pending tree in a bit 18:43:09 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@117.197.235.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:43:18 slash_ [~unknown@p54B87CE1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:32 -!- gensym` [~user@dslc-082-082-099-088.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:43:44 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p54B87CE1.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 18:44:17 mogs [~mogs@125.177.43.132] has joined #lisp 18:45:00 pnq [~nick@AC8145C9.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 18:45:44 -!- gko [gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:46:04 nikodemus: thanks 18:46:04 -!- DamienCassou [~cassou@2001:638:807:20d:7a84:3cff:fe05:3a9d] has left #lisp 18:46:21 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 18:46:23 -!- pjb` [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:46:23 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:46:54 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 18:47:20 -!- pjb is now known as Guest96489 18:49:39 Fare [Adium@nat/google/x-ejbdetgywzwenrmz] has joined #lisp 18:50:31 bhaskara [~user@gw.willowgarage.com] has joined #lisp 18:53:17 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@242.Red-88-24-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 18:54:51 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:55:25 Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@168.22.19.85] has joined #lisp 18:55:47 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@242.Red-88-24-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:15 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:57:55 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:58:05 -!- waltwhite [~waltwhite@113-9-190-109.dsl.ovh.fr] has quit [Quit: waltwhite] 18:59:12 waltwhite [~waltwhite@113-9-190-109.dsl.ovh.fr] has joined #lisp 18:59:47 -!- Guest96489 is now known as pjb 19:00:53 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 19:04:06 -!- sacho_ is now known as sacho 19:04:46 benkard_ [~benkard@141.84.69.67] has joined #lisp 19:04:59 -!- benkard [~benkard@141.84.69.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:04:59 -!- benkard_ is now known as benkard 19:06:24 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 19:06:56 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@81-179-47-76.dsl.pipex.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:08:26 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-176-111.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:13:31 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-207-10-137-102.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 19:14:18 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8145C9.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:17:13 pnq [~nick@AC8145C9.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 19:18:50 -!- osa1 [~sinan@141.196.116.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:21:52 -!- attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@87.247.9.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:23:19 -!- snearch [~snearch@e178191248.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 19:23:51 osa1 [~sinan@141.196.116.135] has joined #lisp 19:28:24 -!- backspac3 [~jt@S010600212f37ae27.no.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:28:39 backspac3 [~jt@S010600212f37ae27.no.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:52 -!- konr [~user@201.82.161.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:29:59 Noctifer [~Noctifer@82.113.119.91] has joined #lisp 19:34:03 I'm not sure why, but I try very hard to always use < or <= when I can. The only exception is when passing the function for ordering. 19:34:32 As opposed to > or >= 19:34:33 ? 19:34:49 yes. 19:34:57 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-207-10-137-102.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:35:05 I will order the arguments so I can use < and <=. 19:35:18 Yeah, that's probably natural for someone that reads left to right and expects the number line to do the same. 19:35:29 I do the same thing. 19:35:39 that's the thing: i can't read! 19:35:51 You're the exception that proves the rule. 19:35:56 hello, i was redirected here from #compilers, i've a question on garbage collection/garbage collectors and it's not specific to lisp - i ran into the problem that at some point destruction order matters (i.e. external libraries) so i wonder wether there are techniques and/or patterns on the language or interpreter level that could help to impose a particular destruction order? 19:36:30 when loading a system with asdf, is there a way to make it compile the whole thing with debugging turned up? 19:37:07 does someone know of a library for ecl, that has a mailbox similiar to abcl's or sbcl's? (sb-concurrency:mailbox) 19:37:07 df: I don't think there is an asdf-supported way. SBCL makes it fairly easy. 19:37:21 ah, I need to do it in ECL 19:38:02 df: I think you can use declaim for that, but I'm not sure. 19:38:08 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@201.87.5.146.user.ajato.com.br] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:38:18 Or maybe proclaim. I haven't used either. 19:38:27 benkard_ [~benkard@141.84.69.67] has joined #lisp 19:38:31 Noctifer: A couple of mechanisms come to mind, requiring various levels of support from the VM. 19:38:34 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 19:38:39 H4ns [~user@p57A9EDAF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:03 nyef: i can give *any* level of support if it's worth it 19:39:20 -!- Guest24825 is now known as xristos 19:39:26 -!- benny [~benny@i577A2CD2.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:40:10 antgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-piiiswsdojzicelj] has joined #lisp 19:40:20 Well, the simple case is to use the control stack to hold the primary references, and to deallocate on unwind. 19:40:53 The more involved case is to teach the GC about the particular kind of foreign resource and how to keep track of the ordering dependency. 19:41:10 -!- benkard [~benkard@141.84.69.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:41:10 -!- benkard_ is now known as benkard 19:41:31 nyef: that sounds like what i need ... 19:42:02 nyef yeah pretty much that is the problem actually 19:42:39 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-92.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:43:18 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 19:43:34 If you're going with the control stack, problem pretty-much solved. It's a LIFO queue. 19:44:03 -!- whoops [u549@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zloewqgcabnaxdxr] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:44:39 If you're going with the GC, well, you're in for some GC hacking, but it's fairly straightforward once you know what needs to be tracked in order to work out the deallocation order. 19:44:46 mogs_ [~mogs@125.177.43.132] has joined #lisp 19:45:00 -!- mogs [~mogs@125.177.43.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:45:04 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 19:45:18 Xach: declaim (in the repl before reloading the system, I assume that's what you meant?) didn't appear to do anything - I've worked around it for now by recompiling the relevant files with C-u C-c C-k in slime 19:45:36 nyef: ok then mh how would that be done, is there an algorithm, or a pattern to do that? i know i.e. that java and c# have some nasty constructs in their languages (i.e. the disposable interface) to allow such tewaking 19:46:08 nyef: however, a) i dont like the languages and b) that's not general, there must be some paper/research/investigation been done befor on that issue 19:46:18 In SUBTYPEP, a 'recognizable subtype' is implementation dependent? 19:46:22 Actually, we can probably do something purely in terms of weak references... 19:46:41 df: I think proclaim might be it. 19:47:00 Well, weak references and finalizers. 19:47:38 nyef: i have had a look at them ... the concept of a "weak reference" is not too language specific i'd say 19:48:10 So, what you do is you have a tree of resource objects with dependency information. 19:48:18 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.87.217] has joined #lisp 19:49:14 -!- osa1 [~sinan@141.196.116.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:49:19 This supplies the tracking information for the resources, but isn't the exposed interface. 19:50:02 Each node in the tree has a weak pointer to an object representing the interface. 19:50:34 And the interface object has a finalizer that calls some function to prune the tree as needed. 19:51:06 The prune function does a depth-first-search and prunes all leaves that don't have a valid interface pointer. 19:51:08 -!- drdo [~user@2001:690:2100:1b:1e65:9dff:fe64:8b4b] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:51:30 It's a weak pointer, so when the interface object disappears it gets cleared on the tracking node and the finalizer gets called. 19:52:09 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8145C9.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:52:11 -!- ifnspifn [~ifnspifn@184.91.204.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:52:26 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@87-95-54-33.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:52:44 benny [~benny@i577A2AB4.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:53:21 So, doesn't require any special GC hacks, does require both finalizers and weak pointers, and will deallocate in the correct order. 19:53:28 whoops [u549@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qzuwvhuowclonzli] has joined #lisp 19:53:58 In a pinch, you can lose the finalizers and just periodically try to prune. 19:54:08 ThomasH: the clhs entry for subtypep specifies what is portable and what not 19:54:11 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:54:21 Then again, in a pinch you can implement finalizers in terms of weak pointers and a post-gc hook. 19:54:41 i had the following ideas 19:55:46 a) notification hooks - an interested entity A can register for being notified before B is sweeped i.e. it will basically receive a message "whatever you need to do with B, do it now because B is gone in a second" 19:55:48 ThomasH: IIRC, an implementation must return (values t) in case you pass two atomic type specifiers designating a type defined in CLHS 19:56:18 b) locks: A can lock B (which leads to various problems i suppose) such that B is not sweeped until A releases that lock 19:56:48 c) mutual exclusive locks: if A locks B then B can't lock A (expensive and doesn't solve too many problems) 19:57:03 d) topological sorting (expensive, not flexible) 19:57:07 The notification hooks are typically called "finalizers", and are typically called post-mortem "you remember B? It's not there anymore." 19:57:25 nyef: yeah but that's too late^^ 19:57:41 That's why you build a parallel structure. 19:57:44 pnq [~nick@AC8145C9.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 19:57:58 nyef: explain please 19:58:07 tcr1: Saw that referencing to Figure 4.2. I'm not getting the correct specialized method for a generic function and was trying to figure out why. I don't think it is an issue with the 'recognizable subtype' now, I think it is something else. 19:58:47 All non-administrative access to B goes through a different object, B-interface, and the finalizer is called on B-interface. "You remember B? Well, nobody is using it anymore, and it probably should go away now..." 20:02:29 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@122.169.83.11] has joined #lisp 20:02:29 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@122.169.83.11] has quit [Changing host] 20:02:29 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 20:02:32 -!- Pomo [~Pomo@192.188.108.71] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:02:47 vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-aotfsmudvoomokxm] has joined #lisp 20:04:14 ifnspifn [~ifnspifn@173.204.91.184.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:04:24 -!- vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-aotfsmudvoomokxm] has quit [Client Quit] 20:05:54 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:48 nyef: Dybvig, Bruggeman, and Eby. Guardians in a Generation-Based Garbage Collector. 20:07:19 Noctifer: more complex (also more powerful) than finalizers. Finalizers are useful 80% solutions. 20:08:04 pkhuong: the B-interface approach or the paper i just posted? 20:08:14 guardians. 20:08:15 -!- pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:08:55 pkhuong: well i'm not afraid of complexity as long as it solves problems ... i'll add it to my 2 read list 20:08:57 nyef's suggestion is what CLers do in practice, with finalizers. 20:09:20 You don't even need finalizers, just weak pointers. 20:10:00 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:10:10 well it's kind of funny but the whole problem resolves around 4-5 types ... everything else doesn't need finalizers anymore>< 20:10:51 (those are quirky i/o libraries with requirements like "close the stream first", "then the file" ...) 20:10:53 terrible 20:10:58 but i have to use them>< 20:11:38 (!and dont do it vice versa because we were too lazy to handle that case in our code ...) 20:11:55 pers [~user@96-25-162-104.gar.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:13 luis: yeah really just making a compiler macro for foreign-bitfield-value solves this particular issue, though expand-* for foreign-bitfield improves things slightly 20:13:39 i'll read the paper now if you have any other suggestions (papers/books/approaches) - i'd appreciate it because this problem is a show-stopper 20:14:35 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 20:15:08 and thanks again because this is not a lisp-specific problem and you helped me nontheless 20:15:54 Umm... Use finalizers on your stream proxies, and a refcount on your file proxies? 20:16:13 -!- troydm [~troydm@unaffiliated/troydm] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:16:17 -!- parabolize [~gyro@c-75-71-247-61.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:16:26 And that's assuming that you need to be able to have multiple streams to the file. 20:16:39 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Exeunt IRC] 20:17:11 If it's always 1:1, just use a single proxy and do whatever. 20:17:31 Blkt [~user@82.84.182.166] has joined #lisp 20:17:51 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:18:03 parabolize [~gyro@c-75-71-247-61.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:19 gniourf_gniourf [~Gniourf@2a01:e35:2433:3b90:222:41ff:fe23:8d8e] has joined #lisp 20:18:23 nyef: it's not like that i don't have *many* possible solutions but i am looking for the best:D 20:18:57 Don't. 20:19:05 Pick one which is likely to work and run with it. 20:19:18 One of the things I like about generic functions is that when I'm implementing a new method for a new object and I don't want to do it correctly, I at least am sandboxing my bad coding. 20:20:16 When I have time, I can go back and clean up the internals and it doesn't effect the rest of my code. 20:20:28 *affect* 20:21:39 I like not having to think about class design until *after* writing some code with the GFs. 20:22:51 I like not finding horrible, horrible bugs in function calling conventions. /-: 20:23:09 I have to say I hate the hash table iteration syntax in LOOP. 20:23:37 gigamonkey: It grows on you after a while, like a mole. 20:23:58 I can never remember the syntax, so I don't use it frequently, so I never remember the syntax, so I don't use it frequently, [repeat] 20:24:01 ThomasH: The unit of measurement, right? 20:24:26 Xach: Hey, that sounds like what happens to me with DO. 20:24:27 doesn't seem worse than the rest 20:24:34 Xach: exactly. 20:24:34 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-233-235.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:38 nyef: for some reason DO sticks with me, even though I rarely use it. 20:24:43 nyef: Um, no. The sometimes hairy brown spot on skin. 20:24:59 ThomasH: I think I prefer the unit of measurement. 20:25:06 Loop hash syntax: also too verbose when you need both keys and values 20:25:43 (loop whereby the hash-key of each hash-table-entry of-hash-table foo simultaneously with ... 20:25:52 Vivitron: I find that to be most of the time when I'm looping on hash tables. 20:26:57 Between LOOP and MAPHASH, I'm becoming convinced that hash-tables really weren't intended to be used in iteration, for the most part. 20:27:27 Both seem a little awkward. 20:27:38 ThomasH: Consider WITH-HASH-TABLE-ITERATOR. 20:28:00 Or whatever it's called. 20:28:17 nyef: As more validation or an alternative? 20:28:28 Yes? 20:28:32 -!- alvis [~alvis@tx-71-2-120-116.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: Memento Mori] 20:28:43 Agreed! 20:29:10 (Clearly, it's an alternative validation!) 20:29:16 -!- edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:29:28 -!- Fare [Adium@nat/google/x-ejbdetgywzwenrmz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:30:35 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 20:31:45 I kind of hate to say it, but it seems to me that Python really nailed the whole iteration thing. 20:32:40 Thanks, now I'm going to waste an hour in the Python documentation trying to figure out why you would say that. Haven't used Python in years. 20:32:44 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8145C9.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:34:06 gigamonkey: That'd be about the one thing Python did get right, then? 20:34:51 Odin-: well, I'm sort of a fan of Python for some purposes. 20:34:56 k 20:35:10 the list comprehension stuff? 20:35:10 Though I'm always astounded at how slow it gets away with being. 20:35:18 oGMo: that'd be another one. 20:35:21 always seemed ugly and perlish .. ubt i repeat myself 20:35:27 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 20:35:35 *gigamonkey* also has a soft spot in his heart for Perl. 20:35:59 H4ns: so far no feedback re: weblocks 20:36:01 i prefer ruby's iteration, though they don't really have a good way to mix them 20:36:23 pnq [~nick@AC8145C9.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 20:36:44 Xach: interesting. the mailing list seemed relatively lively, even though it mostly seemed to contain complaints of the form "it does not work" :) 20:37:04 -!- sacho [~sacho@92-247-208-87.spectrumnet.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:38:32 Is it European holiday season again? 20:38:48 not at all. 20:39:02 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:39:21 Maybe he got hired by teclo and can't maintain any open source CL projects any more 20:39:36 osa1 [~sinan@141.196.121.49] has joined #lisp 20:40:04 Was the teclo eclm video redacted, btw? I thought I saw it up there then it was gone. 20:40:25 Vivitron: it was posted then removed 20:40:27 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-35.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:09 too bad 20:44:09 Fare [Adium@nat/google/x-txkddomnxuimhmuh] has joined #lisp 20:44:19 sacho [~sacho@95-42-127-126.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 20:48:35 -!- leo2007 [~leo@120.37.13.145] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 20:48:50 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@AAmiens-551-1-99-236.w92-147.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0.1/20110928224103]] 20:53:09 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@Riley14.price.clarkson.edu] has quit [Quit: Offline] 20:53:20 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:55:28 what is common lisp equivalent of scheme's `pair?` ? 20:56:01 osa1: What does "pair?" do? 20:56:42 Xach: returns true if it's argument is a pair 20:56:50 Isn't pair? morally equivalent to CONSP ? 20:56:52 consp? 20:56:56 osa1: What is a pair? 20:57:08 a . b is a pair 20:57:16 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-7.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:58:09 Iceland_jack: yeah, thanks 20:58:23 osa1: no problem :) 21:00:03 kpreid [~kpreid@Hooman-s-iPhone.wlan.clarkson.edu] has joined #lisp 21:01:01 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:01:25 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:01:36 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-35.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:02:00 -!- entrix [~entrix@95-24-111-188.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:05:33 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:06:25 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:06:36 Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:07:07 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:08:01 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 21:08:11 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:08:52 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:14:06 troydm [~troydm@unaffiliated/troydm] has joined #lisp 21:15:25 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:18:13 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:18:43 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:23:05 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8145C9.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:27:59 marsell [~marsell@120.18.237.130] has joined #lisp 21:28:48 -!- gniourf_gniourf [~Gniourf@2a01:e35:2433:3b90:222:41ff:fe23:8d8e] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:31:42 -!- hugod [~user@76.65.142.49] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:32:46 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 21:33:05 hugod [~user@76.65.142.49] has joined #lisp 21:33:08 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 21:41:10 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@77.109.98.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:42:25 theBlackDragon [~dragon@77.109.98.120] has joined #lisp 21:45:42 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.217] has joined #lisp 21:45:55 gensym` [~user@dslc-082-082-099-088.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:51 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:47:51 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:50:02 Pomo [~Pomo@192.188.108.71] has joined #lisp 21:53:16 djuber [~djuber@c-76-16-60-176.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:47 -!- backspac3 [~jt@S010600212f37ae27.no.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:54:22 backspac3 [~jt@S010600212f37ae27.no.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:17 mindCrime [~chatzilla@24.106.207.82] has joined #lisp 21:56:56 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 21:58:50 gigamonkey: a soft spot for PERL? I'm sure you can have that removed if it's bothering you, hehe 22:00:08 *j_king* also has a soft spot for perl. 22:02:19 must be catching, we should really nip this in the bud before it becomes a problem 22:03:06 pitlimit [~pitlimit@unaffiliated/pitlimit] has joined #lisp 22:05:58 Can anyone tell me why an extra line always prints?: 22:05:59 http://paste.lisp.org/display/126223 22:06:06 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.87.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:06:15 -!- gensym` [~user@dslc-082-082-099-088.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:06:57 what do you see when you enter (progn (test 1 2) (test 3 4)) ? 22:07:28 "print is just like prin1 except that the printed representation of object is preceded by a newline and followed by space." 22:07:44 pitlimit: From the hyperspec, that is the defined behavior. 22:07:55 oh 22:07:56 I had no idea 22:08:46 lutok [~user@ip98-169-240-101.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:50 Okay so I will use format t instead 22:09:04 or prin1, does just what you wanted 22:09:14 yes 22:09:21 pitlimit: Or princ, or write-char or write-string, etc. 22:09:31 yes - thank you 22:09:32 write-line 22:14:12 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:14:48 DamienCassou [~cassou@fibz10.fh-potsdam.de] has joined #lisp 22:15:17 -!- antgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-piiiswsdojzicelj] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:16:07 hi 22:16:23 duomo [~duomo@cpe-69-204-168-98.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:16:24 I can't make a simple read macro to work: http://paste.lisp.org/display/126224 22:16:46 I always get a read failure 22:17:39 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:18:36 sevenless [~tom@137.205.55.74] has joined #lisp 22:21:55 use READ instead of READ-LINE, maybe? 22:22:33 anvandare [~anvandare@dD5770BC5.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 22:23:12 -!- akovalenko [~akovalenk@95.73.53.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:23:17 ThomasH: I really want to build a string 22:24:21 seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:16 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@c83-248-140-186.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 22:25:19 DamienCassou: I've never messed with the readtable, but it seems to me that READ-LINE doesn't apply, I don't see how your square bracket delimited input would be ended with a #\Newline. 22:25:34 what does that have to do with how you READ ? You'll build a string either way. 22:26:00 am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.158] has joined #lisp 22:26:02 DamienCassou: try read-delimited-list? 22:26:27 antifuchs: I don't want to loose the spaces and newlines 22:26:28 DamienCassou: at any rate, read-line reads the ] delimiter, and all the other ) marks as well, so your reader is pretty much right to complain (: 22:26:32 ah. hm. 22:26:42 in fact, I just want to get the source code as-is between [ and ] 22:26:53 in that case, read character by character and put it into that output string stream 22:27:11 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.111.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:27:38 (do () ((char= (read-char stream nil #\] t) ...) something like that, straight from the set-macro-character example. 22:27:54 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_set_ma.htm 22:28:13 Or LOOP, something along those lines. 22:29:21 akovalenko [~akovalenk@95.72.175.162] has joined #lisp 22:29:26 DamienCassou: I would also save the default readtable somewhere handy so that when the one you're modifying gets totally hosed, you can hopefully get back to the original. 22:29:54 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@Hooman-s-iPhone.wlan.clarkson.edu] has quit [Quit: Offline] 22:31:48 ah, I see. Reading is expected to be interrupted by #\], simply because its macro function is set to #\)'s. Well, it doesn't work this way: #\)'s macro function is useful for "unmatched parenthesis"-style diagnostics only, and it's regarded as end of input by read-delimited-list, not by something else. 22:31:56 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:32:55 ..also, for fasl-compiled file it should be (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) .... (setf *readtable* ...)) 22:33:18 splitting all readtable initialization into another file is easier 22:33:32 (ql:quickload :named-readtables) is recommended 22:33:42 -!- mogs_ [~mogs@125.177.43.132] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:34:31 DamienCassou: and now, what did you want to do? Another syntax for string literals? (then why use balancing delimiters, like []? generally, it makes sense when nesting makes sense) 22:35:06 yaht3e [~nicholasb@69-92-113-237.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:13 akovalenko: this read macro is for my DSL that build slides for me: 22:36:13 (slide 22:36:13 :title "dsfsdf" 22:36:13 (slisp [(defun reset-ooClasses () 22:36:13 (setf *ooClasses* nil))])) 22:36:46 should create a slide containing a title, this lisp expression (with correct indentation), and the computed result of the expression 22:36:47 well, is it like ""'s, with the purpose to avoid escaping internal """"'s? 22:37:26 akovalenko: it is like ""s, with the goal of keeping indentation easy and automatic, not man-made 22:37:31 within emacs 22:37:36 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:38:34 DamienCassou: I think something involving macros and pprint would be easier than modifying the readtable. 22:38:35 just read everything character-by-character, until you meet ]. (and let it fail for EOF, don't hide it and don't handle it yourself on that level) 22:39:12 ThomasH: antifuchs: ayrnieu: thanks to all of you, your advice worked 22:39:29 DamienCassou: Ok, good luck. 22:39:37 ThomasH: pprint would lose comments (and, generally, the exact input in its string form will be unavailadble). Not always a good thing. 22:40:25 the working version: http://paste.lisp.org/display/126225 22:40:40 akovalenko: Ah, ok. 22:41:31 ThomasH: my problem was that I can't make format to guess how I want the expressions on my slide to be rendered. 22:41:39 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-233-235.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: .#] 22:42:10 DamienCassou: Yeah, that's why I thought of pprint, but akovalenko pointed out problems with that approach. 22:42:11 so I used strings to but the line breaks wherever I want. But I have to take care of indentation and I loose some features of emacs 22:42:11 DamienCassou: what is the back end? latex? 22:42:26 latex + beamer 22:42:54 hip people are using html slidy these days... 22:42:56 there is something more to do to make the original indentation useful in resulting literals.. 22:43:22 pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has joined #lisp 22:43:39 sacho_ [~sacho@95-42-127-126.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 22:43:51 actually, it's more like "probably impossible" than "more to do".. 22:45:19 https://github.com/DamienCassou/DSLides for the code + http://damien.cassou.free.fr/clos.pdf for a result 22:45:31 DamienCassou: I edited your LOOP form a little -> http://paste.lisp.org/+2PE9/1 22:46:55 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-127-126.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:46:59 akovalenko: yes, but I don't know how yet. Either I thought of getting the position of the character when the expression starts and then remove the spaces according to this position 22:47:12 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:47:45 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.233] has joined #lisp 22:47:50 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@2.129.192.222] has joined #lisp 22:47:56 -!- yaht3e [~nicholasb@69-92-113-237.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Quit: yaht3e] 22:47:56 -!- osa1 [~sinan@141.196.121.49] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:48:31 ThomasH: seems to work fine, thank you 22:49:04 -!- Blkt [~user@82.84.182.166] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:49:11 DamienCassou: wtf is get-source? Where do you get that from? 22:49:38 prxq: I get that from ibcl: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/ 22:49:55 DamienCassou: Excellent, I just posted another annotation with the entire lambda condensed. 22:51:05 nialo` [nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:40 ThomasH: seems to be working fine :-) 22:51:48 thank you very much to all of you 22:51:51 DamienCassou: Good deal. 22:52:22 time for me to sleep 22:52:31 *akovalenko* still wants to insist that eof-error-p should be true, /without/ custom eof handling 22:52:44 thanks to all of you, you will have a dedicated slide :-) 22:53:37 akovalenko: because I should always get a #\] before the end of the file or there is a problem that I should not catch? 22:54:50 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c01b5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:55:18 DamienCassou: well, I doubt that you /want/ an unpaired [ to be okay 22:55:32 akovalenko: you are right, I fixed that, thanks 22:56:48 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA1072.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:56:53 [ ;; let me explain how I got those []'s: (set-macro-character...) ] <==== such a slide would fail :) 22:57:10 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 22:57:38 akovalenko: Good point, I was just following the example blindly. 22:57:43 akovalenko: I think I would have to check for \ before ] 22:57:59 this is what is explained in read-delimited-list 22:58:04 dsrguru [~dsr@132.161.245.46] has joined #lisp 22:58:23 checking for \ before ] just makes it more irregular. 22:58:47 What's the usual way of indenting multi-line documentation strings? 23:00:38 dsrguru: the most important thing is not to insist on spaces on the left side, against the editor's decision :) 23:01:37 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.190.39.231] has joined #lisp 23:01:38 akovalenko: makes sense 23:08:09 -!- lutok [~user@ip98-169-240-101.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:08:29 when i use the slime inspector and navigate up and down, my steps are traced by @i with i being a number. is there a way for me to pick object @i and put it in the repl? 23:08:29 -!- pitlimit [~pitlimit@unaffiliated/pitlimit] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:09:21 this discussion makes me think of literate programming for some reason 23:09:48 pitlimit [~pitlimit@dyn-160-39-55-94.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 23:09:48 -!- pitlimit [~pitlimit@dyn-160-39-55-94.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Changing host] 23:09:48 pitlimit [~pitlimit@unaffiliated/pitlimit] has joined #lisp 23:10:00 Guthur: which one? 23:10:30 time to go to bed 23:10:34 thanks for your help 23:10:36 goodnight DamienCassou 23:10:58 good night 23:11:09 madnificent: M-RET 23:11:30 daimrod: just awesome! thanks! 23:11:44 madnificent: the slides of code one 23:12:10 -!- sipo [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:13:13 Guthur: oh, that. yeah, maybe to some extent. it's all about taking a code-representation and getting it back out there. i toyed with that library past week (i think) and it actually did work, with little code. 23:14:16 another one about the slime-inspector: can i open up multiple slime-inspectors, so i can inspect two objects side-by-side? 23:14:35 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@242.Red-88-24-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 23:15:38 -!- DamienCassou [~cassou@fibz10.fh-potsdam.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:15:58 I've been using org-mode a lot recently, would be interesting to try out Babel there 23:16:52 I'm in the middle of moving all my work tracking stuff stuff to ORG 23:16:56 i use it extensively 23:17:08 -!- dsrguru [~dsr@132.161.245.46] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:17:14 we use the plain that is Quality Centre in work 23:17:31 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:17:34 I've nearly got it so that I will never (or at least seldom) have to use it again 23:17:54 zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:04 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:18:16 The QCs use is a prime example of a decision made be middle management and HP sales people 23:18:24 Vivitron: How do I get emacs to display "lambda" as ? 23:18:49 Quadrescence: "flatten-once" is just (mapcan #'copy-seq my-list) 23:19:17 madnificent: you can rename the buffer (M-x rename-buffer) 23:19:28 -!- p8m [~dmm@64.15.82.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:19:44 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:20:59 p8m [~dmm@64.15.82.28] has joined #lisp 23:21:49 daimrod: but moving down on items then still pops up a new slime-inspector, with the original name. though i can manage this way, is there something sexier? 23:22:25 plan9 [~stian@arachnotron.sletner.com] has joined #lisp 23:22:28 Hexstream: I am using pretty-lambada.el, here's a discussion of it and link to it, in the discussion they mention the possibility of auto-save files saving the symbol code instead of "lambda" in some situations but I haven't had that problem. 23:22:31 http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/PrettyLambda 23:22:50 madnificent: I don't think so :( you would have to change how slime-inspector manage its buffers. 23:22:56 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA1072.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:23:06 Vivitron: Thanks. 23:23:10 daimrod: still, thanks for the great advice! 23:23:36 madnificent: you're welcome. 23:24:10 Guthur: on terms of literate programming, i'm thinking of a new concept (we dubbed it impartial programming, imp for short) which heavily stems on it. 23:26:03 I also edited that file to make setf display as a unicode left arrow, and but alas that made multi line setfs look improperly indented 23:27:15 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.149] has joined #lisp 23:29:26 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@168.22.19.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:32:01 l_r [~lr@adsl-ull-153-2.42-151.net24.it] has joined #lisp 23:32:02 hello 23:32:17 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@77.109.98.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:32:22 l_r: Hi. 23:32:28 is there any lisp to c or to pseudo code or to whatever converter? 23:32:53 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:33:09 the syntax is really obscure 23:33:26 theBlackDragon [~dragon@77.109.98.120] has joined #lisp 23:33:34 ECL generates C, but... what? You just want to understand some lisp? 23:33:36 just takes out the ()s and leave the indentation and you'll have pseudo code. 23:33:59 what's the easiest way to understand macros? 23:34:30 sevenless: they make code for you. 23:34:32 sevenless: macros are functions that are called by the compiler to transform code into code. 23:34:35 ayrnieu, i need to convert an algorithm from lisp to c 23:34:43 hm 23:35:15 l_r - so, understand what the Lisp is doing. Then do that in C. I don't think you'll shorten this with any converter. 23:35:48 gigamonkey: when i write pseudocode to construct an algorithm, i often find myself doing the inverse of that and then just defining the functions i need. it actually works! 23:36:18 sevenless: http://www.lisperati.com/casting.html 23:36:19 sevenless: A macro is just a function, taking 2 arguments, a form and an environment (and nevermind the environment for now). The macro takes the form as input and returns another form as output. This is done at compile-time. That's pretty much all there is to it. DEFMACRO incidentally provides easy destructuring of arguments, but that's not fundamental. 23:36:19 -!- juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:36:25 l_r: See also http://paste.lisp.org/display/126227 23:36:32 sevenless: i wonder why that's your qeustion. are you trying to figure out what you'll gain, or how they operate? 23:37:02 madnificent: macros seem to be the "big draw" of lisp, so i'm trying to assess how they'll improve my life. 23:37:09 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-200-138.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:37:12 what a surprise..i am actually converting an algorithm from norvig 23:37:13 sevenless: you might look at http://gigamonkeys.com/book/macros-defining-your-own.html 23:37:13 wanderingelf [4817e03b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.23.224.59] has joined #lisp 23:37:50 thanks for these links 23:37:54 sevenless: Macros let you play language designer easily. If you ever thought: "I wish there were iteration construct X" or something, then they can help you. 23:39:14 gigamonkey, what is that link for? 23:39:24 gigamonkey, i don't see any converter 23:39:29 Vivitron: lambda-mode seems to work awesomely, except for one thing: the lambda symbol is too tall, so it makes whatever line it appears on a bit taller, and that really screws up formatting. Also it looks a bit too bold, bizarrely. 23:39:37 l_r: which link? 23:39:56 the gigamonkeys.com was for sevenless. 23:40:14 sevenless: well it's not only macros. it's just that macro's are one of the prime examples of how you can put power into the hands of users. the whole feel of lisp is how you can give full control to users, without making everything cumbersome to work with. gigamonkey's book is good. a nice example (imo) is with-open-file it's easy to understand and does show the kind of expressivity you gain. (but it goes much farther, check out 23:40:14 loop (also in gigamonkey's book) for that) 23:40:26 gigamonkey, l_r: See also http://paste.lisp.org/display/126227 23:40:37 gigamonkey, what is it for? 23:40:40 If we can fix this I'll always use this from now on, I think. :) 23:41:41 Hexstream: can you give me a shout when it's fixed, i'd like to try it out then. 23:41:51 l_r: edification. 23:41:56 madnificent: Ok. 23:41:59 Or, appeal to authority. 23:42:01 Hexstream: thanks! 23:42:12 EarlGray^ [~dalet@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:50 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-35.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:50 ah, too bad Hexstream, it looks good in 9 point terminus 23:43:35 I just don't understand why it doesn't just inherit the right font, like everything else. Must be a bug. 23:44:16 Perhaps my font doesn't have the lambda symbol so emacs has to search in another font or something... 23:46:47 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA1072.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:47:26 -!- plan9 [~stian@arachnotron.sletner.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:48:21 zmv [~zmv@189.120.173.189] has joined #lisp 23:48:23 -!- akovalenko [~akovalenk@95.72.175.162] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:48:30 captaincoffee [~russell@c-76-122-135-146.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:48:49 I have seen many people complain about the parenthesis in Lisp but then have no problems with XML being used for all the wrong purposes 23:50:00 they are essentially the same structure except XML *is* hard to read, and very noisy 23:50:05 what does setq do 23:50:18 l_r: Use SETF instead. 23:50:25 SETQ is a relic. 23:50:36 what does setf do 23:50:39 I think there are places where the parentheses are excessive, cond, let with only 1 variable, etc. 23:50:46 l_r: Assign new values to places. 23:50:50 Hexstream: I don't think he wants to use Lisp 23:51:07 Guthur: That's his loss! bbl. 23:51:53 yep, but the resistance learning is quite prevalent these days 23:53:05 s/resistance/resistance to 23:53:08 the syntax is really obscure 23:53:26 l_r: it's just different from what you're used to 23:53:29 l_r: you may discuss on the wordings, but the syntax is simple :) 23:53:39 wait, am i wrong? 23:54:47 seriously, read some C++ or haskell code and then you can whine one the syntax but not it lisp. 23:54:52 what syntax in lisp is obscure? 23:55:04 l_r: think of setf as an assignment. though it may assign to different 'places'. the place is the first form in the setf, the value the second. thus (setf foo 100) assigns 100 to the variable foo. and (setf (gethash :blah table) 100) assigns 100 to key :blah of a hash table. 23:55:31 l_r: it's basically your common = operator on steroids. 23:55:44 I love that thing "backtracing" thing of CL. 23:55:52 -!- Fare [Adium@nat/google/x-txkddomnxuimhmuh] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:55:54 s/thing // 23:56:20 what should i have to understand from cond for example? the code i have here is something like " cond ( 0) ( 1) (t )" . should i have guessed that "t" is a keyword? 23:56:43 t is always true, so basically it's the final else clause 23:57:23 -!- nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 23:57:32 djuber, exactly... it took me an headache to understand it 23:58:05 l_r: well, if you want to read a language you're going to have to learn some stuff. Why are your reading Lisp code in the first place? 23:58:08 l_r: it's like a switch/case statement, but then with conditions being cehcked, instead of values. it might --perhaps-- be wise to --you know-- *learn* the language instead of just asking anything you see and are reluctant to think about :) 23:58:40 l_r: it's like if (my_pointer) { ... } in C where you don't write my_pointer == NULL but just my_pointer 23:59:02 News at 11: learning is hard when you do it all wrong. 23:59:19 l_r: there's a reason why people have to learn things. if you learned to play on a ukulele, would you expect to be able to play a clarinet as well? 23:59:46 madnificent: I would if I could