00:01:04 another could thing, would not it be awesome if (iterate (collect 1st-thing into var1) (collect 2-nd-thing into var2)) returned (values var1 var2) automatically 00:01:25 rather then add (finally (return (values var1 var2)))... a man can dream 00:02:18 I like http://lisptips.com/ 00:06:33 -!- RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@dsl254-099-007.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Quit: RomyEatsDrupal] 00:10:23 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:10:30 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 00:10:41 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:10:46 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 00:14:26 -!- doritos [~joshua@c-76-118-155-244.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:15:48 V-ille1 [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-ff2fc100-74.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 00:18:25 -!- BrianRice [~water@97-126-59-7.tukw.qwest.net] has quit 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[Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:21:10 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:21:13 V-ille1 [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-ff2fc100-74.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 01:22:48 -!- SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:23:54 -!- V-ille1 [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-ff2fc100-74.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 01:24:26 Guest53322 [~Kron@69.166.20.161] has joined #lisp 01:26:27 doritos [~joshua@c-76-118-155-244.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:16 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 01:29:27 *maxm-* did not realize you can swap stuff with psetf, obvious once pointed out 01:30:10 ...adding to the warm rays of praise to bask Xach's ego in... 01:30:57 blah meant it as encouragement, came out sarcastic like 01:31:42 wolfpython [~wolf@112.3.255.66] has joined #lisp 01:35:33 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.176] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 01:40:21 cheezus [~Adium@70.50.58.10] has joined #lisp 01:41:01 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 01:42:12 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:42:34 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-182-173.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 01:46:23 -!- Guest53322 [~Kron@69.166.20.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:46:30 Kron [~Kron@69.166.20.161] has joined #lisp 01:46:56 -!- Kron is now known as Guest46462 01:50:21 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-208-204-191.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:55:20 Try also rotatef to swap stuff or shuffle things along 01:56:26 Vivitron [~user@pool-108-7-56-243.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:28 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 01:57:12 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Client Quit] 01:57:18 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 01:57:30 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-96-235.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:57:33 -!- Bike1 [~Glossina@71-214-98-150.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:58:44 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Client Quit] 01:58:53 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 02:00:19 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Client Quit] 02:03:11 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-69-201-186-74.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:04:03 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 02:17:19 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.136.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:21:03 rtoym [~chatzilla@c-67-180-54-112.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:30 Does sbcl still signal an internal error for (compile-file "foo.lisp" :output-file nil)? (Where foo.lisp exists.) 02:23:50 clhs: compile-file 02:24:09 Dang. Where are the bots? Dead and gone now? 02:33:12 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@118.45.149.199] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:40:49 superflit [~superflit@71-208-204-191.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:28 cfy [~cfy@122.228.135.216] has joined #lisp 02:43:28 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.135.216] has quit [Changing host] 02:43:28 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 02:43:52 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@pool-96-226-69-239.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:47:56 Guest1680 [~grahampow@120.156.43.48] has joined #lisp 02:55:45 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:56:32 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:00:58 -!- Guest1680 [~grahampow@120.156.43.48] has left #lisp 03:03:18 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 03:04:15 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:04:15 -!- el-maxo [~max@p5DE8D37A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:07:10 el-maxo [~max@p5790F5E2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:27 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:11:43 -!- wolfpython [~wolf@112.3.255.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:12:45 DaDaDosPrompt [~DaDaDosPr@184.99.13.214] has joined #lisp 03:13:12 scottj [~scott@206.212.250.58] has joined #lisp 03:15:17 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has joined #lisp 03:18:26 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:24:07 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 03:24:09 dmiles [dmiles@dsl-72-19-48-033.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 03:24:14 -!- dmiles_afk [dmiles@dsl-72-19-48-033.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:24:53 wolfpython [~wolf@180.109.56.199] has joined #lisp 03:28:07 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:28:14 -!- wolfpython [~wolf@180.109.56.199] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:28:21 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 03:29:03 wolfpython [~wolf@180.109.56.199] has joined #lisp 03:29:48 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:32:14 -!- wolfpython [~wolf@180.109.56.199] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:33:05 wolfpython [~wolf@180.109.56.199] has joined #lisp 03:33:34 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-179-179.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:33:56 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-134-75.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:34:00 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-134-75.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:35:13 Harag [~phil@41.146.231.191] has joined #lisp 03:35:44 -!- wolfpython [~wolf@180.109.56.199] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:36:16 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-179-179.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:36:34 wolfpython [~wolf@180.109.56.199] has joined #lisp 03:45:57 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:52:19 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:52:48 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.156.102] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:55:06 -!- lemonade` [~rw@71.178.183.215] has left #lisp 03:57:04 paul0` [~user@177.16.145.55] has joined #lisp 03:58:11 -!- paul0 [~paul0@177.16.145.55] has quit [Quit: paul0] 04:00:21 daniel__ [~daniel@p5082B004.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:07 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@205.233.82.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:01:57 -!- daniel___ [~daniel@p5082B2B8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:02:12 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.94.239] has joined #lisp 04:09:04 pjb: my version of your `best-fit' pasted the other day: http://paste.lisp.org/+2OOU 04:10:10 setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.199] has joined #lisp 04:10:56 mon_key: try more. I'm sure you can make it a 1000-line function. 04:11:35 -!- esden [~esden@repl.esden.net] has left #lisp 04:14:20 mon_key: why so complicated? 04:14:40 unless I'm missing something obvious which I well may 04:14:49 -!- anvandare [~anvandare@78-21-54-232.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:17:01 (defun best-fit (target seq) (iterate (for n in seq) (let ((delta (abs (- n target)))) (finding (list n delta) minimizing delta)))) 04:17:59 damn thing will cons a lot in (list n delta) damn iterate maintainer for not accepting my patch for (finding (values x y z) minimizing (multi-dimensional-objective x y z)) 04:18:20 but it was apparently "against the spirit of iterate" meh 04:20:37 RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@ool-457138a9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:20:58 or using CL only, (loop with best = nil best-n = nil for n in seq for delta = (abs (- n target)) if (or (null best) (< delta best)) (setq best delta best-n n) finally (return (list n delta))) 04:21:35 err return should be (list best-n best) 04:22:14 pjb: I'm _sure_ I can :P 04:23:46 mon_key: dont go all recursive on your ass, unless you trying to learn recursion IMHO, algorithms tend to kind of gravitate to being expressed best either through iteration or recursion, and one of the things of learning to program, is to develop intuition as to which approach to take 04:24:13 maxm-: was having fun going overboard. Though the immediate rationale was to allow vectors 04:24:49 usually if you trying recursion or iteration first, and it just does not flow naturally, then try the opposite way.. If both ways do not flow, then you have a more complex problem, and have to split it up.. Almost any code can be made elegant by splitting into smaller chunks 04:24:51 -!- drewc [~user@PC687f74269abb-WM0003D709793f.wbb.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:25:24 mon_key, if you want to support both, use mapping functions, that what they are there for 04:25:55 hopefully smart compiler would even unroll list and vector code into separate loops with enough optimizations, or will be able to figure out arg types and only leave one 04:27:23 I almost always use (map) nowadays, since it makes it easier to switch to vectors, and in fact usually I start by using vectors nowadays too, only use for lists is rapid prototyping and macros 04:27:36 -!- RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@ool-457138a9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: RomyEatsDrupal] 04:29:03 maxm-: I thought applying/reducing MIN, MAX, +, etc was a mapping? 04:29:25 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-69-201-186-74.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 04:29:44 -!- wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-134-75.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:29:51 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-134-75.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:35:07 -!- StrmSrfr [~user@208.72.159.205] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:35:33 StrmSrfr [~user@208.72.159.205] has joined #lisp 04:37:47 hikarudo [~hikarudo@201.86.31.232.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 04:38:40 -!- hikarudo [~hikarudo@201.86.31.232.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Client Quit] 04:42:34 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has joined #lisp 04:43:44 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-209-192.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 04:45:06 mon_key: map version will be something like (let (best-delta best-n) (map nil (lambda (n) (let ((delta (abs (- target n)))) (when (or (null best-delta) (< delta best-delta) (setq best-delta delta best-n n))))) seq) (list best-n best-delta)) 04:45:06 04:45:56 you can bother with (reduce) but then it would be less understandable IMHO since you'll have to store best-delta and best-n using 2 different methods rather then directly 04:47:51 in fact map version is the fastest one when supporting both vectors and lists, since SBCL would unroll it into 2 loops, once for each sequence type 04:48:26 maxm-: give that map version #(3 (asin -3)) as the seq arg 04:49:57 well if you have a requirement to support complex? 04:50:13 its in the stuff i pasted 04:50:24 :) 04:52:01 -!- Guest46462 [~Kron@69.166.20.161] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 04:52:11 well you'll just have to modify (- target n) to be pyphagorean distance 04:52:27 *maxm-* is not up to date on his complex arithmetic, but it woun't make function any more complex 04:52:56 No. but it would add some more verbosity :) 04:54:02 in fact isnt (abs complex complex) a pyphagorean distance? 04:54:10 You could make the distance function a parameter, then you might be able to generalize it for non-numbers, even. 04:54:30 RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@ool-457138a9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:54:53 (abs (- 3 (asin -3))) returns 4.8 which I assume is the right answer? 04:54:58 so it will work without changes 04:55:19 such that (= (apply #'+ ( )) ) ? 04:56:17 it should work as long as math works 04:56:39 anvandare [~anvandare@dD5770FA8.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 04:57:44 really the mapping functions don't care what operations you do, its all about "key" and "compare" operators, and key in our case is the distance/delta/whatever-you-call-it and compare is if one is better then the other 04:58:47 there is some branch of math that deals with that stuff (ie defining operators and how they are symmetrical or commutative or whatever the word is), but the sequence functions don't really care, it all looks the same to it.. The reversability you asking for is really property of the math system you choose 04:59:56 at least thats my take on it, /me is a colledge dropout, so my opinions on math science are more of "I remember reading about it on slashdot" type knowledge 05:00:07 maxm-: I get it. But your query was, "why so complex". Once you put in all the little checks and guards it gets complex. mapping or no. 05:00:44 i think lisp complex arithmetic is under-apreciated 05:01:31 i recently had to write code for "draw a smothed curve" aproximating a polygon, and it made stuff much easier.. I even added marshaling of complex<>QFloatF to commonqt 05:01:50 I only wish i know maths :) 05:02:13 google complex plane.. You just treat complex numbers as X,Y points 05:02:22 yeah. 05:02:30 abs(complex) = distance to origin... (abs (- c1 c2)) is distance 05:02:42 multiplying is same as rotation 05:03:04 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:04:28 so rotate a polygon around origin is basically substructing origin from all elements of the polygon, then multiplying by #c(x y) where x-y represents a degreee to rotate around 0,0 (to get it from radians I think atan returns it) 05:04:40 then add origin back to each element, and you done with rotation 05:04:54 much less code then languages that don't have complex math 05:11:10 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:12:01 -!- eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:16:12 PissedNu1lock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 05:18:24 -!- PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:18:25 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:20:50 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 05:22:26 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:28:28 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 05:30:08 karswell [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 05:31:25 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:31:38 -!- juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:33:00 leyyer_su [~user@222.209.249.247] has joined #lisp 05:33:47 juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 05:35:39 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 05:39:51 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-155-34.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 05:40:08 -!- ihyoyoung [raster@enlightenment2.osuosl.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:40:24 ihyoyoung [raster@enlightenment2.osuosl.org] has joined #lisp 05:43:05 maxm: FTR from spec: "Only reals can be ordered using the <, >, <=, and >= functions." so some coercion of complexes (i.e. with ABS) would be required. 05:44:21 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@189.247.126.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:46:07 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 05:46:57 marsell [~marsell@120.20.106.47] has joined #lisp 05:47:07 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:47:24 KingNato [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 05:50:57 -!- rcharle2 [~rcharles@dhcp145.gradapt1.iit.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:51:11 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:51:43 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 05:52:22 -!- hba [~hba@187.171.196.7] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:56:28 fe[nl]ix: you about? 05:57:30 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-wvluwxxbmjcrfsrq] has joined #lisp 05:59:05 I'm curious how much work might be involved in making (portions of) iolib portable to win32 06:05:35 -!- Harag [~phil@41.146.231.191] has quit 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has joined #lisp 06:45:20 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 06:46:20 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:46:35 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@118.210.125.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:46:45 good morning 06:56:00 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-96-235.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:56:19 jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.51.30] has joined #lisp 06:58:43 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-229-106.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:59:18 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Byebye.] 07:00:22 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:03:10 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:04:35 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-175-25.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:05:18 gko [gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:44 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-229-106.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:09:21 reb``` [user@nat/google/x-gntqvcvysivaouhj] has joined #lisp 07:09:41 -!- reb`` [user@nat/google/x-opkdwuvejwvzoohb] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:10:00 -!- cheezus [~Adium@70.50.58.10] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:11:53 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:16:00 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:17:08 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:18:38 tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:02 Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 07:20:01 H4ns [5ddb9f68@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.219.159.104] has joined #lisp 07:20:39 -!- ski_ [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:21:52 nostoi [~nostoi@6.Red-79-151-42.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 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the connection] 07:59:47 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@6.Red-79-151-42.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:01:28 _pw_ [~user@125.34.42.72] has joined #lisp 08:01:31 borkman` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:01:49 wolfpython [~wolf@180.109.56.199] has joined #lisp 08:02:05 -!- borkman` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:03:36 -!- borkman [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:05:21 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@103.246.106.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:05:37 -!- karswell [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:06:13 karswell [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:07:06 -!- alanpearce [~alan@home.alanpearce.co.uk] has quit [Quit: alanpearce] 08:08:51 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:09:15 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:10:13 good morning everyone 08:14:02 Amyn [~abennama@159.217.144.64] has joined #lisp 08:14:20 ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 08:16:57 e-user [e-user@nat/nokia/x-rbfxeliljrortxyn] has joined #lisp 08:17:00 -!- Athas [~athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:18:09 Joreji [~thomas@73-235.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:18:35 -!- Amyn [~abennama@159.217.144.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:19:43 Harag [~phil@41.146.231.191] has joined #lisp 08:19:51 BlankVerse [~pankajm@103.246.106.35] has joined #lisp 08:20:03 -!- am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:20:05 morning 08:20:10 -!- H4ns [5ddb9f68@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.219.159.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:20:25 heh one of the advantages of being unemployed, hacking through the night :-) 08:20:47 Amyn [~abennama@64.208.49.21] has joined #lisp 08:22:40 Amyn1 [~abennama@64.208.49.21] has joined #lisp 08:23:23 -!- Harag [~phil@41.146.231.191] has quit [Client Quit] 08:24:05 maxm-: i thought the advantage would be "hacking during the day" 08:25:18 -!- Amyn [~abennama@64.208.49.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:27:58 reb```` [user@nat/google/x-rjpsunflpakopriz] has joined #lisp 08:28:06 francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has joined #lisp 08:28:16 good reference: http://lisp-book.org/contents/chgc.pdf 08:28:22 -!- reb``` [user@nat/google/x-gntqvcvysivaouhj] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:28:28 Well you can hack all night because you don't have to show up at work at 8:30am and sound coherent. 08:28:49 waveman__: but then you won't be able to hack as well the next day 08:29:06 H4ns [4ffc849c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.252.132.156] has joined #lisp 08:29:10 well both ways work for me I went through 6 month period of strickly 5:30am wakeup no matter what regiment 08:30:07 decided to take a month easy 08:30:20 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.176] has joined #lisp 08:30:40 5:30am doesn't say much, all depends on how late you fall asleep 08:33:10 i tried shooting at around 10pm, but usually was buzzsawing like 7pm, 9pm, 2am, 8pm then up again 08:33:10 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:33:45 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:34:38 cfa [~cfa@unaffiliated/cfa] has joined #lisp 08:34:39 -!- DaDaDosPrompt [~DaDaDosPr@184.99.13.214] has quit [Quit: DaDaDosPrompt] 08:34:50 -!- gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:39:36 -!- francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:43:18 sylecn [~sylecn@180.121.156.28] has joined #lisp 08:48:24 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 08:48:45 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-euwiguhmvtjfhoxd] has joined #lisp 08:51:07 -!- surrounder [~user@d130031.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:51:10 -!- jaminja [~jaminja@unaffiliated/jaminja] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:57:05 Harag [~phil@41.146.231.191] has joined #lisp 08:57:14 -!- Harag [~phil@41.146.231.191] has left #lisp 08:57:52 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:58:55 -!- doritos [~joshua@c-76-118-155-244.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:58:56 hagish [~hagish@p57A476F8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:59:03 -!- hagish [~hagish@p57A476F8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:00:17 Soulman [~knute@175.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:02:30 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 09:03:11 TrystamWrk [~tristamwr@2620:0:2820:b03:214:22ff:fe45:5204] has joined #lisp 09:04:13 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@2620:0:2820:b03:214:22ff:fe45:5204] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:04:16 stassats: When you're hot you're hot. If I'm hot at 11pm I can go for it. BTW I an retired rather than unemployed but whatever, 09:08:55 hi Blkt 09:09:00 hi fe[nl]ix 09:09:23 Ralith: hlavaty already started porting to win32, he knows better 09:09:26 surrounder [~surrounde@d130031.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 09:09:35 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:09:54 wonderful! 09:16:04 benkard_ [~benkard@mnch-d9bdc460.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:19:11 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d854b74.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:19:12 -!- benkard_ is now known as benkard 09:21:50 -!- surrounder [~surrounde@d130031.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:23:10 waveman__: but sleep can do wonders 09:23:34 it's like you're actually thinking on your problem while asleep 09:25:11 surrounder [~surrounde@d130031.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 09:26:42 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-209-192.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:27:25 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 09:31:13 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:32:04 gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:35:48 -!- leyyer_su [~user@222.209.249.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:38:10 -!- _pw_ [~user@125.34.42.72] has left #lisp 09:45:23 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:46:58 -!- akovalen` [~anton@95.72.100.120] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:48:49 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:49:31 cfy [~cfy@122.228.135.216] has joined #lisp 09:49:31 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.135.216] has quit [Changing host] 09:49:31 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 09:51:50 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-182-173.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:58:25 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:58:38 cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.76] has joined #lisp 09:58:38 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.76] has quit [Changing host] 09:58:38 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 09:59:32 gienah [~mwright@ppp121-44-44-207.lns20.syd6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:00:22 anddam [~anddam@151.70.113.45] has joined #lisp 10:00:27 hello 10:01:42 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:02:18 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:04:20 -!- aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:04:25 -!- easytiger [~gerry@88.211.44.234] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:04:42 -!- gko [gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:05:21 -!- wolfpython [~wolf@180.109.56.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:07:58 -!- rgrinberg [~rudi@24.52.246.61] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:08:09 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 10:08:47 rgrinberg [~rudi@24.52.246.61] has joined #lisp 10:09:35 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 10:10:08 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:15:43 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-182-173.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 10:16:54 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:17:04 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-182-173.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:17:18 akovalenko [~anton@95.72.174.168] has joined #lisp 10:19:52 Harag [~phil@41.146.231.191] has joined #lisp 10:27:23 -!- p_l [plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-utmqvumnydalakwp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:33:07 -!- anvandare [~anvandare@dD5770FA8.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:33:51 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:35:55 hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:37:25 -!- austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:41:35 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.44.226] has joined #lisp 10:43:16 -!- juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:43:36 what does (time (values 1 2 3)) outputs to you? 10:43:44 to "any" of you 10:44:31 (VALUES 1 2 3) took 3 microseconds (0.000003 seconds) to run with 8 available CPU cores. During that period, 0 microseconds (0.000000 seconds) were spent in user mode 0 microseconds (0.000000 seconds) were spent in system mode. 1 ; 2 ; 3 10:44:38 100.00% CPU 10:44:39 1,514 processor cycles 10:44:50 All other are zeros. 10:45:25 so it returns 1 2 and 3, not only 1 10:45:28 _Clearly, the overhead of the benchmark is orders of magnitude greater than the actual time needed to evaluate (values 1 2 3). 10:45:31 is that correct pjb? 10:45:33 Blkt: lyes. 10:45:45 thanks 10:45:47 time form => result* ; results---the values returned by the form. 10:46:13 I read that on HyperSpec 10:46:17 ABCL does not that though 10:46:23 or 10:46:24 well 10:46:33 If it doesn't, it's a conformance bug. 10:46:34 maybe it does and I wronged something in the code 10:46:39 anvandare [~anvandare@dD5770EB2.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 10:46:41 marsell [~marsell@120.18.28.111] has joined #lisp 10:46:42 Blkt: but: (let ((x (values 1 2 3))) x) => 1 10:46:49 -!- marsell [~marsell@120.18.28.111] has quit [Client Quit] 10:47:05 (assert (= 3 (length (multiple-value-list (time (values 1 2 3)))))) 10:47:21 I know H4ns 10:47:26 let me check my code 10:47:26 Blkt: ok 10:48:18 -!- EyesIsServer [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:48:42 yes, it's a conformance bug 10:49:21 could anyone paste me an implementation of time in some other CL distribution? 10:49:37 which ones do you have already? 10:49:41 ABCL only 10:50:14 so you mean the get-universal-time function? 10:50:31 no, just time 10:50:49 I just M-. it 10:52:02 Blkt: clisp time is in http://clisp.hg.sourceforge.net/hgweb/clisp/clisp/file/6afcecc6bb2c/src/macros2.lisp 10:52:09 thanks 10:52:25 there it is 10:53:24 the secret is unwind-protect... 10:53:59 I see 10:54:07 damnit, i was trying to find clisp's time :( 10:54:17 vit's nice to read such code 10:57:20 it* 10:58:50 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 10:59:01 juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 11:00:47 -!- frozencemetery [~frozencem@128.237.242.21] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:01:26 Yuuhi [benni@p54839DF8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:03:23 p_l [plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-gxutxzfgbdajgroc] has joined #lisp 11:07:11 hi all 11:07:22 pjb, ping ? 11:07:52 ... damn, that was some lengthy reboot 11:09:56 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@103.246.106.35] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:10:05 how do I open HyperSpec pages in Emacs? I mean the real pages, hyperspec-lookup works fine 11:13:22 Anyone here use macros big time? I have been using lisp for about five years and still learning. My pgms are getting a lot more abstract and general but still not many macros. 11:14:55 waveman__: nothing wrong with that at all. 11:15:14 waveman__: have you read "on lisp" yet? 11:16:19 Yes I read "On Lisp" twice and I was very impressed. 11:16:21 hakzsam: pong 11:16:38 On Lisp is available online for free BTW 11:17:08 waveman__: ok, then you should know enough about macros. i'd not be alarmed :) 11:17:28 FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 11:17:32 added an allegro example to that tco doc 11:19:21 kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.237.227] has joined #lisp 11:19:40 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 11:29:24 -!- waveman__ [~tim@124.170.43.134] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:29:45 KingNato_ [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 11:32:04 -!- KingNato [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 11:32:18 KingNato [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 11:32:42 frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 11:34:19 -!- KingNato_ [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:35:11 KingNato_ [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 11:37:16 -!- KingNato_ [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:37:24 -!- anddam [~anddam@151.70.113.45] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:38:47 -!- KingNato [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:41:26 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-182-173.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 11:49:14 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:52:47 xharkonnen [~xharkonne@2.26.51.144] has joined #lisp 11:53:29 xharkonnen_ [~xharkonne@2.26.51.144] has joined #lisp 11:53:44 -!- xharkonnen_ [~xharkonne@2.26.51.144] has quit [Client Quit] 11:54:47 jaminja [~jaminja@host31-52-25-64.range31-52.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:54:47 -!- jaminja [~jaminja@host31-52-25-64.range31-52.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 11:54:47 jaminja [~jaminja@unaffiliated/jaminja] has joined #lisp 11:55:02 replore [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:56:19 cheezus [~Adium@70.50.58.10] has joined #lisp 12:04:50 spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 12:05:05 -!- cheezus [~Adium@70.50.58.10] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:05:20 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:08:19 aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 12:08:24 -!- kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.237.227] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:09:56 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-174-248.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:09:58 -!- frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:12:25 -!- Harag [~phil@41.146.231.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:16:02 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 12:16:55 Harag [~phil@41.146.231.191] has joined #lisp 12:20:19 replore [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:23:12 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:26:06 tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-74-240-217-89.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:45 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-43568cfa.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:27:47 blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-43568cfa.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:59 -!- tsuru [~charlie@50.9.237.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:28:21 austinh [~austinh@67.189.92.40] has joined #lisp 12:31:37 McRibbit [~user@zaza2.ida.liu.se] has joined #lisp 12:33:36 H4ns_ [5b3d577e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.61.87.126] has joined #lisp 12:33:54 -!- H4ns [4ffc849c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.252.132.156] has quit [Disconnected by services] 12:33:56 -!- H4ns_ is now known as H4ns 12:34:10 -!- Joreji [~thomas@73-235.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:37:02 pnq [~nick@ACA24017.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 12:37:20 hmmm 12:38:12 hmmm? 12:38:43 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:38:46 Shouldn't encode-universal-time with a timezone of 0 be converted to a constant by the compiler? 12:38:52 i mean, with constant arguments. 12:39:13 It could. 12:41:03 pjb: which do? 12:41:15 -!- superflit [~superflit@71.208.204.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:44:27 cheezus [~Adium@70.50.58.10] has joined #lisp 12:47:03 those that bothered to mark e-u-t as pure, so probably none of them 12:48:10 peterhil` [~peterhil@GGYYKMCDXIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 12:49:47 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 12:50:09 benkard_ [~benkard@mnch-5d854da8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:50:50 -!- H4ns [5b3d577e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.61.87.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:51:49 cmm: What does that mean? 12:53:19 -!- cheezus [~Adium@70.50.58.10] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:53:25 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-d9bdc460.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:53:25 -!- benkard_ is now known as benkard 12:56:06 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:56:56 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-129.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 12:58:45 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-40.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:58:57 coyo [kvirc@pool-71-164-173-28.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:57 -!- coyo [kvirc@pool-71-164-173-28.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 12:58:57 coyo [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 12:59:04 -!- jaminja [~jaminja@unaffiliated/jaminja] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:59:05 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-40.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:01:52 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA24017.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:02:25 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-40.netcologne.de] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:02:32 -!- homie` is now known as homie 13:02:33 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:03:51 prip_ [~foo@host233-122-dynamic.53-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:05:10 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:06:02 -!- prip [~foo@host233-122-dynamic.53-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:06:45 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 13:08:41 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:09:35 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-wvluwxxbmjcrfsrq] has left #lisp 13:15:01 francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has joined #lisp 13:15:20 -!- blackwol` is now known as blackwolf 13:15:30 -!- coyo [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:15:51 leyyer_su [~user@222.212.244.234] has joined #lisp 13:18:13 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 13:19:49 -!- francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:20:28 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:20:57 Joreji [~thomas@74-112.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:24:56 Xach: never mind, at least sbcl has a defknown declaration for e-u-t. it's "flashable" (dunno quite what that means) but not "foldable" (which is what would have the effect you seek, I think) 13:25:05 *flushable 13:26:36 cmm: flushable == no one will cry when it's not called (~ no visible side effects *except* the result) 13:28:02 akovalenko: what's the difference with foldable, then? 13:28:29 To achieve a partially "foldable" e-u-t, seems like the special case should first be transformed into some (%e-u-t-with-timezone), and *then* marked as foldable 13:29:04 ah 13:29:08 thanks, akovalenko 13:29:14 cool 13:29:23 cmm: this one timezone dependency is a wonderful illustration of flushable v. foldable 13:30:06 e-u-t is in no way "pure functional", 'cause it depends on your location. And yet any call can be omitted safely, if the result is not used. 13:30:20 Well, with a TZ of 0, it is. 13:30:23 ah, so flushable is more to enable dead code elimination and such? 13:30:48 cmm: I would say "and nothing more" :) 13:30:54 ok :) 13:30:55 or other tz, since they're not abstract. 13:30:58 -!- Joreji [~thomas@74-112.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:34:15 oudeis [~oudeis@93-172-31-175.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 13:36:52 -!- turnipseed [~cms@50.43.55.69] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:37:31 Kron__ [~Kron@129-97-120-129.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 13:38:03 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-129.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:38:20 setmeaway2 [setmeaway3@118.45.149.199] has joined #lisp 13:38:36 dnolen [~davidnole@98.14.92.234] has joined #lisp 13:38:45 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.199] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:38:49 -!- Krystof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:39:19 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-40.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:39:23 Isn't (subtypep '(member :foo) 'keyword) return T? 13:39:30 I mena "shouldn't" 13:39:47 <|3b|> doesn't member return a list? 13:40:00 SBCL returns NIL, while CLISP, CCL and ECL return T 13:40:07 H4ns [5b3d577e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.61.87.126] has joined #lisp 13:40:26 francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has joined #lisp 13:40:30 frozencemetery [~frozencem@128.237.227.127] has joined #lisp 13:40:44 <|3b|> ah, type, not function call 13:40:48 yeah 13:40:51 *|3b|* isn't awake yet, i guess 13:41:21 turnipseed [~cms@static-50-43-55-69.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:23 I personally believe SBCL is in the wrong here, although it's certainly possible that the standard allows for this. 13:41:27 I recall much discussion about sbcl subtypep, but almost none of the specifics. 13:41:59 <|3b|> it is allowed to return false,false for (member ...) 13:42:33 |3b|: oh, i see 13:43:43 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:45:59 Upgrading Ubuntu... Nice downloading the packages at 4 MB/s 13:46:23 4377 kB/s 13:46:48 <|3b|> not like it matters, will still take ages to unpack/install it all :p 13:47:04 I guess 13:47:20 it only took a few minutes to download it all... Upgrade now starting... 13:48:05 gko [gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:29 Is it considered good style to validate into arguments using CHECK-TYPE on function entry? 13:48:37 s/into/input/ 13:48:50 loke: When it's useful, yeah. 13:48:54 <|3b|> not an unreasonable thing to do 13:49:01 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@93-172-31-175.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:49:09 loke: Doing it all the time can make the code brittle. 13:49:11 Xach: I generally do it on most functions that are exported 13:49:35 The error messages becomes much cleaner when people call them. 13:50:46 Krystof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 13:52:19 -!- gienah [~mwright@ppp121-44-44-207.lns20.syd6.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:52:25 nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:34 G'morning all. 13:53:44 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.176] has quit [Quit: Offline] 13:56:28 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.51.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:56:34 *Fade* waves 13:58:21 ngz [~user@79.80.144.201] has joined #lisp 13:58:22 msponge [~msponge@31-34-91.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 14:00:07 urandom__ [~user@p548A5ECE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:48 hi nyef 14:01:45 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.183.181] has joined #lisp 14:02:22 So, I've been thinking about "classical" lisp multiprocessing, specifically the scheduler and "wait functions". 14:02:57 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:03:32 While a process is "waiting", the scheduler calls a "wait function", in the context of the scheduler process, to do background processing, determine if the process should resume, and stuff like that. 14:04:20 The lowest-level function that causes a process to "wait" is, so far as I have been able to determine, called PROCESS-WAIT. 14:04:39 sounds like so-called green threads 14:05:09 They are, but with asynchronous context switches. 14:05:23 nyef: that's how cmucl's mp works. 14:05:26 There can be any number of functions "wrapped" around PROCESS-WAIT, such as the CLIM example of STREAM-INPUT-WAIT. 14:05:30 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-euwiguhmvtjfhoxd] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:05:37 What is an appropriate term for such functions? 14:05:49 They cause the process to wait, but are not themselves "wait functions". 14:05:53 nyef: wait function? 14:05:53 What are they? 14:05:57 nyef: blocking functions? 14:06:19 Are they a kind of future? 14:06:58 hikarudo [~hikarudo@200.175.194.51.dynamic.dialup.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 14:07:48 H4ns: The "wait function" is the bit that executes in the scheduler process, and are given as parameters to PROCESS-WAIT and friends, so PROCESS-WAIT and friends cannot also be "wait functions". 14:08:13 kpreid: Hrm. Not a horrible term, I suppose. 14:08:25 nyef: agreed. ignore me. 14:08:54 H4ns: For what it's worth, I originally thought that way around, until I actually read the relevant chapter in "chine nual". 14:09:12 chrchr :) 14:09:14 nyef: $HIBERNATE? 14:09:29 (iirc the subroutine) 14:09:40 jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.51.30] has joined #lisp 14:09:44 p_l: ... VMS or similar? 14:10:12 $HIBERNATE suspends the process until an ast arrives. 14:10:27 nyef: that's VMS' routine for putting a process into "hibernated" mode, till it's woken by a certain possible events (in form of ASTs) 14:10:49 (ast == asynchronous system trap == interrupt on a process level) 14:10:58 ...not an abstract syntax tree. 14:11:12 Yeah, I remember a little bit about how VMS works. 14:11:28 the AST can be result of previous call, or can be a call made to this process by something else (with process being a "service" this way) 14:11:33 -!- aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 14:11:49 brb 14:11:51 The thing is, these functions mostly show up in the context of getting input events in CLIM. 14:12:15 And there's typically a timeout available, and so on. 14:12:33 I only met a little bit of VMS in my youth (I think the library catalog terminals used it?), and I mainly recall how its %FNORD-I-FLIBBERTIGIBIT[9] stuff reached MovieOS levels of Vaguely Meaningful Technical Gabble. 14:13:05 it made such an impression on me that I got the idea to make my own version, but I failed to be sufficiently inventive. 14:13:11 Heh. Yeah, I was somewhat put out when they replaced all of the old amber-screen library catalog terminals with win9x machines. 14:13:27 (I have never been good at greebling.) 14:13:44 -!- hugod [~hugod@70.24.179.235] has quit [Quit: hugod] 14:13:47 -!- Blkt [~user@89.96.199.46] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:14:27 hugod [~hugod@70.24.179.235] has joined #lisp 14:14:38 nyef: and there was one special terminal which actually had an INTERNET connection. 14:14:48 sabalaba [~sabalaba_@141.212.58.64] has joined #lisp 14:15:10 there was some kind of directory on it of online services, and you could telnet to them. I played a MUD for the first time there. 14:15:23 Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:15:35 IIRC SLIME can have multiple REPL connections open, right? 14:15:43 (independent, that is) 14:16:01 Oh, all of the terminals I found had TELNET. From there you could hit up a MUD, or a shell account if you wanted to browse the web or use a real MUD client or check your email or whatever... 14:16:05 can slime show multiple inspect buffers? 14:17:27 nyef: all the other terminals were catalog only. first they ran interfaces that were of the "onscreen menu plus a command line" sort, then they moved to a menu-bar-navigated-by-arrow-keys style 14:17:54 you could even connect to that one from home 14:17:56 Mmm. ISTR telnet being buried in something like "other databases". 14:18:19 search for and reserve books from your home computer! we're living in the future, man! 14:18:21 flip214: I don't think so. 14:19:01 cesarbp [~cbolano@189.247.126.160] has joined #lisp 14:19:03 would need different socket for each wouldn't it? 14:19:03 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 14:19:07 So, best suggestion thus far on PROCESS-WAIT and friends is "blocking function", which makes a certain amount of sense but seems to me to have connotations that I'm not fond of? 14:19:32 you can have separate REPLs for separate inferior lisps; not sure about within one 14:19:40 nyef: don't these functions yield? 14:19:54 ... yes. Yes, they do yield. 14:19:55 nyef: it's blocking WRT the lisp process but not the OS process... 14:20:07 nyef: so maybe they are yielding functions? 14:20:10 if that's what's concerning you. you have two schedulers here 14:20:24 so since one is implemented on the other -- 14:20:39 -!- Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: rebooting] 14:20:41 nyef: in cmucl mp, there is yield which invokes the scheduler without specifying a wait function. 14:20:44 kpreid: No, no... I'm more concerned about the natural language association. 14:20:46 dl` [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 14:21:16 If one SBCL thread is pushing and popping items off a list, is it safe for another thread to traverse the list with (dolist (x list) ... )? 14:21:34 reb````: think about it, hardly 14:21:47 reb````: x86 (32 and 64) => safe 14:21:53 (without protecting the list with a mutex, that is) 14:21:58 reb````: Just pushing and popping? The threads will desynch, obviously, but it shouldn't be actively dangerous. 14:22:19 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 14:22:22 Umm, what does the word "desynch" mean here? 14:22:26 Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:22:30 Now, if you had multiple writers, then you'd have a problem. 14:22:38 Desynchronize. 14:22:43 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@98.14.92.234] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 14:22:57 I think my question boils down to whether pointer writes are atomic. 14:23:00 Basically, the reader thread would get the list at one particular point in time. 14:23:08 reb````: not 14:23:14 reb````: there are no pointers in sbcl 14:23:20 Umm... what? 14:23:28 reb````: you seem to want to know whether variable rebinds are atomic 14:23:28 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.167.172] has joined #lisp 14:23:30 OK, longword writes. 14:23:41 At the VM level, there are /definitely/ pointery things. 14:23:54 nyef: certainly so, but we are in lists and dolist realm 14:23:56 reb````: it boils down to memory visibility from different CPUs. X86 have in-order commits.. 14:24:22 billitch [~billitch@88.183.33.86] has joined #lisp 14:24:36 H4ns: We are in assignment-to-aligned-machine-word-memory-area realm. 14:24:37 reb````: if you rebind the initial value that you've used in a dolist, the dolist won't notice. it also won't notice when you rebind the variable to a later element in the list 14:24:47 nyef: no. :) 14:25:00 I have several threads doing push/pop on a list, protected by a mutex. I have a print-object function for the data structure holding the list. 14:25:01 H4ns: but what push does is construct a fresh cons and then write a reference to it into a variable. then the question is only and entirely: is that reference writing (and reading) atomic? and nyef is answering: yes it is. 14:25:11 gamzovicov [5db78cb7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.183.140.183] has joined #lisp 14:25:28 kpreid: correct, no dissent here. it won't affect a dolist going on in another thread. 14:25:35 I want to remove locking from the print-object function and want to know if my Lisp may crash. 14:25:42 reb````: no. 14:25:43 *akovalenko* thinks memory model requirements are somewhat weak here: even out-of-order commits were acceptable, as long as dependent writes are not reordered with their dependencies.. 14:26:19 H4ns: The problem is expressed in terms of PUSH, POP, and DOLIST, but the critical issue is the behavior of storing and loading a boxed lisp object. 14:26:34 *nyef* winces. 14:26:41 Thank you, akovalenko. I forgot about that. 14:27:04 reb````: You need a memory barrier between creating the cons cell and storing the new list head pointer. 14:27:04 nyef: i still don't think so. the question is whether resetting a global binding is atomic or not. but hey, i'm just an app programmer. 14:28:17 reb````: I'm not certain if you need that barrier on x86oids, but you might for PPC, and definitely do for the general case. 14:28:21 reb````: don't let that confuse you. understand that push and pop are about changing the binding of a variable. in the push case, first there is a cons and then there is a variable rebind. in case of pop, there is just a rebind. 14:28:33 H4ns: word-sized aligned writes are much more "out of question" than memory ordering model. I can remember some hw that differs on the latter issue, but not the former :) 14:29:05 -!- StrmSrfr [~user@208.72.159.205] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:29:13 cheezus [~Adium@70.50.58.10] has joined #lisp 14:29:23 reb````: so if you, in another thread, got a handle on the list, that list (and the binding that you have on it) won't be affected by pushes and pops. 14:29:28 StrmSrfr [~user@208.72.159.205] has joined #lisp 14:29:53 isn't this a beautiful syntax: http://paste.lisp.org/display/125320 ? 14:30:01 -!- lnostdal_ [~Lars@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:30:02 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.45.15] has left #lisp 14:30:05 ... It's been far too long since I've had to think seriously about memory barrier semantics. 14:30:43 How can a poor hacker figure this stuff out ... sigh. 14:31:18 francogrex: looks like it's been minified and reexpanded, so I wouldn't recommend taking it as an example of good style... 14:31:54 CAS is always a memory barrier, though, so having an atomic-push operation (safe for multiple writers) should be sufficient to keep you out of trouble on x86oids. 14:32:17 reb````: it is really pretty easy. don't worry about memory barriers. let them answer the question whether changing a global binding is atomic or not :) 14:32:41 Sadly, that's not the end of my locking questions ... 14:32:47 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.167.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:33:01 wait, that's some kind of lisp-in-javascript thing's output, isn't it; it's got CL-style format and car/cadr implying such a runtime library 14:33:02 -!- Kron__ [~Kron@129-97-120-129.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:33:24 kpreid: it's the output of parenscript 14:33:48 how does one change the listeners style in mcclim ? 14:34:30 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-155-34.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:47 My print-object function also executes (if (connection worker) ... ) where connection is a CLOS accessor function. Other threads might be executing (setf (connection worker) ... ) while holding a lock. Is it crash safe for my print-object function to "read" connection? 14:34:48 sometimes parenscript cannot find / translate the equivalent function, so it 'javascriptize' the lisp function... quite ugly 14:35:08 The storage for any slot, bound or not, never crosses a cache line. Assignments are thus atomic. Visibility to other threads, however, can be a problem without suitable cache synchronization. 14:35:19 implementing CL-semantics keyword args as javascript code is always going to be ugly 14:35:45 By the way, this is on 64-bit x86 hardware .... 14:35:51 Umm... CLOS and threads? I'm going to run away now. I have enough trouble with threads without bringing PCL guts into the mess. 14:35:51 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:35:56 JS idiom would be to have rk4Sir({s0: 0.467034, i0: 0.0003, ...}) instead of that pair stuff 14:36:04 it would probably be faster all the way around 14:36:21 so we're talking about whether 64-bit pointer values ... 14:36:27 lnostdal_ [~Lars@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 14:36:29 ... are safe. 14:36:40 Yes, for some value of "safe". 14:37:01 -!- dl` is now known as dl 14:37:06 With a single writer thread, they're reasonably okay. With multiple writer threads, you will want to CAS them. 14:37:20 kpreid: that output is garbage it doesn't compile or run on anything, it's just syntax on paper 14:37:25 dlowe [dlowe@nat/google/x-dnlidfuasgekttlc] has joined #lisp 14:37:37 ah. 14:37:50 well, it makes sense *other* than the format car cadr stuff 14:37:54 Hello! Has anyone used clack&caveman and built website using it? I'm looking for any tutorial. 14:37:59 All writing is protected by a mutex. I'm just wondering whether my print-object reader needs to take the lock to prevent crashes. 14:38:12 Kron [~Kron@129-97-120-129.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 14:38:15 yes... the original (defun rk4-sir (&key S0 I0 a b h N) ... 14:38:28 It's mostly used for debugging, so getting stale data is OK. 14:38:38 -!- Kron is now known as Guest21731 14:38:47 reb````: try to understand what's happening. 14:38:53 wishbone4 [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:55 -!- Guest21731 is now known as Kron_ 14:39:16 Is there an SBCL internals document that describes this stuff in detail? 14:39:19 reb````: so you're reading the binding, which is atomic, and (internally in the dolist) assign that to an iteration variable 14:39:31 reb````: then that iteration variable is advanced, using cdr 14:39:46 reb````: it has nothing to do with sbcl, really. it is just about how a cons list works. 14:40:05 milanj [~milanj_@109-93-205-53.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 14:40:26 No, that's not sufficient, because on some hardware the 64-bit pointer can be seen half-written by other threads. 14:41:02 reb````: well, if you believe so, i'll give the word to those folks who help you complicate the matters. enjoy. 14:43:34 No, I think I don't believe so in this case .... 14:44:26 ... Under what circumstances would an aligned 64-bit pointer only be half-written? 14:45:00 I think it's probably OK, but I'd have to check the Intel hardware manual. 14:45:19 x86 is safe here 14:45:33 I mean, I could see it if it straddled a cache line, but aligned pointers can't do that. 14:46:16 Yes, sounds reasonable ... and all SBCL pointers are aligned. 14:46:58 nyef: these days, cache doesn't matter much on ordering and visibility (MESI protocol enforces full coherency anyway). What can be hard is CPU's out-of-order execution 14:47:10 akovalenko: Hence needing a barrier. 14:47:14 Are there garbage collection issues here as well? 14:47:28 -!- gamzovicov [5db78cb7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.183.140.183] has left #lisp 14:48:02 -!- francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:48:15 benkard_ [~benkard@mnch-d9bdc267.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:19 reb````: Shouldn't be, the GC forces a full barrier on each thread, and any thread doing anything that the GC wouldn't like needs to do it in p-a or without-gcing or without-interrupts. 14:48:21 No, I think probably not ... out of date data in one CPU should cause that data to be retained. 14:48:56 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.161.127] has joined #lisp 14:49:33 reb````: when you're implementing a garbage collector, you'll certainly have to deal with memory barriers. When there *is* already a working GC, the definition of "working" includes an ability to reach whatever you are able to reach from any thread :) 14:49:41 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.183.181] has quit [Quit: Offline] 14:50:47 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:51:33 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d854da8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:51:33 -!- benkard_ is now known as benkard 14:51:57 akovalenko: yup, makes sense. 14:55:04 Just get rid of threads, and the problem is solved. :) 15:01:19 cgo [~user@99-123-152-51.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:01 -!- sylecn [~sylecn@180.121.156.28] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:04:31 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 15:04:35 -!- turnipseed [~cms@static-50-43-55-69.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:06:41 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-182-113-42.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:19 -!- McRibbit [~user@zaza2.ida.liu.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:08:20 -!- lanthan [~ze@i5E878529.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:10:33 flip215 [~marek@86.59.100.100] has joined #lisp 15:10:33 -!- flip215 [~marek@86.59.100.100] has quit [Changing host] 15:10:33 flip215 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 15:11:25 RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@ool-457138a9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:17 -!- flip215 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:12:18 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:12:50 flip214 [~marek@86.59.100.100] has joined #lisp 15:12:50 -!- flip214 [~marek@86.59.100.100] has quit [Changing host] 15:12:50 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 15:12:53 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-182-113-42.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:13:56 troydm [~troydm@unaffiliated/troydm] has joined #lisp 15:14:07 how can i import functions from package 15:14:15 for example if i write 15:14:20 (require 'usocket) 15:14:45 then to use usocket packages functions i have to always write usocket:functionName 15:15:01 how can import functions from package? 15:15:15 -!- frozencemetery [~frozencem@128.237.227.127] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:15:29 When you define your own package, include :usocket in the :use clause. 15:15:59 Or cherry-pick particular symbols via an :import-from clause. 15:17:49 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has left #lisp 15:17:52 *nyef* isn't going to touch the mistaking of a module for a package, or how to make this work when you don't define a custom package for your code. 15:18:36 nyef: ok thx :) 15:18:46 -!- RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@ool-457138a9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: RomyEatsDrupal] 15:18:48 Actually, you might not have mistaken a module for a package there... 15:18:55 Anyway, good luck. 15:21:50 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-129.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:22:37 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-sztmcwutxszlktko] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:22:58 oudeis [~oudeis@82.166.22.138] has joined #lisp 15:23:31 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-96-235.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:26 frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 15:28:20 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.45.15] has joined #lisp 15:30:40 -!- cheezus [~Adium@70.50.58.10] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:34:32 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.89] has joined #lisp 15:34:33 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.89] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:34:52 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.140] has joined #lisp 15:36:47 EyesIsServer [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 15:37:08 coyo [kvirc@pool-71-164-173-28.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:08 -!- coyo [kvirc@pool-71-164-173-28.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:37:08 coyo [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 15:38:23 am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has joined #lisp 15:38:28 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@82.166.22.138] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:38:31 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-72-43-20-246.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:39:08 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:39:18 -!- EyesIsServer [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:39:33 EyesIsServer [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 15:41:15 RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@ool-457138a9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:58 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:43:00 dto [~dto@96.252.89.130] has joined #lisp 15:48:15 schell [~schellsci@75-101-46-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:23 -!- schell [~schellsci@75-101-46-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:01:40 jaminja [~jaminja@85.17.232.145] has joined #lisp 16:01:40 -!- jaminja [~jaminja@85.17.232.145] has quit [Changing host] 16:01:40 jaminja [~jaminja@unaffiliated/jaminja] has joined #lisp 16:07:59 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:08:23 dx_kid [~quassel@223.186.69.51] has joined #lisp 16:10:05 -!- Amyn1 [~abennama@64.208.49.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:12:50 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 16:15:20 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:15:28 superflit [~superflit@71-208-211-204.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:18 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 16:18:04 -!- Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: going home] 16:19:44 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:20:39 Soulman1 [~knute@175.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:20:57 -!- am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:21:08 -!- frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:22:09 -!- Soulman [~knute@175.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:23:13 Kron [~Kron@129-97-120-129.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 16:23:15 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.94.239] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:23:39 -!- Kron is now known as Guest50508 16:23:40 -!- anvandare [~anvandare@dD5770EB2.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:23:45 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:24:08 -!- Guest50508 is now known as Kron_ 16:26:48 If you have a function that is only used by one other function--you've broken it out for clarity--do you generally use flet or defun? Are there any other tradeoffs or rules-of-thumb for that? 16:27:09 -!- jaminja [~jaminja@unaffiliated/jaminja] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:27:43 I nearly always use defun 16:27:54 it's much more debugger friendly 16:28:25 Same here. I feel like defun is clearer, unless I have some special reason to use flet, but I like that flet will hide those functions and make it clear in the source that they aren't used elsewhere. 16:28:31 flet I typically only use within macros 16:28:42 debugger-friendly is a strong argument, IMO 16:29:04 it's more friendly in general; less nesting when you're reading the function definition 16:29:26 also if you're doing some clever state machine stuff it can be nice to keep all those tiny functions out of the global space 16:29:55 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.161.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:30:07 i did a quick proof of concept recently and used labels in this sort of situation -- but only because i didn't define a package 16:30:25 that's an edge case though 16:31:07 I've never really felt comfortable with how I've organized my Lisp code. e.g., how things are separated into files (or even packages, for that matter) 16:31:54 jaminja [~jaminja@unaffiliated/jaminja] has joined #lisp 16:32:05 flet or labels is useful when they are closures, ie. when you use in those functions outer lexical variables. 16:33:20 -!- dx_kid [~quassel@223.186.69.51] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:34:39 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Byebye.] 16:35:28 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.86.40] has joined #lisp 16:36:12 anvandare [~anvandare@dD5770868.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 16:36:26 benkard_ [~benkard@mnch-4d04fd66.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:12 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-001-201.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:57 benkard__ [~benkard@mnch-5d86899c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:43 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-d9bdc267.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:39:48 pearle [~pearle@blk-224-178-238.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 16:40:29 benkard [~benkard@mnch-4d04ed1e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:35 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-208-211-204.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:41:45 superflit [~superflit@140.226.4.159] has joined #lisp 16:42:03 -!- benkard_ [~benkard@mnch-4d04fd66.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:43:01 -!- benkard__ [~benkard@mnch-5d86899c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:45:48 -!- RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@ool-457138a9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: RomyEatsDrupal] 16:46:01 -!- spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Quit: spacefrogg] 16:46:05 -!- pearle [~pearle@blk-224-178-238.eastlink.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:50:40 spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 16:51:46 slash_ [~unknown@p54A8D6F1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:46 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.187.102] has joined #lisp 16:54:56 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.44.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:55:07 -!- msponge [~msponge@31-34-91.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: msponge] 16:57:05 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:09 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:57:10 -!- tritchey_ is now known as tritchey 16:58:21 Saeren_ [~saeren@mail.skepsi.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:26 manenko [~user@94.232.208.225] has joined #lisp 16:58:27 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:58:30 -!- ngz [~user@79.80.144.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:58:32 -!- Saeren [~saeren@mail.skepsi.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:58:35 -!- manenko [~user@94.232.208.225] has quit [Client Quit] 17:00:05 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-9-142.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:00:09 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-9-142.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Changing host] 17:00:09 insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 17:00:36 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:01:00 frozencemetery [~frozencem@128.237.227.127] has joined #lisp 17:02:06 are any of you guys regular users of redshank? 17:03:24 -!- cfa [~cfa@unaffiliated/cfa] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:03:26 me loads it always but never came to use it actually 17:03:28 Any SBCL hackers here? 17:03:31 msponge [~msponge@31-34-91.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 17:04:32 I think there's a bug in the garbage collector. 17:04:44 benkard_ [~benkard@mnch-5d8566c8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:05 eheh 17:06:22 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.187.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:07:19 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:07:25 pearle [~pearle@blk-224-178-238.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 17:07:58 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-4d04ed1e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:07:58 -!- benkard_ is now known as benkard 17:08:54 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-155-34.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 17:10:41 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:03 wohooo, clim-listener loads my png files now 17:11:05 eheh 17:12:55 drewc [~user@PC687f74269abb-WM0003D709793f.wbb.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:13:08 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-177-201-46.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:30 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-129.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:22:47 hagish [~hagish@p57A476F8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:26 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #lisp 17:24:42 -!- e-user [e-user@nat/nokia/x-rbfxeliljrortxyn] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:24:50 reb````: I KNOW there are bugs in the garbage collector, but I doubt you're running into the ones I know about. 17:25:17 wbooze: Playing with McCLIM? 17:25:22 -!- leyyer_su [~user@222.212.244.234] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:26:43 yes 17:26:45 reb````: So, what'd you find? 17:27:45 it's cool, just loaded fix-sbcl.lisp and mp-sbcl.lisp 17:27:59 tho still not working sometimes.... 17:28:04 and the debugger 17:28:19 Yeah, it's pretty rough going. 17:28:34 the debugger works, but getting back to the application command loop is sometimes impossible...or even to the sbcl repl 17:28:51 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:29:05 and sometimes it deadlocks.... 17:29:06 or so 17:29:26 nyef: I saw wrong values returned by dynamic-usage in src/code/gc.lisp 17:29:40 i can not type anything to the listener's debugger but can break in the sbcl repl instead sometimes but i can't get away or even quit sbcl 17:31:07 I thought the Lisp definition of that function might be causing crashes because it contains (the (unsigned-byte 32) ... ) and my dynamic space is larger than a uint32. 17:31:30 ... but with conservative gc, that function is really a call to C code. 17:32:50 It's still returning the wrong value, but it's probably not causing the crash I'm seeing. I have a 10 Gb heap. My code is doing nothing fancy, no threads, etc. ... and I see a crash inside the garbage collector. 17:33:14 reb````: Lovely. 17:33:18 Sorry, that's 10Gb of dynamic data in a 16 Gb heap. 17:33:19 Kron [~Kron@129-97-120-129.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 17:33:45 -!- Kron is now known as Guest28039 17:33:49 homie: Mmm. The debugging aspect of McCLIM, particularly with the listener window, is pretty horrible. 17:34:14 beelike [~redmundia@84.122.73.141.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 17:34:19 hello 17:34:28 can numbers be used in case? 17:34:43 it opens a new frame with the interactive debugger, but i have to click instead of select the options there.... 17:34:43 lol 17:34:53 beelike: not with certainty 17:35:05 i was confused first, but then got it, but meh sometimes i can just get back to the clim repl and sometimes not.... 17:35:07 Xach can you explain? 17:35:25 beelike: CASE tests its keys with EQ, and two numbers that look the same might not be EQ. 17:35:30 um, no, it uses EQL 17:35:57 kpreid is right, and I am wrong. 17:36:03 and i couldn't get the clim-desktop thing via cvs somehow.... 17:36:06 clhs CASE => "If the test-key is the same..." => glossary "same" => "eql is the default predicate" 17:36:15 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.51.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:36:31 ok so i can use it safely and portably? 17:36:43 nyef: Anyway, there's at least one problem ... bytes_allocated in gencgc.c is an unsigned long and my heap's bigger than that, so the number rolls over. 17:37:15 beelike: as long as they are eql, yes. 17:37:51 beelike: the behavior of CASE on numbers is not in any way implementation-defined. 17:38:02 reb````: Mmm... Seems like that's the sort of thing that should have been found long ago. 17:38:22 nyef: "wait, how did that ever work?" 17:38:54 jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.51.30] has joined #lisp 17:38:56 kpreid: You mean like the binding-stack gc-safety test? I figured that one out, but it's not pretty. 17:39:39 Xach aren't all numbers eql ? 17:40:13 beelike: some numbers are = but not eql, that is what I meant when mentioning it. 17:40:42 Xach: ... bignums, complexes, rationals, and floats? 17:41:25 you hear it from the people of the town 17:42:11 nyef: (= 3.0 3) => t, (eql 3.0 3) => nil 17:42:18 Ahh. 17:42:31 Right, type contagion doesn't happen. 17:42:33 Gotcha. 17:43:06 i want to use it with integers, up to 2^32 17:43:55 Xach: I think the only operators, excepting EQ itself, that use EQ comparison by default are GETF/GET-PROPERTIES 17:43:57 beelike: integers is fine. two = integers are also eql. 17:44:18 wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-216.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:44:29 adeht: yes, I don't know why I thought at that moment that CASE uses EQ. I've used it with integers myself, and knew better. 17:44:47 *Xach* psyched himself out 17:45:32 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:46:37 scambag case, seems useful, bites in the ass 17:47:16 it does not eval case labels either, so can't use constants there 17:47:24 or have to use reader macro 17:47:39 can't use a reader macro in the same file, either 17:47:48 unless you use eval-when :) 17:48:09 drei has a variable for some max or min, and it expects it to be of integer type or boolean or so, but that variable seems to be mostly a fraction on my system..... 17:48:17 adeht: nope. 17:48:19 nyef_ [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:36 -!- nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:48:37 Xach: why not? 17:48:39 well, now my confidence is shaken, so i'll say "maybe nope" 17:49:04 cfa [~cfa@unaffiliated/cfa] has joined #lisp 17:49:42 adeht: I base it on clisp's behavior and by the spec entry for defconstant, which says this: "If a defconstant form appears as a top level form, the compiler must recognize that name names a constant variable. An implementation may choose to evaluate the value-form at compile time, load time, or both." 17:49:43 Xach: (eval-always (defconstant foo 42)) #.foo should be ok (and hacky) 17:51:39 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 17:52:34 oconnore [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:52 -!- joseph_ [~duomo@cpe-69-204-169-245.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:55:07 duomo [~duomo@cpe-69-204-169-245.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:55:14 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.4.159] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:58:39 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-216.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:58:50 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A5ECE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:03:52 benkard_ [~benkard@mnch-5d8554ef.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:17 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-18-2-37.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:41 superflit [~superflit@71-208-211-204.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:24 -!- FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has quit [Quit: under the bit stream] 18:06:40 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:06:50 -!- msponge [~msponge@31-34-91.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: msponge] 18:06:57 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:07:01 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-9-79-36.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:07:28 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d8566c8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:07:29 -!- benkard_ is now known as benkard 18:08:32 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p54A8D6F1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:09:02 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-174-35.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:09:09 waltwhite [~waltwhite@168-170-33-178.dsl.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:37 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-001-201.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:15:00 -!- waltwhite [~waltwhite@168-170-33-178.dsl.ovh.net] has left #lisp 18:16:23 are alastairs files windows specific only ? 18:16:29 like the faslizer ? 18:17:30 -!- hikarudo [~hikarudo@200.175.194.51.dynamic.dialup.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: hikarudo] 18:18:42 My faslizer was written on linux, so no. 18:19:01 -!- xale [~xale@2001:4b98:dc0:51:216:3eff:fef2:58dd] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:19:04 At the same time, the guid and hwnd and hgdiobj things are obviously windows-specific. 18:19:42 let's say i've defined my package in packages.lisp and i have it in file test.lisp 18:19:51 how do i bootstrap my package? 18:19:59 FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 18:19:59 it's called name 18:20:16 (asdf:load-system 'test) says that it doesn't know my package 18:20:50 asdf operates in terms of "system definitions" stored in .asd files, and either loaded directly or made available via the "central registry". 18:20:58 I try not to deal with asdf if I can avoid it. 18:21:19 -!- Guest28039 [~Kron@129-97-120-129.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:21:21 and what's best way to load my package after i started sbcl 18:21:23 ? 18:21:25 troydm: Here's a guide: http://xach.livejournal.com/278047.html 18:22:00 troydm: for two files, you could make a file test.asd that contained: (asdf:defsystem #:test :components ((:file "package") (:file "test"))) 18:22:12 oops, :serial t should be in there. 18:22:46 -!- gko [gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:22:49 and if say i want to use quicklisp? 18:22:58 speaking of asdf:defsystem, is putting something in :depends-on the same as manual (require something) ? 18:23:30 -!- benny [~benny@i577A8AB8.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:24:03 troydm: quicklisp loads things via asdf. 18:24:18 puchacz: REQUIRE with one argument is not specified very much. 18:24:20 Xach: ok that makes senses 18:24:26 benny [~benny@i577A1D2C.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:24:33 troydm: the link austinh gave shows what i usually do when starting a project. 18:24:42 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d8554ef.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:26:25 Xach: the thing is that if I (require 'arnesi), I can (:use #:arnesi) in my cl:defpackage, but if I only :depends-on :arnesi, it says that there is no package arnesi. 18:26:30 I thought it was the same 18:27:56 puchacz: I can't reproduce. Works fine for me using :depends-on. 18:28:13 ok, nw. I will try to figure it out 18:28:18 thx 18:29:04 puchacz: can you paste the files involved? i wonder what's going wrong for you. 18:29:58 Xach, hold on, bbib 18:34:05 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d85707a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:14 markskil1eck [~mark@host86-137-70-89.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:38:53 -!- markskil1eck [~mark@host86-137-70-89.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:40:48 -!- jaminja [~jaminja@unaffiliated/jaminja] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:41:08 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.187.102] has joined #lisp 18:43:41 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.86.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:44:12 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:44:27 markskil1eck [~mark@host86-137-70-89.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:44:27 -!- markskil1eck [~mark@host86-137-70-89.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:47:07 -!- Saeren_ is now known as Saeren 18:48:21 ok, I am back, where is the pastebin, pls? 18:48:27 paste.lisp.org 18:48:32 thx 18:48:44 -!- StrmSrfr [~user@208.72.159.205] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:49:10 StrmSrfr [~user@208.72.159.205] has joined #lisp 18:49:41 so, I am getting: The name "ARNESI" does not designate any package. 18:49:43 puchacz: is that the actual file? 18:49:49 puchacz: or just forms from different files? 18:49:53 when I try to (require 'my-project) 18:49:58 this is the file 18:50:05 puchacz: what is the file named? 18:50:12 my-project.asd 18:50:21 waltwhite [~waltwhite@168-170-33-178.dsl.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:21 and the directory is seen by asdf 18:50:27 puchacz: the defpackage part should go in a separate file. i like to call that separate file package.lisp 18:50:35 ok, thx 18:50:46 puchacz: the system should include that package.lisp file as a file component 18:51:00 and asd only defsystem? 18:51:01 as in: :components ((:file "package") ...) in the system definition 18:51:17 puchacz: you can put other stuff in the .asd, but what you have put there is not a good thing to put there 18:52:46 I like your reason why it is not a good thing :) 18:52:52 but important thing is that it helped 18:53:04 I moved defpackage to package.lisp and all is fine 18:53:07 so thanks! 18:53:43 Glad to hear 18:53:47 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.140] has quit [Quit: Offline] 18:57:53 Kron [~Kron@69.166.20.161] has joined #lisp 18:58:19 -!- Kron is now known as Guest10296 18:59:21 CaZe [~yrt@unaffiliated/y354c] has joined #lisp 18:59:29 jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.56] has joined #lisp 19:00:17 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.183.181] has joined #lisp 19:01:24 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-177-201-46.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:02:44 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-177-201-46.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:55 msponge [~msponge@31-34-91.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 19:05:18 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 19:05:25 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@189.247.126.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:05:36 GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-88-247.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:55 cheezus [~Adium@70.50.58.10] has joined #lisp 19:08:59 -!- paul0` [~user@177.16.145.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:09:06 lolsuper_ [~super_@pool-173-65-194-148.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:06 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@pool-173-65-194-148.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:09:06 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 19:10:40 kfrag [~patryk@141.212.187.224] has joined #lisp 19:11:33 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:12:43 -!- pearle [~pearle@blk-224-178-238.eastlink.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:12:49 what is ;;;; quickproject.asd 19:12:50 (asdf:defsystem #:quickproject 19:12:52 :serial t 19:12:54 :components ((:file "package") 19:12:56 sorry 19:12:59 not this 19:13:12 what is odd number of &key arguments means? 19:13:44 how do i get the list of all alist that match the requested key? i know the find method returns the first but what about the rest of alist with a key that match? 19:13:44 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:13:45 troydm: it means the function expected something like (fun :key1 value1 :key2 value2) but you passed (fun a b c) or (fun a) 19:13:46 troydm: you called a function that accepts keyword arguments with an odd number of arguments in the keyword argument list part. 19:13:47 It means that you called a function with an arglist similar to (&key foo) as (funcall ... :foo). 19:13:54 in all likelihood, that you forgot an argument (the one before the first keyword argument) 19:13:58 -!- frozencemetery [~frozencem@128.237.227.127] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:14:13 kfrag: REMOVE-IF-NOT is one way. 19:14:36 araujo [~araujo@190.73.44.29] has joined #lisp 19:14:36 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.44.29] has quit [Changing host] 19:14:36 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 19:14:48 kfrag: or even REMOVE. 19:14:51 kfrag: (remove :foo the-alist :key #'car :test (complement #'eq)) 19:15:07 troydm: There's at least one function in the spec which calls for both &optional and &key arguments, and if you forget about the optional one but have key arguments, you get that error. 19:15:32 troydm: what is the function in question? 19:16:06 (usocket:socket-list "test" 8080 :reuse-address t) is this correct? 19:16:40 i've added t at the end and it seems to start but aborts on another reason (address-in-use-error) 19:16:48 My usocket has no socket-list. 19:16:48 troydm: you mean socket-listen, but it looks good. 19:16:54 *socket-listen sorry 19:17:12 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #lisp 19:17:27 troydm: you have a socket listening on that port. use another port number. 19:17:57 H4ns: that's the thing there are no sockets listening on that port 19:18:07 H4ns: only two CLOSE_WAIT conns 19:18:12 troydm: then you you have to wait a while. 19:18:26 troydm: CLOSE_WAIT conns still hold the port number in-use until they time out. 19:18:41 troydm: That's actually the point of the CLOSE_WAIT state, AIUI. 19:18:46 :reuse-address should do. 19:18:48 nyef_: shouldn't :reuse-address t rebind the socket? 19:19:29 troydm: No, it prevents the socket from going into CLOSE_WAIT when it gets closed. 19:19:40 troydm: i'd check again. the operating system usually does not lie 19:19:44 nyef_: hu? 19:20:00 it is "i need to help by all means" hour :) 19:20:11 ... At least, that's my current understanding. Haven't actually dealt with this crap in years. 19:20:39 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.93.73] has joined #lisp 19:21:57 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 19:21:58 troydm: what's curious is that i see this:(socket-listen host port &key reuseaddress reuse-address backlog element-type) 19:22:10 troydm: i'd try :reuseaddress, just for laughs 19:23:31 H4ns: i already killed sbcl and started slime again 19:24:21 H4ns: btw shouldn't (princ "hello") when using another thread print the output to standart-output 19:24:33 H4ns: or it has a specific output? 19:25:12 because (bordeaux-threads:make-thread (lambda () (princ "hello"))) prints nothing 19:25:16 troydm: no, it works the other way round: you ask the channel and then the players frantically type in their answers at the same time. 19:25:49 H4ns: oook that makes sense 19:26:10 troydm: do you use slime? 19:26:14 troydm: There's a fairly good chance that there's a "hello" in your *inferior-lisp* buffer. 19:26:15 Xach: yes 19:26:33 troydm: what nyef said. 19:26:36 Xach: nope checked it 19:26:46 Xach: inferior-lisp doesn't contain hello 19:27:07 jaminja [~jaminja@85.17.232.145] has joined #lisp 19:27:07 -!- jaminja [~jaminja@85.17.232.145] has quit [Changing host] 19:27:07 jaminja [~jaminja@unaffiliated/jaminja] has joined #lisp 19:27:09 troydm: where would you like the output to appear? 19:27:12 hagish_ [~hagish@p57A476F8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:12 -!- hagish_ [~hagish@p57A476F8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:27:27 Xach: it would be good to have it in slime repl window 19:27:41 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.183.181] has quit [Quit: Offline] 19:27:48 troydm: (defvar *slime-output* *standard-output*) in the slime repl and then printing to *slime-output* could do the trick. 19:28:25 you could find out where the other output goes by using (make-thread (lambda () (defvar *wtf-output* *standard-output*))) and inspecting *wtf-output*. 19:28:30 or something similar 19:29:03 Xach: hmm ok i'll try that one 19:29:08 hikarudo [~hikarudo@200.175.194.51.dynamic.dialup.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 19:29:37 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:29:48 -!- Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:30:16 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 19:30:40 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 19:31:15 -!- waltwhite [~waltwhite@168-170-33-178.dsl.ovh.net] has left #lisp 19:31:37 Xach: the variable *standart-output* is not bound 19:31:52 Xach: I guess i should specify that variable in code 19:32:06 When i make thread 19:32:10 What about the variable cl:*standard-output* ? 19:32:12 It might help to spell it *standard-output* instead of *standart-output* 19:32:38 -!- poindont` [~user@cloudbovina.bovinasancta.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:34:32 waaah waaaah waaaaaaaaah 19:35:32 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.250] has joined #lisp 19:35:42 Guthur [~user@host86-160-244-114.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:35:47 troydm: does it actually help? 19:36:47 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-114-21.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:36:47 francogrex [~user@109.130.143.41] has joined #lisp 19:40:23 -!- hikarudo [~hikarudo@200.175.194.51.dynamic.dialup.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: hikarudo] 19:41:47 Right, time for me to go find a train. 19:41:51 -!- nyef_ [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Bye all.] 19:42:42 -!- cfa [~cfa@unaffiliated/cfa] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.90.1] 19:43:56 ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:39 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-094-111.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 19:44:40 -!- dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:45:22 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-189-134.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:45:30 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-189-134.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:45:35 Xach: i'll try that 19:46:56 if one only has slot readers is still ok to use with accessors? 19:47:18 (make-thread (lambda () (princ "hello" cl:*standard-output*))) 19:47:24 still the same 19:47:25 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-40.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:47:38 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-40.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:47:48 troydm: What about my suggestions? 19:48:04 troydm: are you using sbcl? 19:48:27 troydm: there's something odd about writing to standard output when you create threads with sbcl 19:48:40 at least i ran into a problem with it in the past 19:48:52 It's possible the output is being buffered, too. 19:50:02 kruhft: yes sbcl 19:50:38 yea i'll i'm starting to think that i should use something like log4cl 19:50:44 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-208-211-204.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:50:47 i'm not at home so i can't check my code though 19:51:32 superflit [~superflit@140.226.4.192] has joined #lisp 19:51:43 troydm: check this http://lists.common-lisp.net/pipermail/slime-devel/2008-October/015611.html 19:52:00 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 19:53:20 Xach: Just got your quip, "you hear it from the people of the town" :) 19:53:41 I will be here all week. Wait, no I won't. 19:54:07 Xach: are you just dipping into a'dam and back, or are you seeing something else, too? 19:54:23 H4ns: just a dip, friday to monday. 19:54:51 Xach: gee, that's going to be a ride :) 19:54:55 -!- kfrag [~patryk@141.212.187.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:55:29 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba_@141.212.58.64] has quit [Quit: ] 19:55:44 Yes. 19:56:13 Xach: where are you from? 19:56:27 living now i mean 19:56:35 kruhft: It ain't where you're from, it's where you're at. Maine. 19:57:09 bit of a trip for a weekend getaway 19:57:14 Amyn [~abennama@m328eth.crans.org] has joined #lisp 19:57:24 -!- dlowe [dlowe@nat/google/x-dnlidfuasgekttlc] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:57:54 If I could arrange a family trip I'd try to stay longer. No dice. 19:58:03 -!- oconnore [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 19:58:26 you're going to a lisp conference? 19:58:36 kruhft: I am. I am speaking. 19:59:00 -!- wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-189-134.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:59:08 nice 19:59:12 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-189-134.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:59:39 -!- GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-88-247.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:59:44 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:59:44 jlpeters [~james@c-67-171-37-138.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:52 "10:36:12 Xach: I think the only operators, excepting EQ itself, that use EQ comparison by default are GETF/GET-PROPERTIES" <-- There's also THROW/CATCH :) And TAGBODY/GO tags are symbols or integers only, so we could say it uses a predicate "between" EQ and EQL that's much closer to the former than the latter... 20:00:39 -!- jlpeters [~james@c-67-171-37-138.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:00:59 jlpeters [~james@c-67-171-37-138.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:06 -!- jlpeters [~james@c-67-171-37-138.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:01:49 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-189-134.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:02:20 Hexstream: so by that interpretation do teh operators which use the tagbody implicity have a similar treatment of eq/eql? 20:02:42 skeptomai [~cb@ip65-47-31-86.z31-47-65.customer.algx.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:33 Hexstream: good CATCH 20:03:59 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d85707a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:04:07 mon_key: You mean operators that have an implicit TAGBODY? Seems likely... Btw I'm not sure that the last thing I said ("we could say it uses a predicate "between" EQ and EQL that's much closer to the former than the latter.") is a meaningful thing to say... 20:04:25 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-189-134.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:04:27 -!- gkeith_lt [georgekeit@nat/google/x-pmdikjwqhvdkiisa] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:04:50 from the notes section of the spec for catch: "It is customary for symbols to be used as TAGS, but any object is 20:04:51 permitted. However, numbers should not be used because the comparison 20:04:51 is done using eq." 20:05:01 temp_usr [~user@d83-183-51-82.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 20:05:56 hrr, thanks to my complaint, masterbranch.com now recognizes lisp as a programming language! :) 20:06:07 H4ns: nice! where is your profile? 20:06:42 Xach: mine is https://www.masterbranch.com/developer/hans.hubner, but they need to re-crawl everything because they've ignored .lisp as a file extension until now. 20:07:13 i mean, i don't mind being known as javascript savvy, but the bars clearly don't tell all right now :) 20:07:17 H4ns: maybe eventually they will bother to include Lisp at the footer of their homepage 20:07:28 haha, masterbranch is amazingly bad at figuring out what my skills are (: 20:07:46 Hey guys, I'm currently setting up Emacs+SLIME+SBCL and I've run into a problem: M-x slime won't launch a REPL. I solved this problem by adding (slime-setup '(slime-repl)) to my .emacs file but I also want slime-fancy so I add that too and now my REPL won't automatically start. As far as I've gathered slime-fancy loads a REPL too but I haven't been able to figure out anything more. Is there any chance that you could help me? 20:08:09 benkard [~benkard@mnch-d9bddb9a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:10 I forked memcached once. now I have skills in C since 2003 (-: 20:08:51 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:08:54 Do folks actually lay claim to being a "Bash devloper"? 20:09:13 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:09:50 pnq [~nick@AC818548.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 20:10:06 temp_usr: what happens when you try to start slime? 20:10:16 antifuchs: hehe. they also take .f as meaning fortran, not forth. almost an insult. 20:10:17 what's analog of while in cl? 20:10:32 troydm: (loop while ...) 20:10:51 Xach: *inferior-lisp* loads and nothing more 20:10:57 You can also use TAGBODY/GO. 20:11:13 temp_usr: what do your .emacs slime bits look like? you can use paste.lisp.org for multiple lines. 20:11:13 H4ns: it's really not an accurate representation of what I've done. maybe I should just delete this profile (: 20:11:20 i wonder why there is no while in alexandria 20:11:53 I wonder why there is no WHILE in CL. (not as a LOOP keyword) 20:11:53 antifuchs: i'll give it a few days to re-scan my lisp stuff before i decide. 20:11:58 H4ns: there's a while in cesarum... 20:12:00 H4ns: whose/which variant would you suggest using? 20:12:15 mon_key: while is really a trivial macro 20:12:19 (loop while (something is true) (eval)) ? 20:12:28 (loop while (something is true) do (eval)) 20:12:29 Xach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/125327 20:12:37 pjb: ok thx 20:12:38 I guess because it's not used that often when writing Lispy code 20:12:55 emacs lisp uses it. 20:13:00 adeht: "lispy code" is just a myth 20:13:09 pjb: ok, Lispy = Common Lispy :) 20:13:24 H4ns: no doubt, I'm just curious as to which you would think is most performant? 20:13:25 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:13:29 adeht: no while in common lisp, q.e.d. 20:13:30 :) 20:13:31 temp_usr: that looks a lot like mine, but i get a repl fine. i wonder what's up. 20:13:36 mon_key: performant? 20:14:01 Efficient. 20:14:01 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-160-244-114.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:14:01 H4ns: maybe you think it's a myth.. I have some subjective judgment of Lispiness 20:14:13 Xach: Hm, I get an error. "WARNING: Not reloading SWANK. Package already exists." but I don't know if that's relevant or not. 20:14:18 adeht: right. my opinion on that is also just subjective. 20:14:43 H4ns: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Performant 20:14:44 I guess it's easier to recognize not-lispy code than lispy code. 20:15:03 temp_usr: Out of curiosity, what's the value of slime-protocol-version in your emacs session? 20:15:04 mon_key: i don't know what "while" implementation would be most effecitve, but i imagine that there is not a lot that such a primitive macro could do wrong. 20:15:32 Xach: Eh, how would I get that number? Just evaluate slime-protocol-version in *scratch*? 20:15:48 *H4ns* resists the temptation to type (defmacro while.... 20:16:02 temp_usr: yes, or C-h v 20:16:32 Xach: 2011-10-13 20:17:22 H4ns: i defmacro'd while a long time ago 20:17:24 temp_usr: Sorry, I don't know what might be going wrong for you. My setup is pretty similar but things work fine. I got my slime from quicklisp and used quicklisp-slime-helper to set it up in emacs. 20:17:45 H4ns: and for... 20:17:49 ;; 20:17:54 http://paste.lisp.org/+2OPC 20:17:55 Xach: Hm, yeah, I could always try that. Thanks anyway, really appreciate it 20:18:25 turnipseed [~cms@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:47 dx_kid [~quassel@223.191.68.194] has joined #lisp 20:18:55 mon_key: the first one is clearly wrong. 20:19:08 mon_key: why not just disguise a loop behind the pretty macro? 20:19:54 H4ns: No, that won't work correctly in all circumstances. 20:20:10 Because of LOOP-FINISH and some other LOOP parsing issue IIRC. 20:20:11 Hexstream: that's why i resisted the temptation. 20:20:58 It looks like someone wrote a patch to enable hunchentoot to use serve-event some time ago; what happened to that? 20:21:33 marsell [~marsell@120.18.122.177] has joined #lisp 20:21:37 -!- temp_usr [~user@d83-183-51-82.cust.tele2.se] has left #lisp 20:21:52 -!- msponge [~msponge@31-34-91.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: msponge] 20:22:16 mon_key: http://paste.lisp.org/display/125328#1 20:22:28 waveman__ [~tim@124.170.43.134] has joined #lisp 20:23:54 Hexstream: isn't the (block nil (tagbody begin ... (go begin))) thing equivalent to a simple (loop ... ) 20:23:54 ? 20:24:48 H4ns: no 20:25:03 adeht: because? 20:25:10 LOOP-FINISH 20:25:22 H4ns: suppose ... is the symbol FOR 20:25:35 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.187.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:25:45 H4ns: better would be (loop (progn ...)) 20:26:12 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 20:26:18 better yet (loop (tagbody ...)) so that the while has an implicit tagbody 20:26:51 yeah.. if I had to implement a WHILE macro I'd just use `(do () ((not ,test)) ,@forms) 20:27:31 Regardless, in my mind LOOP is classified as "Heavyweight" and WHILE as "Lightweight", so I'd hesitate implementing the latter in terms of the former. Same thing for DO, but to a lesser extent. 20:28:17 Hexstream: i'd not see simple loops as heavyweight, but then. 20:28:25 wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-216.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:30:16 H4ns: Yeah, I know, but among other things it can be misleading if you say "I'd just use LOOP", meaning "simple LOOP without LOOP keywords" instead of "extended LOOP". Even if you say "I'd just use simple LOOP", someone might think you're saying you'd use the extended form, and that it makes things simple... 20:30:20 troydm: so, you see, it is not exactly trivial. but also not very complicated either. fact is, you need to pull one into your utils.lisp if you want it. 20:31:43 -!- EyesIsServer [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:32:05 H4ns: Or from alexandria if it had one :) 20:32:43 mon_key: right. submit it! but submit a correct one. first comes the test, then the body. 20:33:39 FTR that first one is named other than `while' in my utils for this reason :) 20:33:43 Hexstream: Compare (disassemble (compile nil (lambda (c f) (loop while (funcall c) do (funcall f))))) (disassemble (compile nil (lambda (c f) (do () ((not (funcall c))) (funcall f))))) 20:34:00 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 20:34:20 Also, FWIW pjb's while macro is in section 5 com.informatigo/common-lisp/cesarum/utility.lisp 20:34:28 this while is lovely: http://paste.lisp.org/display/125328#2 20:36:37 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 20:36:42 what's the point of returning the last iteration's value? 20:38:21 it's like dotimes, isn't it? 20:38:22 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:38:35 more work for the gc I guess 20:39:28 no, dotimes takes the value-returning form as an argument on its own 20:40:10 (dowhile (condition [result]) body...) 20:43:35 mon_key: pjb's version at http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/common-lisp/cesarum/utility.lisp does have a BLOCK NIL yet doesn't have an implicit TAGBODY, which seems pretty weird to me... 20:44:07 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-174-35.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:44:55 Hexstream: DO sets up an implicit tagbody 20:45:49 Oh, nm, the bad indentation threw me off. 20:46:26 (And the UPPERCASEness) 20:47:21 sometimes I like how upcased code looks, although I generally use downcase 20:48:52 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.143.41] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:49:14 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:49:43 pjb: informatigo.com is being really weird. If I get to a URL that exists it works, but if I get what should be a 404, it says "Server not found." Most unhelpfully, it does that for www.informatigo.com . Are you trying to hide your stuff or something (your linking behaviors lead me to believe otherwise)? 20:50:01 francogrex [tinyirc@109.130.143.41] has joined #lisp 20:50:24 Perhaps it's a consequence of pound? 20:50:55 But I get 404, eg: The requested URL /develop/lisp/com/informatimago/common-lisp/cesarum/utility.lispx was not found on this server. 20:51:51 -!- spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Quit: spacefrogg] 20:51:58 I get "Server not found." for that one too. 20:52:26 Strange. 20:52:40 i get it too 20:52:42 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 20:52:51 it's a chrome issue 20:52:58 Same behavior on Chrome as Firefox. 20:53:14 firefox displays an appropriate error for me 20:53:48 -!- dx_kid [~quassel@223.191.68.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:53:51 yeah, dns.squish.net says there is no problem looking up that hostname 20:54:00 -!- FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has quit [Quit: under the bit stream] 20:54:06 Well, I use Firefox 3.6.23 (from Ubuntu LTS)... 20:54:30 (conkeror with from http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/unintern 'index) 20:54:31 (in-package #:tty234) 20:54:40 ak sorry 20:54:43 sabalaba [~sabalaba_@adsl-99-150-155-41.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:07 Hexstream: the issue is: it is not informatigo, but informatimago 20:55:17 Hexstream: you must not leave the magic out. 20:55:53 -!- cheezus [~Adium@70.50.58.10] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:57:35 hikarudo [~hikarudo@200.175.194.51.dynamic.dialup.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 20:57:39 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.152.189] has joined #lisp 20:58:33 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.4.192] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:58:57 -!- skeptomai [~cb@ip65-47-31-86.z31-47-65.customer.algx.net] has quit [Quit: Ok, I'm outta here] 20:59:07 superflit [~superflit@140.226.4.233] has joined #lisp 20:59:25 kfrag [~patryk@141.212.182.121] has joined #lisp 20:59:58 cheezus [~Adium@70.50.58.10] has joined #lisp 21:03:22 ngz [~user@201.144.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:45 doritos [~joshua@c-76-118-155-244.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:40 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-216.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:04:53 wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-216.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:06:18 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-72-43-20-246.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:08:36 Joreji [~thomas@74-112.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:09:57 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.187.102] has joined #lisp 21:11:21 HAHA! I had always, always read that as "informatigo", not "informatimago". 21:11:43 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-d9bddb9a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:11:50 paul0` [~user@187.112.250.212] has joined #lisp 21:12:47 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:13:07 -!- kfrag [~patryk@141.212.182.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:13:33 informatigo.com, surprisingly, seems available as a domain name (but it likely won't be in 2 seconds if it's as valuable as I think it should be...) 21:15:58 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 21:16:36 'valuable domain name' 21:17:05 i have not heard that expression in a while 21:17:06 H4ns: "valuable" as in "probably worth more than 10$/year". 21:18:13 H4ns: not since color.com launched? (: 21:18:26 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:19:02 antifuchs: that was new to me, but it appears not to be launched yet 21:19:53 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:19:54 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 21:20:24 H4ns: oh, they launched a while ago (there's an iphone app). rumor has it they paid a couple million for the domain name or something (: 21:20:44 -!- beelike [~redmundia@84.122.73.141.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: Chateando desde http://webchat.redmundial.org (Ping timeout)] 21:20:47 -!- hagish [~hagish@p57A476F8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:20:47 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-113-11.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:20:49 ah, just 350k 21:20:52 antifuchs: ah, those vc-funded startups. 21:21:02 it's hilarious 21:21:09 dropbox.com cost a pretty penny, too 21:21:29 but they already had a steady business with nice revenues going (: 21:21:56 but not as much free money! 21:22:55 (I guess that was your point. :/) 21:23:35 it kinda was, yeah (: 21:26:00 kennyd [~kennyd@78-0-204-75.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 21:26:15 EyesIsServer [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 21:28:55 -!- H4ns [5b3d577e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.61.87.126] has quit [Quit: g'nite] 21:30:27 urandom__ [~user@p548A4A55.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:27 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.45.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:36:19 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-216.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:36:35 wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-216.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:41:33 I met someone in London doing "what colr said that they would do" 21:44:01 s0ber_ [~s0ber@111-240-168-54.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:31 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-216.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:45:51 -!- Joreji [~thomas@74-112.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:46:10 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-169-234.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:46:18 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 21:46:43 Joreji [~thomas@74-112.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:47:51 -!- cheezus [~Adium@70.50.58.10] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:48:13 -!- ngz [~user@201.144.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:50:08 -!- jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.56] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:53:12 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:53:14 Krystof: sounds creative! 21:56:03 kfrag [~patryk@141.212.187.224] has joined #lisp 21:58:55 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-094-111.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:00:21 -!- francogrex [tinyirc@109.130.143.41] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:00:25 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba_@adsl-99-150-155-41.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:02:23 -!- kfrag [~patryk@141.212.187.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:02:25 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.187.102] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:02:39 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:03:10 sabalaba [~sabalaba_@adsl-99-150-155-41.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:53 kfrag [~patryk@141.212.187.224] has joined #lisp 22:05:56 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba_@adsl-99-150-155-41.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:09:32 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 22:12:31 -!- gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:14:23 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:15:54 -!- Soulman1 [~knute@175.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 22:23:21 -!- Joreji [~thomas@74-112.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:24:08 -!- pnq [~nick@AC818548.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:27:32 -!- Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:29:24 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:29:36 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:30:07 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:32:22 am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has joined #lisp 22:34:49 -!- anvandare [~anvandare@dD5770868.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: anvandare] 22:35:24 dwim [~dwim@176.Red-83-61-34.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:35:29 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.20.161] has joined #lisp 22:37:41 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-93-205-53.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:37:58 Kron [~Kron@69.166.20.161] has joined #lisp 22:38:00 -!- Guest10296 [~Kron@69.166.20.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:38:11 -!- Kron is now known as Kron__ 22:38:55 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:38:57 Vutral [~ss@2a01:198:35a::1] has joined #lisp 22:39:43 -!- kfrag [~patryk@141.212.187.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:39:58 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 22:40:30 antifuchs: I'm a bit jealous of your ability to type genuine elipses 22:40:39 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.20.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:40:42 cesarbp [~cbolano@189.247.126.160] has joined #lisp 22:41:15 jasom: Textual on os x does them automatically! it's like magic! 22:41:36 *p_l* has it in his keymap 22:42:01 just like  and  (alt-gr + Q/q) 22:43:11 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:52  22:44:10 I forgot about the compose key 22:44:40 I need to add compose key to my keyboard but can't figure what to get rid of 22:44:47 maybe caps lock 22:44:47 right windows? 22:44:47 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:45:02 jasom: laptop keyboard, has only one Super key 22:45:14 -!- sellout is now known as Guest73231 22:45:17 caps lock is probably your best bet then 22:45:31 sabalaba [~sabalaba_@99.150.155.41] has joined #lisp 22:45:40 I used to remap caps lock to control, but I ENDED UP TALKING IN ALL CAPS when I used someone elses keyboard 22:45:48 cheezus [~Adium@70.50.58.10] has joined #lisp 22:47:06 But it is the most useles key on a modern keyboard, but also one of the largest :( 22:47:38 I do remap it, so I'd be replaced the key which currently plays caps-lock 22:47:54 can't find my Sun Type6c which had physical compose :/ 22:48:27 I used to really favour those type6 keyboards. 22:49:19 -!- Guest73231 [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:50:03 yah, it was quite nice 22:50:11 don't know where I lost it :/ 22:51:39 superflit_ [~superflit@71-33-182-114.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:54 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.4.233] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:51:54 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 22:52:40 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba_@99.150.155.41] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:57:25 -!- paul0` [~user@187.112.250.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:58:38 If my program is using 5 Gb of heap allocated data, how large must SBCL's dynamic space size be? I think it needs to be roughly 10 Gb. 22:59:56 reb````: depends. worst case is indeed at least (a bit more than) twice the data. 23:00:08 kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.237.227] has joined #lisp 23:00:43 but large vectors are exempt from this rule, and so is anything that you force not to be GCed with generation tricks. 23:00:58 DaDaDosPrompt [~DaDaDosPr@184.99.13.214] has joined #lisp 23:04:36 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-133-123.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:59 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:10:25 superflit_ [~superflit@71-33-182-114.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:16 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-33-182-114.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:11:16 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 23:12:54 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-96-235.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:13:27 -!- drewc [~user@PC687f74269abb-WM0003D709793f.wbb.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:15:25 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:15:29 Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:18:02 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.151.176] has joined #lisp 23:20:23 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 23:20:23 anvandare [~anvandare@dD5770E09.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 23:20:54 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:24:27 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:24:31 -!- dwim [~dwim@176.Red-83-61-34.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:24:46 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 23:27:11 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.151.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:27:43 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-133-123.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 23:29:08 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:29:24 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:30:36 -!- djanatyn` is now known as djanatyn 23:30:36 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:34:12 Bike1 [~Glossina@71-214-96-235.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:50 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-57-36.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:45 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.151.176] has joined #lisp 23:36:48 Guthur [~user@host86-160-244-114.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:38:56 -!- Bike1 [~Glossina@71-214-96-235.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:39:29 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.151.176] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:47:01 dwim [~dwim@212.Red-83-61-34.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:46 -!- loderunner [~loderunne@adsl-074-229-197-048.sip.mco.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:53:19 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:53:22 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-96-235.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:35 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-96-235.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 23:55:47 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-96-235.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:35 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp