00:00:31 Phoodus: SBCL uses a fixed address space (same for CCL), by default at 8GB. the reason it's also a fixed memory mapping is because linux lies ;-) 00:01:34 the mapping is set by --dynamic-space-size 00:01:44 ok, so changing the cmdline will increase the fixed allocation 00:02:52 yes 00:03:26 btw, what kind of app? 00:03:41 long-running ai server 00:04:02 -!- Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:05:07 Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 00:05:14 zort: http://pastie.org/private/xw7teeto7f53wesetmbsw just worked for me 00:07:10 rtoym (and others): What is the fastest/easiest way to generate a matlisp matrix or a lisp array containing the indexes 0..N or a range start..start+N? 00:12:04 jesusito [~user@145.pool85-49-235.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 00:13:00 Anyone awake? 00:13:11 -!- rainyrhy [~rainyrhy@bb220-255-83-118.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:13:21 good day 00:13:23 -!- jesusito [~user@145.pool85-49-235.dynamic.orange.es] has left #lisp 00:13:57 -!- Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:14:12 -!- alama [~alama@d86-33-47-55.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Quit: alama] 00:14:54 Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 00:15:57 rainyrhy [~rainyrhy@bb220-255-83-118.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 00:15:59 -!- rainyrhy [~rainyrhy@bb220-255-83-118.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:16:03 peterhil: make-array + dotimes + setf would be pretty easy 00:16:14 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:16:23 rainyrhy [~rainyrhy@bb220-255-83-118.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 00:16:56 Phoobus: Thanks, something like that will do for now... 00:18:15 certainly not the fastest (creates a list first) but gets bonus cool points for being a one liner.. (coerce (loop for x from start to end collect x) 'array) 00:19:31 drks [~zardoz@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 00:20:13 -!- cheier [~amedueces@c-76-107-19-58.hsd1.ms.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:20:51 heh, one-liner... 00:20:55 regarding speed, any way of programmatically initializing array contents always seems to do dual allocation 00:21:04 well sort of ;) 00:21:30 Just wrap your program in a PROGN, instant one-liner. 00:21:50 I presume that even when using a fill pointer, it'd create the array, fill the contents with uninitialized tags, then you'd overwrite those uninit tags with the real data 00:22:23 instead of some sort of "call this generator function N times for the array contents" and never bother with uninitialized array slots 00:22:38 Phoodus: make-array's :initial-contents or :initial-element keywords? 00:22:53 :initial-contents is again dual-allocation 00:23:03 dual allocation 00:23:03 :initial-element isn't that useful :) 00:23:42 -!- Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:24:52 Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 00:25:47 is ffi what one would use to access C api? 00:26:28 and ffcall 00:26:55 no magic function that parser C headers? :) 00:26:57 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.219.68] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 00:27:00 parses* 00:27:22 don't know 00:27:27 i think not 00:27:46 at least not lisp implementation wise, maybe as addon or so 00:27:51 surely I'm not the first one who thought of something like that. 00:28:10 yeah not expecting it to be part of standard or even implementation 00:29:39 i think someone is working on implementing stuff in sbcl related to that or so 00:31:49 cheier [~amedueces@c-76-107-19-58.hsd1.ms.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:32:03 sup 00:33:32 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A7FB9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:34:03 -!- derekv [~derekv@c-68-62-78-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:34:15 -!- Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:34:24 xan_ [~xan@94.Red-193-152-140.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:50 Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 00:34:58 Phoobus: I thought of making some initializer for matlisp that uses a generator function 00:35:41 ah looks like there are projects like that. http://common-lisp.net/project/fetter/ 00:35:43 derekv [~derekv@c-68-62-78-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:09 http://common-lisp.net/project/c2ffi/ (this one seems to be dead but links to two other ones including the one I pasted above) 00:36:55 drks: There is also cffi, cffi-grovel and uffi 00:37:08 For generating C bindings 00:37:09 http://www.swig.org/ supports it too 00:37:36 have you guys tried a couple? which one is most usable 00:38:09 drks: swig works quite well 00:39:04 drks: unless you want to use a variadic function or C++. For first it takes a one line of CFFI macros, for second... WELCOME. IN. HELL 00:39:53 thankfully I don't need to use C++ 00:43:55 -!- Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:44:07 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:44:36 Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 00:44:54 -!- drks [~zardoz@76.73.16.26] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)] 00:44:57 -!- derekv [~derekv@c-68-62-78-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:50:33 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-20-32-147.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jajcloz] 00:51:59 derekv [~derekv@c-68-62-78-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:01 -!- Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:53:58 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 00:54:10 Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 00:58:16 -!- rainyrhy [~rainyrhy@bb220-255-83-118.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:58:35 I don't have much experience with those, but many projects seem to use cffi. cffi-grovel has some automation. 00:58:45 uffi is an older library, I think 01:01:16 rainyrhy [~rainyrhy@bb220-255-83-118.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 01:01:54 -!- rainyrhy [~rainyrhy@bb220-255-83-118.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:02:20 -!- Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:03:27 Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 01:04:39 Why doesn't the simple-vector type have an element-type property, like the simple-array type? 01:05:29 rainyrhy [~rainyrhy@bb220-255-83-118.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 01:05:50 JohnnyL [~IceChat7@ool-4a5a7407.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:53 Sbcl seems to define dotimes in terms of do, which is very suitable to define a range or numpy indgen type of function 01:12:03 -!- Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:13:26 Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 01:14:24 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:50 davazp [~user@42.Red-88-5-160.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:38 noogenesis [~derekv@c-68-62-78-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:50 -!- derekv [~derekv@c-68-62-78-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:22:13 -!- Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:22:26 cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.123.236] has joined #lisp 01:23:29 Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 01:25:25 -!- Simul [~user@97-93-224-156.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:25:34 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-71-202-151-156.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:31:44 -!- Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:33:19 Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 01:34:01 atumtal [~tal@c-76-28-170-80.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:39:30 -!- razzaway is now known as razieliyo 01:40:32 -!- daimrod [~daimrod@ANantes-556-1-155-39.w109-211.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 01:41:50 -!- Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:42:45 Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 01:43:18 cheezus [~Adium@206-248-160-123.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 01:44:02 youguy_ [~youguy@90.168.33.134] has joined #lisp 01:46:19 -!- cheier is now known as cheier_awy 01:46:26 -!- razieliyo [~user@unaffiliated/razieliyo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:46:46 -!- vlion [~user@76.178.165.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:51:11 -!- Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:52:11 Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 01:53:00 -!- cheier_awy [~amedueces@c-76-107-19-58.hsd1.ms.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:54:02 -!- youguy_ [~youguy@90.168.33.134] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:55:08 fihi09 [~user@pool-96-224-45-213.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:36 -!- taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:00:12 cheier_awy [~amedueces@c-76-107-19-58.hsd1.ms.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:41 -!- Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:01:03 This seems to work pretty well: http://paste.lisp.org/display/122935 02:01:04 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:23 Works properly even for negative steps and positive start 02:01:41 Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 02:03:48 -!- cheier_awy is now known as cheier 02:03:57 (time (setf a (indgen 44100 :start 0 :step 1))) says 02:03:58 0.000803 seconds of total run time (0.000636 user, 0.000167 system) 02:03:58 100.00% CPU 02:03:58 2,209,362 processor cycles 02:03:58 352,816 bytes consed 02:04:08 Cauld maybe do better... :-) 02:04:13 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.54.87] has joined #lisp 02:04:45 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.54.87] has left #lisp 02:05:00 BTW, why SBCL prints such a long array? Was there some options for that? 02:06:39 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:07:17 BrianRice` [~water@174-31-157-30.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:07:18 -!- BrianRice [~water@174-31-157-30.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:07:18 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 02:07:31 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483BF04.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:07:47 littlebobby [~bob@unaffiliated/littlebobby] has joined #lisp 02:07:58 rainyrhy_ [~rainyrhy@bb220-255-52-34.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 02:08:08 -!- rainyrhy [~rainyrhy@bb220-255-83-118.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:08:15 And I get errors like "The value 1.0 is not of type (UNSIGNED-BYTE 60)". 02:08:26 -!- andelf [~andelf@2001:da8:9000:a142:215:afff:feef:8095] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:08:26 Is that some default length for arrays? 02:08:41 Yuuhi [benni@p5483C7C7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:54 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:58 -!- Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:10:21 BrianRice` [~water@174-31-157-30.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:21 -!- BrianRice [~water@174-31-157-30.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:10:21 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 02:11:00 Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 02:11:15 I gave the dimensions... why those errors come? 02:14:30 Daev [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:14:37 -!- Daev [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:15:35 joshmc [~josh@c-98-248-16-132.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:33 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.165.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:19:41 -!- Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:21:04 Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 02:22:38 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 02:23:30 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.165.208] has joined #lisp 02:24:24 jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 02:24:51 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.123.236] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:25:24 -!- joshmc [~josh@c-98-248-16-132.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:30:05 -!- Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:30:23 will franz's imap library run in sbcl? about to find out. 02:30:52 Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 02:30:58 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-106-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:02 nicdev [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 02:31:38 -!- noogenesis is now known as derekv 02:32:01 and this is where I notice I don't actually know what I'm doing. =/ 02:32:28 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-106-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:34:34 -!- Evanescence [~chris@122.237.18.168] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 02:37:11 derekv: Maybe, probably not. But that might be relatively easy to fix. 02:37:35 Or you could try another library. The options seem to be http://common-lisp.net/project/clonsigna/ and http://www.cliki.net/mel-base 02:37:50 clonsigna actually seems very elegant to use 02:39:22 derekv: Why do you need Franz's imap library on SBCL? 02:39:37 -!- Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:40:14 Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 02:41:02 peterhil, I don't, I'm dumb and can't use the internet correctly (cliki node "imap" refers to name of library not a catagory "imap" with only one library in it) 02:41:12 =] =/ 02:42:27 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-106-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:02 -!- splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:45:34 -!- ec|detached is now known as elliottcable 02:46:12 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 02:46:12 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset 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joined #lisp 03:51:22 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 03:53:18 Bike1 [~Glossina@70.98.130.115] has joined #lisp 03:53:25 -!- Bike [~Glossina@70.98.130.115] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:57:20 -!- Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:58:14 Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 04:01:18 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.165.208] has joined #lisp 04:02:39 -!- rainyrhy_ [~rainyrhy@bb220-255-52-34.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:03:39 hunchentoot is go 04:04:49 -!- Bike1 [~Glossina@70.98.130.115] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:06:41 -!- Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:07:16 Bike [~Glossina@70.98.130.115] has joined #lisp 04:07:45 Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 04:10:17 What's an easy way to do a DNS lookup with a CL library? 04:11:35 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.165.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:12:03 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-131-170.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:12:17 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-177-212-194.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:13:31 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-177-212-194.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:13:33 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.165.208] has joined #lisp 04:13:42 taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:55 -!- gko [~user@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has left #lisp 04:16:14 -!- Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:17:14 Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 04:19:41 Bike1 [~Glossina@70.98.130.115] has joined #lisp 04:20:43 -!- Bike [~Glossina@70.98.130.115] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:21:23 lanthan_ [~ze@p54B7C718.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:03 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-177-212-194.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:22:10 -!- JohnnyL [~IceChat7@ool-4a5a7407.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Some folks are wise, and some otherwise.] 04:23:06 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-177-212-194.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:45 -!- lanthan [~ze@p54B7C970.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:24:48 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-116-236.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:40 -!- Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:25:43 -!- Bike1 [~Glossina@70.98.130.115] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:25:54 Bike [~Glossina@70.98.130.115] has joined #lisp 04:26:08 -!- Bike [~Glossina@70.98.130.115] has quit [Client Quit] 04:26:43 Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 04:28:15 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.165.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:28:22 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-71-202-151-156.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:29:31 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-71-202-151-156.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:32:04 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 04:34:02 stupid web page that shows emails from my inbox is go 04:35:25 gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:26 -!- Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:36:04 Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 04:37:20 -!- gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:38:57 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-177-212-194.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:39:16 quotemstr [~quotemstr@dancol.org] has joined #lisp 04:39:29 -!- cheier [~amedueces@c-76-107-19-58.hsd1.ms.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:39:33 It'd be neat if keywords in function position evaluated their arguments. e.g., (:foo bar qux 04:39:41 ) -> '(:foo bar qux) 04:39:51 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-177-212-194.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:43:20 fonger [4596988f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.69.150.152.143] has joined #lisp 04:43:37 gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 04:43:47 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.165.208] has joined #lisp 04:43:49 cheier [~amedueces@c-76-107-19-58.hsd1.ms.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:42 Bike [~Glossina@70.98.130.115] has joined #lisp 04:44:54 -!- Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:45:35 Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 04:45:37 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-71-202-151-156.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:46:43 Modius: Does running the Unix program "host" count? 04:46:44 -!- gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:47:48 gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 04:51:56 quotemstr: you could do that. a keyword is just a symbol, and you can define functions for these symbols 04:53:15 pkhuong: Well, a macro in this case. But that requires listing each keyword used or enumerating all keywords. 04:53:54 -!- Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:54:14 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.165.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:55:09 Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 04:55:29 -!- quotemstr [~quotemstr@dancol.org] has left #lisp 04:55:36 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:01:28 Bike1 [~Glossina@70.98.130.115] has joined #lisp 05:01:43 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.137.63] has joined #lisp 05:01:53 longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has joined #lisp 05:03:48 -!- Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:03:48 -!- Bike [~Glossina@70.98.130.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:04:21 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2ACFD.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:04:42 Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 05:05:02 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[45f86d5e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.69.248.109.94] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:42:44 Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 05:45:16 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.86.238] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:48:39 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.165.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:51:04 -!- Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:51:45 cheier [~amedueces@c-76-107-19-58.hsd1.ms.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:51:50 Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.93.17] has joined #lisp 05:52:09 Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 05:52:29 -!- fonger [4596988f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.69.150.152.143] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:52:47 http://paste.lisp.org/display/122937 <- displays subject of email from pop3 account on web server 05:53:14 not a question, just something stupid I did. 05:53:18 -!- littlebobby [~bob@unaffiliated/littlebobby] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:58:19 cute 06:00:54 -!- Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:01:02 flesh out a few details, and you got gmail. basically. 06:01:21 derekv: right ;) 06:01:38 Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 06:02:38 well, stupid bug. I forgot to save/restore SSE registers around a C call that wound up using memset. 06:03:24 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-145-79.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 06:08:18 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.165.208] has joined #lisp 06:10:13 -!- Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:11:06 Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 06:12:23 -!- symbole [~user@ool-4a5a4bdd.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:12:28 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-174-180.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:16:07 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 06:20:19 -!- Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:20:24 Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 06:27:22 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@S01060026f3e2a647.vc.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 06:28:57 -!- Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 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quit [Quit: leaving] 09:19:32 yroeht [yroeht@178-63-240-156.s4.vps.tonbnc.fr] has joined #lisp 09:20:21 -!- cheier [~amedueces@c-76-107-19-58.hsd1.ms.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:22:22 -!- Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:23:12 Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:24:16 mobydick [~textual@124-171-66-138.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:25:20 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-210-247.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:31:49 -!- Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:33:17 Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:34:06 c_arenz [~arenz@p5B2CAD33.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:36:02 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 09:39:47 francogrex [~user@109.130.217.87] has joined #lisp 09:40:04 http://paste.lisp.org/display/122938 how to not have those errors? 09:40:15 or warnings actually 09:42:09 -!- Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:42:50 Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:42:55 (declare (ignore char1 char2)) 09:43:02 as the first form inside your lambda 09:43:06 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:44:41 Phoodus: ok but then it will not messup with the reader macro? 09:44:55 because those are used the char& and char2 aren't they? 09:45:06 char1 I mean 09:49:18 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.217.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:50:46 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-108-81-171-51.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:51:53 cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.123.236] has joined #lisp 09:51:57 -!- Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:52:49 Pathin_ [~root@77-22-92-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:55:27 -!- Pathin_ 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[~Beetny@ppp118-208-58-169.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:00:41 hi 12:00:49 any gsll or clem user here? 12:05:57 Joreji [~thomas@90-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:09:19 -!- splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:10:26 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c711b3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:52 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.165.208] has joined #lisp 12:19:24 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 12:19:42 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.165.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:20:34 npoektop_ [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 12:23:09 -!- npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:23:09 -!- npoektop_ is now known as npoektop 12:27:37 ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:29:50 youguy [~youguy@90.168.33.134] has joined #lisp 12:29:56 Eren [~eren@unaffiliated/eren] has joined #lisp 12:30:08 -!- razieliyo [~user@unaffiliated/razieliyo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:30:51 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:31:46 is there a beginner's guide of how lisp is interpreted when we invoke the interpreter? What I need is the big-picture with some information 12:32:07 jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.37.177] has joined #lisp 12:32:09 I mean, for example, in what stage macros are processed etc 12:33:01 Eren: Common Lisp Hyperspec has the portable stuff 12:34:30 also, it's rarely interpreted, so if you start SBCL (for example), what actually happens is that the runtime gets set up, whatever is in initialization file is compiled and ran, and the implementation calls its "main" function (by default, a REPL) 12:34:52 hm 12:34:56 macros are processed during compilation 12:35:04 (full details in CLHS) 12:36:32 razieliyo [~user@unaffiliated/razieliyo] has joined #lisp 12:36:37 hi 12:36:49 what library should I use for sockets? 12:37:00 C-Keen [cckeen@pestilenz.org] has joined #lisp 12:37:01 reading the cl-cookbook it says that PORT library should fit 12:37:06 but maybe it's a bit outdated 12:37:06 -!- xan_ [~xan@94.Red-193-152-140.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:37:10 what do you think? 12:37:54 Eren: I recommend you go through Practical Common Lisp or Land of Lisp first - thy will explain som eof that stuff because it's actually related to programming CL, and then you can use CLHS to fill the gaps (it's basically a copy of the standard in nicer format..) 12:38:01 razieliyo: usocket 12:38:13 p_l|backup: I already started reading land of lisp and practical common lisp 12:38:19 p_l|backup: ok, thanks! 12:38:21 or, if you use linux (and possibly other unices), iolib 12:38:37 p_l|backup: I do, so what? iolib or usocket? 12:38:45 p_l|backup: just read 2 chapters on land of lisp 12:38:51 and started practical common lisp :) 12:39:02 Eren: I'm on chapter 6 with land of lisp and it gets pretty funny 12:39:22 razieliyo: yeah, absolutely.. the comics are pretty elegant 12:39:40 and explanations, they go to the point 12:39:57 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.165.208] has joined #lisp 12:40:29 razieliyo: usocket might be easier to get running, and is probably better documented. iolib is definitely more advanced 12:40:34 -!- youguy [~youguy@90.168.33.134] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:40:51 p_l|backup: ok, so I would just use usocket 12:40:59 also, it's downloadable with quicklisp 12:41:18 well, iolib is too 12:41:28 anyway, usocket will fit, I'm kinda new to lisp 12:41:33 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:40 razieliyo: okie, I will be patient and see the following chapters then :) 12:42:07 Eren: are you starting with lisp too? 12:43:34 razieliyo: I already coded some Racket throughout the year 12:43:59 so, I'm not new to FP. As a team, we decided to learn CL and here I am 12:44:08 haha 12:44:16 I went through scheme too, but just a few days 12:44:26 HTDP is a good book to learn functional programming :) 12:44:35 I'll have to take a look at it 12:44:48 I just read some quick tutorials from the internet, also some lambda calculus tutorials 12:44:56 if you already know high-order functions, generetive and structural recursion 12:45:12 Soulman [~knute@101.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 12:45:12 + how to design your software 12:45:23 you would be bored 12:45:37 yes, a little 12:45:54 well, I find all this about FP and everything pretty interesting 12:46:17 what I learned from HTDP is (with the press of our lecturers) that I learned to define my data and functions very explicitly 12:46:17 now I'm finding C++ just a bunch of junk 12:46:39 Eren: so, it's a should-read I think 12:46:41 genieliu [~genieliu@59.78.62.120] has joined #lisp 12:46:44 so, I actually learned how to design programs (as the name suggests) a bit :) 12:46:54 haha, I need lots of that 12:47:17 Eren: did you started in the game with land of lisp? 12:47:28 started = start 12:48:14 razieliyo: yeah, basically, before you start to code, you should write a definition of the data first. Later, function's contract (which types of data it gets, and produces), function's examples (if x is given, then y should be out), function's test 12:48:33 function's template 12:48:37 and finally, you write the actual code :) 12:48:48 razieliyo: yeah, I did, it was guess my number game, right? 12:48:48 and all of that is inside HTDP, isn't it? 12:48:49 Eren: the short answer is: (defun eval (form) (funcall (compile nil (list 'lambda '() form)))) 12:48:54 razieliyo: yep 12:49:03 Eren: I'm gonna have fun this summer, I know it 12:49:16 Eren: by the way, I meant the text-adventure game 12:49:30 pjb: actually all the stuff above was comment in the program :) 12:49:39 razieliyo: no, I finished reading chapter 2 yesterday 12:49:44 Eren: the long answer is in chapter 3 of clsh. 12:49:47 clhs 12:50:19 Eren: oh, nice, you'll have lots of fun 12:50:20 razieliyo: today, I should read until chapter 5 from Land of lisp, and chapter 3 from practical common lisp 12:50:28 pjb: noted it 12:51:16 I'm beginning to realize that I use FP approach when I code python 12:51:21 until now, I was a garage programmer 12:51:45 but when I dived into FP world, I saw that everything began to change (from habits to writing style) :) 12:55:36 I guess I can now understand the phrase "every programmer should learn FP in some day" 12:58:26 Wait till you read SICP... 12:59:22 yeah, 2 years later, I guess 12:59:28 our COMP 313 is based on SICP 13:00:00 The sooner you read it the better it is. At MIT it was 6.001 13:01:24 pjb: is there any prequisite for SICP? 13:01:43 I mean would you say "read it after you get data structures and algorithms first" 13:01:44 None. 13:01:50 001 is the first course. 13:02:10 so it's a freshmen course? 13:03:48 Yes 13:03:53 oh, ok :) 13:05:10 Eren: and how is that about reading two books at the same time? 13:05:22 do you think it was better to read HTDP first? 13:06:09 razieliyo: it depends. since I studied HTDP for 1 year, we did nearly all of the examples on it 13:06:10 -!- nicdev [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: nicdev] 13:06:32 keeping the design recipe in mind 13:07:24 now I don't know if keep on with LoL or go with HTDP 13:07:59 razieliyo: you can watch our lectures 13:08:05 razieliyo: http://video.cs.bilgi.edu.tr/filter/serie/COMP%20149-150%20-%20HtDP 13:08:47 razieliyo: it will give you the idea quickly, and if you find yourself reading 2 books at the same time, you can just go to HTDP website and start solving exercises :) 13:09:12 nice, thanks Eren =) 13:09:15 are you at university? 13:09:35 razieliyo: yep 13:10:00 razieliyo: btw, some parts would be in Turkish, they will eventually switch to English as the lecture is recorded :) 13:10:12 that's what I was going to ask you 13:10:25 if it's in english, because the first one, I don't understand anything 13:10:46 no, the lecturer just presents what will be done in Turkish in the first video 13:10:48 don't worry :) 13:11:33 -!- incandenza [~incandenz@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 13:11:54 ok, well, it just turn into english 13:12:32 I'm spanish, but luckily I'm understanding everything in english by now 13:13:21 razieliyo: since the lecturer is not native, I don't think you will have any problems in understanding 13:13:42 yes, his speaking is very understandable 13:14:45 by the end of the videos, you will learn design recipe, how to represent data, self-referential data structure, structural recursion by looking at the data defition, generetive recursion 13:15:12 it's a shame that in my university, there was a FP subject, but this year they've removed it 13:15:23 just one subject, and now there's nothing 13:15:31 anyway, I'll learn it by myself 13:15:39 razieliyo: that's how programmers learn :) 13:15:48 it's a shame, but you can do it by yourself 13:15:57 yes, internet power haha 13:16:04 yeah =) 13:16:22 many people in my class are just like parrots when they're programming 13:16:22 is there a null stream? 13:16:35 and eventually, they don't know what they're doing 13:16:38 I want to temporarily disable printing to stdout 13:16:38 razieliyo: what's your curriculum at uni? 13:16:50 Eren: I'm still on the first year 13:16:54 so I've not so much to say about it 13:16:55 -!- BrokenCog [~bc@ip98-162-173-207.pn.at.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:17:10 razieliyo: at least, what's your curriculum in first year :) 13:17:16 you mean my subjects? 13:17:19 yeah 13:17:54 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.165.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:18:11 calculus, algebra, concrete maths, physics (just electric), digital electronics, some of analogic electronics, introduction to OOP and data structures 13:18:28 oh, is it engineering? 13:18:39 also one subject about economics 13:18:39 cesarbp [~cbp@189.247.164.87] has joined #lisp 13:18:43 Eren: yes, it is 13:19:00 pjb: can you give me the link that states SICP is a freshmen course at MIT? 13:19:02 kennyd: (close *STANDARD-OUTPUT*) ? 13:19:24 pjb: as I don't know the course names, I am not sure what I found is correct 13:19:44 Eren: algorithms too, I forget, but this year we just had 3 subjects about programming, and we have had 10 subjects every year 13:19:47 daimrod that looks pretty invasive. how do I open it again? I was thinking something like this (let ((*standard-output* null-stream)) .. ) 13:19:58 by the way, tomorrow I have an exam, and on thursday the last one =) 13:20:05 that's because I'm lacking with LoL 13:20:28 razieliyo: ah, I study computer science, and we are more math-headed 13:20:45 I see, here in spain there's no computer science 13:20:48 just computer engineering 13:20:49 razieliyo: in our first year, we did calculus, HTDP, discrete maths and academic skills 13:21:03 wow, I'd like to have that course 13:21:08 kennyd: you're right, but I don't know if there's one :( 13:21:32 razieliyo: here in Turkey, too. Our university is among the few universities that have *real* CS department 13:22:02 Eren: so, you're very lucky 13:23:00 kind of, we have our problems as well with uni 13:23:05 but I feel lucky, yes :) 13:23:16 Eren: I didn't say sicp is 6.001, I said it was 6.001. 13:23:25 pjb: oh 13:23:32 pjb: I missed it, sorry 13:23:42 -!- maxigas` [~user@mail.szervermegoldasok.hu] has left #lisp 13:23:45 so, in which year it is presented now? 13:23:48 scip http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-4.html http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/ 13:24:07 They switched to Python a couple of years ago and regret it ever since. 13:24:21 (well, arguably, 6.001 nowadays is taken by "non-programmers". 13:24:22 ) 13:24:38 oh, okie 13:25:37 *Eren* away a bit, continues to read practical common lisp 13:25:55 taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:42 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.165.208] has joined #lisp 13:33:15 -!- npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:33:36 npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 13:33:37 ffx [~asdfff@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 13:33:47 hi. I am trying to create a new loop syntax that is similar to C's for loop. having a bit trouble: http://paste.lisp.org/display/122939 13:33:58 incandenza [~incandenz@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:21 Is there way to macro-expand compiler macros? 13:44:23 ehu [~ehuels@109.34.254.163] has joined #lisp 13:45:00 ASau [~user@176.14.113.149] has joined #lisp 13:47:55 Bahman [~bahman@2.146.20.6] has joined #lisp 13:48:26 Hi all! 13:50:07 can anyone recommend a book of LISP design patterns? 13:50:27 or in general a site where I can see "excellent" LISP code? 13:50:54 Addition for lispjobs https://freshplum.com/jobs/ 13:51:17 chu_ [~chu@CPE-58-165-253-149.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 13:51:42 frito [~user@cpc2-sotn4-0-0-cust13.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 13:51:56 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:51:59 taiyal: PAIP is a good one 13:58:04 -!- cesarbp [~cbp@189.247.164.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:58:55 francogrex [~user@109.130.217.87] has joined #lisp 13:59:45 -!- frito [~user@cpc2-sotn4-0-0-cust13.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:02:13 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-119-240.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:26 wow, I am amazed with slime although I am a vim user for 5 years 14:07:29 time to learn emacs, I guess 14:07:31 :) 14:08:01 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.165.208] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:11:36 Eren: you can try vimpulse 14:12:44 emacs/slime is the best way 14:12:54 vimpulse is like viper? Vi emulator? 14:13:08 kennyd: yes, but with much more features 14:13:11 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.254.163] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:13:22 like ci" 14:13:24 daimrod: I guess it adds vi functionality to emacs 14:13:26 anyhow, the emacs tutorial takes like ten minutes to run through. 14:13:30 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.165.208] has joined #lisp 14:13:31 as I have RSI, I cannot use my left hand much 14:13:42 I solved this problem by changing CAPS with CTRL 14:13:52 however, emacs forces me to use my left hand much even if I switched teh keys 14:14:01 I feel more comfortable with vi, in that sense 14:14:06 I'm a vim refugee as well, might give vimpulse a try 14:14:36 well, I guess that's the best reason I've heard yet for using Vi. lol 14:14:49 Nothing wrong with vi users. I've always been an Emacs person, but I've never understood the "war". vi is a great tool too. Different, but also great. 14:14:59 Fade: haha, I'm not a vi fanboy :) 14:15:10 it's the truth. 14:15:30 I had a few attemps to use emacs before, but no luck, with the same reason 14:15:51 I guess you could use the right set of command keys. 14:15:59 slime is really great. 14:16:00 I really liked the slime REPL. It shows function's args when you are to use it 14:16:03 I've been trying to slowly convert my colleagues to Emacs (they're barely even vi users, preferring things like gedit(!)) 14:16:31 loke: were they recently moved from windows? 14:16:37 Fade: lol 14:16:37 It's slow path, but once they see some key features, they commit themselves to trying it, and before you know it they "get it" 14:16:42 Fade: yeah 14:16:55 awesome journey, from windows to emacs 14:17:18 The ones that are still on Windows are harder to convince (which is remarkable, since the selection of editors are even worse there) 14:17:29 the only reason to prefer something like gedit is if you've been programming in windows with whatever visual ide that corrupts people on that platform. :) 14:17:47 although I hear ultraedit is actually a good program. 14:17:51 I've been trying to get them interested in Lisp too. That's harder, but at least they understand _why_ it's great, even though they haven't started using it. 14:18:31 Well, for Java I use IntelliJ IDEA. I had to write my own plgin to give me the bare mimum of Emacs editing commands though :-) 14:19:02 tcr1 [~tcr@host59.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:19:10 yeah.. one of the things that bothered me about dr[scheme|racket] was that the editor wasn't emacs-like. 14:19:10 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@host59.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Client Quit] 14:19:29 ffx: well the first problem is that it's not like C for... 14:20:12 If C-k doesn't work the way I'm used to, I go crazy 14:20:21 ditto 14:20:32 Eren: emacs doesn't forces anything. And there are as many modifiers on the right side of a 107-key keboard than on the left side. 14:20:37 -!- loke [~elias@bb121-6-175-58.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:21:23 pjb: yeah, but after a long relationship with vim, my fingers happen to be on "hjkl" 14:21:39 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-119-240.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:21:41 fiveop_ [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-126-199.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:48 I would probably be spending a few days configuring/learning emacs for coding lisp 14:22:11 it's a fact that emacs is #1 editor for lisp code :) 14:22:16 loke [~elias@bb219-74-91-22.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 14:22:24 slime + paredit is a very powerful combination. 14:22:31 fade: the main thing that bothers me about Scheme is that it's not Lisp :-) 14:23:02 loke: it's close enough for most of the uses I've had for it. 14:23:18 its not lisp in what way? 14:23:25 ffx: it's scheme 14:23:39 which is a lisp, no? 14:23:43 ffx: it diverged from the common ancestor a long long time ago. 14:24:17 well, depends on terminology. Some people like to refer to Schema as "a lisp", although I try to avoid that. It does nothing but cause confusion. 14:24:27 hell, drracket doesn't even claim to be scheme anymore. 14:25:14 If scheme, racket or even clojure are called lisp, then what is lisp? Parantheses conses? 14:25:57 loke: I guess practical cl's beginning section explains it 14:26:00 a homoiconic language with a minimal syntax, I guess. 14:26:23 Racket = "a lisp dialect with minimal core for programming language teachers and researchers" ? 14:26:38 ffx: http://paste.lisp.org/display/122939#1 14:28:42 pjb nice 14:28:43 vimpulse does everything I need btw 14:28:46 thanks for the tip! 14:28:56 -!- rosario [~user@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:29:34 urandom__ [~user@p548A5F25.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:01 ffx: why do you want that construct? 14:31:39 i dont i wanted to write it for practice 14:31:44 ah 14:33:03 zmv [~daniel@c95315ce.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 14:34:59 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 14:35:00 urs_ [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 14:35:08 -!- urs_ [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 14:35:37 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.217.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:37:17 nicdev [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:37:30 loke: a family of languages sharing certain features? For example, being defined/written directly in the AST form (with possible "reader syntax" part) 14:37:42 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:39:11 -!- ffx [~asdfff@76.73.16.26] has quit [Quit: .] 14:40:06 -!- jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.37.177] has quit [Quit: bye] 14:40:27 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.165.208] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:40:35 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.165.208] has joined #lisp 14:43:57 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 14:52:27 -!- Guest35252 is now known as xristos 14:53:14 carlocci [~nes@93.37.214.164] has joined #lisp 14:55:48 rosario [~user@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:31 -!- longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 15:01:57 p_l|backup: that's too broad of a definition. I could easily conceive a language that matches that description but where you'd be hard-pressed to call "a lisp" 15:03:04 jtza8 [~AndChat@41.15.134.106] has joined #lisp 15:03:16 loke: it's not an exhaustible feature list :P 15:04:32 lisp is a family of languages 15:04:39 -!- genieliu [~genieliu@59.78.62.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:05:42 scheme is a lisp. one is free to argue otherwise, but one would be arguing against several authorities I think. (which I'm not). 15:05:50 -!- nicdev [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: nicdev] 15:05:51 (an authority) 15:06:09 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 15:06:21 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:06:42 +1 for Scheme is a Lisp 15:07:11 derekv: I have no interest in arguing against them, regardless of my own opinion. It'd just end up being a pointless framewar 15:07:35 I just wish there was a better common word for the "lisps" 15:07:51 loke I agree re the word lisp itself 15:08:12 the joke is a bit old. 15:08:14 enupten [~neptune@117.192.83.173] has joined #lisp 15:08:25 What's wrong with "lisps"? 15:08:27 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 15:08:52 <``Erik> mostly a heredity moniker, no? descendents of 'LISP' in the 50's? kinda like C and java are algol family languages? 15:09:04 nicdev [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:09:13 -!- enupten [~neptune@117.192.83.173] has quit [Client Quit] 15:09:31 I just don't like how the word sounds. Though it is a good motivator for me to not talk to friensd/coworkers about it, cause they will start making jokes about vocal lisps which is always "hilarious" 15:09:38 Euthydemus: well, my personal objection has to do with the fact that when someone says: "I developed this application in Lisp", it's highly likely he did it in (Common) Lisp and somewhat unlikely he used Scheme. In most cases "Lisp" refers to Common Lisp or one of the close relatives, not Scheme. 15:09:57 So, to me, it's about the confusion and overloading of the word "lisp" 15:10:12 I think LISP is for the family? 15:10:39 Its like saying "I run Unix" 15:10:42 Euthydemus: I have no idea, frankly. Which is, I suppose, part of the problem. 15:10:43 La0fer [~Laofers1@64.120.233.114] has joined #lisp 15:10:49 derekv: Indeed. 15:11:12 Why do we need a common term, though? 15:11:20 taxonomies are usually stupid. 15:11:37 if only because they give rise to these kinds of discussions. 15:12:00 Euthydemus: We don't. We just need a term that refers to Common Lisp (and friends). That's what I used the word "Lisp" to refer to, which is what started this whole discussion :-) 15:12:33 but I think it's pretty well established at this point in history that CL is Lisp, and scheme is another take on lambda calculus for programming using a similar written representation. 15:12:52 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-194-79.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:12:55 leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has joined #lisp 15:13:20 -!- elliottcable is now known as ec|detached 15:13:21 Fade: Isn't that the point I've been trying to make? :-) 15:13:41 loke: no. Everything's in the nuances. 15:13:42 you want a real chuckle, go hang out at one of the entemology conferences and listen to the beatle guys talking about what is and isn't a beatle. 15:13:55 no way, scheme is lisp, but it's also not lisp 15:13:57 fade: Haha. I can imagine. 15:14:36 scheme has the big advantage over all the other programming languages (apart CL of course), that it is easier to write a Common Lisp implementation in scheme than in other languages. 15:14:45 (apart CL of course). 15:15:06 that seems unlikely 15:15:36 And it's even easier to write a scheme in Common Lisp. I'm not sure what point cam be proven by that though :-) 15:15:52 that seems like a wildly uncontroversial characterisation of scheme. 15:16:43 if I can't have CL, I wouldn't be too heartbroken to have scheme. 15:16:55 and I do like call/cc :) 15:16:58 *Fade* shrugs 15:17:01 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-152.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:17:31 ptimothyp [~timothy@122.150.240.237] has joined #lisp 15:17:35 somebody setf'd *print-circle* to t 15:17:35 does any Common Lisp implementation provide call-with-current-continuation? 15:18:09 loke: it has been hacked up several times in limited ways. 15:18:32 ucw and weblocks both have different implementations. 15:18:35 fade: exactly. limited. The question was whether any CL implementations have provided it as a core feature? 15:18:48 fade: don't they solve it using their own evalutaor? 15:18:56 code walking 15:18:57 yeah 15:19:19 fade: that contains so many pitfalls it's not even funny :-( 15:19:25 call/cc isn't in the spec, so no CL implements. 15:21:22 -!- npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:21:41 Fade: I don't think any CL implements only the spec :-) 15:21:47 case in point: threads 15:22:11 or allegro's modern mode. 15:22:35 What is that? 15:22:42 i think the infrastructure to supply an integrated call-with-current-continuation is non trivial and has impact in other places. 15:22:53 it's a case sensitive reader. 15:23:02 maybe the code walking version is good enough 15:23:13 (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :preserve) is conforming. 15:23:21 StrmSrfr: It would be, if CL allowed a code walker to actually br written 15:23:28 s/br/be/ 15:23:36 -!- ec|detached is now known as elliottcable 15:23:39 oh? what's missing? 15:23:40 npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 15:24:25 Nothing really. 15:24:28 StrmSrfr: the problem is that certain special forms are macroexpanded into implementation-specific calls. These calls can't be code-walked unless the code-walker has knowledge of the internals of the implementation. 15:24:45 loke: you're wrong. 15:25:04 loke: the interpretion of special forms doesn't depend on the implementation. That's by definition what a special form is. 15:26:44 pjb: Well, I could be wrong about which forms it was, but the issue were cetainly with macroexpansions expanding into implementation-spefcific stuff that needed special knowledge to parse. The usenes thread on the subject had some nice examples 15:26:53 usenet even 15:26:53 can't you address them before they're macroexpanded? 15:27:10 sounds like an issue only if you need portability then. 15:27:16 loke: well, you mean that you cannot use macro-expand as a code walker without precautions. 15:27:21 StrmSrfr: that was the problem. You can't know what they are unless you know about the specifics about the implementation 15:27:25 pjb: yes 15:27:35 loke: indeed, if you want to implement a nice code walker, you better implement the minimal compilation yourself. 15:27:53 couldn't you write some version of macroexpand that only expands macros that aren't part of CL? 15:28:19 In any case, if you want to walk code, it's not to expand macros, it's to do some specific processing for some specific operators, and in particular, to collect the lexical environment at each step. 15:28:38 The only way to do it conformingly is to do it yourself. 15:28:43 pjb: yeah. in most cases, yes. But for a call-cc implementation, you need to do more, yes? 15:29:01 You need to implement a compiler, yes. 15:29:33 pjb: exactly. Now what I wish existed was examply that, but standardised so it could be used everywhere 15:30:00 I started working on one. At the speed I'm working on it, perhaps next year it'll be available. 15:30:08 pjb: wow. that's quick 15:30:10 Another one will be eventually implemented in sicl. 15:30:16 sicl? 15:30:27 (perhaps it'll be mine, if I'm quicker than Robert, which is not won yet). 15:30:41 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-152.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:30:52 http://common-lisp.net/project/sicl/ 15:31:12 Are you maintaining that page? 15:31:17 "Downlaoad releases" 15:31:18 ahh.. isn't this the project that beach was working on? 15:31:31 :-) 15:31:42 No, Robert Strandh is. 15:31:46 Yes. 15:32:22 how much is actually done? very little? 15:32:38 He's progressing consistently. 15:35:22 this is pretty neat. 15:37:36 francogrex [~user@109.130.217.87] has joined #lisp 15:39:24 skalawag [~user@c75-111-9-153.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:34 pnq [~nick@AC81EDF9.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 15:42:47 what is the expansion of the SICL acronym? 15:44:32 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 15:45:17 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-194-79.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:46:22 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.217.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:50:54 -!- chu_ [~chu@CPE-58-165-253-149.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:51:08 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-74-67-199-254.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:53:18 Fade: ;;; The preliminary name for this project is SICL, which doesn't stand 15:53:18 ;;; for anything in particular. Pronounce it like "sickle". 15:54:00 Fade: If there ever was an expansion it is apparanetly supposed to be forgotten :) 15:54:06 :) 15:54:10 this is a good idea. 15:54:16 a common lisp construction kit. 15:54:40 so the point of this is that if I want to roll my own common lisp, if can have a working system right away and replace parts as I choose? 15:55:59 sure 15:56:11 I doubt that's the whole point, but it's one of them. 15:56:23 there's a paper describing the project in the git repo. 16:02:27 -!- derekv [~derekv@c-68-62-78-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:05:54 -!- razieliyo [~user@unaffiliated/razieliyo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:05:54 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-152.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:08:51 ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 16:09:20 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:09:25 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt is now known as ianmcorvidae 16:12:05 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:12:26 -!- ptimothyp [~timothy@122.150.240.237] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:13:29 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-216-185.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:15:39 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@host86-139-109-254.range86-139.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:17:02 derekv [~derekv@c-68-62-78-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:02 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-98-113-194-183.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:18 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.205] has joined #lisp 16:20:57 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.65.214.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:21:21 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.165.208] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:21:43 cmm [~cmm@109.65.214.78] has joined #lisp 16:24:32 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81EDF9.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:24:50 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 16:25:11 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 16:27:42 cheezus1 [~Adium@206-248-160-123.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 16:28:33 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-125-163.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:09 -!- derekv [~derekv@c-68-62-78-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:29:40 derekv [~derekv@c-68-62-78-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:47 well, emacs does not automatically indent the code 16:29:57 should I set a configuration for it? :\ 16:30:40 Eren: try to use C-j instead of 16:31:55 sabalaba [~sabalaba@75.101.62.95] has joined #lisp 16:32:18 daimrod: oh, ok, but is it a normal way to do it? :) 16:32:32 _Ray_ [~Fede@OL45-232.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 16:32:33 -!- leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:34:19 Eren: yes, many modes implement their own function to indent then bound it to C-j 16:34:34 <_Ray_> Hi :) For someone who hasn't done lisp (ever), but is reasonably comfortable with functional programming (Haskell), which dialect of lisp would you recommend I learn first? 16:34:57 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-216-185.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:35:19 daimrod: thanks, so I will be using C-j always then 16:35:31 daimrod: why isn't bound to ? 16:35:52 _Ray_: What do you plan to use it for? 16:36:13 <_Ray_> Learning and general fun. CS student. I'm told my life won't be complete without knowing a lisp. 16:36:30 Eren: I don't know 16:37:42 Eren: (global-set-key "\r" 'newline-and-indent) 16:37:55 try this 16:38:07 -!- cheezus1 [~Adium@206-248-160-123.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:38:42 _Ray_: well this is a lisp channel so most people will suggest lisp. if you ask #scheme I guess they will suggest scheme. 16:39:15 <_Ray_> As a token of my ignorance, I thought lisp was a "metalanguage", with "lisp the programming language" being "common lisp". Is this true? 16:39:30 _Ray_: Maybe flip a coin. or roll a dice if you have more options. scheme might appeal to you more if you like functionalism. 16:39:52 Wouldn't you guys agree that scheme is a better entry-point, though? 16:39:55 _Ray_: most people here mean "common lisp" when they say "lisp". 16:40:09 Euthydemus: I can't see why. 16:40:15 It's simpler :) 16:40:23 *schmrkc* shrugs. 16:40:26 asm is simpler. 16:40:37 fourier: thanks 16:40:40 No, it isn't ... 16:41:06 dunno what's not simpler about it. 16:41:13 You can pick up most of scheme in a few days, then you can move on to Lisp if you'd like. 16:42:03 _Ray_: I'd go with lisp because you get a nice object system and what not. 16:42:19 *_Ray_* will flip a coin :) 16:42:36 <_Ray_> I've also heard about Clojure, but that's more for when I'm comfortable with either common lisp or scheme, right? 16:42:47 No. 16:42:52 _Ray_: You could even start with emacs lisp: http://dorophone.blogspot.com/2011/04/deep-emacs-part-1.html 16:42:58 You just need a three sided coin. 16:43:16 _Ray_: but really, Common Lisp is the best lisp. I'd advise you to read PAIP. 16:43:25 _Ray_: clojure is a language unto itself. You don't need to be comfortable with CL or scheme to use it. 16:43:26 Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp 16:43:39 <_Ray_> Cool. Thanks :) 16:43:50 Or PCL 16:43:57 this stuff that dto is doing is pretty neat. 16:44:02 _Ray_: alternatively, you may read sicp: Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-4.html http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/ 16:44:13 Fade: yes. 16:44:13 ,minion pcl 16:44:18 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrkvAXa_RV0 16:44:38 In this case he already knows haskell but I don't understand when you guys recommend Lisp over Scheme to complete beginners. 16:44:38 *jtza8* darn :) 16:45:09 for beginners IMHO SICP & Scheme, but it is personal 16:45:14 Euthydemus: depends on the beginner, and what he wants to do. 16:45:36 Fade: it strikes me as much more interesting than his crazy games tbh :) 16:45:43 Euthydemus: my advice would be to learn and use Common Lisp, but to still study sicp (therefore learn scheme) and still use gnu emacs, (therefore learn emacs lisp). 16:46:21 Well, my point is mostly that with Scheme you can get over the first hump without any distractions and then quickly move on to Lisp if you'd find Scheme too limiting. 16:46:22 Euthydemus: I don't understand what would make lisp so incomprihensible for beginners. 16:46:43 The hyperspec is. :) 16:46:46 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 16:46:46 Also I don't really follow what would make "scheme too limiting". 16:47:13 turing complete language is turing complete. 16:47:15 Well, or whatever reason you might have to want to move on to Lisp. 16:47:23 _Ray_: You might like this one http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 16:47:31 but I think Euthydemus is perhaps trolling us? :) 16:47:41 How do you figure that? 16:47:46 *schmrkc* will get back to eating 16:48:07 schmrkc: well, there are still wildely diverging implementation of scheme (I don't mean the r5rs core). So if you want to do anything practical, and not be bound to a single implementation (which is a very hurtful experience to do), you still need to use Common Lisp instead. 16:48:16 Instead of spending hour chatting here may be it is better to go and try to read something ? during the evening you will aready understand something, I suppose 16:48:38 -!- ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 16:48:59 pjb: True, this is a point. 16:49:06 True. r5rs is 50 pages, (less if you skip the formal definition, which is incomplete in any case), so anybody could learn scheme in less time than needed to ask on irc. 16:49:22 I thought everyone had embraced r6 now anyhoo 16:49:29 -!- Joreji [~thomas@90-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:49:30 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755d56.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:34 schmrkc: No. That's why they're working on r7rs. 16:49:51 It's never seen before: They started r7rs the day r6rs was finished. 16:49:59 scheme world seems very live and active. Good stuff. 16:50:01 _Ray_: I second the suggestion to get hold of PAIP, the style of both the text and the code is really beautiful. 16:50:10 So, wouldn't you agree it's the better language for quickly getting over the basics? 16:50:20 _Ray_: And it's probably a great intro CL course for a CS person. 16:50:50 <_Ray_> Alright :) At 1k pages, it'll take me a while to read. 16:51:37 Euthydemus: I'd say gentle introduction is just as easy to use to get over the basics in lisp as whatever intro book there is for scheme. 16:51:45 Euthydemus: and it depends if one wants the basics of scheme or lisp. 16:51:51 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-159-62.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 16:51:59 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-216-185.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:52:34 *schmrkc* will now stop this and eat the pasta. 16:52:41 _Ray_: good luck either way. 16:52:50 <_Ray_> Thanks :) 16:52:57 Well, I don't have a specific case in mind, but sometimes people come here asking while stating that they're completely clueless on the matter. 16:53:04 _Ray_: I'm sure with some intelligent googling you can find the original lisp source for haskell ;) 16:53:18 Euthydemus: then gentle is great! 16:53:18 Euthydemus: the principal challenge in learning lisp(y) language(s) is learning how to think about organising the program in a lispy way; the barrier is the same height in both CL and scheme. 16:53:19 <_Ray_> Mind = blown :o 16:54:01 everything else is just learning the convenience features that come with the implementation. 16:54:43 CL has more conveniences 16:55:08 _Ray_: Though if you can get over the initial humps of haskelling, then lisping should be a breeze (: 16:55:28 In this case it's probably not an issue, no. 16:55:37 _Ray_: define some classes, fill some slots, do magic stuff. voila (: 16:57:20 Fade: Btw, why did you suspect trolling? 16:57:56 because walking into the lisp irc channel and stating that scheme is a better place to start on the lambda adventure is provocative. 16:58:31 and it's a common troll that emerges on a regular basis. :) 16:59:03 (pseudo) r4rs scheme implementation written in Common Lisp: 2401 LoC ; (bbn-cl) Common Lisp implementation written in scheme: 88374 LoC. 16:59:33 fwiw, PAIP includes a minimal scheme implementation 16:59:50 Ah, pseudo also includes 4611 LoC of scheme., so (+ 2401 4611) --> 7012 ; still an order of magniture easier to implement scheme in lisp than lisp in scheme. 17:00:11 I think this channel is a little edgy. 17:00:16 Fade: a prolog to iirc. 17:00:22 yeah 17:00:30 Euthydemus: #lisp, 100% straight edge. 17:00:41 not true. i'm frequently drunk. :) 17:00:51 yeah and I'm eating meat right now :( 17:05:40 bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-206-249.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:07 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:13:25 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@75.101.62.95] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:15:29 I found, coming from the windows move, text editing without MS IDE itself a hurdle. I think many would come and say: "Okay, how do I add files to the project file and compile. .. " 17:15:46 It's hard to get around that you have to use Emacs or something like it. 17:17:47 is there C's fflush equivalent in CL 17:18:12 Have a look at force-output and finish-output. 17:18:24 thanks 17:18:39 -!- jtza8 [~AndChat@41.15.134.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:21:48 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:25:14 xan_ [~xan@94.Red-193-152-140.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:28 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 17:25:43 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 17:27:00 -!- Bootvis [bob@baltar.lan.endoria.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:29:20 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-216-185.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:31:36 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-218-70.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:02 Guthur [~Guthur@host86-139-109-254.range86-139.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:35:29 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A5F25.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:36:52 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-78-47.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:40:35 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-78-47.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 17:41:40 sykopomp: What is the data that (alut:load-memory-from-file-image data) expoects? I tried to feed it a lisp array of type (SIMPLE-ARRAY (SIGNED-BYTE 32) (44100)), in the same way as in #'getting-started from examples, but still get a "There was an error loading data" error. 17:42:17 I guess the formats can be found on Openal documentation. 17:42:29 Does it expect the data to be stereo by default? 17:43:25 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-216-185.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:43:56 jtza8 [~AndChat@41.15.134.106] has joined #lisp 17:44:13 -!- _Ray_ [~Fede@OL45-232.fibertel.com.ar] has left #lisp 17:51:21 jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-20-32-147.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:17 Are these constants defined in cl-openal? http://connect.creativelabs.com/openal/Documentation/OpenALÉ.1%20Specification.htm#_Toc199835897 17:53:27 I couldn't find them 17:53:53 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 17:54:03 -!- The_Fellow [~The_Fello@glida.mooo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:57:43 Working link http://bit.ly/jCoNfF 17:58:12 Stupid X-chat always breaks the links with escaped characters 17:58:23 joekarma [~joekarma@S01060026f3e2a647.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:27 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@S01060026f3e2a647.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:58:58 joekarma [~joekarma@S01060026f3e2a647.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:20 Quick question, maybe a little dumb: in defpackage forms, why the # before symbols, i.e. #:drakma? 18:05:33 joekarma: The hash mark in #:package-name causes lisp not to intern the symbols int the namespace of the package they are defined. 18:07:04 Or more precisely http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw51/CLHS/Body/02_dhe.htm 18:07:11 Great, thanks for clearing that up for me. I had tried both with and without the mark and was starting to think maybe it was a stylistic convention 18:07:17 And about ointerning: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_intern.htm 18:07:28 Will read, thanks a bunch 18:08:26 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-20-32-147.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jajcloz] 18:08:33 What that really affects, is still a bit of mystery to me also... :-) 18:15:36 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@216.227.116.248] has quit [Quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:16:35 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.123.236] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:18:18 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-78-47.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:25:53 ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-123-53.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:54 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-123-53.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:25:54 ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 18:25:54 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:26:22 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-74-67-199-254.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:27:13 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-108-81-171-51.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:16 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt is now known as ianmcorvidae 18:31:55 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 18:34:21 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755d56.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:34:39 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-108-81-171-51.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 18:34:48 russel-athletic [~engelzz@srbk-5d80787f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:01 hiho 18:35:55 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:36:04 i am kind of confused with the whole persistent storage libraries: i just want to save a class (not written by me) somewhere and read it, the standard-io-syntax gives me an not printable exception 18:36:13 what library should i use for my problem? 18:37:36 dakeyras [~dakeyras@50.46.100.36] has joined #lisp 18:37:52 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-123-53.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:53 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-123-53.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:37:53 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 18:38:14 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@S01060026f3e2a647.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 18:39:07 Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.197.44] has joined #lisp 18:39:11 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:40:02 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-123-53.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:03 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-123-53.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:40:03 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 18:40:57 -!- nicdev [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:41:08 -!- fiveop_ [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-126-199.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:41:33 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-126-199.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:39 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@216.227.116.248] has joined #lisp 18:42:15 -!- dakeyras [~dakeyras@50.46.100.36] has quit [Client Quit] 18:45:03 MoALTz [~no@92.9.68.98] has joined #lisp 18:48:32 plediii [~plediii@nat-168-7-236-184.rice.edu] has joined #lisp 18:48:46 -!- russel-athletic [~engelzz@srbk-5d80787f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:51:02 Guest56762 [~Adium@he190123.dsl.fsr.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:05 -!- xan_ [~xan@94.Red-193-152-140.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:52:14 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:53:30 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-78-47.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 18:53:47 dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:59 -!- Guest56762 [~Adium@he190123.dsl.fsr.net] has left #lisp 18:56:27 -!- bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-206-249.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:58:58 ryuurei [~ryuurei@blk-224-243-35.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 19:00:16 do people really remap () and []? 19:00:24 on their keyboard 19:00:32 *mrSpec* did 19:01:23 I'm trying to use cl-sql with sqlite3. but column created as (user-id :accessor user-id :initarg :user-id :type integer :db-kind :key) is type of INT, not INTEGER so autoincrement doesnt work. 19:01:27 Is it bug, or I have missed something? 19:02:08 Some. I've never felt the need to. 19:02:38 what, like swap them? That doesn't seem that advantageous 19:02:54 maybe if you need to type a lot of square brackets 19:03:07 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 19:05:17 StrmSrfr: brackets aren't shifted. 19:05:21 marw [~marw@78.155.49.106] has joined #lisp 19:05:48 but they're so far over 19:06:11 bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-206-249.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:32 urandom__ [~user@p548A3DC1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:09 you'll have to ask someone who's tried it. 19:07:39 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A3DC1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:08:08 urandom__ [~user@p548A3DC1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:45 a nice place to puth them might be under the six 19:09:05 -!- ryuurei [~ryuurei@blk-224-243-35.eastlink.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:09:05 Did I just write "puth"? 19:09:26 and then you're off in weird colemak land. 19:10:34 LISP Dvorak would be interesting 19:10:41 ( and ) would have their place on the home row 19:10:47 surely P would be easily accessible as well 19:10:50 also T 19:10:58 The French have () unshifted by default. 19:11:08 maybe put () where A and ; go on Qwerty 19:11:10 they have numbers shifted by default. 19:11:31 I don't think lisp code contains that many parentheses 19:12:45 something as short as "(list a b)" is only like 20% parentheses 19:12:58 and who names their variables like that 19:13:11 taiyal: devise some reasonable metric, try and optimise a new keyboard layout against it, and see how much better it fares than qwerty. I'm pretty sure this largely doesn't matter, or, if it does, less so than the physical properties of the keyboard. 19:13:18 ... I do 19:14:20 I tried, but I never could type [] instead of shift-9 shift-0... 19:14:33 In anycase, nowadays I use paredit, so... 19:14:47 you could always just flip the numbers and symbols for a programming layout. not ideal unless you have a numpad. 19:15:07 And StrmSrfr is correct, there are less parentheses in Lisp than in C or C++. 19:15:27 that doesn't sound right 19:15:52 tali713: No, AZERTY is just not programmer hostile. Any wanabe programmer learn QWERTY instead, just like I did. 19:16:15 StrmSrfr: and this is even not counting the fact that lisp programs are 30 times smaller than the equivalent C program. 19:17:16 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.197.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:17:22 don't kick me for this question, but: what are the reasons for learning lisp? what do you gain? as a hobbyist, i mean, with some python background. 19:18:31 Reaper507 [~Reaper507@mna75-11-88-161-196-58.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:05 is it because the C identifiers are so terse? 19:19:48 I can't think of many situations where lisp requires less paretheses 19:20:24 -!- bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-206-249.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:20:34 usually it's the same or more 19:21:00 of course C has all these other paired characters and you have to try to remember which one to use in a given situation 19:21:51 marw: if you're a hobbyist there are no rational reasons. A lot of people find the experience of learning to code in Lisp and then actually coding things in Lisp entertaining, and challenging (in the good way) 19:22:42 still shifted 9 and 0 arent that bad for for (), qwerty and colemak work both well 19:24:56 bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-206-249.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:39 as an hobbyist you usally work alone or in a small team so you want an language that allows you to get something done fast. lisp is such a lang 19:27:13 of course dvorak is the only keyboard layout worth using 19:27:59 and lisp seems to be huge. i mean, there are 300+ people here. 19:28:18 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-216-185.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:29:23 lisp might be tiny; I wouldn't really know 19:29:39 I'm pretty sure there are more ruby people 19:29:47 there might be more Haskell people 19:29:50 those guys are so smart 19:30:19 nah StrmSrfr, colemak is superior to dvorak in most points though the diff is so small that its a mather of taste mostly 19:31:02 -!- benny [~benny@i577A26BF.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:31:18 -!- zmv [~daniel@c95315ce.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:31:46 surely not 19:32:03 why? 19:32:10 in any case you have a snowball's chance in hell of having a dvorak layout on your computer, less so with colemak 19:32:53 urandom__: how is it superior? 19:33:05 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-164-37.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:33:17 benny [~benny@i577A7FB2.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:33:36 i had colemak on my linux distro preinstalled, StrmSrfr 19:34:05 wow, what distro is that? 19:35:04 StrmSrfr: Any distro. 19:35:23 Unless it's some exotic barebones no-X stuff. 19:36:34 schmrkc in is easier to learn for qwerty users and you can still be good in both layouts which is much harder in dvorak plus hand movement and stuff is supposed to be a bit better in colemak as dvorak should be worse to your pinky fingers 19:36:34 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:36:51 marw: http://www.paulgraham.com/progbot.html 19:37:08 yeah every newer linux or bsd has colemak 19:38:01 This Debian Wheezy doesn't have any files with "colemak" in the name. 19:38:38 StrmSrfr you just have to do setxkbmap us -variant colemak 19:40:09 thanks, Euthydemus 19:40:24 urandom__: But most qwerty users don't even know how to work qwerty well, so it should be no problem learning something else anyhoo... That is what I find the real impact of dvorak.. suddenly people have to learn how to type correctly. Hand movement of course depends on what you actually use the keyboard for. Sounds like bogus claims.. 'course I don't even believe that dvorak is suporior to qwerty. 19:40:24 oh weird it worked 19:40:46 StrmSrfr: Try grepping the keymaps  you'll find colemak defined as a variant, as urandom__ says. 19:42:36 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:42:54 schmrkc well same people failed learning dvorak but feel at home with colemak 19:43:40 s/same/some 19:44:26 urandom__: excellent 19:45:42 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-170-127.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 19:45:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-170-127.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 19:45:43 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 19:46:11 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.9.68.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:46:12 some that went from dvorak to colemak say in feels bether. well i don't think the diff is big but still colemaks offers a bit more plus points 19:46:34 pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has joined #lisp 19:47:47 other altenative layouts are not really feasible as research about them might be more costly than the potential gain 19:48:05 urandom__: as long as I can map all my nice characters on the home row all is well for me. like () " ' ` * # etc. 19:48:41 urandom__: research I dunno. I remember someone hacked up emacs to make statistics for what letters he typed the most and then just made a keymap from that 19:49:32 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:50:03 yeah thats also a good way but i wanted a layout that has some community around it ;) 19:50:11 http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html the two lisps add up to ruby 19:51:02 urandom__: heh 19:52:52 -!- elliottcable is now known as often 19:53:28 SeanTAllen [~SeanTAlle@cpe-98-14-83-126.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:54:27 wow, lua came out of nowhere 19:54:49 wow lua is under the top ten!! yeah! 19:55:06 out of nowhere? 19:55:13 nha [~prefect@183-32.104-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 19:55:41 and apparently almost nobody uses Haskell 19:56:17 smalltalk really deserves more 19:56:33 -!- SeanTAllen [~SeanTAlle@cpe-98-14-83-126.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:57:00 yeah, I heard about lua like ten years ago 19:57:11 and one friend of mine did something in it a few months ago 19:57:45 i thought so too, surprised more by how far down haskell was 19:57:46 unlike for instance Haskell and Scala which everybody talks about 19:57:52 colbseton [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-56-126.w83-113.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:57:57 -!- often is now known as elliottcable 19:58:02 and how high up the lisps 19:58:05 lua is really awesome, the first lang i really fall totally in love with 19:58:20 didn't look interesting to me 19:58:29 HG` [~HG@p5DC05036.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:57 the first I had that kinda reaction to I guess would be either the whole burroughs algol arch or smalltalk 19:59:09 one word: tables, they are awesome in lua 19:59:10 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-104.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:59:24 issat it? 20:00:01 I never got lua either 20:00:13 -!- bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-206-249.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:00:54 just seemed really unnecessary 20:02:36 lua is a nice simple and fast multiparadigmen lang with advanced metaprogramming possebilities 20:02:43 has anyone thought about fare's interface-passing style and how that plays / conflicts with ContextL? 20:02:50 MoALTz [~no@host-92-9-75-64.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:44 lua is in fact a lispy lang with algol syntax. was very inspired by scheme 20:05:59 bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-206-249.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:13 Rughalt_Work [~opera@095160126081.warszawa.vectranet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:08:18 zmv [~daniel@c95315ce.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 20:08:24 -!- Rughalt_Work [~opera@095160126081.warszawa.vectranet.pl] has left #lisp 20:09:53 Rughalt_Work [~opera@095160126081.warszawa.vectranet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:10:29 algol, really? 20:10:35 *JuanDaugherty* investigates 20:10:39 pnq [~nick@AC8136D5.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 20:10:42 -!- Rughalt_Work [~opera@095160126081.warszawa.vectranet.pl] has left #lisp 20:11:02 algol style 20:12:06 dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:22 for the macro lovers http://metalua.luaforge.net/quicktour.html 20:13:26 not to my eye, but see what you're saying. Anymore the canonical algol-like is C, not a real Algol 20:13:43 *algol-like lang 20:14:21 hi, what's a good simple xml parsing library to start with? 20:14:30 cools: cxml 20:14:34 i've looked at s-xml 20:14:50 mathrick: context looks like a simplification of IPS for the common case, when you know which interface you want for a given dynamic extent. 20:15:02 cools: I'm discouraging you from using a simple, small XML library 20:15:09 hehe 20:15:14 urandom__: So metalua is a different language, that is not compiled in the applications that link with lua for the scripting needs, right? 20:15:15 k, i'll check out cxml :) 20:15:20 cools: because it will inevitably generate xml that is wrong 20:16:27 man i have problems 20:16:36 99? 20:16:46 can't get sbcl to show list-all-pacakges in a sane way on qemu 20:17:10 thought the tarball was a mess, it's either qemu itself of my locales it seems 20:17:36 thanks dlowe 20:17:46 pkhuong: right, basically a conceptual convenience wrapper 20:18:58 urandom__: therefore it as useless as lua. 20:19:28 -!- splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: splittist] 20:19:40 pjb yeah metalua is not part of vanilla lua uh why is it useless? 20:20:08 Because you cannot use it on applications using lua. 20:20:38 People are crazy of using lua. It's just another javascript or java or C#. 20:20:54 "crazy of"? 20:21:18 also, JS is crap, it's just used because it's popular, and popular because it's used 20:21:20 s/crazy of/crazy for/ 20:21:29 a Paris Hilton of languages 20:22:09 http://wtfjs.com/ 20:22:28 I don't think I know any language so chock-full of exceptions aside from C++ 20:22:37 and perhaps PHP, but that's not a real language so it doesn't count 20:25:31 -!- fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:25:37 on the subject of crazy comparisons, python> "" > 0 == True 20:25:39 fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 20:25:51 -!- taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:26:31 Guthur: that's not necessarily crazy, you can declare all strings to be greater than all numbers, and it's perfectly sensible as long as you're consistent 20:26:32 JS isn't 20:26:41 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:27:35 taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:56 >>> "" > 1234567890 20:27:56 True 20:28:21 apparently it changes in 3.x 20:28:25 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@124-148-181-99.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 20:28:36 Guthur: in what way? 20:28:40 I've not tested that though 20:28:56 mathrick, Not sure I think it will throw a type error, at a guess 20:29:04 thanks for the replies! :) 20:29:06 -!- marw [~marw@78.155.49.106] has left #lisp 20:29:15 on #python they said it had changed 20:29:23 I haven't tried 3.x though 20:29:45 Guthur: that's also a sensible behaviour :) 20:30:09 that list it way distorted, no way was lisp #3 in '86 20:30:17 speaking of which, sometimes I wish CL were a bit more lenient in these situations 20:30:35 for instance, (subseq () 0 3) will throw an error 20:30:51 whereas 9 times out of 10, I'd expect it to yield () 20:31:59 it'd also be consistent with what CAR, CDR, FIRST, ... all do 20:33:53 lua should score much better when in comes to comparision as in differs between nil and false. well pjb what do you want to do, I don't see your lua problem, metalua is an dialect of lua that adds metaprogrammeng and is compatible to lua 20:34:37 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:34:54 Guthur: just installed py3 and indeed it signals TypeError 20:34:55 sykopomp [~user@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:33 -!- sykopomp [~user@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:35:33 sykopomp [~user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 20:36:44 urandom__: my lua problem is that I want to write my customization in Common Lisp, not in lua, and unfortunately application writers tend to use lua. So I have to add ecl before I can use those applications. 20:37:33 -!- pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:38:27 there is an arc implementation written in Lua :P 20:38:48 rvirding [~chatzilla@109.58.11.45.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 20:38:58 what apps are written in lua? ther arent many 20:39:17 urandom__: Adobe LightRoom. 20:39:19 urandom__: hahaha 20:39:23 urandom__: Funnily enough. 20:39:28 urandom__: tons of computer games 20:39:32 modern ones 20:39:46 pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has joined #lisp 20:39:52 ah adobe. nah don't know about this 20:40:07 (not the rendering engine, obviously. but scripting often happens in lua) 20:40:17 true 20:41:40 as scripting but the app itself is mostly c or c plus plus. you don't see many standalone apps 20:43:13 so pjb you want app writers to use CL instead of Lua? 20:44:14 doesn't sound feasible. lua is much better suited to add scripting than the bloated common lisp 20:44:24 drdo` [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 20:46:21 -!- drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:46:24 what apps are written in lua? ther arent many <-- Lua isn't really used for writing apps as much as it is used for scripting apps written in other languages (usually C or C++) 20:46:37 and that's both its strength and its failing 20:46:56 thats what i said 20:47:28 since it's mostly embedded in other things, it doesn't have a real stdlib, which means there's no real base dialect in which you could write standalone things, creating a cycle 20:47:59 base dialect? 20:50:07 you can create standalone thigs just fine. there is a very good game framework called love2d 20:50:46 urandom__: there's no standard standalone lua, the way there is standard standalone python. It's a problem JS also has 20:50:55 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-125-163.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn you have to set yourself on fire.] 20:51:32 huch what do you mean with standalone here? 20:52:18 mathrick, cool, good to know, thanks for checking 20:52:36 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:52:38 lua which is not meant for embedding, since embedded uses don't need things like IO, networking, utility modules a'la zip or whatever 20:52:54 because that's provided by the embedder 20:53:23 anyway, I need to get back to my work, I'm getting distracted again 20:53:39 -!- rosario [~user@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:53:59 are you saying that the core is not bloated enough or what. don't get you 20:55:01 yeah you will want to use libs or write your own libs for lua but whats the point? 20:55:24 -!- colbseton [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-56-126.w83-113.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:56:15 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 20:57:50 there are way to many good langs for someone to think they can introduce another without it being really worth it 20:58:56 and lua, ruby, scala, etc. fail in that respect imo 20:59:07 *too many 20:59:37 sacho [~sacho@79-100-61-93.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 21:01:49 lua is very good designed though, they really put a lot of thought in it. its not THE laguage but you get stuff done and its very good for prototyping and doesn't get into your way 21:02:19 if you say so 21:04:31 fortunately most of them are pretty unoriginal so they're easy to pick up if you have to 21:05:45 true 21:06:21 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-104.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:06:39 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-145-79.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:06:50 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-49-85.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 21:07:11 though i would like to see more langs that are really different 21:08:41 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:10:16 well you're in one, one of my preferred 4 the other 3 being haskell, prolog, and smalltalk 21:11:34 none of which is algol/c like, which the "new" ones almost always are 21:15:35 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 21:17:51 tcr1 [~tcr@80-218-247-218.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:24:18 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:26 http://meansofproduction.biz/eg/index.php/Quadriga 21:24:38 colbseton [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-56-126.w83-113.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:24:45 yeah you will want to use libs or write your own libs for lua but whats the point? <-- if you can't read a file portably, then it's a pretty critical hurdle to writing full apps in your language 21:25:15 -!- sacho [~sacho@79-100-61-93.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:26:59 and for building any sort of app/system library collection 21:27:16 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-164-37.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:31:48 -!- nha [~prefect@183-32.104-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:37:40 sacho [~sacho@79-100-61-93.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 21:41:04 -!- varjag [~eugene@186.170.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:46:07 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-126-199.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 21:49:50 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:49:54 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:50:41 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:50:52 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:32 steevy [~steevy@95-89-223-125-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 21:54:04 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 21:54:30 xan_ [~xan@94.Red-193-152-140.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:32 -!- steevy [~steevy@95-89-223-125-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:57:18 s0ber_ [~s0ber@111-240-172-131.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:03 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-175-46.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:59:18 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 21:59:58 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC05036.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:03:47 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@80-218-247-218.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:04:24 -!- littlebobby [~bob@unaffiliated/littlebobby] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:15:47 -!- bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-206-249.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:18:28 Bahman1 [~bahman@2.144.251.232] has joined #lisp 22:18:28 -!- Bahman [~bahman@2.146.20.6] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:22:59 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@host86-139-109-254.range86-139.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:23:36 bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-206-249.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:56 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:41 dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:11 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178-223-159-62.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:30:31 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 22:30:48 -!- plediii [~plediii@nat-168-7-236-184.rice.edu] has quit [Quit: plediii] 22:32:33 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:33:08 -!- bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-206-249.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:33:30 -!- Reaper507 [~Reaper507@mna75-11-88-161-196-58.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 5.0/20110615151330]] 22:34:46 bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-206-249.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:57 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.205] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:43:47 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-125-163.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:14 -!- colbseton [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-56-126.w83-113.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:46:15 -!- bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-206-249.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:47:48 bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-206-249.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:22 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:49:23 -!- Bahman1 [~bahman@2.144.251.232] has quit [Quit: Farewell] 22:49:41 -!- kvsari [~kvsari@203.171.93.21.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:51:35 kvsari [~kvsari@203.171.93.21.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:53:34 -!- npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has quit [Quit: bye] 22:57:56 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: eugu] 22:59:11 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl14-79-49.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 23:00:19 cesarbp [~cbp@189.247.164.87] has joined #lisp 23:00:21 anvandare [~anvandare@78-22-144-62.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 23:01:02 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-218-70.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:01:12 npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 23:03:28 -!- hydo [u1741@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mvgmspebndztaqcc] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 23:10:35 -!- zmv [~daniel@c95315ce.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:15:18 mcox [~user@140.253.50.113] has joined #lisp 23:15:57 Does a committer for external-program live here? 23:16:30 lester- [~lester@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 23:16:57 hello. is (require "foo") wrong syntax for including the foo.lisp file in the current directory? it works on clisp but someone tells me it might not on other compilers 23:17:05 sorry, I mean (require 'foo) 23:17:38 dakeyras [~dakeyras@50.46.100.36] has joined #lisp 23:17:38 (load "foo") 23:17:59 why load over require? 23:18:22 and do I need to use string over symbol? I'm using symbols all over my source code :| 23:18:26 in require/load 23:18:45 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:18:56 require is for implementation dependent modules. 23:19:01 require is an implementation-defined function to load a "module," whatever that is 23:19:02 ah 23:19:39 require works for both on clisp. I'm writing massively unportable code 23:19:46 how do you get the lispbot to tell lester- about the hyperspec's definition of provide and require. 23:20:15 clhs provide 23:20:16 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_provid.htm 23:20:20 clhs require 23:20:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_provid.htm 23:20:25 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:20:26 ahh cheers 23:23:29 jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-20-32-147.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:49 lol, I have to change this in 27 different files, in a total of 50 lines 23:24:08 You are doing something wrong then. Have a look at ASDF 23:24:48 what am I doing wrong, apart from using (require 'foo) instead of (load "foo") to load files in the same directory? 23:25:07 not sure how asdf would have helped me here 23:26:38 Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.197.44] has joined #lisp 23:27:25 Your mental model of programming lisp is wrong. I have 100s of lisp source files, and I doubt you would find a single instance of me invoking LOAD. 23:27:29 -!- kvsari [~kvsari@203.171.93.21.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:27:36 zmv [~daniel@c95315ce.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 23:28:03 ASDF provides an abstraction to hide all the compiling and loading from you by allowing you specify dependencies between files. 23:28:27 Your choice of the word "include" doesn't work with lisp either. 23:28:43 when I'm writing a program I'm splitting the code into several files. and then I'm loading the files where necessary 23:29:35 I'm using asdf if I'm writing a library that's reused between various projects. but don't see what's the advantage of using it for everything 23:30:15 -!- bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-206-249.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:31:51 cheier [~amedueces@c-76-107-19-58.hsd1.ms.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:00 cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.123.236] has joined #lisp 23:33:51 lester-: I use asdf for multi-file projects, just like I do make in C. 23:34:10 hmm I see 23:34:49 why not just load the file though? what do you gain? 23:34:58 I have multiple files. 23:35:01 lester-: I am having trouble finding a good document for you to read. 23:35:18 pkhuong so do I 23:35:22 :D, I'm pretty interested too 23:35:49 lester-: You are contradicting yourself. You are complaining about having to chage (require 'foo) 27 times, and now you are complaining about using ASDF which saves you having to change it 27 times. 23:35:50 bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-206-249.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:53 me too, I'm willing to learn. I'm just not seeing it right now though 23:36:15 lester-: whence the singular "the file", then? 23:36:38 lester-, Maros need to be be re-expanded and the functions that use then recompiled then the macro definition changes. ASDF allows you to state these dependencies.. 23:36:47 mcox the only reason I have to change it because of my lack of knowledge about what's portable CL and what isn't. if I had used (load "file") in the first place I wouldn't have to change anything 23:37:40 -!- jtza8 [~AndChat@41.15.134.106] has quit [Quit: Bye] 23:37:55 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-154-33.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:38:04 . Using asdf lets me edit files, and only recompile what has to be recompiled, centralises dependencies, and makes it easier to use libraries. 23:38:52 -!- drdo` [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:38:53 ASDF is much more useful for library users than library writers. It'd be possible to bundle a library in an asdf-compatible manner, even if it only uses LOAD internally. 23:39:45 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-194-79.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:40:30 -!- bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-206-249.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:41:03 lester-: What you say is true, but the issue has come about due to your method in which you program lisp. This is what I am concerned about, but I am having great difficulty finding something which would help you reason and improve your approach. 23:41:21 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:41:30 ok so lets say you have main.lisp, foo.lisp bar.lisp. foo.lisp and bar.lisp are only used in main.lisp. they are not shared or reused in other projects. you would still use asdf over (load "foo") and (load "bar") in main? 23:42:09 mcox would appreciate if you could find something, I'm willing to learn 23:42:44 would you still use asdf over load in above example? 23:42:52 lester-: I do everything from the REPL. All the functions I need are in the package MY-PROBLEM-USER. 23:42:57 it is not a matter of reusability but consistence if I understand, asdf offers a 'conveniant' way to handle dependency between files and package. Am I wrong ? 23:43:47 lester-: So for your example I would create a system which expresses that it requires foo.lisp and bar.lisp, then I would do (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op "my-system") 23:43:49 dependancies* 23:44:15 *_3b* uses asdf to load files of a project in order, rather than load 23:44:49 <_3b> a project with multiple files probably has dependencies on other libraries, so i usually want a .asd file for it anywat to specify those dependencies 23:44:56 <_3b> *anyway 23:45:14 Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.93.17] has joined #lisp 23:45:32 bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-206-249.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:35 <_3b> putting all the load-order information in one place makes it easier to modify also, for example if a file is renamed or split, just needto fix the .asd, no check every pther file for a LOAD 23:45:55 *_3b* apparently cannot type today 23:50:09 -!- sacho [~sacho@79-100-61-93.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:52:53 plediii [~plediii@nat-168-7-236-141.rice.edu] has joined #lisp 23:53:19 -!- jfleming [~jfleming@eth59-167-133-99.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:53:56 Does anyone know if Greg Pfeil hangs out here "sellout"? 23:54:09 sorry Greg Pfeil (sellout)? 23:55:12 jfleming [~jfleming@eth59-167-133-99.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:21 -!- jfleming [~jfleming@eth59-167-133-99.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:55:25 jfleming [~jfleming@eth59-167-133-99.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:27 -!- jfleming [~jfleming@eth59-167-133-99.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:55:32 jfleming [~jfleming@eth59-167-133-99.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:42 davazp [~user@42.Red-88-5-160.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:30 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:55 just to clarify, do you put all of your projects in your ~/asd (or whatever) directory, even projects that aren't libraries? and you have one .asd per project? 23:58:55 *_3b* puts a .asd with the project, and tells asdf where to find it in one of a few different ways 23:59:24 *_3b* still uses clbuild for my main dev machine, so lets it deal with putting symlinks to the .asd files in a common directory asdf knows about 23:59:32 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@109.58.11.45.bredband.tre.se] has left #lisp