00:00:08 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:00:42 az_ginseng [~patryk@141.212.182.121] has joined #lisp 00:05:35 -!- drdo [~drdo@62.169.114.55.rev.optimus.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:05:50 -!- rme [rme@AED62357.1AC22DFA.699BA7A6.IP] has quit [Quit: rme] 00:05:50 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.153.241] has quit [Quit: rme] 16:40:56 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 16:40:56 16:40:56 -!- names: ccl-logbot xristos_ benny rme pnq SegFaultAX dto1 pchrist alkoma Bike lemoinem X-Scale cheezus Wraithan solfraze gaidal sonnym Kron killerboy coyo urandom__ ccorn Yuuhi nyef cesarbp morphism realitygrill paul0 dfox wbooze homie Athas milanj jacks- mkp hlavaty juniorroy TDT Krystof wormwood BrokenCog ngz ChibaPet LiamH bgs100 foocraft H4ns superflit Zulu McMAGIC--Copy setmeaway cfa MoALTz dlowe_lt cyrillos__ replore_ mjonsson lanthan_afh Ivoz mstevens 16:40:56 -!- names: mishoo__ sykopomp __main__ s0ber kennyd retupmoca gensym akovalenko stassats spacefrogg Spion c_arenz tempire jasom cmatei insomniaSalt HG` mvilleneuve sdemarre mrSpec drdo`` Ralith daniel__ Borbus MeanWeen scode_ katesmith borkman sellout- acelent sammi` jsoft ianmcorvidae lanthan Dodek peterhil` otwieracz surrounder cpt_nemo micro drewc lonstein AntiSpamMeta blackwolf kruhft bobbysmith007 MasseR lnostdal grouzen arbscht billstclair ch077179 antoszka 16:40:56 -!- names: sanjoyd hugod TristamWrk madnificent Phoodus kpal peterhil samebchase gcentauri araujo duomo vilikki ihyoyoung slyrus quackv2 karswell cYmen adeht nuba redline6561 oGMo SpitfireWP zbigniew wivlaro bigjust @fe[nl]ix froggey jsnell Pepe_ clop2 eli C-Keen tychoish pok_ kloeri freiksenet whoops limetree egn rabite Patzy Quetzalcoatl_ Tristam njan Xach sbryant eno Axioplase foom jrockway CallToPower BrianRice elliottcable jeekl loderunner naryl flip214 tritchey 16:40:56 -!- names: dRbiG wormphlegm tessier mrsolo Tasser daimrod Adrinael daedric Yamazaki-kun reb` schoppenhauer pkhuong p_l klutometis mathrick cods aoh herbieB_ devhost MikeSeth spacebat_ tty234_ shachaf kephas xale ve syrinx_ bieber p_l|backup dodecahedron npoektop mtd pinterface alanpearce rotty mon_key rainyrhy|afk mgr Tordek y3llow kleppari cataska levi alvis gkeith_lt quasisane scharan phadthai process mogs johs theBlackDragon maxm- quotemstr austinh sausages jlaire 16:40:56 -!- names: kanru Intensity felideon DrForr Nshag joast CrEddy _3b schme EyesIsServer dcrawford cmm- macrobat psyllo loke fluffycms gry kjellkt blumbri tali713 stepnem mal sid3k Odin- ecraven ramus Jabberwockey Oddity sshirokov The_third_bug nullman` markskilbeck pjb tomaw ivan4th z0d elliottjohnson vpit3833 _krappie_ churib erg mikejs gemelen vsync yroeht setheus_ felipe yan_ Bucciarati albino Kovensky df_aldur galdor yahooooo larva rsynnott cmbntr_ a7p literal srid 16:40:56 -!- names: abeaumont Mandus StrmSrfr df tsuru Salamander Quadrescence Saeren mornfall em Khisanth Jasko2 acieroid |3b| ``Erik Fade wtetzner Zephyrus paroneayea nicdev_ zakwilson Guest31252 ski_ mindCrime Iceland_jack lusory JuanDaugherty phryk morris morphling Obfuscate bfein derrida ineiros j_king zvrba OliverUv_ allandee dsp_ joshe koollman djinni` trigen ilmari Zhivago fmu guaqua clog boyscared luis Xof tic_ hyko frodef finnrobi Aisling rootzlevel PissedNumlock 16:40:56 -!- names: tvaalen 16:42:15 As I understood it. He's arguing that he was trying to make a point, for the student and not for the others. I read that to him it is irrelevant if its code works on a general base. 16:42:25 -!- Wraithan [~wraithan@c-67-189-110-252.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has left #lisp 16:43:03 loke: it's nigh-impossible, actually. 16:43:11 (COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.CESARUM.LIST::CIRCULAR-LIST-LENGTHS '#1=(#1#)) --> 1; 1 ;; once again GPL software proves superior. 16:43:26 spacefrogg: I don't read it like that. I read it as he's arguing that no sane person would implement DOLIST in a way that would cause any issue even if he were to break the restriction in the spec 16:43:43 pkhuong: really? 16:43:57 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 16:43:58 loke: he was ranting a this point in time. ;) 16:44:29 nyef: annotated with my old atomic-* code (using sb-ext:compare-and-swap) http://paste.lisp.org/+2OIF/1 16:44:31 loke: yes. You need the implicit tagbody, inside the mapped function, but for that you want to take the declarations out. 16:44:48 spacefrogg: well yeah, that's obvious. It'd argue that the right thing to do in this case would have to admit that his implementation broke the spec, and rewrite his code to conform. 16:44:51 why is that impossible? 16:44:53 And don't forget the NIL block around the MAP. 16:45:14 dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 16:45:15 stassats: I've yet to see one attempt get it right. Empirically, it's nearly impossible. 16:45:43 akovalenko: Interesting use of uninterned symbols. Took me a couple seconds to figure out what you were doing there. 16:46:00 loke: but his code's purpose was not to be correct in the sense of 'adherence to a specification' but to stand for itself as an example of a high-level solution to a specific problem. 16:46:02 pkhuong: You have much more experience in this field than me, so I'll bow down to your expertise. However, could you explain how the obvious (naive?) implementation would fail? 16:46:25 frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 16:46:29 I don't get why Naggum said you'd have to resort to recursion, DO seems fine... 16:46:37 spacefrogg: fair enough, but when teaching techniques to others, wouldn't it make sense to make sure your code is correct? 16:46:46 loke: it doesn't support the implicit tagbody and return block. 16:46:47 nyef: subforms of places are wrong there; the important part is MACROEXPAND before compare-and-swap 16:47:04 loke: not if you would have to sacrifice clarity for that. 16:47:05 pkhuong: yeah, but why can't you put a TAGBODY inside the lambda? 16:47:23 Umm... Are we guaranteed left-to-right argument evaluation? I'm sure I knew this at one point... 16:47:29 nyef: of course. 16:47:37 loke: parse it for declarations first. 16:47:49 loke: as I said, I've yet to see one person get it right. 16:48:24 It's just much simpler to expand into a DO that takes care of all that. 16:48:31 akovalenko: Macroexpand doesn't help if you're trying to hit a special or lexical variable, though. 16:48:32 pkhuong: OK, if I spend hanf hour on this tomorrow (time for me to sleep now), would you look at it and tell me where I got it wrong? It could be an interesting learning experience for me. 16:48:41 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-gvilpinrdutctfmt] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:49:05 nyef: for lexical one, aren't we out of luck with sb-ext:compare-and-swap? 16:49:11 loke: I'm sure you'll find spec-wielding opponents at any time of the day. 16:49:19 spacefrogg: did you read the other posts that Xach posted from the same thread? 16:49:24 Yes, barring somebody doing something clever with the compiler. 16:49:33 loke: yes, read all of this 16:49:37 spacefrogg: ok 16:49:55 Then again, if the lexical variable isn't closed-over, you don't need atomicity. 16:49:59 loke: just a sec, were you constructing a google docs reader library? 16:50:03 nyef: something clever like what we have for downward funargs. 16:50:10 madnificent: yes 16:50:11 nyef: as of name => (symbol-value name), I used to handle it as a special case, but preferred to see SYMBOL-VALUEs later 16:50:23 loke: do you have a any location i should check in order to see the progress on that one? 16:50:33 madnificent: For docs, I only have basic spreadsheets support yet. I've been spending some time on picasa lately 16:50:50 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 16:50:58 madnificent: Sure 16:50:59 madnificent: http://code.google.com/p/cl-gdata/ 16:51:02 loke: doesn't matter, i just want to keep up with the connections you make to the outside world. i guess it can come in handy sometime 16:51:36 madnificent: http://code.google.com/p/cl-gdata/source/browse/src/spreadsheets.lisp 16:51:36 pkhuong: Which ones were downward-funargs, again? 16:52:11 nyef: the 80% case you committed a couple months ago. 16:52:21 loke: thanks. if you're building things for picasa as well, i wouldn't mind looking at them either. though i don't really need either of both at the moment. 16:52:38 loke: and goodnight, and thanks :) 16:52:40 madnificent: http://code.google.com/p/cl-gdata/source/browse/src/picasa.lisp 16:52:45 knock yourself out :-) 16:53:05 loke: yeah, just saw it in the sources, thanks :D 16:53:07 fun stuff! 16:53:09 pkhuong: The... d-x value-cell thing? 16:53:29 right... But it's not solving the same issue, actually. 16:54:01 madnificent: want to do something with it? 16:54:34 pkhuong: dolist in SBCL isn't implemented with DO and parses declarations 16:54:36 Last time I looked at CAS on lexical bindings, the issue was that I couldn't figure out the right way to force assignment conversion. With d-x cells, the conversion is triggered by normal analyses. 16:55:10 -!- cfa [~cfa@unaffiliated/cfa] has quit [Quit: home] 16:55:49 milanj: what does not work on sbcl? 16:56:11 stassats: I'll hope that's because it tries to be smart with constant lists. 16:56:26 Why would you need to force assignment conversion? 16:56:55 Even without d-x cells, you only need to do atomic CAS if there's a value-cell, which is found during physenvanal. 16:57:00 Guthur [~Guthur@212.183.128.42] has joined #lisp 16:57:13 nyef: you still need a value cell if the only assignment is via CAS. 16:57:32 Okay, yes. 16:57:51 Oh, so you need to do something like subclass the SET nodes. 16:57:52 *akovalenko* would close over a cons cell, and update its car atomically instead 16:58:24 akovalenko: The point of a value-cell is that it's basically just that. 16:59:17 akovalenko: except better supported by our analyses. 16:59:25 pkhuong: Yeah, subclass SET nodes to produce CAS nodes. That way you end up with the escape logic doing the right thing. 16:59:32 nyef: my point is not to introduce CAS uses beyond any hope of portability 16:59:34 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl6-180-6.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 16:59:49 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.42.112.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:59:55 akovalenko: But CAS only has an effect on three backends. 17:00:09 akovalenko: I don't really care about portability to other implementations. 17:00:47 pkhuong: when you're hacking the compiler, it's obviously right 17:00:49 http://paste.lisp.org/display/125083 that's my entry into dolist with map 17:00:57 pjb` [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 17:01:48 pkhuong: and "better supported by our analyses" (when said about a place that is updated concurrently) is really scary 17:02:13 stassats: now I have to revise my internal statistics ;) 17:02:34 pkhuong: Bayesian update time? 17:02:46 nyef: right (: 17:02:48 akovalenko: you can use com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.list:list-length instead of alexandria:circular-list-p. 17:02:58 If you're not alergic to GPL. 17:03:08 list-lengths I mean. 17:03:18 akovalenko: I don't find it scary, actually. FWIW, it's already the case. We don't assume any temporality relationship between code that's executed in different closures. 17:03:31 pjb: tell Bike that (his report here was the first time I saw alexandria:circular-list-p ) 17:03:36 stassats: I like it. 17:03:48 lbc [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 17:03:53 ok. s/akovalenko/Bike/ 17:03:58 anvandare [~anvandare@78-22-145-191.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 17:04:08 Like I said, it wasn't something I used in a project or anything, I was just playing around and noticed the error. 17:04:17 Good to know, though. 17:04:45 Xach, naggum solution is not giving right answer on sbcl 17:05:38 a revised version http://paste.lisp.org/display/125083#1 17:06:04 variable should be bound to NIL when result form is evaluated, but that may conflict with a type declaration 17:06:06 At some point I'd like to sit down with my copy of the Muchnick book and SBCL and figure out how to make SBCL take advantage of all of the neat analysis stuff. 17:06:25 gaidal [~gaidal@59.42.112.140] has joined #lisp 17:06:26 stassats: It is incumbent upon the user to make sure a type declaration permits NIL in such cases. 17:06:36 milanj: worked for me. what did you use as arguments? 17:06:49 nyef: yes, but if the user doesn't supply the result-form, he shouldn't worry, that's what i fixed 17:06:58 Ahh. Okay. 17:07:06 milanj: Actually, I don't really care, don't bother. 17:07:08 nyef: the issue will be not losing what we already have. Regular SSA will not work for us, unless we're ready to lose the flow stuff. 17:07:10 example from thread, (count-member '(w x y z) '(a x (b y y (z) z))) 17:07:28 Oladon [~Oladon@np34.co.returnpath.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:16 a question for a quiz: "why (dolist (var '(1 2 3) 1) (declare (fixnum var)) (print var)) signals a type error?" 17:08:19 pkhuong: Yeah, I figured as much. I'm half-tempted to just try to write a new compiler for SBCL, cribbing as much working code from python. 17:08:28 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.176] has joined #lisp 17:08:48 stassats: Because NIL is not of type FIXNUM, like the error says. :-P 17:09:07 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 17:09:08 nyef: same. 17:09:10 Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 17:09:21 maybe you two could combine halves! 17:09:35 nyef: well, i learned just today that VAR is bound to NIL when result is evaluated 17:09:49 Xach: I'm not sure either of us has the time to follow through. I know I don't for the next while. 17:09:56 stassats: Yes, so did I. 17:10:00 same, same (: 17:10:03 it baffles me "why?" 17:10:06 *Xach* foresees the Montreal SBCL Compiler Summit 17:10:28 *nyef* foresees not going to Montreal any time soon. 17:10:59 *pkhuong* foresees an irritated advisor. 17:11:00 http://paste.lisp.org/display/125083#2 and another revision, adding ignorable to var when result-form is evaluated 17:11:08 Could someone help me understand why I'm getting "undefined function" when trying to call start-gossip-bot from CLAIM 1.2 in SBCL? I'm guessing it's something with packages, and akovalenko had suggested last night that I read the chapter on package locks in SBCL, but I've attempted to unlock the :gossip-bot package and still get that error. What am I doing wrong? 17:11:29 Well, time to sleep 17:11:43 Oladon: are you using the symbol named start-gossip-bot in the right package? 17:11:45 Tonight has been incredibly educational. Thank you guys. 17:11:45 Oladon: gossip-bot is not locked => locks are irrelevant 17:12:02 Oladon: you have to use the full and correct name of the function. i'm guessing that the function is named CLAIM:START-GOSSIP-BOT but you are trying to call SOMETHING-ELSE::START-GOSSIP-BOT. 17:12:05 akovalenko: chapter 11 is the chapter you suggested, no? 17:12:17 pkhuong: Probably not... 17:12:22 Ah 17:12:23 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-92-114-6.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:12:24 Oladon: SBCL manual is not CL standard 17:12:30 Xach: ok, I'll try that. 17:12:37 milanj [~milanj_@77-46-224-3.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 17:12:45 akovalenko: I see, I must have misunderstood 17:14:08 loke: sorry, didn't look at the screen again. i want to poke it with some parens and see if it yields something cool. if things would've turned out slightly differently, then i would have used the google docs thing in practice. but i'm generally always interested in getting data in/out of applications in a way that non-programmers like. google docs is one of those ways. 17:14:37 nyef: Only 57556 LOC in src/compiler/*.lisp. 17:15:22 Oladon: define your own package, named "OLADON", that uses two packages -- common-lisp and gossip-bot. Typing (in-package :oladon) in REPL will make your package current. Then all symbols which are external in the used packages won't have to be qualified. 17:15:40 madnificent: well, I'm heading to bed now as I just mentioned, but if you have input, corrections, whatever, please let me know 17:16:00 am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has joined #lisp 17:16:05 akovalenko: Ahh, interesting -- thank you. 17:16:06 loke: sure, thanks for building it! 17:17:11 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:17:34 dotimes is more sensible, "At the time result-form is processed, var is bound to the number of times the body was executed." 17:17:43 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:18:05 stassats: Is the list required to be a proper list in DOLIST? 17:18:16 yes 17:18:34 If so, VAR might simply be bound to the CAR of the CDR of the last CONS in the list. 17:18:38 stassats: it's exactly the same idea (one more update is done before result form is evaluated) 17:18:44 (That is, (CAR NIL).) 17:19:04 akovalenko: but NI is never useful, since it's always NIL 17:19:17 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 17:20:16 stassats: Really, it just exposes the underlying model a little more: It's a wrapper around DO. 17:20:26 and, you can use dotimes instead of LET for non-negative integers: (dotimes (x 10 (sqrt x))) 17:20:37 nanoc [~conanhome@186.13.161.188] has joined #lisp 17:21:18 (time (dotimes (x 10e9 (sqrt x)))) vs. (time (let ((x 10e9)) (sqrt x))) 17:21:40 pjb`: you just a sufficiently smart compiler 17:22:08 Umm... Wasn't it established that python is insufficiently smart for this? 17:22:18 and I'm not sure (dotimes (x 10 (sqrt x))) is well defined. 17:22:25 nyef: apparently, no 17:22:48 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:23:31 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 17:23:39 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:23:42 Yes, it's well defined. 17:24:00 on our way to sufficiently smart compiler, there will be a point where it will figure out this (dotimes ...) as constant foldable (so, after compiling forever, the output will be as fast as LET) 17:24:08 -!- cheezus [~Adium@76-10-168-148.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:24:17 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:24:24 dlowe [dlowe@nat/google/x-fqzidwlfgzkmovnj] has joined #lisp 17:25:13 akovalenko: Why would it compile forever? 17:25:30 -!- Kron [~Kron@129-97-120-142.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:26:09 aleron [~brad@31.sub-166-248-65.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 17:26:49 nyef: because of running (dotimes ...) at compile time :) [silly, i know] 17:27:22 well, 10e9 instructions is far from "forever" now 17:27:56 -!- dto1 is now known as dto 17:28:04 But... It's a linear increment, and thus the final value should be computable in constant time. 17:28:52 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.39] has joined #lisp 17:28:55 (time (dotimes (x (truncate 10e9) (sqrt x)))) => 2.745 seconds of real time 17:30:28 rather slow, i'd expect <1s. 17:30:47 stassats: Does that scale linearly? Does 10e8 take 0.274 seconds or so? 17:31:11 stassats: why do you call truncate on 10e9? 17:31:21 manuel_ [~manuel_@pD9FDE342.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:24 madnificent: Coerce it back to integer. 17:31:52 (Well, not /back/, but... You know what I mean.) 17:31:54 nyef: stassats: sorry, for some reason i read expt x 2 17:32:01 easyE` [Zh22lZMCSD@panix2.panix.com] has joined #lisp 17:33:06 sogeking99 [~sogeking9@5ac58a4e.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 17:33:22 cheezus [~Adium@ottawa-hs-64-26-155-215.s-ip.magma.ca] has joined #lisp 17:33:23 -!- cmm- [~cmm@109.67.208.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:34:00 nyef: (time (dotimes (x (truncate 10e8) (sqrt x)))) 0.279 seconds of real time 17:34:23 Okay, yay for linearity. 17:34:49 hey guys, is this list ((ONE) FOR ALL (AND (TWO (FOR ME)))) 4 elements long? 17:34:53 cmm [~cmm@109.67.208.243] has joined #lisp 17:34:58 sogeking99: yes. 17:35:31 (length '((ONE) FOR ALL (AND (TWO (FOR ME))))) 17:35:46 ok cool. 17:39:54 oconnore [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:45 -!- frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:43:03 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:43:47 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: away!] 17:44:39 -!- sogeking99 [~sogeking9@5ac58a4e.bb.sky.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:45:54 katerbau [~axel@xdsl-81-173-155-171.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:46:30 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-190-136.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:46:51 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-113-199.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 17:47:27 -!- pjb` [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:49:15 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 17:52:31 lisppaste [~lisppaste@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:34 marsell [~marsell@120.22.180.158] has joined #lisp 17:53:56 specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:06 clhs dolist 17:54:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_dolist.htm 17:54:26 Something is different with the bots since last time I did this. 17:54:27 oh, we have a specbot 17:54:43 Yes, hello. 17:54:56 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #lisp 17:55:55 clhs hopefully-it-does-not-use:read 17:55:55 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for hopefully-it-does-not-use:read. 17:55:56 :) 17:55:59 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 17:56:28 why would it? 17:56:37 Uh-oh. 17:56:48 Vivitron [~user@pool-108-7-56-243.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:51 Yeah, this isn't working. 17:57:07 are you talking about a lisp eval-bot? 17:57:16 -!- lisppaste [~lisppaste@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:57:32 -!- specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:57:36 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@2620:0:2820:b03:214:22ff:fe45:5204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:58:03 No, these aren't eval-bots. 17:58:13 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 17:58:14 We learned our lesson about those long, long ago. 17:58:22 heh, story? 17:58:30 sorry, I didn't catch the beginning 17:58:44 frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 17:58:47 ehu [~erik@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:58:47 Eval-bots basically destroy the signal-to-noise ratio in the channel. 17:59:07 lisppaste does announcements of new pastes from paste.lisp.org. 17:59:18 Learned in the butlerian jihad 17:59:20 specbot does documentation lookups, such as in clhs (as you saw). 17:59:25 Xach: +1 17:59:27 clhs 11.2 17:59:31 akovalenko: Already gone. 17:59:46 Hopefully we don't have to redo that silly scene where the mob kills a blender. 18:00:07 The third bot in the set, minion, is a limited chatbot that also has memo services and cliki page lookup. 18:00:16 troydm [~troydm@unaffiliated/troydm] has joined #lisp 18:00:16 -!- ehu [~erik@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:00:31 i have this '("test" (test)) 18:00:41 and "tell X about Y", right? 18:00:42 test itself is string parameter 18:00:42 nyef: Was there ever one that was "safe" for some measure of safe? I remember someone releasing a Parenscript eval-bot (website, not irc), and I emailed him an ls -l of his home directory... he took it down pretty quickly. 18:00:46 ehu [~erik@62.140.137.83] has joined #lisp 18:00:55 how can i make (test) inside evaluate 18:00:57 ? 18:01:01 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@2620:0:2820:b03:214:22ff:fe45:5204] has joined #lisp 18:01:03 Kron [~Kron@129-97-120-142.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 18:01:04 (list "test" (test)) 18:01:05 troydm: `("test" ,(test)) 18:01:06 -!- katerbau [~axel@xdsl-81-173-155-171.netcologne.de] has left #lisp 18:01:11 nyef: thx 18:01:38 oconnore: Oh, probably not. But you never know. It's a copper-plated bitch to try and secure lisp eval, though. 18:01:46 troydm: do you mean "i have this data structure" by have, and do you want to evaluate the (test) at run time? 18:02:01 oconnore: with VMs or jails. I can't think of any in which safety was enforced by the lisp code. 18:02:01 -!- Oladon [~Oladon@np34.co.returnpath.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:02:17 H4ns: yea , helped 18:02:31 ,(prin1-to-string test) 18:02:48 however it also added backqoutes 18:03:03 pkhuong: That makes sense. 18:03:03 how do i print that without them? 18:03:37 -!- easyE` [Zh22lZMCSD@panix2.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:03:52 the problem is i have sbcl run-program 18:04:03 Anyway, like I said, something changed in the bots since last time I tried putting them online, so they were accumulating nested debugger invocations. 18:04:13 i do (run-program "/bin/ls" '("-lh")) 18:04:18 I'd rather kill them now than run out of control stack from that. 18:04:26 and i want to provide it additional arg as a string 18:04:31 how do i do that? 18:04:37 troydm: are you aware of DIRECTORY ? 18:04:51 akovalenko: what's that? 18:05:01 akovalenko: i'm new to lisp 18:05:24 *nyef* would ask specbot about DIRECTORY, but specbot is currently pining for the fjords. 18:05:27 troydm: (run-program ".." `("-lh" ,(my-function-gimme-more)) 18:05:35 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:05:44 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA35673.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:06:16 akovalenko: i'll try that one spasibo tovarisch :) 18:06:52 pnq [~nick@ACA35673.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 18:06:53 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@54009F47.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has joined #lisp 18:06:53 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@54009F47.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has quit [Changing host] 18:06:53 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 18:09:18 btw where do i find function docs 18:09:32 like i'm interested now in open function 18:09:50 Have a look for something called the "hyperspec". 18:10:53 nyef: thx 18:11:03 troydm: C-c C-d h (see http://slime-tips.tumblr.com/) 18:11:37 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA35673.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:12:53 http://l1sp.org/cl/open 18:13:11 H4ns: thx going to bookmark that one 18:14:11 don't bookmark, subsribe! 18:14:16 scribe 18:14:37 it's updated daily, until i'm hit buy a bus 18:14:38 stassats: ..pharisee, hypocrite 18:15:21 partial-word self-corrections may be funny 18:15:55 stassats: even weekends? 18:16:03 stassats: hope that won't happen anytime soon 18:16:15 stassats: but sorry i don't have tumblr account so i can't subscribe 18:16:23 felideon: especially weekends 18:16:25 troydm: RSS 18:16:42 troydm: sure you can, you don't need a tumblr account to do what felideon says 18:16:43 felideon: that makes sense :) 18:16:46 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 18:17:15 -!- solfraze [~jfrazier@c-66-30-113-136.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:17:15 there's also http://lisptips.com/ 18:17:31 or just subscribe to http://planet.lisp.org 18:17:33 -!- benny [~benny@i577A8A85.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:18:17 btw what are the symbols that start with : ? 18:18:28 troydm: that is the syntax for a keyword symbol 18:18:30 -!- ngz [~user@201.144.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:18:36 Oladon [~Oladon@np34.co.returnpath.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:49 -!- ehu [~erik@62.140.137.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:18:56 Xach: keywords are predefined by compiler? 18:18:57 *felideon* creates a tumblr accout just to tumblr-scribe to slime tips 18:19:04 troydm: http://l1sp.org/cl/keyword has some more info 18:19:14 troydm: they are self-evaluating literal constants 18:19:38 troydm: not anything like a reserved word or keyword in some other context. 18:19:57 it's a shortcut for keyword::symbol 18:20:42 stassats: Single-colon, surely? 18:20:55 no, two 18:21:02 single colon doesn't intern 18:21:03 Oh, right, forces interning. 18:21:29 Of course, as soon as it's interned, it gets exported, because it's keyword-package. 18:21:47 Also known, on some implementations, as empty-string-named-package. 18:23:00 -!- replore_ [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:26:27 this tumblr stuff is spiffy 18:26:56 benny [~benny@i577A21AD.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:27:22 what is tumblr? 18:27:35 tumblr is a blogging system. 18:27:45 It's where lemonodor has overflown. 18:27:52 the lemon juice dried up 18:28:05 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_ce.htm has some useful info about valid patterns for tokens 18:28:10 But the odor is still there. 18:28:21 keyword::foo is valid but ::foo is not 18:28:24 is it power by parenthesis? 18:28:27 -!- SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:28:29 Guthur: no 18:29:10 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 18:30:05 -!- cheezus [~Adium@ottawa-hs-64-26-155-215.s-ip.magma.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:30:06 cheezus1 [~Adium@76-10-168-148.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 18:30:19 -!- lbc [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:30:22 SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 18:32:32 I use it for lisptips.com because it's pretty convenient. 18:33:11 i use it because Xach uses it 18:33:28 i heard there was lisp tips and start looking 18:33:46 so many lisp tips 18:33:47 srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:53 i'm waiting for the printed book. 18:34:13 -!- cheezus1 [~Adium@76-10-168-148.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:34:23 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:34:26 -!- spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Quit: spacefrogg] 18:35:41 Jasko [~tjasko@170.122.250.3] has joined #lisp 18:36:03 cheezus [~Adium@76-10-168-148.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 18:40:29 i found Common Lisp the Language and LISPcraft in the attic. hm. 18:40:45 Heh. LISPcraft. 18:40:55 Franz lisp, wasn't that? 18:41:59 I didn't know there was a precursor to Common LISPcraft 18:42:17 I may still have my copy of LISPcraft. 18:42:35 Yes. 18:42:40 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:42:41 Then again, I may have thrown it in the attic... 18:43:06 (: 18:43:23 -!- BrokenCog [~danielj@adsl-065-081-078-141.sip.pns.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:43:27 I'm still trying to get CLAIM working in SBCL. The earlier help was quite useful, but now I'm running into a "connection refused" error when the socket tries to connect 18:43:33 Any ideas? 18:44:09 Oladon: First thing that comes to mind is finding out where you're trying to connect to, and making sure that there's something on that end. 18:44:15 Oladon: sounds like it is trying to connect to the wrong host and/or port. Or you might be firewalled in some way. 18:44:39 Mmm. Firewall is the other major possibility. 18:44:59 I thought of both of those, but in this case I'm clueless as to how to debug this 18:45:11 :( 18:45:31 Do you know what server and port it is trying to connect to? 18:45:32 Oladon: Read the source code, find out where it's trying to connect. Use google, find out where it should be trying to connect. Bring the former in sync with the latter. 18:45:59 Also, try with some other program that you are reasonably confident works... like telnet. 18:46:37 fluffycms: Congrats on a good attic. 18:46:43 pmau5 [~patryk@141.212.74.253] has joined #lisp 18:46:47 Xach, nyef: Yeah, I've read the source code and based on the searching I've done online it looks correct. It's attempting to connect to toc.oscar.aol.com on port 5190 18:47:14 nyef: I did attempt to telnet there, but wasn't sure if that's a "valid" way to troubleshoot this. I'm not too familiar with these protocols :( 18:47:22 -!- frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:47:36 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 18:47:51 Yeah, telnet is typically a good first attempt. If telnet gives a connection refused message then the server is clearly not talking to you. 18:48:02 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:48:04 Oladon: well, actually, toc.oscar.aol.com:9898, but it doesn't help: iirc, AOL replaced TOC with something new 18:48:04 Oladon: If it's a TCP stream, you can just telnet or netcat to the port. If it's udp, you can use netcat in udp mode. 18:48:22 akovalenko: right, TOC2... my understanding was that it's still using that server though 18:48:30 CLAIM was supposedly updated for the protocol change 18:48:37 Oladon: that server is not listening on those ports. 18:49:41 Xach: hrm... okay, back to Google. 18:50:18 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.176] has quit [Quit: Offline] 18:50:38 Doing this for a company hack-a-thon :) 18:51:38 -!- anvandare [~anvandare@78-22-145-191.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:52:44 *Xach* would add claim to quicklisp, but doesn't want to add something that is obsolete 18:53:33 Well, there was a post by the author about updating it to the new protocol 18:55:51 -!- SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:55:52 hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:49 SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 18:56:50 nazgjunk [nazgjunk@pdpc/supporter/active/nazgjunk] has joined #lisp 18:56:52 kpreid [~kpreid@Conors-iPad.wlan.clarkson.edu] has joined #lisp 18:58:22 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.233] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:59:03 login.oscar.aol.com seems to listen on port 5190. 18:59:36 Indeed... 19:00:10 If I change the *default-toc-host* to that, then it doesn't give the connection refused... but now it gives a type-error expected type character error 19:00:12 -!- ch077179 [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 19:00:28 ch077179 [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has joined #lisp 19:00:43 Paste the error to paste.lisp.org and maybe it'll make sense to someone. 19:01:24 good call 19:01:39 -!- ch077179 [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:02:17 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-23-195.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:03:40 Oladon: i suspect claim wants to treat the socket like a bivalent stream and write either character or binary data to it. 19:04:12 There was something about that on the github page -- he said that it "fakes" the binary data 19:04:29 Where's the github page? 19:04:44 https://github.com/wiseman/claim 19:05:04 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.233] has joined #lisp 19:06:23 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:07:10 *Xach* doesn't know what might be up 19:07:16 anvandare [~anvandare@78-22-153-78.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 19:07:23 -!- cheezus [~Adium@76-10-168-148.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:07:47 I've installed quicklisp and added it to my init file, yet I don't seem to be able to :use packages that I have installed using ql:quickload 19:08:45 in this case I did (ql:quickload :clack) and SBCL is puking on (defpackage simple-app (:use :cl :clack)) 19:08:48 process: quickload loads systems. 19:09:00 process: systems don't have to define packages that match the system name. 19:09:27 On the other hand, clack does. 19:09:33 process: how does sbcl puke? 19:09:56 *Xach* updates clack, rechecks 19:10:04 > The name "CLACK" does not designate any package. 19:10:10 > (SB-INT:%FIND-PACKAGE-OR-LOSE "CLACK") 19:10:33 process: did you quickload just before the defpackage? 19:10:48 Hmm, I was able to connect using a downloadable AIM bot that uses Net::OSCAR... so now I just have to figure out how the two are different... 19:11:10 The latest clack might not actually define a package named clack. 19:11:14 pkhuong: tried both 19:11:30 Nope, it does. 19:11:45 process: I can't reproduce your error. Can you paste a transcript to paste.lisp.org? 19:12:20 Xach (and anyone else interested): here's the error I'm getting now: http://paste.lisp.org/display/125089 19:12:25 cheezus [~Adium@ottawa-hs-64-26-155-214.s-ip.magma.ca] has joined #lisp 19:13:04 http://paste.lisp.org/display/125091 19:13:58 Oladon: redefine CRLF in claim.lisp -- replace #(13 10) with #(#\Return #\Newline) 19:14:36 process: where are you actually loading the clack package in your lisp file? 19:14:37 Uncle_Vernon [~MeanWeen@cpe-174-099-078-179.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:14:52 -!- milanj [~milanj_@77-46-224-3.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:14:52 ... Just make sure that #\Return really is (code-char 13) and #\Newline really is (code-char 10). 19:15:06 akovalenko: I'll try that, thanks 19:15:11 process: or, put in other words, if you start sbcl from scratch, it won't automatically load clack or any other system that you may have quickloaded. 19:15:35 yes, it's working for me now 19:15:57 I had (ql:quickload :clack) in there at first but that was failing when I used sbcl --script 19:16:06 but now that I'm using --load that works 19:16:31 thanks for the newbie help 19:16:50 hmm, akovalenko... now it's giving: http://paste.lisp.org/display/125092 19:17:12 -!- cheezus [~Adium@ottawa-hs-64-26-155-214.s-ip.magma.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:17:18 it looks like the sign-on is being executed properly 19:18:22 -!- MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-179.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:18:39 ch077179 [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has joined #lisp 19:19:15 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 19:19:39 milanj [~milanj_@109-93-129-223.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 19:20:55 -!- pmau5 [~patryk@141.212.74.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:21:06 H4ns: What have you used in the past to handle CRUD-form-heavy web apps? 19:21:36 stuff like building out a form, making sure it validates, reporting errors to the user, repopulating fields, etc. 19:21:48 sykopomp: i have used this bknr thing with handwritten javascript on the client side. 19:22:10 sykopomp: (and handwritten lisp validation on the server side) 19:22:26 hm 19:23:17 sykopomp: if i'd start now, i'd not handle "forms" on the server at all. i'd make it all into rest requests on the client. 19:24:35 H4ns: well, what I'm thinking is more of an abstraction like django's form builders that lets you pass in the REST parameters to this object that then goes through, validates, and collects any errors, and lets you pick up validated values, errors, etc, from that one place. 19:26:26 cheezus [~Adium@ottawa-hs-64-26-155-214.s-ip.magma.ca] has joined #lisp 19:27:13 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@2620:0:2820:b03:214:22ff:fe45:5204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:27:48 https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/topics/forms/ See this, and how you then write a REST handler and simply pass arguments in. 19:28:22 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:28:27 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@2620:0:2820:b03:214:22ff:fe45:5204] has joined #lisp 19:29:03 Anyone else have suggestions of things to try? 19:30:07 Oladon: the same error now, or something different? 19:30:21 akovalenko: different, pasted it here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/125092 19:30:36 Seems to be getting most of the way through the sign-on process 19:30:48 gkeith_glaptop_ [gkeith@nat/google/x-utabptxrgnxcxtww] has joined #lisp 19:30:55 sykopomp: seems like a good approach. i don't currently plan stuff like this, so i need to pass 19:31:40 H4ns: I was just wondering if you knew of anything along those lines or thought it was a terrible idea. I'm going to try and implement something like this for myself now. :) 19:31:51 hi everyone 19:32:06 I'm a newcomer in lisp and I have a newbie's question 19:32:06 ... connection reset by peer, not remote end closed connection? 19:32:33 nods, nyef, that's the weird part. Also note the "closing connection to server", which is a message generated by close-aim-connection 19:32:40 cheezus1 [~Adium@76-10-168-148.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 19:32:57 but I don't see where that should be getting called 19:33:05 hakzsam: what's up? 19:33:14 Oladon: I'm not seeing that message, though. 19:33:15 -!- cheezus [~Adium@ottawa-hs-64-26-155-214.s-ip.magma.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:33:26 why (cons '(1 2) '(3)) returns ((1 2) 3) and (cons '(1 2) 3) returns ((1 2) . 3) ? 19:33:52 oh, weird, sorry... it's not on that paste for some reason... just when I repeat that attempt 19:33:53 hakzsam: because of how lists and conses are represented and printed in lisp. 19:33:55 -!- aleron [~brad@31.sub-166-248-65.myvzw.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:34:01 which means that claim thinks there's a stream open 19:34:11 hakzsam: http://www.cs.gmu.edu/~sean/lisp/cons/ 19:34:24 Okay, so it's not a clean disconnect when that error occurs. 19:34:31 H4ns, thanks for the link 19:34:34 nod, looks like it, nyef 19:34:57 Beyond that, if it's repeatable, I'd look into problems with the FLAP signon process. 19:35:15 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-092-128.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 19:35:41 How would you go about troubleshooting that? I'm unable to telnet to login.oscar.aol.com:519-0 19:35:44 s/-// 19:35:55 Get a real client and tcpdump. 19:36:07 hmm 19:36:32 You want tcpdump so you can watch what happens on the wire, and a real client so you can compare to a reference implementation. 19:36:39 -!- sammi` [sammi@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-vstajykldpatyzin] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:36:51 Hmm... I think Pidgin's debugging window should do the trick 19:37:45 hakzsam: try: (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.common-lisp.picture) (mapcar 'com.informatimago.common-lisp.picture.cons-to-ascii:draw-list '( ((1 2) 3) ((1 2) . 3) )) 19:38:06 oh, those painful packages. 19:38:26 Xach: he's a java man, too! 19:38:42 pjb, what is that ? 19:38:54 hakzsam: it draws the cons cells in ascii-art. 19:39:07 hakzsam: so you can see the difference between ((1 2) 3) and ((1 2) . 3). 19:39:08 hmm, looks like Pidgin's debug window isn't granular enough 19:39:32 -!- gkeith_glaptop_ [gkeith@nat/google/x-utabptxrgnxcxtww] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:39:36 pjb, oh thanks, I'm going to try that code right now 19:40:10 mmh.. package "QL" not found 19:40:29 quicklisp is available from www.quicklisp.org 19:41:50 -!- manuel_ [~manuel_@pD9FDE342.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:42:42 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:43:25 manuel_ [~manuel_@pD9FDDF62.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:49 anttih [~aholvika@backport.reaktor.fi] has joined #lisp 19:44:02 -!- anttih [~aholvika@backport.reaktor.fi] has left #lisp 19:45:42 Xach, so, I installed quicklisp but the package QL is still not found in emacs 19:46:30 hakzsam: are you using emacs lisp or common lisp? 19:46:33 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@186.13.161.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:46:34 -!- jacks- [~redmundia@84.122.73.141.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: Chateando desde http://webchat.redmundial.org (Session timeout)] 19:46:53 common lisp with slime 19:47:20 hakzsam: if you load quicklisp, it should define a package named QL. if there is no package named QL, quicklisp has not been loaded. 19:47:48 actually, I have to learn CL because I have some courses about this in my university 19:48:08 Learn it to become well-rounded and aware of a nice language, too. 19:48:31 ^ 19:48:40 yes, I think it's a nice language too 19:48:45 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@Conors-iPad.wlan.clarkson.edu] has quit [Quit: Offline] 19:48:46 but it's hard for newcomers :) 19:48:53 hakzsam: anyway, how did you try to install quicklisp? 19:48:55 pmau5 [~patryk@141.212.187.193] has joined #lisp 19:49:19 curl -O http://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp && sbcl --load quicklisp.lisp 19:49:24 and * (quicklisp-quickstart:install) 19:49:33 Ok, what happened then? 19:49:46 exactly this http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ 19:50:01 I mean ==== quicklisp installed ==== 19:50:03 hakzsam: Not quite exactly, otherwise QL would not give you package not found. 19:50:09 mmh.. 19:50:15 Maybe paste a transcript to paste.lisp.org? 19:50:19 Including the error bit? 19:50:52 ok 19:50:55 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 19:51:01 Let's go with "quit SBCL, started a new instance, and didn't previously run add-to-init-file"? 19:51:10 No spoilers, nyef 19:51:14 hehe 19:51:23 I'll get back to work, then. 19:51:41 ngz [~user@201.144.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:15 *Oladon* is trying to pick through the Net::OSCAR Perl module and figure out what CLAIM isn't doing 19:52:53 Xach, http://paste.lisp.org/+2OIV 19:53:14 I'm not sure if this paste is *correct* 19:53:18 It is. 19:53:40 You need to add (load #P"/home/hakzsam/quicklisp/setup.lisp") in your ~/.sbclrc file. 19:53:49 hakzsam: quicklisp.lisp is only for the initial installation. after the initial installation, you load ~/quicklisp/setup.lisp to get it loaded. 19:54:20 or use the 0 restart there 19:54:35 ok 19:55:54 works fine, thanks guys 19:56:01 hooray 19:57:34 Xach: you could have appreciated my (setf *print-case* :downcase) at least... 19:58:16 Your restraint is admirable 19:58:21 nanoc [~conanhome@186.157.170.3] has joined #lisp 19:59:31 is there a way to search for a defined symbol? 19:59:41 APROPOS ? 19:59:48 specbot: apropos 19:59:54 hm 19:59:54 marw [~marw@unaffiliated/marw] has joined #lisp 19:59:55 H4ns: No specbot, sorry. 20:00:07 kpreid [~kpreid@Conors-iPad.wlan.clarkson.edu] has joined #lisp 20:00:13 nyef: beautiful 20:00:43 H4ns: Something changed in the bot environment while I was gone, and having the bots actually connected was throwing errors all over the place, so I took them down again. 20:00:43 hello. is there a way to see documentation for lisp functions in SLIME? 20:00:56 H4ns: ... and the prefix was "clhs", not "specbot", anyway. 20:00:56 nyef: ok. sad. 20:01:07 marw: C-c C-d d or C-c C-d h 20:01:12 marw: for standard functions, what nyef wrote. 20:01:37 Xach: C-c C-d d also works for user-defined functions, provided they have docstrings! 20:01:58 H4ns: I'll probably take another look this weekend to see if I can figure out what's up. 20:02:22 nyef: cool. i'm missing our bots. 20:03:09 why car() is equal to first() and cdr() to rest() ? Is this better to use first() instead of car() for example (I mean for readability) ? 20:03:10 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 20:03:31 hakzsam: they convey different intent. 20:03:48 hakzsam: please don't write function names with () at the end. 20:03:52 and don't call functions with two paranthsis after them 20:04:08 stassats: first tumbler, now this. stop copying me! 20:04:17 sorry, I'm a C programmer :) 20:04:21 I should probably see about getting internet installed at the sleeping-place. Should get me an extra hour or so per day to do useful stuff. 20:04:33 nyef: get the biggest internet you can find. 20:04:41 Xach: Verizon fios? 20:04:43 Xach, so, could you explain the difference, please ? 20:04:44 thanks, nyef 20:05:12 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:05:55 hakzsam: car and cdr can be useful when treating conses as generic two-element containers, like when they are used to construct trees. first and rest can be useful when talking about conses as lists. 20:06:38 also, car and cdr can be used to save disc space 20:07:10 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 20:07:13 ok 20:07:15 CAR and CDR compose better than FIRST and REST do. 20:07:27 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #lisp 20:07:37 I mean, we have CADR, but not FIRREST. 20:08:08 nyef: because it only be used on lists, you would never see the FIRREST for the trees. 20:08:20 "because it should" 20:08:24 Heh! Well played. 20:08:27 -!- mkp [~mickp@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 20:08:46 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-169-125.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:08:48 -!- y3llow [~y3llow@111-240-169-125.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:09:02 nyef: I saw your issues with the bots earlier. 20:09:08 nyef: did you succeed? 20:09:23 nyef: but you can always use (funcall (intern (format nil"~:@(~:r~)" 2) :cl) list) 20:09:30 ehu: I realized that the environment within the lisp image had changed sufficiently that I didn't have time to sort it out. 20:09:44 ok. 20:09:49 so, 20:09:58 you've restarted them elsewhere? 20:10:00 ah. 20:10:02 eh. 20:10:11 I'll take another look later, possibly this weekend. 20:10:27 y3llow [~y3llow@111-240-165-121.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:28 I may be able to restart them. 20:10:32 s0ber_ [~s0ber@111-240-165-121.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:39 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 20:10:46 Umm... Might not be a good idea, given the failure mode I was seeing. 20:11:05 *Oladon* growls 20:11:22 The REPL was hitting the debugger each time someone parted a channel. 20:11:33 And, of course, that nested quite quickly. 20:11:47 gkeith_glaptop_ [gkeith@nat/google/x-jckhwsbwnyyfunjx] has joined #lisp 20:11:56 or better: (defun list-accessor-successor (name) (intern (format nil"~:@(~:r~)" (1+ (funcall name (loop for i from 1 to 10 collect i)))) :cl)) 20:11:58 ok. 20:12:04 (list-accessor-successor 'first) => SECOND 20:12:21 lisp is powerful! 20:12:37 nyef: so, this isn't about the type of environment they were started in? I mean, did you use the non-unicode sbcl to start them with? 20:12:48 -!- y3llow [~y3llow@111-240-165-121.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:12:57 ehu: I think it's more that cl-irc was updated or something similar. 20:13:09 y3llow [~y3llow@111-240-165-121.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:20 hmm. I didn't do that. 20:13:21 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 20:13:24 who else maintains them? 20:13:29 you and I, I thought. 20:13:32 ehu: I'm not really prepared to speculate more than that without actually taking the time to really look through it. 20:13:47 chandler, if he's around, maybe? 20:13:53 gkeith_glaptop__ [gkeith@nat/google/x-vljvlwtjadksqyvd] has joined #lisp 20:13:53 -!- gkeith_glaptop__ [gkeith@nat/google/x-vljvlwtjadksqyvd] has quit [Client Quit] 20:13:58 I think one or two other people have access to the lisppaste account. 20:13:59 is it ok to as very basic stuff, or that is frowned upon? 20:14:10 depends on how you ask 20:14:11 And anyone with the root password can obviously get in. 20:14:26 yea. 20:14:32 fe[nl]ix: did you work on lisppaste? 20:14:58 marw: It's best to get the fundamentals from a good tutorial source. Questions while learning are fine. If you don't show any progress or clear ability to absorb the advice you're given, it can get pretty annoying. 20:15:01 cl-irc [~cl-irc@95.73.223.139] has joined #lisp 20:15:10 cl-irc is here 20:15:16 -!- y3llow [~y3llow@111-240-165-121.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:15:34 I don't think H4ns has enough time to work on lisppaste -- or is interested in that part of cl-net. 20:15:34 no errors so far 20:15:38 y3llow [~y3llow@111-240-165-121.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:49 ehu: no, sorry 20:16:10 marw: i think practical common lisp and paradigms of ai programming are pretty good books for learning CL. 20:16:14 H4ns: actually, that's a good thing :-) Then you can't have changed the environment. 20:16:17 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:20 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.233] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:16:33 H4ns: meanie 20:16:41 Posterdati [~tapioca@host104-230-dynamic.7-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:16:43 easyE` [BINEppryd3@panix2.panix.com] has joined #lisp 20:16:49 Anyway, I propose to let it lie until I have the time to sit down and try to figure out what's going on with it. 20:17:16 nyef: ok. can you mail me if/when you find out what may be causing it? 20:17:39 -!- Tasser [~freak@subtle/contributor/Tass] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:17:40 ehu: Sure. Or leave you a memo on minion or something. :-P 20:17:57 If I remember, that is. 20:18:15 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-178-24.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:18:20 thanks. 20:18:56 -!- dodecahedron [~joel@lolnet.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:18:59 so, I think I understood what cons cells are and what is a dotted pair, now, do you know some tutorials in order to learn CL for a newcomer ? 20:19:10 dodecahedron [~joel@lolnet.org] has joined #lisp 20:19:12 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-178-24.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:19:17 hakzsam: can you program already? 20:19:21 hakzsam: since you're already a programmer, PCL is indicated. 20:19:46 hakzsam: Tutorial recommendations depend on your existing level of programming skill, and (to a lesser extent) the sort of things you want to use lisp for. 20:19:56 H4ns, yes, I already programmed in lisp a little bit however 20:20:04 pjb, what is PCL ? 20:20:04 hakzsam: also have a look at http://cliki.net where you'll find all the pointers. 20:20:08 gsathya [~Sathya@unaffiliated/gsathya] has joined #lisp 20:20:18 PCL = Practical Common Lisp = http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 20:20:41 hakzsam: basic lisp techniques by cooper got me started well 20:20:54 hakzsam: pcl is more comprehensive and works better with open source lisps 20:21:38 -!- cl-irc [~cl-irc@95.73.223.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:21:40 *nyef* found a document called "SSDN2" to be rather enlightening, but wouldn't quite recommend his path to learning lisp to anyone. 20:21:47 thanks for the links 20:22:12 Hi Everyone! I just wrote this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/125096 Can someone please appraise this? 20:22:47 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 20:22:50 samebchase: What's it supposed to do? 20:22:51 -!- gkeith_glaptop_ [gkeith@nat/google/x-jckhwsbwnyyfunjx] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:22:55 nyef, yes, I have good skills in C, I participated at the Google Summer of Code in 2010 as a student and 2011 as a mentor :) 20:23:12 Looks like a lower-case ceaser-cypher variant? 20:23:13 but lisp is not C 20:23:22 Xach: Oh sorry. It's a substitution cipher 20:23:42 samebchase: I would probably use cond instead of nested ifs 20:24:00 bobbysmith007: hmm 20:24:14 samebchase: Looks like a shift of 13 gives you rot-13? 20:24:21 samebchase: I don't recommend doing arithmetic on the char-code of characters. The values you get from it are not standardized. 20:24:23 samebchase: you could move the ifs into the argument list of index-char rather than calling it from the four cases. not sure if it would look better though 20:24:34 couldn't you use modulus for rotation? 20:24:37 pjb: wouldn't it be a beautiful name: com.informatimago.common-lisp.ceterum.censeo.carthaginem.esse.delendam 20:24:53 Yeah, I was going to suggest modular arithmetic. 20:24:54 samebchase: Also, I think I'd formulate it as (map 'string ...) instead of coercing a loop/collect. 20:25:04 that paste is just how C would look if it were written in lisp, right? 20:25:05 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-092-128.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:25:15 digit-char is good for (English) caesar 20:25:16 madnificent: pretty much ;-) 20:25:27 Yeah, map 'string, and modular arithmetic. 20:25:44 akovalenko: Nice abuse of base-36! 20:26:13 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@Conors-iPad.wlan.clarkson.edu] has quit [Quit: Offline] 20:26:14 *akovalenko* remembers RADIX-50 (from RT-11) too well 20:26:18 samebchase: i like your attitude :) hope you get on track learning lisp :) 20:26:21 end encrypt-word and decrypt-word look suspiciously similar 20:26:32 kousik [kousikkuma@117.193.152.220] has joined #lisp 20:26:33 it will only be that way if you're using 13 shift 20:26:45 akovalenko: cesarum is the name of the library Caesar built on the ruins of the library of Alexandra... 20:26:55 stassats: Actually, if you negate the shift parameter when calling decrypt-word...? 20:26:56 -!- cheezus1 [~Adium@76-10-168-148.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:27:16 pjb: hi 20:27:17 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-092-128.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 20:27:19 nyef: decrypt-word is kinda redundant 20:27:22 Posterdati: hi! 20:27:44 yuvipanda [~yuvipanda@117.193.78.37] has joined #lisp 20:27:50 Xach: are there any other better functions? 20:27:50 -!- gsathya [~Sathya@unaffiliated/gsathya] has left #lisp 20:27:50 nyef: or substract it from 26 20:28:01 samebchase: Yes. Yes, it is. 20:28:13 francogrex [~user@109.130.137.79] has joined #lisp 20:28:29 nyef: but it will be weird calling decrypt-word with a negative arg 20:28:44 nyef: I mean encrypt-word 20:28:46 stassats: But that's the size of the ring, so it's the same operation. 20:29:28 cheezus [~Adium@174-137-229-117.ip.tor.radiant.net] has joined #lisp 20:30:18 nyef: yes, but what if you don't want negative arguments 20:30:25 (map 'string (lambda (ch) (let* ((alpha "ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZABCDEFGHIJKLM") (p (position ch alpha :test 'char-equal))) (if p (aref alpha (+ p 13)) ch))) "It's simplier!") --> "VG'F FVZCYVRE!" 20:30:31 -!- kousik [kousikkuma@117.193.152.220] has left #lisp 20:30:36 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: mstevens] 20:30:40 -!- Kron [~Kron@129-97-120-142.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:30:52 Tasser [~freak@subtle/contributor/Tass] has joined #lisp 20:31:09 stassats: Then don't use them? 20:31:17 pjb: now you did his homework 20:31:44 nyef: yes, subtracting from 26 will give a positive shift 20:31:50 samebchase: the worse of your code, is that it doesn't work. On CL implementations running on z/OS... 20:32:04 stassats: But in the context of the ring, it's still the same number. 20:32:18 pjb: ... EBCDIC? 20:32:35 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBCDIC 20:33:06 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-113-199.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:19 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.192.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:33:19 pjb: what is z/OS? 20:33:39 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z/OS 20:33:51 -!- Uncle_Vernon is now known as MeanWeen 20:33:56 pjb: Have a look at 13.1.6, I think that disallows EBCDIC. 20:34:00 Posterdati: one of the main OSes for IBM z Series Mainframes. In developements since early 60s 20:34:13 And it's maintained, if you want to know: Latest stable release Release 12 (V1R12) / September 24, 2010 20:34:44 what lisp was it that ran on z/OS? 20:34:45 nyef: No, ebcdic conforms. 20:34:47 pjb: that's just last *full* release 20:35:06 p_l|backup: yes, there are probably security patches since. 20:35:13 ah is a unix clone :) good 20:35:29 Posterdati: nope 20:35:40 it's older than unix 20:35:52 nyef: notice that 13.1.6 constraints are a pjb: what is z/OS? 20:36:04 *stassats* braces himself for an hour-long discussion about irrelevant systems 20:36:06 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z/OS 20:36:07 you can probably run CLISP or ECL on it 20:36:27 Neat! So it does. 20:36:55 H4ns: it wasn't homework! 20:37:03 Clearly, we need to make a lisp that uses EBCDIC internally, and has external-formats that map back to ASCII. 20:37:05 samebchase: ok, apologies! :) 20:37:07 from wikipedia "The Open Group certifies z/OS as a compliant UNIX operating system" 20:37:22 Posterdati: that's the SUS subsystem 20:37:23 H4ns: A guy on another channel wanted to do it, so I just wanted to try it 20:37:31 H4ns: no problem 20:37:34 Posterdati: please give it a try. you'll be severely alienated 20:37:58 Posterdati: similar to how OpenVMS has compat libs to compile POSIX programs 20:38:10 ah ok 20:38:24 H4ns: I haven't got a mainframe at home 20:38:30 ... Did any of the open-source VMS clones actually produce anything approaching a complete system? 20:38:39 nyef: haha 20:38:53 nyef: nope 20:38:56 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:38:56 Posterdati: then rest assured: it is not unix, and it is nothing like it. 20:39:20 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:40:24 nyef: the most interesting one was actually not targeted as a clone, but grabbed some features from it (QIO, logical variables? and few other things) 20:40:55 nyef_ [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:10 -!- anvandare [~anvandare@78-22-153-78.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:42:18 H4ns: IBM has got a lot of systems and software collected in the years 20:43:01 -!- nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:43:02 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:43:07 (= HAL IBM) 20:43:10 Posterdati: and because of that, z/os is unix? 20:43:23 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:43:25 It's all theoretical 20:43:33 Theatrical 20:43:46 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 20:43:55 ehu: I didn't 20:44:05 it'd be an interesting platform to run Lisp on, using native APIs, IMHO 20:44:18 But getting access to develop is PITA 20:44:23 Posterdati: (equal (map 'string 'code-char (mapcar '1+ (map 'list 'char-code "HAL"))) "IBM") 20:44:32 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:44:41 H4ns: it could be 20:44:44 Posterdati: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAxq5jipl4k 20:44:58 Posterdati: but IT IS NOT. 20:45:45 Posterdati: ... I worked a bit on MVS 3.8 and z/OS V12. Believe me, Unix is at best "emulated" there 20:45:56 H4ns: I think even AIX could not be defined a UNIX... 20:46:04 argh 20:46:15 argh! 20:46:23 HG`` [~HG@p5DC055EE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:36 H4ns: at start it wasn't a UNIX 20:46:51 oh, just seeing that video makes me realize how glad I am to be not working on mainframes anymore 20:46:54 Posterdati: AIX actually can, though it's definitely an interesting one... (lsattr -l sys0 <--- wtf?) 20:47:09 *-El 20:47:28 dfox [~dfox@2001:470:9d8f:0:4261:86ff:fe8e:8446] has joined #lisp 20:48:49 p_l|backup: and what about linux then? 20:49:15 Posterdati: an asylum overtaken by inmates, mainly ignoring Unix philosophy 20:49:25 lol 20:49:55 Why is it that C-a does a "select all" in most programs on linux, but moves the insertion caret to the beginning of the line on OS X? 20:50:10 -!- HG` [~HG@p579F760A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:50:20 nyef_: mix of windows and emacs bindings 20:50:21 Because linux UIs are trying to copy windows, not try to be excellent on their own merit. 20:51:18 -!- marw [~marw@unaffiliated/marw] has left #lisp 20:52:43 nyef_, did KDE not have lots of cool windows eye candy before Windows 20:53:33 Guthur: Irix had a lot of eye candy before Windows 20:53:34 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:53:38 nyef_: are you talking about the window manager, or about the applications running on it? 20:53:55 ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 20:54:12 nyef_: xfce is not like windows 20:54:19 p_l|backup, not linux though, hehe 20:54:24 -!- gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:54:28 madnificent: dunno about nyef, I'm talking about applications 20:54:36 and desktop environments 20:54:45 frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 20:55:18 gkeith_glaptop_ [gkeith@nat/google/x-dkxdmfbtbccfswyv] has joined #lisp 20:55:46 Mmm. The whole experience is just slightly askew, at best. 20:56:03 Oh well. 20:56:11 anvandare [~anvandare@dD5770EE9.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 20:56:26 probably could be worse 20:56:52 nyef_: which experience? 20:57:39 ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:44 Shaftoe_ [~memet@88.242.49.89] has joined #lisp 20:58:13 good html parsers? 20:58:28 html = xml that can be broken =) 20:58:48 p_l|backup: but you don't have his opinion :) 20:59:04 Hello. Assuming I have a large list of "voxels" (points in 3d space), what is the easiest way of visualizing them in an efficient way, such that they will be interactive? I assume opengl is overkill. 20:59:15 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.68.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:59:46 Shaftoe_: cxml or cl-libxml2 21:00:00 H4ns: thanks. 21:00:11 nyef_: to be honoust, i have used linux almost exclusively in the past few years and windows seems to be far more tedious than linux is to me. though i would like it if our browsers were as fast as windows's browsers 21:00:42 madnificent, browsers? 21:01:23 do you mean hardware accelerated rasterization of web pages? 21:01:35 -!- pmau5 [~patryk@141.212.187.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:01:35 Okay, fun as this conversation is, it's time for me to get going. G'evening all. 21:01:41 -!- nyef_ [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Good evening all.] 21:02:04 dabd [~dabd@a79-169-214-13.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 21:02:15 a windows fan is going 21:02:33 Guthur: try firefox on windows and compare it to linux, for instance, the rendering is just faster. 21:03:11 madnificent: try chrome on linux 21:03:38 I recently moved back to FF, chrome started annoying me 21:03:39 especially, some of these "voxels" have alpha-value 21:03:44 Try cl-qt-web-browser ... :) Or conkeror. 21:03:48 i use chrome on linux, and it's acceptable, but i was really surprised about the speed of firefox on windows, i think it beats chromium (which i use) on linux. 21:03:55 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.79.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:05:00 redline6561: it would probably be acceptable, but we try to use the browsers in order to see if others could use it... and i really doubt there's much market share in something specifically for conkeror (even though it is indeed another webkit browser) 21:05:12 make that 'the' webkit browser, it deserves that 21:06:08 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.75.180] has joined #lisp 21:06:23 mozilla apparently doing a massive cleanup of the FF code 21:06:32 removing lots of mem leaks 21:06:35 maybe that will help 21:07:03 Guthur: i wasn't actually complaining about FF, but the speed difference is just rediculous 21:07:30 yeah, just thought I'd mention it 21:08:26 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.251] has joined #lisp 21:08:35 -!- gkeith_glaptop_ [gkeith@nat/google/x-dkxdmfbtbccfswyv] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:08:36 I wouldn't really be that partizan about any browser, except possibly a strong dislike of IE 21:08:42 madnificent: Actually, that's Konqueror. But I didn't realize the use case, use what works. :) 21:10:49 Guthur: i was surprised by microsofts latest efforts on the internet explorer front as well. it's fast and it works relatively well. surprisingly 21:11:14 redline6561: you're right... 21:11:35 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 21:11:47 pnq [~nick@AC818DB2.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 21:12:14 -!- ngz [~user@201.144.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:13:05 Xach, is there a reason cl-tokyo-cabinet isn't in quicklisp? 21:14:02 mickp [~mickp@216.243.156.42.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 21:15:44 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.137.79] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:16:06 antifuchs [~asfFreeno@guestnet.franz.com] has joined #lisp 21:16:39 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 21:17:44 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@54007E61.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has joined #lisp 21:17:44 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@54007E61.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has quit [Changing host] 21:17:44 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 21:21:20 sea4ever [~sea@64.28.141.5] has joined #lisp 21:21:35 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:22:58 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-092-128.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:23:14 hagish [~hagish@p54983C07.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:35 pmau5 [~patryk@141.212.182.121] has joined #lisp 21:27:30 -!- dabd [~dabd@a79-169-214-13.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:28:59 -!- tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:30:11 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:30:30 So when I do a tcpdump | grep 'aol' and then run start-gossip-bot (CLAIM, SBCL), I don't see any packets 21:31:00 -!- mickp [~mickp@216.243.156.42.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:31:20 :( 21:31:35 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@189.139.180.200] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:31:56 Oladon: tcpdump port 5190 21:32:05 you're grepping tcpdump output? 21:32:28 akovalenko: nothing 21:32:29 Oladon: also, tcpdump -vvv -x 21:32:42 Oladon: and GET RID OF GREP 21:32:48 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 21:33:00 ... there's no way I can look at all those packets... 21:33:11 Oladon: the point is to let tcpdump filter your data by port number *intsead* of grep 21:33:24 akovalenko: Yeah, except that apparently it's not working... 21:33:49 also, -i your-network-interface 21:33:52 Yep 21:34:12 When I said "tcpdump | grep" I really meant "tcpdump -nvi eth0 | grep" 21:34:23 still nothing, with -vvv 21:34:34 tcpdump sends output to stderr, no? (: 21:34:36 and without grep? and with port? 21:34:45 akovalenko: Yes 21:35:02 tcpdump -vvvi eth0 port 5190 <-- the exact command 21:35:37 When I run the Net::OSCAR bot in Perl, I see lots of packets. 21:35:59 Oladon: didn't you forget to set the TOC host and port this time? 21:36:14 akovalenko: No? 21:36:29 maybe it tries port 9898 21:36:53 I'll listen there 21:37:10 ahh, looks like it does 21:37:13 and if you get (yet another different) error message... 21:37:16 let's see if I can find another reference to the port 21:37:27 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-113-199.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:37:45 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-128-176.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:51 Alright, now I'm seeing 7 packets 21:38:36 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-190-136.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:38:44 Guthur: I don't remember. 21:38:54 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:40:05 mpelican [~mickp@216.243.156.42.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 21:40:11 gkeith_glaptop_ [gkeith@nat/google/x-xzwpfngycewvjrda] has joined #lisp 21:40:51 cesarbp [~cbolano@189.139.180.200] has joined #lisp 21:41:11 none of them are being sent to the same place as when I run the Perl bot\ 21:42:37 I take that back, they're just showing as going to the domain instead of the IP 21:43:28 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:44:42 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-092-128.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 21:45:25 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@189.139.180.200] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:46:00 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:46:35 but they're completely different 21:46:49 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:48:19 -!- ch077179 [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:49:15 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-72-43-20-246.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:50:04 -!- TDT [~user@dhcpw81ffff75.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:50:51 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:52:26 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:36 -!- H4ns [41173d62@gateway/web/freenode/ip.65.23.61.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:57:48 -!- oconnore [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:58:08 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:58:44 -!- cyrillos__ [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:58:49 -!- Shaftoe_ [~memet@88.242.49.89] has quit [Quit: Shaftoe_] 21:59:31 Fare [~Fare@74.125.59.116] has joined #lisp 21:59:33 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp3741.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 22:03:12 -!- pnq [~nick@AC818DB2.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:03:37 Guthur: Guthur i added it 22:04:02 Xach, cool, cheers 22:05:53 -!- SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:06:30 -!- HG`` [~HG@p5DC055EE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: HG``] 22:06:31 Guthur: i think the last time i checked it out, it required a complicated set of interweaving dependencies. this time it only took two new systems. and i got the foreign lib easily too. 22:06:33 -!- hagish [~hagish@p54983C07.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:07:40 -!- dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:08:13 to be honest I haven't actually used it in anger 22:08:29 but tokyo-cabinet is quite highly rated 22:09:13 KyotoCabinet looks fine too, but changed licensing 22:09:34 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 22:10:42 the fact it's a C++ API is what turns me off the most about it 22:10:56 but I haven't really looked to deep 22:10:57 too* 22:11:03 -!- dlowe [dlowe@nat/google/x-fqzidwlfgzkmovnj] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:11:41 looks like there is a C interface as well thouhg 22:12:15 -!- cheezus [~Adium@174-137-229-117.ip.tor.radiant.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:12:34 Guthur: I'm thinking mainly of using the KyotoTyrant server 22:12:51 to have clean break to avoid licensing issues 22:13:11 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-092-128.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:13:20 -!- yuvipanda [~yuvipanda@117.193.78.37] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:13:39 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-178-24.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:13:44 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-178-24.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:13:59 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 22:17:34 -!- austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:19:44 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-128-140.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:05 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-128-176.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:20:05 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 22:20:38 -!- mpelican [~mickp@216.243.156.42.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 22:20:39 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:22:08 ch077179 [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has joined #lisp 22:22:22 hmm, there's a *debug-flap* I can use to see what it's sending, it seems 22:22:34 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-93-129-223.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:23:27 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@212.183.128.42] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:24:42 cheezus [~Adium@ottawa-hs-64-26-155-215.s-ip.magma.ca] has joined #lisp 22:25:14 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-123-164.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:51 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-128-140.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:25:51 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 22:28:10 I'm running into a problem with usings keywords. the function is (defun foo (bar &key (baz #'qux)) (funcall qux)). To call foo i do (foo 1 :baz #'quux) but if i trace quux it never gets called. what am i doing wrong that i cannot pass quuz as a keyword argument? 22:28:57 qux is an undefined variable. 22:29:03 pmau5: let baz default to 'quux, not to #'quux 22:29:04 The parameter is named baz. 22:29:55 -!- sea4ever [~sea@64.28.141.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:30:33 pmau5: also, if you use SBCL, (trace qux :encapsulate nil) 22:30:48 There's no function qux, it's named quux. 22:30:56 zmv [~daniel@c95339f3.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 22:31:15 pjb: i meant funcall baz 22:31:26 pmau5: then try again with (funcall baz). 22:31:38 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.39] has joined #lisp 22:31:42 pmau5: hard to help you debug code when you don't paste it right. 22:32:06 tried to come up with it on the spot 22:32:14 defun foo (bar &key (baz #'qux)) (funcall baz)) 22:32:23 -!- cheezus [~Adium@ottawa-hs-64-26-155-215.s-ip.magma.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:32:26 i'm also using allegro CL 22:32:33 irrelevant. 22:32:44 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:33:33 akovalenko mentioned SBCL so i thought maybe it does 22:33:40 guess it doesn't though. thanks for the heads up 22:33:47 samebchase: You could have a look at: https://github.com/Hexstream/rotx/blob/master/rotx.lisp (compare with your version at http://paste.lisp.org/display/125096) 22:33:55 pmau5: try pass symbols instead of functions (symbol can be funcalled, too. TRACE can be implemented in such a way that it doesn't affect function objects) 22:35:44 pmau5: see how it's done: http://paste.lisp.org/display/125099 22:36:16 -!- am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:36:32 -!- Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:36:45 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:38:01 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-123-164.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 22:39:29 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 22:40:39 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.187.139] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:42:03 -!- alvis [~alvis@tx-71-2-123-220.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:42:32 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:55 -!- antifuchs [~asfFreeno@guestnet.franz.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:43:13 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-98-150.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:23 -!- dfox [~dfox@2001:470:9d8f:0:4261:86ff:fe8e:8446] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:46:29 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.251] has quit [Quit: Offline] 22:47:42 SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 22:47:43 -!- Fare [~Fare@74.125.59.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:48:11 H4ns [431741ca@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.23.65.202] has joined #lisp 22:49:01 -!- anvandare [~anvandare@dD5770EE9.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:51:30 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:51:54 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 22:53:54 sabalaba [~sabalaba_@c-98-250-107-145.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:40 DaDaDosPrompt [~DaDaDosPr@184.99.29.100] has joined #lisp 22:54:50 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:54:59 alvis [~alvis@tx-71-2-123-220.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:02 -!- rainyrhy|afk is now known as rainyrhy 22:59:53 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-123-164.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:05 wb, rainyrhy 23:01:19 hi 23:01:37 joast [~rick@76.178.187.139] has joined #lisp 23:03:10 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-25-142.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 23:03:10 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-25-142.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 23:03:10 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 23:03:43 anvandare [~anvandare@dD5770DE3.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 23:04:17 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 23:06:02 how goes? 23:09:00 Shaftoe_ [~memet@88.242.49.89] has joined #lisp 23:10:42 cl-libxml2 is kinda scary. anyone got any sane alternatives as an html parser? 23:11:05 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:11:16 Shaftoe_: what scares you about it? did you look at cxml? 23:11:25 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:11:40 I'm getting all sorts of scope issues, and the documentation is dismal 23:11:50 samples, as written on the page simply do not work 23:11:56 I'll try cxml 23:12:51 -!- rainyrhy is now known as rainyrhy|afk 23:12:59 -!- zmv [~daniel@c95339f3.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:13:19 ah. cxml homepage recommends closure-html 23:13:20 Shaftoe_: strange, i've just started with cl-libxml2 and so far, it worked fine (except namespaces + xpath, which are a bit scary) 23:13:22 I'll try that instead 23:14:14 Shaftoe_: cxml is tres cool, but i'm not sure how capable its xpath implementation actually is. 23:14:19 H4ns: indeed. I'm getting really weird issues with the namespaces, and it's made me lose faith in the library (i.e. can't tell if somethings actally broken, or if I'm doing it wrong) 23:14:24 -!- rainyrhy|afk is now known as rainyrhy 23:14:42 so long as I can walk nodes, modify them, and serialize back to string, I'll be fine. 23:17:45 -!- gkeith_glaptop_ [gkeith@nat/google/x-xzwpfngycewvjrda] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:18:40 zmv [~daniel@c95339f3.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 23:19:26 stella [~stella@bas2-montreal42-3096488197.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:19:52 -!- stella is now known as Guest77797 23:21:28 hello 23:21:46 I am totally new to lisp and really need help 23:21:51 -!- SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:22:36 Guest77797: ask specific questions. 23:22:42 Guest77797: what in particular? 23:23:18 SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 23:23:18 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl6-180-6.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:23:38 ok I'm trying to use if to define a proc that returns the smaller of two numbers 23:24:14 Guest77797: what do you have so far? 23:24:22 usinG (x y) but it will only return the smaller number if it is x 23:24:27 if y is smaller it will return nil 23:24:36 but i want it return y if it is smaller 23:24:59 -!- manuel_ [~manuel_@pD9FDDF62.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: manuel_] 23:25:14 Guest77797: (defun min (a b) (if (< a b) a b)) 23:26:20 Guest77797: paste the code to paste.lisp.org 23:26:24 peterhil`: that's hardly sporting. 23:26:38 Sorry, couldn't resist... 23:26:50 -!- H4ns [431741ca@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.23.65.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:26:56 Well, resist. Guest77797 won't be a valuable contributor without learning any Lisp. 23:26:56 its that simple? 23:27:15 Guest77797: was that like what you had? 23:27:23 yes it is. but you should do as Xach says and paste it. 23:27:32 you'll learn more by understanding what you weren't supposed to do 23:27:35 H4ns [43174196@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.23.65.150] has joined #lisp 23:27:44 (it = what you had) 23:27:49 yes except i didnt have b right beside a. I had it after another parenthesis and it wasnt working 23:27:54 peterhil: if you're so keen to write people's code for them, why don't you help me figure out how to update CLAIM for the new protocol ;) 23:28:12 Guest77797: you got the syntax of IF wrong. 23:28:49 Xach and Shaftoe: You're right. It doesn't help to learn to get the right answers, but to see what went wrong. 23:29:18 Oladon: What is CLAIM? 23:29:19 ok what does syntax mean 23:29:41 peterhil`: the CL AOL Instant Messenger module 23:29:56 syntax means the way you use the language. kinda like grammar but for programming. 23:29:57 Guest77797: syntax is the way in which you put something together 23:30:00 Guest77797: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syntax_(programming_languages) 23:30:40 ok 23:31:08 one thing i for the life of me cannot understand is how to use do 23:31:16 -!- rainyrhy is now known as rainyrhy|afk 23:31:20 -!- dlowe_lt [dlowe@nat/google/x-wvdltyfivresrzkp] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:31:23 Oladon: do you know if xmpp.oscar.aol.com is alive? then you may have better luck with CL-XMPP 23:31:30 I have read common lisp and practical lisp intro books 23:31:34 but its not clicking 23:31:36 Oladon: What does CLAIM use for GUI? 23:31:42 peterhil`: no GUI 23:31:46 Guest77797: I don't think many people use DO 23:31:47 Ah ok 23:31:52 heh 23:31:59 akovalenko: I did research that, but it seems that they discontinued that service 23:32:10 Guest77797: it's good to know how to use it, eventually, but I wouldn't stop learning on a DO roadblock... 23:32:32 Guest77797: yeah, Xach is perhaps right. do is its own language... 23:32:39 H4ns_ [43174196@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.23.65.150] has joined #lisp 23:32:45 -!- H4ns [43174196@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.23.65.150] has quit [Disconnected by services] 23:32:48 -!- H4ns_ is now known as H4ns 23:33:02 i need to use do to define i guess a procedure to return the smallest numbers in a list 23:33:12 using the min you just showed me 23:33:16 if that makes any sense 23:33:24 dlowe_lt [~dlowe@50-77-31-237-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:33:59 -!- marsell [~marsell@120.22.180.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:34:41 so far i have this. (defun minimum (lst) 23:34:49 calculate the minimum of a list, then return it" (do 23:34:55 Guest77797: try using paste.lisp.org 23:35:13 H4ns: you were right: chtml is creamy =) 23:35:23 antifuchs [~asfFreeno@70-36-234-231.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:25 Shaftoe_: enjoy! 23:36:07 how does that work 23:37:33 -!- dlowe_lt [~dlowe@50-77-31-237-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:37:48 dlowe_lt [dlowe@nat/google/x-lxhypthpbnlvdrrl] has joined #lisp 23:38:19 Guest77797: go to paste.lisp.org, paste your code, give us the URL 23:40:01 sigh. my brain is about to blow up. I think it's almost bed time 23:40:13 Is it making noises? 23:40:31 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 23:41:09 http://paste.lisp.org/display/125101 23:41:18 cheezus [~Adium@76-10-168-148.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:41:38 yes, in the form of groaning sounds emanating from the aperture below its enclosure 23:41:52 It's a sure sign that bed approaches. 23:42:16 *Oladon* ponders 23:42:19 My bed never does that 23:42:30 then again, it lacks legs. 23:42:32 neither does mine. I was talking about my brain 23:43:02 Guest77797: if you were to read your function in english, what do you think it would be saying? 23:43:16 -!- frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:43:26 -!- mogs [~mogs@119.64.49.14] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:43:39 not as a description of what you want, but as a description of what each word/letter you typed is meant to do 23:43:42 No, I got that part. Your brain making noise is a sure sign that bed approaches. (And is Guest77797 wanting a recursive solution? Or is iteration required? I guess iteration since he's saying he wants do.) 23:44:40 I dont know. debugging is saying unbound variable 23:44:48 it's iteration 23:45:10 Guest77797, Shaftoe_ is asking you to say what your program is supposed to do, in your own words, in English. 23:45:17 -!- Oladon [~Oladon@np34.co.returnpath.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:45:18 This will help identify logical problems. 23:45:31 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:45:39 If it doesn't make sense in English, chances are it doesn't make sense. 23:46:15 oh its supposed to look at the numbers in a list and return the smallest one 23:46:38 Too high level. Try to get closer to what the code says, but say it in English. 23:46:52 "We define a function, foo, that takes argument bar. It then..." 23:47:09 what is foo 23:47:22 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:47:26 Metasyntactic variable. 23:47:37 In this case, "minimum". 23:47:52 "We define a function, minimum, that takes argument lst. It then..." 23:48:18 evaluates the list? 23:48:32 you're looking for something way more basic than that: 23:48:33 Not really a good situation for guessing. 23:48:37 jobs died. this is sad. 23:48:39 cesarbp [~cbolano@189.139.180.200] has joined #lisp 23:48:51 H4ns: seriously? 23:48:51 Hm, did he? 23:49:06 apple.com 23:49:09 reads the list 23:49:22 Oh, Hell. I guess things were worse than the public knew. 23:49:33 Guest77797: something like "I want to look at each element, and compare with another element and depending on that comparison do this" is the kind of sentence we're expecting here 23:49:52 boom. 23:49:53 H4ns: That is sad. 23:49:57 indeed. 23:50:26 alright 23:50:52 *H4ns* suggests to look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nx7v815bYUw in memoriam 23:51:03 He was young. Didn't realize. 23:51:17 once you have a sentence like that, it's surprisingly easy to make a lisp statement out of it. 23:51:36 I don't understand do either, but it actually seems exactly what I need to make a Python/NumPy style iterator. :-) 23:51:38 so you want to look at each element 23:51:53 what sort of statement does that 23:52:37 the chtml documentation is kinda weak too, sadly =\ 23:53:26 Shaftoe_: chtml is only a SAX-style source for cxml. The rest is regular cxml stuff. 23:53:40 Refer to cxml-stp, platypus, etc. 23:54:01 (plexippus, actually? :) 23:54:02 pkhuong: yah. just the documentation pages make me have to dig through source. refer to methods as functions etc. 23:54:11 *H4ns* googles patypus (?) 23:55:01 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:55:01 Shaftoe_: I don't understand what difference it can make whether a function is generic or not... 23:55:05 dang. roosters are crowing... 23:55:20 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba_@c-98-250-107-145.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:55:30 i dont understand... anything 23:55:33 pkhuong: it was just an example. the documentation is a-typical 23:55:50 I'm having to double take everything I read. 23:56:09 frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 23:56:11 in any case, maybe I'm just really tired. 23:56:17 Guest77797: In this case, you might want to look into REDUCE 23:56:34 I shall recluse myself without further ado 23:56:43 good night folks 23:57:02 -!- Shaftoe_ [~memet@88.242.49.89] has quit [Quit: Shaftoe_] 23:57:34 reduce what exactly 23:57:51 Guest77797: why are you looking into lisp? is this a course assignment? 23:57:55 re 23:58:07 But alas, time to go to the office. 23:58:23 Bike, wouldn't he understand more if he did something like "if this is the smallest I've seen so far, save it" through the list? 23:58:41 I guess it's not lisp though. 23:58:44 I suppose. Dolist instead of Do, then? 23:59:02 yes its an assignment in lisp 23:59:08 im using allegro cl 23:59:21 and we're assigned to functions to use and define 23:59:24 Guest77797: did you receive any course material? have you actually read and understood it? 23:59:43 Guest77797, write out your plan in English. You have a list. How would you find the lowest number in it if you didn't have a computer? 23:59:44 i feel like i understand the basics but trying to put it together in code, im lost