00:00:01 -!- klutometis [klutometis@pdpc/supporter/professional/klutometis] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:00:11 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A47B0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:00:27 -!- PyIRC is now known as Cam 00:00:35 -!- Cam [~i@unaffiliated/cam/bot/pyirc] has quit [Changing host] 00:00:35 Cam [~i@trivialand/staff/Cam] has joined #lisp 00:04:21 klutometis [klutometis@pdpc/supporter/professional/klutometis] has joined #lisp 00:09:41 Does anyone here use iolib? Why does #'accept-connection list :wait as a valid key option (and it is called in the first example in the tutorial), but is not in the lambda list. Did someone make a commit without running any tests, or what? 00:13:13 oconnore: "is not in the lambda list" ? 00:13:19 what do you mean ? 00:13:37 I mean it is not a valid keyword argument 00:13:54 the lambda list is (socket &key external-format element-type) 00:14:02 -!- Yamazaki1kun is now known as Yamazaki-kun 00:14:03 there is no wait option 00:14:10 -!- naiv [~quassel@AAnnecy-651-1-106-167.w82-122.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:14:46 wow, furthermore, accept-connection just goes into an infinite loop, not doing anything useful... 00:14:50 <|3b|> has one here, no idea how old my iolib is though 00:15:00 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483D479.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:15:02 there is in HEAD, and I'm pretty sure that the last release has it too 00:15:03 knoppix [~knoppix@ppp-70-246-55-229.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:12 -!- stepnem_ is now known as stepnem 00:15:55 fe[nl]ix: is the quicklisp version grossly out of date? 00:16:11 <|3b|> hmm, 2010-10... guess i should update iolib on this machine one of these days :/ 00:16:32 oconnore: see https://github.com/sionescu/iolib/blob/master/src/sockets/socket-methods.lisp#L279 00:17:55 Why am I loading this version? http://gitorious.org/iolib/iolib/blobs/master/src/sockets/trivial-sockets.lisp#line85 00:18:05 why does that even exist? :P 00:18:27 <|3b|> that's for compatibility with another lib, isn't it? 00:19:01 sellout- [~Adium@173-8-242-217-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:02 |3b|: infinite loops for compatibility reasons? 00:19:41 tsuru`` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:20:11 lol 00:20:15 <|3b|> looks more like bitrot breaking compatibility 00:21:25 oops, my bad 00:21:41 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.234.117] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 00:21:41 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:23:27 Bike1 [~Glossina@69.166.35.237] has joined #lisp 00:23:59 -!- tsuru`` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:24:18 -!- srolls [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:24:22 replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 00:25:19 oconnore: https://gitorious.org/iolib/iolib/commit/94d31c7ac307252e3a189e365a5b07f795d43f24 00:25:26 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.238] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:25:56 oops, I misspelled your nick 00:26:08 time for sleep 00:26:13 fe[nl]ix: ah, that makes much more sense 00:26:15 thank you 00:26:41 -!- marsell [~marsell@120.20.67.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:31:26 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:31:33 Is there any livecoding environment (think demoscene) for CL? 00:33:02 dwim: there is some for Scheme, but I don't recall one built on CL. Doable 00:33:53 -!- Bike1 [~Glossina@69.166.35.237] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:34:11 dwim: argh, you could have chosen another nick... :) 00:34:30 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has joined #lisp 00:34:34 topeak [~topeak@123.114.126.91] has joined #lisp 00:34:54 p_l|backup: Yep, I tried Fluxus on Scheme, I was looking for something similar. 00:35:02 *attila_lendvai* has an alarm on 'dwim' as he's one of the guys running dwim.hu 00:35:06 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 00:35:38 attila_lendvai: on 'dwim' alone or anything that includes 'dwim'? 00:35:59 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@72.19.54.151] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:36:08 dwim: I think it's a mere substring search (pidgin) 00:36:11 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Client Quit] 00:36:16 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 00:36:39 -!- dwim is now known as comment-dwim 00:36:44 dwim: I'm not asking to rename yourself... just pondered out loud 00:36:58 Does the alarm work now? :) 00:37:48 comment-dwim: the alarm comes when someone talks to you. but again, if this is your nick then don't rename it only for me... that's life. 00:38:23 :) 00:38:52 sogeking99 [~sogeking9@5ac58a4e.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 00:38:59 hey all 00:39:40 *comment-dwim* looking at the .hu site. 00:39:46 -!- aleron [~Brad@cpe-098-025-205-230.sc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:39:47 Hi, sogeking99. :) 00:40:47 comment-dwim: nothing really there besides the install guide and the user interface demo 00:41:10 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:43:19 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 00:50:30 tali713 [~user@c-174-53-187-179.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:19 -!- oconnore [~Eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:55:25 Is there a reason you'd use 'cons' to add to a lisp rather than push? 00:56:51 -!- tali713 [~user@c-174-53-187-179.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:56:56 list not lisp, sorry 00:57:13 nicdev [~user@c-98-217-188-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:21 tali713 [~user@c-174-53-187-179.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:29 sogeking99: push modifies the list 01:00:30 sogeking99: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_push.htm 01:00:40 Look at "Notes" at the end of the document. 01:00:56 -!- sellout- [~Adium@173-8-242-217-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:00:58 *comment-dwim* to bed. 01:01:15 -!- comment-dwim [~dwim@0.Red-79-156-38.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: comment-dwim] 01:01:23 ok thanks 01:02:39 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:03:26 frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 01:05:45 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.156.82] has quit [Quit: rme] 01:06:24 -!- samebchase [~samuel@pi.nipl.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:06:29 samebchase [~samuel@pi.nipl.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:30 -!- blacktooth [~blacktoot@pi.nipl.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:06:48 blacktooth [~blacktoot@pi.nipl.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:11 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 01:09:46 does quicklisp work for anyone on android ccl? 01:11:22 (implying that it doesn't wok for me), well, i guess i'd just copy systems by hand instead 01:13:53 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-109-104.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:03 btw, is there any chance CCL will get modified to support armv6, not only v7-a? 01:15:11 -!- tali713 [~user@c-174-53-187-179.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:15:45 you can wave some hefty paychecks in front of clozure folks to maximise the chances 01:18:51 heh 01:19:07 better chances of changing it myself. 01:19:19 Still, it would be sweet to run CCL on Raspberry Pi 01:19:20 rme [~rme@50.43.156.82] has joined #lisp 01:20:01 i rooted my androido-phone just for ccl 01:23:56 now, if i can get commonqt running on it, that'd be sweet 01:24:50 'night 01:27:27 vervic [~vervic@091-141-046-049.dyn.orange.at] has joined #lisp 01:27:40 -!- vervic [~vervic@091-141-046-049.dyn.orange.at] has left #lisp 01:28:04 -!- dostoyevsky [sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:29:46 how is cdr ever useful? 01:30:02 always 01:30:12 what kind of questions is that? 01:30:19 s/questions/question/ 01:30:38 so it print the whole list other than the first element? 01:30:56 or does it actually remove the element? 01:31:03 it doesn't print anything 01:31:09 do you know what a linked list is? 01:31:40 con cells? 01:32:00 -!- replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 259 seconds] 01:32:11 cons cells is another name for it, but it's a fundamental data structure 01:33:06 yeah 01:33:07 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linked_list in case you don't 01:33:47 ok thanks, reading land of lisp, its on lists now, but seems to be moving a bit fast for me 01:34:51 replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 01:35:20 so, without CDR you wouldn't be able to get any subsequent elements of a list 01:35:46 (only the first one) 01:36:28 so does it remove the first element yeah? 01:36:33 no 01:37:33 the first element stays there, you just look at the second element (and the elements linked by it) 01:37:46 superflit_ [~superflit@174-16-44-117.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:50 Touretzky explains lisp lists in detail. See http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/book.pdf (chapter 2 in particular). 01:38:12 ok thanks i'll look at that 01:38:19 knowing what a pointer is helpful 01:38:45 yeah i was about to say it seems like a pointer in C 01:39:11 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-33-182-89.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:39:12 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 01:39:40 tali713 [~user@c-174-53-187-179.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:33 rme: should i be able to rebuild lisp-kernel for andoird on a linux host? 01:41:39 -!- Intensity [qsW5GZMoE6@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:41:39 -!- easyE [LRJiZiLYWi@panix2.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:42:55 xharkonnen [~charles@host86-141-143-76.range86-141.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 01:43:56 I think you're supposed to use the NDK cross compiler to build it, so yes. (But I never worked on android anything myself, and don't have an android device.) 01:44:10 yes, i'm using NDK 01:44:35 oh well, i don't imagine that rubuilding will allow quicklisp to run anyway 01:45:47 It's been a while since gb worked on the android port, so who knows what state it's in. You could send mail to openmcl-devel about it. 01:46:12 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 01:46:21 i certainly will if i'll be able to diagnose it further 01:46:38 I remember seeing mail from a user who had a debian chroot on an android device who was running ccl successfully. But I don't really know how that works. 01:48:08 that seems like too much hassle 01:49:21 it's cool to be able to do (load "http://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp"), especially on android 01:50:56 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.136.127] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:51:40 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.136.127] has joined #lisp 01:51:40 -!- concave [~concave@c-24-118-48-38.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:52:18 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:52:31 vervic [~vervic@091-141-046-049.dyn.orange.at] has joined #lisp 01:52:43 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@ip21-159.200.109.crimea.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:53:56 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 01:53:56 grouzen [~grouzen@ip21-159.200.109.crimea.com] has joined #lisp 01:54:05 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba_@c-98-250-107-145.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:54:08 funny, now it worked 01:54:11 gensym` [~user@95.156.194.105] has joined #lisp 01:54:53 Please hang up and try your compile again. 01:54:55 -!- gensym [~user@95.156.194.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:55:18 It is a phone os, after all. 01:55:26 topo__ [~topo@f053042193.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 01:56:23 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:56:27 worked as in "got installed", but (ql:quickload "drakma") => [1] Illegal instruction ./ccl 01:56:29 oh well 01:57:18 bloody arm with its zoo of instruction sets 01:57:41 -!- topo [~topo@f053037125.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:59:23 -!- lurker-x [~androirc@32.144.49.254] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:59:27 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:59:34 lurker-x [~androirc@32.144.49.254] has joined #lisp 02:00:00 -!- lurker-x [~androirc@32.144.49.254] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:00:14 lurker-x [~androirc@32.144.49.254] has joined #lisp 02:00:17 Intensity [NjU8nFnxRK@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 02:01:10 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: 1741] 02:01:25 -!- SegFault3X [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:01:25 -!- SegFault2X [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:01:48 gtoast [~cdimara@99-100-70-120.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:36 -!- sogeking99 [~sogeking9@5ac58a4e.bb.sky.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:05:03 -!- shachaf [~shachaf@204.109.63.130] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:05:11 -!- tali713 [~user@c-174-53-187-179.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:05:51 -!- vervic [~vervic@091-141-046-049.dyn.orange.at] has left #lisp 02:06:01 -!- lurker-x [~androirc@32.144.49.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:06:15 lurker-x [~androirc@c-75-72-88-197.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:07:08 hi, what's the best way to see if a list contains no NILs? e.g., '(1 2 "foo") => t '(1 nil "foo") => nil 02:07:29 (notany #'null list) 02:07:34 thanks 02:08:41 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 02:10:03 paul0 [~paul0@200.146.126.207.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 02:10:12 tali713 [~user@c-174-53-187-179.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:02 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:14:44 gko [~gko@27.242.10.253] has joined #lisp 02:15:35 -!- lurker-x [~androirc@c-75-72-88-197.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:17:03 vervic [~vervic@091-141-046-049.dyn.orange.at] has joined #lisp 02:17:22 frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-97-250.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:55 -!- kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 02:18:37 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:18:40 -!- topeak [~topeak@123.114.126.91] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:18:48 -!- frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-97-250.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:19:13 sellout- [~Adium@97-122-111-54.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:22 -!- gko [~gko@27.242.10.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:20:11 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@static-50-43-53-7.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:11 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@static-50-43-53-7.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Changing host] 02:20:11 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 02:21:21 DaDaDosPrompt [~DaDaDosPr@184.99.29.100] has joined #lisp 02:21:34 WTF Emacs why can you not dabbrev-expand-completion on my mind's eye! 02:21:48 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 02:22:07 frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-97-250.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:22:16 your EEG electrode must have slipped 02:22:30 Vivitron [~user@pool-108-7-56-243.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:17 :) maybe I should reverse the flow on my headphones 02:24:55 kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:09 they can act as a microphone, albeit a bad one 02:27:36 sabalaba [~sabalaba_@c-98-250-107-145.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:15 ISF [~ivan@201.82.136.131] has joined #lisp 02:29:15 -!- tali713 [~user@c-174-53-187-179.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:29:36 -!- knoppix [~knoppix@ppp-70-246-55-229.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:29:59 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:30:38 lisp tips, lisp tips... no, i won't make "slime tips" (now) 02:31:30 -!- sellout- [~Adium@97-122-111-54.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:32:53 :) 02:33:51 gko [~gko@27.242.10.253] has joined #lisp 02:34:11 though i guess when Xach runs out of lisp tips he'll move on to slime tips and steal all my fame 02:34:23 -!- frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-97-250.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:36:29 -!- paul0 [~paul0@200.146.126.207.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: paul0] 02:39:27 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:40:28 tali713 [~user@c-174-53-187-179.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:36 Maybe. 02:43:50 but (format nil "~v,'0B" 16 42) is still pretty cool and I'm glad to have it. 02:44:22 that's a pretty tame format string 02:45:40 Don't be jealous, I've squirreled away some your hairy format-controls too. 02:49:21 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.136.131] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 02:49:51 -!- tali713 [~user@c-174-53-187-179.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:51:11 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-140-90.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:20 -!- vervic [~vervic@091-141-046-049.dyn.orange.at] has left #lisp 02:51:30 pnathan [~user@64.126.142.148] has joined #lisp 02:53:16 Kully [~Kully@pool-71-185-171-145.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:35 Hey guys i'm currently learning lisp and i'm wondering if anyone could share some quick tips with me 02:53:57 Kully: http://lisptips.tumblr.com/ 02:54:20 this is clearly staged 02:54:36 Cool Thank you! 02:55:22 although it's new, you'd have to wait for more tips 02:55:39 yea i see there are only a few 02:55:55 but its nbd i'm very new to the language so im still getting used to the emacs 02:58:27 The Emacs. 02:58:29 :) 02:58:39 He has a doctor mode. 02:58:57 "he"? 02:59:08 Sure, why not? 02:59:54 yup he 02:59:55 because why not she? 03:00:13 and i was going to say the development console but i desided to swap terms 03:00:30 I don't know. Emacs doesn't feel feminine to me. 03:00:35 also is there a command i can use to stop a task if it gets caught in an endless recusion 03:00:40 Control C. 03:00:46 thnx 03:00:46 Repeat as needed. 03:00:53 but it's not animate at all 03:01:00 yeah i get that alot xD 03:01:18 If things get really crazy, on Linux/OSX you can kick off a terminal and do ps -Af | grep EMACS 03:01:25 er, grep emacs 03:01:33 Then kill -KILL emacs. 03:01:40 (if emacs is the problem) 03:02:17 @stassats: your emacs hasn't achieved animation at all? :( 03:02:23 yeah that's what i've been doing 03:02:44 i just figured out i have to hit C-cc 03:03:01 pnathan: nope, it's totally soulless 03:05:03 -!- Intensity [NjU8nFnxRK@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Quit: Quit] 03:05:05 cond statements are (cond(the condition) if false (t all true ) 03:05:07 ? right 03:05:47 that's some strange notation 03:06:19 ( cond (expr (thing-to-do-if-expr-is-true)) (expr2....) (t (do-default))) 03:06:42 http://gigamonkeys.com/book/macros-standard-control-constructs.html#cond 03:06:45 (cond (test-form form*)*) 03:07:13 good page ^ 03:07:33 thank you much. my book is not very er understanding to the newcomer 03:08:00 http://lispdoc.com/ <-- search engine on lisp documentation 03:08:37 nice score 03:19:21 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:19:33 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-gddxrianbaclykdo] has joined #lisp 03:21:13 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba_@c-98-250-107-145.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:22:03 duomo [~duomo@cpe-69-204-169-245.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:22:23 -!- xharkonnen [~charles@host86-141-143-76.range86-141.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:22:47 Thanks! 03:22:58 -!- Kully [~Kully@pool-71-185-171-145.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: This night methinks is but the daylight sick. -- William Shakespeare, The Merchant of 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scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:27:05 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:29:20 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 04:32:08 -!- Iceland_jack [~baldur@earth.sudo.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:32:27 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-jdzzzxvdokzngjfu] has joined #lisp 04:32:39 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@static-50-43-53-7.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 04:32:39 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@static-50-43-53-7.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Changing host] 04:32:39 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 04:32:57 -!- frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-97-250.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:33:11 Iceland_jack [~baldur@earth.sudo.is] has joined #lisp 04:36:07 frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-97-250.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:46 Is there a pull-serialiser available for CXML? 04:38:07 In other words, I want to generate a stream that I can read from which will serialise the XML as I read. 04:42:06 F7 [~front@118.100.191.94] has joined #lisp 04:43:31 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@220.227.122.149] has joined #lisp 04:43:31 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@220.227.122.149] has quit [Changing host] 04:43:31 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 04:45:58 FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 04:47:06 -!- frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-97-250.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:52:12 MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-23-195.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 04:52:15 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:08:50 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:09:14 gensym`` [~user@dslc-082-082-127-132.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 05:11:10 HG` [~HG@p5DC05EB3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:11:55 : ] 05:12:31 -!- topo__ is now known as topobot 05:13:37 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC05EB3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:13:45 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:15:11 is there parent object in common lisp? 05:15:24 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:17:09 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 05:17:40 -!- pinterface [~pinterfac@173-20-55-85.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:18:18 -!- StrmSrfr [~user@208.72.159.205] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:18:25 StrmSrfr [~user@208.72.159.205] has joined #lisp 05:19:30 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 05:21:34 pinterface [~pinterfac@173-20-55-85.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 05:21:49 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 05:23:06 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:23:22 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba_@c-98-250-107-145.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:23:45 tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:24:52 whartung_ [~will@adsl-69-231-41-111.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:15 topeak [~topeak@123.114.126.91] has joined #lisp 05:25:22 anyone know if an init-form in a defstruct can refer to other member of the struct, and how that would work? 05:26:55 this basically fails: 05:26:56 (defstruct x a (b (+ a 1))) 05:27:11 (make-x :a 2) 05:27:20 MAKE-X: variable A has no value 05:27:23 :/ 05:29:37 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.156.82] has quit [Quit: rme] 05:30:19 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 05:31:14 <_death> whartung: you can use &aux.. (defstruct (x (:constructor make-x (&key a &aux (b (+ a 1))))) a b) 05:32:20 -!- pinterface [~pinterfac@173-20-55-85.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:33:05 pinterface [~pinterfac@173-20-55-85.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 05:33:26 heh -- well, that's certainly not intuitive :) 05:33:53 <_death> whartung: well I'd consider doing (defstruct (x (:constructor %make-x)) a b) .. then write my own make-x 05:34:11 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@103.246.106.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:34:27 -!- _death is now known as adeht 05:34:32 yea...I just stumbled upon a thread that talks about that. 05:34:42 that's probably a bit clearer 05:35:27 alkoma [~alkoma@c-98-207-166-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:36:08 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:37:20 Just use DEFCLASS. THat has all the flexibility you need 05:40:58 yea, that's for another night. This seems to be working out for me for the moment. 05:42:15 -!- nicdev [~user@c-98-217-188-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:44:18 rme [~rme@50.43.156.82] has joined #lisp 05:45:02 speaking of looping constructs... 05:45:23 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:45:45 good morning 05:46:01 it seem that for a looping function that calls another function, there's no easy way to break out of the loop from that called function without wrapping the entire thing in a block. 05:46:12 vs a looping construct that is a macro 05:46:15 morning mvilleneuve 05:47:11 blocks would only work if the inner function's body is lexically contained in the outer function's 05:48:52 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-140-90.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 05:49:00 yea that's likely what I'm running in to. 05:49:05 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:50:17 whartung: if you need a construct for indefinite scope (but dynamic extent!) then look at catch/throw 05:51:20 then again, many times there's an easier way doing things 05:51:21 I had a simple map-over function to iterate across an internal data structure and I wanted to easily break out of it, but found I had to wrap it in a block. 05:52:38 (return-from map-over whatever)? 05:52:54 hmm... 05:52:56 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:53:30 kpavn [A@nat/ibm/x-dqnplslcgjokunsc] has joined #lisp 05:54:15 -!- alkoma [~alkoma@c-98-207-166-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 05:54:48 whartung: a block would be ok.. you can hide it in a do-over macro 05:55:34 (defmacro do-over ((var structure-form) &body forms) `(block nil (map-over (lambda (,var) ,@forms) ,structure-form))) 05:55:59 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@static-50-43-53-7.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 05:55:59 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@static-50-43-53-7.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Changing host] 05:55:59 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 05:57:15 the return-from didn't seem to work. 05:57:21 yea, that's an idea adeht 06:00:14 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.136.127] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:00:28 -!- hugod [~hugod@70.24.176.163] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:00:45 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.136.127] has joined #lisp 06:02:28 ok thanx all, the cat's about to eat me...so... 06:07:22 yea, that worked a treat adeht thx 06:07:26 hugod [~hugod@70.24.176.40] has joined #lisp 06:15:35 jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-53.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:17:33 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.75.65] has joined #lisp 06:20:35 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 06:22:16 huangjs [~huangjs@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 06:33:22 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-166-135.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:39:55 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 06:41:22 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:41:57 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 06:42:21 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 06:42:56 mtd [~martin@chop.xades.com] has joined #lisp 06:45:06 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:49:23 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:49:56 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:50:08 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 06:50:18 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:51:14 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 06:54:31 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:55:18 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 07:00:11 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 07:00:37 -!- pjb is now known as Guest55735 07:00:48 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:01:01 -!- newcup [newcup@peruna.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:01:26 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:01:46 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 07:02:09 anddam [~anddam@151.70.8.46] has joined #lisp 07:02:52 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:03:19 hello 07:04:08 http://pastesite.com/26571 this is the string beautifier from Land of Lisp page 97-98 07:04:15 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-53.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:04:51 -!- Guest55735 is now known as pjb` 07:04:55 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 07:05:07 I don't get why is it passing (tweak-text rest nil lit) in the recursive call at line 9 07:05:51 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 07:05:57 I'd pass (tweak-text rest nil nil) because the lit should be the "literal" state in which no capitalization is done, the only char to trigger literal should be #\" 07:06:02 can anyone confirm that? 07:07:20 -!- Amyn1 [~abennama@cac94-2-87-91-21-215.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:10:07 anddam: your choice would be more explicit but the results would be the same 07:10:24 adeht: yes, I noticed results are the same 07:10:34 why more explicit? 07:10:39 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.75.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:10:56 anddam: what are the values of caps and lit when this call occurs? 07:10:58 you mean when we are capitalizing we're alread with a "nil" value in lit 07:11:11 I see 07:11:37 -!- _danb_ [~user@203.38.189.126] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:11:43 how do usually to say lit is nil on #lisp? 07:11:49 usually write* 07:11:59 lit is nil. 07:12:22 good 07:14:59 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:16:25 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 07:16:27 thanks 07:17:59 When this call occurs, both caps and lit are nil, so you could rewrite it as (tweak-text rest caps lit), which shows that's a recursive call that just process the rest. 07:18:20 -!- blumbri [~blumbri@c-67-181-176-186.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:18:33 -!- DaDaDosPrompt [~DaDaDosPr@184.99.29.100] has quit [Quit: DaDaDosPrompt] 07:20:23 insomnia1alt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 07:20:36 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:20:59 pjb: for line 9 caps would be true 07:23:22 -!- Guest69543 is now known as X-Scale 07:23:39 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:23:39 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 07:24:42 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.76.6] has joined #lisp 07:26:32 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-155-81.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:29:31 Yes, but the form quoted above comes from the line 10. 07:29:56 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:30:38 -!- oudeis_ [~oudeis@bzq-79-177-201-46.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:36:34 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:38:28 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Client Quit] 07:41:02 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:41:30 Fish123 [~Fish@110.77.164.226] has joined #lisp 07:41:35 -!- Fish123 [~Fish@110.77.164.226] has left #lisp 07:41:37 hi 07:41:57 pjb: hi, how are you ? 07:42:13 is it possible to route a function into a group of arguments from a function? 07:42:33 topobot: yes, using the LISP protocol. 07:43:17 This is all explained in http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3750938102931445233 07:43:18 what i need is very simple 07:43:23 look this function: 07:43:26 (gl:translate -2 10 0 ) 07:43:29 it has 3 arguments 07:43:42 (gl:translate (* 23 (sin *time*)) 10 0 ) 07:43:43 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-gddxrianbaclykdo] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:44:09 i would like this functions: (* 23 (sin *time)) can change into which argument is affecting 07:44:18 do you understand me ? 07:44:24 No. 07:44:36 (* 23 (sin *time)) is not a function. 07:44:38 i have this function: 07:44:39 : (gl:translate -2 10 0 ) 07:44:44 it has 3 arguments 07:44:46 THat is not a function either. 07:44:50 It's a function call. 07:44:54 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:45:04 i want to have a function that can change dinamically which argument its affecting 07:45:36 Function cannot affect their arguments. They get their parameters all evaluated as a copy, and they cannot affect the original argument. 07:45:52 for example i want this "* 23 (sin *time)" to be able to control sometimes the first argument of my translate function, or the second 07:46:04 or sometime the third 07:46:07 That doesn't mean anything. 07:46:41 imagine that translate has 3 slots 07:46:50 functions have no slot. 07:47:09 im telling you that imagina that 07:47:11 imagine 07:47:19 use your imagination 07:47:25 Well, we could go to #imaginary-lisp 07:47:44 topobot, the word 'slot' is not defined for 'function' in the lisp context 07:48:00 ok 07:48:13 i see 07:48:29 pjb, what's the correct term? Argument? Parameter? 07:48:31 So you want (gl:translate -2 10 0 ) to sometimes be (gl:translate 10 0 -2) or (gl:translate -2 0 10) or some other permutation instead. 07:48:41 Tasser: depends on what is meant? 07:48:42 yes 07:49:01 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 07:49:02 dmiles [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 07:49:13 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:49:13 pjb, (fun ) 07:49:25 been able to change dynamically 07:49:26 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:49:27 There you have a function call with arguments. 07:49:32 easyE [ukVodzlZMt@panix2.panix.com] has joined #lisp 07:49:39 between (gl:translate (* 23 (sin *time*)) 0 0 ) and (gl:translate 0 (* 23 (sin *time*)) 0 ) and (gl:translate 0 0 (* 23 (sin *time*)) ) 07:49:43 ) 07:49:49 topobot: (fun (if test 10 -2) 0 (if test -2 10)) 07:50:02 and (defun foobar ( ) ... ) ? 07:50:13 There you have a function with parameters. 07:50:32 oke 07:51:43 -!- akovalenko [~user@95.73.123.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:51:51 (foo argument another) <- this is called a form? 07:51:53 i would like that when my function : (* 23 (sin *time*)) is 0 then it changes 07:52:07 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:52:31 when (* 23 (sin *time*)) is 0 then it begins to control agrument y , then when is 0 again it begins to control argument z and when is 0 again it begins with x again 07:52:50 i hope is clear 07:53:03 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:53:11 topobot, (cond ... )? Simply some code logic? 07:53:37 Tasser: land of lisp? 07:53:47 Posterdati, huh? 07:53:52 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 07:53:55 Tasser: read a book :) 07:54:06 hey, in emacs, comment-region usually insert two semi-columns, how to customize it to insert three semi-columns by default? variable comment-add? 07:55:48 Posterdati, I'm on practical common lisp. Just to be sure about terminology 07:55:52 Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 07:55:55 -!- FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:56:12 I was told LoL is fun :-) 07:57:19 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:57:30 topobot: (* 23 (sin *time*)) is not a function. 07:57:41 topobot: (fun (if (zerop (* 23 (sin *time*))) 10 -2) 0 (if (zerop (* 23 (sin *time*))) -2 10)) 07:57:57 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 07:58:02 fun is the same as defun? 07:58:05 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 07:58:26 topobot: no, it's the name of your function. substitute it by gl:translate 07:59:00 Tasser: I'm a beginner too! Here people, more skilled than me, could suggest you a good book to start... Practical Common Lisp is a good book to start with 07:59:40 pjb, that cries out for a macro :-) 07:59:59 s/out// 08:00:03 No, that cries out for some thinking and programming. 08:00:24 pjb what does your code does? 08:00:42 Read it. 08:00:48 i dont see any routing mechanism there 08:01:18 topobot: for routing see the video above. 08:02:15 ok 08:02:33 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Client Quit] 08:03:40 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:03:49 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has joined #lisp 08:04:34 -!- cheezus [~Adium@75-144-26-36-sfba-ca.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:04:57 -!- deke [~deke@fl-71-54-184-132.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:05:55 cheezus [~Adium@75-144-26-36-sfba-ca.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 08:06:44 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 08:07:03 -!- syrinx_ 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[foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:41:05 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 08:41:05 -!- y3llow [~y3llow@111-240-167-172.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 08:41:08 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 08:41:08 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:41:08 gensym``` [~user@dslc-082-082-127-132.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:41:30 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@117.192.33.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:41:34 -!- prip is now known as Guest5436 08:41:39 y3llow [~y3llow@111-240-167-172.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 08:41:41 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.44.29] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:42:01 araujo [~araujo@190.73.44.29] has joined #lisp 08:42:02 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.44.29] has quit [Changing host] 08:42:02 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 08:42:02 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 08:42:07 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 08:42:07 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:42:31 ihyoyoung [raster@140.211.167.168] has joined #lisp 08:43:05 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:43:08 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 08:43:08 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:43:10 Krystof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 08:43:12 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 08:43:26 marsell [~marsell@120.18.128.232] has joined #lisp 08:44:08 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 08:44:08 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:44:45 araujo [~araujo@190.73.44.29] has joined #lisp 08:44:45 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.44.29] has quit [Changing host] 08:44:45 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 08:44:59 is there an operator that just returns its argument? 08:45:08 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 08:45:08 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:45:17 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:45:20 after (defparameter foo 'bar) I can do (not foo) 08:45:28 but I cannot do (foo) 08:45:43 I'd like to have it in parenthesis form 08:45:45 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 08:45:51 (identity foo) 08:46:08 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 08:46:08 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:46:25 I just tried (and foo) 08:46:30 thanks 08:47:08 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 08:47:08 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 08:48:08 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 08:48:08 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:48:29 nostoi [~nostoi@20.Red-81-36-253.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:49:08 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 08:49:08 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:49:32 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:49:43 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 08:50:17 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 08:53:02 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:32 EyesIsServer [~eyes@unaffiliated/eyesismine] has joined #lisp 08:54:39 -!- replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:56:29 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-rrosssoeagcbzqdf] has joined #lisp 08:58:25 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@189.247.114.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:00:29 good day everyone 09:01:25 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:01:44 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:02:07 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:02:56 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 09:03:25 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:05:24 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:07:23 xan_ [~xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 09:08:22 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:08:42 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:09:07 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-244-30.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 09:09:13 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 09:10:03 -!- rme [rme@696C65D6.F26E1912.699BA7A6.IP] has quit [Quit: rme] 09:10:03 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.156.82] has quit [Quit: rme] 09:11:40 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:11:41 -!- phadthai_ is now known as phadthai 09:12:06 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 09:14:00 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@20.Red-81-36-253.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 09:16:58 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:18:47 francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has joined #lisp 09:19:38 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 09:20:28 if one is not sure of the type of the item input is it always safe ti have :test #'equal like in (set-difference list-1 list-2 :test #'equal) even if list of atoms or numbers or strings.. etc? or is there some undefined behavior that will slap you in the face at some point? 09:20:49 define "safe" 09:21:03 safe = no undefined behavior 09:21:49 check the clhs 09:23:30 equal is a total function except for circular lists 09:23:58 but then again, very few library functions are expected to cope with circular input 09:25:52 tfb [~tfb@80.238.0.145] has joined #lisp 09:26:25 ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 09:26:31 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-rrosssoeagcbzqdf] has left #lisp 09:26:43 -!- ihyoyoung [raster@140.211.167.168] has quit [Quit:   .] 09:26:56 pdo [~pdo@217.33.254.141] has joined #lisp 09:27:59 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:30:19 mal: ok then it's not bad to use equal every time 09:30:59 francogrex: yes, if you want unpredictable results 09:32:58 vilikki [viileppi@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-anqpwkddsybuvkdi] has joined #lisp 09:33:32 hello magicians 09:33:57 can someone recommend nice REPL other than slime or gnu clisp? 09:34:41 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:35:16 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:35:27 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 09:36:07 vilikki: define "nice REPL" 09:36:14 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 09:36:21 vilikki: but in general, SLIME is awesome. 09:36:45 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 09:36:53 vilikki: especially if used together with SBCL 09:37:06 jdz: no flame here but i'd rather stay off emacs 09:37:19 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 09:37:22 vilikki: CCL has it own IDE 09:37:34 vilikki: McCLIM includes a Listener 09:37:40 i'd need it for learning basics of lisp 09:37:59 there's also Lispworks' and ACL's IDEs 09:38:04 *there are 09:38:15 p_l|backup: clojure? 09:38:24 akovalenko [~user@95.72.99.146] has joined #lisp 09:38:34 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:38:43 not a CL 09:38:58 and I don't know of any "nice" REPLs for it outside SLIME 09:39:21 zardoz8 [~redmundia@84.122.73.141.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 09:39:30 i mean one that keeps being parenthesis-aware on multiple lines 09:39:56 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 09:40:40 clisp and gambit-c (not lisp, i know) have failed this already 09:40:40 I don't think you're going to be in much luck. There are some modes for ViM, and there was this Swank client for Eclipse (no idea if it's still updated) 09:40:55 corman lisp has a nice repl as well 09:41:36 the decision to stay away from emacs though is not justified 09:42:28 H4ns [~hans@host-67-23-65-202.biznesshosting.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:45 emacs is like skating backwards: it's good to know and looks awesome but some guys wont learn it no matter what 09:43:21 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:43:34 xharkonnen [~charles@host86-141-143-76.range86-141.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:43:47 you don't need to learn emacs in any deep way if only you're using it as repl, and honestly those who can't learn that should not bother learning programming 09:44:06 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 09:45:26 hello. I'm trying to use swig to wrap C functions. how can I make asdf execute swig program before it attempts to load the .lisp files it generates? 09:45:27 thank you for your encourging words :) 09:45:28 vilikki: if you like vim, use slimv 09:46:17 well, i don't use vi either.. i use pico 09:47:04 vilikki: quite frankly, pico is not a real editor. 09:47:19 vilikki if you insist you can use emacs just as a repl, and pico for editing files 09:47:34 ccorn [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has joined #lisp 09:48:10 vilikki: the point of using emacs is not only that it has slime integrated, it also does the indentation and parenthesis counting for you. 09:48:45 vilikki: i'd recommend that you just try emacs again. go through the tutorial another time. 09:48:49 flip214: is there a way to actually input a tab when slimv is installed and filetype is lisp? 09:48:50 i admit that if my will of learning lisp lasts for a year, emacs would become handy 09:49:34 vilikki: your will of learning lisp will fade in a week if you don't do it properly 09:49:57 vilikki: keeping parens balanced and indentation is a task for a machine 09:50:31 anddam: if you have expandtab off? why not? 09:50:40 vilikki: Emacs is like switching from a Smart to an enhanced heavy-duty off-road vehicle. The second is harder but has a lot more power 09:50:43 it tries to autocomplete 09:51:03 and says "Pattern not found" as I'm moving a parenthesis 09:51:19 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:52:52 anddam: ah yes, the autocompletion .... just comment the mapping line in ftplugin/slimv.vim, or how about a ":inoremap " or similar? 09:53:00 ok, you almost have talked me over 09:53:14 why would you want to move a paren, by the way? just use auto-indentation 09:53:28 anddam: what about ^V ? 09:53:57 anddam: ^V (Ctrl+V) escapes a character in vim, so it's inserted verbatim 09:54:06 akovalenko: working and uncomfortable 09:55:23 spradnyesh [~pradyus@117.192.49.78] has joined #lisp 09:55:26 let me rephrase my question. I'm trying to make asdf run executable that will generate .lisp files it is loading. any pointers on how to do that? 09:56:12 in other words .asd file should run a program that will generate .lisp file that are loaded by the same .asd system 09:56:20 +s 09:56:22 markskil1eck [~mark@host86-136-238-48.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:56:40 flip214: where should inoremap go, vimrc or the plugin? 09:57:15 I'm not unwilling to use Aquamacs, but I dislika having to change all known keyboard shortcuts 09:57:19 dislike* 09:59:43 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@117.192.49.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:00:33 -!- Salamander_ is now known as Salamander 10:00:36 http://aquamacs.org/features.shtml says SLIME is builtin but http://aquamacs.org/download.shtml has a quite confusing paragraph about it 10:00:46 ". This plugin requires Aquamacs 1.6 or later. SLIME 2.0 was included with earlier versions." 10:01:37 so in earlier versions (but not before Aquamacs 1.6) there was SLIME 2.0, I'm unsure about if SLIME is included now or not that Aquamacs is 2.x 10:01:50 Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 10:02:07 anddam: ~/.vim/after/syntax/lisp.vim is my suggestion 10:02:44 flip214: don't have that file 10:02:57 I got indent/lisp.vim 10:04:39 vilikki: dont know if already said: what about racket (scheme)? 10:04:58 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:05:32 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:05:37 anddam: no, that's what you should create ... so that your inoremap overrides slimv settings 10:06:03 churib: will try racket, thx! 10:07:15 Is there some obvious way to build pairs from a flat list using loop or mapping? Or do I need something custom? 10:08:23 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-216-37.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:09:01 Kenjin: (loop for (x y) on '(1 2 3 4) by #'cddr collect (cons x y)) 10:09:01 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-216-37.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:11:09 H4ns: thanks! I tried something like that, only I was using the "in" directive 10:11:16 and it wasn't working :P 10:13:16 gienah [~mwright@ppp121-44-70-112.lns20.syd6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:13:24 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:14:15 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-rpmzketznzigspsv] has joined #lisp 10:15:36 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 10:15:45 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:16:35 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 10:17:57 -!- francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:21:26 lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-41-59.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:25:34 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-82.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:26:29 ow on earth you quit emacs? 10:26:39 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:26:59 vilikki: C-x C-c 10:27:12 vilikki: i'd recommend that you go through the tutorial. C-h t 10:28:27 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 10:28:34 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 10:30:21 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 10:31:21 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 10:31:24 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:32:12 _danb_ [~user@124-149-162-79.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:33:08 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 10:33:17 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:34:10 M-x slime gives "no match" so I assume slime is not installed 10:34:29 is that correct? 10:34:51 i installed slime but forgot sbcl 10:34:59 anddam: yes. do you have quicklispy 10:35:04 *Quicklisp? 10:35:16 I set it in clisp 10:35:44 set it up* 10:36:11 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 10:36:18 anddam: you can use the same installation from sbcl 10:36:30 anddam: Quicklisp is a package manager (+ package collection) http://beta.quicklisp.org 10:36:41 akovalenko: I know, I installed it on clisp 10:36:59 Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has joined #lisp 10:37:05 I read about it on comp.lang.lisp 10:37:16 H4ns: do I have to use sbcl rather than clisp? 10:37:42 anddam: then you may quickload quicklisp-slime-helper 10:38:01 anddam: no, you can use what you want. sbcl is better supported in this channel. 10:38:04 anddam: and load ~/quicklisp/slime-helper.el in your emacs 10:39:24 anddam: ..so you don't have to think on "how to install slime on my system", "why slime from my distro is too old", etc 10:39:54 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-4-49.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:40:02 ah, the slime :) 10:40:23 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:40:41 clisp uses readline, but you can fix sbcl there with rlwrap sbcl 10:40:45 anddam: I'm regularly using QL with SBCL, CCL and CLISP, works fine :) 10:40:55 -!- todun_ [~todun@c-68-80-95-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: :q] 10:41:15 sometimes ECL as well 10:41:39 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.42.115.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:42:12 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-79-206.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:42:20 akovalenko: I see the point 10:42:37 does "load in emacs" mean edit the file? 10:42:54 anddam: no, it means M-x load-file 10:42:56 or is there a different meaning, like parse&exec 10:43:18 I renamed my quicklisp folder to ~/.quicklisp 10:43:50 anddam: or better yet, add (load "~/.quicklisp/slime-helper") to your ~/.emacs 10:45:08 akovalenko: that is complementary to http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Installation.html#Installation or exclusive? 10:45:48 I'd say exclusive, quicklisp xor manual install 10:45:59 -!- anvandare [~anvandare@78-21-52-51.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:46:44 anddam: except that inferior-lisp-program bit, probably 10:46:52 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:47:40 anddam: i.e. quicklisp-slime-helper takes care on load path, depends on quicklisp's slime, etc, but IIRC it won't tell emacs about inferior-lisp-program 10:48:01 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 10:48:02 that I don't know about either 10:48:28 anddam: it's a string that names your lisp executable 10:48:45 nvm, the quicklisp instructions set the inferior-lisp bit too 10:48:46 anddam: like "/usr/bin/clisp" or something 10:48:54 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-177-201-46.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 10:49:55 wooo! 10:49:56 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 10:49:57 it started :-) 10:50:12 in Aquamacs, I mean 10:50:23 M-x slime 10:51:01 is quicklisp in elisp or something else? 10:51:37 Tasser: quicklisp is in Common Lisp 10:52:07 Tasser: but it includes slime-helper.el, which is 30 lines of emacs lisp 10:52:46 Tasser: s/includes/provides (if you quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper)/ 10:53:00 wolfpython [~wolf@61.160.83.66] has joined #lisp 10:53:15 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-25-142.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:53:16 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-25-142.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 10:53:16 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:54:24 gaidal [~gaidal@58.62.105.9] has joined #lisp 10:54:59 http://beta.quicklisp.org/quickstart/asdf.lisp <- lol 10:55:48 -!- blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-43568cfa.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:55:55 blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-43568cfa.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 10:57:13 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:57:44 -!- topeak 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[~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:01:27 hi 12:01:44 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 12:01:49 lo 12:01:53 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:02:42 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:53 Tasser: lol? 12:04:31 Xach: be prepared that some people will now learn about asdf after installing quicklisp :) 12:05:09 I hope they don't have to, usually. 12:05:18 akovalenko, r u always "on" here ? 12:05:30 akovalenko: please don't write "r u" when you mean "Are you" 12:05:36 sorry, morphism 12:05:45 god gave you 10 fingers! 12:05:47 lol 12:06:09 Xach, why you said sorry to me ? 12:06:16 morphism: not always, obviously. When my emacs is running, and my connection is okay.. 12:06:18 =) ok, just kidding, I got it 12:06:37 akovalenko, you chat via your emacs ? How ??? 12:06:42 another Lisp ? 12:06:44 morphism: ERC 12:06:57 morphism: It was a correction in addressing. 12:07:15 morphism: mail, news, and jabber all work fine in Emacs, too 12:07:28 nice 12:07:44 like a manager inside OS 12:07:45 morphism: embedded Web browser (w3m), however, is not universally enough 12:08:05 can you send me the link ? I can't find it 12:08:05 i use conkeror for that..... 12:08:21 it always mess with VN institude 12:08:42 link to what? 12:08:52 ERC 12:09:07 or is that stand for embedded Relay Chat ? 12:09:10 I've installed ERC from emacs package archive at tromey.com 12:09:23 http://tromey.com/elpa/ 12:09:38 -!- frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:10:04 H4ns [41173d62@gateway/web/freenode/ip.65.23.61.98] has joined #lisp 12:10:13 morphism: I assume it's more like "Emacs Relay Chat" 12:10:21 freedomForTheYet [5ac58a4e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.90.197.138.78] has joined #lisp 12:10:43 pnq [~nick@ACA203B9.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 12:10:51 hey guys, does lisp have an official tutorial like java and python does 12:11:29 freedomForTheYet: how any lisp tutorial would get an official status? 12:11:40 there are several books out there that teach you lisp 12:11:53 nicdev [~user@c-98-217-188-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:04 akovalenko, it's nice :D 12:12:49 akovalenko: well python and java has an offical tutorial on their site because it's made by people involved in it's development 12:13:56 python and java share the fact that the language standard is defined by a single implementation and thus they can use the documentation for their implemntation as standard teaching material 12:14:16 this does not hold for lisp 12:14:22 oh ok 12:14:32 try this: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 12:14:33 freedomForTheYet: lisp is very old, and a lot of people have contributed to its development. common lisp is a commitee language, so the closest you can get to something official is the common lisp standard 12:14:42 freedomForTheYet: it is by no means a tutorial though. 12:15:24 so i am a programming beginner. i have practical common lisp, land of lisp and A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation on my hard drive, which should i read? 12:15:47 hm. land of lisp if you like games i think. 12:16:04 freedomForTheYet: if you've never programmed, a gentle introduction should be good 12:16:17 pcl I can recommend from my own experience 12:16:24 freedomForTheYet: practical common lisp is good when you know one or two other languages. 12:16:30 freedomForTheYet: symbolic 12:16:47 freedomForTheYet: it's the easiest of all afaik..... 12:17:09 well i have a little bit from action script, so i know what functions and variables are 12:17:11 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-155-81.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:17:19 if that helps 12:17:32 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:17:43 jpop [~redmundia@84.122.73.141.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 12:18:11 freedomForTheYet: as you've stolen all three already, why not just start reading them? :) 12:18:26 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:55 freedomForTheYet: it's not about functions and variables......it gets far enough, but starts very easy....you can skip those which you understand immediately..... 12:19:24 H4ns: well only one isn't free, and if i like it i will buy it on print, promish :p 12:19:42 wbooze: ok thanks 12:19:50 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@103.246.106.35] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:20:23 -!- lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-41-59.dynamic.qsc.de] has left #lisp 12:28:32 -!- markskil1eck [~mark@host86-136-238-48.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:28:48 markskil1eck [~mark@host86-136-238-48.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:33:45 -!- freedomForTheYet [5ac58a4e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.90.197.138.78] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:38:21 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:39:07 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 12:40:47 -!- nicdev [~user@c-98-217-188-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:41:45 -!- __main__ [~main@76-220-16-41.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:42:24 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:42:25 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.181.32] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:43:08 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 12:43:15 __main__ [~main@76-220-16-41.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:43:25 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.181.32] has joined #lisp 12:45:02 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:46:51 -!- gko [~gko@27.242.10.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:48:03 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:49 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 12:51:55 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 12:52:33 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:54:23 paul0 [~paul0@200.146.126.207.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 12:54:32 -!- aleron [~brad@221.sub-166-248-73.myvzw.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:55:59 dmiles [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:01 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:58:28 urandom__ [~user@p548A46D0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:17 BlankVerse [~pankajm@103.246.106.35] has joined #lisp 13:00:30 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA203B9.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:01:39 -!- Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:02:02 dwim [~dwim@0.Red-79-156-38.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:27 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:02:32 superflit_ [~superflit@71-208-223-146.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:34 pnq [~nick@ACA203B9.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 13:03:45 -!- superflit [~superflit@174-16-44-117.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:03:45 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 13:11:11 sgt-hagger [~sogeking9@5ac58a4e.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 13:11:44 hey guys, how do I use the software that accompanies A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation? 13:11:52 and should i use it? 13:12:49 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:13:22 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:14:06 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:26 sgt-hagger: if you are talking about the stuff in http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Lisp/ - this seems to be rather old code that is specific to ancient compiler versions. if you feel like porting it forward, then go ahead. 13:14:31 fartofagony [fartofagon@c-346ee155.227-1-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:14:36 hi 13:14:56 mstevens [~mstevens@ceres.etla.org] has joined #lisp 13:14:56 i am bothered with the decisions :( 13:14:59 I think I tried sdraw once :) 13:15:06 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@ceres.etla.org] has quit [Changing host] 13:15:06 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 13:15:14 between lisp and c/c++ 13:15:21 felideon: to what success? 13:15:26 yeah because it says here in the book: ** 13:15:26 Note to instructors: If students are already using the computer, this would be a good time to introduce the 13:15:26 SDRAW tool appearing in the appendix 13:15:37 many sy lisp is faster in ways 13:15:54 sgt-hagger: from the wording you can tell that the book is pretty old :) 13:15:55 and doesnt require as much time as c 13:16:01 foa, easy answer - use both 13:16:11 sgt-hagger: from the time in which some cs students did not see computers until after their first year :) 13:16:26 then why dont they use it in most games? 13:16:32 in game development 13:16:40 yeah it's only used graphs so far 13:16:50 if its faster and less time consuming thant c 13:16:56 It... is used in games. 13:17:08 H4ns: I kind of remember being able to draw a cons cell or two. 13:17:14 any populare ones? 13:17:16 felideon: uh! 13:17:28 it was a while back 13:17:35 i mean, you never hear about lisp, always about c++ and java these days 13:17:39 Yes, popular ones. There's a Playstation development environment. 13:17:42 -!- tfb [~tfb@80.238.0.145] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 13:17:49 oh 13:18:02 But really, use them both and see what you like. 13:18:30 then i guess c++ and java = the new shoe b rand all the kids want to buy and wear 13:18:46 Not so much Java any more. It's finally peaked and is in decline. 13:19:04 ooh 13:19:18 (sdraw (list 'a 'b 'c)) worked! 13:19:28 tsuru9 [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:35 Anyway, foa, snag a Lisp book and give it a try. You'll probably enjoy it. 13:19:45 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.187.102] has joined #lisp 13:19:47 it had its time, god i hate java, wasting courses and time learning the language i dont want to learn 13:19:52 is c# meant to be replacing java? thats a bad idea since its only for windows really isn't it? 13:19:58 sgt-hagger: off topic. 13:19:58 -!- tsuru9 is now known as tsuru` 13:20:20 i have discovered soo many programming languages never heard of and they all seem better than the ones i always hear about 13:20:29 foa, read a little of this and see how it goes: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 13:20:54 sorry Xach. 13:20:57 oh thanks 13:21:05 (If you decide you like it, buying it is a reasonable way to support the community.) 13:21:06 going to check it out right away 13:21:16 k 13:21:22 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:22:01 so is all of A Gentle Introduction presented through graphs? 13:24:26 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:25:00 -!- duomo [~duomo@cpe-69-204-169-245.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 13:25:28 -!- Krystof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:25:29 leyyer_su [~user@221.237.9.207] has joined #lisp 13:26:34 in the beginning mostly, and thruout you'll find them in the exercises too 13:26:57 later on it gets fewer and fewer graphs afaik 13:27:06 gets to* 13:28:54 ah ok 13:29:31 so lisp is just as fast as C is it? 13:29:40 yes 13:29:50 mostly... 13:29:59 the difference is minor 13:30:10 it is not programming languages that are fast, it is programs and implementations 13:30:17 lisp is sufficiently fast for most cases 13:30:26 yes, it's sufficiently fast 13:31:30 sgt-hagger: I tested once, by adding all integers from 1 to 2^32 ... 64bit GCC and SBCL ... sbcl was faster. JFI. 13:31:30 so realistically lisp is just as capable of C for making games, but because C is one of the major popular ones nowadays its used a lot more? 13:31:37 frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 13:32:05 dlowe [dlowe@nat/google/x-lnlhlpnmgblqlryk] has joined #lisp 13:32:05 i doubt many people use C for games, more like C++ 13:32:13 -!- Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:32:42 maybe ? 13:32:56 sgt-hagger: even perl is used for games: http://ue.o---o.eu/ 13:33:19 what was that playstation game, written in lisp? 13:33:36 can't recall the name 13:33:40 crash bandicoot 13:33:41 thought Lisp was used to make AI engine in Ps2 13:33:49 http://lmgtfy.com/?q=playstation+lisp&l=1 13:34:05 it was _A_ lisp, not common lisp 13:34:12 a custom version with its own compiler, even 13:34:17 oh right 13:34:28 dlowe they used allegro common lisp 13:34:40 kennyd: for the GOAL compiler, yeah 13:34:44 as far as i remember, the GOOL compiler was written in what kennyd said 13:34:57 or GOAL 13:34:58 lisp is as cool as you make it 13:35:37 yeah, well. That's why I made snarc 13:35:55 dlowe, agreed 13:36:27 aleron [~brad@226.sub-166-248-73.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 13:36:38 -!- X-Scale [email@89.180.152.233] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:37:41 why in this line '(remove-if-not #'evenp '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10))' is evenp quoted, since its a function, and not just a piece of data? 13:38:01 sgt-hagger: it expands to (function evenp) 13:38:15 evenp alone would name a variable named evenp 13:38:20 functions live in a different namespace 13:38:46 so you can have (let ((evenp 2)) (evenp evenp)) => T 13:38:55 if you are so insane 13:39:17 well, CL has other functions than EVENP 13:39:35 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-245-85.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:39:35 you can have a variable named time or room. That's useful. 13:39:47 and which names are often suitable as variables 13:39:55 most often i use, i guess, is LIST 13:40:12 -!- zakwilson_ is now known as zakwilson 13:40:46 so the '#' expands it to a function? 13:41:09 no, it expands to (function ...) 13:41:16 #'evenp is the same as (function evenp). it's a shortcut 13:41:46 sgt-hagger: in the same way that just ' expands to (quote ...) 13:42:28 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.181.32] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:42:33 now, if you evaluate (function name), it may result in a function object 13:42:43 oh so it could be (remove-if-not (evenp '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9)))? 13:42:49 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.181.32] has joined #lisp 13:42:50 nope! 13:43:09 how did you come to this conclusion? 13:44:47 i dunno really, guess i'm confused about the syntax 13:45:38 'foo == (quote foo) 13:45:44 #'foo == (function foo) 13:45:52 sgt-hagger: just try to internalize that #' is a special shortcut 13:46:10 or not use #' at all 13:46:13 or that 13:46:17 sgt-hagger: you know how lisp is composed of lists of objects? 13:46:31 jdz: no, we already have pjb! 13:46:36 sgt-hagger: (function evenp) evaluates to the global evenp function and sticks it right in there as an argument 13:46:41 yeah, with con cells, linking to each other 13:47:06 stassats: well, there's no much harm in using just QUOTE instead of FUNCTION for functions in CL package 13:47:31 oh i've called functions before but never needed the 'function' prefix before 13:47:44 sgt-hagger: it is not a prefix 13:47:56 jdz: it makes me not want to read such code 13:48:00 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:48:20 stassats: it's good that my code is not public, then 13:48:29 stassats: i'd have one less reader of it, then 13:48:48 is there a harm in doing it to functions not in cl package? 13:49:27 jpop: if the function is being redefined, then yes 13:49:56 jpop: there's no harm, just different semantics 13:50:14 jpop: sometimes you want to capture the function value at some point in time, sometimes you don't 13:50:20 so some functions need 'function' before the call? 13:50:28 sgt-hagger: no. 13:50:59 do you use (coerce (vector (name-char (string (quote h))) (name-char (string (quote e))) (name-char (string (quote l))) (name-char (string (quote l))) (name-char (string (quote o)))) (quote string)) instead of "HELLO"? 13:51:24 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-147-40.lns10.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:28 sgt-hagger: in order to tell remove-if-not what function that IT needs to apply to the other arguments, you have to pass a function 'object' to it. that's what (function evenp) is providing 13:51:39 remember, YOU aren't calling evenp, remove-if-not is 13:51:42 you don't have to pass 'object' 13:51:46 hatterMan [5ac58a4e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.90.197.138.78] has joined #lisp 13:51:49 sgt-hagger: #'X resp. (function X) is used to get the _function_ X as a value, for passing to another function. _calling_ a function is different from _referencing_ it. 13:51:49 you can pass 'evenp 13:52:02 aleron: all it wants is a _function designator_ 13:52:23 jdz: I was grasping for generic terms (which I realize are wrong) that he might be able to get the gist from 13:52:31 -!- gienah [~mwright@ppp121-44-70-112.lns20.syd6.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:53:12 aleron: well, using FUNCTION special operator is only one way... 13:53:19 value was a better term, as flip214 used 13:53:33 oh i get what you mean, thanks 13:53:34 it's the only one if you want to use a local function 13:57:08 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.76.6] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:57:31 whats a lambda function? 13:57:37 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 13:57:42 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.76.6] has joined #lisp 13:57:48 a function with no name 13:57:58 -!- em_ [~em@user-0ccem0s.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 13:58:08 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 13:58:28 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.76.6] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:59:22 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.76.6] has joined #lisp 13:59:29 -!- hatterMan [5ac58a4e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.90.197.138.78] has left #lisp 14:00:11 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.76.6] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:00:23 -!- kpavn [A@nat/ibm/x-dqnplslcgjokunsc] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:00:28 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.76.6] has joined #lisp 14:00:40 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 14:01:47 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-72-43-20-246.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:01:49 gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:02:05 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-jdzzzxvdokzngjfu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:03:32 lurker-x [~androirc@32.150.100.247] has joined #lisp 14:04:42 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-tcbndeuyxvcvrfrb] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:05:26 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.76.6] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:05:42 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.76.6] has joined #lisp 14:05:49 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:06:16 -!- gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:06:24 gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:38 hullo 14:07:46 -!- wolfpython [~wolf@61.160.83.66] has quit [Quit: ] 14:09:11 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:09:13 Cloud_ [~cbolano@189.247.114.208] has joined #lisp 14:10:58 -!- Cloud_ is now known as cesarbp 14:11:43 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-244-30.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 14:11:50 i take it people here use emacs? you know how c-F c-B go back and forward by character, can you go back by words? 14:12:02 M-f M-b 14:13:11 thats what i would have thought 14:13:13 You can go back and forwards by forms with C-M-f and C-M-b 14:13:18 sabalaba [~sabalaba_@c-98-250-107-145.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:19 oh on lisbox it works 14:13:32 but on my normal emacs that doesn't work some reason 14:13:54 sgt-hagger: that's probably because you're in a terminal. 14:13:57 sgt-hagger: if you're on Windows, M- may be something other than Alt (Winkey?) 14:14:03 sgt-hagger: does meta work at all for you? 14:14:20 I'm on window, and M is Alt, normal Emacs too 14:14:39 Have just set it up yesterday, since I decided to say good bye to LispBox 14:14:56 morphism: what emacs did you install? 14:15:12 yeah M is alt more me. C-v and M-v works normal, but M-f/M-b never has 14:15:39 sgt-hagger: try C-h k M-f -- what will it say? 14:16:01 from gnu 14:16:26 H4ns, mine ís 23.2 14:16:38 morphism: i use emacsw32 on windows, that works well http://ourcomments.org/Emacs/EmacsW32.html 14:16:39 sgt-hagger: (C-h k is describe-key, it should make clear if M-f is remapping to something, or if it's ignored, etc) 14:17:01 undefined, thats strange 14:17:10 i will just reinstall it 14:17:16 kruhft [~user@209.89.22.115] has joined #lisp 14:17:30 H4ns, why not just use the normal Emacs ? 14:17:36 mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 14:17:36 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has quit [Changing host] 14:17:36 mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has joined #lisp 14:17:36 *akovalenko* sometimes uses bleeding-edge emacsen from http://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/windows/ 14:18:07 morphism: for me personally, emacsw32 worked very well in the past. not so much the other emacsen that i have tried 14:18:09 Oh, no Common Lisp on http://repl.it/ ... 14:18:41 akovalenko, your nick always remind me of Anton Vanko in Iron Man :O 14:19:06 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba_@c-98-250-107-145.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:19:45 flip214, that's too bad 14:20:01 they must have Common Lisp by 1st 14:22:38 btw, why freenode said something about register at .... ? 14:23:04 -!- paul0 [~paul0@200.146.126.207.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: paul0] 14:25:59 -!- quasisane [~sanep@c-76-24-80-97.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:27:32 -!- frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:30:35 i find remembering all these car and cdr combinations hard to remember 14:31:14 sgt-hagger: combinations? 14:31:39 I think I usually remember three: car, cdr, and cddr. 14:31:47 The rest I think I've used once or twice in 10 years 14:34:46 Or just use nth. 14:34:50 they are not supposed to be remembered, but figured out (well, when you need any other than what Xach mentioned) 14:35:13 *p_l|backup* also uses cadr 14:35:25 car is the first element, cdr is the second and onwards, cddr, is that (cdr(car)) 14:35:34 sgt-hagger: it's not 14:35:46 jdz, how do you figure it out? 14:35:54 (cddr x) was (cdr(cdr x) iirc 14:35:58 dmiles [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:13 sabalaba [~sabalaba_@c-98-250-107-145.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:14 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:36:20 I like to think of them as aliases for combinations of first and rest 14:36:42 but i don't use them that much if I can help it 14:36:43 sgt-hagger: easy. in cADr, you replace every A letter with car, and every D letter with cdr 14:36:55 dwim: NTH isn't a good choice when you're dealing with something that isn't a list but still is built on conses (like trees) 14:37:07 sgt-hagger: so cadadar becomes (car (cdr (car (cdr (car ...))))) 14:37:34 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 14:38:16 ok ok cool. so is (cdr(cdr x) the second item on the second list? 14:38:41 sgt-hagger: well, CAR and CDR are better understood in terms of conses 14:39:53 oh right 14:39:54 antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-2925098846.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:39:59 sgt-hagger: i think second item in the second list would be cddar 14:40:28 jdz: that would be the first item in the second item in the second list 14:40:39 sgt-hagger: download SDRAW.LISP (part of code for Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation) and use that to navigate some constructs 14:40:59 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 14:41:01 for *caddr 14:41:05 Iceland_jack: that would be the first item in the tail of the tail of the given cons cell 14:41:21 Iceland_jack: oh, right you are 14:41:37 kur da DA! 14:42:34 topeak [~topeak@118.186.129.140] has joined #lisp 14:42:40 p_l|backup, ok i'll take a look 14:44:52 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 14:46:41 Is today's slime a very good slime? 14:46:46 What say you, stassats? 14:46:58 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:47:05 It may live forever in this month's Quicklisp. 14:47:10 whick sdraw should i get from here? http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Lisp/sdraw/ 14:47:43 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:03 sgt-hagger: .generic 14:49:32 ok thanks 14:51:25 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-76-82.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 14:51:32 Xach: new QL? 14:51:46 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba_@c-98-250-107-145.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:52:11 loke: I try to update projects once per month. 14:52:15 It is not ready yet. 14:52:32 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:52:43 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:20 Xach: do you know the CXML api's well, by the way? 14:53:36 i know enough to dig around in the docs 14:53:54 Xach: then either yo are better than me, or what I'm looking for doesn't exist 14:54:09 can't it be both? 14:54:48 Xach: do you know if there is a way to serialise a DOM tree to a stream in a "pull" form? In other words, I want a function that takes aDOM and returns a stream that I can read from, as opposed to passing in a stream that the serialisation should write to 14:55:35 What I'm doing is that I have a DOM tree and I need to upload it with drakma 14:56:07 Why do you need a stream you can read from for that? 14:56:28 -!- dwim [~dwim@0.Red-79-156-38.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: dwim] 14:56:29 Xach: because the reading is done by drakma. 14:57:17 Xach: what I'm doing now is to serialise it into a byte vector, but that forces me to store the entire document in a vector temporarily 14:57:34 So? 14:57:44 it would be nicer if I could just serialise directly to the network 14:57:46 joelr [~joelr@bas12-kitchener06-2925332964.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:57:49 moin 14:57:52 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:57:54 loke: Nicer how? 14:58:05 Xach: uses less memory 14:58:11 (and faster, too) 14:58:18 loke: That's questionable. 14:58:44 suppose you have a defconstant in a lisp file and then you want to use it in (ecase ). i understand that you have to use #. but my lisp is reporting that the constant is not found. is (load-time-value ) is proper replacement for #. in this case? 14:58:46 Xach: if I have a multi-MB XML document, being able to avoid storing it in a vector is an advantage 14:58:50 loke: i'm not with you on the nice/fast road, but how does dom:map-document not work for you? 14:59:14 loke: maybe if multi is 500 or more. 14:59:16 now, if the functionality exists in CXML, I'd use it as it's simple. I't definitely not worth it to implement myself 14:59:24 joelr: are you defining it in the same file? 14:59:31 Xach: yes, same file 14:59:52 newcup [newcup@peruna.fi] has joined #lisp 15:00:00 really anooying, my pc seems to of broke, which had all of my exercises and experiments 15:00:04 don't want to split the constants away for aesthetical reasons, would prefer everything in the same file 15:00:20 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA203B9.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:00:27 Xach: i know that i can use #. if the constants are in a separate file, my question is what to do if they are in the same file 15:00:40 H4ns: I need a "pull" parser, as opposed to push. The map-thing is "push" in the sense that I have a callback that is called for each element. WHat I need is a function that gives me the "next' piece of data 15:00:40 joelr: I think you might be out of luck. 15:00:52 Xach: what about load-time-value as a replacement for #.? 15:01:01 joelr: I don't know. 15:01:07 actually, a simple test is in order. let me check... 15:01:33 frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 15:01:56 loke: you said you use drakma. you want to send the xml document to the server? 15:02:31 H4ns: correct 15:02:32 joelr: maybe you want (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel) (defconstant ...)) ? 15:02:49 H4ns: i probably do as :load-toplevel is excluded by default 15:02:57 loke: and you have your document in a dom when you do the request? 15:03:00 H4ns: is there any harm in doing it the way you suggest? 15:03:03 H4ns: yes 15:03:04 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 15:03:22 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:03:26 H4ns: I don't think that will help if the implementation chooses to initialize the constant only at load time. 15:04:03 loke: you can pass a function to drakma's :content argument which will be called with a stream to the server. in that function, you can use dom:map-document 15:04:04 H4ns: never mind, you can't use load-time-value :( 15:04:08 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:08 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-140-90.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:21 Xach: ah, i see. bad bad implementation 15:04:25 H4ns: woah, really? 15:04:29 that's awesome. Thanks! 15:04:30 H4ns: clisp at least does it that way. 15:04:34 joelr: what implementation are you using? 15:04:44 Xach: lispworks at the moment 15:04:47 Exactly what I needed 15:04:55 lispworks and clisp, then 15:05:01 bad, bad defconstant 15:05:03 loke: i did right the same thing a few days ago and was pleased with it. 15:05:06 should have used dropbox or something, damn 15:05:25 This is where I'm doing it. Rewriting the code to use that trick will be very simple. http://code.google.com/p/cl-gdata/source/browse/src/spreadsheets.lisp#312 15:06:26 Xach ;-) 15:06:39 <- is about to spend 10k on two lispworks enterprise licenses 15:06:44 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has left #lisp 15:07:00 i can sell you an enterprise sbcl license way cheaper 15:07:04 $4500 tops 15:07:46 Xach: thanks 15:07:48 joelr: I was recently getting quotes from both LW and Allegro for commercial CL's for use to run a web server (hunchentoot, etc). Allegro was on the order of 50 times more expensive. 15:07:54 Is this typical? 15:08:06 loke: Did you actually talk to a salesperson or did you estimate based on public info? 15:08:17 loke: franz is unique in that their deployment terms are onerous 15:08:31 Xach: I talked to salespeople. I told them what I needed and I got a quote. LW was perfectly reasonable. Allegro was ridiculous. 15:08:43 i actually have 3 enterprise franz licenses (didn't pay for them, did barter) but i cannot use them for deployment due to terms 15:09:04 *Xach* has 2 enterprise allegro licenses donated for quicklisp testing purposes 15:09:13 dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 15:09:21 *Xach* needs to do more testing so h4ns doesn't run into so many modern headaches... 15:09:27 joelr: The application is developed on SBCL, I only need LW or Allegro for deployment as this will run on Solaris x86 15:09:27 loke: that is quite typical. franz has a small customer base that is willing to pay these prices. 15:09:34 *joelr* wrote a cocoa bridge for allegro 15:09:45 kpavn [~kpavn@77.41.103.59] has joined #lisp 15:09:54 loke: sounds good. what kind of application? 15:09:55 loke: did you try ccl? if i remember right, it runs on solaris 15:09:55 H4ns: what makes Allegro worth it for them then? It was clearly not worth it for us. 15:10:16 loke: support, enterprise libraries, "used it for ages" 15:10:17 H4ns: Yeah, I tried, but there were some dependencies that didn't work right. Can't remember which ones. 15:10:22 franz support is super-awesome. apart from that i think allegrograph is about the only thing these days 15:10:41 joelr: It's a web application to for forex trading. 15:10:56 loke: oooooh birds of feather flock together :D 15:11:01 joelr: ? 15:11:15 loke: are you doing this with a bunch of like-minded people or is this a personal project? 15:11:25 *joelr* is betting his future on lisp and trading platforms 15:11:43 loke: do you know what easylanguage is? 15:11:44 joelr: I work for a major software vendor for risk-anslysis and treasuries trading systems 15:11:56 loke: why lisp? 15:12:15 <- cut his teeth in securities lending 15:12:16 joelr: This particular application is pretty small though, and is just interfacing certain functionalities to the enterprise system 15:12:21 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:12:25 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:12:34 joelr: because it's nice, and I had no requirement on platform to use for development, so I picked what I wanted 15:13:00 joelr: Other than it having to run on Solaris x86, since that's what the rest of the system will be deployed on 15:13:13 loke: i wrote a translator from tradestation's easylanguage to ninjatrader c#, in various languages including lisp. i now want to write an engine to run easylanguage on the server, connected to a data feed and execution api 15:13:15 -!- sgt-hagger [~sogeking9@5ac58a4e.bb.sky.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:13:18 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:34 not sure it's worth my while to finish the translator 15:13:45 -!- leyyer_su [~user@221.237.9.207] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:13:46 joelr: this stuff is somewhat more specialised 15:13:59 Xach: I think my blog is gonna be all about lisp going forward :-) 15:14:07 joelr: o how i have heard that before! 15:14:13 Xach: yeah, i know 15:14:32 joelr: essentially, the customer wants to provide some specialised trading options to certain high-priority clients, but they can't obviously access the enterprise system directly, so they need a web interface for it. 15:14:58 lisp gets me going, though. i can just hack away merrily for hours. enthusiastically. 15:15:06 anvandare [~anvandare@78-21-55-92.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 15:15:08 -!- frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:15:11 I'm writing about lisp on Google+ :-) 15:15:25 *felideon* worked at TradeStation 4+ years 15:15:32 loke: yeah, i know. i worked as a director of prime brokerage technology once. prime brokerage sounds like what you are doing. 15:15:47 *joelr* high-fives felideon 15:15:52 felideon: doing what? 15:16:13 HG` [~HG@p5DC05EB3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:22 QA mostly, for the website. 15:16:45 loke, on G+ ? 15:16:52 Ohh tradesttaion 15:16:53 -!- whartung_ [~will@adsl-69-231-41-111.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: whartung_] 15:16:57 about what with Lisp ? 15:18:15 joelr: well, out system is cross-asset front to back (that makes me sound like marketing material). A very large number of the largest banks use us for their treasury operations. 15:18:50 Xach: You've only made one post on Google+. I'm disappointed :-) 15:19:16 loke: got it 15:19:19 Not a fan. 15:19:31 Xach: fair enough 15:19:37 *joelr* is at ea mobile in kitchener, ontario introducing lisp 15:21:40 Xach, you use G+ too ? 15:21:45 Not really. 15:21:58 =.= I'm impressed 15:22:16 joelr: did they ever launch OOP EasyLanguage? 15:22:29 felideon: i think they did but i'm not sure. 15:22:59 joelr: you should start your classes with a nice speech, along the lines of "I don't expect you will really understand the beauty of the softly humming REPL with its evaluating forms, the delicate power of functions that creep through blocks, returning values, lambdaing the methods....I can teach you how to code fame, compile glory and even put a parentheses around death." 15:23:37 -!- spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Quit: spacefrogg] 15:23:52 anvandare: oh, i'm not doing classes. just had a chance to sneak lisp into the project. 15:24:02 aww :( 15:24:12 Gapisz si w literki? 15:24:22 Oops. 15:24:24 Sorry. :) 15:26:03 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:26:46 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:27:13 i wish we didn't have to sneak lisp into day to day work :-/ 15:27:14 cheezus [~Adium@173-164-132-22-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:19 Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:31 Xach: why system-apropos and not just apropos? ql deals in nothing but systems, right? 15:27:35 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:42 *joelr* thinks quicklisp is awesome 15:27:59 joelr, I think a debian guy would answer differently 15:28:18 Tasser: i'm not a debian guy 15:28:36 joelr: I did not want ql functions to have the same name as CL functions. 15:28:53 joelr: it was tempting to call ql:quickload ql:require, but I thought that would be more confusing than it was worth. 15:28:54 Xach: ah! 15:29:40 *Xach* has enterprise quicklisp licenses available too 15:29:45 does anyone know, off the top of their heads, how to get an md5 hash of a string as a hex string? 15:29:46 Xach: on that topic, is there a reason there are so many exported symbols and so many packages? I'm not very experienced with packaging applications, so there may be a reason. 15:29:50 i did download ironclad 15:29:51 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.181.32] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:30:05 For myself, it'd be more clear if only the functions that are needed by end-users are exported from the QL pakcage. 15:30:25 loke: that is how it works 15:30:41 joelr, I'm from a ruby env and it's rubygems vs. debian on a regular schedule ^^ 15:30:44 joelr: something like (format nil "~{~2,'0X~}" (coerce 'list)) 15:30:45 joelr: ironclad:digest-* 15:30:49 the ql package is for end-users and the functions it exports are the functions end-users are intended to use. 15:30:51 where * is sequence, file, etc... 15:30:55 akovalenko: thanks 15:31:00 loke: looking... 15:31:14 paul0 [~paul0@200.146.126.207.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 15:31:20 joelr: ironclad:byte-array-to-hex-string 15:31:30 Xach: thanks 15:31:51 *akovalenko* took it as a silly contest with "off the top of my head" as a strict requirement 15:31:55 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 15:32:04 akovalenko: ;-) 15:32:11 loke: i developed many parts of quicklisp independently from each other in a self-contained way. when i wanted to glue them together, i put them in separate packages to avoid unintentional symbol clashes. 15:32:39 (ironclad:byte-array-to-hex-string (ironclad:digest-sequence 'ironclad:md5 (trivial-utf-8:string-to-utf-8-bytes "test string"))) 15:32:43 loke: however, only the ql package is meant for end users. the ql-dist package is meant for users of a different sort. 15:33:22 Xach: fair enough, but SLIME has this annoying (mis)feature of expanding ql:apropos into ql-dist:system-apropos 15:33:54 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 15:34:11 (defun :qa (string) (ql:system-apropos string)) 15:34:35 loke: this works too (ironclad:byte-array-to-hex-string (ironclad:digest-sequence :md5 "foobar")) 15:35:02 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:35:06 joelr: It does? I wonder if that's a lispworks-only feature. 15:35:11 The value "test string" 15:35:11 is not of type 15:35:11 (VECTOR (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8)). 15:35:15 that's what I get when I try 15:35:33 loke: dunno, must be lispworks 15:35:51 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:58 Very remotely related to what were were talking about before, do you guys import (use) packages from 3rd party libraries, or do you always fully qualify their symbols? 15:37:07 drdo [~drdo@89.180.114.104] has joined #lisp 15:37:10 srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:32 loke: i us a mix. when i first start hacking on something, i write prefixes. if that gets too annoying, i might import. 15:37:51 sometimes i think i know in advance what i'll use, and import it right away, but i'm almost always wrong about that. 15:37:56 am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has joined #lisp 15:38:15 loke: alexandria package is what I normally USE, cffi is what I use most of the time 15:39:02 holycopralite [~ray.still@12.104.144.2] has joined #lisp 15:39:02 for other things, it's not uncommon for me to add symbols to :import-from as they are needed 15:40:12 I see 15:40:14 frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 15:44:52 -!- cheezus [~Adium@173-164-132-22-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:45:00 -!- psyllo [~benjamin@69.59.136.174] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:46:13 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:46:59 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:32 -!- aleron [~brad@226.sub-166-248-73.myvzw.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:48:44 -!- joelr [~joelr@bas12-kitchener06-2925332964.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: joelr] 15:50:35 -!- dans [~daniel@92.80.124.91] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:52:50 drdo` [~drdo@89.180.114.104] has joined #lisp 15:53:49 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@103.246.106.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:54:13 -!- drdo [~drdo@89.180.114.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:55:44 -!- jpop [~redmundia@84.122.73.141.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: Chateando desde http://webchat.redmundial.org (EOF)] 15:58:50 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:19 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:01:05 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:47 cheezus [~Adium@173-164-132-22-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:59 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 16:04:39 -!- holycopralite [~ray.still@12.104.144.2] has left #lisp 16:06:01 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Byebye.] 16:08:31 -!- misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:08:52 fr31s [~user@117.Red-79-154-81.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:09 -!- Amyn [~abennama@62.23.212.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:10:35 -!- Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: going home] 16:11:29 xcv [~xcv@dsl-225-28.hive.is] has joined #lisp 16:12:28 sabalaba [~sabalaba_@141.212.58.53] has joined #lisp 16:13:27 psyllo [~benjamin@69.59.136.174] has joined #lisp 16:15:30 -!- cheezus [~Adium@173-164-132-22-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:18:26 -!- frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:20:22 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:21:13 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.181.32] has joined #lisp 16:22:13 rme [~rme@50.43.156.82] has joined #lisp 16:22:14 -!- marienz [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has quit [Ping timeout: 606 seconds] 16:22:48 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:24:20 *Xach* spends a few bucks on a domain for lisptips.tumblr.com 16:27:31 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:28:51 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 16:29:38 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@189.247.114.208] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:31:31 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:31:40
Xach: lisptips looks cool! 16:32:00 Xach, I got your face now ;) 16:32:22 younger than I thought =.= 16:32:28 Cloud_ [~cbolano@189.247.194.212] has joined #lisp 16:34:28 Cloud__ [~cbolano@189.139.219.149] has joined #lisp 16:35:01 -!- pdo [~pdo@217.33.254.141] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:35:34 Xach: yes, today slime should be ok 16:35:43 It's why he has the energy to aggressively promote quicklisp. 16:35:51 not many changes lately, sadly 16:35:52 dl: thanks. now to queue up 1000 of them so i can take a break for a few years. 16:36:06
Xach: lol! 16:36:50 blumbri [~blumbri@c-67-181-176-186.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:15 -!- Cloud_ [~cbolano@189.247.194.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:37:17 *dl* still likes your Erik Naggum archive the best (but that's only because Erik was so awesome! RIP) 16:37:40 lisptips is cool! 16:37:42 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:38:13 -!- gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:38:49 I tried tumblr because it was the first thing I could think of for a lightweight blog, but it has a number of unknown-to-me tools that will be very useful for writing a lot of material and posting one per day automatically. (If it sucked, I was going to try soup next...) 16:39:14 jsn [~user@c-98-225-158-149.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:15 A+++ would blog again 16:39:15 Simple Offline Usenet Protocol... 16:39:37 *stassats* found a draft for one slime tip 16:39:43 Xach: I'd recommend a different font for code samples 16:39:49 look ma, grandpa does not know how to blog 16:40:17 looks like i'd have to open a blog too after all 16:40:23 p_l|backup: what font does it look like to you? 16:40:26 story of my life, when I was a nerd it was uncool, now everyone is a nerd and I don't yet have facebook 16:40:38 Cloud_ [~cbolano@189.247.100.41] has joined #lisp 16:40:49 Xach, what's this presumably-newer definition of SOUP? 16:40:51 p_l|backup: take a screenshot, actually, if you'd like to influence my decision to put any energy into it... 16:40:55 ChibaPet: soup.io 16:41:05 ah 16:41:05 -!- Cloud__ [~cbolano@189.139.219.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:41:05 -!- fr31s [~user@117.Red-79-154-81.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:41:23 Xach: I'm going to do some extra tests 16:41:45 p_l|backup: I ask for a screenshot because it looks fine to me, and just knowing the name of the font you see won't help me understand how ugly it might appear to others. 16:41:45 frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 16:41:48 will provide screenshots (and maybe CSS snippets) for testing 16:42:11 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-110-42.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Quit: bye] 16:42:15 It's no 7x14 but it is acceptable. 16:42:51 sure. First I need to test it on some more machines - I had "Monaco" selected for "fixed", and for some reason it renders badly, especially bolded. So I'm going to test on few machines 16:43:04 /me tried lots of programming fonts, and it kind of depends on a screen. On 1200x1024 and lower, best one is 8x16 or 9x15 old style X fixed font. On >1600x1200, single line fonts are just too thin, so its anti-aliased Consolas on those 16:44:12 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:45:02 -!- markskil1eck is now known as markskilbeck 16:45:09 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@host86-136-238-48.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 16:45:09 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 16:47:45 cheezus [~Adium@173-164-132-22-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:21
Xach: I'm also seeing a monaco font and would (personally) prefer more of a typewriter style font: It doesn't bother me that much though... :) 16:49:28 BlankVerse [~pankajm@103.246.106.35] has joined #lisp 16:49:36
Xach: The CSS seems to be requesting the monaco font... 16:49:53 SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 16:50:31
... as long as my machine can render the characters, I'll keep reading! :) 16:52:29 -!- cheezus [~Adium@173-164-132-22-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:53:38 lisptips is nice indeed. i totally forgot slot-unbound existed, though i had used it in the past 16:54:43 when i write (readably) and read forms from a file, can i somehow specify relative to which package the reading/writing should occur? 16:55:23 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:55:31 madnificent: that is determined at read-time by the value of *package*. the forms would have to affect that variable at read-time. 16:55:54 that makes sense, is the same true for writing? 16:56:11 the value of *package* affects whether forms written readably have a prefix. 16:56:25 if the symbol's home package matches *package*, no prefix is printed. 16:56:26 great! thanks! 16:56:38 you can unconditionally print prefixes on symbols by binding *package* to the keyword package when writing them. 16:57:01 Xach is like an oracle :) 16:57:07 a lisptip-emitting oracle 16:57:18 ! word ! 16:57:28 *Xach* can't wait to cash in on the tip-a-day CL calendar 16:57:32 -!- frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:57:40 Xach: 'zine time! 16:58:12 if lisptips stays as nice as the past two posts, then i'll keep checking it out. 16:58:36 madnificent: some will be shorter, some will be longer, some will be more or less obvious to the experienced lisper. i'll try to keep it interesting. 16:58:45 http://slime-tips.tumblr.com/ here you go 16:59:25 stassats: sweet! 17:00:01 omg. slime-export-class 17:00:15 stassats: now if everyone in this channel starts maintaining something like that, i could be browsing the web for fun lisp stuff all day! :D 17:00:30 ups, forgot to add that it's in slime-package-fu contrib 17:01:06 lolsuper_ [~super_@pool-173-65-194-148.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:06 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@pool-173-65-194-148.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:01:06 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 17:01:08 (or slime-fancy) 17:01:38 Xach: as it's dayly, i think i prefer the shorter ones over the longer ones, but there's little to tell in just two posts :) regardless, i love it so far! 17:02:08 stassats: also, that's really really really handy. it's somewhat sad that it won't integrate with org-babel, yet still 17:02:25 antifuchs: but it's older than a year! 17:02:31 -!- am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:03:54 stassats: not everybody reads through the ChangeLog (-: 17:04:13 *antifuchs* subscribes to slime-tips 17:04:21 *Xach* too 17:04:39 FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 17:05:39 frozencemetery [~Adium@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 17:05:42 why my sbcl on emacs always said "no thread support in this instance" ? 17:05:47 *madnificent* subscribes to both using rss for both 17:05:49 while the ccl worked well ? 17:06:03 morphism: you have to build it with thread support. 17:06:07 and about symbols style, it automatically detects which one to use if already present symbols are consistent. 17:06:17 morphism: are you using SBCL with thread support? which OS? 17:07:42 *akovalenko* considers patching SLIME to ask for symbol conflict resolution in minibuffer (maybe all interaction with interactive restarts should go there instead of REPL buffer) 17:08:00 akovalenko: michelw had something like that 17:08:01 normally sbcl is with thread support on when the platform is able to 17:08:06 akovalenko: that is a wishlist of mine from long ago 17:08:25 at least afaik 17:08:38 i'll try to find it and maybe integrate into slime 17:08:48 you can enable it explicitly....tho 17:09:10 wbooze: I maintain an experimental "Windows edition" of SBCL that one can use on Windows to get thread support 17:09:10 and recompile.... 17:09:23 oh 17:09:53 http://lists.common-lisp.net/pipermail/slime-devel/2008-August/015283.html 17:09:58 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:10:12 2006! 17:10:21 2008! 17:10:30 windows has posix ? 17:10:37 stassats: looks like `slime-export-symbol-at-point' is still borken w/r/t `slime-goto-next-export-clause' :( 17:10:37 *Xach* will wait for 2016 for it to be added 17:10:41 oh, your post, well, 2008 isn't much better 17:10:43 wbooze: as of other platforms, there probably *are* platforms where thread support is too experimental to be enabled by default, yet useful enough 17:10:58 ah ok 17:11:00 Xach, I just use the window binary version downloaded 17:11:08 it's on for linux as default i know.... 17:11:16 mon_key: how? 17:11:18 akovalenko, you mean there is another version ? I'm on window 7 17:11:31 stassats: http://lists.common-lisp.net/pipermail/slime-devel/2010-November/017858.html 17:11:39 morphism: consider http://github.com/akovalenko/sbcl-win32-threads/wiki 17:11:41 that's all, don't know about windows, tho i'd assume it should be on for it too, since windows even has better thread support or so..... 17:12:15 morphism: IIRC, it's even mentioned at sbcl.org now :) 17:12:30 mon_key: i'll look into it 17:12:36 wbooze: wasn't sbcl threading sometething not-that-stable on windows? 17:13:02 madnificent: on the mainline SBCL, there are no threading on windows (even as a build-time option) 17:13:09 erm, you ask me what now.....really don't know 17:13:15 stassats: Thanks. Its an easy fix and likely not to break anything. 17:13:21 i just used a windows version once...and it worked so far.... 17:13:37 did never realize if it had support for threads then.... 17:13:39 madnificent: and if you have problem with "special edition", please report them (github issue tracker is handy) 17:14:26 and on windows i mainly used clisp i think.... 17:14:45 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@103.246.106.35] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:14:46 akovalenko: sorry, i don't use/own a windows box :) 17:15:05 yes, i got one in a vm i think.... 17:15:07 cheezus [~Adium@173-164-132-22-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:19 but well virtualbox is not installed right now in slack..... 17:15:23 on my* 17:15:45 *akovalenko* uses Wine 17:15:57 milanj [~milanj_@109-92-111-151.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 17:17:15 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-166-105.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:18:12 akovalenko, so you rebuilt it for thread support on w32 ? 17:18:42 morphism: Dmitry Kalyanov and I *patched* it for thread support and some other I/O-related stuff 17:18:56 morphism: it's more like a friendly fork, not a rebuild 17:19:12 -!- kleppari_ [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:19:44 wasn't nikodemus going to do some lifting on threading for windows on sbcl 17:19:47 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 17:19:58 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:20:02 lbc [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 17:20:30 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-109-104.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:42 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:43 madnificent: nikodemus works on cross-platform threading improvements in general (if you mean his recent fundraising campaign) 17:22:37 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:22:56 akovalenko: yes, that was what i meant. i didn't check the results for windows, as i don't use that. though now i'm curious, what will the results for windows users be? 17:24:34 madnificent: we'll see. anyway, what nikodemus is working on is unlikely to affect threading *presence* (or absence) on Windows 17:24:47 concave [~concave@c-24-118-48-38.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:58 ah ok, very well 17:25:02 -!- frozencemetery [~Adium@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has left #lisp 17:28:01 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:28:52 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 17:29:14 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:30:08 -!- ngz [~user@80.105.193.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:31:16 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-140-90.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 17:33:41 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 17:34:23 pitlimit [~pitlimit@unaffiliated/pitlimit] has joined #lisp 17:34:52 Can anyone tell me how to use a shortcut to use the last command in CCL? 17:34:53 morphism: you might try my zipped standalone sbcl*.exe as well (its REPL extensions make it easier to fire up SLIME on a fresh machine) 17:35:04 in a shell, you simply hit the up arrow - this does not work with CCL 17:35:11 -!- srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:35:13 pitlimit: #.+ ;; portable 17:35:25 what is that akovalenko 17:35:50 pitlimit: #. is a read-time evaluation, and + is a standard special variable holding the last form evaluated 17:36:07 well. that just ... is sucky. 17:36:08 pitlimit: ++ and +++ left as an exercise (lookup clhs if you want) 17:36:19 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:36:24 and unusable imho 17:36:35 pitlimit: thank you for your opinion, it's very encouraging 17:36:38 :) 17:36:57 pitlimit: If you don't want to use emacs, I think you can use rlwrap or linedit. 17:36:59 i appreciate your answer, i just don't get why it's not simpler 17:37:01 Not sure about linedit. 17:37:22 linedit says it only works for sbcl. 17:37:33 Still? I thought someone was going to update it for ccl. 17:37:45 *Xach* tries to remember who 17:37:53 I mean, if you think about it, the pound key is used with your left hand and the period is used with your right - they are nowhere near each other. plus the # requires a shift as does the +, which again is used by the right hand but nowhere near the other key 17:37:54 *akovalenko* wonders, then, what was the point of depending on osicat 17:38:12 I guess cut and paste will be my friend here 17:38:13 pitlimit: I suspect most of the energy for ccl usability is going in to either their editor or slime 17:38:25 Vivitron: but that is clearly a probably most used command 17:38:29 oops 17:38:42 that is clearly something that is very used 17:38:53 What is very used? 17:39:03 pitlimit: and if you think about it, #. opens some interesting possibilities like (pprint #.+) or (eq #.+ #.++) or more 17:39:07 Xach coders often want to hit the up arrow to repeat a command 17:39:12 in CCL I'm being told I need #.+ 17:39:26 pitlimit: Lisp coders often use M-p for that. 17:39:37 Yes akovalenko 17:39:37 pitlimit: using the plain repl in a terminal is not very common. 17:39:44 I see. 17:39:46 pitlimit: no, you'd probaly find something more specific. IIRC normal up-arrow was working on CCL when I tried it 17:39:48 pitlimit: most peopl don't use raw terminal, but use SLIME, which supports up-arrow 17:39:49 pitlimit: coders don't use the interface with which you're hobbling yourself. 17:40:05 pkhuong: I was told this is best to start with 17:40:12 It's easy to use supposedly 17:40:21 pitlimit: Not good advice. 17:40:24 thank you akovalenko 17:40:26 really? 17:40:29 Really. 17:40:33 Ugh well too late 17:40:43 thanks for letting me know the error of my ways, though i don't have time to correct it 17:40:44 Yes, a whole day wasted! 17:40:48 :) 17:40:49 pitlimit: really. Yet, SLIME is easier (at least after you set up your Emacs) 17:41:53 and now you even have tips! 17:42:05 okay well i shall shut up now that i've decided to stick with CCL 17:42:08 *stassats* already decided on what to write tomorrow 17:42:10 if I'm going to choose a crappy environment, can't complain about it 17:42:32 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #lisp 17:42:40 pitlimit: ccl is great. i don't think many people use it without attaching something to it. 17:42:45 pitlimit: *, **, *** could be useful to you as well, * is similarish to #.+ 17:43:00 pitlimit: I really advise you to do s/crappy environment/wonderful stuff/ when you try to get help 17:43:07 hey! 17:43:08 * works! 17:43:19 ** and *** give older lines 17:43:21 as does ***! Thanks! 17:43:24 stassats: You can queue up tips to publish automatically 17:43:24 Vivitron: hah, I hadn't considered #.+ 17:43:25 that's fun (: 17:43:27 fantastic! 17:43:27 :) 17:43:45 Xach: i know, but that's too much for one day! 17:44:03 (though i didn't write today's tip today) 17:44:09 ah 17:44:21 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:44:28 -!- cheezus [~Adium@173-164-132-22-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:44:39 antifuchs: thats akavalenko's trick:) 17:44:49 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:44:52 -!- FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:45:00 superflit_ [~superflit@71-33-190-99.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:04 as of #.+++.. vs. ***.., the first one re-evaluates, the second one return an older value 17:45:14 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:49 and /, //, /// get old multiple-valued results as lists 17:45:54 um.... one last q Vivitron ? How do I kill a command - I have an infinite loop and it keeps running.... 17:45:54 Xach: can you have collaborators on Lisp tips? I'm pretty sure akovalenko would make a good tip source (-: 17:46:06 C-c, naturally 17:46:17 hm 17:46:21 oh my euclid programmed in greek 17:46:22 lol 17:46:30 antifuchs: Not sure. I already saved that as a draft to write up, with credit... 17:46:30 stassats: it's running something else 17:46:45 you mean control c? 17:46:48 what is running what? 17:46:55 Xach: oh, well then (: 17:46:55 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-208-223-146.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:46:56 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 17:47:03 pitlimit: yes 17:47:04 oh I asked how do you kill a command in ccl if it's stuck in an infinite loop 17:47:12 Xach: but I'm sure he has more tips hidden away (-: 17:47:14 antifuchs: Xach already encouraged third-party TIP e-mailing, but when I think of it, I'm not always sure whether a concrete tip is within his "genre" 17:47:18 and i answered 17:47:22 C-c? 17:47:29 as in capital c dash lower case c? 17:47:31 ctrl c. 17:47:32 Concrete tip? 17:47:38 pitlimit: under SLIME, I do C-c C-c (CTRL-C CTRL-C) 17:47:56 C-c is an emacsism for control c 17:47:57 hm not working 17:48:05 *whether the idea makes a good TIP that is neither boring for experts nor bad for newbies 17:48:09 pitlimit: that's literally what i said, but that's not how you type it 17:48:12 also known as "Control Sea", first documented use in interrupting Red Sea 17:49:07 stassats: it doesn't work ctrl-c 17:49:20 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.39] has joined #lisp 17:49:24 too bad 17:49:30 *akovalenko* frequently misuses "concrete" instead of "some specific" (bad English instance) 17:49:33 pitlimit: does it do anything? it's working for me in ccl in a terminal. try hitting enter to make sure your really in the loop 17:49:50 pitlimit: C-c throws me into the debugger, then :pop gets me back to the top level 17:50:03 it's still in the loop 17:50:04 i'm on a mac 17:50:09 i tried both cmd-c and ctrl -c 17:50:29 to be clear, I'm in the screen titled "listener" 17:50:29 akovalenko: specific tips are in scope 17:50:36 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:50:36 ah, I am not on a mac 17:50:39 Xach: I guess what I'm trying to say is, we could all collaborate on this stuff unless you want the glory to yourself (-; 17:50:52 on the bottom, when I type ctrl-c it says "C-c" ont he bottom 17:50:55 but yet continues to run 17:51:14 Ah, I thought you were using ccl in a terminal, not the listener. 17:51:17 pitlimit: are you still using plain terminal ? or emacs+slime? 17:51:19 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-064-185-203.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:26 akovalenko: I'm using the ccl listener 17:51:29 *Xach* has not tried the CCL IDE 17:51:31 pitlimit: C-c C-c (double) may be better 17:51:38 tried that too 17:51:39 *p_l|backup* has a possible chance to bring some new people to lisp an other HLLs :) 17:51:45 pitlimit: so you're using the cocoa-based ide. try command-, (or look in the Lisp menu for "Interrupt") 17:51:46 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:52 thank you rme 17:52:02 antifuchs: Email away! 17:52:14 pitlimit: or maybe (just maybe) there is some *documentation* for the IDE 17:52:21 rme thank you 17:52:22 it's there 17:52:42 ah, I suspect the cocoa idea is much nice than a plane shell:) if you decide you don't like it later emacs+slime is excellent 17:52:48 that's kind of odd, linedit's readme says it works in ccl, and then it doesn't. 17:52:53 rme: it did not work, so it leads me to think there's something wrong 17:53:03 and that the commands are right 17:53:12 I just killed the screen with my nice little x button :) 17:53:23 pitlimit: meta-p and meta-n will go through your command history. you probably type that as option-n and option-p. 17:53:25 ben_m [~Ben@chello080108155179.8.12.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 17:53:59 what is meta :( 17:54:11 aleron [~brad@61.sub-166-248-65.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 17:54:12 oconnore [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:17 ohhhh 17:54:18 it's emacsish for ..either Option or Alt 17:54:20 :) thanks rme!!!! 17:54:29 it's an old modifier key, similar to option or alt or command 17:54:40 pitlimit: rme works on ccl, he is a friendly and helpful fellow 17:54:41 however, 17:54:42 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:54:42 sometimes it's Alt that's bound to it, sometimes it's Command. 17:54:43 i get: Error: Unbound variable: META-P 17:55:00 it's ok i can cut and paste 17:55:05 i just need it to be good enough to use 17:55:32 *rme* boggles 17:55:35 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:37 :) 17:55:37 pitlimit: are you typing Meta-p in listener? (instead of pressing Option+p) 17:55:45 akovalenko: I did option p 17:55:51 but it converted it to type meta-p in the listener 17:55:56 automatically 17:56:24 pavelludiq [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has joined #lisp 17:57:14 kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-110-42.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 17:57:46 Well, I don't know what to say to that. 17:57:55 say nothing :) 17:58:00 i have threee programs to write and i am done 17:58:04 i just need it to work is all :) 17:58:08 Noob question here: Ignoring the effects of variable capture and compiletime vs. runtime differences, couldn't one duplicate the functionality of macros simply by passing unevaluated lists to a function and funcalling as needed? 17:58:24 thanks for your tip earlier, rme - much appreciated 17:58:27 loderunner: no. 17:58:47 pkhuong: what I am missing then? 17:58:49 if they have no free variables 17:59:14 ^ this. Expressions must be evaluated in the right lexical environment. 17:59:17 loderunner: 1) you can't funcall a list at all, until you compile it (that may be done with coerce for lambda lists...) 17:59:35 akovalenko, it worked. Thanks 17:59:39 antifuchs: i added a "submit a tip" option 17:59:45 *well, (coerce ... 'function) is not guaranteed to compile, but it gives you a function at least 17:59:49 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba_@141.212.58.53] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:00:14 pkhuong: so there are important lexical differences beyond variable capture? 18:00:38 loderunner: funcall away on (+ x 5). 18:01:04 morphism: you may also try my zipped *.exe standalone binaries (bootstrapping Quicklisp and setting up SLIME on a fresh box is simplified there, with new :qload and :qslime and :qapropos REPL commands) 18:01:47 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-76-82.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 18:01:49 Xach: yayyy 18:02:09 antifuchs: that winds up in a moderation queue, apparently. 18:02:14 *Xach* waits for the tips to roll in 18:03:34 now, how do you capitalize on that? 18:04:05 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:04:07 Subscription screencasts 18:04:38 I don't understand how lexical issues matter at all if you're gensyming everything (as some examples show) to avoid bugs. 18:04:50 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:52 loderunner: how do you funcall (+ x 5)? 18:05:58 pkhuong: well, this kind of funcall is called EVAL. now if we disregard variable capture etc., and *also* disregard efficiency... 18:06:13 akovalenko: eval doesn't take a lexical environment. 18:06:20 pkhuong: I am on day 6 of Lisp, IIRC funcall is of the form funcall #'(function arguments), useful on function objects which I take to mean objects that were previously treated as data, now being treated as code. 18:06:26 (let ((form '(+ x 5))) (funcall (compile nil `(lambda (x) ,form)) 10)) 18:06:40 so funcall #'(+ x 5), but that could be utterly wrong 18:06:45 pkhuong: but that's how I understood "without variable capture" part (it's somewhat vague as it is) 18:06:52 -!- xan_ [~xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:06:59 stassats: ah, but that form comes from (let ((x [...])) (lossy-fexpr (+ x 5)). 18:06:59 loderunner: it *is* utterly wrong 18:07:16 mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 18:07:16 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has quit [Changing host] 18:07:16 mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has joined #lisp 18:08:04 pkhuong: thankfully, SBCL has sb-int:eval-in-lexenv, so if we're really into this kind of abuse... 18:08:25 ah ok, just checked, it can't be a list, so it's (funcall #'+ x 5) 18:08:51 loderunner: but you can't know the value of the variable named X. You only have access to the the symbol X. 18:09:16 akovalenko: but we don't have grab-runtime-lexenv. 18:09:40 what about &environemt? 18:09:54 -!- dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:09:55 pkhuong: but you can return a function of x and funcall it, no? 18:09:56 stassats: that's for macros, and it doesn't grab the runtime environment. 18:10:39 loderunner: how do you know whether a function or a list is needed? 18:10:40 loderunner: yep, you can return a function of x. That's what you are supposed to do instead of list-hacking 18:10:43 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 18:11:40 Would method specializations of (eq instance) get garbage collected when the instance that they specialize on is or leak over time? 18:11:44 -!- pitlimit [~pitlimit@unaffiliated/pitlimit] has quit [Quit: pitlimit] 18:11:47 http://repl.it/#:languages 18:12:07 loderunner: and if you're going to reinvent "fexprs" as a supposedly low-level substrate for macros, it's not going to work 18:12:09 pkhuong: I assume the calling scope knows how to use the thing it's calling. I'm not saying this is the prettiest thing, syntax-wise, but I'm interested in understanding the underlying reasons for things, not a lack of syntactic sugar 18:12:10 sshirokov: SBCL will leak. 18:12:19 hi 18:12:25 pkhuong: Thanks. 18:12:37 loderunner: but only the macro can know how it'll use the expression. 18:12:38 Curiously, is that a "problem" or "correct"? 18:13:07 sshirokov: I consider it an issue, but, IIRC overspecification in AMOP makes this hard to fix. 18:13:48 pkhuong: so you pass a flag telling the calling scope what the thing it returned actually is. Again, this is hypothetical/theoretical, not practical. Syntactic sugar exists for macros but not macro-like functions and I'm trying to understand if there's an important reason for this, beyond variable capture and performance 18:14:15 loderunner: I don't understand how the macro like functions you describe would work. 18:14:25 what's a macro-like function? which syntactic sugar exists for them? 18:14:55 *akovalenko* thinks of fexprs again. don't do that, people. 18:15:00 loderunner: I think you want to take a look at fexprs and Kernel (which has fexprs, but also lexical scope). 18:15:16 pkhuong: Attempting to address your objection that only the macro can know what it's returning, you simply return a list consisting with the actual return value and a tag for the return value 18:15:18 loderunner: we don't have those because smart people decided fexprs were too hairy. 18:15:27 loderunner: I don't follow. 18:16:23 when was that ? 18:16:29 frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 18:16:29 1970 ? 18:16:46 that they decided i mean..... 18:16:51 pkhuong: Nor I re: the things you just mentioned. What is the advantage of executing something in-function vs. in the calling scope (ignoring variable capture)? Is your objection related to side-effects? 18:17:36 closures exist without macros, I do know that... 18:17:38 no. My objection is that I don't see how your scheme can handle something as simple as evaluating an expression that contains (+ x 5). 18:17:51 -!- benny [~benny@i577A25A1.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:17:58 cheezus [~Adium@173-164-132-22-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:08 where X is free, and bound outside the macro's arguments. 18:18:39 benny [~benny@i577A1D6B.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:18:44 -!- cheezus [~Adium@173-164-132-22-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:18:44 wbooze: IIRC, newlisp reinvented (or revived) some fexpr-like stuff recently 18:18:54 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #lisp 18:19:23 you can pass (lambda (x) (+ x 5)), but then your code will be ugly and full of lambdas (like scheme) 18:19:35 pkhuong: if the macrolike function can't know what x is, but the calling scope does (or will), then the macrolike function returns a function of x. Possibly a very long function with conditionals depending on what x turns out to be. The syntax abstraction remains the same, you lose variable capture (for better or worse) and it's a runtime thing instead of compile time. I'm struggling to envision the other differences. 18:19:40 whoops: so if anyone needs reassurance that they are still a bad idea, newlisp is the right place to look at 18:20:06 loderunner: how will the code that uses the "macrolike function" know how to use the returned value? 18:20:21 -!- Cloud_ is now known as cesarbp 18:20:30 well, can easily see that sbcl consume more memory than ccl in the same app, but use less cpu usage . 18:21:11 pkhuong: Well, let's say it simply executes it. It always returns a function, and so the calling value executes it with argument x. 18:21:15 sbcl is just larger by itself 18:21:15 so it's caching more ? 18:21:37 and it inlines more aggressively 18:21:44 morphism: as of memory usage, are you comparing working sets as reported by some Windows tool? 18:22:01 no 18:22:09 I compare it myself , by Task Manager 18:22:10 :D 18:22:20 morphism: working sets or virtual memory? 18:22:26 -!- topeak [~topeak@118.186.129.140] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:22:27 loderunner: how does that deal with lazy evaluation (e.g. IF)? How can the calling code know which arguments to pass to the returned value? 18:23:03 akovalenko, working set 18:23:16 I haven't looked at virtual memory t 18:23:30 but positively less CPU usage made me happy 18:23:34 :) 18:23:37 pkhuong: If you passed the macrofunction an expression with x y and z in it, you have to pass the returned function the same number and order of parameters 18:24:11 loderunner: But x, y and z are very deep in the argument. 18:25:20 same src with bordeaux thread, but less than around 20 % CPU usage when app get more things to update ( w/ CCL it always tick to around 100 % ). I haven't done any multithreading optimization in my app yet. =.= 18:25:21 morphism: well then, initial SBCL usage may be high, but it doesn't tell very much on how a long-living real application will behave 18:26:01 akovalenko, maybe I will know soon, when I let my bot run for nights 18:26:06 *akovalenko* also took care that mapped runtime image is properly shared between many SBCL instances on windows.. 18:26:23 pkhuong: Hmm. so your point is you might want to call the macrofunction on something without ever caring about what variables are in that list and where? 18:26:55 akovalenko, you mean same image shared for multi instance sbcl ? 18:26:57 loderunner: no, my point is that I don't understand how you can evaluate expressions deep in the arguments. 18:27:17 morphism: I have a remarkably good experience with SBCL some month ago in a similar setting (in-house app that runs for weeks, and is not supposed to fail) 18:27:35 srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:01 morphism: the same sbcl.core, yes (the thing you get from (save-lisp-and-die)) 18:28:29 why would you even care about memory? 18:28:30 pkhuong: you don't evaluate them, you integrate them into the returned function. Oh... maybe the problem there is if you need partial evaluation? 18:28:52 i can even run CL on my phone nowadays 18:29:04 stassats: people care about memory dynamics, because they expect leaks to accumulate and explode over time 18:29:06 loderunner: *how* do you integrate them so that they're evaluated in the right environment? 18:29:10 which phone is that ? 18:29:26 android-phone 18:29:27 akovalenko, did it load its image to memory at start ? 18:29:50 akovalenko: i meant more about the memory taken by the runtime 18:29:53 morphism: in my version, it maps image, not loads (as in CreateFileMapping+MapViewOfFile) 18:30:11 sellout- [~Adium@ip-64-134-236-37.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:23 morphism: SBCL on Unix normally mmap()'s its image, too 18:30:49 -!- ben_m [~Ben@chello080108155179.8.12.vie.surfer.at] has left #lisp 18:31:00 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:31:02 akovalenko, on Linux/unix , if you say mmap(), then I may understand, but on window, I don't 18:31:23 cheezus [~Adium@173-164-132-22-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:47 pkhuong: The returned function can have conditionals that create their own sub-environments if the calling environment isn't desirable. The function object returned by the macrofunction has access to the calling scope right? That's how lambda based closures work. 18:31:53 morphism: okay. what I do on Windows is mmap-alike, what mainline SBCL does on Unix is mmap(), what mainline SBCL does on Windows is open-and-read-everything. 18:32:02 loderunner: no, that's not how lexical scoping works. 18:32:37 That's probably my disconnect, then 18:33:02 I've never done closures before, thought I kinda grasped the gist 18:33:42 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:34:27 -!- sellout- [~Adium@ip-64-134-236-37.public.wayport.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:34:44 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:35:08 Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:35:18 pitlimit [~pitlimit@dyn-209-2-226-4.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 18:35:18 -!- pitlimit [~pitlimit@dyn-209-2-226-4.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Changing host] 18:35:18 pitlimit [~pitlimit@unaffiliated/pitlimit] has joined #lisp 18:35:43 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:48 katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-199-162.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:35:48 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-199-162.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 18:35:48 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 18:36:33 -!- pitlimit [~pitlimit@unaffiliated/pitlimit] has left #lisp 18:37:42 -!- cheezus [~Adium@173-164-132-22-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:38:35 -!- lbc [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:38:42 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:39:01 sellout- [~Adium@ip-64-134-236-37.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:29 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:09 pkhuong: think I'm almost there... in your (+ x 5) example, where is x defined/not defined that it causes such a problem? 18:42:12 *akovalenko* wonders if anyone uses Win2k here (so long I kept SBCL/windows Win2k-compatible, but maybe it belongs to retrocomputing domain) 18:42:27 loderunner: around the macro. 18:42:30 windows 2k came out like 15 years ago 18:42:41 so, pretty recently. 18:42:43 Xach: and Common Lisp was standardized?.. 18:43:04 Xach: oh, I see the point (that's my view, too :) 18:43:50 Xach: I like how Lisp is slow and unoptimized for bit rot 18:43:57 can anybody explain http://raganwald.posterous.com/another-meta-joke to me (just read that one on reddit, and I do not really get it, but maybe I am missing something because my english is not good enough) 18:44:16 pkhuong: meaning the caller of the macro? but if the caller knows what is x, or will know... 18:44:26 schoppenhauer: it does not make a lick of sense even to a native english speaker. 18:44:44 akovalenko: I was looking at the clx source and saw file headers from 1987, that put a smile on my face 18:44:44 schoppenhauer: it is crazier than a penguin in beaumont 18:45:01 pkhuong: or x is defined in the interaction between macro and caller, hence the problem of using a function instead? 18:45:06 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:45:12 schoppenhauer: it's an unfunny recursive joke. 18:45:28 pkhuong: where is the recursion? 18:45:48 akovalenko: ? 18:45:53 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:58 loderunner: no, the caller has access to X. If you wish that the caller passes the value of X to the returned value, then the question is how do the callers know which values to pass and in what order? 18:46:02 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:46:32 schoppenhauer: "It's the story that tells itself [itself links back to the post]" 18:46:46 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:20 -!- paul0 [~paul0@200.146.126.207.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:48:29 Posterdati: what is "?"? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bit_rot 18:48:42 paul0 [~paul0@187.112.90.224] has joined #lisp 18:48:45 erm erm, where is the joke ? 18:48:46 lol 18:48:58 can i have a joint too ? 18:48:59 lol 18:49:32 pkhuong: is that all? I thought maybe 1959 has some meaning. 18:49:36 pkhuong: They pass them to the returned function in the same order that they passed them to the macrofunction. I am assuming that the caller knows exactly what it's calling the macro on (which could be the key difference, though it sounded like you denied this before.) If the caller passed in (+ a ( + b c) d) then you have a static ruleset for passing in those same things to the returned function, say left to right by layer 18:49:36 s => (returned-func a d b c) 18:50:32 loderunner: you can't know whether a symbol will be used as a value, a function, a macro or nothing at all without cooperation with the expansion. 18:51:26 what's the talk about actually ? 18:51:43 macros, closures ? 18:51:47 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:52:03 scope, lifetime ? global, local ? dynamic, static ? 18:52:09 wbooze: "what if we had fexprs in the language" 18:52:13 ah 18:52:41 functional expressions ? 18:53:13 f(a+b) = f(a) + f(b) ? 18:53:18 they're called "macro-like function for runtime" here 18:53:25 -!- pavelludiq [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:53:33 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:45 wbooze: as in, let a function take a form or forms and work on them in runtime 18:54:09 wbooze: pkhuong is explaining why it's not very useful 18:54:27 pkhuong: hmm. is there no way for the returned function to have access to the caller's environment? I may not fully grasp all implications of first class functions and lexical scoping, but IIRC an inner function has access to the outer function's symbols. Is there no way to take the returned function object and translate/invoke it as if it were a lambda defined in the caller's scope? 18:54:46 someone making his ph.d was actually claiming i think that it is possible and put it into scheme or so 18:54:55 hmmm 18:55:00 loderunner: no, CL does not offer such a way to pervert lexical scoping. 18:55:11 I hear python does. 18:55:19 -!- housel [~user@ip70-187-191-250.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:55:40 pkhuong: ok, that's my disconnect then. I was treating the data==code thing too literally. 18:56:14 *akovalenko* thinks we must use python-the-language, lol-as-in-lauphing, PCL-the-book etc. to disambiguate things :( 18:56:42 penryu [~tanuki@unaffiliated/penryu] has joined #lisp 18:57:18 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:57:38 context helps 18:57:39 cheezus [~Adium@75-144-26-36-sfba-ca.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:21 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:13 pkhuong: So symbols are defined in a context and it's impossible to pass those symbols to another context and allow that context to use them literally. That would be something akin to dynamic scope. 18:59:22 right. 18:59:29 pkhuong: many thanks, that helps tremendously 18:59:34 loderunner: you can define *parameters* with defparameter, probably that is what you want 18:59:58 loderunner: using #'let, they can be set. 19:00:10 That's why fexprs reify the lexical context and pass it to something like eval. 19:00:28 schoppenhauer: this is all an intellectual exercise to help me understand the powers and purposes of macros beyond mere performance 19:00:44 performance? 19:01:02 Macros are expanded at compile time, a function equivalent would not be. 19:01:08 Xach: I think that's a lambda tarpit exercise in which practical convenience is ignored. 19:01:15 *..beyond their most discommended use :) 19:01:29 unless inlined, I suppose 19:01:32 human performance? 19:01:40 human performance i could see 19:01:42 no, numeric 19:01:50 am I missing something else vital here? 19:01:54 Performance Enhancing Code 19:01:58 hello, sorry for a slightly out of band question; looking for a free compiler to generate windows executables - GNU Clisp is my first choice, are there better alternatives? 19:02:09 hm. performance. there are compiler macros which can be used for local optimizations. but in general, macros are there for convenience. 19:02:10 loderunner: macros are not commonly used for numeric performance. 19:02:19 -!- jlaire [~jlaire@80-248-244-31.cust.suomicom.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:02:20 loderunner: simply put, we don't normally use macros for performance (compile-macros and inlined functions, yes) 19:02:29 BrokenCog: sbcl, clozure cl can also do it. 19:02:39 macros are for expressivity ? 19:03:00 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:03:01 Xach: any easy to state pros/cons? 19:03:14 BrokenCog: sbcl is still experimental unter windows 19:03:31 BrokenCog: CLISP bytecoded and favoring built-in-function-only coding style 19:03:34 BrokenCog: the code generated by clozure cl is usually faster, but the binaries are bigger. 19:03:43 Xach: I'll be doing something rather uncommon then. Macros are ideal for certain types of performance enhancement. 19:03:47 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:58 loderunner: they are? 19:04:05 *Xach* learns something new every day 19:04:06 loderunner: there are "compiler-macros", which are for this 19:04:07 BrokenCog: and the code generated by SBCL is usually faster than CCL's, but binaries are even more big 19:04:23 loderunner: CLHS define-compiler-macro 19:04:29 and then there's ECL 19:04:32 BrokenCog: I don't have anything terse or helpful in that regard. What do you want to do with a windows lisp executable? 19:04:43 okay - thanks. GNU Clips compiles to byte code or binary? if CLISP builds bytecode, does it require the interpreter on the target machine? 19:04:57 BrokenCog: clisp lumps the vm into the binary. 19:05:05 BrokenCog: as do other CLs 19:05:14 I have a small file parser I'd like to share with a couple colleuges ... they don't have lisp interpreter/compilers installed. 19:05:21 so you got the rails and the lock 19:05:22 lol 19:05:23 pavelludiq [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has joined #lisp 19:05:42 BrokenCog: clisp can make you a single file to send along. 19:05:50 talking ~40 meg, ~15-20 meg, ~5 meg runtimes for sbcl/ccl/clisp in my experience. Clisp took ~5 times as long iirc running cl-ppcre regexes over some files for me 19:05:50 BrokenCog: ok, sounds like clisp should do the job well enough 19:05:57 BrokenCog: it seems that any of the above are ok for you 19:06:22 BrokenCog: clisp creates a small binary, which should be fast enough for a little parser 19:06:28 alright ... I"ll try CLISP as i have it ... 19:06:33 I used them on linux though 19:06:36 thanks again all. 19:06:55 Xach: I'm doing some highly modular AI that will be randomly combining a crapload of routines. The modularity comes at a price. If I could combine two pieces together instead of calling them separately, would be quite a bit cheaper. So I write higher-efficiency functions representing common combinations, and a macro quietly replaces them whenever that particular sub-chain of functions emerges. 19:06:58 wbooze: were you saying I had the lock? [release] 19:07:19 schoppenhauer: haven't read about compiler macros yet, will look into that 19:07:20 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:07:32 loderunner: so you are doing something like a heuristical jit-compiler? 19:07:34 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 19:08:02 schoppenhauer: nah, just taking over Wall street ;-) 19:08:38 loderunner: Do you have an example of something like that in action in code? 19:08:50 loderunner: http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/09/29/occupy-wall-street-12-days-and-little-sign-of-slowing-down/ <--? 19:08:52 jlaire [~jlaire@80-248-244-31.cust.suomicom.fi] has joined #lisp 19:08:54 *scnr* 19:09:17 Xach: No, I am in the extremely idealistic noob stage still. Knew nothing of lisp two weeks ago. 19:09:53 *wbooze* giggles 19:10:21 I'll let you know how it turns out though 19:10:25 beginnerMan [5ac58a4e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.90.197.138.78] has joined #lisp 19:10:47 Will finance the fuck out of open source Lisp if it works. Maybe Arc. 19:11:07 finance the fuck out! 19:11:19 damn straight! 19:11:29 hey guys, common lisp, and others such as scheme has a vastly different syntax than any other major one, python, java and C for example. is there a name for this kind of style? 19:11:34 would that be good? 19:11:47 beginnerMan: s-expressions. 19:11:48 beginnerMan: S-expressions (?) 19:12:04 homoiconicity? 19:12:11 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:12:17 consistent? 19:12:32 the-one-i-like-most? 19:12:35 ^ 19:12:53 yeah thats it s-expressions. pretty beautiful to look at 19:13:27 pure S-Ex! @ beginnerMan 19:13:43 pretty satisfied with current sbcl + emacs + slime :P GC is good too 19:14:08 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@189.247.100.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:14:08 strange how-im-able-to-use-hyphens-rather-than-underscores :p 19:14:09 bsamograd [~bsamograd@209.89.22.115] has joined #lisp 19:14:13 I wonder whether there is/was a Lisp which was not garbage collected. 19:14:18 Hyphens are a win. 19:14:19 would be interesting to see such a thing 19:14:28 newlisp 19:14:39 schoppenhauer: it would not be a lisp then. 19:14:45 schoppenhauer: I remember some joke or truth about the lisp machine GC being "Reboot" 19:14:52 schoppenhauer: the New Implementation of Lisp (NIL) only had a copying GC: reboot. 19:15:16 I suppose the second system effect is to blame here. 19:15:18 stassats: newlisp has a gc in the sense that it copies objects to the higher stack frames afaik 19:15:20 -!- bsamograd [~bsamograd@209.89.22.115] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:15:33 there seems to be no requirement to be able to run *forever* in the standard. So... 19:16:04 just turn off GC in any CL and hope you are not consing 19:16:04 Xach: is there anything out of the normal package I need to build the executable? i used the -c flag, the exe trapped on an unknown instruction, i think related to the 16-bit NTVDM environ. 19:16:20 BrokenCog: I don't know, sorry. I don't use clisp or windows or clisp on windows 19:16:39 For CCL there's a nice discussion of the innards of garbage collection here: http://ccl.clozure.com/ccl-documentation.html#Understanding-and-Configuring-the-Garbage-Collector 19:16:46 BrokenCog: as I see in the manual page, -c compiles to byte code 19:16:50 Xach: not really a great pair of software *:)(. 19:17:01 http://www.gnu.org/s/clisp/impnotes/image.html 19:17:03 H4ns: There is no definition of "Lisp". It would be interesting to see how far you can get without garbage collection, I think. 19:17:11 BrokenCog: you probably have to invoke (saveinitmem) to get a stand-alone executable 19:17:22 schoppenhauer: just run it on a Turing machine 19:17:38 stassats: ? 19:17:56 i have nothing to add 19:18:03 is there a portable way to have a file loaded by asdf force the default package for the rest of the files in that system to use when compiling/loading? 19:18:09 stassats: well, actually, the purpose of a garbage collector is to simulate an infinite amount of memory 19:18:17 akovalenk: that fixed the crash, not sure why the pprint didn't work but that might be the CMD shell issue ... thanks. 19:18:31 schoppenhauer: I know both NIL and a metacircular javascript compiler managed to bootstrap without a GC. 19:18:39 sykopomp: "force" like override in-package? or provide in-package-like where none was present before? 19:19:24 load it in some other package with in-package being different 19:19:41 Xach: more the latter. For example, if I wanted to override in-package with my own identically-named macro/function. 19:19:57 but why would you want to do that? 19:20:00 sykopomp: btw, if you're going to have files without in-package at the top, it might be not a good idea after all 19:20:03 resolving package-name conflicts? 19:20:10 in-package sticks across files? 19:20:20 sykopomp: CL:LOAD binds *PACKAGE*, so no. 19:20:30 pkhuong: according to wikipedia, NIL had a copying garbage collector 19:20:35 you can load the files first, and then rename-package 19:20:38 schoppenhauer: not for a long while. 19:20:43 sykopomp: i can imagine something related to adding eql :around methods somewhere. 19:20:48 *sykopomp* has a custom package definition/setting macro, and he doesn't want to have to prefix the symbol every time he uses it. 19:20:54 pkhuong: did it have any mechanism to free allocated memory again? 19:21:02 sykopomp: weak! 19:21:29 *sykopomp* can use nicknames, but is feeling lazy. 19:21:37 schoppenhauer: no. In fact, I don't see where the wikipedia page says that NIL ever grew a GC. 19:21:49 -!- cheezus [~Adium@75-144-26-36-sfba-ca.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:21:53 sykopomp: it's app-specific, name it with a keyword 19:22:21 pkhuong: "Lisp would use stop-and-copy garbage collection of its single heap for memory allocation" 19:22:37 I mean prefixing the symbol for the macro itself, not the package name. 19:22:43 schoppenhauer: yes, Lisp did that. Not NIL. 19:22:46 sykopomp: that's also what i mean. 19:22:51 sykopomp: you *can* have keyword-named macro 19:23:01 (:sykopackage :bob (:use :bill)) 19:23:04 oh 19:23:09 you're right, sorry. 19:23:14 ahahah that's horrible. 19:23:17 pkhuong: ah ok. 19:23:21 ITYM "awesome". 19:23:21 *sykopomp* considers doing it. 19:23:23 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:23:33 I do, I do. 19:23:35 Who cares if it's app-specific? Not like you have to care what other people think or do! 19:23:42 it's horrible like an enjoyable b-movie. 19:23:52 right :) 19:23:53 until you open source it like paragent :) 19:24:08 deke [~deke@fl-71-54-184-132.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:21 *sykopomp* has been making his one-package-per-file thing more convenient. 19:24:43 cheezus [~Adium@76-10-168-148.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 19:25:15 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 19:25:21 anyway, keywords it is. 19:25:49 Are you sure it's portable, by the way? Keywords are supposed to be constant, but I guess that doesn't necessarily apply to the function namespace. 19:26:05 it doesn't work right away on lispworks 19:26:09 but it provides a restart 19:26:13 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:16 hey guys, i can't figure out what this if test is actually testing: http://paste.lisp.org/display/124969 19:26:25 hee 19:26:45 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-095-182.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 19:27:32 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 19:27:47 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:27:53 beginnerMan: it's testing the variable list 19:28:31 I think it would be better to say (if (null list) ...) 19:29:37 endp, rather 19:29:44 dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 19:29:47 -!- frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:30:03 and of course I need a not... 19:30:27 it's doing...hmmm... if list + 1...what? damn i'm confused 19:30:48 tfb: just C-M-t 19:31:18 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:31:41 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 19:32:09 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:36 beginnerMan: is calculating the lenght of the list, recursively 19:32:38 beginnerMan: "If list is not null, the length of the list is one more than the length of the rest of the list; if it is null, the list is empty, so its length is zero." 19:33:06 yes. sorry just discovering tablets are seriously crap if you can type... 19:34:16 can you speak to it? 19:34:31 Amyn [~abennama@cac94-2-87-91-21-215.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 19:34:44 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 19:34:45 markskil1eck [~mark@host86-136-238-48.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:35:14 Bike: so if it was (if list (0)) would it be it would be "if list is null"? 19:35:15 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:35:46 oh no empty () would be? 19:35:58 I don't understand what you're trying to ask. 19:36:06 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:20 () or NIL 19:36:21 -!- austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:36:26 beginnerMan: 0 stands for "zero", null is always unrelated 19:36:36 beginnerMan: our 0 is true, not false 19:37:28 stassats: i am hurling abuse at it but it does not listen to me. clearly I need to get a keyboard 19:37:33 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@77.18.196.244.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 19:37:52 beginnerMan: the definition you posted is a recursive list-only version of LENGTH. It returns 0 for empty (null) lists, and 1+(the length of its tail) for other lists 19:38:06 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has left #lisp 19:38:06 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 19:38:09 if (if list (1+) is "if list is not null" is (if list ()) mean "if list is null" 19:38:40 beginnerMan: (if (null list) ...) means "if list is empty" 19:38:52 beginnerMan: and (1+) is not even valid 19:39:13 beginnerMan: (if (not (null list)) ...) if you want non-empty 19:39:58 beginnerMan: in a form like (if list 0 1), "list" is the (whole) branching condition 19:40:21 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:40:29 beginnerMan: and (in my example) 0 is what IF returns for true, 1 is what IF returns for false 19:41:03 oh right, thanks. i will add it to my notes for revision also 19:41:19 beginnerMan: if you have C backroung, thinking of our IFs as something more similar to (..?..:..) may help 19:41:57 any python examples? 19:42:20 beginnerMan: i.e. IF provides conditional side-effect, but it also returns a value, and this fact is widely *used* 19:43:03 antifuchs: just curious, which trick was new to you? 19:43:23 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:31 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 19:44:08 -!- cheezus [~Adium@76-10-168-148.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:44:12 ok thanks 19:44:37 -!- markskil1eck [~mark@host86-136-238-48.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:44:47 markskil1eck [~mark@72.249.145.208] has joined #lisp 19:44:47 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:45:07 -!- markskil1eck [~mark@72.249.145.208] has quit [Client Quit] 19:45:13 markskil1eck [~mark@72.249.145.208] has joined #lisp 19:45:39 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:45:46 -!- markskil1eck [~mark@72.249.145.208] has quit [Client Quit] 19:45:52 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 19:45:59 yakov [~yakov@95-27-248-3.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 19:46:04 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Client Quit] 19:46:08 hi 19:46:18 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 19:46:42 i was wondering if there is a more effective way of doing this? 19:46:44 http://paste.lisp.org/display/124971 19:47:53 topobot: lots 19:47:57 cheezus [~Adium@76-10-168-148.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 19:48:06 do you understand what im doing 19:48:09 Xach? 19:48:47 topobot: when you have a set of choices like that, COND can be more concise. 19:48:48 im using the value from sine to route between different types of rotation 19:49:05 topobot: You also might want to bind the value once and reuse it. 19:49:07 f4hy [~user@pool-71-182-234-122.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:09 Probably case would be even more concise. 19:49:15 At least for the second part. 19:49:29 oh, sorry. i meant to write CASE. 19:49:30 bind? 19:49:35 -!- f4hy [~user@pool-71-182-234-122.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 19:49:36 topobot: as with LET. 19:49:38 what do you mean with that? 19:49:56 (setf is not a good option? 19:50:09 (let ((sintime (* (sin *time*) 10))) (case *a* (1 ...) (2 ...))))))) 19:50:53 umm 19:50:56 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:51:14 topobot: posted another variant as your paste annotation 19:51:34 What's the default equality test for case? 19:51:39 topobot: (my suggestion is for your last three ifs. as of the first one, use when instead of ifs) 19:51:48 antoszka: eql is the only 19:51:49 oh 19:51:58 Hm. 19:52:06 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:17 akovalenko: :) 19:52:38 -!- kpavn [~kpavn@77.41.103.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:52:42 yakov_ [~yakov@95-27-42-225.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 19:52:47 akovalenko: can you explain your code please? 19:52:49 antoszka: a beautiful Erik Naggum's solution for non-eql case is at http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3208606982556119@naggum.net.html 19:53:03 why not make a non-eql case variant? 19:53:25 akovalenko: Damn, I'm spoiled by all the :test #'whatever Let's read Erik. 19:54:04 topobot: what's the problem? I select a bunch of arguments to pass to gl:rotate from a literal list.. 19:54:34 oh i see 19:54:45 so when *a* is 0 it selects the first option 19:54:54 1 the second and so on.. 19:55:23 yakov__ [~yakov@95-26-127-40.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 19:55:42 topobot: yes (note that if *a* is not in 0 1 2, it will probably crash) 19:55:55 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-064-185-203.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:55:59 francogrex [~user@109.130.146.198] has joined #lisp 19:56:02 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:56:08 -!- yakov [~yakov@95-27-248-3.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:56:23 cool thanks 19:56:31 -!- pavelludiq [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:57:06 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:57:13 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:19 there's a bull**it spam message going around on facebook that this year October has 5 Mondays, 5 Saturdays and 5 Sundays. This Happens once every 823 years... I'll try to programatically prove it (wrong) 19:58:15 programatically? that's lame 19:58:34 -!- yakov_ [~yakov@95-27-42-225.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:58:52 francogrex: http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/trivia/fivedays.asp 19:58:54 francogrex: it's right :) 19:59:29 one question, the code works but it seems there a little problem , when i do: 19:59:31 *akovalenko* has an (unpublished) /usr/bin/cal -like thing in CL 19:59:32 (if (eql (truncate (* (sin *time*) 10 )) 0) 19:59:32 (setf *a* (mod (+ 1 *a*) 3))) 19:59:43 it should be 0 , then 1, then 2 19:59:44 hah! 19:59:47 ok then 19:59:48 but when i print i get this: 19:59:57 akovalenko: it's right about 5 days, but not about 823 years 20:00:08 stassats: aargh, yes, sorry 20:00:31 http://paste.lisp.org/display/124972 20:01:06 topobot: yes, it goes 0-1-2, but it changes only in certain *time*s 20:01:11 it's 6-5-6-11, according to snopes, but i didn't check their math 20:01:21 -!- srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:01:33 -!- penryu [~tanuki@unaffiliated/penryu] has left #lisp 20:01:48 do you think i should setup source control to be able to access my files on my two computers, or is that overkill for my current beginner programs? 20:01:50 francogrex: now, next task, many posts on Facebook argue that the God exists, prove programatically that they're wrong 20:01:55 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:01:59 its suppose to change when this is 0 20:01:59 (truncate (* (sin *time*) 10 )) 20:02:06 beginnerMan: you should always use source control 20:02:07 beginnerMan: source control is never overkill 20:02:17 *Xach* is reminded of http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3132042770550791@naggum.no.html 20:02:20 even on a single computer with a single source file 20:02:24 but when is 0 it seems it change very fast 20:02:27 0 , 1, and 2 20:02:41 topobot: add (print ..) around your truncate subform and see how it goes 20:02:42 ok, is it hard to setup? 20:02:50 no 20:03:03 it's like "git init" 20:03:35 think i should use github? 20:03:53 beginnerMan: if you do, use an assumed name. 20:04:09 beginnerMan: go get a github account and read a gentle introduction and you should be good to go https://we.riseup.net/debian/git-development-howto 20:04:14 beginnerMan: git may be used locally too; github is convenient if you want on-line repository 20:04:48 ok thanks 20:04:52 akovalenko: this is what im getting 20:04:53 http://paste.lisp.org/display/124973 20:04:55 and you can worry less about losing all your code 20:05:04 Xach: why an assumed name, just good habit or something more sinister? 20:05:31 so that the serial killer reading your code doesn't know where you live 20:05:31 the problem is that when the value is 0 20:05:38 its suppose to change in this way 20:05:39 (setf *a* (mod (+ 1 *a*) 3)) 20:06:07 but when its 0 it make it very fast and *a* becomes 0 and 1 and 2 very fast 20:06:10 topobot: well, seems your (truncate ...) is normally non-zero, and sometimes it's zero for several times. why did you expect otherwise? who is managing your *time*? 20:06:21 when its suppose to be 0 and stay like that until the next sin cycle 20:06:29 bobbysmith007: so employers in 10 years won't find it and think it's representative of your current work. kind of a joke. 20:06:39 ahh, cool gotcha 20:07:04 Xach: you had me vaguely worried since my "anonymous" name is so thoroughly linked to my IRL name at this point 20:07:05 akovalenko: thats the way its suppose to be 20:07:11 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:07:18 its a sine, goes from 0 to 10 20:07:30 the thing is that when its 0 it should route 20:07:45 each time the variable *a* is 0 its should route 20:07:58 topobot: sine doesn't go from 0 to 10 for real times :) 20:07:58 first time its 0, then 1, then 2 , then 0 again and so on 20:08:12 pavelludiq [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has joined #lisp 20:08:23 for real times? 20:08:51 it goes from -10 to +10 20:08:52 some reason the index of the 'common lisp gentle introduction' pdf doesn't work 20:08:58 when its 0 its suppose to route 20:09:34 route one time when its 0, but the problem is that when its 0 it change very fast between 0, 1, 2 20:09:44 What do you mean by "route"? 20:10:06 jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-53.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:10:16 this: 20:10:18 (if (eql (truncate (* (sin *time*) 10 )) 0) 20:10:18 (setf *a* (mod (+ 1 *a*) 3))) 20:11:01 what are you really doing? 20:11:02 when its 0 then *a* is 0, the second time its 0 *a* its 1, third time *a* is 2 20:11:03 topobot: maybe you should replace if with when here, and put all other stuff with (gl:rotate) inside its body, too 20:11:04 and so on 20:11:12 Aren't you meaning rotate rather than route? 20:11:12 those trigonometric calculations aren't self-describing 20:11:34 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-000-132.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:34 no rotate 20:11:35 route 20:11:52 i was using puredata , that its a graphical language 20:12:06 Ah. 20:12:08 i have rotateXYZ with 3 inlets 20:12:19 curiouser and curiouser 20:12:22 i want that my sine function can control first x, then y then z 20:12:26 thats why i call route 20:12:47 coyo [~unf@pool-71-164-173-28.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:47 -!- coyo [~unf@pool-71-164-173-28.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:12:47 coyo [~unf@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 20:12:48 so i created *a* variable that im using to route 20:12:51 sammi` [sammi@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-nalpcweurmpzwnfa] has joined #lisp 20:13:01 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:13:08 *stassats* doesn't understand a bit 20:13:15 I think topobot wants it to work such that for some initial period, the arguments to rotate are the sine thing, then three zeroes; then once the sine thing hits zero, the three arguments become 0 1 0. When the sine thing hits zero again the arguments change to do 0 0 1. And then a third zero sets the arguments back to 0 0 0. 20:13:19 when *a* its 0 then (gl:rotate (* (sin *time*) 10) 1 0 0)) 20:13:32 when *a* its 1 then gl:rotate (* (sin *time*) 10) 0 1 0)) 20:13:43 when *a* its 2 then gl:rotate (* (sin *time*) 10) 0 0 1)) 20:13:45 1 0 0, then. It rotates along each axis successively? 20:13:51 phax [~phax@5e08129e.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 20:13:52 -!- phax [~phax@5e08129e.bb.sky.com] has quit [Changing host] 20:13:52 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 20:13:55 yes 20:14:03 around, rather 20:14:04 -!- aleron [~brad@61.sub-166-248-65.myvzw.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:14:32 its working fine , but im having a problem 20:14:37 topobot: anyway, CL seems to be doing the exact thing that you're requesting. As of what you really want, I've tried my telepathy mad skillz to no availd 20:15:11 topobot: btw, I see the typo in your paste, like 0 0 0 instead of 1 0 0 on first rotation 20:15:53 its hard to explaun 20:15:56 the problem im having 20:16:16 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 20:16:32 im gonna record and upload so you can understand 20:16:53 -!- anonchik [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:17:51 ok 20:18:17 when this " (if (eql (truncate (* (sin *time*) 10 )) 0) " its suppose to change in this way: 20:18:18 (setf *a* (mod (+ 1 *a*) 3))) 20:18:37 so when the sine value its 0 then it should route 20:18:55 topobot: does gl:rotate perform *additional* rotation, or does it *set* the new rotation angle? 20:18:56 so if i print the *a* value i should have: 20:19:10 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 0 0 0 0 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 20:19:14 right? 20:19:49 topobot: we have no idea how (and how frequently) your *time* is updated (relatively to a number of calls to your code) 20:20:02 topobot: so anything can happen, as far as we know 20:20:54 topobot: can you restate the original task at hand, without mentioning your code or your design choices at all? 20:20:56 but this is what im getting 20:20:57 http://paste.lisp.org/display/124974 20:21:22 so when its suppose to change to 1 20:21:32 it change very fast between 0 and 1 and 2 20:21:56 and doesnt respect the order it should be 20:22:08 topobot: well, it depends on how "good" (sin *time*)'s happen to coincide with calls to your code 20:22:18 umm 20:22:24 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:22:27 topobot: that's why I ask (for nth time) how its called and when and how frequently 20:23:43 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-095-182.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:23:50 gavinharper [~gavinrhar@dyn3-82-128-190-151.psoas.suomi.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:09 stassats: http://paste.lisp.org/display/124975 20:24:09 topobot: as of "respecting the order", it seems to go like (several 0s..several 1s..several 2s..back to 0s again), and that's what I expect from your code 20:24:35 its the way its suppose to be 20:24:40 srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:42 but its not working in what 20:25:18 *akovalenko* gives up, sorry. 20:25:36 should replace equal by = 20:26:23 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.76.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:26:53 this is the code: 20:26:53 http://paste.lisp.org/display/124976 20:27:01 -!- gavinharper [~gavinrhar@dyn3-82-128-190-151.psoas.suomi.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:27:21 the function is router 20:27:59 in your face facebook spammers! hahaha 20:28:07 -!- yakov__ [~yakov@95-26-127-40.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:28:18 *francogrex* thinks he's slowly losing his mind 20:29:56 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:31:23 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-095-182.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 20:31:32 akovalenko: ? 20:32:11 now on to the *god exists* programme ... it should start with eval.. 20:34:28 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:34:49 -!- beginnerMan [5ac58a4e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.90.197.138.78] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:34:55 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 20:36:28 topo [~topo@f053042193.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:37:09 -!- topobot [~topo@f053042193.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:37:17 oh i discovered the problem 20:37:21 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-220-99.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:29 -!- topo is now known as topoboto 20:38:13 -!- BrokenCog [~danielj@adsl-065-081-078-141.sip.pns.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:38:56 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-000-132.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:39:25 -!- cheezus [~Adium@76-10-168-148.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:42:20 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:42:36 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:42:44 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 20:43:20 i fixed just changing 10 by 100 20:43:21 (if (eql (truncate (* (sin *time*) 100 )) 0) 20:43:25 :P 20:43:42 cheezus [~Adium@173-164-132-22-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:55 Davidbrcz_ [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 20:43:55 -!- paul0 [~paul0@187.112.90.224] has quit [Quit: paul0] 20:44:17 topoboto: you could also just compare against 1d-2. 20:44:48 the problem it that my truncate was giving me a lot of 0s not just one 20:45:03 1d-2? 20:45:10 where> 20:45:38 HG`` [~HG@p5DC05AF1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:41 topoboto: if you want to say "sine is within 1/100", you may say it directly in Common Lisp 20:45:53 bloody hell. restarted chrome and the lisp-tips tip I was typing up is gone ): 20:45:53 topoboto: (< (abs (sin ...)) 1/100) 20:46:40 topoboto: 1d-2 is a floating point value close to 1/100 20:46:50 sine goes from -100 to 100 20:47:02 yakov [~yakov@95-24-241-16.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 20:47:24 whats the difference using 1d-2 instead of what im doing? 20:47:25 topoboto: sine goes from -1 to 1. When you scale it first before comparing it, it makes your code less readable 20:47:30 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:47:51 topoboto: and if you *tell* us that "sine goes from -100 to 100", it makes your *messages* hard to understand, either 20:48:16 not it goes from -100 to 100 20:48:21 -!- cheezus [~Adium@173-164-132-22-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:48:25 before it used to go from -10 to 10 20:48:33 *akovalenko* is crying out loud 20:48:36 but the its used to have too much 0s 20:48:54 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 20:48:55 -1 -1 -1 0 0 0 1 1 1 20:48:57 chiguire [~chiguire@190.39.219.244] has joined #lisp 20:48:57 -!- chiguire [~chiguire@190.39.219.244] has quit [Changing host] 20:48:57 chiguire [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 20:49:02 so i scaled to 100 20:49:04 to have: 20:49:07 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC05EB3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:49:15 - 2 -1 0 1 2 3 ... and so on 20:49:17 even better, if you just want a circular pattern, you could use modulo on integer values. 20:49:25 so i dont have a repeated 0 20:49:37 that was the error i was having 20:49:40 but now its ok 20:50:15 im using modulo 20:50:36 cheezus [~Adium@76-10-168-148.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 20:51:05 thttp://paste.lisp.org/display/124977 20:51:27 thats anyways 20:51:31 thanks 20:55:24 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.181.32] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:55:43 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-53.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:57:34 frozencemetery [~frozencem@128.237.114.120] has joined #lisp 20:59:24 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 21:01:41 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:52 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-72-43-20-246.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:02:57 So... SLIME's C-c C-c looks at the lisp file for an in-package form, right? Is there a way to give slime a hint about what package to use when there's no in-package form in the file? (hopefully get it to use a different form to figure it out) 21:04:58 oh, just add the form :P 21:05:46 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-76-82.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 21:06:20 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:06:38 heh. I guess I just override slime-search-buffer-package :) 21:06:43 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@GGYZMMDCCLXI.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:07:00 -!- pavelludiq [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:07:24 sabalaba [~sabalaba_@141.212.56.132] has joined #lisp 21:07:38 possibly an elisp function that calls (swank:set-package new-pkg) you can pass in through C-u? 21:07:47 or does that just do top-level? 21:08:13 *sykopomp* would rather it be automatic 21:08:25 ah 21:08:27 *sykopomp* really wishes he understood even a slight bit of emacs regex. Ugh. 21:08:41 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:09:03 sykopomp: that's what I had in mind when I advised not to depart from (in-package in the beginning) common style 21:09:46 akovalenko: sure, but in-package was becoming annoying and redundant :) 21:10:19 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.87] has joined #lisp 21:11:26 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:42 peterhil` [~peterhil@YYKMMMCMXXV.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 21:14:39 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:14:53 cheezus1 [~Adium@173-164-132-22-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:53 -!- cheezus [~Adium@76-10-168-148.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:15:43 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:22 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:19:03 pavelludiq [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has joined #lisp 21:19:37 -!- dlowe [dlowe@nat/google/x-lnlhlpnmgblqlryk] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:21:17 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.146.198] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:22:42 one more slime tip, now i have as much as Xach 21:24:13 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-095-182.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:25:05 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:25:46 -!- frozencemetery [~frozencem@128.237.114.120] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:25:55 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-220-99.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:27:04 -!- H4ns [41173d62@gateway/web/freenode/ip.65.23.61.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:27:13 -!- HG`` [~HG@p5DC05AF1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: HG``] 21:27:34 dwim [~dwim@0.Red-79-156-38.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:02 sykopomp: don't override slime-search-buffer-package, set `slime-find-buffer-package-function' variable to something appropriate 21:28:35 and by default slime will use the package in the REPL 21:29:55 another tip! 21:30:21 that's a free one 21:30:28 heh 21:31:01 what about general Emacs/.emacs tips for CL programming? 21:31:06 the w3c must be of their rocker with HTML5 webstorage -- This one is prob. gonna turn out badly. 21:31:27 ? why ? 21:31:47 felideon: once i run out of slime tips 21:31:56 na[ii] [~textual@74.85.239.34] has joined #lisp 21:32:20 h'ok 21:33:34 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-92-111-151.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:35:28 I've tried to make a simple gray stream class for SLIME minibuffer-based *query-io* -- http://paste.lisp.org/+2OFM 21:36:03 html5 webstorage is nothing new. 21:36:30 akovalenko: is that for conflict resolution? 21:36:41 stassats: yes, among other things 21:37:14 stassats: of course, the first thing I tried is a conflict resolution (I bound *query-io* around a conflict-causing code ) 21:37:17 well, that's not how i'd do it, because it'll present different interfaces for different implementations 21:37:59 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:38:25 stassats: care to elaborate? I don't rely on non-portable restarts and such, as long as interactive restart code uses *query-io* (that it should) 21:38:54 stassats: that's the whole point of making it a stream class, actually 21:39:08 the interface is different in different implementations 21:39:58 stassats: which interface? what restarts are used for resolution? well, of course. But gray streams are portable, and SLIME's read-from-minibuffer-in-emacs is cross-implementation, too 21:39:58 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:40:16 portability doesn't matter at all 21:41:28 anonchik [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has joined #lisp 21:41:34 zmv [~daniel@c953332e.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 21:42:08 slime should provide a uniform and convenient interface 21:42:29 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:42:56 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 21:43:03 stassats: adding a condition-specific per-platform support for conflict resolution is better, of course 21:43:45 -!- Davidbrcz_ [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:44:05 at least now I have something not terribly annoying (and usable with CFFI "I-really-want-that-library" restarts, too) 21:44:15 Davidbrcz_ [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 21:44:40 -!- sellout- [~Adium@ip-64-134-236-37.public.wayport.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:44:42 if it works for you, ok, but that's not something i would include into slime 21:46:02 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:46:39 -!- anonchik [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 21:46:51 anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has joined #lisp 21:47:44 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-177-201-46.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:48:09 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-177-201-46.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:07 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:50:14 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 21:51:05 stassats: neither would I propose it for SLIME, only for SLIME-enduring users here :) and that's why I don't post it to launchpad, of course. 21:52:09 foom: My impression is that webstorage is intended to faciliate more dynamic environments. CL is a very dynamic language and has CLOS which with the MOPy stuff makes reacting to dynamically triggered "events" easier _but_ creating persistence in lieu of the MOP has also proven to be difficult esp. w/r/t things like threading. So, I don't see how it can possibly be safe/sane with the limited capabilities of the current DOM/javascript 21:52:09 model to do better than something like CL. 21:52:15 it's funny when you have to replace a link to someone's site with link to a reliable site about them 21:52:46 http://www.ctan.org/lion.html (duane bibby) 21:53:53 what is that about? 21:54:12 -!- cheezus1 [~Adium@173-164-132-22-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:54:15 mutenewt [~mutenewt@c-65-96-210-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:50 hellllo 21:56:24 lllllut 21:57:24 why did you type "11111ut"? :P 21:58:52 your font is bad 21:58:54 -!- yakov [~yakov@95-24-241-16.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:58:55 ca va 22:00:02 ça va? 22:00:17 salut ? 22:00:20 lol 22:00:40 amnesiac [~amnesiac@c-98-207-250-150.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:00:40 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@c-98-207-250-150.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:00:40 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 22:02:44 mon_key: you don't need as much as MOP to do persistence in some languages, even recording per update .. proxy objects, etc 22:03:26 do you mean "as little as MOP"? 22:03:48 oGMo: what other languages have a CLOSlike MOP? 22:03:52 no, MOP can be rather heavy 22:04:18 mon_key: what i'm saying is CLOS-like MOP is unnecessary in some languages to do that 22:04:33 stassats: no it isn't. I was joking. it was a font joke. 22:04:51 oGMo: To do what? 22:04:55 mon_key: persistence 22:04:58 but having an ad-hoc mechanism for every possible features isn't "less" 22:05:17 cheezus [~Adium@173-164-132-22-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:50 oGMo: Are these dynamic languages that are thread/mutex aware? 22:06:03 in some cases, like javscript, you can probably do simplistic versions of MOPish things that are sufficient 22:06:20 paul0 [~paul0@187.112.90.224] has joined #lisp 22:06:24 mon_key: ruby is, javascript is mostly C and at least _can_ be 22:06:43 javascript is mostly C? oh well 22:07:06 assuming we're not talking cl-javascript :p 22:07:22 i've seen byte compiled js that is 22:07:30 oGMo: No doubt you _can_ do some of the MOPish. What I'm waving my arms about is that as soon as the W3c sanctions webstorage it won't be just simplistic things that will be done 22:07:37 oGMo: there's a certain level of MOP defined for JS, that is, there's a specified datastructure of certain constructs like stack frames 22:08:04 mon_key: ... In practice, WebStorage is yesterday, now we are getting IndexedDB 22:08:20 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-23-85.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:05 mon_key: i don't know about w3c webstorage specifically, but what _i'm_ saying is that you can accomplish it perfectly fine without resorting to something like a custom metaclass 22:09:14 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:09:25 oGMo: At first maybe. 22:09:32 p_l|backup: right .. most decent OO languages have _some_ metaobject functionality 22:09:51 Google reportedly wants to introduce a new language that is slightly more advanced from start, to get away from JS' early childhood sins 22:09:55 you can do that in CL too, just access your slots through methods only 22:10:22 oGMo: IndexedDB being a case in point :) 22:10:23 -!- xharkonnen [~charles@host86-141-143-76.range86-141.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:10:26 p_l|backup: by replacing them with other sins? 22:10:57 stassats: nah .. you should be able to override actual slow setting in js .. in ruby (and likely smalltalk) it's a bit tougher 22:11:01 p_l|backup: that would be brilliant 22:11:06 but hardly likely to go anywhere 22:11:07 "slot setting" .. freudian ;) 22:11:10 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:11:40 ST can probably just do it through metaclass, but not sure 22:11:44 oGMo: then specialize standard-instance-access, you don't need a metaclass for that 22:11:45 perhaps the future is things which are translated or compiled to JS :) 22:11:52 -!- pavelludiq [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:12:12 rsynnott: it's supposedly going to be released with JS-targeting compiler, and native VM in Chrome 22:12:27 oh my, i forgot that it's not a method 22:12:46 anyway, what's the problem with a metaclass? 22:12:58 s/method/generic function/ 22:13:05 p_l|backup: oh, that could work quite well, then 22:13:45 realitygrill [~realitygr@67-194-69-14.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 22:14:04 rsynnott: probably one of the first things to go will be the current symbol lookup algorithm... or so I wish, the thing is dreadful for performance if you don't know about it 22:14:31 If we don't what about it? 22:15:06 I'd also like to see proper strong typing 22:15:21 [1,2,3] + [4,5,6] should NOT equal "1,2,34,5,6" :) 22:15:26 rsynnott: web developers can't handle that 22:15:45 pjb`: my understanding of it is that you get a lot of scanning to get to right symbol. And can have some interesting scoping effects 22:15:54 (as far as I can see, JS's answer to every probem is to turn things into strings) 22:16:18 It still sounds silly to care for such a dumb plateform. 22:16:21 -!- na[ii] [~textual@74.85.239.34] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:16:27 oGMo: It is notes like that at section 3.1.12 of the IndexedDB spec that i find troubling http://www.w3.org/TR/IndexedDB/#options-object-concept 22:16:45 pjb`: most widely-available platform in the world :) 22:17:03 rsynnott: strict mode. 22:17:29 rsynnott: it the `toString'edness of JS that the above link is discussing :) 22:18:39 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba_@141.212.56.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:21:15 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-82.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:31 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-166-105.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:22:42 -!- dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:24:16 pavelludiq [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has joined #lisp 22:26:13 stassats: i have a huge headstart in queued tips 22:26:28 timack [~timack@hlfx57-1-57.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 22:28:20 "if a tip is written but nobody reads it, ..." 22:28:28 sabalaba [~sabalaba_@141.212.20.5] has joined #lisp 22:28:53 i don't know what to use instead of ellipses "does it make a sound?" doesn't sound good 22:29:17 i got more queued tips than johnson & johnson 22:29:32 Cloud_ [~cbolano@189.247.100.41] has joined #lisp 22:29:37 i queue them in my head 22:29:42 :-}} 22:29:52 -!- Cloud_ is now known as cesarbp 22:30:13 and if i run out of tips, i can always engineer new features and write tips about it, while you can't do nothing about CL! 22:30:43 i could switch to longino cl 22:32:33 -!- tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Changing host] 22:32:33 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #lisp 22:32:36 *stassats* researched that and his reaction is "ugh!" 22:33:21 uh oh 22:33:32 github outage means very slow updates for quicklisp testing 22:33:38 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:00 github ): 22:34:45 repo.or.cz is laughing right now 22:34:47 if you are sad, just think what the linux kernel people are feeling 22:35:07 mon_key: heh yeah .. this is simply a case of "this might be hard, we don't like hard things" 22:35:08 some listed "features": 'CL minus CLOS', does that mean it's -OS? 22:35:08 haha, yeah (: 22:37:04 Merdam [~Lotium@201.160.243.171] has joined #lisp 22:37:11 mattc [~user@ppp118-209-230-154.lns20.mel6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:17 stassats: i keep asking if he'll add a repl. so far no go. 22:37:23 object annotations are in. no repl. 22:37:31 Why am I getting this error code after I compile? 22:37:35 I am only intermediate in lisp 22:37:39 http://i.imgur.com/IrlkN.jpg 22:38:04 you don't know how to copy-and-paste? 22:38:17 yes I do 22:38:17 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 22:38:19 don't follow link if you want something work-safe 22:38:21 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!*Lotium@201.160.243.* 22:38:25 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 22:39:04 nice 22:39:06 akovalenko: oh well, badly formatted lisp code would've been worse 22:39:08 beginnerMan [5ac58a4e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.90.197.138.78] has joined #lisp 22:40:14 *akovalenko* knows that "don't follow" is what I have to say to be sure everyone clicks on it 22:40:43 haha, yes, indeed 22:40:50 *antifuchs* rubs eyes 22:41:30 *p_l|backup* thinks he is spoiled by people who while posting NSFW, keep it mainly about females ;-) 22:41:41 antifuchs: I've heard of an insidious technique of making users read some shourt documentation: just name your file DONT-READ-ME.txt 22:41:46 *short 22:41:49 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-76-82.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 22:41:54 tee hee 22:42:10 at least we weren't rickrolled 22:42:39 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:42:50 I'd prefer rick roll. 22:43:02 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 22:43:08 Not to mention that I recently heard a really awesome version, on guitar 22:43:15 hey guys, i'm trying to get how to use if statements, i am trying to make this function add 1 if the number is odd. this is the best i can seem to do, it doesn't work. (defun make-even (x) (if (evenp x) (x) (+ x 1))) 22:43:33 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:44 why is x wrapped into parenthesis? 22:43:55 -!- Davidbrcz_ [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:44:05 you don't write (+ (x) 1), why do you write (x)? 22:44:09 for extra safety, I presume 22:44:09 isn't the true/false conditions meant to be? 22:44:23 what made you think so? 22:44:28 beginnerMan: meant to be what? 22:45:15 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-149-162-79.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:45:18 DaDaDosPrompt [~DaDaDosPr@184.99.29.100] has joined #lisp 22:45:30 beginnerMan: (x) means "call x" 22:45:50 or expand x 22:45:50 beginnerMan: Albo (1+ x) will be more concise. 22:46:01 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-23-195.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:46:19 s/Albo/Also/ 22:46:22 oh the only example i've seen is where they used (list) 22:46:22 beginnerMan: I'd guess that you think of inner parens within (if...) as part of "IF-specific" syntax. They are not. 22:46:30 dwim_ [~dwim@170.Red-79-156-37.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:40 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:49 yeah i thought it was the syntax 22:47:04 beginnerMan: (IF just-expects three forms), the same forms as you could use elsewhere 22:47:29 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.146.181] has joined #lisp 22:47:55 two-or-three 22:47:56 gry [user@freenode/staff/gry] has joined #lisp 22:47:56 PriceChild [~pricey@freenode/staff-emeritus/pricechild] has joined #lisp 22:47:57 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:48:13 -!- dwim [~dwim@0.Red-79-156-38.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:48:17 -!- dwim_ is now known as dwim 22:48:24 ok, what did i do wrong here? (defun make-even (x) (if (evenp x) x (+ x 1))) 22:48:54 beginnerMan: nothing wrong 22:49:07 looks just fine. 22:49:50 (defun make-even (x) (+ x (logand x 1))) 22:50:15 I'd write it as (+ x (mod x 2)) 22:50:33 oh i am stil lcalling functions like (foo (args)) rather than (foo args) 22:51:01 heh 22:51:06 ok thanks for the help 22:51:11 beginnerMan: do you program by instinct only? 22:51:20 oGMo: doesn't sound like a "We don't do this b/c its too hard" thing and more of a "we know this isn't safe given that this little thing we call JS and the tower of crud built up around it from our DOM is highly string dependent and prone to dodgy stuff and stopping dodgy stuff is too hard so we're gonna ignore it and buld our tower even taller" or something like that :) 22:51:37 beginnerMan: programming is hard, let's go shopping! 22:51:58 and shopping is easy? 22:52:22 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-141-235.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:52:34 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-203.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:52:40 *akovalenko* thinks shopping is hard when you're 50km away from Moscow/Russia and it's 02:52 :) 22:52:41 akovalenko: just lisp is still very strange for me, im improving a lot though 22:52:44 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-203.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:53:02 dsevilla [532b4be7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.83.43.75.231] has joined #lisp 22:53:11 akovalenko: i'm 650 away from Moscow/Russia, and i'm okay! 22:53:16 650 km 22:53:40 stassats: that would be a good example of non-monotonic function :) 22:54:28 1150 in my case. 22:55:07 and how the comrades across the pond must feel? 22:55:08 shipping is generally hard, but lists make it easier 22:55:29 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-141-235.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:55:37 *shopping 22:56:10 why would you need lists to shop? 22:56:17 lists are for bores. 22:56:30 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@static-50-43-53-7.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:30 stassats: Imperialists. They always feel well. 22:56:30 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@static-50-43-53-7.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:56:30 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 22:56:54 zmv: i use vectors, so that i can buy items randomly 22:57:11 hehehehe 22:57:17 how would i do this? 4.2. Write a function FURTHER that makes a positive number larger by adding one to it, and a negative number smaller by subtracting one from it. What does your function do if given the number 0? 22:57:42 you would use IF 22:57:42 not sure how to check for positive or negative 22:57:51 beginnerMan: read clhs. 22:57:52 some find that well-being has a positive correlation with distance to Moscow/Russia 22:57:59 beginnerMan: for example, the section about numbers. 22:58:17 (defun further (x) (+ x (signum x))), sorry for solving your homework 22:58:57 when posting homework, perhaps avoid posting the actual question number 22:59:04 pjb`: clhs? 22:59:25 dsevilla: http://www.cliki.net/Getting%20Started 22:59:47 it's from the book gentle introduction, not homework :p 23:00:16 pjb`: ah, sorry, the hyperspec :) 23:00:50 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.87] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 23:00:55 cmm: actually, I consider making it >10000km.. eventually :) 23:01:01 OK, I have a question I don't quite find the answer 23:01:11 can an :initform depend on other fields of the object? 23:01:14 -!- cheezus [~Adium@173-164-132-22-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:01:28 for example, I have a blog post that has to calculate a slug depending on the title 23:01:37 dsevilla: you'd better use shared-initialize for this purpose 23:01:40 akovalenko: are you going to Space? 23:02:09 akovalenko: is that a technique or a keyword? 23:02:21 it's a generic-function 23:02:33 dsevilla: it's a generic function. you define method for it where you initialize under-initialized stuff 23:02:35 stassats: i love any excuse to use signum 23:03:07 akovalenko: ah, nice to know. let me see the docs 23:03:19 grepping my code, i used it twice! 23:03:23 both are on the same line 23:04:08 -!- oconnore [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:04:53 I see, I have to re-read that chapter of practical common lisp :) 23:05:07 stassats: there should be a name for that 23:05:41 sigging 23:06:06 it's in my chess moves checking code, i don't think i understand now 23:06:18 it 23:09:02 -!- beginnerMan [5ac58a4e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.90.197.138.78] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:09:13 Xach: sorry to bring it up again, but... will we see (quicklispable) CHIPZ working this time? 23:09:48 -!- pavelludiq [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:10:39 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:12:14 Xach: D'oh, I'd have used email to lisptips@xach.com if I had known there was that option. I think you should mention it on http://lisptips.tumblr.com/submit. 23:12:31 Great idea btw. 23:12:39 is your tip about LOOP? 23:13:12 stassats: No, but otherwise I don't want to spoil the surprises... if they get published. 23:14:04 My tip about LOOP is: "Don't waste effort fighting it or hating it because it's on the way to destruction, for great justice." 23:14:16 is macro-function expected to return non-nil for a macro defined in a file that's being compiled? 23:14:36 mattc: depends when. 23:14:52 cheezus [~Adium@75-144-26-36-sfba-ca.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:55 -!- drdo` [~drdo@89.180.114.104] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:14:56 inside (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) ...) 23:15:13 where is it? 23:15:21 in rutils core.lisp 23:15:33 (trying to use rutils with clozure cl) 23:15:36 where in core.lisp? 23:15:36 well, now we know that it's not about LOOP. 976 questions left before surprise is spoiled :) 23:16:07 inside abbrev, when it's trying to abbrev with-gensyms 23:16:32 but I've tried to cut it down to a smaller sample and I get the same issue (macro-function returns nil) 23:16:34 Oh well, it's about offline CLHS, WRITE and WITH-OPEN-FILE. There ;P Not much really. 23:17:09 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:17:55 (As 3 separate tips.) 23:18:05 -!- psyllo [~benjamin@69.59.136.174] has left #lisp 23:18:40 mattc: don't know about abbrev, but I won't expect macro-function to be non-NIL at macroexpansion time 23:18:51 mattc: sorry, I would 23:19:28 topoboto: "21:11:31 is there parent object in common lisp?" <-- Maybe you're looking for class T? 23:19:51 what does that question even mean? 23:19:52 mattc: really, it could be either way 23:20:06 loderunner: "11:02:49 Xach: I'm doing some highly modular AI that will be randomly combining a crapload of routines. The modularity comes at a price. If I could combine two pieces together instead of calling them separately, would be quite a bit cheaper. So I write higher-efficiency functions representing common combinations, and a macro quietly replaces them whenever that particular sub-chain of functions emerges." 23:20:08 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:20 akovalenko: so it's not portable? 23:20:25 <-- Seems like what you really want to do is make a DSL and compiler. 23:20:49 stassats: topoboto's stuff is all about telepathy drill, something that I appreciate but many other people really don't :) 23:21:03 -!- cheezus [~Adium@75-144-26-36-sfba-ca.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:21:44 mattc: the "when" part is important. Can you produce a really minimal example that fails? 23:21:47 akovalenko: i don't have any real cl experience, just trying to learn a bit before I go blaming compiler bugs or library errors :) 23:21:59 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A46D0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:22:01 akovalenko: yes I will paste something 23:22:24 urandom__ [~user@p548A46D0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:24 You could represent your programs in your DSL as first-class objects, and then you can compile to closures for execution efficiency. You'll retain the ability to inspect/transform/optimize/pretty-pretty/whatever your programs since they're just objects. And you could make a high-level stepper and debugger and stuff. 23:25:47 mattc: wanting rutils.core:abbrev *within* your macro looks just plain wrong. maybe you wanted something that would *macroexpand* into (rutils.core:abbrev ...) instead? 23:28:01 akovalenko: abbrev is at the top level; I don't understand what you mean 23:28:09 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:28:21 mattc: like (abbrev (defmacro)) ? or before/after? 23:28:30 ve [~a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 23:28:56 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@67-194-69-14.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 23:29:05 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:29:10 mattc: the problem may be caused by the fact that (abbrev ...) expands to (eval-when (...))-wrapped form 23:30:09 mattc: so you have to wrap your macros into (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute)) too 23:30:11 akovalenko: the abbrev macro (which expands to a call to macro-function) is defined first, then some macro ("with-gensyms" but I'm not sure that's relevant), then the top level call "(abbrev with-unique-names with-gensyms)" which should exapnd to a call to (macro-function 'with-gensyms) 23:30:30 akovalenko: ah I see 23:31:37 mattc: see above about eval-when stuff. Either make your macro available earlier, or wrap abbrev into another (eval-when) that *doesn't* have :compile-toplevel 23:31:51 -!- PriceChild [~pricey@freenode/staff-emeritus/pricechild] has left #lisp 23:31:51 -!- Merdam [~Lotium@201.160.243.171] has left #lisp 23:31:55 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:12 akovalenko: ok, so the "defmacro with-gensyms" doesn't define he macro when :compile-toplevel? 23:32:46 *the 23:33:48 mattc: (defmacro ..) does define a macro, but it's not availabled in the "evaluation environment" 23:33:53 *available 23:34:09 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:34:38 unless you wrap it into eval-when (:.. :.. :..) to *make* it available there as well as in compilation environment 23:35:27 akovalenko: ok, thanks, that makes sense (I did wonder what the point of (eval-when (..everything..) ...) 23:35:32 *akovalenko* unsure if it's required or merely allowed by the standard, but, anyway, 23:35:32 shesahskeeze [~kitty@adsl-68-254-166-15.dsl.milwwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:38 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 23:37:05 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.187.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:37:25 *akovalenko* thinks that rutils.core:abbrev is doing a wrong thing when it expands to eval-when, and a whole body of abbrev is uninspiring, too. 23:39:38 akovalenko: do you mean, it could be written in a cleaner style, or you'd avoid it altogether? 23:39:49 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@YYKMMMCMXXV.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:40:01 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.39] has joined #lisp 23:40:32 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-26-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:40:51 mattc: for example, rutils.core:abbrev make me think "what's the point of.." when it declines to handle a special form 23:40:51 cheezus [~Adium@75-144-26-36-sfba-ca.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:36 mattc: not that I hope to evaluate a whole library quality by a single macro, but it tells something... 23:42:11 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 23:44:09 akovalenko: i see. the library seems to have lots of contributors so i'd guess the style varies. 23:45:16 mattc: in the same core.lisp, symbol names are generated by format and then interned. Just Plain Wrong Again. 23:45:28 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-102-30.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 23:46:23 *interned after string-upcase'ing them, which is even more wrong 23:47:11 akovalenko: ensure-symbol, i see... the prob with upcase is it's not portable right? 23:47:49 mattc: no, this time it's *portably* wrong :) 23:48:01 akovalenko: heh 23:48:06 akovalenko: what's unpleasant about interning new symbols? 23:48:29 mattc: see: (format nil "~a" '|MixedCaseSymbolName|) 23:48:29 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-102-30.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:48:42 mattc: then see (intern (format nil "~a" '|MixedCaseSymbolName|)) 23:49:04 -!- Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:50:00 mattc: well, it has a chance to work 23:51:07 (format nil (string '#:make-~a) some-variable) (-: 23:51:31 probably won't save you when the user sets readtable case from under you, but it's handy 23:51:41 also, check out alexandria's format-symbol 23:52:26 (that takes a string designator as the format string) 23:54:52 yakov [~yakov@95-24-241-16.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 23:57:06 akovalenko: thanks for your advice, it's helpful as i'm getting a handle on lisp 23:59:58 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]