00:01:25 lutok [~user@ip98-169-240-101.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:19 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 00:04:13 alvis [~alvis@tx-71-2-120-116.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 00:04:29 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:05:08 rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 00:08:35 -!- tessier [~treed@216.105.40.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:10:35 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.207] has joined #lisp 00:15:35 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.2.203] has joined #lisp 00:15:35 -!- syrinx_ is now known as syrinx 00:16:23 -!- syrinx is now known as syrinx_ 00:22:23 -!- rotty [rotty@de.xx.vu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:23:36 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@cpe-74-64-109-53.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:24:54 DaDaDosPrompt [~DaDaDosPr@75-163-225-197.clsp.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:14 fryguybob [43fd9983@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.253.153.131] has joined #lisp 00:28:23 I would like to construct a lambda expression that ignores its argument. Is there a way to do that and not get a warning that a variable is not used? 00:29:04 fryguybob: (declare (ignore argument-name)) to start the body. 00:29:18 e.g. (lambda (x) (declare (ignore x)) 42) 00:29:59 Xach: Thanks. 00:32:14 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:33:01 replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 00:33:18 -!- jamesstanley [~james@cpc4-bath5-2-0-cust35.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:34:30 -!- Houl [~Miranda@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 00:41:20 xcv [~xcv@dsl-225-28.hive.is] has joined #lisp 00:41:58 -!- xcv [~xcv@dsl-225-28.hive.is] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:42:22 nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:40 jamesstanley [~james@cpc4-bath5-2-0-cust35.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 00:46:42 -!- jesse [~jesse@foresight/developer/jesse] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:47:39 jesse [~jesse@foresight/developer/jesse] has joined #lisp 00:51:48 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:52:45 cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.232.190] has joined #lisp 00:53:19 MrUnagi [~mrunagi@118.sub-75-203-156.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 00:53:26 -!- MrUnagi [~mrunagi@118.sub-75-203-156.myvzw.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:56:19 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 00:57:54 -!- italic [~italic@cpe-74-77-202-204.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:58:43 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.232.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:00:08 cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.232.190] has joined #lisp 01:03:00 -!- nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:03:12 nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:19 -!- ehine1 [~ericyoda@rrcs-72-43-70-106.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:08:14 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:10:20 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 01:13:51 -!- xan_ [~xan@65.Red-95-122-110.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:19:01 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.144.226.7] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:21:20 -!- marsell [~marsell@120.18.143.214] has quit [Quit: marsell] 01:22:55 -!- jesse [~jesse@foresight/developer/jesse] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:23:49 jesse [~jesse@foresight/developer/jesse] has joined #lisp 01:26:54 -!- wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:29:36 -!- setmeaway2 [setmeaway3@118.45.149.92] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:29:39 joooooo [setmeaway3@118.45.149.92] has joined #lisp 01:29:49 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 01:35:21 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:35:26 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:39:05 -!- initself [~initself@li85-41.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:39:08 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:40:43 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.235] has quit [Quit: lab] 01:42:25 wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:43 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 01:47:35 drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:24 WordWow [~WordWow@adsl-76-233-38-184.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:11 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:55:21 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:57:02 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 01:57:49 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:58:05 -!- oconnore [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:59:01 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 02:05:51 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 02:09:20 I have a hash table and I would like a list of the keys, it doesn't seem that (maphash (lambda (k v) v) *my-hash*) does this for me. Is there a good way to do this? 02:11:35 -!- WordWow [~WordWow@adsl-76-233-38-184.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:12:15 BrianRice [~water@174-31-148-97.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:41 fryguybob: err, "v" is the value, not the keys 02:16:12 You still have to collect that value somewhere. 02:16:14 oops, same still applies (maphash (lambda (k v) k) *my-hash*) gives me nil 02:16:20 fryguybob: (let (keys) (maphash (lambda (k v) (push k keys))) keys) 02:16:44 fryguybob: try: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:hash-table-keys 02:17:09 fryguybob: (loop for k being the hash-keys of *h* collect k) 02:17:32 as in: (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum) (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:hash-table-keys *your-hash*) 02:18:01 And if you don't like to preserve the freedom of your users, you can also find something similar in alexandria ;-) 02:20:02 Humm, pjb's option is over my head. I was hoping for something without mutation... I guess that isn't the lisp way. 02:20:18 What mutation is there in using a library? 02:20:38 I was referring to push. 02:20:48 I was referring to (hash-table-keys *your-hash*) 02:21:25 thanks for the help. 02:21:29 that's mine, yes? Common Lisp people don't hate mutation, and push doesn't even mutate an object, only a binding.. 02:22:08 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-208-211-246.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:24:16 fryguybob: if using a library is over your head, perhaps you should consider selling fries instead. 02:24:46 ? 02:24:58 " Humm, pjb's option is over my head. " 02:27:20 pjb: Sorry, I'm not familiar with libraries in lisp. Don't really see why that warrants an insult. 02:28:02 I gave you all you have to type to use it. 02:28:02 fry: CL is a procedural language. 02:28:36 It provides reasonable support for a functional style of programming. 02:29:35 pjb: I'm not looking for something to cut and paste, but rather some understanding. 02:30:04 Yuuhi``` [benni@p5483B417.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:16 fryguybob: that's where you fetch the library and read the source. 02:30:40 pjb: Which is over my head at the moment. 02:30:40 -!- Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483B158.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:30:43 fryguybob: https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blobs/master/common-lisp/cesarum/utility.lisp 02:30:43 Thanks again for the help. 02:30:50 line 1057. 02:33:15 coderdad [~coderdad@ip68-97-195-24.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:22 pjb: Thanks. 02:33:57 fryguybob: perhaps you haven't installed quickclisp yet. Go to http://quicklisp.org/ 02:34:30 fryguybob: yes, you've got to install quicklisp. 02:35:07 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 02:36:09 I'll make a note of it. 02:40:04 -!- SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:40:12 I don't think suggesting a library to fryguybob was the best advice for his problem. 02:40:58 gko [~gko@111.81.75.30] has joined #lisp 02:41:40 Both suggestions were made. 02:42:45 To learn how to get keys from a hash table, getting the source of the library (or identically, what Axioplase_ copy-and-pasted), is good, but to be an efficient programmer you have to learn to use libraries too. 02:44:22 when an advice is not wrong, but simply not the best, there's no need for correction -- posting another advice is enough. Here we seen (1) two libraries recommended, (2) loop-based solution, (3) maphash/push. Seems like a pretty good choice of advices... 02:47:38 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@ip68-97-195-24.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 02:52:30 -!- loz [~user@87.226.216.218] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:56:42 -!- lutok [~user@ip98-169-240-101.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:56:47 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 02:57:49 superflit [~superflit@71-208-211-246.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:58 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 03:01:24 ISF [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has joined #lisp 03:01:28 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has quit [Client Quit] 03:01:43 ISF [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has joined #lisp 03:04:24 ehine1 [~ericyoda@rrcs-72-43-70-106.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:11:38 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-171-177.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:11:49 -!- maxm- [~user@p84-72.acedsl.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:11:54 maxm- [~user@p84-72.acedsl.com] has joined #lisp 03:13:42 -!- ldlework [~dlacewell@c-67-184-74-34.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:17:47 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-nzcbqtlsdcnirecu] has joined #lisp 03:17:51 loz [~user@87.226.216.218] has joined #lisp 03:19:04 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:19:29 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:20:56 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:24:04 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:27:40 yates [~yates@cpe-66-25-60-51.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:28:07 suggestions for gui frameworks/libraries that work well with sbcl under linux? 03:29:47 rtoyg: hey 03:30:49 rtoyg: i saw kevin jones about two weeks ago 03:32:31 -!- jesse [~jesse@foresight/developer/jesse] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:33:16 quiet tonight... 03:33:35 jesse [~jesse@foresight/developer/jesse] has joined #lisp 03:33:36 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:35:28 -!- yates [~yates@cpe-66-25-60-51.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.1] 03:36:02 yates [~yates@cpe-66-25-60-51.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:38:18 -!- coyo [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:39:35 rtoyg: quit playing with your emacs and wake up! 03:40:41 tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 03:40:58 coyo [kvirc@pool-71-164-173-28.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:58 -!- coyo [kvirc@pool-71-164-173-28.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 03:40:58 coyo [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 03:44:43 -!- iwillig [~ivan@ool-ad03c1a0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:48:32 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 03:49:27 DataLinkDKT [~DataLinkD@123.208.170.208] has joined #lisp 03:50:12 -!- DataLinkDKT [~DataLinkD@123.208.170.208] has quit [Client Quit] 03:50:55 waveman [~tim@124.170.43.134] has joined #lisp 03:53:52 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:54:17 -!- jimmyrcom [~fold@adsl-75-53-33-186.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:01:17 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 04:01:40 gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.25.119] has joined #lisp 04:02:39 -!- el-maxo [~max@p5DE8C3E3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:03:16 tiglog [~topeak@61.149.230.38] has joined #lisp 04:06:32 el-maxo [~max@p5DE8FD96.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:33 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.25.119] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:07:18 gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.25.119] has joined #lisp 04:17:11 -!- __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:18:22 __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:08 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:19:09 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.25.119] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:19:35 gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.25.119] has joined #lisp 04:22:09 -!- yates [~yates@cpe-66-25-60-51.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.1] 04:25:09 daniel [~daniel@p5B3267E3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:14 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p5B326E48.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:29:08 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:31:44 -!- qsun [~qsun@66.220.3.138] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:32:09 ^|ShaRk|^ [~ShaRk@200.112.247.75] has joined #lisp 04:32:43 -!- ^|ShaRk|^ [~ShaRk@200.112.247.75] has left #lisp 04:34:21 qsun [~qsun@66.220.3.138] has joined #lisp 04:34:33 cfy [~cfy@122.228.135.216] has joined #lisp 04:34:33 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.135.216] has quit [Changing host] 04:34:33 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 04:34:33 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.25.119] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:34:49 gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.25.119] has joined #lisp 04:36:35 -!- parabolize [~gyro@c-75-71-247-61.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:37:20 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:39:11 parabolize [~gyro@c-75-71-247-61.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:42:31 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 04:44:00 -!- fryguybob [43fd9983@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.253.153.131] has left #lisp 04:47:41 jasom [~aidenn@ip98-182-19-91.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:55:43 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:58:02 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.91.1] 05:00:43 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:03:40 PiRSquared17 [~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17] has joined #lisp 05:03:55 nostoi [~nostoi@134.Red-79-157-235.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 05:05:58 -!- PiRSquared17 [~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17] has left #lisp 05:05:58 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.25.119] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:06:32 gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.25.119] has joined #lisp 05:07:50 -!- chrnybo` [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:09:51 -!- qsun [~qsun@66.220.3.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:11:33 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 05:11:44 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 05:12:17 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-139-160.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 05:14:01 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has joined #lisp 05:17:54 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.207] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 05:17:55 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.25.119] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:18:35 gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.25.119] has joined #lisp 05:25:59 mamats [~mats@203.82.90.68] has joined #lisp 05:28:33 -!- mamats [~mats@203.82.90.68] has quit [Client Quit] 05:28:59 mamats [~mats@203.82.90.68] has joined #lisp 05:29:02 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:32:06 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-208-211-246.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:33:30 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:33:31 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.25.119] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:34:08 gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.25.119] has joined #lisp 05:35:49 -!- mamats [~mats@203.82.90.68] has quit [] 05:36:17 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-110-173.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:36:38 superflit [~superflit@71-208-211-246.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:37:53 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 05:41:13 tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-30-61.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 05:41:13 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.25.119] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:41:40 gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.25.119] has joined #lisp 05:42:50 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 05:42:51 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.25.119] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:43:06 gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.25.119] has joined #lisp 05:43:18 -!- tsuru [~charlie@adsl-98-87-48-164.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:45:14 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 05:45:14 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.25.119] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:46:29 triad [lcampbell@67-149-209-46.static.try.wideopenwest.com] has joined #lisp 05:48:16 McCarthy was great. I just got my copy of Minsky's Society of Mind I read in the 80's fantastic find again. 05:49:06 H4ns [5b3d4884@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.61.72.132] has joined #lisp 05:50:44 book ? 05:50:44 -!- triad [lcampbell@67-149-209-46.static.try.wideopenwest.com] has left #lisp 05:50:55 oh i have to go.... 05:51:02 borkman [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:51:39 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-223.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:51:45 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-223.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:58:31 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@134.Red-79-157-235.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 06:03:53 setmeaway2 [setmeaway3@118.45.149.92] has joined #lisp 06:05:00 -!- joooooo [setmeaway3@118.45.149.92] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:06:45 -!- easyE [zqiWm53UWV@panix2.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:07:17 -!- ehine1 [~ericyoda@rrcs-72-43-70-106.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:11:45 -!- dru1d [~lukasz@82.177.172.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:16:47 -!- csdserver [~csdserver@unaffiliated/csddesk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:20:13 -!- coyo [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Quit: I need my meds... >.<] 06:21:55 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-aianzaghsrrhxkat] has joined #lisp 06:21:55 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-aianzaghsrrhxkat] has quit [Changing host] 06:21:55 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:22:26 csdserver [~csdserver@76.177.111.55] has joined #lisp 06:25:42 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:25:59 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-30-61.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:31:17 duomo [~duomo@cpe-69-204-169-245.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:33:40 -!- ski_ [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:36:37 ski_ [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 06:37:36 -!- csdserver [~csdserver@76.177.111.55] has quit [Changing host] 06:37:36 csdserver [~csdserver@unaffiliated/csddesk] has joined #lisp 06:39:18 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-218-233.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:41:05 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 06:42:27 -!- borkman [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:45:03 can anyone summarize the meanings of max-step and min-step in iomux:event-dispatch? 06:46:28 -!- sacho [~sacho@90.154.214.110] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:51:57 -!- MasseR [~masse@dyn68-323.yok.fi] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 06:54:22 -!- ski_ [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:56:45 ski_ [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 06:58:45 tritchey [~tritchey@12.207.196.2] has joined #lisp 07:01:33 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.114.83] has joined #lisp 07:06:31 -!- ski_ [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:08:30 ski_ [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 07:08:45 -!- H4ns [5b3d4884@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.61.72.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:10:44 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:10:51 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:13:00 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:14:06 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 07:14:38 agumonkey [~agu@34.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 07:15:06 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-208-211-246.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:19:34 -!- ski_ [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:22:09 ski_ [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 07:28:56 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:29:16 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-110-173.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:31:38 -!- foocraft [foocraft@ibawizard.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:31:49 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@12.207.196.2] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 07:31:57 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:32:25 foocraft [foocraft@ibawizard.net] has joined #lisp 07:34:00 alesguzik [~alesguzik@195.222.85.160.altoros.com] has joined #lisp 07:36:00 alesguzik_ [~alesguzik@195.222.85.160.altoros.com] has joined #lisp 07:36:08 -!- alesguzik_ [~alesguzik@195.222.85.160.altoros.com] has quit [Client Quit] 07:42:24 -!- alesguzik [~alesguzik@195.222.85.160.altoros.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:47:16 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 07:47:58 newcup [newcup@peruna.fi] has joined #lisp 07:49:31 sacho [~sacho@194.141.26.111] has joined #lisp 07:53:21 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@198-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:53:44 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:54:16 WordWow [~WordWow@adsl-76-233-38-184.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:56:32 -!- nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:01:37 easyE [XUb4OVkdAG@panix2.panix.com] has joined #lisp 08:12:06 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:12:35 -!- jesse [~jesse@foresight/developer/jesse] has quit [Quit: Bye] 08:13:35 -!- DaDaDosPrompt [~DaDaDosPr@75-163-225-197.clsp.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: DaDaDosPrompt] 08:14:03 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:20:13 -!- sacho [~sacho@194.141.26.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:21:18 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-eicbwigpccueujbd] has joined #lisp 08:24:37 bsod1 [~sinan@88.240.135.43] has joined #lisp 08:25:48 cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.76] has joined #lisp 08:25:48 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.76] has quit [Changing host] 08:25:48 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 08:25:55 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-43-167.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:25:55 -!- insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-43-167.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Changing host] 08:25:55 insomnia1alt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 08:26:12 -!- WordWow [~WordWow@adsl-76-233-38-184.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:26:37 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:26:38 lemoinem [~swoog@198-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 08:27:14 WordWow [~WordWow@adsl-76-233-38-184.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:29:08 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:29:08 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 08:32:28 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:33:11 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-218-110.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:33:25 good morning 08:34:25 Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:34:40 Hey, any good Idea how to make a C library that uses reference counting for its own memory management comfortably accessible from CL? Comfortably here means avoiding explicit referencing and dereferencing if possible. 08:35:03 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.126.76] has joined #lisp 08:36:12 I thought about using finalizers, but a) people constantly tell that finalizers are evil and b) trivial-garbage says I shouldn't try to access the object that is finalized, because it may already have been GCed on some CLs 08:37:06 good morning everyone 08:37:21 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@198-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:42:46 why *are* finalizers evil? 08:43:14 Neronus: your finalizer can close over the info it needs. 08:43:23 such as the reference to decrement. 08:43:28 (and possibly free) 08:44:44 Ralith: The only scenario I can think of is that you reference the object to be finalized again. In that case you can probably cause memory retention problems 08:44:58 what? 08:46:10 H4ns [5ddba119@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.219.161.25] has joined #lisp 08:46:28 Ralith: Finalizers are evil because: (defparameter *evil* ) (set-finalizer (list 1 2 3) (lambda (o) (setf *evil* o))). If (list 1 2 3) is now finalized, then *evil* will point to this list after the finalizer has run. I turned garbage into gold :) 08:46:38 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.126.76] has joined #lisp 08:47:18 Neronus: that sounds like an argument for "don't touch the finalized object" not "finalizers are evil" 08:47:29 Ralith: Yupp, I agree 08:48:30 can anyone come up with an argument other than that, then? 08:49:49 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.126.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:49:55 Another argument is that you don't have any guarantees when (or if) finalizers will run. But I don't care so much about that, as I don't want to close files by finalizers; I just want to do some memory management (which is the GCs job anyway) 08:50:01 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-218-233.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:51:30 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-155-227.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 08:52:37 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-154.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:52:42 that makes sense 08:53:01 and is less "finalizers are evil" than "finalizers should not be relied upon for certain types of use" 08:53:06 Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.134.61] has joined #lisp 08:53:21 Hi all! 08:53:45 (it still seems like a finalizer to close a file wouldn't be a bad thing, so long as it wasn't relied upon; better to have a handle leak be harmless than not) 08:53:53 (more likely to be harmless, that is) 08:54:24 lemoinem [~swoog@198-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:15 I guess that I can safely use finalizers for my purpose 09:00:13 -!- WordWow [~WordWow@adsl-76-233-38-184.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:00:30 LoG1c\0x\ [~sean.john@unaffiliated/bitch333z] has joined #lisp 09:00:33 If I close over the object to be finalized, then I wonder if it will ever be garbage collected. E.g., (let ((l (list 1 2 3))) (set-finalizer l (lambda (o) (declare (ignore o)) (do-some-magic-with l)))) 09:01:00 don't close over the object 09:01:02 sbcl says: "Arrange for the designated function to be called when there are no more references to object, including references in function itself." 09:01:03 close over the info you need to finalize 09:01:22 Ralith: Right, makes sense 09:01:49 finalizer is for the lisp object, and you close over the foreign data that identifies what the lisp object wrapped 09:02:06 WordWow [~WordWow@adsl-76-233-38-184.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:10:51 -!- replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:10:55 bitch333z [~sean.john@unaffiliated/bitch333z] has joined #lisp 09:10:59 -!- bitch333z [~sean.john@unaffiliated/bitch333z] has left #lisp 09:11:42 -!- LoG1c\0x\ [~sean.john@unaffiliated/bitch333z] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:13:02 mobydick [~textual@124-171-183-127.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:15:34 xan_ [~xan@65.Red-95-122-110.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:18:56 hey all I have a bit of a noob question. Im setting up a VPS for a web-app using LISP and I can connect to my VPS via SSH, launch CCL and HUNCHENTOOT and serve web pages, however when I close CCL and disconnect SSH HUNCHENTOOT is disconnected. 09:19:09 mobydick: use tmux 09:19:19 So my question is how do you keep the LISP environment and HUNCHENTOOT running all the time? 09:19:38 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-qaqjzsyuegesjkmo] has joined #lisp 09:20:10 mobydick: you could use detachtty 09:20:16 mobydick: tmux is a terminal multiplexer program. you start hunchentoot inside of a tmux session and then detach from the session. you can also start the session from a system startup script. 09:20:34 mobydick: you can then re-attach to the running session when you ssh -into your vps. 09:20:38 detachtty, screen, tmux, ... 09:21:06 ok thanks heaps should give me plenty to go on 09:21:17 mobydick: enjoy 09:21:20 i didnt even realise this was something I had to consider until right now haha 09:21:39 mobydick: if you're feeling lucky you might even use xpra to keep an emacs X11 instance alive there, that's connected to your lisp via swank 09:21:48 xpra is a screen/tmux for X11 09:21:59 i was like 'hang on this isnt going to work unless I leave my computer connected infinitely.. and that kind of defys the point of the VPS' haha 09:22:21 although I'd recommend just using your lisp within screen/tmux, and connect with swank as needed via SSH 09:23:21 yep that sounds good.. i've got the swank part working so that should make things a bit easier 09:23:23 gtrak`` [~gtrak```@173.13.240.205] has joined #lisp 09:23:30 a vnc server could work too 09:23:33 hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:23:42 -!- gtrak [~gtrak```@173.13.240.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:24:36 lnostdal [~Lars@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 09:26:25 Guest95720 [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 09:27:23 Kryztof: xpra uses xvfb, but works per-window, and is a bit faster than vnc AFAIK 09:27:59 does it really make sense to suggest a way to detach an x-server to someone who is looking for ways to detach a lisp session on a vps? 09:28:15 no, it does not. 09:28:56 does it make sense to give a broad range of possibilities so that someone can later educate themselves about the possible options? 09:28:58 yes, it does 09:29:22 the day #lisp turns into a basic support channel is the day I'm out of here 09:29:29 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.91.1] 09:29:55 i don't think so. i think it is good to try to understand what the learning objective is and relate the answer to that. 09:31:13 and you think that suggesting other stuff is just a random splurging of ideas with no forethought? 09:31:21 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 09:31:57 -!- WordWow [~WordWow@adsl-76-233-38-184.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:33:06 not at all. i just find it unfriendly to confuse newcomers by suggesting things that are clearly out of scope, judging from the question. but i do agree, this is no basic support channel. everybody can do whatever they like. 09:33:40 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:34:04 a newcomer often has a bunch of unstated requirements 09:34:05 anyway 09:34:17 WordWow [~WordWow@adsl-76-233-38-184.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:34:18 gtrak [~gtrak```@173.13.240.205] has joined #lisp 09:34:18 yeah. back to hacking :) 09:35:42 -!- gtrak`` [~gtrak```@173.13.240.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:36:37 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-154.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:42:08 -!- Guest95720 is now known as nha 09:42:38 -!- nha is now known as Guest3771 09:42:49 -!- Guest3771 is now known as nha 09:44:41 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:45:05 peterhil` [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has joined #lisp 09:45:36 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.2.203] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:45:55 -!- WordWow [~WordWow@adsl-76-233-38-184.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:46:02 nanoc [~conanhome@186.157.178.47] has joined #lisp 09:46:50 aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 09:48:07 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@186.157.178.47] has quit [Client Quit] 09:48:20 DamienCassou [~cassou@2001:638:807:20d:7a84:3cff:fe05:3a9d] has joined #lisp 09:48:25 hi 09:48:28 WordWow [~WordWow@adsl-76-233-38-184.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:48:53 is there an high-level to iterate a list and do something between each iteration (but not at the end)? 09:48:56 -!- tiglog [~topeak@61.149.230.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:49:37 DamienCassou: process the first element, then start a loop for the rest of the list, doing "something" before processing the current element 09:50:01 in Smalltalk we have #do:separatedBy: which allows one to do something like: {'hello' 'world' '!'} do: [:each | self print: each] separatedBy: [self print: '\n'] 09:50:09 iterate has a (first-time-p) and a (first-iteration-p) construct 09:51:09 *attila_lendvai* is reminded that he should finish up hu.dwim.reiterate and advertise that instead... :) 09:51:24 flip214: I know plenty of 'tricks' to do that :-). I'm just looking for a function which has this built-in 09:51:26 nanoc [~conanhome@186.157.178.47] has joined #lisp 09:51:34 DamienCassou: the answer is "no" :) 09:51:39 -!- agumonkey [~agu@34.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:51:51 attila_lendvai: don't know iterate 09:51:58 ok, thanks 09:52:01 attila_lendvai: where's the wish list for reiterate? 09:52:21 DataLinkDKT [~DataLinkD@120.153.170.155] has joined #lisp 09:55:25 I have started to implement a DSL to build slides in CommonLisp (mainly to relearn lisp). From this code: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/504523/ I can get this pdf: http://damien.cassou.free.fr/clos.pdf 09:56:05 gensym [~user@dslc-082-082-099-088.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:56:32 flip214: it's a notes.txt in my repo. but the reason I started it is that iterate is based on a hackish walker, and we have hu.dwim.walker which is an order of magnitudes more precise 09:56:40 DamienCassou: looks shiny! is that with cl-pdf? 09:56:58 tiglog [~topeak@61.149.230.38] has joined #lisp 09:57:01 on annoyance of me is that code locations doesn't work in the body of iterate, because it doesn't keep the cons cell identities at expansion 09:57:38 /on/one/ 09:58:20 H4ns: no, I'm generating latex/beamer. I also have written some emacs lisp to show one generated slide when "C-c v" is pressed within a (slide ...) expression 09:58:43 DamienCassou: i see how you wanted to get back to the source of a function for that dsl. maybe you really want a reader macro that is basically ignored by emacs, so that you can use its source formatting capabilities. 09:59:55 I don't think I need this feature for the DSL (I've not used it yet). But I wanted it for the slide content itself 10:00:16 ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:00:35 -!- DataLinkDKT [~DataLinkD@120.153.170.155] has quit [Quit: Bye] 10:01:23 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-tckholvillzuaajy] has joined #lisp 10:01:23 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-tckholvillzuaajy] has quit [Changing host] 10:01:23 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 10:02:02 do you think there might be any interest in this DSL? Should I invest some time to release it? 10:02:51 DamienCassou: well, from my perspective, there is little use in using a sexpr-based dsl for slides unless it makes it easy to format code examples well. 10:04:11 H4ns: I don't do anything for formatting yet. I let the work to #'format itself 10:04:44 H4ns: something I like about this DSL is that it computes the answers automatically by evaluating the code in the slide 10:04:57 (this can be overriden if necessary) 10:05:16 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 10:05:27 DamienCassou: i mean: the code examples are quoted strings, and that makes it hard to work with them. 10:05:46 -!- ihyoyoung [raster@enlightenment2.osuosl.org] has quit [Quit: quit] 10:05:50 DamienCassou: (hard as in "not easier than with any other slide syntax") 10:06:15 ihyoyoung [raster@enlightenment2.osuosl.org] has joined #lisp 10:06:28 well, in fact harder because embedded double quotes must be escaped. 10:06:53 H4ns: I use quoted strings only when I don't like default formatting. I think someone could implement a way to avoid using them more often 10:07:13 dalecooper [~chris@tuev.customer.cgn.de.colt.net] has joined #lisp 10:07:25 -!- mobydick [~textual@124-171-183-127.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:07:43 H4ns: typically for defun. I was too lazy to have a deeper look at how to configure #'format to do the things I want 10:07:49 DamienCassou: right, and what i suggested was that you could add a reader macro that faithfully captures the formatting of the code that follows. 10:08:27 DamienCassou: there is no way to reproduce the original formatting from a s-expression that passed through the reader, no matter what people try to tell you about the pretty printer. 10:08:41 H4ns: might be better indeed. I might do that as it will force me to have a look at reader macros again so I can talk about them during the lecture 10:09:05 -!- dalecooper [~chris@tuev.customer.cgn.de.colt.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:09:22 dalecooper [~chris@tuev.customer.cgn.de.colt.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:31 H4ns: I agree, it's lost. But it's certainly possible to configure #'format so that it pretty-prints defun and defmacro properly 10:11:26 for some value of "properly", that is the case. 10:11:33 H4ns: :-) 10:11:58 H4ns: reader macros keep spacing information? You get a string to parse? 10:12:21 DamienCassou: reader macros operate at read time. they can access the source file input stream. 10:13:18 -!- gko [~gko@111.81.75.30] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:13:32 DamienCassou: so, for example, you can save the current position of the input file, then call cl:read to read the next expression. then you have the file position of the end of the source block. 10:14:35 DamienCassou: (you have it because you can call cl:file-position on the source stream, that is) 10:16:42 DamienCassou: that won't work if you have #. in the source block. look at http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/v_rd_eva.htm. 10:17:45 H4ns: thanks. So I guess I would create slide like:http://pastebin.com/gmES2Tdx 10:18:07 benkard [~benkard@2001:4ca0:0:f208:a450:e9d0:24:faf4] has joined #lisp 10:19:01 DamienCassou: no, you'd indent the source block properly, that'd be the whole point of the reader macro (i.e. the #[ would not be flush left, but indented with the (lisp 10:20:51 H4ns: how would you indent defun? like this http://pastebin.com/cw3VBg2U ? 10:22:00 DamienCassou: again, no. the (defun would be indented to the #[, not flush left. 10:22:31 -!- benkard [~benkard@2001:4ca0:0:f208:a450:e9d0:24:faf4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:22:36 DamienCassou: my 0.02: having a DSL where it's possible to evaluate lisp code is very powerful, and that applies to a dsl for slides... and note that there's a CL reader written by pjb that can read CL code retaining spacing information and stuff like that 10:22:47 benkard [~benkard@002608dc9535.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 10:22:49 H4ns: ohh, looks great. This is what emacs does by default :-) 10:23:00 DamienCassou: also, the (lisp seems redundant. 10:23:33 attila_lendvai: are you talking about ibcl? 10:24:06 pjb: ping 10:24:09 DamienCassou: http://darcs.informatimago.com/darcs/public/lisp/common-lisp/reader.lisp 10:24:29 H4ns: not really because it can be parametrised (do you want to see the answer to this code? do you want to have a pause after that?...) 10:24:46 *attila_lendvai* needs to re-login (all praise linux, the technology of the sixties...) 10:24:47 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.111.128] has joined #lisp 10:24:48 DamienCassou: i need my pause now :) 10:24:53 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:25:16 H4ns: you can just call (pause) :-D 10:25:26 rwiker [~rwiker@209.80-202-32.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 10:28:11 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@62-84-55-107.customers.almanet.kz] has joined #lisp 10:28:11 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@62-84-55-107.customers.almanet.kz] has quit [Changing host] 10:28:11 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:28:20 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.126.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:29:01 rstandy [~rastandy@93-63-185-248.ip29.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:29:48 attila_lendvai: how would pjb's reader help me? 10:30:18 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 10:30:26 DamienCassou: only when/if you want to read CL code retaining the original indentation 10:30:30 zomgbie [~jesus@212095007042.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 10:31:20 hello! I'd like to use lisp-magick, but while loading package I get "attempt to call an undefined alien function" 10:31:36 I use debian, and have installed all libmagick* packaged, what else do I need? 10:31:44 attila_lendvai: ok, I could use it to read the definitions of slides so that when a slide defines lisp code, the indentation would be the same in the slide definition and in the pdf. right? 10:33:02 -!- lnostdal [~Lars@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:33:04 DamienCassou: you can even install it on a reader macro, and take the over reading of the specially "quoted" lisp forms 10:33:13 s/the// 10:33:46 attila_lendvai: looks interesting, thanks 10:35:18 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.232.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:35:46 zomgbie_ [~jesus@212095007083.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 10:36:09 DamienCassou: you're welcome. and don't let yourself get demotivated by comments... if you need inspiration on how powerful DSL's mixed with "normal" lisp code can be, then look at screamer. it's basically a prolog DSL that seamlessly integrates with "normal" (non-backtracking) lisp code 10:37:09 attila_lendvai: thank you very much. At least I have some fun :-). And I also need that to better understand lisp and present it correctly during the next lecture 10:38:55 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@212095007042.public.telering.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:39:06 -!- zomgbie_ [~jesus@212095007083.public.telering.at] has quit [Client Quit] 10:39:37 chenbing [~user@60.176.150.43] has joined #lisp 10:42:23 -!- lbc [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:43:03 regarding screamer ... is that a typo? "which does not unfortunately currently support the full ANSI Common Lisp" 10:43:11 http://nikodemus.github.com/screamer/, see 2.6 10:44:36 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 10:45:25 zomgbie [~jesus@212095007083.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 10:46:05 -!- tiglog [~topeak@61.149.230.38] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:46:32 flip214: what's unclear about it? 10:46:57 integers aren't necessarily eq, right? 10:47:07 Ralith: right 10:47:18 no numeric types are? 10:48:01 "does not unfortunately"? Isn't "unfortunately does not" better english? At least I'd find that easier to understand ... 10:48:38 flip214: ah, not a typo but a grammar error :) 10:49:04 flip214: sorry, yes, you're right. my brain skipped the error looking for a typo 10:49:25 well, whatever ... I didn't understand the sentence and had to guess, until my brain managed back-tracking 10:50:22 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 10:50:37 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:53:10 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181056239.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:53:38 drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:54:00 -!- waveman [~tim@124.170.43.134] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:55:30 -!- bsod1 [~sinan@88.240.135.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:55:47 ocharles_ [u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vbszhoqtphajjurf] has joined #lisp 10:56:05 flip214: "does not, unfortunately," would also work 10:56:06 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.114.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:56:52 yeah, right 10:57:25 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:58:03 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 11:00:42 lnostdal [~Lars@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 11:03:47 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 11:03:54 -!- WordWow [~WordWow@adsl-76-233-38-184.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:07:38 WordWow [~WordWow@adsl-76-233-38-184.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:10:02 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:11:03 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.92.106] has joined #lisp 11:11:44 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:14:32 rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 11:19:56 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.157.144] has joined #lisp 11:20:32 -!- benkard [~benkard@002608dc9535.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: benkard] 11:20:58 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:21:31 -!- H4ns [5ddba119@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.219.161.25] has quit [Quit: lunchtime] 11:22:45 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@2001:6f8:1215:ba:1::77] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:23:00 -!- whoops [u549@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-znnenajhocnrogzq] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:23:35 -!- ocharles_ [u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vbszhoqtphajjurf] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:23:40 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@242.Red-88-24-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:26:13 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@186.157.178.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:28:24 One question, any idea why Common Lisp uses verbal functions for some mathematical operations but mathematical operators for others? 11:28:47 nanoc [~conanhome@186.157.178.47] has joined #lisp 11:29:06 e.g. (expt 2 24) instead of say (** 2 24) ; I am unable to write a caret on this terminal 11:29:06 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:30:08 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 11:31:12 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 11:34:50 Iceland_jack: maybe back in the day ^ was not used for what it is used now? 11:35:29 Hm, could be 11:35:44 I don't think it's a bad thing mind you 11:36:00 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 11:36:05 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-nzcbqtlsdcnirecu] has left #lisp 11:36:14 -!- xok [~xok@78.139.162.169] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:37:04 whoops [u549@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-imcngkgbzbtdsblr] has joined #lisp 11:37:25 McRibbit [~user@zaza1.ida.liu.se] has joined #lisp 11:37:48 I thought that they may have wanted to have the functions be more verbally descriptive, but then why not use (plus ...) instead of (+ ...) 11:38:47 well, ordinary arithmetic functions can be written with simple symbols found on keyboards "in line" with the numbers 11:39:04 not so with exponentiation and square rooting 11:39:07 in line? 11:39:28 well, exponentiation eved does not have a symbol of its own 11:39:37 just write the exponent above the number 11:39:40 Not as such, no 11:39:45 I suppose you're right 11:39:46 not above, but superscript 11:40:26 oh, but 11:40:28 what about modulus? 11:40:42 what about it? 11:40:45 nitro_id_ [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-224-186.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:40:47 well.. I suppose % isn't really a mathematical notation.. never mind 11:41:23 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 11:42:16 Coming from C originally I tend to forget Common Lisp's nomenclature of the bitwise operators 11:42:32 hanshoi [hanshoi@kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 11:42:42 :) thank you for your responses 11:42:57 log{ior,xor,and,not,test,bitp,etc...} 11:43:21 Thanks Xach :) 11:43:31 The "ior" is a nice touch, I think. 11:43:48 my first instinct is always bit{{i,x}or,and,not,etc.} 11:45:14 *Xach* mostly uses logior and logand 11:45:33 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Quit: goodbye blue sky, goodbye] 11:46:08 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 11:48:39 ocharles_ [u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fjwjkwpvqdkkbtrb] has joined #lisp 11:48:52 coming from C, shouldn't you be wondering why Lisp doesn't use ^ for xor? 11:49:11 it's not like C has an infix operator for exponentiation 11:49:29 Kryztof: I wondered that as well, yes 11:50:00 only (PIPE a b) would look strange ; again, no pipe 11:50:28 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:52:16 the "log*" naming always feels a little funny vs. C-family, where the distinction is "logical" vs "bitwise", and log* are the *bitwise* ones. 11:52:35 -!- DamienCassou [~cassou@2001:638:807:20d:7a84:3cff:fe05:3a9d] has left #lisp 11:55:12 agumonkey [~agu@34.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 11:55:35 spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 11:56:13 ^for xor may not be the most widely known operator in C :-) 11:57:16 Xach: I have a suggestion for a quicklisp library, if you don't mind... 11:58:18 it's a wrapper for kyoto-cabinet (key/value store, like Berkeley DB); https://github.com/kraison/cl-kyoto-cabinet 11:58:22 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@212095007083.public.telering.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:00:50 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@c-67-180-54-112.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:01:07 -!- nitro_id_ [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-224-186.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:04:25 -!- kruft [~user@c-98-214-105-38.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:04:45 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM1-115-10-120.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:06:00 rtoym [~chatzilla@c-67-180-54-112.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:44 sacho [~sacho@194.141.26.111] has joined #lisp 12:09:22 kruft [~user@c-98-214-105-38.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:10:35 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM1-115-10-120.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:14:18 is lispbuilder-sdl maintained? 12:16:07 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@94.144.63.15] has joined #lisp 12:16:19 It seems maintained enough 12:18:24 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:18:48 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #lisp 12:20:49 rstandy` [~rastandy@93-63-185-248.ip29.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:22:38 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:23:16 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.224] has joined #lisp 12:24:23 -!- rstandy [~rastandy@93-63-185-248.ip29.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:28:14 pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has joined #lisp 12:29:57 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM1-115-10-120.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:30:29 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM1-115-10-120.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:31:24 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:32:23 waltwhite [~waltwhite@113-9-190-109.dsl.ovh.fr] has joined #lisp 12:33:04 What are the best options for writing API documentation? I've looked at several packages, and seem to have decided on David Lichteblau's atdoc. 12:33:53 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM1-115-10-120.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:34:20 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 12:35:49 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.247.208.81] has joined #lisp 12:39:15 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.247.208.81] has quit [Client Quit] 12:39:38 cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.232.190] has joined #lisp 12:42:48 -!- ocharles_ [u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fjwjkwpvqdkkbtrb] has quit [] 12:45:01 hey #lisp, something strange 12:45:16 I tried: (defun who's-evil ()) which surprisingly worked 12:45:33 and defined a function WHO that takes 2 arguments(??) 12:46:23 juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 12:46:55 H4ns [57bd7028@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.189.112.40] has joined #lisp 12:47:05 and if I do: (defun who's-evil (a) (print a)), WHO also takes two arguments but complains about (WHO 1 2) saying: that the "function A is undefined" 12:47:26 Iceland_jack: ' is a terminating macro character, meaning it ends reading of the current token 12:47:26 I expect that you're in implementation-specific territory 12:47:37 as for example ) does 12:48:07 so it basically splits it into something like (defun who s-evil () ...)? 12:48:31 but that fails though.. (as expected) 12:48:31 I think it will have split into (defun who (quote s-evil () ...) 12:48:42 huh.... 12:48:49 df_aldur: yes you're probably right 12:49:25 -!- sacho [~sacho@194.141.26.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:49:36 Ah 12:49:38 I've got it 12:49:44 you were right df_aldur 12:50:19 (defun who'a (print (cons quote a))) and (who 1 2) == (1 2) 12:50:39 so (defun who'a ...) == (defun who (quote a) ...) 12:50:50 Fascinating :) 12:51:25 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.232.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:52:41 tarmil [~user@business-178-48-18-229.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 12:56:25 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 12:57:31 -!- xan_ [~xan@65.Red-95-122-110.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:59:34 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@242.Red-88-24-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 12:59:57 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@242.Red-88-24-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:19 nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:01:25 rwiker: hmm, i think i tried that at one point, i'll take a look again. 13:02:20 rwiker: ahh, i need to build & install the C library. i'll look into it. 13:03:53 great, thanks! 13:03:53 tiglog [~topeak@118.186.202.56] has joined #lisp 13:05:09 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-218-110.wbs.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:06:00 hmm, "release notes" link on abcl homepage goes to 0.27 13:07:07 jtza8 [~jtza8@41.208.218.110] has joined #lisp 13:07:19 dsa 13:08:57 -!- nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:10:11 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@198-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:10:40 lemoinem [~swoog@205.233.80.163] has joined #lisp 13:12:15 ehu [~ehuels@109.33.15.161] has joined #lisp 13:12:22 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:15:58 -!- pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:16:06 + 13:21:22 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.33.15.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:23:13 benkard [~benkard@141.84.69.67] has joined #lisp 13:23:59 iwillig [~ivan@ool-ad03c1a0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:22 -!- McRibbit [~user@zaza1.ida.liu.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:28:34 rwiker: it will be in the next release 13:31:12 bsod1 [~sinan@88.243.249.181] has joined #lisp 13:33:34 Is it possible to produce Windows executables with SBCL? 13:34:21 Bahman: yes. 13:34:32 Xach: thanks, again! 13:34:52 it works pretty much like how it works on the unix 13:34:59 Xach: Excellent. I doubted it because SBCL has no Windoze port yet. 13:35:39 Bahman: Is that an ironic joke? 13:35:52 On the internet, it can be hard for new friends to know if you are being ironically ignorant or just plain ignorant. 13:36:11 Xach: No. I just looked at the SF page for SBCL and it listed only *nix platforms hence I thought so. 13:36:35 it runs "experimentally" on windows, according to sbcl.org. not sure how experimental it is though 13:36:50 Xach: Count me as plain ignorant this time then :-) 13:37:10 Bahman: there are still some kittehs of death afaik, especially on 32bit windows 13:37:18 akovalenko maintains a nice windows version of sbcl that will be added to the main version of sbcl sometime soon 13:37:29 there's also at least one unofficial win64 port I think 13:37:31 and there is a less-developed version of windows sbcl that is part of the main version 13:37:49 https://github.com/akovalenko/sbcl-win32-threads i suppose 13:37:55 Excellent. Thank you folks. 13:41:21 I've used buildapp on windows and it works 13:43:53 Why isn't EQ n-ary? 13:44:34 (= 1 1 1) returns T, (GT 1 2 3) returns T but (eq 'test 'test 'test) complains about too many arguments 13:45:21 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-206-3.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 13:45:48 Probably because EQL isn't. 13:46:18 Was this a conscious decision? 13:46:58 oops, s/GT/LT/ 13:48:00 -!- WordWow [~WordWow@adsl-76-233-38-184.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:48:32 WordWow [~WordWow@adsl-76-233-38-184.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:36 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.111.128] has quit [Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)] 13:48:59 borkman [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:25 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-206-3.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:57:30 -!- duomo [~duomo@cpe-69-204-169-245.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:58:55 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.111.128] has joined #lisp 13:59:36 Iceland_jack: very likely that it was. 14:00:00 Xach: It feels idiosyncratic when compared to other comparison functions though 14:00:09 like, =, LT, GT 14:00:33 All of the equal functions (eq{,ual,l,...}) are binary 14:00:36 Iceland_jack: gigamonkey has a very interesting talk about the email discussion that was conducted and archived during the standardization process. every decision was analyzed in detail. decisions were made with full consideration of available options and possibilities. 14:00:58 Iceland_jack: only numerical comparisons work on multiple arguments. 14:01:06 Why? 14:01:10 I don't know. 14:01:14 It is consistent, though. 14:02:06 One point of the talk was that there is an impression, from our enlightened perspective, that some decisions in CL were made because they just didn't know any better, but in view of the archive, peter didn't think that was the case. 14:02:08 I feel like (eq a b c) should work as (and (eq a b) (eq a c)) 14:02:23 Change how you feel. 14:02:33 Iceland_jack: should the last one imply that (eq a c)? 14:03:02 jdz: in the same way as (= a b c) works 14:03:04 -!- borkman [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 14:03:25 -!- agumonkey [~agu@34.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:03:42 jdz: it should. 'eq should be transitive 14:05:33 well, call me stupid, but i think that comparing two things fore eq'ness is not hard to make atomic, but for more... 14:05:59 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.224] has joined #lisp 14:06:00 Xach: I don't want you to feel like I'm being flippant and I didn't intend to say that the decisions made in CL were arbitrary 14:06:08 so sorry for that 14:06:19 it is a fair question, though 14:06:20 jimmyrcom [~fold@adsl-75-53-33-186.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:36 jdz: apart from that. you should assume a b c to be immutable during 'eq evaluation 14:06:37 -!- X-Scale [email@89.180.165.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:07:27 i personally don't know why = is n-ary but eq etc are not, but also never thought about it that much 14:07:44 spacefrogg: and at some point in time it might have been considered not worth enough to impose on implementors. 14:08:04 Iceland_jack: It's a good question, but I don't know the answer, and it is not going to change. I wish you luck in finding the answer. 14:08:18 you need to remember that CL is the result of a syncretic process. 14:08:18 Xach: :) I'm not hell bent in changing anything 14:08:21 Iceland_jack: I recommend changing how you feel regardless of whether you find out why or not. 14:08:49 Xach: I'm used to a little cognitive disonance :) 14:08:50 or just define your own n-ary function and use that 14:08:51 It is essentially a hodgepodge of lisp dialects at the time slapped together, smashed with a hammer, and then smoothed out a bit. 14:09:08 -!- WordWow [~WordWow@adsl-76-233-38-184.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:09:10 dsp_: I personally found Common Lisp's value comparison very awesome, in the way that GT and LT measure whether numbers are monotonically {in,de}creasing 14:09:36 WordWow [~WordWow@adsl-76-233-38-184.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:00 i'm more of a schemer than a CLer, so i've not even encountered GT and LT yet. CL is *huge* compared to what i'm used to 14:10:01 (defun between-1-100 (n) (LE 1 n 100)) 14:10:09 dsp_: sorry, my keyboard is messed up 14:10:22 just exchange them with the normal characters :) 14:10:28 oh ha 14:10:42 i'm also tired, and didn't make the connection 14:10:57 I can't blame you for not knowing every possible function :) 14:11:14 ...how can a preson know of all function 14:11:16 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:19 person 14:11:35 There are fewer than 1000. It's like memorizing books in the gigabible. 14:12:03 Iceland_jack: what's the matter with your kbd? 14:12:40 chenbing: I don't have X atm and GNU screen is messing with everything 14:13:31 Iceland_jack: I don't understand your meaning. you mean startx crush? 14:13:41 How is it relevant? 14:15:01 -!- WordWow [~WordWow@adsl-76-233-38-184.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:15:04 i mistype crush ,it's crash 14:15:27 WordWow [~WordWow@adsl-76-233-38-184.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:40 nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:47 G'morning all. 14:18:02 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:18:27 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 14:26:16 Good night all 14:26:37 good night chenbing 14:31:08 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-139-160.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:26 brown [user@nat/google/x-kibwytfgzpudrzct] has joined #lisp 14:33:53 tritchey [~tritchey@12.207.196.2] has joined #lisp 14:33:53 -!- brown is now known as Guest81653 14:34:20 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 14:35:44 tritchey_ [~tritchey@12.207.196.2] has joined #lisp 14:35:44 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@12.207.196.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:35:44 -!- tritchey_ is now known as tritchey 14:36:56 kleppari_ [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 14:37:17 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:37:46 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:48 superflit [~superflit@71-208-211-246.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:21 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:39:06 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@41.208.218.110] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:40:30 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.92.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:42:11 Hi, I'm looking for a lisp company to develop a website for an european scientific organization called CMCC (Centro Euro-Mediterraneo per i Cambiamenti Climatici) 14:42:21 anyone interested? 14:42:40 or... anyone could please point me to a good company? 14:43:04 tech.coop, maybe? 14:43:20 rstandy`: you might also want to explain what the site roughly needs, in terms of features. 14:44:25 yes, I have a document with the site requirements, I can share it with anyone is interested 14:44:59 roughly I need something between Plone and Wordpress 14:45:44 -!- psilord [~psilord@76.201.144.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:46:08 without the Plone complexity and with a much better language than PHP 14:47:10 I would really like to have lisp under my hands 14:47:24 McRibbit [~user@zaza4.ida.liu.se] has joined #lisp 14:47:40 but I don't know where to find companies to do the work 14:48:10 nyef: thanks I'll check it out 14:48:19 any alternative? 14:48:29 rstandy`: http://lispjobs.wordpress.com/ 14:48:43 (check the About page) 14:49:37 rstandy`` [~rastandy@93-63-185-248.ip29.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:51:28 rstandy``: I dunno if you missed my message, but you could email the people at http://lispjobs.wordpress.com/about/ so they can post it 14:53:15 -!- rstandy` [~rastandy@93-63-185-248.ip29.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:54:10 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@209.80-202-32.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:54:36 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.92.106] has joined #lisp 14:54:49 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@94.144.63.15] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:56:51 coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:18 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 14:57:28 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@12.207.196.2] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 14:57:42 TomH__ [4b1be7fa@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.27.231.250] has joined #lisp 14:58:28 -!- TomH__ [4b1be7fa@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.27.231.250] has left #lisp 14:58:32 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 14:59:12 felideon: yes thank you very much felideon 15:00:12 -!- hugod [~hugod@70.24.180.190] has quit [Quit: hugod] 15:00:45 tmh [4b1be7fa@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 15:03:03 Greetings lispers 15:05:49 dlowe [dlowe@nat/google/x-ptdpvesupaxtyjfr] has joined #lisp 15:05:53 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-218-110.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:06:37 Untrustworthy [~foo@c-75-70-167-114.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:01 agumonkey [~agu@34.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:09 but there isn't a company already offering this kind of service? 15:10:56 rstandy``: I don't think I've heard of one. 15:11:56 Xach: that's sad 15:12:25 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-eicbwigpccueujbd] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:12:51 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:12:54 rstandy``: It's ok, I don't mind not hearing of everything that might be. 15:13:12 Xach: :-) 15:13:14 ... What's sad about it? It should be EXCITING! Just think, here's an opportunity to try and make some money by providing a service. 15:14:35 nyef: that's sad for me because I now should look for a php web company :-( 15:14:49 doesn't tech.coop do that? 15:15:12 ... There is that, too. Did you check out tech.coop? 15:15:55 I'll check them out, but I would like to have more choices 15:15:56 *sykopomp* would love to help develop whatever needs to get developed! 15:16:09 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 15:16:10 yeah, they offer sbcl 15:16:41 mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:17:35 -!- WordWow [~WordWow@adsl-76-233-38-184.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:17:52 rstandy``: my impression is that if you try to reach out widely to lisp people, you will get responses. 15:18:00 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:18:11 tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-30-61.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:54 The responses might be dismissive, but it will be a response none-the-less. :-P 15:19:08 heh 15:19:08 WordWow [WordWow@adsl-76-233-38-184.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:27 Well, if the message is "I want to pay someone to make a website for me in Lisp", I think you will get some serious people who are available for the task. 15:19:38 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-154.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:19:52 Xach: well it's exactly what I want :D 15:20:12 rstandy``: I think lispjobs is the easiest way to do that. 15:20:37 I believe several people here got their lisp job via lispjobs. 15:21:16 ok 15:21:18 got it 15:21:32 do you think comp.lang.lisp is a good place to ask too? 15:22:20 rstandy``: I don't think so. 15:23:04 What about LispForum? 15:23:41 Xach: why? It's full of trolls? 15:23:49 tmh: oh I'll check that too 15:24:21 rstandy``: I was asking, I'm not sure it has any jobs, would be a good place for job announcements, though. 15:24:37 ok 15:24:41 rstandy``: No, I just don't think it would reach a very big audience of available lisp hackers. 15:24:50 rstandy``: I don't think it would hurt to post there, but I don't think it is particularly "good" 15:25:50 ok, I think I have already enough places to ask further 15:26:30 as always, thanks for your help 15:26:48 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:31:38 rwiker_ [~rwiker@209.80-202-32.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:31:47 -!- akovalenko [~anton@77.51.3.36] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:34:22 ehu [~ehuels@109.34.54.96] has joined #lisp 15:35:19 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-139-160.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 15:35:39 anyone has an example of opening a stream to serial port on *nix (from SBCL)? 15:35:59 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM1-115-10-120.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:39:30 p_l: I don't, but I do have one for opening a stream to a USB device. 15:39:37 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-177-149.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:39:55 hugod [~hugod@207.164.135.98] has joined #lisp 15:40:51 p_l: It's a fairly straightforward WITH-OPEN-FILE, really. Actually setting the parameters is more of an IOCTL thing, and that's trickier. 15:41:27 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-177-149.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:41:47 nyef: it is often easiest to set up the device with stty and then have the application not bother with ioctls 15:42:23 Fair enough. Either way, not part of opening the stream. 15:44:05 it's crazy how serial port control is wired into the core of the mechanism used to send data to an xterm. :) 15:44:11 akovalenko [~anton@77.51.3.36] has joined #lisp 15:45:41 -!- hugod [~hugod@207.164.135.98] has quit [Quit: hugod] 15:46:32 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-206-3.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 15:46:58 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:49:13 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 15:50:08 hugod [~hugod@207.164.135.98] has joined #lisp 15:51:06 -!- hugod [~hugod@207.164.135.98] has quit [Client Quit] 15:51:07 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-218-110.wbs.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:51:21 gtrak`` [~gtrak```@173.13.240.205] has joined #lisp 15:51:22 -!- blackwol` is now known as blackwolf 15:51:47 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 15:52:03 -!- tmh [4b1be7fa@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 15:52:06 sacho [~sacho@90.154.214.110] has joined #lisp 15:52:38 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.247.201.74] has joined #lisp 15:54:01 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.247.201.74] has left #lisp 15:54:46 benkard_ [~benkard@141.84.69.67] has joined #lisp 15:54:54 -!- gtrak [~gtrak```@173.13.240.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:54:56 hugod [~hugod@207.164.135.98] has joined #lisp 15:54:56 -!- hugod [~hugod@207.164.135.98] has quit [Client Quit] 15:55:01 gtrak [~gtrak```@173.13.240.205] has joined #lisp 15:56:06 -!- gtrak`` [~gtrak```@173.13.240.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:56:37 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 15:57:37 -!- benkard [~benkard@141.84.69.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:57:37 -!- benkard_ is now known as benkard 15:58:15 -!- tiglog [~topeak@118.186.202.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:58:34 ... i got serial port to work, but not the hw connected to it :/ 15:58:59 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-50-254.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 15:59:14 Wrong port configuration, dead hardware, wedged hardware, broken cable, something else? 16:01:24 p_l: there are usb<->serial adapters 16:05:00 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 8.0/20111102223350]] 16:05:40 hugod [~hugod@207.164.135.98] has joined #lisp 16:08:06 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:08:35 apparently it was mechanical issue 16:09:03 -!- dalecooper [~chris@tuev.customer.cgn.de.colt.net] has quit [Quit: dalecooper] 16:09:14 while we got the rest to work, there's one limit stopper that isn't hit before the servo goes outside its range 16:09:36 cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.232.190] has joined #lisp 16:10:54 tiglog [~topeak@114.112.44.159] has joined #lisp 16:11:01 -!- hugod [~hugod@207.164.135.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:12:17 -!- tiglog [~topeak@114.112.44.159] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:12:29 hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:01 tiglog [~topeak@117.79.232.135] has joined #lisp 16:13:58 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.157.144] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:14:32 -!- tiglog [~topeak@117.79.232.135] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:15:07 tiglog [~topeak@114.112.44.159] has joined #lisp 16:15:25 hugod [~hugod@207.164.135.98] has joined #lisp 16:15:50 -!- hugod [~hugod@207.164.135.98] has quit [Client Quit] 16:16:34 -!- tiglog [~topeak@114.112.44.159] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:17:26 tiglog [~topeak@114.112.44.159] has joined #lisp 16:17:50 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-50-254.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has left #lisp 16:18:54 -!- tiglog [~topeak@114.112.44.159] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:19:24 tiglog [~topeak@117.79.233.185] has joined #lisp 16:21:00 -!- aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 16:21:58 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:22:08 -!- agumonkey [~agu@34.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:23:42 -!- jamesstanley [~james@cpc4-bath5-2-0-cust35.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:25:49 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:26:25 -!- McRibbit [~user@zaza4.ida.liu.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:28:34 -!- rwiker_ [~rwiker@209.80-202-32.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:30:40 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-25.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 16:31:47 tmh [4b1be7fa@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 16:34:40 Phooodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 16:35:35 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:40:13 -!- rstandy`` [~rastandy@93-63-185-248.ip29.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:46:06 -!- tarmil [~user@business-178-48-18-229.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:47:07 pavelpenev [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has joined #lisp 16:48:21 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:50:43 -!- tiglog [~topeak@117.79.233.185] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:58:21 -!- WordWow [WordWow@adsl-76-233-38-184.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:02:32 -!- am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:03:05 WordWow [WordWow@adsl-76-233-38-184.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:37 TDT [~user@bouncer.eng.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 17:03:48 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.117] has quit [Quit: Offline] 17:04:42 -!- bsod1 [~sinan@88.243.249.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:05:25 Is there any way to output the command that slime/swank is using to connect to SBCL? For some reason I'm getting an error "--dynamic-space-size argument is out of range". Trying to debug what it's actually trying to execute. 17:06:28 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@99.120.69.226] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn you have to set yourself on fire.] 17:07:22 -!- Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: gogogo] 17:08:15 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:08:48 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.224] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7-dev] 17:10:22 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.224] has joined #lisp 17:11:10 M-x trace-function comint-exec 17:11:15 TDT it is in a special emacs buffer 17:12:00 Try -x list-buffers 17:12:06 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-154.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:13:54 -!- alvis [~alvis@tx-71-2-120-116.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:15:08 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 17:16:00 Thanks I'll give that a try, thanks 17:17:27 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 17:19:35 -!- gensym [~user@dslc-082-082-099-088.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:19:55 tritchey [~tritchey@108.60.121.114] has joined #lisp 17:20:10 gensym [~user@dslc-082-082-099-088.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:02 rwiker [~rwiker@209.80-202-32.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:25:04 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:26:11 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:30:27 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 17:31:29 benkard_ [~benkard@141.84.69.67] has joined #lisp 17:32:20 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 17:33:14 -!- WordWow [WordWow@adsl-76-233-38-184.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:35:01 -!- benkard [~benkard@141.84.69.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:35:01 -!- benkard_ is now known as benkard 17:36:22 WordWow [WordWow@adsl-76-233-38-184.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:52 -!- WordWow [WordWow@adsl-76-233-38-184.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:38:54 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:39:21 oconnore [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:18 pavelludiq [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has joined #lisp 17:42:07 -!- pavelpenev [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:45:35 WordWow [WordWow@76.233.38.184] has joined #lisp 17:46:57 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:49:22 drwho [~drwho@208.7.157.62] has joined #lisp 17:49:43 dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 17:51:21 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.33] has joined #lisp 17:51:44 -!- pavelludiq is now known as pavelpenev 17:54:14 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.232.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:54:59 cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.232.190] has joined #lisp 17:59:12 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:00:52 akovalen` [~anton@95.73.107.146] has joined #lisp 18:02:00 -!- iwillig [~ivan@ool-ad03c1a0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:02:30 -!- akovalenko [~anton@77.51.3.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:03:28 -!- akovalen` is now known as akovalenko 18:03:59 -!- TDT [~user@bouncer.eng.uiowa.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:04:24 -!- loz [~user@87.226.216.218] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:04:45 loz [~user@87.226.216.218] has joined #lisp 18:05:20 marsell [~marsell@120.18.165.88] has joined #lisp 18:05:54 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.54.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:12:13 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 18:12:41 bubu111 [mena.carus@adsl-ull-93-52.51-151.net24.it] has joined #lisp 18:12:50 ciao 18:13:09 !list 18:13:18 -!- bubu111 [mena.carus@adsl-ull-93-52.51-151.net24.it] has left #lisp 18:13:20 bubu111: What's up? 18:14:03 dru1d [~lukasz@82.177.172.217] has joined #lisp 18:14:07 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:15:32 he quit Xach 18:16:29 Xach: does your lisptips contain stuff about vectors and arrays etc ?.... 18:16:33 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@122.169.86.170] has joined #lisp 18:16:33 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@122.169.86.170] has quit [Changing host] 18:16:33 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 18:17:33 homie: Yes. 18:17:45 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.224] has joined #lisp 18:18:42 k9quaint-wk [~k9quaint-@64.197.122.130] has joined #lisp 18:20:04 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 18:20:10 -!- anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:20:34 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@209.80-202-32.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:20:37 coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:41 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.111.128] has quit [Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)] 18:20:54 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.111.128] has joined #lisp 18:22:14 alvis [~alvis@tx-71-2-120-116.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:45 Xach: do you have a means of imposing user-intefaces vai oop lisp ? 18:23:01 Xach: err i mean tutorials or tips or methods etc.... 18:23:21 I don't know what "imposing user-intefaces vai oop lisp" means. 18:23:46 Xach: exposing i meant sorry 18:24:18 Xach: and by the user interface i mean the interface which remains constant and consists of things the user is supposed to freely customize or so..... 18:24:31 I don't know anything about that, sorry. 18:24:37 *madnificent* has no idea what homie is talking about 18:24:40 Xach: oh ok, sorry then 18:25:36 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 18:25:41 i thought of things like c++ class intefaces maybe...... 18:26:35 the word is spelled "interface" 18:26:44 ok i think that happens all thru export in lisp packages.... 18:26:56 or intern, the other way..... 18:27:18 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:20 and that seems hairier, saw one example from nikodemus ..... 18:28:11 So... you're looking for various styles of expressing the public interface (API) to a piece of code, rather than anything truly user-facing? 18:28:42 oh, we're not talking about graphics things? 18:29:20 -!- gensym [~user@dslc-082-082-099-088.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:29:35 not necessarily...but i had that in mind..... 18:29:37 Well, the entire conversation is fairly incoherent before the mention of "c++ class intefaces" (sic). 18:30:34 i think i have to reread clos/mop stuff....... 18:31:36 homie: by default CLOS doesn't shield functionality from the user. you decide what the user is allowed to access by exporting symbols (well, you give a hint about it that way) 18:32:18 madnificient: i just asked myself, why various things in mcclim are not exported then...... 18:32:30 homie: It is not possible to "impose" the API on the user in lisp. The basic agreement between the library maintainer and the user is that if the user agrees to stick to the exported interface, the maintainer agrees not to make changes that break code. The user can still get to the internals, but at that point, the user is on her own. 18:32:54 ah ok 18:33:27 i'll check the package stuff of mcclim then again......and look for exported things....and see if i tried to access wrong things...... 18:33:52 tmh: should that basic agreement be reworded as implicit agreement? or common, maybe? 18:33:56 clim is a bit of a special case in that it has a specification that is arbitrarily broken (: 18:34:13 oh 18:34:23 *nyef* shudders in memory of a few of the more egregious brokennesses in CLIM. 18:34:26 not badly, in many places 18:34:32 but enough in some (: 18:34:33 antifuchs: and yet it draws my attention each time it's named, even though i've never used it. 18:34:42 madnificent: it's nice! in a way. 18:34:52 yes it's nice 18:35:05 could have been nicer..... 18:35:07 lol 18:35:10 madnificent: I think common agreement is appropriate. I think the agreement is stronger than implicit. 18:35:25 if you like 90s interfaces, it's really cool. also, if you want a graphical display for your models, without doing too much work. 18:35:26 Understood? 18:35:28 antifuchs: is there a 10 minute thing which you can do so you can get started with it (as in, a few lines of code to get your feet wet). or perhaps a livecoding screencast or what have you. 18:35:38 doritos [~joshua@c-76-24-98-69.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:54 no screencast that I know of, but gilbert's demo/presentation at LSM2003 was very good (helped me get into clim) 18:35:56 tmh: i'll agree on that :) 18:36:00 let me dig it up 18:36:15 oh, cool :) 18:38:38 bzzbzz [~franco@70.83.34.240] has joined #lisp 18:38:50 ah, there: http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/lsm-2003-slides.ps.gz 18:39:34 decent upload speed for a user's machine 18:40:11 bsod1 [~sinan@88.240.130.228] has joined #lisp 18:40:13 thank you, i'm downloading it :) 18:40:36 ... what upload speed? 18:44:24 -!- rgrinberg [~rudi@24.52.246.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 259 seconds] 18:44:49 Amadiro_ [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 18:45:02 sellout- [~Adium@161.98.9.17] has joined #lisp 18:45:19 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:45:19 -!- dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:45:19 -!- el-maxo [~max@p5DE8FD96.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:45:19 -!- aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:45:20 -!- Dodek [dodek@nolajf.pl] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:45:20 -!- wormwood [~wormwood@99-39-241-71.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:45:20 -!- cods [~cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:45:20 -!- troydm [~troydm@unaffiliated/troydm] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:45:20 -!- Axioplase_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:45:26 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:45:30 el-maxo [~max@p5DE8FD96.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:41 aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has joined #lisp 18:46:18 dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 18:46:18 Dodek [dodek@nolajf.pl] has joined #lisp 18:46:18 wormwood [~wormwood@99-39-241-71.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:18 troydm [~troydm@unaffiliated/troydm] has joined #lisp 18:46:18 cods [~cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has joined #lisp 18:46:18 Axioplase_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 18:46:23 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:46:24 antifuchs: that was interesting 18:46:57 antifuchs: does mcclim run on windows (and does it run on older/modern windows systems as well)? 18:47:08 not sure if it does 18:47:18 but with an X server, it just might! 18:47:27 it does run with an X server 18:47:29 but not out of the box 18:47:34 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-25.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 18:47:46 well, there's allegro clim (-; 18:47:46 it also kinda sorta runs with gtk 18:48:28 ah well, no biggy. i don't use windows myself anyways, would've been cool if it did though. 18:48:43 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 18:50:29 pavelludiq [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has joined #lisp 18:50:48 -!- derekv [~derekv@c-68-62-78-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has left #lisp 18:51:13 -!- pavelpenev [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:51:39 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 18:53:43 ravster [~user@184.175.28.107] has joined #lisp 18:53:47 Hello all 18:54:06 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-153-252.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:54:08 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-153-252.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:55:37 I'm having a problem with learning hunchentoot. define-easy-handler doesn't seem to work for me, and my *dispatch-table* has only #'dispatch-easy-handlers in it, and I'm not able to add #default-dispatcher at all (Says the function doesn't exist) (I think its related, but am not sure). Any tips on how to solve this? Thanks. 18:56:20 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-177-149.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:56:34 ravster: hunchentoot 1.2.0 was released just a few days ago. could be that your tutorial is referring to an outdated version of the API 18:56:38 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-177-149.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:56:58 which version of hunchentoot and which tutorial are you using? 18:59:17 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-154.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:59:24 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-qaqjzsyuegesjkmo] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:59:33 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 19:00:06 is there a way to get slime to show me all methods that dispatch on a specific type? 19:00:33 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:01:01 antifuchs: The faq on the main website says that *dispatch-table* should have 2 symbols in it. I'm using http://langnostic.blogspot.com/2011/08/cl-chan-clsql-and-hunchentoot-crash.html as the tutorial, and hunchentoot version 1.2.1 (According to quicklisp (The hunchentoot website says that the current version is 1.1.1)). 19:01:19 bobbysmith007: i guess you mean on a specific type? 19:01:34 s/type/object/ that was 19:02:00 madnificent: Try again. How about a specific class? 19:02:34 -!- akovalenko [~anton@95.73.107.146] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:02:42 coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:47 nyef: if you have the object, you have the corresponding class, no? 19:04:18 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:04:19 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@222.126.197.129] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:04:27 duomo [~duomo@d90h51.public.simons-rock.edu] has joined #lisp 19:04:27 yes, on a specific class 19:04:39 ravster: weird - can you paste the code you're using into paste.lisp.org? 19:04:52 Yes, but unless you're using EQL specializers, you specialize by class. 19:04:52 antifuchs: I know that hunchentoot is working since I'm able to see the default page, and I'm also able to click through the 1 link for documentation. 19:05:05 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:05:16 oudeis [~oudeis@222.126.197.129] has joined #lisp 19:05:24 antifuchs: sure, but its just a clean copy of the stuff on the blog. 19:05:31 antifuchs: do you still want it? 19:05:45 in that case, that's not necessary I guess (: 19:05:46 nm, I derped its slime-who-specializes which I guess I had hit an extra key after so that my class name was wrong 19:06:05 ravster: Have you looked at the example code that comes with Hunchentoot? You might find a better example there. 19:06:06 <_schulte_> is there any way to access the return value of a defmethod from an :after defmethod? 19:06:41 ravster: it's weird - I get (HUNCHENTOOT:DISPATCH-EASY-HANDLERS HUNCHENTOOT:DEFAULT-DISPATCHER) on *dispatch-table* by default 19:06:54 _schulte_: use an :around defmethod for that 19:06:57 (when I load hunchentoot from quicklisp oh, that's 1.1.1.) 19:07:00 nyef: i was mainly thinking about it from a user interface point of view. as in: you'd probably type the objects and then ask the method names which are appropriate. similarly to what one does in java, i guess. 19:07:14 mogs [~mogs@125.177.43.132] has joined #lisp 19:07:26 <_schulte_> dlowe: ok, and just capture the return value of `call-next-method'? 19:07:32 _schulte_: yep 19:07:38 <_schulte_> dlowe: thanks 19:07:41 seems I need to upgrade my quicklisp (: 19:07:47 antifuchs: i looked at the easy-teen example (say-yo) on the website. That didn't work for me either. 19:08:11 odd! 19:08:25 ok, now I'm seeing what you're seeing 19:08:42 yeah. I'm not sure about which version of hunchentoot I have now. :) 19:09:07 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@c9518865.virtua.com.br] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:09:23 fmeyer [~fmeyer@c9518865.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 19:09:34 and yeah, I also get "resource /yo not found" 19:09:34 TDT [~user@5317-nat01.eng.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 19:09:57 antifuchs: yup, thats what I'm getting. But you said that it was working for you earlier? 19:10:03 Snaffu [~Snaffu@oh-69-34-16-39.sta.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:14 ravster: that was with ht 1.1.1 19:10:28 on an old quicklisp, which I thought I'd updated 19:10:49 ok - so the next steps would be to either catch H4ns when he drops by here, or to send email to the hunchentoot dev list 19:10:50 antifuchs: oh, okay. So the update has broken it then? 19:11:09 yeah, the update breaks the API in some non-backwards-compatible ways 19:12:12 alright, cool. thanks again for your help. I'm glad that its not just me being silly. i'll send that email. 19:13:02 great, thanks! 19:14:22 <_schulte_> is it possible to unintern an :after method, or do I need to restart my lisp process? 19:14:44 _schulte_: you can remove it quite easily with slime 19:14:51 _schulte_: just inspect the generic function object 19:15:01 _schulte_: you can do it "by hand" with a combination of find-method and remove-method 19:15:07 <_schulte_> Xach: I'm using slime, but don't know how to inspect 19:15:15 _schulte_: C-c I 19:15:20 then #'my-generic-function RET 19:15:29 <_schulte_> Xach: great, will try that, thanks 19:16:05 <_schulte_> Xach: wow, that is really handy 19:16:11 akovalenko [~anton@95.73.107.146] has joined #lisp 19:16:22 Ain't it? 19:17:06 -!- akovalenko [~anton@95.73.107.146] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 19:19:54 akovalenko [~anton@95.73.107.146] has joined #lisp 19:23:43 antifuchs: so I looked at the archive of the hunchentoot dev-list. They've changed it from 'acceptor to 'easy-acceptor if you are using "define-easy-handler" or the *dispatch-table* from now on. And its working now (Even the "say-yo" example. Thanks again for guiding me to it. 19:24:23 -!- waltwhite [~waltwhite@113-9-190-109.dsl.ovh.fr] has quit [Quit: waltwhite] 19:24:39 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [] 19:24:43 excellent! I didn't know that - will have to update a few of my own code examples too, I guess ((: 19:28:54 -!- benny [~benny@i577A27B0.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:30:17 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-236-147.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:31:19 Xach: you have mentioned in the past you use Lisp for writing little utilities, or something to that effect, correct? 19:31:52 felideon: yes 19:32:12 has anyone but me used rucksack in a project? 19:32:48 Xach: each of these utilities, do you create a binary (i.e. s-l-a-d), or how do you usually use them once they're coded? 19:34:02 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:34:06 felideon: sometimes i use buildapp to create binaries, e.g. for my X utility to toggle the on-every-workspace attribute of a window 19:34:32 felideon: most of the time i just keep them in my asdf source registry, quickload them when needed, and call their functions. 19:35:25 ah gotcha. 19:36:02 if I wanted to set up a cron job to run a lisp program, would it be best to create a binary, or just something it can 'sbcl --load ...' ? 19:36:02 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 19:36:09 I'd use buildapp in that case. 19:36:48 I see. Thanks! 19:39:04 -!- Untrustworthy [~foo@c-75-70-167-114.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:39:44 Something I've done is to have a lot of utilites loaded in one image listening on a unix socket and used socat to issue commands to it from shell scripts. 19:39:59 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has joined #lisp 19:40:09 jasom: I was just going to suggest that, a lisp daemon waiting for commands. 19:40:21 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 19:40:42 Well, buildapp also supports lumping a bunch of utilities into one binary and dispatching based on argv[0], a bit like busybox. 19:40:54 Untrustworthy [~foo@c-75-70-167-114.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:58 Xach: oh, that's kind of cool 19:40:58 Dunno how the startup time compares to socket connection time, though. 19:41:18 lbc [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 19:41:40 Xach: probably close enough for interactive commands, may be noticable for large batch jobs though. 19:42:05 dlowe: I use rucksack as the backing store for my cliki spam reverter bot. 19:42:11 -!- pinterface1 is now known as pinterface 19:42:43 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:42:48 pinterface: have you had problems with corruption when you use a new class schema? 19:43:30 Xach: I have stumpwm and a bunch of utilities in a big image (using buildapp). Startup times are not noticeable 19:43:33 lisp --eval '(quit)' 19:43:33 real 0m0.033s 19:43:36 christian@quirlies:~$ time lisp --eval '(quit)' 19:43:43 that's not bad 19:44:39 xcv [~xcv@hermes.logmenn.com] has joined #lisp 19:44:47 -!- xcv [~xcv@hermes.logmenn.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:45:06 probably only works because the image is constantly in memory, but so what? Most of it will be shared anyway 19:45:18 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-206-3.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:45:19 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.232.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:45:19 dlowe: Don't use the class schema stuff, just a bunch of hashtables and lists in a btree. Sorry. 19:45:46 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:48:46 coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:34 pinterface: Welcome, friend, to Planet Lisp! 19:50:03 anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has joined #lisp 19:50:42 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:51:00 benny [~benny@i577A2528.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:51:15 Xach: Thanks! I'm remarkably stoked to be awesome enough to be on it. :) 19:52:16 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-154.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:52:33 Is it possible to pass references to lists to functions that alter them so that the original list gets altered? 19:52:58 -!- dru1d [~lukasz@82.177.172.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:53:25 Iceland_jack: Yes, although there can be some significant gotchas. 19:53:46 (let ((list '(1 2 3))) (setfs-as-5 (car list)) (print list)) that prints something like "(5 2 3)" 19:53:47 Iceland_jack: In general, it tends to be a bad idea. 19:53:54 Hm, ok 19:54:01 Iceland_jack: it helps to distinguish altering the cons structure and altering the binding. 19:54:22 Iceland_jack: that is a bad example, because it modifies a quoted list. 19:54:23 Xach: What does the binding refer to in this context? 19:54:33 Iceland_jack: the association between a name and a value 19:54:53 I thought '(1 2 3) was the same as say (list 1 2 3) 19:54:58 Think again, jack 19:55:01 or equivalent in any case 19:55:30 A function receives the value, and if that value has some kind of alterable internal structure (like a cons does, or a vector does), changes to that structure are reflected in whatever has a reference to that value. 19:55:33 It's equivalent in SOME cases. Most notably, those cases where the structure isn't going to be altered. 19:56:01 I had no idea 19:56:04 thank you. 19:56:24 vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-xuzjwyidgaehanhw] has joined #lisp 19:57:17 Iceland_jack: one good way to get tripped up is to think "Oh, I'll write a function that changes the list by changing CARs and CDRs with setf" 19:57:18 Could you provide any terse examples that showcase how this difference might affect code? 19:57:22 And then passing that function NIL. 19:58:24 npoektop [~npoektop@213.141.130.13] has joined #lisp 19:58:37 hm 19:58:54 Iceland_jack: The usual symptom is changes persisting that you naively wouldn't expect to persist. 19:59:12 A question related to the issue is posted to stackoverflow about once per month. "Why is my list remembering old values?" or similar. 19:59:39 Hm 19:59:53 Trying to find it 20:00:05 tagged as Common Lisp? 20:01:11 pavelpenev [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has joined #lisp 20:02:05 -!- pavelludiq [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:02:24 Usually. 20:05:10 Hrm... I wonder if we can make SBCL do something useful with quoted lists, like stuff them into a heap page with a flag that says to bitch heavily if someone tries to mutate them...? 20:05:32 nyef: it already does 20:05:42 ... it does? 20:05:52 Under some circumstances. 20:05:55 there's a clean-up issue in the hyperspec that stats that compilers at least at the time were allowed to "collapse" #'equal constants into the same structure, and that you could be causing yourself great pain if you then tried to change one constant now sharing the structure of another constant -- '(1 2 3) would be constant and (list 1 2 3) wouldn't be, right? 20:06:03 Which circumstances? 20:06:05 Vivitron: right. 20:06:20 Vivitron: the exact word is literal, though. 20:06:34 nyef: ; Destructive function SB-KERNEL:%RPLACA called on constant data. 20:06:42 err missed a word "at the time compilers were allowed to ..." 20:06:56 nyef: e.g. for (compile nil '(lambda () (let ((list '(a b c))) (setf (car list) 42)))) 20:06:57 I'd more easily believe that the compiler bitches if you mutate something that it knows to be a literal than the host MMU being used to trap such access at runtime. 20:07:38 Yeah, that's a compile-time static analysis, not the runtime trap I'm thinking of. 20:07:40 I hope Mr literal is enjoying this discussion 20:07:41 literal, thanks pkhuong 20:08:16 Not nearly as much as markskilbeck does, I'm sure! 20:09:42 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:11:24 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-236-147.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:00 -!- ve [~a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:12:37 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:12:38 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:12:47 I swear to cow. 20:14:23 jtza8 [~jtza8@41.213.79.59] has joined #lisp 20:14:27 -!- bsod1 [~sinan@88.240.130.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:14:39 anvandare [~anvandare@78-22-156-19.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 20:15:21 bsod1 [~sinan@88.244.170.175] has joined #lisp 20:15:22 -!- anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 20:15:24 -!- bsod1 [~sinan@88.244.170.175] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:15:37 anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has joined #lisp 20:17:13 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@108.60.121.114] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:17:30 tritchey [~tritchey@108.60.121.114] has joined #lisp 20:21:13 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:21:13 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 20:21:29 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:23:08 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 20:24:10 -!- WordWow [WordWow@76.233.38.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:25:00 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c2c71.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:00 *Kryztof* is sad that he don't have the context to understand why markskilbeck's tail is so easy to tweak 20:26:34 hi 20:26:48 *prxq* runs for the backlogs 20:27:02 also, bah, you wait for two weeks to blog and then three people bury your wall of ECLM text with irrelevant stuff about Lisp implementation releases and stuff 20:27:58 Kryztof: I enjoyed your writeup :P 20:28:47 bsod1 [~sinan@88.244.170.175] has joined #lisp 20:28:48 temp_usr [~user@d83-183-51-82.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 20:29:07 Mmm. The package-hacking stuff seemed kindof meh, but the ECLM writeup was good to read. 20:29:54 New lisp implementation releases, nice to know, but doesn't require much reading. The thing about McCarthy was good, though. 20:30:06 Is there any way to get to know which packages are defined by a library downloaded by Quicklisp? A simple way that is 20:31:08 temp_usr: (set-difference (prog1 (list-all-packages) (ql:quickload "foo")) (list-all-packages)) perhaps 20:31:14 or maybe the other way around 20:31:24 temp_usr: there isn't an actual simple way. 20:31:40 I dunno, that's a pretty simple approach, and is what came to mind for me as well. 20:31:51 I would like to gather that information statically and share it. 20:31:52 temp_usr: what's the use case? 20:32:02 set-difference arguments are the other way around, indeed. 20:32:48 Xach: Eh, that's simple enough, definitely 20:33:38 Wasn't there talk about the ECLM talks being recorded and published? 20:34:04 Neronus: there was talk and they were recorded. i have not heard anything regarding publishing, either positive or negative. i assume they are on track to be published. 20:34:05 of course here I am able to not mince my words 20:34:12 Neronus: they were recorded 20:34:40 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-218-248.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:57 the ALU as an institution seems to make all of its officers incompetent and rudderless 20:35:24 Ernst van Waning and David Cooper have been involved in the ALU for approximately ever 20:35:43 *Xach* wonders about correlation, causation 20:36:02 it's an interesting one 20:36:13 It takes constant effort to make an organisation do things. 20:36:13 I think it's possibly because no-one remembers what the ALU is for 20:36:31 I spent some of my yearly "read ALU minutes" budget today 20:36:34 there was an excellent quote 20:37:06 antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1177889969.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 20:37:11 hagish [~hagish@pD9FBE0C0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:24 "There was lengthy off-topic discussion due to misunderstandings of the 20:37:24 intent." -- that wasn't it, but it's funny 20:38:00 oh, that was it: 20:38:14 = Membership Definition 20:38:15 We have been chewing on this since ILC09. AFAIK, Jeremy was the last one to shine his light on defining what a member is (looking at the by-laws) and what a member may expect of ALU and what ALU may expect from its membership. 20:38:48 Not as funny. 20:38:58 no 20:39:06 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.224] has joined #lisp 20:39:18 io-k [~user@h-176-10-226-22.na.cust.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 20:39:28 But basically highlights that everyone seems to have forgotten what the point of the ALU is? 20:40:03 "since ILC09" == "for nine months and over eight board meetings" 20:40:21 The ALU charter was offered as a reason for some of the shortcomings of ILC 2010, but after reading the charter, I couldn't figure out the relationship. 20:43:58 coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:17 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:44:39 the example that springs to mind is that they mandated a pan-lisp approach 20:44:54 how does ALU keep running? does it get funding from somewhere? why do/should we care? 20:45:03 Xach: I think that's kind of crap though. 20:45:17 There's probably plenty of wiggle room for either pan-lisp or all-CL-all-the-time. 20:45:30 I personally think the ALU should be pan-Lisp but just not suck at it so badly. 20:45:32 gigamonkey: the word "lisp" is mentioned only in describing the name of the organization. 20:45:39 -!- temp_usr [~user@d83-183-51-82.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:45:45 gigamonkey: the articles of incorporation and bylaws say nothing else about the topic. 20:45:45 madnificent: the main reason to care is the unfortunate control of lisp.org 20:46:17 gigamonkey: yes, i dislike that as well. is there any other reason why we should care? 20:46:33 Just that they're annoying. 20:46:48 They have financial resources, but I don't know how they might be usefully applied in any particular direction. 20:46:58 if you have a bunch of loonies running something that is purportedly for the benefit of the Lisp community, it demotivates people who might actually run something ostensibly similar for the benefit of the Lisp community 20:47:09 *gigamonkey* was about to say what Kryztof just said, more or less. 20:47:15 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 20:47:28 I'm not sure I buy that. 20:47:38 "The ALU's mission is to provide high-quality information about Lisp" 20:47:39 wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:47:42 I buy more that it just looks bad. 20:47:46 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 20:47:49 -!- io-k [~user@h-176-10-226-22.na.cust.bahnhof.se] has left #lisp 20:47:50 Kryztof: but if we ignore them completely, then there'll be little fuss about them 20:47:57 there is common-lisp.net, and it sucks. any takers? 20:48:43 Seems like the ALU has dropped in Google results. 20:48:59 i think while the alu basically sucks, it seems to be easier to complain than to do something better. sure, lisp.org is a neat domain name, but who _really_ cares about domain names? 20:49:02 I am more discouraged by my lack of time and energy to act for the benefit of the CL community. The perceived irrelevance of the ALU doesn't bother me too much, except once a year when I attend a meeting. 20:49:27 when i firste encountered the ALU, i thought it was something dead that was almost accidentally being kept available online 20:49:55 Xach: if you claim that you have "lack of time and energy to act for the benefit of the CL community", then what should everyone else say? 20:49:57 madnificent: that, at various recent times, has been about right. 20:50:15 gigamonkey: ironic 20:50:37 coyo [kvirc@pool-71-164-173-28.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:37 -!- coyo [kvirc@pool-71-164-173-28.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:50:37 coyo [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 20:50:40 Xach: well, there are examples of competent and motivated people volunteering to serve the ALU, and then finding that their efforts were belittled, undermined or frustrated by other bits of the ALU, including the officers 20:50:56 madnificent: kind of zombie rather than actually dead. 20:51:34 H4ns: I don't know. "That'll show you for having kids!" maybe. 20:51:45 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.33] has quit [Quit: Offline] 20:51:54 gigamonkey: are you following up on the posts about switching to hunchentoot 1.2 It may be interesting information for toot 20:51:56 *Xach* thinks back to all those childless weekends playing freeciv and watching movies 20:52:02 good times 20:52:10 *Kryztof* mostly remembers being able to lie in bed and not get up 20:52:15 Wasted! I should have written Quicklisp *then*! 20:52:21 haha 20:52:29 madnificent: what posts? 20:52:41 madnificent: I'm on the mailing list. But I'm breaking compatibility with vicious abandon so Toot is far worse in that respect. 20:52:49 Or are you thinking of something else? 20:52:57 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:53:26 bah, savages 20:53:29 gigamonkey: no, the same thing. just wanted to make sure you knew some buzz existed 20:53:34 *anvandare* isn't allowed to do his final project in lisp :( 20:53:44 H4ns: this was on the quicklisp mailing list, and it was nothing big. 20:53:58 anvandare: the usual approach is to write a solution in CL that emits another language 20:54:15 *H4ns* searches for the ql ml archives 20:54:16 H4ns: is there a list of commonly needed changes available, perhaps? 20:54:21 myeesss... but I don't think I'm up for that >.>; 20:54:29 nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p4FE3399B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:35 H4ns: what sucks most at cl.net? 20:54:38 unless there's an available lisp-to-c# 20:54:54 Kryztof: Maybe the important thing is to help energetic, idea-laden people understand that contributing to the ALU is not going to be a good use of their talents. 20:55:08 madnificent: yes, although it is not complete. i posted to the hunchentoot list in response to xach's post. 20:55:16 Kryztof: At present, I'm not sure an energetic, idea-laden person would get that idea in the first place. 20:55:30 H4ns: ah, i should search for that then :) 20:55:42 madnificent: if you find the link... 20:55:48 H4ns: I haven't heard any screams of real pain in response to the quicklisp update. 20:55:52 What is this A-L-U of which you speak? I kid... 20:55:58 -!- nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p4FE3399B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:56:03 prxq: the rss feed is useless, there are many dead projects, we still have cvs as default vc system 20:56:07 H4ns: i hope that means that the impact has not been very negative. 20:56:17 Xach: so do i :) 20:56:22 nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p4FE3399B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:40 So it's cool and all that lisp.org put up a tribute to McCarthy but could they maybe have left a link to the rest of the site? 20:56:48 H4ns: Forgive me if you've said already, but do you intend to update weitz.de's docs? 20:56:49 i think we are all too busy getting stuff done. 20:56:55 Though really, maybe we're better off without it. 20:57:03 Xach: edi does. i'll nag him tomorrow. 20:57:04 haha 20:57:13 H4ns: someone did tweet me about that 20:57:18 gigamonkey: Maybe they're trying to imply something. 20:57:34 tmh: deep. 20:57:49 gigamonkey: i'm following toot loosely, great work! i love the renames! :) 20:57:54 H4ns: why is that so? 20:57:59 H4ns: thanks! I love renaming. 20:58:10 H4ns: the "default vc" should not really be a problem. 20:58:12 prxq: what do you mean? 20:58:30 dead projects are a fact of life (cf sourceforge) 20:58:33 prxq: it is not a problem, it is just something that makes the whole thing to appear unmaintained. 20:58:39 prxq: i failed to find it 20:58:40 H4ns: did you see the change where I untangled start-output, etc. 20:59:35 gigamonkey: just superficially, but that looked so proper to me. it was about time to really clean up the thing, it is a hairball. 20:59:37 H4ns: it probably reflects the truth, no? 20:59:49 rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:00:00 prxq: right. that was my point. 21:00:38 You know what annoys me about slime symbol completion? If I enter "package::", I would want to see symbols local to the package before symbols inherited from other packages, and instead I get overwhelmed by symbols from CL and wherever else. 21:00:38 prxq: the rss feed is what i mentioned first, and that'd be something really nice to see fixed. 21:00:44 *prxq* remembers putting the front page of cl.net together 21:00:58 prxq: like, say, 6 years ago? :) 21:01:06 right :-) 21:01:16 H4ns: so my plan now is to build a "server" on top of Toot that lets you specify via config files things like the mapping between requested URIs and handlers, authorization, and redirects. 21:01:19 H4ns: did you see ravster had a problem with the hunchentoot examples & docs (: 21:01:25 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:35 I'm thinking of calling that Garçon. 21:01:41 gigamonkey: woo-hoo! 21:01:50 nyef: me too 21:01:55 gigamonkey: this is good, because i can give up that plan. 21:01:59 antifuchs: no? 21:02:01 H4ns: what's the problem with rss? 21:02:07 The idea being that different servers could be built on top of Toot--e.g. if folks really like easy-handlers or whatever, they can build support for them. 21:02:33 H4ns: I have most of it already done on top of Hunchentoot, built for the Code Quarterly web site. 21:02:36 i do not like symbols or dusty letters in project names :( 21:02:38 prxq: it lists projects when they are created, and when you click on the link published, you see the unchanged template page. 21:02:41 So at least that project wasn't a total loss. 21:03:03 Xach: heh. It's a unicode world man! Though I could probably use a regular "c". 21:03:06 bsod1_ [~sinan@88.243.248.59] has joined #lisp 21:03:07 H4ns: looks easy to fix, no? 21:03:21 H4ns: the "new york" demo on the hunchentoot intro page needs to use the easy-acceptor, apparently 21:03:24 prxq: not quite. 21:03:36 -!- spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Quit: spacefrogg] 21:03:39 Xach: do non-ascii characters actually cause problems for Quicklisp in any way? 21:03:40 -!- bsod1 [~sinan@88.244.170.175] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:03:43 Xach: the-webserver-formerly-known-as-hunchentoot? 21:03:43 antifuchs: erm, that is in the new docs, but probably not on edi's site. let me double check. 21:03:51 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:04:14 gigamonkey: they migh cause weird sorting, though 21:04:23 gigamonkey: I think they might, if they are used to name files or directories. I don't really want to find out, to be honest. 21:04:32 H4ns: maybe Edi needs to redirect somewhere now 21:04:34 cl+ssl caused some trouble for me initially 21:04:40 (I'm still using weitz.de/hunchentoot/ for reference) 21:05:05 and yes, filenames. Also... aren't there still implementations that can occasionally run without native unicode? 21:05:34 one of the things I don't understand is why all those people with web stuff knowledge up and down somehow can't be arsed to fix rss at cl.net. Or to create a simple templating system that does the job 21:06:20 fixing things is boring, making things is fun 21:06:27 same thing with documentation, really 21:06:56 *pinterface* has felt pain at the hands of unicode in filenames, but more often runs into issues with spaces. 21:07:25 prxq: that's the spirit - and c-l.net is something that can actually be fixed, while the alu seems to be unfixable. 21:07:58 prxq: which "all these people" ? 21:08:19 fe[nl]ix: it's not hard to come up with hypotheses. 21:09:13 This totally sounds like a job for Xach. 21:09:18 prxq: I've given up on blogging using lispy software because I just don't find it very interesting (: 21:09:19 we got people writing web frameworks for big companies, but the web design at cl.net was made by a number cruncher 21:09:42 tmh: I'll add it to the top of my list 21:09:44 antifuchs: it'd be totally ok to use something ruby based 21:09:45 prxq: btw, jekyll (and by extension, octopress) is a very nice script-as-a-cms (: 21:09:48 I'd pay a pro to do it. It'd be in php, but it'd work. 21:09:48 *Xach* cackles, since he pops from the bottom 21:10:08 What needs to be fixed, prxq? 21:10:11 then I'd say octopress if you want a blog-like thing that can have pages, and comes with sensible defaults. 21:10:16 I really like it (: 21:10:21 felideon: for example, rss at common-lisp.net 21:10:36 felideon: i think prxq does not have complaints, but i think that the rss feed of common-lisp.net is useless. 21:10:41 antifuchs: how does it relate/compare with pyblosxom? 21:11:07 pkhuong: it's newer, does markdown formatting and comes with very nice pre-made modern html and css 21:11:07 It is not nearly as ugly. 21:11:11 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-25.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 21:11:21 pavelludiq [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has joined #lisp 21:11:21 xach says it (: 21:11:44 hmm 21:12:16 anvandare: from time to time i use Lisp to generate Perl modules. Hooray for the pretty printer, too! 21:12:20 -!- pavelpenev [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:12:38 antifuchs: mm... I'm currently using a me-optimised setup. I already have to deal with latex all day, so I figured I'd blog in latex instead of learning another markup language (: 21:12:53 http://lispniks.com/cl-gardeners/ <=== muahaha 21:12:56 pkhuong: whatever works for you! 21:13:02 H4ns: you mean http://common-lisp.net/rss.xml ? 21:13:09 The requested URL /cl-gardeners/ was not found on this server. 21:13:29 pkhuong: I rather like the workflow (and I'm already pretty comfortable using markdown), and it does code highlighting very nicely, so I use that (: 21:13:31 anvandare: that's the point :P 21:13:40 oooohhh 21:13:54 *anvandare* is not a clever man 21:14:11 anvandare: well I just happened to notice that from c-l.net as well 21:14:40 i just click stuff 21:14:55 thankfully my browser is heavily warded or i'd've been phished a long time ago 21:15:04 -!- H4ns [57bd7028@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.189.112.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:16:32 frankly, i didn't like jekyll. And the pages I see made with jekyll suck once you look past the finery 21:16:33 prxq: yeah, that thing died long ago. 21:16:40 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-18-72-100.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:18 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-236-147.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:17:37 Couldn't even get the gardeners mobilized for quicklisp minionery :( 21:17:52 who are the gardeners? :< 21:17:57 pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has joined #lisp 21:18:26 anvandare: gigamonkey started a project called cl-gardeners that attracted several hundred participants but did not end up channelling enthusiasm into results 21:18:27 Xach: I may be misremembering but I don't recall that you tried particularly hard. 21:18:28 who gardens the gardeners? 21:18:34 antifuchs: exactly. 21:18:53 It takes work to get work out of other people. 21:18:54 hey, i was going to make that pun! 21:18:55 if only I knew latin! 21:19:00 so, what was the project going to be? 21:19:36 quis hortos hortodies? 21:19:52 sounds good! 21:19:55 anvandare: it was supposed to be a meta-project. The idea was to channel enthusiastic newbies into useful directions. 21:20:04 (hodoriffic) 21:20:10 -!- pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:20:24 pferor [~user@119.Red-2-137-149.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:27 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@108.60.121.114] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 21:20:28 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 21:20:29 gigamonkey, anvandare: a community of low-hanging-fruit pickers? (: 21:20:30 that was later joined with another channel, right? 21:20:31 -!- pferor [~user@119.Red-2-137-149.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:20:31 pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has joined #lisp 21:20:46 tritchey [~tritchey@108.60.121.114] has joined #lisp 21:21:08 "Quis hortiet ipsos hortarios?" methinks 21:21:41 "ludicrus latinus stupidus" 21:21:55 antifuchs: Exactly. 21:22:09 Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur (: 21:22:12 Quidquid latine dictum, altum videtur, quis pro quo, rosam rosae rosad 21:22:23 anvandare: -.- 21:22:32 :p stop stealing my lines! 21:22:35 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:25:21 -!- nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p4FE3399B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:26:21 has anyone here used radiantcms? 21:26:33 -!- dlowe [dlowe@nat/google/x-ptdpvesupaxtyjfr] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:31:02 After cklicking on some links from the cl.net rss feed I am somewhat puzzled. Everything looks alright 21:31:35 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:31:51 prxq: I think that's what I was confused about. Not sure what you or Hans were talking about. 21:32:11 H4ns said rss was broken and I believed him 21:32:56 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.111.128] has joined #lisp 21:34:33 maybe he meant that the old default template was what most people used? 21:35:02 rotty [rotty@de.xx.vu] has joined #lisp 21:36:22 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.111.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:37:49 i don't suppose anyone's ever made a lisp interpreter in javascript? 21:38:00 anvandare: I'm sure someone has. 21:38:02 anvandare: common lisp, that is? 21:38:06 Not for CL though. 21:38:12 yeah, for CL :< 21:38:57 anvandare: CL is rather big, but I expect there to exist scheme interpreters. 21:38:57 gigamonkey: ericbb/everyman has made various 21:39:25 anvandare: you might, to some extent, be interested in parenscript though 21:39:53 hmm, perhaps 21:40:11 first i have to freshen up on my lisp though, 's been a few months since I wrote anything decent 21:40:22 *madnificent* generally has a hard time with parenscript 21:40:56 parenscript is pretty fun.. but debugging is merh. 21:41:13 it's still javascript. 21:41:57 and firebug won't help you that much 21:42:25 someone tried to do a survey of lispy js a few months ago, not sure of the quality of it http://ceaude.twoticketsplease.de/js-lisps.html 21:42:31 well parenscript does output nice javascript fortunately... but yeah, firebug doesn't know parenscript. 21:42:49 so its pretty useless 21:42:57 for non-trivial things. 21:44:36 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c2c71.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:45:30 -!- pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:45:35 pferor` [~user@119.Red-2-137-149.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:12 Farzad [~root@46.225.122.61] has joined #lisp 21:46:18 -!- pferor` [~user@119.Red-2-137-149.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:46:39 pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has joined #lisp 21:48:12 hi guys, whats the best way to distinguish users in hunchentoot without saving sensitive data in session? 21:48:33 There's no good way. 21:48:59 so how's everyone doing this? 21:49:06 Farzad: badly. 21:50:10 a session id hash with a random salt? 21:50:33 but there should be a way, maybe like storing a guid in the session and reading an in memory list to get the use.... 21:50:44 you don't want your session IDs to be enumerable 21:51:22 yep thats why i said guid like those in the asp.net 21:51:24 yeah, most people use a unique, non-enumerable session ID slug to associate that with data stored server-side 21:51:46 Farzad: it works the same way it works in most other cases. You have a session id, which should be an unguessable string of reasonable length, usually in a cookie, and you use that to identify users. 21:52:00 -!- benkard [~benkard@141.84.69.67] has quit [Quit: benkard] 21:52:32 -!- hagish [~hagish@pD9FBE0C0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:52:33 That doesn't identify users. The guys in front of the remote computer can change at any time. 21:52:53 depending on the application, you can lock those down further by, for example, using HttpOnly and Secure for the cookies 21:53:01 ok then, i need a way to clear that list from time to time 21:53:06 that is true 21:53:22 any event for that in hunchentoot? 21:53:33 -!- duomo [~duomo@d90h51.public.simons-rock.edu] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 21:53:39 Farzad: read the documentation. It has a session mechanism that does what you need. 21:53:47 including session expiration and gc 21:54:12 but i think it was for some other implementation, i'm using sbcl 21:54:18 You could try something like http://static6.depositphotos.com/1008303/545/i/450/dep_5453620-Handcuffed-businessman-on-laptop.jpg but this wouldn't even be close to a good solution. 21:54:38 sorabji5252 [~user@ip72-199-176-160.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:44 Farzad: it doesn't have anything in particular to do with your implementation. Just use the documentation for hunchentoot. 21:54:57 ok thanks everyone 21:57:11 -!- sellout- [~Adium@161.98.9.17] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:57:42 hagish [~hagish@pD9FBE0C0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:10 this is the one i was saying: [Special variable] 21:59:11 *cleanup-function* 21:59:11 A designator for a function without arguments which is called on a regular basis if *CLEANUP-INTERVAL* is not NIL. The initial value is the name of a function which invokes a garbage collection on 32-bit versions of LispWorks. 21:59:11 This variable is only available on LispWorks. 21:59:11 22:00:06 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:00:29 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@41.213.79.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:00:48 Farzad: are you trying to clean up the session list? 22:00:55 or some other list? 22:01:37 well dunno just yet but i think it could be useful to have a automatically running function 22:01:42 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-79-59.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 22:02:42 Farzad: HT already takes care of sessions. Also see *session-removal-hook* if you want to add additional behavior when sessions get GCd http://weitz.de/hunchentoot/#sessions 22:03:27 got it thanks 22:03:27 -!- anvandare [~anvandare@78-22-156-19.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:04:01 -!- Snaffu [~Snaffu@oh-69-34-16-39.sta.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:05:49 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:07:28 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:08:50 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 22:09:40 longshot [~longshot@207.204.232.138] has joined #lisp 22:09:48 -!- longshot [~longshot@207.204.232.138] has left #lisp 22:11:02 Hello #lisp 22:11:35 hello. 22:11:58 I'm reading in the SBLC documentation some (rather cryptic) references to something called an "event loop" or "a recursive event loop". What's this? 22:12:12 -!- ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 22:12:41 Often programs are structured with an inner loop, that waits for "events" (whatever that may be) and react on them. 22:13:08 A recursive event loop is when you activate another such loop, while processing a single event. 22:13:34 npat: have a look at select(3) [or poll(3) on linux]. 22:13:37 pjb, and is there any way to gain access to this apparatus? 22:13:42 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.111.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:13:53 Reading the sources? 22:14:14 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@GGZYMKCCCVI.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:14:17 npat: What exactly do you want to do? 22:14:21 -!- Guest81653 is now known as reb 22:14:34 Ideally, async / multiplexed I/O 22:14:47 without resorting to threads 22:14:59 For example, an emacs is basically: (defun emacs () (loop for event = (get-next-key) do (funcall (aref *keymap* event)))) 22:15:41 But when you type M-x the execute-extended-command function will have another event loop to edit the command in the minibuffer. 22:16:01 (or the same if it's factorized out). 22:16:19 -!- sorabji5252 [~user@ip72-199-176-160.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:16:37 npat: have a look at iolib. 22:16:51 npat: Right ... http://common-lisp.net/project/iolib/ 22:17:23 npat: out of interest, why no threads? 22:17:26 pjb, reb, thanks... looking now... 22:17:39 npat: and iolib is what you should be looking at, indeed 22:17:56 It's probably better to use that library instead of leveraging SBCL-specific code. 22:18:55 pferor` [~user@119.Red-2-137-149.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:19:15 madnificent, I'm scared of them... I have never written something with threads that didn't contain subtle corner-case synchronization bugs... 22:19:25 anvandare [~anvandare@78-22-144-151.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 22:20:30 -!- pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:20:38 madnificent, but I'm not ruling them out entirely... I would just prefer a "serialized" event model... 22:21:02 pavelpenev [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has joined #lisp 22:21:09 What happened to minion? 22:21:41 Nobody cares to restart it. 22:21:53 or to write an automatic minion-restarter. 22:22:00 npat : You don't have to use threads in lisp -> http://www.cliki.net/concurrency 22:22:05 -!- pavelludiq [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:22:14 At least not directly 22:22:40 This place is falling apart. 22:22:53 reb: someone has been asking me about binary serialisation in SBCL. If you have use cases, I'd like to read what sort of support you're looking for. 22:22:56 Write a better bot. Minion was rather lame. 22:24:56 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.224] has joined #lisp 22:24:57 *gigamonkey* needs to brush the dead bits off his bot. 22:25:05 longshot__ [~longshot@180.184.35.14] has joined #lisp 22:25:12 *gigamonkey* remembers he's trying to start a career in publishing. 22:25:19 pjb: I would love to do that as an exercise, but I don't see it happening any time soon. 22:25:28 The documentation in the IOLib site is quaint (and probably old)... This, though looks much better: http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~psilord/blog/data/iolib-tutorial/tutorial.html 22:26:07 quaint ??? 22:26:10 npat: that tutorial is included with the iolib distribution, as well. 22:26:20 In SBCL will (format nil ...) get compiled to the same thing as if you created a formatter with FORMATTER and passed it instead of the literal string? 22:27:30 gigamonkey: not exactly the same code, iirc, but constant format strings /are/ precompiled. 22:27:39 fe[nl]ix, maybe not the best choice of wording 22:27:57 tmh: it's only visibly falling apart, in my mind it's still great 22:28:05 gigamonkey: yes. 22:28:05 gigamonkey: (disassemble (compile nil (lambda (x) (format nil "literal ~A string" x)))) seems to say yes. 22:28:20 miniminion! 22:28:27 pjb: didn't sykopomp have something for bots? 22:28:42 ask him 22:28:49 what ever happened to gigabot 22:28:51 *sykopomp* does not. 22:29:01 I worked on an irc bot once, but that's all. 22:29:02 sykopomp: sykobot? 22:29:19 yeah 22:30:19 rme [~rme@50.43.148.59] has joined #lisp 22:30:41 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.154] has joined #lisp 22:32:10 -!- hagish [~hagish@pD9FBE0C0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:35:56 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 22:37:08 felideon: I got distracted. 22:37:19 Someday I'll need to procrastinate and will work on it some more. 22:40:01 What the heck is the use case for hunchentoot's recompute-request-parameters ? 22:41:46 gigamonkey: "This only makes sense if you're switching external formats during the request. " 22:41:48 zmv [~zmv@c95339f3.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 22:41:54 GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-88-247.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:10 Backing up a bit, minion is offline partly because something is actually wrong with it, and I haven't taken the time to try and diagnose the cause more than a couple levels deep, let alone work out a fix. 22:42:21 pkhuong: yeah, but when does that happen? 22:43:14 gigamonkey: bad clients/clients that go in quirks mode because you're serving bad pages. 22:43:25 You get to play guess the encoding. 22:43:50 Hmmm. 22:43:54 Right, I'm gone for the evening. 22:43:57 -!- nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 22:44:39 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:46:06 -!- TDT [~user@5317-nat01.eng.uiowa.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:47:37 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:48:58 IOLib seems nice... 22:49:36 Has anybody used it? 22:50:03 I think fe[nl]ix can tell you a lot about it (-: 22:50:07 I used it a little a few years ago. 22:50:24 i have thought about using it for more than a year :) that doesn't count, i guess 22:50:36 If you use streams, you HAVE to do blocking I/O, correct? 22:50:48 There are more lisp libraries than you can actually use in real projects! 22:51:10 npat: mostly yes. There's LISTEN, but it's not enough. 22:51:27 and READ-CHAR-NO-HANG. 22:51:39 pjb, it's not... Is there a way to have a timeout on blocking reads? 22:51:50 ...and blocking writes 22:52:08 No. You must be preemptive, and use only listen and read-char-no-hang. Notice there's no read-byte-no-hang. 22:52:21 and indeed, nothing to prevent writes to hang. 22:52:24 npat: not in Common Lisp. 22:52:46 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:52:54 Hence the use of iolib, and the low level i/o it offers. 22:52:55 ok, so they' re prerry much useless for network I/O 22:53:00 right. 22:53:42 Using the IOLib supplied receive / send, can you add timeouts to reads / writes? 22:53:46 But using netio:read-sequence instead of cl:read-sequence solves everything! 22:53:54 npat: yes. 22:53:59 Mustansir [~Mustansir@64.125.182.34] has joined #lisp 22:54:26 Posterdati [~tapioca@host133-226-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 22:54:38 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host133-226-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has left #lisp 22:54:38 pjb, netio? another library, or part of IOLib? 22:54:47 figment of my imagination. 22:54:56 npat: you can also just go with threads. 22:55:01 I'm an adept of wishful programming. 22:55:17 pkhuong, not if you can;t unblock a thread that has blocked reading 22:55:23 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:55:55 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:56:41 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:58:35 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 22:59:02 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 22:59:54 pkhuong, or can you? is there a reliable way to somehow signal / unblock a thread that has blocked while reading / writing? 23:00:18 npat: in unix it's possible. 23:00:49 pjb, how? 23:01:07 It's implementation specific. SBCL has deadlines, which is probably a better idea than unix's kill or interrupt-thread. 23:01:41 pkhuong, interesting, how do they work? any pointers? 23:02:10 Ah right, I confused threads and process, signal(2) only works on processes. 23:02:51 npat: sb-sys:with-deadline. I thought it'd be in sb-ext by now... AFAIK, the only documentation is in the docstring. 23:04:08 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has joined #lisp 23:04:44 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@242.Red-88-24-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 23:06:06 -!- wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:08:23 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 23:08:45 pkhuong, I read the docstring... there deadlines work with blocking I/O on streams? 23:08:45 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:08:54 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.92.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:09:35 there/these 23:12:38 xan_ [~xan@65.Red-95-122-110.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:28 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@c9518865.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:15:38 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-79-59.iburst.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:16:07 -!- dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:16:08 fmeyer [~fmeyer@c9518865.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 23:17:41 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:19:23 antifuchs: you there? 23:19:38 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 23:19:40 npat: It doesn't get much more clear than "blocking IO operations ... respect deadlines". 23:20:24 gigamonkey: ! 23:20:53 What's the first argument to system:make-temp-file-name supposed to be. Some arbitrary string? 23:21:02 -!- oconnore [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 23:21:23 wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:28 wow 23:22:19 AFAICT it's a prefix 23:22:24 which will be prepended to the file name 23:22:54 npat: also, I'm not sure, since I looked into that *years* ago (if not a decade), but I think Unix I/O had timeouts 23:23:15 -!- pavelpenev [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:23:17 sellout- [~Adium@161.98.9.17] has joined #lisp 23:23:25 And presumably the rest of the name will be a number or whatnot. 23:23:40 yeah 23:23:50 I'm not sure that's the safest function to use, though. 23:23:56 I wonder if that function is fast enough to bother having a special case for it in Toot. 23:23:59 check ot with-open-temp-file or mkstemp 23:24:00 Hmmm. Why? 23:24:32 Wow. I just realized how messed up the non-Allegro version in Hunchentoot/Toot is. 23:24:35 I believe make-temp-file-name is pretty much handcrafted. mkstemp is often the better/more secure option. 23:24:56 This seems like something for which there should be a trivial-tmp-file library. 23:25:02 oh yeah. you probably don't want to open your web server to temporary file-related vulnerabilities (: 23:25:12 gigamonkey: I think the resulting name, at least if it followed *nix library functions for that, would be to create "prefix.$PID" 23:25:14 agreed 23:25:38 mkstemp is an Allegro thing? 23:25:47 -!- juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:25:57 gigamonkey: POSIX 23:25:58 excl.osi:mkstemp is a thin allegro wrapper around the posix thing, I believe 23:26:21 4.3BSD, POSIX.1-2001. 23:26:30 -!- gtrak [~gtrak```@173.13.240.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:26:32 p_l: but not universally available from CL without CFFI foo. 23:26:53 gigamonkey: excl.osi:mkstemp. (: 23:26:54 p_l, there is a receive/send-timeout option on sockets (set with setsockopt). If the timeout is hit, then the call eturns either error, or as many bytes as it has read up to the poit. The wrapping library must be able to recognize and support / signal this... 23:27:14 peterhil [~peterhil@GYYMMMCMLVII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 23:27:30 antifuchs: that's just Allego though, right. 23:27:37 you can fall back on sys:make-temp-file-name if that throws an error. but be aware it'll open you up to race conditions (make--name doesn't open the file) 23:27:38 yeah 23:28:43 "either error, or as many bytes as..." -- I believe the latter may apply only if MSG_WAITALL is specified for recv. 23:29:31 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:29:57 akovalenko, you 're probably right... 23:30:33 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 23:31:10 so for IOlib, setting socket timeout and using receiver-from without :wait-all, should work reliably 23:31:39 I wonder if (open file :direction :output :if-exists nil :if-does-not-exist :create) is immune to race conditions? 23:31:51 npat: actually, I think that if the fd is in non-blocking mode, you get to specify timeouts somehow 23:32:06 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:32:16 gigamonkey: it probably is 23:32:54 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:32:55 on SBCL, it probably isn't 23:33:14 p_l, maybe... the documentation is not very clear on this, and I can't follow the code to this point... 23:33:36 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-18-72-100.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:33:48 npat: what do you want to do ? 23:33:55 Can a macro recursively call itself? 23:34:21 fe[nl]ix, read from blocking f/d with timout 23:34:24 Bahman: a macro can /expand/ into a call to itself 23:34:44 Bahman: it could. 23:34:44 fe[nl]ix, or write 23:34:45 -!- Mustansir [~Mustansir@64.125.182.34] has quit [Quit: Mustansir] 23:34:56 akovalenko: Should I use a special syntax or just plain call? 23:34:57 it also could use its own expansion while running - just needs to know when to stop (: 23:35:07 npat: well, you can always use IOlib's support for select/poll 23:35:41 npat: iolib sockets are always non-blocking, so you can use iomux:wait-until-fd-ready 23:36:09 Mustansir [~Mustansir@64.125.180.153] has joined #lisp 23:36:42 Bahman: there is no special syntax, but make sure you understand the difference between expanding /into/ code containing a macro call and /using a macro in the expanding code/ 23:37:48 tehf [~tehf@c-69-255-57-56.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:19 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-208-211-246.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:38:36 I see. Thanks. 23:39:03 superflit [~superflit@71-33-144-170.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:00 fe[nl]ix, yes this will work, thanks! 23:44:25 Bordeaux Threads doesn't have any atomic-incf kind of operation does it? 23:44:33 Don't see anything in the docs by that name. 23:44:44 gigamonkey: ... you know, one thing about PCL is now annoying me. The chapter about databases greatly inflates my "write-your-own" urges when it comes to databases 23:44:53 gigamonkey: sbcl on unix will follow a dangling symlink on :if-does-not-exist :create :if-exists nil. O_EXCL will be there, though, so it's not the maximum insecurity yet :) 23:47:21 p_l: Don't blame me. You're a Lisper. You come by it naturally. 23:48:05 heh 23:48:18 but still, your database example is awesome :D 23:48:33 is there something like find-if which takes more than one list? 23:49:00 -!- zmv [~zmv@c95339f3.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:49:30 madnificent: do you want something that takes several lists, or a tree, or..? 23:49:48 akovalenko: several lists 23:50:13 and what it should do? the same as (find-if ... (append list1 list2)) ? 23:50:14 madnificent: where the predicate takes as many arguments as the number of lists passed? 23:50:26 akovalenko: no, not that way, it should take multiple argumenst :) 23:50:29 gigamonkey: yup 23:50:58 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@186.157.178.47] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 23:51:02 SOME is a possible answer, if you have a good predicate :) 23:51:04 (find-if (lambda (x) (apply yourpred x)) (mapcar #'list lists ...)) 23:51:37 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 23:52:18 gigamonkey: yeah, but then it wouldn't be as sweet as i'd like it. alexandria and place-utils have wakened my pursuit for clearer code :) 23:52:35 madnificent: so, encapsulated it in a function. 23:52:44 madnificent: what it should return? multiple values? 23:52:47 Anyone use the *file-upload-hook* in Hunchentoot? 23:52:50 akovalenko: i think some will do just what i need :) 23:53:13 gigamonkey: yeah, i can make the abstraction myself, but if it'd have existed, i'd have prefered to reuse (especially now that quicklisp exists) 23:54:05 sure. 23:55:34 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-25.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 23:56:35 another question in the same reighn. i have a few functions which i call on a single object, the results are placed in a list. is there a nice way of expressing that? (list (subject a) (predicate a) (object a)) in my case. 23:58:16 I suppose you mean more encapsulated than: (mapcar #'(lambda (f) (funcall f o)) (list #'subject #'predicate #'object)) 23:59:38 gigamonkey: yes, i've abstracted it to something if defined as mapf now, but i wondered if something more standardized had been built before. alexandria didn't seem to help out there.