00:00:43 gkeith_lt [~gkeith@67.23.204.2] has joined #lisp 00:05:27 -!- antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-2925099284.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:08:59 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:09:21 vaaal [~vaaal@host112-58-dynamic.3-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 00:09:49 first i had lispbox and everyone tells my lispbox is completely out of dead, that is dead etc. etc. 00:09:57 now i've emacsW32+ccl+slime 00:10:06 to me, this new configuration SEEMS THE SAME. 00:10:19 so 00:10:33 who can please explain to me in which part it change? 00:10:52 all of the components are probably newer. 00:10:53 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 00:11:17 vaaal: more people will be able to help you when you hit a problem. 00:11:59 yep but with kinda of problem lispbox should had give to me? 00:12:08 (should had give sounds really bad...) 00:12:17 I have no clue what you're trying to write. 00:12:21 lol. 00:12:39 i'm trying to write that in lispbox i really didn't have problem 00:12:59 i don't want to say that lispbox and the new emacs, the new ccl, the new slime are the same 00:13:07 just want to understand what is different. 00:13:08 -!- Deathaholic [~Mococa@187.59.133.60] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:13:19 You've very lucky, if you never have any problem. 00:13:40 what kind of problem? Crash? Bug? Bad evaluation? 00:13:52 all of these? 00:13:53 sure. 00:14:00 sure is ironic? 00:14:05 no. 00:14:10 no is ironic? 00:14:12 lol 00:14:13 ok 00:15:12 -!- gkeith_lt [~gkeith@67.23.204.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:15:31 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.55.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:15:43 -!- vaaal [~vaaal@host112-58-dynamic.3-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: http://irc2go.com/] 00:17:06 -!- exu0 [~u@dslb-188-105-114-150.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:17:27 zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.55.53] has joined #lisp 00:20:07 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483BEDA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:22:47 -!- ngz [~user@209.141.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:25:05 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-74-67-199-254.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:32:07 zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.34.55.53] has joined #lisp 00:33:08 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 00:33:12 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.14.86] has 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timeout: 260 seconds] 01:39:50 zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.34.55.53] has joined #lisp 01:39:57 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.55.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:41:06 jingtao [~jingtaozf@117.79.232.252] has joined #lisp 01:45:32 -!- fbass [~fbass@75-173-81-122.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:48:06 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.70.89] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 01:48:19 -!- SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@VEROXITY.ipcolo1.SanFrancisco1.Level3.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:55:26 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:56:52 zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.55.53] has joined #lisp 01:59:21 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A578E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:59:47 -!- zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.34.55.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:01:58 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 02:03:23 -!- dsrguru [~dsr@ool-44c78c16.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:04:49 BrokenCog [~bc@ip98-162-173-207.pn.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:18 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.55.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:07:06 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:08:42 ChibaPet [~mason@c-68-58-147-105.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:23 -!- buganini [~buganini@cnmc.tw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:10:09 is there a way to have a macro return multiple forms? 02:10:57 Like in a progn? 02:10:59 kruhft: no. PROGN is usually what you want. 02:11:19 i'm trying to declare a macro that does a declaim before a defun 02:11:27 so it would have to return two forms 02:11:47 i think, but that's why i'm asking 02:12:10 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:12:19 a declaim to declare the type of the function that i'm defining and then the function definition 02:13:50 fihi09``` [~user@pool-96-224-37-89.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:35 seangrove [~user@c-98-248-33-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:52 kruhft: a PROGN would do. 02:17:03 ok, i'll give that a try 02:17:27 -!- fihi09`` [~user@pool-96-224-43-234.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:18:34 works, thanks 02:18:44 i thought declaim could only be done at toplevel 02:19:16 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-181-173.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:44 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.59.201.222] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 02:20:47 Deathaholic [~Mococa@187.59.201.222] has joined #lisp 02:20:50 PROGN preserves toplevelness 02:20:52 fbass [~fbass@75-173-81-122.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:54 -!- fihi09``` [~user@pool-96-224-37-89.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:21:01 that's good to know 02:21:55 that's the difference between progn and e.g. locally or tagbody (: 02:22:13 well, that and the compatibility with local declarations or the go tag support (: 02:26:59 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:28:18 -!- Evanescence [~chris@122.237.4.223] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 02:30:52 -!- pnq [~nick@AC83717F.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:35:15 Evanescence [~chris@122.237.4.223] has joined #lisp 02:36:55 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 02:37:51 PokeTron [~PokeTron@unaffiliated/poketron] has joined #lisp 02:41:27 pnq [~nick@ACA46C28.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 02:44:10 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@c-68-58-147-105.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:45:09 -!- BrokenCog [~bc@ip98-162-173-207.pn.at.cox.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:45:33 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:53:09 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:55:11 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 03:00:37 el-maxo [~max@p5DE8DD11.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:16 isn't macroexpand supposed to complete the macro expansions until there are none left? 03:02:31 i'm using it and it only seems to go down one level in sbcl 03:03:22 kruhft: It doesn't resolve macros in subforms. Is that what you mean? 03:03:27 yes 03:03:37 spradnyesh [~pradyus@117.192.33.69] has joined #lisp 03:03:49 -!- el-maxo_ [~max@p5DE8D0D4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:04:12 isn't it supposed to go down further? 03:04:35 try sb-cltl2:macroexpand-all 03:04:39 -!- syrinx_ is now known as DrunkOrinthologi 03:05:04 there we go 03:05:05 thanks 03:05:24 hypercube32 [~hypercube@231.125.189.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:08:16 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:10:02 nicdev_ [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 03:15:05 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@117.192.33.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:16:40 benny [~benny@i577A10CF.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 03:18:22 Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 03:21:41 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 03:22:58 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:23:35 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[~davidnole@184.152.70.89] has quit [Client Quit] 03:35:53 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.70.89] has joined #lisp 03:37:12 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 03:42:03 -!- Nexxo is now known as elliottcable 03:43:15 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:46:43 mcox [~user@140.253.50.113] has joined #lisp 03:47:26 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 03:47:44 REPLeffect: nice name 03:48:39 Xach: how does a user use the documentation in quicklisp? 03:49:06 -!- Deathaholic [~Mococa@187.59.201.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:54:49 ldh [~ldh@h184-60-28-206.mdsnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 03:56:42 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:58:04 -!- ldh [~ldh@h184-60-28-206.mdsnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:58:31 _class_ [~class@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:18 -!- __class__ [~class@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:01:02 ldh [~ldh@h184-60-28-206.mdsnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:08 -!- ldh [~ldh@h184-60-28-206.mdsnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:02:29 -!- _class_ is now known as __class__ 04:03:00 leo2007: Sorry, I don't know what you mean. 04:03:53 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 04:04:39 Deathaholic [~Mococa@187.59.201.222] has joined #lisp 04:04:53 Xach: how does one make use of http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/UNOFFICIAL/docs/ ? 04:05:48 leo2007: You could read them. 04:07:19 Xach: so documentation will be installed locally by quicklisp? 04:07:26 sounds like a cool feature ;) 04:08:51 -!- hypercube32 [~hypercube@231.125.189.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 04:12:42 -!- doc_who [~doc_who@pool-108-28-6-47.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:14:49 -!- PokeTron [~PokeTron@unaffiliated/poketron] has quit [Quit: 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[~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:25:16 -!- Deathaholic [~Mococa@187.59.201.222] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:26:14 good morning 06:27:01 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-156-210.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:28:43 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:29:55 Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:30:27 -!- eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:31:07 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 06:31:22 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:34:12 since I'm on no SBCL related list yet, in case here is also a good place to suggest it: shouldn't SB-BSD-SOCKETS:SOCKET-ACCEPT method for INET also send the peer's port number as a third value? 06:34:37 this also would not break old code only taking into consideration the two first values imo 06:36:12 -!- mcox [~user@140.253.50.113] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:36:15 cyrillos [~cyrill@swsoft-msk-nat.sw.ru] has joined #lisp 06:36:33 ECL has a compatible sockets layer for which I submitted a diff too, this compatibility would be maintained only if both did it :) 06:37:08 (it's not yet commited in ECL, though) 06:38:15 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:42:02 -!- seangrove [~user@c-98-248-33-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:43:00 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 06:49:05 Demosthenes [~demo@m912d36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 06:49:09 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-132-188-166.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 06:49:09 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-132-188-166.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 06:49:09 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 06:55:32 -!- fbass [~fbass@75-173-81-122.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:02:51 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.116.187] has joined #lisp 07:14:10 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 07:19:31 fbass [~fbass@75-173-81-122.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 07:20:05 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-43-36.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:20:05 -!- insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-43-36.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Changing host] 07:20:05 insomnia1alt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 07:20:26 -!- fbass [~fbass@75-173-81-122.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:21:23 fbass [~fbass@75-173-81-122.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 07:21:45 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA46C28.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:23:34 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:23:34 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 07:24:31 I've used defsystem within an .asd file, and loaded it and all it's dependencies. How do I determine the system's home directory within the package files? 07:33:33 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:34:23 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-54-189.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:35:39 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:39:49 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-87-108.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:40:30 Or, to be more specific, I have a sqlite3 database file I want to load in the same directory as mysystem.asd and package.lisphow do I find that path? 07:41:07 Perhaps truename will be useful? 07:45:01 tempire_: asdf has functions to locate the system definition pathname, and also a function to get paths relative to that 07:45:16 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-148-79.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 07:49:18 ah hah! 07:49:21 asdf:system-source-directory 07:49:22 excellent 07:49:28 e-user [~e-user@nat/nokia/x-tejxyfqfndylxqay] has joined #lisp 07:51:50 tempire_: and asdf:system-relative-pathname 07:53:31 Davidbrcz_ [~david@ANantes-151-1-216-143.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:57:04 ecl errors out here when searching for libssl. how do i figure out where ecl searches for those libraries? i have it installed in /lib/ (but ecl probably doesn't find that cool). can i direct cffi to search in a particular directory? 07:59:26 hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:03:34 tfb [~tfb@80.238.0.145] has joined #lisp 08:08:57 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 08:13:54 gigamonk` [~user@adsl-76-254-18-22.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:15:57 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-64-119-89.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:16:39 ngz [~user@209.141.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 08:17:02 -!- daniel___ [~daniel@p5082BB25.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:17:10 daniel__1 [~daniel@p5082958F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:19:47 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@swsoft-msk-nat.sw.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:19:51 trigen [c1aca602@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.172.166.2] has joined #lisp 08:20:18 -!- ASau [~user@95-27-147-30.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: off] 08:22:05 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:24:10 -!- am0c [~am0c@222.235.49.83] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:25:31 -!- Davidbrcz_ [~david@ANantes-151-1-216-143.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:27:58 i also wonder if there's a way to dictate ecl to compile all currently loaded files and package them. that would be handy for me at the moment. 08:35:42 -!- fbass [~fbass@75-173-81-122.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:35:50 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has joined #lisp 08:48:40 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c1a9a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:50:55 ollkorrekt [~psych069@programmer1.ddns.icon.bg] has joined #lisp 08:56:27 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 08:56:33 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:57:12 Yuuhi [benni@p5483BFB7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:59:28 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@m912d36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:02:23 SuChek [~SuChek@unaffiliated/suchek] has joined #lisp 09:03:54 BrianRice` [~water@97-126-48-96.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 09:03:54 -!- BrianRice [~water@97-126-48-96.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:03:55 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 09:07:11 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:09:18 levi` [~user@c-174-52-219-147.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:09:24 -!- levi [~user@c-174-52-219-147.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:12:10 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 09:12:38 Davidbrcz_ [~david@ANantes-151-1-216-143.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:19:38 -!- jeekl [~crz@unaffiliated/jeekl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:20:23 jeekl [~crz@li272-11.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 09:20:23 -!- jeekl [~crz@li272-11.members.linode.com] has quit [Changing host] 09:20:23 jeekl [~crz@unaffiliated/jeekl] has joined #lisp 09:23:53 Demosthenes [~demo@md12d36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 09:24:51 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 09:27:35 ISF [~ivan@187.106.54.41] has joined #lisp 09:29:07 jtza8-android [~jtza8@41.18.147.33] has joined #lisp 09:30:15 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has quit [Quit: Be back later] 09:31:48 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 09:31:51 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:36:51 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-020-179.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:38:20 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 09:45:38 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.14.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:47:24 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:49:24 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:51:14 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 09:52:02 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:54:45 -!- ngz [~user@209.141.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:55:04 Hi, how can I make a string with \n without using (format nil "~%") ? 09:55:18 daimrod: terpri 09:55:30 daimrod: why don't you want to use format? 09:56:25 anthracite [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/anthracite] has joined #lisp 09:56:56 H4ns: I find it too verbose (split (format nil "~%") str) vs (split "\n" str) 09:57:42 daimrod: the name of the newline character is #\newline, so if your split accepts that, you're good to go 09:57:59 oh my /o\ 09:58:02 thanks :) 09:58:13 daimrod: if it does not, use (string #\newline) 09:58:42 #\newline works, thank you. 09:59:01 daimrod: you're welcome. 10:01:32 Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.15.127] has joined #lisp 10:06:30 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.15.127] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:07:25 zfx [~zfx@mail.inqmobile.com] has joined #lisp 10:07:25 -!- zfx [~zfx@mail.inqmobile.com] has quit [Changing host] 10:07:25 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 10:12:25 -!- Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-16-175.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:18:34 fiveop [~fiveop@p4FCDE855.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:20:34 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:21:52 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 10:25:31 -!- Penten [~user@114.255.149.182] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:25:41 taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 10:27:32 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host245-214-dynamic.7-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:27:33 -!- Davidbrcz_ [~david@ANantes-151-1-216-143.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:27:37 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-132-188-166.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:27:37 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-132-188-166.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 10:27:38 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:31:25 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:33:44 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 10:35:22 hi there - i've written a polynomial calculator (it only does addition, subtraction, multiplication and equality) in eulisp, a Lisp-1 and wanted to know if it was half decent or not http://paste.lisp.org/display/123634 10:35:49 I had to use this language for my course 10:37:52 daedra: out of curiosity  what is the course that mandates the use of eulisp? 10:38:42 I don't want to say for privacy reasons 10:38:49 antoszka: sorry 10:39:55 zfx [~zfx@mail.inqmobile.com] has joined #lisp 10:39:55 -!- zfx [~zfx@mail.inqmobile.com] has quit [Changing host] 10:39:55 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 10:39:58 I could quite easily run some substitutional regular expressions to convert it into clisp :P 10:40:30 daedra: no problem. 10:43:07 Posterdati [~tapioca@host245-214-dynamic.7-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 10:48:54 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:54:42 H4ns` [~user@pD4B9EE1C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:56:00 -!- H4ns [~user@p4FFC8ABD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:56:08 -!- H4ns` is now known as H4ns 10:57:37 Davidbrcz_ [~david@ANantes-151-1-216-143.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:59:45 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:04:18 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 11:05:07 SuChek_ [~SuChek@unaffiliated/suchek] has joined #lisp 11:07:55 -!- SuChek [~SuChek@unaffiliated/suchek] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:08:00 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 11:09:41 -!- Davidbrcz_ [~david@ANantes-151-1-216-143.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:15:38 Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:17:05 -!- jtza8-android [~jtza8@41.18.147.33] has quit [Quit: Bye] 11:18:16 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:18:45 jtza8-android [~jtza8@41.18.147.33] has joined #lisp 11:21:56 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-217-153.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 11:23:20 -!- jtza8-android [~jtza8@41.18.147.33] has quit [Quit: Bye] 11:24:10 jtza8-android [~jtza8@41.18.147.33] has joined #lisp 11:24:22 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:25:21 mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:25:21 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 11:25:21 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 11:26:19 -!- trigen [c1aca602@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.172.166.2] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:27:36 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has joined #lisp 11:28:18 pnq [~nick@ACA28EEC.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 11:28:59 Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-16-175.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:29:34 -!- hba [~hba@187.171.200.6] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:29:36 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.153.206] has joined #lisp 11:33:12 -!- levi` [~user@c-174-52-219-147.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 11:35:26 11:37:18 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 11:40:09 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:41:09 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:47:20 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ovxjrljpwrwgejau] has left #lisp 11:47:35 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:47:51 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 11:50:54 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 11:50:55 peterhil` [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has joined #lisp 11:51:34 nicdev_ [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 11:51:41 ... czy mona odstrzeli PiS? 11:52:42 A dlaczego by nie. 11:53:07 But, you want to write this on #lisp-pl, I think. :) 11:53:20 right, wrong channel 11:53:31 Are you coming to ECLM? 11:53:48 Xach: doubtful. I think antoszka is coming,though 11:54:02 excellent 11:54:05 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has joined #lisp 11:55:59 Yeah, I already got the plane tickets. And mrSpec too. 11:56:40 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@md12d36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:57:29 Interesting, I thought Europeans only took trains. 11:57:40 *Xach* is taking a plane due to the large ocean in the way 11:57:44 hehe 11:57:46 I wish they were cheaper than planes. 11:57:57 Unfortunately not, by a wide margin not. 12:00:05 they are also slower. Europe isn't _that_ small. 12:00:37 But that's the fun part. 12:01:36 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has quit [Quit: Be back later] 12:01:46 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 12:01:51 -!- nicdev_ [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: nicdev_] 12:03:02 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.100] has joined #lisp 12:03:40 urandom__ [~user@p548A4DE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:11 markskil1eck [~mark@host-92-12-31-167.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:57 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:16:27 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-020-179.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:16:35 Xach: nah; these days we mostly take planes, due to very cheap planes and very expensive trains :P 12:17:07 rsynnott: you know that at least part of the price for planes is due to railway lobby? :D 12:17:31 p_l|backup: You mean they'd be even cheaper? 12:18:00 antoszka: yeah 12:18:10 p_l|backup: well, on the other hand, they have a substantial tax advantage on fuel which no-one else has. Whole transport system is full of externalities 12:18:28 rsynnott: commercial buyers pay tax on fuel, iirc 12:22:36 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 12:23:55 zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.49.64] has joined #lisp 12:24:20 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:34:29 blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has joined #lisp 12:36:02 cyrillos [~cyrill@swsoft-msk-nat.sw.ru] has joined #lisp 12:37:55 PokeTron [~PokeTron@unaffiliated/poketron] has joined #lisp 12:38:04 -!- PokeTron [~PokeTron@unaffiliated/poketron] has left #lisp 12:45:53 LiamH [~none@harding.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 12:46:06 rolando [~user@174.20.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 12:46:15 -!- OliverUv [~gandhi@195.159.235.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:47:01 -!- blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:48:08 OliverUv [~gandhi@195.159.235.178] has joined #lisp 12:49:19 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.70.89] has joined #lisp 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13:18:11 -!- Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:18:24 heya, madnificent. 13:18:45 churib2 [~user@95.156.194.105] has joined #lisp 13:19:08 -!- markskil1eck [~mark@host-92-12-31-167.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:20:46 hello Fade 13:21:21 greetings fe[nl]ix 13:22:51 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@swsoft-msk-nat.sw.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:23:58 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 13:25:35 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 13:26:09 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:27:34 -!- DGASAU` [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 13:28:06 DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #lisp 13:28:19 DGASAU`` [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #lisp 13:29:54 -!- DelPuerto [~youguy@131.88.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:30:53 ramusara 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[~bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 14:17:17 Is anyone here familiar with CMUCL/SBCL's serve-event stuff? 14:17:26 -!- Guest77049 is now known as reb` 14:18:15 reb`: I don't know that anyone familiar with it recommends building new programs on top of serve-event. 14:19:01 My question is more about the defaults of socket creation in the sb-bsd-sockets code. 14:19:05 zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.34.49.64] has joined #lisp 14:19:16 ... rather stream creation for socket streams. 14:20:13 I've just spent some time debugging some client socket code ... all worked well untill the code tried to push lots of data through its sockets. 14:21:01 Turns out that usocket creates stream sockets with the default setting of serve-event, which is T. I think that means when there's buffering the code relies on me to call some function periodically. 14:21:21 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.49.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:21:22 ... to flush buffers to sockets that will accept more data. 14:22:06 Anyway, I think the usocket code is wrong to do this. I just don't know why the problem was not discovered by others. 14:22:13 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:22:53 reb`: the serve-event loop is called on almost any (SBCL-controlled) I/O. 14:24:00 Either there's a long-standing but never-before-encountered bug in usocket, or there's a bug in your code. 14:24:54 My code is a client, not a server. It's multithreaded. Lots of threads write RPC data to a bunch of sockets then wait for replies by doing blocking reads. 14:25:09 -!- __class__ [~class@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:25:37 I noticed that some threads were sitting around waiting for data but there was unflushed output in the buffers associated with their sockets. 14:25:40 reb`: and you flush before waiting for replies. 14:25:45 yes 14:26:18 -!- taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:27:24 The SBCL streams code writes all the data it can, but if the kernel fails to accept it all it either waits around and pushes the remaining data (serve-event == nil) or queues the remaining data (serve-event == T). 14:27:59 What I haven't found is the code that comes along later to flush the socket data that was queued up. 14:28:42 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-210-54.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:28:46 I'm presuming that I'm supposed to call some function when idle in order to push the queued data ... at least that's what it seemed like from the documentation. 14:28:56 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:29:15 ... but all my threads are waiting for return RPC data. I have no select loop periodically calling serve-event. 14:30:18 -!- agspathis [~user@ppp-94-64-136-183.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:31:17 Anyway, I changed the usocket code to create sockets with serve-event == NIL and the problem appears to have gone away. 14:31:51 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 14:32:11 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@p4FCDE855.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 14:32:46 __class__ [~class@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:39 do you force- or finish- output? 14:34:34 reb`: just curious: what compiler, platform? usocket from quicklisp? i've been using hunchentoot with usocket for years now and never had problems like these. 14:35:03 *pkhuong* suspects force-output VS finish-output confusion. 14:36:39 none of the codepaths you're exercising are usocket or even socket -specific. 14:37:08 kushal [~kdas@114.143.163.225] has joined #lisp 14:37:08 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.163.225] has quit [Changing host] 14:37:08 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 14:38:25 pkhuong: force-output 14:38:45 you want finish-output. 14:38:52 pkhuong: SBCL 1.50 usocket from CVS, but quite close to quicklisp 14:39:08 ahh, so I'm flushing the wrong way ... 14:39:10 diog3n3s [~mlove@redhook.ngdc.noaa.gov] has joined #lisp 14:39:32 -!- diog3n3s [~mlove@redhook.ngdc.noaa.gov] has left #lisp 14:40:43 Hold on ... the documentation for force-output says it initiates the flush and then return. That sounds like what I want. Whereas finish-outpu waits for all data to be written. 14:40:53 force-output only initiates flushing; there's no real guarantee is to when it'll be done. finish-output only returns once the output buffer has been completely flushed, which is what you want since you'll be blocking for a response anyway. 14:41:19 yes, but in my case the flush never happens. 14:41:37 How can you tell? Maybe it was initiated. 14:41:42 Certainly force-output must cause the flush to happen at some point ... I'm not seeing it. 14:42:19 reb`: i'd not try to argue and use finish-output :) 14:42:24 I can tell that the data was never flushed because I don't see it on the machien I'm sending it to ... after waiting for 10 or 20 minutes. 14:42:29 "The precise actions of these functions are implementation-dependent." I'm fairly certain that, on SBCL, you want finish-output. 14:42:38 oy ... 14:42:48 reb`: in my book, the behavior is broken, but i have been bitten by that, too. 14:43:04 (hunchentoot has, that is *cough*) 14:43:04 When I read the spec, I think force-output == fflush and finish-output == fsync. 14:43:06 H4ns: yeah, it's suboptimal. 14:43:43 pkhuong: "broken" is the word 14:44:10 I'm going to file an SBCL bug. 14:44:33 Thanks! 14:45:13 this reminds me of a discussion with steve haflich about acl's close not signalling an error when the stream could not be flushed. in the end, i gave in and changed my code to flush explicitly before closing. how stupid is that? 14:45:57 H4ns: I actually bind posix functions when I want useful guarantees. 14:45:58 Slime's swank code is full of force-output calls. 14:46:07 ... do I change them all to finish-output. 14:46:16 reb`: do they need to be changed? 14:46:27 I suspect so. 14:48:32 I don't know. But since they don't seem to have triggered any bug in ages, I doubt it. 14:48:47 yeah, slime is bug free! 14:48:48 :) 14:49:03 antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-2925097352.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:49:09 H4ns: free of bugs attributed to finish-output, anyway. 14:49:39 I remember having a slime bug 14:49:59 pkhuong: It is only a problem when the kernel fails to accept socket I/O data. I'm seeing on a couple of threads when each thread writes a few megabytes. 14:50:13 I have hundreds of threads each writing a few meg. 14:50:32 reb`: ...and you don't have any serve-evented loop running. 14:50:36 No one using Slime will see the problem. 14:50:38 right 14:50:47 Why would I? 14:50:56 maybe swank does. 14:51:03 HG` [~HG@p5DC05095.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:51:38 given that force-output is broken on sbcl, it may make sense to change slime not to use it (there is no pressing need anyway) 14:51:58 zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.49.64] has joined #lisp 14:53:03 ISF [~ivan@187.106.54.41] has joined #lisp 14:53:06 Slime calls sys:serve-event on CMUCL and ECL ... not SBCL as far as I can tell. 14:53:38 in what way is force-output broken on sbcl? 14:54:18 Data written to socket streams before the call to force-output is not always flushed. 14:54:21 ah, not sbcl. reb` knows the details. 14:54:38 or whathever. i'll keep quiet now :) 14:54:39 -!- zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.34.49.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:55:36 Inside the streams code the data may be queued. I think everything works OK if the socket stream was created with serve-event==NIL, but that's not the default. 14:55:57 er 14:56:10 reb`: because applications that want to serve-event would be screwed then. 14:56:37 are you sure the data is queued? 14:57:00 oGMo: yes. 14:57:04 pkhuong: k 14:57:05 pretty sure ... never reaches the other end and there are queued data bufferes associated with the stream 14:57:26 serve-event is a mess... 14:57:56 -!- Harag [~Harag@dsl-242-254-64.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:57:57 I'm not unhappy that the SBCL socket code by default setf serve-event==T by default for socket streams. I'm unhappy that usocket uses this default. 14:58:07 s/setf/sets 14:58:41 reb`: quite understandable. 14:59:14 ... my dismay or usocket's code ? 14:59:51 But, then again, that'd be frustrating on single-threaded swank. 15:00:33 i'm not sure what's being used, just looking at sb-bsd-sockets:socket-send doesn't seem to loop to ensure all data gets written, but i'm just glancing at this and don't have the full context of the conversation here :P 15:00:42 -!- ngz [~user@231.179.205.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:01:40 reb`: a flag to disable serve-event--style tomfoolery on platforms that usocket supports would probably be good. 15:01:44 -!- DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Quit: see you later.] 15:03:08 oGMo: I think the essential function is flush-output-buffer in fd-stream.lisp. 15:03:26 if the data doesn't get written, flushing doesn't help 15:03:27 ... search for queue-or-wait. 15:03:39 k 15:04:50 Anyone know who maintains usocket these days? 15:05:09 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-141-208.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 15:05:19 (also it's more useful just to give the package, because you can just hop to the code in slime) 15:05:28 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.106.54.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:06:59 reb`: iolib would probably be more solid, but it's a big package. 15:08:15 pkhuong: I'll check out iolib. Thanks for the suggestion. 15:08:39 reb`: binding to c gives you useful guarantees ;) 15:11:52 rme [~rme@50.43.148.161] has joined #lisp 15:13:55 Any slimv users in the house? 15:15:07 Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 15:15:16 -!- Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 15:18:17 ISF [~ivan@187.106.54.41] has joined #lisp 15:20:03 i'm assuming at least one atm. :) 15:20:08 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-181-173.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Offline] 15:20:20 I've used slimv a little. It was somewhat klunky. 15:20:35 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.207.153] has joined #lisp 15:20:36 loke [~elias@bb115-66-87-235.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 15:21:16 -!- Evanescence [~chris@122.237.4.223] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 15:21:50 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:50 -!- tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:21:54 *JuanDaugherty* guesses it's slime for vi. 15:22:15 littlebobby [~bob@unaffiliated/littlebobby] has joined #lisp 15:23:18 one of the devs that I'm bringing along in the lisp project we're doing here is a rabid vim user. I showed him slimv, and he tried it, but seemed to feel that it didn't fit well with the "mode'd" idiom in vim. 15:23:35 and that's all i know about it. 15:23:46 Is he now an emacs convert? :P 15:24:04 well, he's a slime convert insofar as the repl is concerned. he still edits code in vim. 15:24:10 Yar 15:24:13 *j_king* converted from vim. 15:24:35 I am, I've been using a few emacs-keybinds in the shell for a long time, but I've never got the hang of emacs before I started learning lisp and playing with slime 15:25:05 littlebobby: you use emacs now? 15:25:11 or you still use vim? 15:25:20 and I was surprised when I realized that I've intuitively used C-_ to undo in ipython 15:25:42 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:26:18 Fade: well, I'm primarily learning lisp right now, so I'm only using emacs atm. I'd still use vim for small editing jobs 15:26:37 Fade: but I'm far more inclined now to try emacs with other languages as well of course 15:27:09 *Fade* nods 15:27:40 Fade: What CL do you guys use? 15:28:11 sbcl 15:29:29 -!- nicdev [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:30:01 lundis [~lundis@dyn56-31.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 15:30:16 nicdev [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:21 -!- ollkorrekt [~psych069@programmer1.ddns.icon.bg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:30:22 CCL is nice. 15:30:52 CCL is nice. 15:31:06 sbcl is fast :) 15:31:15 And well documented! 15:31:18 but sbcl runs everywhere we need it to, and it has better compiler output on the speed front. 15:31:23 herbieB: so is ccl 15:31:37 ccl has better thread support and runs on arm 15:31:53 H4ns: Indeeed 15:32:00 ccl is our fallback for porting scenarios to non-posix environments. 15:32:09 ccl has a cocoa bridge that makes it suitable for the development of native mac applications. 15:32:33 didn't we have exactly this conversation about ccl yesterday? 15:32:46 It's a daily ritual, I thought. 15:33:04 are we feature-boasting? 15:33:05 Fade: sbcl doesn't run on arm :p 15:33:25 oGMo: yeah, well, neither does this project need to. :) 15:33:33 Well, the only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about, right? 15:33:48 Fade: heh 15:33:56 ABCL seems to be seeing activity lately too. 15:34:00 anyhow, CCL is basically universally praised 15:34:06 I like it 15:34:46 but sbcl works very well in the domain of this project, and it's the lisp compiler I'm most familiar with, so the decision wasn't particularly difficult to make. 15:35:38 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:36:47 at this point the only free CL implementations that really matter are sbcl and ccl. 15:36:58 -!- e-user [~e-user@nat/nokia/x-tejxyfqfndylxqay] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:37:01 clisp? 15:37:19 it's good for debugging loop! 15:37:41 earlgray [~Adium@195.238.93.36] has joined #lisp 15:37:44 zmv: rarely 15:37:58 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:38:13 clisp is good on architectures that are really marginal, but which have decent C compilers. 15:38:21 Fade: ecl colud matter, if only for its memory footprint 15:38:31 Fade: and libffi and libsegv support. 15:38:33 s/colud/could/ 15:38:35 ecl is nice! 15:38:59 -!- ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:39:00 ecl is interesting, but a lot of code that works in other lisps seems to break on it still. 15:39:29 pkhuong: indeed 15:39:35 *madnificent* would like a nicer creation of binaries from ecl (which includes getting to run external libraries (there's /always/ something that doesn't seem to work) 15:40:32 I sometimes wish everybody was working toward perfecting just one free implementation. 15:41:02 which is, I guess, kind of what SICL is about. 15:41:02 hm... was wondering about ecl last night as I started working on a game in lisp. i'd like to create statically linked binaries when it comes time to distribute. 15:41:26 well, ecl should be able to do that, but I don't personally have much experience trying to do so. 15:41:31 will either be using sdl (likely) or opengl 15:41:41 assuming ecl will load the ancillary systems you need to support the game. 15:41:53 yeah, that's the catch I guess. 15:42:05 i've found it perversely loads more common C systems than it does Lisp systems. ;) 15:42:59 i've read that SDL games are pretty slow when compiled on ecl... no timestamp though, so not sure how relevant that is now. 15:43:22 prototype, then profile. 15:43:24 :) 15:43:37 yeah, it's kind of a far off thing anyway, not too worried. 15:43:49 i only just started blocking out the design in org-mode. ;) 15:48:53 maybe by the time I'm done there'll be one super-compiler able to target all popular consoles and operating systems and mobile devices. :D 15:49:27 you mean the mothership will have returned to earth? 15:50:29 yes! XD 15:51:14 hope springs eternal. 15:52:30 results do not. 15:52:43 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439933.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:52:46 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.49.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:53:52 zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.49.64] has joined #lisp 15:55:43 j_king: ecl is /slow/ compared to sbcl, at least last I checked. 15:56:03 j_king: jsown was IIRC more than an order of magnitude slower on ecl than on sbcl 15:57:08 what kind of garbage collector does ecl use? 15:57:14 madnificent: compiled? 15:58:31 j_king: i think i did. i remember being amazed so i double checked stuff. jsown uses conses quite heavily (not creating them, but it does use them for various things) and it also allows a lot of code-inlining. i guess sbcl just optimized better. 15:58:41 -!- churib2 [~user@95.156.194.105] has left #lisp 15:58:47 j_king: feel free to repeat the experiment though, the code is in quicklisp 15:58:52 Fade: boehm mostly, i believe. 15:58:54 it wouldn't surprise me if python was better at compiling lisp structures to optimised machine codes than gcc was at compiling optimised codes for generated C 15:59:24 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 15:59:49 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-156-210.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:15 Elench` [~user@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 16:01:32 Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 16:03:56 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:03:57 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:06:07 Fade: the difference is much more likely at the translation from dynamically-typed lisp to C-level code. 16:07:16 ahh.. good point 16:08:32 -!- MimiEA [~Mimi@97-88-6-2.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:08:34 lisp seems like a much more interesting thing to translate to in any case 16:08:51 Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:09:18 Fade: some day, there might be a C or LLVM backend for SBCL. 16:10:35 that would be cool. 16:10:59 in the sense that it'd get sbcl onto more architectures. 16:11:08 but python seems to be a pretty good compiler. 16:11:54 what are the primary differences between CCL and SBCL in terms of the way they each deal with threads? 16:12:59 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.49.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:13:14 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:13:31 Fade: it wouldn't help portability that much, but would help with performance of nicely type-inferred code 16:15:58 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:17:54 zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.49.64] has joined #lisp 16:20:35 -!- el-maxo [~max@p5DE8DD11.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:21:56 fbass [~fbass@75-173-81-122.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:22 kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.18] has joined #lisp 16:23:22 pnq [~nick@ACA21E93.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 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[Changing host] 17:01:01 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 17:01:47 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:03:21 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:05:08 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:08:06 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-133.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:08:36 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.15.127] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:15:25 -!- zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.34.49.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:16:16 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has joined #lisp 17:16:54 zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.49.64] has joined #lisp 17:17:36 earlgray [~Adium@195.238.93.36] has joined #lisp 17:17:48 pnq [~nick@ACA284D4.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 17:18:36 -!- foocraft [~ewanas@178.152.107.91] has quit [Quit: default SIGPORTAL handler] 17:18:55 foocraft [~ewanas@178.152.107.91] has joined #lisp 17:19:45 -!- srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:23:28 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:24:57 srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 17:29:44 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.18] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 17:30:33 -!- srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.17/20110420140830]] 17:31:39 zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.34.49.64] has joined #lisp 17:31:48 -!- zhivago is now known as Zhivago 17:34:21 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.49.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:42:25 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 17:44:30 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 17:44:45 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA284D4.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:46:38 how does one convert a path into a string? 17:46:46 clhs namestring 17:46:47 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_namest.htm 17:47:30 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-217-153.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:49:59 hmm 17:50:02 my lisp foo is weak 17:50:33 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:50:50 zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.49.64] has joined #lisp 17:52:12 and paste.lisp.org doesn't seem to be workin 17:52:35 Oh? http://paste.lisp.org/display/123650 has one of your many pastes 17:52:59 correction, the automatic display of the paste in the channel doesn't seem to be working. 17:53:01 my bad. 17:53:06 tempire_: it does. but sometimes it doesn't send the paste here. so you have to go to http://paste.lisp.org/ and search your paste amongst the first ones, and paste the url here yourself. 17:53:11 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has quit [Quit: Be back later] 17:53:17 true enough. 17:53:22 tempire_: (list (asdf:system-relative ...)) might do the trick. 17:53:33 http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/97069/is-there-a-language-offering-lisp-like-macros-with-a-more-complex-syntax 17:53:54 -!- zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.34.49.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:53:59 Dylan. 17:55:02 http://users.rcn.com/david-moon/PLOT/page-1.html 17:55:10 nicdev: you can always make lisp syntax more complex, writing reader macros. 17:55:12 pnq [~nick@AC810ACF.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 17:57:18 kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.18] has joined #lisp 17:57:22 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 17:58:17 pjb: i came across the question, stil learning the language myself 17:58:17 and so far no problems with the syntax. I just wanted to hear about what 17:58:17 ppl here thought about it. are there generally a lot of instances where 17:58:17 you have to work with reader macros or depends on the problem domain? 17:59:23 Xach: I tried that. I'm not sure what to do with the error it gives me. 17:59:29 tempire_: what error does it give you? 17:59:36 pasting... 17:59:39 Anyone here good with SBCL mutex deadlocks? 17:59:44 nicdev: There are two main use case for reader macros: adjusting for user expectations, or creating nifty shortcut to denote your objects. 17:59:44 I thought PLOT would have been more aesthetically pleasing with parentheses. 17:59:58 http://paste.lisp.org/display/123651 17:59:59 nicdev: all the rest is syntactic sugar leading to semicolon cancer. 18:00:12 tempire_: use (list (namestring (asdf:system-relative-... ))) 18:00:52 ah, perfect. I tried namestring, but outside of the list function. 18:00:55 nicdev: notice however that there are already a lot of standard reader macros. You could read only symbols, integers and floating point numbers without them. Not even lists can be read without a reader macro. 18:02:00 doh. but that wouldn't make any sense, given the #'namestring expectation 18:03:49 Here's my deadlock: 18:03:51 WARNING: DEADLOCK CYCLE DETECTED: 18:03:59 # # What is this "GC lock" ... ? 18:05:33 pjb: good to know that 18:06:14 tritchey [~tritchey@rrcs-74-219-95-162.central.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:08:58 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@rrcs-74-219-95-162.central.biz.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:09:12 -!- Davidbrcz_ [~david@ANantes-151-1-215-241.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:09:31 -!- tempire_ [~tempire@pool-72-91-241-135.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Tempire is going dark. Keep it crispy, folks.] 18:10:09 tempire [~tempire@pool-72-91-241-135.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:12 zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.34.49.64] has joined #lisp 18:13:42 zfx [~zfx@host86-145-64-98.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:13:42 -!- zfx [~zfx@host86-145-64-98.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 18:13:42 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 18:14:51 jdz [~jdz@host58-16-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:16:08 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.49.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:16:30 srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 18:18:23 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-064-191-223.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:44 reb`: if you can get stacktraces, that would be useful 18:18:57 (using gdb if all else fails) 18:24:18 -!- srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.18/20110614230723]] 18:24:23 Davidbrcz_ [~david@ANantes-151-1-215-241.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:24:56 guys, what do you use lisp for? 18:25:27 dbushenko: writing software \o/ 18:25:32 :-) 18:25:33 EVERYTHING 18:25:39 OMG... 18:25:52 let me rephrase then... 18:26:00 it's a turing complete general language. 18:26:02 what kind of software do you write with lisp? 18:26:31 I write games and dental insurance software. 18:26:49 dental insurance? 18:26:57 yes. 18:26:57 *schme* mostly writes tools to help him do stuff. 18:27:02 For when your teeth get kicked in. 18:27:05 what UI do you use? 18:27:07 dbushenko: data file processors, search engines, graphics toys 18:27:27 dbushenko: I use web browsers in both cases. 18:27:38 I'm writing a the network backend for a security monitoring product. 18:27:39 it's turned out to be a pretty nice GUI. 18:27:49 -!- zmv_ is now known as zmv 18:27:55 sykopomp, with lispworks? 18:28:07 but i've written web applications, text processing systems, games, irc robots and network daemons in lisp. 18:28:14 Fade, I heard something about that, but I thougt that was written with scheme 18:28:20 reb`: has SWANK stopped responding? 18:28:23 hum? 18:28:35 no, I use SBCL and CCL with hunchentoot for my own projects, and Allegro CL with AllegroServe at work. 18:28:39 dbushenko: You can write whatever you want in lisp. The answer to your question will vary depending on whom you ask. 18:28:58 Alex Ott was one of the main developers of such a system, don't remember how is it called 18:29:16 a more general answer is that lisp can be used to write pretty much anything that can be computed on a von neuman machine. 18:29:26 tfb [~tfb@92.40.176.236.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:29:40 and, if you're at the computer history museum, some machines that aren't von neuman machines. 18:29:42 schme, actually I've asked that because I try to get in which field lisp is the best player 18:29:44 dbushenko: I've recently written an interface to an address verification/standardization and geocoding API, persisting the results in postgres 18:30:05 dbushenko: I'm not sure there is such a field. 18:30:16 that's sad... 18:30:21 not really 18:30:25 it just means it's good at all of them. 18:30:27 :) 18:30:27 there's a lot of lisp code in the financial services sector 18:30:41 there's a lot of lisp code in airline scheduling and reservation systems 18:30:55 Ask not what you can do with Lisp... but what Lisp can do with you! 18:31:01 How many systems? 18:31:07 Fade, is that *just* ITS though? 18:31:18 srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 18:31:18 ITA* 18:31:30 ITA is a company, they have several deployed systems. 18:31:30 dbushenko: I think to find the best language for field X you would have to look at what language has the most libaries and nice toolset for field X. 18:31:37 sykopomp, well, as a language itself -- it's one of the best probably. but even plain old java with all its environment and IDE's beats lisp easily 18:31:43 ChibaPet: FlightCaster or whatever was partly written in Clojure 18:31:51 dbushenko: 'beats' lisp? 18:32:04 i think we're trolled, lads. 18:32:07 lol 18:32:10 I think you're right. 18:32:11 no way, stop 18:32:27 dbushenko: this exact discussion pops up quite frequently. It gets tedious :) 18:32:29 no, let me just listen to you 18:32:29 Fade: embrace 18:32:31 It's a valid argument to make, regarding libraries. 18:32:34 I'll not speak more 18:32:43 -!- earlgray [~Adium@195.238.93.36] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:32:45 that might be for the best. 18:32:54 And that's probably the strongest reason for clojure's popularity. 18:32:56 just give the examples of the systems which you implement with lisp 18:33:25 lisp is probably strongest in server systems. 18:33:31 Of course Java beats Lisp. It's got pointier brackets, makes it easier to inflict damage. 18:33:39 the GUI delivery of executable client programs is a bit fractious. 18:33:43 pinterface, :-) 18:33:46 what kind of answer are you hoping for? We've already given you examples of what we do. 18:33:49 zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.34.49.64] has joined #lisp 18:33:49 dbushenko: I'm a hobbyist hacker. I like lisp because I find it pleasent to work with (also highly annoying in some ways). That's pretty much all. 18:34:13 schme, thanks :-) 18:34:14 Fade: the web is the new executable 18:34:17 Fade: :) 18:34:36 may the beneficient celestial electron hep us all. 18:34:40 Fade, what did you mean with "server technologies"? 18:34:51 dbushenko: Had I been trying to get myself into the industry I guess I'd be doing all my work on C#, scala/java, and python. ;) 18:34:52 did you mean the backends and the business logic? 18:34:57 I hugely dislike web apps. 18:35:10 code that sits on a headless machine in a gray datacenter and just serves client requests. 18:35:19 ChibaPet: you p[robably dislike front end dev 18:35:43 felideon, no, just web applications. 18:35:59 ChibaPet: how are they different than non-web apps? 18:36:02 schme, yeah, I've implemented a couple of web apps with one of lisps and have the examples to compare 18:36:11 -!- Davidbrcz_ [~david@ANantes-151-1-215-241.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:36:16 ChibaPet: except the UI happens to be displayed by a browser. 18:36:21 but what actually I'd like to find -- how I may apply lisp in my projects 18:36:31 dbushenko: use it. 18:36:35 html5 with websockets reminds me of how X11 ought to have been. 18:36:42 -!- jdz [~jdz@host58-16-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:36:45 felideon, they jump through extreme contortions to preserve the illusion of persistent state, while being subject to the vagaries of the browser-de-jeur's capability set. 18:36:57 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.49.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:37:06 -!- zmv_ is now known as zmv 18:37:34 ChibaPet: the contortions are easily abstracted, specially in Lisp 18:37:38 sykopomp: no, it's: Ask not what lisp can do for you, ask what you can do for lisp! 18:38:05 felideon, show me a browser that has some kind of Lisp execution environment built in, and that lives on most peoples' desks. 18:38:33 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has quit [Quit: Be back later] 18:38:47 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.106.54.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:38:52 You might say Javascript is dialect of lisp. ;0 18:38:54 felideon, or even better, don't, because it would probably be even less of a good use of your time than of mine. :) 18:38:57 chiba: Compile to javascript. 18:39:44 and how about search engines? why lisp there> 18:39:44 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:39:46 ? 18:39:47 dbushenko: I'm with j_king here. only way for you to figure out if lisp is of any use to you is to use it. :) 18:40:08 schme, that is exactly what I've done 18:40:13 great. 18:40:16 How is that turning out? 18:40:19 I've implemented a couple of web projects 18:40:22 ChibaPet: as I said, that is front end code, which is what you seem to dislike. eg: writing JavaScript 18:40:41 but I'm completely disappointed and try to get what I've done wrong 18:41:02 dbushenko: What part is disappointing? 18:41:18 felideon: that's because javascript is horrendous. but compiling to js still requires you to understand js... and while I find that acceptable, it's not really optimal. 18:41:19 felideon, no, but I won't presume to change your impression beyond this. 18:41:22 the amount of time which I had to spend for that 18:41:38 dbushenko: I really don't know much about webdev. It seems to me that most of webdev is finding a framework that suits ones needs and plays nice with ones head. 18:41:56 schme, probably yes 18:42:10 (Well. Alright. I'll note that I'm quite fond of Qt, of Tk, and have been fond of other vaguely similar things in the past, all of which blow Javascript and browsers-as-app-platforms to the Hells in which they belong.) 18:42:12 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.207.153] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:42:20 btw, my last project -- a small blog written in Clojure 18:42:31 it is deployed here: clojure-blog.herokuapp.com 18:42:56 dbushenko: this is somewhere I think something like ruby, python, or java-world would have a good advantage. There are a multitude of well supported web frameworks with a lot of hours of coding behind 'em. 18:43:05 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.207.153] has joined #lisp 18:43:26 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.207.153] has quit [Client Quit] 18:43:28 schme: agree. probably I've chosen not the right instrument 18:43:49 that's why I wanted to learn if there is a problem for which lisp suits best 18:44:11 oh 18:44:12 beats me. 18:44:57 dbushenko: lisp is a programming language. it can do pretty much anything you tell it to if you put your mind to it. 18:45:24 j_king: what do you use it for? 18:46:22 dbushenko: games, web apps, javascript. i'm still learning in many regards, but i already prefer it to say Python (which I work in full time and know really well). 18:46:35 or C, C++ for that matter. :) 18:46:46 yep, lisp is much more powerfull 18:46:52 i've even used lisp for parsing jobs and scripts. 18:47:07 which i used to instinctively reach to perl for. 18:47:12 dbushenko: Here's something this line of questioning reminds me off. I work with fitness... we have a whole bunch of different tools available, and people often ask me "what tool is the best for XY" or what training program is best for whatever... the answer pretty much is "the tool that actually helps you get stuff done". 18:47:26 dbushenko: if lisp is not helping you get to where you want then you shouldn't use it :) 18:47:31 j_king: but how is your experience with web apps? wasn't python better here? 18:47:57 ergh 18:48:29 dbushenko: Python is definitely good, but there are lots of things it could do better. concurrency is pretty hard on python. 18:48:57 jdz [~jdz@host240-90-dynamic.54-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:49:00 Python also can't pull off the same dynamic workflow Lisp can. :) 18:49:02 i also find it's object system a little jarring after having been exposed to clos. :) 18:49:19 I'm sorry if I'm looking as a troll. But I've spent a year hacking with mostly Clojure and a little with scheme and CL. I think I've got something wrong and just trying to find the right path 18:49:28 even perl5 has parametric dispatch 18:50:08 dbushenko: I don't think you have gotten anything wrong. For some people lisp is nice, for some it is not. 18:50:37 schme, lisp is great for me. it is definitely the most powerful language I've seen 18:51:06 schme, but as it turned out, I get the job done more quickly with java or ruby because of their rich infrastructure 18:51:09 it's honestly difficult to consider anything else after developing with slime 18:51:30 oGMo, yeah! I hate restarting glassfish.... :-( 18:51:41 pretty much. Then again, I've been writing a bit of raw javascript lately. I can't say it's the end of the world. 18:52:03 drake01__ [~drake01@115.246.133.145] has joined #lisp 18:52:13 -!- drake01__ [~drake01@115.246.133.145] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:52:24 i may be alone in this but i tend to look at lisp as a tool to build the language i need for a problem rather than have all solutions built-in 18:52:25 dbushenko: I've found that CL is pretty good at tasks that are not yet commoditized. 18:52:36 drake01 [~drake01@115.246.133.145] has joined #lisp 18:52:57 Xach, sound interesting! 18:53:25 also lisp imho has better libraries than most .. harder problems solved on a platter rather than yet another website generator 18:53:46 Xach: that's a good way to put it. 18:53:54 zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.34.49.64] has joined #lisp 18:54:11 -!- acelent [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:54:36 Xach, btw, probably that is why Paul Graham was a success with his Viaweb: there were no usable web-frameworks! 18:55:41 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.49.64] has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:55:45 -!- zmv_ is now known as zmv 18:55:55 you don't need to restart glassfish to load your CL into it. 18:55:57 use ABCL. 18:56:32 kill and reload your packages. voila! 18:56:34 dbushenko: one option you have then is to create an equally rich infrastructure for lisp. 18:57:05 ehu, well, I'm fond of Clojure. But that's not what I said. Problem with glassfish appears every time I develop a webapp with J2EE 18:57:29 it simple needs restarting and it takes 2-3 minutes on my machine 18:57:47 whin I use slime, everything runs immediately 18:57:56 even Ruby on Rails can't do this 18:58:58 perhaps you could implement a lisp on top of CLR and interface that with slime somehow. 18:59:01 but you can write the servlets in ABCL. that's my point. 18:59:16 slime runs within glassfish on ABCL. 18:59:19 no problem. 19:01:05 ehu, that's interesting.... 19:01:20 and what about its performance? 19:02:06 btw, I implemented java beans with clojure: http://my-clojure.blogspot.com/2011/06/web-clojure.html 19:02:30 what's your purpose? Heavy calculation? then it's not very good. most other purposes it's very acceptable. 19:02:39 I use ABCL personally with heavy calculations though. 19:02:50 it's just something Java isn't good at. 19:02:51 what I've found is that 1) it is possible and it works; 2) it is not so convenient as with pure java because of not so good integration of the IDE with clojure 19:03:47 ehu, yeah, if the workload of your server is low -- then OK 19:04:01 my russian isn't too great :-) but it looks interesting. 19:04:01 -!- daedra [daedra@unaffiliated/daedra] has left #lisp 19:04:13 ehu: just use google translate ;-) 19:04:57 heh. many intranet applications don't mind the fact that Java may be a bit slower than other technologies. 19:05:14 even with large numbers of users, sysadmins will gladly take the difference. 19:05:25 "just buy another processor" 19:05:42 SuChek [~SuChek@unaffiliated/suchek] has joined #lisp 19:05:43 And, to be honest, with long running programs, it isn't. 19:05:59 well, I'd say that java is one of the fastes platforms with its JIT and runtime optimizers 19:06:19 right. and ABCL is just as long-running as any other servlet. 19:06:54 the only problem that ABCL exhibits more than "normal" java apps is that it encapsulates numbers in objects. 19:07:01 java sure seems to be the best thing for phone apps anyway. 19:07:31 but for many things (database queries, etc) that's no problem. 19:07:51 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has left #lisp 19:07:51 ehu, OK, the point is actually not in performance of the processor but in the performance of a programmer. ABCL is the same as Clojure in its tools 19:08:04 you use emacs and then load your code from the java app 19:08:15 yup. 19:08:16 -!- SuChek_ [~SuChek@unaffiliated/suchek] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:08:35 but, ABCL has a potentially larger set of already-working libraries, 19:08:40 I've tried different workflows and find that way slower than just using a modern IDE which generate the code for you 19:08:43 just because common lisp exists longer. 19:09:07 the only weak point in J2EE is java as it is a very weak language... 19:09:20 until you need something your framework doesn't support. 19:10:06 yep, that's what Xach said :-) 19:11:05 actually Clojure integrates really good with java, no wrappers for java classes needed. I can use Clojure everywhere where I use java. But... 19:11:09 tritchey [~tritchey@rrcs-24-123-215-188.central.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:11:20 the whole technology of J2EE is all about java, OOP and so on 19:11:32 so the clojure way is a bit alien for J2EE... 19:12:36 jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.56] has joined #lisp 19:13:23 right. ABCL is a little bit different in that respect. everything from the java world is wrapped. 19:13:28 schme, about what you've said that I have to reimplement the infrastructure. 19:13:33 it's a design choice from long ago. 19:13:42 schme, I've done a part of that: https://github.com/dbushenko/Clojure-WebApp 19:13:54 it's too much work to get that out of the way any time soon. 19:13:59 it is a small framework which allows implementing webapps in the Ruby on Rails style 19:14:12 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@rrcs-24-123-215-188.central.biz.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:14:34 zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.34.49.64] has joined #lisp 19:14:59 but after implementing this and learning how much effort is needed for simple things I think I have to keep going with implementing servlents or beans with Clojure -- that's easier 19:15:42 ehu, that's why ABCL -- is common lisp, that's the benifit 19:15:54 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:16:17 Clojure is also a great lisp. It is like a scheme on java platform 19:18:34 fantazo [~fantazo@91-115-173-42.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 19:18:41 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.49.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:18:42 clojure is better than scheme. except for the java part. 19:18:53 -!- zmv_ is now known as zmv 19:19:02 GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-88-247.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:18 zmv, that's what I also believe but didn't want start trolling :-) 19:21:58 The problem is that "better" is meaningless without a clear metric. 19:22:11 Perhaps you mean "I prefer clojure to scheme, ..." 19:22:24 Zhivago, :-) 19:23:06 Zhivago, also, my very first question was: what do you use lisp for? I'm trying to find which problems lisp suits best 19:23:37 In my opinion, lisp is best for writing lisps in. 19:23:45 :-D :-D 19:24:00 I've tried to implement scheme with clojure using SICP 19:24:21 and what I could say here: correct! :-) 19:24:42 dbushenko: if you want scheme I think you could check out ironscheme (or what it is called these days). Should give you a good set of .Net libraries to go with it. 19:25:22 schme, no, I'm not fond of scheme. IMHO clojure has better semantics 19:25:33 ok 19:25:53 but the problem for both of them is: traditional languages are easier to use with their frameworks than lisps 19:26:03 doesn't matter whether it is Clojure or IronScheme 19:27:58 I fail to see the problem :( 19:28:09 -!- jiacobucci [~jiacobucc@gw-asdl.ae.gatech.edu] has left #lisp 19:28:30 schme: let me explain a bit 19:28:59 I try to use Clojure for J2EE development. I implement java classes with Clojure and so on 19:29:18 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 19:29:25 and the programming workflow is longer than if I've used pure java 19:29:32 ok 19:29:38 have you tried asking #clojure ? 19:29:42 bcs the IDE generates most of the code and helps me not to make mistakes 19:30:01 schme, :-) 19:30:08 OK, thank you guys 19:30:27 I think I have just to keep going on with what I'm doing with lisp 19:31:03 cools. 19:31:47 personally I find the VS2010 IDE for F# and msdn "man pages" and the workflow there much superior to my lisp + slime + hyperspec experience. 19:32:07 But lisp is much more pleasent to me regardless. 19:32:13 yep, it is so! bcs VS has native integration with F#! 19:32:31 tritchey [~tritchey@rrcs-74-219-95-162.central.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:33:09 dbushenko: Why are you so obsessed with lisp? :) 19:33:24 but even if I had really good integration of Clojure with Netbeans or Eclipse -- I can't substitute emacs 19:33:57 Haven't really used those. but atleast for VS2010 I'll agree that emacs.. is nicer in many many ways. 19:33:58 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: zzz] 19:34:00 schme, it is the most expressive language I've ever saw 19:34:19 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@rrcs-74-219-95-162.central.biz.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:34:20 -!- drake01 [~drake01@115.246.133.145] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:34:23 java is ugly, I hate it 19:34:29 no, I HATE IT!!! 19:34:41 Please be hateful more quietly. 19:34:46 sorry 19:34:48 schme: I'm glad you enjoy recompiling the entire project for 1 line of code. but yeah you might not even notice it as your trigger finger on F5 is muscle memory by now 19:34:58 drake01 [~drake01@115.246.133.145] has joined #lisp 19:35:08 zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.34.49.64] has joined #lisp 19:35:11 felideon: What? 19:35:47 schme: you said you enjoyed the workflow in Visual Studio 19:35:54 schme: how can you enjoy such torture 19:36:27 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.40.176.236.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:36:33 felideon: Yes, I find it a much nicer environment. I have no idea how this brought you to the conclusion that I would be hitting F5 or recompiling entire projects all the time. 19:36:50 jiacobucci [~jiacobucc@gw-asdl.ae.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 19:36:54 schme: I am unaware of incremental compile in VS 19:37:03 Xach: how would you say Lisp fares when a task -has- become commoditized, in your experience? 19:37:14 felideon: ok. 19:37:25 zfx [~zfx@host86-145-64-98.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:37:25 -!- zfx [~zfx@host86-145-64-98.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 19:37:25 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 19:37:25 schme: is there? 19:37:54 felideon: fwiw, I bet we do more full recompiling here than what some static languages do. 19:37:55 felideon: well, I assume you have to relink the whole thing, but presumably only modified files need to be compiled to object files 19:38:10 (assuming C/C++; no idea how C# compilation works) 19:38:11 felideon: Well first of all I rarely ever use it. So I don't see why it would be ingrained in my muscles. And yes, it is quite possible to just mark an expression and evaluate a single one. 19:38:24 sykopomp: that's because we're using Allegro's project manager, no? 19:38:47 felideon: partly. It's also partly a side-effect of an application that makes extremely heavy use of macros for dynamic stuff. 19:38:54 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.49.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:39:05 sykopomp: indeed 19:39:06 Lisp isn't a magic button that you push to get interactive workflows. 19:39:15 -!- zmv_ is now known as zmv 19:39:40 schme: if you like Visual Studio you should try AllegroCL 19:39:40 sykopomp: seems like other languages have an advantage in variety and completeness of off-the-shelf solutions 19:41:02 -!- foocraft [~ewanas@178.152.107.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:41:13 (although i haven't tried the LispWorks or CCL IDE) 19:41:14 felideon: I don't remember the exact keys to hit now. But I am sure you can find it all. put something like let foo = 1 in your code page mark it and eval it, then type "foo" in the interaction window and see it pop out 1. then change your code to let foo = 2 and it's all good. without recompiling the whole code. you just evaluate the expression you marked. 19:41:35 schme: what about an ASP.NET application? 19:41:41 felideon: what about it? 19:42:00 schme: you have to redeploy everything 19:42:04 schme: In Emacs I C-c C-c a function and hit refresh in the browser. 19:42:10 and it will take a couple of minutes 19:42:30 dbushenko: well I have never used APS.NET so I have no idea. 19:42:38 schme: in Visual Studio I had to Stop the runner, edit, and re-run the project 19:43:12 schme: the sad truth is that ASP.NET programming workflow is a torture. But at last you get the job done... 19:43:24 felideon: Ok. I have no idea about that. 19:43:33 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-133.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:44:10 schme: so what exactly have you worked on in VS? CLI program, WPF? 19:44:11 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:44:28 Given enough time, I'm sure people can complete moderately-sized projects even with Java. I know it's a bit mind-bending. 19:44:39 felideon: I just did some basic F# opengl game. 19:44:40 schme: I dont think this workflow is unique to ASP.NET, but maybe it's just pretty bad in ASP.NET 19:44:47 well, I've got rid of .Not when I developed an app for Sharepoint 2007. When I wanted to see my changes working each time I had to wait 7-10 minutes while the project was being redeployed and the sharepoint restart 19:44:58 schme: ah gotcha, maybe things are better in F# land. 19:45:02 felideon: Uh. 19:45:17 schme: I was thinking C# projects. 19:45:18 felideon: "personally I find the VS2010 IDE for F# and msdn "man pages" and the workflow there much superior to my lisp + slime + hyperspec experience." ? 19:45:40 indeed. 19:45:47 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-141-208.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:46:02 I found C# pretty annoying to play around with last time I checked it out. 19:46:51 I'm glad they didnt make it too bad for F# 19:47:14 well it's more the language itself I found highly annoying, so I dunno. 19:47:39 beats me why they didn't write that ASP.NET in a way that allowed for neater interactive development. 19:47:52 but back to lisp anyway. 19:50:30 -!- elliottcable is now known as areacable 19:52:10 Organometallica [~Jeremy@henle2.scs.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 19:52:52 -!- joebo [ccd2fc4a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.204.210.252.74] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:52:53 schme: it's just the nature of the languages 19:54:33 zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.34.49.64] has joined #lisp 19:54:33 -!- zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.34.49.64] has quit [Client Quit] 19:54:46 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-064-191-223.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:55:51 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.49.64] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:56:20 -!- areacable is now known as elliottcable 19:56:35 felideon: k. 19:56:41 felideon: this asp.net looks insanely boring. 19:56:58 it's just webstuff! 19:58:02 setmeaway [~setmeaway@183.106.96.61] has joined #lisp 19:58:06 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@183.106.96.61] has quit [Client Quit] 19:58:16 setmeaway [stemearay@183.106.96.61] has joined #lisp 19:58:20 -!- setmeaway [stemearay@183.106.96.61] has quit [Client Quit] 19:58:29 zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.49.64] has joined #lisp 20:00:48 schme: What did you expect? 20:01:55 felideon: Having not looked at it before I had no expectations of any sort. 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[~chatzilla@cpe-076-182-089-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:45:34 -!- LiamH [~none@harding.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:46:55 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A4DE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:47:30 urandom__ [~user@p548A4DE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:17 clsimons [~csimons@65.122.158.192] has joined #lisp 21:50:04 When a problem can be solved recursively using an 'accumulator' with an auxiliary function (or optional arguments) or without using such a parameter, which one is considered more elegant (or better in some other respect) and why? 21:50:45 clsimons: you need to learn about tail recursion. 21:50:59 -!- gigamonk` [~user@adsl-76-254-18-22.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 21:51:03 Hello, Dragons! 21:51:03 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-18-22.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 21:51:09 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-18-22.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:30 I understand the concept of tail recursion (not having anything left to do after the recursive call so that the activation frame of the next call can replace the current one rather than adding onto the stack). 21:51:41 On SBCL I keep getting this error registering # as SB-GROVEL 21:51:42 Fatal SIMPLE-ERROR: The loaded code expects an incompatible layout for class SB-PRETTY:PRETTY-STREAM. 21:51:42 21:51:42 21:51:57 shameless plug: any comments on our project http://www.coretal.net are welcomed! 21:52:53 mon_key: image/contrib mismatch, looks like. 21:53:28 An example here: http://cl1p.net/acc-vs-nonacc/ 21:54:27 If you want suggestions on Scheme style #scheme might be more on point. 21:54:30 pkhuong hrmm it happens in a makefile i built for use with buildapp 21:54:38 clsimons: er, that was to you. 21:54:51 Ah, I see. Are you Peter Seibel, by the way? 21:55:02 For historical reasons Common Lispers have seized control of the #lisp name. 21:55:06 Yes, I am. 21:55:07 clsimons: but the accumulator trick is usually exploited to avoid things like appending to lists. 21:55:28 pkhuong: If i rm -rf the fasl cache the problem goes away. 21:55:58 Awesome; you are like a celebrity to me. I loved PCL and C@W! Thanks for both of those! 21:56:06 pkhuong: I see, to achieve tail recursion? 21:56:46 clsimons: glad you liked them! 21:56:47 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@static-50-43-53-7.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:47 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@static-50-43-53-7.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:56:47 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 21:56:51 and I'm getting it on both 1.0.47.1 and 1.0.49.65 21:56:59 hussaibi_ [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #lisp 21:57:00 clsimons: avoiding appends is higher on the list than tail recursion. 21:57:06 zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.49.64] has joined #lisp 21:57:15 -!- hussaibi [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:57:39 pkhuong: Does append entail an O(n) operation or something that is undesirable? 21:57:41 And sometimes the accumulator trick is used to allow tail recursion, no? E.g. the tail recursive FIB 21:57:44 clsimons: yes. 21:58:11 gigamonkey: tail-recursive fib is more about linear VS exponential time ;) 21:58:54 DARUDE [~DARUDE@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 21:59:08 pkhuong: yes, but the trick is to use an accumulator, right? 21:59:13 ISF [~ivan@187.106.54.41] has joined #lisp 21:59:27 -!- zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.34.49.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:59:40 gigamonkey: I'd say the trick is to remember the last 2 values, actually. 22:01:53 but yeah, it's pretty hard to do non-trivial work with tail-recursion but no accumulator (in a way, we can see the accumulator as a specialised representation of the continuation, in continuation-passing style). 22:02:26 -!- anthracite [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/anthracite] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:02:28 taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:30 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-167-20.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:04:13 -!- fbass [~fbass@75-173-81-122.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:04:18 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:04:34 pkhuong: Just perusing your blog and wanted an off-topic opinion on something. I'm about to graduate but have no math background beyond a discrete math survey, one term of calculus, and probably/statistics. If I want to go to grad school and study PL theory and computational theory (and do research eventually), should I take more math before starting graduate CS coursework, and if so, which classes/topics would give me the most bang for my time and buck? 22:05:45 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.49.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:05:46 clsimons: PLT or theory of computation? For some (historic) reason, they're sort of stuck together, but they have very little in common. 22:06:39 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-210-54.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:06:55 For ToC, it depends on what you want to do, but things like real analysis and formal logic will be useful, if only because of the proof techniques. 22:09:17 FWIW, I [thoughly speaking] double majored in math and CS and found the added value of math courses (compared to just reading books and papers and working things out by myself) usually greater than that of CS courses. Of course, that's probably different from person to person. 22:10:12 pkhuong: More PLT, I think. Yeah, I've thought about just trying to study from Dover books, but honestly I probably don't have the motivation to work the exercises as rigorously as I would in a class. 22:11:55 setmeaway [stemearay@183.106.96.61] has joined #lisp 22:12:50 Any opinions on good grad schools for PLT without crazy admissions standards? I have a 4.0 but my CS program isn't very rigorous, so I think that will hurt me. I'm trying to do some undergrad research/independent study these last two terms and I think that will help, although the faculty at my school are more into AI and SEng and evolutionary computation. I'm thinking about IU, Utah, and Northeastern; I think they all have good PL research faculty and wo 22:13:08 No clue, seriously. 22:13:11 Don't go to IU. 22:13:18 Indiana is a cesspit. 22:13:29 UIUC, though... 22:13:33 -!- dlila [~dlila@CPE0014d1c9243c-CM001bd71cede2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:13:40 Northeastern is your best bet. 22:14:58 If you travel to the various schools, keep your nose open as you traverse Indiana. The factory pollution and the fact that the cars don't get tested for safety or emissions compliance hits you like a wall. 22:15:12 depends on what you want to do, really. Even within "PLT", you have type systemsy stuff, verification/modeling, compily compiler (i.e. make things go fast/consume little energy, etc), etc. 22:16:02 -!- bandu [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:16:36 Does Universite de Montreal accomodate anglophones :) , or is that only McGill and Concordia? 22:18:01 There are accomodations (you can usually present your stuff and submit coursework and theses in english, for instance), but students are expected to have a basic level of French. 22:18:05 ChibaPet: I have family close to IU, so I would have free board and cheap tuition even without any awards, so that is a plus there. NEU is the most expensive of the three by far 22:18:48 -!- pnq [~nick@AC810ACF.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:19:25 clsimons, these are factors, sure - the environmental negligence is more than I can bear, is all. (I'm not not-far-from-NEU, but I'm presently living in the smog-filled heart of Indiana.) 22:19:35 (I'm *from* not-far...) 22:21:00 Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:22:28 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-218-205-165.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:41 -!- jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.56] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:22:54 I think Northeastern has the best reputation, in any event, of the bunch. Plus, their internship model is pretty nice. 22:22:56 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.70.89] has joined #lisp 22:23:01 -!- foocraft [~ewanas@78.101.30.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:23:47 But certainly visit them all and pick the one that strikes you as the most interesting and useful! 22:24:45 Will do; I am going to be applying to all of them within the next month (the application deadlines for Fall 2012 start dates is coming up pretty quickly), and so hearing back from all the school may constrain my choices as well. 22:25:02 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has left #lisp 22:25:49 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c1a9a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:25:59 foocraft [~ewanas@78.101.14.44] has joined #lisp 22:27:10 It always depends on what *you*'d like to work on. I'd worry about the advisor more than the school. Around here, I hear that helps with admissions a lot. 22:29:17 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-218-205-165.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:29:24 Developing a relationship with the faculty before apply? Or just stating a matching interest in your application? 22:29:36 *applying 22:30:41 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:31:30 The latter, here (the former is often infeasible). 22:31:38 MimiEA [~Mimi@97-88-6-2.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:36:46 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:37:17 One last question. I've got the coming Fall and Spring terms to do independent studies. Assuming I've got faculty members interested in working with me to do something PLT related, any ideas/topics for research projects that are in the reach of an undergrad within a single semester yet would be impressive for admissions boards (I ask since my school's faculty aren't really into PLT and might not be tracking developments there)? 22:37:46 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC04D85.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: HG`] 22:38:20 clsimons: not my domain, really. But whatever you can come up with in 2 semesters, part time, it's going to suck anyway ;) 22:39:28 the haskell or ML crowd might be helpful, or ##systems, if you're into compilers that make things go fast. 22:39:32 Heh, yeah, that is what I fear. All the admissions websites say they look for "research potential" so I am trying to focus on putting something together to show that. 22:39:44 j ##systems 22:39:48 Er, sorry. 22:40:28 HG` [~HG@p5DC04D85.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:07 -!- SuChek [~SuChek@unaffiliated/suchek] has left #lisp 22:42:31 sral [cfed4bef@gateway/web/freenode/ip.207.237.75.239] has joined #lisp 22:44:01 Alright, I will check that stuff out. Thanks for the help and converstaion. 22:46:15 pkhuong: is hash-table thread safe in sbcl 1.0.50? 22:46:32 v0|d: define thread-safe 22:46:45 pkhuong: can i do remhash in two thread at the same time. 22:47:02 no. 22:47:24 pkhuong: so i need explicit locking? 22:47:32 or a :synchronized hash table. 22:47:48 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-132-188-166.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 22:47:48 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-132-188-166.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 22:47:48 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 22:47:51 pkhuong: oh what's that 22:48:21 google for "sbcl hash-table synchronized". 22:48:33 -!- DARUDE [~DARUDE@76.73.16.26] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)] 22:50:45 pkhuong: thanks, i've got it in the source. 22:51:03 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 22:51:31 -!- clsimons [~csimons@65.122.158.192] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:51:47 zfx- [~zfx@host86-145-64-98.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:55:15 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:58:21 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-42-102.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:58:21 -!- insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-42-102.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Changing host] 22:58:21 insomnia1alt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 23:00:56 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:00:56 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 23:02:03 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:02:26 doc_who [~doc_who@pool-108-28-6-47.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:59 Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.15.127] has joined #lisp 23:07:21 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:07:58 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-72-226-124-205.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:08:44 -!- hussaibi_ [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:09:52 PokeTron [~PokeTron@unaffiliated/poketron] has joined #lisp 23:10:02 -!- PokeTron [~PokeTron@unaffiliated/poketron] has left #lisp 23:10:27 Evanescence [~chris@122.237.5.55] has joined #lisp 23:12:26 hypercube32 [~hypercube@231.125.189.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:15:29 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 23:15:33 -!- Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:17:57 bandu [kvirc@pool-71-164-242-237.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:57 -!- bandu [kvirc@pool-71-164-242-237.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:17:57 bandu [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 23:19:30 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 23:19:44 mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:44 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:19:44 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 23:20:33 -!- ngz [~user@209.141.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:21:51 -!- z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:26:20 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:26:24 Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 23:29:12 what is the idiom for setting an asdf-output-translations in ones .sbclrc? 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