00:00:46 don't listen to purists, use CLOS :-) 00:01:03 -!- replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:01:44 *maxm* alawys runs into trouble when I use more then very simple lists as data structures 00:03:36 ie if you have a data structure that is always 4 elements, be a man and defclass it, because your code will be full of (first) (second) (third) (fourth) of defstructuring binds 00:04:59 It's just a list of records, maxm, the class system would probably be overkill. 00:05:18 yes they're just a couple of numbers for each record 00:05:29 btw, just substituted the list with an adjustable vector and it halved the runtime 00:05:44 the memory it takes up is still astonishing though 00:06:01 How much data are you reading? 00:06:25 i'm creating a vector of 14205 records 00:06:40 each record is a date (got with encode-universal-time) and two floats (got with read-from-string) 00:06:43 consed together 00:07:00 (time ...) tells me "space: 504234600 bytes" 00:07:04 i think that's the space i'm taking? 00:07:17 are you doing (append) 00:07:30 no i'm setfing the new element of the array with aref each time 00:07:43 and the three numbers i cons with two (cons 00:07:56 you sure it sasy "that many bytes consed" that its not a total space? 00:08:14 no i don't know, it's the first time i use this function (time, let me check 00:08:19 qsun` [~user@123-243-18-22.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 00:09:14 hm it doesn't tell... 00:09:21 but i'm running only this function 00:09:31 so even if it's the total taken space it's mainly just this vector 00:09:35 replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 00:10:01 maybe it's the floats that are stored in some overkill format 00:10:12 or it should automatically understand that short is enough? 00:10:52 http://i.imgur.com/VmW9j.png 00:10:53 00:11:11 is it SBCL or some other lisp? 00:11:32 clisp + slime 00:11:48 ah clisp could be doing something funny I guess 00:12:06 According to clisp docs, he must be looking at "the number of bytes allocated". 00:12:28 Looks like you have access to EXT:TIMES if you want more information about space usage. 00:13:21 I think generally "allocated" is a total, consed means the doing the form that you gave to (time) 00:13:40 ah 00:13:45 total is total space, you have to manually run gc to shrink it, you can have lots of megabytes of garbage 00:13:57 how do i manually run gc? 00:14:08 You can use ROOM if you want information about space usage of the entire system. 00:14:11 crunzcrunch: try "times" instead of time 00:14:20 elopezc [~ikki@189.247.142.134] has joined #lisp 00:14:27 bike: beat me to it 00:14:29 -!- elopezc is now known as ikki 00:14:45 I've never used CLISP, so I'm sort of guessing from the docs... 00:14:54 -!- Yuuhi [~user@p4FC954FA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:15:49 try (gc) then (ext:gc) then M-x slime-aporpos-all gc) 00:17:41 -!- ericklc [~ikki@189.247.157.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:17:42 ok now it looks like it's only 12 Mega i'm using 00:17:54 i wonder why it allocates 500Mega when i run the program 00:18:17 the program doesn't do much except reading lines from a files, parsing them in regular strings and then consing the records 00:18:27 -!- sherkund [~sherkund@c-24-63-225-198.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:19:02 *regular expressions 00:21:04 frx [~xenon@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 00:23:02 thank you guys, you've been very helpful, good night 00:23:06 -!- crunzcrunch [~33@151.75.187.95] has quit [Quit: Sto andando via] 00:23:42 -!- Kryztof [~user@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:25:46 -!- lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp2618.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:26:41 Yuuhi [~user@p4FC954FA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:20 buguldey [~buguldey@client-202-74.sibtele.com] has joined #lisp 00:27:33 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:29:19 -!- Deathaholic [~Mococa@187.58.176.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:29:19 ars-delirum [~Adium@189.217.49.202] has joined #lisp 00:29:24 -!- ars-delirum [~Adium@189.217.49.202] has left #lisp 00:29:52 how would one create an executable out of asdf system? for my own use, not for distrubition 00:30:00 distribution 00:30:06 load it, save an image 00:30:27 asdf systems don't inherently have main entry points, so you'll have to decide for yourself what you want it to do on startup 00:30:51 frx: I you're using sbcl, Buildapp is very nice. http://www.xach.com/lisp/buildapp/ 00:32:28 LiamH [~healy@pool-108-18-160-110.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:03 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has joined #lisp 00:33:15 antifuchs: there? 00:33:16 cheers 00:33:30 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:11 did you notice that ql:quickload loads the system faster than asdf:load-system? depending on lisp implementation up to 3 times faster 00:36:19 I thought it just used asdf ? 00:38:18 maybe it's all the printing to stdout that's slowing asdf:load-system down 00:38:35 -!- qsun` [~user@123-243-18-22.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:40:47 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-2-150-45.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:40:56 qsun` [~user@123-243-18-22.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 00:41:56 Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.176.104] has joined #lisp 00:42:28 hba [~hba@187.171.203.4] has joined #lisp 00:53:20 humasect [~humasect@d24-235-161-86.home1.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:27 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:55:43 -!- pavelludiq [~pavelludi@87.246.58.193] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:58:52 -!- qsun` [~user@123-243-18-22.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:00:54 -!- lupo33 [~lupo33@203.110.240.205] has left #lisp 01:04:42 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A1DC3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:05:20 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-160-186.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:28 frx: make sure you don't have asdf1 01:07:16 frx: I had kind of really old asdf version, and after upgrading to asdf2 was pleasantly surprised by the speed difference (i think they replaced lists with hashes or something like that) 01:07:37 frx: so now my SBCL startup is around 3-5 seconds vs 15, with 10+ systems loaded on startup 01:08:17 also quicklisp may be faster because it actually uses its own asdf.lisp I think 01:09:16 it's 2.14 01:09:24 sorry, 2.014 01:09:37 gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.113.14] has joined #lisp 01:09:51 qsun` [~user@123-243-18-22.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:09:59 I am not sure how to tell if it's asdf or asdf2 01:10:50 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 01:11:15 yates [~yates@nc-71-54-141-32.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:26 can one update sbcl itself using quicklisp? 01:11:44 or is that something better-left to the os packaging system? 01:11:55 frx: (find :asdf2 *features*) 01:12:19 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:17:15 yates: it's like asking if you can update your i5 for an i7 with apt-get... 01:18:06 pjb: ooh, I'd love to do that :D 01:18:10 the fact that lisp processors be virtual machines non-withstanding. 01:18:21 pjb: is it? 01:18:42 it can be built with lisp, so it doesn't seem like such a stupid question 01:18:43 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.113.14] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:18:44 frx: asdf::*asdf-version* will give you the version 01:19:06 oh, or what fe[nl]ix said 01:19:38 Well I didn't say it was stupid. You can always write an asd file to build each implementation... 01:21:17 The only problem is that that doesn't load any (usable) lisp code in the current image. 01:25:20 perhaps i should backup and ask for clarification: i ran into a problem loading slime yesterday after doing an update with quicklisp and someone (Bike?) told me that as of .50, sbcl changed their socket structure. so is that the case, and is the usual fix to get sbcl v. >= 0.50? 01:25:30 -!- qsun` [~user@123-243-18-22.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:25:49 even f15 isn't up to .50 yet 01:25:54 laanan [~laanan@c-24-125-210-37.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:24 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 01:27:17 http://fpaste.org/NOGb/ 01:27:26 Hello, looking for a free, non-emacs common lisp IDE. I have been trying to get Cusp working with Eclipse...but it just won't connect to Lisp...any other options? 01:27:27 yates: no, 1.0.43 should suffice 01:27:39 laanan: lispworks 01:27:46 personal edition is free. 01:29:05 ok, I will try it. Anyone get Cusp working on windows 7? 01:30:01 *Xach* never tried 01:33:05 yates: it's probably best not to rely on the OS-supplied SBCL for anything other than a known-good binary that you can use for compiling/installing the latest from source. It's great that it's become part of the distribution, but Fedora just doesn't move as fast as SBCL development. 01:33:44 joshe: there's also asdf:asdf-version 01:33:47 jfleming: thanks for that - i was getting the idea this was the case 01:34:19 actually i'm in the process of switching to openSUSE and it doesn't have sbcl at all! 01:34:40 at least 11.4 doesn't 01:35:16 www.sbcl.org is the best place I know to get sbcl for linux 01:35:38 Xach: ack. 01:35:41 H4ns`` [~user@p4FFC818B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:35:58 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-135-118.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:36:17 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-135-118.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:36:41 i was just resisting since, if you start loading custom apps here and there, it becomes a maintenance nightmare. 01:36:56 but i can make an exception for sbcl... 01:37:59 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-168-139.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:38:04 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-168-139.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:39:19 -!- H4ns` [~user@p4FFC86C9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:40:00 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 01:41:38 yates: I find graft useful for managing the apps that I compile from source. I keep the sources under /opt/sourcery, `make install` into /opt/pkgs, and use graft to manage the symlinking between that and /usr/local. Not for everybody, but it works well for me. 01:44:41 -!- laanan [~laanan@c-24-125-210-37.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:45:19 -!- yates [~yates@nc-71-54-141-32.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:49:54 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.142.134] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:51:46 -!- ihyoyoung_ [raster@enlightenment2.osuosl.org] has quit [Quit: away] 01:54:26 cheezus [~Adium@76-10-183-155.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 01:56:34 altsrid [~altsrid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:57:07 Lone_Wanderer [~Dan@209-6-38-124.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 01:59:53 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:03 jmcphers [~jmcphers@61.14.141.36] has joined #lisp 02:01:09 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@61.14.141.36] has quit [Client Quit] 02:03:12 jmcphers [~jmcphers@61.14.141.36] has joined #lisp 02:03:26 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@61.14.141.36] has quit [Client Quit] 02:06:37 -!- Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:06:46 jmcphers [~jmcphers@61.14.141.36] has joined #lisp 02:11:37 -!- Daev is now known as MeanWeen 02:20:49 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Exeunt IRC] 02:27:57 -!- ska` [~user@ppp-58-8-46-162.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:39:35 -!- gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:39:59 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:40:18 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 02:40:32 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:41:36 SBCL Random - what's the best way to initialize it? 02:43:20 colzbox [~lunchtime@S0106001346f5e870.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:53 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.235.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:44:09 -!- colzbox [~lunchtime@S0106001346f5e870.va.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 02:46:58 Haha - the UUID lib code stores the "random-state" at compile time in the executable. My compiled linux executable generates the same UUIDs as it goes. . . . 02:47:27 And when it restarts, generates the same UUIDs from scratch 02:47:46 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-124-8.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:44 -!- jmcphers is now known as zz_jmcphers 02:48:59 WarWeasle [~brad@c-98-220-121-27.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:12 -!- zz_jmcphers [~jmcphers@61.14.141.36] has quit [Quit: Leaving now.] 02:50:49 I'm guessing "no" but I'll ask - is there an idiomatic/portable way to type something in a source file that notifies an executable to execute/initialize it "on program start"? (I know this breaks the image paradigm). . . 02:51:32 I think that's implementation-dependent, like how you can specify a starting function for save-lisp-and-die in sbcl. 02:51:34 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-125-214.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:08 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-124-8.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:52:09 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 02:56:40 -!- WarWeasle [~brad@c-98-220-121-27.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:56:56 jmcphers [~jmcphers@61.14.141.36] has joined #lisp 03:00:35 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@61.14.141.36] has quit [Quit: Leaving now.] 03:00:50 codelurker [~codelurke@c-98-227-187-219.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:13 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:01:23 Modius: eval-when could be what you're looking for. 03:04:24 You probably also need to define carefully how "program start" is to be determined. Is this in a library, where something needs to be initialised after the library has been fully loaded into the runtime image, but before it's first used by the application? 03:06:38 no for update/for share support in postmodern? I cry tears of sadness. 03:07:21 gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.113.14] has joined #lisp 03:08:07 Modius: create a list of closures to be called 03:08:35 Yeah, I was just wondering if there was something people used by convention (that libraries could patch into). 03:09:07 Man, this server bug was insidious - It would take N+1 connection attempts to connect, where N = number of past successful connections max against a running instance of the server (it was putting "instance guids" in a DB) 03:10:28 -!- codelurker [~codelurke@c-98-227-187-219.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 03:12:20 -!- buguldey [~buguldey@client-202-74.sibtele.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:15:49 ArchMonkey [~ArchMonke@S0106001b63f2b998.ok.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:49 -!- humasect [~humasect@d24-235-161-86.home1.cgocable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:16:16 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:19:11 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-epuggdarasjjtins] has joined #lisp 03:19:16 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 03:21:51 daniel [~daniel@p5082956F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:22:44 SucklinPig [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-185.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:23:35 -!- daniel__ [~daniel@p5082BC81.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:24:17 -!- MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-185.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:25:23 ddp [~ddp@173-166-225-122-sacramento.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:24 jmcphers [~jmcphers@61.14.141.36] has joined #lisp 03:25:37 -!- ddp [~ddp@173-166-225-122-sacramento.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 03:27:10 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:31:37 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-182-174.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 03:32:55 dgiaimo [~dgiaimo@pool-96-237-60-243.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:20 -!- dgiaimo [~dgiaimo@pool-96-237-60-243.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:36:24 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:36:52 -!- altsrid [~altsrid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 03:39:44 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:42:20 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-65-239.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 03:43:26 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:43:27 zenlunatic [~justin@c-69-140-238-129.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:44:00 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 03:50:09 buguldey [~buguldey@client-202-171.sibtele.com] has joined #lisp 03:52:53 -!- SucklinPig is now known as CleanWeen 03:54:12 altsrid [~altsrid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:20 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-108-18-160-110.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:58:38 -!- cheezus [~Adium@76-10-183-155.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:02:06 onwee [~Virek@184.167.250.231] has joined #lisp 04:02:10 -!- onwee [~Virek@184.167.250.231] has left #lisp 04:02:19 Yuuhi` [~user@p4FC95949.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:20 astePC [~astePC@unaffiliated/aste] has joined #lisp 04:04:38 udzinari [~user@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 04:04:49 -!- tsuru [~charlie@50.9.237.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 04:05:59 -!- Yuuhi [~user@p4FC954FA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:06:52 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 04:07:36 setmeaway [setmeaway3@118.45.149.126] has joined #lisp 04:08:03 pnq [~nick@ACA22165.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 04:10:47 -!- ArchMonkey [~ArchMonke@S0106001b63f2b998.ok.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: ArchMonkey] 04:12:55 -!- frx [~xenon@76.73.16.26] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)] 04:13:53 Modius: (setq *random-state* (make-random-state t)) randomizes it 04:14:35 maxm: Yeah - a random-state that gets saved into the Executable 04:15:17 just re-randomize it.. I remember back from atari xt days, you have to start every program with randomize :-) 04:15:26 That's what I did. 04:16:43 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 04:18:57 tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:20 tsuru [~charlie@50.9.237.217] has joined #lisp 04:28:02 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:28:09 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 04:29:11 ihyoyoung [raster@enlightenment2.osuosl.org] has joined #lisp 04:38:04 oudeis [~oudeis@di8-36139.dialin.huji.ac.il] has joined #lisp 04:41:24 -!- y3llow [~y3llow@111-240-164-242.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:41:28 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-164-242.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:41:34 s0ber_ [~s0ber@111-240-164-242.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 04:41:38 y3llow_ [~y3llow@111-240-164-242.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 04:41:48 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 04:42:28 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-125-214.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:43:52 -!- y3llow_ is now known as y3llow 04:45:18 What's the best way to compare two (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8))s? 04:45:30 (byte-by-byte) 04:46:15 -!- EyesIsMine [~eyes@unaffiliated/eyesismine] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:46:29 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-134-95.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:49:03 -!- Lone_Wanderer [~Dan@209-6-38-124.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 04:50:50 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-dhhzofjzmqbhlfdr] has joined #lisp 04:50:50 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-dhhzofjzmqbhlfdr] has quit [Changing host] 04:50:50 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 04:52:39 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.134.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:53:25 oh right equalp 04:56:21 -!- Amyn1 [~abennama@cac94-2-87-91-21-215.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:01:15 EyesIsMine [~eyes@unaffiliated/eyesismine] has joined #lisp 05:05:44 HG` [~HG@p5DC05501.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:10:40 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-epuggdarasjjtins] has left #lisp 05:10:41 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.113.14] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:13:06 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA22165.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 05:13:46 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC05501.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: HG`] 05:14:46 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-69-140-238-129.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:16:36 pnq [~nick@ACA22165.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 05:19:40 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:20:08 -!- ASau [~user@93-80-104-193.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: off] 05:22:27 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: 1933] 05:25:28 Kryztof [~user@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 05:26:11 gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.113.14] has joined #lisp 05:31:11 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA22165.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:32:03 -!- altsrid [~altsrid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 05:32:39 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:33:44 -!- lanthan [~ze@p54B7BFEC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 05:33:55 pnq [~nick@ACA22165.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 05:34:38 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-wiwrhyrwmdkomceu] has joined #lisp 05:36:57 -!- buguldey [~buguldey@client-202-171.sibtele.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:40:23 zmyrgel [~user@193.64.112.22] has joined #lisp 05:41:24 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has joined #lisp 05:42:52 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-wiwrhyrwmdkomceu] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 05:47:26 Yay I wrote my first tail recursive lisp program 05:49:10 Congratulation! Let it be the last one. 05:49:48 why? 05:50:57 Because tail recursive programs are usually less readable than iterative ones or ones using ordinary recursion. 05:51:17 hm 05:53:04 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA22165.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:53:54 I don't indent my lisp 05:53:56 you mad? 05:54:26 You're going to be, when you try to read your programs in a few weeks... 05:55:07 pnq [~nick@ACA22165.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 05:55:08 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.113.14] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:01:49 -!- scrimohsin [~cms@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Quit: adieu.] 06:02:09 Amyn [~abennama@64.208.49.21] has joined #lisp 06:04:55 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:06:15 ArchMonkey [~ArchMonke@S0106001b63f2b998.ok.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:07:36 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 06:11:24 -!- fihi09 [~user@pool-96-224-163-14.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:11:43 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:12:13 -!- ArchMonkey [~ArchMonke@S0106001b63f2b998.ok.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: ArchMonkey] 06:13:27 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:16:24 -!- gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:16:48 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 06:17:12 gaze__ [440675b9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.6.117.185] has joined #lisp 06:18:49 Hey, let's say I want a way to reinvoke functions if the VM dies mid execution. I'm talking about wrapping them in a macro such that when I call it, the arguments and some handle on the function gets dumped out somewhere, so upon resuming the program, something scrubs that database and resumes those functions. 06:18:59 any suggestions as far as the lispiest way to go about this? 06:19:10 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 06:21:12 Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 06:21:48 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:22:46 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-134-95.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 06:22:49 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 06:23:41 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:26:43 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:28:10 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:28:29 -!- Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:29:47 scrimohsin [~cms@static-50-43-53-7.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 06:29:50 -!- scrimohsin [~cms@static-50-43-53-7.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Changing host] 06:29:50 scrimohsin [~cms@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 06:29:53 gaze__: whether a macro is required is probably an empirical matter, but it sounds like you want to wrap this around a list (vector, whatever suits) that gets serialised every time it's updated, and use something that deserialises the list on startup and then iterates over it. 06:32:17 sounds reasonable 06:34:08 if I (def a (fn [] crap)) (def b 2) (def c 3), I need (a b c) to be serialized to ([handle on a] 2 3) though, I suppose 06:34:27 not sure what the best way to represent that handle on the function would be... how to come up with them, etc. 06:34:57 maybe just a table mapping the function name to the symbol somewhere? 06:35:40 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:35:53 good morning 06:35:54 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@di8-36139.dialin.huji.ac.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 06:35:55 ngz [~user@80.105.193.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 06:36:30 The problem is serialising the functions, yes. You could store them as lists like ('myfunc arg1 arg2 arg3) and whack them with append; it gets a bit trickier if you want to store closures or actual function objects. 06:36:39 Hi, mvilleneuve 06:37:11 Where, by "whack them with append," what I *meant* was "whack them with apply" 06:37:18 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 06:37:35 no, nothing too tricky 06:38:41 As long as you're only ever calling on functions that can be reliably called by name, and the arguments can all be serialised, then it should be easy enough to do. 06:38:42 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 06:39:47 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA22165.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:40:34 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:41:13 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 06:42:21 pnq [~nick@ACA22165.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 06:45:24 gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.113.14] has joined #lisp 06:47:55 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-40-157.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:48:18 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.86.170] has joined #lisp 06:48:28 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 06:49:21 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:49:31 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-106-243.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:50:11 jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-92.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:51:24 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.176.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:52:06 (defun my-length (lst) 06:52:07 (if (endp lst) 0 (+ 1 (my-length (rest lst)))) 06:52:07 ) 06:52:09 waaaaaargh_ [~waaaaargh@agsb-4d048d6d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:52:33 have you read your SICP today? 06:55:34 -!- waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d87ebc1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:01:11 frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-96-233.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 07:06:03 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440055.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 07:06:24 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-92.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:06:41 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA22165.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:07:06 -!- H4ns`` is now known as H4ns 07:07:41 pnq [~nick@ACA22165.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 07:09:52 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:11:32 (defun my-length (lst) (let ((i 0)) (dolist (k list) (incf i)) i)) 07:16:51 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.178.193] has joined #lisp 07:18:20 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 07:20:31 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-154-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:20:34 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:20:53 zomg missing parentheisi 07:20:56 is the bane of my life 07:21:00 parenthesis 07:21:54 marsell [~marsell@120.18.146.23] has joined #lisp 07:22:09 astePC: Why do you call your parameter "lst" rather than "list"? 07:22:24 because list is a function 07:22:31 (list blah) 07:22:36 but CL is a lisp-2 07:22:45 so function identifiers are in a different namespace 07:22:46 what is a lisp-2 07:23:03 oudeis [~oudeis@di8-36139.dialin.huji.ac.il] has joined #lisp 07:24:17 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 07:25:57 astePC: A lisp in which ordinary variables and function names are in different namespaces. 07:26:07 hm 07:26:13 I'm not sure I have that 07:26:16 astePC: So that there is no conflict between the function named "list" and the parameter named "list". 07:26:26 I'm using a german website 07:26:31 astePC: All Common Lisps do that. 07:26:31 german university 07:26:48 they have their lisp on their computer, I don't know what lisp it is 07:28:02 astePC: If you are not using Common Lisp, and even more so if you don't know what dialect of Lisp you are using, it is going to be hard ask questions and get advice here. 07:28:56 -!- ngz [~user@80.105.193.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:30:02 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@di8-36139.dialin.huji.ac.il] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 07:31:03 (defun my-remove (ex arg) 07:31:03 (cond 07:31:03 ((endp arg) NIL) 07:31:03 ((equal ex (first arg)) (my-remove ex (rest arg))) 07:31:03 (T (cons (first arg) (my-remove ex (rest arg)))) 07:31:04 ) 07:31:06 ) 07:31:13 astePC: please do not paste code to this channel 07:31:30 astePC: this is not a homework discussion channel. we're glad to talk about common lisp. 07:35:05 buguldey [~buguldey@client-71-218.sibtele.com] has joined #lisp 07:35:41 astePC: Furthermore, never put ")" by itself on a line, in fact never have whitespace before ")". 07:35:55 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 07:36:00 oh 07:39:25 http://paste.lisp.org/display/124474 07:39:27 this better? 07:39:36 tarmil`` [~user@109.74.51.29] has joined #lisp 07:40:35 lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:40:49 astePC: No, the "))" on the last line should be at the end of hte previous line. 07:41:04 ok 07:41:25 astePC: But I assume you know that you are programming functions that already exist, right? 07:41:31 yes 07:41:42 I wonder why someone would do that... hmm 07:42:01 Microsoft Lisp 07:42:09 gaze__: The typical reason is that some teachers like to give homework assignments like that. 07:42:10 we're making a new entry into visual studio 07:42:21 MSLISP++ 07:42:46 the need a core library 07:42:47 beach: I was being facetious 07:43:11 -!- tarmil` [~user@109.74.51.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:43:50 -!- cheier [~amedueces@c-76-107-19-58.hsd1.ms.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:44:07 MSLISP# ? 07:44:11 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA22165.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:44:29 something like that 07:45:37 -!- buguldey [~buguldey@client-71-218.sibtele.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:45:44 http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/files/donkey.bas.txt 07:45:53 Billy's donkey game 07:47:53 buguldey [~buguldey@client-70-240.sibtele.com] has joined #lisp 07:49:54 http://paste.lisp.org/display/124475 getting better? 07:50:02 or still fugly? 07:50:25 astePC: still ugly. 07:50:33 what did I do wrong? 07:50:43 the formatting or the actual code? 07:51:01 astePC: both. and furthermore, you are ignoring the fact that this is not a channel to improve your homework. 07:52:30 ngz [~user@80.105.193.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 07:56:49 miragi [~mir@ppp-94-65-118-108.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 07:58:12 Hello! I am currently learning Common Lisp, using the Land of Lisp book. Besides improving your programming thinking that Lisp claims to do, is there today a place for lisp in designing programs for computational biology / bioinformatics? 07:59:19 Hello miragi 07:59:20 miragi: common lisp is a general purpose programming language. it is not designed to support one particular problem field or application area. 07:59:50 miragi: it more depends on your peers and your own wishes whether it "has a place" today :) 08:00:16 well technically any language sufficiently complex would satisfy the question criteria 08:00:44 Does it reduce to a turing machine? 08:00:52 then yes, it can be your langauge 08:00:57 language* 08:01:03 -!- buguldey [~buguldey@client-70-240.sibtele.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:01:09 choice of language is really dependant on your freedom to choose the language and whether or not you are bound by supply and demand of the marketplace 08:01:17 holycow: not necessarily. there are application areas where a lot of knowledge is capture in existing code, in a particular language. 08:01:40 i shall deffer to that, yes indeed 08:02:40 Thank you for your answer! Before Lisp, I used to program in Perl and the first thing I was told was that Perl's power is in manipulating text. In that sense, Lisp's power is in being more and more extensible? 08:03:01 miragi: that is certainly true. 08:03:05 -!- replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:03:07 it's a programmable programming language 08:03:25 you can implement perl's magic if you want 08:03:28 replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 08:03:31 miragi: lisp has little boundaries on the programming language level, so if you need to extend your language, you can do that seamlessly. 08:04:08 Thank you very much! :) 08:04:36 miragi: personally, I find that Lisp's power is in the way it suits my preference to condense an idea to its most concise representation, wherein repetition looks like a bug. 08:06:08 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.86.170] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:06:16 Aha, I get it. :) 08:07:01 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.86.170] has joined #lisp 08:07:32 dbushenko [~dim@86.57.253.61] has joined #lisp 08:08:01 buguldey [~buguldey@client-65-177.sibtele.com] has joined #lisp 08:08:31 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 08:08:39 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-182-174.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:09:07 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 08:11:31 The development and debugging cycle is winner. Everything else is minor gravy in my humble opinion. 08:12:22 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:13:08 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 08:15:15 -!- miragi [~mir@ppp-94-65-118-108.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Quit: ] 08:16:07 marsell: that part certainly doesn't hurt, either :) 08:16:49 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:18:01 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qqcygmpywjwgaopc] has joined #lisp 08:18:23 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:19:21 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 08:19:30 oudeis [~oudeis@di8-36139.dialin.huji.ac.il] has joined #lisp 08:32:55 _3b, therep 08:33:26 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@di8-36139.dialin.huji.ac.il] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 08:36:41 -!- Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:37:24 Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 08:37:39 -!- benny [~benny@i577A30E3.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:38:25 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 08:41:33 Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.206.27] has joined #lisp 08:47:28 http://paste.lisp.org/display/124476 getting lispy yet? 08:54:55 oudeis [~oudeis@di8-36139.dialin.huji.ac.il] has joined #lisp 08:56:24 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 08:59:51 astePC: (find 'x '(1 2 3 x 5)) 09:01:03 Wrong channel, sorry. 09:01:20 e-user [~e-user@nat/nokia/x-mylcolcxgrwdiaal] has joined #lisp 09:01:30 -!- hba [~hba@187.171.203.4] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:03:08 Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.176.104] has joined #lisp 09:08:30 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.176.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:08:50 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 09:09:54 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 09:10:40 Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.176.104] has joined #lisp 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#lisp 11:11:16 zardoz8 [~zardoz8@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 11:13:18 setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.182] has joined #lisp 11:14:29 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.182] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:15:40 oudeis [~oudeis@87.68.87.75] has joined #lisp 11:16:01 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:16:29 new lisp users have this obsession with writing "lispy" code 11:16:36 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 11:17:55 imho sometimes to the extreme point. Use the library, (find 'x list :test #'equal) 11:17:59 ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 11:18:20 use (loop) or better yet (iterate) 11:19:15 well in some cases new lisp users are deliberately trying to do something different 11:19:30 well I guess its ok if you just trying to learn stuff 11:22:52 killerstorm [~alex_mizr@195.225.156.93] has joined #lisp 11:26:19 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qqcygmpywjwgaopc] has left #lisp 11:31:53 and sometimes they want to find 'x in the tree, not the list 11:31:53 setmeaway [stemearay@119.201.52.182] has joined #lisp 11:32:00 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:32:50 -!- leo2007 [~leo@58.22.113.196] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 11:33:03 -!- waaaaaargh_ [~waaaaargh@agsb-4d048d6d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:33:08 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 11:35:15 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 11:35:15 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:36:24 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:47:15 -!- udzinari [~user@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:47:39 -!- EyesIsMine [~eyes@unaffiliated/eyesismine] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:49:23 -!- xan_ [~xan@217.41.230.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:50:55 sunwukong [~vukung@t1.iit.bme.hu] has joined #lisp 11:55:12 How do you do a comment in lisp? 11:55:40 ; cooment 11:56:01 some implementations support multi-line comments like #| 11:56:03 this on 11:56:04 |# 11:56:11 -!- killerstorm [~alex_mizr@195.225.156.93] has left #lisp 11:56:20 astePC: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/ 11:56:47 astePC: That's the full standard of hte language, freely accessable and downloadable. 11:59:35 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-65-239.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 12:00:15 topeak [~topeak@118.186.129.184] has joined #lisp 12:07:51 xyxu [~xyxu@58.247.118.106] has joined #lisp 12:08:17 is there a nicer way to write - (map #(get %1 "name") (db/query ...)) 12:08:32 khaliG: this is #lisp. #clojure is => there 12:08:38 oops, right you are :) 12:08:48 How do I make a variable 12:09:05 astePC: you read a book. 12:09:08 z0d: some implementations? 12:09:52 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:10:01 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 12:10:53 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.247.118.106] has quit [Client Quit] 12:10:55 xyxu1 [~xyxu@58.247.118.106] has joined #lisp 12:11:35 zmv [~daniel@c95334de.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 12:12:08 H4ns: are you always this hostile? jesus christ 12:12:17 dsp_: yes. 12:13:48 dsp_: obviously, i'd not call myself "hostile", but i'm not in a particularily bad mood today. 12:15:10 interesting. do you speak like that to people in person, too? 12:15:33 -!- xyxu1 [~xyxu@58.247.118.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:15:52 you should know that it's rude and unwelcoming, and is likely to drive people away 12:16:00 dsp_: yes. if someone walks into a room in which i'm hanging out and behaves inappropriately, i let him or her know that i consider his behaviour inappropriate. 12:16:09 i consider your behaviour inappropriate 12:16:23 dsp_: what exactly is it that you don't like? 12:17:02 dsp_: then, please use /msg to discuss. i think this is going to be off-topic. 12:17:11 what exactly is on-topic? 12:17:16 dsp_: common lisp 12:17:27 such as, asking how to declare a variable? 12:18:02 you wouldn't walk into #c and ask the same question, would you? 12:18:09 perhaps a book recommendation would be more helpful than the blunt reply, which is 100% unhelpful, and as i said, hostile 12:18:11 dsp_: i'd say this is off-topic, given the previous conversation. 12:18:23 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:18:57 dsp_: he got his recommendations before, but he was unwilling to continue on that path. he also expressed that he is not interested in common lisp and does not even know what lisp he uses, as it just was for his homework assignment. 12:19:58 there is a sort of beginners lisp channel, isn't there? 12:20:06 though I'm not sure if anyone actually uses it these days 12:20:07 #lispcafe, iirc. 12:20:09 he's dead, jim 12:20:09 replore_ [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:20:11 -!- replore_ [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:21:16 so, i take it this channel is not social, not for beginners either -- what is it for? 12:21:21 it really is not obvious from the topic 12:21:46 dsp_: just sit, read, learn. 12:21:51 -!- buguldey [~buguldey@client-65-177.sibtele.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:21:56 I thought #lispcafe was a social one not a beginners' one. This channel is fine for beginners but it is also used by experts, who don't have a high tolerance for beginners not doing their homework 12:21:57 idling channel for leet lispers who know everything 12:22:06 obviously 12:22:38 try #idlerpg 12:22:39 beginners' questions are fine; regulars will not take kindly to answering questions that could be answered by reading well-known documents 12:22:41 more fun 12:22:41 astePC: leet or not, we read books. 12:22:57 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-154-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:23:09 clap clap.....clap 12:23:29 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Kryztof 12:23:37 -!- Kryztof has set mode +b *!~astePC@unaffiliated/aste 12:23:37 -!- astePC [~user@csrhodes.plus.com] has been kicked from #lisp by Kryztof (yay,) 12:23:47 hm, that didn't quite work 12:23:53 "/kickban astePC yay, a chance to test my ERC command" 12:23:53 eyes_ [~eyes@unaffiliated/eyesismine] has joined #lisp 12:23:55 It's the thought that counts. 12:24:21 Xach: ? 12:24:24 *g* 12:24:37 z0d: all implementations should accept multiline comments with #| |# 12:25:02 ok, well, so much for pasting elisp into my ~/.emacs from the web and expecting it to work 12:26:16 xan_ [~xan@65.Red-83-39-56.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:35:20 Anyone know a tool or good discussion of the design thereof for sanitizing user-supplied HTML? 12:36:02 Ralith: turns out to be trickier than you'd think 12:36:26 that is what I thought, actually, which is why I'm trying to find an existing solution rather than winging it. 12:36:45 Ralith: I'm using the one that comes with the universal feed parser. 12:36:50 Ralith: using a full parser can help, but then you hav the possibility of security bugs in the parser 12:36:52 it's not as simple as just allowing certain attributes, because people can put evil things in the attributes 12:37:15 such as? 12:37:20 Ralith: javascript 12:37:26 Ralith: 12:37:27 I tend to just take the easy road and make the users enter stuff in markdown or bbcode or something 12:37:38 which are comparatively easy to sanitise 12:37:56 Xach: never heard of that, googling 12:38:27 Xach: python? 12:38:54 rsynnott: it seems like one could have a reasonable amount of success just making a strict whitelist analogous to bbcode-with-angle-brackets 12:39:44 maybe just clear what you mean by "sanitize" and apply it as a set of rules 12:40:09 I've never seen a HTML sanitiser library which doesn't periodically have major holes showing up 12:40:41 I suppose I was unclear; I'm not looking to permit all of html 12:40:51 a bbcode-like subset is more what I had in mind 12:41:08 *JuanDaugherty* chafes at a lot of the usages of expressions like "clean" and "sane". 12:41:39 I'm aiming for something functionally similar to bbcode, just using syntax that isn't unnecessarily distinct 12:41:41 *just get clear 12:41:51 about 12:42:03 -!- borkamaniac is now known as Borkman 12:42:35 and I'd rather not implement a parser for such if there's appropriate code already out there 12:43:30 rstandy [~rastandy@93-63-185-248.ip29.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:46:12 JuanDaugherty: is that clear enough? 12:47:22 only you can decide. For me acceptable by some program would certainly be in the area of "clear". 12:47:46 (assume bbcode is a program/lang) 12:48:28 what 12:48:46 Ralith: the feed parser whitelists tags and attributes 12:49:25 Could anyone explain what did McCarthy mean by his words: “I don’t know enough for example about Ruby to know in what way it’s related to Lisp. Does it use, for example, list structures as data. So if you want to compute with sums and products, you have to parse every time? So, in that respect Ruby still isn’t up to where Lisp was in 1960.” 12:50:20 well McCarthy must be in his 80s 12:50:29 dbushenko: looks to me as the "program is data" feature of lisp 12:50:31 benny [~benny@i577A73D8.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:50:39 I give people like McCarthy, Chomsky some slack on that account 12:50:47 -!- zmyrgel [~user@193.64.112.22] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:50:50 dbushenko: namely, that the program is read only once (by lisp reader) 12:51:08 Xach: that sounds appropriate, though I'm not sure the complexity of calling out to python is worth it for my relatively simple purposes 12:51:21 ruby 1.8 works by traversing an AST at runtime; possibly a reference to that? 12:51:29 dbushenko: and later macros can be used to transform the program (as data) 12:51:30 jdz, but ruby program is also read only once: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Sum_and_product_of_an_array#Ruby 12:51:44 gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:52:02 jdz, may be you're right about the macros 12:52:08 dbushenko: really? so how come people do metaprogramming in Ruby by concatenating tons of strings? 12:52:19 jdz: well, they CAN do that 12:52:24 (you can do it in lisp, too) 12:52:28 they just probably shouldn't 12:52:29 jdz, oh no, I meant just the example of sums and products 12:52:40 the metaprogramming in ruby sucs 12:53:13 dbushenko: sums and products in McCarthy's quote would probably be something like: (+ (* 1 2) (* 3 (+ 4 5))) 12:53:21 (there are nicer approaches to metaprogramming in ruby by evaluating strings built at runtime, but it's distressingly common nonetheless) 12:54:04 rsynnott: I saw such a code in ActiveRecord for methods like find_by_... 12:54:16 ugh 12:54:19 it's slow bcs is evaluated in runtime 12:54:27 I'd imagine it's been removed by now? 12:54:28 dbushenko: Ruby 1.8 had no compiler at all. I mean even to a slightly more than AST dump like CPython. 12:55:02 jdz: good example! thanks! 12:55:15 in ruby 1.8 evaling strings at runtime wasn't actually a huge performance it, because it's so close to a pure interpreted language 12:55:19 *hit 12:55:23 that's not the case in 1.9 12:55:34 rsynnott: afaik it was "only adds the cost of parsing the string" 12:55:37 Ralith: i wrote a python program that dumps sexps to a file. i call it with sb-ext:run-program. 12:55:41 Ralith: that's how planet lisp works. 12:55:46 p_l|backup: in 1.8, yep, pretty much 12:56:06 dbushenko: check this out: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-16.html#%_sec_2.3 12:56:10 Xach: yeah, found your forum post. I'll give it a closer look if I can't work out a simpler solution. Thanks, though. 12:56:33 dbushenko: quite possibly McCarthy also meant "generic" sums and products done through higher-order functions et al. SICP has some examples 12:56:44 jdz, OMG, its SICP! :-) 12:57:08 dbushenko: it's good, right? 12:57:32 yep, I've read it, even the chapter 4 12:58:02 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-134-95.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:12 I just tried to understand what exactly McCarthy meant. I though he was talking about applying one function to a list of parameters 12:58:25 jdz: but I didn't think about (+ (* 1 2) (* 3 (+ 4 5))) 12:58:35 so that's a good example for code as data 12:59:40 btw, how about ruby 1.9? As it has compiler now, evaluating raw strings should make the code much slower than the compiled version? 12:59:55 anyone have any thoughts on meta-sexp? 13:02:13 Xach: why did you need python for Planet Lisp? 13:03:04 dwim [~dwim@207.Red-79-146-127.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:53 dbushenko: I didn't want to write a feed parser from scratch. 13:04:03 Xach, ah, I see 13:04:50 It would be easier to do today 13:07:09 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.131] has quit [Quit: Offline] 13:07:11 dbushenko: it got better, iirc, but in the process their eval is nowadays much slower :) 13:07:51 :-) Ruby metaprogramming is broken and cannot be fixed! :-) 13:08:45 gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.113.14] has joined #lisp 13:14:17 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.179.169] has joined #lisp 13:18:45 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:22:30 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:22:51 note to self: cells-gtk is crap 13:27:33 hahahaha 13:29:03 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has left #lisp 13:30:44 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@87.68.87.75] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:31:06 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-mvvqwvnxqutcwenu] has joined #lisp 13:31:06 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-mvvqwvnxqutcwenu] has quit [Changing host] 13:31:06 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 13:34:11 pnq [~nick@AC811CCE.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 13:34:17 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Client Quit] 13:35:01 non-obvious control flows based on triggers -> re-implementing excel, together with all its problems 13:35:41 the idea itself isn't bad, but Cells implemented it rather... kenny-like? ;P 13:36:38 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-oechcqutvcsqkodn] has joined #lisp 13:36:38 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-oechcqutvcsqkodn] has quit [Changing host] 13:36:38 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 13:37:35 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:37:37 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.113.14] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:38:12 funnily enough I'm saying this because I'm working on code that does something similar, and finding that just dumbly doing "ok i've changed, notify all listeners" can get you into trouble, unless you put a lot of thought into it 13:40:44 ie I have time series A, there is a series B which calculates value over A, then C which calculates value over B. I'm adding a generic framework for quickly defining new formulas, part of it are binary and trinary operators (ie time series X = abs difference of parents).. But if I just dumbly update all listeners, X will get updated twice.. So its non-trivial thing, need to actually work some graph walking code in 13:41:01 maxm: try Haskell's reactive systems... they had to implement the concept of time in relation to code 13:41:18 -!- sunwukong [~vukung@t1.iit.bme.hu] has quit [Quit: bye] 13:42:27 udzinari [~user@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 13:43:52 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:43:52 tfb [~tfb@80.238.0.145] has joined #lisp 13:45:35 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:46:55 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440055.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:47:13 -!- udzinari [~user@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:50:04 LiamH [~nobody@pool-108-18-160-110.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:14 ugoubuntu [~ugoubuntu@119.59.128.27] has joined #lisp 13:52:26 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.179.169] has quit [Quit: Offline] 13:53:55 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440156.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:56:57 when would one use flet/labels? or, why use that instead of a package with private symbols? 13:57:23 ("global" functions have the advantage of being independently testable; it's not so straightforward to test a flet/labels function) 13:58:27 zvrba: they're mostly a matter of style. 13:58:59 zvrba: when you need functions which can see non-global state 13:59:05 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.179.169] has joined #lisp 13:59:05 zvrba: some projects live in few or one package, making very special-purpose functions on the toplevel unwanted 13:59:09 tfb: ah! good point! 13:59:33 tfb: any advice on testing local functions? 14:00:16 zvrba: nothing useful, unfortunately. 14:00:40 zvrba: if you want to test functions, don't make them local. 14:01:42 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-23-154.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:01:44 zvrba: H4ns is right I think - the atom of testing is the top-level definition, sort-of 14:01:51 yeah, that was exactly my thought. if it is (should be) testable, it should be a global function. 14:02:21 or possibly if you have a particle accelerator, of course. 14:05:08 -!- dbushenko [~dim@86.57.253.61] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:05:24 tfb: hmm? 14:05:40 i didn't get that one about particle accelerator 14:06:04 splitting the atoms of top-level definitions (OK not a good analogy) 14:06:39 a little far-fetched maybe :) 14:07:11 tfb: my first thought was actually splitting of elementary particles :) 14:07:30 anyway. 14:08:37 i found it convenient to use local functions instead of complicated lambdas. a well chosen name can make the code using it more readable than just a lambda dumped into the argument position. 14:09:11 compilers can more aggressively infer things about local functions (which can't practically be redefined) than about global ones (which can be more or less arbitrarily redefined) 14:09:18 zvrba: also if the function needs to recurse, you kind of need LABELS unless you want to write completely mad code 14:10:06 tfb: hmm? which function? example? 14:10:55 silenius [~silenius@pD4B9EC11.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:58 the local function: what I meant was if you want a recursive local fn then it's gratuitously hard to do that with just LAMBDA 14:11:06 Kryztof: ah, performance is a bonus then. i was actually surprised that funcall also accepts a symbol! 14:11:21 MimiEA [~Mimi@97-88-37-119.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 14:11:41 (and symbol can be dynamically rebound to other functions. kinda self-modifying code, which is cool :)) 14:12:03 tfb: yeah. 14:12:58 hmm. /me tries something 14:14:44 cheezus [~Adium@76-10-183-155.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 14:15:23 wow. it is possible to (setf *global-symbol* #'local-labels-fn) and call it afterwards. it even captures the closure :) 14:15:26 -!- CleanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-185.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:16:19 *zvrba* got some crazy ideas :) 14:17:05 like, dynamically-scoped functions. cool. 14:17:54 -!- Evanescence [~chris@122.237.26.225] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 14:22:11 -!- churib [~user@95.156.194.105] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:24:14 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 14:26:38 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 14:27:00 churib [~user@95.156.194.105] has joined #lisp 14:27:25 urandom__ [~user@p548A490F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:26 wbooze`` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-194-140.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:27:35 homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-194-140.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:29:49 -!- wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-135-118.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:30:23 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-135-118.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:31:22 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:31:54 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.159.228] has joined #lisp 14:35:24 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 14:36:24 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-134-95.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:41:14 nefo [~nefo@61.184.206.211] has joined #lisp 14:41:14 -!- nefo [~nefo@61.184.206.211] has quit [Changing host] 14:41:14 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 14:42:17 -!- cheezus [~Adium@76-10-183-155.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:50:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-25-142.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 14:50:08 -!- homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-194-140.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:50:08 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-25-142.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 14:50:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:50:12 -!- wbooze`` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-194-140.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:50:16 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.179.169] has quit [Quit: Offline] 14:51:30 p_l|backup, that's not the problem with the dataflow model, it's the brittleness of cells-gtk 14:51:41 and undocumentedness, and unfriedliness to autodoc 14:51:56 -!- silenius [~silenius@pD4B9EC11.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:52:02 -!- Elench is now known as iSpy 14:52:08 weirdo: shortly: kennyness. It was written for his use and afaik never really worked for outside 14:52:18 -!- iSpy is now known as Elench 14:52:27 still, I credit him and Cells with finally getting me over to CL 14:52:40 cells is a nightmare 14:52:41 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.179.169] has joined #lisp 14:52:55 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-194-140.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:53:00 just sayin' 14:53:02 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-194-140.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:53:18 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:53:47 what isn't? 14:54:12 chocolate cake? 14:54:14 spradnyesh [~pradyus@117.192.49.130] has joined #lisp 14:54:19 unless you eat too much of it :( 14:54:42 I never found a limit with chocolate... 14:56:52 try harder 14:57:05 Well, 4 kg, already... 14:57:14 milanj [~milanj_@109-93-129-148.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 14:58:38 D: 14:58:53 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@117.192.49.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:59:07 I thought only betazoids would be able to survive that kind of chocolate intake. 14:59:35 Joreji [~thomas@77-23-251-130-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 14:59:47 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.179.169] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 15:00:12 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.179.169] has joined #lisp 15:01:10 -!- ugoubuntu [~ugoubuntu@119.59.128.27] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:01:21 -!- paul0 [~paul0@189.114.203.150.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:03:21 silenius [~silenius@pD4B9EC11.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:24 hmm I noticed that on both SBCL and ECL, string comparison functions (i.e. STRING=) will not signal an error when NIL is given as a string designator; yet when reading the Hyperspec definition of string designator, it doesn't mention nil. Does someone here know more about this? 15:04:46 phadthai: NIL is a symbol. 15:04:50 phadthai: its symbol name is "NIL". 15:05:01 (string= "NIL" nil) => t 15:05:07 so string= actually receives (symbol-name nil) then 15:05:15 oh thanks 15:05:17 phadthai: that is how string designators are described 15:08:05 -!- DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:08:10 paul0 [~paul0@189.114.207.94.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 15:08:54 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.131] has joined #lisp 15:13:27 cheezus [~Adium@76-10-183-155.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 15:14:06 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-nzkbiruwiypngflv] has joined #lisp 15:14:49 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-2-150-45.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:56 DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #lisp 15:19:34 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-106-243.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:29 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 15:23:35 -!- katesmith_ [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:24:02 katesmith [~katesmith@97-89-229-3.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 15:24:02 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@97-89-229-3.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 15:24:02 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 15:25:18 -!- khaliG [~khali@203.171.126.201.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:28:34 -!- pnq [~nick@AC811CCE.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:28:54 -!- ngz [~user@80.105.193.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:30:20 ingvar [ingvar@83.105.81.130] has joined #lisp 15:30:29 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 15:30:53 -!- ingvar [ingvar@83.105.81.130] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:31:19 ingvar [ingvar@83.105.81.130] has joined #lisp 15:33:25 fe[nl]ix / attila_lendvai: Am I doing something wrong here? http://paste.lisp.org/display/124487 15:33:56 -!- churib [~user@95.156.194.105] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:34:40 sellout: maybe you moved the compiled iolib from one machine to another and tried to load? 15:34:56 sellout: try egrep 'extern.+environ' /usr/include/unistd.h 15:35:23 fe[nl]ix: nothing. 15:35:36 attila_lendvai: I didn't  just installed iolib via quicklisp. 15:35:46 sellout: is that on OSX ? 15:35:50 fe[nl]ix: It is. 15:36:31 wow 15:36:43 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:38:26 MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-30-150.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:38 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.159.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:39:05 fe[nl]ix: The only place I see "extern char **environ" under /usr/include is in php.h  which is obviously not what I want. This is on Lion, specifically. 15:39:53 sellout: please send me a tarball of your /usr/include 15:40:15 I'll probably have to rewrite parts of iolib.os :( 15:40:17 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:40:19 fe[nl]ix: http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/2458 15:41:25 -!- dacoda [~user@gate.cdc.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:41:36 I see 15:42:32 -!- zmv [~daniel@c95334de.virtua.com.br] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:42:42 I'd still like to have those headers, if you don't mind 15:42:56 fe[nl]ix: Sure, doing that now  15:43:46 -!- acelent [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:43:48 altsrid [~altsrid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:03 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-nzkbiruwiypngflv] has left #lisp 15:45:03 fe[nl]ix: @c-l.net? 15:45:26 @cddr.org 15:46:54 sent 15:47:35 thanks 15:48:09 it seems a lot of different systems have been having breakage /w Lion. 15:48:10 -!- cheezus [~Adium@76-10-183-155.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:49:00 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:49:09 I'm definitely staying away until the next point release. 15:49:11 -!- rstandy [~rastandy@93-63-185-248.ip29.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:49:20 but everyone else, please upgrade and shake bugs out ASAP. 15:49:25 :D 15:49:25 Fade: Supposedly this has been a problem since Leopard (according to the Haskell bug), but I haven't run into it before, and I'm _pretty_ sure I've been using IOLib in that time. 15:51:19 FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 15:51:35 -!- Amyn [~abennama@64.208.49.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:53:08 -!- eyes_ is now known as EesIsServer 15:53:18 -!- EesIsServer is now known as EyesIsServer 15:56:04 -!- FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:58:41 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:58:50 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-84-108-108-191.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:00 sellout: a fix is coming 15:59:47 jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-92.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:59:49 fe[nl]ix: Sweet. Fast turnaround :) 16:02:54 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:04:10 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:04:25 francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has joined #lisp 16:04:58 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:05:59 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 16:06:36 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.159.228] has joined #lisp 16:08:25 pavelludiq [~pavelludi@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 16:08:28 ngz [~user@80.105.193.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:42 cheezus [~Adium@76-10-183-155.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 16:08:56 -!- drdo` is now known as drdo 16:09:54 interestingly, 10.7 headers purport to implement posix 1003.1-2008 without having clock_gettime() 16:09:55 bah 16:10:44 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.86.170] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:11:38 -!- silenius [~silenius@pD4B9EC11.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:11:40 -!- zardoz8 [~zardoz8@76.73.16.26] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC (Session timeout)] 16:11:54 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.179.169] has quit [Quit: Offline] 16:12:34 manuel_ [~manuel@xdsl-78-34-129-170.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:12:43 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-30-150.as13285.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:13:00 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:13:07 MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-30-150.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:29 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-84-108-108-191.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:13:38 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 16:13:57 silenius [~silenius@p4FFC99E6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:31 I like how Google's C++ style guide gives as an example of a proper variable name "with no abbreviations": int num_dns_connections. With a the comment "Most people know what 'DNS' stands for.". Uh, 'num', guys? 16:14:31 16:14:44 -!- DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:16:04 -!- francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:16:25 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:20:45 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:26:33 Vivitron [~user@pool-108-7-56-243.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:35 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-106-243.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:27:55 gigamonkey: hehe 16:28:01 pnq [~nick@AC82C89D.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 16:28:45 acelent [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has joined #lisp 16:29:04 -!- acelent [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has left #lisp 16:29:07 acelent [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has joined #lisp 16:29:12 -!- acelent [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has left #lisp 16:29:37 -!- dwim 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quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:12:14 FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 17:14:21 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:14:33 acelent [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has joined #lisp 17:14:52 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@ip68-109-29-26.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:34 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@ip68-109-29-26.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:15:56 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 17:17:51 jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.8.103] has joined #lisp 17:19:23 Joreji [~thomas@77-23-251-130-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 17:21:28 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:24:05 rstandy [~rastandy@net-2-32-112-140.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 17:27:12 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 17:31:34 mcspiff [~user@CPE78cd8ec16698-CM78cd8ec16695.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:32:17 cnl [~cnl@95.106.23.14] has joined #lisp 17:33:11 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:33:26 fooo [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 17:36:19 dwim [~dwim@207.Red-79-146-127.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:48 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-40-157.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:59 does anyone know the most efficient way to do change the type of a node in an cxml document? something like test -> test 17:37:06 xpath seems like overkill 17:37:21 I'd like to get my hands on a dead tree copy of Graham's On Lisp or Norvig's PoAIP - is there a better place to try than amazon (noticing that amazon's used copies of On Lisp is > $100, which is not in budget) ? 17:37:34 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:37:45 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:38:11 mcspiff: use a sax-parser that invokes a sax-writer that filters elements named "b" to "c" 17:38:13 -!- fooo is now known as eli 17:38:19 err 17:38:22 wccoder: on lisp hardcopies are wildly overpriced 17:38:34 implement a sax-filter 17:38:45 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.8.103] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:38:57 acelent: that would only work when the document was parsed tho, correct? 17:38:58 and chain it like this: sax-reader -> your-sax-filter -> sax-writer 17:39:03 -!- eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:39:12 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 17:39:25 mcspiff: so would xpath 17:39:38 I've changed a macro. Is there a way to force asdf to recompile only my one project, or just the macro's dependencies? 17:39:58 sykopomp: (asdf:load-system "my-project") 17:40:18 sykopomp: when you say "just the macro's dependencies", do you mean on a function level? 17:40:23 or something else? 17:40:28 Xach: yeah, is there a better way of getting one (i've posted in CL) that is reasonably priced? 17:40:34 acelent: really? you can't supply a dom or stp to the xslt functions? 17:40:41 mcspiff: alternatively, use klacks to pull tokens, translating "b" elements to "c" and then call the a xml writer 17:40:46 I mean files where the macro is used (and has already been macroexpanded) 17:40:54 wccoder: not that i know of. 17:41:00 ...but I guess a plain load-system most likely does the trick. I must be confused. 17:41:33 sykopomp: if you are explicit about dependencies, you can minimize the number of files recompiled. if you use :serial t, make sure your macro-defining file comes before its dependencies... 17:41:34 mcspiff: oh, you have a document in-memory. sorry, i was assuming you got it from a stream 17:41:47 Xach: yikes. one of the downsides to living on an island where there are few hackers, let alone lisp hackers. 17:42:00 acelent: nope, my fault for not being clearer. I'm walking a dom, and depending on the content of a node, it may need its node type changed. 17:42:56 wccoder: i can understand the appeal of a physical book, but On Lisp is available online so it's not a total tragedy. 17:43:06 Xach: thanks. I don't know why I was thinking I needed to take special care when it was a macro redefinition. 17:43:30 acelent: I was trying to create a new node, copy the children of the old node over and replace the original with that, but it seems like I always just end up with instead of what im expecting 17:44:27 HG` [~HG@p5DC04C81.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:44 mcspiff: can you paste the children copy and the replacement code? 17:46:59 -!- lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:47:03 mcspiff: you don't have to copy the children, just remove them from b and append them to c 17:47:27 mcspiff: then remove b and insert c in a 17:47:50 acelent: hmm that's what I was attempting to do.. if its a bug that's awesome, let me look this over and if I don't see anything obvious I'll throw it up on pastebin 17:50:06 mcspiff: http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Core/core.html#ID-184E7107 says you can even just append b's children to c and they'll be moved, i.e. the children's parent become c 17:51:38 astalla [~astalla@dynamic-adsl-78-12-83-237.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 17:51:38 -!- silenius [~silenius@p4FFC99E6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:52:57 hi, where can I find some info about the #. operator (or whatever it is called)? 17:53:24 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:53:24 clhs #. 17:53:25 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhf.htm 17:53:43 thx acelent 17:54:21 <_8david> solution 1: use STP instead of DOM 17:54:30 -!- kwertii [~kwertii@ResNet-33-19.resnet.ucsb.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:54:37 acelent: http://pastebin.com/mLWREc8Q 17:54:44 <_8david> solution 2: brutally use (setf (slot-value 'rune-dom::tag-name) new-name) 17:55:00 _8david: that sounds... easy 17:55:16 -!- frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-96-233.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:55:19 im not attached to the dom at all, other than pre-exsisting knowledge 17:55:34 which is clearly less than i thought it was ;-) 17:55:59 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.234] has quit [Quit: Offline] 17:57:02 *_8david* does not know why there's no exported accessor. Presumably the DOM test suite didn't test for such a thing, even though in JavaScript you can just set those fields. 17:57:08 -!- manuel_ [~manuel@xdsl-78-34-129-170.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: manuel_] 17:57:56 _8david: in the standard, nodeName and tagname are readonly 17:57:56 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 17:58:51 I compiled my entire project with (declaim (optimize debug)) in each file -- are there limits to which frames can be restarted in SBCL, even when debug is 2 or higher? 17:58:51 _8david: in lisp, however, you can change the string destructively, but i don't recommend it: you can be changing the name for a lot of other elements or attributes that share the same string 17:59:21 <_8david> acelent: I'm not suggesting to change the string. I'm suggesting to put a different string into the slot. 17:59:24 there are some frames involving calls of functions inside my project that are not restartable. 18:00:01 _8david: that did the trick 18:00:16 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.131] has joined #lisp 18:01:28 A defconstant cannot have a string value? Is it true? 18:02:03 <_8david> aha, cxml implements DOM 2. renameNode is DOM 3. 18:02:03 _8david: heh except it only works once... the element seems to still know its type... 18:02:19 _8david: which is fine, just tricky 18:02:53 _8david: nvm, did something dumb on my end. yeah that works. 18:04:12 bege: where do you read that? 18:04:32 kwertii [~kwertii@ResNet-33-19.resnet.ucsb.edu] has joined #lisp 18:05:10 acelent: Nowhere, but sbcl raises an error for me if I try to do so. It says I want to redefine it. 18:05:32 during compilation 18:06:35 well, that probably means you're defining it twice :P 18:07:32 bege: evaluating (defconstant x "s") twice might not set x to the same string. i.e. strings aren't interned 18:07:53 anvandare: No, I'm not. :) CLISP goes well, SBCL (1.0.51) crashes. I think it is a bug. 18:07:56 in a repl, at least 18:08:10 bege: it crashes? 18:08:17 raises an error 18:08:27 oh, that's quite different 18:08:35 (i mean it) 18:08:38 can you pastebin your source? 18:08:54 acelent: yes, sorry, it raises a constant redefinition error 18:10:14 take note that clisp is very relaxed 18:10:23 it'll only raise a warning, not explicitly stop execution 18:10:27 anvandare: ccl works fine too :) 18:10:33 hmm 18:11:14 well, either show the error or pastebin the source, otherwise we can't help :P 18:11:24 bege: it's an intentional implementation choice by SBCL. 18:11:57 Bike1 [~Glossina@71-38-156-4.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:59 bege: see http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Defining-Constants 18:13:02 bege: try (eq "a string" "a string") and you'll understand 18:13:23 (and what Xach said too) 18:13:56 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.178.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:14:15 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 18:14:19 thx Xach, acelent, it explains it 18:14:29 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-106-243.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:15:03 so basically I was right, a defconstant cannot be a string :) 18:15:31 bege: it can, it shouldn't 18:17:23 (defvar *s* "s") (defconstant +c+ *s*) (defconstant +c+ *s*) ; is good, for example. 18:18:25 Daev [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-185.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:18:54 -!- ngz [~user@80.105.193.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:19:24 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:19:52 pjb: however, compiled code may have the constant inlined, and it might not be eq, right? 18:19:52 alama [~jessealam@86.93.35.187] has joined #lisp 18:19:56 vervic [~vervic@178-165-245-099.dyn.orange.at] has joined #lisp 18:20:11 acelent: indeed. 18:20:48 The problem is load time. Compiled code saved to fasl file may duplicate the string. 18:21:30 (defvar *s* "s") (defconstant +c+ *s*) (defun f () +c+) (eq *s* (f)) --> t; but after compile-file/load, it might be nil. 18:22:08 acelent: shouldn't is good enough for me :), thx for the help 18:22:22 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.179.169] has joined #lisp 18:23:03 -!- paul0 [~paul0@189.114.207.94.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:23:43 paul0 [~paul0@189.114.207.94.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 18:23:54 -!- mcspiff [~user@CPE78cd8ec16698-CM78cd8ec16695.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:25:34 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 18:28:35 ukd1 [~ukd1@2.29.8.87] has joined #lisp 18:29:29 hi guys, I'm looking at learning some lisp on my mac, it appears the easiest to install is clisp or newlisp - is either more recommended to learn? 18:29:37 Off topic, but what does everyone listen to while coding? Just curious. 18:29:43 wccoder: try #lispcafe 18:29:56 ukd1: Newlisp isn't a CL implementation 18:30:01 -!- Bike1 is now known as Bike 18:30:03 ukd1: this channel is for common lisp. the most popular CLs on the Mac are Clozure CL and SBCL. 18:30:04 ukd1: newlisp is a different language. 18:30:32 thanks! 18:30:53 ukd1: clisp is another implementation of Common Lisp. 18:31:08 antoszka, would you recommend trying to install something else or is clisp ok? 18:31:27 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-23-251-130-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:31:32 I think it's worth getting SBCL or Clozure CL. 18:31:35 ukd1: I've got no mac experience, and would trust Xach on the recommendation. 18:31:47 Xach, I actually can install sbcl 18:31:52 -!- prip [~foo@host36-124-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:32:12 and the other one - they just didn't come up when I searched for lisp 18:33:10 It somehow seems to be less popular in the press 18:33:24 mcspiff [~user@CPE78cd8ec16698-CM78cd8ec16695.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 18:34:42 Am I correct in thinking that if I choose either to start, as they are common lisp, what I learn would be transferable? 18:34:47 altsrid [~altsrid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:55 ukd1: Certainly. 18:35:08 antoszka, sbcl it is then :-) 18:35:28 if anyone has a specific newb link for learning it would be great, if not I'll google :D 18:35:30 ukd1: i recommend getting sbcl from www.sbcl.org 18:35:44 ukd1: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ is a great book that's also available to read online 18:36:13 Xach, I've just installed it using brew - v 1.0.50, which seems to be just behind the latest 18:36:24 spearalot [~spearalot@c83-248-140-186.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:36:31 Not bad. 18:36:37 Xach, thanks for the book link. Brew rocks. 18:36:58 http://mxcl.github.com/homebrew/ - if you'd not seen 18:36:58 ukd1: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ is another one worth starting with (depending on your previous programming experience I suppose). 18:40:42 antoszka, I do program already :-) 18:40:48 I'll check it out - thanks! :D 18:41:36 BountyX [~erhan@adsl-76-241-88-187.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:49 ukd1: You may find it pretty basic then, but it hints some good intuitions about basic Lisp data structures. 18:42:39 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 18:42:52 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 18:43:18 Anyone would share some working code based on cl-xmpp? I can't seem to be able to get the connection right. 18:44:58 prip [~foo@host55-122-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:47:17 -!- mtd [~martin@chop.xades.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:47:23 ngz [~user@80.105.193.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:43 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 18:48:03 Athas` [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 18:48:29 mtd [~martin@chop.xades.com] has joined #lisp 18:49:44 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:50:52 *Xach* has nothin' 18:52:43 -!- gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:53:00 -!- Athas` [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:56:07 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.179.169] has quit [Quit: Offline] 18:57:53 -!- gemelen [~shelta@gemelen.net] has quit [Quit:    .    ...] 18:58:50 frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-96-233.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:11 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has 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