00:02:43 -!- Guest35098 [~Telefonic@187.10.42.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:03:32 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-76-143.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:05:03 -!- OliverUv [~gandhi@195.159.235.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:07:51 -!- zmv__ [~Telefonic@187.10.42.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:08:17 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:10:00 zmv__ [~Telefonic@187.10.42.31] has joined #lisp 00:10:30 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-98-118.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:54 Deathaholic [~Mococa@187.59.130.251] has joined #lisp 00:12:01 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 00:15:48 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-98-118.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:18:07 kleppari_ [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 00:19:01 DelPuerto [~youguy@90.162.153.240] has joined #lisp 00:21:10 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:23:25 zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.10.42.31] has joined #lisp 00:23:52 -!- zmv_ is now known as Guest82431 00:25:43 -!- Guest82431 is now known as zmv 00:26:26 -!- zmv__ [~Telefonic@187.10.42.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:29:11 -!- DelPuerto [~youguy@90.162.153.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:29:26 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.14.86] has joined #lisp 00:30:03 xxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.14.36] has joined #lisp 00:31:32 Hunden [~Hunden@e180103219.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 00:32:21 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-013-150.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:33:56 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.14.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:36:03 -!- Deathaholic [~Mococa@187.59.130.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:38:40 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-84-187.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:06 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.10.42.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:40:45 zmv [~Telefonic@187.10.42.31] has joined #lisp 00:41:11 -!- zmv is now known as Guest7867 00:45:44 zmv__ [~Telefonic@187.10.42.31] has joined #lisp 00:47:18 -!- SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@VEROXITY.ipcolo1.SanFrancisco1.Level3.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:47:31 Gymer [46b3a543@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.179.165.67] has joined #lisp 00:47:36 Hey? 00:47:57 -!- zmv__ is now known as zmv 00:48:03 -!- Guest7867 [~Telefonic@187.10.42.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:48:15 I know I shall not ask to ask a question, but i waste keystrokes if no one's awake. 00:48:28 *zmv* is awake. 00:48:55 I couldn't find the right room so i'll ask here: How do you beat The Sims? 00:49:05 *Gymer* never found out, come to think of it 00:49:11 ... 00:49:13 hba [~hba@187.171.206.52] has joined #lisp 00:49:15 pnq [~nick@AC813EDF.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 00:49:21 This is the wrong room to ask that. 00:49:39 games are programmed with lisp though? 00:49:47 Some games. 00:51:03 Gymer: #lispgames is for those of us who spend too much time writing them in Lisp. :) 00:52:20 There's been some time since I last joined #lispgames. 00:56:15 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-67-180-32-11.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:00:22 frodef: multiple entry points are a really nice idea. I think if I were to start a lisp from scratch, I'd do that even moe aggressively, and move *all* the argument parsing/type checking code in dynamically-generated stubs. 01:04:01 -!- lbc [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:04:08 -!- Gymer [46b3a543@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.179.165.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:04:39 That may be the record for strangest non-troll-or-confused-person question asked in #lisp. 01:05:19 Funny, though! 01:05:25 if it wasn't troll-p, that is :) 01:06:03 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-84-187.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:06:17 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-132-164.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:49 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-132-164.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:15:11 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-154-232.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 01:17:56 MeanWeen 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timeout: 276 seconds] 01:51:28 -!- Siliconjesus [~Jeremy@henle2.scs.uiuc.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:53:50 -!- MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:56:37 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 01:58:49 -!- pavelludiq [~pavelludi@87.246.58.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:01:14 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-159-157.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:24 doc_who [~doc_who@pool-108-28-6-47.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:08 -!- urandom_ [~user@p548A5F9D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:07:37 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-58-73.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:07:47 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-181-173.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:03 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.14.36] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:09:05 xxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.14.36] has joined #lisp 02:10:09 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-159-157.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:10:51 Siliconjesus [~Jeremy@host-8-174.ilcu3rd.clients.pavlovmedia.com] has joined #lisp 02:11:35 pavelludiq [~pavelludi@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 02:11:43 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:12:38 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 02:15:05 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.14.86] has joined #lisp 02:18:12 -!- xxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.14.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:21:50 xxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.14.36] has joined #lisp 02:24:58 scottj [~scott@206.212.250.58] has joined #lisp 02:25:11 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.14.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:25:37 if you don't (ql:add-to-init-file) then how do you load quicklisp in a new session? 02:26:06 -!- Hunden [~Hunden@e180103219.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:26:19 By loading the setup.lisp file. 02:27:17 http://paste.lisp.org/display/123563 02:27:22 Here is how I do it. 02:27:52 make-pathname* is the same as make-pathname, but with some patch for some implementation... 02:28:53 -!- dnolen_ [~davidnole@pool-68-161-130-84.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen_] 02:28:59 Notice that you can easily have several quicklisp installations, and choose one or the other by loading the right setup.lisp. 02:31:54 mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-076-182-089-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:32:48 pjb: thanks 02:39:10 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-58-73.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:42:50 ISF [~ivan@187.106.54.41] has joined #lisp 02:45:08 -!- xxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.14.36] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:45:09 -!- pavelludiq [~pavelludi@87.246.58.193] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:45:15 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.14.36] has joined #lisp 02:48:33 xxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.14.86] has joined #lisp 02:52:58 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.14.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:53:11 huangho [~vitor@200.203.58.38] has joined #lisp 02:54:10 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:55:00 -!- foocraft_ [~ewanas@78.101.60.164] has quit [Quit: default SIGPORTAL handler] 02:55:21 -!- hypercube32 [~hypercube@231.125.189.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:57:17 Axioplase [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 03:02:33 el-maxo [~max@p5DE8ED84.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:19 -!- el-maxo_ [~max@p5DE8C7CC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:07:46 -!- ympbyc [~ympbyc@122-57-179-116.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:10:20 Navarr [~navarr@ec2-174-129-205-205.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 03:10:26 (I'm just going to leave this here. 03:10:56 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-100-78.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:59 benny [~benny@i577A79DD.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 03:13:52 -!- pinterface [~pinterfac@173-20-55-85.client.mchsi.com] has left #lisp 03:14:35 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.14.36] has joined #lisp 03:16:36 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-100-78.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:17:15 -!- xxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.14.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:17:23 xxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.14.86] has joined #lisp 03:17:42 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-bkpjpnkomzszlugw] has joined #lisp 03:17:42 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-bkpjpnkomzszlugw] has quit [Changing host] 03:17:42 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 03:18:37 -!- rolando [~user@169.166.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:18:58 xxxyyy2 [~xyxu@58.41.14.86] has joined #lisp 03:18:58 -!- xxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.14.86] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:20:18 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.14.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:23:27 -!- xxxyyy2 [~xyxu@58.41.14.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:23:34 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:25:54 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-74-67-199-254.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:27:21 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.15.253] has joined #lisp 03:30:11 xxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.15.253] has joined #lisp 03:33:46 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.15.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:34:30 tsanhwa [~user@61.129.42.97] has joined #lisp 03:35:53 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-deyludoewdcjppbh] has joined #lisp 03:36:00 spradnyesh1 [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-frnssfwplyldfpxl] has joined #lisp 03:36:35 -!- spradnyesh1 [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-frnssfwplyldfpxl] has left #lisp 03:36:50 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-deyludoewdcjppbh] has quit [Client Quit] 03:37:19 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-bdmtkjiwhwbpnacg] has joined #lisp 03:39:12 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:41:43 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-67-180-32-11.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:48 leo2007 [~user@114.247.10.77] has joined #lisp 03:52:16 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:53:59 dnolen_ [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 03:55:09 -!- leo2007 [~user@114.247.10.77] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 03:56:07 drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 03:56:13 leo2007 [~leo@114.247.10.77] has joined #lisp 03:56:25 GlandeGrande [~usuario@189.220.55.78.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #lisp 03:56:27 I was at my surburban grocery store today, buying some powdered drink mix and this she rilla approached me and opened her rubber lips and axed me " what flavor of dis Kool Ade does these chrillrens like dese dayz"? 03:56:27 I looked right at her and said " I understand niglets still perfer grape drank" and started to walk away. 03:56:27 Her jaw hit the floor, her lips were flapping ( she was so mad no words were coming out! ) and her head started bobbin up and down like she was giving a $5 blow job. 03:56:29 I was in the next aisle when I heard her go into her Stage 5 chimpout about "honkey muffafuckka done dissed me " and she went on and on. 03:56:33 I bet she doesn't get that kind of special treatment in her local hood likka store 04:05:25 pinterface [~pinterfac@173-20-55-85.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 04:06:00 -!- pinterface [~pinterfac@173-20-55-85.client.mchsi.com] has left #lisp 04:06:25 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:06:50 -!- ecraven [~user@140.78.42.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:07:53 -!- huangho [~vitor@200.203.58.38] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:18:41 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633459.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:23:03 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:23:37 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 04:25:52 -!- GlandeGrande 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[~xyxu@58.41.13.78] has joined #lisp 05:15:01 -!- srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 05:15:46 xxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.14.86] has joined #lisp 05:18:09 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:18:38 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.13.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:19:13 -!- leo2007 [~leo@114.247.10.77] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 05:20:00 -!- xxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.14.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:21:24 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.14.86] has joined #lisp 05:22:00 xxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.3.17] has joined #lisp 05:23:15 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has joined #lisp 05:23:33 -!- lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:24:27 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:25:15 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@ip68-109-29-26.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:25:24 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.14.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:25:24 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:26:04 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@ip68-109-29-26.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:27:09 fiveop [~fiveop@p4FCDE8B9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:28:37 -!- xxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.3.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:33:32 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 05:36:41 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 05:37:34 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 05:37:42 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: "[quote]" - [supposed author of quote]] 05:37:44 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-154-98.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:27 tgrr [~tgrr@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 05:40:29 hello 05:41:13 is there an easy way of removing both the keyword and it's value from a list? '(1 2 :foo bar 3) -> '(1 2 3) 05:42:06 should return a new list 05:42:19 remf, I think. 05:43:37 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.14.86] has joined #lisp 05:45:07 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 05:46:54 lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 05:47:29 it seems that remf cant do that 05:47:35 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@ip68-109-29-26.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:48:58 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@ip68-109-29-26.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:52:45 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:52:53 I did it with loop 05:56:37 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-104-117.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:56:55 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.14.86] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:57:35 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.14.86] has joined #lisp 05:59:20 pavelludiq [~pavelludi@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 06:04:51 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 06:12:43 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.137.91] has joined #lisp 06:18:14 waaaaaargh_ [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d87e2d0.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:22:00 -!- waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d87f07f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:25:05 DelPuerto [~youguy@55.Red-217-125-255.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:26:52 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:26:59 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:27:53 good morning 06:29:24 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:29:30 -!- Evanescence [~chris@122.237.3.129] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 06:30:39 jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-145.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:32:48 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-eseifisylutvsauz] has joined #lisp 06:35:04 -!- DelPuerto [~youguy@55.Red-217-125-255.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 06:35:36 DelPuerto [~youguy@55.Red-217-125-255.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:38:07 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-006-040.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:38:08 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.106.54.41] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 06:41:22 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@ip68-109-29-26.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 06:43:53 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@ip68-109-29-26.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:44:38 mcox [~user@140.253.50.113] has joined #lisp 06:46:53 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 06:47:35 ecraven [~user@140.78.42.213] has joined #lisp 06:48:32 -!- DelPuerto [~youguy@55.Red-217-125-255.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:48:43 DelPuerto [~youguy@55.Red-217-125-255.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:48:49 Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-210-180.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:49:33 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-145.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:49:47 I have specified a logical pathname for the location of an ASDF system, however, when calling (ASDF:SYSTEM-SOURCE-DIRECTORY "system-name") it returns a physical pathname. Is there a way to return the logical one? 06:51:02 -!- seangrove [~user@c-98-248-33-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:52:32 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 06:54:07 -!- DelPuerto [~youguy@55.Red-217-125-255.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 06:54:27 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 06:59:06 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-210-180.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:59:22 Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 06:59:55 sellout [~Adium@195.91.109.215] has joined #lisp 07:03:39 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 07:04:09 jingtao [~jingtaozf@117.79.232.151] has joined #lisp 07:07:22 jyfl987 [~jyf@unaffiliated/yunfan] has joined #lisp 07:07:48 hello, i am learning scheme, may i ask question in this channel? 07:08:05 jyfl987: #scheme is probably better 07:08:14 schme: ok 07:08:19 -!- jyfl987 [~jyf@unaffiliated/yunfan] has left #lisp 07:08:58 -!- pavelludiq [~pavelludi@87.246.58.193] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:09:22 trigen [c1aca602@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.172.166.2] has joined #lisp 07:12:14 -!- mcox [~user@140.253.50.113] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:15:02 e-user [~e-user@nat/nokia/x-bmcmhcrmmvvphljc] has joined #lisp 07:15:52 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:19:29 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-46-38.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:20:29 Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-210-180.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:21:02 -!- pnq [~nick@AC813EDF.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:21:14 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-132-188-166.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 07:21:14 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-132-188-166.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 07:21:14 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 07:23:49 seangrove [~user@c-98-248-33-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:24:16 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 07:25:52 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:27:45 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-106-253.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:27:45 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-106-253.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Changing host] 07:27:45 insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 07:33:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:34:40 gravicappa [~gravicapp@p57A4060E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:38:44 -!- tgrr [~tgrr@76.73.16.26] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)] 07:39:45 kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-23-172.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 07:41:21 -!- kennyd_ [~kennyd@93.138.214.239] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:47:03 funny, there is no user "lsp" on #scheme, but there is "schme" on #lisp. 07:50:31 Axioplase: If my name was somehow related to scheme that could have been amusing, yeah. 07:51:01 -!- Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:51:42 -!- blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:52:28 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 07:53:24 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-54-189.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:59:26 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.116.187] has joined #lisp 08:02:41 -!- tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:09:37 DelPuerto [~youguy@55.Red-217-125-255.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:10:10 -!- Harag [~Harag@dsl-242-254-64.telkomadsl.co.za] has left #lisp 08:10:25 tgrr [~tgrr@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 08:10:29 hello 08:10:41 are there any potential issues with this? (defun foo (a &optional b (func a)) 08:10:54 tgrr: no 08:11:20 so on each call b will be asigned (func a)? 08:11:32 tgrr: i guess that what you're interested in is if a lambda argument list resembles a let or a let*, right? 08:11:46 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 08:11:47 no, func will be assigned the passed value of a 08:12:21 oh i made a mistake on declaration, I meant this 08:12:25 try (defun foo (a &optional b (func a)) (format t "a ~A b ~A func ~A~%" a b func)) 08:12:41 (defun foo (a &optional (b (func a))) 08:12:46 -!- csdwifi [~csdwifi@76.177.215.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:12:56 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-210-180.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:13:24 tgrr: there are no issues with that either. 08:13:53 it'll do what I said? 08:14:18 ympbyc [~ympbyc@122-57-179-116.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:14:41 tgrr: b will default to be bound to the return value of (func a), with a being the passed value. 08:14:43 i'm not on computer now to check 08:14:45 -!- daniel___ [~daniel@p5082B3FD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:14:51 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082BB2C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:15:11 ok nice 08:15:45 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:17:33 -!- tgrr [~tgrr@76.73.16.26] has quit [Quit: .] 08:18:09 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-bdmtkjiwhwbpnacg] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:18:54 -!- ympbyc [~ympbyc@122-57-179-116.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has left #lisp 08:19:37 -!- DelPuerto [~youguy@55.Red-217-125-255.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 08:20:10 ISF [~ivan@187.106.54.41] has joined #lisp 08:21:56 -!- tsanhwa [~user@61.129.42.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:22:18 Hunden [~Hunden@e180100036.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:26:32 -!- Hunden [~Hunden@e180100036.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:30:33 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 08:30:46 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-pxojhylulmagfrlw] has joined #lisp 08:37:51 hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:38:44 Harag [~Harag@dsl-242-254-64.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:39:13 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755055.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:42:05 -!- cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:48:01 -!- sellout [~Adium@195.91.109.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:01:39 DelPuerto [~youguy@134.Red-81-44-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:05:06 sellout [~Adium@195.91.111.215] has joined #lisp 09:05:18 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:06:13 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:09:45 -!- DelPuerto [~youguy@134.Red-81-44-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 09:10:09 -!- anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:14:09 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:14:25 anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has joined #lisp 09:17:01 bobbysmith0071 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 09:18:06 -!- __class__ [~class@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:19:09 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:20:07 DelPuerto [~youguy@134.Red-81-44-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:20:11 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.116.187] has joined #lisp 09:23:34 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.116.187] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:25:36 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:26:24 SuChek [~SuChek@unaffiliated/suchek] has joined #lisp 09:26:27 __class__ [~class@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:28:31 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 09:32:27 -!- DelPuerto [~youguy@134.Red-81-44-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:32:37 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 09:33:40 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:37:24 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-pfxdmwgjitanwobs] has joined #lisp 09:37:25 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-pfxdmwgjitanwobs] has quit [Changing host] 09:37:25 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 09:38:35 yakov [~yakov@ip-83-149-3-13.nwgsm.ru] has joined #lisp 09:42:15 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.137.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:44:14 -!- sellout [~Adium@195.91.111.215] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:44:33 sellout [~Adium@195.91.111.215] has joined #lisp 09:44:52 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.14.86] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:46:37 Yuuhi [benni@p5483BE08.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:50:47 -!- jingtao [~jingtaozf@117.79.232.151] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:53:18 -!- lakkris [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:55:41 -!- nicdev_ [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: nicdev_] 09:58:52 -!- betta_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:59:31 pdo [~pdo@217.33.254.141] has joined #lisp 10:00:00 -!- Kryztof [~user@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:01:04 betta_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 10:03:11 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-132-188-166.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:03:11 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-132-188-166.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 10:03:11 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:04:24 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:06:23 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 10:09:11 DGASAU` [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #lisp 10:10:48 -!- DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:10:52 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.35.183] has joined #lisp 10:11:36 -!- betta_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:13:29 betta_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 10:14:16 -!- sellout [~Adium@195.91.111.215] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:14:40 sellout [~Adium@195.91.109.215] has joined #lisp 10:20:15 -!- betta_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:22:30 kvsari [~kvsari@R192109.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:23:46 betta_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 10:24:29 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 10:25:22 I'm new to Lisp. I've just finished reading the Land of Lisp. Are there any other books like it? 10:26:01 kvsari: No. But there are other good books to read. Practical Common Lisp and Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming come to mind. 10:27:04 blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has joined #lisp 10:29:46 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:29:56 kvsari: you can also look at the last chapters of Practical Common Lisp. 10:30:03 agspathis [~user@ppp-94-64-158-227.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 10:30:20 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 10:33:25 Cool. Thanks guys 10:33:27 -!- betta_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:34:39 -!- kvsari [~kvsari@R192109.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:40:32 alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 10:41:10 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:41:53 EarlGray [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has joined #lisp 10:43:39 -!- agspathis [~user@ppp-94-64-158-227.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:44:58 tcr [~tcr@217-162-207-189.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 10:45:20 -!- yakov [~yakov@ip-83-149-3-13.nwgsm.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:46:41 -!- __class__ [~class@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:47:51 -!- alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:48:09 zqwell [~kafergots@FL1-119-241-244-73.chb.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 10:48:27 __class__ [~class@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:48:37 carlocci [~nes@93.37.212.48] has joined #lisp 10:49:16 alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 10:50:31 Ttm_stage [~ripault@sao-paulo.lrde.epita.fr] has joined #lisp 10:50:37 hi, I have a question 10:50:50 Is it possible to force the evaluation of an argument in a macro ? 10:51:00 without using an intermediate variable 10:51:48 Hunden [~Hunden@e180100036.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:52:02 evaluation at what time? 10:52:11 runtime or macroexpansion-time? 10:52:27 macroexpansion time 10:52:31 (I think) 10:52:51 then that means that you're using macros wrongly 10:53:15 Actually, I don't think I have a choice 10:53:40 you see, I use sb-profile:profile (which is a macro) inside a function 10:54:05 it waits for a function, and since it is not evaluated, you can give the symbol 10:55:12 you can cheat by doing (eval `(sb-profile:profile ,function-name)) 10:55:22 I'll try this 10:55:23 thx 10:56:15 or use sb-profile::profile-1-fun, but it's non future-proof 10:56:26 since it's not exported, it may be removed anytime 10:56:31 I did'nt know about that one, I'll take a look 10:56:35 yep 10:56:38 but if it's for one off thing, it might work 10:57:08 pnq [~nick@ACA22185.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 10:57:11 You first solution works, thanks a lot :) 10:57:58 csdwifi [~csdwifi@CPE-76-177-215-56.natcky.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:58:46 addled [~addled@149.Red-83-45-70.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:00:34 fourier [~user@213.141.149.93] has joined #lisp 11:00:57 H4ns` [~user@p4FFC88E8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:03:39 SuChek_ [~SuChek@unaffiliated/suchek] has joined #lisp 11:04:40 -!- H4ns [~user@p4FFC9A0B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:06:46 -!- SuChek [~SuChek@unaffiliated/suchek] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:09:26 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.152.194] has joined #lisp 11:11:39 -!- addled [~addled@149.Red-83-45-70.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 11:11:51 addled [~addled@149.Red-83-45-70.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:18:17 spearalot [~spearalot@c83-248-137-60.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:19:50 dnolen_ [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 11:20:03 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 11:20:30 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-58-167.lns3.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:24:07 val019 [irc2gowebc@net-93-144-198-72.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 11:24:32 hi, in aima lisp code is often use this symbol @, for example here: 11:24:41 (defstruct example (nome (@ 1 0)) 11:24:42 ) 11:25:06 i can't understand if this is something relates to lisp or what... 11:25:49 it should be defined by AIMA 11:26:22 there is no @ in Common Lisp 11:26:24 it's a name function? 11:26:41 it names either a function or macro 11:26:56 Kryztof [~user@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 11:26:56 ok, thanks 11:27:16 might be a macro nome that has @ as syntax 11:27:35 When I build an executable with say, SBCL + buildapp, any shared library that some CL library had loaded is packed inside this executable or during the executable initiation it is dynamic loaded? 11:27:49 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-pxojhylulmagfrlw] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:27:53 ecraven: defstruct doesn't have @ as syntax 11:28:04 assuming that in the presented example defstruct is cl:defstruct 11:28:18 ah, sorry, didn't read all of it :( 11:28:28 didi: they would be dynamically loaded 11:28:38 stassats: Thanks. 11:28:44 i don't remember whether it happens automatically or you should do it manually, though 11:29:11 static linking for would be a nice feature 11:29:48 stassats: It apparently happens automatically because a `ldd' doesn't show a link to the GTK+ library but it is used by the application. 11:30:29 that's not what that means 11:30:40 No? 11:31:18 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 11:31:31 you can load shared libraries at runtime with dlopen, whether you do that manually, or sbcl does that for you after starting a saved core, i don't recall 11:31:37 Wiallim [~Lambda@1.80.5.109] has joined #lisp 11:32:16 nicdev_ [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 11:32:47 i think sbcl does it for you during initialization. 11:33:00 stassats: I see. Well, that is what I meant. If SBCL always does `dlopen' when I run its generated executable or it's somehow packed inside. 11:33:27 -!- addled [~addled@149.Red-83-45-70.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 11:33:45 Xach: Nice. 11:34:23 indeed, the manual states that it does load them 11:34:28 http://www.sbcl.org/manual/index.html#Loading-Shared-Object-Files 11:35:22 stassats: Nice. Thank you. 11:35:39 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-xsizjxrnefdtpron] has joined #lisp 11:35:48 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:36:20 but if you do any kind of initialization prior to using the library, it has to be redone on start-up, obviously 11:38:56 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439933.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 11:40:17 -!- nicdev_ [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: nicdev_] 11:45:20 makao007 [3d8ed192@gateway/web/freenode/ip.61.142.209.146] has joined #lisp 11:46:12 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-xsizjxrnefdtpron] has left #lisp 11:46:40 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA22185.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:47:34 yakov [~yakov@ip-83-149-3-34.nwgsm.ru] has joined #lisp 11:49:16 pnq [~nick@ACA22185.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 11:49:32 -!- csdwifi [~csdwifi@CPE-76-177-215-56.natcky.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:49:48 is there any tutorial/doc which explains how one can write a lisp module in C (say for SBCL) ? 11:50:08 kushal: what would the module do? 11:50:53 Xach, don't know, just wanted to know , say things a c library does, I want to do the same (or better use that C library) 11:51:26 kushal: you should take a look around cffi 11:51:38 it's the package that does the interface with other languages IIRC 11:52:15 Ttm_stage, ok , but is their any native way 11:52:22 kushal: whose? 11:52:27 Ttm_stage, this one I guess is like ctype in python 11:52:48 kushal: CFFI is a C Foreign Function Interface. 11:53:00 serichsen, ok 11:53:08 it does the bindings for you I think 11:53:31 kushal: do you want the C side to manipulate Lisp data? Or do you want to be able to access C functions, structures, etc, from Lisp? 11:53:49 Xach, second one 11:53:51 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA22185.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:53:59 cffi is the one then I think 11:54:03 Xach, and better if we can do the first 11:54:33 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 11:54:35 kushal: sb-alien can do that. cffi is a portable way to do the same kinds of things sb-alien does. 11:55:07 kushal what do you mean by "native way" 11:55:09 pnq [~nick@172.162.33.133] has joined #lisp 11:55:10 cfy [~cfy@125.123.21.183] has joined #lisp 11:55:10 -!- cfy [~cfy@125.123.21.183] has quit [Changing host] 11:55:10 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 11:55:26 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.35.183] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:56:07 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:56:31 shaggy- [~shaggy@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 11:57:32 kennyd, I can explain in python way: using ctypes we can call an external shared library functions or use the C extension from python itself to create a new native python module 11:58:29 kushal: You might want to forget about how Python does it. 11:58:37 Xach, ok :) 11:58:42 kushal: you can define interfaces to C libraries at runtime with Lisp code. 11:58:48 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.35.183] has joined #lisp 11:58:49 Xach, ok 11:58:58 Usually no need to write anything extra in C to support it. (Usually.) 12:01:09 mcstar [~mcstar@szfkipc72.szfki.kfki.hu] has joined #lisp 12:01:22 kushal: you can look at libraries that wrap C libraries for examples. e.g. cl-zmq 12:01:54 Xach, ok 12:02:39 Xach, if I just manage package the libraries for the distributions things will become much easier for me 12:03:12 people are still opposing me of using lisp as they want everything packaged as rpm :( 12:03:24 Find new people. 12:03:30 :) 12:04:06 i don't see how lisp and rpm are mutually exlusive 12:04:09 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.35.183] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 12:04:29 you can package quicklisp into an rpm and call it a day 12:04:33 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 12:06:02 stassats, the guideline wants to get separate packages for libraries 12:06:43 screw the guideline 12:06:53 I wish 12:08:24 -!- makao007 [3d8ed192@gateway/web/freenode/ip.61.142.209.146] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:10:23 kdas_ [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-ltcrpfkgmwowtqlw] has joined #lisp 12:10:54 -!- Ttm_stage [~ripault@sao-paulo.lrde.epita.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:11:06 -!- val019 [irc2gowebc@net-93-144-198-72.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:13:58 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:15:10 -!- antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1177894329.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:16:00 zmv [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has joined #lisp 12:17:47 Ttm_stage [~ripault@sao-paulo.lrde.epita.fr] has joined #lisp 12:19:30 Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:23:29 -!- mcstar [~mcstar@szfkipc72.szfki.kfki.hu] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 12:24:21 -!- pnq [~nick@172.162.33.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:25:23 Evanescence [~chris@122.237.31.194] has joined #lisp 12:25:54 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@p57A4060E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:26:41 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-19-65.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:26:44 pnq [~nick@ACA22185.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 12:29:52 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-54-189.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:31:18 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-19-65.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:33:46 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.212.48] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 12:34:07 I understand kushal. It's a constant tension between policies that want every dependency using a .deb and wonderful things like quicklisp. 12:36:14 how are gems installed in debian, speaking of similar systems? 12:36:59 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 12:37:03 tic: I don't know. But I've heard it's a problem too. 12:39:00 -!- npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:39:03 ngz [~user@209.141.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 12:39:40 -!- kdas_ is now known as kushal 12:39:48 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-ltcrpfkgmwowtqlw] has quit [Changing host] 12:39:49 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 12:40:06 didi, yup 12:41:09 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-46-38.iburst.co.za] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:41:46 pinterface [~pinterfac@173-20-55-85.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 12:42:39 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:43:22 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:43:53 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 12:44:11 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 12:45:39 npoektop [~npoektop@ip-46-73-50-153.bb.netbynet.ru] has joined #lisp 12:48:26 -!- seangrove [~user@c-98-248-33-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:49:22 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:50:22 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-076-182-089-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:52:23 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 12:52:26 -!- H4ns` is now known as H4ns 12:53:46 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.106.54.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:53:47 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:54:30 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-58-167.lns3.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:03:12 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:07:46 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-71-174-61-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:10:18 -!- Wiallim [~Lambda@1.80.5.109] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:12:10 -!- zmv is now known as z` 13:12:25 -!- z` is now known as z- 13:15:05 cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 13:15:49 pavelludiq [~pavelludi@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 13:18:17 -!- z- is now known as zmv 13:23:33 -!- zmv is now known as xz 13:24:11 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:26:30 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:26:41 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:27:42 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:27:43 -!- ehu changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: ABCL 0.26.1, SBCL 1.0.50, anaphora 0.9.4, SBCL officially in Git, slime-indentation changes in CVS, usocket 0.5.2 13:28:42 -!- xz [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:29:43 wooo abcl 13:30:16 xz [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has joined #lisp 13:31:21 yup. with asdf 2.017 13:31:29 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755055.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:31:52 *and* sub 20 ansi failures 13:31:54 ! 13:33:48 sral [2669c8fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.38.105.200.252] has joined #lisp 13:33:57 ehu: when will the site be updated? 13:34:09 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 13:34:13 the packages are there, working on the site right now. 13:34:14 *Xach* reloads http://common-lisp.net/project/armedbear/ over and over 13:34:25 (releases/) 13:34:29 F5F5F5F5F5F5F5F5F5F5 13:35:54 *rsynnott* wonders is Java 7's dynamic language stuff of any use to ABCL 13:37:52 rsynnott: probably; it might provide us with dynamic linking in the jvm 13:37:55 that is, 13:38:19 -!- sral [2669c8fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.38.105.200.252] has quit [Client Quit] 13:38:21 normal calls (not method calls) can be dynamically rebound when a function is recompiled 13:38:29 Night-hacks [~nullpoint@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 13:38:36 hi 13:39:58 what's the licenses behind http://paste.lisp.org code's ? 13:40:52 francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has joined #lisp 13:41:08 Night-hacks: MIT-type. 13:41:17 http://www.common-lisp.net/project/lisppaste/ has more info 13:41:38 sonnym1 [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 13:41:44 thanks. 13:42:59 if I have something like that below would it garantee that the correct value corresponding to the key is incremented or am I doiung something very wrong: (maphash #'(lambda (k v) (cond ((member datum (nth 0 v) :test #'equal) (incf (nth 1 (gethash k table))))...)) table) ? 13:43:04 ptimothyp1 [~timothy@122.150.240.237] has joined #lisp 13:43:34 -!- Evanescence [~chris@122.237.31.194] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 13:43:48 Xach: i meant the codes that have been posted in that service ? 13:44:26 paste.lisp.org is typically the land of broken toys :) 13:44:49 mrSpec [~Spec@c-66-31-28-194.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:49 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@c-66-31-28-194.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:44:49 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 13:44:51 Fade: yes but, some toys still are useful ! 13:45:17 but I guess if there's something on a public pastebin, then that thing is posted for the public? 13:45:21 Night-hacks: paste.lisp.org can't automatically influence the licensing of code posted to it. 13:45:34 i expect you'd have to track down the author. 13:45:38 Night-hacks: if you want to make sure that you're properly reusing code found there, contact the poster. 13:46:11 ok 13:47:40 anyway it's an good to have License for those code's 13:48:05 :s/an/ / 13:49:24 oi 13:49:36 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:49:49 -!- dnolen_ [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen_] 13:50:09 can I bind a dynamic variable in a package only? 13:50:36 el-maxo: no, but you can bind it within a scope, only. 13:51:25 ok but in this case I would have to bind it anew in every function. 13:51:45 if that's the case, are you using the right mechanism? 13:52:21 in other words, what are you trying to achiev? 13:52:24 achieve? 13:52:29 el-maxo: are you sure you need dynamic binding? and you know you can set the value of a special variable? 13:52:37 following scenario: some logging functions in package log, they look in log:*log* to find the log file 13:53:07 el-maxo: you don't have to export your vars if that's what you are worried about 13:53:42 but when I do (setf *log* "foo") I overwrite log:*foo* 13:54:13 el-maxo: you want to do package specific logging? 13:54:33 in this case, yes 13:55:07 el-maxo: then you'll need to incorporate the compile-time value of *package* in your logging macros or functions. 13:55:08 because in this package I have 6 functions, each needs to log once, but all need to log to the same file 13:56:22 such is life. Packages only manage symbol lookup. 13:56:24 so I think there should be a way to "shadow" log:*log* with otherpkg:*log* 13:57:03 ollkorrekt [~psych069@63.238.216.253] has joined #lisp 13:57:12 markskil1eck [~mark@host-92-12-21-143.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:15 el-maxo: there is not, but there are enough ways to achieve what you want. 13:57:31 I object to that "should". 13:57:49 serichsen: I didnt mean what you object to 13:59:04 you're using a dynamically-scoped variable, but you're trying to give it a value over a given lexical scope. That's always going to hurt. 13:59:18 so I can not have a package global lexical variable? 13:59:46 el-maxo: no. packages are namespaces for symbols. 14:00:03 Remember that a package can be spread over several files 14:00:45 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:01:41 (If your package is in a single file the brutal way to do it would be to wrap the whole shebang in a let, I suppose) 14:02:34 -!- fourier [~user@213.141.149.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:02:39 shebang? 14:03:21 idiom for 'the entire thing' 14:04:12 I would define my own logging functions as wrappers around those other functions. Example: (defun log (datum) (let ((log:*log* my-logfile)) (log:log datum))). 14:04:15 What you can do is have a macro that expands into code that lexically shadows the LOG function. 14:04:40 Xach: front page now updated. 14:04:44 yay 14:04:52 arnsholt: I tried that once, doesnt do what you expect 14:04:57 rolando [~user@226.139.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 14:05:01 create teh logging function as a closure? 14:05:03 el-maxo: doesn't do what *you* expect. 14:05:07 s/teh/the 14:05:17 you can even use FLET and use the same name as the global function. 14:05:27 pkhuong: either he doesnt know what I am trying to do or he expected it too 14:06:43 seriously can we omit this cuntish "you are a noob, no you" for once? 14:07:08 aren't you? 14:07:14 I love this channel but I hate having to think about every word I write so that noone gets the idea I am pissing on his pride 14:07:29 zort- [~eitan@bas1-toronto07-1176122518.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:07:39 el-maxo: please stop whining 14:07:44 I am and I am proud 14:07:47 Just pretend that you're an intelligent person and it should all be ok. 14:07:58 -!- Siliconjesus [~Jeremy@host-8-174.ilcu3rd.clients.pavlovmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:08:05 tere is no intelligence 14:08:09 happy? :) 14:08:13 lovely typo 14:08:19 That's why I said pretend. 14:08:32 you dont get it 14:08:36 Google results for "common lisp copy array" talk about creating an array displaced to the original array then adjusting that new array. This should work too, though, right: (make-array (array-dimensions foo) :initial-contents foo :element-type (array-element-type foo)) 14:08:54 Zhivago: now it is your time to pretend! :) 14:09:03 I always pretend. 14:09:28 agspathis [~user@ppp-94-64-168-153.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 14:09:30 zort-: initial-contents only accepts sequences 14:09:37 to get back to topic (#2) this is seriously annoying (for a lot of people I think) 14:10:10 urandom__ [~user@p548A3964.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:10 el-maxo: Just get a thicker skin. If you upset someone, then defuse the situation or ignore it. 14:10:16 zort-: and for sequences there's COPY-SEQ 14:11:01 Zhivago: I dont feel attacked, I feel that otehrs feel attacked, then I feel like I should correct their misconception and that is work 14:11:18 -!- ollkorrekt is now known as tepidentity 14:12:00 -!- zort- [~eitan@bas1-toronto07-1176122518.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 14:12:03 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shebang 14:12:19 -!- tepidentity is now known as ollkorrekt 14:14:19 BountyX [~erhan@78.178.210.58] has joined #lisp 14:14:33 ehu: has trivial-garbage been updated to support abcl yet? 14:15:15 -!- Night-hacks [~nullpoint@95.38.52.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:15:35 paradoja [~Paradoja@188.87.11.197] has joined #lisp 14:16:27 -!- ollkorrekt is now known as tepidentity 14:16:28 -!- paradoja [~Paradoja@188.87.11.197] has quit [Client Quit] 14:16:33 Xach: I don't think so. 14:16:48 Xach: unfortunately. 14:16:55 ehu: What will it take? 14:17:08 no idea. I'll need to ask easyE. 14:17:19 -!- tepidentity is now known as psych069 14:17:25 I think he's been in contact with the author. 14:18:03 I think he did submit patches. 14:18:21 -!- pdo [~pdo@217.33.254.141] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:18:37 Xach: we're aiming at ABCL 1.0 later this year. 14:18:42 leyyer_su [~user@125.69.125.203] has joined #lisp 14:18:45 -!- BountyX [~erhan@78.178.210.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:19:00 Xach: we'll work on further AMOP compliance within the 1.0 series. 14:19:08 as well as better debug facilities. 14:20:05 easyE and I met earlier this summer (in person) 14:20:20 which helped develop a common direction/understanding 14:20:26 -!- francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:20:46 Will there be an ABCL mind-meld at ELCM? 14:20:52 ECLM, rather 14:21:13 looks like there will be three contributors, which is a great score. 14:21:18 so, yea. 14:21:44 Xach: what would you consider a requirement for ABCL in the near future/1.0? 14:22:03 Siliconjesus [~Jeremy@henle2.scs.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 14:22:10 good slime support 14:22:10 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-140-128.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:22:12 hmmm 14:22:26 yes, good slime support would be important to me 14:22:31 not that i'm aware of the current slime support 14:22:37 Hmm, is anyone able to get trivial-garbage from darcs? 14:22:49 what's the error? 14:22:58 I am having problems resolving common-lisp.net on one server and 404 on the inventory on another server. 14:23:19 i got darcs failed: Incompatibility with repository, perhaps a have an old repo 14:23:23 I guess the latter might be a version problem. I can get it now. 14:24:02 ok. great, because I can resolve cl-net 14:24:06 What's th eproblem with slime support in the current ABCL? It's worked all right for me (granted, most of actual development for me happens in SBCL) 14:24:21 Xach: pulled anew fine from http://common-lisp.net/~loliveira/darcs/trivial-garbage 14:24:43 -!- psych069 is now known as ollkorrekt 14:25:08 we can look at better slime support. however, I think easyE uses SLIME all the time. I use emacs, but generally end up coding without slime. 14:25:26 -!- finnrobi [finnrobi@lynx.stud.ntnu.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:25:27 what's the major slime issue? 14:25:35 just so we can focus our attention? 14:25:58 -!- xz [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:26:14 I use SBCL pretty exclusively, so I don't know how ABCL's support compares. 14:26:38 Xach: love the documentation page! 14:27:16 Thanks. I think it will be useful for finding out what some of these libraries do. And also for offline hacking. 14:27:36 antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1177894329.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:27:54 also a motivator for making sure all relevant useful information about my systems is available. 14:28:06 update! update! 14:28:10 what documentation page? 14:28:25 http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/UNOFFICIAL/docs/ 14:28:52 is it done automatically? 14:29:13 Xach: 'no description available'; that's too bad. appearing very often. 14:29:27 stassats: yes. 14:29:30 but very nice indeed. 14:29:37 crowdsource it! 14:29:42 ehu: yes. but actually less often than i thought it might. 14:30:35 Xach: I've got some PD libraries. Would it be more convenient to you if I added a LICENSE file with an explicit mention of it, instead of just tossing it in the .asd? 14:31:15 do you pull it from asdf:defsystem :description? 14:31:43 Xach: luis moved trivial-garbage to https://github.com/trivial-garbage/trivial-garbage 14:32:02 stassats: yes. 14:32:09 -!- ngz [~user@209.141.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:32:12 same for https://github.com/trivial-features/trivial-features and https://github.com/cl-babel/babel 14:32:25 sykopomp: the .asd file is ok. i need to slurp those because it's the only source of the info on many projects. 14:32:29 cl.net page could use some notice 14:32:29 fe[nl]ix: thanks. 14:32:47 instead of "This is an automatically generated placeholder page" 14:33:21 *stassats* updates projects data file 14:33:59 ehu: The git version of trivial-garbage does support abcl. yay. 14:34:30 -!- Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:34:46 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@c83-248-137-60.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 14:34:55 oh! great! 14:35:10 *sykopomp* wonders if asdf wants :licence or :license 14:35:59 is it british? 14:36:15 sykopomp: both work 14:36:24 fe[nl]ix: ah good. Thanks. 14:36:29 (licence :accessor system-licence :initarg :licence 14:36:30 :accessor system-license :initarg :license) 14:36:51 I didn't know that this is possible 14:36:51 nice 14:37:47 *Xach* uses that pretty frequently 14:37:56 xz [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has joined #lisp 14:38:33 Xach: do you still update the download stats file every now and then? 14:38:51 ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:39:29 ehu: every now and then. 14:39:38 *Xach* has been too busy recently 14:40:03 Xach: I'm surprised that there aren't direct links to project pages in that page, btw. 14:40:33 sykopomp: that information is not as easy to scrape from project software archives. someone (or some crowd) has to accumulate and maintain it. 14:41:17 Xach: didn't some crowd try to at cl-user.net? 14:41:33 (in a rather standardized way) 14:41:40 The docs/ thing was generated by a bunch of heuristics, like "Is there a docs/ or doc/ directory? Is there README or README.txt or LICENSE or ...?" 14:41:58 ehu: Yes. 14:42:50 hmm. that should be scrapable (or we should be able to contact the crowd :-)) 14:42:59 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-207-189.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:43:40 ehu: It might be worth revisiting. At the time it first arrived, it required too much bureaucracy to update for my tastes. 14:44:04 I think it is primarily the work of a small number of enthusiastic (at one time) updaters. 14:44:26 right. since then, update right have been handed out more liberally, I think. 14:44:38 the community would benefit from that. 14:45:26 but I guess it would be nice to build in GMail authentication, just like SF has these days. 14:46:23 leo2007 [~leo@114.247.10.80] has joined #lisp 14:46:27 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA22185.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:49:20 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-eseifisylutvsauz] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:51:17 -!- ptimothyp1 [~timothy@122.150.240.237] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:52:41 I have a small problem. DEFPARAMETER will declare the symbol globally special, correct? Even if I MAKUNBOUND the variable later, it's still globally special? 14:52:51 Is there a way to "un-special" it? 14:53:18 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755055.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:22 You could use (let ((a 10)) (declare (special a)) ...) instead. 14:53:23 unintern 14:53:28 dlowe [~dlowe@nat/google/x-jlsgavqzcgnwomkh] has joined #lisp 14:54:12 stassats: ah. thanks 14:56:31 -!- trigen [c1aca602@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.172.166.2] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:57:02 So, special binding is a property of a symbol, yes? 14:57:28 How does a LET with DECLARE SPECIAL work then? 14:57:39 loke: no. It's a property of the identifier. 14:57:43 It is a property of the environment. 14:57:51 oh 14:57:53 the specialness of the binding, that is. 14:58:06 The binding itself is indeed directly associated with the symbol. 14:58:07 But the environment is not first class or exposed in a regular fashion in CL. 14:59:12 Hmm... I guess my problem is that I don't understand how the specialness is resolved at runtime? I mean, an expression such as (let ((x 10)) ...) would have to check whether X has a special binding at runtime, correct? 14:59:24 No. 14:59:42 specialness is a lexical (compile-time) property. 14:59:44 That's determinable statically from lexical analysis. 15:00:06 (I don't use special binding much, as you can obviouslly see) 15:00:15 loke: that's why you declaim or declare variables as special. 15:01:17 So would I be correct in assuming that unless I declare a variable special, I will never see the dynamic binding of such variable (even if it exists)? 15:01:47 you can't create such a binding 15:02:17 unless it's declaimed/proclaimed special, or you go through progv or symbol-value. 15:02:21 (let ((x 10)) (declare (special x)) ...x has dynamic extent here, no?...) 15:02:45 It has the usual extent of a let binding. 15:03:11 loke: and the specialness has lexical scope. 15:04:07 But... 15:04:15 Damn, I'm missing something obvious here 15:04:18 Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:04:46 Assuming (defun foo () x) I can then to (let ((x 10)) (declare (special x)) (foo)) -> 10 15:04:51 yes. 15:05:10 well, on most implementations, anyway. 15:05:12 Doesn't that mean that X has dyamic extent there? 15:05:27 Not sure what the standard says about the lookup for X in FOO. 15:05:54 loke: Perhaps you're confused about dynamic extent -- what do you think it means? 15:06:00 pkhuong: are you saying that for that code to be conformat, I need a global special declaimation for X? 15:06:20 loke: what's "there"? Inside FOO? You're actually using undefined behaviour, but most implementation will punt to the global/special value. 15:06:40 Zhivago: dynamic extent, to me, means that a variable has binding throughout its entire lifetime (its LET form) even if I call other functions. 15:07:04 loke: Well, that's true for all let bindings. 15:07:38 loke: If you consider special and lexical variables to be in separate namespaces it might make more sense. 15:07:44 Zhivago: well, it's not available outside the lexical scope of the LET form though 15:08:06 Availability is not extent. 15:08:08 ah... hmm... that sounds interesting. let me think :-) 15:08:39 So (let ((a 10)) (declare (special a)) means 'bind 10 to the special a, and have a refer to special a here' 15:08:41 That sexy book has a good explanation of scope and extent. 15:08:45 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 15:08:59 (locally (declare (special a)) means 'have a refer to special a here'. 15:10:27 -!- markskil1eck [~mark@host-92-12-21-143.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:10:34 I'm getting it now. I think. You mentioning it being different namespaces was the key to my understanding. I think :-) 15:10:51 Good. 15:11:25 I just wrote some test code and yes indeed, I now understand why I saw the special binding of x in my example 15:11:43 http://gigamonkeys.com/book/variables.html 15:12:09 Even if X has special declaration somewhere, a LET form declaring X will not affext the special one at all, even if I call another function which will read it 15:12:21 My test code seems to confirm that. Thanks a lot :-) 15:13:24 I do have one related question though... How does the special variables work in the context of multiple threads? Does each thread have its own set of the dynamic variables? 15:13:45 special bindings are thread-local 15:14:01 But global bindings are not? 15:14:21 "globally special" 15:14:29 Well ... since threads aren't standard ... 15:14:50 -!- sellout [~Adium@195.91.109.215] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:15:01 tepidentity [~psych069@programmer1.ddns.icon.bg] has joined #lisp 15:15:10 Fair enough, but there is a somewhat established "this is how it works" behaviour across the implementations, right? 15:15:23 Probably. 15:15:30 I mean, the behaviour which would become the standard if they ever decided to make one. 15:17:18 loke: I do a lot of the same. The cleanest way to interpret CLHS regarding threads & special bindings is thread-local. Works that way in SBCL and CCL, so good enough for me :) 15:17:33 I use such thread-local storage very heavily 15:17:48 I'm a fan of not using threads. 15:18:08 hi 15:18:08 you use multiple processes? 15:18:15 is anyone using sbcl on arm? 15:18:18 Phoodus: Yeah, but global variables doesn't seem to conform to that. If I DEFVAR a variable to some value, and then fire off some threads, any change to that variable is visible to all threads, at least in SBCL 15:18:33 Posterdati: does it run on ARM? 15:18:35 if you do a setf, yes it affects the global value 15:18:40 phoodus: Yes. 15:18:47 if you do a let, then your thread sees the local value 15:18:52 -!- ollkorrekt [~psych069@63.238.216.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:19:04 using a threadpool model, it's quite easy to have those local bindings declared around the thread-specific code 15:19:10 loke: why not? 15:19:40 also, if you do a let to establish the threadlocal binding, you can setf inside there and that hits the threadlocal value 15:19:44 without trashing the global 15:19:45 Posterdati: because to my knowledge, SBCL doesn't have an ARM compiler 15:20:16 so why there's an sbcl-source package for debian on armel? 15:20:26 Posterdati: source 15:20:35 Posterdati: You wouldn't be able to compile it 15:20:41 so that you can download it and port to ARM 15:20:59 stassats: ok, may I cross compile it? 15:21:11 you might be able to cross-compiler from ARM. 15:21:20 *cross-compile, even. 15:21:24 pkhuong: not on amd64? 15:21:51 Posterdati: SBCL doesn't work on ARM, period. 15:21:52 so speaking of architectures, anybody happen to know instruction-set info about Tilera processors? 15:22:03 Phoodus: isn't that a MIPS? 15:22:04 dunno if it's all NDA-bound or just not listed 15:22:05 v 15:22:18 pkhuong: I don't know. They claim 3-wide VLIW, which doesn't sound MIPS-ish 15:22:29 stassats: is there any Lisp working on arm? 15:22:31 although it's a 5-deep pipeline, which does 15:22:38 Posterdati: ccl works on arm 15:22:39 Posterdati: ABCL should work 15:22:39 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@nat/google/x-jlsgavqzcgnwomkh] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:22:47 ok 15:22:49 Posterdati: (on some arms, i tried arm7a recently) 15:23:01 I mean opensource 15:23:04 Phoodus: it's based on not so old academic research, iirc. You could look for papers. 15:23:10 Plus, their toolchain is gnu. 15:23:28 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-151-175.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 15:23:31 ok, what about clisp? 15:23:53 clisp works too 15:23:56 Posterdati: just out of curiosity, what's wrong with ccl? 15:24:03 where _doesn't_ clisp work? :) 15:24:12 don't even now it 15:24:13 Phoodus: Solaris X86. :-) 15:24:22 FFI and sigsegv stuff might be hard to get working 15:24:27 H4ns: I don't know ccl 15:24:31 Phoodus: well, it runs and FFI and threads doesn't work 15:25:02 Posterdati: http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/ 15:25:22 DelPuerto [~youguy@90.162.153.240] has joined #lisp 15:25:32 the problem is that I need a Lisp controller on an embedded then connect remotely towards it to drive some hardware 15:25:49 Phoodus: well... looks like they forked off SGI's MIPS stuff at some point, but are using a proprietary ISA. 15:25:52 Posterdati: have a look at ccl. 15:25:56 Posterdati: ccl sounds good for that 15:25:59 H4ns: ok 15:26:02 Wait a minute 15:26:09 ECL runs on ARM, doesn't it. ANd it's small 15:26:16 why does it have to be Lisp? 15:26:29 stassats: is an experiment 15:26:45 Argh, forget it. ECL doesn't run on ARM 15:26:48 pkhuong: interesting 15:27:02 Posterdati: use lisp to generate C 15:27:15 you would need somewhat more expensive controllers and memory to use Lisp 15:27:17 (well, I guess that's just describing ECL at some level) 15:27:50 prescheme! 15:27:52 stassats: no problem for that I've got an ep9302 board here 15:28:19 I'd suggest picolisp, but not sure what sockets & hardware control would do there 15:28:23 stassats: and an usb key as hd 15:28:30 (it's definitely not common lisp though) 15:28:44 HG` [~HG@p5DC0533B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:28:46 -!- tepidentity [~psych069@programmer1.ddns.icon.bg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:29:11 though it'd probably be easy to extend the source to add support to what you need 15:29:40 loke: Somebody got ECL to run on Android...or iPhone? Don't remember but it's been done. 15:29:47 redline6561: Oh yeah 15:29:51 Googling would turn it up. 15:29:53 i would've used some kind of proper scheme (and not racket, obviously) 15:29:58 I remember that (both android and iphone actually, IIRC) 15:30:21 http://funcall.posterous.com/ecl-on-iphone-redux 15:30:28 stassats, loke: http://www.wisdomandwonder.com/link/3387/how-to-set-up-gambit-c-for-the-iphone 15:30:31 I'm not sure what kind of user interface you can expect from ECL under android. 15:30:36 dude, if you've got space for a usb master, CCL or ECL should be doable?! 15:30:54 but what sort of RAM do you have? 15:30:56 Zhivago: presumably, you'd have to write a java wrapper to do the UI 15:31:12 IIRC, you're still not allowed use UI components from the NDK 15:31:18 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:31:18 *stassats* waits for nokia n9 phone, to use CCL with commonqt on it 15:31:25 ok, thanks 15:31:29 The Android Scripting Environment project might be a reasonable compromise. 15:31:33 stassats +1q 15:31:34 on iOS would be marginally less messy, as you can in principle use iOS UI components from C 15:31:47 (it's not pretty, but it's possible) 15:31:59 -!- tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 15:32:06 -!- yakov [~yakov@ip-83-149-3-34.nwgsm.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:33:11 I have a clojure repl on my samsung galaxy 's' android phone. 15:33:12 yakov [~yakov@ip-83-149-3-33.nwgsm.ru] has joined #lisp 15:33:32 it runs, but it's too slow to be useful. (+ 2 6) takes > 15 seconds to return a value. 15:33:51 Just compile to javascript. 15:33:58 lol 15:33:59 Fade: heh that bad? 15:34:08 yeah 15:34:12 it _crawls_ 15:34:13 tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #lisp 15:34:20 so, why do you keep it? 15:34:36 I have a lot of space on the phone. 15:34:50 Fade: dalvik is particularly bad at some stuff clojure uses a lot too 15:34:50 I haven't had to remove it, but it doesn't see much use. 15:35:19 -!- DelPuerto [~youguy@90.162.153.240] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 15:35:33 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:35:40 I wonder if anybody in the abcl camp has got abcl running on dalvik? 15:35:44 nope 15:36:06 there is/was a gsoc project for that as a target 15:36:29 I was able to get abcl compiled with openjdk on my powerpc linux machine, but it was also very slow. 15:36:41 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:37:41 ehu: Hmm, I am thwarted by bordeaux-threads now. Were those updated too? 15:39:18 *Xach* gives it a whirl 15:39:18 When I built Hunchentoot for ABCL, I needed to patch bordeaux-threads 15:39:26 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:39:32 Fade: ecl seems like the best choice, and if you have 2.3 you might be able to use the C bridge and forego java entirely 15:39:34 fe[nl]ix: what's the best upstream source for bordeaux-threads? 15:40:13 http://common-lisp.net/project/bordeaux-threads/releases/ 15:40:35 i have no idea how performant it would be, but i'd like to see my canvas stuff with a gl backend on there 15:40:45 fe[nl]ix: will there be a new release sometime? the latest release does not seem to work with latest abcl. 15:40:55 the git version of bordeaux-threads seems to work. 15:41:19 -!- xz is now known as zmv 15:43:15 yes, probably 15:45:11 -!- antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1177894329.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:46:28 kpal [eart0186@raven.linux.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:48:06 ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has joined #lisp 15:48:20 gkeith_lt [~gkeith@74-93-184-209-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:58 Xach: when was cl-pro established? 15:50:53 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:51:18 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:51:18 ksierka [~user@netblock-208-127-156-174.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 15:52:00 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 15:53:31 a year ago? 15:53:47 cmm: I see... I just discovered it. 15:54:27 loke: guess you just weren't elite enough before that 15:55:18 stassats: Well, partly. Also because I didn't really get into Lisp until fairly recently. (I've "known" Lisp for 15 years but it wasn't until I discovered QL that I actually started using it for real projects) 15:55:23 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 15:57:00 I wonder how many others that might be true for... 15:59:31 redline6561: I believe I've read some comments somewhere from people with the same experience 16:02:32 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 16:03:38 you kids got it easy, there was no quicklisp in my time! 16:04:19 we had to download software from unreliable websites! uphill, both ways! 16:04:43 tfb [~tfb@80.238.0.145] has joined #lisp 16:05:43 zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has joined #lisp 16:06:10 -!- zmv_ is now known as Guest24797 16:06:45 antifuchs: Hey, in MY days we not only had to download the source code, we also had to port it to your (naturally esoteric) Unix platform yourself! (in myc ase, that was BSD 4.3-reno on VAX) 16:06:49 And with a shoebox. 16:06:56 heh coming back i was surprised asdf-install was deprecated 16:07:01 antifuchs: and yes, that was uphill, all three ways 16:07:09 haha, I bet (: 16:07:19 oGMo: After that, go say that lisp software is unmaintained. 16:07:36 pjb: ? 16:07:52 "Congratulations, you are not running Eunice." 16:08:36 Hah. 16:08:37 H4ns: what used to say that? I remember it 16:08:51 tfb: that was the perl configure script, iirc. 16:08:52 compared to everything else i was looking at, CL stuff seems more-maintained in the past 5+ years than anything else 16:09:01 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:09:13 and who remembers eunicem I wonder... 16:09:37 tfb: it is best forgotten. it was a unix emulator for vms. 16:10:03 *tfb* unfortunately can not forget, wishes he could 16:10:07 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-104-117.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:11 hahaha 16:10:33 lisp machine ptsd 16:10:42 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.152.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:10:43 *cmm* sheds a little sand in sympathy 16:11:46 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has left #lisp 16:13:17 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-132-188-166.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 16:13:17 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-132-188-166.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 16:13:17 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:13:58 -!- yakov [~yakov@ip-83-149-3-33.nwgsm.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:14:54 -!- leo2007 [~leo@114.247.10.80] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 16:15:03 Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-219-182.w90-54.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:16:04 tfb: you were a VMS guy? 16:16:19 zmv [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has joined #lisp 16:16:38 -!- leyyer_su [~user@125.69.125.203] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:16:45 -!- zmv is now known as Guest26244 16:17:11 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 16:17:47 loke: no, I hated it at the time as it was not Unix, but now realise it was (is) actually a good OS - clusters that worked apart from anything else. But Eunice, ugh. 16:18:43 VMS was solid. 16:18:48 -!- Ttm_stage [~ripault@sao-paulo.lrde.epita.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:18:48 tfb: I've read some things about VMS, and yes, the clustering ("Galaxy", right?) seems pretty cool. 16:19:05 The only VMS I know, though, is SET DEFAULT instead of cd 16:19:19 -!- Guest24797 [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:20:20 loke: looks nicer than (setf *default-pathname-defaults* path) 16:20:25 quite astonishingly, the place I worked at (semi still do work at) not only still have some VMS, but have some VMS *on Vaxes* 16:20:26 :-0 16:20:47 -!- Guest26244 [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:20:50 -!- Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:21:05 stassats: well, it's a bit of an unfair comparison though as the C version is even worse. I'll spare you the code :-) 16:22:17 zmv__ [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has joined #lisp 16:23:39 I have a distinct recollection of VMS people calling Unix a toy. And in some senses they were arguing from solid ground. 16:24:14 we're looking for someone interested to reseach the possibility to target Dalvik as well as the JVM, for example by introducing a second compiler pass. 16:24:14 Anyone ever used MVS? 16:24:18 anyone? 16:24:24 (And sadly, over my vacation I was unable to dig out the IOLisp manuals I'd hoped to find.) 16:24:28 -!- e-user [~e-user@nat/nokia/x-bmcmhcrmmvvphljc] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:24:42 ehu: I was discussing that very thing with someone on #abcl not long ago 16:24:56 loke: i don't know 16:26:04 markskil1eck [~mark@host86-141-74-144.range86-141.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 16:26:04 ehu: I had this idea of behing able to do Android development on a local ABCL running on your machine, interfacing with a thin service on the device. Then, for deployment, you'd just run the precompiled files on the device (no need for the compiler to ever run on the device) 16:27:08 -!- tfb [~tfb@80.238.0.145] has quit [Quit: gone] 16:27:17 Xach: I was playing around with MVS on hercules a few years back, trying to learn that stuff. Man, it's quite horrible, and I had a furtile search for someone who had experience in MVS so that I could have some basic questions answered. 16:27:25 sounds a bit like aerique's proxy-bot in the AI challenge. 16:28:11 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:29:57 loke: *blank stare* 16:30:31 *JuanDaugherty* has used MVS. 16:30:41 OS/MFT even. 16:31:41 JuanDaugherty: really? 16:31:43 at one time it (MVS) was the premier production mainframe operating system 16:31:47 *Xach* started his internet life on VM/CMS, but it didn't have any Lisp that he could find 16:32:01 it held that position for a good 20+ years 16:32:33 JuanDaugherty: I figured out some things, like how to write JCL that compiled and ran some assembler programs 16:33:00 Xach: i also had one of my first non-local chat on a vm/cms box, using bitnet relay chat 16:33:11 see my MoCA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Lycurgus/MoCA 16:33:16 now you young folks know where the RC in IRC comes from! 16:33:31 JuanDaugherty: but when I tried COBOL, nothing worked. I presume that was because I had no COBOL compiler, but I could never figure out how to even see if I had one installed or not. Is there really no way to do something like "ls" from the VMS console? 16:33:52 loke: are you talking about vms or mvs? 16:33:57 MVS 16:34:07 loke: i'm a vms guy, sorry :) 16:34:28 absolutely not, you have to inspect the file system with one of the many utilities for that purpose 16:34:57 H4ns: this was in the dying days of bitnet, it actually had a tcp disk (SHARE TCP) and IRC client (rxirc). 16:35:25 JuanDaugherty: also, am I correct in assuming that the files I can see from TSO is completely separate from the stuff you work with from the console? 16:36:11 the word "console" doesn't have the same import/meaning in mainframes as in unix 16:36:39 i.e. mainframe architectures developed before say 1975 16:37:09 JuanDaugherty: I know that. However, I thought that I should be able to do anything from the JCL's with output to the console? 16:37:10 loke: that's why I said 'targetting Dalvik', because I have no idea what it takes to actually port abcl all the way. 16:37:11 are you using hercules or some other emulator on PC? 16:37:16 JuanDaugherty: but perhaps that's not the case. 16:37:20 JuanDaugherty: hercules 16:37:38 this is little off topic 16:37:42 *a 16:38:57 but no, you do stuff in JCL or in programs that access the machine thru character mode interfaces 16:39:01 jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:39:18 ehu: My idea was for deployment, simple take the generated class files in the ABCL fasls (the fasls are just zip files with class files in them) and run them through the dexer, providing me with something that can run on Android. For development, you'd just use normal ABCL running on your computer, but where the Java interfacing stuff (jclass and friends) would talk to a wrapper running on the device instead of talking to the local VM 16:39:21 Is there a list of errata for the CLHS? Because I think I have found an error in the definition of WHEN. 16:39:33 -!- zmv__ [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:39:46 jcowan: there is a page on cliki that's approximately that. 16:39:50 jcowan: what error is that? 16:39:56 loke, have you gotten ABCL code to run on an Android? 16:40:06 jcowan: http://www.cliki.net/Proposed%20ANSI%20Revisions%20and%20Clarifications 16:40:23 ChibaPet: I haven't tried yet. I have just started thinking abou t the project. Step one would be to try to run the generated class files through the Android dexer 16:40:26 loke: android doesn't run class files 16:41:01 zmv__ [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has joined #lisp 16:41:17 oGMo: that's why I said that development would have to happen in the VM on your development computer, just interfacing with something on the device. For deployment, you'd have to generate fasls and run them through the dexer and then create the APK 16:41:29 the compiler would oibviously not be available on the device 16:41:32 Xach: Thanks 16:41:55 The definition of WHEN says: "results---the values of the forms in a when form if the test-form yields true or in an unless form if the test-form yields false; otherwise nil." 16:42:05 But this is not what happens; we in fact get the values of the last form only. 16:42:07 loke: yeah though ideally you don't need to create the apk .. you can load the bytecode into the running vm 16:42:21 jcowan: right. The values of the forms. 16:42:36 facilities already exist for doing that, i've heard 16:42:54 *JuanDaugherty* was amazed to see how different the 3.x sdk stuff is yesterday. 16:42:54 oGMo: that depends on what the end goal is. My goal was to be able to use Lisp to develop an Android application. As such, the goal is to be able to build an APK 16:42:59 jcowan: by "forms", the spec means "an implicit progn". 16:43:00 loke: ah 16:43:05 Ah. 16:43:16 loke: a GUI application? 16:43:20 that may be rather problematic 16:43:26 oGMo: the advantage would be to be able to use the REPL and SLIME for development 16:43:33 AFAIK, those still require you to use Java (for the GUI bit) 16:43:41 pkhuong: However, it doesn't say so: "forms" is linked to "form" in the glossary, with no separate entry for the plural. 16:43:41 rsynnott: abcl 16:43:49 oh, that works on Dalvik?! 16:43:57 rsynnott: no, that's the discussion heh 16:44:01 ah, right 16:44:08 *rsynnott* should have read up more :) 16:44:27 Okay, so develop on the JVM, deploy on Dalvik. Straightforward, provided ABCL is not constructing class bodies on the fly. 16:44:34 jcowan: It says so in the Arguments and Values section. 16:44:45 jcowan: it doesn't. 16:44:53 -!- zmv__ is now known as zmv 16:44:56 jdz [~jdz@host225-69-dynamic.54-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:45:05 jcowan: I already discossed that with, hmm... easyE 16:45:16 All good. 16:45:39 loke, btw just recalled that SPF is the main such interface, if you can get that going should help 16:45:42 Not really different, then, from compiling to C and deploying on a platform where there is a C compiler but no Lisp. 16:45:45 I was also told that the java interfacing API is not used internally, so it can safely be rewrited to talk to an external Dalvik during development 16:46:18 pkhuong: Ah, I see. Thanks. 16:46:24 It's essentially just one source file in ABCL that would need rewriting to get that stuff to work 16:47:03 abcl probably also has a large chunk of class library that would need dexed and made omnipresent 16:47:13 oGMo: yes, correct 16:47:20 i believe that was the main issue with clojure(/scala) 16:47:33 one other possibility would be using a native code lisp (ecl?), and talking to a webview through a java wrapper 16:47:46 rsynnott: or just using the C api in 2.3 16:47:51 this is apparently what people usually do if they want a gui using the android scripting environment 16:47:54 oGMo: the APK builder could, however, just generate one huge chunk of class files and just have everything run though the standard APK builder (which does the dexing) 16:48:00 oGMo: does that give access to the GUI stuff? 16:48:22 rsynnott: basic level and growing 16:48:23 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:48:28 rsynnott: gl at least, which is enough for me heh 16:48:38 ah, I hadn't realised that; thought the new stuff there was just opengl and touch events 16:49:08 loke: yes though i vaguely recall some other issue which has made this not happen already 16:49:22 rsynnott: there is OpenSL ES as well 16:49:29 I'm using it in my current Android project 16:49:31 I was asking because the R7RS Scheme committee has adopted WHEN (and UNLESS) and is debating whether to return the values of the last form, or an unspecified value if the test passes. Failure already returns an unspecified value. 16:49:45 xan_ [~xan@63.166.156.179] has joined #lisp 16:50:07 should that be normative for CL? 16:50:36 jcowan: that sounds annoying. I'm often taking advantage of the fact that WHEN returns nil or the last form. 16:50:41 or anti-normative? 16:51:24 Scheme divides nil into three things: (), #f, and "an unspecified value", depending on its purpose. 16:52:31 jcowan: I know, and that's one of the things I don't like about Scheme 16:53:21 I'm arguing that Scheme's WHEN and UNLESS can't be relied upon to return a value, and thus might as well return undefined values in all cases. 16:53:30 s/a value/a meaningful value 16:55:10 s/undefined values/an undefined value 16:55:20 But I'm not here to argue, only to inquire. 16:55:33 -!- jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:58:12 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:58:47 zmv__ [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has joined #lisp 16:59:32 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:00:27 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@ip68-109-29-26.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:01:31 -!- agspathis [~user@ppp-94-64-168-153.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:01:36 seangrove [~user@c-98-248-33-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:58 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:02:12 -!- shaggy- [~shaggy@76.73.16.26] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)] 17:02:31 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@ip68-109-29-26.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:43 carlocci [~nes@93.37.195.234] has joined #lisp 17:03:52 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:03:57 kushal [~kdas@114.143.161.70] has joined #lisp 17:03:57 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.161.70] has quit [Changing host] 17:03:57 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 17:04:29 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 17:08:53 -!- gkeith_lt [~gkeith@74-93-184-209-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:13:30 -!- Siliconjesus [~Jeremy@henle2.scs.uiuc.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:16:07 CrazyEddy [~prude@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 17:19:37 pnq [~nick@AC8137F3.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 17:19:58 zmv [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has joined #lisp 17:20:24 -!- zmv is now known as Guest44133 17:22:26 -!- zmv__ [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:26:11 -!- jdz [~jdz@host225-69-dynamic.54-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:27:07 Siliconjesus [~Jeremy@host-8-174.ilcu3rd.clients.pavlovmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:30:40 -!- ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 17:40:57 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-219-182.w90-54.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:41:46 zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has joined #lisp 17:42:12 -!- zmv_ is now known as Guest67367 17:44:05 -!- Guest44133 [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:49:47 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-133.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:50:05 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-181-173.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 17:53:28 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:54:18 -!- xan_ [~xan@63.166.156.179] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:00:56 yakov [~yakov@ip-83-149-3-193.nwgsm.ru] has joined #lisp 18:03:35 zmv [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has joined #lisp 18:04:00 -!- zmv is now known as Guest24914 18:05:06 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 18:06:04 -!- Guest67367 [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:09:10 kslt1` [~user@netblock-208-127-156-174.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 18:09:55 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:11:49 -!- Guest24914 is now known as zmv 18:12:58 -!- ksierka [~user@netblock-208-127-156-174.dslextreme.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:12:58 -!- kslt1` [~user@netblock-208-127-156-174.dslextreme.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:13:36 -!- yakov [~yakov@ip-83-149-3-193.nwgsm.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:16:49 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-181-173.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:49 Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-219-182.w90-54.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:19:53 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:19:59 kslt1` [~user@netblock-208-127-156-174.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 18:22:06 -!- taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:22:41 -!- Siliconjesus [~Jeremy@host-8-174.ilcu3rd.clients.pavlovmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:23:00 Hello, Dragons! 18:23:37 Anyone care to comment on whether this is a proper use of setf: http://paste.lisp.org/+2NCR 18:24:02 aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 18:25:28 looks legit 18:25:43 Great! 18:25:45 although "set-pathname" is a strange name 18:26:10 I'm not sure about returning multiple values from the setf function 18:26:18 it will work, it's just going to be unexpected 18:26:18 -!- aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 18:26:26 set-pth is even more strange 18:26:30 "(defun set-posix-working-directory (set-pathname) &key (as-pathname nil)"? 18:26:48 usually, you should return the value that the place was set to 18:26:53 Is that first closing paren misplaced? 18:27:10 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:27:23 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:27:40 mon_key: set-posix-working-directory looks like it has a bogus call to zerop to me. 18:27:45 bandu [kvirc@pool-71-164-242-237.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:45 -!- bandu [kvirc@pool-71-164-242-237.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:27:45 bandu [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 18:27:53 Bike: yes and the reader conditional is borked too... Sorry i elided a bunch of other shite you guys wouldn't have been friendly too :) 18:28:08 Xach: it is as presnted. 18:28:14 should be #-sbcl 18:28:17 the first 18:30:02 zmv [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has joined #lisp 18:30:12 Now with the junk: http://paste.lisp.org/+2NCR/1 18:30:52 mon_key: There's a bigger-picture problem if you want portability. 18:31:39 mon_key: ccl for example uses escape characters for pathname namestrings. it provides a function to get the "native" namestring that can be passed to e.g. system calls 18:32:33 Xach: Ok. 18:32:59 It might be the case that the chdir routines of various lisps handle that automatically for you. 18:33:28 Xach: oh! so you have to write the escaped input in the #p"" input? (on ccl?) 18:34:32 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:34:42 ehu: not necessarily. but on roundtripping you might get escaped stuff back. 18:35:03 for example, #p"foo.bar.baz" might become #p"foo>.bar.baz" or similar 18:36:08 http://clozure.com/pipermail/openmcl-devel/2011-May/012811.html - i was wrong about the function not being exported 18:38:06 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:38:18 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:46 -!- La0fer [~Laofers1@64.120.233.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:39:30 srid [~srid@remote.activestate.com] has joined #lisp 18:39:40 -!- srid [~srid@remote.activestate.com] has quit [Changing host] 18:39:40 srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has joined #lisp 18:41:05 Siliconjesus [~Jeremy@henle2.scs.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 18:42:48 Xach: So this: (ccl::%chdir (ccl:native-translated-namestring set-pathname)) 18:43:50 mon_key: i don't know if ccl::%chdir does that translation for you or not. 18:44:02 OK. Thanks for the input! 18:44:31 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@2620:0:2820:b03:214:22ff:fe45:5204] has joined #lisp 18:45:45 n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@46.158.200.213] has joined #lisp 18:46:16 zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has joined #lisp 18:48:02 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 18:48:36 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:48:46 -!- zmv_ is now known as zmv 18:52:00 gkeith_lt [~gkeith@67.23.204.2] has joined #lisp 18:55:26 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:58:06 -!- gkeith_lt [~gkeith@67.23.204.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:00:10 gkeith_lt [~gkeith@67.23.204.2] has joined #lisp 19:04:35 SuChek [~SuChek@62-47-203-101.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 19:04:43 -!- SuChek [~SuChek@62-47-203-101.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Changing host] 19:04:43 SuChek [~SuChek@unaffiliated/suchek] has joined #lisp 19:05:13 zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has joined #lisp 19:05:13 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:05:36 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:06:52 -!- SuChek_ [~SuChek@unaffiliated/suchek] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:08:43 -!- Navarr [~navarr@ec2-174-129-205-205.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has left #lisp 19:08:51 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:10:36 -!- kslt1` [~user@netblock-208-127-156-174.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:10:41 -!- gkeith_lt [~gkeith@67.23.204.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:16:47 littlebobby [~bob@unaffiliated/littlebobby] has joined #lisp 19:19:17 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.116.187] has joined #lisp 19:20:18 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.116.187] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:20:34 is there a more sane way to split a string of digits into a list of digits (integers) than (map 'list #'(lambda (c) (- (char-int c) 48)) "12345")? 19:20:39 Vivitron [~user@pool-71-174-61-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:53 (map 'list 'digit-char-p string) 19:21:00 Xach: I love you :-) 19:23:17 i like you but i'm not *in* like with you. 19:23:34 rme [~rme@50.43.154.178] has joined #lisp 19:24:27 that's easy! (nreverse (loop with number = (parse-integer "12345") and rem do (setf (values number rem) (truncate number 10)) collect rem while (plusp number))) 19:24:53 And THAT is what LOOP does to you. 19:25:42 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-140-128.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:25:46 ChibaPet: looks more like abuse of some abhesive to me 19:25:57 Same thing. 19:27:42 -!- zmv_ is now known as zmv 19:28:14 ChibaPet: I am sick to death of knee-jerk anti-LOOPism and I am beginning to irrationally regard it as a plot to disable me as a programmer by excommunicating my useful tools. 19:28:40 you should put quotes on citations! 19:28:47 sorry 19:29:08 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 19:29:21 zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has joined #lisp 19:29:34 It's good knee exercise. :( But seriously, my love of Lisp is in part because of its uniform syntax, which LOOP destroys. Same with FORMAT. 19:29:47 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:29:55 -!- zmv_ is now known as zmv 19:30:08 My love for Lisp is the fact that I can break that uniformity when I need to, and it's still Lisp. :) 19:30:09 (Yates and Orlikowski) 19:30:38 although I'm not sure who the original quote is from 19:30:57 ChibaPet: I like iterate because it solves pretty much all my loop complaints, while still letting me use loop 19:31:08 http://ccs.mit.edu/papers/CCSWP150.html 19:31:25 I like format because a better template hasn't come around and is unlikely to 19:31:48 -!- markskil1eck [~mark@host86-141-74-144.range86-141.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:33:51 I like printf better. nice and simple. :) 19:34:07 here, a better way, without NREVERSE: (loop with number = (parse-integer "12345") and rem for powers = (expt 10 (floor (log number 10d0))) then (/ powers 10) do (setf (values rem number) (truncate number (print powers))) collect rem while (plusp (print number))) 19:34:24 disregard that PRINT 19:34:29 dlowe: OUT? 19:34:30 This is going to destroy stassats` day. 19:36:31 ChibaPet: luckily, i can't think of a better version 19:36:52 pkhuong: OUT occupies an uncomfortable middle ground between FORMAT and WITH-OUTPUT-TO-STRING that has the advantages of neither and the disadvantages of both 19:37:39 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-006-040.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:38:38 If I'm using some sort of template, I want the computation outside the template itself so that the template is easy to grasp 19:39:02 stassats`, it's there working in the back of your brain now, stealing cycles that could be more usefully spent. You know that there's a better version floating about, and your brain will hunt for it now despite your wishes. 19:40:18 i know there isn't! 19:40:27 it's as good as it gets 19:40:58 though, i'm sure some newbie will beat it, but it's the most sane insane version 19:41:16 heh 19:42:43 (fmt nil ("test: " (string a) (integer b) newline) :a "foo" :b 42) might be an interesting lispy alternative 19:42:57 -!- fsntation [~fsntation@212.174.109.55] has quit [K-Lined] 19:43:31 but is it really any better than (format nil "test: ~a~d~%" "foo" 42)? 19:44:17 how would you express "~@[~a-~]~d" ? 19:44:48 one of the most common "complex" format expressions i use 19:45:30 (fmt nil ((notnull a (string a) "-") (integer d)) ...) 19:45:35 I mean, you could make it work 19:46:42 *stassats`* knows what he likes better 19:46:42 the question is whether or not it's an improvement 19:47:22 (fmt nil ((when a (string a) "-") (integer d)) :a "foo" :d 23) 19:47:46 actually, if you're going to use keyword arguments for all parameters 19:47:51 (fmt nil (when a (string a) "-") (integer d) :a "foo" :d 23) 19:48:13 that's hard to read 19:48:34 you'll get no argument from me 19:49:06 The whole point is that a "lispy" version of format doesn't sound that great 19:49:09 lars__ [2669c8fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.38.105.200.252] has joined #lisp 19:49:13 -!- lars__ is now known as sral 19:49:32 *stassats`* still hasn't come up with a format string which prints fibonacci numbers 19:49:48 d2biG [p@bofh.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 19:50:38 I just dislike OOP, can I learn lisp without learning CLOS? 19:50:55 sral: How are the two parts of your sentence related? 19:51:10 -!- dRbiG [p@bofh.edu.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:51:22 you can, but you also can learn to put your preconceptions aside 19:51:39 sral: OOP in the way you probably know it is -very- different from the way it's incarnated in CLOS. 19:51:54 sral: you can pretend CLOS isn't object oriented, but you'll still end up using it. 19:52:32 CLOS is probably closer to Haskell's type classes than 'classic' OO. 19:52:33 i'm reading PCL recently. I found it's much harder than learning haskell. 19:53:01 and yeah, it's pretty much pervasive -- you can't really get away from CLOS. 19:53:11 concepts are fragmented. and in haskell it just functions and types. 19:53:29 ILTWYS"J" 19:53:41 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:53:44 sral: that's a pretty funny simplification of Haskell. 19:53:58 stassats`: "I like the way you say 'Java'"? 19:54:12 "Just" 19:54:50 zmv [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has joined #lisp 19:55:40 are monads functions or types? 19:56:21 Isn't monad a type class? 19:57:48 monads are type class. 19:57:54 *classes 19:58:29 sral: sounds like you just have an allergy to the word "object", to me. 19:58:53 He objects to it. 19:59:05 i don't understand what is object. it is very clear what is value, type and function. 19:59:05 In Lisp, every value is an object. But classes only have instances, no object. 19:59:10 in Lisp, everything is just atoms an lists 19:59:40 sral: an object is a value. 20:00:28 if monads are types, then it's not very clear to me what is a type 20:01:38 they're not types, they're type classes! 20:01:41 duh. 20:01:59 sral: you can easily learn lisp without ever using defclass & its generated constructors 20:02:24 why you would is beyond me. 20:02:36 anyway, Common Lisp is designed for grown ups who are able to comprehend different abstractions 20:02:52 and brainfuck is for kids, it's very simple and consistent 20:03:14 but you do want to learn CL's multimethod dispatch, even if you don't create your own CLOS heirarchies 20:03:49 sykopomp: because it's beyond your agenda? 20:04:06 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-151-175.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:04:19 stassats`: I've blocked off meeting time with DEFCLASS in every day of my agenda for the next few years. 20:04:48 stassats`: but no, I'm talking more about explicitly avoiding even learning how defclass works. 20:05:07 oh, I totally misread. Disregard my last statement. 20:05:41 -!- elliottcable [~elliottca@ec2-174-129-205-205.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:06:13 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@ip68-109-29-26.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:06:28 elliottcable [~elliottca@ec2-174-129-205-205.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 20:06:37 like "i won't touch anything with "class" or "object" in its name" maxim 20:07:22 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@web30.webfaction.com] has left #lisp 20:07:37 (defmacro defrecord (&body body) `(defclass ,@body)) fix'd? 20:08:08 add "or their synonyms" 20:08:35 I guess you should stop using lambda, then :< 20:08:52 sral: so do structures also violate your non-OOP requirement? 20:09:47 foocraft [~ewanas@78.101.17.96] has joined #lisp 20:09:59 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 20:10:08 structure? 20:10:21 data structure with named slots 20:10:29 you mean like tuple, tree? 20:10:42 (defstruct person name address zip whatever) 20:10:48 (make-person ... details) 20:11:05 can anyone give me some pointers on how to convert a pathname to a list? 20:11:14 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:11:16 haskell & ML support algebric data types, i think it's more comprehensive than what you said. 20:11:27 phryk: what kind of list? 20:11:55 a simple list of strings if possible 20:12:06 phryk: what would an example input and output be? 20:12:24 of i have #P "foo/bar" i'd like to get (list "foo" "bar" 20:12:35 s/of/if/ 20:13:01 why do you want that? 20:13:05 you can define a person type as: Male of (Body, Penis) | Female of (Body, Breast) 20:13:27 do you want files included or only directories? 20:13:31 so the compiler can make sure you will never mess sex and parts up 20:13:52 sral: it's not the place for ML or haskell advocacy 20:14:05 stassats`: i am writing some webstuff in lisp, i check a directory for files and want to create valid links to those 20:14:22 stassats`: i want files included 20:14:46 -!- seangrove [~user@c-98-248-33-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:15:12 zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has joined #lisp 20:15:38 phryk: (list (pathname-host p) (pathname-device p) (pathname-directory p) (pathname-name p) (pathname-type p) (pathname-version p)) 20:15:56 ((lambda (pathname) (append (cdr (pathname-directory pathname)) (list (file-namestring pathname)))) #P "foo/bar") => ("foo" "bar") 20:16:44 pjb: pathname-directory can return something like "foo/bar/bleh" iirc 20:16:49 stassats`: mom I'll look at that 20:16:52 phryk: no it cannot. 20:17:00 stassats` is a mommy! 20:17:22 getting rid of the empty string in case of absent pathname-name and pathname-type is left as an exercise to the reader 20:17:49 sykopomp: it's just "wow" upside down 20:17:52 phryk: if an implementation does that, then you should complain. 20:18:08 Okay, I just wasn't sure. 20:18:23 phryk: otherwise you can always write #+unix (split-sequence #\/ (namestring p)) 20:18:54 pjb: I have no idea what that does, but: Would that work on machines that use a different path notation than unix? 20:19:02 No. 20:19:02 pjb: (cdr (pathname-directory (make-pathname :directory '(:relative "/foo/bar/etc")))) => ("/foo/bar/etc") 20:19:11 pjb: That's what I'd like to avoid 20:19:18 is object simply structured data or the wierd thing in c++? 20:19:21 #-unix (error "Please it implement for this machine." 20:19:37 phryk: the use the pathname component accessors as I shown above. 20:20:20 stassats`: What I mean is that an implementation that does that should be avoided. Complain to the vendor. 20:20:48 sral: structured data. 20:20:55 It's just a record. 20:20:57 what i showed is a perfectly valid answer, i would avoid an implementation which does otherwise 20:21:04 -!- sonnym1 [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:21:30 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:21:44 stassats`: I'd expect an error in make-pathname. 20:21:45 pjb: oh that's good 20:21:51 pjb: thank's just using pathname-directory and pathname-name will do fine :) 20:22:15 pjb: why? it may be a valid pathname on VMS 20:22:18 or something 20:22:41 phryk: it won't do fine. You need the type. On MS-Windows you need to add the device. On other file systems you may need the host and/or the version. 20:23:11 phryk: doesn't what i showed work for you? 20:23:13 stassats`: Yes, on other plateforms. But not on unix. 20:23:24 stassats`: I'm slow give me some time^^ 20:23:36 Hurry! It's scrolling up! 20:24:40 sral: the only "weird thing" that C++ adds to plain structs to make a class is a function table pointer. It's still just simply structured data 20:24:40 pjb: it does work 20:24:51 s/class/object instance/ 20:25:10 now i'll have my brain parse what you did there 20:26:12 pjb: For building links for a webapplication, it will work even on a windows 20:27:32 -!- pavelludiq [~pavelludi@87.246.58.193] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:28:00 Phoodus: everything is simple once you know how it works 20:29:23 I'm just saying that there's no great gulf between C structs and C++ objects 20:30:33 also sral, it does make me think that you're avoiding OOP out of not understanding it, if C++ objects go all "weird magic" to you :-/ 20:31:19 tessier [~treed@216.105.40.125] has joined #lisp 20:31:41 -!- foocraft [~ewanas@78.101.17.96] has quit [Quit: wrong butan..] 20:32:15 zmv___ [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has joined #lisp 20:33:00 -!- scottj [~scott@206.212.250.58] has left #lisp 20:34:24 -!- zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:35:45 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-133.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:35:49 zmv [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has joined #lisp 20:36:11 -!- zmv___ [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has quit [Client Quit] 20:37:11 -!- srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:38:05 HG`` [~HG@p5DC05E8C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:11 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC0533B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:43:26 pavelludiq [~pavelludi@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 20:43:52 -!- sral [2669c8fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.38.105.200.252] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:43:52 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@ip68-109-29-26.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:30 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:47:01 zmv [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has joined #lisp 20:49:16 How do I transform a relative pathname to a absolute one in Common Lisp? I can't seem to find anything besides some elisp post about a function that cl doesn't provide. 20:50:12 what does that mean ? 20:51:34 (merge-pathnames #P"foo/bar" #"/") => #P"/foo/bar" 20:52:09 or truename, assuming that the file exists 20:52:21 fe[nl]ix: how do i get the truename? 20:52:28 that's basically what I'm trying to do 20:52:38 clhs truename 20:52:38 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_tn.htm 20:52:43 ah there's a function for it :) 20:52:55 didn't find it under file-* or path* ^^ 20:53:24 although it will resolve symlinks as well 20:53:34 zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has joined #lisp 20:55:09 (merge-pathnames #P"foo/bar" (truename *default-pathname-defaults*)) 20:55:22 -!- zqwell [~kafergots@FL1-119-241-244-73.chb.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:55:33 (without TRUENAME it won't work on CCL) 20:56:26 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:57:22 -!- serichsen [~user@hmbg-4d069726.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Good night!] 20:57:43 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:00:28 ngz [~user@209.141.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:55 nowl [~nowl@c-71-233-2-216.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:20 -!- __class__ [~class@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:02:15 -!- eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:04:23 __class__ [~class@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:03 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:05:07 -!- nowl [~nowl@c-71-233-2-216.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:07:45 -!- zmv_ is now known as zmv 21:10:36 -!- elliottcable is now known as sadcollie 21:13:41 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8137F3.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:14:11 -!- EarlGray [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:15:33 zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has joined #lisp 21:17:25 -!- HG`` [~HG@p5DC05E8C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:19:22 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:21:49 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:22:33 -!- zmv_ is now known as zmv 21:24:20 xristos [~x@ec2-107-20-233-212.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 21:26:38 mon_key: ccl:current-directory returns the lisp's current directory (in the operating system sense) as a pathname. It can also be used with setf to change the current directory. 21:27:35 -!- npoektop [~npoektop@ip-46-73-50-153.bb.netbynet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:29:08 MimiEA [~Mimi@97-88-6-2.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:29:34 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.195.234] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:33:27 alex` [~alex@p549B4AEF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:39 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:38:24 zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has joined #lisp 21:38:58 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has quit [Disconnected by services] 21:39:05 -!- zmv_ is now known as zmv 21:40:44 jacek [~jacek@94-192-215-71.zone6.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:41:09 hi 21:41:24 any chance for help with cl-gtk2 ? 21:42:10 Best bet is to simply ask your question, although I'm not sure who here if anyone uses that at the moment. 21:46:13 -!- blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:47:26 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-219-182.w90-54.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:49:41 ympbyc [~ympbyc@122-57-179-116.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:50:26 -!- alex` [~alex@p549B4AEF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:52:18 (within-main-loop 21:52:18 (let-ui (gtk-window :title "Hello" :position :center :default-width 400 :var w 21:52:18 (v-box 21:52:18 (menu-bar 21:52:18 (menu-item :label "File" ) 21:52:19 (menu-item :label "Edit" ) 21:52:22 (menu-item :label "Help" :var help ) ;Help 21:52:24 ) ;menu-bar 21:52:32 how do i add submenu items? 21:53:07 don't paste into the channel 21:53:13 ooops 21:53:43 can i use http://www.webfilehost.com or similar? 21:54:17 http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp 21:59:19 done, i hope 21:59:29 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:59:45 sadly, our bots are gone and there's nobody to announce the URL 22:00:00 http://paste.lisp.org/display/123583 22:00:03 zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has joined #lisp 22:00:31 i don't know a thing about cl-gtk2, i only can comment on your code formatting 22:00:49 any comments welcome 22:00:49 you shouldn't leave closing parenthesis on their own lines 22:00:59 gkeith_lt [~gkeith@67.23.203.254] has joined #lisp 22:01:06 stassats`: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-gtk2/doc/gtk/menu_002ditem.html says that a menu-item can have a :submenu slot? 22:01:11 errm, jacek. 22:01:38 i was trying let-ui route 22:01:49 -!- sadcollie is now known as elliottcable 22:01:59 will try conventional way tomorrow 22:02:41 maybe you can just pass the :submenu thing to the menu-item thingy 22:03:01 -!- ASau [~user@95-27-147-30.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:03:01 inferior lisp hangs :-( 22:03:11 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:05:10 OliverUv [~gandhi@195.159.235.178] has joined #lisp 22:08:34 -!- ngz [~user@209.141.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:08:43 -!- Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-17-38.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:09:38 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:13:51 vert2 [~vert2@newshell1.bshellz.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:17 `/quit 22:14:19 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@p4FCDE8B9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 22:15:54 -!- SuChek [~SuChek@unaffiliated/suchek] has left #lisp 22:17:10 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:18:32 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:19:58 -!- gkeith_lt [~gkeith@67.23.203.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:20:04 -!- ocharles [u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vzkomqsevannejxp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:20:11 -!- vert2 [~vert2@newshell1.bshellz.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:20:36 vert2 [~vert2@newshell1.bshellz.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:05 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:22:24 zmv [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has joined #lisp 22:24:34 -!- zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:24:38 gkeith_lt [~gkeith@67.23.203.254] has joined #lisp 22:28:03 kslt2 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-174.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 22:28:26 rme: OK. Thanks! 22:29:04 -!- jacek [~jacek@94-192-215-71.zone6.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:29:08 hba [~hba@187.171.200.6] has joined #lisp 22:33:31 ASau [~user@95-27-147-30.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 22:34:38 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:35:17 Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-16-175.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:09 -!- rme [rme@FDA5E34D.ED8853D8.699BA7A6.IP] has quit [Ping timeout] 22:36:13 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 22:37:42 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.154.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:38:08 -!- OliverUv [~gandhi@195.159.235.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:39:45 srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has joined #lisp 22:39:49 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 22:40:02 taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:39 -!- gkeith_lt [~gkeith@67.23.203.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:40:44 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 22:41:18 -!- lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:43:36 ocharles [u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uyafccywxtjppbay] has joined #lisp 22:43:55 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:45:38 mindCrime [~chatzilla@64.134.184.6] has joined #lisp 22:46:12 zmv [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has joined #lisp 22:49:58 -!- ocharles [u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uyafccywxtjppbay] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:50:14 ocharles [u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-emtspyogaomkyhcq] has joined #lisp 22:56:22 -!- ocharles [u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-emtspyogaomkyhcq] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:57:28 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755055.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:58:56 nicdev_ [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:02:30 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:02:45 ISF [~ivan@187.106.54.41] has joined #lisp 23:03:29 orivej [~orivej@91.79.210.46] has joined #lisp 23:04:44 Mococa [~Mococa@187.59.249.188] has joined #lisp 23:06:12 zmv [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has joined #lisp 23:07:00 Evanescence [~chris@122.237.7.174] has joined #lisp 23:11:26 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@ip68-109-29-26.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:12:20 sral [cfed4bef@gateway/web/freenode/ip.207.237.75.239] has joined #lisp 23:12:41 ehine1 [~ericyoda@cpe-69-205-154-161.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:13:48 is there any way to use RANDOM in an array, for example...(make-array 4 :initial-contents (random 10))...I would like each element in the array to be a random number. 23:14:04 that gives an error. 23:14:58 map-into 23:15:19 (map-into (make-array 4) (lambda () (random 10))) 23:15:24 ty, should have thought about that 23:17:18 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.59.249.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:17:27 gkeith_lt [~gkeith@74-93-184-209-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:45 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.116.187] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:19:46 how is array defined in lisp? 23:19:57 mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:57 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:19:57 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 23:20:44 "An array contains a set of objects called elements that can be referenced individually according to a rectilinear coordinate system."? 23:21:11 grr [~grr@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 23:21:47 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:22:30 -!- Kryztof [~user@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:22:34 It would be funny to define a kind of array with curve coordinates, or polar coordinates. 23:22:35 how can list do linear time reference? 23:22:36 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 23:22:41 Yes. 23:23:42 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: JuanDaugherty] 23:24:27 sral: (nth i list) or (elt list i) are O(length(list)) - linear time reference. 23:24:44 can quicklisp systems be shared among more implementations? 23:24:45 -!- levi [~user@c-174-52-219-147.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:25:04 sral: It's done this way: (defun nth (i list) (cond ((null list) nil) ((zerop i) (car list)) (t (nth (1- i) (cdr list))))) 23:25:16 pjb: oh sorry, i meant O(1) time reference 23:25:22 sral: and: (defun elt (seq i) (if (listp seq) (nth i seq) ...)) 23:25:27 sral: it cannot. 23:25:29 See above. 23:27:10 I have one more question, using the map-into that pjb listed above, is there anyway to use that with a two-dimensional array? If I do anything more than a one-dimensional array it all goes wrong :P 23:27:31 so what if we do need a data structure with constant time reference? 23:27:42 ehine1: yes, you can displace the multidimensional array to a sequence and map to that sequence. 23:27:50 s/sequence/vector/g 23:28:00 I've just installed clozure and got quicklisp working with it, but it can't access any of the system's i've downloaded through clisp. I've tried fetching cl-ppcre again in clozure, it updated the files, and I can load it now, but can't load any other libraries. is there anything I can do to avoid reloading all the libraries i already have 23:28:03 sral: then you use an array. 23:28:14 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:28:59 pjb: how is array implemented in lisp? 23:29:11 sral: just like in any other programming language. 23:29:23 There's more than one way to implement arrays? 23:29:38 (let ((a (make-array '(3 4 5)))) (map-into (make-array (reduce '* (array-dimensions a)) :element-type (array-element-type a) :displaced-to a) (lambda () (random 10))) a) 23:29:45 drdo: yes. 23:29:52 pjb: What are they? 23:29:54 You can choose row major or column major indexing. 23:30:03 pjb: I meant one-dimensional arrays 23:30:11 those are called vectors. 23:30:15 And row major vs column major indexing is a trivial difference 23:30:31 You can invent variants, but it's futile. 23:31:29 thanks pjb 23:32:21 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-140-208.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:41 *sykopomp* added WAI-ARIA-related attributes to yaclml. Wonders who to contact about it. 23:32:58 hmmm... i just found i dunno how is array implemented in haskell, maybe by compiler. 23:33:30 Mococa [~Mococa@187.59.249.188] has joined #lisp 23:34:03 i dunno if it is possible to implement array in purely functional way 23:34:17 sral: it's possible, but strange. 23:34:36 Here is an array of two elements: (lambda (a d) (lambda (s) (funcall s a d))) 23:35:00 Well, more precisely that function constructs an array of two elements. 23:35:27 ((lambda (a d) (lambda (s) (funcall s a d))) 1 2) --> # is an example. 23:36:14 pjb: I think he meant immutable 23:36:16 To refer the first one: (funcall ((lambda (a d) (lambda (s) (funcall s a d))) 1 2) (lambda (a d) a)) --> 1 23:36:29 To refer the first second one: (funcall ((lambda (a d) (lambda (s) (funcall s a d))) 1 2) (lambda (a d) d)) --> 2 23:36:37 sometimes called persistent, but i hate that term 23:36:39 This is immutable. 23:37:14 In purely functional programming everything is immutable. 23:37:54 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-74-67-199-254.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:38:03 ocharles [u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hqkjrwqfvvvuktaz] has joined #lisp 23:38:11 pjb: but how to do something like from_list : 'a list -> 'a array ? 23:38:12 Now, the problem of purel functional arrays, is that you cannot create them with an unbounded size. For example, you couldn't convert a list into an array, because you could always have lists of bigger size than the maximum array size expected. 23:38:16 pjb: Yes, that's what he meant i think, there's no need to resort to  calculus to implement immutable arrays 23:38:17 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@64.134.184.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:38:30 sral: map 23:38:47 sral: that is, if you expect from array to have O(1) access times. 23:38:59 (map 'vector #'identity '(1 2 3 4)) => #(1 2 3 4) 23:39:00 sral: if you forget about that expectation, arrays are just functions. 23:39:18 Well, in lisp (coerce list 'vector) 23:39:58 Didn't know you could do that 23:40:39 It might be better to write (make-array (length list) :element-type 'some-type :initial-contents list) if you want a vector of a specific type. 23:41:47 yes, Array can't be implemented in pure Haskell with the desired performance guarantees 23:42:02 yeah, i think it's a trick by GHC 23:44:42 foocraft [~ewanas@178.152.100.186] has joined #lisp 23:52:07 zmv [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has joined #lisp 23:52:33 -!- benny [~benny@i577A79DD.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:53:27 -!- pavelludiq [~pavelludi@87.246.58.193] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:53:41 -!- Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:55:42 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:56:54 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-140-208.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:57:09 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:58:02 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-140-208.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp