00:00:15 Eataix [~Eataix@130.56.93.42] has joined #lisp 00:00:30 found the problem. i wasn't properly initializing from my command-line arguments. 00:00:48 i was trying to use an executable core as a plain core, which only started working with the very latest commit. 00:05:24 works properly now 00:06:05 man how come every jonny that has on blogspot is now a geek 00:06:58 benny` [~benny@i577A8DF5.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 00:07:02 *maxm* is frustrated with all his co-workers being right about appl, to think I was laughing at them in 2005-2006 for loading up on it 00:07:39 -!- benny [~benny@i577A7CF2.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:08:33 -!- benny` is now known as benny 00:10:20 maybe the word changed its meaning somewhere in the 2000's? 00:26:56 -!- am0c [~am0c@121.161.203.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:27:22 -!- frhodes [~frhodes@75-173-84-172.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:28:32 -!- oconnore 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[~nostoi@112.Red-79-151-107.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:51 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 05:24:12 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:24:57 -!- frhodes [~frhodes@75-173-84-172.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:26:16 -!- paul0 [~paul0@189.101.242.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:26:25 paul0 [~paul0@189.101.242.184] has joined #lisp 05:29:06 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@112.Red-79-151-107.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 05:35:28 frhodes [~frhodes@75-173-84-172.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:46:25 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-176.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:49:01 -!- pcavs [~paul@c-65-96-169-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:51:17 -!- oconnore [~Eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:51:43 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has joined #lisp 05:52:59 hmm, slime's macroexpand is a nice way to learn about lisp features :) 05:59:16 oudeis [~oudeis@93-173-184-74.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 06:01:03 gko [~gko@42-72-210-186.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 06:02:57 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 06:02:58 zelak_ [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has joined #lisp 06:04:17 -!- zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:04:18 What's the right way to load required libraries in a source file? 06:04:27 ASDF 06:04:52 zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has joined #lisp 06:08:07 -!- zelak_ [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:08:29 Amyn [~abennama@64.208.49.45] has joined #lisp 06:09:55 Currently I'm calling (ql:quickload) for the libraries that are needed. I gather that's not the right way. 06:10:48 -!- rolando [~user@188.89.166.178.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:11:18 OODavo: that's when you're developping. 06:11:19 <_3b> OODavo: make a .asd file for your project, and load that with ql:quickload instead 06:12:17 Ah, I see. 06:12:22 take a look at quickproject 06:13:19 or check any of those "ql:quickload"ed respective .asd file. 06:14:12 and modify for your project, and add your directory to asdf:*central-registry* and you're set. 06:20:35 l1j8j8w9 [~lud@186.66.247.151] has joined #lisp 06:23:41 Okay, now I've got an .asd file and the like thanks to quickproject. 06:24:00 But it looks like I can only load it using (asdf:load-system)? 06:24:12 -!- l1j8j8w9 [~lud@186.66.247.151] has left #lisp 06:26:17 <_3b> ql uses asdf to load things 06:26:35 <_3b> it just adds the ability to load things that areb't already there :) 06:26:42 <_3b> *aren't 06:28:15 Yeah. If all your systems are on your machine, you don't really need quicklisp, asdf.lisp would be enough. 06:29:12 I was thinking there'd be a way to just allow "clisp file.lisp" to load all the dependencies too. :/ 06:29:18 ... if all your needed systems 06:29:58 <_3b> if you only have a single file and want to use it like that, loading dependencies directly in the file isn't too unreasonable 06:30:29 But that won't work as soon as there are multiple source files? 06:30:32 You could clisp -i asdf.lisp -x '(asdf:load-system :xxx)' 06:30:58 or add the asdf.lisp loading in your .clisprc 06:31:06 jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-88.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:31:13 <_3b> it could work, but it starts getting messier 06:31:38 for multiple source files, you'll have to deal with directories, etc... 06:32:18 <_3b> once you have more than 1 file, you have to load them in teh right order, so you will start to regret putting the loading into one of them as soon as tou decide that one shouldn't actually have been first :) 06:32:39 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:32:55 Ah. Good point. 06:32:58 -!- nhonhonho [~nhonhonho@186.214.201.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:33:19 Also, by using the asdf route, your project will be more portable among the Lisp implementations... 06:33:47 -!- zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:35:44 Hm, odd. clisp -x "(asdf:load-system 'site-gen)" works fine. 06:35:57 But clisp start.lisp, where start.lisp contains the exact same expression, does not. 06:36:42 For example, I need to distribute some executable in clisp and needed to use regular expressions... I could either use clisp own implementation or use cl-ppcre... Since I develop in LispWorks, I used cl-ppcre... 06:38:39 OODavo: I think "clisp start.lisp" doesn't run your .clisprc, I think. 06:38:51 mm 06:38:58 Ah. 06:39:13 My .clisprc would be what's loading Quicklisp. 06:40:13 How about: clisp -i $HOME/.clisprc start.lisp ? 06:41:00 Yep, that works. 06:41:52 Looks like -i alone makes it still source .clisprc, actually. clisp -i start.lisp does work. 06:45:02 "clisp start.lisp" is run start.lisp and exit, so it should be able to run on its own and not rely on the user's configuration. 06:45:49 nhonhonho [~nhonhonho@186.214.201.186] has joined #lisp 06:46:25 Makes sense. 06:46:38 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 06:50:29 khaliG [~khali@203.171.126.201.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:51:19 so, a start.lisp for a project to run like this would have to load asdf.lisp, set up the registry variable, load-system a few times and start the main code... 06:51:39 -!- am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.65] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:51:59 or save an image with everything already loaded... 06:53:21 am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.65] has joined #lisp 06:53:22 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:54:30 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:54:55 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 06:57:29 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 06:59:06 aliaosha [~user@115.50.22.242] has joined #lisp 07:01:24 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-217-153.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 07:04:24 blumbri_ [~blumbri@c-67-181-176-186.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:05:26 -!- blumbri_ [~blumbri@c-67-181-176-186.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:07:11 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 07:08:08 blandest [~blandest@85.204.33.242] has joined #lisp 07:08:57 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-zuzicrbwtdpsgjqg] has joined #lisp 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08:57:52 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-208-202-202.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:57:52 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 08:58:05 pinterface [~pinterfac@173-20-55-85.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 08:58:25 manuel_ [~manuel_@xdsl-87-79-150-52.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:01:59 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:03:43 -!- Amyn [~abennama@64.208.49.45] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:03:57 slash_ [~unknown@p54A8E1E6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:05:17 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-71-174-61-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:05:37 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:06:50 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 09:07:23 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-217-153.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:08:29 What are people's thoughts on tpd2 vs. hunchentoot? 09:09:13 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:18:41 McOmghall [~quassel@77.209.141.152] has joined #lisp 09:19:03 silenius [~silenius@p4FFC9F24.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:19:49 megabright [~root_@41-133-183-236.dsl.mweb.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:20:04 -!- megabright [~root_@41-133-183-236.dsl.mweb.co.za] has left #lisp 09:21:55 -!- blumbri [~blumbri@c-67-181-176-186.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:23:00 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 09:26:17 Joreji [~thomas@64-073.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:29:51 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-109-67-211-114.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:30:58 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 09:32:27 oudeis [~oudeis@109.67.211.114] has joined #lisp 09:35:17 EyesIsMine [~eyes@unaffiliated/eyesismine] has joined #lisp 09:37:52 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-eqymfvtkuvttxjnq] has quit 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[~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has joined #lisp 10:06:52 -!- xyxu1 [~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:07:26 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:07:57 xyxu1 [~xyxu@58.41.56.51] has joined #lisp 10:10:36 xyxu2 [~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has joined #lisp 10:11:01 is there a standard way to silence *standard-output* and friends for period of time? 10:11:35 <_3b> bind them to (make-broadcast-stream) 10:11:37 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:11:42 -!- oudeis_ [~oudeis@bzq-79-181-214-224.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:11:54 -!- xyxu1 [~xyxu@58.41.56.51] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 10:11:55 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.56.51] has joined #lisp 10:13:10 -!- cnl [~cnl@95.83.136.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 10:14:10 _3b: but I don't want to permanently kill them. I will want to unbind them later. Hmm.. Need to study broadcast streams 10:14:36 <_3b> they are special variables, LET is good for setting those temporarily 10:14:46 algal: Bind them inside a (let) block, so they get unbound again when you're done. 10:14:49 algal: (let ((*standard-output* (make-broadcast-stream))) (do-whatever)) 10:15:07 <_3b> (or save and restore them by hand if you really need something more complicated) 10:15:13 -!- xyxu2 [~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:15:29 xyxu1 [~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has joined #lisp 10:15:35 Ah, okay. And since they are already special variables, I don't need to declare them special within the let or do anything else special in my binding form. 10:15:43 what happens if you do a setf inside a let on the same special variable? 10:16:02 <_3b> setf modifies the current binding 10:16:12 yeah 10:16:40 the special variable gets the old value once it exits the let. 10:16:47 cnl [~cnl@95.83.136.148] has joined #lisp 10:17:39 But actually, even if they weren't special, then the let will still shadow the original variable only for the scope of the let-form. So maybe it is irrelevant that they are special variables? 10:17:54 _3b: even if the setf occurs somewhere lexically outside the let? 10:18:23 algal: if they weren't, it wouldn't affect the code you are running inside the let 10:18:32 <_3b> Ralith: right 10:18:41 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.56.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:18:46 interesting. 10:19:25 thanks, folks. this is just what I needed. 10:19:44 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:19:59 -!- xyxu1 [~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:21:23 oudeis [~oudeis@93-173-184-74.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 10:21:59 Ralith: that's basically what "special" means, and would not be the case for normal lexical bindings 10:22:14 tfb: yes, I'm aware of the distinction 10:22:19 drdo: let also shadows surrounding let forms. so if they were (for instance) not special, then an inner let would still shadow them, yes? (I may be missing smthing basic here.) 10:22:23 just not of the details of how it interacts with assignment. 10:22:42 algal: only lexical ones 10:23:15 well, assignment is mutation of a binding, really. 10:23:57 algal: (let ((foo 1)) (defun bar () (print foo))) 10:23:59 <_3b> yeah, wouldn't work very well if it modified a binding it couldn't see :) 10:24:07 (let ((foo 3)) (bar)) 10:24:11 this prints 1, not 3 10:24:11 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 10:25:51 drdo: ah, okay. I get it. I was neglecting that of course I'm not passing *standard-output* to my forms of interest so that's why it matters that they're special. 10:36:39 ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 10:44:44 -!- EyesIsMine [~eyes@unaffiliated/eyesismine] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:46:45 -!- manuel_ [~manuel_@xdsl-87-79-150-52.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:48:34 manuel_ [~manuel_@xdsl-87-79-151-164.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:50:22 -!- manuel_ [~manuel_@xdsl-87-79-151-164.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 10:50:40 mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:50:40 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 10:50:40 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 10:54:03 -!- spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Quit: spacefrogg] 10:55:25 -!- gko [~gko@42-72-210-186.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [] 10:58:10 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@93-173-184-74.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:59:45 -!- Joreji [~thomas@64-073.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:03:10 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:03:32 Can someone redirect me to a clojure specific channel or should I talk about that here? 11:03:43 McOmghall: not here, no. 11:03:52 have you tried the obvious #clojure ? 11:04:07 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 11:04:17 oh, I thought it didn't exist 11:04:20 thank you 11:09:54 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-25-142.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 11:09:54 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-25-142.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 11:09:54 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 11:10:37 nicdev [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 11:12:30 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:13:07 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 11:13:15 nicdev__ [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 11:13:53 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:16:49 -!- nicdev [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:16:49 -!- nicdev__ is now known as nicdev 11:16:49 spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 11:16:50 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:19:14 Elench` [~user@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 11:19:45 *maxm* is surprised demacs package does not get more love 11:19:58 *maxm* just forked it on github to put in my patches in 11:20:37 -!- Elench [~user@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:20:56 its the best one of all the (cl-def, class-star) etc type packages.. CLOS extensible, very easy to extend with nifty stuff.. For example my logger library has 5 line integration :around method that makes default logger name be the function/method name 11:21:38 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-mganhckvwozlhlqc] has left #lisp 11:23:43 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:24:44 -!- billitch [~billitch@bastille.ma3.tv] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:25:52 -!- frhodes [~frhodes@75-173-84-172.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:26:11 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@catv-80-98-25-142.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 11:26:12 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 11:26:18 pavelludiq [~pavelludi@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 11:28:41 Joreji [~thomas@83-060.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:32:08 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-126-210.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:34:40 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-176.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:36:20 -!- paul0 [~paul0@189.101.242.184] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:36:28 paul0 [~paul0@189.101.242.184] has joined #lisp 11:39:51 maxm: maybe b/c google is certain you were looking for emacs? unfortunate name. 11:40:53 yea name is a bit unfortuate, but package itself is awesome 11:41:03 hmm 11:41:11 anyone knows what happened to abhishek.geek.nz? 11:41:20 seems to be unavailable for some time 11:41:23 :( 11:42:21 makes coding with CLOS bearable.. Ie (def (class nc) ...) automatically makes all the accessors (by default (member-name-of)).. using :accessor overrides it. 11:44:18 -!- nicdev [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: nicdev] 11:44:32 maxm: that does sound nice. but what's the point of using new definition forms for basic stuff like functinos, macros, generic methods? Is it just to impose uniformity on it all? 11:44:49 I don't use much fancy stuff in my day to day. 11:45:10 algal: automatically export names, ie (def (function e) foo ) is exported 11:45:23 so I don't have to maintain my exports in (package.lisp) 11:46:00 maxm: Hmmm... and if you're defining something internal to your package to you go back to defun? 11:46:26 algal: secondly you can put useful :around methods specializing on function-definer. For example mine wraps (progn (setq *default-logger-name* "package.foo")) around defun 11:46:40 so any (log-debug) statement go to logger named packege.function 11:46:44 misoczki [~misoczki@2001:660:3013:3:222:19ff:fe24:d155] has joined #lisp 11:46:47 maxm: just noticed the e that makes it experotable. 11:47:32 algal: thirdly, you can overload definer with your own and add more options. In my project that uses CommonQT I added (q) option, which runs code through (with-qt) macro, allowing me to write 11:48:24 maxm: Sounds quite cool, although you're going to end up using it so much you'll live in your own mini-language. which is quite alright, for many projects. I notice it's not on QL. is it not widely used? 11:48:53 (def (function q) make-my-widget () (let ((w new QMainWindow)) (w.setCentralWidget (new QWidget)) (w.centralWidget.addLayout (new QGridLayout)))) 11:49:16 for some reason its not widely known, but its pretty stable, I had been using it for 2-3 years 11:49:32 and author accepted most of the bugfixes I sent him 11:49:51 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-147.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:50:39 algal: I don't go to defun, just continue to use (def) for everything.. In fact rather then writing my own (defwhateverstuff) macros, I just add a definer class (interiting either from class-definer, or structure-definer or function-definer) 11:51:27 maxm: you're not worried about living in a mini-language? 11:51:44 its not a mini language really, just wraps (defun) 11:52:16 plus its ASDF installable and is on cliki, so if someone wants to use my packages, its easy to pull it 11:52:26 /query misoczki 11:52:51 maxm: I know. I just mean that if you used it consistently you will get less familiar with the quirks of the standard forms, and others will have a harder time reading your code if they want to use it, add to it, orhwatever.. 11:52:54 and it seems everyone and their dog has their own (defclass*) macro anyway, in each and every package, that does the same thing 11:53:11 maxm: interesting. didn't know that. 11:53:25 I don't 11:53:33 maxm: I'll wait until it shows up in QL, my walled garden of choice. 11:55:01 nicdev [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 11:55:30 rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:57:45 -!- algal [~anonymous@host-92-26-11-193.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: algal] 11:59:01 ost` [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 11:59:02 -!- ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:01:11 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-82-058.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:02:12 blumbri [~blumbri@c-67-181-176-186.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:32 hu.dwim.def? 12:04:35 these hu.dwim guys do not expire confidence in me, each time I go their website, the main page loads, but clicking on various links produces no results..or javascript errors etc. 12:04:40 does not inspire condifence in their framework 12:05:24 -!- cnl [~cnl@95.83.136.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 12:06:49 -!- nicdev [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: nicdev] 12:07:58 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:08:09 maxm: ff 3.6 bug, use anything else 12:09:18 I looked at it, and demacs is cleaner/more extensible due to being clos 12:09:58 -!- Elench` is now known as Elench 12:10:28 but hu.def has more definers for more stuff (ie def package, def definer etc).. Thing is I can very easily make equivalent definers with demacs, in 1/3'd the code due to using CLOS, it was one of its main selling points to me 12:11:24 attila_lendvai1: with ff4 I got various errors, with ff5 I just got another one. -> haven't been able to look at the site in ages (choice of browsers is limited in FreeBSD) 12:11:28 hmm its firefox 4 here, but I still get "there was error on the client side" dialog when I click on anything on dwim.hu site 12:11:44 pjb: hi 12:11:45 *attila_lendvai1* will be here more in a few minutes 12:12:08 attila_lendvai1: flagello di Dio 12:12:33 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 12:16:32 -!- superflit [~superflit@174-16-45-44.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:18:38 ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has joined #lisp 12:20:51 scottmaccal [~scottmacc@firewall.portland.lib.me.us] has joined #lisp 12:22:25 Good morning, you excellent lisps. 12:23:08 in general people underuse CLOS imho.. Every package that used CLOS sensibly, is a pleasure to work with, much easier then diving into a spagetti of lists, hashes, (def-my-own-thingies) etc... You can use tools like slime-who-specializes to qucikly get overview on whats going on 12:24:19 *maxm* uses clos in pretty much everything, unless I'm specifically doing perfomance/numeric type code.. Even there I start with CLOS, then profile, then optimize as needed 12:24:29 taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 12:25:26 -!- silenius [~silenius@p4FFC9F24.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:25:29 algal [~anonymous@host-92-26-11-193.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 12:25:56 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:26:19 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-165-188.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:26:38 http://paste.lisp.org/display/124288 <- What's a better way of doing this? 12:27:18 puzzle.txt is a matrix of numbers 12:27:34 samebchase: with-open-file 12:27:40 samebchase: with-open-file yes 12:28:20 Hmm.. And that ugly parse-integer coerce stuff? 12:28:22 samebchase: (parse-integer line :start j :end (1+ j)) or similar. 12:28:34 or better 12:28:40 (digit-char char) 12:28:44 sorry, digit-char-p 12:29:05 nothing wrong with it and what xach said... If you reading multi-gigabyte file, you can optimize b doing (- (code-char char) 48) to get the digit 12:29:20 maxm: that is way worse than digit-char-p. 12:29:22 maxm: no, use digit-char-p 12:29:23 err (char-code), not code-char 12:29:32 heh live and learn 12:29:35 samebchase: (coerce (list char) 'string) is better written (string char), if you were keeping that idea. 12:31:50 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 12:32:04 I'll try that... 12:32:33 Which? digit-char-p i hope? 12:34:18 you can never guess when CL would have some uncommon function built-in.. did even appeared to be to search for a built-in 12:34:31 s/to be/to me 12:34:35 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 12:34:40 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@173.239.83.228] has joined #lisp 12:34:54 -!- nano- [nano@xmms2/developer/nano] has left #lisp 12:35:44 Xach: I got confused with the p at the end 12:35:55 Xach: reading about digit-char-p now 12:36:55 how evil would it be to use ? at the end of a predicate instead of -p ? 12:37:18 You're writing CL, not Scheme. 12:37:25 As evil as looking sideways at a nun. 12:37:25 Convention makes reading easier. 12:37:27 i know it's not the default usage, but i wonder what the implications for users would be 12:37:31 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.165.77] has joined #lisp 12:37:36 Zhivago: hehe 12:37:53 Your users will think you're a hippie who writes Scheme. 12:38:06 maxm: It's one of my favorite functions. 12:38:47 regardless of what they think of me, as that's irrelevant, would it slow down development? could it be that the question mark was a clearer choice than p/-p? 12:39:15 Next you'll start having variables named "lst". 12:39:53 It works! 12:39:54 that too, is not the issue at hand 12:40:35 On a related note, is there a reason that atom is not atom-p? Or is this a inconsistency? 12:40:37 Mad, the question to ask yourself is why you wish to ignore convention when it exists for good reasons. In your head, really, both -p and ? ought to mean the same thing. 12:40:58 ChibaPet: because ? is easier to note than p/-p 12:41:20 Mad, then do it. 12:41:24 algal: there's a convention for what to use, i'll search for the exact one, as to not trouble your brain 12:41:27 Mococa [~Mococa@200.128.3.113] has joined #lisp 12:41:57 ChibaPet: no again, what would the implications be for current users. i'm asking how this would fool for people whom are not me. but apparently that question is far too complicated. 12:42:04 one should not adopt "CL so weird, it made my mind sharper" attitude.. Bad function naming choice is bad, and should be a lesson, not a celebration. That road leads to "psych you out" languages and obfuscated code competition. 12:42:07 My brain is untroubled, merely curious. 12:42:09 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:42:23 Mad, it's not complicated at all. Don't do it, I say. Use the understood convention for the language. 12:42:39 ChibaPet: also, unless you learn to use my nickname, i'm not responding anymore 12:43:00 Or, do it and realize that... wow, um, okay. Go to Hell. I was trying to be helpful. You can start including main() in your programs for all of me. 12:43:49 algal: http://www.cliki.net/naming%20conventions look at 'some additional style notes' 12:45:22 algal: so in its essence, it's a rather nice system 12:47:13 dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:29 mstevens [~mstevens@ceres.etla.org] has joined #lisp 12:48:29 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@ceres.etla.org] has quit [Changing host] 12:48:29 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 12:48:54 Mad, let me change my stance slightly. For you to be asking that question informs me of all I need to know about you. 12:49:56 Difficulty distinguishing predicates suggests glasses or a new field. 12:51:37 has anyone noticed a decline in the argumentation used in #lisp over the past 8 months or so? a question like this used to give me an insight into something nice. something like, would foo-bar? and foo-bar-? be as distinguishable as foo-barp and foo-bar-p? are... but now it leads to something i could've easily seen on #ruby. is this growing up? 12:52:11 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 12:52:17 s/foo-bar-p?/foo-bar-p/ (exentended the sentence, didn't remove the ?) 12:52:18 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:52:28 I suggest that you look at the questions. 12:53:01 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:53:04 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:53:06 But, there are no particularly good reasons for that choice. 12:53:08 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 12:53:13 don't feed the trolls. they will starve somewhen. 12:53:35 Schemers survive quite well using it -- they aren't rendered speachless by its pronunciation. 12:53:38 spacefrogg: seems more like weed to me 12:54:09 Don't get too troubled about three ASCII characters 12:54:09 spacefrogg: see what you have done? 12:54:23 Likewise CL programmers do not go insane dealing with predicates like sump. 12:54:56 Zhivago: no, but they do when they read your comments. my god you're annoying 12:55:09 madnificent: Why is that? :) 12:55:48 manificent: Anything insightful to offer? 12:55:54 conforming to the community standard convention is more valuable to me than making my predicates stand out. 12:56:33 -!- drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:56:53 it's as simple as that, i use ? in clojure and scheme happily 12:57:19 cnl [~cnl@95.106.38.199] has joined #lisp 12:58:30 -!- ecraven [~user@140.78.42.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:59:34 madnificent: Here's an insight for you -- maybe you're part of the problem. 13:00:03 so if '?' is one of the characters left to the programmer for use as a macro-character... is this not why it's use as a predicate suffix is frowned upon? 'style' or 'convention' aside 13:00:11 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:00:32 Inode: using it as a macro character at the beginning of a token would not interfere with using it as a symbol suffix. 13:00:33 Inode: Because inconsistency is expensive. 13:00:36 Inode: i don't quite understand what you're trying to say. i'm missing something. why is it left as a macro-character? 13:00:47 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 13:02:11 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-154-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:02:19 jdz: What have I done? 13:02:31 spacefrogg: not follow your own advice 13:02:46 Hm. Does that make me a troll? 13:02:52 pavelludiq: your comment makes sense. i was initially wondering whether -p had a particular reason (we had the ? when the earliest lisps arose). i also wondered how bad it would be to have both systems in use. having the convention makes sense. 13:03:10 spacefrogg: no, i responded to you ;) 13:03:13 madnificent: see, you did not even do your homework; and then you complain about the drop in conversation quality. 13:04:27 jdz: actually, i hadn't figured out that foo-bar-? and foo-bar? aren't as easily distinguished as foo-bar-p and foo-barp. it was algal's comment that made me realize that. 13:04:52 So what IS the community-accepted way to end the names of predicates? 13:05:01 Of course, you should be thinking of something realistic -- like sum? vs sump. 13:05:10 madnificent, Why do you wonder such things? Do you also wonder how bad it would be to have underscore_names as well? 13:05:12 samebchase: p or -p when there is 'hypen motion' 13:05:12 jdz: up to that point, i saw no reason why p would be better than ?, but so far lisp always seems right... so... well 13:05:16 samebchase: the convention is described in CLtL2 and reprinted on cliki 13:05:54 samebchase: http://www.cliki.net/naming%20conventions 13:06:05 froggey_ [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 13:06:20 Could somebody please summarize the insight we all gained through this? That would make this conversation less looking like a loss and would prove that quality didn't drop. 13:06:33 pavelludiq: no, there's not really anything better about _ versus - so... but it's still a valid question to ask yourself, i guess 13:06:46 spacefrogg: p -p is superior to ? -? 13:06:52 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 13:07:04 For what reason? 13:07:06 Unless you like to hum. 13:07:22 Or sum, rum. 13:07:33 ppl who are running out of macro characters, should consider the :invert readtables 13:07:55 Xach: ah thanks for the reference. my simplified understanding breaks down with e.g. string-lessp 13:07:59 But those people are generally bump. 13:08:13 it's a question of taste. established CL style is p/-p, estabilished Scheme style is ?. some codebases in either language use the opposite one. no-one dies, most people use the one that's the default idiom for the language they're using at the moment 13:08:19 *maxm* is running his commonqt project with inverted readtable, and had only 1 incompatibility so far (in demacs) which was easy to find 13:08:30 spacefrogg: in the understanding of the cliki page: it's easier to distinguish string-less-p and string-lessp than string-less-? and string-less? (perhaps it's because i saw p too much) 13:08:39 -!- paul0 [~paul0@189.101.242.184] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:08:45 paul0_ [~paul0@189.101.242.184] has joined #lisp 13:08:56 I think that the 'distinguishability' argument is clearly on the side of ? 13:08:56 Thank you all. 13:09:02 As any bum can tell you. 13:09:13 But it's not a very compelling argument to start with, so ... 13:09:21 spacefrogg, what the community already agrees upon is better than doing something else for aesthetic reasons 13:09:31 you can pronounce p, which is nice. ? stands out more, which is sometime nice and sometimes irritating. it doesn't really matter 13:09:35 pavelludiq: -? is hardly aesthetic :) 13:09:48 Yes, it's nice to be able to pronounce (bump x) 13:09:50 guess nikodemus is right 13:09:58 madnificent: my comment was about you not even trying to figure out what Inode said (hint: section 2.1.4) 13:10:13 Of course, you'd have to decide if you want to pronounce that as 'bum pee' or 'bump'. 13:10:21 felideon, I agree, but not all do 13:10:40 jdz: no, xach clared that out 13:10:51 Zhivago: one solution is to never speak to other cl hackers aloud 13:10:51 but what about (bumpp) or (bump-p)? :) You can always misuse anything. 13:10:59 *plonk* 13:11:04 Ah, the air is cleaner now. 13:11:12 Xach: Rendering the pronounciation argument moot. :) 13:11:33 *Xach* shudders to remember the first time he met someone who wanted to discuss "vi" 13:12:32 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:12:33 Isn't that pronounced 'six'? 13:12:38 8) 13:12:51 Xach: i'd like to ask why that's bad per se, but i don't really want to get into an argument about it 13:12:54 coming up with good function names is hard (at least for me). Requires time and thinking, and often a better name occurs to you after several attempts and trying to remember wtf you named that function... 13:13:01 madnificent: Why what's bad? 13:13:11 Xach: discussing vi 13:13:18 madnificent: How do you say "vi" out loud? 13:13:20 Lisp being a hacky/rapid development language, IMHO some earlier "given it a name without a second thought" names stuck 13:13:36 Xach: oh, my bad 13:14:01 vee ai 13:14:12 An on-topic example: Guy Steele and other old-timers joked about "the PROG feature" allowing them to write programs 13:14:17 at ILC 2009. 13:14:28 I didn't know the joke and for several days I wondered what "the PROBE feature" meant. 13:15:20 Xach: that must be the ancient form of leet speak 13:16:24 would PROGN be "progue-N" or "proe-guin" 13:17:01 *Xach* is glad we are all dispersed and don't have to worry about that 99% of the time 13:17:44 Why not rhyme it with loggin'? 13:18:17 or noggin 13:18:27 similarly i always wondered how odd it would be to be a developer where english wasn't my native language 13:18:29 but PROG1 is prog'un 13:18:35 That's a much better suggestion. 13:18:39 Xach: it seems when i define a function using '?' at the end, then define a macro for '?' using set-macro-character - calling the function i defined tells me that the function name (without the ?) is undefined... is that normal? 13:18:55 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-126-210.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:18:59 oGMo: I read something about that. They compared it to the Italian music notations 13:19:01 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-161-7.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:19:08 Inode: Hmm, perhaps I gave bad info. Sorry about that, I don't have time to research more. 13:19:09 oGMo: you learn what it means and you get on with things 13:19:13 dlowe: oh interesting thought 13:19:13 oudeis [~oudeis@109-186-103-69.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 13:19:14 yeah 13:19:14 Inode: By the time you get to the ? at the end, it's already read the rest in. 13:19:24 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-161-7.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:32 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-126-210.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:37 Inode: So what you observe is what I'd expect, pretty much. 13:19:38 probably harder with common lisp than other languages. That's a lot of vocabulary to learn 13:19:53 Inode: Think of foo? in your scenario being like foo) 13:20:04 i'm just trying to determine if there's anything beyond a dislike for '?' in common-lisp circles... i always used -p anyway 13:20:12 I use ? 13:20:20 Inode: in that case, you had a valid point 13:20:33 but I don't care enough to pressure people or argue 13:20:35 Inode: though it surprises me 13:20:38 peterhil` [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has joined #lisp 13:21:15 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 13:21:22 Inode: did you specify the value for non-terminating-p optional parameter? 13:21:33 i didn't 13:21:36 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:22:04 so you made it terminating... 13:22:35 zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has joined #lisp 13:22:57 jdz: thanks 13:23:10 Xach: you're welcome :) 13:24:02 -!- rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: rfg] 13:24:09 it does works as Xach when i set that to T 13:24:12 work* 13:24:34 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:25:16 -!- Jasko3 [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:30:05 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 13:31:35 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:31:37 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p54A8E1E6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:31:44 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 13:34:38 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:35:20 -!- McOmghall [~quassel@77.209.141.152] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:35:56 centipedefarmer [~centipede@71-214-226-59.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:04 I once asked "how do I do logging" on some help channel, and someone replied "click on the chainsaw icon", but I could not find any.. I laughed one day later in the subway when I got the joke 13:37:29 What a helpful channel it must have been. 13:40:54 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 13:40:56 silenius [~silenius@p4FFC9F24.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:43:35 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:44:18 pnq [~nick@ACA2048F.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 13:44:53 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 13:47:05 -!- dacoda [~user@gate.cdc.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Quit: Bye] 13:49:41 -!- TeMPO[RAL] [~user@jiscser4.esc.rl.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: /quit] 13:49:48 -!- jamief [~user@harrison.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.0.5] 13:51:05 rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:52:54 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-154-157.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:53:03 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-154-157.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:54:24 charlie [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:25 simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:54:25 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 13:54:25 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 13:54:26 nhonhonho [~nhonhonho@186.214.201.186] has joined #lisp 13:55:02 -!- zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:55:03 gko [gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:16 -!- charlie is now known as tsuru` 13:55:18 zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has joined #lisp 13:56:09 dlowe1 [~dlowe@nat/google/x-pdpfxfycvczxtycj] has joined #lisp 13:57:04 hyko- [~toby@my.unixuni.com] has joined #lisp 13:57:30 levi` [~user@c-174-52-219-147.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:32 Xach_ [~xach@cpe-76-178-243-38.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:57:51 sid3k`` [~user@li298-167.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 13:57:57 -!- Xach_ [~xach@cpe-76-178-243-38.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 13:57:57 Xach_ [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 13:58:00 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:58:04 -!- Xach_ is now known as Xach 13:59:01 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:59:40 tali713` [~tali713@c-75-72-220-197.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:09 -!- scottmaccal [~scottmacc@firewall.portland.lib.me.us] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.20/20110805211839]] 14:00:35 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@213.219.142.186.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:00:38 theBlack1ragon [~dragon@213.219.142.186.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:40 katesmith_ [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 14:00:41 -!- theBlack1ragon is now known as theBlackDragon 14:01:15 kiuma_ [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:01:22 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-143-87.w90-26.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:01:45 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-143-87.w90-26.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:01:46 -!- hyko [~toby@my.unixuni.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:01:47 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:01:47 -!- micro [~micro@www.bway.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:01:47 McOmghall_ [~quassel@77.209.141.152] has joined #lisp 14:01:47 -!- Intensity [8kOhTKhv3s@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Quit: Quit] 14:01:47 -!- tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-220-197.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ZNC - 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I need to get going now, but I'll look into those errors eventually. apparently things got bitrotten... (works fine on chrome and opera) 14:08:06 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.38.98.102] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:08:16 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-vmfqgidzjabjazrf] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:09:36 Intensity [vCaT8wK6a9@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 14:09:41 should it be considered a bug that the order of attributes in CXML's sax:start-element attributes argument is not the same as it is in the XML input? 14:12:27 -!- Flydragon [~fljx@59.108.55.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:12:48 CrEddy [~sursolid@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 14:13:02 Flydragon [~fljx@59.108.55.130] has joined #lisp 14:14:20 heh, s/deefback/feedback/ 14:15:36 antgreen [~user@bas3-barrie18-1279561681.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:15:55 urandom__ [~user@p548A3EBE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:42 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 14:17:56 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:09 cYmen_ [~cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has joined #lisp 14:18:29 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2048F.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:18:44 -!- cYmen [~cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:18:45 -!- zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:21:13 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 14:21:15 -!- McOmghall_ [~quassel@77.209.141.152] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:21:49 -!- taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:23:21 <_8david> aerique: probably not. I agree that if it's exactly reversing the order for no good reason, perhaps that could be changed, since it's probably not what the author of the code had in mind. But applications should not depend attribute order anyway. 14:23:40 _8david: alright, thanks 14:24:47 sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 14:27:40 drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 14:27:51 beach` [~user@ABordeaux-552-1-41-2.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:29:33 xristos_ [~x@ec2-107-20-233-212.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 14:35:30 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:35:50 Ralith_ [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:02 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@109-186-103-69.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:36:05 -!- Patzy_ [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:36:05 -!- kiuma_ [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:36:05 -!- dlowe1 [~dlowe@nat/google/x-pdpfxfycvczxtycj] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:36:05 -!- paul0_ [~paul0@189.101.242.184] has quit [*.net 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seconds] 15:19:42 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:23:42 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-156-139.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:14 curse you, foolish libraries that force simple-strings and base-chars everywhere! 15:24:26 EyesIsMine [~Eyes@unaffiliated/eyesismine] has joined #lisp 15:24:32 *Xach* shakes fist first at csv-parser, which chokes on the first ö it sees 15:25:20 Xach: yeah. We should probably code to (unsigned-byte 8) vectors, but that's a PITA. 15:25:39 Characters are the problem :) 15:25:44 Just stick to strings. 15:26:50 pkhuong: i would be happy with slow ol' generic strings and full characters 15:27:31 Xach: I think _8david has complaints of his own about those ;) 15:27:43 It pretty much precludes unicode if you do that. 15:28:00 ppl who don't default to utf-8 should be shot, then revived and shot again 15:28:14 *maxm* looks at slime default connection encoding 15:28:28 Well, utf-8 requires strings to process, so it's at least in the right direction. :) 15:28:31 I'm happy to trade my current problem of ascii-only for a new unicode problem that doesn't affect me today. 15:29:17 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 15:29:27 if only computers had started off in a region with multiple languages, the whole unicode thing might have been dealt with early on enough that we wouldn't have these issues 15:29:48 They did. 15:29:52 -!- EyesIsMine [~Eyes@unaffiliated/eyesismine] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:30:02 <_8david> maxm: this isn't about on-the-wire or on-disk encoding, it's about internal encoding of strings in memory. CL is certainly not ideal there, but please don't shoot the implementors just because the spec predates unicode and makes it hard to do the right thing. :-) 15:30:05 Look to i/o devices, instead. 15:30:10 Zhivago: well, multiple languages using substantially different charsets 15:30:55 <_8david> Xach: I have a lot of sympathy for authors depending on simple-strings 15:31:06 <_8david> base-chars -- not so much. 15:31:41 EyesIsMine [~Eyes@unaffiliated/eyesismine] has joined #lisp 15:31:54 A lot of it has to do English having a very degenerate alphabet that makes for trivial composition. 15:32:09 really it's all my fault (again) -- if only I hadn't decided to separate base-char and character 15:32:26 That helped a lot with early display and representation technology, and these things have network effects. 15:33:09 The Japanese put a lot of effort into advanced displays, but it still took time to make them affordable and useful. 15:34:34 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.34] has joined #lisp 15:36:11 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:37:11 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:37:15 -!- beach` is now known as beach 15:37:54 -!- misoczki [~misoczki@2001:660:3013:3:222:19ff:fe24:d155] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:39:01 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 15:39:21 -!- algal [~anonymous@host-92-26-11-193.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: algal] 15:39:28 -!- pjb is now known as Guest34532 15:42:44 -!- attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@catv-80-98-25-142.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:44:28 -!- Guest34532 is now known as pjb 15:49:43 paul0 [~paul0@187.112.70.70] has joined #lisp 15:50:42 kleppari_ [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 15:53:29 -!- markskil` [~user@host217-43-218-6.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:54:25 manuel_ [~manuel_@xdsl-78-34-133-149.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:56:11 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.165.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:57:41 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.165.77] has joined #lisp 15:57:50 Xach: thanks for the thought, cl-csv now has a test about reading and writing utf-8 15:59:11 -!- Astrology [~chris@122.237.29.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:01:54 Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-16-175.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:13 jdz [~jdz@host5-105-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:02:18 -!- kleppari_ [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:04:36 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:42 Vivitron [~user@pool-71-174-61-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:32 -!- khaliG [~khali@203.171.126.201.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:05:50 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has joined #lisp 16:07:15 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has quit [Client Quit] 16:07:43 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.165.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:12:18 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:19:23 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@183.106.96.61] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:20:40 SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@VEROXITY.ipcolo1.SanFrancisco1.Level3.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:57 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.153.55] has joined #lisp 16:23:27 setmeaway [~setmeaway@183.106.96.61] has joined #lisp 16:23:28 Acrowire [~Acrobat@76.Red-88-1-115.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:39 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.153.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:28:16 ngz [~user@171.203.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:18 -!- tfb [~tfb@80.238.0.145] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 16:31:30 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.34] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 16:31:43 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.34] has joined #lisp 16:32:48 Harag [~Harag@dsl-242-247-181.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:36:28 leo2007 [~leo@58.22.113.138] has joined #lisp 16:37:58 -!- kwertii [~kwertii@ResNet-33-19.resnet.ucsb.edu] has quit [Quit: kwertii] 16:38:05 -!- Hunden [~Hunden@e180102029.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:39:38 xan_ [~xan@195.70.20.106] has joined #lisp 16:41:04 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 16:41:31 -!- katesmith_ is now known as katesmith 16:42:27 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@71-214-226-59.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:42:34 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:42:43 are there tools in other lisps similar to acl's excl::get-references? i find this very useful 16:43:32 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 16:43:37 acelent: what does excl::get-references do? 16:43:44 sbcl has an xref facility 16:43:48 if it's some kind of cross-referencing facility, yes 16:44:16 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:45:06 katesmith [~katesmith@97-89-229-3.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 16:45:06 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@97-89-229-3.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 16:45:06 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 16:45:59 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:47:02 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Client Quit] 16:47:33 Krystof: it returns all objects that reference the given one 16:47:43 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 16:49:04 this is useful to know what is referencing an object we expected to be garbage collected 16:49:09 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:52:00 dumb question, but if you expect an object to be GCd, how do you have a reference to it in order to inspect it? 16:52:30 A weak reference? 16:52:32 Phoodus: you print the refs before you drop the last known ref (: 16:54:29 Phoodus: if the object should be GCd but was not, the object is actually being referenced; on some ocasions, this is a bug, i.e. not cleaning another object's slot value or not removing from a list, etc. 16:54:57 so, this is useful to debug 16:55:14 acelent: I mean in your case, how do you say "show the xrefs for this object" for an object you expect to be GCd and thus have no (known) handle to? 16:55:42 -!- lnostdal [~Lars@ti0030a380-dhcp2618.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:56:31 (yeah, weak refs or raw printed identity pointers of some sort might work) 16:56:40 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:56:43 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 16:56:45 Phoodus: oh, acl also has excl::get-objects. usually, i tell it to return all `standard-instance's (see excl:print-type-counts) and i fetch what i suspect should have been GC'd 16:57:07 fetch => pick 16:57:10 ah, ok 16:57:29 I would have liked to have that back when debugging memory leaks in mcclim using sbcl 16:57:53 I've used sbcl's "get all objects" function before for such purposes, too 16:58:00 now that I think about it 16:58:07 but there's "only" the heap walker which is better than nothing, but isn't as useful as get-references sounds (: 16:58:32 -!- spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Quit: spacefrogg] 17:00:58 *Fade* nominates acelent to write sb-ext:get-references 17:01:05 and friends 17:01:27 -!- manuel_ [~manuel_@xdsl-78-34-133-149.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: manuel_] 17:03:35 -!- jdz [~jdz@host5-105-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:04:11 -!- gko [gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:07:11 there's map-allocated-objects in sbcl 17:07:40 Fade: :) "please take a seat while waiting" (i feel flattered, though) 17:08:36 Amyn [~abennama@cac94-2-87-91-21-215.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 17:10:07 Krystof: is there something that can walk all of an object's (internal) fields? much like what the GC does to find out if an object is still referenced? 17:10:19 -!- Joreji [~thomas@83-060.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:11:09 Joreji [~thomas@83-060.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:14:59 lnostdal [~Lars@ti0030a380-dhcp2618.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 17:15:43 -!- zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:18:31 anyone if there's information out there on using LISP for GIS work? 17:19:36 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:19:52 -!- leo2007 [~leo@58.22.113.138] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 17:20:26 Seems like there's at least some stuff out there: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=lisp+gis 17:20:54 -!- sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 17:21:28 sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 17:21:28 Eataix [~Eataix@CPE-58-169-8-109.lns2.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 17:21:53 And digging into that some more: http://surejourney.com/software/cl-geo/ http://surejourney.com/software/cl-wkb/ 17:24:00 zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has joined #lisp 17:24:10 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-126-210.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:25:18 -!- Flydragon [~fljx@59.108.55.130] has quit [] 17:27:55 acelent: SLIME has an object-walker which digs into some of the hidden data 17:29:14 ah, they call it an inspector. C-c I 17:30:08 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-161-7.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:30:35 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-161-7.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:56 slime authors missed the chance to call their inspector slime-clouseaue 17:34:11 it's not "slime authors", it's "slime guy" now 17:34:23 Phoodus: that might be a good start, thanks 17:34:27 the eel? 17:34:39 some funny wording from yesterday 17:35:12 actually, look who it was from: man this is a very common problem, slime guy should just make utf8 default 17:35:25 ok you caught me 17:39:14 on the lisp note /me is still adding little bells & whistles to his charting app.. Amazingly how many little details have to be taken care of. I closed 20 or so TODO items in last few days, yet it does not look much different 17:40:15 -!- dRbiG [p@bofh.edu.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:40:40 how would you define a homogeneous list with deftype? 17:41:37 does not typep allow you to define arbitrary predicates? or is SBCL extension 17:41:46 drdo: satisfies. 17:42:18 pkhuong: oh yes 17:42:23 thank you 17:42:26 milanj [~milanj_@93-86-22-71.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 17:42:55 dRbiG [p@bofh.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 17:43:29 drdo: in some lisps, #1=(or null (cons #1#)), but you're better off with satisfies because the other lisps blow the stack with this one 17:44:21 yes i initially tried the obvious `(or null (cons ,type (list-of ,type))) 17:44:23 #1# could be the actual deftype name, i guess 17:44:25 stack blows 17:45:26 -!- Eataix [~Eataix@CPE-58-169-8-109.lns2.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] 17:45:31 jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-88.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:46:32 Xach: do you maintain a license for http://www.xach.com/lisp/jpeg-dimensions.lisp ? 17:49:13 I don't. 17:49:45 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.110.219.244] has joined #lisp 17:49:58 So if i package it up in a repo just credit it to you and the URL in the file header? 17:52:58 pkhuong: satifies requires a symbol, how do i pass the type? 17:53:32 drdo: by creating a function per type 17:53:39 -_- 17:55:59 drdo: if you seriously need a typechecked homogenous list, (defstruct foo-list (foo (default-foo) :type foo) (next nil :type (or null foo-list))) 17:56:23 or a struct + vector + accessors that check the type 17:57:00 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has joined #lisp 17:57:09 I don't seriously need one, i just like to specify the types 17:57:40 mon_key: I don't know. I don't think so. 17:59:48 drdo: note also that specifying a satisfies-type for a list is liable to make things dog slow: walking the entire list each time it wants to check the type 18:00:24 Astrology [~chris@122.237.29.165] has joined #lisp 18:00:29 nikodemus: I would be fine with that for this particular thing 18:00:41 using a defstruct gets you both performance and safety -- at the cost of roughly doubled storage requirements 18:04:43 ost``` [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 18:04:44 -!- ost`` [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:14:45 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.110.219.244] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:14:55 -!- antgreen [~user@bas3-barrie18-1279561681.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:19:34 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 18:20:30 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181056239.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:24:37 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-157-100.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 18:25:01 -!- Acrowire [~Acrobat@76.Red-88-1-115.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 18:29:24 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:30:27 oconnore [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:12 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 18:38:05 lanthan [~ze@p54B7D0B6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:53 -!- lanthan [~ze@p54B7D0B6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 18:40:09 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-161-7.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:40:45 lanthan [~ze@p54B7D0B6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:50 -!- silenius [~silenius@p4FFC9F24.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:46:30 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:55:43 pnq [~nick@ACA218F4.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 18:56:43 austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:07 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 18:58:50 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:00:08 TeMPOraL [~user@cpc12-oxfd18-2-0-cust64.4-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:02:09 Is it safe to wrap sb-concurrency:receive-message with sb-ext:with-timeout in order to implement a timeout on that blocking call? 19:02:10 -!- ignas [~ignas@212.180.202.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:02:26 I understand very little about interrupts. 19:02:39 lony [~lony@hoas-fe3ddd00-245.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 19:03:08 austinh: I'm not sure, but I bet nikodemus's pledged work will make the situation much safer! 19:04:41 -!- nhonhonho [~nhonhonho@186.214.201.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:05:49 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 19:07:19 Oh, I see his first goal is to add timeout args to the blocking functions. That should solve my problem! 19:07:31 H4ns_ [57bd6e79@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.189.110.121] has joined #lisp 19:07:39 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:09:35 nhonhonho [~nhonhonho@201.86.18.96.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 19:10:45 "safer" is probably not the right word. more something, though. 19:11:58 -!- H4ns_ [57bd6e79@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.189.110.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:18:11 slash_ [~unknown@p54A8E1E6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:07 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has left #lisp 19:20:17 Perhaps the word is "well-defined" ;) 19:20:19 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 19:21:07 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-161-7.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:55 -!- Joreji [~thomas@83-060.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:22:21 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:26:55 McOmghall [~quassel@77.209.66.48] has joined #lisp 19:33:44 To get basic equivalent of CL:PEEK-CHAR for a "binary stream" e.g. one of type (unsigned-byte 8) is it 19:33:44 reasonable to CL:READ-BYTE and then decrement the streams file-position by 1? 19:34:10 no 19:34:14 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.34] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:34:18 ISF_ [~ivan@143.106.196.34] has joined #lisp 19:34:52 -!- ISF_ [~ivan@143.106.196.34] has quit [Client Quit] 19:34:56 b/c of buffering or maybe b/c the string is multidirectional? 19:35:18 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.34] has joined #lisp 19:38:03 jweiss_ [~user@209.132.181.86] has joined #lisp 19:38:48 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 19:39:36 dekuderp [~dekuderp@thingy.cs.umass.edu] has joined #lisp 19:41:30 -!- jweiss [~user@nat/redhat/x-rvimevtwkyiyshmo] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:41:35 jweiss__ [~user@nat/redhat/x-wcefmlffktqdyirl] has joined #lisp 19:43:53 -!- jweiss_ [~user@209.132.181.86] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:45:49 -!- oconnore [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:47:20 oconnore [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:21 oconnore1 [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:23 -!- McOmghall [~quassel@77.209.66.48] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:49:57 McOmghall [~quassel@77.209.66.48] has joined #lisp 19:50:30 mon_key: I don't know what fe[nl]ix has in mind, but some of the binary streams i use are not associated with a file. 19:50:46 Y 19:51:33 Thanks! I think is prob. what fe[nl]ix has in mind or at least i just realized that it could be a problem if the stream is not of type FILE-STREAM 19:51:49 -!- oconnore [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:53:13 FWIW I just wanna test EOF without actually reading the byte and am not sure if comparing FILE-POSITION with FILE-LENGTH is the right thing }; 19:54:51 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:55:29 Why do you want to do that? 19:56:11 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-147.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:56:57 mon_key: you can't do that 19:57:19 EOF is a transitory condition not a permanent state 19:59:56 -!- sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:00:38 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:00:59 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-88.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:01:05 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:03:04 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:03:22 hi 20:03:23 Xach: I was thinking of pumping data read from a file to an sb-ext:run-program input stream with an exiftool process with its -@ ARGFILE as "-" and -stay_open 1 but the whole might be way too convoluted. In any event, the presumption is I would need to check EOF before pumping the next series of args to exiftool 20:03:32 With CFFI, how do you deal with const char* arguments to C safely? 20:03:43 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:04:19 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.86.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:04:59 mon_key: Why? 20:05:10 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA218F4.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:05:47 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.34] has joined #lisp 20:08:27 I was hoping to avoid having to continually re-instantiate a new exiftool process thousands of times... 20:08:44 mon_key: Why does that involve a scheme for avoiding hitting EOF? 20:10:59 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:12:22 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has joined #lisp 20:13:33 Xach: Likely there is no good reason. :) 20:13:51 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-123-53.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:51 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-123-53.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:13:51 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 20:14:40 mon_key: if you are instantiating on unix... simply do it. It's why process creation was made fastpath on *nix 20:16:00 *Xach* spawns imagemagick for most images on wigflip.com 20:16:43 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 20:16:44 p_l|backup: Yes. I guess i'm highly yprone to premature screwball-optimization 20:17:13 mon_key: unless you're running under SELinux (and possibly even then), you'll pay only very minor cost, since exiftool will be already loaded into memory 20:17:19 serichsen [~user@hmbg-4d06dcd4.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:26 Good evening! 20:18:46 p_l|backup: the SELinux is enabled here thought it never occurred that there might be some impact there 20:20:33 I don't think it should. It's label based, so it shouldn't have too long resolving path 20:21:27 OK. So I will stop worrying and learn to love the bomb. 20:21:55 Xach: fe[nl]ix: p_l|backup: Thanks for your help and insight! 20:22:04 Bike: what do you mean ? 20:22:48 Bike: I deal with them like normal pointer to char 20:23:06 that is, a pointer to ASCIIZ string 20:24:17 Well, I'm getting SIGSEGVs and memory invariants violations in GC. I'm guessing that I'm doing something wrong with keeping things allocated. 20:24:58 gko [gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:59 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:25:46 -!- reb`` [~user@nat/google/x-lhpybcvjykpeghzf] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:26:11 ouch 20:27:00 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:27:50 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@2620:0:2820:b03:214:22ff:fe45:5204] has quit [Quit: Some days you're the pigeon, some days the statue...] 20:28:01 lisppaste? 20:28:10 scottmaccal [~scottmacc@pool-71-173-86-89.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:16 pnq [~nick@172.129.101.46] has joined #lisp 20:32:50 seangrove [~user@c-24-6-209-98.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:16 -!- oconnore1 [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:35:18 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:36:22 emacs dies too much 20:36:48 What platform? I can't remember Emacs dying any time recently. 20:37:17 mine is at least .. amd64 linux 20:37:37 may have a poor version? i've had to restart it a few times this week 20:37:53 cl-user [~user@HSI-KBW-109-192-059-240.hsi6.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 20:41:28 vervic [~vervic@046-220-122-097.dyn.orange.at] has joined #lisp 20:44:19 Odd. My home machine is Debian on AMD64. It's stable. Hm. 20:47:34 hrm 20:47:44 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 20:47:56 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-161-7.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:48:35 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-161-7.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:15 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.183.3] has joined #lisp 20:49:53 -!- gko [gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [] 20:50:52 -!- McOmghall [~quassel@77.209.66.48] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:51:13 -!- cl-user [~user@HSI-KBW-109-192-059-240.hsi6.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has left #lisp 20:55:55 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has joined #lisp 20:56:10 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-86-22-71.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:57:17 -!- scottmaccal [~scottmacc@pool-71-173-86-89.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:57:45 -!- dlowe1 [~dlowe@nat/google/x-pdpfxfycvczxtycj] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:58:57 Joreji [~thomas@64-073.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:59:44 scottmaccal [~scottmacc@pool-71-173-86-89.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:47 -!- vervic [~vervic@046-220-122-097.dyn.orange.at] has left #lisp 21:03:41 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.183.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:09:56 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:10:11 p_l|backup: http://paste.lisp.org/display/124292 21:12:30 -!- scottmaccal [~scottmacc@pool-71-173-86-89.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.20/20110805211839]] 21:12:30 looks to me like Jack is confused about buffers, or you mistakenly let a buffer get freed 21:12:47 I think schmx tried to write Jack bindings at one point and gave up. 21:12:50 something about callbacks? 21:13:18 might be worth grilling him for deets. 21:14:05 Huh, would just getting a pointer to the buffers in a Lisp function free them? 21:17:25 the paste is missing how you allocate the buffers 21:19:01 I don't, they're pointers passed by jackd. 21:19:43 jack-port-get-buffer is void* jack_port_get_buffer(jack_port_t*, jack_nframes_t*). 21:20:32 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-157-100.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:21:15 hmm... Could you trace your callback function? or maybe you could try running it under gdb? I believe there are some instructions on how to set gdb to run SBCL. 21:21:48 I'll see what I can do... 21:22:04 The really weird thing is that the callback is still going despite that lisp is sitting in ldb. 21:22:09 oconnore [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:30 did you start it from slime? It could be running in different thread 21:25:49 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-155-3.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 21:26:13 Yes... oh, wait, the process just stopped along with the callback. 21:26:25 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:27:00 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 21:29:20 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:30:32 -!- dcrawford [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:33:19 kwertii [~kwertii@ResNet-33-19.resnet.ucsb.edu] has joined #lisp 21:44:49 -!- frodef [~frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:50:14 -!- rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: rfg] 21:52:26 ignas [~ignas@user-46-112-220-62.play-internet.pl] has joined #lisp 21:55:34 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p54A8E1E6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:56:41 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:57:08 -!- serichsen [~user@hmbg-4d06dcd4.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Good night!] 21:57:51 cheier [~amedueces@c-76-107-19-58.hsd1.ms.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:13 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:00:36 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:02:24 -!- bfein [~bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Adios] 22:05:49 -!- cYmen_ is now known as cYmen 22:10:22 rlazo [~user@gentoo/contributor/rlazo] has joined #lisp 22:13:40 -!- ocharles [u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-knhenqvdpphwqnzm] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:14:32 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-155-3.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:14:34 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-131-242.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:15:30 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-131-242.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:16:48 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 22:17:11 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-154-157.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:17:35 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-154-157.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:18:41 mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:18:41 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:18:41 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 22:21:20 -!- oconnore [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:22:07 ost```` [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 22:22:07 -!- ost``` [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:24:43 hmm isnt nframes a pointer in (jack-get-buffer) 22:24:52 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:25:13 and you passing it a whatever nframes in your callback is, is that a pointer also? 22:25:40 nframes is just a uint32 22:26:04 jack-port-get-buffer is void* 22:26:05 jack_port_get_buffer(jack_port_t*, jack_nframes_t*). 22:26:20 Oh, hm. 22:26:29 above prototype says 2nd param should be pointer to jack_nframes_t *, not integer 22:27:11 http://jackaudio.org/files/docs/html/group__PortFunctions.html#ga209880b64774dd039c703ea8e3b9ca63 No, I just miswrote it. Dang, that would have been it. 22:27:21 jasom [~aidenn@ip98-182-25-247.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:54 -!- dRbiG [p@bofh.edu.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:29:07 you probably want something like: (cffi:with-foreign-object (nframes-in :int 1) (cffi:with-foreign-object (nframes-out :int 1) (jack-port-get-buffer *handle* nframes-in) (jack-get-buffer *handle* nframes-out))) 22:29:32 above will allocate two 1 int arrays on the stackthat will pass the address of the array (like in C) 22:29:53 No, I miswrote the prototype, the second argument isn't a pointer. 22:30:15 but in fact I think you can (defcfun) to tell it it accepts pointers to integers, and cffi will do that automatically 22:30:19 ah 22:30:20 ok 22:30:29 then something is screwwy 22:30:58 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:31:36 actually thats the thing 22:31:43 Anyone know if there is a generic "buffered stream" library? That is, I often solve the meta-problem "I want to send unsigned-bytes out to X" where X is something that it is inefficient to send one byte at a time. It really seems there ought to be a library that does all the buffering and such and all I have to implement is "send a chunk of data over X" 22:31:49 check jackd docs, it probably calls your callback from its own thread 22:32:02 the key is is that your main thread is in ldb, yet your callback tsill called 22:32:06 jasom: standard stream classes? 22:32:24 do you bind *jack-input* with (let) by any chance? 22:32:42 Defvar. 22:32:45 p_l|backup: well it's not a lot of code on top of gray streams, but I feel like I've written it like 3 times now and that's too many 22:32:56 hmm then its supposed to be shared between threads 22:33:11 jasom: didn't the standard stuff suffice? 22:33:21 but anyway if a foregn library starts its own thread, and then calls into lisp, I think this will confuse SBCL greatly 22:33:30 jasom: also, flexi-streams or something like that had bivalent streams, useful 22:34:16 I do think that jackd runs functions in its own thread(s). But why would that confuse SBCL? (I haven't done anything like this before, so I'm kind of ignorant...) 22:34:57 coz SBCL has to start its own thread, it uses thread local storage, (cons) actually allocates from thread local storage in 2k chunks I think 22:34:59 p_l|backup: yeah, flexi-streams is useful, but I don't think it does what I want. Neither does gray streams as far as I can tell. If e.g. someone calls "write-byte" then I have to implement a write-byte that saves to a buffer, and then a force-output that outputs to whatever it is that actually needs the output 22:38:00 p_l|backup: I was thinking of a library where all I have to do is implement a single function that writes/reads a large chunk of data, and it does all the rest under the hood. If something doesn't exist, I'll take one of my special-case versions and make it nice and generic and put it up somewhere, but if there is already something a bit more polished, I figured I could use that instead 22:41:27 -!- Ralith_ is now known as Ralith 22:45:56 srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has joined #lisp 22:45:59 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-161-7.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:46:24 -!- zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:53:57 hmm recompiling my app with (debug 1) (safety 1) (speed 3) I'm getting failed aver: (null current), should I look at something in the stack before restarting? 22:56:02 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-154-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:20 ChibaPet [~mason@c-68-58-147-105.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:54 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-161-7.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:42 -!- xan_ [~xan@195.70.20.106] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:01:48 seems to be fine after restart 23:02:33 simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:02:33 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 23:02:33 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 23:04:40 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 23:06:41 -!- pnq [~nick@172.129.101.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:07:25 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-25-142.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 23:07:26 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-25-142.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 23:07:26 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 23:12:23 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.38.98.102] has joined #lisp 23:13:03 nicdev [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:15:24 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:15:29 -!- tsuru` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:15:43 -!- srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has quit [Quit: quitting] 23:15:54 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 23:16:47 -!- parabolize [~paraboliz@203.83.50.36] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:18:30 hm, that's odd: my CCL install doesn't seem able to load usocket 23:19:11 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:20:07 anyone have an idea what might be wrong? 23:20:38 loading from quicklisp, fails in ccl-send.lisp with "value EINTR is not of the expected type SYMBOL." 23:21:51 oh wait, nevermind, I see the problem 23:22:00 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@c-68-58-147-105.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 23:22:23 parabolize [~paraboliz@203.83.50.36] has joined #lisp 23:25:57 -!- cheier [~amedueces@c-76-107-19-58.hsd1.ms.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:26:37 man it takes slime 1-2 minutes to fontify compilation buffer after compiling my project with (speed 3) 23:26:39 H4ns` [~user@p4FFC94AF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:26:52 95k lines 23:29:47 -!- H4ns [~user@p4FFC95E4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:31:00 -!- nicdev [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:31:04 nicdev [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:32:39 Mococa [~Mococa@187.114.162.148] has joined #lisp 23:34:31 Deathaholic [~Mococa@187.114.162.148] has joined #lisp 23:34:41 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:35:27 -!- Joreji [~thomas@64-073.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:38:04 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.114.162.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:42:35 chp [~chp@ool-18b83194.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:04 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483C987.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:44:03 Joreji [~thomas@64-073.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 23:46:49 -!- ignas [~ignas@user-46-112-220-62.play-internet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:48:14 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 23:48:29 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-183-30.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:50:29 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving]