00:00:00 Okay, time's up, I'm gone for the evening. 00:00:02 -!- nyef [~nyef@ip-64-134-155-138.public.wayport.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 00:00:04 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-248-241-85.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:04:47 sellout- [~Adium@12.232.236.2] has joined #lisp 00:05:30 -!- benny [~benny@i577A1D0C.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:05:33 -!- claint [~user@88.251.224.53] has quit [Quit: shutdown] 00:06:00 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@c-98-248-241-85.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:10 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 00:06:57 LiamH [~healy@pool-108-45-22-54.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:14:33 -!- nha [~prefect@5-74.104-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:16:53 -!- ISF_ [~ivan@201.82.133.10] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 00:19:25 -!- Martiini [~martin@88-196-141-145-dsl.rpl.estpak.ee] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:19:54 ISF [~ivan@201.82.133.10] has joined #lisp 00:23:56 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:17 -!- drparse is now known as alexgordon 00:24:35 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 00:29:31 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has joined #lisp 00:30:14 *Xach* yawns, waves 00:31:49 Xach: You see that QL got mentioned at the SPLASH Scheme workshop? 00:32:05 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.133.10] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 00:32:09 (as something they are stealing ideas from for R7RS) 00:32:27 I didn't, no. 00:33:37 Xach: Then you probably also didn't hear me say that R7RS-large will be bigger than the CL standard. (followed by "I'm sure they'll be making fun of us for that pretty soon") 00:34:15 ISF [~ivan@201.82.133.10] has joined #lisp 00:34:25 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 00:35:02 I'm a little puzzled about why Scheme is growing. is it baking itself into a Common Lisp clone? 00:35:11 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:35:17 it is growling 00:36:22 pnathan: It's actually splitting  R7RS-small will be smaller than R6RS, and -large will be bigger than CL. The latter will be built on the former, but will probably have additional primitives. 00:37:27 Perhaps I am a naive fool, but why does the Scheme standard need to keep growing? I thought the early Scheme had all the primitives needed , and as a design goal, it would stay small and have all the primitives needed? 00:38:20 pnathan: It doesn't have threading primitives (for example)  which may appear in R7RS-large. 00:38:53 It sounds like they're not still not planning on standardizing FFI 00:39:08 IE  plenty of primitives that it doesn't yet have. 00:39:30 pnathan: But I agree about the need to separate the libraries from the language. 00:40:06 I would think the Scheme people (at least the ones on the -small side) would also be into that, but it doesn't seem like it. 00:40:08 sellout-: "bigger" doesn't necessarily mean harder to implement, if it has less corner cases 00:41:17 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-132-175.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:41:21 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.132.175] has joined #lisp 00:42:36 fe[nl]ix: Of course not. 00:46:19 Kron [~Kron@98.143.102.22] has joined #lisp 00:46:45 -!- Kron is now known as Guest83400 00:47:08 mookin [~moo-kin@h-176-10-226-49.na.cust.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 00:51:22 You could call r7rs-small Scheme, and r7rs-large Common Scheme. 00:57:34 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.212.118] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 00:57:35 -!- easyE [9wyBaBbbW5@panix2.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:59:26 ISF_ [~ivan@201.82.133.10] has joined #lisp 00:59:33 -!- S1am [~guest@eth-209.20-homell.natm.ru] has left #lisp 01:01:12 sellout-1 [~Adium@12.232.236.2] has joined #lisp 01:01:30 -!- sellout- [~Adium@12.232.236.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:02:16 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:02:35 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 01:09:57 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 01:11:20 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.233.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:13:33 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-207-226.wbs.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:18:19 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@186.12.21.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:21:00 -!- frozencemetery [~frozencem@INDIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:24:42 -!- BrianRice [~water@174-31-153-63.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:25:07 frozencemetery [~frozencem@INDIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 01:26:02 -!- frozencemetery [~frozencem@INDIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 01:28:57 BrianRice [~water@174-31-153-63.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:53 nanoc [~conanhome@186.157.160.172] has joined #lisp 01:32:25 frozencemetery [~frozencem@INDIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 01:32:31 -!- sellout-1 is now known as sellout 01:47:25 -!- mtd [~martin@chop.xades.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:49:43 knotpine [~cmsimon@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:34 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 01:50:38 -!- knotpine [~cmsimon@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:51:35 -!- sausages [~sausages@balmora.robotjunkyard.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:56:03 triliyn [~desmond@76-206-56-151.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:32 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:06:01 -!- alexgordon [~alexgordo@host-2-99-35-207.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 02:08:39 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:10:01 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 02:11:51 Guest17695 [~martin@chop.xades.com] has joined #lisp 02:15:52 -!- Brendan_T [~brendan@46.105.251.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:16:11 coderdad [~coderdad@ip72-200-211-242.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:46 Daditos [~kvirc@unaffiliated/daditos] has joined #lisp 02:26:22 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@ip72-200-211-242.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 02:27:17 SegFault1X [~SegFaultA@c-98-248-241-85.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:26 Yuuhi` [benni@p54839F6D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:29:33 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483DC4E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:37:12 topeak [~topeak@61.149.230.2] has joined #lisp 02:40:15 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:48:05 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: totzeit] 02:55:54 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-108-45-22-54.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:59:31 -!- yroeht [~yroeht@yroeht.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:59:38 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 03:01:05 el-maxo_ [~max@p57A5695C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:26 -!- el-maxo [~max@p5DE8F29B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:08:51 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:09:21 yroeht [~yroeht@yroeht.eu] has joined #lisp 03:09:33 msxx [~msxx@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 03:09:39 hello 03:09:45 knotpine [~cmsimon@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:00 can someone recommend me a good html scrapper for lisp 03:10:13 scraper 03:10:17 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@186.157.160.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:11:05 I had one but it is unpublished and bit-rotten. ;-( 03:11:05 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 03:11:43 msxx: Try to search cliki.net http://www.cliki.net/admin/search?words=crawler 03:12:46 benny` [~benny@i577A16F8.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 03:12:50 thanks. i've found closure HTML too 03:12:52 alexgordon [~alexgordo@host-2-99-35-207.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:55 -!- benny` is now known as benny 03:14:09 -!- yroeht [~yroeht@yroeht.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:15:40 i forgot to mention that i'd like it to handle malformed html 03:15:56 Sure. :-) 03:16:06 :P 03:16:27 My old unpublished and bit-rotten scrapper included a few heuristics too. 03:18:12 -!- alexgordon [~alexgordo@host-2-99-35-207.as13285.net] has left #lisp 03:18:24 what parser did you use to write it? 03:19:09 msxxx [~msxxx@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 03:19:18 pjb what parser did you use to write it? 03:19:51 Well, actually the parser is extracted. You can find it at: https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/trees/master/common-lisp/html-parser ; but it's old (no html5, etc). 03:20:12 thanks i'll take a look 03:22:18 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-161-223.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:22:35 -!- sellout [~Adium@12.232.236.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:23:38 -!- msxx [~msxx@76.73.16.26] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)] 03:24:48 -!- msxxx is now known as msxx 03:25:11 sellout- [~Adium@12.232.236.2] has joined #lisp 03:25:35 just curious why are your package names so long?: I guess to avoid conflicts with third party packages? 03:26:52 nanoc [~conanhome@186.123.185.205] has joined #lisp 03:28:15 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:30:12 Good guess. 03:30:47 I should probably follow that, I'd just name it html-parser 03:31:36 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:31:54 Now, I notice that I often either refers a single symbol a single time, so spelling out the package name once in a file is not a big deal, OR I refer a lot of symbols a lot of times, then I just use the package (defpackage ... (:use ...)), and again, it's no big deal writing the long package name once there. 03:32:10 There are a ton of html parsers named html-parser... 03:33:03 msxx: furthermore, I almost never type them, I copy-and-paste them from the result of (apropos "..."). 03:33:30 except when loading them manually in repl? 03:33:39 So, in emacs we could even replace them with a nice little icon with an overlay :-) 03:33:51 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 03:34:11 msxx: (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.common-lisp) loads everything. 03:34:34 what does com. mean by the way? I've seen that naming convention before 03:34:44 It's informatimago.com reversed. 03:35:12 And you should be grateful I don't have a multiple level, 63-character long each, fqdn... 03:35:24 :) 03:36:22 sub-domain-for-my-own-open-source-free-software.le-nom-de-domaine-de-pascal-bourguignon.com --> com.le-nom-de-domaine-de-pascal-bourguignon.sub-domain-for-my-own-open-source-free-software.common-lisp-cesarum.utility :-) So I don't want to hear any complaint. 03:39:04 leo2007 [lsd@SDF.ORG] has joined #lisp 03:39:49 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:43:57 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:44:02 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:45:20 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:45:51 cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.233.252] has joined #lisp 03:48:13 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Client Quit] 03:48:33 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:48:41 -!- knotpine [~cmsimon@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:50:36 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:50:50 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 03:53:50 knotpine [~cmsimon@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:29 -!- SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@c-98-248-241-85.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:56:56 -!- leo2007 [lsd@SDF.ORG] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.1] 03:58:24 pspace [~andrew@adsl-76-243-177-231.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:17 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@148-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:01:21 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 04:01:49 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.77.209] has joined #lisp 04:03:49 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 04:05:54 -!- Guest83400 [~Kron@98.143.102.22] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 04:09:25 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-18-14-252.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:46 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:40 -!- adeht [void@common.lisp.su] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:10:52 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-32-241.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:52 _death [void@common.lisp.su] has joined #lisp 04:10:56 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:11:08 daniel__2 [~daniel@p5B32617A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:30 -!- __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:11:33 -!- parabolize [~gyro@c-75-71-247-61.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:11:33 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:11:33 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:11:48 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has joined #lisp 04:11:51 parabolize [~gyro@c-75-71-247-61.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:12:05 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-14-252.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:12:05 -!- Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:12:39 -!- daniel__1 [~daniel@p508299A4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:12:48 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 04:13:01 -!- ISF_ [~ivan@201.82.133.10] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 04:14:36 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #lisp 04:14:36 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-32-241.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:16:20 __class__ [~class@99.105.56.217] has joined #lisp 04:16:48 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 04:17:30 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.133.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:32:09 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-18-14-252.as13285.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 04:33:01 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-18-14-252.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 04:33:05 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d855527.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:11 cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.84] has joined #lisp 04:34:11 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.84] has quit [Changing host] 04:34:11 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 04:37:19 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:40:14 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-138-106.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:40:17 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-138-106.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:41:52 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d855527.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: benkard] 04:44:29 -!- Cam [~x@trivialand/staff/Cam] has quit [Quit: be - back - later . bye.] 04:48:02 tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:17 Amyn1 [~abennama@m328eth.crans.org] has joined #lisp 04:50:23 -!- Amyn [~abennama@m328eth.crans.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:53:35 Brendan_T [~brendan@46.105.251.111] has joined #lisp 04:54:36 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d855527.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 04:57:47 dmiles [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 05:05:39 -!- Guest17695 is now known as mtd 05:08:45 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:09:17 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 05:11:21 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:11:26 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 05:12:28 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.132.175] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 05:14:23 -!- topeak [~topeak@61.149.230.2] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:15:08 -!- Daditos [~kvirc@unaffiliated/daditos] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.1.1 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 05:17:12 hmmm, I think I found either a ccl bug or a lispbuilder-sdl bug 05:17:33 Although I'm not running the latest versions I think... I guess I should update before concluding anything? 05:18:08 ya 05:20:20 hmmm, this is weird... it says the error is coming from ccl::%init-misc, but nothing seems to call that 05:20:53 I guess maybe %alloc-misc not being defined with defun might fool the traceback-printer-thingy? Or something? 05:23:03 -!- PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:24:55 PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 05:31:20 benkard_ [~benkard@mnch-5d86a152.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:10 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:33:16 gavinharper [~gavinharp@dyn3-82-128-184-2.psoas.suomi.net] has joined #lisp 05:34:03 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d855527.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:34:03 -!- benkard_ is now known as benkard 05:37:07 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 05:41:00 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has joined #lisp 05:41:25 -!- mookin [~moo-kin@h-176-10-226-49.na.cust.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:43:39 -!- triliyn [~desmond@76-206-56-151.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:44:28 ace4016 [~ace4016@99-120-69-226.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:47:32 manuel_ [~manuel_@pD9FDE814.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:49:36 benkard_ [~benkard@mnch-5d86a152.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 05:53:36 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d86a152.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:53:36 -!- benkard_ is now known as benkard 05:54:40 _6502_ [d4ee5d94@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.238.93.148] has joined #lisp 05:55:09 <_6502_> It's over :-( 05:55:43 ? 05:56:22 <_6502_> eclm is over... i'll be in my office fighting with bad C++ this afternoon 05:56:40 Umph. I'm sorry. 05:57:41 <_6502_> i wanted to know what are the worst defects of lisp, but apparently it's an hard question to answer 05:58:04 gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.113.35] has joined #lisp 05:59:01 tritchey [~tritchey@12.207.196.2] has joined #lisp 05:59:01 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.113.35] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:59:18 gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.113.35] has joined #lisp 06:02:05 in my opinion/experience with CL. hash accesses are excruciatingly verbose. No intra-functional (optional) type checking. Mucking with strings & characters tends to be roundabout when using out-of-the-box CL (haven't really started in on making nice string functions, I expect it can be simplified). 06:02:11 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@12.207.196.2] has quit [Client Quit] 06:02:51 <_6502_> i also expecetd lisp merchandising (t-shirts, coffee mugs, hats, mousepads) but apparently this is not common at lisp conferences 06:03:49 there are a few cafepress stores 06:04:15 <_6502_> yes... indeed hash access syntax is annoying... and by the way i learned that "fixing" it using macros is considered bad style 06:04:36 hash access doesn't seem that bad to me 06:04:36 I wonder why.. 06:04:42 what alternative would you suggest? 06:04:43 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.113.35] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:05:13 (personally, I'd love a good static type system, but making one that wouldn't interfere with interactive development is still a research area, I think) 06:05:29 foo[i] = foo[j]  very simple. (setf (gethash foo i) (gethash foo j)) 06:05:30 (also, a better package system, and cleaner macros) 06:05:50 pnathan: it sounds like you're suffering from a case of C++. 06:05:55 Amyn [~abennama@m328eth.crans.org] has joined #lisp 06:06:09 ruby/python/perl 06:07:02 <_6502_> ralith it's not trivial in a lisp-2, but for a lisp-1 an alternative could be just "calling" the hash.... like (let ((value (ht key)) ...) where ht is an hash table 06:07:20 I like simple. piles of gethashes add complexity when really, a simple index is all that is needed. 06:07:37 oh yes, that's another thing I don't like all that much about CL; I'm rather taken with lisp-1s. 06:07:49 pnathan: you seem to misunderstand what "complexity" means. 06:07:53 -!- Amyn1 [~abennama@m328eth.crans.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:08:04 the words you're looking for are "verbose" and "concise" 06:08:08 pnathan: it adds typing, not complexity. 06:08:19 <_6502_> i like lisp-2... no idea why however 06:08:34 there are nice things about lisp-2 06:08:38 there are nice things about lisp-1 06:08:43 Visual complexity. 06:08:56 <_6502_> may be because of the implicit localization 06:09:11 pnathan: I find operator overloading to add a great deal of complexity, both visual and non. 06:09:38 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 06:10:06 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@c-71-192-163-98.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:10:56 <_6502_> what about using aref for hash tables too, and adding a reader macro that makes [...] meaning (aref ...)? 06:11:29 <_6502_> judt to fight back some of the confusion that clojure added ;-) 06:11:31 Suffice it to say that I find the hash manipulation routines in CL to be verbose and generally have high visual redundancy compared to most other languages I've dealt with. I haven't gotten around to figuring out a concise and lispy syntax for accesses yet. I put together a half-baked mechanism for creating hashes that looks a deal like JSON, but it doesn't do accesses (yet)? 06:11:56 <_6502_> judt=just 06:12:53 pnathan: in any case you should never write (gethash 'name person) but instead abstract away and write (person-name person). 06:13:33 Eh. I'm not using hashes as structs, usually the index is some data that points off to other data. 06:13:46 Whatever. 06:13:59 the point stands. 06:14:11 There /isn't/ a way to write accessor-, because varies. 06:14:18 You should write (setf (thing-indexed-by-non-integers think jndex) (thing-indexed-by-non-integers think index)), not (setf (gethash ... 06:14:21 _6502_: hashes aren't arrays. 06:14:24 -!- gavinharper [~gavinharp@dyn3-82-128-184-2.psoas.suomi.net] has quit [] 06:14:34 s/think/thing/ 06:14:49 That. isn't vastly improved 06:15:10 It just papers over the problem but with a different name. 06:15:18 Yes, it's vastly improved, because now it's abstract. It could be implemented with gethash, assoc, slot-value or anything else. 06:16:10 You miss my point: I'm using hash tables, and I don't need to abstract into a function that papers it over. 06:16:34 And my point is that your problem is that you're using hash tables, instead of problem domain abstractions. 06:16:37 If I have to write (get-my-foo-thing) instead of (gethash foo), what does that buy me 06:16:40 <_6502_> ralith: well... it depends. they're basically the same thing (just using non-integer keys). hash are simply more general 06:16:53 _6502_: no, they are not. 06:17:00 "similar interface"  "same thing" 06:17:16 pnathan: if you were programming in your problem domain, gethash vs. [] wouldn't matter. 06:17:27 ^ 06:17:31 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:17:43 which is, after all, among the basic tenets of lisp stype. 06:17:55 <_6502_> ralith: they're not the same... they are more general 06:18:07 pnathan: you should read sicp and/or watch the videos. 06:18:22 pjb-: No, you're pointing at one thing, but I'm pointing at another. I'm pointing at the fact that hash accesses in CL are verbose and ugly. 06:18:39 You're simply telling me UR DOING IT RONG. 06:18:41 _6502_: what exactly are you using that word to mean? 06:18:44 Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-4.html http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/ 06:18:56 Thanks, I'm familiar with the reference. 06:19:29 Learn more lisp. Then gethash won't bother you anymore. 06:19:30 What's ugly about it? 06:19:35 -!- manuel_ [~manuel_@pD9FDE814.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: manuel_] 06:19:46 see upscroll. 06:20:06 I've been reading, and I didn't see any particular point, beyond "several more keystrokes". 06:20:23 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:20:32 I imagine setf is more 'ugly' than =, too. 06:20:47 _6502_: you can make almost any data structure appear to be an array if you try hard enough. That doesn't mean you should. 06:21:09 *pjb-* hates languages that use = for assignation instead of, eg. := (viva pascal!) 06:23:26 Bike: (setf (gethash hashname key) (some-function (gethash hashname key))) is a lot of typing and visual parsing to understand that hashname[key] := somefunction(hashname[key] It's very wordy compared to, e.g., Ruby. Obviously the semantic is identical, but the syntax is inelegant. 06:23:52 pnathan: As I said, learn some lisp! 06:24:30 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 06:25:02 (define-modify-macro some-functionf (args...) some-function) (some-functionf (gethash key hash)) 06:25:03 How is it "inelegant", though? With Lisp I need to pay more attention to nesting, with ALGOL-likes I need to keep track of the precedence order... 06:25:29 modify-macros <3 06:25:41 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d86a152.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:25:48 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d86a152.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:55 pjb-: that doesn't solve the core verbosity and clarity issue. That /papers/ it over with a domain-specific function, which you will then have to recreate for each different domain you attack 06:26:15 Realize that I have actually been using lisp, and this is an annoyance I deal with! 06:26:32 pnathan: there are solutions, inclding generic indexing functions or macros, and up to reader macros. 06:27:06 pnathan: if you knew common lisp, you wouldn't be complaining about gethash, because you'd have already implemented a (syntactic) solution that pleases you. 06:27:30 -!- _6502_ [d4ee5d94@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.238.93.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:27:44 Or you'd have realized that it didn't matter. 06:28:00 -!- vpit3833 [~user@203.111.33.203] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:28:09 vpit3833 [~user@203.111.33.203] has joined #lisp 06:29:04 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-81.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:29:06 I already worked on a solution, and I didn't particularly care for what I came up with. 6502 mentioned he wanted to know the worst defects of Lisp, and I gave my opinion. 06:29:17 waveman [~tim@124.170.43.134] has joined #lisp 06:29:56 So, I'd rather let it be unless you can point to a particularly popular & elegant solution to the verbosity. 06:30:38 Well, amongst the lispers, sexps are popular. For non lispers, you can write a reader macro to be able to write foo[j]. 06:30:40 Is your criteria for "elegance" having less characters? 06:31:24 '{ foo[j] = foo[j] } --> (progn (setf (gethash j foo) (gethash i foo))) 06:31:41 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:32:00 I mean, you already said that they're semantically identical. I just want to understand what criteria you're using. 06:32:36 *pjb-* says good night 06:33:23 pjb-: night 06:34:33 Bike: In part, yes. It's more a fuzzy intuitive thing, unfortunately. I can prod around some hash table code at work tomorrow and try to winkle out what exactly annoys me. 06:34:46 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@c-71-192-163-98.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:35:40 I see. Well, if that does turn out to be it, maybe you'd enjoy poking around with APL and derivatives. 06:36:30 nostoi [~nostoi@125.Red-80-39-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:37:00 -!- pjb- [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:37:31 Bike: I seem to recall nesting hash tables and being generally annoyed at how much more typing it was taking than the equivalent in Perl. 06:38:48 -!- les [les@unaffiliated/les] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:39:41 les [les@unaffiliated/les] has joined #lisp 06:39:43 pnathan: Well, the usual solutions seem to be "make an abstraction for the domain" or "extra typing isn't really a problem", as people more experienced than me have already said. 06:40:03 I should call it a night too, though. Bye. 06:40:04 an n-ary recursive hash lookup function is trivial, for example. 06:40:07 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-97-16.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:40:22 psilord2 [~psilord@76.201.144.59] has joined #lisp 06:40:26 -!- psilord2 [~psilord@76.201.144.59] has left #lisp 06:44:01 Ralith: it's been a few months. I don't remember why exactly I was having to manually call hash functions all over the place. It's probable that if that particular code segment had had to be exercised more, wisdom would dictate creating a routine to sort the business out automatically. 06:44:41 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-29.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:46:13 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 06:48:48 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-81.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:50:31 -!- Amyn [~abennama@m328eth.crans.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:50:49 -!- duomo [~duomo@cpe-69-204-169-245.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 06:52:20 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:52:38 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:52:51 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 06:55:44 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.124.232] has joined #lisp 06:56:56 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@124.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:02:03 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:05:22 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.11.83] has joined #lisp 07:05:53 gko [~gko@114-137-38-248.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 07:06:45 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-xfwlshloebtciapv] has joined #lisp 07:10:18 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 07:10:36 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 07:10:41 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:11:18 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 07:11:23 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:12:00 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 07:12:06 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:12:15 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:12:42 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 07:12:48 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:13:24 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 07:13:27 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:13:29 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:13:44 epstein_ [koko@213.155.190.134] has joined #lisp 07:13:51 -!- SegFault1X [~SegFaultA@c-98-248-241-85.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:13:51 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-248-241-85.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:13:54 -!- epstein_ [koko@213.155.190.134] has left #lisp 07:14:06 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 07:14:11 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:14:26 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 07:14:48 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 07:14:53 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:15:05 mcstar [~mcstar@adsl-89-134-9-168.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:15:29 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 07:15:35 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:15:36 is it possibly my system qt 4.7.something is too new for common-qt? 07:15:41 possible* 07:16:11 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 07:16:16 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:16:53 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 07:16:59 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:17:35 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 07:17:40 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:18:17 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 07:18:19 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-123-167.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:18:19 -!- insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-123-167.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Changing host] 07:18:19 insomnia1alt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 07:18:22 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:18:36 ehu [~ehuels@109.32.109.247] has joined #lisp 07:18:58 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 07:19:03 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:19:40 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 07:19:45 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:20:22 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 07:21:33 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:21:33 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 07:22:24 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:23:21 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-18-14-252.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:24:22 Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:26:06 good morning everyone 07:27:33 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:32:54 -!- bieber [~quassel@162-78.97-97.tampabay.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:38:22 rgrinberg [~rudi@24.52.246.61] has joined #lisp 07:38:53 easyE [5s6hZxLd2F@panix2.panix.com] has joined #lisp 07:42:45 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.124.232] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:43:05 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.124.232] has joined #lisp 07:43:29 /home/mcstar/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/commonqt-20110522-git/libcommonqt.so: undefined symbol: _ZN5Smoke8classMapE. 07:43:46 anyway, this is my error what i get when i try to run a common-qt app from sbcl 07:44:22 it isnt very important, but if someone has an idea or two, pls share 07:44:23 lisper-weasel [~quassel@host133-226-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 07:45:12 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.233.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:45:44 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:45:59 xan_ [~xan@30.Red-79-150-223.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:48:53 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-207-226.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:51:05 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d86a152.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: benkard] 07:54:50 gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.113.35] has joined #lisp 07:56:44 Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.207.19] has joined #lisp 07:56:44 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.113.35] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:57:09 gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.113.35] has joined #lisp 07:57:46 eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has joined #lisp 07:57:48 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.113.35] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:58:17 Joreji [~thomas@94-036.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 07:59:12 triyo [c1090d66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.9.13.102] has joined #lisp 08:02:09 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@125.Red-80-39-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 08:02:19 I get a really strange error when attempting to compile a source file in SBCL: The function COMMON-LISP-USER::DESTRUC is undefined. 08:02:52 However DESTRUC function does exist and has been defined with defun 08:03:15 -!- twist [~twist@188.231.156.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:03:44 DESTRUC is being called from a macro I defined 08:05:10 are you in the same package? 08:05:13 twist [~twist@188.231.156.169] has joined #lisp 08:05:31 mcstar: yes, let me share the source code of it... 08:06:26 Its the On Lisp source code thingy :) ... Prolog chapter. 08:07:17 I created my own .lisp file and here it is: https://gist.github.com/1308565 08:07:50 Here are the error(s) and warnning(s) 08:08:24 https://gist.github.com/1308568 08:09:17 Here is the error line thats the couse: https://gist.github.com/1308568#L42 08:11:57 mcstar: any ideas what it might be? 08:12:16 moment 08:12:27 thx 08:16:42 well, after a quick look it looks a bit more complicated than it should be 08:17:18 its weird that dbind-ex uses macro sytax, but its actually a function 08:18:21 mcstar: yip I see what you meen about dbind-ex. I still don't though why `destruc` function is said to be undefined 08:18:36 how much did you test the code? 08:18:43 did you desing it bottom-up? 08:18:58 Its the On Lisp source code thingy :) ... Prolog chapter. 08:18:59 gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.113.35] has joined #lisp 08:19:12 so you didnt write it? 08:19:13 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.113.35] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:19:37 Meaning I followed all the text, understud what he meant and then copied the source from the code provided at the book site 08:19:48 yip I didn't right it 08:19:53 k 08:20:26 so is this supposed to be a prolog interpreter? 08:20:59 I can get it to work in emacs if I issue C-c C-k -> I get an error but it asks if it should proceed with the compile, if I say yes, then after another C-c C-k it compiles successfully. 08:21:36 yup, actually something closer to a Prolog compiler (minus the optimizer) 08:22:46 "I can get it to work in emacs if I issue C-c C-k -> I get an error but it asks if it should proceed with the compile, if I say yes, then after another C-c C-k it compiles successfully." -> having said this, it seems that `destruct` is not loaded when dbinf macro is macroexpanded... Thats my thought. 08:23:03 *dbinf = dbind 08:24:38 Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-210-136.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:25:45 i think you should make an asdf system out of it 08:25:55 and put this into a package 08:26:17 it help with these dependecy issues 08:26:50 -!- lisper-weasel [~quassel@host133-226-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:27:21 triyo: i did not read this whole discussion, but the problem is that your function is not available at macroexpansion time 08:27:24 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 08:27:49 jdz: Thanks, hence my comment earlier: "I can get it to work in emacs if I issue C-c C-k -> I get an error but it asks if it should proceed with the compile, if I say yes, then after another C-c C-k it compiles successfully." -> having said this, it seems that `destruct` is not loaded when dbinf macro is macroexpanded... Thats my thought. 08:27:51 triyo: either put the function definition in a file that is loadad before the file that uses the macro, or wrap the function definition in EVAL-WHEN 08:28:38 triyo: of course, specifying the right times the definition should be expanded, in your case probably all 3 of them 08:29:41 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.207.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:30:15 this thing is weird, many definitions appear before their use 08:30:26 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.194] has joined #lisp 08:30:37 this file wasnt meant to be loaded 08:31:01 mcstar: used at macroexpansion time is different than used at runtime 08:31:02 jdz: dont you think making an asdf system def help? 08:31:15 will help* 08:31:23 mcstar: not if the function definition and its use in macro are in the same file 08:33:00 -!- lnostdal_ [~Lars@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:34:24 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:34:33 lnostdal [~Lars@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 08:35:23 -!- xan_ [~xan@30.Red-79-150-223.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:35:32 jdz: actually, when i think of it, i meant to pull things apart, put them into packages, and load that with asdf, making a properly dependent system def file 08:35:36 -!- msxx [~msxxx@76.73.16.26] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC (Session timeout)] 08:35:41 maybe i wasnt clear 08:35:47 i dont want to put them into 1 file 08:36:19 jdz: thanks I just wrapped dbind-ex and destruc into (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) ...) Reason I took this root over separate file approach is that I am mealy trying to follow the ch24 Prolog of the On Lisp book. 08:36:36 but i still think this is the solution, asdf solves this problem as far as i see, it was desgined to do this 08:37:35 jdz: correct me if i am wrong, of course, im kind of a newbie 08:37:36 mcstar: the solution is understanding why it does not work, and then arrange so that it does work 08:37:49 -!- eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:37:49 -!- EyesIsServer [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:38:22 mcstar: i already said that if the function is in the same file as its use in macro ASDF will not help. 08:38:31 The On Lisp source code is outdated, hence this dialog. This is not the only part that doesn't compile form the book source code. Check this out: http://www.cliki.net/On%20Lisp 08:39:06 Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.207.19] has joined #lisp 08:40:32 jtza8_ [~jtza8@41.56.59.68] has joined #lisp 08:40:55 Martiini [~martin@88-196-141-145-dsl.rpl.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 08:42:23 eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has joined #lisp 08:43:28 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-207-226.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:47:10 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 08:48:53 jdz: how do you explain that? (if i load a file, and theres a function definition, which appears before its use in a macro, thats an error) 08:49:18 im just interested in this, it strikes me as weird, and i wonder why havent i run into this problem before 08:50:14 mcstar: probably because you never had this case. note that there is a difference between a function use in a macro and a function use in the macroexpansion. 08:50:52 i see, the function is used in an unquoted part of the macro 08:51:00 i.e. the building of the macro body 08:51:28 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75f2f8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:51:48 am i correct 08:51:50 ? 08:51:50 -!- X-Scale [email@89.180.159.219] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:52:56 no, i am wrong 08:52:57 hi 08:53:04 than i dont think i understand 08:54:55 -!- Joreji [~thomas@94-036.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:57:44 Amyn [~abennama@64.208.49.45] has joined #lisp 08:59:21 MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-28-52.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 09:01:15 if i pull out the relevant code, i cant reproduce the error 09:03:00 it just needs to be put in the correct order: destruc, dbind-ex, dbind 09:03:57 jdz: and i load 1 file, destruc is a function, debind-ex a function, dbind a macro 09:06:08 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:07:06 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:10:42 msxx [~msxx@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 09:10:44 hello. is there no parse-float or similar function in the standard lib? 09:10:49 c_arenz [~arenz@dialin-145-254-249-067.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:11:23 -!- triyo [c1090d66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.9.13.102] has quit [] 09:11:29 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@186.123.185.205] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:12:27 msxx: #'read-from-string 09:12:58 isn't that potentially unsafe? I'm getting string over web 09:14:12 there is a lib somewhere dealing with that 09:14:19 i.e. reading floats. 09:14:27 you didn't say that :) yes, I guess it would be (using #., see http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhf.htm). 09:15:07 hm, no, the one i had in mind does not do that 09:15:43 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.50.1] 09:15:54 maybe that: http://www.cliki.net/format-setf ? 09:15:57 I just googled a bit, and this seems to be safe? or not? 09:16:05 msxx: You can still use read-from-string if you bind *read-eval* to nil 09:16:14 yes that's what I was about to ask 09:16:35 (let ((*read-eval* nil)) (ignore-errors (read-from-string str))) 09:16:42 msxx: you can google for bese parse-float 09:16:48 and then use floatp 09:16:49 and find what you need (i think) 09:17:08 Neronus: is that all it takes to make the reader safe? 09:17:52 it fails on "#.(+ 1 2)" 09:17:56 returning nil 09:18:27 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@dialin-145-254-249-067.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:18:47 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 09:18:52 # 09:18:55 # 09:19:30 sorry :) #+#1=(#and #1#) ;; stack overflow in SBCL 09:19:50 akovalenko: and in many other lisps too 09:19:51 even with *read-eval* nil 09:19:53 ? 09:20:23 #+ , ## and #= don't depend on *read-eval* 09:20:36 akovalenko: you have to set *print-circle* to nil 09:20:54 EyesIsServer [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 09:22:03 ignore-errors handles it though :). (let ((*read-eval* nil)) (ignore-errors (read-from-string "#+#1=(#and #1#)"))) 09:22:31 -!- Martiini [~martin@88-196-141-145-dsl.rpl.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:23:19 prxq: how is it related? SBCL's stack overflows while it scans feature expression. *print-ANYTHING* doesn't matter 09:23:36 msxx: s/#and/and/ (that instance of # was a typo) 09:24:42 ah, stack overflows now 09:25:26 shame, it could handle all the literals lisp handles without parsing each one separately. 10e5 etc 09:25:51 msxx: ## and #= may be disabled in your readtable 09:26:03 why isn't ignore-errors catching it? 09:27:10 (subtypep 'storage-condition 'error) => NIL T ;; because it shouldn't ? 09:28:03 msxx: how about using cl-ppcre to simple remove everything execept [0-9edf.-]? should be fairly safe then. 09:28:29 nanoc [~conanhome@186.157.169.233] has joined #lisp 09:28:42 yes 09:28:49 hi fe[nl]ix 09:28:51 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 09:30:37 Martiini [~martin@88-196-141-145-dsl.rpl.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 09:31:18 francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has joined #lisp 09:32:15 c_arenz [~arenz@dialin-212-144-132-099.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:32:18 then i'd just use a regexp to find the float itself 09:32:41 eMBee: too bad you can't use a regexp to _parse_ 09:32:44 I found this piece of cl code in the rosetta code page and I tried it out: http://paste.lisp.org/display/125454 . It doesn't seem logical does it? (it's for the size of memory) 09:32:46 ..a float, too :) 09:34:00 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-29.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:35:39 gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:37:05 -!- Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:37:27 Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:40:09 -!- jtza8_ [~jtza8@41.56.59.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:41:05 *eMBee* akovalenko: true, but at least you can be sure that it's clean and then parse with the reader 09:41:30 francogrex: on which page did you find that? 09:46:06 cpape [~user@cpape.eu] has joined #lisp 09:47:30 lain_ [~lain@p5797AB92.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:49:32 Soulman [~knute@175.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:50:10 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@186.157.169.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:51:04 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.124.232] has quit [Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)] 09:51:15 _danb_ [~user@124-149-162-79.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:53:05 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:53:28 -!- DaDaDosPrompt [~DaDaDosPr@63-231-108-126.clsp.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: DaDaDosPrompt] 09:58:38 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.124.232] has joined #lisp 10:03:01 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.194] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 10:04:27 GeneralMaximus [~general@178.63.185.174] has joined #lisp 10:04:53 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:07:48 manuel_ [~manuel_@pD9FDE814.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:48 -!- gko [~gko@114-137-38-248.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:10:19 benkard [~benkard@138.246.23.212] has joined #lisp 10:11:49 nanoc [~conanhome@186.157.184.156] has joined #lisp 10:17:28 Brendan_T_ [~brendan@46.105.251.111] has joined #lisp 10:17:36 -!- Brendan_T [~brendan@46.105.251.111] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:17:50 -!- manuel_ [~manuel_@pD9FDE814.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: manuel_] 10:18:14 -!- Brendan_T_ is now known as Brendan_T 10:21:38 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@dialin-212-144-132-099.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:21:57 akovalen` [~anton@95.73.127.155] has joined #lisp 10:23:43 -!- akovalenko [~anton@95.73.216.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:24:22 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 10:24:37 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:24:55 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 10:25:52 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.194] has joined #lisp 10:26:05 -!- benkard [~benkard@138.246.23.212] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:26:13 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.207.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:26:55 benkard [~benkard@002608dc9535.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 10:28:19 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@186.157.184.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:29:25 -!- akovalen` is now known as akovalenko 10:31:43 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-149-162-79.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:31:56 -!- lain_ [~lain@p5797AB92.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:33:53 spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 10:41:57 nanoc [~conanhome@186.13.238.26] has joined #lisp 10:42:45 ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:44:18 benkard_ [~benkard@2001:4ca0:0:f208:a044:7e9d:bb1e:c612] has joined #lisp 10:48:37 is it possible to iterate through all the slots in a class? 10:48:50 -!- benkard [~benkard@002608dc9535.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:48:51 -!- benkard_ is now known as benkard 10:48:51 msxx: with (a)mop, yes 10:49:02 (class-slots) IIRC 10:49:16 what's a mop? 10:49:29 I don't have class-slots 10:51:14 the meta-object-protocol ... there's a library, closer-mop 10:52:56 it worked :) 10:52:57 thanks 10:53:11 is this portable? I did it in CCL 10:53:29 I use a couple of other implementations too so just wondering (can't test now) 10:53:49 the library should be portable AFAIK 10:54:01 that's the whole point of it, actually 10:54:12 thats the purpose of closer-mop AFAIK 10:54:21 ok nice 11:01:33 c_arenz [~arenz@dialin-212-144-131-136.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:04:50 Harag [~phil@dsl-243-0-141.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:06:24 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:07:10 -!- benkard [~benkard@2001:4ca0:0:f208:a044:7e9d:bb1e:c612] has quit [Quit: benkard] 11:08:12 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.164.18] has joined #lisp 11:08:12 _danb_ [~user@124-149-162-79.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:09:33 blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-43568cfa.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 11:12:28 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 11:12:50 ngz [~user@201.144.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 11:13:19 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-43568cfa.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:13:47 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.164.18] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:14:14 akovalenko: that seems like a bug 11:14:19 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.164.18] has joined #lisp 11:14:23 s/seems/looks/ 11:14:51 what does? 11:14:57 it may, howver, crash when it tries to print the result to the repl 11:15:27 H4ns [57bd7848@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.189.120.72] has joined #lisp 11:15:34 re 11:15:41 msxx: reading a circular list with that notation 11:15:51 hi H4ns! safe trip home? 11:16:52 akovalenko: and then it looks like a bug in the reader. Try (prog1 nil (read-from-string "")) 11:17:27 prxq: yeah. crammed into a very small klm economy seat, but on time and lossless :) 11:18:00 prxq: you too? i enjoyed amsterdam a lot, even though i spent most of the time inside 11:18:19 hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:19:04 H4ns: yes, uneventful train trip. I enjoyed a lot the meeting. Inside was ok with me due to the weather :-) 11:19:37 prxq: eh? wasnt the weather brilliant? 11:20:08 but cold 11:20:17 prxq: tsk! :) 11:20:52 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 11:20:53 Joreji [~thomas@94-036.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:20:55 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@dialin-212-144-131-136.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 11:21:45 hi antoszka! 11:22:21 prxq: Hi! 11:22:27 *antoszka* just got off the plane from Amsterdam. 11:22:34 H4ns: ya, I'm on the wrong continent 11:23:06 jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.59.68] has joined #lisp 11:25:41 -!- Joreji [~thomas@94-036.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:26:07 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 11:26:24 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.27.236] has joined #lisp 11:27:05 prxq: (prog1 nil ...) overflows here as well. I think it's a quality of implementation issue: SBCL could detect circularity here, but I'm not sure if it's required to do so 11:38:06 mobydick [~textual@124-171-178-61.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:42:37 akovalenko: seems to work here without glitch. What version are you using? 11:45:01 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:45:11 sbcl reads (prog1 nil (setf x (read-from-string "#1=(programmable . #1#)"))) reads without problems 11:45:44 H4ns: did you attend the teclo presentation? 11:45:46 prxq: 1.0.52 from debian wheezy. You obviously missed a point of #+#1=(and #1#) 11:45:55 prxq: #+ is important here 11:45:59 xan_ [~xan@30.Red-79-150-223.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:46:20 hypno: yeah, i saw all of them. 11:46:25 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:46:33 akovalenko: ah ok. DOS vulnerability 11:46:44 hypno: i had seen luke's presentation before, though, albeit in an earlier stage. 11:47:01 H4ns: ah. i have kind of a perverted interrest in what they are doing. did they add new stuff to the table? details? 11:47:41 -!- francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:48:04 hypno: they are now shipping their own, mobile optimized ip stack which handles 10gb/sec. it is written in c++, though. they use cl for the operating and management functionality. 11:48:18 well, and for development. 11:48:20 hypno: they still hire people, slowly. 11:49:23 good afternoon 11:49:53 H4ns: hold the horses! it's written in... c++?! 11:50:53 H4ns: i thought it was all CL basically, with some C for linux glue... what a let down. :( 11:51:11 hypno: yeah. in the end, it is just easier to deal with low-level functionality from c++ than from cl. they used the cl tcp stack to research what they actually needed and then rewrote that in c++ 11:51:13 the finite state machines are in C++ 11:51:24 nurv101 [~nurv101@2001:690:2100:2:4687:fcff:fe91:9c05] has joined #lisp 11:51:42 the ones that handtle the 20 gigabit traffic 11:52:20 the memory thing was particularily funny: as they need to buffer all tcp data until the mt acknowledges receipt, they feared that they'd need a lot of ram and asked their customers to supply the machines with 96gb 11:52:40 when running the system, they saw a peak memory usage of 100mb. 11:52:54 eheh.. 11:56:01 the issue seemed to be raw performance. Once they new what optimizations were needed, and figured it was still finite state machines, it became easier just to write it in C++. 11:56:40 I think he also mentioned that they worried about GC with the kind of throughput they where expecting 11:57:24 -!- Martiini [~martin@88-196-141-145-dsl.rpl.estpak.ee] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:59:06 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75f2f8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:59:38 yeah, makes sense... since they have a ton of excellent people i figured they might actually pull it off with cl... mostly why i've been waiting for pdf:s the last two days heh... but right tools for he job i guess... 11:59:40 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 12:00:59 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.27.236] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6-rc2] 12:02:17 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 12:04:34 do I have to loop through both the clos-mop:class-lsots and clos-mop:class-direct-slots to fetch slot-definition-name and slot-definition-readers? that seems odd 12:04:41 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.27.236] has joined #lisp 12:05:11 zyg [58833446@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.131.52.70] has joined #lisp 12:06:13 msxx: no. direct-slots are a subset of slots 12:06:25 I did something wrong then 12:06:25 nha [~prefect@5-74.104-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 12:06:26 the latter is including the inherited slots from parent classes. 12:07:08 you're right it works 12:07:27 Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:07:28 Anyone using clisp care to take a quick look at http://paste.lisp.org/+2OSW having stream problems. 12:07:47 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:07:55 hey guys, can someone pls explain to me how to install/setup SLIME on Ubuntu, from within SBCL? 12:07:57 been using closer-mop for 20 minutes and I'm loving it already 12:08:48 ? 12:08:48 zyg: bar does not use stream, intentional_ 12:09:21 mobydick do you have quicklisp 12:09:28 mobydick: (ql:quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper) and follow the instructions 12:09:42 k thanks guys 12:10:20 dlowe_lt [dlowe@nat/google/x-nmqiobdfeeimkdbx] has joined #lisp 12:11:15 H4ns: bug.. if correcting to "...format stream..." I still get the "cabd" output. 12:11:20 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.27.236] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6-rc2] 12:11:48 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.27.236] has joined #lisp 12:12:28 zyg: maybe isolate the problem more. i can't see what you expect and what you're trying to do from the source. 12:14:08 H4ns: I was expecting bar to behave like qux. Ie bar has disconnected from terminal-io, but qux doesnt (my best guess). 12:14:39 zyg: sorry, i don't follow. 12:15:34 zyg: if you could maybe describe what you want to do instead? and how it fails? 12:16:10 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:18:20 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 12:18:36 H4ns: I want to determine if qux is behaving wrong, when the output of qux without any stream parameter will output to terminal-io instead of standard-output. 12:19:31 -!- waveman [~tim@124.170.43.134] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:19:46 zyg: can you maybe isolate the problem to exactly that? 12:19:55 S1am [~guest@eth-209.20-homell.natm.ru] has joined #lisp 12:20:23 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:20:54 H4ns: I can try, what form can I use to capture terminal-io without "disturbing" qux? 12:21:08 zyg: qux? foo? 12:21:26 H4ns: I'm refering to the paste 12:22:10 zyg: try to distill your problem into a _sentence_. 12:25:28 -!- mobydick [~textual@124-171-178-61.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 12:27:32 H4ns: yes.. I think I got a distilled version in a new annotation. Why is result not {ab}? 12:30:28 zyg: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/26_glo_s.htm#stream_designator 12:31:14 zyg: vs. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_format.htm 12:34:20 _6502_ [58959a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.154.87] has joined #lisp 12:34:25 H4ns: shouldn't format and write-char behave equally? is format doing wrong to output on standard-output? 12:34:49 zyg: i'm not sure, but i'd say it is at least confusing. 12:35:46 zyg: it seems to be the standard behavior, though. acl also interprets t as stream designator meaning *terminal-io* when used with write-char, and as *standard-output* when used with format. 12:36:08 H4ns: well according to the url's you've given I shouldn't rely on any "decoupling" of 't' from terminal-io to standard-output? 12:37:07 zyg: until someone who understands the spec better than myself explains what's going on, i'd not use t as stream designator in write*, as that seems to be inconsistent with format 12:37:32 Vivitron [~user@pool-108-7-56-243.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:37:53 zyg: write* default to "standard output" (probably *standard-output*), so there is no need to pass t anyway. 12:40:22 silenius [~silenius@i59F7321A.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:40:59 H4ns: thanks for the help. Yes I'll make sure not to pass 't' to write* 12:46:17 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-kfhccrcpsddvrftp] has joined #lisp 12:49:16 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 12:51:56 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 12:54:50 am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has joined #lisp 12:54:59 coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:55:08 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:55:42 coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:00 -!- alanpearce [~alan@home.alanpearce.co.uk] has quit [Quit: alanpearce] 13:07:12 -!- zyg [58833446@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.131.52.70] has left #lisp 13:09:32 Athas` [~athas@fw.math.ku.dk] has joined #lisp 13:11:11 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:11:50 -!- Athas` is now known as Athas 13:12:33 -!- gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:13:42 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:14:40 Frankly, I'm horrified with myself: http://paste.lisp.org/display/125457 13:15:56 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 13:16:22 CaZe_ [~yrt@unaffiliated/y354c] has joined #lisp 13:16:33 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189-38-236-217.static-corp.ajato.com.br] has joined #lisp 13:17:47 -!- djanatyn [~user@173-13-139-236-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:17:49 -!- CaZe [~yrt@unaffiliated/y354c] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:17:49 -!- CaZe_ is now known as CaZe 13:20:41 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:22:11 djanatyn [~user@173-13-139-236-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:22:12 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:23:34 lain_ [~lain@p5797AB92.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:24:43 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:29:23 -!- djanatyn [~user@173-13-139-236-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:31:44 benkard [~benkard@141.84.69.67] has joined #lisp 13:32:58 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:33:33 -!- Brendan_T [~brendan@46.105.251.111] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:34:00 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:39:35 -!- redline6561_nop is now known as redline6561 13:40:54 nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:01 G'morning all. 13:42:23 nyef: hi 13:42:27 just got back from amsterdam, it was a really nice weekend 13:43:21 galdor: Will we be reading about your Amsterdam experience on planet lisp? 13:43:47 djanatyn [~user@173-13-139-236-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:18 perhaps today or tomorrow, but I have to insist on the 'perhaps', I don't have a lot to tell 13:44:44 I also need to generate a rss field on codemore.org and submit it to planet lisp 13:44:55 <_6502_> galdor: yo :-) 13:45:10 <_6502_> galdor: i'm back to my C++ hell 13:45:24 -!- H4ns [57bd7848@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.189.120.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:45:34 hey hi _6502_ 13:45:39 c'est la vie 13:45:46 tomorrow I'll be back to C, so 13:47:44 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 13:48:00 *nyef* is back to Objective-C in a few minutes. 13:48:28 *ehu* is back to data warehousing (and lisping) 13:49:48 <_6502_> https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-zWpEyUIIHgM/TqT9dfHwwVI/AAAAAAAAAXY/JxCEtzC6LtE/h301/IMG_20111022_152138.jpg 13:49:52 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.194] has quit [Quit: Offline] 13:50:06 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-xfwlshloebtciapv] has quit [Quit: gone] 13:50:19 <_6502_> new lisp logo after eclm2011 13:52:17 leo2007 [~leo@123.123.254.253] has joined #lisp 13:58:05 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.60] has joined #lisp 13:58:06 <_6502_> "... is able to optimize developed algorithm using profiling tools like gdb." 13:58:12 <_6502_> since when gdb become a profiling tool ? 13:58:37 -!- djanatyn [~user@173-13-139-236-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:58:42 There's probably some way to abuse it as a profiler. 13:58:59 ... wait, didn't we see that recently? "Poor man's profiler" or something like that? 13:59:36 H4ns [5b3d5bd3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.61.91.211] has joined #lisp 13:59:41 is there a standard function that will turn an absolute pathname into a relative pathname with respect to another absolute pathname? 13:59:53 *_6502_* hates pathnames 14:00:01 you set a breakpoint and then see how many times you have to press continue 14:00:09 how do i write the data collected with babel-streams:with-output-to-sequence to a file? i can't figure it out 14:00:20 eMBee: write-sequence? 14:00:33 -!- p_l|amsterdam is now known as p_l 14:00:53 write-sequence is what i tried but it complains that the file i open is not a sequence 14:00:56 H4ns: Nothing leaps out at me, but you could probably construct one easily enough. 14:01:14 *_6502_* hates pathnames and loves oprofile 14:01:19 djanatyn [~user@173-13-139-236-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:21 nyef: sure, but i'd hate to replicate standard functionality 14:01:33 _6502_: i like pathnames. 14:01:54 # 14:02:17 is not of type SEQUENCE 14:02:29 cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.233.252] has joined #lisp 14:02:34 eMBee: are you sure that you got the arguments in the right order? 14:03:14 <_6502_> every multi-argument function should only accept keyword arguments 14:03:27 I hate FP traps. Almost as much as I hate not having FP traps. 14:04:37 H4ns: enough-namestring, but that works on namestrings 14:04:53 *returns that is 14:05:11 jdz: does it turn absolute paths into relative ones? not to my observation, but i could be missing something 14:05:31 H4ns: it returns enough-namesting relative to the given pathname 14:05:33 rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-206-233.uio.no] has joined #lisp 14:05:36 jdz: i want (relativize-pathname "/etc/passwd" "/etc/init.d/foo") => "../passwd" 14:05:41 H4ns: not really sure, hold on what i wated was for: (with-open-file (output "/tmp/foo" :direction :output :if-exists :supersede :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)) (write-sequence message output)) 14:05:57 s/wated/pasted/ 14:05:59 H4ns: enough-namesting? 14:06:15 nope, that doesn't work then 14:06:30 eMBee: looks proper. no idea. 14:06:38 H4ns: oh, that's different indeed 14:06:42 wrong paste, let me put that in a pastebin 14:07:34 juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 14:08:43 does CL know about ".." anyway? 14:08:49 yes 14:09:56 _6502_: lol, the statue from that mushroom-orieted shop? :D 14:11:34 <_6502_> p_l: yup... what a stoned alien would look like in amsterdam :-D 14:11:47 -!- dlowe_lt [dlowe@nat/google/x-nmqiobdfeeimkdbx] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:12:02 -!- djanatyn [~user@173-13-139-236-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:12:31 _6502_: given the other use of the word "alien", I'm betting the coffee shops are full of them 14:12:49 <_6502_> yes indeed 14:13:06 I was asked yesterday why go to Amsterdam if I didn't go to coffee shop -_-' 14:13:31 hmm, i always thought :up is a "valid pathname directory" according to the spec, but looks like it falls under "other object defined by the implementation" 14:13:37 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@186.13.238.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:13:39 <_6502_> I'm expecting that question too... or why I didn't visit the red light district 14:13:53 _6502_: you were in the guided trip, right? 14:13:59 <_6502_> no :-( 14:14:01 ah 14:14:06 pity 14:14:13 the guide was awesome 14:14:21 jdz: for my purposes, "../" is good enough 14:14:25 (and yes, it did include RLD) 14:14:43 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.27.236] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:14:52 http://paste.lisp.org/display/125458 14:14:57 well, it probably is the case that i'm looking in the wrong place in the spec 14:15:34 -!- scode [~scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [Quit: brb] 14:15:42 eMBee: message does not seem to be a sequence 14:15:59 eMBee: ah, no, forget that. 14:16:18 well, i had that impression too 14:16:36 eMBee: you are trying to use message both as sequence and as stream 14:16:39 <_6502_> eMBee: http://lispdoc.com/?q=stream-write-sequence 14:16:39 brb - time to grab the funds off the account before all transaction fees catch up with me 14:16:54 <_6502_> looks like the stream is the first parameter, not the second 14:17:05 eMBee: i think that with-output-to-sequence returns the sequence. 14:18:01 H4ns: oh, found it: section 19.2.2.4.3 14:18:29 actually, that's for Neronus too 14:18:36 jdz: thanks :) 14:19:05 jdz: Noted. Thanks :) 14:20:23 Neronus: the funny thing is that there is both :up and :back 14:20:31 for .. 14:20:36 yup, syntactic vs semantic :) 14:22:55 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-149-162-79.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:23:00 scode [~scode@pollux.scode.org] has joined #lisp 14:23:37 H4ns: yes, looks like it, weird to havre the arguments reversed. still doesn't wotk though. get a different problem 14:24:05 eMBee: you cannot use message as a sequence 14:24:20 drdo`` [~drdo@85.207.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 14:24:22 eMBee: the with-o-t-s form RETURNS the sequence 14:25:19 -!- _6502_ [58959a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.154.87] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:25:31 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 14:25:38 so how do i use it? 14:26:05 eMBee: you bind a variable to it, or you just use the with-o-t-s form itself as function argument. 14:26:26 -!- BrianRice [~water@174-31-153-63.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 14:26:49 message isn't that variable? 14:27:08 oh, i know what you mean 14:27:12 -!- drdo` [~drdo@85.207.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:27:18 BrianRice [~water@174-31-153-63.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:56 Kron [~Kron@129-97-120-252.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 14:28:03 w-o-t-s binds the variable to a string-stream, surely? 14:28:14 dlowe_lt [~dlowe@50-77-31-237-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:22 -!- Kron is now known as Guest6820 14:31:42 i need to do this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/125458#1 14:32:15 eMBee: your indentation is wrong 14:32:41 -!- dlowe_lt [~dlowe@50-77-31-237-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:32:55 yes, sorry, forgot to run the indenter after editing 14:33:36 eMBee: if you need to "run the indenter", you're doing it wrong. 14:33:41 dlowe_lt [dlowe@nat/google/x-mobrwjmjjyghunjf] has joined #lisp 14:34:10 vim doesn't automatically reindent if i edit lines 14:34:21 eMBee: then vim is bad for editing lisp code. 14:34:29 then use an editor that actually helps you edit code 14:35:13 or make vim not be so dumb 14:35:18 there is probably a configuration setting i need to change 14:35:49 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:36:07 vim does autoindent if i write new lines, very nicely, but if i copy paste lines around it doesn't 14:36:55 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.233] has joined #lisp 14:37:36 dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 14:37:55 a worse problem is that slimv throws the repl output away if there are errors 14:38:11 eMBee: emacs + slime work very well. 14:38:13 I'm pretty sure there's a way in vim to indent a region 14:38:14 nanoc [~conanhome@186.157.175.246] has joined #lisp 14:38:29 -!- benkard [~benkard@141.84.69.67] has quit [Quit: benkard] 14:39:29 dlowe_lt: there is, i use it all the time, what i don't know is if there is an automatic application of that ,instead of typing =} or ={ to indent the current paragraph 14:40:20 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-129-90.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:44:01 bieber [~quassel@162-78.97-97.tampabay.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:45:25 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 14:45:30 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-129-90.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:46:42 benkard [~benkard@141.84.69.67] has joined #lisp 14:48:36 angavrilov_ [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 14:49:01 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:49:38 replore [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:50:12 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:21 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.157] has joined #lisp 14:53:16 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:53:17 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.60] has quit [Quit: Offline] 14:57:43 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.60] has joined #lisp 14:58:43 djanatyn [~user@173-13-139-236-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:58 H4ns: enough-namestring might do what you want. 14:59:15 rtoym: ah, really? let me try again 14:59:20 haha, history repeating 14:59:43 rtoym: well, no. i don't think so. 15:00:18 H4ns: No? Well, I guess I didn't really understand what you wanted. 15:00:18 rtoym: i always want a relative pathname 15:00:36 rtoy: i want (relativize-pathname "/etc/passwd" "/etc/init.d/foo") => "../passwd" 15:01:44 Ah, ok. Yeah, enough-namestring won't do that. 15:02:21 but it really does not sound complicated 15:02:25 (Although, I don't understand the result of that example.) 15:03:01 rtoym: maybe (relativize-pathname "/etc/passwd" "/etc/init.d/") => "../passwd" would be clearer 15:03:21 jdz: it is not complicated, and i'm already done with it. 15:04:12 http://paste.lisp.org/display/125460 15:04:17 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:04:26 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 15:04:48 gah, bad docstring 15:05:50 H4ns: Ok. That's a bit clearer. foo is not a directory. 15:05:59 In the paste, what is enough-pathname? 15:06:17 rtoym: hm, an acl extension maybe? let me see. 15:06:48 clisp seems to loose connection to slime after entering the debug loop - ideas? 15:06:52 seems like it. enough-namestring should be good, too. 15:06:54 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 15:07:07 and btw: what's the name of the function that appends elements to a list (as opposed to append, which appends lists) 15:07:15 hi 15:07:18 Tasser: The first one that comes to mind is "don't use clisp", but that might not help you. 15:07:22 make-vector doesn't exist? 15:07:41 hakzsam: It's a special-case of MAKE-ARRAY. 15:07:54 H4ns: Yep. enough-pathname is enough-namestring, but returns a pathname. 15:08:01 hakzsam: If you make an array with only one dimension, you get a vector. 15:08:25 thanks 15:08:34 nyef, why not? 15:08:50 after i am done writing a bunch of data to the babel-streams stream i need to write the length of the stream at the beginning. can i do that? or do i need to create a second stream? 15:09:12 Tasser: Well, the obvious reason would be that the slime connection seems to go away when it enters the debug loop. :-P 15:09:21 rtoym: ok, does not matter for me here, corrected in the paste 15:09:37 Tasser: But we could go on from there, about things that may well have been fixed since the last time I tried to use clisp for anything. 15:10:19 (Little things, like the names of parameters in arglist hinting.) 15:10:20 and I want to append some symbols into a vector, how can I do that ? 15:10:35 clisp and slime seems to work well for me, even if I get to the debugger. 15:10:37 eMBee: you could try file-position 15:10:39 hakzsam: vector-push-extend, maybe? 15:11:00 rtoym: You don't use CMUCL exclusively? 15:11:01 eMBee: at that point (when the only thing left is to write a data size) I'd work directly on sequence instead of stream 15:11:20 -!- pnathan [~Adium@76.178.165.160] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:11:29 nyef: setting file-position is impossible for babel streams, iir 15:11:33 *iirc. 15:11:35 nyef: Yes, but I do use others on occassion for testing. 15:11:55 -!- Athas [~athas@fw.math.ku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:13:59 akovalenko: Ah, the "all abstractions leak" phenomenon strikes again. 15:14:06 nyef, what do you use with slime? 15:14:18 Tasser: I use SBCL almost exclusively. 15:15:04 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 15:15:05 ok, i'll try that then, thanks 15:15:34 Tasser: Admittedly, that may not be the best choice on some platforms, but it usually works for me. 15:16:05 msxx: "01:57:49 hello. is there no parse-float or similar function in the standard lib?" <-- There's the parse-number library (though I haven't tried it). It's in Quicklisp, as shown by (ql:system-apropos "number"), so do (ql:quickload "parse-number"). 15:17:39 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189-38-236-217.static-corp.ajato.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:20:07 (read ...) also works. :) 15:20:33 History repeats again :) 15:21:16 waltwhite [~waltwhite@113-9-190-109.dsl.ovh.fr] has joined #lisp 15:21:36 "History doesn't always repeat itself. Sometimes it screams 'why aren't you paying attention?!?' and lets fly with a rock." 15:22:00 -!- Guest6820 [~Kron@129-97-120-252.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:22:37 (read-from-string "#+#1=(#and #1#)") is unsafe because of stack overflow. At minimum you have to bind *read-eval* to nil 15:23:21 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 15:23:27 courtesy of akovalenko 15:23:31 Neronus: No, it should die with a read error trying to parse the literal array. 15:24:08 Neronus: *read-eval* won't help with reader conditionals (extra # was a typo, btw) 15:24:19 And no, *read-eval* really doesn't help there. 15:24:49 kinda silly that the functionality to parse a float must exist in an implementation, yet there's no access to it 15:25:00 I'm aware that that doesn't help. But binding read eval at least avoid the trivial #. :) 15:25:42 -!- sellout- [~Adium@12.232.236.2] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:25:46 could probably make a trivial-parse-number that hooked into whatever internal function READ uses in its implementation 15:26:00 -!- djanatyn [~user@173-13-139-236-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:26:21 dlowe_lt: i kind of believe that you're a bit too optimistic here. 15:27:12 djanatyn [~user@173-13-139-236-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:27 H4ns: maybe. I haven't looked at the code of any readers 15:27:27 dlowe_lt: but i'll gladly stand corrected! 15:27:53 I think the subject should be updated to ABCL 1.0.0 ... 15:28:11 though right now I'm totally infatuated with SMUG 15:28:35 Hah, damn, I missed pnathan by just a few minutes :/ I[t] took 5 minutes of my time to solve his GETHASH "problem": http://paste.lisp.org/display/125461 Of course minion is dead so I can't leave him (pnathan) a notification, but if someone sees him please forward the message. 15:28:48 -!- doritos [~joshua@c-76-118-155-244.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:28:49 so what's the deal with minion? is it coming back? 15:30:01 At some point, I expect I'll get to hacking it back into shape. 15:30:29 Right now, though, I'm trying to hack some parts of SBCL into shape. 15:31:01 what was wrong with the previous shape? 15:31:15 I've written a couple of CL irc bots 15:31:27 Previous shape of which, SBCL or minion? 15:31:54 Kron [~Kron@129-97-120-252.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 15:32:14 minion historically couldn't detect when it had been disconnected, and currently chokes horribly when someone leaves a channel. 15:32:20 -!- Kron is now known as Guest78001 15:32:31 And I can't build a 32-bit SBCL on my MBP. 15:32:33 I meant minion 15:32:57 brb 15:33:00 -!- dlowe_lt [dlowe@nat/google/x-mobrwjmjjyghunjf] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:33:06 sellout- [~Adium@conference/djangocon/x-yxkjybuoabdscxxg] has joined #lisp 15:33:41 -!- sellout- [~Adium@conference/djangocon/x-yxkjybuoabdscxxg] has quit [Client Quit] 15:33:46 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 15:35:57 -!- am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:42:05 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:45:55 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 259 seconds] 15:50:10 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:51:00 dlowe [dlowe@nat/google/x-osimmvfpbhkdrjrk] has joined #lisp 15:52:51 nyef: is the current source for minion up somewhere? 15:53:40 do you know some good tutorials about vectors and arrays in lisp, please? 15:53:49 -!- rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-206-233.uio.no] has quit [Quit: Client exciting.] 15:54:54 dlowe: I'm not sure. Obviously, if you have access to the appropriate clnet account you have access to the current source, but I don't know if it's publicly available. 15:55:32 AFAICT, it's running on a lightly-hacked version of relatively-current cl-irc. 15:55:44 And the light hacks appear to be in the bot code only. 15:56:11 peterhil [~peterhil@193-64-22-205-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #lisp 15:56:24 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.123.254.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:56:34 How about this, I'll consider fussing with it over the next SBCL freeze period. 15:56:48 -!- xan_ [~xan@30.Red-79-150-223.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:57:30 Joreji [~thomas@87-036.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:58:15 francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has joined #lisp 15:58:35 fmeyer [~fmeyer@c9518027.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 16:00:31 Davidbrcz_ [~david@ANantes-151-1-48-19.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:01:31 if I do (room) then (defparameter x 1000000) and then (room) again, will the difference in dynamic objects (space total.) be the memory size of x or are there gc that has to be called 16:01:33 ? 16:02:50 francogrex: not necessary (any allocation could trigger automatic GC and result in "negative" space total increment 16:03:05 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 16:03:25 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-210-136.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:03:29 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:06:00 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.164.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:06:11 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.233] has joined #lisp 16:07:28 akovalenko: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Variable_size/Get#Common_Lisp is not correct then? 16:08:09 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@c-67-180-54-112.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:09:01 Guthur [~user@212.183.140.53] has joined #lisp 16:09:14 gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:09:53 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.60] has quit [Quit: Offline] 16:09:57 francogrex: "A robust though non-automatic way" -- it means that you look at (room) output and apply common sense, and then it's safe :) 16:10:26 -!- akovalenko [~anton@95.73.127.155] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:10:43 -!- Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: cya] 16:12:16 -!- ehu changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: ABCL 1.0.0, SBCL 1.0.52, usocket 0.5.4, anaphora 0.9.4, SBCL officially in Git, slime-indentation changes in CVS 16:12:46 Neronus: done 16:13:35 akovalenko [~anton@95.73.127.155] has joined #lisp 16:14:35 nyef: sure. I was just seeing if you wanted someone else to fuss over it 16:15:36 why I got a warning with this code http://paste.lisp.org/display/125463 ? 16:16:00 -!- silenius [~silenius@i59F7321A.versanet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:16:18 ehu: thanks :) 16:16:25 coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:40 "being the elements of"? is that a real loop construct? 16:17:12 mmh... 16:17:17 I don't think, indeed 16:17:18 Almost sounds right. 16:17:21 oh, it's sbcl specific 16:17:29 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-72-43-20-246.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:17:29 wacky 16:17:58 antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-2925098489.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:18:07 maybe, but I don't understand why I have a warning with that 16:18:07 hakzsam: (loop for i from 0 for j across array do ...) 16:18:44 hakzsam: What warning, J not being used? 16:18:52 -!- francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:19:45 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@c9518027.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:20:23 Qworkescence [~quad@71-212-169-133.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:25 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@71-212-169-133.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:20:25 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 16:20:30 nyef, I still have the warning when j is used... 16:20:47 coyo [~unf@pool-71-164-173-28.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:47 -!- coyo [~unf@pool-71-164-173-28.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:20:47 coyo [~unf@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 16:21:02 But J isn't used in the code you pasted. 16:21:11 Oh. 16:21:12 Heh. 16:21:23 Simple loop, and undefined function FOR ? 16:21:36 nyef, got it 16:21:38 thanks :] 16:21:40 Really would help to know what warning you're seeing. 16:21:45 I'm sorry... 16:22:41 Don't be sorry, just do better next time. 16:22:48 Help us to help you. 16:22:51 jtza8_ [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-106-139.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:24:01 yes, I *must* read my code before submit it on pastelisp 16:24:07 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl21-86-27.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 16:25:19 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.59.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:27:35 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:27:55 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: away!] 16:28:53 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:29:25 milanj [~milanj_@109-93-193-219.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 16:30:31 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-051-142.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:42 -!- S1am [~guest@eth-209.20-homell.natm.ru] has quit [] 16:31:26 mathrick [~mathrick@83.1.168.198] has joined #lisp 16:31:28 -!- angavrilov_ [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:31:30 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.32.109.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:32:21 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189-38-236-217.static-corp.ajato.com.br] has joined #lisp 16:33:49 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:35:12 jdz [~jdz@host131-106-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:35:30 sellout- [~Adium@conference/djangocon/x-llgsknxdvaahhqjt] has joined #lisp 16:39:33 -!- Amyn [~abennama@64.208.49.45] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:41:52 angavrilov_ [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 16:42:13 pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has joined #lisp 16:42:18 -!- H4ns [5b3d5bd3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.61.91.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:42:21 are there other people playing with http://aichallenge.org ? 16:42:23 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 16:42:29 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.239] has joined #lisp 16:43:40 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:43:44 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 16:46:29 tritchey [~tritchey@108.60.121.114] has joined #lisp 16:51:24 dmiles [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 16:51:40 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:52:28 coderdad [~coderdad@ip-64-134-146-96.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:14 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:57:03 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-051-142.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:57:37 FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 17:00:31 -!- spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Quit: spacefrogg] 17:01:13 ska` [~user@ppp-58-8-53-102.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 17:01:18 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp3702.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 17:06:16 yes 17:06:20 over 3000 users 17:06:35 just head over to #aichallenge 17:08:45 well I meant using Common Lisp 17:09:32 -!- msxx [~msxx@76.73.16.26] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC (Session timeout)] 17:15:09 batolo123 [~batolo123@host67-242-static.25-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:15:16 ciao 17:15:33 !list 17:15:38 -!- batolo123 [~batolo123@host67-242-static.25-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has left #lisp 17:16:46 -!- Joreji [~thomas@87-036.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:17:33 galdor: +1 17:17:35 -!- nullman` [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:21:41 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-kfhccrcpsddvrftp] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:23:44 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 17:24:25 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 17:26:39 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:26:40 -!- gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:26:57 Is this useful, stupid, obviated by some existing functionality, or what? http://paste.lisp.org/display/125468 17:27:44 You could also just have a make-foo function. 17:28:15 Isn't there also ALLOCATE-INSTANCE? 17:28:19 -!- Guest78001 [~Kron@129-97-120-252.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:28:42 nyef: I think that might be too late for some arglist processing. 17:28:49 Might be, I suppose. 17:29:24 Singletons are typically a broken idea anyway, and if you're doing caching/lookup you probably want something on the order of ENSURE-*, FIND-*, or similar. 17:29:25 pkhuong: Yeah, but (assuming something like this was part of the language spec), it could be used for everything in place of make-instance in normal usage. 17:30:00 -!- pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:30:11 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 17:30:18 nyef: Yeah, I currently do ENSURE-*, but I want the user to not have to be aware of the "right" way to get the object. 17:30:38 The user ALWAYS has to be aware of the "right" way to get an object. 17:30:53 Just popped into my head during the Dart talk on built-in factory support. 17:30:59 -!- lain_ [~lain@p5797AB92.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:30:59 nyef: Why? 17:31:49 Because it's part of the public interface. 17:33:55 tsuru [~charlie@adsl-74-179-28-14.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:19 nyef: You mean MAKE-INSTANCE or *SINGLETON-INSTANCE* is part of the interface, or the idea that you're allocating an instance vs retrieving an existing instance is part of the interface? 17:34:37 Yes! 17:34:37 sellout: hide make-instance and expose only make-foo. 17:34:53 Consider +NOWHERE+ as a CLIM region. 17:35:37 That's a singleton, and it's possible to implement it properly (though McCLIM doesn't, AFAIK). 17:36:20 (also, I agree with the singleton problems, just easier example than ENSURE-*) 17:36:55 you have to normalize regions after every operation, right? 17:37:02 (been a while since I last looked at that) 17:37:19 antifuchs: I think you might, although it's been a while for me as well. 17:37:24 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.140.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:37:30 But the point is that +NOWHERE+ is stateless. 17:37:31 However  I guess ENSURE-* is a better illustration, since with singletons, it's often important to know that you have _the_ instance. 17:37:39 pkhuong: sorry, what do you mean by 'hide make-instance'? how can you do that? 17:37:47 It's also supposed to be a constant. 17:38:43 felideon: don't export the class name? (: 17:38:46 felideon: if you don't export the symbol naming your class, isn't that a kind of "hiding"? 17:38:51 sellout: Okay, how about the example of a GUID class? Does that fit the sort of thing you want? 17:39:15 antifuchs is here, so we can have balanced smileys :) 17:39:17 You can't reasonably not export a class name, because people will want to dispatch on it. 17:39:28 yay (: 17:39:35 felideon: you hide it by telling people not to use it. 17:39:49 nyef: you can export an uninstantiable superclass (: 17:39:50 nyef: well, there are tricks with "virtual" base classes and/or deftype ;) 17:39:53 What you can do is export an "abstract" class name, and not export the actual implementation class. 17:39:55 nyef: C++ people would export an abstract base class :) 17:39:58 pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has joined #lisp 17:40:04 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:04 felideon: You can specialize on your class to error (unless some :singleton-p arg is passed, so you can create your singleton.) 17:40:07 antifuchs, akovalenko: ok that's what I figured, but nyef's reasoning was similar to mine. 17:40:32 (as far as dispatching) 17:41:23 you can also decide whether or not it makes sense to export the type up for dispatching. 17:42:00 (unwinding to the original subject) and I can't imagine a less intuitive interface to singleton than MAKE-INSTANCE which doesn't make instances :) 17:42:19 If you have a singleton, a true singleton, export a constant. 17:42:48 (A true constant, no less. MAKE-LOAD-FORM is a wonderful thing.) 17:43:04 and for the Most True singleton, unintern the class name :) 17:43:21 akovalenko: I don't think anyone proposed MAKE-INSTANCE return a singleton. 17:43:46 Maybe if I called it ENSURE-INSTANCE instead of ISSUE-INSTANCE  17:44:27 We'd still object. Half or more of the time you're going to want a BOA constructor anyway. 17:45:51 nyef: Interesting. I never use BOAs. 17:46:18 *ilmari* finds boas a bit constricting 17:46:21 SCNR 17:46:32 ilmari: you win the internets today 17:47:27 now there's a constructive argument 17:51:18 -!- ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 17:51:43 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:52:19 Cloud__ [~cbolano@189.227.216.215] has joined #lisp 17:52:24 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-81.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:54:23 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.233.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:54:34 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@ip-64-134-146-96.public.wayport.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:57:36 -!- djanatyn [~user@173-13-139-236-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:57:50 barryfm [~barryfm@fl-71-2-134-179.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:23 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 18:00:13 -!- jdz [~jdz@host131-106-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:01:06 -!- SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:02:55 -!- waltwhite [~waltwhite@113-9-190-109.dsl.ovh.fr] has quit [Quit: waltwhite] 18:06:08 pferor` [~user@172.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:07:52 -!- pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:07:58 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 18:08:44 djanatyn [~user@173-13-139-236-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:24 -!- barryfm [~barryfm@fl-71-2-134-179.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has left #lisp 18:14:48 pferor`` [~user@72.233.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:15:31 coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:37 Martiini [~martin@88-196-141-145-dsl.rpl.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 18:16:56 -!- pferor` [~user@172.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:20:23 replore_ [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:22:09 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!] 18:23:09 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@186.157.175.246] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:24:22 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:25:24 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-036-168.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:28 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:41 Soulman1 [~knute@175.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:29:36 -!- ngz [~user@201.144.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:31:06 -!- Soulman [~knute@175.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:32:56 -!- djanatyn [~user@173-13-139-236-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:33:34 -!- mcstar [~mcstar@adsl-89-134-9-168.monradsl.monornet.hu] has left #lisp 18:35:12 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:35:19 urandom__ [~user@p548A368D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:07 ak70 [~user@c79-102.i07-20.onvol.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:51 nanoc [~conanhome@186.123.185.73] has joined #lisp 18:42:26 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-036-168.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:45:46 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 18:46:07 djanatyn [~user@173-13-139-236-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:46 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.239] has quit [Quit: Offline] 18:51:08 rpg [~rpg@63-229-199-194.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:03 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:52:28 -!- FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has quit [Quit: 1/0] 18:53:22 -!- sellout [~Adium@conference/djangocon/x-llgsknxdvaahhqjt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:53:24 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.233] has joined #lisp 18:54:58 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-056-018.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:09 -!- tsuru [~charlie@adsl-74-179-28-14.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:56:02 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@108.60.121.114] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 18:56:22 tsuru [~charlie@adsl-74-179-19-221.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:34 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.60] has joined #lisp 18:56:36 -!- nha [~prefect@5-74.104-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:56:58 sellout- [~Adium@12.232.236.2] has joined #lisp 19:09:22 -!- vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-oznttmxjdyyiixcd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:11:10 -!- nurv101 [~nurv101@2001:690:2100:2:4687:fcff:fe91:9c05] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:13:04 Younder [~john@49.157.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:13:27 bye all 19:14:04 Zeus around? 19:14:19 -!- hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has left #lisp 19:15:21 -!- Cloud__ [~cbolano@189.227.216.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:16:03 -!- litte-green [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:16:07 Anyhow menifex's old scheme is back on comp.lang.lisp 19:16:28 new to al lot of people I see 19:17:22 He has not created a AI mind.. 19:17:52 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75f2f8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:13 hi 19:18:47 -!- antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-2925098489.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:18:48 Hello prxq. 19:20:17 hi nyef 19:20:30 antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-2925098489.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:20:39 I have a couple of files with the following at the top ;;;; -*- Mode: Lisp; Syntax: Common-Lisp; Package: GECO -*- 19:21:05 makes emacs ask me strange things. 19:21:13 I bet. 19:21:14 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-129-90.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:21:23 Old LispM source files? 19:21:35 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-129-90.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:21:39 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:22:15 nyef: i don't know the full history of the files. But they compile, and the tests (used to) run fine. 19:22:40 Mmm. It's just emacs being weird? 19:22:45 what's more reasonable nowadays? Just delete it? 19:23:30 recommend this one.. Packages is a tricky one. www.flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf 19:23:38 prxq: they're just comments for emacs. 19:23:40 I don't know. I've just been telling emacs to ignore the whatever-it-is each time it comes up, since it only tends to happen with CLX for me. 19:23:55 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:24:09 "The local variables lists contains values that may not be safe blah blah blah y, n, !" 19:24:17 vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-mgjzwqvpctcrhhhd] has joined #lisp 19:24:18 The old LispMs at least used to have some hook in LOAD to parse such comments and do something with them. 19:24:39 rpg_ [~rpg@63-229-199-194.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:11 I think I'll just delete these lines. 19:25:14 prxq, SBCL is overy paranoid andswer y to all of it 19:25:45 -!- rpg_ [~rpg@63-229-199-194.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:26:17 what I wonder is if there is any reason to leave them in, in particular if someone else is going to use this. 19:26:53 That's what I wonder as well. "Is this important to anyone?" 19:28:13 -!- rpg [~rpg@63-229-199-194.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:29:09 pjb- [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 19:29:26 prxq, well it is not always right. but it is. and you answer y you know where to look. The alternative is aprmissive compiler and then it fails.. And you have no clue. 19:30:09 I like it the way it is.. 19:30:30 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-056-018.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:31:23 -!- moah [~gnu@dslb-188-109-151-121.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 19:32:22 Listing the content of a package gave me a bit of a headache today. 19:33:17 H4ns [5b3d5bd3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.61.91.211] has joined #lisp 19:33:42 This does the trick: (do-symbols (sym 'cl-user) (when (or (boundp sym) (fboundp sym)) (describe sym))) 19:34:02 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 19:34:48 -!- wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:35:09 Verbose though. You might wants to start with a print. 19:37:50 Younder: I am talking of old emacs related cruft in files. I think you misunderstood. 19:38:29 Soulman [~knute@175.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:40:32 -!- Soulman1 [~knute@175.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:42:04 nyef: these lines, btw, are there since the beginning of the nineties, if not earlier :-) 19:42:38 prxq: It wouldn't surprise me if they were there from the mid-seventies. 19:43:03 (Well, okay, maybe mid-eighties.) 19:43:17 so removing them feels like defacement. 19:44:10 (put 'package 'safe-local-variable (lambda (maybesafe) t)) 19:44:43 etc, for everything you want to allow. But really, just delete them, cause doing otherwise is a PITA for all *other* emacs users too. 19:45:13 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.60] has quit [Quit: Offline] 19:46:01 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.60] has joined #lisp 19:46:36 foom: I'll do that. 19:47:05 micro__ [~micro@www.bway.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:00 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.60] has quit [Client Quit] 19:51:59 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.60] has joined #lisp 19:53:20 Krystof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 19:53:41 hi Krystof 19:56:27 hi! 19:56:48 -!- pferor`` [~user@72.233.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:57:18 good times 19:57:31 Krystof: cool demo :-) 19:57:36 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-81.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:58:55 thanks! 19:59:14 by next year I'd better have made progress -- you can only add graphs together with the mouse so many times 19:59:20 dnolen [aa95640a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.170.149.100.10] has joined #lisp 19:59:45 probably I will implement audialization of vectors next :-) 19:59:46 how does that plot-embedding magic work?? 19:59:58 pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has joined #lisp 19:59:59 Krystof: it looks very neat 20:00:00 *antifuchs* is sad to not be at eclm ): 20:00:43 how much R do you know? lattice (and ggplot) generate objects describing graphs (dataset, call, etc) -- and the default print method plots to the currently open graphics device 20:01:06 but since I'm in charge of printing for the repl I can intercept that, plot to a small png file, and use emacs' image support to display that instead 20:01:27 I still get all the slime presentationy goodness behind those images 20:01:31 Krystof: I know no R. I thought it would be need to do with gnuplot. 20:01:41 neat, even 20:01:41 john mccarthy died yesterday? can anyone confirm? 20:01:56 I will never ever again need to use gnuplot 20:01:59 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 20:02:05 R is about a million times better even for the things gnuplot was good at 20:02:20 H4ns: where did you hear this? 20:02:21 prxq: mode is used by emacs. I imagine package is used by slime. AFAIK syntax is not used, but it could be used to implement variations in parsing and indenting. 20:02:28 oconnore [~Eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:35 felideon: twitter, from a javascript guy, no source given 20:02:36 prxq: it's harmless, I would let them as they are. 20:02:55 Krystof: ok! that good? 20:03:01 pjb: it is annoying 20:03:31 H4ns: well, i'd say that's not a very credible source. 20:03:32 prxq: I think so. I mean, I was never a gnuplot power user -- but I used to hate the fact that it produced ugly output slowly 20:03:55 oh, I'm kind of power user, but not terribly fond of it. 20:03:56 prxq: i do agree, which is why i did ask if anyone can confirm. 20:04:07 R's graphics are straightforward to get to publication-quality 20:04:46 prxq: What's annoying? I have such a line in all my sources. 20:04:53 oh my. RIP, John McCarthy 20:05:09 antifuchs: do _you_ have a better source? 20:05:18 prxq: right, but who would make something like that up 20:05:20 H4ns: no good source yet. 20:05:25 H4ns: furthermore, there are a lot of John McCarthy. 20:05:31 pjb: emacs keeps asking about safety and stuff 20:05:38 time will tell. 20:05:50 felideon: the same twisted mind that would use tweeter and program in javascript. 20:06:07 jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has joined #lisp 20:06:19 prxq: you can tell emacs what variables are safe. 20:06:24 pjb: offense taken. 20:06:47 according to the discussion, this seems to be the best source yet: https://twitter.com/#!/wendyg/status/128554733714669568 20:07:31 legumbre [~user@ec2-107-20-43-234.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 20:07:35 antifuchs: this is what i read, but i'm feeling kind of reluctant to retweet 20:07:48 Kron [~Kron@129-97-120-238.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 20:07:49 haha, "use tweeter" 20:07:49 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 20:07:51 -!- knotpine [~cmsimon@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:07:57 antifuchs, http://newlispfanclub.alh.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=41 20:07:59 H4ns: so am I! as long as wikipedia hasn't updated the date of death... 20:08:14 -!- Kron is now known as Guest5160 20:08:21 Qworkescence: no source in the french message, either? 20:08:27 antgreen, no 20:08:29 antifuchs, * 20:08:34 as long as stanford doesn't release a statement. 20:08:50 Anyone want to call him? 20:08:57 also, heh. that message is from 2003 (: 20:09:02 (650) 857-0672 20:09:05 Quadrescence: no, let the man in peace 20:09:09 ;) 20:10:08 The last url quotes: "John McCarthy (the father of the Lisp Language) died in Boston on January 04th 2003. " But since we all saw John after that, we must conclude he resurrected. 20:10:23 which has additional implications 20:11:07 Can we safely assume that he was resurrected on the 7th of January, 2003? 20:11:36 anyway, some random net rumor. 20:11:47 Garbage collection just took him to the third generation, so he didn't really get resurrected 20:11:48 Brendan_T [~brendan@46.105.251.111] has joined #lisp 20:12:18 ... maybe he got tenured? 20:12:44 devinus [~devinus@65.107.181.222.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:53 CL isn't particularly functional 20:13:17 It's the less disfunctional of all programming languages! 20:13:56 pjb: s/less/least/ 20:14:10 -!- ska` [~user@ppp-58-8-53-102.revip2.asianet.co.th] has left #lisp 20:14:11 -!- Martiini [~martin@88-196-141-145-dsl.rpl.estpak.ee] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:14:38 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:14:58 sellout-: Turns out, you *can* make MAKE-INSTANCE always return a singleton instance for a particular class... It's even fairly intuitive how, no idea why it hadn't occured to me (and everyone else) before... The following works at least in theory on a MOP-compliant implementation (it works on SBCL): http://paste.lisp.org/display/125475 20:15:44 -!- Guest5160 [~Kron@129-97-120-238.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:16:20 ... isn't that pretty much what I suggested? ALLOCATE-INSTANCE? 20:16:33 Mimisbrunnr [~Mimisbrun@pool-71-190-23-79.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:35 (time (length (make-string (1- array-dimension-limit)))) -- "0 bytes consed" (sbcl -- a superficially smart compiler) 20:16:42 what are your must have Emacs plugins for working with lisp code? 20:16:48 -!- legumbre [~user@ec2-107-20-43-234.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has left #lisp 20:16:49 Hexstream: Go one step more clever. If *%singleton%* is unbound, set it to the return of (call-next-method). 20:17:04 nyef: Didn't you conclude that it would be too late then?... I saw no mention of a :around method... Maybe I missed something obvious. 20:17:15 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-218-254.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:21 Does anyone know if John McCarthy is actually dead or are the rumors of his death grossly exaggerated? 20:17:45 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:17:45 Mimisbrunnr: unconfirmed. 20:18:01 okay 20:18:02 Hexstream: My conclusion was that singletons must not have state (that is, they are pure identities), and that the only reasonable public interface for obtaining one is a constant. 20:18:22 devinus: SLIME and paredit. 20:18:43 nyef: Uh? Why can't a singleton have state? As long as it's not changing once created... 20:18:44 i just don't get paredit 20:18:50 i find it maddening 20:19:27 Hexstream: If state doesn't change post-natum it's not state, it's a constant. 20:19:56 pavelludiq [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has joined #lisp 20:20:10 Hexstream: Consider a GUID. It doesn't have state. It has identity, which is externalized as some stupidly-long number, but that's not state. 20:20:15 nyef: why would that be especially true of singletons compared to non-singleton objects. 20:20:37 gigamonkey: Why would which be especially true of singletons? 20:20:40 mulander [mulander@078088239019.lubin.vectranet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:20:44 ITSM that singletons can be values or state equally well. Indeed, in prototype languages it's all singletons. 20:20:45 That they not have state. 20:21:11 A singleton with state is a global variable, and has to be dealt with as such. 20:21:17 -!- devinus [~devinus@65.107.181.222.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:21:22 Which has testing implications. 20:22:09 I see. You're just saying code that relies on stateful singletons is harder to test. I can definitely agree with that. 20:22:24 nyef: Let's say I have some representation of HTML I can destructively modify. So I create this document imperatively with joy, and then I call a function that "freezes" this HTML so it can't be modified anymore, or I just decide that I will never, ever modify this piece of HTML representation again. Would you say that the HTML used to have state but now it doesn't have state anymore after the freeze?.. 20:22:40 lain_ [~lain@f052162211.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:23:01 Historical question: does anyone known of a Lisp earlier than PDP-6 Lisp that has caar, cadr, cdar, etc.? PDP-1 Lisp did not, as far as its documentation goes. 20:23:16 gigamonkey: Right, it was an imperative must, not a definitional must. 20:23:44 Though one could argue that stateless singeltons are really flyweights. 20:23:56 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@193-64-22-205-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:24:13 Sure. 20:24:31 Again with CLIM +NOWHERE+ and +EVERYWHERE+. 20:24:52 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has left #lisp 20:25:46 VERITAS AETERNA 20:26:23 That too! 20:27:17 jcowan: pre CAR lisps? wasn't CAR already in the original paper? 20:27:28 ah... the composite ones 20:27:36 docgnome [~docgnome@web169.webfaction.com] has joined #lisp 20:29:01 Hexstream: Yeah, I knew you could do that  I just thought MAKE-INSTANCE was a horribly unintuitive name for getting back something that wasn't made (and defining ALLOCATE-INSTANCE to not allocate). 20:29:15 neuro_sys [~Sentence@unaffiliated/neurosys/x-283974] has joined #lisp 20:29:22 RIP 20:29:48 thanosQR [~thanosqr@88.218.209.49] has joined #lisp 20:30:10 neuro_sys: did someone die? 20:30:13 yep 20:30:17 john mccarthy 20:30:18 http://laughingsquid.com/john-mccarthy-1927-2011-computer-scientist-who-coined-the-term-artificial-intelligence-inventor-of-lisp-programming-language/ 20:30:25 sellout-: Oh. Well FWIW that's what I thought too but I thought you really wanted MAKE-INSTANCE to do that... I'd just go with a *global-variable* or an ENSURE-FOO or something like that really. 20:30:45 oh boy 20:30:50 -!- antifuchs changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: SBCL 1.0.52, slime-indentation changes in CVS, confirmedness of McCarthy's death greatly exaggerated 20:30:58 BlastHardcheese [chris@pdpc/supporter/active/blasthardcheese] has joined #lisp 20:31:21 antifuchs, the person who tweeted is supposedly a journalist and family friend 20:31:41 Qworkescence: that's great, then we won't have to wait too long for a useful confirmation either way 20:31:46 coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:02 antifuchs, right 20:32:24 -!- dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:32:33 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:47 i'm just waiting for him to pop in here and say that the news of his death has been greatly exagerated 20:33:10 u_quark [~u_quark@vpn-131-246.vpn.ntua.gr] has joined #lisp 20:34:45 I kinda don't get why there isn't a LDB for bit-vectors... Isn't the internal representation kind of well-known, and it's a given that the hardware can support this operation extremely efficiently?... I could write my own version, of course, but I'd iterate over the bits one by one with no way to process bits in batches natively, that looks pretty stupid to me. Am I missing something? 20:34:47 kruhft: that would be awesome 20:34:49 I think it's happened before. Or was that Knuth 20:35:23 -!- cnl [~cnl@95.106.11.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:35:29 Hexstream: perhaps the use-case for bitvectors is other than you think 20:36:09 dlowe: Perhaps not. 20:37:06 Hexstream: I suspect that it's purely a efficiency hack for when machines didn't have gigabytes of memory 20:37:13 or color screens :p 20:37:46 I'm working on a "featuresets" library, and I represent featuresets as bit-vectors internally, and it would be awesome to be able to index into an array using the "integer" value of the featureset. 20:38:05 weirdo [sthalik@kronstadt.lain.pl] has joined #lisp 20:38:33 Hexstream: Just use integers. You'll be happier 20:38:43 so it's a hoax? 20:38:46 You can "index" into the "array" using adb 20:38:47 dlowe: That's nonsense. Think about heavily loaded servers where you want everything in-memory... 20:38:50 ch077179 [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has joined #lisp 20:39:02 weirdo: nobody can tell yet 20:39:24 Hexstream: I think of buying more cheap RAM 20:39:25 dlowe: adb? 20:39:31 -!- kruhft is now known as jmccarthy 20:39:59 Hexstream: sorry. logbitp 20:40:24 ohwow [~oh@www.nig.gs] has joined #lisp 20:40:26 RIP LISP 20:40:30 -!- ohwow [~oh@www.nig.gs] has left #lisp 20:40:32 i'm not dead yet! 20:40:34 tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-19-82.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:36 -!- jmccarthy is now known as kruhft 20:40:48 :) 20:40:50 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:40:54 anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has joined #lisp 20:40:55 kruhft: do you have a source for that? 20:41:04 no 20:41:20 shame on you for adding to the confusion, then 20:41:35 dlowe: Sounds like a pretty naive attitude to me. There will always be cases where speed and/or space efficiency is crucial. And I'm the first to know that it usually isn't. But sometimes it is. 20:41:52 -!- weirdo [sthalik@kronstadt.lain.pl] has left #lisp 20:42:00 -!- tsuru [~charlie@adsl-74-179-19-221.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:42:17 Hexstream: It's pretty insulting to assume that I think it's the only solution 20:42:22 ruediger [ruediger@pseudoterminal.org] has joined #lisp 20:42:36 Hexstream: especially when I put the reasonable solution in your lap 20:42:47 dlowe: Where that? 20:42:48 -!- oconnore [~Eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:42:51 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.60] has quit [Quit: Offline] 20:43:09 Hexstream: use an integer instead of a bitvector, use logtestp to get your values out 20:43:32 The bignum implementation will sort out which byte goes to which bit 20:43:48 Cam [~x@trivialand/staff/Cam] has joined #lisp 20:43:53 dlowe: Kinda defeats the purpose of bit-vectors, which I like more in all aspects except lack of LDB. 20:44:14 Hexstream: oh? what's the purpose of bit-vectors, then? 20:44:35 dlowe: One fun thing is that they don't look like an integer to lisp... 20:44:59 that's not a purpose. 20:45:18 dlowe: It helps debugging if my bit-vectors look like bit-vectors instead of integers. 20:45:46 -!- anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Client Quit] 20:45:49 my biggest grief is that you can't displace bitvectors into octet vectors (: 20:46:18 anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has joined #lisp 20:46:19 Hexstream: that's not a purpose either. 20:46:25 antifuchs, they are called bytes in that modern world 20:46:36 dlowe: The only answer that comes to mind at this point is "fuck you", really. 20:46:54 octets 20:46:55 Debugging is not a purpose? Let's go back to C or something. 20:47:05 Hexstream: You have unwarranted hostility. 20:47:08 Younder: tell that to rfc authors. 20:47:19 (04:42:17 PM) dlowe: Hexstream: It's pretty insulting to assume that I think it's the only solution (04:42:36 PM) dlowe: Hexstream: especially when I put the reasonable solution in your lap 20:48:10 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75f2f8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:48:19 antifuchs, The were still worried about VMS.. VMS has been dead has been dead for 10 years. 20:48:23 And also the whole "debugging is not a purpose" thing ;P 20:48:44 *kruhft* warms his hands by the flames 20:48:54 bitvectors have all sorts of useful properties, the main one being that it allows a space-efficient implementation that can be treated as a sequence 20:49:10 Younder: They are still called octets here in France :) 20:49:36 No, I don't consider it a purpose when printing an integer in binary is so trivial 20:49:54 Neronus, Well they are bytes everywhere else. 20:50:09 Younder: Yup :) 20:50:48 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.89] has joined #lisp 20:50:52 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.89] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:50:55 And they could easily have had one more useful property: extremely efficient coercion of an subsequence of bits into an integer ;P 20:51:08 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.85] has joined #lisp 20:51:17 Time for "trivial-ldb-for-bitvectors" I guess. 20:51:39 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 20:51:44 Hexstream: Heck with it, just use some of the implementation-specific hacks to get at the underlying memory and work in terms of that. 20:54:54 yacin [~yacin@loki.nadji.us] has joined #lisp 20:55:01 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 20:55:07 Bitvectors are no more space-efficient than they used to be, but their relative time efficiency has gone down quite a bit. 20:55:16 lemonodor [jjwiseman@nat/google/x-fuiivfsgklwavwic] has joined #lisp 20:55:27 jcowan: no less, you mean? 20:55:36 Hackers delight is recommended 20:55:39 jcowan: it's hard to get more space-efficient than one bit per bit 20:55:53 without, you know, compression 20:55:59 yes. But no more and no less, is what I meant. 20:56:23 dlowe, read the i mentioned book above 20:56:30 It's not an accident that the JVM implements vectors of bools as byte arrays rather than bit arrays. 20:57:27 Younder: yes. I read it quite a few years ago 20:57:28 jcowan, no computers read word 64 bits these days 20:57:29 jcowan: depends on the operation. I have a hack that converts between byte and bit vectors. 20:58:40 You still win in bitvectors for large vectors due to them using fewer cache fills 20:58:53 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:59:09 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.27.236] has joined #lisp 20:59:22 -!- yacin [~yacin@loki.nadji.us] has left #lisp 21:00:20 dlowe: Point. 21:00:23 pkhuong: Is it related to my hack to turn a string into a vector of (unsigned-byte 32) values? 21:00:37 nyef, why 32 21:00:41 nyef: no. It's in C, for one (: 21:01:01 ngz [~user@201.144.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:05 UDF in 32 bit? 21:01:08 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 21:01:11 nyef: That's got to be *extremely* implemetnation dependent, given that the size of a character is implementation dependent. 21:01:28 -!- sellout- [~Adium@12.232.236.2] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:01:29 Younder: Because CHARACTER array elements in unicode SBCL are 32 bits wide. 21:01:44 jcowan: some of us don't really care about the rest of the world. 21:02:00 -!- pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:02:06 Oh, wait. It turns it into an array of unsigned-byte 8 values, that was it. 21:02:09 nyef, true, but that is incredibly lame 21:02:16 If you didn't care about the rest of the world, you wouldn't use Unicode, no? 21:02:30 nyef: it's just that I found a really nice multiplication constant to compress 8 bytes into a single bit. 21:02:42 jcowan: I don't mean that kind of world. 21:02:42 Turn of the GC, grab the array, quadruple the size, change the lowtag, re-enable the GC. 21:03:14 nyef: you could pin and use a double-word write (: 21:03:43 -!- Mimisbrunnr [~Mimisbrun@pool-71-190-23-79.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:04:02 Since when did we have an atomic double-word write available from Lisp code? 21:04:19 nyef, It wastes nearly half the memory for Europeans and Americans. 21:05:08 shouldn't be hard to support all the platforms on which we have threads ;) 21:05:24 32-bit characters waste nearly half the memory for nearly everybody. 21:05:26 cafesofie [~user@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:24 francogrex [~user@109.130.109.63] has joined #lisp 21:06:48 jcowan, exactly since only 2 bits are relevant in the Unicode standard of the upper 32 bits. 21:06:59 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 21:06:59 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:07:04 pkhuong: Now, truly atomic or just pseudo-atomic? 21:07:08 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 21:07:09 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 21:07:36 pa is enough. 21:07:44 Oh, well in that case... 21:07:45 Younder: Well, no. Between 4 and 5 bits. 21:08:08 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 21:08:09 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:08:11 whartung [~whartung@wsip-98-189-78-118.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:51 jcowan, last I checked there were 4 16 bit code pages. 21:09:04 -!- benkard [~benkard@141.84.69.67] has quit [Quit: benkard] 21:09:09 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 21:09:09 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:09:18 -!- jaimef is now known as Ober 21:09:21 There are 3 currently in use, 2 reserved for private use, and 12 not yet in use. 21:09:45 sellout- [~Adium@conference/djangocon/x-veqbjcnhrnucrhik] has joined #lisp 21:09:54 So the log_2 of 65536*17 is 20.09 more or less. 21:10:09 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 21:10:09 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:10:31 jcowan, so we are lookin at 24 bits? 21:10:38 Hexstream: the ldb of bit-vector is called subseq. 21:10:57 Younder: In practice 21:10:58 joe marshall posts on mccarthy (http://funcall.blogspot.com/2011/10/john-mccarthy-1927-2011.html), steven levy announces his death on twitter 21:11:08 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 21:11:08 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:11:09 pjb: That still won't give me an integer. And it conses. 21:11:11 yea I just heard 21:11:12 Chicken Scheme, for example, does characters as 24-bit immediates. 21:12:09 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 21:12:09 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:12:32 H4ns: none of them is giving source links either ): 21:12:34 Younder: a byte and an octet are not the same thing. byte is any number of bits. octet is exactly 8 bits. 21:12:45 antifuchs: right. 21:12:50 antifuchs: They could each link to each-other as sources ;P 21:13:13 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 21:13:13 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:13:23 pjb, that is the old definition. Today a byte is 8 bits. 21:13:39 pjb: In common parlance, a byte *is* an octet... Except in the lisp community ;P 21:14:09 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 21:14:09 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:14:10 ... At least nobody can agree on how large a word is. 21:14:33 true 21:14:36 2 bytes, of course (: 21:14:38 yea I would consider the distinction between byte and octet to be a legacy thing that's not relevant today 21:14:39 ... or if bit 0 is most or least significant. 21:14:49 pkhuong: 16-bit bytes, I hope? 21:14:49 pkhuong, or 4 21:15:09 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 21:15:09 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:15:15 Oh, for the days of a 48-bit instruction word. 21:15:25 whartung: except that octet is always unambiguous 21:15:30 or 60 bit 21:15:31 (and always has been) 21:15:33 well 64 bit or 32 bit is likely to be with us fro some time 21:15:34 yes 21:15:38 "Octet" is still telecom and ISO speak. 21:15:49 Younder: (byte 9 0) 21:15:52 Or was that a 56-bit instruction word? I forget. 21:16:04 whartung: it's plenty relevant if you want to make sence of CL 21:16:09 pjb, exactly 8 bits 21:16:11 CDC Cybers had a 60 bit word, and characters were 6 bit, if you wanted lower case, you consumed 12 bits 21:16:18 Younder: count again. 21:16:52 pjb, We are not counting decimal here 21:17:27 we are marketing 21:17:38 I dunno, if you conflated byte and octet you likely wouldn't be hurting yourself, even in CL, simply because today there is no distinction, and today there no real need to segregate the two. 21:18:13 -!- dlowe [dlowe@nat/google/x-osimmvfpbhkdrjrk] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:18:47 Hum. 60? I can understand that 80 (which seemed really weird to me first time I came across it) is 64+16, but how do you get at 60?... Or it's just 64 minus 4 wasted bits?... 21:18:53 As long as ldb and friends are around, the distinction is still needed. 21:18:54 whartung: (byte 12 0) 21:19:08 Hexstream: 10 6-bit characters 21:19:29 multiples of 8 are an IBM thing, historically, and multiples of 6 were much commoner for a long time 21:19:34 note the 36-bit PDP-10 21:19:59 Oh. 21:20:34 jcowan, hence that clingingness to ocatans :) 21:20:51 octets 21:20:52 I would argue that (byte ...) in CL is badly named today. 21:21:08 whartung: What would you call it instead? 21:21:25 whartung, it is ! 21:21:30 bits-specifier, something like that 21:21:31 Maybe "bits"? 21:21:34 bit-field 21:21:34 yea 21:21:35 bits 21:21:38 something like that 21:21:49 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:22:16 cesarbp [~cbolano@189.227.216.215] has joined #lisp 21:22:35 call it bitcookie 21:22:41 *Hexstream* waits for pjb to exclaim proudly "(defun bits (size position) (byte size position))". 21:22:45 bit chip cookies 21:22:54 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-72-43-20-246.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:23:15 Eatime. 21:23:17 cut the cookie monsterand we've got it 21:23:20 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 21:23:24 <_death> topic still makes sense? 21:24:16 death: we hate byte being different from 8 bits. that whole octet bit turns us off. 21:25:29 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@186.123.185.73] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:25:44 In PDP10 it made sense. 21:25:48 <_death> I'm asking about confirmedness of McCarthy's death.. though you'd expect me to know by my nickname, Binky ran away a few weeks ago and since then many compupeople died 21:26:12 I have no reason to not believe it. 21:26:12 Ritchie is dead too. 21:26:32 At least we still have Kay, Ingalls, and Wirth.... 21:27:00 -!- pavelludiq [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:27:31 _death: that's very funny! and what great taste you display on this publicly-logged channel 21:27:37 smaltalk is great. I think you should add Simon p. Jones (Haskell) 21:27:56 fair enought 21:28:03 My hero.. 21:28:20 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A368D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:28:44 I'm not as familiar wit the genealogy of the pure function languages and how Haskell relates to ML etc. 21:28:47 is sbcl supposed to work with gdb: ex: gdb --annotate=3 sbcl.exe ... set breakpoint pending on etc ... ? I'm getting Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault 21:28:48 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:29:04 egn [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 21:29:18 knotpine [~cmsimon@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:38 francogrex: You need to issue a command or two to arrange for the various traps that SBCL uses internally (including SIGSEGV) to be delivered correctly rather than held in gbd. 21:29:40 I'm more curious where you were planning on setting a BP in GDB with SBCL... 21:29:42 whartung, look at Bacchus work from1979 21:29:46 s/gbd/gdb/ 21:29:56 1977 21:30:16 John Bacchus 21:30:32 cool thx Younder 21:30:44 nyef: what commands are those? 21:30:54 antifuchs: someone is now claiming to having talked to someone in Stanford and confirming. :/ 21:31:12 francogrex: I don't remember. Something like "handle SIGSEGV pass nostop noprint" and whatnot. I try to avoid using gdb as much as possible. 21:31:39 SpiderFred [~SpiderFre@135.119.broadband14.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 21:31:49 Younder: Famous primarily for being a god of drinking, partying, and parsing? 21:32:37 marsell [~marsell@120.20.12.135] has joined #lisp 21:33:30 -!- SpiderFred [~SpiderFre@135.119.broadband14.iol.cz] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:34:31 nyef, I had more though of the creator of Fortran and and fo theinception of functional programming 21:34:58 <_death> antifuchs: does the fact that this channel is "publicly-logged" mean anything? everything I put outside my head I consider "publicly-logged", and the status of whatever's inside my head is doubtful, too. anyway, I gather you're being sarcastic and that you don't share my "taste". noted, and will adjust my future discussion style accordingly. 21:35:00 francogrex: rebuilding SBCL with :ud2-breakpoints may help to avoid SIGINTs in gdb (/me used it once or twice..) 21:35:30 But it resembles that roman wine godes, yes 21:35:56 I've always seen his name spelled "Backus". 21:36:37 marsell_ [~marsell@120.20.176.248] has joined #lisp 21:36:48 Bike, I can't spell 21:36:54 I had a math teacher named Bacchus in 8th grade 21:37:14 But he wasn't much of a whiner.... 21:37:17 -!- marsell [~marsell@120.20.12.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:37:17 -!- marsell_ is now known as marsell 21:38:14 Lets just pay are tributes to john Baccus 21:38:36 Younder: ... raise a glass in his honor? 21:38:56 A brilliant man 21:39:24 pavelludiq [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has joined #lisp 21:39:25 nyef, make it a cold beer 21:39:44 ... How about a Barley-wine? 21:40:04 What about him? 21:40:19 oconnore [~Eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:36 How about Simon P. Jones. 21:40:53 You know what? How about I just get back to work? 21:41:01 How about Thompson 21:41:32 nyef, You do that. I have a two day leave. 21:43:38 nanoc [~conanhome@186.123.179.70] has joined #lisp 21:44:15 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3151705 Unfortunately it's true. I just heard back from Peter Norvig, who says "He died peacefully in his sleep last night." 21:45:40 :( 21:45:51 -!- antifuchs changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: SBCL 1.0.52, slime-indentation changes in CVS, R.I.P John McCarthy. 21:46:25 thread also has somebody claiming to have called stanford and getting confirmation. 21:46:29 -!- lain_ [~lain@f052162211.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:46:34 a sad month in computing. 21:46:35 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:47:13 agumonkey [agumonkey@34.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:19 The Stanford professor..? Not another one.. In one week? 21:48:07 I feel sick going to school every week and informing my classmates of the tragedy that just hit our future profession. RIP 21:48:27 Yup, he died yesterday 21:49:01 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has joined #lisp 21:50:39 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAsV5-Hv-7U 21:51:41 Don McClean The Day the music died 21:53:01 -!- whartung [~whartung@wsip-98-189-78-118.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: whartung] 21:54:10 -!- felideon [~fdelgado@184.105.242.75] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 21:54:21 peterhil [~peterhil@ZYYYMMCMLXXVII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 21:54:26 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:55:20 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:56:00 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.11.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:56:16 waveman [~tim@124.170.43.134] has joined #lisp 21:57:00 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-064-182-229.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:10 -!- dnolen [aa95640a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.170.149.100.10] has left #lisp 21:57:24 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 21:57:26 Guess It is just us.. 21:57:37 I feel lonely 21:57:42 -!- drdo`` is now known as drdo 21:59:01 -!- mtd [~martin@chop.xades.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:59:14 Younder: channel too empty for you? 21:59:18 -!- tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:59:31 It was inevitable I guess.. Lisp is a 50'th project. 21:59:59 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189-38-236-217.static-corp.ajato.com.br] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:00:09 felideon [~fdelgado@184.105.242.75] has joined #lisp 22:00:11 CL is what we have now. And hey Guy Steele is still here 22:00:53 CL, Scheme, Elisp, and Clojure are what we have now. 22:01:10 What about ISLisp? :-) 22:01:16 *jcowan* rubs his hands together at the thought of ISLisp. 22:01:16 REPLeffect, McCarthy has died 22:01:24 Or EuLisp? 22:01:25 THat's all part of my Evil Plan. 22:01:25 Yes, I knew that. 22:01:48 I just joined the channel to see if it was being discussed. 22:02:04 so I kind of came in mid-stream at your "lonely" comment. 22:02:13 whartung [~whartung@wsip-98-189-78-118.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:22 REPLeffect, well fuck off 22:02:37 An ISLisp implementation is on my personal open-source bucket list. 22:02:51 Younder: um. Why the nastiness? 22:03:14 tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:32 Guest1072 [~martin@chop.xades.com] has joined #lisp 22:04:20 REPLeffect, I take offence in your easy attitude. John McCarthy ment a lot to me and no he is gone. I want time to morn. 22:04:31 now 22:04:46 Younder: you have completely misread me. 22:05:07 I at least interpreted "It is just us; I feel lonely" as referring to the quiet on the channel, not the death of JMc. 22:05:33 jcowan: you are correct -- when I came on, I only saw a couple of people active 22:05:45 I was a bit surprised, being that McCarthy has just passed. 22:05:47 No, I was refereing to JMc 22:07:27 Younder: I apologize for not being clear about what I meant. 22:07:28 jcowan, I lost my father just a year ago.. That is how I felt. 22:08:28 I was in no way intending to make light of McCarthy's death. 22:10:21 REPLeffect, I realize that now 22:10:36 I'm glad 22:10:52 -!- nicdev_ [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:11:03 unfortunatlely tone of voice doesn't come through on IRC 22:11:19 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:11:35 chats and email are great for sharing data, but lousy for communicating... 22:12:35 doritos [~joshua@c-76-118-155-244.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:12:53 -!- blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-43568cfa.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:13:59 whartung: communicating is sharing data. It's just that there are some sorts of data that chats and email aren't good at sharing 22:14:20 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:14:56 "communicating" is when you wife doesn't feel inclined to say "Do you even listen to me?"... 22:15:08 blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-43568cfa.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:52 akovalenko: ok, I will try next time I rebuild sbcl. It's not that important though... just wanted to experiemnt out of boredom really 22:16:11 http://i.imgur.com/Y02DM.jpg 22:16:15 mcpherrin [~quassel@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 22:16:28 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:16:34 hikarudo [~hikarudo@201.86.31.230.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 22:16:36 -!- mcpherrin [~quassel@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca] has left #lisp 22:16:48 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:18:57 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@ZYYYMMCMLXXVII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:18:59 well, I suggest to update the topic and also (a suggestion) a header on planet lispor other cl sites about the end of an epoch (mccarthy) 22:19:30 Update the topic to what? 22:19:31 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:19:50 francogrex: /topic 22:20:28 felideon: I'm not an op 22:20:55 -!- H4ns changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: SBCL 1.0.52, slime-indentation changes in CVS, R.I.P John McCarthy. 22:20:58 francogrex: you can run that command to see the current topic 22:21:01 francogrex: no need. 22:21:11 ok i see now 22:21:13 francogrex: antifuchs had already added it 22:21:21 yes I saw, good 22:22:02 -!- H4ns changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: ABCL 1.0.0, SBCL 1.0.52, slime-indentation changes in CVS, R.I.P John McCarthy. 22:23:52 Daditos [~kvirc@unaffiliated/daditos] has joined #lisp 22:25:06 peterhil [~peterhil@GGYZKMMDCCLIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 22:25:56 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.109.63] has left #lisp 22:27:12 -!- agumonkey [agumonkey@34.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:28:11 *akovalenko* becomes (* (+ (*)(*)(*)(*))(+ (*)(*)(*)(*))(+(*)(*))) years old today. No overflow so far... 22:29:12 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.124.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:29:13 Anyone who want's to write a eulogy to John McCarthys's death? 22:29:46 *Fade* looks at Younder 22:30:14 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.124.232] has joined #lisp 22:30:29 "You did it all wrong, but you made it all possible. Thanks, man." 22:30:42 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCarthy_(computer_scientist) 22:31:35 I know who John McCarthy is. 22:31:39 he's still alive. 22:31:59 Seems Norvig said he died this week end. 22:32:03 Fade, Well he died in his sleep las night 22:32:08 Fade: did you see him today? 22:32:10 Fade: not according to various sources, incl. norvig and stanford 22:32:30 :/ 22:32:38 indeed ): 22:34:09 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 22:34:17 -!- vhost- [~vhost@unaffiliated/vhost-] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 22:34:24 -!- Brendan_T [~brendan@46.105.251.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:34:33 vhost- [~vhost@robodance.kyleterry.com] has joined #lisp 22:34:33 -!- vhost- [~vhost@robodance.kyleterry.com] has quit [Changing host] 22:34:33 vhost- [~vhost@unaffiliated/vhost-] has joined #lisp 22:34:58 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.124.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:35:23 -!- lemonodor [jjwiseman@nat/google/x-fuiivfsgklwavwic] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 22:35:28 well, fuck. 22:35:33 Now I'm bummed out. 22:35:38 -!- pavelludiq [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:35:50 *Fade* wanders off to smoke a cigar and drink a glass of whiskey 22:36:33 :\ 22:36:36 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3151233 22:36:38 Guthur [~user@212.183.140.57] has joined #lisp 22:37:59 JamesTaggart [Sheboonda@cyber.sex0r.com] has joined #lisp 22:38:36 -!- redline6561 is now known as redline6561_nop 22:40:05 Anyone who want's to write a eulogy to John McCarthys's death? 22:40:25 It's free software: you're free to write it yourself! 22:40:32 I'd prefer Zach 22:40:46 The oldbies will do it. 22:40:56 and more appropriately. 22:41:14 i__ [~none@unaffiliated/i--/x-3618442] has joined #lisp 22:41:30 Fade, anyone specific? 22:42:45 Norvig, or Steele, or Greenblat, or just about anybody who came up in the sixties and seventies. 22:43:12 naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 22:43:47 http://techcrunch.com/2011/10/24/creator-of-lisp-john-mccarthy-dead-at-84/ 22:43:52 There's another one.. 22:44:29 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has quit [Client Quit] 22:45:34 -!- knotpine [~cmsimon@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:45:42 -!- u_quark [~u_quark@vpn-131-246.vpn.ntua.gr] has left #lisp 22:45:54 naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 22:46:01 Fade, now that you mention it it is an ancient who frequents comp.lang.lisp 22:46:07 -!- ngz [~user@201.144.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:46:50 -!- JamesTaggart is now known as DagnyTaggart 22:47:06 Fade, after Guy Steele. Who was the ANSI editor? 22:47:35 -!- DagnyTaggart is now known as JohnGalt 22:47:54 KMP? 22:48:55 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl21-86-27.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 22:48:58 pavelludiq [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has joined #lisp 22:49:07 At OOPSLA in Nashville a couple years back, JMC was slated to talk but was ill and couldn't make. Steele conducted a phone interview with him. At the end, everyone signed a page of their choice of a new copy of the Lisp 1.5 Manual for well wishes and thanks. I hope that made it to him in time. 22:50:25 I am talking about Ken Pitman morons .. 22:50:25 -!- thanosQR [~thanosqr@88.218.209.49] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:50:27 -!- replore_ [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:51:00 Right, KMP... 22:51:12 KMP? 22:51:17 Kent M Pitman 22:51:18 Kent M Pittman. 22:51:24 ...moron... 22:51:24 Or however it's spelled. 22:51:37 -!- nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 22:52:27 well him 22:52:28 Kharghosh [62be0d03@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.190.13.3] has joined #lisp 22:53:54 Wharthung: I belive I used the plural. 22:53:55 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 22:54:07 _danb_ [~user@203.38.189.126] has joined #lisp 22:55:07 Well I'm out folks, Raise a ) to JMC... 22:55:18 TeMPOraL [~user@31-187-1-188.home.aster.pl] has joined #lisp 22:55:19 -!- whartung [~whartung@wsip-98-189-78-118.oc.oc.cox.net] has left #lisp 22:56:10 Brendan_T [~brendan@46.105.251.111] has joined #lisp 22:56:33 -!- redline6561_nop is now known as redline6561 22:56:48 -!- Davidbrcz_ [~david@ANantes-151-1-48-19.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:00:11 -!- felideon [~fdelgado@184.105.242.75] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 23:00:17 felideon [~felideon@184.105.242.75] has joined #lisp 23:03:33 -!- JohnGalt [Sheboonda@cyber.sex0r.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 23:03:47 JamesTaggart [Sheboonda@cyber.sex0r.com] has joined #lisp 23:03:49 -!- JamesTaggart [Sheboonda@cyber.sex0r.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 23:04:17 JamesTaggart [Sheboonda@cyber.sex0r.com] has joined #lisp 23:04:19 -!- JamesTaggart [Sheboonda@cyber.sex0r.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 23:04:47 JamesTaggart [Sheboonda@cyber.sex0r.com] has joined #lisp 23:06:01 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:07:36 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@31-187-1-188.home.aster.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:10:05 Unless the Working Group vetoes it, the R7RS will be dedicated to his memory. 23:11:41 knotpine [~cmsimon@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:33 Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #lisp 23:30:19 Free-man [1000@c-68-56-234-19.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:47 mornin; has john mccarthy's demise been confirmed? 23:30:54 yes 23:30:57 It seems so. 23:31:07 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:31:15 kty my condolences 23:31:45 interesting to see if he gets notice equivalent to Ritchie 23:31:57 cythrawll [~DarkAngel@unaffiliated/cythrawll] has joined #lisp 23:31:58 he will, by those who knew him 23:32:05 who's obit was above the fold on the NYT 23:32:10 My condolences. 23:33:05 duno; i just read it in rss 23:33:25 *whose 23:33:54 *JuanDaugherty* is confused about the proper pronominal form. 23:34:07 who is fine 23:34:40 whose (possessive) obit 23:34:52 he hadn't done anything with lisp for decades, right? 23:34:58 oops; not poss. referant 23:35:01 JuanDaugherty: he will probably get as much recognition 23:35:22 everyone is obsessed with AI lately 23:35:23 JuanDaugherty: I believe he was to the previous-to-last ILC 23:35:29 Nisstyre, maybe, maybe not. 23:35:31 or at least at the stanford lisp event 23:35:38 no hacking, I believe 23:35:56 JuanDaugherty: it is true that Ritchie had a wider impact though 23:36:00 right, I meant actually do something 23:36:14 though maybe you could argue that McCarthy had a more narrow but more focused impact 23:36:29 have McCarthy and Richtie ever met? 23:36:31 I find it somewhat distasteful to argue about which dead person deserves the most recognition ): 23:36:33 Ritchie would have had no impact if time sharing hadn't been invented by McCarthy. 23:36:38 antifuchs: yes I agree 23:36:41 they were both geniuses 23:36:50 Free-man, probably. 23:36:53 k 23:37:00 wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:13 no lisp == no Scheme == no modern programming as we know it 23:37:21 i read recently that Chuck "Forth" Moore was also at MIT late 50s to early 60s 23:37:29 -!- jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:37:33 Nisstyre, that's overreaching. 23:37:36 -!- Brendan_T [~brendan@46.105.251.111] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:37:45 JuanDaugherty: it's kind of true for one hemisphere of programming though 23:37:55 there would have been some lang based on the lambda calculus 23:38:01 by 1960 23:38:13 probably 23:38:18 but would it be like lisp? 23:38:26 rgrau`` [~user@18.Red-95-123-239.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:36 I guess you could argue that ML and friends would've been developed anyway 23:38:43 lisp was a paper; a student implemented it. 23:38:53 no but I don't lisp has been all that influential to modern computing 23:39:01 algol was far more influential 23:39:10 Algol was influential to every language 23:39:27 lisp came first though 23:39:44 fortran was first; list proessing in it, then lisp 23:40:21 hmm 23:40:30 according to wikipedia Algol came a year after Fortran 23:40:33 ##alternate-history . 23:40:41 and lisp is not an algol-like lang though most modern ones are 23:40:48 alternate timelines are not canonical :) 23:40:52 Nisstyre: have a look at http://www.informatimago.com/articles/flpl/index.html 23:41:12 -!- pavelludiq [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:41:39 you could argue that lisp was the first language to embrace the idea that you could trade inefficiency for ease of use 23:41:53 sure but it's still incomplete :) 23:41:57 also, an interactive programming environment? 23:42:21 antifuchs: yeah it might be 23:42:29 plus, garbage collection and too-verbose debug information (: 23:42:29 I don't know the history on that 23:43:12 right, garbage collection is probably the most important idea, or most impactful idea that he had 23:43:17 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@186.123.179.70] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:44:14 I wonder if this is what it felt like when Isaac Newton or Leonard Euler died 23:44:15 -!- H4ns [5b3d5bd3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.61.91.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:44:26 prolb 23:44:36 *Leonhard 23:44:51 even vicarious grief is real 23:45:01 Nisstyre: that's not mccarthy's idea. 23:45:17 pkhuong: he popularized it though, correct? 23:45:24 or at least improved on it 23:46:03 a misguided grad student did. 23:47:18 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.212.118] has joined #lisp 23:48:05 Russell. 23:48:08 tritchey [~tritchey@108.60.121.114] has joined #lisp 23:48:17 pjb: as in Bertrand? 23:48:37 Stephen R. Russell 23:48:44 oh ok 23:48:48 that was the grad student? 23:48:54 Nisstyre: do you have any large-scale sense of the timeline involved? 23:49:01 pkhuong: yes, somewhat 23:49:21 Well, Issac Newtown was an evil alchemist spending his life on searching how to turn good lead into gold, and perhaps even worse deeds. 23:49:27 dnolen [~davidnole@71.249.142.141] has joined #lisp 23:49:40 Brendan_T [~brendan@46.105.251.111] has joined #lisp 23:49:53 pjb: sounds like a good guy 23:49:59 unsubstantiated hear-say 23:50:19 Nisstyre: He didn't want he's week-end "amusements" to be published. 23:50:30 pjb: wasn't he the one who tried to popularize his too-simplistic version of the theory of relativity and his too-complex calculus? (: 23:50:43 *antifuchs* ducks, runs 23:51:01 antifuchs: exactly. 23:51:26 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-064-182-229.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:52:51 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.212.118] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 23:53:11 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@189.227.216.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:53:15 with all the old fucks dying... programming is going to be left in the hands of the 20 something hipsters. 23:53:32 php and javascript programmers. 23:53:37 vhost-: what about the middle aged people like Paul Graham, Alan Kay, etc... ? 23:53:40 it might be but that would be the reason 23:53:50 does anybody know the cause of death 23:53:53 ? 23:53:54 Nisstyre: they are all we have 23:54:04 Graham went into his dunjon write arc. Norvig turned over to python, etc. 23:54:06 put them in plastic bubbles 23:54:09 I can't trust those middle aged people. 23:54:23 oh wait Alan Kay is 71 23:54:27 damn 23:54:43 but yeah, we still have people like Graham I guess 23:54:53 Kron [~Kron@98.143.102.22] has joined #lisp 23:54:54 Nisstyre: really? He doesn't look that old. 23:55:02 -!- Kron is now known as Kron_ 23:55:04 pjb: he was born in 1940 23:55:15 also, only a portion of twentysomethngs are hipsters 23:56:01 and those that are will not in general be into computer science 23:56:45 -!- Free-man [1000@c-68-56-234-19.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #lisp 23:57:14 -!- jtza8_ [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-106-139.wbs.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:59:16 oh also 23:59:21 we have people like Philip Wadler 23:59:28 and Simon Peyton Jones