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[Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:03:09 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:05:58 -!- rstandy [~rastandy@net-2-32-230-9.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:25:08 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 04:26:35 Hunden [~Hunden@e180097206.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 04:28:35 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:30:53 -!- Hundenn [~Hunden@e180103053.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:36:40 CheckIn [46b3a543@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.179.165.67] has joined #lisp 04:36:51 Hello? 04:36:58 ?olleH 04:37:06 Hola? 04:37:12 Bonjour? salut? 04:37:15 Ni hao? 04:37:15 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-148-217.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 04:37:20 Konbanwa? 04:37:25 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:37:31 Annyeong haseyo? 04:37:37 Buon Giorno? 04:37:40 Guten tag?\ 04:37:51 IS ANYONE AWAKE OUT THERE? 04:38:11 -!- BrianRice [~water@97-126-48-96.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: BrianRice] 04:38:11 hello 04:38:46 (sooo... OS X Lion drops Rosetta. that's bad news for MCLIDE users )-:) 04:38:52 So, what causes the speech impediment in the first place? 04:39:11 CheckIn: wrong lisp 04:39:35 what's the right channel for it then, pnq? 04:40:11 SailorReality [~IceChat7@74.198.150.43] has joined #lisp 04:40:30 How do I declare an array of integers that's 5 long? 04:40:42 CheckIn: freenode hosts mainly channels related to free/open source software projects & the OSS community. my guess is "not on this network" 04:40:50 SailorReality: 5 long? 04:41:12 integers obviously 04:41:13 -!- ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:41:35 SailorReality: you mean digits? 04:41:39 SailorReality: if so, in which base? 04:41:52 I thought it was an academic network. I knew #wikipedia had to be here for SOME reason. 04:41:53 no, I'm pretty sure I mean integers. Wow, deaf and dumb 04:42:04 But as a wiki, it's an openly-edited system 04:42:12 SailorReality: I don't get it. what would be the range of those numbers? 04:42:33 CheckIn: mostly for the open culture aspect, I guess. 04:42:41 makes sense. thx. 04:43:10 -!- CheckIn [46b3a543@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.179.165.67] has left #lisp 04:43:48 SailorReality: oh my. I completely misread your question. (: 04:43:54 SailorReality: you're right, deaf and dumb (: 04:44:16 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 04:44:39 antifuchs: an INTEGER. 0-4294967296 04:44:46 SailorReality: the type specifier for the array is (array integer 5) 04:45:06 (I missed the word "array" there... thought you were asking how to declare an integer that is 5 long. *facepalm*) 04:46:04 antifuchs: haha, thought you were trolling 04:46:07 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.34.89] has joined #lisp 04:46:08 (note that the integer declaration won't buy you much... could be better for performance if you can restrict the range of numbers in there to (unsigned-byte 8) 04:46:20 nah, genuinely misunderstanding. 04:46:51 check the upgraded-element-type of your arrays if you really want the declaration to have an effect on performance 04:46:53 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 04:47:04 k one last question: how do parenthesis work? 04:49:23 am0c [~am0c@211.49.101.189] has joined #lisp 04:49:25 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 04:50:20 eh, subtle bug: the type specifier is (array integer (5)) - the bounds need to be in a list; could be multi-dimensional after all 04:50:25 which parenthesis? 04:51:22 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:53:07 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-193-212.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:53:34 -!- sellout [~Adium@ALagny-751-1-37-125.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:53:50 sellout [~Adium@ALagny-751-1-37-125.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:58:18 antifuchs: like ( and ) 04:58:23 I've seen them used a lot 05:00:36 Wiallim [~Lambda@117.22.172.35] has joined #lisp 05:02:45 they tell the reader where a list starts and ends 05:03:29 check out a good lisp book like Practical Common Lisp, that explains it pretty much right at the beginning 05:03:47 ...better than I could (: 05:04:30 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:05:38 Hello? 05:06:02 I have a question. 05:06:57 -!- Evanescence [~chris@122.237.24.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:07:46 It is a pair that (cons 1 3). Is it a pair or list that (cons (list 1 2) (list 3 4))? 05:07:59 that's a tree (: 05:08:47 fourier` [~user@213.141.149.93] has joined #lisp 05:08:53 lists are just conses with a next cons. proper lists (per the definition from CL) are lists whose last cons ends in NIL 05:10:05 antifuchs: what does the CL mean? 05:10:12 Common Lisp 05:10:21 o 05:11:47 Wiallim, SailorReality: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 05:12:53 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:13:15 antifuchs: you mean is that if it is a list, it must be end with NIL? 05:13:28 nope, to be a "proper list". 05:14:05 to be a list (to satisfy the LISTP predicate), it's enough to be a cons or nil 05:14:30 I'm probably not helping you very much right now... best check out the book littlebobby just linked 05:14:44 littlebobby:thanks 05:15:02 LOL ASSPIE FAGGOTS LOL ASSPIE FAGGOTS LOL ASSPIE FAGGOTS LOL ASSPIE FAGGOTS 05:15:03 LOL ASSPIE FAGGOTS 05:15:03 LOL ASSPIE FAGGOTS 05:15:05 LOL ASSPIE FAGGOTSLOL ASSPIE FAGGOTSLOL ASSPIE FAGGOTSLOL ASSPIE FAGGOTSLOL ASSPIE FAGGOTSLOL ASSPIE FAGGOTSLOL ASSPIE FAGGOTSLOL ASSPIE FAGGOTSLOL ASSPIE FAGGOTSLOL ASSPIE FAGGOTSLOL ASSPIE FAGGOTSLOL ASSPIE FAGGOTS 05:15:09 LOL ASSPIE FAGGOTSLOL ASSPIE FAGGOTSLOL ASSPIE FAGGOTSvvLOL ASSPIE FAGGOTSLOL ASSPIE FAGGOTSLOL ASSPIE FAGGOTSvvLOL ASSPIE FAGGOTSLOL ASSPIE FAGGOTSLOL ASSPIE FAGGOTSLOL ASSPIE FAGGOTSvLOL ASSPIE FAGGOTSLOL ASSPIE FAGGOTSLOL ASSPIE FAGGOTSLOL ASSPIE FAGGOTSv 05:15:12 LOL ASSPIE FAGGOTSLOL ASSPIE FAGGOTSvLOL ASSPIE FAGGOTSvLOL ASSPIE FAGGOTSLOL ASSPIE FAGGOTSvLOL ASSPIE FAGGOTSLOL ASSPIE FAGGOTSLOL ASSPIE FAGGOTSvLOL ASSPIE FAGGOTSLOL ASSPIE FAGGOTS 05:15:16 suk my dick 05:15:49 ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has joined #lisp 05:15:51 theres no ops on 05:15:55 so im taking over your channel 05:15:59 this channel is now rogue 05:16:02 motherfucker 05:16:03 s 05:16:07 and that's how you start a productive day :-) 05:16:17 a relatively short lisp program would get you much more intelligible trollbait 05:16:59 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o antifuchs 05:17:04 -!- antifuchs has set mode +b *!~IceChat7@74.198.150.43 05:17:04 -!- SailorReality [~foobar@ec2-184-73-244-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has been kicked from #lisp by antifuchs (Your behavior is not conducive to the desired environment.) 05:17:09 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:17:31 thank god for that 05:17:44 -!- antifuchs has set mode -o antifuchs 05:17:59 where would we be without incompetent sociopaths 05:18:36 Nice kick message :) 05:19:02 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:00 antifuchs: why dose the (cons (list 1 2) (list 3 4)) return true that test with both list? and pair? 05:20:13 Wiallim: are you using scheme? 05:20:22 yes 05:20:22 Because it is both a pair and a list. 05:20:41 A list is an arrangement of pairs and a terminator. 05:20:44 Wiallim: I'm sure the people in #scheme would be better able to help you 05:20:59 common lisp is sufficiently different from scheme to cause confusion 05:21:26 ok. 05:21:45 Wiallim: still a list is different than a proper list. 05:22:42 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 05:22:56 what is still list and what is proper list 05:23:19 in your case it is still a proper list, just one that has a list as it's first element. 05:23:58 (listp '(1 2 3 . 4)) --> t. it is a list. 05:24:20 thanks. 05:24:21 but it is not a proper list because the last element is not nil. 05:24:45 I get it. thanks. :-) 05:25:19 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:25:21 -!- El_Diablo [~Aaron@adsl-68-88-201-24.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:25:50 Wiallim: keep in mind that '(1 . (2 . (3 . nil))) is a proper list. 05:26:55 dixon [~dixon@unaffiliated/reikon] has joined #lisp 05:28:03 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:29:52 tali713: thanks , now i have knew. 05:30:07 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-148-217.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:30:30 tali713: '(1 . (2 . (3 . nil))) also is a pair? 05:32:43 Kryztof [~user@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 05:33:35 Wiallim: the dot notation would imply that of course. and it's evaluation should make lists as clear as you can get. substituting () for nil in scheme. 05:33:44 i.e. '(1 . (2 . (4 . ()))) 05:34:56 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:35:07 -!- bhaskara [~user@c-98-248-43-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:35:16 tali713: what expressions make the '(1 . (2 . (4 . ())))? 05:35:27 Wiallim: (list? '(1 2 3 . 4)) => #f in Scheme, though. 05:35:37 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.63.155] has joined #lisp 05:35:58 -!- ArchMonkey [~ArchMonke@S0106001b63f2b998.ok.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: ArchMonkey] 05:36:04 Euthydmus: really? 05:36:10 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.63.155] has left #lisp 05:36:22 so scheme uses the definition "a list is either () or a pair whose cdr is a list" 05:37:32 Wiallim: '(1 . (2 . nil)) <- Two pairs. One proper list. 05:39:21 Wiallim: if you implementation doesn't define nil as '() it might be a good idea to do that. 05:40:22 Euthydemus: in my mit-scheme '(1 . (2 .nil)) is a pairs. 05:41:01 '(1 . whatever) is a pair. It just happens to keep another pair in the cdr. 05:41:29 s/'(1 . whatever)/'(1 . (2 . nil))/ 05:41:39 Wiallim: first in mit-scheme substitute () wherever you see the word nil. second, read my very simple definition of a list. 05:43:14 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-046-030.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:10 tessier [~treed@216.105.40.125] has joined #lisp 05:44:35 cyrillos_ [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has joined #lisp 05:44:52 Wiallim: (define x (cons 1 2)) <- what is x? 05:46:15 thanks everybody. I am reading SICP recently. but i never have learned any lisp books. 05:46:25 Euthydemus: x is (1 . 2) 05:46:37 Is it a proper list? 05:46:54 BrianRice [~water@97-126-48-96.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:46:59 no. 05:47:09 Is it a pair? 05:47:17 a proper list end with nil? 05:47:52 or (), equivalently. 05:48:15 yes, i know , and equivalently '() 05:48:15 (define y (cons 2 '())) <- pair? list? 05:48:19 and '() /is/ a proper list. 05:49:39 do not try to bend the list, the list is an illusion, there are only pairs. :) 05:49:42 Euthydemus: It is both pair and list ? 05:50:14 What does (list? y) and (pair? y) tell you? 05:50:38 Euthydemus: let me try. 05:51:43 Euthydemus: It is returned #t in my mit-scheme 05:52:09 Euthydemus: they are.... 05:52:30 Do you know what set-cdr! does? 05:52:33 -!- littlebobby [~bob@unaffiliated/littlebobby] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 05:53:13 -!- tessier [~treed@216.105.40.125] has quit [Changing host] 05:53:13 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #lisp 05:53:15 Euthydemus: i know set and cdr, but i not know set-cdr? 05:53:53 It changes what is stored in the cdr of a pair. 05:54:25 What is the best first book learn CL? 05:54:46 This is Scheme, btw. 05:54:50 Euthydemus: o, 05:55:07 PCL is recommended for CL. 05:55:56 set-cdr! is spelt with an exclamation mark. 05:56:40 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 05:57:34 I have a question. from SICP, that is 05:57:38 Write a procedure fringe that takes as argument a tree (represented as a list) and returns a list whose elements are all the leaves of the tree arranged in left-to-right order. 05:58:01 Wiallim: consider the definition i posed earlier stated another way. (define (proper-list? lst) (cond ((null? lst) #t) ((pair? lst) (proper-list? (cdr lst))) (else #f))) is this equivalent to list? 05:58:07 it is hard to me. 05:58:42 Wiallim: For Scheme you could try: http://www.htdp.org/ 05:59:07 Euthydemus: thanks 05:59:25 understand cons car and cdr and what a list is and what the definition is of a tree and it will become easy. 06:00:25 also #scheme would be better for sicp related questions. 06:00:26 Wiallim: I've never read it, though. But I'm sure #scheme can help. 06:01:20 ok. :-)) 06:01:21 Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-43-98.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:02:36 tcr [~tcr@77-58-246-74.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 06:03:47 -!- sellout [~Adium@ALagny-751-1-37-125.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:03:53 sellout1 [~Adium@ALagny-751-1-37-125.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:03:57 tali713: thanks your for helping me. 06:06:18 Which body read "Land lisp"? 06:08:30 sellout [~Adium@ALagny-751-1-37-125.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:08:42 Praetor [c913540f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.201.19.84.15] has joined #lisp 06:08:57 can anyone point me to a ABL GUI example? I can't find any. 06:09:00 ABCL GUI* 06:09:42 bey. good luck. 06:09:45 -!- Wiallim [~Lambda@117.22.172.35] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:11:45 -!- sellout1 [~Adium@ALagny-751-1-37-125.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:15:00 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:15:13 fasl files are placed in .cache/common-lisp/ccl-1.7-f95-macosx-x64, which often does not change. but slime put its fasl files in clozure-version_1.7-dev-r14895m-trunk__(darwinx8664)-darwin-x86-64 (for example), which changes for every trivial updates 06:15:16 ideas? 06:15:29 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-046-030.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:15:29 good morning 06:15:33 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ifcjmupqfdsbmbod] has joined #lisp 06:17:11 gz [~gz@209-6-49-85.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 06:18:15 -!- Praetor [c913540f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.201.19.84.15] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 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[~rswarbric@cpc1-cove3-0-0-cust941.3-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:30:13 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159933.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 07:30:31 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.112.85] has joined #lisp 07:31:08 parabolize [~paraboliz@203.83.50.36] has joined #lisp 07:32:45 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-88-31.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:34:05 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 07:34:06 trigen [c1aca602@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.172.166.2] has joined #lisp 07:34:22 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.112.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:39:36 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-148-199.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:40:50 peterhil` [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has joined #lisp 07:41:35 jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.45.136] has joined #lisp 07:42:11 e-user [~e-user@nat/nokia/x-zrvoaogmxfqgdwzy] has joined #lisp 07:42:40 kennyd [~kennyd@78-0-241-239.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 07:45:01 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-190-200.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:46:58 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.85] has joined #lisp 07:48:03 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.85] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:48:05 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.112.85] has joined #lisp 07:48:58 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.112.85] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:58:29 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host245-214-dynamic.7-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:58:56 Posterdati [~tapioca@host245-214-dynamic.7-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 07:59:45 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.34.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:59:45 I'm getting "index too large" error, and I see this happens because at some point I'm calling (elt #() 0). How can I see exactly which call to elt triggered the error? 08:02:02 -!- martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:08:33 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 08:09:28 gz` [~gz@209-6-49-85.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 08:10:14 daniel__1 [~daniel@p5B326DB3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:11:34 -!- daniel__2 [~daniel@p5B326143.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:13:45 sellout1 [~Adium@ALagny-751-1-7-227.w86-218.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:15:55 -!- sellout [~Adium@ALagny-751-1-37-125.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:17:25 hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:19:37 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 08:19:41 -!- cyrillos_ [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:28:10 tcr [~tcr@217-162-207-189.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:28:12 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:29:10 leo2007 [~leo@th041113.ip.tsinghua.edu.cn] has joined #lisp 08:32:14 Eataix [~Eataix@209.237.253.51] has joined #lisp 08:32:19 cyrillos_ [~cyrill@swsoft-msk-nat.sw.ru] has joined #lisp 08:34:35 -!- Eataix [~Eataix@209.237.253.51] has quit [Client Quit] 08:34:56 c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-irsrkyudnuzpfyze] has joined #lisp 08:46:12 ISF [~ivan@187.106.54.41] has joined #lisp 08:46:39 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 08:46:49 -!- looopy [~looopy@adsl-074-236-131-226.sip.cae.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:53:48 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.112.85] has joined #lisp 08:55:35 -!- kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:56:47 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.112.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:00:53 kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #lisp 09:02:35 Wiallim [~Lambda@117.22.172.35] has joined #lisp 09:03:01 -!- Wiallim [~Lambda@117.22.172.35] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 09:03:24 -!- Hcnele is now known as Elench 09:03:33 Wiallim [~Lambda@117.22.172.35] has joined #lisp 09:04:42 -!- Wiallim [~Lambda@117.22.172.35] has quit [Client Quit] 09:04:44 -!- ineiros [~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:05:03 ineiros [~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 09:05:10 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.112.85] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:05:21 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.112.85] has joined #lisp 09:06:50 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159933.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:09:13 Evanescence [~chris@122.237.24.61] has joined #lisp 09:12:59 Yuuhi [benni@p5483BCC7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:14:16 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:15:20 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 09:17:38 rstandy [~rastandy@93-63-185-248.ip29.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:18:05 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-bxpbkbpoomgmkndt] has joined #lisp 09:18:05 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-bxpbkbpoomgmkndt] has quit [Changing host] 09:18:05 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 09:19:07 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 09:23:58 Praetor [c913540f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.201.19.84.15] has joined #lisp 09:24:45 is there a way to loop through a list and get each 2 or 3 items without overlapping? e.g. in '(1 2 3 4) each 2 is '(1 2) then '(3 4) 09:25:06 I'm reading about LOOP and I don't see a way to do that easily 09:25:21 One way is to use the DO macro (without loop) and use cddr as the update. 09:26:07 There might be a way with loop: I seem to remember you can specify the stepping? But then you've still got to work with the iterating variable being the "rest of the list" 09:26:12 I thought of using the c*dr stuff but won't that make it so it's not generic enough that I can simply choose to loop over every 2 or 3 or 4 ? 09:26:47 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d002a92.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:27:38 in summary, I want to write a "slice-list" method that if passed a 3 and '(1 2 3 4 5 6) would return '((1 2 3) (4 5 6)) 09:29:27 brb 09:31:22 rswarbrick pasted "each-n" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/123401 09:31:37 Praetor, Is this what you wanted? 09:33:18 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:35:16 rswarbrick annotated #123401 "slice-list" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/123401#1 09:35:58 -!- redline6561 [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 09:36:07 -!- Mandus [~aasmundo@oro.simula.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:36:28 redline6561 [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 09:37:09 arquebus [~arquebus@189.221.12.73.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #lisp 09:37:32 Mandus [~aasmundo@oro.simula.no] has joined #lisp 09:41:51 pavelludiq [~pavelludi@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 09:42:13 -!- arquebus [~arquebus@189.221.12.73.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:46:16 ehu [~ehuels@46.207.255.82] has joined #lisp 09:46:50 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 09:46:51 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-71-174-61-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:48:41 -!- zfx- [~zfx@host86-133-8-97.range86-133.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Be back later] 09:50:38 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:50:44 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 09:52:24 -!- Elench [~user@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:53:04 Elench [~user@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 09:56:32 I'm back 09:56:37 lemme take a look 09:58:39 spark_ [~spark@123.147.247.114] has joined #lisp 09:59:06 rswarbrick: yeppers, it achieves the end result I was looking for. thanks for that. I'll take a closer look at the code now 09:59:56 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:00:01 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 10:00:46 -!- rswarbrick [~rswarbric@cpc1-cove3-0-0-cust941.3-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:01:36 (I need to revise my do-fu to understand some of that code 10:03:35 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 10:04:11 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-eazxzctujwpbbacw] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:06:34 -!- Fade [~fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:07:33 -!- drdo [~drdo@199.119.226.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:09:24 Fade [~fade@66.207.216.43] has joined #lisp 10:10:31 drdo [~drdo@199.119.226.161] has joined #lisp 10:17:02 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 10:17:07 zfx [~zfx@mail.inqmobile.com] has joined #lisp 10:17:07 -!- zfx [~zfx@mail.inqmobile.com] has quit [Changing host] 10:17:07 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 10:18:40 -!- cyrillos_ [~cyrill@swsoft-msk-nat.sw.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:19:59 carlocci [~nes@93.37.217.233] has joined #lisp 10:20:13 -!- chu_ [~mathew.ba@CPE-58-169-43-95.lns3.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:20:32 chu_ [~mathew.ba@CPE-58-169-43-95.lns3.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:22:32 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-yhdpxopbzxaugoxb] has joined #lisp 10:27:27 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-132-188-166.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:27:27 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-132-188-166.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 10:27:27 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:31:51 Joreji [~thomas@68-137.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:35:25 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-207-189.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 10:35:25 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-207-189.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:35:26 cyrillos_ [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has joined #lisp 10:36:29 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 10:37:59 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.117.130] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:38:01 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-140-162.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:40:01 tcr [~tcr@217-162-207-189.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 10:40:01 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-207-189.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:44:50 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.1.135] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:45:25 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.1.135] has joined #lisp 10:46:04 zfx [~zfx@mail.inqmobile.com] has joined #lisp 10:46:04 -!- zfx [~zfx@mail.inqmobile.com] has quit [Changing host] 10:46:04 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 10:49:12 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-yhdpxopbzxaugoxb] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:56:27 -!- cyrillos_ [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 10:59:57 H4ns` [~user@p4FFC9F31.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:03:22 -!- H4ns [~user@p4FFC81F2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:08:16 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-wbxojwmddpelbhyx] has joined #lisp 11:09:58 hi people 11:12:49 Posterdati: hi! have a look at this, rswarbrick wrote that for me 11:13:02 can you tell me what (values) accomplishes there? 11:13:07 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:13:23 what? 11:13:31 (values v1 v2 v3 ... vn) 11:13:53 to return multiple values from a function 11:14:17 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 11:14:23 -!- H4ns` is now known as H4ns 11:16:22 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-43-98.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:22:17 -!- newcup [newcup@peruna.fi] has quit [Quit: connection reset by pear] 11:24:05 Night-hacks [~nullpoint@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 11:24:14 hi 11:25:18 wanted to know debugging tip's in Slime 11:25:26 any trace like debugging ? 11:25:49 Night-hacks: TRACE is a standard CL function. 11:26:10 Xach: macro :) 11:26:49 i should pass my function with arguments to it ? 11:26:51 Yes, macro, sorry. 11:27:07 Night-hacks: you probably mean stepping 11:27:08 -!- insomniaSalt is now known as insomniaSalt` 11:27:08 Night-hacks: no, you should look at http://l1sp.org/cl/trace and the manual for the common lisp you use. 11:27:20 -!- insomniaSalt` is now known as insomniaSalt 11:28:01 -!- insomniaSalt is now known as insomniaSalt- 11:28:06 Night-hacks: usually it's something like (trace myfunction) and (untrace myfunction) 11:28:08 -!- insomniaSalt- is now known as insomniaSalt 11:28:26 -!- Praetor [c913540f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.201.19.84.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:29:14 jdz: i'm not sure about the correct word in CL. 11:29:22 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-118-162.btc-net.bg] has left #lisp 11:29:49 something like Java traces. 11:30:09 well, i don't know what Java traces look or work like 11:30:46 Night-hacks: you can insert a call to BREAK anywhere in your code, and when that call is reached, you'll end in the debugger 11:31:05 Night-hacks: after looking around you can continue your program execution 11:32:00 Night-hacks: some implementations also allow one to add breaks before/after calling a function (using the TRACE macro), this way the code does not have to be changed at all 11:32:42 ok 11:33:54 Night-hacks: Are you using sbcl? 11:34:00 yeah 11:35:02 And sldb doesn't give you a stack trace/traceback/backtrace when you error? 11:36:00 dixon: it give's but as i said the easiest way to debugging is step by step tracing so you can check everything 11:36:23 at least for me it is ! 11:37:47 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 11:38:38 Night-hacks: I haven't found a way to do that with SBCL and SLIME so I use different ways to check everything, like recompiling a defun with high debug (C-u C-c C-c) and adding (break) statements sometimes. 11:39:16 -!- brown [~user@nat/google/x-bhzqybjzkjubhbep] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 11:39:39 brown [~user@nat/google/x-blgjhmphdlozugol] has joined #lisp 11:39:56 also, i think ASSERT is underestimated 11:40:05 and CHECK-TYPE 11:41:24 -!- am0c [~am0c@211.49.101.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:41:38 thanks, must try it 11:42:12 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-wbxojwmddpelbhyx] has left #lisp 11:49:00 -!- Joreji [~thomas@68-137.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:50:29 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.112.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:51:12 Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-54-189.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:32 Praetor [c913540f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.201.19.84.15] has joined #lisp 11:52:53 Posterdati: sorry about that. so he used (values) there just in case the fun function returned multiple values? 11:52:55 please, I'm studying conditions and restarts on PCL chapter 19, I'd like to handle conditions in my program, should I define multiple conditions or it is better to create a single conditions with different slots? 11:53:10 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-143-106.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:53:44 Posterdati, depends on what you're trying to do 11:54:20 Praetor: (values) returns 0 values. 11:54:22 Posterdati: it's a bit like designing classes. 11:54:31 Praetor: it is used when we want to return 0 values. 11:54:45 Praetor: as pjb stated 11:54:46 (as opposite of, say, return a big irrelevant value). 11:54:54 Posterdati: sometimes one class can fit the bill, sometimes it takes multiple independent classes, or subclasses, or things like that. 11:55:28 Posterdati: it can come down to how fine-grained you want to report and handle things. 11:55:44 Xach: well my program read input from file, then parse it and finally solve linear system in several steps 11:56:12 Xach: basically I've a reader/parse and a solver 11:56:50 Posterdati: What parts can go wrong? What do you want to do when things go wrong? Is it important to be able to resume work after some intervention? Should it just report the problem and stop? Those are the kinds of things you have to decide. 11:57:22 Xach: yes 11:57:45 pjb: hmm, lemme think about that for a moment. okay, I get it, it returns 0 values... but why? that function works just as well without (values) there, seemingly 11:58:09 Yes, but it would return an irrelevant result. 11:58:13 Praetor: (values) is a way to communicate to the human reader that the function returns nothing useful. 11:59:08 Xach: another problem arises, look at my code: http://paste.lisp.org/display/123403 11:59:26 Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-43-98.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:59:43 Posterdati: the problem of overlong lines can be cured by hitting Enter from time to time. 11:59:50 Xach: this is the reader part... It fails when sexp expression in the file are wrong. How can handle conditions? 12:00:25 wrap it in a restart to try reading again. 12:00:34 Even to re-open the file and try reading again. 12:00:49 ngz [~user@104.236.75.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 12:00:57 Posterdati: what do you want to be able to do if the file has bad input? 12:01:25 Xach: the file is hill written, so program can't continue 12:01:35 Xach: like a "syntax error" 12:01:52 What is "hill written"? 12:02:24 Xach: sorry, I mean there are syntax erro in it 12:02:38 Posterdati: http://paste.lisp.org/display/123403#1 12:03:05 Posterdati: that's not correct. The program can retry reading the file (after the user corrected it) and continue from there. 12:03:17 TeMPO[RAL] [~user@jiscser4.esc.rl.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:03:28 Xach, pjb: that explains it. thanks! 12:04:19 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has quit [Quit: Be back later] 12:04:46 pjb: ok, I need to warn user about error position, should I enhance the reader? 12:05:00 Yes. 12:05:06 pjb: it automatically reads data from sexp expression in files 12:05:20 But most implementations will already report where the read error occured. 12:05:59 pjb: yes, but I can't figure out if there's a missing parenthesis 12:05:59 Posterdati: If you need fine-grained error reporting and control, READ is not a good tool. It does not specify in detail what it does for most errors. 12:06:14 Xach: that's the point 12:06:15 Posterdati: if that kind of thing is very important to you, you have to use something non-standard. 12:07:01 Xach: I have to be more precise on errors found in the input file, because these files are created by users 12:07:15 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 12:07:17 Posterdati: Then you might have to write your own code to process the file instead of using READ. 12:07:18 Posterdati: http://paste.lisp.org/display/123403#2 12:07:36 -!- parabolize [~paraboliz@203.83.50.36] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:07:46 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:09:03 Posterdati: you can also use (file-position in (- (file-position in) 500)) (format *error-output* "Around ~S~%" (read-sequence (make-array 1000 :element-type 'character) in)) 12:09:27 Xach: "read" automagically reads sexp expressions from text files and it was fine to write a simple parser, but now I need to handle errors too! 12:09:33 naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 12:09:54 pjb: thanks 12:10:12 With some max and min to seek within the file. 12:10:52 Xach: I'm so good to write a "read" like function :) 12:11:02 Xach: I'm not so good 12:11:37 Posterdati: it's easy: use read-char, and loop. 12:12:06 pjb: ok, but how can I look for misplaced parenthesis or keys? 12:13:03 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/c0989e261d6c0ea0?hl=en ; for example. 12:13:35 francogrex [~user@109.130.55.146] has joined #lisp 12:13:38 Joreji [~thomas@68-137.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:14:04 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.217.233] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 12:15:50 pjb: so you push in the stack only stuff enclosed in ()? 12:16:04 don't you? 12:16:07 Parentheses are matched with a stack. 12:16:34 kdas_ [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-mkpacgyxqdjtfakw] has joined #lisp 12:16:35 But depending on the language you need to parse, you may want to write a context free parser. 12:16:44 sexp expression only 12:16:47 sexp expressions only 12:17:09 gor[e] [~svr@gw2.masterhost.ru] has joined #lisp 12:17:11 sexps are context-free. 12:17:35 Posterdati: you can use a recursive descent parser. 12:17:37 http://darcs.informatimago.com/small-cl-pgms/rdp/index.html 12:17:39 pjb: I don't need to much keys 12:17:44 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recursive_descent_parser 12:18:31 pjb: I don't need to match keys in sexp's 12:19:16 pjb: not for now 12:19:18 Posterdati: the grammar of sexps is simple: sexp ::= | '(' sexp* ')' . 12:19:26 yes 12:20:32 ¬'('First(atom) therefore you need to read only a single character to know whether you must parse sexp ::= or sexp ::= '(' sexp* ')'. 12:20:34 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:20:56 Also ¬')'First(sexp) therefore you need to read only a single character to know whether you must parse another sexp or ')'. 12:21:08 parabolize [~paraboliz@203.83.50.36] has joined #lisp 12:21:11 Therefore you can write a simple function to parse sexps: 12:22:46 (defun parse-sexp (src) (let ((ch (peek-char nil src))) (if (char= '(' ch) (progn (read-char src) (loop :until (char= ')' (peek-char nil src)) :collect (parse-sexp src) :finally (read-char src))) (parse-atom src)))) 12:22:47 Posterdati: If you can't solve your own problems, you might have to pay someone to solve them for you, or find a generous person to share solutions for free. 12:22:49 That's all there is to it. 12:23:08 pjb: '('? 12:23:16 Sorry #\( and #\). 12:23:34 Xach: no money here 12:24:12 Posterdati: Then you will have to rely on the kindness and patience of others. 12:24:16 -!- Evanescence [~chris@122.237.24.61] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 12:24:18 I have run out of the latter, good luck with pjb! 12:24:33 Xach: ok, thanks 12:24:42 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:25:03 Xach: you should be a great professor then 12:25:07 -!- Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-54-189.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:25:54 Posterdati: Why? 12:26:19 Xach: because you've got a lot of patience 12:26:52 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.55.146] has quit [Quit: phone call; will be back. thanks guys] 12:26:55 Posterdati: You would make a terrible student, because you don't pay attention very well. 12:27:02 and kindness 12:27:28 Xach: ok, then talk to my parents 12:29:47 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 12:30:03 claireyuk [~Claire@host-92-27-11-81.static.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 12:30:53 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:33:20 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.118.23] has joined #lisp 12:37:27 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-140-162.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 12:38:28 -!- kdas_ is now known as kushal 12:38:37 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-mkpacgyxqdjtfakw] has quit [Changing host] 12:38:37 kushal 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[~mishoo@79.112.118.23] has joined #lisp 14:33:46 -!- zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.35.237.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:34:53 -!- chu_ [~mathew.ba@CPE-58-169-43-95.lns3.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:37:00 leyyer_su [~user@222.212.186.117] has joined #lisp 14:43:59 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:45:45 when i use a variable which is unbound, i get an unbound-variable error. is there a way to supply the value that should be used for the variable in that place in a restart? i don't see a way for doing this myself, but perhaps i'm missing something 14:47:57 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.162.62] has joined #lisp 14:49:59 madnificent: There isn't a standard way. Some implementations provide restarts for it. 14:50:31 -!- leyyer_su [~user@222.212.186.117] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:52:03 gz [~gz@173-162-137-153-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:22 Xach: good, thanks 14:52:38 DelPuerto [~youguy@90.162.155.153] has joined #lisp 14:53:10 -!- brown [~user@nat/google/x-blgjhmphdlozugol] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:53:14 brown [~user@nat/google/x-usoxmncbewhszmse] has joined #lisp 14:54:45 You can test for unboundness. 14:55:34 I'm getting "index too large" error, and I see this happens because at some point I'm calling (elt #() 0). How can I see exactly which call to elt triggered the error? 14:56:51 Kenjin: you mean a stack trace? that should be available in the debugger 14:57:37 hi 14:57:54 does anyone installed common lisp on embedded hardware? 14:58:12 Sure, but then ... embedded hardware is really big these days. 14:59:26 blandest: I'm seeing the restarts and the backtrace 15:00:35 Kenjin: do you see a function of your own in the backtrace? 15:00:43 Kenjin: do you use SBCL? 15:00:50 Xach: I do 15:00:59 -!- gz [~gz@173-162-137-153-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 15:01:02 if you are not compiling with enough debug information you may not understand much from the output 15:02:07 Kenjin: You can recompile your functions with high debug (C-u C-c C-c) to see the exact form that triggered the error. The frames will show up in green and you can use "v" to jump to the offending form. 15:02:07 jajcloz [~jaj@173-162-137-153-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:55 Xach: Thanks. I've used "v" but it points me to the function and not the offending form. I'll try that thanks 15:03:26 usually you can just read the function and think, though. 15:03:39 sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 15:03:40 -!- DelPuerto [~youguy@90.162.155.153] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 15:04:00 Since you'll likely have to think to fix the bug anyway, the cost of doing so is less than could be expected. 15:04:37 pkhuong: the thing is, I have multiple calls to elt I don't know which one is being called on #() 15:05:28 that's where thinking comes in. 15:06:04 Xach: thanks. I found it. 15:07:13 pkhuong: I'm importing some data and I don't know if certain fields are empty. I should have a check for this, but I think being able to jump to the offending form is very useful 15:07:58 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-mtrpqlkjehzwajxq] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:08:21 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 15:08:22 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:08:33 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 15:08:51 If thine form offends thee, pluck it out 15:08:54 but see, you might have the same bug on other fields, so unless you believe in an extreme form of TDD, a mini code review pass is in order. 15:09:12 -!- Quetzalcoatl_ [~Administr@cpe-75-186-5-185.cinci.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:09:37 pkhuong: yes indeed and will do :) 15:11:08 rstandy [~rastandy@93-63-185-248.ip29.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:12:30 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:12:41 -!- rstandy [~rastandy@93-63-185-248.ip29.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Client Quit] 15:12:44 -!- rstandy` [~rastandy@93-63-185-248.ip29.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:13:18 rstandy [~rastandy@93-63-185-248.ip29.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:16:10 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-018-003.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:16:51 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 15:18:48 pnq [~nick@172.164.86.174] has joined #lisp 15:22:03 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 15:25:23 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-181-173.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Offline] 15:25:45 Zhivago: can i? can i walk an s-exp and somehow know if the variables are bound? will that understand macros? 15:27:22 zmv [~Telefonic@200-161-255-70.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 15:29:56 -!- TeMPO[RAL] [~user@jiscser4.esc.rl.ac.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:31:31 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 15:31:53 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d002a92.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:32:31 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@p57A4029E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:35:29 See unboundp. 15:35:47 zfx [~zfx@mail.inqmobile.com] has joined #lisp 15:35:47 -!- zfx [~zfx@mail.inqmobile.com] has quit [Changing host] 15:35:47 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 15:36:25 Or, if using CL, boundp. 15:36:50 madnificent: What kind of project prompted the original question? 15:36:57 madnificent: are you generating code or something? 15:36:59 I always get that one backward. 15:37:05 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-207-189.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:38:57 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:39:27 jdz [~jdz@host116-104-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:40:42 antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-2925097611.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:49:34 jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.104] has joined #lisp 15:50:15 Xach: I have a set of rules and a set of base values. if possible, I'd prefer the rules to contain any lisp form. that would mean that I should bind any unbound symbol to one of the definitions I know 15:50:16 it's just at toy basically 15:50:55 Hey. 15:50:57 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:50:59 Anybody tried cl-xmpp? 15:51:00 -!- pnq [~nick@172.164.86.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:51:09 I have some problems when connecting 15:51:20 I guess I'll assume that all forms that look like function calls are in fact function calls (no macros) and use boundp 15:51:51 Zhivago, Xach: thanks 15:52:20 otwieracz: i used it a little. 15:52:26 Kryztof [~user@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 15:52:49 Xach: I have question, if you remember 15:54:00 http://paste.lisp.org/display/123406 15:54:06 I'm doing something like this. 15:54:16 But it doesn't work. 15:54:36 [root]> netstat -tp | grep chopin.edu.pl did not return this connection, also I dont see this resource online. 15:55:01 I'm doing this like here: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-xmpp/ 15:55:19 Maybe you remember something what might be helpful? 15:56:51 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:57:27 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 15:57:55 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483BCC7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:06:24 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has quit [Quit: Be back later] 16:10:13 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 16:11:25 add^_ [~add^_^@h84n2c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 16:14:19 -!- jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.104] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:16:56 lacedaemon [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 16:19:18 -!- gor[e] [~svr@gw2.masterhost.ru] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:19:36 kpreid [~kpreid@nat/google/x-rzfmhnldtlszzmdl] has joined #lisp 16:19:42 -!- rstandy [~rastandy@93-63-185-248.ip29.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:20:13 Yuuhi [benni@p5483BCC7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:40 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:25:05 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 16:25:21 otwieracz: sorry, i don't. 16:29:06 Uhm 16:29:18 Now I'm getting 503 while trying to auth. 16:29:28 SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@VEROXITY.ipcolo1.SanFrancisco1.Level3.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:41 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.162.62] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:35:43 -!- fourier` [~user@213.141.149.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:36:50 francogrex [~user@109.130.55.146] has joined #lisp 16:36:59 -!- Joreji [~thomas@68-137.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:37:07 looopy [~looopy@74.236.131.226] has joined #lisp 16:41:49 Someone got any recent working code using cl-xmpp to have a look and gain inspiration? The sample code at the project website seems not to be even updated to reflect recent changes in the code. 16:44:10 -!- cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:44:30 pnq [~nick@172.162.62.46] has joined #lisp 16:49:09 -!- e-user [~e-user@nat/nokia/x-zrvoaogmxfqgdwzy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:49:51 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@nat/google/x-rzfmhnldtlszzmdl] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 16:50:09 kpreid [~kpreid@nat/google/x-qmwihdmurvcfqarz] has joined #lisp 16:51:10 zmv_ [~Telefonic@200-161-255-70.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 16:51:10 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 16:53:00 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@200-161-255-70.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:53:12 -!- antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-2925097611.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:53:52 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.55.146] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:00:47 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-179-45-240.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:56 zmv [~Telefonic@200-161-255-70.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 17:04:54 -!- zmv_ [~Telefonic@200-161-255-70.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:05:37 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-43-98.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:06:43 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 17:06:58 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:09:11 Hello Dragons! 17:09:50 can anyone tell me if the /bin/ln on Macs accepts the GNU style longopts? 17:10:48 not as of 10.5.8 17:10:55 oGMo: thanks! 17:11:01 mon_key: np 17:16:29 vaaal [irc2gowebc@net-93-144-220-143.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 17:17:00 hi 17:17:06 how can i make a symbol umbound ? 17:17:10 *unbound 17:17:27 the inverse of intern 17:17:37 MAKUNBOUND 17:18:00 thank u 17:18:20 unbound isn't the inverse of intern though 17:18:30 unintern is more like it. 17:18:31 jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-145.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:18:32 -!- trigen [c1aca602@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.172.166.2] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:18:33 mm 17:18:37 makeunbound doesn't work... 17:18:41 -!- ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 17:18:43 take out the 'e' 17:18:44 no e 17:18:48 *gigamonkey* wins! 17:18:49 ah! 17:18:50 sorry 17:18:51 doh 17:18:51 :-) 17:18:54 ;) 17:18:55 Interning establishes an identity between a string and a symbol. 17:19:22 Binding is what you do with variables, which might be named by symbols. 17:20:13 i'm in bit of trouble 17:20:24 i'm making this function: 17:20:27 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 17:20:32 ops tel, wait 17:21:08 so 17:21:14 first of all, i (setf x 10) 17:21:24 then (let ((x 1)) (defun try1 () x)) 17:21:37 so when i call try1 it return simply 1, as expected 17:21:43 zmv_ [~Telefonic@200-161-255-70.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 17:21:57 if instead of setf i did (defparameter x 10) try1 would return 10 17:21:57 right? 17:22:04 the question is: 17:22:30 why, if i (defparameter x 10) AFTER (setf x 10), and call the same try1, it DOESN'T return 10? 17:24:41 it seems changing the x in the let of the function... 17:24:54 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@200-161-255-70.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:25:06 vaaal: doing a SETF of a variable that doesn't exist yet (either by way of a DEFVAR, DEFPARAMETER, LET, etc. is undefined. 17:25:13 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 17:25:52 mmm i thinks this didn't matter here... 17:25:59 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:26:08 i think this doesn't matter here. 17:26:26 if i (unintern x), (try1) return 10 anyway. 17:26:34 (unintern 'x), sorry. 17:27:20 vaaal: what do you think it should return? 17:27:30 Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-43-98.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:27:40 am0c [~am0c@211.49.101.189] has joined #lisp 17:28:12 if i (defparameter x 10) after (setf x 10) i expect it returns 10 as i would (defparameter x 10) withouth previous (setf x 10). 17:28:46 why do you think that? 17:28:47 Well, your expectation might or might not line up with how your impl decided to handle the initial SETF of a non-existent variable. 17:29:07 can you explain this, gigamonkey? 17:29:11 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 17:29:26 some impls will treat (setf x 10) as equivalent to (defparameter x 10). 17:29:49 Others will treat it as creating a "top-level lexical variable", something that doesn't exist in Common Lisp proper. 17:29:54 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 17:30:20 mmm 17:30:35 The fact that try1 initially returned 1 suggests your impl is doing the latter. 17:30:35 so i shouldn't use setf x with non existing symbols? 17:30:46 That would be my strong advice. 17:30:50 thank you 17:31:00 sorry, what do you intend with impls? 17:31:01 impl? 17:31:21 Which implemenatation of Common Lisp you are using, e.g. SBCL or CLISP or Allegro, etc. 17:31:49 ok thank you, doesn't know that abbreviation 17:32:33 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:33:00 which implementation would you suggest? 17:33:35 littlebobby [~bob@unaffiliated/littlebobby] has joined #lisp 17:34:08 i was thinking... if i would use a top level variable withouth dynamic scope, what i should use? 17:35:51 a new idea. 17:36:12 ... 17:36:16 vaaal: that's rarely needed, except for performance reasons. 17:36:17 thank you xach, really helpful. 17:36:33 ok, and if i would use it? 17:36:43 vaaal: Rob Warnock's deflex. 17:36:57 Still, there are some tricks with special variables and symbol-macro, and implementations might have support for that sort of thing as an extension. 17:37:29 xach, what's the problem? 17:38:08 vaaal: With what? 17:38:18 with my answer 17:38:23 vaaal: Which answer? 17:38:38 really i should copy and paste it? 17:38:40 really? 17:38:41 carlocci [~nes@93.37.194.217] has joined #lisp 17:38:43 you can't read above? 17:38:51 vaaal: Sorry, I don't know which part of the discussion you're talking about. 17:39:25 vaaal: no need for sarcasm, Xach is trying to help. 17:39:36 really? I don't see how. 17:39:53 i asked a question, maybe stupid, but still seems legit to me. 17:40:00 You asked more than one. 17:41:00 if i would define a variable to top level of lisp, but NOT with dynamic scope (so as a TOP LEXICAL VARIABLE), how i should do? 17:41:06 sorry for my english :-\ 17:41:10 vaaal: CL doesn't provide top-level lexical variables; most Lispers find living without them not very onerous. 17:41:51 There are hacks such as the aforementioned deflex that provide something like it but it mostly seems not worth the effort. 17:42:03 vaaal: one option is to change what you want to do and avoid the issue that it's not a directly-supported feature of common lisp. another option is to use the DEFLEX macro by (among others) Rob Warnock. 17:42:06 zmv [~Telefonic@200-161-255-70.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 17:42:15 Rob warnock? 17:42:18 vaaal: I prefer the former route. 17:42:22 ok, so i owe a excuse to xach 17:42:35 *gigamonkey* follows the same route as Xach. 17:42:36 i doens't know robert warnock, i though it was a sort of mocking 17:42:42 :D 17:42:44 what's wrong with just wrapping a defclass around your variables? 17:43:01 Younder: yikes, what?! 17:43:06 mmm 17:43:26 i'm not doing some particular project, so i've not practical needes 17:43:34 just asking 17:43:49 Robert Warnock (born 19 January 1987) is an Australian rules footballer in the Australian Football League.-- 17:43:49 martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:43:53 ^^ 17:44:11 Nope. Different guy. 17:44:19 sure, i was joking 17:44:26 thank u all 17:44:27 Well just sees to me that mostly when I get collections of global variables I organize them into classes. 17:44:27 rob warnock in this context is a well known lisp hacker. 17:44:38 Check comp.lang.lisp archives. Or google "rob warnock deflex" 17:44:49 Younder: fair enough. 17:44:55 -!- zmv_ [~Telefonic@200-161-255-70.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:45:08 gigamonkey, can i ask another time what impl would you suggest? 17:45:30 sbcl is probably the most used around this channel. 17:45:45 clozure common lisp is also very nice. 17:45:57 if you're on windows, lispworks and allegro seem well regarded. 17:46:09 sbcl is the most used in the world 17:46:18 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-irsrkyudnuzpfyze] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:46:22 there are multiple worlds, though. 17:46:51 i'm using lispworks 17:47:00 lispworks is a fine implementation of Common Lisp. 17:47:11 And when you have problems, you can easily pay someone to pretend to care about them. 17:47:19 I hear they have a very responsive support list, too. 17:47:33 -!- ch077179 [~urs@unaffiliated/ch077179] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 17:47:39 mmm 17:47:44 it is so supportive, they call it lisp-hug 17:47:48 lol. 17:48:07 final question: 17:48:24 Is there a go-to logging framework? 17:48:35 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:48:40 herbieB: i haven't noticed one. log5 seems to want to be one. 17:48:43 Or should we just rock things to standard-error and let the end user handle where the stream lands 17:48:46 how can i inflate my knowledge of clos? 17:49:01 vaaal: read Practical Common Lisp at www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 17:49:03 Alright, I'm going to go with dynamic scoping saves the day 17:49:09 And not worry abotu ti 17:49:12 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 17:49:13 vaaal: I use SBCL. 17:49:15 vaaal: also read Sonya Keene's book about CLOS 17:49:24 thank you 17:49:27 herbieB: You could define a synonym stream, too. 17:49:34 i would start with seibel's book :) 17:49:36 see also Art of the Metaobject Protocol. 17:50:07 -!- X-Scale [email@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:50:10 Xach: Nodnod 17:50:15 gigamonkey <--is him p seibel? 17:50:32 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:50:45 vaaal: him is 17:51:06 -.- 17:51:12 sorry for my really bad english :-\ 17:51:18 i'd recommend little lisper/schemer personally. Unless you're an experienced programmer already. 17:51:28 j_king: does that have a lot of info about CLOS? 17:51:36 Xach: None. ;) 17:51:44 vaaal: maybe when you become fluent in CL we can communicate more effectively in code 17:51:49 oh doh 17:51:52 missed the clos bit 17:51:57 nm 17:52:00 maybe, xach. 17:52:24 xach are you native english speaker? 17:53:31 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 17:53:50 vaaal: Yes. 17:54:34 anyway, the problem is that when you can't express your thought properly you KNOW that other will see you more more stupid then you are. 17:55:07 So everytime i talk in english chat i look like a stupid and i know it. In italian i'm not stupid as in english, at least i think. 17:55:40 so i don't know, maybe be more kind with no native english speaker 17:55:47 who cares about english, all you need to speak here is Lisp 17:55:55 vaaal: So maybe you should be both aggressive and defensive and assume the worst in others, like you did today, and you will be fine. 17:56:06 stassats: and maybe enough english to get by 17:56:14 vaaal: another way is to participate a lot in these english chats. I'm not a native english speaker, but my english has improveed. 17:56:18 improved. 17:56:31 i know, ehu, it's a good idea 17:56:56 ehu's english has "improveed" so much he's now working on Old English. ;-) 17:57:10 :D 17:57:15 gigamonkey, are you p seibel? 17:57:19 *gigamonkey* tips his hat to anyone who can communicate at all in anything other than their native language. 17:57:27 I am. Xach wasn't lying. 17:57:34 awesome 17:57:35 really awesome. 17:57:37 :D 17:58:18 i've never spoken with an important person in my life. 17:58:19 <[df]> backing up a bit, what are synonym streams useful for? 17:58:59 [df]: it's useful for when you want to have a stream that, by default, goes to some other stream, following it through rebindings and the like, but one that you can independenly rebind on its own. 17:59:33 [df]: for example, if you want *command-output* to go to *standard-output*, whatever the dynamic value of *STANDARD-OUTPUT* happens to be at the time of the write to *COMMAND-OUTPUT*. 17:59:51 but sometimes you might want to redirect only *command-output* but not *standard-output*. 17:59:59 <[df]> so the idea is that you'd set it up at the top level and use it in your library, but then the user of the library could rebind it if they think otherwise? 18:00:05 yeah. 18:00:10 <[df]> thanks 18:01:40 vaaal: Well, keep trying. Maybe you'll find one some day. 18:01:48 graham or norvig 18:01:53 maybe xach is graham? 18:02:08 nop 18:02:09 Doh! Xach, that's gotta hurt. 18:02:19 They don't hang out here. 18:02:24 ^^ 18:02:25 Haha! 18:02:48 mmm 18:02:52 gigamonkey, i was thinking... 18:02:58 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 18:02:59 in the above example.... 18:03:00 xach.com still banned on HN? 18:03:08 paul uses the arc of the covenant.. 18:03:26 add^_^ [~add^_^@h84n2c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 18:03:40 if i (setf x 10) and THEN (defparameter y 10), why THEN (let ((y 1)) (defun try1 () y)) doens't return 10? I really don't get i.t 18:03:41 *it. 18:03:54 sorry, assume X all the variable 18:03:59 felideon: yes. and xach.livejournal.com, i think. 18:04:08 so (let ((x 1) ect. 18:04:22 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@200-161-255-70.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:04:33 The (let (y 1) ) takes precedence as it has lexical scope 18:05:00 mm 18:05:10 i rewrite it all: 18:05:29 (setf x 10), then (defparameter x 10), then i call try1 that is (let ((x 1)) (defun try1 () x)) 18:05:34 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@h84n2c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:05:34 -!- add^_^ is now known as add^_ 18:05:47 in this case try1 give me 1, why? 18:05:53 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159933.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:05:58 it follow lexical scope, but why if i (defparameter x 10)? 18:06:07 vaaal: basically if you ever do a DEFPARAMETER (or DEFVAR) of a variable that doesn't have earmuffs (i.e. *x* rather than x), You're Doing It Wrong(tm) 18:06:12 vaaal, heard of closures? Because you have just created one. 18:06:15 zmv [~Telefonic@200-161-255-70.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 18:06:40 ok younder, but when i (defparameter x 10) WITHOUTH previous (setf x 10), try1 works as expected. 18:06:57 (it return 10) 18:06:59 (instead of 1) 18:07:07 gigamonkey, the 'earmuffs' are a hint. They are not required by the language 18:07:08 Hm, is there a stream that's effectively /dev/null? It looks like no... 18:07:13 global lexicals will probably make all the functions you define closures 18:07:20 frx [~frx@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 18:07:45 herbieB: (make-broadcast-stream) 18:07:50 vaal because x is not y 18:08:15 assume all is x. 18:08:15 hello 18:08:17 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:08:21 Xach: Yeah, that makes sense 18:08:31 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 18:08:51 vaaal you use y in try1 in first example. if it's really x then try1 should return 1 18:09:21 why if i (defparametere x 10) ? 18:09:47 :-\ 18:10:06 <[df]> vaaal: which lisp is this? 18:10:15 common lisp in lispbox 18:10:36 isn't that strange? 18:10:40 or am i strange?? 18:11:09 SBCL in other words 18:11:14 <[df]> well I'm guessing setfing undefined variables is, uh, undefined 18:11:57 vaaal: In any case, if you setf a variable that doesn't exist, anything can happen. You're not programming in conforming Common Lisp anymore. So we cannot give you any cogent answer. 18:12:09 Younder: I'm aware they're not required. If they were required we wouldn't be having this discussion. 18:12:17 <[df]> vaaal: I don't get the behaviour you describe in either recent sbcl or ccl though 18:12:18 In CLHS yes. But implementations of CL handle it. Just not in the same way. 18:12:18 But if you leave them off You're Doing It Wrong. 18:12:41 mm 18:12:57 pjb, also if i setf a variable and THEN i defparameter it? 18:12:57 (setf x 10) (defparameter x 10) (let ((x 1)) (defun try1 () x)) (try1) ; is just NOT DEFINED. Anything can happen. It could launch a nuclear missile to your home. It could return 1, 2, 3, or 10. Anything.. 18:13:14 good. 18:13:22 so how can i define it? :-\ 18:13:23 Just DO NOT use setf on variables that are not defined. 18:13:27 it's odd that this doesn't return 1 though. (defparameter x 10) (let ((x 1)) (defun func () x)) (func) 18:13:27 With defparameter or defvar. 18:13:34 withouth previous setf. 18:13:42 i swear 18:13:44 it doesn't 18:13:44 frx: no it's not. 18:13:47 I guess I didn't understand how let works with specials 18:13:48 i try it a billion time. 18:13:55 You've made X globally special. 18:14:09 (unintern 'x) (defparameter x 10) (setf x 2) (let ((x 1)) (defun try1 () x)) (try1) --> 2 18:14:18 pjb, UNINTERN EITHER WORKS!!!! 18:14:21 this is incredible 18:14:35 if i (unintern 'x) , then (defparameter x 10), try1 return 1!!!! 18:14:37 is that possible?? 18:14:52 gigamonkey yeah, I just expected that x would be taken from func's scope, and not from the call's scope 18:14:52 Only if you redefine try1, otherwise it's not defined. 18:14:53 Quetzalcoatl_ [~Administr@cpe-75-186-5-185.cinci.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:15:10 ok. 18:15:11 ISF [~ivan@187.106.54.41] has joined #lisp 18:15:16 infact if i redefine try1 it works 18:15:18 thank you pjb. 18:15:30 ^^ 18:15:39 Or more exactly, try1 is the old one which is non conforming. If the old try1 was conforming, the result would still be defined. 18:15:57 now all is clear. 18:16:00 thanks god. 18:16:38 vaaal: unintern only remove the symbol from the package. It doesn't delete the symbol. The functions that use it still have access to the old symbol. Only you don't have access to it thru the reader and intern. 18:17:28 ook 18:17:57 So to have try1 access the new variable, after the unintern, you need to reread the definition of try1. 18:18:09 if I want to hash functions should I store 'function or #'function ? 18:18:22 frx: Better to use the symbol. 18:18:24 frx: well, that's the difference between lexical and dynamic scoping, isn't it? 18:18:38 However (function eql) (function equal) and (function equalp) are recognized. 18:18:45 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-060-100.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:50 gigamonkey I guess 18:18:52 gigamonkey: no, because make-hash-table accepts conformingly only those three. 18:19:08 Well, right if you flet eql... 18:19:21 not sure what you're talking about pjb 18:19:33 However (function eql) (function equal) and (function equalp) are recognized. 18:19:51 (flet ((eql (x y) (cl:equal x y))) (make-hash-table :test (function eql))) is not conforming. 18:20:08 (make-hash-table :test (function eql)) is conforming and equivalent to (make-hash-table :test (quote eql)). 18:20:14 I'm kind of surprised that discussion happened without mentioning the earmuffs convention. 18:20:19 and equivalent to (flet ((eql (x y) (cl:equal x y))) (make-hash-table :test (quote eql))) 18:20:30 Fade: it has been mentionned by gigamonkey. 18:20:36 pjb :test of make-hash can only take eq eql and equal? 18:20:45 you can't pass it custom functions? 18:20:50 correct 18:20:51 Conformingly, yes. 18:20:56 Otherwise it's an extension. 18:21:05 ahh 18:21:15 Is it possilbe to pass the STREAM variable of CL:WITH-OPEN-FILE to CL:PATHNAMEP in the body of w-o-f to test if STREAM? FWIW I'm look at this already: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/21_ac.htm 18:21:20 (make-hash-table :test #+your-implementation (function x) #-your-implementation 'eql) 18:21:30 that's pretty insane restriction. so you can't portable hash something that requres a custom equal function 18:21:47 there's a function that copy an array? 18:21:51 frx: Not so insane. 18:21:54 How can you hash something that requires a custom equal function? 18:21:57 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@200-161-255-70.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:21:58 vaaal: Not built-in in the general sense. 18:22:02 Xach: but nonetheless unfortunate. 18:22:03 ok 18:22:04 I would hope that all impementations handle this gracefully and work anyway 18:22:10 implementations* 18:22:18 mon_key: you can pass it to pathnamep, but i don't understand "to test if STREAM" part 18:22:19 mon_key: Yes, you can pass it in. I think it would always return NIL. 18:22:29 it will? 18:22:32 pjb: by writing paired custom equal and hash functions. 18:22:33 If you want to test a stream, use STREAMP. 18:22:37 Xach how is it not insane? 18:22:43 sorry to test if the stream is PATHNAMEP. 18:22:47 gigamonkey: indeed, you'd have to give a hash function to make-hash-table too. 18:23:01 mon_key: a stream is not a pathname. 18:23:04 stassats: its certainly returning NIL here 18:23:04 frx: I would consider it insane if it was an arbitrary decision made for no reason. I can think of several reasonable explanations for why it works that way. 18:23:12 yeah, it will, i mixed it with PATHNAME without P 18:23:18 mon_key: but you can call PATHNAME on a file stream, to get back the pathname. 18:23:19 such as? 18:23:36 efficiency. 18:23:45 bleh 18:23:46 ease for the implementer. 18:24:20 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 18:24:25 pjb: So, what is the use case of PATHNAMEP accepting a stream argument? 18:24:30 what do you get back if your stream was made from a string? 18:24:31 nil? 18:24:41 I'd use C if I cared about efficiency above all 18:24:52 mon_key: it can accept any kind of object but will only return T for pathname objects. 18:24:53 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 18:24:55 mon_key: you're confused, stringp accepts streams too 18:24:55 zod: dunnon I'm not making a string-stream :) 18:25:03 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 18:25:19 frx: lucky for you there are multiple "generic" hash table libraries for you to use. 18:25:25 ch077179_ [~ch077179@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 18:25:26 frx: not that I don't wish CL had standard extensible hash tables, but do look at the problems caused in Java by people messing up the equals()/hashCode() correspondence. 18:25:32 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:25:46 as do listp, and other type predicates, and the reason is to differentiate between objects of different type 18:25:47 -!- ch077179_ [~ch077179@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:25:51 ch077179 [~ch077179@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 18:25:51 stassats: Fine, but CL:STRINGP is mentioned explicitly in section 21.1.3 18:26:04 ^ isn't 18:26:14 -!- vaaal [irc2gowebc@net-93-144-220-143.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:26:39 ch077179_ [~ch077179@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 18:26:39 mon_key: it seems to me that figure 21-7 should not include pathnamep. 18:26:39 -!- ch077179_ [~ch077179@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Changing host] 18:26:39 ch077179_ [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has joined #lisp 18:26:44 -!- ch077179_ [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has quit [Client Quit] 18:26:48 -!- confab [180a3cb9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.10.60.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:26:49 -!- ch077179 [~ch077179@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 18:26:55 gravicappa [~gravicapp@p57A4029E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:26:56 ch077179 [~ch077179@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 18:26:56 -!- ch077179 [~ch077179@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Changing host] 18:26:56 ch077179 [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has joined #lisp 18:27:22 mon_key: PATHNAMEP does not accept a pathname designator as (some of?) those other items do. 18:27:24 so what about a value, should I make it a symbol or a function? I have a hash table with both key and value being functions 18:27:34 does the standard allow an implementation to have a different class precedence? 18:27:35 Xach: Askin mostly b/c i'm trying to understand if/how it relates to http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss261_w.htm 18:27:57 my clhs-fu is rusty 18:28:24 *bandu* appears 18:29:04 I want to do something like this: (with-objects ((var 'function arguments))) and with-objects will automatically free var at the end with the function associated with 'function 18:29:13 does that seem like a reasonable interface? 18:29:33 i wonder just how difficult is it to multithread an app in lisp? say, if you had dual hex-core procs? 18:30:09 bandu, depends on your lisp implementation 18:30:12 frx: define "free" 18:30:13 why are you working about freeing var? 18:30:17 sbcl? 18:30:20 on linux 18:30:25 bandu, I'd look into LispWorks.. 18:30:27 bandu: it is pretty easy. 18:30:47 stassats it will release the resources allocated by function. 18:30:48 bandu: that is, it's pretty easy to create a thread. designing an application might be harder. 18:31:04 which is to say, no more difficult than the baseline of getting a multi-threaded application correct in the first place. 18:31:13 frx: are you talking about foreign code, or something? 18:31:17 xach wins. 18:31:36 stassats seemed nicer to have a common interface for everything instead of definining a new with- for every function. yes I'll use it for foreign code 18:31:39 because most CL implementations have garbage collectors, which free any unused resources 18:31:52 *bandu* nods 18:32:19 frx: then yes, it is reasonable as long as it's reasonable 18:32:28 for other cases you might look into finalizers 18:32:49 maybe this would be nicer (with-object ((var (function arg))), I can do that right? function won't be called unless I call it if with-object is a macro 18:33:29 could finalizers be used here, I have to free resources right after the end of scope 18:33:48 BTW: The cruxt of my initial query is how does one test if the file assocaited with a stream is CL:WILD-PATHNNAME-P. From what pjb suggest the idea is to do (wild-pathname-p (pathname )) 18:34:20 frx: a nice pattern that I've seen is to have a with-finalizers macro that accumulates a sequence of callbacks 18:34:37 when the dynamic extent of the macro is left, all the callbacks are called. 18:35:44 how does it accumulate callbacks? based on the type of returned object or? 18:36:45 that way, the user only has to set up the cleanup scope once with a macro, and constructing functions register them before returning the object. 18:37:08 -!- der-rho-ist is now known as drrho 18:39:16 so something like this? (define-finalizer 'constructor 'deconstructor) (with-finalizers ((var (constructor ...)) 18:39:17 frx: how about (with-objects ((var (creation-form) :cleanup (cleanup var))) ...) 18:41:03 mon_key: (wild-pathname-p (pathname )) should return nil. 18:41:18 gigamonkey I wanted to avoid having to repeat cleanup var all the time, but seems useful to provide that as an optional parameter 18:41:19 mon_key: OPEN doesn't accept wild-pathnames. 18:42:00 But, the spec for CL:OPEN says if that a FILE-ERROR is signalled if CL:WILD-PATHNAME-P returns true of FILESPEC. So, if you can't open a stream to a wild-pathname then why would one want to query if the stream were wild? 18:42:10 mon_key: you don't ever do that. 18:42:49 mon_key: that wild-pathname-p takes a pathname designator is a convenience, not a request to use it in ways that don't apply. 18:43:08 sacho [~sacho@95-42-118-162.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 18:43:10 mon_key: perhaps INTERN and FIND-SYMBOL are broken, as well as the lisp reader for (), so that's a good enough way to get NIL; but I'd use (= 1 0) instead. 18:44:06 Xach: The question is more a matter of why the spec included them in 21.1.3 if there is no use case? 18:44:26 There are use cases. But the one you present is not too strong. 18:44:35 mon_key: It looks like that is an attempt to list all functions that accept pathname designators. 18:44:55 mon_key: PATHNAMEP should not be in that list, though. 18:45:28 ED also looks suspect. 18:45:35 mon_key: and often, it's better to extend functions to return NIL rather than signal an error. 18:46:11 pjb: that won't work with (set-macro-character #\0 (lambda (&rest args) 1)) 18:47:10 (defun real-sqrt (x) (if (plusp x) (sqrt x) 0)) is quite reasonable, compared to (defun real-sqrt (x) (if (minusp x) (error "cannot take the real square root of a negative") (sqrt x))). 18:47:14 given #'function how to get 'function ? 18:47:44 clhs function-name 18:47:45 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for function-name. 18:47:50 frx: function-lambda-expression, maybe. 18:48:44 thanks 18:48:53 btw I don't get why I was recommended to store symbols as hash keys instead of functions? (equal #'func #'func) works too 18:49:21 rather (eq #'func #'func) 18:49:23 and equal can be used as make-hash :test 18:49:29 pjb: Xach: So presumably the idea was something along the line sof "b/c a stream is often closely coupled to the _potentiality_ of an underlying file it is permitted to pass WILD-PATHNAME-P a stream argument but it will constantly return NIL" 18:49:30 frx: that's not guaranteed. 18:49:49 pkhuong (eq #'func #'func) => T isn't guaranteed? 18:49:55 nope. 18:50:02 ah ok 18:50:13 mon_key: I think it's more like "It would be really handy to pass a pathname designator to WILD-PATHNAME-P" without thinking overmuch about the stream case. 18:50:19 function-lambda-expression isn't guaranteed to return the function name either 18:50:25 hence "maybe" 18:50:36 why do you need to do that, anyway? 18:50:43 is there no portable way of fetching a symbol given a function 18:50:46 stassats me? 18:51:10 frx: right, why do you want to match a function to something? 18:51:32 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.118.23] has joined #lisp 18:51:42 frx: the definition for function-names has been given here two days ago. 18:52:03 Xach: Or maybe they intended/expected to extend pathnames in a later spec and or in the event of Gray streams.... 18:52:11 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.118.23] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:52:13 I want to create finalizers so I can do (with-objects ((var (constructor ..)) (var some-other-constructor))) and have deconstructor linked to each one called at the end 18:52:19 -!- sword [~user@c-76-115-88-63.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:52:21 drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 18:52:32 pjb: Xach: Thanks for your help in clarifying! 18:52:53 -!- ngz [~user@104.236.75.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:52:53 what name do you like more, with-objects or with-finalizers? 18:52:57 12:00:39 (defun function-names (f) (loop for p in (list-all-packages) nconc (let ((names '())) (do-symbols (s p) (when (and (fboundp s) (eql f (symbol-function s))) (push s names))) names))) 18:53:12 mon_key: maybe they didn't want to make two kinds of pathname designators, pathname designators (strings, pathnames, and some streams) and wild pathname designators (excluding streams) 18:53:19 pjb: i don't think that's what frx is asking for 18:53:46 stassats: what different meaning do you give? 18:53:58 gigamonkey: i never did hear back from gabriel about access to the mail archive 18:54:06 frx: symbol-function 18:54:06 frx: but why do you need a hash-table to link? 18:54:07 frx: There is nothing that directly maps functions to their names. And note also that not all functions have names. 18:54:32 gigamonkey yeah good point I forgot about lambdas 18:54:38 Xach: you wanted to get them from him? 18:54:41 stassats how would you link them? 18:54:47 HG` [~HG@p579F72FB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:56 For publication or for your own perusal? 18:55:20 frx: using a closure? 18:55:32 and some functions have several names, hence function-nameS. 18:55:43 frx: but i think i no longer understand what you want 18:55:46 gigamonkey: i asked if i could review it, and if he would consider publishing it himself to the public. 18:55:47 stassats I don't see how that would work 18:56:03 or letting someone else publish it 18:56:24 gigamonkey: Xach: I would so very much enjoy access to _any_ portion of that -- no matter how edited/redacted to protect the inoocent! 18:56:46 stassats something like this, lets say we want to for whatever reason use C's malloc: (define-finalizer 'malloc 'free) (with-finalizers ((buf (malloc 10)) ; use buf 18:57:58 dnolen [u2594@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dzpnpskbtwftuzhv] has joined #lisp 18:57:58 frx: you can add a delete-duplicates to my function-names. 18:58:03 -!- dnolen [u2594@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dzpnpskbtwftuzhv] has left #lisp 18:58:27 frx: i see, but you don't have functions here, so you can just use symbols 18:58:29 Xach: if it was me, I'd email him again and suggest that if he'll give you access to the tar balls you'll put together a web site and then publish it pending his okay. I.e. volunteer to do all the work. 18:59:06 And point him to your other searchable archive projects to show you know what you're doing. 18:59:38 stassats I suppose, but what if someone does (define-finalizer #'foo #'bar) 18:59:50 gigamonkey: Thanks, I'll give that a try. 19:00:02 frx: you can use eql on functions, and use functions as keys in hash-tables. Who said otherwise? 19:00:12 frx: is define-finalizer a macro? 19:00:16 gigamonkey: Can you tell me the name of the work that studied the email thing as an example of a new style of electronic collaboration? 19:00:41 stassats it can be 19:00:43 -!- TrIpNI [~santero@ool-45720071.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:01:01 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 19:01:09 if it were a function, i'd rather name it associate-finalizer 19:01:17 pjb someone above said that (equal #'func #'func) is not guaranteed to return T. forgot who was it 19:01:29 frx: pkhuong 19:02:02 Xach: How can you forget: "Knee-jerk Anti-LOOPism and other E-mail Phenomena" 19:02:15 stassats how about with-objects vs with-finalizers name 19:02:24 frx: and you can just fail on (associate-finalizer #'foo #'bar) 19:02:38 frx: this is wrong. (equal #'func #'func)  (eq #'func #'func) --> true. 19:02:55 gigamonkey: heh typo right at the top 19:03:17 frx: with-finalizers seems to be more descriptive 19:03:23 frx: it's not guaranted to return T, but it's guaranted to return true. 19:03:25 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.118.23] has joined #lisp 19:03:27 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.118.23] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:03:50 gigamonkey: thanks. 19:04:12 pjb: absolutely not. "In situations where a closure over the same set of bindings might be produced more than once, the various resulting closures might or might not be eq." 19:04:40 and besides, it would fail after redefinitions 19:04:51 pjb ok good to know. so I can just hash functions then? or would you still hash symbols 19:05:11 sword [~user@76.115.88.63] has joined #lisp 19:05:31 pkhuong: and (equal (lambda (x) x) (lambda (y) y)) is indetermined too. 19:05:50 yup. 19:06:50 frx: you shouldn't use functions directly, see my comment about redefinition 19:07:34 assumedly if you redefine a function, you need to redefine the finalizers. 19:08:44 piotrkowalski [~user@87-205-192-146.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #lisp 19:08:56 What happens when you redefine a function in your hash table if you depend on the function definition? 19:09:48 you don't, and we're not talking about definition of finalizers, but merely about associating a constructor with a finalizer 19:09:48 Younder: functions are immutables. If you put a function in a hash table it stays there. 19:10:05 -!- frx [~frx@76.73.16.26] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)] 19:10:06 pjb EXACTKLY 19:10:07 You don't define functions, you define symbols to be fbound to functions. 19:10:11 -!- piotrkowalski [~user@87-205-192-146.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Client Quit] 19:10:52 frx [~frx@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 19:10:53 stassats is define-xx usually reserved for macros? 19:10:59 (the name) 19:11:17 PAtK [~user@87-205-192-146.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #lisp 19:11:36 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:11:49 Kennyd: no 19:12:30 kennyd: yes 19:12:46 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:12:59 ok :) 19:13:00 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:13:13 or just defXX 19:14:26 stassats, it is NOT reserved 19:14:59 "I am sick to death of knee-jerk anti-LOOPism and I am beginning to irrationally regard it as a plot to disable me as a programmer by excommunicating my useful tools." 19:15:04 gozoner [~ebg@128.149.8.170] has joined #lisp 19:15:36 mon_key, try Haskell you will hate it even more 19:15:41 -!- gozoner [~ebg@128.149.8.170] has quit [Client Quit] 19:16:32 Younder: I love Loop! 19:16:47 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 19:17:53 Younder: Was quoting from pg 17 of gigamonkey's afformentioned reference to "Knee-jerk Anti-LOOPism and other E-mail Phenomena" 19:18:32 lanthan [~ze@p54B7A9C8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:47 mon_key, I love loop myself ;) 19:19:02 loop rocks 19:19:47 loop is good if I need it. but i tend to use recursion more. 19:20:51 it's quite handy. :) 19:20:57 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@p57A4029E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:21:03 IMHO The paper echoe's some of what L. Masinter has said elsewhere that maybe some of the most innovative things to come out of the ANSI process was the _process_ itself (paraphrasing) 19:21:51 *stassats* adds j_king to the list of people whose code he refuses to read 19:22:11 aw. :( 19:23:10 -!- sellout1 [~Adium@ALagny-751-1-7-227.w86-218.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:23:24 sellout [~Adium@ALagny-751-1-7-227.w86-218.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:24:00 j_king, no worries I'll still read it.. I'm a Hasleller as well 19:24:10 Haslellel 19:24:12 -!- jdz [~jdz@host116-104-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:24:47 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 19:24:49 but doesn't haskell prevent typing mistakes? 19:24:58 yes 19:25:12 aproparently n0t 19:25:14 Thanks to his strong type system. 19:25:37 Maybe Haskell is drunk. 19:25:41 ok haskeller 19:26:27 stassats: I laughed and a coworker asked me if I was ok. 19:26:38 IRC does not prevent these mistakes however, sorry 19:27:35 Xach, It's a bit worse that that Haskell Curry is dead' 19:28:33 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@173-162-137-153-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:28:57 Worse the curry went bad. 19:29:07 lol 19:29:10 (Those haskelites didn't hear about refrigeration). 19:29:15 OliverUv [~gandhi@195.159.235.178] has joined #lisp 19:29:29 Curries are self-preserving :). 19:30:14 -!- PAtK [~user@87-205-192-146.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:31:01 __PAtK__ [~user@87-205-192-146.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #lisp 19:31:24 how can I iterate through two lists in parallel? (loop (a b) in (something list1 list) .. ) 19:32:37 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:33:01 frx: (loop for a in list1 for b in list2 ...) 19:33:02 nevermind I got it. (loop for a in list1 for b in list2 ... ) 19:33:13 thanks :P 19:33:19 for effort 19:33:19 -!- looopy [~looopy@74.236.131.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:33:36 my mind was in python and I was looking for zip equivalent 19:34:22 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-46-145.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:34:28 (defun zip (lists) (aply (function mapcar) (function list) lists)) 19:35:01 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-060-100.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:35:26 s/aply/apply/ 19:35:45 When you say in parallel do yo mean on separate cores? 19:36:10 jdz [~jdz@host253-110-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:36:19 no I didn't mean that. pjb is apply needed there? 19:37:27 Yes. 19:37:30 clhs mapcar 19:37:30 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mapc_.htm 19:40:23 pjb: haskellites.. Gotta remember that one ;) 19:41:00 -!- __PAtK__ [~user@87-205-192-146.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:41:21 mapcar will map over the cars of an arbitrary number of lists. 19:41:23 ++useful. 19:41:42 (incf useful) 19:41:46 :) 19:42:02 Unless you install some reader macro. 19:42:24 (defvar useful 0) 19:43:05 __PAtK__ [~user@87-205-192-146.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #lisp 19:43:18 Now pjb.. What is the state? 19:44:02 defvar doesn't over write a value if the symbol already has a binding. 19:44:23 Evening^^; 19:44:49 I have a problem. again. 19:44:51 Fade, quite 19:45:29 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:48:25 I seem to be unable to access a variable from within a call to cl-who's with-html-output 19:49:45 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-46-145.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 19:51:31 have you read its documentation? 19:51:46 http://pastebin.com/VVVV7cFP This is how I try to do it. The print works without problems. I have tried to find a reason for this in pcl's macro-section, in the cl-who doc and googled 19:52:15 stassats: yes, although I'm still new and in relation to lisp pretty retarded, so I might've misunderstood something. 19:52:20 you need to wrap your cdr into STR 19:52:36 is str the same as string? 19:52:51 what made you think it is? 19:54:46 only the name 19:56:23 phryk: the cl-who evaluation rules explain why it's happening. 19:57:03 if it's a form in that position, it should side-effect the output stream. 19:57:22 the return value is not used. 19:58:06 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-118-162.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:58:46 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-198.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:59:19 Xach: Thanks. I'll be sure to read that section before I go on trying to do stuff with cl-who, might spare me some trouble :) 20:00:41 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-151-93.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:01:00 i don't use cl-who very much any more, but when i did, i had to refer to the evaluation rules pretty often. i just couldn't internalize them. 20:01:27 but whenever it did something i didn't expect, i would refer to the evaluation rules and it would be explained there. no underdocumented or unexplained parts. 20:02:40 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl22-65-89.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 20:02:51 there are just two things to remember, that you need STR/ESC/ETC for non-strings inside tag bodies, and you don't need them for attributes 20:03:15 Xach: Maybe PATHNAMEP _should_ be mentioned in 21.1.3 -- the example in the spec for TRUENAME esp. w/r/t CLOSE would suggest that it is needeed b/c CLOSE is only specified to return a generalized boolean (and perhaps more). So, in the body of a WITH-OPEN-FILE where the STREAM variable is closed it would then be reasonable to query STREAM for its PATHNAMEP'edness. 20:03:28 When in doubt contact Edi Weits who wrote it. 20:03:44 Younder: he didn't write it 20:04:04 cl-who? Yes he did 20:04:10 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 20:04:32 http://weitz.de/cl-who/#mail has the contact address for cl-who (: 20:04:37 mon_key: i don't see any reference to pathnamep 20:04:39 besides, contacting the author when there's a clear documentation is stupid 20:05:08 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.118.23] has joined #lisp 20:05:11 Xach: what do you use instead nowadays ? 20:05:38 lacedaemon: I haven't made any web-related stuff lately, but the last time I did, I tried to use templates as much as possible. 20:05:48 stassats, agreed 20:06:41 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.118.23] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:07:34 Xach: don't see reference where? 20:07:56 mon_key: I don't see any reference to PATHNAMEP in the spec of TRUENAME. 20:08:08 looopy [~looopy@64.134.177.0] has joined #lisp 20:12:19 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 20:13:56 -!- Kryztof [~user@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:14:15 Kryztof [~user@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 20:14:46 -!- frx [~frx@76.73.16.26] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:14:51 frx [~frx@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 20:15:14 given ((a b) (c d)) is there an simpe way to expand it to (setf a b c d) within a macro? `(setf ,@rest) gives me (setf (a b) (c d)) 20:16:06 alexandria:flatten 20:16:06 frx destructuring-bind 20:16:57 thanks 20:18:00 Xach: there isn't, but the non-normative example does show one possible outcome of CLOSEing the stream in the body of w-o-f and 20.1.3 talks about possible scenarios where type of value of the STREAM variable might change dynamically depending on the stream is CLOSEd. In those situations one can certainly imagine rationales for querying if the type of value for the STREAM variable were PATHNAMEP or some other thing before taking some 20:18:00 further action, e.g. given some assumption predicated an implementation specific return value around a CLOSEd stream one could avoid makeing the potentially more costly call to TRUENAME. 20:19:21 frx: `(setf ,@(reduce #'append '((a b) (c d)))) 20:19:34 mon_key: Sorry, I can't follow what you're trying to suggest. 20:20:03 nice 20:20:22 I actually understand that one, while I'm still trying to wrap my head around destructuring-bind :) 20:21:00 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-157-238.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:21:15 frx: it's not suitable for your task, it's generally a good idea to ignore Younder's advice 20:21:49 stassats, or yours which is terrible 20:23:42 Xach: :) sorry verbal diarhea. 20:25:51 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-145.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:25:56 aoh [~aki@85.23.168.123] has joined #lisp 20:26:18 milanj [~milanj_@79-101-181-174.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 20:27:13 -!- milanj [~milanj_@79-101-181-174.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Client Quit] 20:27:31 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.118.23] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:28:23 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.118.23] has joined #lisp 20:28:33 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@2620:0:2820:b03:214:22ff:fe45:5204] has quit [Quit: Some days you're the pigeon, some days the statue...] 20:29:14 trebor_home [~email@dslb-188-107-192-207.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:01 zfx [~zfx@host86-133-8-97.range86-133.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:31:01 -!- zfx [~zfx@host86-133-8-97.range86-133.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 20:31:01 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 20:33:23 Xach Have you had look at the code for Calentrical Calculations yet? 20:36:21 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.106.54.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:37:35 milanj [~milanj_@79-101-181-174.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 20:37:54 . 20:38:49 frx pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/123421 20:38:56 http://ww.cambridge.org/9780521702386 20:39:06 appreciate if someone can take a look, I probably did something stupid 20:39:07 ww 20:39:28 www 20:39:49 funkey keyboard 20:41:00 frx you know how to paste right? 20:41:20 I think so? 20:41:32 Xof [~user@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 20:42:32 ambitious but totally wrong 20:42:45 what part 20:43:07 -!- sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:43:12 define-finalizer 20:43:14 -!- Kryztof [~user@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:43:45 what's wrong with it 20:45:09 (LET (BUF FP) 20:45:09 (UNWIND-PROTECT (PROGN (SETF BUF (MALLOC 10) FP (FOPEN "test.txt"))) 20:45:09 (PROGN (FUNCALL (GETHASH 'MALLOC *FINALIZERS*) BUF) 20:45:09 (FUNCALL (GETHASH 'FOPEN *FINALIZERS*) FP)))) 20:45:16 this is wild 20:45:22 :) 20:45:39 not getting your point 20:45:50 Younder: you know how to paste to lisppaste, right? 20:46:02 actually I see one mistake in my code 20:46:07 especially if the stuff is already there 20:46:20 stassats, it IS a part of a lisp paste 20:46:22 I did not check if variables were non-nil set before calling constructors 20:46:34 s/set// 20:46:39 uhh 20:46:51 I did not check if variables were not null before calling deconstructors 20:47:07 Younder: why did you paste it in here then? 20:47:51 Younder: A line number likely would have sufficed. :) 20:47:57 sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 20:48:13 i'd rather settle for "being silent" 20:48:50 younder you still did not say what's totally wrong 20:49:10 ,@(loop for var in (get-vars declarations) 20:49:10 for constructor in (get-constructors declarations) collect 20:49:10 `(funcall (gethash ',constructor *finalizers*) ,var))))))) 20:50:42 yes? 20:50:57 the gethash bit ',constuctor 20:51:09 what's wrong there 20:51:21 frx: (var (gensym "VAR-")) and constructor variables aren't used 20:51:39 yeah I don't need them 20:51:47 I'll remove that gensym 20:53:37 -!- HG` [~HG@p579F72FB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:54:19 frx annotated #123421 "Untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/123421#1 20:54:36 stassats annotated #123421 "how i would write it" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/123421#2 20:54:42 frx: here you go 20:55:33 frx: you might want to think about using symbol properties. I.e. hang the name of the destructor off the constructor name. 20:56:14 stassats annotated #123421 "or rather that way" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/123421#3 20:56:23 stassats there's a problem with your way, what if fopen throws call throws condition? malloced memory leaks 20:56:52 gigamonkey: symbol properties are not easy to introspect 20:57:04 gigamonkey can you elaborate? 20:57:10 stassats: what do you mean? 20:58:04 gigamonkey: like say "i want to see all functions with associated finalizers" 20:58:05 frx: (setf (get 'malloc 'destructor) 'free) 20:58:06 stassats see what I mean? (LET ((BUF (MALLOC 10)) (FP (FOPEN "test.txt"))) (UNWIND-PROTECT (PROGN) (FUNCALL (GETHASH 'MALLOC *FINALIZERS*) BUF) (FUNCALL (GETHASH 'FOPEN *FINALIZERS*) FP))) 20:58:10 what utter nonsense 20:58:30 stassats: true. But on the other hand you don't have to worry about having garbage in your hashtable if, say, the name of a constructor gets uninterned. 20:58:59 My rule of thumb (and just a rule of thumb) is information about symbols needed by macros tends to live in symbol properties. 20:59:15 frx: yes, i see 21:00:03 -!- sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:00:09 and it's easier to remove all existing properties at once, just C-M-x at defvar 21:00:15 malloc 10 ? 21:00:22 frx: why would you do that? malloc and fopen could directly push a closure on a list. 21:00:49 sacho [~sacho@87.246.4.214] has joined #lisp 21:00:52 it is not large enough remember the \0 21:01:31 plus, that'd work even with assignment to BUF or FP. 21:01:41 pkhuong I dont get what you mean 21:03:41 -!- jdz [~jdz@host253-110-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:04:18 how does that work gigamonkey? where's the information stored. (setf (get 'malloc 'destructor) 'free) 21:04:37 kennyd: every symbol has a property list hanging off it. 21:04:56 Which you access via GET and which is SETF'able. 21:05:05 ok thanks 21:05:56 -!- milanj [~milanj_@79-101-181-174.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:07:16 zmv [~Telefonic@200-161-255-70.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 21:07:27 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:07:50 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 21:09:28 pkhuong pasted "Dyamically-scoped cleanups" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/123423 21:09:35 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:10:43 stassats annotated #123421 "setting inside UWP" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/123421#4 21:11:07 gigamonkey annotated #123423 "Another variant" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/123423#1 21:11:51 frx: that version I just posted assumes that you'll write your constructor functions to return two values, the actual value and a thunk which cleans up. 21:12:50 gigamonkey annotated #123423 "A constructor function" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/123423#2 21:13:05 wow so many versions :). gigamonkey I see, interesting 21:13:15 right, you could add a list of bindings to with-cleanups. 21:14:40 My version is a bit fragile in that if you accidentally use a function that returns multiple values but which is not really a constructor function (i.e. the second value is not a cleanup thunk) it'll try to funcall some random value. 21:20:50 confab [180a3cb9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.10.60.185] has joined #lisp 21:20:51 that's a handy construct when writing foreign code. I'll snatch it 21:21:02 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@h84n2c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Quit: add^_] 21:22:29 zmv_ [~Telefonic@200-161-255-70.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 21:22:49 don't write foreign code! 21:23:04 writing familiar code gets boring ): 21:23:07 Foreign code is bad. Better rewrite it in lisp. 21:23:10 gigamonkey: that malloc really looks nice 21:23:36 -!- __PAtK__ [~user@87-205-192-146.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:24:21 __PAtK__ [~user@87-205-192-146.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #lisp 21:24:48 -!- __PAtK__ [~user@87-205-192-146.adsl.inetia.pl] has left #lisp 21:25:27 (just never forget to capture the free closure) (: 21:25:37 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@200-161-255-70.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:28:38 antifuchs: yes, well, that's the point of the macro under discussion. 21:29:23 ahh. now the paste history makes sense 21:32:17 what's with % before C function, you both used it. is that a naming convention for foreign functions? 21:32:28 DGASAU` [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #lisp 21:32:34 -!- DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:32:41 one for low-level functions 21:32:46 no, it's a naming conventions for functions you shouldn't call 21:32:47 stuff that's not to be called by the public 21:32:55 ah 21:33:10 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 21:33:16 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:22 -!- zmv_ is now known as zmv 21:37:13 srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has joined #lisp 21:39:18 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-43-98.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:41:12 pnq1 [~nick@AC812405.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 21:41:36 -!- pnq [~nick@172.162.62.46] has quit [Disconnected by services] 21:41:44 -!- pnq1 is now known as pnq 21:41:53 I use % to mean "unsafe, anything could happen if you misuse this" 21:42:06 zmv_ [~Telefonic@200-161-255-70.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 21:42:10 drdo +1 21:42:41 i use % to mean "i'm lazy to come up with a better name for this sub-function" 21:42:53 I use -1 for that (; 21:43:04 (suffixed) 21:43:26 -2, -3, and so on? 21:43:33 yeah 21:43:40 it hasn't come to that yet, thankfully 21:43:48 wait what 21:44:31 "i'm lazy to come up with a better name for this sub-function" (for me) = some-superbly-detailed-function-name-1 (-: 21:44:41 -!- sacho [~sacho@87.246.4.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:45:01 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@200-161-255-70.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:47:30 oh 21:47:55 antifuchs: and then some-superbly-detailed-function-name-1-1? 21:47:55 -!- zmv_ is now known as zmv 21:48:03 Does anyone know any decent irc proxy btw? 21:48:09 stassats: more like -2 21:48:13 drdo: znc is very very good 21:48:20 antifuchs: no it's not 21:48:30 one server per user not acceptable 21:48:32 antifuchs: well, that's a sub-function of a subfunction 21:48:45 drdo: I'm very happy with it. too bad. 21:48:52 -!- pnq [~nick@AC812405.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:48:52 antifuchs: How do you handle this problem? 21:48:56 stassats: or it's the third in a chain 21:49:05 I'm not just about to give admin to everyone 21:49:25 drdo: I make one user per irc network, and log in using each user... picking clients that allow me to do that (: 21:49:36 antifuchs: What if someone wants to add a server? 21:49:53 ah. this is not a single-user setup? then I don't know 21:49:55 other people are going to be using this, not just me 21:50:43 I can't find a decent one :S 21:50:54 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:50:59 Each one of them is retarded in one way or another 21:52:47 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:53:06 hm, previously I was using miau, that wasn't too horrible. but I've only ever used single-user things with an eye towards compatibility with beirc (: 21:53:34 Vivitron [~user@pool-71-174-61-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:19 going to try ircproxy 21:54:46 I'm amazed with out bad these projects are though 21:57:06 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:57:10 sacho [~sacho@87.246.4.214] has joined #lisp 21:57:20 nevermind, ircproxy fixes this problem, but now users can't even choose their server, must be hardcoded in conf file 21:57:32 guess i'm going to have to write one 21:57:43 jajcloz [~jaj@173-162-137-153-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:25 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:01:59 arnsholt [~arne@54.80-203-170.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 22:02:46 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:02:56 -!- martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:03:39 I have a number of string representations of floats in hexadecimal base (1.deadbeef). Can I convince the Lisp reader to read them in as floats somehow? Setting *read-base* to 16 only works for ints it seems 22:03:51 zmv_ [~Telefonic@200-161-255-70.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 22:04:04 martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:05:11 *read-base* is only for rational numbers 22:06:34 The problem I'm actually trying to solve is reading in floats serialized from C as 1.f00p3 into CL, if that helps 22:06:41 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@200-161-255-70.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:07:11 -!- OliverUv [~gandhi@195.159.235.178] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:07:14 that's a problem you'd need to actually solve 22:07:49 Nothing clever I can do beyond parsing the hex float on my own? 22:08:05 Oh well. It was worth a shot at least =) 22:09:47 pnq [~nick@AC813E6F.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 22:12:08 OliverUv [~gandhi@195.159.235.178] has joined #lisp 22:14:05 -!- zmv_ is now known as zmv 22:16:19 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:16:32 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:17:02 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:17:51 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.5] has quit [Quit: Moving, hope they get my net sorted soon.] 22:19:52 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 22:20:37 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:20:58 taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:19 -!- trebor_home [~email@dslb-188-107-192-207.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:24:17 rosario [~rosario@2002:4fcd:cd43:0:21f:e2ff:fea9:b9d8] has joined #lisp 22:25:29 ISF [~ivan@187.106.54.41] has joined #lisp 22:26:28 -!- nixfreak [~Aaron.Mei@mailserver.dayport.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:26:31 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@200-161-255-70.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:26:58 -!- ehu [~ehuels@46.207.255.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:28:12 -!- littlebobby [~bob@unaffiliated/littlebobby] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:28:22 zmv [~Telefonic@200-161-255-70.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 22:30:45 -!- OliverUv [~gandhi@195.159.235.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:30:51 OliverUv [~gandhi@195.159.235.178] has joined #lisp 22:31:07 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:32:58 ngz [~user@104.236.75.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 22:33:37 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@nat/google/x-qmwihdmurvcfqarz] has quit [Quit: Offline] 22:33:41 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:40:51 -!- taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:42:27 -!- looopy [~looopy@64.134.177.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:42:54 zmv_ [~Telefonic@200-161-255-70.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 22:42:59 ymas [~ymas@unaffiliated/ymas] has joined #lisp 22:45:20 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@200-161-255-70.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:47:17 -!- zmv_ is now known as zmv 22:52:40 taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:35 -!- zmv is now known as _ 22:55:59 -!- _ is now known as zmv 22:57:24 -!- bandu [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:58:18 I actually now have something which is far from finished but actually started doing something :) And thanks for letting my obvious stupidity and lack of comprehension for most docs slip for these past two-or-so weeks. You guys made my first real dip into lisp very enjoyalbe (especially pjb who prolly would have smacked me upside my head a few times if he had physical access to me). :] 23:02:45 looopy [~looopy@adsl-074-236-131-226.sip.cae.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:25 phryk: congrats on your progress! (: 23:03:39 zmv_ [~Telefonic@200-161-255-70.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 23:04:52 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:51 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@200-161-255-70.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Disconnected by services] 23:05:54 -!- zmv_ is now known as zmv 23:06:40 And not being smacked. 23:07:21 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.83.65.89] has joined #lisp 23:08:54 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@173-162-137-153-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: jajcloz] 23:17:02 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-67-180-32-11.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:16 -!- sellout [~Adium@ALagny-751-1-7-227.w86-218.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:19:50 vaaal [~vaaal@host241-63-dynamic.31-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 23:19:55 hi guys 23:20:04 how is your policy about download book in pdf? 23:20:20 what? 23:20:30 can i ask a question about a pdf book? 23:20:34 sure 23:20:35 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 23:20:48 someone have a pdf book for clos? 23:20:53 <_3b> if it is legally available, it is OK, 'pirated' books are off topic 23:20:56 i can't find it anyway 23:20:59 vaaal: AMOP? 23:21:04 amop what? 23:21:11 practical common lisp handles CLOS in a few chapters 23:21:11 what amop means? 23:21:14 http://www.amazon.com/Art-Metabobject-Protocol-Gregor-Kiczales/dp/0262610744 23:21:18 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 23:21:24 that's freely available on the web (not a pdf though) 23:21:30 thank you man 23:21:41 it's a good coverage? 23:21:58 (about practical) 23:22:19 also, a few chapters of AMOP are available online, too. see http://www.alu.org/mop/index.html 23:22:36 what is this amop? 23:22:39 it covers most of what you need to know about how to use CLOS in CL 23:22:40 never see it before 23:22:42 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 23:22:43 it's the book i linked 23:22:48 is it a lisp book? 23:22:48 yes i kno 23:22:51 w 23:22:51 Art of the Metaobject Protocol (AMOP) 23:23:08 AMOP is about implementing the object system that lisp uses, in lisp, using that object system. 23:23:30 you can then extend that object system to implement other object systems in it (: 23:23:41 nice 23:23:53 It's a nice, short, book 23:23:58 it's pretty neat and mind-blowing stuff, but for basic usage I think what Practical CL teaches is fine (: 23:24:32 oook 23:24:34 i will use practical 23:24:38 i heard also about 23:24:45 the sonya knee book 23:24:48 (knee? I'm not sure :D) 23:24:52 (sonya for sure) 23:24:53 do you know it? 23:25:02 never heard about it 23:25:07 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:25:24 vaaal: sonya keene, Common Lisp Object System. I know xach has said good things about it and I believe him. :) 23:25:47 http://www.amazon.com/Object-Oriented-Programming-Common-Lisp-Programmers/dp/0201175894 23:25:54 Object-Oriented Programming in Common Lisp: A Programmer's Guide to CLOS sonya kenee 23:26:03 Thanks. Yeah that's the one. 23:26:15 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.118.23] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:26:22 keene's book is good and affordable (: 23:26:33 Be cheap like me and use libraries 23:26:34 I'm not aware of any sample chapters online 23:26:45 but it's pretty short and informative 23:26:47 mm 23:26:56 the problem is still that i can't buy it :D 23:27:13 (i'm not american) 23:27:13 (so amazon.com doesnt' work for me) 23:27:38 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-181-173.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:40 amazon ships everywhere, doesn't it? 23:28:04 I got mine through amazon.de (or .co.uk); maybe you have a regional amazon branch that covers your area? 23:28:27 also, yeah, university libraries might carry it 23:28:40 not here 23:28:40 ^^ 23:28:42 anyway 23:28:48 yea, i read AMOP from my univ's library 23:28:52 i think i will start with practical cl 23:28:56 -!- ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:29:01 cool. good luck (: 23:29:14 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-67-180-32-11.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:29:44 -!- brown is now known as Guest77049 23:30:03 -!- looopy [~looopy@adsl-074-236-131-226.sip.cae.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:32:25 thank you guys ^^ 23:34:33 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-220-99.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:35 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:38:48 -!- parabolize [~paraboliz@203.83.50.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:40:42 -!- martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:43:28 zmv_ [~Telefonic@200-161-255-70.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 23:45:02 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@200-161-255-70.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Disconnected by services] 23:45:03 -!- zmv_ is now known as zmv 23:45:06 -!- rosario [~rosario@2002:4fcd:cd43:0:21f:e2ff:fea9:b9d8] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:45:09 martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:45:27 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-181-173.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:45:35 -!- sacho [~sacho@87.246.4.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:45:41 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-181-173.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:46:14 dnolen_ [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 23:46:42 -!- vaaal [~vaaal@host241-63-dynamic.31-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: http://irc2go.com/] 23:50:24 sacho [~sacho@87.246.4.214] has joined #lisp 23:51:46 -!- benny [~benny@i577A7FD5.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:56:41 -!- sacho [~sacho@87.246.4.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:57:34 -!- ngz [~user@104.236.75.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:58:56 mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:56 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:58:56 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp