00:01:05 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@210.Red-88-6-232.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 00:06:12 armence [~armence@unaffiliated/armence] has joined #lisp 00:06:23 -!- vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Quit: ircII EPIC4-2.10 -- Are we there yet?] 00:06:28 Hello, does anyone here use slimv? I'm wondering how to dump the entire buffer into the repl 00:07:35 -!- benny [~benny@i577A813F.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:09:00 nanoc [~conanhome@186.123.68.79] has joined #lisp 00:14:09 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@pool-71-96-211-239.dfw.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:15:19 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:15:52 lutok [~user@ip98-169-240-101.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:21 rtoym: hi 00:16:30 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@186.123.68.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:16:30 wildnux [~wildnux@pool-71-96-211-239.dfw.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:07 vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 00:20:00 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 00:20:15 -!- pon1980 [~pon1980@h195n2-haes-a12.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:21:16 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-44-42.iburst.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:24:01 coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-182-68-199.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:11 daigo [~daigo@EM117-55-65-140.emobile.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 00:32:00 -!- orivej [~orivej@host-73-146-66-217.spbmts.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:33:29 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 00:33:40 qsun [~user@123-243-18-22.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 00:34:19 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:37:03 waveman [~tim@124.170.43.134] has joined #lisp 00:39:42 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-248-241-85.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:49 slyrus: hunchentoot-cgi is busted by hunchentoot 1.2.0 00:41:06 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has joined #lisp 00:41:10 HUNCHENTOOT:LOG-MESSAGE is gone, apparently. 00:41:27 jackrabbit [~jackrabbi@c-67-175-254-108.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:04 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-76-105-139-195.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:44:58 -!- urandom_ [~user@p548A4A47.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:45:30 -!- todun [~todun@SEAS366.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has quit [Quit: :q] 00:51:00 -!- qsun [~user@123-243-18-22.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:51:57 -!- troydm [~troydm@unaffiliated/troydm] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:53:20 The problem with hunchentoot on Windows is really problem with chunga and flexi-streams: the latter initializes *default-eol-style* to CRLF on Windows, and the former doesn't request EOL style explicitly. 00:54:11 qsun [~qsun@66.220.3.138] has joined #lisp 00:57:03 bleakgadfly [~cato@nd.gd] has joined #lisp 01:02:36 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 01:04:13 ..No, the underlying problem with eol-style is in hunchentoot/headers.lisp, where the only call to make-flexi-stream should use '(:iso-8859-1 :eol-style :lf) instead of :iso-8859-1. 01:11:15 *akovalenko* submitted a pull request. 01:11:47 was hunchentoot:log-message deprecated? 01:13:33 hmm. Is the only difference of log-message* v. log-message in the absence of any return value specification? 01:14:20 mikecsh [~mikecsh@113.28.74.33] has joined #lisp 01:14:44 guidj0s [~gdjs@187.39.185.219] has joined #lisp 01:15:48 Shaftoe [~Moe111@modemcable037.54-22-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:16:08 Hi all 01:16:36 I'm having a weird slime formatting error when I create top level macros 01:16:37 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.107.202] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:16:46 wondering if I'm missing something 01:17:00 gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.107.202] has joined #lisp 01:17:53 X-Scale [email@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has joined #lisp 01:17:53 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.107.202] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:17:58 (defmacro foo (&body body) body) 01:18:12 when I type "(test-foo ()", hit return, and then tab 01:18:19 I get the the following slime error: 01:18:39 "test-foo has a badly-formed common-lisp-indent-function property: ((common-lisp-user)) 01:18:40 " 01:18:52 what gives? 01:19:24 s/test-foo/foo/ 01:19:39 -!- rgrau_` [~user@56.Red-79-158-72.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 01:20:01 *Xach* can't reproduce locally 01:20:25 Ok. that's encouraging. I'll update my slime and "stuff" 01:20:25 thanks. 01:20:54 Where did you get your slime? I'm using the 2011-09-28 version from quicklisp, I think. 01:21:34 sellout- [~Adium@67.139.65.163] has joined #lisp 01:22:37 had 2010-11-13. 01:22:40 am upgrading now 01:23:07 Shaftoe that foo will expand to (()) 01:23:56 cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.212.7] has joined #lisp 01:24:08 but after reading further that doesn't seem to be your issue 01:24:35 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:24:44 aye. also, it'll expand to body, blindly. 01:24:52 but the point was that I made the most basic form to test 01:25:03 I'm upgrading my slime and swank right now to check if it changes anything 01:26:11 hmpf. no dice. deadline at the end of the hall. I'll check it out later. 01:29:10 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-182-68-199.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 01:30:57 Hello, does anyone here use slimv? I'm wondering how to dump the entire buffer into the repl. 01:33:39 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.212.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:33:39 armence: not many people here. i wonder if there's a slimv mailing list or something where people who use it discuss it. 01:34:21 gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.107.202] has joined #lisp 01:37:12 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-109-193.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:39:36 LiamH [~healy@pool-108-45-22-54.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:39:56 oconnore [~Eric@68-116-172-147.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:41:51 hmm. 01:42:55 Xach: maybe you know. I just downloaded the slime package for Aquamacs, it's at 2011-11-13 01:43:08 slime checkout from cvs gives me only 2011-10-19 01:43:09 futuristic 01:43:14 indeed =) 01:43:21 hah 01:43:24 I just realized. 01:43:25 hm. 01:43:36 this is a pain. I have to somehow rollback this package 01:43:38 ok, thanks. 01:43:38 Did it improve your test case? 01:44:00 no, now the whole slime thing is broken. I get weirdo errors making work difficult. I need to roll back somehow 01:44:10 I'll clean up after my own mess =) 01:45:39 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:45:46 -!- sellout- [~Adium@67.139.65.163] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:46:03 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-109-193.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:45 broken tools make me very angry 01:53:18 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-44-148.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 01:55:40 cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.212.7] has joined #lisp 01:55:46 nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:57 -!- lutok [~user@ip98-169-240-101.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:56:21 kennyd_ [~kennyd@78-0-219-220.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 01:56:33 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-163-175.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:58:00 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:58:06 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 01:59:51 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 02:00:59 jmckitrick [~user@108-77-157-187.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:43 -!- jmckitrick [~user@108-77-157-187.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:03:06 superflit_ [~superflit@71-33-156-49.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:34 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-33-156-49.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:03:34 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 02:05:04 jack_rabbit [~jackrabbi@c-67-175-254-108.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:02 -!- jack_rabbit [~jackrabbi@c-67-175-254-108.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:06:58 -!- S1am [~guest@eth-209.20-homell.natm.ru] has left #lisp 02:07:53 -!- millerti [~millerti@76-232-38-36.lightspeed.clmboh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: millerti] 02:12:19 Kron [~Kron@69.166.22.207] has joined #lisp 02:12:45 -!- Kron is now known as Guest54107 02:13:07 Shaftoe: please use a sensible syntax: (voice :class "marvin the martian" "broken tools make me very angry") 02:13:14 *madnificent* hopes it's fixed by now :) 02:13:19 =) 02:13:40 it's not. But worse still is that I'm procrastinating watching Marvin the Martian videos. 02:13:45 productivity is to 0 02:13:51 then stop doing that 02:13:58 I just did =) 02:13:59 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:14:04 *madnificent* heads to bed after a productive late night of coding 02:14:09 the power of introspection. 02:14:16 gnight 02:14:31 heh. http://www.jucs.org/jucs_11_7/the_implementation_of_lua/jucs_11_7_1159_1176_defigueiredo.html#fig8 <--- beautfiul comparison between stack and register machine :) 02:14:31 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.107.202] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:15:00 gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.107.202] has joined #lisp 02:16:28 good night 02:17:01 -!- spacemanaki [~spacemana@cpe-74-66-71-20.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: spacemanaki] 02:17:25 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 02:26:50 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 02:30:44 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483C249.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:31:11 -!- oconnore [~Eric@68-116-172-147.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:33:55 orivej [~orivej@host-49-152-66-217.spbmts.ru] has joined #lisp 02:34:14 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@pool-71-96-211-239.dfw.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:35:01 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 02:35:09 -!- qsun [~qsun@66.220.3.138] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:36:10 qsun [~qsun@66.220.3.138] has joined #lisp 02:36:43 drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:11 troydm [~troydm@unaffiliated/troydm] has joined #lisp 02:43:51 p_l: this doesn't mean anything. If you were compiling FORTH, the stack machine would give nicer code than the register machine. 02:44:00 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:46:03 pjb: forth is IMHO a corner case, due to its internal structure 02:46:51 Well, clisp VM is basically a stack machine too. It gives nicer code than x86... 02:47:25 -!- daigo [~daigo@EM117-55-65-140.emobile.ad.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:47:31 The point is that that comparison is invalid be cause 1- it depends on the source language being compiled 2- it depends on the details of the register machine or the stack machine. 02:47:55 (Well it is valid in the context of LUA, not in general as you implied) 02:48:34 Administrator [~quassel@bas2-toronto61-2925081121.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:48:42 pjb: hmm... right, my statement was too general 02:49:00 -!- Administrator is now known as Guest21946 02:49:31 pjb: factor disagrees and compiles Forth-like code to a register-based IR. 02:49:32 sneaky installer package 02:49:56 to use a meme, I should say: scumbag Aquamacs slime installer. 02:50:05 Otherwise it's an interesting problem. The complexity of the machine vs the complexity of the code need to implement a given algorithm. 02:50:08 pretends to install library on your computer. Does nothing. 02:50:25 Shaftoe: use quicklisp to install libraries. 02:50:50 this is not server side. this is the slime package for the Aquamacs editor 02:50:56 -!- guidj0s [~gdjs@187.39.185.219] has quit [Quit: 0] 02:51:08 Shaftoe: use quicklisp-slime-helper 02:52:25 I appreciate the advice. The issue was that following the steps listed on the aquamacs homepage itself was the problem. 02:52:29 I've solved my problem. 02:52:34 -!- orivej [~orivej@host-49-152-66-217.spbmts.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:54:42 Shaftoe: a mixed quicklisp/aquamacs/hand-rolled install probably doesn't conform to the homepage's expectations. 02:55:48 simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:55:48 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 02:55:48 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 03:00:28 -!- Shaftoe [~Moe111@modemcable037.54-22-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: Shaftoe] 03:01:20 nanoc [~conanhome@186.12.206.206] has joined #lisp 03:09:59 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:15:58 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:25:14 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:27:23 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 03:33:41 -!- __main__ [~main@adsl-99-173-15-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:38:10 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 03:43:21 __main__ [~main@adsl-99-173-15-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:11 -!- nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:47:46 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 03:48:10 nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:59:45 armence: ,b evaluates the entire buffer in slimv 04:04:20 ehine1 [~ericyoda@rrcs-72-43-70-106.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:05:10 -!- el-maxo [~max@p5DE8E5D4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:07:02 el-maxo [~max@p5DE8DCEA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:34 xshoppyx [~xshoppyx@pcp070118pcs.wireless.calpoly.edu] has joined #lisp 04:12:20 Don't take this the wrong way, but why does a language that doesn't allow recursion have no need for a stack? 04:12:56 xshoppyx: because the stack size is bounded. 04:13:16 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-108-45-22-54.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:13:25 alternatively, because you can assign each variable a static location in memory. 04:13:31 Can you elaborate more? 04:13:42 What I will take the wrong way is why you're asking this here. 04:14:01 xshoppyx: look into how old Fortran used to work. 04:14:10 There's no compsci channel or anything similar I could find 04:14:36 And people in #lisp definitely understand recursion 04:16:53 daniel [~daniel@p508298A7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:17:05 -!- nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:19:38 -!- daniel__ [~daniel@p5B326A58.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:23:00 -!- Guest21946 [~quassel@bas2-toronto61-2925081121.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:24:32 xshoppyx: a stack is a region of memory, you don't technically need it all all if you have an executable heap. you can simulate a stack on the heap. but it is very convenient for stack discipline languages. and you gotta put instruction for execution and values /somewhere/ so the stack is damn convenient. 04:26:08 -!- jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:27:27 psilord [~psilord@76.201.144.59] has joined #lisp 04:27:32 -!- psilord [~psilord@76.201.144.59] has left #lisp 04:31:27 tali713: what are you talking about? 04:38:17 tali713: I'm pretty sure it's extremely unusual to execute anything on the stack... 04:38:45 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:40:48 Ralith: sorry, my error, i meant you could actually just use a heap. but yes, instructions and stack are in different segments. 04:41:22 i was thinking one thing when i started writing and something different at the end. :( 04:43:38 w7nz7k [~w7nz7k@201.141.206.186] has joined #lisp 04:44:01 hi! what is the equivalent for "#!/bin/bash" in lisp? 04:45:07 w7nz7k: the usual executable header of the platform its running on 04:46:21 p_l: thank's for the reply... but i dit not understand, i am very new to all this, care to explain? 04:46:27 *did 04:47:03 w7nz7k: usually when you make an application using Common Lisp, you create an executable. Just like C and other languages 04:47:33 so, your question was kinda like "what is the equivalent of '#!/bin/bash' for C?" 04:47:56 ah! lisp gets compiled, of course1 04:47:57 ! 04:48:20 thanks a lot. 04:48:21 w7nz7k: the exact method of producing a self-standing executable differ from implementation to implementation. IIRC Xach's buildapp had some framework for it 04:48:54 well, technically lisp /is/ an interpreted language you could use a #! line, except i don't think that's a valid comment. 04:49:53 you can use hashbang line with certain implementations (SBCL even puts it in its FASLs - think object files - so you can just mark them executable, but it's a flimsy thing) 04:49:55 tali713: again what are you talking about? Languages aren't interpreted; implementations are. 04:50:12 GNU CLISP also had some mode that supported hashbang header 04:51:18 *akovalenko* is reminded of my http://paste.lisp.org/+2OKX 04:52:38 nice. 04:52:51 akovalenko: there's a polyglot file somewhere which is a valid binary program for DOS (COM format), PostScript source (acceptable by printers!), I think as well as COBOL and few other things 04:53:46 ah, this: http://ideology.com.au/polyglot/ 04:54:18 pkhuong: lisp is always an interpreted language. unless it has no repl. if it has no capacity to have a repl, i have to wonder if it is lisp. common lisp certainly can always interpret common lisp. common lisp is an interpreted language. (that may also be compiled) 04:54:42 tali713: that's... untrue 04:55:24 p_l: what is? 04:55:24 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.107.202] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:55:35 tali713: SBCL's evaluator was for a long time bitrotten, and even now is AFAIK not used except for simplest things. Everything else goes through COMPILE 04:55:57 gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.107.202] has joined #lisp 04:55:58 jmckitrick [~user@108-77-157-187.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:02 tali713: your statement about lisp being always interpreted 04:56:02 tali713: I have a C REPL. 04:56:24 -!- jmckitrick [~user@108-77-157-187.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:56:25 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.107.202] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:56:28 p_l: i don't care how it interprets it, it is still being interpreted. 04:56:50 gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.107.202] has joined #lisp 04:56:52 that's silly. 04:57:00 tali713: just like all other code executed by CPU, it's interpreted by CPU's instruction decoder 04:57:01 <|3b|> tali713: so in other words, you are a troll? 04:57:05 -!- w7nz7k [~w7nz7k@201.141.206.186] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:57:06 Zulu_Inuoe [~zulu12@c-174-58-204-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:57:17 no extra interpreter in between 04:57:35 |3b|: no, in other words lisp can always read from a text file and execute the code. which is an important feature. 04:57:36 even if tali713 is no troll, we're still trolled :-E 04:57:54 tali713: that's because you have a compiler as part of the runtime 04:57:56 <|3b|> tali713: but you specifically declaimed any useful definition of 'interpret' 04:58:10 <|3b|> but insist on asserting that 'interpreted' is a property of CL 04:58:18 <|3b|> (as opposed to an implementation of CL) 04:58:31 p_l: again i don't care how you choose to implement the capacity to read and execute written code, as long as it /is/ available. 04:58:32 <|3b|> every language can be read from a text file and executed 04:58:41 by definition?> 04:58:42 tali713: then everything is interpreted 04:59:16 but not every language is defined in such a way that access is always available. 04:59:41 -!- xshoppyx [~xshoppyx@pcp070118pcs.wireless.calpoly.edu] has quit [Quit: xshoppyx] 04:59:47 tali713: the way you defined it, every single language ever has it 04:59:48 <|3b|> every language with a defined text representation is by definition defined that way 05:00:02 <|3b|> (note that CL actually /isn;t/ defined in terms of a text representation) 05:00:03 |3b|: doesn't have to be text 05:00:17 <|3b|> p_l: for the definition of 'reads text file and executes it' it doez 05:00:57 i don't care how you choose to implement the capacity to read and execute written code. I think I can fit a galaxy or two through that loophole 05:02:00 technically, the case of Cray manually inputting OS image into memory with switches, using *hardcopy*, fulfills that 05:02:08 p_l: then lets make it simple, can the language read code written in it's own native expression and execute it without adding any additional libraries. lisp can, always. 05:02:32 <|3b|> tali713: a 'language' can't do anything 05:02:40 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-109-193.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: no more] 05:02:46 <|3b|> it is just a specification that defines the interpretation of some input 05:03:01 <|3b|> implementations of that language /do/ things 05:03:11 <|3b|> CL doesn't read code, sbcl reads code 05:03:18 <|3b|> C doesn't read code, GCC reads code 05:03:22 tali713: here's a conforming CL implementation: (error "Out of memory"). 05:03:27 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:03:31 <|3b|> CL can be implemented without a REPL 05:03:38 also, CL spec explicitly suggest the existence of subsets, that might for example have no compiler or even reader 05:03:43 <|3b|> C can be implemented with a REPL 05:04:25 and actually started out as interpreted language ;-) 05:04:40 |3b|: or with a #!-compatible evaluator. 05:04:54 <|3b|> right 05:06:08 |3b|: i acknowledge your pedantics, but the truth is that languages do specify behavior, and the statement any conforming interpreter of the language is ridiculously verbose. so if i say a language has a capacity, i mean the language defines that capacity. 05:06:32 <|3b|> tali713: where does CL specify that ability? 05:07:31 tali713: CL does not require an interpreter. 05:07:39 <|3b|> actually, it probably does, i forgot we were using meaninglessly overgeneralized terms 05:07:55 MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-28-68.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 05:08:07 "Symbol's function definition is void: slime-enclosing-form-specs" <--- What I get trying to M-. with latest quicklisp slime 05:08:09 read evaluate print. i may be wrong and print may not be required by the spec. 05:08:34 tali713: evaluation is not interpretation. 05:08:43 nor is reading. 05:08:56 but reading and evaluating is. 05:09:02 no. 05:09:16 The specification lays it out quite clearly: "Such execution might be implemented directly in one step by an interpreter or in two steps by first compiling the form and then executing the compiled code; this choice is dependent both on context and the nature of the implementation, but in any case is not in general detectable by any program." 05:09:59 yes. either one gives you the instant capacity to build an interpreter. 05:10:03 -!- Guest54107 [~Kron@69.166.22.207] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 05:10:23 <|3b|> tali713: as does a C compiler 05:10:49 tali713: please brush up on your reading comprehension. The specification explicitly allows for the absence of an interpreter. 05:10:52 since the implementation is a feature of the implementation. but the functions defined and their outcome is a feature of the languiage. 05:10:59 And you argue that this absence is equivalent to the present of an interpreter. 05:11:36 parabolize [~gyro@c-75-71-247-61.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:13:06 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has joined #lisp 05:14:08 pkhuong: the definition lays out two approaches to executing code which is read, a one part interpreter or an interpreter broken in to distinct parts, a compilation step and an execution step. since compilation and execution define an interpreter there is no need to build a distinct interpretter if you have chosen that implementation. 05:15:04 tali713: sure, if the absence of an interpreter is equivalent to its existence, then go ahead and play with empty words. 05:15:16 You're conflating evaluation and interpretation. 05:16:59 pkhuong: no, i am talking about an action taken on a representation. i really don't care if you choose to define that action in 1 step or 1000 steps. a composed function is still a function, the parts inside are easily forgotten. 05:17:28 by the same token, posix defines a C interpreter. 05:17:55 yes, but C does not. 05:18:28 though that's a much bigger proof. 05:18:40 tali713: that's a useless definition of interpreter. 05:19:37 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@222.126.197.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:19:48 not really, though perhaps, rarely interpreted vs not-rarely interpreted would be more useful. 05:20:23 compiled is meaningless since all languages can be compiled these days. 05:20:48 tali713: how can compiled be meaningless but interpreted meaningful? 05:21:31 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:21:33 "English is usually misunderstood" 05:21:33 I believe this must be the third time: you're looking for the word "evaluator". 05:21:47 <|3b|> tali713: so why not talk about implementations that /do/ or /do not/ compile or interpret or whatever rather than trying to generalize to languages? 05:22:45 because i am not talking about implementation details i am talking about language features. 05:24:03 tali713: you just argued that the interpreter is an implementation artefact. The existence of an evaluator is the feature. 05:24:44 right, this is correct but evaluators don't read very well. 05:24:52 does everyone here agree that English is normally misunderstood? well, some weird people do understand it, but it's just their personal trait. _As language_, English is not understandable. 05:25:33 -!- mikecsh [~mikecsh@113.28.74.33] has quit [Quit: mikecsh] 05:25:56 tali713: it reads well enough to have an entry in the CLHS glossary. That's where my quote about interpreter vs compilation + execution comes from. 05:27:39 right, but those are /both/ interpreters. interpretation is the act of reading code in and converting it to instructions. it is a very simple word, it means translating from one language to another. in a computer context it means translating from readable for to executable form. both options achieve this goal. 05:28:09 tali713: not in common lisp, and not in many other people's mind. 05:28:15 though in both cases it's not an interpreter if it doesn't also read. 05:28:31 -!- Dodek [dodek@nolajf.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:28:40 tali713: actually "interpreting" has more than one meaning, and that's not the one used in IT 05:28:40 Evaluation of source code is what an evaluator does. 05:29:09 no it does not, you need to read it too. 05:31:13 tali713: for what it's worth, Common Lisp evaluators don't perform reading either. 05:31:23 of course not. 05:31:37 I hope I'm not stepping on toes here, and I don't mean to butt into a conversation, but the argument here is whether or not lisp requires an interpreter in it's implementation? 05:31:48 jackrabbit: there's no argument. 05:31:53 -!- jackrabbit is now known as jack_rabbit 05:32:01 jackrabbit: close, it is whether or not lisp is an interpreted language. 05:32:19 Ahh. I see. 05:32:38 That is a question I have been pondering since setting out learning it. 05:32:38 i never argued that lisp must have an interpreter build in, but it's specification guarantees that it can be interpreted. 05:32:58 <|3b|> i thought it was about how to define 'interpret'? 05:32:58 this conversation, by definition is all semantics 05:33:07 Since code can be defined dynamically, isn't that a given? 05:33:09 tali713: can you think of a language that cannot be interpreted? 05:33:18 jack_rabbit: evaluation is not interpretation. 05:33:36 jack_rabbit: the Common Lisp specification even says so in its glossary. 05:33:39 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:33:48 Dodek [~dodek@nolajf.pl] has joined #lisp 05:33:51 Ralith: no. but i can think of many who don't have it as a guarantee. but since all languages are turing complete it is always possible. 05:34:00 So once it is compiled, dynamically defined code is in terms of commands, not interpretable instructions? 05:34:07 then such a guarantee as you propose is meaningless. 05:34:12 pkhuong only sees what's in lisp specification and on purpose doesn't try to understand anything beyond that, tali713 has some other undefined glossary that he uses 05:34:14 *once the parent code is compiled, that is? 05:34:34 jack_rabbit: I don't know what you mean by "commands," but I'm pretty sure the exact details of what 'eval' does are implementation-defined. 05:34:44 interesting. 05:34:58 most popular implementations will compile stuff. 05:35:11 the common way of arguing about languages is by using the specifications of common lisp 05:35:19 guaqua: no, I do understand how the word is used by practicioners (the same way as the CL spec), but tali713 seems to be hell bent on being both vague and pedantic. 05:35:21 tali713: additionally, if you define interpretation as you propose, then every compiler is an interpreter and again, the distinction becomes meaningless. 05:35:45 I guess, to clear up my question, a compiled function that defines code defines that code in a way that it can be evaluated without first being interpreted? 05:35:46 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 05:35:54 guaqua: in that context, the best I can do is restrict myself to the topic, Common Lisp. 05:36:21 jack_rabbit: it's a continuum, and like porn, we know it when we see it. 05:36:39 So maybe, maybe not? 05:36:52 implementation-defined. 05:37:06 pkhuong: as i see it, you can either try to get to a conclusion by defining some terms or not defining those terms and not get into a conclusion 05:37:18 jack_rabbit: for many people, the limit is probably around direct threaded and subroutine threaded code. 05:37:27 Ralith: hmm, is the existence of a compiler guaranteed by the C standard? the existence of read and the critical feature eval are in lisp. 05:37:59 tali713: no. There are C interpreters. 05:38:08 Ralith: this is not meant as a snarky question, suddenly i am pondering whether that is a valid statement, if so, you may have convinced me. 05:38:09 pkhuong: I'm confused about what that means. 05:38:20 if the person you are debating with is not willing to fix any terms in the conversation to some common definitions, the conversation will not reach accepting state 05:38:27 pkhuong: yes there are C interpreters. 05:38:52 -!- Dodek [~dodek@nolajf.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:38:53 jack_rabbit: google isn't.. 05:38:56 just as there are CL interpreters. 05:39:06 pkhuong: fair enough. 05:39:07 well, I think there are. 05:39:29 I don't actually know an impelementation I can say with confidence doesn't do any compilation under any circumstances 05:39:40 people writing that sort of thing tend to implement scheme, I think 05:40:11 even clisp has some sort of bytecode, iirc. 05:40:22 so if a C interpreter was internally defined using a jit compiler than it wouldn't be an interpreter? 05:40:40 tali713: you're talking about a C evaluator. 05:41:03 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.27.236] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:41:12 tali713: your questions reflect internally inconsistent understanding, if any, of the terms. 05:41:57 pkhuong: I see now. In a subroutine-threaded lisp implementation of a program, would that program consist of CLISP (or somesuch) and then the program file itself, then? 05:42:52 xwolf- [~redmundia@84.122.73.141.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 05:42:53 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-28-68.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:42:55 pkhuong: as opposed to a single executable? 05:43:07 jack_rabbit: this irrelevant. 05:43:19 jack_rabbit: they're just implementation techniques. 05:44:09 pkhuong: sorry. I guess I hijacked the conversation. 05:44:40 jack_rabbit: no, I'm just trying to prevent misconceptions from spreading. 05:44:43 Ralith: i have trouble understanding what to call the class of programs that read programs and interpret their codes to machine code for execution. if you have a reference that would clarify why doing this in a certain number of steps changes what you call that type of program i would be happy to read it. 05:44:52 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 05:45:01 Dodek [dodek@nolajf.pl] has joined #lisp 05:45:16 tali713: converting the output of parsers to machine code is very commonly recognized as compilation. 05:45:47 pkhuong: i understand how you are using the language. i have no disagreements with what you are meaning. 05:45:47 wolfpython [~wolf@58.212.238.238] has joined #lisp 05:45:50 In most people mind, there's a definite opposition between compilation and interpretation. 05:45:54 tali713: I have no interest in finding technical dictionaries for you, much less inevitably recursing through definitions every time you move the goalposts. 05:46:49 Ralith: no i am quite serious, i will except what you are saying if you give me an idea where to look. i grew up with interpreted languages and thought i understood the meaning, if i am wrong i am okay with that. 05:47:26 Ralith: if you don't want to point me in the right direction, i can understand your frustration. 05:47:27 jack_rabbit: they're just different ways to define sequences of operations. One is directly executable by the CPU, and the other requires a trivial dispatch loop. The difference in most architectures is on the order of one or two bytes per operation. 05:47:30 tali713: you have different definition for interpretation and you use it in place of evaluation, that's the core problem in understanding here 05:47:38 I suggest looking here, where you have recieved multiple expert opinions. 05:48:51 interpretation vs compilation is explained there by pkhuong: directly executable by CPU vs using a preprogrammed dispatch-loop 05:48:51 pkhuong: alright. How about this: do functions that produce code produce it in a human-readable LISP syntax, and does that depend on whether the parent function is compiled or not? 05:48:57 I hate to argue from authority, but that seems to be what you're looking for: you realize that amongst the populace of this channel are the people who *write* that kind of book? 05:49:02 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:49:19 Ralith: oh, indeed. that's why i didn't mention the authority thing. :) 05:49:27 pkhuong: I know it is kind of a triviality, but I'm curious about the structure of the language. 05:49:28 and that one should've been the other way around 05:49:40 Ralith: i thought about it, but thought the better of it. 05:49:44 -!- Dodek [dodek@nolajf.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:49:45 you have been pointed in the right direction. 05:49:49 gienah [~mwright@ppp121-44-88-164.lns20.syd6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:50:02 The CPU is an interpreter for its ISA though 05:50:29 jack_rabbit: maybe and no, respectively. 05:50:29 of course, it's implemented in hardware, 05:50:32 jack_rabbit I would think that's implementation dependant. SBCL compiles everything to machine code by default IIRC 05:50:32 Ralith: i was hoping for a more language agnostic source. but i can find my own way. 05:50:37 Dodek [dodek@nolajf.pl] has joined #lisp 05:50:58 (I wonder what a compiler implemented in hardware would bea machine which procedurally designs ASICs?) 05:51:22 pkhuong: What determines the output of such a function then? 05:51:25 Ralith: FPGA that writes its own bitstream 05:51:27 tali713: details vary, but you'll find the general idea remains unchanged. 05:51:29 Ralith: well, I know a few people who can JIT scheme to FPGAs, and the JITCs are written in scheme. 05:51:35 jack_rabbit: the function. 05:51:46 p_l: I thought FPGA firmware was a sort of software. 05:51:54 Ralith: thank you, i really am not trying to troll. 05:51:55 I don't really know anything about them, though 05:52:08 Ralith: it sets connections between nodes on FPGA 05:52:13 ah. 05:52:18 neat! 05:52:37 pkhuong: To get it to literally output lisp code, would that involve printing the function definition to a file then? 05:52:41 pkhuong: that is also neat! 05:53:01 Ralith: so the end result is basically the same as if it was fixed form ASIC 05:53:18 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:53:20 just more expensive to mass-produce? 05:53:20 jack_rabbit: it depends on your definition of lisp code. I prefer to think of it as graph of values in memory. 05:53:39 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 05:53:49 p_l: FPGAs can rewrite their configuration at runtime. 05:53:50 -!- xwolf- [~redmundia@84.122.73.141.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: Chateando desde http://webchat.redmundial.org (EOF)] 05:54:08 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Client Quit] 05:54:08 Ralith: and very wasteful in circuit space and energy. 05:54:23 It's fitting that a language of abstraction results in abstract arguments and definitions 05:54:27 pkhuong: yes, that's what I suggested as hw compiler 05:54:32 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 05:54:34 tali713: reading up on the futamura projections may help straighten out your thought process. 05:54:41 Ralith: so, one last question, i should completely disregard the wikipedia entry? :) 05:54:48 Ralith: okay, i'll do that. 05:54:52 I'm not familiar with it. 05:54:54 /act 05:55:00 argh 05:55:12 p_l: in that case, the end result of FPGAs isn't equivalent to an ASIC, except trivially. 05:55:21 rigth 05:55:23 Ralith: it's probably not very good, that was a joke really. 05:55:48 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Client Quit] 05:55:56 tali713: the futamura projections describe what I found to be a very intuitive summary of the relationship between a compiler and an interpreter. 05:56:04 and concise, too. 05:56:08 Ralith: depending on your goals, though, FPGAs might be cheaper and more efficient than normal ASIC 05:56:09 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 05:56:11 if a little tricky to grasp. 05:56:24 p_l: yeah; one-offs vs. mass-production, right? 05:56:38 (or even very small scale runs; I think my head-tracking camera has a FPGA on it) 05:56:39 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 05:56:58 Ralith: not only that 05:57:14 Ralith: yeah i'm looking at it right now, thank you for the reference. 05:57:14 oh? 05:57:18 Ralith: how much of a partial evaluator must the partial evaluator be to qualify? There's a fairly interesting point of view that looks at the asymptotic performance of repeated self-"compilation". 05:57:27 Ralith: there's a lot to be gained from reconfigurable hw 05:57:34 pkhuong: I'm afraid I don't follow. 05:57:38 p_l: ah, of course. 05:57:44 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Client Quit] 05:58:05 Ralith: you could even make it continuously optimize itself to task 05:58:09 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 05:58:41 Ralith: I'm not sure the projection explicitly considers performance. In that case, a partial evaluator could simply store both the function and the partially-applied arguments in a trampoline (i.e. implement them as regular closures) 05:58:42 pkhuong: I don't have a ton of experience with partial evaluation; I'm playing with one for the purposes of making fexprs performant, but haven't gotten terribly far. 05:58:48 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Client Quit] 05:58:48 oh sure 05:58:55 I see what you mean 05:59:10 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 05:59:12 yeah, it's a perspective that doesn't necessarily imply performance distinctions 05:59:19 -!- Dodek [dodek@nolajf.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:59:20 but it can be easily understood to 06:00:26 nikodemus` [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:00:33 The performance-oriented point of view is interesting. A metacircular interpreter being interpreted ... by an interpreter will be progressively slower as we add an interpretation layer. Compilers don't suffer from that. For instance, the binary SBCL that are available for downloads can probably be traced through hundreds of compilation cycles through funky CMUCL and MacLisp code. 06:00:51 if one imagines a more or less complete (is this the right term?) partial evaluator, then you get exactly the results you'd expect. 06:00:57 am I right? 06:01:01 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Client Quit] 06:01:22 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 06:01:54 certainly a partial evaluator which in repeated application adds overhead is plausable (arguably moreso than the alternative), but I think one which does not can exist. 06:02:39 gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:02:50 and even if not, it's a convenient abstract concept for use in understanding the interpreter/compiler distinction through the futamura projections. 06:03:31 Ralith: there's at least one definition (I think Jones uses it) that requires self-application not to introduce slowdowns (at the limit). 06:03:43 well then. 06:03:56 (Jones?) 06:04:53 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:04:59 Neil Jones. 06:05:10 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-29.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:05:15 -!- wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-29.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:05:27 good mornig 06:05:33 ning, even 06:06:25 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Quit: goodbye blue sky, goodbye] 06:06:48 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:07:43 hi, is there a format option which escapes strings automatically? 06:08:15 like, (format nil "..~a.." '("hi")) =?=> "..(\"hi\").." 06:08:41 bege: ~S will print readably. 06:09:11 pkhuong: that is perfect, thanks 06:11:21 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:12:24 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:12:25 Dodek [dodek@nolajf.pl] has joined #lisp 06:13:11 ... CommonQT just jumped much higher on my list of favourite projects 06:14:29 xshoppyx [~xshoppyx@66-169-234-166.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 06:15:57 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-235.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:17:10 why the functionality of QT:ENSURE-SMOKE isn't better advertised, I have no idea o_O 06:17:38 p_l: wassit? 06:18:05 pkhuong: incidentally, since you seem to know the field somewhat, do you know if anything's been written on partial evaluation in the context of first-class environments? 06:18:59 Ralith: I don't know the field, really. Your best bet is to look at what Shutt's got, or just send him an email. 06:19:08 Ralith: it's your "5 minute per library" C++ FFI support :> 06:19:20 p_l: whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat 06:19:23 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-44-148.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:19:29 -!- quackv2 [~quack@vps-1058467-4367.manage.myhosting.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:19:54 pkhuong: already contacted himhe pointed me towards people who didn't seem to be much, if at all, further along than I am 06:19:55 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-44-148.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 06:21:03 Ralith: you prepare a smoke config for your library, use smokegen to generate the smoke linking library, compile it, then load it with (qt:ensure-smoke "yourlib") (where "yourlib" is the SONAME without libsmoke, that is, libsmoke.so) 06:21:51 p_l: why has this not been branched off into its own standalone swig-like project o.O 06:22:18 it's probably untested outside of Qt-based libs, so it might be breaking some assumptions... but damn 06:22:18 Ralith: I believe that project is called smoke. 06:22:43 pkhuong: which seems to be a component of qt, I mean. 06:23:11 p_l: Qt's moc stuff does add a lot of reflection to C++, iirc :/ 06:23:18 might not be at all workable outside of that 06:23:22 Ralith: It's actually part of KDE project, and isn't Qt-dependant (it has extra handling for Qt's MOC, though) 06:23:29 Ralith: okay so call me an idiot if i'm wrong, so if an evaluator immediately compiles an sexp before any of it is evaluated it can't reasonably called an interpreter. 06:24:03 tali713: depends on a myriad of details; if it recompiles a function every time it executes it, for example, I'd still call it an interpreter. 06:24:24 *|3b|* wouldn't, i'd just call that stupid :p 06:24:24 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.107.202] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:24:24 Ralith: i see, i think i am clear on the distinction now. 06:24:30 tali713: not in the world in which compilation is opposed to interpretation. 06:24:42 gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.107.202] has joined #lisp 06:24:52 p_l: so it's safe for use on non-Qt code? 06:25:30 |3b|: well, the distinction between "eval that generates machine code, executes it, and discards it" and "eval that implements everything metacircularly on top of a compiled impl" doesn't seem very large. 06:25:32 pkhuong: of course, since in the generalist of terms every language is compiled and interpreted. that's why i said /reasonable/. 06:25:35 daigo [~daigo@EM117-55-65-139.emobile.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 06:25:45 |3b|: a matter of reordering the same operations, almost. 06:26:16 tali713: no, in general languages are neithr compiled nor interpreted. However, compilation and interpretation are generally considered to be two extremes in the continuum of evaluators. 06:26:33 tali713: I think your general sense is right, though your jargon isn't quite spot on 06:26:40 -!- bleakgadfly [~cato@nd.gd] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 06:26:48 Ralith: i'll work on it. 06:26:57 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 06:27:01 Ralith: I think it might be worth looking into profile-guided JIT compilation. It's certainly easier to ensure termination when you're only specialising codepaths that have actually been executed. 06:27:19 <|3b|> compiling and discarding something evaluated once is one thing, recompiling everything it calls too, and stuff that calls, etc every time seems a bit intentionally bad 06:27:22 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 06:27:22 tali713: so, trivially, if an evaluator compiles, it's not an interpreter. 06:27:49 pkhuong: yes, i see. 06:28:33 |3b|: quiz: how does LLVM implement fully dynamic function calls (i.e. apply)? 06:28:51 pkhuong: I'm rather attracted to the idea of having the option to produce a simple binary with easily reproducible performance characteristics. 06:29:05 Ralith: by the way, spot on recommendation with that article. 06:29:16 tali713: glad it helped! 06:29:22 <|3b|> pkhuong: no idea, i may be interpreting the comment i'm responding to differently from everyone else though 06:29:24 I didn't actually recommend an article, though, just a concept 06:30:12 Ralith: yeah, i just went to as primary of a source as possible. kind of a habit. 06:30:13 Ralith: looks like it 06:30:18 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:30:48 *|3b|* isn't objecting to runtime compilation, just runtime compilation with no caching at all 06:30:50 p_l: well, damn. I'll have to read up on that; that could save me some serious pain. 06:30:56 my only problem is the the fact CommonQT has support for max 16 modules, it seems. I'll have to dig into code to check if it was changed later 06:31:03 |3b|: it does the "stupid" thing. Compile a thunk that executes the call, JIT it, call the thunk, destroy the thunk (: 06:31:10 mishoo [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has joined #lisp 06:31:20 |3b|: right, it's not a sane thing to do 06:32:01 msxx [~msxx@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 06:32:41 p_l: it still seems strange that this is part of a Qt binding, if not the Qt project proper, though. 06:32:43 <|3b|> pkhuong: i think i can sort of see that being more sane than the general case 06:33:14 <|3b|> distinction being 'function call' vs 'function' 06:33:37 yeah, currently CommonQT allows for loading of at most 16 smoke modules, but that can be changed 06:33:47 especially on 64bit platforms 06:34:29 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:35:15 since on those we could expand from 22 bit to ~60 06:37:09 still, I just fixed my problem of not having OpenCV bindings 06:37:14 I haven't the slightest idea why that matters o.O 06:37:18 OpenCV is C++? 06:37:25 Ralith: yes 06:37:29 weird 06:37:33 oh 06:37:38 I was thinking OpenVG for some reason 06:38:10 *|3b|* should probably be using OpenCV :p 06:38:10 as for the 22bit thing, CommonQT uses a cache to avoid resolving C++ objects twice 06:38:19 is there any way to convert the smoke bindings to standalone form? 06:38:29 resolving C++ objects? 06:38:34 *Ralith* is somewhat lost. 06:38:39 Ralith: not "smoke", but it can be separated from Qt 06:39:56 Ralith: Smoke provides you with a "database" of C++ objects that you can query at runtime 06:40:22 thus bypassing issues like mangling, vtable layout, etc. 06:40:41 and at least for Qt, it supports subclassing 06:40:43 drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 06:40:56 I have no idea, but it probably works for other stuff 06:41:41 hm. 06:41:59 http://sbcl10.sbcl.org/materials/dlichteblau/smoke.pdf <--- has some info 06:45:11 -!- ehine1 [~ericyoda@rrcs-72-43-70-106.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:46:09 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.62.153] has joined #lisp 06:47:30 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:48:40 -!- derekv [~derekv@c-68-62-78-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:50:18 H4ns [57a9e203@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.169.226.3] has joined #lisp 06:53:10 wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 06:54:53 thanks 06:58:57 -!- daigo [~daigo@EM117-55-65-139.emobile.ad.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:00:24 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:01:30 rcharle2 [~rcharles@dhcp145.gradapt1.iit.edu] has joined #lisp 07:01:33 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:03:12 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:07:07 did anyone get CommonQT working reliably on windows? what CL did you use? 07:12:01 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Symbolics-XL1200-Lisp-Machine-/320784929577 07:12:03 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-44-148.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:13:13 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:17:03 -!- wolfpython [~wolf@58.212.238.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:17:47 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:18:02 msxx: should be doable, as long as you make sure everything is compiled with the same stack 07:18:15 (to keep sane ABI) 07:19:06 And I seem to recall hemlock.qt running on win32, possibly with LW 07:20:01 woah 07:20:04 wonder if that's in working condition 07:20:21 kind of want 07:20:26 shame I'm a college student in the wrong country 07:20:36 heh 07:21:26 derekv [~derekv@c-68-62-78-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:21:32 right now I'd rather take an ES47, if it was capable of running a Galaxy setup with simultaneus Unix and VMS, and run OpenGenera there :D 07:21:50 shipping XL1200 would blow my budget to kingdom come 07:23:18 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-235.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:24:37 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:25:23 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 07:25:28 dmitrymatveev [~user@89.28.195.227] has joined #lisp 07:26:39 nostoi [~nostoi@29.Red-83-33-70.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:30:19 ...otoh, isn't there a guy in UK selling Symbolics parts? 07:31:03 wolfpython [~wolf@180.109.57.55] has joined #lisp 07:33:35 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-33-156-49.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:38:01 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@84-74-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:43:18 -!- H4ns [57a9e203@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.169.226.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:43:34 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:45:20 -!- wolfpython [~wolf@180.109.57.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:45:42 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 07:46:10 msxx: specific example how ABI might bite you with CommonQT on Windows: having commonqt or smoke compiled with mingw, and Qt compiled with MSVC :) 07:46:36 lemoinem [~swoog@84-74-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 07:47:01 frito [~androirc@cpc12-sotn9-2-0-cust535.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:49:31 -!- frito [~androirc@cpc12-sotn9-2-0-cust535.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 07:51:23 frito [~androirc@cpc12-sotn9-2-0-cust535.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:52:52 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@29.Red-83-33-70.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 07:53:29 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 07:54:23 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:55:47 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 07:57:49 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:59:53 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-164-230.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:03:12 -!- ecraven [~nex@www.nexoid.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:04:53 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-thxffthqaouuuqty] has joined #lisp 08:07:35 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:09:57 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has quit [Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)] 08:10:17 drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:10:39 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 08:10:56 ecraven [~nex@www.nexoid.at] has joined #lisp 08:12:17 mishoo [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has joined #lisp 08:13:50 -!- xshoppyx [~xshoppyx@66-169-234-166.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: xshoppyx] 08:15:23 -!- ecraven [~nex@www.nexoid.at] has quit [Client Quit] 08:16:22 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:16:47 ecraven [~nex@www.nexoid.at] has joined #lisp 08:17:54 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 08:18:44 benkard [~benkard@mnch-4d04e670.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:20:31 -!- frito [~androirc@cpc12-sotn9-2-0-cust535.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:23:43 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:26:08 If I were to want to compile a stand-alone program in LISP, how would I define the entry point? 08:27:02 Would It just be a function call outside of a control structure? 08:27:45 jack_rabbit: in sbcl, save-lisp-and-die has :toplevel key argumement 08:27:57 "The function to run when the created core file is resumed." 08:28:17 jack_rabbit: in ECL you explicitly give the first form to execute when the binary is run 08:28:46 Awesome, thanks. 08:28:57 the same was for ccl, afaik 08:29:16 jack_rabbit: take a look on http://www.cliki.net/cl-launch too 08:29:25 Also, is there an easy way to drop to REPL? Or do I have to write my own REPL loop? 08:29:58 no, in sbcl and ecl the REPL is just a function you can call 08:30:06 but it might be better to just get swank included 08:30:17 backdoor :) 08:30:33 what is swank? 08:30:43 the lisp side of slime 08:30:55 jack_rabbit: what editor do you use? 08:31:03 emacs & slime 08:31:20 AHH! yes. I have seen swank called within slime 08:31:44 It's the "server" it uses to communicate with my SBCL, right? 08:31:51 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 08:32:33 yes 08:32:51 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 08:32:52 How would including SWANK help me out? 08:33:24 Wouldn't that require a CL implementation on the hosting machine? 08:33:28 then you've got a REPL over the network 08:33:28 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@210.Red-88-6-232.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:33:34 jack_rabbit: it would be part of your binary 08:33:36 no, just emacs+slime or vim+slimv 08:34:16 benny [~benny@i577A7DEC.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:34:28 Ahhh. Because the CL implementation is on whatever machine is running the emacs + slime 08:34:45 jack_rabbit: no, the necessary parts are bundled by default with your binary 08:35:28 alright, that makes sense. 08:35:28 only few CL implementations out there have tree shakers (there's LW, and I think ACL has one too... and thats all of usable tree shakers?) 08:36:12 p_l: there's been a script for SBCL, but that's a few years old ... might not work anymore 08:36:13 so you get a copy of the whole implementation runtime (including compiler), available to you all the time. Which is an awesome thing most of the time (except when making small executables for network delivery...) 08:36:21 flip214: it doesn't anymore 08:36:28 could be resurrected, though 08:36:43 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.90.1] 08:37:53 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 08:38:43 that's a question; can SWANK be easily ran through ssl? 08:38:53 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:39:08 Ralith: how about an ssh tunnel? 08:39:20 Ralith: you could modify it. But I'd go with SSH or stunnel 08:39:20 that should "just work" 08:39:42 guess so 08:39:49 -!- lnostdal [~Lars@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:39:57 *Ralith* is wondering about use in production applications 08:40:13 lnostdal [~Lars@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 08:40:41 Ralith: there've been a few posts about "how easy ruby is to patch in the live environment" (with some details I'd rather not remember ;) 08:40:43 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-56-76.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:40:43 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-56-76.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Changing host] 08:40:43 insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 08:41:02 flip214: ... 08:41:06 *p_l* shudders 08:41:13 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 08:41:25 *Ralith* grumble grumble greenspunning grumble 08:41:31 so I guess the same is true for lisp, too -- perhaps the people involved think "that's nothing special, why should I blog about that? just recompiling the function while being live..." 08:42:10 Ralith: most of "live" updates I had seen in Ruby were based on some mechanism noticing that a file was changed, and so reloading it before hitting that code block... 08:42:22 o.O 08:42:23 ehu [~ehuels@109.32.192.111] has joined #lisp 08:42:28 Ralith: you are wondering about the use of a repl in a production environment? try http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/lather-rinse-repeat-a-tour-of-the-repl.html last paragraphs... 08:42:57 eMBee: no, I was wondering about security concerns pertaining to building SLIME into a binary for deployment in production. 08:43:04 I'm quite familiar with PCL. 08:43:16 er 08:43:17 SWANK 08:43:22 not SLIME. 08:43:30 hmmm, don't find it anymore ... perhaps that was with python? 08:43:56 Ralith: usually if someone comes into position of accessing swank, you're hosed anyway no matter the language 08:44:15 well, that is if you secured it properly 08:44:16 p_l: right, which is why I was curious if swank had native support for preventing that from happening. 08:44:20 ah, right 08:44:22 <|3b|> swank only listens for local connections by default as far as i know 08:44:39 and if someone is on the same local machine you've got a problem anyway ... 08:44:40 that makes sense 08:44:51 flip214: eh, depends on context 08:45:00 shared hosting, for example. 08:45:02 eMBee: I just read that earlier today. 08:45:06 not everything needs dedicated hardware 08:45:06 it is a problem on multiuser machines 08:45:14 Ralith: for production system where you want to take extra precautions I'd recommend using apropriate filtering + MAC system 08:45:15 should need, rather 08:45:22 p_l: what if I don't have root? 08:45:39 I guess that's "patch in cl+ssl" time 08:45:40 Ralith: what would you need root for? 08:45:41 Ralith: patch swank to use unix domain sockets 08:45:47 that works too 08:45:58 flip214: configuring the system to suit my security needs 08:46:12 H4ns [5ddb98cc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.219.152.204] has joined #lisp 08:46:15 well, on shared hosting you're hosted ;) you just have to hope for the best 08:46:17 or funnier - patch swank to use ironclad and embed key into binary 08:46:33 then write your own proxy to connect slime to 08:46:36 no reason to embed unless I'm shipping a bare binary around anyway, but yeah 08:46:51 how about if the lisp is running hunchentoot anyway, on accessing some special URL the socket is passed to swank? 08:46:53 plenty of options 08:47:11 flip214: that sounds hacky and yet deliciously clever 08:47:18 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-44-42.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:47:39 completely inappropriate for my use-case, but an entertaining idea nonetheless 08:47:46 oudeis [~oudeis@59.37.63.109] has joined #lisp 08:47:55 Ralith: has the nice advantage that no additional port is visible ;) 08:48:04 flip214: not a problem with a unix domain socket 08:48:20 and in emacs it should be sufficient to evaluate a specially crafted block of code ;) 08:48:35 Ralith: oh yes, root will still see that there's some additional interface available 08:48:44 :P 08:48:45 having _only_ the http port raises less questions 08:48:54 I wonder if there's an elisp ssl impl 08:50:54 well, if you use stunnel for https export swank would use the same encryption 08:51:12 yeah, stunnel would be easier 08:53:20 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.212.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:55:15 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 08:56:52 Davidbrcz__ [~david@ANantes-151-1-48-203.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:57:24 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-4d04e670.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: benkard] 08:59:39 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:59:54 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 08:59:59 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 09:03:27 tsuru```` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-25-15.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 09:03:31 anyone here used Montezuma before ? 09:04:08 -!- tsuru``` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-250-214.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:04:26 -!- msxx [~msxx@76.73.16.26] has left #lisp 09:04:33 -!- schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:06:09 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.206.250] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 09:06:39 schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 09:16:34 -!- schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:18:07 hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:21:27 -!- jack_rabbit [~jackrabbi@c-67-175-254-108.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:23:19 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has quit [Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)] 09:23:20 schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 09:26:04 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.206.250] has joined #lisp 09:27:52 -!- nilboog [~null@178-36-230-145.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:37:24 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:38:00 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-164-230.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:39:31 mishoo [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has joined #lisp 09:39:41 -!- Davidbrcz__ [~david@ANantes-151-1-48-203.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:44:26 akovalenko: thanks for the windows fix, i've merged your commit to v1.2 09:48:17 -!- armence [~armence@unaffiliated/armence] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:48:24 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-195-170.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:48:31 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:49:57 armence [~armence@unaffiliated/armence] has joined #lisp 09:52:47 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 09:56:24 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@186.12.206.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:56:27 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.90.1] 10:01:29 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-144-108.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:02:24 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:02:28 -!- pers [~user@96-25-162-104.gar.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:04:12 -!- gienah [~mwright@ppp121-44-88-164.lns20.syd6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:09:14 nanoc [~conanhome@186.12.70.120] has joined #lisp 10:10:55 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 10:17:32 killerboy [~mateusz@wifi-out.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 10:19:35 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 10:22:59 akovalen` [~anton@95.73.51.146] has joined #lisp 10:23:25 -!- akovalen` is now known as akovalenko` 10:24:24 -!- akovalenko [~anton@95.73.221.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:24:31 todun [~todun@seasnet-58-02.seas.upenn.edu] has joined #lisp 10:24:37 juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 10:24:39 -!- akovalenko` is now known as akovalenko 10:27:13 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:28:12 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:28:12 -!- todun [~todun@seasnet-58-02.seas.upenn.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 10:28:43 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:29:24 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 10:32:28 drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:35:27 hagish [~hagish@p57A46886.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:36:51 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:45:20 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:53:18 -!- waveman [~tim@124.170.43.134] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:58:44 H4ns_ [5ddb98cc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.219.152.204] has joined #lisp 10:58:52 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@210.Red-88-6-232.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 10:58:57 -!- H4ns [5ddb98cc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.219.152.204] has quit [Disconnected by services] 10:59:00 -!- H4ns_ is now known as H4ns 10:59:13 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@210.Red-88-6-232.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:00:43 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 11:01:33 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:03:27 superflit [~superflit@71-33-156-49.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 11:11:18 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:11:55 -!- nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d1a3c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:14:52 hi 11:14:59 yay. I'm back 11:17:06 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.79] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 11:17:09 todun [~todun@seasnet-58-02.seas.upenn.edu] has joined #lisp 11:18:06 -!- dmitrymatveev [~user@89.28.195.227] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:18:23 -!- H4ns [5ddb98cc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.219.152.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:18:32 dmitrymatveev [~user@89.28.195.227] has joined #lisp 11:19:05 is there cl-smoke in quicklisp? 11:19:53 (ql:system-apropos "smoke") says there isn't 11:20:02 akovalenko: nil 11:20:05 Posterdati: cl-smoke was afaik mostly dropped 11:20:17 p_l: is it commonqt then? 11:20:18 Posterdati: http://tobias.rautenkranz.ch/pipermail/cl-smoke_tobias.rautenkranz.ch/2011-March/000034.html 11:20:29 Posterdati: CommonQT is your best bet 11:20:30 flip214: hi! 11:20:45 ah 11:21:24 Posterdati: sys 60684 11:21:35 flip214: what is it? 11:21:37 (http://www.ffd2.com/fridge/docs/c64-diss.html 0xed0c) 11:21:58 READY. 11:23:04 ehh 11:23:17 using some inferior OS, are we? 11:23:24 flip214: listen on serial bus? 11:23:56 Posterdati: correct 11:26:28 p_l: nearly _no_ OS, that's the whole point ... see also http://prog21.dadgum.com/116.html 11:26:30 I need QABrastractVideoSurface class, but there's no such class in commonqt and I've no idea how to implement that :( 11:26:52 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:28:53 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B11A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:28:58 arborist [~arborist@e182026131.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:32:12 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:32:48 Posterdati: write small C++ lib implementing it, generate a binding for it with smokegen, load it into CommonQT with (qt:ensure-smoke) 11:33:26 p_l: :) 11:33:29 flip214: I still prefer Atari OS, which provided a nice exokernel that supported many weird things while still letting you run without any extras 11:33:44 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:33:55 p_l: QAbstractVideoSurface is a Qt class 11:34:06 p_l: it is already in Qt 11:34:10 Posterdati: yes, but it's "abstract" 11:34:17 meaning, it's useless 11:34:23 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 11:34:29 it serves as "interface" 11:34:57 p_l: ok, so could I port the c++ program without use it? 11:35:24 so, write a very simple class that implements all the methods as virtual (where possible), compile it as a shared lib, build a smoke binding for it, and you have a concrete class to use 11:36:13 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 11:36:17 Posterdati: I don't remember the details, but I wouldn't be surprised if C++ doesn't allow instantiation of non-concrete classes. And without that, you won't be able to subclass it from Smoke 11:38:31 seems tricky 11:38:33 but ok 11:40:51 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:42:26 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 11:42:57 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:43:03 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has quit [Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)] 11:43:46 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:47:41 mishoo [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has joined #lisp 11:47:51 p_l: thanks 11:50:26 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:50:56 mishoo [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has joined #lisp 11:51:43 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 11:53:15 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:54:03 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 11:56:17 -!- tsuru```` is now known as tsuru 11:57:43 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:58:31 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 11:59:48 Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:48 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:03:01 -!- hagish [~hagish@p57A46886.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:04:36 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:04:40 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 12:04:47 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 12:05:20 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:07:42 -!- whoops [u549@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qzoykgbwcuuhsliu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:07:58 Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:10:13 -!- Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:15:34 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-129-23.w90-26.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:16:41 lonstein_ [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:25 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.206.250] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 12:19:36 how do I proclaim the right way? 12:19:55 -!- juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:20:05 e.g. whats the best way to make a function inline, or assert types etc 12:20:10 is there a good guide on that 12:20:13 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.206.250] has joined #lisp 12:20:13 ? 12:20:19 (declaim (inline my-function)) 12:20:29 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.206.250] has quit [Client Quit] 12:20:57 use declaim at top-level, declare locally. 12:21:36 but what happens when the declaim comes after the defun? 12:21:48 "assert types": doing this with declarations is not portable; declarations are promises _to_ the compiler, not vice versa. 12:21:58 zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:22:09 (declaim (inline ...)) should come _before_ defun 12:22:23 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:22:23 -!- kloeri [~kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:22:23 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:22:23 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-129-23.w90-26.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:22:23 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:22:23 -!- codesinverse [~Jaybles@205.185.117.18] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:22:23 -!- derrida [~derrida-f@unaffiliated/deleuze] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:22:25 -!- sbryant [~freenode@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:22:25 -!- MasseR [~masse@dyn68-323.yok.fi] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:22:25 -!- lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:22:25 why would I declaim globally ever? 12:22:55 well, when you define a _global_ function or a _global_ variable, that's what you normally do 12:23:03 <|3b|> it has to be in effect when the function is compiled to tell the compiler to store the information to compile it inline later 12:23:25 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 12:23:27 Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #lisp 12:23:40 el-maxo: always declaim before defun. I suspect you might be able to do some declamations *after* variable definition, but it might be hairy 12:23:53 <|3b|> if you don't want it inlined by default, you can declaim it notinline again after defining it 12:24:14 whoops [u549@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-frlregqmysierdqx] has joined #lisp 12:25:10 for portable type checking, there is check-type macro. 12:26:01 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@203.110.240.205] has joined #lisp 12:26:01 kloeri [~kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has joined #lisp 12:26:01 codesinverse [~Jaybles@205.185.117.18] has joined #lisp 12:26:01 derrida [~derrida-f@unaffiliated/deleuze] has joined #lisp 12:26:01 sbryant [~freenode@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has joined #lisp 12:26:01 MasseR [~masse@dyn68-323.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 12:26:19 p_l: ISTR I saw some (defclass) macroexpansion in SBCL that had the inline later? 12:26:38 oh I get it 12:26:44 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:27:02 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:27:12 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@203.110.240.205] has quit [Changing host] 12:27:12 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 12:27:23 declare is for one time function calls and declaim says that a function should always be inlined 12:27:59 flip214: cl:defclass expansion can be anything supported by the implementation, and the implementor can choose to make late (declaim inline) sensible. We can't rely on it portable, though. 12:28:26 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 12:28:27 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:28:35 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 12:28:54 akovalenko: ok, thanks 12:29:33 flip214: as long as the conforming code runs according to spec, the implementation can have defclass be expanded to instructions for trained pigeons. 12:30:05 p_l: european or african pigeons? ;) 12:30:13 flip214: that was for swallows 12:30:23 for pigeons you need more local variations 12:30:29 same for seagulls 12:31:41 Dutch Seagull, or at least Amsterdam Seagull, is a small, quiet, and nice. Aberdonian Seagulls had guest starred in Hitchock's Birds. 12:31:53 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:31:59 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 12:32:13 those are important implementation differences! 12:32:29 ..see rfc1149 for more details. 12:33:09 juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 12:34:30 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-242-218.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 12:34:32 akovalenko: there's an unreleased addendum that adds CSMA-CD broadcast mesh network for local area transport over with aberdonian seagulls 12:34:41 -over 12:36:29 Harag [~phil@41.56.24.171] has joined #lisp 12:37:13 coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:37:18 p_l: much more interesting is the signetics 25120 -- http://www.national.com/rap/files/datasheet.pdf 12:39:04 heh 12:39:55 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 12:40:19 ... also, I really should have taken my medication, I nearly suggested to Posterdati to contact me tommorrow, for a £50/hr CommonQT consulting >_< 12:41:11 well? sounds perfectly normal ... 12:42:08 p_l: are harmful working conditions regulated where you're living? you might not be permitted to charge so little! 12:42:50 akovalenko: unfortunately, my dorm mates are normal people, so I can't claim hazardous pay due to wild frat animals 12:42:53 akovalenko: that's british pounds, not euro or lira 12:43:20 flip214: but that's Posterdati, not 12:43:24 p_l: 50£ ? 12:43:35 Posterdati: 50 GBP/hour 12:43:59 aka "12 hours for a new phone" 12:44:04 1/72 GBP*Hz 12:44:15 akovalenko: lol 12:44:30 MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-28-68.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 12:44:40 p_l: I could pai 50 * 10^-3 /h 12:44:55 so there seems to be some fine-print there, too ... this is the unit used in postscript, 1/72 inch 12:45:44 Posterdati: only if I'm NTL spaceship while the clock is stationary 12:45:46 hi. is there an easy way to ignore #<...> when reading a file using read (not read-line/char)? 12:46:09 s/NTL/on near-lightspeed/ 12:46:55 trebor_dki: you may add a dispatch read macro for #< to your (private) readtable, which should return (values) ; i.e. zero values 12:47:49 akovalenko: thank you, will look this up in the spec. 12:47:50 flip214: that signetics product rocks! 12:47:55 ..what constantly bothers me in the notion of multiple values is that we call zero values "multiple".. 12:48:11 akovalenko: isn't #< really not recommended thing to override? 12:48:30 p_l: in the standard or default readtable, sure 12:48:50 p_l: as of your special-purpose readable.. people read XML this way, too 12:48:52 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:48:56 right 12:49:14 `< is saner for XML syntax, though 12:49:24 -!- am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:49:51 p_l: well, I mean that "you do anything you what _and_ you can" if the readtable is not for reading lisp forms. 12:51:25 dlowe [~dlowe@50-77-31-237-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 12:51:36 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-44-42.iburst.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:51:42 jesse [~jesse@foresight/developer/jesse] has joined #lisp 12:52:23 ... damn, the more coherent I am, the more I'm willing to do such crazy consulting... >_> 12:53:46 brb 12:55:27 p_l: may I pay you with a bunch of signetics 25120 chips? 12:56:13 -!- todun [~todun@seasnet-58-02.seas.upenn.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:58:19 Posterdati: can I sell you some relabeled signetics 25120? I've got an extended version, 40 dip 12:58:56 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:00:03 flip214: no qftp 128? 13:01:00 sorry, no 13:01:10 dip 43? 13:01:24 I can offer dip 39, if you like... 13:01:41 ok 13:02:15 Krystof [~user@158.223.59.95] has joined #lisp 13:02:20 ROM vs WOM 13:03:04 well, you can write everything you like - even multiple times. and, much better than flash, it never needs to do wear levelling! 13:03:18 flip214: I've got a bunch of one pin schottky diode, are you interested? 13:07:35 Are these the old ones for radio receivers? 13:07:47 no 13:08:37 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:09:05 well, then not .... I like to receive radio transmissions with a single transistor, one resistor, one capacitor and headphones 13:09:28 ok good luck 13:16:20 flip214: same with me and the QAbstractVideoSurface stuff 13:19:06 -!- nikodemus` [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:23:17 flip214: I see a lack of diode and too many capacitors and transistors :P 13:23:52 p_l: I don't see too many capacitors :-/ 13:24:41 p_l: a transistor has a fine diode ... the capacitor is only to prohibit direct current in the headphone 13:24:54 flip214: ah 13:24:56 and a single transistor is sufficient if you're near enough 13:25:08 been there, done that ... 13:25:09 the desio 13:25:36 -!- arborist [~arborist@e182026131.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:25:41 *design i learnt as a wee lad had only resistors and diodes 13:27:10 millerti [~millerti@76-232-38-36.lightspeed.clmboh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:33 p_l: http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_9/6.html or http://www.ohio.edu/people/postr/bapix/TranMidg.htm for inspirations 13:27:46 p_l For me it was LC + diode, and no one mentioned inductors yet.. 13:27:51 it's much easier for the 100k-1MHz band, of course 13:28:34 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:28:43 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.27.236] has joined #lisp 13:29:18 -!- millerti [~millerti@76-232-38-36.lightspeed.clmboh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:29:46 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.27.236] has quit [Client Quit] 13:31:45 nice stuff 13:32:55 the book I learnt from was a rather legendary thing in Poland, a generic "DIY" book foor kids/teens, its author also having a TV program back when it was published 13:33:01 (communist times) 13:37:11 were you allowed to do things yourself in those days? 13:38:09 Neronus: DIY in many areas was doing better back then 13:38:16 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.48.219] has joined #lisp 13:38:24 communist poland: maker's paradise! 13:38:57 Xach: I guess that's the reason most people who are able to do low-level phone hacking are polish... 13:39:20 Xach: I think it was more a case of lack of "ready made" stuf causing increased tinkering, hacking etc. 13:40:05 Xach: not unlike the difference of putting together some byzantine and bizarre Java libs, and hacking the same solution in CL, Haskell or Erlang 13:40:13 Traditionally, polish programmers were always the ones that were able to write the most compact and efficient code (ostensibly because they had to make do with lesser hardware) 13:41:14 loke: I don't think that holds anymore, though I have to say that I am kind of obsessed with thinking about performance instead of leaving it to Moore's law 13:41:39 p_l: that's why I used the word "were" 13:41:56 p_l: I'm mostly referring to my experiences on the demoscene back in the 90's 13:42:10 ahh 13:42:46 Some demo came out on the Atari ST, and the polish people decided to go and port it to ZX Spectrum... 13:42:50 things like that 13:43:10 The Russians were the same, just more vodka. 13:43:39 aalib was from Poland, too, IIRC 13:43:55 flip214: yeah. Takes some polish guys to actually go and write something like that :-) 13:44:14 well, Russia is a little colder, so more vodka, less beer 13:44:18 People had been joking about it for long, but those guys were the first to actually go and do it. 13:44:19 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:45:03 p_l: I have less experience with the Russians in this respect. They were not generally part of the European demoscene in the same way as the polish. 13:45:15 well, we got OT quite far, I think :D 13:45:25 OT? 13:45:33 Off-Topic 13:45:36 ah 13:45:45 though at least still nominally about programming 13:46:24 -!- lnostdal [~Lars@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:46:37 H4ns [55b38eb7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.179.142.183] has joined #lisp 13:47:00 akovalenko: regarding that £50 being cheap... yeah, but amortized £10/h (after adding unbillable time) is still better than what I'd get in retail ;) 13:47:48 lnostdal [~Lars@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 13:48:03 nicdev_ [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:03 OK... How about this one then... Speaking of Erlang, I was doing some reading about Haskell, and I got the feeling that I just don't like that language. At all. It felt incredibly obnoxious. Like a research project that's never completed. Have any of you experience with it to be able to say whether I'm wrong or not? 13:49:01 -!- lnostdal [~Lars@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 13:49:52 lnostdal [~Lars@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 13:49:56 loke: it's done deliberately. Some of that, at least. The rest is th purely theoretical language research that was involved as well 13:50:07 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:50:18 todun [~todun@SEAS296.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has joined #lisp 13:50:21 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:50:56 the deliberate part is to scare off people who would like a stable language (and thus possibly slow down the way haskll evolves) 13:51:28 loke: _some_ things are pretty neat ... eg. the typical examples with factorial, the functionality (so memoization can be done by default), etc 13:51:57 but I've got some 'bad' feeling about it, too ... cannot explain it better, though 13:52:56 there should be some CL library for the memoization and a bit nicer syntax, then haskell would be dead in a week ;) 13:52:56 p_l: Yeah. I can certainly see how that part is interesting. But as a practical language? After I started reading about some of the certifiably insane hoops people manage to squeeze themselves through just to do something utterly trivial makes me feel like the people who like Haskell don't actually want to write a program. They wan't to study the mathematical representation of functional interactions. It's like those people don't really need the 13:52:57 Haskell compiler for what they do. Or at least, they would only use them as a prover for their ventures into type theory? 13:53:05 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 13:53:17 -!- Krystof [~user@158.223.59.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:53:18 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.107.202] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:53:53 well, haskells biggest "problem" = challenge is IO, which dominates 90% of the programmer's time 13:53:56 gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.107.202] has joined #lisp 13:54:18 flip214: of course, because it's inherently stateful 13:55:08 loke: that's the external view. I had seen those weird tricks used, for example, to make compile-time, inlined read-only database 13:55:20 That's what I meant when I said the Haskell people don't really seem to want to write actual programs. Mainly because such programs introduce state which of course is something they claim they can live without. 13:55:31 loke: not really 13:55:48 I might have had a different selection of people I contacted, though 13:56:34 p_l: I've just been reading tutorials and browsed forums 13:56:51 a friend of mine used Haskell, with its crazy math stuff, to quickly write a predictable DHCP proxy for example. Or to write a secure and well-specced distributed filesystem 13:57:04 loke: I think some of the tutorials are mainly responsible for that 13:57:47 also, some of the nifty stuff required grokking the math concepts behind them, and sometimes putting the whole thing upside-down and turning it upside down in 11 dimensions 13:57:58 Recall "Cells"? 13:58:24 p_l: nope. Haven't heard of them 13:59:25 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-44-42.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:59:44 loke: I'm not in shape to explain it completely, so I'd suggest finding Kenny Tilton's blog and reading his essays (because Cells as a library definitely falls short in actual experience...). 14:00:17 Then consider the fact that it's a current research hot topic in Haskell 14:00:19 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.27.236] has joined #lisp 14:00:32 (also, google "reactive programming" and "dataflow programming" 14:00:34 ) 14:00:57 cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.212.7] has joined #lisp 14:01:27 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-26.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:02:22 brb 14:03:06 KT's posts on cells: http://smuglispweeny.blogspot.com/search/label/Cells 14:05:08 -!- galdor [galdor@def92-10-88-162-192-107.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:05:21 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.27] has joined #lisp 14:05:23 galdor [galdor@def92-10-88-162-192-107.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:25 akovalenko: isn't that much like defining a function for a subclass? 14:07:40 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-26.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:03 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:10:23 -!- lnostdal [~Lars@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:10:47 Cloud__ [~cbolano@187.193.206.188] has joined #lisp 14:11:11 lnostdal [~Lars@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 14:12:21 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.212.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:13:12 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@wifi-out.sdu.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:15:32 lisper-weasel [~quassel@host133-226-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:19:05 hagish [~hagish@p5091C5B9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:38 nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:45 G'morning all. 14:20:00 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@2620:0:2820:b03:214:22ff:fe45:5204] has quit [Quit: Some days you're the pigeon, some days the statue...] 14:20:27 nyef: it's 15:20 here 14:20:42 Posterdati: It's always morning somewhere. 14:20:50 maybe 14:21:06 -!- todun [~todun@SEAS296.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has quit [Quit: :s] 14:21:17 (Alternately, "15:20? That's late enough in the day to have a drink. I'll be at the bar!") 14:21:29 :) 14:21:46 nyef: help me please, I add .swank.lisp 14:21:50 Posterdati: http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html 14:22:08 nyef: (swank::swank-require 'swank-listener-hooks) 14:22:27 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@gray-01.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 14:22:28 nyef: but I've got error during emacs/slime session 14:22:33 *p_l* feels a CommonQT question coming 14:22:46 ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:22:54 df_aldur: ok 14:23:30 Posterdati: a C++ abstract class cannot be instanciated. Hence its lack in commonqt (AFAIK). You would have to write the concrete subclass in C++, and call it from Lisp. 14:23:52 pjb: hi! 14:23:52 Posterdati: I'm not much of a slime hacker, sorry. 14:24:10 pjb: something I stated I think... twice so far -_-; 14:24:37 arborist [~arborist@e182027172.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:25:28 Also, I doubt CLOS multiple inheritance can be converted into C++ multiple inheritance: from C++, it must look like two C++ instances. (the reason is because it would require C++ compiler internals knowledge) so you have to write your C++ classes using mixins in C++. 14:25:34 p_l: have you used/programmed with Cells before? 14:26:09 pjb: Could always call the C++ compiler from DEFCLASS. :-P 14:26:09 pjb: ok, I'll use another way 14:26:22 felideon: It was my final push towards CL, but when I got my hands on the code I couldn't get it to compile (Kenny cares only about ACL) 14:26:40 p_l: it's in quicklisp, now. 14:26:45 Xach: *now* 14:26:46 p_l: i had to hassle him 14:26:48 Posterdati: compare the situation with Objective-C, where an API to othe internals of Objective-C is provided. C++ doesn't provide an API to its internals, each compiler has its own way. 14:26:54 p_l: fyi, (ql:quickload :cells) works with sbcl. 14:27:43 Xach: I'm pretty sure that without Ramarren(sp?) your hassling might not have been enough (he kept a repo with fixes that actually compiled *and* ran, both cells and cells-gtk) 14:28:06 Blkt [~user@82.84.150.239] has joined #lisp 14:28:41 pjb: it's enough not worth the effort just to capture an usb cam 14:29:13 Posterdati: why not use cl-v4l2 and blit the image to canvas? 14:29:17 Isn't there in Qt any concrete subclass of QAbstractVideoSurface ? 14:29:34 I guess I've missed what's special about cells, it sounds like... functions to me 14:29:35 -!- Blkt [~user@82.84.150.239] has quit [Client Quit] 14:29:41 Blkt [~user@82.84.150.239] has joined #lisp 14:29:42 p_l: that's I'd liker to achieve 14:29:46 df_aldur: yes, you have. 14:29:57 p_l: v4l2 -> qt painter? 14:29:58 *akovalenko* found cells very interesting, but has yet to decide between using and reinventing them. Kenny's code.. uhm. 14:30:04 -!- Blkt [~user@82.84.150.239] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:30:39 akovalenko: I think hu.dwim has a grossly simplified reactive programming system that doesn't try to do full reactivity like Cells 14:30:39 it's me... Just tryin' quassel 14:30:56 Posterdati: yes 14:31:01 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@50-77-31-237-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 14:31:11 akovalenko: what's the difference between the cells thing and defining an anonymous sub-class with the specified read method? 14:31:12 Posterdati: or v4l2 -> GL surface 14:31:20 dlowe_lt [dlowe@nat/google/x-ehwrymztdzkpxhwq] has joined #lisp 14:31:22 p_l: ok 14:31:35 p_l: I'd like to display that in a qt window 14:31:40 dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 14:31:45 flip214: when you change a parameter, Cells will fire apropriate changes for all dependants 14:31:48 flip214: subclass, method and macrology is nothing more than the sugar, dependency tracking is more interesting 14:32:24 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:32:25 so what is the difference between a cell and a function that calculates the value based on its dependencies on demand? that the cell can be calculated up-front whenever the dependencies change? 14:32:33 ah, so that isn't simply a read method, but defines caching in the local instance ... ok, got it 14:32:53 df_aldur: dependencies can go both ways 14:32:57 df_aldur: IIUC the cell has a "cached" value, which just gets updated as needed 14:33:04 quackv2 [~quack@vps-1058467-4367.manage.myhosting.com] has joined #lisp 14:33:11 a function would be run every time 14:33:16 df_aldur: cell can be calculated _and_ update a record in database. Cyclic dependencies won't blow up. etc,etc. 14:33:49 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:34:18 it's not about read methods, it's about having "events" that cascade through your system and update it. Think of it like a system of equations with multiple unknowns, where you tweak parameters and have the solver update all the rest for you 14:34:31 todun [~todun@SEAS296.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has joined #lisp 14:35:17 Posterdati: you can display a GL surface in Qt window 14:35:34 akovalenko: actually Cells doesn't support cyclic dependencies, iiuc. 14:35:36 good 14:35:43 p_l: good 14:35:51 so for example you could have a side effect (such as updating what's displayed on screen) as soon as a cell changes due to a dependency? 14:36:38 df_aldur: it's actually one of the examples Kenny provided, taken from the software where he used Cells in anger (iirc for the first time) 14:36:58 cesarbp [~cbolano@189.227.222.108] has joined #lisp 14:37:45 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 14:38:16 So cells is really nothing more than a callback list attached to each slot in an instance? 14:38:54 -!- Cloud__ [~cbolano@187.193.206.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:40:13 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:41:02 I'd say it's more complex, though some of the implementation behind that is probably like what you described 14:41:10 also, Cell's code is... not nice 14:41:23 -!- chrnybo [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:41:47 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-194-68.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:42:01 chrnybo [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 14:42:45 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-194-68.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:43:07 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:43:28 p_l: the thing is, as I think about it, it's that I can't really envision many applications where such feature is so fundamental that a generic library for it is needed. Every time I've done it, it's been for very specific reasons, and in all those cases just implementing SLOT-VALUE-USING-CLASS is sufficient. I can't really think of a case where multi-stage propagation would be needed. Perhaps it's just me that is narrow-minded. 14:44:09 loke: It's probably because proper use of reactive/dataflow programming means a completely different application structure 14:45:25 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has joined #lisp 14:45:28 So cells is useful if you have a totally screwed up application and you don't mind screwing it up a bit more? 14:45:44 lol 14:46:10 loke: no. It's a different paradigm of programming... of which Cells is a rather screwed-up implementation 14:46:27 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 14:46:40 loke: Haskell people are putting serious research into reactive programming, too 14:46:40 ... Hunh. Maybe I should add Cells to my list of things to look into someday. 14:47:11 hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 14:47:14 mishoo [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has joined #lisp 14:47:32 Mmm... The Excel-based paradigm of programming. I work in the financie industry. I'm sadly quite well accustomed to the effects of Excel-driven programming and its (lack of) observability. 14:47:53 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has quit [Client Quit] 14:47:56 p_l: why do you think there havent' been any more reactive libraries built in Lisp? 14:48:40 /who loke 14:49:49 -!- dlowe_lt [dlowe@nat/google/x-ehwrymztdzkpxhwq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:49:50 felideon: 1) It's non-trivial to write 2) Unless you have one, most of the time you don't need it 3) It can go crazy 4) I'm waiting for haskellers to get somewhere without spawning Erlang/OTP amounts of threads 14:50:28 n.b. haskellers also tried to get it observable 14:51:02 it just makes more sense in a pure langauge as it allows to go past some of it's limitations 14:51:48 freiksenet: I think the motivation is different - it's the idea of just specifying relationships between elements, just like in a system of equations 14:51:54 and it plays well with type system 14:54:18 eulyix [~charles@nas21-87.york.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:54:37 I don't remember if KR can deal with circular dependencies, but you could have a look at it, it's a different implementation. (And KR is now distributed separately from Garnet). 14:55:26 yeah I'd be interesting in 14:55:33 comparing its implementation 14:55:37 what would the full name of the KR library be? KR stands for Knowledge Representation (and Reasoning) where I com from. 14:55:48 It's that. Just KR. 14:56:11 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-thxffthqaouuuqty] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:56:25 no cliki pages :( 14:56:47 p_l: yeah, I just meant it seems more interesting to have this in haskell, rather than in Lisp 14:57:12 http://www.cliki.net/KR 14:57:18 Seems there's another one named COSI. 14:57:56 wow, this is from Garnet 14:57:58 odd, a search didn't bring anything up 14:58:13 we had one application based on Garnet at my last job 15:00:32 it interfaced with keyboard on a veyr low level, so it was practically impossible to port it to use unicode/non-ascii 15:01:03 we hacked it to use some other 7-bit encoding for characters, but never managed to make it work properly with inpit 15:01:30 hmm, from that Cliki page I also noticed dto's CLON 15:01:31 -!- brandelune_ [~suzume@pl316.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: brandelune_] 15:02:12 he seems to have removed it from github though. 15:02:30 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@0132300253.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 15:05:20 I think that reactive programming is basically a bad idea, as no implementation of the idea is good enough that you'd never want to look at how it works. it's about automating state changes, but the very idea of statefullness rejects opacity 15:06:09 sea4ever [~sea4ever@unaffiliated/sea4ever] has joined #lisp 15:06:23 and any statement where the words "Haskell" and "understandable" are both present is laughable 15:06:30 but that may be just me 15:06:47 Hi all! Does anyone know where I can find a spec for ANSI Common Lisp? 15:07:13 sea4ever: Google "CLHS" 15:07:14 sea4ever: http://l1sp.org/cl 15:07:20 Cool, thanks 15:07:49 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:07:57 I implemented a lisp interpreter for the PSP over the last 2 months and I'm ready to make it standards-compliant now. 15:08:00 sea4ever: have a look at http://cliki.net tooo. 15:08:43 sea4ever: that is quite an interesting endeavor. 15:09:03 -!- eulyix [~charles@nas21-87.york.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:09:13 There's a lot more to it. The whole project is to make something like Emacs for the PSP, i.e. a frame + window-based environment that runs lisp code. 15:09:30 In any case, congratulation for wanting to make it compliant to Common Lisp. 15:09:41 I think it might very well be compliant already. 15:10:04 That doesn't seem like something that will happen accidentally. 15:10:07 I used some books on Lisp that I have to implement it. 15:10:32 and when I run test code versus test code on Clisp and SBCL, the output is the same. 15:10:54 I just don't have a full-fledged standard library yet, but I copy-paste chunks of the lisp code from clisp. 15:10:55 Do you handle *default-pathname-default* merging in delete-file properly? 15:11:00 sea4ever: http://common-lisp.net/project/ansi-test/ 15:11:14 Oh there's a whole test, that's cool. Thanks for pointing that out pjb. 15:11:20 Sorry, *default-pathname-defaults* 15:11:53 jsn [~jsn@c-98-225-158-149.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:11:56 I haven't implemented delete-file yet. 15:12:07 Not hard to do though, I'll get around to it later. 15:12:20 That's ok, CL accepts "subsets of Common Lisp" 15:14:15 -!- hagish [~hagish@p5091C5B9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:16:20 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181056239.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:16:31 -!- sea4ever [~sea4ever@unaffiliated/sea4ever] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:16:57 lbc [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 15:18:28 heh. does he know how big the spec is?? 15:19:55 ehu: nonetheless, it could be a nice start for a psp implementation of a subset of common lisp 15:20:41 -!- gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:21:36 ehu: at least it isn't getting any bigger 15:22:02 leo2007` [~leo@123.114.48.219] has joined #lisp 15:22:23 is it the "make joke on R7RS-large" time? 15:22:35 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:22:58 dlowe [dlowe@nat/google/x-urppmfbvavhpoikp] has joined #lisp 15:23:45 No! 15:24:14 :( 15:24:44 Amadiro [~Amadiro@1x-193-157-203-215.uio.no] has joined #lisp 15:26:00 this from the hunchentoot documentation warms my heart: (or NIL if there ain't no POST parameter with this name) 15:26:06 hagish [~hagish@p5091E65F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:22 "ain't no"? 15:27:01 The double-negative-as-emphatic-negative pattern strikes again? 15:27:08 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-72-43-20-246.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:27:37 *j_king* shudders at "ain't" 15:27:39 most languages have agreement with regards to negation 15:28:59 http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=ain%27t&searchmode=none 15:29:47 Heh. Nice! 15:30:09 "correct" meaning "high status" 15:31:00 Of course. 15:31:21 sea4ever [~sea4ever@unaffiliated/sea4ever] has joined #lisp 15:31:44 Hrm. 1706. That's got to be close to the vowel shift. 15:32:09 The network at UWI is flaky. So I passed the largest hurdles (I think) and the rest of the code is very easy stuff. 15:32:34 -!- lisper-weasel [~quassel@host133-226-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:33:35 ehu: it's not so big. For one thing, you can implement (almost) all the destructive functions as calling just the non-destructive ones. So half the job is already done. 15:35:18 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 15:35:49 Is it OK to want to print the name of a condition? 15:35:56 Yes. 15:36:07 (prin1 condition) should do that. 15:36:47 -!- sea4ever [~sea4ever@unaffiliated/sea4ever] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:36:58 pjb: well, you still have to define the destructive ones. 15:36:59 sea4ever [~sea4ever@unaffiliated/sea4ever] has joined #lisp 15:37:01 Or else, (princ (type-of condition)) ; note that (class-name (class-of condition)) is not confomring. 15:37:05 pjb: but otherwise, agreed. 15:37:23 ehu: (defun delete (&rest args) (apply 'remove args)) ; how hard is it ? 15:37:39 Okay back, so does anyone want to help work on my psp lisp interpreter? I think that I posted the link to the code up above but I might have disconnected 15:38:12 sea4ever: i didn't see a link to the code. where is it? 15:38:38 Here it is: http://sourceforge.net/p/sealisp/code/ 15:38:48 I must have disconnected, I blame the network admin here. 15:38:55 pjb: thanks. 15:39:45 A major goal of that code is to optimize it for memory usage, so a lot of weird stuff is in there for that purpose. (all symbols share the same memory, a working garbage collector, etc.) 15:39:57 since the psp has only 32MiB of RAM (mine does at least) 15:40:16 There were lisp implementations running in 48 KB. 15:40:17 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.155.218] has joined #lisp 15:40:26 plisp ran on Apple][. 15:41:08 pjb: but more importantly, what are the smaller common lisps? 15:41:10 LISP 1.5 ran on 32 Kword. 15:41:25 madnificent: good question. 15:41:51 also, wasn't eulisp similar to common lisp, but including different levels/subsets? 15:41:52 :( Mine uses exponentially more memory the further nested an expression is. 15:41:54 I'm sure we could make a very small footprint CL implementation. 15:42:03 but the garbage collector helps greatly. 15:42:03 eulisp was lisp-1. 15:43:02 pjb: i seem to be wrong indeed 15:43:14 madnificent: ECL and CLISP are the ones with the smallest memory footprints, that I've tried. 15:43:38 madnificent: they both seem to hover in the same range as python and ruby. 15:43:43 sykopomp: and last time I ran ECL with some code included in the image, i found it to be rather large as well. not sure though, just remember thinking that. 15:45:11 I used 2568B to evaluate the expression (progn (print (string-concat "The result is: " (+ 3 5 (* 1 2)) ", and we used " (second gc-status) " mem."))) 15:45:15 So that isn't too bad. 15:45:16 boei [~boei@238.Red-81-32-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:41 sea4ever: as per your request to help out: i find the idea quite nice and cool, but i have no need for anything of the likes. i wonder though, does the psp have a backing OS for the code which you run? or do you get the machine 100% available to your application? 15:45:54 You get the machine 100% available to the application. 15:46:00 So the lisp interpreter essentially acts as the OS. 15:46:13 Therefore I have psp-specific primitives that let you interface with the wireless card, etc. 15:46:24 sea4ever: this channel's topic is common lisp, so if you're implementing or targeting common lisp, it's interesting. otherwise, not as interesting. 15:46:46 I intend to implement common lisp. So I asked for the spec earlier. 15:47:38 sea4ever: For random plateform specific primitive, you may have a look at the existing portability libraries (cffi, usocket, etc). You may implement directly those API. 15:49:10 sea4ever: perhaps if it doesn't depend on the platform it could be ported to other architectures as well. i'd be interested in seeing what can be done in that case. a common lisp running on small hardware could be fun to toy with. 15:50:48 -!- sea4ever [~sea4ever@unaffiliated/sea4ever] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:52:45 -!- todun [~todun@SEAS296.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:52:58 hi 15:56:13 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 15:57:58 -!- lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp3702.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:01:41 todun [~todun@SEAS296.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has joined #lisp 16:02:23 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:03:31 -!- jsn [~jsn@c-98-225-158-149.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: jsn] 16:03:39 -!- dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:04:02 you know what would have been a great idea? 16:04:19 a screensaver that only runs in the un-covered "hole" area of your desktop 16:04:33 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:04:34 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 16:04:36 there is such a thing 16:04:48 really? linky? 16:04:51 isn't it called dynamic desktop background? 16:04:57 no I know about that 16:05:03 I can set xscreensavers to display in root window 16:05:09 so what do you mean? 16:05:41 like majority of my desktop is covered in windows, around 70% of it, and around 30% is the background showing through 16:06:01 yeah, so? 16:06:03 if I for example run one of amusing xscreensavers, like maze in the root window 16:06:14 I can't see what its drawing majroity of the time (since its covered) 16:06:22 true 16:06:27 would have been cool if it could only run in the un-covered area of the desktop 16:06:45 adjusting dynamically as windows move 16:06:51 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:07:06 hmm, should it run instances in all uncovered areas? 16:07:11 well, probably need "biggest uncovered area" 16:07:17 oh, ok 16:07:21 currenly its an L tetris piece shaped 16:07:27 ok 16:07:28 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 16:07:33 yeah, it's doeable 16:08:06 Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:11 maxm-: buy a screen 30% smaller. 16:08:25 100% of my screen is used by emacs pixels. 16:08:34 x-screensavers modules already can draw in the window id you give them, but I doubt if you create arbritrary shape window (which is possible in X), that they are smart enough to have coded for that possibility 16:08:59 screensavers are useless on LCD screens. It's a CRT-age thing. 16:09:20 Let me get this straight... You want to put a moving somethingorother into the parts of your screen that already contain no useful information, which will attract your attention away from the parts of the screen that has useful information that you presumably need to focus on? 16:09:24 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 16:09:26 *maxm-* found that with 22inch 1600x1200 screen, maximized window is just too big 16:09:39 pjb - they're good for locking the screen and hiding your desktop from prying eyes when you're away from your desk.. 16:10:00 *akovalenko* has a screen-saver that runs in all uncovered areas. It's called /bin/true. STUMPWM made it possible. 16:10:03 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:10:12 *maxm-* likes to watch xscreensavers, some of them are pretty amusing or have sophisticated algorithms inside 16:10:15 maxm-: Have two or three emacs windows on a vertical split? 16:10:59 nyef: yea I usually have browser, xterms, irc window etc 16:11:12 sea4ever [~sea4ever@unaffiliated/sea4ever] has joined #lisp 16:11:17 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:11:37 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 16:11:38 -!- sea4ever [~sea4ever@unaffiliated/sea4ever] has left #lisp 16:11:41 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Client Quit] 16:12:04 maxm-: x shape extension works pretty much "automatically" after a region is set, so if an external xid is accepted by a screensaver, it would have to do something special to _reset_ shape. 16:14:20 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.233] has joined #lisp 16:14:35 but would not algorithm for the screensaver have to take into consideration the shape? like to determine the center at least.. What if its L shape, if the vertical part of L is long and thin, if you determine center by bounding rect, then draw in the center, most of it will be off-screen 16:15:11 maxm-: and the modern way is a composite manager & windows with ARGB visuals (compatible non-ARGB subwindow can be created in ARGB parent, iirc). 16:15:30 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@210.Red-88-6-232.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 16:15:54 pspace [~andrew@csu-137-148-247-167.csuohio.edu] has joined #lisp 16:15:57 maxm-: well, I'd expect xscreensaver to use dimensions and center of a given window, if it accepts window id.. 16:16:06 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@210.Red-88-6-232.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:48 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 16:17:28 hmm maybe determine the center itself, make a rect window, start screensaver, then re-shape it 16:17:32 There's, of course, more to be done here (old "xsnow" screen-saver-alike comes to mind: snow was gathering on window title bars!..) 16:18:32 -!- H4ns [55b38eb7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.179.142.183] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:19:45 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.155.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:20:44 [6502] [58959a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.154.87] has joined #lisp 16:21:35 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 16:21:58 nikodemus` [~nikodemus@cs181056239.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:22:39 -!- dmitrymatveev [~user@89.28.195.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:24:35 boei_ [~boei@21.Red-79-154-73.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:56 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:25:43 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 16:26:39 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 16:27:01 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:27:47 -!- boei [~boei@238.Red-81-32-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:29:30 antgreen [~user@70.50.65.12] has joined #lisp 16:30:36 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:30:51 SegFault1X|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 16:30:51 -!- SegFault1X|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Client Quit] 16:32:11 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:34:22 anfairch [~anthony@c-76-22-14-22.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:16 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@186.12.70.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:36:33 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.27] has joined #lisp 16:37:12 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:33 msponge [~msponge@31-35-218.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 16:38:38 drake01 [~drake01@unaffiliated/drake01] has joined #lisp 16:39:17 -!- drake01 [~drake01@unaffiliated/drake01] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:39:21 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:40:23 drake01 [~drake01@115.246.179.48] has joined #lisp 16:40:35 -!- drake01 [~drake01@115.246.179.48] has quit [Changing host] 16:40:35 drake01 [~drake01@unaffiliated/drake01] has joined #lisp 16:40:41 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 16:40:45 -!- drake01 [~drake01@unaffiliated/drake01] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:40:55 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:12 -!- wolgo [~jarrod@184-106-197-125.static.cloud-ips.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:41:26 wolgo [~jarrod@184-106-197-125.static.cloud-ips.com] has joined #lisp 16:41:55 drake01 [~drake01@unaffiliated/drake01] has joined #lisp 16:42:19 -!- drake01 [~drake01@unaffiliated/drake01] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:45:42 Guest86224 [~drake01@115.246.179.48] has joined #lisp 16:46:38 -!- Guest86224 [~drake01@115.246.179.48] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:48:20 I find myself wanting cl-expect today. 16:48:31 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@59.37.63.109] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:48:38 *Xach* tries googling, fails miserably 16:49:20 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.32.192.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:49:43 I wrote screen-scraper to fill something like that need a while ago 16:49:49 but it's bit-rotted, I'm sure ): 16:49:57 nanoc [~conanhome@186.157.175.247] has joined #lisp 16:49:57 drake01__ [~drake01@115.246.179.48] has joined #lisp 16:50:08 (and it is more of a vt100 expect with 2-dimensional matching and stuff) 16:50:15 -!- drake01__ [~drake01@115.246.179.48] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:50:20 -!- msponge [~msponge@31-35-218.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: msponge] 16:51:07 antifuchs: ... sounds like something more fitting a 3270-expect :D 16:51:20 <[6502]> xach: quite hard googling that indeed 16:51:51 Xach: maybe something sticked together with CL-AWK? 16:52:00 coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:03  huh, I didn't know about that. 16:52:42 drake01__ [~drake01@115.246.179.48] has joined #lisp 16:52:59 *Xach* slaps forehead 16:53:05 I can just use cl-ftp directly. Maybe. 16:53:48 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:54:13 -!- juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:54:18 ftp? yuck 16:54:23 <[6502]> Xach: why not calling curl instead? 16:54:43 -!- drake01__ [~drake01@115.246.179.48] has quit [Client Quit] 16:55:17 drake01__ [~drake01@115.246.179.48] has joined #lisp 16:55:20 [6502]: That is an option. 16:55:34 <[6502]> or using cl-curl 16:55:48 -!- drake01__ [~drake01@115.246.179.48] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:56:04 <[6502]> or drakma 16:56:07 <[6502]> geesh 16:56:16 <[6502]> lisp has too many libraries :-D 16:56:20 don't think drakma does ftp (: 16:56:22 Does drakma do ftp? 16:56:25 I don't think so either. 16:56:27 <[6502]> curl does 16:56:42 drakma only does HTTP+HTTPS 16:56:44 drake01__ [~drake01@115.246.179.48] has joined #lisp 16:56:47 but yeah, using a library for speaking the protocol is better than interfacing with a program that does (: 16:57:02 <[6502]> antifuchs: because ... 16:57:06 I have to delete 130 files and the server doesn't do globbing. My first thought was to just drive a FTP session with Expect but if I can avoid Tcl... 16:57:21 *Xach* goes with second thought 16:57:27 because to speak with a program, you have to translate strings back and forth 16:57:56 (I was referring to writing your own expect thing, not necessarily about curl libraries) (: 16:58:01 -!- drake01__ [~drake01@115.246.179.48] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:58:10 *[6502]* normally just uses emacs for those things 16:59:14 drake01__ [~drake01@115.246.179.48] has joined #lisp 16:59:29 <[6502]> Xach: can't you just copy ls to a buffer, change it to rm commands and paste back in an ftp session? 16:59:59 Just, just, just. Sure, there are many options. 17:00:03 -!- drake01__ [~drake01@115.246.179.48] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:00:07 <[6502]> hahaha 17:01:12 drake01__ [~drake01@115.246.179.48] has joined #lisp 17:01:13 Xach: it's not trivial to do it with expect. The output for ls would be on a separate data connection 17:01:18 schmr [53e35d4f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.83.227.93.79] has joined #lisp 17:01:28 awful protocol 17:01:37 -!- drake01__ [~drake01@115.246.179.48] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:01:43 dlowe: use expect to drive an FTP client 17:01:45 dlowe: I don't think so. It would write to the pty. 17:02:05 <[6502]> Xach: i'm not sure I understand the problem... do you need to this just once? 17:02:10 Xach: oh, you mean use expect to drive /usr/bin/ftp 17:02:10 Yes, I agree, ftp is awful, which is actually why using ftp directly in CL didn't occur to me. 17:02:13 *dlowe* shudders. 17:02:29 <[6502]> to this = to do this 17:02:35 drake01__ [~drake01@115.246.179.48] has joined #lisp 17:02:40 [6502]: That's right. And it will take just a few seconds to do. Thinking about it made me wish for more tools in CL. 17:02:55 That there are ways to do it without those tools isn't exactly the point. 17:03:05 <[6502]> oh... i see 17:03:11 msponge [~msponge@31-35-218.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 17:03:17 <[6502]> so you're trying to solve a general problem 17:03:30 -!- drake01__ [~drake01@115.246.179.48] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:03:51 Mostly just wishing. 17:04:06 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:04:06 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 17:04:55 Xach: I believe lftp could do globbing client-side 17:05:04 too late! my cl-ftp program is chugging away. 17:05:22 -!- msponge [~msponge@31-35-218.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 17:05:40 "mrm *" should do it (: 17:05:48 I would have used tramp and dired, myself 17:06:39 *[6502]* never deleted a directory/file using emacs 17:07:48 juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 17:10:36 ... 17:11:00 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 17:11:09 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 17:13:18 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:13:18 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-235.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:13:19 -!- pspace [~andrew@csu-137-148-247-167.csuohio.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:13:46 <[6502]> dired is nice :-) ... i only used the command until now 17:14:09 -!- juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:14:12 Yeah, I'm slowly getting used to doing more with dired. 17:14:20 H4ns [57a9e203@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.169.226.3] has joined #lisp 17:14:35 does doug hoyte ever hang out here? 17:14:48 <[6502]> LOL 17:14:50 drake01__ [~drake01@115.246.179.48] has joined #lisp 17:14:51 wccoder: yes, though I forget his nickname. 17:15:09 He rarely if ever speaks. 17:15:23 oh ok 17:15:40 More tools in CL for CL! 17:15:42 we've got quite a lot of idlers... 17:15:45 Let's discuss earmuffs convention for specials and make him reveal himself :) 17:15:47 Awesome book, Doug! 17:15:48 -!- drake01__ [~drake01@115.246.179.48] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:16:22 -!- schmr [53e35d4f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.83.227.93.79] has left #lisp 17:16:24 *slyrus* idles (and dodges Xach's dirty looks) 17:16:24 *p_l* ponders how many nicks here are abandoned shell accounts, forgotten irc client instances, and forgotten logging bots 17:16:36 *[6502]* uses earmuffs for locals and double earmuffs for specials 17:16:37 i just ordered LoL over the weekend and realized that i met doug at cansecwest a bunch of years ago and wanted to say hi 17:17:00 he was doing an nmap tutorial with fyodor, which i attended 17:17:10 slyrus: NO 17:17:17 drake01__ [~drake01@115.246.179.48] has joined #lisp 17:17:39 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-44-148.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 17:17:51 So, there are at least seven special variables in common lisp that do not have earmuffs. 17:18:06 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:18:09 p_l: two people that i know have died while on irc. the ghost clients were disconcerting. 17:18:17 nyef: does * have earmuffs, btw? 17:18:20 -!- drake01__ [~drake01@115.246.179.48] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:18:22 ... 17:18:30 Okay, maybe not seven. 17:18:36 nyef: *** counts as having earmuffs, imo 17:18:42 Xach: there was a comic somewhere, about a sysadmin looking after those screen instancs 17:18:42 akovalenko: I'd argue that * doesn't, but ** does. 17:18:43 ** possibly 17:18:46 ** is a corner case 17:18:47 -, /, //, /// 17:18:50 So that puts us down to five. 17:19:22 p_l: I'd expect not a lot, given how easily bots get disconnected, I'd expect unattended connection to become disconnected as fast. 17:19:25 (** doesn't have earmuffs, ** IS earmuffs.) 17:19:37 **** There. 17:19:47 Hang on, there's another set, surely? 17:19:50 <[6502]> and * is a non-special with earmuffs, eventually. Not a special without... 17:20:02 [6502]: * _is_ special 17:20:02 earmuffs with earmuffs! 17:20:11 pjb: not if you make some kind of reconnect script 17:20:21 not all bots require manual reconnection 17:20:26 http://l1sp.org/cl/* <-- select "Variable" 17:20:35 So, eight without earmuffs? 17:20:35 am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has joined #lisp 17:21:11 slyrus: did I mention I'm hacking on (i.e. totally mangling) Hunchentoot 17:21:19 pjb: irssi on stable server without long routing issues (several hours of lost connectivity, maybe longer depending on settings) can run just around forever 17:21:34 <[6502]> akovalenko: that's in the repl... not in lisp 17:21:42 drake01__ [~drake01@115.246.179.48] has joined #lisp 17:21:48 gigamonkey: cool! 17:21:59 gigamonkey: do you plan to republish that work? i'd be interested. 17:22:16 H4ns: oh hey, didn't notice you'd come back. 17:22:23 I will push it up to github one of these days. 17:22:37 -!- drake01__ [~drake01@115.246.179.48] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:22:44 gigamonkey: cool. 17:22:45 It will be pretty unrecognizable to anyone familiar with hunchentoot code. 17:23:03 gigamonkey: which is a good thing. i think it's api is beyond repairable. 17:23:09 its 17:23:12 *blush* 17:23:14 H4ns: i think this hunchentoot update will provide interesting data about how people can/can't manage library evolution with Quicklisp. 17:23:26 H4ns: we'll let you live this time 17:23:39 dlowe: thank you! 17:23:42 nyef: are you going to the november Boston lisp meeting? 17:23:43 I'm planing to call it Toot because it's going to be a smaller, cuter web server. 17:23:45 drake01__ [~drake01@115.246.179.48] has joined #lisp 17:23:56 Xach: well. the question is whether it's worth it. 17:24:04 -!- [6502] [58959a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.154.87] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:24:16 dlowe: :p 17:24:20 Xach: I have yet to hear of one. But I'll rearrange my schedule to fit, provided it's not on a Wednesday. 17:24:25 -!- drake01__ [~drake01@115.246.179.48] has quit [Changing host] 17:24:25 drake01__ [~drake01@unaffiliated/drake01] has joined #lisp 17:24:47 nyef: it hasn't been scheduled yet, but I've volunteered to speak and Fare is investigating venues and dates. 17:24:55 gigamonkey: i would not mind seeing something better become hunchentoot 2.0 17:25:06 -!- drake01__ [~drake01@unaffiliated/drake01] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:25:35 gigamonkey: (if you're interested in the brand at all 17:25:40 we should first outline what we dislike about hunchentoot before trying to construct something which is supposed to be way beter... 17:25:49 drake01__ [~drake01@115.246.179.48] has joined #lisp 17:26:01 -!- nikodemus` [~nikodemus@cs181056239.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:26:03 juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 17:26:17 -!- drake01__ [~drake01@115.246.179.48] has quit [Changing host] 17:26:17 drake01__ [~drake01@unaffiliated/drake01] has joined #lisp 17:26:20 H4ns: well, we'll see if anyone but me thinks my thing is "better". 17:26:32 gigamonkey: ok. i'll look at it for sure. 17:26:57 madnificent: I made such an outline. It had one item: "I can't understand this thing." Then I started fixing that. ;-) 17:27:40 gigamonkey: would it be possible to modularize hunchentoot? that could make what you need smaller, easier to understand, and still reuse proven code. 17:28:03 gigamonkey: you're talking about the source code, i presume? 17:28:54 madnificent: yeah. Well, I've always had a hard time with the Hunchentoot API too. 17:29:38 But my thing is aimed at being more modular insofar as I'm making an extremely stripped down version on top of which one could rebuild whatever extra bits are actually useful. 17:30:10 And I've broken out various bits of functionality into separate objects so you don't have to replace, say, the whole acceptor to change how logging happens. 17:30:12 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:25 gigamonkey: which repository should i start watching? 17:30:43 It would also be interesting to see something WSGIish such that many different frameworks would have an easier time migrating between future / better webservers, but that is probably outside the spec 17:31:01 I think clack aims to do that. 17:31:15 http://clacklisp.org/ fmi 17:31:32 -!- leo2007` [~leo@123.114.48.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:31:33 It comes from the Japanese CL cultural/linguistic island. 17:31:41 here's a wishlist wiki page https://github.com/edicl/hunchentoot/wiki/Wish-List 17:31:43 Xach: thanks! hadnt seen that yet 17:31:46 madnificent: I guess https://github.com/gigamonkey/hunchentoot though if I rebrand it perhaps it will be toot rather than hunchentoot 17:31:51 -!- drake01__ [~drake01@unaffiliated/drake01] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:32:32 gigamonkey: hijacking the hunchentoot name seems incorrect if you want to use a different interface and a different architecture 17:32:51 hunchentastic! (with exclamation point) 17:33:06 -!- anfairch [~anthony@c-76-22-14-22.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:33:13 madnificent: yeah, thus hunchentoot -> toot. 17:33:19 gigamonkey: i like that 17:33:20 But the current repo is just what I got when I forked the main one. 17:33:35 tooth ;; for _h_igh loads 17:33:35 I guess I need to fork my own repo to give it the proper name. 17:33:50 superflit_ [~superflit@71-33-156-49.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:56 Or maybe there's a way to rename a repo. 17:33:56 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:34:00 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-33-156-49.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:34:00 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 17:34:16 Xach: that's sure to be an ass for using the name in a terminal. it can work and all, but you're bound to discover places in which software doesn't take care of the ! in bash scripts. at least, i'd assume that. 17:34:28 H4ns: what do you mean by separating connection management and request handling? 17:34:37 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 17:34:41 although i never found hunchentoot to be an especially good name for a web server 17:34:46 *madnificent* stops, this seems offtopic 17:35:09 lol 17:35:15 oconnore [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:21 -!- lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:35:29 gigamonkey: i think that accepting connections and reading http requests from them is one job, handling them is another. for example, one often wants to have a http and a https acceptor, but have them handle the same urls. 17:35:38 exactly what i wouldn't call it..... 17:35:42 Is there a standard case-like macro that evaluates each 'key'? 17:36:05 Zulu_Inuoe: it's called COND. 17:36:14 anfairch [~anthony@c-76-22-14-22.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:18 Zulu_Inuoe: otherwise, no, but there are things like that in libraries. 17:36:20 Zulu_Inuoe: you can make one if you really want one 17:36:22 madnificent: hunchentoot is a great name. the first hit in google points right to the software. it cannot be improved at all. 17:36:28 Zulu_Inuoe it's trivial to write one 17:36:30 pjb: Haha, well that's a bit long. Thanks anyway 17:36:38 H4ns: so toot should do that. I've taken the point of view that there should be no need to use different acceptor classes so a lot of things that used to be generic functions are not anymore. 17:36:39 Zulu_Inuoe: depending on the use case, I've seen #. used to do that. 17:36:43 Zulu_Inuoe: the answer is "no" 17:36:46 Zulu_Inuoe: ALEXANDRIA:SWITCH is one of those already written 17:36:47 H4ns: does it hint to anything webserver like to you? 17:36:52 kennyd_: I know. I'm asking in case I didn't spot any standard one 17:37:07 You can spin up an HTTP acceptor and an HTTPS acceptor and then have them hand off requests to the same handler/dispatcher. 17:37:09 madnificent: does Apache? 17:37:12 madnificent: not at all, but that is not what a name is useful for. 17:37:16 H4ns: i think google isn't the only thing 17:37:24 dlowe: did i say i liked apache? :) 17:37:29 gigamonkey: right. this is about what i was longing for. 17:37:31 Xach: Oh, neat. The clack people recommend one-package-per-file. 17:37:47 madnificent: no, but I think you're outvoted by sixty-million to one 17:37:48 sykopomp: Good tip! 17:38:00 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:38:03 madnificent: give me an example of a name for some program that you consider "good" 17:38:17 clearly descriptive names are not associated with success 17:38:20 "I am Eitarow Fukumachi of the Clackpeople" 17:38:38 Zulu_Inuoe: use with care. The variables must be available at read time for that to work, but I've seen it used in cases where you want to use a constant or similar, instead of magical literal numbers. 17:38:57 gigamonkey, H4ns: recently, I've seen pages started redirecting from the http to https, and not handle the http requests at all anymore 17:39:12 (which is a pretty much OK and valid use case, I'd think) 17:39:26 sykopomp: Yes, well aquainted with the dangers. But that scenario you just described is exactly what I wanted it for. Just making sure constants are evaluated at read-time via eval-when 17:39:27 gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:27 dlowe: still wouldn't help toot though. and why would be outvoted like that? to be honoust, i never went to google and entered 'hunchentoot' in order to figure out what a good webserver for lisp would be. i went searching for webservers. and then through cliki and hearing hunchentoot a gazilion times, i realized that hunchentoot might be a sane choice. but the name in itself never helped me, aside from not having to follow the 17:39:28 immediate link in cliki towards the documentation. And even then, i trust cliki more than google when it boils down to common lisp links. 17:39:33 antifuchs: sure, nothing wrong with that either. 17:39:45 Zulu_Inuoe: cool :) 17:39:50 could you handle this with the split you suggested? 17:39:55 i'd argue that google-ability is one of the least important things when it comes down to the lisp libraries we have now, but i may indeed be alone on that front. 17:40:24 antifuchs: of course. i'd not force all acceptors to use the same handlers. i think it should be possible without too much effort. 17:40:27 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:35 madnificent: to find the library, sure. However, I think it's fairly important with regards to documentation and troubleshooting 17:40:38 -!- anfairch [~anthony@c-76-22-14-22.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:40:38 cool 17:40:44 I'm all for it, then (: 17:40:45 how about echapa? apache backwards, as it's not patchy 17:40:59 antifuchs: you mean literally an HTTP redirect? 17:41:03 yup 17:41:10 madnificent: if I google 'lisp web server', hunchentoot is the first hit, with 'The Common Lisp web server' clearly visible in the link's snippet. 17:41:32 fwi 17:41:34 H4ns: sykopomp seems to create good names. chillax, for instance. json was a good one, cl-json. sykobot was another good one. (not all from him) 17:41:34 w 17:41:39 also, note that HSTS is now gaining traction (and it's a good idea if you use https) (: 17:41:45 anfairch [~anthony@c-76-22-14-22.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:51 so in toot that'd just be set up an HTTP listener with a simple handler that redirects all requests to an HTTPS listener and then set up the HTTPS listener with a handler that actually serves your site. 17:42:03 sykopomp: and i don't trust google when it comes to common lisp advice. google rarely knows what's 'new' or decent. at least, that's the feeling it gave me. 17:42:05 madnificent: my chosen library/app names would be considered 'douchy' by some. 17:42:22 madnificent: chillax is good because it says what? to me, it is completely opaque. 17:42:40 you chillax on a couch! 17:42:58 H4ns: it uses couchdb, hence at least there's a link. 17:42:59 it has the letters 'c' and 'l' in it. 17:43:17 i don't know but sometimes google delivers pretty much relevant things and then sometimes not, i don't know what affects this..... 17:43:20 routers ? 17:43:29 sykopomp: and fair, they may be. my only point is that i kind-of like it when a library has a meaningful name 17:43:33 madnificent: i'm not convinced, but *shrug* 17:44:02 samebchase [samuel@pi.nipl.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:07 sometime i get shitload of advised webpages or links to..... 17:44:09 as such i'd rather load a library named shakamaka-html-shabingbong than the library named blakma. assuming both would be html generators. at least one hints me at it being about html. 17:44:10 madnificent: as long as the name is memorable and unique enough, that's good enough for me. 17:44:53 sykopomp: i guess that's the most important. but add to it that you can easily remember what the library was for, given you see the name again. 17:45:01 -!- lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:45:20 madnificent: I think as long as the name is memorable enough, that's a minor concern. 17:45:26 hunchentoot-web-server would have been an option tho.... 17:45:39 name-function..... 17:45:44 the only issue I might have with hunchentoot is how hard it might be to remember how to spell it. 17:46:03 i once named a webserver i used internally quickserve, given that it was easy to setup. i liked the name (but the webserver sucked bigtime) 17:46:25 tbnl nickname for hunchentoot is still there.. 17:46:30 you could use another tribe. Yana HTTP Server or something 17:46:53 Xach: regarding sessions left after people who are no longer with us: http://xkcd.com/686/ 17:46:55 I just tried to put the initials of "Lisp HyperThreading Server" into a word ... 17:47:05 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:47:11 grep f.*l.*h.*t /usr/share/dict/american-english 17:47:22 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 17:47:27 ah, sorry, "fast lisp HTtp" 17:48:05 how about flysheet, footlight, flights, or filthiest? 17:48:37 flip214: all very nice! 17:48:41 filthiest has a certain appeal 17:49:26 these names have the advantage that in the http/server/service/network/lisp word cloud they should be fairly directional 17:49:56 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:51 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:51:18 with c,l,h,t I can offer caliphate, accomplishment, searchlight, spaceflight or torchlight 17:51:22 oudeis [~oudeis@222.126.197.129] has joined #lisp 17:51:41 lol 17:51:53 flip214: caliphate! 17:52:05 let's have everyone flagged as terrorist ;-) 17:52:07 (require :ca) (require :hate) (require :lip) 17:53:17 madnificent: I was playing around with learning how webservers work and chose the name 'conserv' 17:54:33 sykopomp: why not add an e at the end. you'll get an extra serve and the name cons in there, which is a nice lisp reference. 17:54:41 (though the e only helps with the latter) 17:54:48 former! 17:55:18 gotta go! 17:55:20 enjoy 17:55:25 madnificent: don't you know that hip names remove vowels? 17:57:21 Anyone use the aux-data facility in Hunchentoot? 17:57:40 gigamonkey: I did. 17:57:43 I don't any more. 17:57:51 xshoppyx [~xshoppyx@pcp069970pcs.wireless.calpoly.edu] has joined #lisp 17:58:13 gigamonkey: on my kill list 17:58:20 :~( 17:58:54 H4ns: okay. I'll probably ax it in toot. 17:59:11 madnificent: then we could even use "reconsider", that has a "cons" too 18:02:48 Kron__ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 18:02:48 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:03:55 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:04:29 gigamonkey: what's the aux-data facility? 18:05:07 slyrus: it's a way to store data in the request object. i used it to have a handler in the dispatch table add more info to the request. 18:05:13 without actually handling it. 18:05:21 ah, ok 18:05:23 -!- SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:06:55 -!- xshoppyx [~xshoppyx@pcp069970pcs.wireless.calpoly.edu] has quit [Quit: xshoppyx] 18:06:55 -!- lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:07:16 If it was removed, my first instinct would be subclassing & change-class, I think. 18:07:21 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 18:07:39 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:57 i think there is a tension in hunchentoot between its function oriented past and its object oriented present. it used to be architected around (anonymous) functions, and then moved into a more object oriented architecture with some of the function oriented business still in there. 18:08:28 drake01 [~drake01@unaffiliated/drake01] has joined #lisp 18:08:57 both approaches have their merits, but supporting both at the same time creates a lot of clumsiness. aux-data is one such thing. subclassing request would be the "right" way with its current object oriented architecture. 18:09:07 coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:08 *Xach* uses hunchentoot pretty much exactly like he used tbnl 18:09:09 JoRjaNi [~Mothainut@host-212-75-20-44.bbccable.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:25 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.62.153] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:10:33 Xach: i'm not saying there is anything wrong with that. it is just that the internals are very messy because of all the backwards compatibility that is maintained. 18:10:48 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:10:54 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.62.153] has joined #lisp 18:11:37 Hmmm. Maybe I'm just old school. I'm making toot less object-oriented. 18:11:52 Anyway, fewer generic functions. Less need to define subclasses in order to customize its behavior. 18:12:08 -!- JoRjaNi [~Mothainut@host-212-75-20-44.bbccable.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:12:11 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.67.212.191] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:12:11 Like I said, I may be the only one who likes the direction I'm going with this. 18:12:14 -!- lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:12:31 JoRjaNi [~Mothainut@host-212-75-20-44.bbccable.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:52 gigamonkey: ah, the suspense! 18:15:02 I'm getting close. I'm writing some basic docs as we speak. 18:15:05 gigamonkey: Making it easier to test handlers in isolation, I hope? 18:15:22 -!- JoRjaNi [~Mothainut@host-212-75-20-44.bbccable.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:15:41 JoRjaNi [~Mothainut@host-212-75-20-44.bbccable.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:18 nyef: in isolation from what? the server? 18:16:29 H4ns: if you really want to look: https://github.com/gigamonkey/hunchentoot/tree/stripped 18:16:41 Yeah. So you don't need an HTTP client to test your handlers. 18:16:49 gigamonkey: i'll gladly wait for the docs :) 18:17:02 There are absolutely no guarantees about this. It seems to work for the most minimal tests. 18:17:12 And I'm liable to rename everything, etc. 18:17:19 gigamonkey: I think that cl-routes (or was it something else?) did that right .. the *REQUEST* variable was given a meaningful value, even on the REPL 18:17:25 -!- JoRjaNi [~Mothainut@host-212-75-20-44.bbccable.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:17:42 nyef: yeah, that should be possiblish. 18:17:46 JoRjaNi [~Mothainut@host-212-75-20-44.bbccable.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:41 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:30 -!- JoRjaNi [~Mothainut@host-212-75-20-44.bbccable.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:19:33 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 18:19:51 JoRjaNi [~Mothainut@host-212-75-20-44.bbccable.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:13 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:20:38 -!- JoRjaNi [~Mothainut@host-212-75-20-44.bbccable.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:21:01 JoRjaNi [~Mothainut@host-212-75-20-44.bbccable.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:50 -!- JoRjaNi [~Mothainut@host-212-75-20-44.bbccable.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:22:11 JoRjaNi [~Mothainut@host-212-75-20-44.bbccable.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:52 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 18:22:52 -!- Kron__ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:23:52 -!- JoRjaNi [~Mothainut@host-212-75-20-44.bbccable.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:24:11 JoRjaNi [~Mothainut@host-212-75-20-44.bbccable.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:31 -!- lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:24:47 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 18:25:39 -!- JoRjaNi [~Mothainut@host-212-75-20-44.bbccable.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:25:48 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@1x-193-157-203-215.uio.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:26:01 JoRjaNi [~Mothainut@host-212-75-20-44.bbccable.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:03 boei__ [~boei@164.Red-81-32-229.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:33 Kron__ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 18:28:33 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:29:08 gigamonkey: any reason for the #: -> : rename? (: 18:29:28 I can also offer "Hans H Http Server" abbreviations: Chihuahua, hashishs, highchairs, highlights or .... (drumroll) hitchhikers! 18:30:10 -!- JoRjaNi [~Mothainut@host-212-75-20-44.bbccable.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:30:13 inspired by beirc, I offer up hehttp - hübner-enhanced http (: 18:30:17 antifuchs: cuz that's how I roll. ;-) 18:30:31 JoRjaNi [~Mothainut@host-212-75-20-44.bbccable.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:45 -!- boei_ [~boei@21.Red-79-154-73.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:31:42 boei [~boei@164.Red-79-146-127.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:44 -!- samebchase [samuel@pi.nipl.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:32:09 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:59 Hans' H's High performance Http server ... or HHHPHP server! 18:34:12 (Performance HttP) 18:34:20 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-33-156-49.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:34:24 -!- boei__ [~boei@164.Red-81-32-229.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:34:30 you could call it PHP for short 18:34:59 -!- JoRjaNi [~Mothainut@host-212-75-20-44.bbccable.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:35:06 ... 18:35:18 JoRjaNi [~Mothainut@host-212-75-20-44.bbccable.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:19 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 18:38:55 HaHuHi PHP! 18:39:10 Or just HIP (Http In Lisp) 18:39:13 -!- lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:39:54 "HTTP" would be in "shortstop", too 18:40:36 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 18:41:29 psyllo [~benjamin@69.59.136.174] has joined #lisp 18:42:00 -!- boei [~boei@164.Red-79-146-127.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:42:08 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:42:17 pavelludiq [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has joined #lisp 18:42:25 boei [~boei@172.Red-83-61-34.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:11 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@186.157.175.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:45:20 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:46:10 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:35 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-49.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:48:34 marsell [~marsell@120.18.123.254] has joined #lisp 18:48:45 -!- todun [~todun@SEAS296.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has quit [Quit: :q] 18:49:09 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c0938.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:00 -!- boei [~boei@172.Red-83-61-34.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:50:02 boei_ [~boei@37.Red-83-33-86.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:19 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 18:52:20 -!- Kron__ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:53:29 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:53:37 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 18:54:50 hi 18:55:25 -!- hakzsam 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19:18:47 Xach: sorry about that 19:22:54 np 19:22:56 lol 19:25:11 benny` [~benny@i577A1C61.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:26:13 -!- benny [~benny@i577A7DEC.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:26:26 pavelludiq [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has joined #lisp 19:26:54 eulyix [~charles@2.26.61.222] has joined #lisp 19:27:00 -!- pavelludiq [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:27:03 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@83.222.166.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:27:11 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:27:58 FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 19:28:04 -!- drake01 [~drake01@unaffiliated/drake01] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:28:08 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:28:11 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@186.122.203.108] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 19:28:28 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 19:28:43 dmitrymatveev [~dm@83.149.44.68] has joined #lisp 19:29:12 -!- SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:30:44 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 19:31:11 -!- JoRjaNi [~Mothainut@host-212-75-20-44.bbccable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:31:52 -!- H4ns [57a9e203@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.169.226.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:37:43 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:37:51 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 19:38:06 dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 19:40:03 lemonodor [jjwiseman@nat/google/x-vafoxexkqlautdaj] has joined #lisp 19:44:48 ah lemonodor 19:45:35 hi! 19:45:52 Is there some means to clone a cons cell, short of doing something like (cons (first orig) (rest orig))? 19:46:09 marsell: there's not much to a cons cell 19:46:17 :) 19:46:25 antifuchs: are you around, antifuchs? i was hoping to point some people at a lemonodor post, but the server seems to be having issues. 19:46:26 copy-seq 19:46:38 marsell: Yes, you can use LIST* instead of CONS. 19:46:50 homie: wrong 19:46:56 homie: that does more than one cons cell 19:46:59 marsell: There's probably another way or two as well. 19:47:11 copy-list ? 19:48:02 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 19:48:18 homie: No way to limit how far the CDR is copied. 19:48:26 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:48:27 ah 19:48:30 ok i got it 19:48:32 lol 19:48:36 Thanks, guys. :) 19:48:40 Looks like the answer is CONS or LIST*. 19:49:22 wtf, nth ? 19:49:34 pspace [~andrew@dsl093-011-109.cle1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:01 -!- dmitrymatveev [~dm@83.149.44.68] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:50:13 Oh, heh. Maybe something with SUBSEQ and (SETF CDR)? 19:50:45 -!- mogs [~mogs@119.64.49.14] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:51:43 Actually, on that topic, is there some way to find the address of a cons cell? 19:52:06 so if I want to update hunchentoot-cgi to work with the new hunchentoot, what's the preferred way to get that? it's not in quicklisp yet, right? 19:52:37 marsell: Implementation-dependent. 19:52:42 I can grab the hunchentoot-1.2 sources from github, but am I sposta pick up the dependencies through quicklisp or do I need to install those from github too? 19:53:00 marsell: Technically, any reference to the cons cell IS the address in some way. 19:53:12 Xach: around 19:53:14 ? 19:53:15 slyrus: You can mix quicklisp libraries with github/other installed libraries 19:53:32 marsell: Also note that the garbage collector is usually permitted to move objects around however it wants. 19:53:37 marsell: (print-unreadable-object ('(1 . 2) *standard-output* :identity t)) 19:53:54 Heh. 19:54:14 slyrus: hi! 19:54:21 that will probably print the (current) address of cons cell. What to do with that address is another question.. 19:54:28 akovalenko: thanks. :) 19:54:28 hey xach, finally getting off my ass here... 19:54:38 I just wanted a simple way to verify list sharing. 19:54:43 akovalenko: Not guaranteed to be the actual address, just a representation of its identity. 19:55:00 marsell: Oh, that? Bind *print-circle* to T. 19:55:02 marsell: setting *print-circle* to T is good for that 19:55:19 Okay, I'll take a look at that. 19:55:30 -!- pspace [~andrew@dsl093-011-109.cle1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:55:49 slyrus: if i were you, and i wanted to update h'toot-cgi, i'd stick them in ~/src/lisp/hunchentoot-1.2.0/ and ~/src/lisp/hunchentoot-cgi/, make sure they are in the asdf source registry (asdf:*central-registry* is easiest), then (ql:quickload "hunchentoot-cgi") to see what breaks. 19:56:10 slyrus: you can confirm that they're loading non-quicklisp versions with (ql:where-is-system "hunchentoot-cgi") and (ql:where-is-system "hunchentoot") 19:56:25 thanks! 19:56:58 ugh... looks like I've got a clbuild2 lying around... 19:57:06 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@189.227.222.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:57:31 does anyone use clbuild2 anymore? with or without quicklisp? 19:57:37 *Xach* does not know 19:58:52 slyrus: It's easier to just do it yourself. I use a little bash script to collect symlinks to all of my .asd files, and then I use quicklisp for everything else. http://paste.lisp.org/display/125606 for an example 19:58:56 Riz__ [~chatzilla@adsl-75-57-174-140.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:46 *Xach* hasn't used a symlink in 1 year 20:00:58 i stick everything in ~/src/lisp/ and have an asdf2 configuration that scans it. 20:00:58 oconnore: you know asdf2 lets you configure it to crawl through your projects path, right? 20:01:00 lemonodor: oh my! 20:01:04 lemonodor: I'll take a look, hold on 20:01:17 -!- FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has quit [Quit: 1/0] 20:01:39 oconnore: http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Configuring-ASDF 20:04:38 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:04:48 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:04:50 easyE [PUZLoZwzuS@panix2.panix.com] has joined #lisp 20:06:18 milanj [~milanj_@93-87-194-178.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 20:06:27 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:06:45 Xach: wtf? hunchentoot-cgi isn't on github? the author is seriously slacking. 20:08:13 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-235.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:08:14 slyrus: probably a lone-wolf hacker who plays by his own rules, just like everyone else 20:08:21 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 20:08:28 francogrex [~user@109.130.100.178] has joined #lisp 20:08:49 Xach is wise beyond his years. 20:09:54 Xach: them old-school lispers. 20:10:15 Xach: step 1: https://github.com/slyrus/hunchentoot-cgi 20:10:18 pspace [~andrew@dsl093-011-109.cle1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:50 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:10:55 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 20:11:58 If I wanted to use ABCL while in Eclipse, could somebody recommend a specific Eclipse plugin that is probably better than the other Eclipse LISP plugins (in general terms of doing LISP in Eclipse and in specific terms of using ABCL in Eclipse) 20:12:57 Cusp, maybe? 20:13:12 The only Lisp plugin I know of for Eclipse would be CUSP. 20:13:19 There is another called "Dandelion" 20:13:29 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 20:13:43 *Xach* has used neither 20:13:47 slyrus: progress! 20:13:48 Xach: Please tell me there's a component that goes with it called "Burdock"? 20:13:49 there's a variety of LISP plugins for Eclipse, hence my need to ask advice for what might be better than the others, esp for ABCL 20:14:23 MjrTom: I think your best bet is to try all of them and blog about the results. Also, it is written "Lisp" these days. 20:14:47 well, I was thinking my best bet would be to ask somebody who's already tried them all 20:15:13 MjrTom: That would work if anyone else here used them, but I doubt that is the case. 20:15:24 *nyef* can't actually stand to use Eclipse. 20:15:26 MjrTom: Unfortunately, even as an ABCL developer, I don't know of any Eclipse plugin mojo. Please let us @armedbear know if you find something usable. 20:15:39 vasily_pupkin [~avatar@46.211.169.7] has joined #lisp 20:15:40 Bloody rage-inducing environment, eclipse is. :-/ 20:15:41 I'll try out cusp 20:15:46 hi 20:16:09 is there any bindnigs for dbus with introspection support? 20:17:49 vasily_pupkin: I only know of one binding, but i don't know what it supports, sorry. it is called "cl-dbus". 20:18:11 I'm not sure it's a binding, either. It might be a direct implementation of some protocol. 20:18:31 thanks :] 20:19:05 Xach: this gets things to compile, at least: https://github.com/slyrus/hunchentoot-cgi/commit/4bc94034fdc145af67a3b940ed4d0669a565a0db 20:19:42 Bike_ [~Glossina@69.166.35.234] has joined #lisp 20:20:00 xshoppyx [~xshoppyx@24-205-235-116.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:20:06 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-044-241.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:27 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:20:28 o happy day! 20:21:37 -!- anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:22:20 *Xach* now hopes cl-oauth will be fixed 20:23:02 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 20:25:39 *easyE* +1 cl-oauth. 20:25:51 How badly is cl-oauth broken? 20:28:40 todun [~todun@SEAS302.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has joined #lisp 20:28:56 First failure is a reference hunchentoot:*approved-return-codes*. Haven't fixed that to see what else fails. 20:29:05 bug filed yesterday at https://github.com/skypher/cl-oauth/issues/5 20:29:53 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 20:30:13 So, it is a Hunchentoot API mismatch? 20:30:24 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:31:05 Is parenscript still the way to go? 20:32:08 not sure it ever was. (write your own javascript) 20:33:28 -!- todun [~todun@SEAS302.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 20:36:04 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-093-175.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 20:36:50 BountyX [~andrew@dsl093-011-109.cle1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:50 -!- pspace [~andrew@dsl093-011-109.cle1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:37:17 drdo: these days it's a common lisp -> js 'compiler' 20:38:30 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 20:38:36 ehu: Wasn't it always a lisp -> js compiler? 20:38:39 sort of 20:38:53 drdo: nah. it used to be a sexp->js translator 20:39:10 it'd be a way to write js in sexps instead of curlies 20:39:23 -!- easyE [PUZLoZwzuS@panix2.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:39:46 -!- eulyix [~charles@2.26.61.222] has quit [Quit: To iterate is human, to recurse divine] 20:42:05 xcv_ [~xcv@dsl-225-28.hive.is] has joined #lisp 20:43:16 todun [~todun@SEAS302.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has joined #lisp 20:43:45 ehu: is there a list of tests that current ABCL doesn't pass ? 20:44:24 fe[nl]ix: yes. it's in our repository. easyE knows about it. he's been updating that list on and off. 20:46:28 -!- xcv_ [~xcv@dsl-225-28.hive.is] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:46:50 -!- markskilbeck [~Mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:48:14 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:48:24 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-044-241.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:48:46 wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:49:42 moah [~gnu@dslb-084-061-243-194.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:35 markskilbeck [~Mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 20:56:32 -!- msponge [~msponge@31-35-218.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: msponge] 20:59:45 msponge [~msponge@18.189.25.33] has joined #lisp 21:00:11 -!- msponge [~msponge@18.189.25.33] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:03:33 CaZe [~CaZe@unaffiliated/y354c] has joined #lisp 21:05:03 -!- dlowe [dlowe@nat/google/x-urppmfbvavhpoikp] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:06:28 fe[nl]ix: any specific test you're looking for? 21:06:47 please help, I don't know why this program won't work on SBCL (Lisp connection dies): http://paste.lisp.org/display/125610 21:07:09 Try in the terminal. 21:07:12 ehu: no, but I noticed that make-pathname doesn't support :back 21:07:20 -!- jiacobucci [~jiacobucc@gw-asdl.ae.gatech.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:08:21 and I think I found that file, http://svn.common-lisp.net/armedbear/trunk/abcl/test/lisp/ansi/ansi-test-failures 21:08:38 is :back supported by the spec?? 21:08:39 wow. 21:08:43 didn't know that. 21:08:53 (although, admittently, it's useful) 21:09:06 pjb, ok 21:09:06 clhs 19.2.2.4.3 21:09:29 ehu: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/19_bbdc.htm 21:09:45 -!- xshoppyx [~xshoppyx@24-205-235-116.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: xshoppyx] 21:09:52 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:10:06 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-125-209.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 21:10:06 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 21:10:18 fe[nl]ix: ah. wow. never seen that. 21:10:20 pjb: http://paste.lisp.org/display/125610#1 21:10:24 jiacobucci [~jiacobucc@gw-asdl.ae.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 21:10:31 guess we need to file a ticket on it. 21:10:40 it's definitely useful, as I said. 21:11:24 Posterdati: there you have. 21:11:46 invalid window parameter 21:11:58 Try to pass the right window reference to destroy window. 21:12:05 -!- benny` is now known as benny 21:12:07 where? 21:12:18 You've got the sources. 21:12:23 Is there a reason that the someting like the set-timeouts function in hunchentoot isn't part of usocket? 21:12:41 gigamonkey: hi! 21:12:44 gigamonkey: how are you ? 21:13:20 Posterdati: yo. 21:13:22 Good. 21:13:24 pjb: but where? 21:13:30 In the sources. 21:13:59 grep for DestroyWindow 21:14:12 pjb: yes, ok... But there's not DestroyWindow 21:14:26 Somewhere in there there is. 21:14:41 not in the source I pasted 21:14:48 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-33-156-49.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:14:53 You have the sources of the libraries called too! 21:15:14 glut 21:15:23 all of them. 21:17:50 (defcfun ("glutDestroyWindow" destroy-window) :void 21:17:51 (window-id :int)) 21:19:30 a glut of libraries! 21:19:47 in this case, a library of gluts. 21:19:54 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:00 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@210.Red-88-6-232.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 21:20:18 A glut of gluts? 21:20:32 A library of libraries. 21:20:38 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:20:38 that sounds large. 21:21:08 you can fit a diagonal argument into that 21:21:28 -!- lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:22:23 Posterdati: I admire and appreciate your patience. 21:23:19 He has a purpose! 21:24:11 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 21:25:24 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-093-175.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:25:32 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 21:26:16 prxq: alas you people are far clever than me, I don't admire you :) 21:26:41 puchacz_ [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:26:46 -!- lbc [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:28:05 Posterdati: So you've found where destroy-window is called from? 21:29:36 Posterdati: you may also trace the function that creates windows and destroy-window, and see what window-id they return/get. 21:30:21 Posterdati: with (trace ). That 21:30:29 That's very useful 21:31:28 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:31:29 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 21:32:13 Daditos [~kvirc@unaffiliated/daditos] has joined #lisp 21:33:12 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-72-43-20-246.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:34:16 Brendan_T [~brendan@46.105.251.111] has joined #lisp 21:35:47 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:36:19 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:36:27 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 21:36:35 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:36:45 -!- BountyX [~andrew@dsl093-011-109.cle1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:36:50 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 21:41:25 Kron__ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 21:41:25 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:41:38 lutok [~user@ip98-169-240-101.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:39 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:41:52 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.62.153] has left #lisp 21:42:08 tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-29-223.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:18 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 21:43:18 -!- Kron__ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:43:49 -!- tsuru [~charlie@adsl-74-179-25-15.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:44:11 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@0132300253.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Quit: lars_t_h] 21:45:06 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 21:45:44 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 21:47:07 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host133-226-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has left #lisp 21:50:40 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:51:04 slyrus: you asked about high-performance hunchentoot the other day, right? 21:55:55 Kron__ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 21:55:55 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:57:32 udzinari [~user@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 21:58:11 Schlumberon [a3bc2774@gateway/web/freenode/ip.163.188.39.116] has joined #lisp 21:58:51 superflit [~superflit@71-33-156-49.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:13 New to lisp, and writing a function that accepts as an optional paramater the "number" keyword. If passed, the function is supposed to print a numbered list of items from a list; if not passed it should print the list without numbering them. 22:00:07 Is there a good, clean way to write this function that doesn't involve evaluating (if number (format t "1")) (etc...) more than once? Or should I just make it a macro? Or, alternately, just go ahead and evaluate it more than once? 22:00:07 -!- Kron__ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:00:17 Wait, optional or keyword? 22:00:49 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:01:23 Technically it's a keyword parameter - I was under the impression that keyword params were optional? 22:01:23 There's probably two or three ways to do this in a fairly clean fashion. 22:01:44 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 22:01:45 Yes, but we also have "optional" parameters, which are different. 22:01:57 I'm not sure what the "right" way to do it is. I just want to make a generic function to print the things I'm storing in this list, and give it an option to say "number it this time" or "don't number it this time". 22:01:59 (defun li (list &key number) (if number (loop for i from 1 for e in list do (format t "~A) ~A~%" i e) (dolist (e list) (format t "~A~%" e)))) 22:02:07 Schlumberon: use IF. 22:02:31 ah okay, so just do the same thing twice 22:02:49 It's not the same thing. 22:02:59 actually, crap, now that I think about it - lists aren't guaranteed to be in any order, are they? I'm using this to say "Select an item" (using the number that's printed) but that number won't necessarily be stored later? 22:03:05 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 22:03:15 Schlumberon: lists are ordered sequences. 22:03:39 okay, so I can do something like (nth (list #) ....)? 22:03:46 -!- dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Quit: bye] 22:03:51 (Did I say I'm new?) 22:03:59 Yes, or (elt seq index) so that you can choose to use list or vectors later. 22:04:07 if lists were unordered, there would be no distinction of (defun li ()...) and (() li .. defun). 22:04:18 ha, good point akovalenko 22:04:19 Schlumberon: nth's first argument is the index. The list is second. 22:04:33 (let ((print-function (if number (let ((number 0)) (lambda (item) (format t "~A: ~A~%" (incf number) item))) (lambda (item) (format t "~A~%" item)))) (dolist (item list) (funcall print-function item))) ? 22:04:41 I just made up nth right now, didn't know it existed ;) 22:06:02 that's brilliant nyef, thank you :) 22:06:22 mishoo_ [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has joined #lisp 22:07:03 Schlumberon: It's a start. There's versions which don't require a destructive update operation, for example. 22:07:19 Well I'd just write: (mapc (if number (let ((number 0)) (lambda (item) (format t "~A: ~A~%" (incf number) item))) (lambda (item) (format t "~A~%" item))) list) 22:08:10 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 22:08:15 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:08:31 -!- oconnore [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:09:30 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:10:14 marsell_ [~marsell@120.20.250.242] has joined #lisp 22:11:04 Kron__ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 22:11:04 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:11:11 (labels ((next-print-function (index) (lambda (item) (format t "~A ~A~%" index item) (next-print-function (1+ index))))) ...), further implementation left as an exercise for the reader. 22:11:25 waveman [~tim@124.170.43.134] has joined #lisp 22:11:46 -!- vasily_pupkin [~avatar@46.211.169.7] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:12:36 -!- marsell [~marsell@120.18.123.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:12:37 -!- marsell_ is now known as marsell 22:13:58 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-87-194-178.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 22:14:21 i haven't been in #lisp in a while, don't know if i showed http://heavymetalab.appspot.com/browse/lisp before. you guys might find it useful. 22:14:24 Does incf imply a setf? 22:14:27 milanj [~milanj_@93-87-194-178.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 22:14:37 Okay... that one I could have googled. 22:14:53 Schlumberon: It implies something a touch more complicated than setf, but using the same machinery. 22:15:02 ok 22:15:15 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-33-156-49.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:15:19 Schlumberon: have a look at http://cliki.net/ 22:16:06 lemonodor: Not bad, but a touch hard to read on that background. 22:16:37 you mean on white? 22:16:37 -!- Kron__ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:16:40 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 22:16:59 Image background for the actual logs. 22:17:05 Cool, thanks pjb. I'm working through the Gigamonkeys book, but I'm too impatient to actually read it before I jump in and start trying to do my own thing. So I apologize if I occasionally ask something like what I just did that is already answered in the book; I'll try to curb the urge. 22:17:11 -!- juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:17:37 Schlumberon: toward the bottom of the Getting Started page, there's the link to the clhs. 22:17:44 kk cool 22:17:50 When you have a question to a specific operator, it's the reference to check. 22:18:00 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-87-194-178.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Client Quit] 22:18:10 ahh, very nice 22:21:15 -!- ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 22:21:44 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.100.178] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:22:31 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 22:22:51 nanoc [~conanhome@186.157.167.35] has joined #lisp 22:23:00 (defun li (list &key number) (format t "~{~@[~A. ~]~A~&~}" (mapcan #'list (mapcar (if number (lambda (_) _ (shiftf number (1+ number))) (constantly nil)) list) list))) 22:23:12 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-49.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:23:37 -!- lemonodor [jjwiseman@nat/google/x-vafoxexkqlautdaj] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 22:27:30 superflit [~superflit@71-33-156-49.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:44 A model of clarity! 22:29:28 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:29:29 A model of something alright, I'm just not sure it's clarity. 22:29:39 that's functional purity! 22:29:57 easyE [xgyHEScM0e@panix2.panix.com] has joined #lisp 22:29:57 y'all dirty imperative hackers.. 22:29:59 -!- todun [~todun@SEAS302.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has quit [Quit: :s] 22:30:06 brandelune [~suzume@pl316.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:30:14 which just goes to show it's possible to write unreadable code in any style 22:30:25 juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 22:31:03 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Quit: bye] 22:31:27 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 22:31:35 (defun li (list &key number) (format t "~:[~3@*~?~;~1@*~?~]" number "~:@{~A. ~A~%~}" (loop for i from 1 for e in list collect (list i e)) "~@{- ~A~^,~%~}.~%" list)) 22:33:20 ...apparently this turned into an obfuscated code contest while I was away? 22:33:43 the joys of format 22:34:54 So, now I'm taking a part of the list which goes like this (It's based on Seibel's cd database list called *db*) ((account1) (account2) (account3)) and each account has a :balance 22:35:20 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 22:35:36 and I want to be able to snag the nth account out of that, and change the balance according to a value that's read in... I'm thinking I want to just setf what's returned by nth, will that do what I'm going for? 22:36:04 no wait... I need to... mumble mumble... 22:36:18 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:36:28 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:36:39 Schlumberon: (setf (getf (nth ) :balance) 1000000) 22:38:00 I figured it out :D thanks akovalenko, anyway ;) 22:38:20 small victories 22:39:02 dmiles [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-44-148.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 22:39:55 With (defpackage :fmt (:use :cl) (:export "N=0" "N++")) (defvar fmt::*n* 0) (defun fmt:n=0 (&rest args) (declare (ignore args)) (setf fmt::*n* 0)) (defun fmt:n++ (stream &rest args) (declare (ignore args)) (format stream "~A" (incf fmt::*n*))) you could write 22:39:55 (defun li (list &key number) (format t "~:[~@?~;~*~@?~]" number "~*~{- ~A~^,~%~}.~%" "~/fmt:n=0/~:*~{~/fmt:n++/~:*. ~A~%~}" list)) 22:40:21 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:40:34 todun [~todun@SEAS302.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has joined #lisp 22:41:07 pjb, are you declaring an entirely new package just to print this list? 22:41:33 Schlumberon: notice if you have to do a lot of formated output of strange data, definining formater functions leads to cleaner format control strings. 22:41:58 It's a good idea to define a smart package name, because ~// reads the function name in the CL-USER package by default. 22:42:00 regarding Cusp on Eclipse & ABCL; either they can't play together or if they could, it's not worth the effort to me. I'll try Dandelion 22:42:01 pjb: why do you make FMT use CL? 22:42:04 I have one. Well, sort of - I'm using the formatter function (modified a bit) from the CD database chapter of PCL. 22:42:06 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-44-148.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:42:11 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d869fc7.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:34 pkhuong: because by default anything goes. Not very useful how I write the rest, ok, but in general you will have a real package with a lot more functions defined in it. 22:42:44 MjrTom: you have a pointer to dandilion? 22:42:50 pjb: have an empty use lisp. 22:42:51 I'm sure it's pretty primitive compared to what I could be doing, but at this point I want to move on and get some other things done before I start refining. 22:42:52 -!- puchacz_ [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:42:52 *use list. 22:43:06 -!- Daditos [~kvirc@unaffiliated/daditos] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.2 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 22:43:08 MjrTom: are you on windows or linux? 22:43:15 Schlumberon: sure, don't let us having fun slow you down in your learning ;-) 22:43:20 dmiles I'm on windows - http://sourceforge.net/projects/dandelion-ecl/ 22:43:29 pjb: it's a fine reason to have a :USE list. I don't see how it's an argument for using CL. 22:43:35 -!- nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 22:43:40 MjrTom: did you confirm you got cusp+sbcl to work at least once? 22:44:06 dmiles I'm not interested in using sbcl, however I see I did actually get cusp to work with clisp 22:44:07 pkhuong: I could also have writen (in-package "FMT") ... (in-package ) 22:44:11 MjrTom: (using the shipped sbcl.exe) 22:44:34 MjrTom: ok good.. i just making sure you passed sanity test with cusp.. if you saw it work wiuth clisp.. that is fine 22:45:29 dmiles do you know how I could get it to work with ABCL? it seems to me like it probably can't, since ABCL is a jar ... maybe I could make a cmd file that invokes java.exe -jar abcl.jar 22:45:32 Okay... maybe now is a good time to read the part on error handling. 22:45:44 MjrTom: I got the imporession that CUSP only reqired slime/swank interface to operate 22:46:12 which I dont know what that means, but maybe clisp will be good enough for me 22:46:21 MjrTom: sio yes.. java -jar abcl.jar [..same stuff emaces would uyse..] 22:46:41 oh - then that is worth a try - thx 22:46:43 MjrTom: so yes: java -jar abcl.jar [..same stuff emacs would use..] 22:47:36 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:47:49 MjrTom: i never acvtualyl made ABCL work wiotuh cusp.. but i felt confident it would when easyE fixed the emacs 22:48:03 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@84-74-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:48:31 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.89.233] has joined #lisp 22:50:13 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c0938.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:51:27 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:56:28 ISF [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has joined #lisp 22:56:52 Hello! 22:57:22 I'm trying to install quicklisp on server but I got "(SB-BSD-SOCKETS::ADDRINFO-ERROR "getaddrinfo" -2)". Could you tell me what can cause this error? 22:57:42 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:57:47 failure to resolve a host, apparently 22:57:59 udzinari` [~user@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 22:58:13 that is, maybe DNS is inaccessible.. 22:58:24 -!- Brendan_T [~brendan@46.105.251.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:59:12 -!- udzinari [~user@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:59:33 Younder [~john@49.157.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 23:00:32 Have the quicklisp problems with Hunchentoot 1.2.0 been fixed? 23:02:11 unknown host src.quicklisp.org ... ok, dns problem :( 23:03:18 xshoppyx [~xshoppyx@24-180-7-158.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:03:48 mrSpec: that is very, very, very old 23:03:58 mrSpec: get http://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp instead 23:06:26 Brendan_T [~brendan@46.105.251.111] has joined #lisp 23:07:23 Anyone know why Hunchtoot sends 400: Bad Request with HTTP/1.0 rather than HTTP/1.1 ? 23:07:42 -!- xshoppyx [~xshoppyx@24-180-7-158.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:08:07 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-44-42.iburst.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:08:53 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:09:42 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d869fc7.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: benkard] 23:09:56 HTTP/1.0 is Bad (-: 23:10:24 hence, requests using it are Bad by transitivity (: 23:11:15 xshoppyx [~xshoppyx@24-180-7-158.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:12:33 -!- Brendan_T [~brendan@46.105.251.111] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:12:54 nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d1a3c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:03 Is it possible for #\Linefeed and #\Newline to be different characters? 23:17:06 Cam [~cam@trivialand/staff/Cam] has joined #lisp 23:17:10 s/possible/conforming/ 23:17:26 -!- Cam [~cam@trivialand/staff/Cam] has quit [Client Quit] 23:18:26 Yes. 23:18:34 On MacOS, #\newline would be #\return. 23:18:52 On MS-Windows, #\newline would be #(#\return #\linefeed). 23:19:15 that would be tricky. 23:19:19 Really? 23:19:20 Yes :-) 23:19:27 Cam [~cam@trivialand/staff/Cam] has joined #lisp 23:19:39 I could by the MacOS thing but one character being two characters? 23:19:42 gigamonkey: no, on ms-windows, it would probably have to be a different character. 23:19:52 -!- Cam [~cam@trivialand/staff/Cam] has quit [Client Quit] 23:20:15 Since you could issue #(#\linefeed #\return #\newline) on ms windows, and expect LF CR CR LF. 23:20:44 So what does (char-code #\Newline) return on such a system? 23:21:02 pjb: only after MSVCRT stuff goes away (that's the level which "pretends" that line endigh is \n everywhere) 23:21:12 *ending 23:22:05 akovalenko: do you mean \r or \l ? 23:22:11 ;-) 23:22:38 For the equivalent of a while loop, I want to read the chapter on "loop", right? 23:22:44 gigamonkey: implementation dependent. It would have to be something outside of the range of usual characters, if it's not mapped to a usual character. 23:23:00 Schlumberon: right. (loop :while test :do body...) 23:23:05 kk thx 23:23:10 well, the idea of #\linefeed beind #\a-special-code-point-for-crlf has some beauty.. 23:23:25 Just out of curiosity, are there modern-day CLs where (not (eql #\Newline #\Linefeed)) 23:23:31 akovalenko: but it prevents you to write unix files on ms-windows... 23:23:36 pjb: How common is it to use keyword symbols for loop? 23:23:44 Zulu_Inuoe: rare. 23:23:56 gigamonkey: you would have to try on ms-windows and if any "modern-day" CL runs on MacOS, on MacOS. 23:23:58 Xach: thanks, but I have this error (SB-BSD-SOCKETS::ADDRINFO-ERROR "getaddrinfo" -2) after (quicklisp-quickstart:install), so it looks like script cant download one of the files :( 23:24:09 Zulu_Inuoe: for each given lisper, it's either "never" or "always" 23:24:23 Zulu_Inuoe: depends on whether you want to avoid problem when you later (use-package :some-package-that-exports-a-while-or-for-macro). 23:24:33 So is anyone here running on Windows? Can you tell me what (eql #\Newline #\Linefeed) returns? 23:24:45 sbcl on windows returns T 23:24:50 pjb: what problems? 23:24:53 Let me try, I might be able to ssh to a MS-Windows-7 system... 23:24:59 pjb: Good point! I think I'll pick up that habbit now. I think it actually looks nicer too 23:25:25 gigamonkey: (defpackage :loops (:export :while)) (loop while nil) (use-package :loops) 23:26:01 pjb: still not seeing the problem. 23:26:04 pjb: how ofter you use-package dynamically after being in the using package for a while? 23:26:19 gigamonkey: #\Newline => #\Newline, and #\Linefeed => #\Newline 23:26:42 gigamonkey: did you try it? 23:26:49 Here: ; Evaluation aborted on #. 23:27:08 that is, any argument for keywords in loop is simultaneously an argument against a legitimate code like this: (let ((for "Anton Kovalenko")) ...) 23:27:10 akovalenko: in the REPL, a lot. 23:27:23 akovalenko: my REPL tend to run for months :-) 23:27:26 *Ober* ponders clisp repl in emacs 23:28:21 pjb: Hmmm. I'm not sure I see how that example maps to anything in my normal practice. I see--it'sbecause you're using a package after reading code in the using package. Well, that's in my category of "don't do that" 23:28:26 But YMMV 23:28:29 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-242-218.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 23:28:48 gigamonkey: I only have clisp running on MS-Windows, and there, (eql #\newline #\linefeed). 23:29:26 gigamonkey: but clisp has the specification that it presents a common plateform to the programs running on it, (eg. it's little endian even on big endian systems). 23:29:44 The problem of course is that #\Linefeed isn't guaranteed to exist. 23:29:49 If one really cares about portability. 23:30:10 gigamonkey: yes, don't do that, only while for, and the other loop keywords are common words. It's just too bad they're not exported from CL. 23:30:31 -!- juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:31:31 I just realized that by tossing loop controls into the keyword package, you end up with :=, reminds me of this PL/0 compiler I had to write for a class 23:32:53 gigamonkey: Thanks for your book, by the way, it's fantastic :) Dead sexy, even. 23:33:14 *Schlumberon* goes on his rounds, 'cause he's working a dead end security job while he learns Lisp. 23:33:38 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:33:56 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:34:33 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 23:34:49 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:35:19 Schlumberon: glad you're enjoying it. 23:35:26 -!- brandelune [~suzume@pl316.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: brandelune] 23:35:57 brandelune [~suzume@pl316.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:36:49 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 23:40:58 -!- Younder [~john@49.157.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:41:55 gigamonkey: ccl-1.7 on ms-windows maps #\newline to #\linefeed too. 23:42:15 So there too you can't write unix files as text files, you have to go thru binary files. 23:42:38 Is there any way to see which specific file CFFI resolves a foreign library name to? 23:42:44 pjb: there's external format support for it in CCL 23:43:02 Schlumberon at least you could get your Level III if you don't have it already :) 23:43:06 pjb: ...more accurately, almost everywhere except SBCL and maybe ECL 23:43:11 akovalenko: indeed, and a text file cannot contain random control codes... 23:43:25 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 23:44:09 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:45:16 pjb: in practice, :eol-style :lf (or its equivalent) is fine for reading and writing unix files, including control "characters" 0-31 (ascii). 23:45:38 -!- todun [~todun@SEAS302.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has quit [Quit: :s] 23:53:21 -!- brandelune [~suzume@pl316.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: brandelune] 23:56:30 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:56:39 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 23:57:30 -!- easyE [xgyHEScM0e@panix2.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:57:47 CFFI is loading the wrong libGL when asked for (:default "libGL") on my Ubuntu 11.10/fglrx system 23:58:17 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:58:45 "libGL.so" is wrong anyway. 23:59:28 todun [~todun@SEAS302.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has joined #lisp