00:01:36 -!- benny [~benny@i577A8239.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:01:44 xan__ [~xan@pD953A6B9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:52 dRbiG [p@bofh.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 00:02:46 benny [~benny@i577A708B.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 00:05:15 -!- xan_ [~xan@pD953A46C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:06:32 hussaibi_ [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #lisp 00:07:44 -!- hussaibi__ [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:08:04 hussaibi__ [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #lisp 00:08:10 -!- hussaibi [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:08:54 -!- hypercube32 [~hypercube@231.125.189.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:09:45 Jubb [~ghost@68.34.79.50] has joined #lisp 00:13:54 does anyone know of a good emacs typing tutor? im reading about gtypist at the moment but im not sure its what i want... 00:14:53 open "War and Peace", type it all 00:17:49 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:19:58 pixpop [~neil@adsl-76-208-134-44.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:20:32 another worth while gnu project eh 00:20:50 write a emacs lisp typing tutor 00:20:57 learn to type in emacs 00:22:17 <_3b> there is one on emacswiki 00:22:40 Eataix [~Eataix@130.56.85.207] has joined #lisp 00:24:41 -!- xan__ [~xan@pD953A6B9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:26:03 routebee: should be pretty easy if you don't get too crazy. Write a function that spits out a line of text in the buffer and positions the cursor under it. Then let the user type the same line and check for errors and report the speed. 00:26:07 It would be rather easy to write a typing tutor in emacs. Something that would display a text in one buffer/window, and let you type in another, hihlighting any mistake, and counting some statistics. 00:26:31 Or even indeed, in the same buffer. 00:27:04 <_3b> or the minibuffer (which is what another one on emacswiki does) 00:27:27 But Since I assume you're authorized all emacs commands, I'd do it in a separate buffer, so that if you prefer to type all the vowels first, and add the consonants later, you may do so, as long as the final result is correct and obtained faster. 00:27:47 parabolize [~paraboliz@203.83.50.36] has joined #lisp 00:30:16 I'd like to see one that displays some text (any file) dimmed, and it lights up as you type the correct characters over it. 00:30:20 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.14.212] has joined #lisp 00:31:07 -!- pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:31:32 pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 00:32:28 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:34:11 -!- Eataix [~Eataix@130.56.85.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:35:08 you would need instructions on what fingers you should be using for which keys too 00:35:25 to start off with anyway 00:35:30 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-101-35.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:38:52 _3b: you talking about typing-of-emacs 00:40:08 <_3b> that was one of them, yes 00:40:34 *_3b* doesn't remember the other 00:40:41 -!- pixpop [~neil@adsl-76-208-134-44.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: pixpop] 00:40:45 emacs commands are strongly typed. 00:42:35 thats the only one i can find on the wiki and it doesnt look like what im after, guess i'll have to get something in a GUI 00:44:19 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:51:19 chu [~mathew.ba@130.56.91.28] has joined #lisp 00:53:20 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@130.56.91.28] has quit [Client Quit] 00:53:36 im looking at typing of the dead 00:53:52 i think i'll have to buy a copy and wine it up 00:55:15 El_Diablo [~Aaron@adsl-68-88-193-53.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:33 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@nat/google/x-ovzhdtkztocaczjv] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 00:57:14 ISF [~ivan@187.106.54.41] has joined #lisp 00:59:46 kpreid [~kpreid@nat/google/x-btlnbcsrllwlbuik] has joined #lisp 01:03:39 anyone else ever notice that these return differently: 01:03:40 (cl-fad:list-directory ".") (osicat:list-directory ".") (cl-fad:list-directory "..") (osicat:list-directory "..") 01:04:12 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:04:26 i wouldn't think that osicat uses *d-p-d* 01:05:02 pretty sure its the reliance on osicat:with-directory-iterator 01:08:31 -!- nicdev_ [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: nicdev_] 01:09:56 Evanescence [~chris@122.237.30.173] has joined #lisp 01:14:31 stassats: osicat:call-with-directory-iterator binds *d-p-d* and sets cwd in the protected form of its unwind-protect... 01:15:14 osicat:list-directory doesn't merge with *d-p-d*, that's the only difference i see 01:17:31 the local var pathspec was allready merged with *d-p-d* 01:18:14 nm no it wasn't 01:20:31 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 01:20:52 but osicat::call-with-directory-iterator does merge its dir var with *d-p-d* via osicat:absolute-pathname 01:21:21 stassats: sorry! I was busy earlier. Trying to teach a few folks how to program and I'm using sbcl and emacs as their first programming language. 01:21:44 I'll test shortly, gotta recompile and all that fun stuff on a netbook. 01:22:33 so, the merget with (osicat:absolute-pathname #P".") yields the equivalent of (merge-pathnames "." *default-pathname-defaults*) 01:24:18 and so for the duration of #'one-iter *d-p-d* gets dynamically funky bound 01:27:49 -!- SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@VEROXITY.ipcolo1.SanFrancisco1.Level3.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:31:38 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:52 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 01:32:27 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-87-235.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:32:59 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:33:44 -!- corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 01:36:08 -!- 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[~fisxoj@cpe-74-67-199-254.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:50:31 -!- yroeht_ [yroeht@server5.tonbnc.fr] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:51:54 leo2007 [~leo@124.72.117.9] has joined #lisp 03:54:01 -!- dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:01:30 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-oijugwfwapmckzly] has joined #lisp 04:05:05 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:26 __class__ [~class@99-105-57-153.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:20 Deathaholic [~Mococa@189.59.212.55] has joined #lisp 04:27:51 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.59.212.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:32:02 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ldnowqcvwjkupkgu] has joined #lisp 04:36:06 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 04:53:37 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:53:42 kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-101-35.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 04:57:23 hussaibi [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #lisp 04:57:24 hussaibi_ [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #lisp 04:58:22 hussaibi__ [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #lisp 04:59:16 Could ECL be used for an iPhone/ios App store project without violating its license? 05:02:05 -!- hussaibi [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:02:10 -!- hussaibi_ [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:02:24 -!- Deathaholic [~Mococa@189.59.212.55] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:02:55 ECL is LGPL, does the apple store usage generally go against it? 05:03:00 hussaibi [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #lisp 05:04:50 as for the LGPL, it'd be fine LGPL libraries are dynamically linked and you provide the source to any changes you had to make to them 05:05:06 s/fine LGPL/fine if LGPL/ 05:05:12 I think the iPhone can't do dynamically linked libs 05:05:40 that might be a problem then, unless you also provide the source to your application 05:05:42 I remember thinking it was basically a "no an do" a while back ;but can't recall why I thought that. 05:06:23 disclaimer: I'm now lawyer :) 05:06:29 s/now/NO/ 05:06:30 :) 05:07:38 -!- pcavs [~paul@c-65-96-169-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:08:41 -!- dlind [~david@164.4.17.10] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:10:04 -!- eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:10:11 -!- hussaibi__ [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:10:27 -!- hussaibi [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:16:18 hakkum [~hakkum@c-67-181-176-186.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:19:16 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 05:21:18 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:21:35 -!- pearle 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[~kennyd@93-141-110-93.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 06:10:34 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-62-72-9.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:14:32 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 06:14:46 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:15:35 flip214 [~marek@86.59.100.100] has joined #lisp 06:15:35 -!- flip214 [~marek@86.59.100.100] has quit [Changing host] 06:15:35 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 06:18:39 Organometallica [~Jeremy@c-98-212-148-123.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:20:12 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:21:11 -!- realitygrill_ [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:32:09 zenbalrog_ [~chatzilla@adsl-98-70-123-157.tys.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 06:34:31 -!- zenbalrog [~chatzilla@adsl-98-86-17-2.tys.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:34:35 -!- zenbalrog_ is now known as zenbalrog 06:35:52 theBlackDragon [~user@212.123.24.66] has joined #lisp 06:37:31 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 06:40:09 -!- markskil1eck [~mark@host86-136-166-192.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:40:10 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA25492.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:41:51 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-184-105.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:42:08 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:42:30 good morning 06:43:15 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:43:40 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:43:53 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 06:44:36 jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-179.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:47:21 -!- El_Diablo [~Aaron@adsl-68-88-193-53.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:57:47 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-179.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:58:08 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 07:00:36 holy smokes, $6k achieved! Way to go nikodemus! 07:02:11 -!- cpc26`` [cpc26@pilot.trilug.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:03:35 cpc26 [cpc26@pilot.trilug.org] has joined #lisp 07:08:24 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-110-93.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:11:07 kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-110-93.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 07:13:14 -!- hakkum [~hakkum@c-67-181-176-186.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:13:20 alama [~jessealam@86.93.35.187] has joined #lisp 07:13:24 slyrus: and that's in less than two days. though i guess the rush is over now 07:13:32 aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:15:33 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:17:22 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 07:17:41 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.36.13] has joined #lisp 07:19:07 xan_ [~xan@pD953A6B9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:08 -!- parabolize [~paraboliz@203.83.50.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:20:26 Kryztof [~user@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 07:22:25 ehu` [~ehuels@109.33.133.51] has joined #lisp 07:24:10 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.36.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:26:16 -!- xan_ [~xan@pD953A6B9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:26:44 -!- hussaibi [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:27:02 -!- muddyferret_ [~muddyferr@88.Red-80-26-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: muddyferret_] 07:27:11 muddyferret [~muddyferr@149.Red-83-45-70.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:27:15 -!- mbenkn [~mbenkn@41.251.40.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:27:37 -!- muddyferret [~muddyferr@149.Red-83-45-70.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:27:55 muddyferret [~muddyferr@89.Red-83-36-62.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:28:03 -!- hussaibi_ [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:29:23 -!- muddyferret [~muddyferr@89.Red-83-36-62.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:29:23 muddyferret_ [~muddyferr@88.Red-80-26-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:30:49 parabolize [~paraboliz@203.83.50.36] has joined #lisp 07:32:41 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.119.222] has joined #lisp 07:36:59 -!- muddyferret_ [~muddyferr@88.Red-80-26-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: muddyferret_] 07:38:09 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:38:36 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-6-95.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:38:41 -!- ehu` [~ehuels@109.33.133.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:39:14 good morning 07:39:31 nikodemus: congratulations on your new job! 07:39:46 indeed! 07:40:16 6k broken! \o/ 07:40:27 Congrats. 07:40:28 muddyferret [~muddyferr@149.Red-83-45-70.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:40:51 -!- muddyferret [~muddyferr@149.Red-83-45-70.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:42:11 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:42:17 Odditus [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 07:42:27 -!- Odditus is now known as Oddity 07:44:21 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-oijugwfwapmckzly] has left #lisp 07:51:27 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:51:41 hello, can anyone recommend a interactive plotting library in lisp? 07:52:16 nikodemus: just read your blog post. that's fantastic! congrats 07:52:22 keep up the great work on sbcl 07:52:34 thank you 07:52:58 -!- EyesIsMine [~eyes@unaffiliated/eyesismine] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:54:52 quackv2: Does vecto count? 07:55:24 dunno, ill take a look 07:55:30 trigen_ [c1aca602@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.172.166.2] has joined #lisp 07:56:15 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.119.222] has joined #lisp 07:56:45 EyesIsMine [~eyes@unaffiliated/eyesismine] has joined #lisp 07:56:46 this looks interesitng, but not what i had in mind. i guess something like plplot? but i don't know if plplot is good or not 07:57:10 quackv2: what kind of plotting do you want to do? 07:57:34 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-33-112.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:57:34 -!- insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-33-112.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Changing host] 07:57:34 insomnia1alt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 07:57:39 just graphs, and then at some point display images 07:57:53 line graphs, histograms and such 07:57:59 lush looked interestinig 07:58:07 tho dunno if its actively maintained 07:59:45 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.119.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:00:43 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:00:43 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 08:03:12 m__h__ [~m@87-205-206-116.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #lisp 08:03:20 hello 08:03:59 -!- tarmil|away is now known as tarmil 08:06:28 quackv2: I've plotted graphs through cl-2d in the past. It did what I needed at the time, but I don't know if you'll have uses which don't fit in it. Vecto is a nice drawing library on top of which you could build a graph library. 08:06:34 hello m__h__ 08:08:56 quackv2: take a look at r-project ... not exactly lisp, but many things readily available 08:12:36 R is so a Lisp 08:12:58 What isn't, these days? :) 08:13:33 well, at least not a _common_ Lisp as standardized 08:14:57 it's got conditions and restarts -- pretty close 08:18:53 Kryztof: can you adjust the reader? 08:20:24 c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-sopzreguclpghkki] has joined #lisp 08:25:58 xan_ [~xan@client195-220.wlan.hu-berlin.de] has joined #lisp 08:27:25 You can do better than that 08:27:31 ( and { are actually functions 08:27:33 Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-213-92.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:31:57 -!- xan_ [~xan@client195-220.wlan.hu-berlin.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:32:09 ehu [~ehuels@109.33.186.207] has joined #lisp 08:32:26 serichsen [~user@hmbg-5f764bb9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:32:27 Kryztof: what's the difference to CL, where #\( is more-or-less (read-delimited-list)? 08:32:30 Good morning! 08:35:07 flip214: #\( constructs data in the reader. `(` operates on R data. A side-effect is that (1*2)+3 executes slower than 1*2+3 :) 08:35:39 Kryztof: ah, that makes sense. thank you! 08:36:06 mstevens [~mstevens@ceres.etla.org] has joined #lisp 08:36:06 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@ceres.etla.org] has quit [Changing host] 08:36:06 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 08:38:50 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.33.186.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:39:15 <__mal> didn't the R people at one point consider a rewrite in CL? 08:39:51 xan_ [~xan@client195-220.wlan.hu-berlin.de] has joined #lisp 08:41:30 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:42:00 one of R's authors, yes. 08:42:19 ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 08:42:24 <__mal> I take it that hasn't happened :) 08:42:31 -!- m__h__ [~m@87-205-206-116.adsl.inetia.pl] has left #lisp 08:43:12 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:45:11 no 08:45:21 at least, not yet ... if we take the "Lisp curse" serious ;) 08:45:34 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-159-137.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:45:40 Lisp curse? 08:46:23 ZabaQ: http://www.winestockwebdesign.com/Essays/Lisp_Curse.html 09:00:51 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:01:25 ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 09:02:24 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:09:30 -!- xan_ [~xan@client195-220.wlan.hu-berlin.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:11:34 hello evreybody 09:17:59 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-68-230.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 09:20:50 -!- daimrod [~daimrod@sbrk.org] has quit [Quit: reboot] 09:20:53 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:22:14 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 09:22:57 daimrod [~daimrod@sbrk.org] has joined #lisp 09:24:45 KDr2 [~KDr2@123.122.118.141] has 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otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has joined #lisp 14:13:45 -!- sacho [~sacho@90.154.219.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:14:05 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:18:51 -!- otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:20:43 Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.183.236] has joined #lisp 14:20:59 genieliu [~genieliu@59.78.62.120] has joined #lisp 14:24:11 jose [~jose@206.132.224.107] has joined #lisp 14:24:14 Hi all 14:26:02 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 14:27:09 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.183.236] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:28:53 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-151-65.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:32:12 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:35:13 cpape [~user@static.233.242.47.78.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 14:36:16 otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has joined #lisp 14:38:09 -!- 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lnostdal [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: ciao :)] 14:58:04 hm? 14:59:10 joshe: someone with the name jose said hello earlier, so i replied... sadly i noticed the h in the tabcompleted name too late and jose had gone offline by that time. 14:59:40 Ah. 15:00:41 joshe: please register all nicknames remotely similar to your current nickname in order to avoid this in the future ;-) 15:01:28 I used to have my alternate nicks registered but I think they expire. 15:03:03 sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 15:04:55 -!- anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:06:01 ehu [~ehuels@109.33.68.181] has joined #lisp 15:06:14 -!- cpape [~user@static.233.242.47.78.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:06:51 -!- theBlackDragon [~user@212.123.24.66] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:07:34 seangrove [~user@c-69-181-193-11.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:57 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:06 lundis [~lundis@dyn56-31.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 15:12:41 Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-201-68.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:14:38 dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 15:14:42 -!- alama [~jessealam@86.93.35.187] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:20:21 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:21:54 is (stringp (make-array 10 :element-type 'character)) supposed to be true? 15:22:03 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-163-38.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:22:06 sykopomp: yes 15:22:20 cheezus [~Adium@69-165-129-59.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 15:22:52 -!- cheezus [~Adium@69-165-129-59.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 15:23:04 Kryztof: thanks 15:25:48 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 15:26:29 alama [~jessealam@86.93.35.187] has joined #lisp 15:26:35 MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-098-026-089-203.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:29:45 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.33.68.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:29:50 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-179-251.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 15:32:11 has anyone tried converting CLHS to Kindle/mobipocket ? 15:35:41 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-74-67-199-254.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:36:09 It's mere HTML, what problem do you have? 15:36:45 demmeln [~Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:36:49 IME, converting HTML to ebook formats isn't as easy as you'd think, if you actually waant a sensible result 15:36:59 pnq [~nick@ACA22C55.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 15:37:16 last i used the kindle, hyperlinks were pretty inconvenient 15:37:26 -!- calliostro [~user@213.215.140.109] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:37:39 reading CLHS before going to sleep? 15:37:51 heh i was wondering that 15:38:01 pondering not taking laptop on vacation 15:38:27 do you have emacs and lisp running on kindle already? 15:39:15 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:41:23 srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:30 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:41:38 stassats`: nope. clisp and ECL should work, and ABCL probably too, but it's not mine and thus not modded 15:41:38 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-179-204-64.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:17 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-135.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:42:37 I might have to tinker around with trying to do that... 15:42:58 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-135.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:43:07 p_l|backup: so, what do you do with CLHS without a lisp? 15:43:20 Reading, learning. 15:43:27 finding internal contradictions 15:43:31 trying to make sense of the pathnames chapter 15:43:35 excellent holiday fun 15:44:51 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-151-65.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:45:22 homie` [~levgue@78.35.137.135] has joined #lisp 15:47:48 -!- cfy` [~cfy@125.123.46.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:53:19 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.208] has joined #lisp 15:54:05 stassats`: in-depth reading instead of quick reference 15:54:45 -!- jvia [~jvia@bi1.roaming.dfn.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 15:56:07 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:58:48 larva [~larvanitr@ec2-46-51-171-183.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 15:59:24 Hi. In Common Lisp (in particular SBCL) is there a performance specificly in the context of threading, with using methods instead functions, and / or classes instead of functions? Something like "for each method call, unlike function call, a global lock has to be grabbed". 16:00:13 -!- TDT [~TDT@5317-nat01.eng.uiowa.edu] has quit [Quit: TDT] 16:00:38 -!- larva [~larvanitr@ec2-46-51-171-183.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:00:43 TDT [~TDT@5317-nat01.eng.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 16:01:06 demmeln: until caches are filled 16:01:22 -!- homie` [~levgue@78.35.137.135] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:01:28 larva [~larvanitr@ec2-46-51-171-183.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 16:01:53 CLOS in SBCL invokes the compiler, and compiler locks, but that shouldn't impact the performance in the long run 16:03:46 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-135.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:05:33 ah ok sounds good. I'm only interested in the long run. I'll have to check out what kind of caching sbcl for method dispatch. 16:05:55 -!- larva [~larvanitr@ec2-46-51-171-183.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:06:34 larva [~larvanitr@ec2-46-51-171-183.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 16:07:27 HG` [~HG@p5DC05C4C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:27 does it something along the lines of (for single methods) "each time the method is called for a certain type the type is looked up in the cache, where the effective method is stored. If not found, it is added (-> compiler).", or am I completely off track? 16:11:19 method combinations for given dispatch types are cached, if I remember AMOP correctly. 16:11:20 cfy [~cfy@125.123.46.186] has joined #lisp 16:11:20 -!- cfy [~cfy@125.123.46.186] has quit [Changing host] 16:11:20 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 16:11:48 Kryztof: I find that reading CLHS while sober and walking around while drunk invoke the same feeling. 16:12:34 zenbalrog: you feel on a straight path not ? 16:12:37 lol 16:13:44 homie: well you sometimes end up in places you never intended... 16:13:59 -!- Guest6801 is now known as pjb 16:14:26 zenbalrog: sooner or later you'll get there anyway....if you intended it or not.... 16:15:23 homie: yup its the journey not just the destination right? 16:15:44 zenbalrog: hm, seems you dont have an autopilot that takes you home? 16:16:47 *Fade* has a horse with a 'return home' feature. 16:17:08 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:17:19 ok cheers guys 16:17:37 mcstar: lol. i wouldn't trust autopiloted cars... too many other drivers would just mess with them or try to make them crash 16:17:51 demmeln: I highly recommend The Art of the Metaobject Protocol 16:17:56 aka AMOP 16:18:10 it's even still in print. :) 16:18:46 mcstar: never underestimate the power of a human to break a computer 16:18:47 get a metacircular inference engine.... 16:18:53 lol 16:19:06 zenbalrog: well, i was thinking of my sub-conscious autopilot: no cars involved, only walking and mass transit 16:20:01 Fade: such a horse is nice if you go on a drinking tour, but if you make an expedition, it'd be embarrassing to be stranded 500 km from home... 16:20:15 true enough 16:20:23 pick the horse for the course. :) 16:21:43 mcstar: oh. true. that is tried and true. but this is all offtopic for this channel. sorry 16:22:02 i cannot agree more 16:22:08 -!- genieliu [~genieliu@59.78.62.120] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:24:13 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:25:57 Fade: yeah i should really read this. Do implementations generally implement mop like in AMOP? 16:26:07 no 16:26:10 mop is more basic 16:26:19 clos is more complete 16:26:30 mop is just something of a prototype 16:26:31 homie: what are you talking about? 16:26:46 homie: that's... confused. 16:26:52 well yes 16:27:08 Vive les lignes de codes! 16:27:19 demmeln: AMOP describes exactly the semantics of CLOS in general, if not the specific implementation a given CL has. 16:27:23 (cf Pascal COstanza's blog) 16:27:44 -!- tfb [~tfb@80.238.0.145] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 16:27:46 amop does not give the specific implementation details of any given CL 16:27:54 Tau [~Euler@189-127-61-98.i-next.psi.br] has joined #lisp 16:28:02 Zhivago:=: Hello. 16:28:08 I would like to hear of your opiinion on a lisp implementation. 16:28:16 although some Common Lisp implementations take the approach of using closette 16:28:16 CLOS is a specific implementation of an object system. It can be written with the MOP. 16:28:18 jvia [~jvia@pD9575887.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:19 Zhivago:=: it is written in JS> 16:28:34 doesn't ABCL use closette? 16:29:04 i thought there wouldn't be any implementations using closette anymore..... 16:29:14 eheh 16:29:22 does abcl really do ? 16:29:34 what's so surprising about it? 16:29:42 or has it it's own idea's about closette ? 16:29:47 it was a question; i am remembering a discussion over a year ago when Xach mentioned that some implementation was using it. 16:29:55 hmmmmm 16:30:23 ";;; Originally based on Closette. ;;; Closette Version 1.0 (February 10, 1991)" 16:30:41 *nod* 16:30:47 well what I really wanted to ask is whether by reading AMOP I will find out e.g. when an implementation will desrupt parallelism (e.g. for SBCL invoke the compiler) and such specific things. This is of course part of the semantics, but maybe not the part that AMOP describes, hence my question. 16:31:23 demmeln: you maybe get a better idea about those things, with implementation code.... 16:31:35 demmeln: every implementation has a different approach to parallelism. 16:31:37 and SBCL uses a modified version of PCL 16:31:39 demmeln: and maybe with "lisp in small pieces" 16:31:45 because multiprocessing was never specified. 16:31:57 demmeln: tho i don't know if parallelism is a subject in that book 16:32:08 demmeln: i read it only 100 pages or so.... 16:32:09 so no book is going to give you a general answer. you have to dig into the implementation code. 16:32:15 ah 16:32:17 see 16:32:48 ska` [~user@ppp-58-8-226-74.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 16:32:48 homie: LISP felt bigger than 100pages the last time i held it in my hands ;-) 16:32:56 never read more than the frist two chapters though... 16:32:56 demmeln: i would ask on the mailing-lists if i were you.... 16:33:26 demmeln: i have to read the other parts some time.... 16:33:39 -!- tarmil [~user@109.74.51.29] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:33:45 I guess I should do that. 16:34:51  and read AMOP some day to get a better overview of how it all fits together and read in the SBCL source and read LISP. To much interesting stuff, too little time :-/ 16:35:59 AMOP should be interesting not only from the perspective of CLOS, but from the perspective of designing extensible systems 16:37:05 there's an interesting talk by Kiczales, "Why are Black Boxes so Hard to Reuse?" http://www2.parc.com/csl/groups/sda/projects/oi/towards-talk/transcript.html 16:38:12 ah cool thanks for the link 16:40:20 -!- aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 16:41:50 -!- mcstar [~mcstar@adsl-89-132-46-13.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 16:42:35 SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@VEROXITY.ipcolo1.SanFrancisco1.Level3.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:10 -!- Tau [~Euler@189-127-61-98.i-next.psi.br] has quit [Quit: Nerdirc renders latex on the screen. Pick up it !] 16:44:54 -!- scrimohsin [~asshole@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:47:37 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-159-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:33 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 16:50:09 -!- TDT [~TDT@5317-nat01.eng.uiowa.edu] has quit [Quit: TDT] 16:51:12 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:51:16 stassats`: re last nights query about osicat vs. cl-fad TIL that these too have divergent return values 16:51:19 (osicat:walk-directory "." #'print :directories :breadth-first) 16:51:20 (cl-fad:walk-directory "." #'print :directories :breadth-first) 16:59:57 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A5FB0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:03:26 -!- demmeln [~Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:04:08 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-179-234.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:08:12 markskil1eck [~mark@host86-137-39-93.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:08:29 mon_key: as far as i'm concerned osicat's values are just what the docs say 17:09:13 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:09:20 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:09:28 SuChek [~SuChek@unaffiliated/suchek] has joined #lisp 17:09:42 nikodemus: OK. So can I rely on this not changing? 17:10:02 i mean, you may disagree with the API, but i haven't yet seen something that disagrees with osicat's docs -- and osicat is most emphatetically not cl-fad derivative. it predates it by a year or so 17:10:42 nikodemus: I wasn't aware of the timing. So the docs of cl-fad were derivative of osicats? 17:10:49 no idea 17:11:07 cl-fad wraps host lisp's functions 17:11:26 osicat implements its own on top of posix functionality, so it's actually reliably portable 17:11:53 you can rely on them not changing as much as you can rely on any documented function not changing 17:12:31 nikodemus: I understand that osicat/cl-fad have different implementations. And, I would prefer to use osicat :) 17:12:49 ie. maybe someone convinces the maintainers that the current API is broken and harmful and they change it -- but osicat is supposed to be fairly stable, so that's relatively unlikely 17:13:03 --> home 17:13:46 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181056239.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:14:25 -!- corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:16:49 nikodemus: i have no desire to advocate for a change if it isn't borken, i just want to understand that osicats current behaviour w/r/t dotted namestrings is intended. 17:17:11 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:19:09 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 17:20:50 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:22:02 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has joined #lisp 17:27:01 rosario [~rosario@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:01 -!- rosario [~rosario@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:27:01 rosario [~rosario@fsf/member/rosario] has joined #lisp 17:28:03 fbass [~fbass@75-173-95-248.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:11 -!- fbass [~fbass@75-173-95-248.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:28:39 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-201-68.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:30:00 -!- markskil1eck [~mark@host86-137-39-93.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:31:12 in a 64-bit acl, what code does (print-type-counts) report for FUNCTION? 17:31:31 kslt1 [~karl.sier@netblock-208-127-156-174.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 17:31:35 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-74-67-199-254.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:31:38 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 17:34:04 acelent: 136 17:34:10 137 for closure 17:37:27 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:39:55 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:48:21 -!- waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-4d0491cf.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:48:40 -!- MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-098-026-089-203.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:50:53 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.230.76] has joined #lisp 17:51:17 -!- mbenkn [~mbenkn@41.251.46.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:53:47 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-74-67-199-254.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:57:13 markskil1eck [~mark@host86-136-236-117.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:57:47 carlocci [~nes@93.37.219.8] has joined #lisp 17:58:40 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-058-186.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:29 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:01:36 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:15 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:03:45 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA22C55.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:06:02 mbenkn [~mbenkn@41.251.46.99] has joined #lisp 18:06:31 summersaultf [~george@189.12.247.248] has joined #lisp 18:06:57 -!- summersaultf is now known as summersault 18:09:55 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-058-186.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 18:10:40 -!- mbenkn [~mbenkn@41.251.46.99] has left #lisp 18:10:58 MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-098-026-089-203.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:11:04 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 18:11:55 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.230.76] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 18:12:25 leo2007 [~leo@58.22.113.162] has joined #lisp 18:19:46 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:21:30 -!- MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-098-026-089-203.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:23:48 stassats`: the new code conses less 18:25:05 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:25:42 lisper: great 18:26:27 Vivitron [~user@pool-71-174-61-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:21 tyfighter [~tyfighter@c-98-210-64-158.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:10 -!- tyfighter [~tyfighter@c-98-210-64-158.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:29:26 lisper: though it still conses, but i was unable to find the places where it does 18:29:36 everything's inlined, it's hard to profile 18:31:04 stassats`: yeah but it is better 18:31:58 what do you use find-function-callers for? 18:33:30 -!- dgiaimo [~dgiaimo@pool-96-237-60-243.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:33:35 stassats slime uses it AFAIK 18:33:51 my workaround was to just use git-grep 18:35:08 you can use xref, who-calls 18:35:17 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:41 hi. is there any way to make slime load an entire ASDF system and make one big compilation buffer with all the errors/warnings? 18:35:48 -!- alama [~jessealam@86.93.35.187] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:35:52 i suspect lisper is using slime-list-callers instead of slime-who-calls 18:35:52 hmm, guess i could ask on #emacs 18:35:58 -!- summersault [~george@189.12.247.248] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:36:35 dto: you can't ask on #emacs 18:36:42 they don't like slime questions there 18:36:47 oops, too late 18:36:57 dto: and to answer it, use slime-asdf contrib, and ,load-system at the repl 18:37:05 ooh. 18:38:55 oh interesting. 18:39:03 i didn't know , went into command mode 18:39:16 ok, it says no warnings though 18:39:20 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:39:22 oh wait. 18:39:30 nik I use C-c < 18:40:07 lisper: use C-c C-w C-c instead 18:40:07 alama [~jessealam@86.93.35.187] has joined #lisp 18:40:18 ok 18:40:21 *lisper* rebinds 18:40:24 dto: perhaps because you already have it compiled 18:40:45 lisper: though there are differences, but for user code who-calls should be enough 18:40:47 and much faster 18:41:02 dto: there's ,reload-system 18:41:04 stassats`: fantastic! now i have one big buffer. 18:41:22 but it will reload only the specified system 18:42:48 stassats`: mmm curious what are the differences ;) 18:43:11 lisper: read the docstring for swank-backend:list-callers 18:43:16 kk 18:44:42 <_3b> if i inspect an object from sldb (and maybe try to pprint it from there), which variable controls how it prints? (circle, level, etc) 18:45:12 i would think swank::*inspector-printer-bindings* 18:45:15 don't know about pprinting 18:45:49 (define-key slime-mode-map (kbd "H-<") 'slime-who-calls) all fixed :) 18:46:20 <_3b> would the *backtrace-printer-bindings* still be in effect? 18:46:55 i'm starting to use xref functions (who-calls, who-macroexpands, etc) more when refactoring 18:47:05 stassats`: that is what I do 18:47:20 not that you can recompile functions directly from the Xref buffer, C-c C-c for a fucntion at line, C-c C-k for all functions 18:47:21 and why I even noticed the memory use in the first place ;) 18:47:31 yep! 18:47:34 useful when changing macros 18:47:38 really useful 18:47:46 i used M-x rgrep before 18:48:02 i still use it for some other things 18:48:11 well my projects are all in git (including now sbcl!) so I use vc-git-grep 18:48:14 <_3b> though i guess if i set the ones i care about in the inspector bindings, that wouldn't matter 18:48:19 *_3b* tries that 18:49:18 and for those who are lazy and don't feel like confirming the directory and the file pattern every time... I defined this function that calls vc-git-grep. (defun my-git-grep () (interactive) (vc-git-grep (grep-read-regexp) "*.lisp" default-directory)) 18:49:57 that will cause git grep to run in the current git repository that the file is in, no matter where it is in the repository. 18:50:01 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-179-234.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 18:51:47 naturally I get tired of typing M-x my-git-grep RET every time I need it, so I defined this handy shortcut: (define-key lisp-mode-map (kbd "H-g") 'shi-git-grep) 18:52:06 bah 'my-git-grep at the end there. I renamed it 18:52:08 pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 18:52:09 <_3b> closer, didn't seem to fix print-circle though 18:52:16 lisper: I like to use ack for the things who-calls doesn't find 18:52:25 -!- Harag [~Harag@dsl-242-254-64.telkomadsl.co.za] has left #lisp 18:52:28 <_3b> ah, maybe not... still got #4=# :/ 18:52:30 lisper: see full-ack for a really nice emacs interface to it 18:52:52 will look into it ^-^ 18:53:22 fortitudeZDY [~yaaic@123.103.66.134] has joined #lisp 18:53:26 *_3b* tries *inspector-verbose-printer-bindings*, since that is the part i'm actually looking at 18:54:40 lisper: see also http://paste.lisp.org/display/123994 (: 18:55:05 -!- leo2007 [~leo@58.22.113.162] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 18:55:29 very nice antifuchs :) 18:55:38 I ought to share my slime scratch extensions ^^ 18:55:59 I'd need to package those up though. 18:56:21 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:08 *lisper* waits on the arm port to download ^^ 18:57:37 Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-226-191.w90-54.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:57:49 arm port of what? 19:02:57 stassats`: someone's attempt to port sbcl to arm ^-^. I'm thinking of giving that a shot 19:03:16 nyef's? it's not finished 19:03:30 sadly I have to go atm but I'll be on later :) 19:03:46 broken stuff is just fine with me :) 19:03:54 more fun that way 19:04:03 i mean it's not finished finished 19:05:11 and yea sbcl really could do with a peephole optimizer 19:05:23 found another case it would be useful for 19:05:29 (converting two jumps into one) 19:06:04 and when I get back someone could remind me about the addition associtivity stuff, I think I have a working patch 19:06:05 lisper: check the mailing list circa last december. Think that was last I heard of it. Can't remember the fellow's name at present. 19:06:18 The peephole optimizer that is. The patch was posted to sourceforge. 19:06:24 jump tensioning doesn't need to (shouldn't, even) go through a peephole pass 19:06:51 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-74-67-199-254.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:07:09 pkhoung well a peephole optimizer would catch this case, but perhaps it should be fixed elsewhere. I don't claim to understand how the sbcl compiler works yet 19:09:03 -!- lisper [18d1340b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.209.52.11] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:12:16 mon_key: osicat will certainly not change in that regard 19:13:39 fe[nl]ix: I just zapped nikodemus a long email detailing the locus of my concern 19:13:53 :( 19:14:05 mon_key: osicat has a mailing list. please use it 19:14:49 SuChek_ [~SuChek@unaffiliated/suchek] has joined #lisp 19:15:14 fe[nl]ix: Ok i'm off to register a mail account. Whee! 19:15:42 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [] 19:15:53 There seems to be an imcompatibility in the lastest quicklisp release when it comes to clsql and uffi for the call convert-from-foreign-string 19:16:27 clsql uses the :encoding keyword argument but it doesnt seem like its in uffi 19:17:50 -!- SuChek [~SuChek@unaffiliated/suchek] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:21:37 antifuchs: thanks! 19:23:21 -!- fortitudeZDY [~yaaic@123.103.66.134] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:25:41 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:27:31 is there a lisp library for asynchronous processing? 19:27:44 bordeaux-threads 19:29:08 ah finally it seems that the cffi in quicklisp is too old 19:36:39 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.230.76] has joined #lisp 19:36:53 hello 19:37:51 fe[nl]ix: The transcipt of the exchange is now avaiable on osicat-devel 19:38:11 thanks 19:40:30 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:42:21 -!- cracauer [~Adium@nat/google/x-mdppxkwpyulpejse] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:45:24 AndroUser [~androirc@91-115-82-201.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 19:47:13 -!- AndroUser [~androirc@91-115-82-201.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Client Quit] 19:48:13 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-226-191.w90-54.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:49:15 fe[nl]ix: how much of a bad idea do you think it would be to associate a pipe with each thread? 19:49:51 not much 19:50:27 If it's useful. But you can know if a thread has completed with other ways. 19:51:04 okflo [~demmelirc@91-115-82-201.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 19:51:10 fe[nl]ix: e.g., in practice, the fd limit is high enough not to be an issue? Awesome. 19:51:12 I'm trying to use plain-odbc to access a DBISAM database. I can setup a connection fine. When I execute a query I get a unhandled exeception. This is on windows XP. I tried with SBCL, CCL and CLISP. Any ideas? 19:51:14 SBCL threads are heavyweight anyway, one can't create more than a few hundred so the addition to the FD table is small 19:51:32 pjb: that's not the use case. 19:51:36 There's a fd limit around 1000 by default, but it can be increased. 19:51:57 the distros default to 1024, maybe some 4096 19:52:08 -!- kslt1 [~karl.sier@netblock-208-127-156-174.dslextreme.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:52:09 but that's very easy to increase 19:53:20 pkhuong: if you do that, it would be a good idea to point users to limits.conf(5) in the docs 19:53:41 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:54:18 -!- okflo [~demmelirc@91-115-82-201.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:54:28 still very much exploratory, and it doesn't really make sense on linux anyway. 19:54:36 okflo [~demmelirc@91-115-82-201.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 19:55:07 -!- okflo [~demmelirc@91-115-82-201.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Client Quit] 19:55:25 I wouldn't say it's *very* easy to increase... 19:55:28 what would you like to do with those pipes, and on which OS then ? 19:55:39 It'll cause the same sorts of issues as SBCL requiring huge VM spaces 19:56:09 It will irritate users on shared systems, where they can't do root-y things. 19:56:10 foom: higher oom_score ? 19:56:13 -!- replore_ [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:56:19 *sshirokov* runs SBCL with 60K+ limits of open files, keeps 500-1000 open without issue 19:56:46 foom: that's what I wanted to know. 19:56:48 What foom said is super-true though, even on a private system it did not take me long to bounce off ulimit -n 19:57:17 fe[nl]ix: I didn't mean technically the same issue. I meant same "causes users trouble" issue. 19:58:00 essentially all linux boxes default to the hard limit set to 1024 (ridiculous IMO, but what can you do) 19:58:15 OS X is even lower by default, FYI something like 256 19:58:17 you mean for people trying to use SBCL on 64Mb Xen/VZ/whatever guests ? 19:58:32 I still think that's ridiculous 19:58:50 no. 19:59:11 sbcl doesn't run on reasonably sized system without memory overcommit enabled. 19:59:25 sugarshark [~ole@p548849DE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:59:34 some sysadmins of shared systems reasonably feel that it's a good idea to disable that, so users can't cause eachother excessive performance loss. 19:59:41 pkhuong: but yes, it will probably cause problems to users of virtualization services with very tight resource limits 20:00:04 *sykopomp* is hoping for a lisp system with M:N threading before the heat death of the universe. 20:00:14 sykopomp +1 20:00:29 why would an M:N threading system in lisp be a good idea when it's been proven to be a bad idea for C? 20:00:30 I personally would find that quite pleasurable as well 20:00:30 i'd like to use sbcl on small-footprint vms :P 20:00:34 fe[nl]ix: FWIW, I'm looking for a nice way to implement (OS-scheduler-aware) events. They're a bit like condition variables for one waiter and n signallers, but actually safe to use. 20:00:46 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-159-137.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:01:02 m:n? Just write a state machine, like real men. 20:01:08 foom: proven? Not to mention, Lisp isn't C. 20:01:09 foom: works well enough for erlang people, so it's certainly useful for some cases 20:01:17 I haven't heard of such proof, though. 20:01:19 Both linux and solaris had M:N threading implementations in the past, and threw them out. 20:01:24 Proof by experiment 20:01:28 fe[nl]ix: and GHC folks, and Go folks. 20:01:48 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-179-234.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:01:56 foom: doesn't dragonflybsd still have it? 20:02:29 C doesn't seem like it would play nice as it is with such a large number of threads. :\ 20:02:31 antifuchs: could be, but that a random BSD has it doesn't mean that it's good performance. 20:02:44 agree 20:02:49 sykopomp: and CL would? 20:03:41 foom: they threw them out because the implementation allowed a single threading model per kernel 20:04:24 I'd like to be able to have SMP threads and M:N threads in the same process 20:04:55 I can see cooperative threads in SBCL... but they'd be as heavy as real threads. 20:05:34 -!- sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:06:27 no, that's not why. It's because to have good performance, the userspace scheduler and kernel scheduler need to be tightly coupled, so that the kernel scheduler can make good scheduling decisions 20:06:51 And that turned out to be harder than simply making the kernel threading implementation scale better. 20:06:58 pkhuong: well, for me... I'm more comfortable writing higher-level abstractions in CL than in C :) 20:09:02 There are technical papers on both the thread models in solaris, and why they switched, and the NPTL introduction in linux detailing the issues. 20:09:14 foom: again, there are people who disagree based on actual empirical data 20:10:02 I find it funny that after writing linux threads, xavier leroy is adamantly opposed to implementing them in ocaml. 20:13:24 maybe he got wiser in the process 20:13:54 -!- seangrove [~user@c-69-181-193-11.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:15:18 (or damien doligez who wrote a really nice phd thesis on concurrent GCs, and, I'm told, refuses to integrate it in ocaml because it's hell to debug) 20:16:25 -!- rosario [~rosario@fsf/member/rosario] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:24:48 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:26:52 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:27:03 -!- workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:28:56 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:28:58 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:29:43 em [~em@user-0ccem0s.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 20:29:45 -!- em [~em@user-0ccem0s.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Changing host] 20:29:45 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 20:35:24 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:35:40 ASau [~user@95-28-79-252.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 20:36:16 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 20:38:22 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:39:10 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 20:40:17 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-187.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:58 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:43:17 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 20:43:22 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Client Quit] 20:43:37 kslt1 [~karl.sier@netblock-208-127-156-174.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 20:43:42 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:44:22 -!- Joreji [~thomas@95-074.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:46:26 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 20:46:32 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:45 -!- Organometallica [~Jeremy@c-98-212-148-123.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:49:40 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:47 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:52:25 pkhuong: do those same concurrent GCing issue apply to CL? 20:52:36 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:52:41 concurrent GCs being a pain to debug? probably. 20:52:50 -!- pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:53:32 lol 20:55:24 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:55:47 ;| concurrent GCs being a pain to debug because presumably ML/CL may share some similiarity w/r/t _how_ they they GC... 20:57:15 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-187.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 20:57:31 Or because Concurrent GCs are just a seriously hard problem, regardless of language. 20:57:33 pkhuong: is this the thesis you refd: http://gallium.inria.fr/~doligez/doligez_bib.html#cuoq-doligez-ml-2008? 20:58:15 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-216-129.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:59:17 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:59:31 mon_key: That link 404s for me. 20:59:38 me too. sorry 20:59:44 the title was "Hashconsing in an incrementally garbage-collected system" 21:00:54 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-187.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:12 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.119.222] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:01:18 or maybe one of these: http://gallium.inria.fr/~doligez/caml-guts/ 21:01:30 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.119.222] has joined #lisp 21:01:56 mon_key: Definitely this one: http://gallium.inria.fr/~doligez/caml-guts/Doligez95.ps.gz 21:02:02 He said it was his PhD thesis, remember? 21:03:09 yes. 21:03:36 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:03:52 this one is satisfying me quite nicely though :) http://gallium.inria.fr/~doligez/caml-guts/Doligez95.ps.gz 21:05:51 Amadiro_ [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 21:07:21 Bike [~Glossina@c-24-21-72-37.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:42 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:08:14 I kind of wish that paper was xlated into english. :) 21:10:41 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.119.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:12:16 kpreid [~kpreid@nat/google/x-qkefjzanytwbppap] has joined #lisp 21:14:37 Is there tinaa doc for hunchentoot? 21:18:36 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:22:57 FWIW the Doligez93 does say (if I'm reading it correctly) that his ML concurrency benefitted from _not_ having the equivalent of CL:EQ 21:23:33 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:27:41 -!- nha [~prefect@5-74.104-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:28:00 -!- kslt1 [~karl.sier@netblock-208-127-156-174.dslextreme.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:31:26 What about an equivalent of CL:EQL? 21:32:21 Jubb [~ghost@68.34.79.50] has joined #lisp 21:37:51 IIUC the paper is saying that in the absence of CL:EQ his ML can prove that certian objects are immutable 21:40:49 -!- Amadiro_ [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:42:04 its the last paragraph of section 2 of Doligez93 21:44:14 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Quit: bye] 21:44:18 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:47:24 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75fec2.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:16 hi 21:49:08 Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:51:58 anttih [~aholvika@a91-152-73-156.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 21:52:19 -!- anttih [~aholvika@a91-152-73-156.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has left #lisp 21:52:27 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:53:51 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@nat/google/x-qkefjzanytwbppap] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:57:02 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:57:04 Amadiro_ [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 21:57:51 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC05C4C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: HG`] 21:58:08 hussaibi [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #lisp 21:58:10 hussaibi_ [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #lisp 21:58:33 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 22:01:43 -!- Jubb [~ghost@68.34.79.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:01:48 summersaultf [~george@189.12.247.248] has joined #lisp 22:01:58 -!- summersaultf [~george@189.12.247.248] has quit [Client Quit] 22:02:08 summersault [~george@189.12.247.248] has joined #lisp 22:06:21 pnq [~nick@ACA2B6E6.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 22:10:43 kslt1 [~karl.sier@netblock-208-127-156-174.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 22:10:50 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-6-95.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:49 El_Diablo [~Aaron@adsl-68-88-193-53.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:03 -!- sugarshark [~ole@p548849DE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:17:47 corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has joined #lisp 22:23:11 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2B6E6.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:24:00 -!- summersault [~george@189.12.247.248] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:26:44 Hunden [~Hunden@e180102151.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:27:12 Hundenn [~Hunden@e180102151.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:27:50 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75fec2.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:27:57 -!- Lycurgus [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:29:03 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:32:29 pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 22:34:55 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:38:40 -!- alama [~jessealam@86.93.35.187] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:39:25 pnq [~nick@ACA226C8.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 22:40:02 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:41:01 stassats: Thanks a lot for the super mega awesome link "Why are Black Boxes so Hard to Reuse?" http://www2.parc.com/csl/groups/sda/projects/oi/towards-talk/transcript.html ! This was very timely for me. 22:41:20 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-135.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:41:21 yrwlcm 22:41:37 srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has joined #lisp 22:42:13 stassats: Trying to save bandwidth all of a sudden? 22:42:40 my other hand was wet 22:44:12 Jubb [~ghost@68.34.79.50] has joined #lisp 22:45:00 -!- dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:45:10 -!- hussaibi_ [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:45:24 -!- hussaibi [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:45:47 Levente [~Levente@145.236.198.66] has joined #lisp 22:46:01 I'm trying to load clsql-odbc and having some issues with uffi. Could someone take a look please? http://paste.lisp.org/display/124007 thanks 22:46:08 hi guys! 22:46:11 mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:11 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:46:11 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 22:46:14 Levente: Hello. 22:46:43 paprika [~paprika@p2155-ipbf1015osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:46:58 anybody has some experience generating the same sequence of random numbers using lisp and java? 22:46:59 Kenjin: it needs to build some libraries, do you have a working c toolchain? 22:47:17 I'm using a mersenne twister implementation but they do generate different sequences 22:47:32 oh. I'm on a windows VM. It's possible I don't 22:47:36 timepilot [~timepilot@c-24-91-16-174.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:44 Levente: how important is performance? 22:47:45 may I expect that they match? 22:47:50 pkhuong, not at all 22:47:55 Levente: it depends on the seed. 22:48:03 pkhuong, I use the same seed 22:48:22 how large is your seed? 22:48:33 an integer 22:48:44 maybe that's the problem... 22:48:48 The state of MT is a couple hundred bits; there are multiple ways to map integers to states. 22:48:55 -!- paprika [~paprika@p2155-ipbf1015osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:48:57 the two implementations are referred from the wikipedia page 22:49:14 they seem to be quite ok for me 22:49:21 I'd use something simple, like mrg32k3a. Easy to code in any language, good quality, and you can find implementations too. 22:49:43 pkhuong, hmm, maybe I should try that 22:49:49 thanks 22:51:28 nicdev_ [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:52:20 stassats: Do you know how to go about setting up a c toolchain on windows? 22:52:31 no 22:53:27 stassats: ok. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. 22:53:37 14WABXH70 [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #lisp 22:53:37 18VAAJ7C4 [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #lisp 22:53:48 -!- djuber [~djuber@c-76-16-60-176.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has left #lisp 22:59:46 -!- 14WABXH70 [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:59:50 -!- 18VAAJ7C4 [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:03:41 -!- pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:06:53 <_3b> does slime debugger hide some of the stack frames by default? 23:07:28 yes 23:08:11 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.153.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:08:31 <_3b> any way to show them again, or prevent them from being hidden? 23:09:16 move the cursor past the bottom entry and the others should appear 23:09:37 <_3b> i meant internal stuff at the top of the stack 23:10:00 _3b: M-x slime-toggle-debug-on-swank-error 23:10:24 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.153.100] has joined #lisp 23:10:57 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-187.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 23:11:12 -!- jvia [~jvia@pD9575887.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:13:41 cheier [~amedueces@c-76-107-19-58.hsd1.ms.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:52 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:14:45 *_3b* wonders what that sbcl is doing that needs 789% CPU 23:15:05 did M-x s-t-d-o-s-e work? 23:15:25 <_3b> not sure yet, hard to trigger the error that would give the backtrace with possible missing frames :/ 23:16:32 <_3b> yeah, that looks better 23:18:28 hussaibi [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #lisp 23:18:28 77CAA010P [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #lisp 23:18:42 <_3b> not that any of the extra frames bothered to save any useful locals to tell me what is happening :/ 23:19:50 hussaibi__ [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #lisp 23:19:51 hussaibi_ [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #lisp 23:20:16 *maxm* would give half the kinddom for source-level SBCL debugger that actually works.. Even for something that works with simular level of functionality as edebug in emacs lisp 23:20:27 right now its logging or nothing 23:20:50 <_3b> you mean stepping and such? 23:21:13 that's not quite true, sbcl debugger is quite useful 23:21:30 granted, it can be improved 23:21:37 yea.. And I know there is existing support, but it sucks donkey balls.. I even patched my slime to support single stepping, (ie redisplay source on each step, fixed sldb-break to actually insert the breakpoints etc 23:22:11 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 23:22:33 who needs stepping anyway, i use "look at the backtrace, think hard, fix the bug" 23:22:38 but current stepper is way broken, coz half the code (ie everything that is translated by vops) does not generate any debug instrumentation, so debugger just skips through half the expressions, basically through all numerical stuff 23:23:02 like (+ i (aref array (* 3 whatever))) you not gonna be able to debug that... 23:23:10 -!- 77CAA010P [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:23:15 <_3b> did you set (debug 3)? 23:23:21 yes 23:24:12 -!- hussaibi [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:24:46 *_3b* wonders if the evaluator is any more debuggable, though seems like someone said it isn't 23:25:06 _3b: no, not really. 23:27:14 -!- emma is now known as em 23:30:12 hussaibi [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #lisp 23:30:22 for example stepping though the following function with (debug 3) (defun foo (array var1 var2 var3) (let* ((idx (+ var3 (* var1 var2)))(value (aref array idx))) value)) 23:31:04 shows the following in debugger: 1) Evaluating (* var1 var2) with unknown arguments 2) evaluating (+ var3 (* var1 var2)) with unknown arguments 23:31:13 which is kind of useless 23:31:30 -!- hussaibi_ [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:31:33 -!- hussaibi__ [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:32:36 -!- upwardindex [~upwardind@modemcable016.209-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: upwardindex] 23:35:31 pearle [~pearle@2.112.215.24.scpe.seaside.ns.ca] has joined #lisp 23:35:56 <_3b> well, you could always notinline + and * if you are desperate :) 23:37:40 <_3b> (filing bug reports/feature requests might also be useful, so devs that tend towards the "backtrace&think" style have a better chance of remembering people want to use the stepper) 23:39:48 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-6-95.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:40:39 hmm actually let me try..I thought they are not inlined already? I'm looking at the disassembly and it shows code for (+ var1 var2) as BREAK 14 (debugger before), MOV onereg, var1, MOV secondreg var2, CALL generic+ 23:41:41 -!- Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:41:41 -!- ngz [~user@209.141.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:42:06 *_3b* wonders how much funding nikodemus (or whoever) could get for debugger and related stuff fixes 23:42:17 wow the noninline thing actually worked 23:42:38 shows "evaluating (+ var1 var2) with arguments 1 2)" in the debugger 23:42:51 live and learn, this is way cool.. Why does not (debug 3) make that default? 23:43:18 I mean debug 3 already kills the execution speed anyway, should not notinline for everything be default under debug 3 speed 0? 23:43:36 maxm: you an set sb-ext:*inline-expansion-limit* to 0 23:43:47 it will not inline anything 23:43:59 ok let me try that 23:44:11 <_3b> well, killing all compiler macros might make your testing less useful, if they happen to be what is broken :) 23:44:47 hussaibi_ [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #lisp 23:46:19 hmm *inline-expansion-limit* not seems to be working 23:46:28 I set it to 0, it still skipped over the (aref) call 23:46:48 -!- Levente [~Levente@145.236.198.66] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:46:48 I did (declaim (notinline aref)) and now it shows the aref with correct arguments when stepping 23:47:09 _3b: I have old notes on how this coule be done with hooks on ir1-translation. 23:47:20 *_3b* would suggest putting those in a declare inside the function rather than declaiming them 23:48:31 <_3b> who knows what random things you break with global declaims (and brokenness that might persist in .fasl files if you happen to load any libraries in that image) 23:48:37 -!- SuChek_ [~SuChek@unaffiliated/suchek] has left #lisp 23:49:08 well I have asdf-binary-locations hack that stores FASL's under the directory name based on current optimization settings, so it work out pretty good actually 23:49:50 ie .sbcl-version-11110 .sbcl-version-32000.. (the last ones basically debug safety speed compilation speed) 23:49:59 <_3b> (declaim notinline) doesn't sound like an optimization setting 23:50:54 yea I have to think of a way to make this work automatically with debug 3... Maybe set debug to 4, and add some piece of code that automatically notinlines everything when debug is 4 23:51:13 or find where the decision is made based on (notiline) declaration and check for debug > 3 there 23:51:37 coz this is way cool, at least i could envision trying to use the stepper now 23:51:51 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-74-67-199-254.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:54:30 you can create a new package with all functions from CL (defun x (&rest args) (apply #'cl:x args)) 23:54:44 and use this package instead of CL 23:55:21 <_3b> (just remember to use the cl: for hash table test functions) 23:56:07 type names will be a problem as well 23:56:19 _3b: that's a good idea, tell it to Nikodemus, for Automn. I'd appreciate for sure a better debugger in sbcl more than better threading. 23:57:56 *maxm* does not want any solution where you need to change source between debugged and normal versions 23:58:09 rather it work from the declaim (debug) setting 23:58:47 (loop for symbol being the symbol in 'cl when (and (fboundp symbol) (fdefinition symbol)) do (proclaim `(notinline ,symbol)))