00:00:08 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@cpc12-oxfd18-2-0-cust64.4-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:00:32 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-216-75.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:46 ocharles [u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bflfddjhvvrfktih] has joined #lisp 00:07:14 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:07:29 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 00:11:19 McOmghall [~quassel@77.209.202.134] has joined #lisp 00:13:49 frhodes [~frhodes@75-173-84-172.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:54 srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has joined #lisp 00:18:57 vert2 [~vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-rcicuheesjwxlebl] has joined #lisp 00:25:04 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:25:05 -!- frhodes [~frhodes@75-173-84-172.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:28:26 ISF [~ivan@201.82.131.254] has joined #lisp 00:29:32 Quadrescence [~quadbook@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 00:30:57 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:34:20 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:10 superflit [~superflit@71-208-208-47.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:16 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.153.55] has joined #lisp 00:49:18 zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has joined #lisp 00:50:10 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A3EBE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:52:05 -!- zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:53:05 When is it important to manually invoke cons? 00:53:26 I understand the purpose, but I'm not entirely sure of the general usefulness. 00:54:24 cheier [~amedueces@c-76-107-19-58.hsd1.ms.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:54 cons is basically the malloc() of lisp 00:57:15 maxm: I'm not sure I understand that analogy? 00:57:17 generally when you recursing into the list, building the new list out of existing one, its common to use cons 00:58:04 for example, lets say you want to write a function that takes a tree, and returns it modified in some way, lets say every number incremented by 1.. Generally its done by writing something like: 00:59:16 SegFaultAX: What do you mean "manually invoke"? 00:59:59 -!- Joreji [~thomas@64-073.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:00:02 Bike: I couldn't think of a better term. I mean, why/when is it generally used. Particularly when you have append or concatenate available as well. 01:00:17 (defun foo (list) (cond ((numberp list) (1+ list)) ((consp list) (cons (foo (car list)) (foo (cdr list)))))) 01:00:17 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-154-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:00:53 you call it as any other function (cons a b) returns the new cell 01:01:02 maxm: Ah, I see. 01:01:27 each time you write (a b c), system at the very lowest level does (cons 'a (cons 'b (cons 'c nil))) 01:01:50 -!- srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has quit [Quit: quitting] 01:01:51 to build a list 3 cells, each of them pointing to the next one, and last one pointing to nil 01:02:19 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Offline] 01:03:42 maxm: This question may not make sense, but when people say 'consing up a list', what are they referring to exactly? 01:03:55 building a list in some way 01:04:20 SegFaultAX: http://www.retrologic.com/jargon/C/cons.html 01:04:30 generally all teh higher level functions such as append/list are written in terms of cons (or can be written it term of cons). Sometimes compiler is clever and can optimize stuff 01:06:54 maxm: So in the case of (= 3 4) <-- is this still a 3 element list (at first) (cons '= (cons 3 (conds 4 nil)))? 01:07:17 maxm: Or have I just confused myself? 01:07:27 SegFaultAX: If you'd want a *list* containing the symbols = 3 and 4 01:07:39 -!- ngz [~user@171.203.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:07:42 that would be the same as '(= 3 4) 01:07:47 But (= 3 4) isn't a list, it's a sexp, right? 01:07:50 maxm: So what you meant was, SBCL's functions expect there to be a certain memory layout set up for them, and regular POSIX mechanisms don't set it up? 01:08:05 SegFaultAX: Code is data, as they say 01:08:21 SegFaultAX: it's all S-expressions 01:09:25 Iceland_jack: Explain that, please. 01:09:43 Iceland_jack: Are sexps even lower level that cons cells? 01:10:01 (cons 2 4) is an S-expression 01:10:05 (4) is an S-expression 01:10:07 *s 01:10:08 *a 01:10:44 SegFaultAX: s-expression is either a cons or atom 01:10:49 S-expressions simply describes the data structure that (in Lisp) uses parentheses 01:10:53 maxm: Ah, I see. 01:10:59 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.38.98.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:11:22 list is a cons, witha special property that its second element is either NIL or cons 01:11:34 err NIL or list 01:11:56 (cons 1 4)  (1 . 4) ; NOT a list 01:12:03 (cons 1 nil)  (1) ; A list 01:12:07 so on the lowest levels there are only conses and atoms. Conses can contain other conses or atoms. Together either a cons or atom is called s-experssion 01:12:24 its like C linked list element struct cons {void *car, void *cdr} 01:12:31 maxm: I don't think atoms are S-expressions 01:12:32 Iceland_jack: What is it if not a list? 01:12:53 A cons. 01:13:05 Are a cons and a list distinct? 01:13:12 well i'm not sure of a formal definition, but emacs deletes them when I say "M-x kill-sexp" 01:13:19 Rather, how are they distinct? 01:13:28 SegFaultAX: Every list consists of cons. 01:13:53 Iceland_jack: But a dotted pair isn't a list? 01:13:57 Cons contain two elements, if the latter element is a NIL or a LIST, then that cons is a part of a list 01:14:00 SegFaultAX: No. 01:14:35 every list is a dotted pair, not every dotted pair is a list 01:14:51 Iceland_jack: What if the cdr is neight NIL or a LIST? 01:15:01 SegFaultAX: then it's not a list 01:15:15 possibly a dotted pair or a dotted list (really a misnomer) 01:15:29 So what's a dotted pair then? 01:15:45 SegFaultAX: ...a cons where the cdr is neither NIL nor LIST 01:16:04 Iceland_jack: Hah, yea. Ok. 01:16:17 Iceland_jack: I'm not sure why that didn't stick the first 3 times you said it. 01:16:22 (cons 1 2) ; dotted pair 01:16:34 (cons 1 (cons 2 3))  (1 2 . 3) ; dotted list 01:16:35 maxm: So is that what you meant? 01:16:45 So, what's the functional purpose of a dotted pair (when is it useful)? 01:16:52 SegFaultAX: It's rarely used 01:17:01 (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 nil)))  (list 1 2 3)  (1 2 3) 01:17:12 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-112-188.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:17:44 Maybe that's why I didn't understand the distinction. I've never used (or needed) dotted pairs. I conflated the two in my head. 01:18:21 Is (1 2 . 3) a legal literal syntax in my code? 01:18:23 SegFaultAX: The term list may refer to true lists (1 2 3) or dotted lists (1 2 . 3) 01:18:32 Yes, if it's quoted 01:19:14 (quote (1 2 . 3))  '(1 2 . 3)  (1 2 . 3) 01:19:21 Iceland_jack: So would (cdr '(1 2 . 3)) return (2 . 3) or just (3)? 01:19:28 he did say "literal" 01:19:40 SegFaultAX: Why not try it? 01:19:51  01:20:04 Bike: I'm at work, I haven't installed SBCL on this machine. 01:20:13 Bike: Although now that you mention it... 01:20:23 SegFaultAX: (2 . 3) 01:21:01 Iceland_jack: So in this case it's the entire inner cons. 01:21:06 kennyd [~kennyd@78-0-239-35.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 01:21:15 well (1 2 . 3) is (cons 1 (cons 2 3)) 01:21:28 so you can see that the CAR is 1 01:21:28 Iceland_jack: You said that this feature is rarely used, out of curiosity, why is that? 01:21:34 SegFaultAX: A cons is a pair of two objects. In this case, the first object is 1, and the second object is another pair. 01:21:41 -!- pavelludiq [~pavelludi@87.246.58.193] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:21:55 If you need to make a distinction between a true list (1 2 3) and a dotted list (1 2 . 3) you may explicitly call a list ending with a NIL a TRUE list 01:22:11 but most functions are not expected to operate on dotted lists 01:22:21 Bike: Oh right, I guess that's in no way different than (cdr '(1 2 3)) > (2 3) 01:23:15 SegFaultAX: dotted lists just aren't used much, especially since with TRUE lists you can always check whether you're at the end by checking (null (cdr list)) 01:24:47 It seems like dotted lists or even dotted pairs are just a source of confusion. 01:24:57 Do they have an actual usefulness? 01:25:05 Confusion to whom? 01:25:08 I use dotted pairs for... pairs. 01:25:20 (cons 2 3) = (cons 2 (cons 3 nil)) sems like it'd be easier. 01:25:31 Easier for whom? 01:25:34 SegFaultAX: Dotted pairs can be used for co-ordinates and the such, but it's just a result of the language 01:25:49 Xach: Dunno, just in general I suppose. 01:25:56 Cons is a simple mechanism that you can build more complex structures with. 01:25:58 SegFaultAX: Doesn't seem likely to me. 01:25:58 In normal code you'd use `list' SegFaultAX 01:26:06 SegFaultAX, I think you mean (list 2 3) = (2 . 3) would be easier 01:26:23 Quadrescence: Nope. 01:26:27 (list 1 2 3) will never result in a dotted\ {pair,list} 01:26:31 Iceland_jack: Sure I understand that. 01:26:32 SegFaultAX, When you look at cons pairs with list semantics, naturally you'd want to rid it of NIL 01:27:03 Quadrescence: What I meant was, if dotted pairs aren't used much over so-called true lists, why have them at all? 01:27:08 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.38.98.102] has joined #lisp 01:27:31 What does the distinction of having the final cdr = NIL really afford you in the end? 01:27:36 SegFaultAX, They're a way to represent sequential data (such as a program) in memory 01:27:46 Without needing contiguous blocks 01:28:01 SegFaultAX: http://arclanguage.org/item?id=4260 01:28:27 That doesn't fit the meter at all. :( 01:28:39 Iceland_jack: Apparently someone else came up against the same barrier :) 01:29:00 you can represent binary trees with them I guess 01:29:16 You can represent programs with them very simply. 01:29:22 That's sort of the point of them. 01:29:48 ie (1 2 . 3) is a binary tree where left node is a leaf, right node is a binary tree with two leafs 2 and 3 01:30:10 I see. 01:30:42 SegFaultAX: also ((1 . 2) . (3 . 4)) 01:30:44 etc. 01:30:58 I don't mean to sound argumentative (if I do), I'm really trying to get down to the very essence of lisp. I feel like these are good questions at least for me to fully understand. 01:31:31 for now just understand that (cons 42 (cons 12 (cons 6 (cons 3 NIL)))) = (list 42 12 6 3) and use `list' instead 01:31:37 The "nature" of lisp, if that is such a thing. 01:31:59 Iceland_jack: Sure that's fair enough. But it's nice to look a little deeper. 01:32:08 of course 01:32:27 Have you ever had a class in data structures and/or algorithms? Linked lists are usually taught. 01:32:35 SegFaultAX, The use of CONS to represent programs (lists of data) is partly historical. How might you represent a cons cell on a computer? 01:32:54 Bike: Again I'm not having an issue with the concepts. It's the usefulness I'm questioning. 01:33:21 You probably won't see dotted lists in production code at *all* 01:33:27 Quadrescence: That's a very good question. I was just going to say that perhaps I should write my own lisp to help me come to terms with some of these problems. 01:33:30 Iceland_jack, that is false 01:33:33 you might see dotted pairs 01:33:56 leo2007 [~leo@58.22.113.134] has joined #lisp 01:33:57 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.38.98.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:34:09 Have all of you written your own lisp at some point or another? 01:34:17 SegFaultAX, Do you know any other programming languages? 01:34:32 Quadrescence: Several. 01:34:39 SegFaultAX, What is one of them? 01:35:08 Quadrescence: Most functions don't deal with dotted lists, and there is very little gain from using them 01:35:12 -!- seangrove [~user@c-24-6-209-98.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:35:22 Quadrescence: C and Python are my main development languages. 01:35:37 SegFaultAX, In C, how might you represent a cons pair? 01:35:54 Quadrescence: Although I've been tinkering more and more in clojure. 01:36:17 Quadrescence: A struct with an int and a pointer to another cons I suppose. 01:36:27 SegFaultAX, An int? 01:36:42 Quadrescence: Lists of numbers first. 01:36:48 how would you represent ((1 . 2) (3 . 4)) ? 01:37:07 rather: how would you represent ((1 . 2) . (3 . 4)) ? 01:37:31 Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.182.226] has joined #lisp 01:37:45 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:22 Quadrescence: That's the thing, I'm not sure how I would approach a dotted pair. Perhaps the cdr pointer would be to a cons that has null set for it's cdr? 01:38:47 SegFaultAX, how about a struct with two pointers? 01:38:56 Quadrescence: Sure, can do. 01:39:09 -!- Deathaholic [~Mococa@187.114.162.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:39:15 zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has joined #lisp 01:39:16 the first pointer called the CAR, the second the CDR 01:39:31 SegFaultAX: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?DottedPairNotation 01:40:04 SegFaultAX, If dotted pairs represent lists, how do we make an empty list? 01:40:13 Quadrescence: Well I approached it simply at first where I would store (cons 1 nil) <- the 1 directly and only point to the next cons. 01:40:44 Quadrescence: Unsafely, a cons struct with 2 null pointers. 01:41:09 How would you represent (cons nil nil) if you did that? 01:41:25 SegFaultAX: (hint: NIL is the empty list) 01:41:27 Bike, nil might not necessarily be NULL 01:41:45 unless you didn't mean that 01:42:50 So would it have to be (nil (nil nil)) to represent (cons nil nil)? 01:42:54 oh, yeah. 01:43:13 Does slime need *slime-compilation* buffer 01:43:28 it literally takes 2-3 minutes to fontify it when compiling with (speed 3) 01:43:47 SegFaultAX, You can think of nil as just an empty list. Don't think of it as NULL. 01:44:02 SegFaultAX, How would you find the "tail" of a list then? 01:45:25 Quadrescence: I only need to check if cdr is null. 01:45:47 SegFaultAX, no, the tail would be the CDR 01:46:20 tail([1]) ==> [] 01:46:39 Quadrescence: I mean, I would dereference cdr recursively until it's null. 01:46:54 SegFaultAX: what if you have a list as the CDR? 01:47:28 Iceland_jack: Find it's return tail(cdr) 01:47:48 I need to head out guys, sorry. I didn't realize how late it's getting. 01:47:54 Will you be on later tonight? 01:47:58 (I'm PST) 01:48:07 I'm GMT but I'll probably be here later 01:48:15 take care SegFaultAX, keep at it 01:48:29 SegFaultAX, anyway what I'm trying to get at is that 1. a cons pair is a very very simple data structure: it's just two pointers like you said. You can even represent a cons pair *itself* as a pointer: the first half representing the address of the CAR, the second half representing the address of the CDR 01:48:33 I'm probably going to start working on a custom lisp this weekend, then. 01:48:51 Quadrescence: Ah! 01:49:02 SegFaultAX: Creating your own Lisp dialect then? Shouldn't you try to understand Lisp better before doing that? 01:49:06 Quadrescence: If you're online this weekend, we can continue this conversation :) 01:49:10 And with this, you can represent lists (if you want), trees (if you want), programs (if you want) 01:49:24 Iceland_jack, creating a lisp dialect is a fine way to learn 01:49:35 Talk to you guys soon. Thank you so much! 01:49:46 -!- SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@VEROXITY.ipcolo1.SanFrancisco1.Level3.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:49:58 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 01:51:05 -!- zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:52:06 Iceland_jack: implementing a toy lisp helped me understand some concepts much better (not cons cells, though). 01:53:11 -!- leo2007 [~leo@58.22.113.134] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 01:53:35 it definitely helps with learning scoping 01:53:48 (and scoping's odd cases (shadowing, etc)) 01:55:43 pnq [~nick@AC826049.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 01:59:31 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.38.98.102] has joined #lisp 02:00:53 zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has joined #lisp 02:03:29 -!- zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:09:02 zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has joined #lisp 02:10:01 -!- McOmghall [~quassel@77.209.202.134] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:11:44 m4dnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 02:12:27 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:12:35 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-161-7.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:13:19 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:17:21 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.153.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:19:33 -!- paul0 [~paul0@187.112.70.70] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:20:13 paul0 [~paul0@187.112.70.70] has joined #lisp 02:21:01 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-161-7.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:34 paul0_ [~paul0@187.112.70.70] has joined #lisp 02:21:51 -!- paul0 [~paul0@187.112.70.70] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:21:51 -!- paul0_ is now known as paul0 02:31:42 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-163-38.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:33:36 ost````` [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 02:33:36 -!- ost```` [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:34:52 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:38:05 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: 1999] 02:42:15 -!- zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:46:21 ost`````` [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 02:46:22 -!- ost````` [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:51:47 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 03:03:00 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:03:34 -!- cheier [~amedueces@c-76-107-19-58.hsd1.ms.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:03:43 -!- chp [~chp@ool-18b83194.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 03:06:03 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-154-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:24 -!- davidh`` [~user@f053009208.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:08:22 zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has joined #lisp 03:09:52 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:10:47 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 03:11:26 slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-163-38.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:11 daniel [~daniel@p508292CE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:31 cheier [~amedueces@c-76-107-19-58.hsd1.ms.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:51 -!- daniel__ [~daniel@p508291DC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:24:20 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.153.55] has joined #lisp 03:25:17 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-165-13.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 03:29:05 gko [gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:12 Eataix [~Eataix@CPE-121-223-176-127.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 03:32:39 xyxu1 [~xyxu@222.68.160.2] has joined #lisp 03:32:45 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.38.98.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:34:12 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.153.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:36:32 -!- Eataix [~Eataix@CPE-121-223-176-127.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:38:18 noriya [~noriya@ntszok080196.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:42:14 -!- pnq [~nick@AC826049.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:45:01 anyone here who knows CLOS? 03:45:50 specifically why call-next-method in an :around might not call the primary method I think it should call? 03:46:34 <_3b> might be calling other :around methods? 03:47:27 _3b: no, there is only one :around method that slime could find, and it is definitely eventually getting to the primary method for the less specific class 03:48:57 <_3b> if no other around or before methods, other things i can think of are wrong expectations of what should be called, or strange method combinations 03:49:05 Jubb [~ghost@24-151-24-155.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:49:52 one thing that is odd is that the :around method is binding a special as part of its arglist (don't ask me, ask Edi Weitz) 03:50:06 *_3b* sees nothing odd about that 03:50:32 okay, I guess it's just something I've never seen before 03:54:06 It's a good sign when you miss things that SLIME has that Genera doesn't. 03:55:06 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 03:55:08 -!- noriya [~noriya@ntszok080196.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:55:14 -!- xyxu1 [~xyxu@222.68.160.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:55:30 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.160.2] has joined #lisp 03:55:33 so it turns out that as usual when nothing makes sense, it's because I'm an idiot (a misplaced paren was causing it to skip the defmethod) 03:55:54 <_3b> yeah, i guess that would explain it too :) 03:56:54 I finally noticed that the M-. for the method wasn't showing my specialization 04:03:11 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:12:38 fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:14:44 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:17:12 -!- Jubb [~ghost@24-151-24-155.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:18:29 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:18:39 Jubb [~ghost@24-151-24-155.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:22:41 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-94WdSYCgCo 04:23:54 -!- rlazo [~user@gentoo/contributor/rlazo] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:28:06 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:30:05 Quadrescence: ? 04:31:24 footage of the game of life flowing in a repl 04:32:21 Is the **more** thing in your code or a Genera thing? 04:32:41 I have to say that I sometimes wish for a Lisp OS, but not in the form most people think. More among the lines of how Erlang is actually an OS that has a language 04:33:08 Bike, a genera thing 04:36:00 I see. p_l|backup: What does that mean? 04:38:04 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 04:42:03 Bike: erlang, as a language, outside of good bit-manipulation stuff doesn't really offer much. What gives it the kick is its runtime system and the OTP framework, even if OTP is somewhat dated for some people 04:43:44 now, for some time I have been thinking of doing a bytecoded CL implementation (pulling a lot of code from SBCL and SACLA to reduce workload), that would also have first-order images that could be used as processes, and couple this with at least a basic graphic interface 04:45:07 make all of that modular, then if it works maybe add native code generation 04:46:24 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.182.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:52:17 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-163-38.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:54:49 -!- zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:55:48 zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has joined #lisp 04:55:57 -!- zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:58:16 -!- fisxoj 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[~bart@bb121-6-161-222.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:21:24 kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 05:21:27 Good morning. 05:21:29 -!- kwertii [~kwertii@ResNet-33-19.resnet.ucsb.edu] has quit [Quit: bye] 05:22:30 -!- gko [gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:23:17 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.131.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:24:06 good evening 05:25:31 Who is the admin of paste.lisp.org and receives the requests for deletion or the 'mark as spam' messages? 05:30:23 zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has joined #lisp 05:31:05 cnl [~cnl@95.106.38.199] has joined #lisp 05:35:30 -!- nicdev [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: nicdev] 05:38:14 -!- drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:39:37 -!- srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:50:41 ehu 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[~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 08:10:27 gko [gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 08:11:25 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.38.98.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:24:11 Eataix [~Eataix@CPE-121-223-176-127.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:24:25 -!- Eataix [~Eataix@CPE-121-223-176-127.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:24:48 Eataix [~Eataix@CPE-121-223-176-127.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:30:07 TeMPOraL [~user@cpc12-oxfd18-2-0-cust64.4-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:32:22 dacoda [~user@gate.cdc.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:34:10 -!- benny [~benny@i577A2251.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:35:55 -!- gko [gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:37:14 ngz [~user@171.203.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 08:38:29 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:39:21 -!- Eataix [~Eataix@CPE-121-223-176-127.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] 08:41:38 Eataix [~Eataix@CPE-121-223-176-127.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:43:19 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 08:43:19 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:43:37 pavelludiq [~pavelludi@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 08:49:01 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-254-42-14.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:50:17 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.38.98.102] has joined #lisp 08:58:05 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.38.98.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:59:21 benny [~benny@i577A8DAE.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 09:00:50 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 09:03:51 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:07:40 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:07:50 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 09:08:20 Yuuhi [benni@p5483D851.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:15:32 -!- dacoda [~user@gate.cdc.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:19:01 -!- lony [~lony@hoas-fe3ddd00-245.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:20:31 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl5-138-98.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 09:24:41 -!- Jabberwock is now known as Jabberwockey 09:26:26 Joreji [~thomas@64-073.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:27:00 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-254-42-14.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 09:31:43 ska` [~user@ppp-58-8-244-173.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 09:32:06 lony [~lony@hoas-fe3ddd00-245.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 09:32:16 "Lush brings the best of both worlds by wrapping three languages into one: (1) a weakly-typed, garbage-collected, dynamically scoped, interpreted language with a simple Lisp-like syntax, (2) a strongly-typed, lexically-scoped compiled language that uses the same Lisp-like syntax [...]" 09:32:33 wait, so there are still people who see lexical scoping as a compiler optimisation? 09:32:40 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 09:33:52 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-141-126.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:37:39 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:39:13 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-191-108.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 09:40:15 -!- Joreji [~thomas@64-073.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:42:41 -!- Eataix [~Eataix@CPE-121-223-176-127.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] 09:44:19 -!- manuel_ [~manuel@xdsl-87-78-57-233.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: manuel_] 09:44:43 wullikam [vilka@ip13.ru] has joined #lisp 09:44:53 manuel_ [~manuel@xdsl-87-78-57-233.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:45:03 -!- ugoubuntu [~ugoubuntu@119.59.128.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:46:05 ugoubuntu [~ugoubuntu@119.59.128.27] has joined #lisp 09:47:01 jp_larocque [jabber-irc@number-41.thoughtcrime.us] has joined #lisp 09:47:36 -!- manuel_ [~manuel@xdsl-87-78-57-233.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 09:50:15 McOmghall [~quassel@77.209.99.27] has joined #lisp 09:50:15 -!- ugoubuntu [~ugoubuntu@119.59.128.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:51:10 hello 09:52:28 Hi. 09:54:08 I'm trying to use SBCL's compiler policy functionality to ensure that a big system is compiled with everything at SAFETY 3. 09:54:29 -!- wullikam [vilka@ip13.ru] has quit [Quit: Connection Closed] 09:54:48 But I can't seem to get the basic usage of SB-EXT:RESTRICT-COMPILER-POLICY right. Could somebody take a look at this and tell me if there's something wrong? 09:54:51 http://paste.lisp.org/display/124298 09:57:02 josemanuel [~josemanue@249.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 10:05:26 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 10:08:11 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:12:59 jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-88.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:13:14 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:14:49 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:15:01 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 10:17:02 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181056239.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:17:14 ugoubuntu [~ugoubuntu@119.59.128.27] has joined #lisp 10:17:24 -!- ugoubuntu [~ugoubuntu@119.59.128.27] has left #lisp 10:21:51 scorpil [~voffka@77.126.202.31] has joined #lisp 10:23:15 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@218.235.8.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:26:40 minion: ? 10:26:47 lazy bot 10:41:37 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:42:08 -!- scorpil [~voffka@77.126.202.31] has left #lisp 10:49:45 -!- wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-131-242.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:50:15 homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-152-252.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:50:29 -!- khaliG [~khali@203.171.126.201.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:50:55 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-152-252.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:51:28 Eataix [~Eataix@CPE-121-223-176-127.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:52:14 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-131-242.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:53:02 -!- homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-152-252.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 10:53:13 -!- wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-152-252.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 10:54:46 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 10:58:47 -!- Eataix [~Eataix@CPE-121-223-176-127.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has left #lisp 11:03:55 -!- nhonhonho [~nhonhonho@201.86.18.96.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:05:13 mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:05:13 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 11:05:13 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 11:07:08 -!- koollman [~samson_t@sp1.kooll.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:10:21 y3llow [~y3llow@111-240-171-221.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:13:13 koollman [samson_t@sp1.kooll.info] has joined #lisp 11:17:49 leo2007 [~leo@58.22.113.190] has joined #lisp 11:23:04 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:24:26 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@249.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 11:25:30 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@218.235.8.175] has joined #lisp 11:32:35 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-552-1-41-2.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 11:38:30 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-147.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:40:48 rustywheeler [~yaaic@1.153.66.82] has joined #lisp 11:41:15 -!- McOmghall [~quassel@77.209.99.27] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 11:41:41 McOmghall [~quassel@77.209.99.27] has joined #lisp 11:48:15 -!- leo2007 [~leo@58.22.113.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:48:37 -!- rustywheeler [~yaaic@1.153.66.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:50:53 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-167-60.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:00:02 There is an (in-package :sudoku-solver) on the first line of sudoku-solver.lisp, but when I load it, the prompt is not showing SUDOKU-SOLVER> 12:00:06 http://paste.lisp.org/display/124301 12:00:51 ignas [~ignas@217067203062.itsa.net.pl] has joined #lisp 12:00:51 I'm having to manually change package to so that I can run the program. 12:01:13 Can someone please tell me what's wrong? 12:01:57 that's expected 12:02:00 samebchase: LOAD saves the package before loading and restores it afterwards. 12:02:03 LOAD binds *package* 12:02:17 samebchase: to switch packages in the repl, use in-package in the repl. 12:02:28 Xach: that's what I'm doing now 12:02:35 Well, there you go. 12:02:43 You can also use slime's ,change-package command. 12:02:46 Xach: is there any way to do that automatically? 12:03:01 samebchase: if you're in the file, C-c ~ 12:03:09 <_3b> you can also run things from other packages, sudoku-solver::do-stuff 12:03:17 Xach: how did you know I was using emacs? 12:03:28 samebchase: FOO> is the traditional slime prompt. 12:03:43 ska`` [~user@ppp-58-11-96-221.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 12:03:48 Xach: oh 12:03:59 -!- ska` [~user@ppp-58-8-244-173.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:05:01 Where is a good place to put (asdf:operate ... )? 12:05:14 rather than typing it in the repl? 12:05:29 samebchase: I never write asdf:operate ever, so no place is good. 12:05:46 (asdf:load-system "foo") is better, and I prefer (ql:quickload ...) even more. 12:06:11 <_3b> and rather than calling quickload in the .asd, you should add a :depends-on clause to the sudoku-solver defsystem 12:07:01 *Xach* reads the paste, agrees 12:08:37 -!- vert2 [~vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-rcicuheesjwxlebl] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:08:37 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:08:37 -!- jrockway [~jrockway@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fe93:50b0] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:08:47 vert2 [~vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-rcicuheesjwxlebl] has joined #lisp 12:08:47 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 12:08:47 jrockway [~jrockway@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fe93:50b0] has joined #lisp 12:08:49 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:09:00 _3b: :depends on "iterate" ? 12:09:25 :depends-on (#:iterate) is what i'd use. 12:09:25 <_3b> :depends-on (iterate) 12:09:45 <_3b> yeah, that would be good too 12:10:08 no practical difference between mine and _3b's 12:10:21 So string for files... 12:10:45 zort- [~eitan@bas1-toronto07-1176320600.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 12:10:54 i also recently learned that defsystem keywords are compared by name, not identity. fare writes (defsystem foo depends-on (bar) version "1.42") which threw me... 12:10:57 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 12:11:12 Would it be backwards incompatible to make LENGTH, READ-CHAR, and the like, generic? 12:11:21 seems sensible. 12:11:23 (not really relevant to current discussion) 12:12:27 *_3b* suspects that would not be a conformant CL, whether it would be a good idea aside from that is a different question 12:12:53 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-119-23.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:08 <_3b> READ-CHAR wouldn't make a very useful generic function though, since it has no required arguments 12:13:19 <_3b> (in CL/CLOS at least) 12:14:10 <_3b> most implementations let you define your own stream types, and some let you define your own sequence types though 12:14:42 <_3b> so while those particular functions aren't generic, they might conformingly call some other generic function 12:15:15 -!- Astrology [~chris@122.237.29.165] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 12:15:34 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-216-75.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:15:44 i don't think any function is _required_ to be a non-generic one 12:16:18 s/any/any builtin/ 12:17:07 I'm now getting a "No package with name iterate". I guess that's because I've removed to quickload line 12:17:18 s/to/the 12:17:47 samebchase: If you added :depends-on (iterate) to the system definition, loading your system should load iterate first. 12:17:52 *_3b* wonders where in the spec they would have hidden that if anywhere 12:18:16 Xach: I added that. 12:18:28 samebchase: did you load your system? 12:18:57 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483D851.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 12:19:25 Xach: (asdf:load-system ... ) ? 12:19:51 that's one way, yes. 12:19:58 Xach: yeah 12:20:09 It's not loading. 12:20:25 Printing an error. 12:20:40 samebchase: What does your defsystem form look like now? 12:21:56 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 12:22:10 btw I remember there was another build project, kind of like cmake for lisp, but can't find it now 12:22:31 Xach: I added the :depends this to the file. 12:22:34 Xach: I guess 12:22:40 I should added it to the system 12:22:44 it was a few years ago, and I thoght "wow this gonna blow asdf" out of the water, but for the life of me I can't remember what it was 12:22:48 *add 12:22:54 instead 12:22:58 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.160.2] has joined #lisp 12:23:58 *maxm* had pretty much given up on adding :depends to each file, just uses :serial t, and arranges files in macros, general utils, data structures, specific stuff" order 12:24:00 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:24:07 maxm: xcvb? 12:24:07 it works onw. 12:24:27 yay! thanks. 12:24:34 xach: thanks think that may have been it 12:25:13 xcvb looks like a dead duck to me. the mcclim of defsystems. 12:26:21 lisp/scheme ppl look from ivory tower upon lowly java, but javac sensible auto-recompile, or eclipse built-in one is awesome 12:26:52 and in fact it should be possible to do this in slime, all the info is there for the taking, who-specializes, who-calls etc 12:28:00 The C-c ~ thing's not working. 12:28:04 <_3b> maxm: you can compile from the result window of the slime who-calls etc keys 12:28:17 _3b: doh did not knew that 12:28:35 both in the file and the repl 12:29:01 thing is if there was a way in SBCL, to extract what defuns/macros are defined in a specific .FASL 12:29:06 is there any lisp that works under 64-bit windows with emacs+slime? (not under cygwin) 12:29:07 must be some way through internals 12:29:22 sbcl crashes, clisp makes slime exit spuriously (on autocomplete), ccl locks up 12:29:25 (sometimes) 12:29:39 (sbcl crashes on startup) 12:29:45 zvrba: autolisp, I guess ;-) 12:29:49 :) 12:30:14 so you can basically do (slime-who-calls (definitions-in-fasl (get-current-file-fasl-name)) 12:30:18 *_3b* would expect ccl and sbcl threads fork to work 12:30:41 _3b: ccl works for some period of time, and then the slime-listener just deadlocks. 12:30:57 _3b: (inferior-lisp remains operational) 12:32:14 *_3b* wouldn't have expected that to be a lisp specific problem 12:32:20 -!- Salamander__ is now known as Salamander 12:32:34 <_3b> *implementation specific 12:32:39 gah. anyway. virtualbox works fine. :p 12:32:54 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:32:56 *_3b* would have suggested looking for someone to help debug it if it happens again 12:34:27 drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 12:35:00 pnq [~nick@ACA226BD.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 12:39:51 yuho [~yuho@p1177-ipbf1007akatuka.ibaraki.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:39:51 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 12:40:31 -!- yuho [~yuho@p1177-ipbf1007akatuka.ibaraki.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 12:40:32 zvrba: which sbcl version did you try? 12:40:50 1.0.51-mingw-something 12:40:58 try https://github.com/akovalenko/sbcl-win32-threads/wiki 12:41:12 and also non-mingw. hadn't had luck with neither. 12:41:28 interestingly, 1.0.50 (non-mingw) works fine on my work computer 12:42:36 where did you get 1.0.51-mingw from? 12:43:15 i've just downloaded sbcl-ci-exe-1.0.51.11.mswinmt.929-1177a10-x86-64 and it started fine 12:44:22 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-152-252.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:44:31 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-152-252.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:45:08 *zvrba* tries it with slime 12:46:36 is there any advantage of installing MSI vs. just unpacking the single exe from the zip? 12:47:25 woho, it works! :) 12:49:12 samebchase: it only works in a file 12:49:45 -!- lanthan [~ze@p54B7D0B6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:50:06 Xach: the buffer of a file? 12:51:35 yes. 12:52:02 hmm 12:54:15 -!- foom [~jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:54:20 -!- tunes [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:57:00 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Offline] 12:57:16 Joreji [~thomas@83-060.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:57:56 lanthan [~ze@p54B7D0B6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:42 foom [~jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:59:02 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 13:02:32 cl-user [~user@HSI-KBW-109-192-059-240.hsi6.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 13:07:04 tunes [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:11:11 -!- Joreji [~thomas@83-060.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:16:12 gko [gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:18:02 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 13:21:24 -!- ska`` [~user@ppp-58-11-96-221.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:21:39 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA226BD.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:25:19 katesmith [~katesmith@97-89-229-3.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:25:19 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@97-89-229-3.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 13:25:19 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 13:26:02 pnq [~nick@AC81ABA3.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 13:31:21 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-154-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:31:49 Joreji [~thomas@83-060.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:31:49 superflit_ [~superflit@71-33-191-225.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 13:32:57 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-208-216-34.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:32:57 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 13:34:07 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:35:24 billitch [~billitch@bastille.ma3.tv] has joined #lisp 13:40:25 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl5-138-98.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 13:41:43 Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.182.226] has joined #lisp 13:43:10 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 13:43:55 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181056239.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:45:58 scottmaccal [~scottmacc@pool-71-173-86-89.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 13:47:39 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.182.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:50:33 LiamH [~healy@pool-108-18-174-79.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:07 -!- ignas [~ignas@217067203062.itsa.net.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:55:42 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 13:55:56 beach [~user@ABordeaux-552-1-41-2.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:03:09 Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.182.226] has joined #lisp 14:03:21 -!- scottmaccal [~scottmacc@pool-71-173-86-89.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:04:39 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81ABA3.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:08:56 -!- gko [gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [] 14:09:39 gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:12 -!- ngz [~user@171.203.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:12:38 -!- OODavo [~david@ppp121-44-234-212.lns20.syd7.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:13:11 OODavo [~david@ppp121-44-234-212.lns20.syd7.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:30 ngz [~user@171.203.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:15 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 14:23:43 hmm slime-who-macroexpands not implemented on sbcl? 14:25:14 hmm its really sb-introspect:who-macroexpands that seems to be not working 14:26:03 leo2007 [~leo@58.22.113.106] has joined #lisp 14:31:10 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:32:15 sellout1 [~Adium@c-98-245-161-7.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:21 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-161-7.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:32:37 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 14:35:17 lusory [~bart@bb219-74-102-119.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 14:37:03 -!- levi` is now known as levi 14:40:16 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.160.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:41:48 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl5-138-98.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 14:42:09 *maxm* is testing sb-introspect:who-macroexpands in freshly restarted sbcl, and its working, hmm 14:42:33 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.160.2] has joined #lisp 14:47:31 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 14:48:24 -!- ngz [~user@171.203.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:51:01 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 14:51:08 weirdness it does not work when used from CommonQT gui thread 14:51:11 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:52:44 in fact, I think something is bound per-thread, as macros defined before gui therad started are not working, but ones defined after are 14:52:56 ie who-macroexpands only works on macros defined from the same thread 14:53:11 some global var bound than should not be 14:54:19 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:58:31 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:58:33 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:59:09 ok, found it 15:00:29 forgot that my (def (function q)) thing calls the %with-qt expander directly not the (with-qt) macro 15:03:44 manuel_ [~manuel@xdsl-78-35-68-164.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:04:19 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:08:41 -!- sellout1 [~Adium@c-98-245-161-7.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:08:54 and it does not record it when its inside of other macros 15:08:55 meh 15:09:03 borky 15:10:31 nicdev [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:11:21 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 15:13:28 jewel_ [~jewel@196-215-88-11.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:14:44 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-88.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:25:04 Quadrescence [~quadbook@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 15:25:04 the 16k goal! 15:25:11 call-arguments-limit in win32 sbcl is 1152921504606846975 15:25:26 is this really "no limits" or is this a bug? 15:25:41 are you sure it's win32? 15:25:53 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-33-191-225.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:26:10 no, it's x86-64 15:26:13 Either way, it's a lie, and not quite a bug either. There's no enforced limit, but you'll exceed the stack size before. 15:26:18 sbcl-with-contrib-win32-1.0.51.11.mswinmt.929-1177a10-x86-64 15:27:22 pkhuong: is there any enforced stack size? or, is it enforced by SBCL or the OS? 15:27:49 a mix of both. 15:29:12 but where does the number come from? 15:29:25 i've factored it and it has insane factorization 15:29:33 it's most-positive-fixnum. 15:30:14 slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-163-38.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:20 ah :) 15:30:41 pkhuong: but why is most-positive-fixnum not a power of two? 15:30:49 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:31:00 zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has joined #lisp 15:31:02 2^n-1 probably 15:31:02 ahh, my bad 15:31:05 indeed :) 15:31:08 2**60-1 15:31:25 4 bits for tag, I guess 15:31:36 LiamH: 3. We need negative fixnums too. 15:31:43 oh yeah 15:31:44 LiamH: yes. 15:32:01 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:32:28 lundis [~lundis@dyn56-31.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 15:32:44 really, it's 4 with a variable width encoding for fixnums; nyef has a branch that bumps the variableness to only leave 1 tag bit on fixnums. 15:32:51 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 15:33:07 zelak_ [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has joined #lisp 15:33:21 *LiamH* suspects zvrba is a Fortran programmer, not that there's anything wrong with that 15:33:31 LiamH: hahaha, why do you suspect that? :) 15:33:42 "**" as exponentiation 15:33:44 actually,I'm a long-time C/C++/ASM programmer 15:33:54 LiamH: that one shows up elsewhere 15:34:06 LiamH: i have norwegian keyboard layout in the irc window and caret it troublesome to write on it 15:34:07 can't remember where offhand, but fortran definitely isn't the only language that uses it 15:34:21 LiamH: I sometimes use it only because it's not confused with ^ for xor. 15:34:22 Also, the caret is ambiguous with xor. 15:34:26 so I guess I've revealed that I'm a Fortran programmer 15:34:36 hah 15:34:37 but i've picked it up from Perl 15:34:37 Python also uses it. 15:34:47 Zhivago: ah, yes, that's the one 15:34:51 Maxima/Macsyma use it too 15:35:02 it's one of these things I always have to look up when I want to use it in a given language 15:35:34 -!- zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:36:18 LiamH, what do you know about Macsyma 15:36:55 Quadrescence: I've used it, but not in many years. 15:37:44 I even used it on the PDP-10 at MIT, via teletype. 15:38:30 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 15:38:57 LiamH, I ask because I'm looking for Macsyma for lispms 15:39:02 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:39:03 pkhuong: how do variable tags work? 1 bit if set mean it's a fixnum, if clear look elsewhere for tag word? 15:39:28 Quadrescence: Maxima is not good enough for your purposes? 15:40:02 Yuuhi [benni@p5483D851.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:06 LiamH, It's more for historical/curiosity/"research" reasons. 15:40:26 I'm not sure of the status of Macsyma, I think Symbolics sold it years ago, but I don't know if the new owners still maintain it. 15:41:11 It was in probate, and was subsequently released from probate. It is not maintained. 15:41:38 The IP owners remain unresponsive. 15:42:10 We need a squatting law for software. 15:42:17 Probate? Like an individual owned it and died? I didn't know that. 15:42:41 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:42:54 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 15:43:13 -!- McOmghall [~quassel@77.209.99.27] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:43:17 I've always wondered, actually, what happens when someone who has made, say, GPL contributions, dies 15:43:39 does their estate then have the copyright? 15:44:13 LiamH: SBCL has the least significant bit for pointerness, and the rest distributed between various pointer types and characters, floats, etc. 15:44:14 rsynnott: GPL is a license, has nothing to do with ownership. I assume that the estate does have the copyright and can do with it what the trustee wishes. 15:44:15 why not copymaintainer instead of copyright? 15:44:18 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-159-63.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:29 LiamH: ownership is somewhat important in GPL, though 15:44:34 srid_ [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has joined #lisp 15:45:02 (for instance, technically, once you breach the license on a piece of GPL code, you're never allowed use it again until the copyright holder says otherwise) 15:45:06 gplv2, that is 15:45:08 LiamH: nyef changed that to dispatch on the bottom 2 bits: 10 and 00 are fixnums, 11 for pointers and 01 for other immediate (iirc). 15:46:03 pkhuong: interesting, but the most-positive-fixnum indicates there are 3 bits for tag, right? 15:46:40 LiamH: yup 1000 and 0000 are fixnum, currently (on x86-64). 15:46:49 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.160.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:46:51 rsynnott: true, I shouldn't have said "nothing", I was trying to make the distinction between copyright and license, it confuses a lot of people. 15:48:42 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has joined #lisp 15:48:48 -!- srid_ [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has quit [Client Quit] 15:57:10 rsynnott: er that is not the case but this isn't really the place to discuss it 16:00:01 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-152-252.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:00:09 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-152-252.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:03:10 -!- nicdev [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: nicdev] 16:04:12 brown [~user@nat/google/x-puqfjpldsdtapmaf] has joined #lisp 16:04:51 -!- brown is now known as Guest43566 16:06:03 pnq [~nick@172.163.17.6] has joined #lisp 16:06:08 -!- MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-097-129-008.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:07:07 -!- leo2007 [~leo@58.22.113.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:10:20 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@cpc12-oxfd18-2-0-cust64.4-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Weekly review. Be back later.] 16:10:41 -!- zelak_ [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:13:44 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.86.170] has joined #lisp 16:18:04 -!- jewel_ [~jewel@196-215-88-11.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:18:56 jewel_ [~jewel@196-215-88-11.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:19:36 -!- genieliu [~genieliu@59.78.62.120] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:19:59 katesmith_ [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 16:20:00 MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-097-129-008.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:20:32 -!- manuel_ [~manuel@xdsl-78-35-68-164.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:20:33 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:23:25 manuel_ [~manuel@xdsl-78-35-68-164.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:24:10 samebchase: I use a small macro to QUICKLOAD and IN-PACKAGE in one command: http://paste.lisp.org/display/124308 16:25:01 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:25:10 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 16:26:06 Vivitron: taking a look... 16:27:28 kslt1 [~karl.sier@netblock-208-127-156-174.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 16:28:22 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 16:28:31 manuel__ [~manuel_@xdsl-78-35-68-164.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:28:35 Vivitron: I think I could do the (asdf:load-system ...) and switching to the package in a similar way... 16:28:36 I have that in my .sbclrc and export it 16:28:47 I think that would work 16:29:24 quicklisp checks your asdf repositories before it's repository, so I use it for everything 16:29:42 Vivitron: oh 16:30:03 Also, why do most of you guys here use sbcl? 16:30:28 The only reason I'm using clisp now is because of the autocomplete. 16:31:08 samebchase: if you use SLIME or similar with SBCL (or clisp, for that matter) you'll get autocomplete 16:31:10 I have ccl and clisp too, my programs have so far been simple enough that they needed very little porting 16:31:15 samebchase: SLIME offers completion and much more, so that's a non-issue. 16:31:30 on one of my programs, clisp took ~5 times as long as sbcl to execute it 16:31:43 rsynnott: I guess I haven't configured slime properly. 16:31:47 Vivitron: you want to use-package, not switch to it. 16:31:49 ISF [~ivan@201.82.131.254] has joined #lisp 16:32:12 Vivitron: that's significant. 16:33:29 pkhuong: I think I want in-package; I am using dev as a mnemonic for develop -- I want to define functions directly into the package I am working on 16:33:45 My slime-cheat-sheet says that slime-fuzzy-complete-symbol is not bound to anything. 16:34:05 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.182.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:34:16 -!- manuel_ [~manuel@xdsl-78-35-68-164.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: manuel_] 16:34:16 -!- manuel__ is now known as manuel_ 16:34:17 do you have slime fancy set to load? 16:34:35 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:34:41 Vivitron: no, I don't think so. 16:35:08 it takes slime-fancy to hack like a pimp 16:35:18 nicdev [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 16:35:18 -!- nicdev [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:35:30 ngz [~user@171.203.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:57 (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) ? 16:36:16 -!- manuel_ [~manuel_@xdsl-78-35-68-164.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: manuel_] 16:36:18 yea 16:36:34 and I could change to sbcl while I'm at it. 16:36:49 Vivitron: it's funny how people now use quicklisp *instead* of asdf. 16:37:24 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 16:38:05 I feel a little funny using it that way, but it seems like a win to me to use one command instead of two when possible 16:38:31 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 16:39:01 Woah! 16:39:03 nice. 16:39:05 samebchase: you can setup to use either lisp fairly easily http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Multiple-Lisps.html 16:39:29 It's working. 16:41:03 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-152-252.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:42:31 quicklisp docs need update, they reference asdf:*central-registry* in example of (prefer to load local project to quicklisp) 16:42:46 coz /me has hacks to most of libraries he uses 16:43:02 not most but substantial amount 16:43:56 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:44:33 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-161-7.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:35 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:44:45 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:45:14 pkhuong: use-package might be a good way to do it now that I think about it, I will keep that in mind. Thanks. 16:46:12 maxm: Why does it need an update? 16:46:26 maxm: asdf:*central-registry* is a good way to prefer a local library. 16:46:39 Xach: I thought central registry got depreciated? 16:46:44 By whom? 16:46:50 hmm asdf2? 16:46:53 Nope. 16:47:04 It's still the only way to do certain things. 16:47:17 ah ok 16:47:45 Like add to the source registry without writing a disk file and reading it in 16:47:48 mstevens [~mstevens@ceres.etla.org] has joined #lisp 16:47:48 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@ceres.etla.org] has quit [Changing host] 16:47:48 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 16:47:56 sbcl's pretty chatty... 16:48:07 Well, you could (and I do) add a new system search function, but asdf:*central-registry* is 5x easier. 16:48:29 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 16:49:24 zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has joined #lisp 16:49:47 flip214 [~marek@86.59.100.100] has joined #lisp 16:49:49 -!- flip214 [~marek@86.59.100.100] has quit [Changing host] 16:49:49 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 16:50:14 -!- zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:52:01 *maxm* just uses (initialize-source-registry `(:inherit-configuration...)) it seems just re-evaling the form is enough to update the new stuff 16:52:14 had never setup the conf.d stuff, was too complicated for me 16:53:39 zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has joined #lisp 16:55:56 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-108-18-174-79.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:56:03 http://lists.common-lisp.net/pipermail/asdf-devel/2010-October/001661.html and http://lists.common-lisp.net/pipermail/asdf-devel/2010-October/001664.html show what I was thinking about. 16:56:29 -!- zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:56:33 frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-97-249.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:40 Xach: hmm, above works for me exactly... I just edit the (asdf:initialize-source-registry `(:source-registry :inherit-configuration (:tree "~/lisp-systems") (:directory "~/cvs/slime") (:tree "~/projects/lisp"))) and then Eval it from slime 17:01:47 and it adds adds the new dir 17:02:21 at least I thought it worked when I spent half a day a week or so ago converting to Asdf2 from ancient asdf1 I had 17:03:13 maxm: so you enumerate all your local paths each time you call initialize-source-registry? 17:03:28 well its kind of perma-stored in my ~/.sbclrc 17:03:59 maxm: that is the #2 option described by Fare, but not what I had in mind. 17:04:19 maxm: I'd like to be able to extend the configuration without recapping all previous extensions each time. 17:05:05 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-152-252.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:06:42 hmm I wondering if you specify :inherit, would not it preserve the previous conifg and effectively merge the two? 17:06:45 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:06:48 Nope. 17:07:07 Amyn1 [~abennama@cac94-2-87-91-21-215.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 17:07:10 I thought it would, but it does not. :inherit is inheriting the file-based and other internal configuration. 17:07:39 -!- MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-097-129-008.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:07:43 fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:59 -!- Amyn [~abennama@cac94-2-87-91-21-215.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:08:05 how come my SBCL contrib directories still work? I do :inherit, but do not specify SBCL there, just :inherit-configuration option, but (require :sb-sprof) and such still work 17:08:21 maxm: that's part of the internal configuration bit. 17:09:33 well that kind of sucks... Hacking on it would be hard, at least myself was greatly confused by the code 17:09:50 took me almost half a day to come up with per/policy output translation hack 17:10:28 that's why i'm glad asdf:*central-registry* works, and asdf:*system-definition-search-functions* works. 17:10:55 that's sufficient to hook in pretty much anything 17:11:18 but I have to admin even if I don't understand it, asdf2 works great so far.. SBCL starts under 3 seconds loading around 10 systems, none of that "I'll recompile stuff when I feel like it" 17:11:25 s/admin/admit 17:12:58 the tree configuration is pretty handy 17:14:18 but internals honestly could have been clearer.. Thats why I like demacs, very clean/easy to extend design, pure CLOS done normal way (find-class (format nil "~A-DEFINER" (symbol-name foo))) rather then silly defmethods that specialize on (eql param 'whatever) like asdf does it 17:14:19 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:15:47 Soon we'll be able to drop asdf and use a smaller, cleaner system that does everything everyone ever wanted and more. 17:15:55 you're kidding right? The first snippet just fakes eql specialisers, clumsily. 17:18:40 -!- frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-97-249.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:18:51 micro [~micro@www.bway.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:57 pkhuong: well maybe not that particular thing, I meant the ease of understanding / extending the code... Its like "i know it when I see it". Ie I stared at asdf.lisp output-translation code for hours, and i have no clue how it works or what its flow is 17:19:19 but i could draw how demacs works after 30 seconds of looking through the code 17:20:12 determining whether that's a sign of differences in intrinsic or accidental complexities is left as an exercise to the reader. 17:21:21 other code that gave me similar feeling is CommonQt (even tho it does lots of complicated things for perfomance), ppcre i think, stumpwm, arnesi code walker... 17:22:49 Xach: who is working on it btw? The asdf replacement 17:23:38 <_8david> CommonQt is actually in need of yet more complicated things (in order to get MORE PERFORMANCE). 17:23:54 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 17:24:31 <_8david> But I appreciate the sentiment; it was meant to be "as complex as it needs to be", and no more. 17:24:44 _8david: you the author? 17:25:41 maxm: nobody yet 17:25:54 dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:07 so maybe "soon" is optimistic 17:26:48 I guess if nikodemus ends up doing the work on the global compiler lock, then a system for CL like the raco system in racket would be possible. 17:27:34 I like how when racket bootstraps, it detects the number of cpus and then fires off that many build threads. 17:28:17 _8david: I sent a patch that for me reduces cpu usage on commonqt greatly (by around 80%) 17:28:29 Fade: yeah... the dependencies in SBCL are pretty horrible though. For instance, the order in which transforms are defined matters. 17:28:39 <_8david> yes, I'm the guy not merging anyone's patches 17:28:40 *Fade* nods 17:28:48 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:29:08 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 17:29:35 _8david: the bottleneck was the (qmethod-name) which is called every time when overriding Qt virtual functions (because overriding is done by qmethod-name => symbol) hashtable 17:30:11 so i added simply hash for qmethod-name, qtype-name and qclass-name (from the tagged integer representation) and it dropped my cpu usage from 100% not being able to keep up with mouse, to cilky smooth 17:31:55 <_8david> I forget, did your mail come with a (micro)benchmark? 17:32:11 no 17:32:31 <_8david> (if there's anything CommonQt needs more urgently than performance fixes, it's benchmarks to ensure that the fixes going in are doing the right thing) 17:32:49 well i think I'll fork the project on github and let you pick and choose anything, because I have lots of hacks already to it 17:33:12 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:33:42 <_8david> maxm: stassats and ivan4th are also committers; if you can convince them to put stuff into upstream (or at least their branches) instead of having an Nth fork, that would be nice 17:34:13 qvector marshalling support (to make qpolygons), qpoint* marshalling support, automatic printing of Qrect,Qpoint,QTransforms/QSize (ie why not print the values, its shorter then printing its address) 17:34:18 <_8david> I'm not going to _really_ work on CommonQt until later this year 17:34:25 fancy dotted syntax that ppl would hate but I love it :-) 17:35:32 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 17:35:42 <_8david> keep the patches coming; especially self-contained ones; test cases a big plus. Preferably to the list, not to me, so that they get archived instead of forgotten. 17:35:52 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 17:36:25 ok, I'll have to rebase and clean up, as I'm in the process of pretty rapid development right now 17:36:38 you seen the video of a charting app I'm making with it? 17:36:59 I'd like to see that. 17:37:08 the video 17:37:18 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_3uxHkGsj0 17:37:27 thanks 17:37:49 Sa[i]nT [~SAINT@fl-67-235-178-42.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:28 this was from around 4 days ago, cleaned it up a bit since then, added running box on the Y-axis to highlight current price, and and arrow pointing to it, simular to Ensign... Also video quality does not show, there is actually a grid drawn 17:38:42 that's pretty neat. 17:40:24 *maxm* spent last few days re-factoring / splitting the code... 17:40:26 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@218.235.8.175] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:40:44 is this for a private system? 17:41:16 yea 17:41:33 LiamH [~healy@pool-108-18-174-79.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:09 but I can release the charting part, need to abstract out the data, but data is really a list of bars, nothing fancy 17:45:22 Xach: what is the best way to debug "couldn't fork child process: No such file or directory" when trying to run buildapp on windows? 17:46:54 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:47:31 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-161-7.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:51:50 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 17:52:05 see what file or directory is missing... 17:52:17 or change the scripts to point to the proper ones... 17:52:43 -!- pnq [~nick@172.163.17.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:56:39 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:58:18 scorpil [~voffka@77.126.202.31] has joined #lisp 17:58:52 -!- EyesIsMine [~Eyes@unaffiliated/eyesismine] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:01:15 homie: have you used buildapp on windows? Can you successfully run the Hello world application from the example use section? 18:03:52 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:05:36 so it turns out I have a lisp development environment set up 18:05:43 i kinda played my way into it 18:14:56 Kenjin: no sorry, i'm not on windows... 18:14:58 eyes_ [~eyes@unaffiliated/eyesismine] has joined #lisp 18:15:29 homie: ok thanks 18:16:08 -!- eyes_ is now known as EyesIsMine 18:17:48 sellout [~Adium@12.14.148.121] has joined #lisp 18:19:01 Kenjin: Are you asking for lisp that runs good on windows? 18:20:21 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 18:21:08 jmbr [~jmbr@curio.mat.ucm.es] has joined #lisp 18:21:18 i think that's clisp 18:21:25 frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-97-249.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:04 -!- katesmith_ is now known as katesmith 18:22:04 -!- sellout [~Adium@12.14.148.121] has quit [Client Quit] 18:22:41 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:22:45 Kenjin: https://github.com/akovalenko/sbcl-win32-threads/wiki http://common-lisp.net/project/lispbox/ 18:24:32 lanthan_ [~ze@p54B7A8B9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:31 And I suggest the lispbox, it's pretty neat. 18:27:33 -!- lanthan [~ze@p54B7D0B6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:28:25 Sa[i]nT: it looks like it uses clozureCL; isn't that 64-bit only? 18:28:43 jasom: The lispbox is 32 bit. 18:28:54 oh, it looks like there's an x86 version of clozuerCL now 18:29:14 It uses emacs as an editor. 18:29:27 And it all runs by it's self without installation. 18:29:39 that's nice 18:30:17 how stable is it on windows? Last time I tried sbcl and clisp on windows they both were unstale 18:30:32 clisp on MS-Windows is higly STABLE. 18:30:39 It runs very very nice. 18:30:56 ccl on MS-Windows, I never tried, but the x86 compiler is "old" now, both on Linux and MacOSX... 18:31:05 cool 18:31:31 I've been on linux amd64 for so long now I haven't tried anything on 32-bit or windows for 3 years or so 18:33:10 Im uploading an image so you can see what it looks like. 18:33:51 I gather ccl works pretty well on windows 18:34:39 http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t74/Saint_Belmont/lispbox_screenshot.png 18:35:45 And I'm running win7 64bit. 18:37:01 -!- kslt1 [~karl.sier@netblock-208-127-156-174.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:37:04 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 18:39:08 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 18:40:52 dshep [~dss@li90-50.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 18:45:34 slash_ [~unknown@p54A8F09B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:52 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p54A8F09B.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 18:48:40 xan_ [~xan@195.70.20.106] has joined #lisp 18:55:45 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.38.98.102] has joined #lisp 18:56:25 -!- oGMo [~rpav@66.219.59.103] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:56:35 katesmith_ [~katesmith@97-89-229-3.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:56:36 -!- katesmith_ [~katesmith@97-89-229-3.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 18:56:36 katesmith_ [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 18:56:36 oGMo [~rpav@66.219.59.103] has joined #lisp 18:57:11 lakatos [53a6d29d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.83.166.210.157] has joined #lisp 18:57:33 Hey guys 18:57:45 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:57:59 Does anyone here have an idea how much a lisp machine would cost? :) 18:57:59 -!- katesmith_ is now known as katesmith 18:58:25 Or an Alpha? 18:58:27 about USD 4000 - 5000, plus transport, which might be costly. 18:58:41 Wow... 18:59:00 it might be cheaper to procure a MacII and an Ivory card, but AFAIR, the total was on the same order. 18:59:26 Well, all I would like to do is to experience Genera in one form or another 18:59:54 For geek cred, you know :) 19:00:04 There's a pirate Genera VM running on Linux 64-bit... 19:00:06 Is there any way to do that? 19:00:23 Pirate? 19:00:40 Yes, it's legal status is worse than fuzzy. 19:00:53 I see... 19:01:05 And where would one procure this VM? 19:01:14 On the other hand, nobody will go after you. 19:01:21 lakatos: be smart. 19:01:50 I will 19:02:13 but for now I'll out some stupid questions 19:02:16 Now, setting up an Alpha system is feasible, and not too costly, but then you'd have to find a Genera copy to buy, which is rather hard too. Perhaps even harder than finding the pirate VM copy... 19:02:18 put* 19:02:39 Yeah, I wanted to ask about that 19:02:55 I see that the symbolics website isn't up anymore 19:03:00 Symbolics sold its domain name a couple of years ago :-( 19:03:30 How am I supposed to ask them about their software then? 19:03:44 lispbuilder-sdl works 19:03:46 the website here, claims to have a sales channel: http://www.symbolics-dks.com/ 19:03:49 hmmmmmmmm 19:04:00 but considering the state of that web, I think it's probably dodgier than bittorrent. 19:04:34 meh, eho knows 19:04:35 has there ever been a lisp machine on CL type of project? 19:04:58 movitz 19:05:18 Primarily why I want to check Genera out is to have an idea for something I might implement in the future as a Lisp development environment 19:05:20 which is more of a lisp primitives on the iron sort of deal. it doesn't express a full CL. 19:05:45 because Genera is praised so much 19:05:48 http://common-lisp.net/project/movitz/ 19:06:41 -!- frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-97-249.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:06:48 frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-97-249.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:54 -!- frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-97-249.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:07:21 has anyone got the VM working on modern versions of Linux? 19:07:44 It requires you set up a NTP server configured before 2000. 19:08:09 y2k bug? 19:08:13 yep. 19:08:20 wow... 19:08:31 it's that old? 19:08:45 I guess once you've booted it, you can correct the problem. 19:08:54 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.86.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:09:23 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@static-50-43-53-7.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:23 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@static-50-43-53-7.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:09:23 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 19:11:39 lakatos: You looking for this? http://www.unlambda.com/cadr/index.html 19:11:39 frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-97-249.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:23 so this is capable of running Genera? 19:13:25 -!- scorpil [~voffka@77.126.202.31] has left #lisp 19:13:42 No, it runs an ancestor of Genera. 19:15:30 pnq [~nick@AC81ECAF.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 19:15:51 I found a FAQ on Cliki that explains how to get a copy of OpenGenera running on a VM 19:16:33 lakatos: You should read over this. http://collison.ie/blog/2008/04/lisp-machines 19:17:49 I wonder just how (i)legal this is 19:18:26 About as legal as what's in your msgbox. 19:19:06 Everything is 0's and 1's to me. 19:19:56 I dunno. I kinda feel bad for stealing ancient and arcane software from a once great company that did something cool :P 19:20:21 You can't steal from a corpse. 19:20:38 lakatos: it's easy to send an email to symbolics-dks to see what their commercial offers are. 19:21:11 I will 19:21:49 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.38.98.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:22:58 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-159-63.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:23:40 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-159-63.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:10 -!- lakatos [53a6d29d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.83.166.210.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:28:17 Fade: it runs, but no one bothers to update the website afaik 19:28:48 pjb: it actually doesn't have y2k... 19:29:20 at least, mine didn't complain about date 19:31:48 lakatos [53a6d29d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.83.166.210.157] has joined #lisp 19:32:13 Damn linux froze on me for the first time 19:34:09 pjb: May I ask what your full name is? 19:35:38 are you Pascal Bourguignon? 19:36:15 -!- gemelen is now known as denisu 19:36:20 lakatos: the torrent with OpenGenera 2.0 iso on TPB was kinda blessed by Symbolics (look in comments). However, getting it running is a lot of work (unless you have all the ingredients in case of Linux... or you have an Alpha running OSF/1 with X11) 19:36:46 -!- denisu is now known as gemelen 19:37:02 Well, I just tried running it 19:37:17 and xserver froze :P 19:37:52 lakatos: X.Org 7.x doesn't support old apps ... :P 19:38:41 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 19:39:09 And so my firstand last foray into piracy has ended. With failure :P 19:39:12 more so, xcb-based xlib crashes snap4 19:39:57 So my only solution would be to set up an old version of linux with an old version of X on a vm :P 19:39:59 denisu [~shelta@amber.merseine.nu] has joined #lisp 19:40:50 that's what I have, but no way I'm pushing it through again... ask around, someone with faster network might have it ready :P 19:40:53 -!- ramus [~ramus@c-76-28-156-218.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:41:00 also, there's supposedly an official port to OSX 19:41:33 I'll find out what it takes to run it. 19:41:58 THat really doesn't help me :P Macs are virtually inexistent in my country 19:42:18 -!- denisu [~shelta@amber.merseine.nu] has quit [Client Quit] 19:42:26 Microsoft dominates the market entirely :)) 19:42:40 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:42:50 Sa[i]nT: get X.Org 6.8 or earlier, set up NFSv2 so that the VM can access its files, set DATETIME or NTP server. 19:43:03 *p_l|backup* used datetime and had no y2k bug 19:43:30 ramus [~ramus@c-76-28-156-218.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:06 katesmith [~katesmith@97-89-229-3.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:44:06 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@97-89-229-3.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 19:44:06 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 19:44:55 Hunden [~Hunden@e180107204.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:44:56 -!- Hunden [~Hunden@e180107204.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:45:01 Hunden [~Hunden@e180107204.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:45:52 How do I set DATETIME? 19:47:20 ask your date partner!? 19:47:22 lol 19:47:27 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Protocol <--- follow the links 19:48:24 denisu [~shelta@amber.merseine.nu] has joined #lisp 19:48:33 Oh, yeah, I know what that is :) 19:49:37 -!- Hunden [~Hunden@e180107204.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:50:40 p_l|backup: wrt "it runs" do you mean movitz or opengenera? 19:50:42 does genera code have anything interesting in it? 19:50:43 lakatos: http://www.stromasys.ch/personalalpha/ 19:51:02 rlb3 [~rlb@70-140-33-120.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:00 what? This is real? Oh joy :) 19:52:06 Fade: Symbolics 19:52:07 *maxm* remember downloading the torrent, and I still have it somewhere, but after untaring and looking at it it was "well its typical lisp code, full of I'll reinvent a better wheel" macros 19:52:15 ah 19:52:42 Sa[i]nT: I doubt personal alpha is a good candidate... one of their commercial solutions, though... 19:53:03 p_l|backup: worth checking out. 19:53:04 Yeah, I see the freeware only has 128 megs of memory 19:53:21 Hunden [~Hunden@e180107204.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:53:23 Doubt it's enough for OpenGenera 19:53:32 If it works in a feasible way I'll get the commercial version. 19:53:35 qemu will emulate various machine types. 19:53:49 I have no idea if it's of any use in getting something like genera running. 19:54:16 oh hey we are talking about genera 19:54:28 Yep :) 19:55:47 I'm reading all sorts of snipets on how awesome it is and makes me wish the AI Winter never happened :P 19:55:54 z1l0g [jgw@sverige.sdf.org] has joined #lisp 19:56:15 lakatos, Keep in mind the context in which it's called awesome 19:56:51 It's called awesome in comparison with even modern IDE-s 19:57:17 Which is why I would lke to check it out 19:57:25 Cause I am kinda skeptical 19:57:37 dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:55 when genera was roaming the earth, it offered a degree of introspection that wasn't really available anywhere else. 19:58:01 That's highly debatable now. SLIME is very good and does a good job. 19:58:03 But I would like for it to be true :) 19:58:10 *z1l0g* ISO tips porting hedgehog to netbsd 19:58:12 some subset of that type of functionality is available now in good lisp environments. 19:58:29 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:58:48 'course, apparently the symbolics C implementation apparently also made some of those features available to C developers, so maybe that's a place where genera would still shine. 19:58:52 Fade: QEmu doesn't emulate Alpha outside cpu (which allows you to run linux/alpha binaries on other architectures... and not much more) 19:58:54 zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has joined #lisp 19:59:20 ahh... I haven't looked into it, but I do remember using qemu to boot/test debian-sparc installation images. 19:59:23 Yeah, I read about that. Energize it was called 19:59:53 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-161-7.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:55 Fade: Qemu has system-level emulation for some Sparc-based systems. None so for Alpha 19:59:56 No, wait, that was Lucid's 20:00:08 -!- zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:00:21 and of course the whole "lisp to the chips" thing offered opportunities to do crazy stuff to the system while it ran. 20:00:28 my head is all messed up. It's kinda late, I guess I'll be going 20:00:38 -!- lakatos [53a6d29d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.83.166.210.157] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:01:04 what I'm personally more interested would be easy UI etc. 20:01:04 I think genera at this point is only interesting as a starting point to postulate what _could_ have happened if it had lived. 20:01:07 would be fun to have a simple embedded Lisp Machine 20:01:15 p_l|backup: aye. ditto 20:01:23 Fade, I agree entirely 20:01:28 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-161-7.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:01:50 z1l0g: fire up stumpwm on your sytem. 20:02:02 that's pretty close to having a lisp machine. 20:02:03 ;) 20:02:05 it's on my list 20:02:09 :) 20:02:18 hmm it seems quicklisp is full of hu.dwim libraries 20:02:42 the hu.dwim stuff has been getting merged into the dist bit by bit. 20:02:48 *maxm* tried loading "reiterate" which name indicates could be better iterate, but it would not compile 20:03:05 (during macroexpansion of (DEF WITH-MACRO ...)) 20:03:06 ; The function HU.DWIM.DEF::REVERSEF is undefined. 20:03:30 the hu.dwim stuff relies on a pile of self-referential utilities and syntax 20:03:52 it's practically a separate dialect of lisp. 20:04:56 Quadrescence: was that your lisp machine video that got linked in here yesterday? 20:04:56 meh but I thought ql was like a package manager 20:05:23 <_8david> WFM: hu.dwim.def imports alexandria, which exports reversef 20:05:36 <_8david> I'm on much older versions of those libraries though. 20:05:54 Fade, yeah 20:06:03 you have a macivory? 20:06:14 Fade, I have two 20:06:18 ah I must have tons of really old libraries still 20:06:18 nice 20:06:24 luis: I think I need to add an argument to defcstruct, :existing-class, for e.g. 'complex where I don't want to make the class. 20:06:24 do you use them? 20:06:28 should probably nuke my old lisp-systems dir and reload them with ql 20:06:31 Fade, I use the one in the video 20:06:40 for what? 20:07:08 For a lisp when my desktop breaks, i.e., now. (I'm on a dumb netbook right now for IRC). 20:07:38 does genera include the ratified ANSI CL, or CLtL2? 20:07:54 *p_l|backup* just found a modern STREAMS support for Linux, is tempted to CFFI it 20:08:10 Fade: 8.5 supported ANSI, iirc 20:08:18 Fade: might require setting syntax to ANSI, though 20:08:26 I have been wanting to pick up a lispmachine for my private collection of ancient cool stuff for a long time. 20:08:39 where did you buy it, Quadrescence? 20:08:48 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-161-7.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:56 Fade, ~connections~ 20:09:02 *Fade* chuckles 20:09:23 Fade: Symbolics still sell them, though I think they might have run out of physical ones and only have OG2 systems 20:09:57 I had a line on an XL1200 a couple of years ago, but the deal fell through. 20:10:30 -!- jp_larocque [jabber-irc@number-41.thoughtcrime.us] has left #lisp 20:11:08 p_l|backup, they'll sell you hardcopies of 100 page manuals for 50 USD a pop, too! 20:11:10 Fade: I recall someone buying an OG2 system (EV56 or EV6, with graphics card and I think 512MB ram) few years ago from symbolics 20:11:23 *Fade* nods 20:18:27 -!- ngz [~user@171.203.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:22:31 TeMPOraL [~user@cpc12-oxfd18-2-0-cust64.4-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:23:14 p_l|backup: where ? 20:23:35 *maxm* gives up on hu.dwim staff, even their def fails to load with nothing but quicklisp systems 20:24:08 problem seems to be namespace.lisp references the (with-macro) stuff, which is after it in the .asd file, so it fails to compile 20:25:50 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 20:26:09 ecraven [~user@140.78.42.213] has joined #lisp 20:31:09 -!- gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:31:22 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has joined #lisp 20:31:44 zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has joined #lisp 20:32:25 Kenjin: trace sb-ext:run-program perhaps? 20:33:07 fe[nl]ix: can't point to it now, was mentioned on some blog of rather quirky lisper (it was bought for commercial use, actually...) 20:33:43 -!- frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-97-249.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:34:19 first stage is growing a beard, then buying lisp machine... That way lies becoming rms 20:34:53 *maxm* is currently at growing a beard stage (figured I should try it while I'm unemployed) 20:36:21 *anvandare* can't grow a beard :( 20:36:29 forever a milkface 20:36:31 maxm: it's not worth it 20:36:48 fe[nl]ix: how would I know it if I never try :-) 20:37:01 maxm: I was almost there, I had a beard so long some mistook me for a christian orthodox monk 20:37:07 but it itches too much 20:37:19 lol.. I have no prob with itching but I'm only doing it for like 6 weeks 20:37:41 *maxm* actually had never been happier in my life.. I worked straight for 12 years or so, taking 1 vacation 20:39:01 so having time to actually do stuff I like to do is awesome 20:39:50 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81ECAF.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:41:19 maxm: it will take at least a couple of years to get a respectable beard 20:42:43 lol thats more of a "I would like to look like zz-top" beard... /me is shooting for more like a lame hipster type beard 20:43:52 if you're going to do it, go for broke: http://cdn.thenextweb.com/apps/files/2010/07/mustache_championship_02.jpg 20:44:53 p_l|backup: is it this one: http://email.gcom.com/home/linux/lis/ ? 20:46:28 fe[nl]ix: no, that's the old, discontinued one. OpenSS7 has continued it as Linux Fast-STREAMS 20:47:55 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:48:58 ngz [~user@171.203.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:47 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-191-108.vologda.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:53:06 -!- zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:54:14 Dear lispers, could anyone help me with this paste? http://paste.lisp.org/display/124323 I need to delay the evaluation of *session-key* until execution time. What is the best way to do this? 20:54:32 *redline6561* brain is failing him 20:55:15 redline6561: don't splice *session-key* in. 20:55:22 redline6561: '(acons "sk" *session-key* '()) 20:55:52 fisxoj [~fisxoj@71.167.167.178] has joined #lisp 20:56:12 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 20:56:16 That makes good sense. Thanks gentlemen. 20:59:05 btw, regarding lisp machines, Peter Paine apparently ran a Symbolics shop and still has some hw 20:59:12 http://www.asl.dsl.pipex.com/symbolics/ 20:59:19 -!- jewel_ [~jewel@196-215-88-11.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:59:36 leo2007 [~leo@58.22.113.112] has joined #lisp 21:01:54 -!- rlb3 [~rlb@70-140-33-120.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 21:02:42 would be interesting to get some hw details and replace parts with new custom made ones... Mr. Paine has one old example in the form of a big 3rd party memory card 21:03:27 -!- Joreji [~thomas@83-060.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:10:37 My boss is a lisp machine nut. I know he has two 3650s in the office with docs, new monitor, new keyboard. And his garage is full of junk (for a high value of JUNK). 21:14:44 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-181-214-224.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:45 Xach: thanks. Will try that. 21:15:39 well, I'm planning on relieving Peter Paine of one of his keyboards at least :D 21:17:16 -!- jasom [~aidenn@ip98-182-25-247.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:19:02 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-167-60.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:21:49 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@71.167.167.178] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:28:38 jasom [~aidenn@ip98-182-25-247.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:55 pnq [~nick@ACA236DB.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 21:31:22 urandom__ [~user@p548A34B1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:28 -!- leo2007 [~leo@58.22.113.112] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 21:43:05 -!- Hunden [~Hunden@e180107204.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:45:44 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-181-214-224.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:52:16 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-154-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:54 -!- z1l0g [jgw@sverige.sdf.org] has quit [Quit: That's it for today] 21:58:58 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@cpc12-oxfd18-2-0-cust64.4-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:59:19 TeMPOraL [~user@cpc12-oxfd18-2-0-cust64.4-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:59:56 -!- anvandare [~anvandare@78-22-146-198.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:01:43 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:03:11 -!- ngz [~user@171.203.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:04:11 anvandare [~anvandare@78-22-146-198.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 22:05:21 -!- redline6561 is now known as redline6561_afk 22:07:41 Kenjin: is sbcl in your path? 22:09:29 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-181-214-224.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 22:12:43 if not, you can explicitly specify where to find it 22:14:25 Xach: it is. (sb-posix:getenv "PATH") shows it 22:17:15 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-108-18-174-79.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:17:28 Xach: I built the buidapp binary with (buildapp:build-buildapp) and am trying to run the hello world example. I'm using Lisp Cabinet on Windows XP. 22:17:58 Kenjin: i've had success there 22:19:02 Xach: on windows command line if I use the example as is, it complains about odd number of arguments 22:19:56 However, if I supply the eval value in quotation marks I get the couldn't fork child process: No such file or directory error 22:20:56 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:22:58 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:23:49 quotemstr [~quotemstr@dancol.org] has joined #lisp 22:24:08 Are there any painless CLOS-less approaches to polymorphism? 22:24:50 closures with lambdas in them? 22:25:00 :) 22:25:21 Hrm, actually, that _is_ a fairly simple approach. 22:25:27 *quotemstr* was thinking of something defstruct-based. 22:25:45 *sykopomp* was trying to suggest something ridiculous. 22:26:08 quotemstr: why clos-less? 22:26:33 p_l|backup: CLOS for elisp is fairly slow. 22:26:38 and well, there were two prototype-based object systems... or maybe three 22:26:53 quotemstr: have a nickel, buy yourself a real lisp? 22:26:56 the book "Let over Lambda" is all about that 22:28:00 Xach: also, would something like buildapp --asdf-tree ~/myprojectpath --load-system project_name --entry main --output execfile be the correct way to create an executable application from a project created with quickproject? 22:28:12 there are some pains, namely you can't access the closure data by default for debugging purposes, and redefining functions typically don't change the behavior in existing closures 22:30:45 p_l|backup: A nickel isn't going to rewrite Emacs in a real Lisp. 22:31:27 According to a quick benchmark, (a-generic-function class-instance) is seven times slower than (funcall (mystruct-func struct-instance) struct-instance) 22:31:34 I wonder what the difference in a real Lisp is. 22:33:20 McOmghall [~quassel@77.209.169.212] has joined #lisp 22:33:43 zeroish [~zeroish@siphon.research.att.com] has joined #lisp 22:34:01 quotemstr: caching? 22:34:09 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-25-142.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 22:34:09 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-25-142.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 22:34:09 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 22:34:48 p_l|backup: I guess what bugs me about CLOS is that it's very difficult to make it efficient without fancy type inference. 22:34:52 Consider with-slots. 22:34:59 caching, smarter lookup algorithms. 22:35:17 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-155-195-89.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:35:19 How is a simple implementation supposed to know the relationship between the slot names and their locations in the object? 22:35:27 quotemstr: with caching. 22:35:48 *Phoodus* begins to detect a trend, but not quite sure yet 22:36:00 maybe if some people were to mention caching... 22:36:20 code on ice? memoize! 22:36:23 pkhuong: Sure, but at the very least, with-slots has to generate a check that ensures it's working with the same type it hit last time. 22:36:29 It reminds me of how TraceMonkey works. 22:36:35 Bah. 22:36:57 *quotemstr* considers adding a special case optimization for (with-slots (slots...) (the type object) ...) 22:37:39 -!- McOmghall [~quassel@77.209.169.212] has quit [Client Quit] 22:38:43 quotemstr: and how does that work with multiple inheritance? 22:39:04 pkhuong: Emacs CLOS doesn't support that. :-) 22:39:34 It also only supports dispatch on the first paremeter of a generic function. It's mostly a CLOS subset. 22:39:46 I was hoping that defstruct would be clever enough to allow this: 22:40:05 (defstruct base myfunc) (defstruct (derived (:include base)) (myfunc #'derived-impl)) 22:40:06 #emacs is probably better equipped to help you. 22:40:09 Alas, we can't redefine slots. 22:40:30 Or, if emacs's defstruct is like CL's, reading the documentation. 22:40:35 pkhuong: Well, my original question was more along the lines of "how did people implement polymorphic behavior in pre-CLOS Lisp?" 22:47:28 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-217-153.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 22:48:45 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 22:51:10 Also, in SBCL, the two alternatives I presented are equally fast. 22:52:45 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:53:03 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 22:54:46 quotemstr: typecase? 22:58:38 jasom: Doesn't count because it's static. 22:59:10 We have (funcall (car (assq (car inst) handler-alist)) inst args...) 22:59:39 Or (funcall (get (car inst) 'do-foo-func) inst args...) 22:59:53 or (funcall (foo-func inst) inst) 23:00:09 quotemstr: or hash-tables 23:00:10 or (funcall inst 'operation args...) 23:00:50 and typecase doesn't have to be static if you allow function redefinitions 23:01:10 you can just regenerate the wrapper function on each new defmethod 23:01:31 Good point. 23:01:47 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-181-214-224.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:01:57 But if I'm going to create that infrastructure, I might as well fix the CLOS implementation. 23:02:10 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:03:09 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl5-138-98.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:03:29 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-217-153.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:04:17 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-217-153.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 23:05:11 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-181-214-224.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:09 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:08:59 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl5-138-98.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 23:11:09 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 23:13:35 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.38.98.102] has joined #lisp 23:15:11 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.131.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:17:09 -!- RenJuan [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: RenJuan] 23:23:00 -!- xan_ [~xan@195.70.20.106] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:23:55 How do people usually document structure slots? There's no documentation slot option. 23:24:05 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-217-153.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:25:59 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 23:26:20 H4ns`` [~user@pD4B9E905.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:49 Kenjin: which example? 23:30:05 am0c [~am0c@222.235.49.72] has joined #lisp 23:30:12 -!- H4ns` [~user@p4FFC94AF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:30:12 Xach: hello world from the buildapp page 23:30:55 Kenjin: Perhaps windows has different shell quoting conventions? 23:30:58 Xach: also I've discovered that (sb-ext:run-program "echo" '("hi")) yields the same "couldn't fork child process" i've mentioned before 23:31:12 Do you have echo.exe somewhere? 23:31:37 Xach: running echo "hi" on the cli works fine 23:32:27 Kenjin: echo is often a builtin 23:32:35 dunno much about emacs though. 23:32:39 err, windows, not emacs 23:33:17 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-165-188.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:33:20 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-152-252.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:33:23 Xach: search for echo.exe shows that it is in C:\cygwin\bin 23:33:40 -!- cl-user [~user@HSI-KBW-109-192-059-240.hsi6.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:33:46 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-183-86.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:34:30 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-183-86.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:35:59 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-152-252.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:36:11 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:39:24 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.222] has joined #lisp 23:39:57 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:41:17 -!- DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:41:24 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:44:54 DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #lisp 23:45:17 ISF [~ivan@201.82.131.254] has joined #lisp 23:45:33 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-155-195-89.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:47:03 -!- sid3k`` [~user@li298-167.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:47:25 Is there a type specifier for proper-list-of-T that can be specified without using SATISFIES? 23:53:20 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.160.2] has joined #lisp 23:54:22 superflit [~superflit@71-208-219-129.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:24 Kenjin: note the :search keyword in run-program 23:55:01 spawning a command from most languages does not hit the search path; that's a feature of the shell, not of the OS per se 23:55:07 -!- quotemstr [~quotemstr@dancol.org] has left #lisp 23:55:20 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:55:31 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:55:47 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 23:55:56 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:57:59 superflit_ [~superflit@71-208-213-80.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:56 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-208-219-129.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:58:56 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit