00:01:20 -!- nicdev [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: nicdev] 00:01:35 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:02:37 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 00:08:30 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 00:14:45 -!- pyrony [~epic@office1.klout.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:19:18 _mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 00:20:53 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:24:02 pyrony [~epic@office1.klout.com] has joined #lisp 00:27:35 beeitch [~gschuette@pool-74-111-197-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:05 how write for x in {1..500};do echo "$x";done 00:28:14 in lisp? 00:29:10 jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:30:09 http://www.unixuser.org/~euske/doc/cl/loop.html 00:30:09 That seems like a useless thing to do, are you sure you can't come up with a better way? 00:30:09 But, (loop for x from 1 upto 500 do (print x))? 00:31:54 ha ha 00:31:56 nice! 00:31:58 wow 00:32:05 fuck the detractors lispcan do it 00:32:11 lisp!! 00:32:13 love it 00:32:36 so lisp can tackle all the stuff tcl can 00:32:38 and lua 00:32:45 and has more power n stuff right? 00:32:52 can it doweladmininingunix boxes? 00:32:59 oris it better to ge touta unix mindset 00:33:03 and into lispmindset 00:33:05 idounix 00:33:13 but now am sickof not being programmer 00:33:17 Are you okay? 00:33:18 wana programsolutions 00:33:25 imin mcdonalds fodocoma 00:33:28 food coma 00:33:41 ^^ 00:33:44 hate my co workers making me dosolarisldaptowindowsactrive directory 00:33:46 zz 00:34:14 kruhft [~burton@S0106002401f331bd.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:23 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 00:36:48 Huh. Apparently cliki.net returns a last-modified header that marks the last modification to any part of cliki, and not just that particular page. 00:37:00 -!- xan_ [~xan@94.Red-193-152-140.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:38:28 -!- pinterface1 is now known as pinterface 00:42:12 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-131-227.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:17 -!- Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483B57C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:42:39 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-58-30-57.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:44:44 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:46:07 -!- pyrony [~epic@office1.klout.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:49:00 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-158-146.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:52:11 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-156-206.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:54:38 -!- SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@70-36-146-70.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:55:11 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.1.251] has joined #lisp 00:55:42 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 263 seconds] 00:56:41 <_3b> hmm, unusually direct icfp contest this year :p 00:58:17 jingtao [~jingtaozf@117.79.232.163] has joined #lisp 00:58:43 rosario_ [~rosario@p57967C84.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:02 -!- Soulman [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 01:00:41 -!- steevy [~steevy@95-89-223-125-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: quit?] 01:02:09 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@173-29-195-221.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:02:33 -!- rosario [~rosario@p4FCDCEC4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:03:18 -!- rosario_ [~rosario@p57967C84.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:03:35 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@75-101-62-95.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:08:52 wgl [~wgl@209.242.26.41] has joined #lisp 01:14:08 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:15:14 Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.182.164] has joined #lisp 01:16:46 The_Jon_Smith annotated #122701 "only needs to be loaded once" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122701#2 01:19:01 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 01:19:06 -!- _mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:20:13 fukamachi [~user@ckp0.ariel-networks.com] has joined #lisp 01:20:21 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.182.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:22:34 -!- beeitch [~gschuette@pool-74-111-197-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:26:06 centipedefarmer [~centipede@97-125-189-198.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:30:39 Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.182.164] has joined #lisp 01:33:38 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@97-125-189-198.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:34:51 -!- dfox 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02:01:49 jdz [~jdz@host43-109-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 02:02:37 -!- lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:02:41 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.182.164] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:02:42 <_3b> how hard is it to limit CCL to 512MB? 02:02:43 lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:58 Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.182.164] has joined #lisp 02:03:29 -!- nicdev [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: nicdev] 02:03:48 -!- hoeppner [~chatzilla@c-76-23-118-31.hsd1.sc.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:04:11 nicdev [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 02:05:11 gko [~gko@42-72-252-139.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:34 -!- nicdev is now known as nicdev_ 02:06:41 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-131-227.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 02:08:35 nannto 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I assume clozure has images. 02:29:16 (and that CCL refers to clozure) 02:32:28 centipedefarmer [~centipede@97-125-189-198.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:36 i would assume so as it states it makes very efficient use of memory and a half gig is still a decent amount of RAM 02:32:50 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.105.253.191] has joined #lisp 02:33:33 JuanDaugherty: it's for the ICFPC. 02:33:39 There's a hard cap. 02:34:01 <_3b> looks like there is a command-line option similar to sbcl's to limit the amount reserved 02:34:16 *_3b* naturally forgot to actually remember what it is though :p 02:34:20 <_3b> -R maybe 02:34:44 <_3b> yeah, -R or --heap-reserve 02:36:12 yeah it looks like it defaults to 500 GB for some reason 02:38:02 http://ccl.clozure.com/manual/chapter16.1.html#Heap-space-allocation 02:45:45 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:49:05 felideon [~felideon@adsl-74-233-75-115.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:06 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.105.253.191] has 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[~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:38:56 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-131-112.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:57 -!- jdz [~jdz@host86-106-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:41:20 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-145-37.lns10.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:43:03 -!- kwertii [~kwertii@ResNet-32-176.resnet.ucsb.edu] has quit [Quit: bye] 05:45:36 sabalaba [~sabalaba@adsl-75-23-56-157.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:47:09 -!- Eataix [~eataix@CPE-121-223-198-253.lns3.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:47:54 pyrony [~epic@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:47:54 -!- Deathaholic [~Mococa@187.58.182.164] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:50:23 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 05:58:26 -!- jingtao`` [~jingtaozf@117.79.232.163] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:00:30 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:03:14 z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 06:06:11 -!- Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:06:40 Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:07:00 bsod1 [~sinan@31.141.11.67] has joined #lisp 06:07:44 So, given an ASDF system, how do I find all the input-files and output-files? Write my own dependency walker? 06:10:30 easyE: you can use asdf::traverse on the system and an operation (try asdf:load-op) 06:11:03 Quadresce` [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 06:11:10 So, one can only do such a thing with an internal ASDF symbol? 06:11:19 not sure if it's exported yet 06:11:23 it might be (it wasn't in asdf1) (: 06:11:46 that will give you a list of operations that will be performed on the components; use asdf:output-files on the operation/component and that will give you the output files for that op/component 06:12:06 it's all pretty tricky 06:12:19 Hmmm. 06:13:15 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 06:13:17 also, you'll need to make sure the system is "clean", that is, hasn't had any ops done to it before... 06:13:30 yeah, so traverse is probably not the best way to go about this 06:13:49 better to recursively walk the system's components (and modules) 06:14:07 I expected ASDF::DO-TRAVERSE to be like a MAP. Is that COLLECT argument a lambda that gets applied to everything visited? 06:14:22 whoa, I have no idea ): 06:14:37 do-traverse wasn't there when I looked at this the last time (: 06:15:08 Yeah, I just figure out that your ASDF-GROVEL-DEPDENDENCY should be marked as non-ASDF2. 06:15:26 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-205-150.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:16:14 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-205-150.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 06:16:33 hmm, Fare has a version that should (I think) be asdf2-compatible 06:16:53 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Disconnected by services] 06:16:58 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 06:17:04 -!- Quadrescence is now known as Guest82079 06:18:23 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:19:16 Don't such grovelling systems extract the input/output files? Or do I misunderstand their utility? 06:20:24 -!- Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:20:54 all adg does is to find the dependencies between components 06:21:27 there are (mostly) no files involved, or rather, they're restricted to single-input/output cl source file components 06:21:55 Ah, ok. I didn't look closely at them then. 06:22:29 *easyE* is going to add Maven dependencies to ABCL's ASDF implementations. 06:24:46 -!- Guest82079 [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: alice.] 06:27:42 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 06:28:21 -!- xinming_ [~hyy@115.221.33.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:30:11 tcr2 [~tcr@89.108.255.45] has joined #lisp 06:30:12 -!- tcr2 [~tcr@89.108.255.45] has quit [Client Quit] 06:30:52 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:31:00 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has joined #lisp 06:33:29 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:34:38 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@155-dom-3.acn.waw.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:34:44 -!- Quadresce` is now known as Quadrescence 06:35:10 good morning 06:35:51 Hi antifuchs! 06:37:03 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:45:09 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:55:57 -!- bsod1 [~sinan@31.141.11.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:59:51 xinming [~hyy@115.221.33.227] has joined #lisp 07:01:08 whee [~whee@misplaced.smaertness.net] has joined #lisp 07:03:04 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 07:07:53 nannto [~nanto@pee5b70.tokyff01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:10:09 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 07:13:36 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.33.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:14:24 aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:16:12 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:19:16 Scriptor [~user@cpe-68-173-81-41.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:19:32 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has joined #lisp 07:20:01 -!- catphive [~brenmill@nat/cisco/x-subnrjgvezlyflkd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:20:08 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-181-105.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 07:20:34 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-83-106.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:20:39 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 07:22:20 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:23:37 kennyd [~kennyd@93-139-33-11.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 07:23:57 catphive [~brenmill@nat/cisco/x-zxhhtvqnxziwqusp] has joined #lisp 07:29:49 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:30:58 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-19-192.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:33:54 hi 07:34:13 flip214: hi 07:34:18 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:34:28 Ho! 07:35:17 'ello 07:35:26 10 PRINT "HELLO "; 07:35:30 20 GOTO 10 07:35:34 RUN 07:36:19 + 07:37:31 e-user [~e-user@nat/nokia/x-xbjtimpolsbgnypf] has joined #lisp 07:38:57 07:39:27 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-19-192.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:39:52 Guthur [c743cb8e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.142] has joined #lisp 07:39:56 Posterdati: unless you implement a basic in lisp, you are forbidden to issue such statements. 07:40:06 Posterdati: *I* could do it! 07:40:25 http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/basic/ 07:41:40 pjb: these are all valid lisp code/data ... a syntactically correct list of symbols, numbers, strings - with one (quote ello) in it 07:41:41 what if you implement a lisp in basic? 07:44:07 Scriptor: the universe collapses 07:44:39 challenge accepted 07:45:21 and gets replaced by something still more obscure? I think I heard about that before 07:46:23 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-71-13.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:46:51 more confusing, at least 07:47:17 Scriptor: It's possible too. 07:49:33 pjb: definitely, and if you're just going for a toy lisp probably easier 07:49:38 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-105-4.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:49:38 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 07:50:31 Scriptor: sure. More and more I think we definitely need a CL implementation written in scheme. It's easier to implement a scheme... 07:50:42 pjb: It exists. 07:50:49 Really? Which one? 07:51:22 Butterfly. 07:51:53 There should be no problem with implementing a lisp in basic, although I'm not sure why you'd bother. 07:52:39 to be allowed to type basic in #lisp, of course :) 07:55:14 -!- beach [~user@116.118.8.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:55:36 If your customer or boss requires your program to run on Visual Basic... 07:55:46 beach [~user@116.118.8.216] has joined #lisp 07:56:07 Zhivago: Butterfly looks interesting indeed. 07:56:15 I know requirements can be pretty bogus sometimes, but that takes the biscuit 07:57:31 Just write a compiler. 07:57:53 there are c compilers written in pascal ... that could be used to "run" lisp via pascal. 07:58:11 But I don't know any halfway acceptable compiler in BASIC ... 07:58:11 -!- Buganini_ [~buganini@2001:288:c237:0:dead:beef:cafe:babe] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:58:17 Buganini [~buganini@2001:288:c237:0:dead:beef:cafe:babe] has joined #lisp 07:58:55 Write the compiler in lisp. 08:01:08 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-181-105.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:01:12 general-general [~marypatri@86-46-61-67-dynamic.b-ras3.mvw.galway.eircom.net] has joined #lisp 08:01:29 Googling "butterfly common lisp" comes up with several dictionary entries, rather than the "software preservation" etc. stored papers I get from looking for historical lisps most of the time. 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quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 08:48:48 netfrog [~user@199.203.120.178] has joined #lisp 08:49:39 -!- Gmind [~nevermind@113.190.169.187] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:49:47 Haven't used clbuild for a while and I see it has significant changes. 08:49:57 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:50:08 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@155.69.43.14] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:56:46 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:57:10 When I try to run it I get "The function ASDF::SOURCE-REGISTRY is undefined." 08:58:58 xxb [~user@210.13.109.83] has joined #lisp 09:00:42 katesmith [~katesmith@97-89-229-3.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 09:00:42 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@97-89-229-3.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 09:00:42 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 09:02:14 xinming [~hyy@115.221.33.227] has joined #lisp 09:03:05 -!- xxb [~user@210.13.109.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:06:11 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:06:15 schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 09:06:25 Molly_Az [~chatzilla@174-26-96-60.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 09:07:24 I'm using the latest SBCL 09:10:37 Even update-client fails with this same error 09:10:47 z0d: I suspect there is not going to be as many clbuild user these day 09:10:58 days* 09:11:18 quite a few have moved to quicklisp 09:11:21 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-181-105.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:12:36 <_3b> even clbuild moved to quicklisp :p 09:13:06 -!- dask_ [~quassel@92.101.160.155] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:13:15 *_3b* has been too lazy to upgrade to clbuild2 though, so not sure exactly what implications that has 09:13:50 molly_az pasted "reader macros" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122707 09:14:16 Greetings. 09:15:49 Landr [~user@78-23-213-133.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 09:16:02 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:20:05 Gmind [~nevermind@113.190.169.187] has joined #lisp 09:23:37 Molly_Az: take a look at http://letoverlambda.com/index.cl/guest/chap4.html, perhaps that helps 09:23:37 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:24:00 Thanks flip214. 09:24:13 read that first and see whether it helps 09:24:44 *Molly_Az* proceeds to visit that link. 09:25:39 -!- Gmind [~nevermind@113.190.169.187] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:26:00 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B267.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:27:11 -!- quasisane [~sanep@c-76-24-80-97.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:28:52 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 09:29:10 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:30:09 Hmm...a great deal of that page is above my *current* lisp-fu. 09:30:54 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:31:31 stis [~stis@host-90-235-77-23.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:34:02 -!- qlife [~qlife@alumni.cs.nctu.edu.tw] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:34:09 qlife [~qlife@alumni.cs.nctu.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 09:35:51 well ... summary of your question: you define [ to return a backquoted list. to do that, you need to read a list; to do that, you define "]" as delimiter like ")", and then use the standard function to read a delimited list - which sees the ], handled that like a ), so stops reading, returns the list, which you return with backq 09:38:43 "the standard function to read a delimited list..." is the open-bracket-macro-character function? 09:38:48 quasisane [~sanep@c-76-24-80-97.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:39:01 -!- gko [~gko@42-72-161-174.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:39:57 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:40:23 Gmind [~nevermind@113.190.186.121] has joined #lisp 09:40:53 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 09:41:05 well, I'd have used read-delimited-list ... 09:41:33 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:41:35 which is used in open-b-m-c anyway 09:43:06 Ahh, ok. I'm catching on. Is stream and char the atoms in the list and char the "["? 09:44:25 So if I typed [1 2 3], stream would contain the numbers (atoms)? char is the "["? 09:50:46 ccorn [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has joined #lisp 09:51:45 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.1.251] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:53:50 huangho [~vitor@201-40-187-104.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 09:57:12 stream is the logical "file" (or whatever you associate with I/O), which contains at this point the characters "1", Space, "2", Space, "3", "]", etc. 09:57:20 char is the "[", right 09:57:56 Excellent. Thanks flip214. 09:57:59 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 09:59:00 Molly_Az: http://www.google.com/search?q=reader+macros 09:59:01 Since I am obviously a beginning lisper, the assistance is definitely appreciated :) 09:59:12 -!- stis [~stis@host-90-235-77-23.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:59:24 this might help, too: http://www.psg.com/~dlamkins/sl/chapter03-12.html 09:59:42 Molly_Az: READ takes a stream of characters and returns a lisp object. Part of the READ algorithm is to look up in a table characters it meets and then call the function associated with that character. The first SET-MACRO-CHARACTER call puts the function OPEN-BRACKET... in the table for the '[' character. 10:01:16 *Molly_Az* grins. The dlamkins link is where the example came from. That's the text I'm reading now, but I'm going to start gigamonkey's pcl asap. 10:01:31 Molly_Az: obviously all this can happen recursively, so for a character stream containing '[1 2 3 [4 5]]' a bunch of calls to READ get made, and finally a single 'object' is returned, which contains other objects. 10:02:37 A compound object similar to python's nested lists? 10:03:09 -!- Gmind [~nevermind@113.190.186.121] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:03:37 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:04:01 Thanks splittist. 10:04:20 Molly_Az: yeah. Like a string is an object that contains zero or more character objects. (It's easy to be confused by lists in Lisp if you think too hard about them too soon.) 10:05:07 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-131-227.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:05:14 *Molly_Az* agrees completely. 10:06:07 Thanks again for help flip214 and splittist. I need to grab some sleep..3:05am here. 10:06:22 Molly_Az: you could even change ALL the characters in the read-table to dispatch to a function that read Python syntax and returned special lisp objects (that might even be objects in the OO sense) that were the semantic equivalent of Python objects... 10:07:11 Very cool. I'm definitely going to explore lisp in much greater depth. 10:07:24 -!- Molly_Az [~chatzilla@174-26-96-60.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 10:07:45 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-181-105.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 10:13:21 Levente [~Levente@178.48.169.59] has joined #lisp 10:15:12 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-131-112.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:17:32 fourier [~user@h-136-1-214.A176.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 10:17:45 vert2 [vert2@newshell1.bshellz.net] has joined #lisp 10:18:37 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:20:26 -!- vert2 [vert2@newshell1.bshellz.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:20:43 vert2 [vert2@newshell1.bshellz.net] has joined #lisp 10:24:05 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-19-192.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:24:19 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-19-192.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:24:24 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has joined #lisp 10:24:48 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 10:28:24 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-32-38.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:30:01 rosario [~rosario@p57967C84.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:31:47 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:33:05 https://github.com/amtal/lfe_utils/blob/master/include/pointless.lfe <--- interesting macro, though slightly non-lispy in places, for LFE. Much easier than curly package, though - anything similar for CL? 10:34:36 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-131-227.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 10:35:03 tfb [~tfb@92.40.95.178.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:35:36 -!- huangho [~vitor@201-40-187-104.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:37:06 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-131-227.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:37:21 -!- lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:37:54 hoeppner [~chatzilla@c-76-23-118-31.hsd1.sc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:39:06 -!- entrix [~entrix@95-25-240-91.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:39:15 -!- daniel__1 [~daniel@p5B326CBC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:39:30 daniel__1 [~daniel@p5082BCFA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:41:44 ltriant [~ltriant@124-168-205-10.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:43:07 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10:57:21 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 10:58:08 -!- Landr [~user@78-23-213-133.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:58:30 -!- churib_ is now known as churib 11:00:05 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-198-40.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:01:21 Eataix [~eataix@CPE-58-169-14-8.lns2.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:01:41 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-181-105.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:03:12 -!- Eataix [~eataix@CPE-58-169-14-8.lns2.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:04:00 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:06:45 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-183-69.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 11:07:49 SuChek [~SuChek@unaffiliated/suchek] has joined #lisp 11:09:39 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-198-40.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:14:29 p_l|backup: is LFE really ready for proper use? how close to CL is it? 11:14:45 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@adsl-75-23-56-157.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:14:58 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@gw249-1.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 11:15:15 bsod1 [~sinan@31.141.99.69] has joined #lisp 11:16:09 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 11:18:31 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-135-201-159.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 11:18:31 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-135-201-159.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Changing host] 11:18:31 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 11:19:01 hypno: not really close to CL, I think, but it seems to be getting closer to production usability 11:19:04 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.154.97] has joined #lisp 11:19:20 remember, it's a single-assignment language :) 11:22:35 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-152-27.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:24:24 p_l|backup: ah, ok. 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leaving] 13:10:12 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-37-16-233.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:15:41 -!- xan_ [~xan@94.Red-193-152-140.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:16:30 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-fsxeczinvnitbiiq] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 13:17:32 Joreji [~thomas@89-228.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:19:04 jweiss_ [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:21:21 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-205-150.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:22:11 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-205-150.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:22:16 c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-qymlzvqoevaibpcg] has joined #lisp 13:22:49 mrSpec [~Spec@c-66-31-28-194.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:22:49 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@c-66-31-28-194.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:22:49 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 13:24:50 p_l|backup: looks like (defun rcomp (&rest funcs) (apply #'alexandria:compose (nreverse funcs))) 13:25:11 besides the deep arguments thing. 13:26:27 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-37-16-233.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:26:44 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-37-16-233.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:23 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:31:57 -!- whee [~whee@misplaced.smaertness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:32:15 taiyallica [d8c385bd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.216.195.133.189] has joined #lisp 13:32:38 whee [~whee@misplaced.smaertness.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:00 -!- Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:34:18 Jasko3 [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 13:37:02 alama [~alama@tmp4.logic.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 13:37:12 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:38:31 -!- Levente [~Levente@178.48.169.59] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:38:38 whee_ [~whee@misplaced.smaertness.net] has joined #lisp 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[~whee@misplaced.smaertness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:02:39 whee [~whee@misplaced.smaertness.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:09 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@124-168-205-10.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 14:04:26 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-19-192.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:06:04 xan_ [~xan@237.57.21.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 14:06:06 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:06:10 serichsen [~user@hmbg-4d06d6c8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:13 Hello! 14:06:30 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-105-25.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:07:06 -!- jkantz [~jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:07:08 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 14:11:16 -!- whee [~whee@misplaced.smaertness.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:11:33 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:11:40 dlowe1 [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:12:53 Bahman [~bahman@2.144.245.129] has joined #lisp 14:13:58 Hi all! 14:13:59 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:14:37 olá 14:14:39 whee [~whee@misplaced.smaertness.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:02 Eataix [~eataix@CPE-58-169-14-8.lns2.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 14:19:20 is anybody here using CLSQL with postgresql-socket backend and Postgresql 8.4? 14:19:36 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-152-42.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:49 iwillig [~iwillig@2002:803b:2e10:0:224:d6ff:fe4a:a942] has joined #lisp 14:22:51 milanj [~milanj_@109-93-62-183.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 14:25:09 whee_ [~whee@misplaced.smaertness.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:17 -!- bsod1 [~sinan@31.141.99.69] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 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seconds] 14:55:28 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-205-150.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:14 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:01:13 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 15:02:13 pnq [~nick@ACA30982.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 15:02:29 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 15:04:04 -!- huangho [~vitor@201-40-187-104.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:04:31 discoveries of the day: 1) the :postgresql-socket backend of CLSQL does not work for me, and 2) CLSQL uses version 2.0 of the protocol, although version 3.0 has been there since postgresql 7.4 15:04:35 -!- iwillig [~iwillig@dyn-128-59-150-140.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:04:52 -!- alama [~alama@tmp4.logic.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:05:09 alama [~alama@tmp4.logic.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 15:06:07 postgresql 7.4 has been released on 2003-11-17 15:07:05 -!- tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:10:13 jdz I have a working socket3 backend for clsql 15:10:24 francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has joined #lisp 15:10:44 bobbysmith007: where? 15:10:52 jdz: it uses cl-postgres to accomplish this. I have spent the last two weeks trying desparately to get it in a state where I can push it upstream 15:10:53 how would one know the 'default' optimization levels of safety and debug etc ? 15:11:09 eg: clsql tests pass etc 15:11:15 francogrex: it's implementation-specific 15:11:56 bobbysmith007: do you happen to have the code on github? 15:12:04 I can push it up to a github branch so you can use it / play with it (its stable for things like query/execute, but less so for FDDL OODDL stuff) 15:12:06 gimme a sec 15:12:21 it also supports command objects etc ... 15:12:59 jdz: https://github.com/UnwashedMeme/clsql/tree/accel 15:13:34 using that branch you should be able to connect with postgresql-socket3 instead of postgresql-socket and use the newer api 15:14:16 -!- reb [~user@nat/google/x-zrcfgkxirfsypqlz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:14:21 bobbysmith007: cool, thanks 15:14:48 I am currently in the process of rebasing that branch on top of latest clsql (and also cleaning up a bunch of awefulness related to database identifier escaping)... not sure when it will land but its out there 15:16:16 jdz: well in sbcl? 15:16:17 hmm, looks like the latest changes have been in 2009 15:16:34 Looks like it's not maintained. Let's write a new one! 15:16:49 jdz: yeah, I have been using that branch for a long time, but it was never in a state where I could submit it up to clsql 15:17:15 cesarbp [~cesarbol9@189.247.132.208] has joined #lisp 15:17:47 bobbysmith007: it's been in use for over a year now, must be stable! ship it! 15:18:12 tauntaun [~Crumpet@64.134.66.251] has joined #lisp 15:19:25 iwillig [~iwillig@2002:803b:2e10:0:224:d6ff:fe4a:a942] has joined #lisp 15:19:34 francogrex: (sb-ext:describe-compiler-policy) 15:20:29 -!- cbp [~cesarbol9@189.139.96.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:20:36 jdz: k. thx 15:23:27 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:23:40 cbp [~cesarbol9@189.247.127.135] has joined #lisp 15:23:42 -!- cesarbp [~cesarbol9@189.247.132.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:28:07 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 15:28:41 -!- akimbo [~akimbo@cpe-024-163-093-204.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:29:55 -!- francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:30:48 -!- cbp [~cesarbol9@189.247.127.135] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:31:30 cbp [~cesarbol9@189.247.169.140] has joined #lisp 15:32:50 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA30982.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:33:02 jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.56] has joined #lisp 15:34:14 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:38:00 Soulman [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:42:49 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 15:43:52 -!- cbp [~cesarbol9@189.247.169.140] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:44:49 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-156-206.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:59 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@97-125-189-198.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:49:21 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:49:44 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 15:50:40 pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:05 -!- ziga [~ziga@stargate.fs.uni-lj.si] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:52:59 -!- redline6561 [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:55:16 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:55:18 -!- lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:56:24 HG` [~HG@p579F7BD2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:39 -!- pyrony [~epic@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:57:44 -!- Guthur [c743cb8e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.142] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:58:28 SuChek_ [~SuChek@unaffiliated/suchek] has joined #lisp 15:59:57 bsod1 [~sinan@31.141.119.72] has joined #lisp 16:00:03 redline6561 [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 16:00:07 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-205-150.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:00:45 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.41.214.110.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:00:56 -!- e-user [~e-user@nat/nokia/x-xbjtimpolsbgnypf] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:01:01 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-205-150.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:35 -!- SuChek [~SuChek@unaffiliated/suchek] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:01:40 val489 [irc2gowebc@net-93-144-218-203.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 16:01:45 hii'v 16:01:50 i've some problem to understand closure 16:01:52 who can help me? 16:02:39 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-49-85.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 16:02:44 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:02:58 val489: Ask your question 16:03:13 i'ven't figured it out, because i don't understand why 16:03:41 if i code: (setf a (let ((a 0)) (defun try () (incf a))) 16:03:52 when i (funcall a) the value of a is 1, 2, 3 etc. 16:04:10 but when i type (setf a (defun try () (let ((a 0)) (incf a))) 16:04:24 is i (funcall a) i've just 1 16:04:29 :-\ 16:04:30 <_3b> you should probably be using LAMBDA there rather than DEFUN 16:04:47 i'm making some trying with this.. 16:04:54 also don't use the same names for global and local variables, you will be confused else 16:04:58 i want understand why is so important if LET is in or out of the defun 16:05:19 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:05:26 <_3b> because LET creates a new bindings every time it is evaluated 16:05:27 because when it's inside you're establishing a new variable every time 16:05:34 <_3b> when it is outside, it is only evaluated once 16:05:41 ah. 16:05:42 <_3b> when it is inside, it is evaluated every call 16:05:47 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-37-16-233.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 16:05:48 that was really simply 16:05:50 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 16:06:07 whenn i do (funcall a) shouldnt evaluate also the outside let? 16:06:41 <_3b> with your definitions, the value of A is teh symbol TRY, which is the name of a function, so funcall A calls the function named by TRY 16:07:38 <_3b> if you had used LAMBDA instead of DEFUN, the value of A would be a function object, which FUNCALL would call directly 16:08:02 <_3b> in neither case is the LET oustide the definition of that function involved, since it was already evaluated when A was initialized 16:08:24 so 16:08:46 (setf c (let ((a 0)) #'(lambda () (incf a)))) 16:08:46 ? 16:08:57 koisoke [xef4@epilogue.org] has joined #lisp 16:09:12 <_3b> you don't need the #', and you shouldn't SETF a variable that doesn't exist, but yes 16:09:26 -!- bsod1 [~sinan@31.141.119.72] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:09:48 why not #'? All the book i've read use #' with lambda 16:10:06 val489: its useless, they are wrong 16:10:12 <_3b> you can use the #' with lambda, but you don't need to 16:10:22 ok 16:10:23 thank you 16:10:46 billitch= the fact that it's useless doesn't mean they are wrong 16:10:52 <_3b> (in most cases... there are some where with and without #' behave differently) 16:11:02 of course, but its a memory troll 16:11:12 <_3b> yeah, using it or not in most cases is a sylistic choice, some people prefer it 16:11:42 i believe its an old idiom from when lambdas were just passed as sexp 16:11:56 common lisp has a lambda macro for that 16:12:17 for returning a functional value i mean 16:12:28 A lambda macro which expands to #'(lambda ...) :D 16:12:28 <_3b> right, more common in older code (or with people who learned lisp when the older code wasn't old :) 16:12:46 i've used 16:12:51 a gentle introduction .. 16:13:07 <_3b> no, lambda macro expands to (function (lambda ...)), which might /print/ as #'(lambda ...) but isn't actually #' :) 16:13:10 now i'm reading peter seibel 16:13:28 <_3b> #'(lambda ...) reads to the same thing though 16:15:20 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:17:54 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-195.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:19:35 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-37-16-233.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:55 -!- val489 [irc2gowebc@net-93-144-218-203.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:20:47 _3b: do you use #' in your code? 16:21:03 <_3b> not for LAMBDA 16:22:11 i see. maybe i should get rid of that then. i'm using it always basically. it has never bothered me since it kind of gives a nice "marker" or sorts.. 16:22:12 _3b: why not drop the # elsewhere? 16:22:22 #'(lambda should be avoided because it is not possible to give meaning to #'(my-lambda 16:22:23 _3b: (mapcar 'foo '(a b c)) 16:22:24 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-195.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:23:41 <_3b> felideon ' and #' mean different things, so using the right one is important 16:24:01 kpreid: i think i picked it up from graham. that it was just a reader macro for (function (lambda ...)) but point noted. 16:24:17 -!- HG` [~HG@p579F7BD2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:24:32 <_3b> #' will catch FLET or LABELS functions, ' won't 16:24:36 hypno: right, I'm not complaining about the read syntax, but that FUNCTION is not extensible 16:25:09 so #'(lambda is needlessly marking that which is at the base level 16:25:21 _3b: but where ' suffices, is it bad-style to omit # ? 16:25:24 srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has joined #lisp 16:25:54 <_3b> felideon: still might be slightly different, in the case of function redefinition 16:26:09 felideon: i don't think both evaluate the same : #' will pass functional value, and the other an fbound symbol 16:26:22 *_3b* uses ' for function names pretty regularly though 16:26:28 maybe different performance-wise 16:26:35 in the case of redefinition, it doesn't matter if you're doing like (apply #'foo ...) since #'foo is reevaluated each time 16:26:37 <_3b> especially cl:functions 16:27:05 the thing to consider is if you close over a function from #' or put it in a variable; then redefining the function won't take effect 16:27:16 <_3b> well, it matters if you redefine foo inside the apply, in that case which definition 'foo sees would be undefined 16:27:30 <_3b> or unspecified rqather 16:27:37 _3b: if you do that, it's time to drop the rules of thumb and actually think about what you're doing 16:27:51 <_3b> kpreid: no, it is time to stop doing that :) 16:28:16 pyrony [~epic@108.126.95.152] has joined #lisp 16:28:34 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@216.227.116.248] has joined #lisp 16:28:51 kpreid: ah! so (setf foo #'func), and then (defun func () 'new-version), FOO will still be bound to the old function? 16:28:58 Yes, exactly. 16:30:04 interesting 16:30:41 funcallable value, useful to override/shadow functions 16:31:14 trace/untrace can be implemented this way 16:31:58 you save the original fvalue in symbol's plist and call it in your new definition 16:32:00 (but is not required to be) 16:32:08 a bit dirty, but it works 16:32:19 more a debug tool than anything serious 16:34:34 i've never been much of a fan for anonymous functions in real code. it's great "building material" for macros and supportive hacks, but in exported interfaces i find it very uggly. it smells javascript and/or scheme, both of who gives me the creeps w.r.t. maintainability. do you folks have the opposite view on this? 16:35:09 hypno: yes 16:35:09 :-) 16:35:49 <_3b> well, (lambda (..) ...) is a reasonable name for some functions :) 16:36:31 hypno: So what would you prefer over (mapcar (lambda (x) (+ x 1)) y)? 16:36:39 loke: so you actually like a bunch of nested lambdas, lambdas passed as arguments and so forth, as opposed to properly documented functions and a complete published api? 16:36:43 I wrote this code today: 16:36:44 Hi Elias, yeah, that would be great. Please introduce me to the 16:36:44 recruiter if possible. 16:36:44 Some info for the recruiter, you know all these things already: 16:36:44 I would be interested in any Android related position. I have worked 16:36:44 with Android since version 1.1, so 2 1/2 years. I understand that 16:36:45 Android is developed in California, and I would be willing to 16:36:47 relocate. I am a US citizen, so there are no visa issues, obviously. 16:36:49 I have a BS/CS from SUNY Stony Brook and an MS/CS from Polytechnic 16:36:51 University in NY. 16:36:53 My website is my app :) 16:36:55 hypno: Would (flet ((add-one (x) (+ x 1)) 16:36:55 https://market.android.com/details?id=com.zvasvari.anmoneyp 16:36:57 oops 16:36:59 sorry about that. Wrong paste 16:37:19 (if (every #'(lambda (v) (typep v 'string)) (list* class-name method-name argument-types)) 16:37:25 hypno: Would (flet ((add-one (x) (+ x 1))) (map add-one y)) make you happier? 16:37:27 That was that paste I intended to write 16:37:32 er #'add-one ;) 16:37:34 <_3b> Zhivago: 1+? :p (point stands with a number other than 1 though) 16:37:41 Zhivago: well, yes 16:37:47 there's a difference between anonymous fuctions that are only used as arguments to HoF and those that are stored in persistent data 16:37:48 My point was, I don't think the code would have been more readable if it wasn't a lambda 16:37:57 hypno: Why? 16:38:10 (higher order functions V. functionals) 16:38:33 sacho_ [~sacho@87-126-39-76.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 16:38:49 hypno: I'm presuming that you get paid by the line, or that typing arouses you or something. 16:38:58 hypno: But perhaps you have a better line of reasoning. 16:39:10 -!- sacho [~sacho@87-126-39-76.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:39:12 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 16:39:51 Zhivago: actually this can be really helpful to read a backtrace 16:40:01 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:40:13 Zhivago: for the most part i prefer real defun with descriptive names. i can live with lambdas as one-liners, but i very much dislike 'em when they span many lines. i rather have (mapcar this-function-does-something arguments), meaning i can skip the implementation of the actual function. 16:40:14 having named semi-anonymous functions 16:40:15 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has quit [Quit: Byes!] 16:40:21 -!- pdo [~pdo@217.33.254.141] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:41:01 hypno: you have an api/security difference though in that the lambda cannot be called by its name 16:41:12 hypno: I'd rather see the code in most cases than guess from a name that someone thought up, probably while drunk. 16:41:48 hypno: Do you find with-open-file similarly offensive? 16:41:58 Zhivago: nope. 16:42:25 hypno: But you'd find (%with-open-file path (lambda (stream) ...)) offensive? 16:42:30 -!- srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 16:42:45 Zhivago: i explicitly said i have no problems with it in macros and in supportive code. in short, where it is used to implement an interface. 16:43:01 hypno: So, you'd find the second form offensive or not? 16:43:21 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:43:27 -!- sacho_ is now known as sacho 16:44:30 well, (%with-open-file path (lambda (stream) ...)) doesn't look particulary nice, no. 16:45:08 hypno: So, it's offensive if you can see that it uses lambda, but not if you can't see it? 16:46:31 Otherwise your argument would be that you should have (%with-open-file path #'frobnicate-my-file) 16:47:30 Zzaichik [~tynielsen@24-104-129.146.hfc.mediarain.com] has joined #lisp 16:47:36 i would prefer the later in "user-exposed" code. in short, for code that uses a library or somesuch, yes. 16:47:41 Zzaichik: http://gigamonkeys.com/book 16:47:52 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Quit: yay for IRC as a thesis distraction] 16:47:58 Makes for horribly unreadable code. 16:48:10 sykopomp: nice! thank you 16:48:19 np 16:48:46 I keep reading and everyone that actually knows what they're doing say Lisp is incredibly helpful 16:49:49 Zhivago: huh? (mapcar sqrt y) is horrible unreadable, but (mapcar (lambda (x) (expt x 0.5)) y) is crystal clear? 16:50:09 hypno: Both are clear to me. 16:50:31 I'd rather have #'sqrt, though. 16:51:05 Zhivago: well, they are to me too, but which is /most/ readable? better yet, which is more readable as the line count on the lambda increases? 16:51:33 hypno: Are you familiar with Minimim Description Length? 16:51:42 Zhivago: nope. 16:51:47 Minimum, even. 16:52:19 hypno: same issue with dolist as mapcar, and there's no first-class function in sight with a large dolist body. 16:52:19 Every function that you add imposes a cost on the reader. 16:52:25 -!- Zzaichik [~tynielsen@24-104-129.146.hfc.mediarain.com] has left #lisp 16:52:34 Every piece of code that you write likewise imposes such a cost. 16:52:59 The question you need to think about is "does adding a function to do X, Y, Z cost more or less than doing X, Y, Z?" 16:53:25 In most cases the answer is "no", because the cost of non-linear reading is really high. 16:53:32 if I load a shared-object with CFFI, can I "pull" an existing struct definition from the .so or I have to create it with defcstruct? 16:54:13 z0d: the .so doesn't contain any structure definitions 16:54:18 those are in the .h files 16:54:27 And this applies particularly to code that is unique -- as in the bodies of with-open-file, and so on. 16:54:53 loke: so I have to recreate it on the Lisp side, right? 16:54:55 Zhivago: i see, so when you read (mapcar #'sqrt y) you actually jump to sqrt and start reading that code instead of just accepting the rather descriptive name? 16:55:04 SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@70-36-146-70.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:06 z0d: yeah. or find a way to parse the header file 16:55:12 Further, there is the problem that because of the high cost of non-linear reading, people tend to look at a function name and assume that it means what they'd like to to mean. 16:55:17 loke: better not parse it <-: 16:55:26 hypno: No, because I already know what #'sqrt means. 16:56:07 hypno: When you have (mapcar #'I-wrote-this-function-while-drunk y) then I need to either look it up, remember it from last time, or guess. 16:56:38 Unless that code is significantly non-trivial or is used a lot, then I'd much prefer to read the damned code in-line. 16:57:15 -!- Bootvis_ is now known as Bootvis 16:57:19 But then, I do read code very quickly, so ... 16:58:33 benny` [~benny@i577A2BFD.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:59:31 bsod1 [~sinan@31.141.119.72] has joined #lisp 16:59:37 -!- benny [~benny@i577A246F.versanet.de] has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:59:39 -!- benny` is now known as benny 17:00:09 oGMo_ [~rpav@66.219.59.103] has joined #lisp 17:00:11 i guess a one-time complex lambda is better inline and a function deserving a name, used in various places deserves its name 17:00:18 Zhivago: well, i dont think people should necessary jump to the code. they could also request documentation. i've never made a case for any code written by a drunkard; i'll simply reject code written under the influence as part of this discussion. :) 17:00:31 that's just information entropy actually 17:00:43 we seek to reduce code 17:00:44 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:01:26 leyyer_su [~user@182.151.88.136] has joined #lisp 17:02:29 as we've done in time with natural languages 17:02:39 Documentation is even worse. 17:03:12 short words convey little meaning and long ones tend to convey more and be scarcer 17:03:44 short words convey frequent meanings, and long ones tend to convey rarer meanings. 17:04:19 general-general [~marypatri@86-46-61-67-dynamic.b-ras3.mvw.galway.eircom.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:24 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-24-147-116-20.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:35 -!- slash_ [~unknown@pD955CBB8.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 17:04:44 And adding a new word has a significant cost, independent of its written length. 17:05:20 It's all about approaching the minimum description length while remaining flexible enough to handle the foreseeable future. 17:05:21 -!- pyrony [~epic@108.126.95.152] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:05:38 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@64.134.66.251] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:07:36 -!- sacho [~sacho@87-126-39-76.btc-net.bg] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:07:36 -!- dlowe1 [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:07:36 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:07:36 -!- lundis [~lundis@gprs-internet-ff13ee00-18.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:07:36 -!- fmu [UNKNOWN@unaffiliated/fmu] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:07:36 -!- micro [~micro@www.bway.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:07:36 -!- oGMo [~rpav@66.219.59.103] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:07:36 -!- sid3k [~user@li298-167.members.linode.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:07:36 -!- ryepup [~user@216.155.105.115] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:07:36 -!- amaron [~amaron@greenzone.copyleft.no] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:07:36 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:07:36 -!- yhvh [~jihad@68.225.103.138] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:07:36 -!- yahooooo [~yahooooo@ec2-184-72-7-126.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:07:36 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:07:36 -!- PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:07:43 pnq [~nick@ACA20A98.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 17:08:15 sacho [~sacho@87-126-39-76.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 17:08:15 dlowe1 [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:08:15 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 17:08:15 lundis [~lundis@gprs-internet-ff13ee00-18.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 17:08:15 fmu [UNKNOWN@unaffiliated/fmu] has joined #lisp 17:08:15 micro [~micro@www.bway.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:15 sid3k [~user@li298-167.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 17:08:15 ryepup [~user@216.155.105.115] has joined #lisp 17:08:15 yhvh [~jihad@68.225.103.138] has joined #lisp 17:08:15 amaron [~amaron@greenzone.copyleft.no] has joined #lisp 17:08:15 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:08:15 yahooooo [~yahooooo@ec2-184-72-7-126.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 17:08:15 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 17:08:15 PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 17:08:19 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:10:07 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 17:10:22 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-24-147-116-20.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:10:27 -!- leyyer_su [~user@182.151.88.136] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:10:28 and thats why street talk is the best genetic algorithm for a good huffman compression of NL 17:10:57 No, it isn't. 17:11:09 billitch: that was a great talk. Thanks for giving it on IRC 17:11:16 It has the added cost of increased incomprehensiblity to out-groups. 17:11:29 Landr [~user@78-21-53-230.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 17:11:43 -!- gor[e] [~svr@gw2.masterhost.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:12:10 -!- oGMo_ is now known as oGMo 17:13:58 -!- sacho [~sacho@87-126-39-76.btc-net.bg] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:13:58 -!- dlowe1 [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:13:58 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:13:58 -!- lundis [~lundis@gprs-internet-ff13ee00-18.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:13:58 -!- fmu [UNKNOWN@unaffiliated/fmu] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:13:58 -!- micro [~micro@www.bway.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:13:58 -!- sid3k [~user@li298-167.members.linode.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:13:58 -!- ryepup [~user@216.155.105.115] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:13:58 -!- amaron [~amaron@greenzone.copyleft.no] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:13:58 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:13:58 -!- yhvh [~jihad@68.225.103.138] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:13:58 -!- yahooooo [~yahooooo@ec2-184-72-7-126.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:13:58 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:13:58 -!- PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:14:06 "Well I be tellin you what, this bizotch is off the chain you know what I be sayin." 17:14:14 Zhivago: isnt defining a language always esoteric ? 17:14:34 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@2620:0:2820:b03:201:4aff:fef3:f0d4] has joined #lisp 17:14:39 meaning is something to dig out 17:14:59 if you trust formal display and fail at semantics, your language is no good 17:15:18 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:15:24 untrusting the form and seeking meaning is achieved by breaking all predefined structure often 17:15:32 but that NL, not programming 17:15:36 nor lisp, sorry 17:16:04 sacho [~sacho@87-126-39-76.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 17:16:04 dlowe1 [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:16:04 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 17:16:04 lundis [~lundis@gprs-internet-ff13ee00-18.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 17:16:04 fmu [UNKNOWN@unaffiliated/fmu] has joined #lisp 17:16:04 micro [~micro@www.bway.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:04 sid3k [~user@li298-167.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 17:16:04 ryepup [~user@216.155.105.115] has joined #lisp 17:16:04 yhvh [~jihad@68.225.103.138] has joined #lisp 17:16:04 amaron [~amaron@greenzone.copyleft.no] has joined #lisp 17:16:04 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:16:04 yahooooo [~yahooooo@ec2-184-72-7-126.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 17:16:04 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 17:16:04 PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 17:16:04 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:16:39 I thought you were talking about " the best genetic algorithm for a good huffman compression of NL". 17:17:49 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 17:18:09 -!- lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:18:13 i guess breaking structure often means you have to be good at compression 17:18:38 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:18:46 Sounds like gibberish to me. 17:19:17 sorry, thats not so hard to explain but its not the right place 17:19:26 Zhivago: http://norvig.com/luv-slides.ps, page 16 is a good example. another one on page 50, which is a typical example i dislike. he gives a better example on page 51, which is basically all about decomposition, getting rid of anonymous functions and declaring things properly. 17:19:42 carlocci [~nes@93.37.221.104] has joined #lisp 17:19:47 hypno: I think we've gotten to the core of your problem. 17:20:00 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:20:11 hypno: "declaring things properly". 17:20:32 hypno: I suggest that you revist that prejudice and think about what it means what what supports it. 17:20:38 s/what what/and what/ 17:21:23 Zhivago: also it was more intended as a pun, but you seemed to pick it up seriously 17:21:38 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@2620:0:2820:b03:201:4aff:fef3:f0d4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:21:52 -!- alama [~alama@tmp4.logic.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Quit: alama] 17:22:14 Zhivago: whatever dude. 17:22:41 hypno: Or you could avoid critical thought. 17:23:20 or you could go all ad hominem. 17:24:31 pyrony [~epic@office1.klout.com] has joined #lisp 17:24:32 loke: so, if I have a struct in Lisp side, which was returned by a foreign-call I have to recreate the struct definition to extract stuff from it? 17:25:12 <_3b> you don't have to recreate all of it if you don't want to, just the bits you actually use 17:26:16 I'm interfacing a TCP/IP stack, so I have to recreate quite a lot :-| 17:27:07 aren't there tools to do that? 17:27:15 Zhivago: i have no idea what you are upset about. i was asking for opposite views. You've not given one, except inferring that i find code "offensive" (i never did) and then continued on taking a stab at my argument on the basis that my code would somehow be written while under the influence. but fuck it, you're evidently not up to explaining "opposite views", which is what i asked for in the first place, so lets drop this alltogether. 17:27:27 oGMo: to create struct definitions? 17:27:28 <_3b> swig or verrazano xan make a good start towards that sort of thing 17:27:55 *_3b* usually hand edits the output of them, but you can also use them as is if they like the input enough 17:28:07 I'll check them, thanks 17:28:14 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-58.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:28:33 slash_ [~unknown@pD955D275.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:34 Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 17:28:48 hypno: Why do you believe that I am upset? 17:28:49 HG` [~HG@p579F7BD2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:01 hypno: Am I saying things like "whatever dude"? 17:29:04 swig i recall requiring you hand define what you want, but i was skimming the docs 17:29:07 lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:49 *_3b* remembered it more as wanting cleaned up .h files, don't remember in much detail though 17:29:56 Zhivago: sorry, not playing this game with you. if you want to explain your position on the matter, than i'm all ears. 17:29:59 hypno: Would you prefer "very uggly" instead? 17:30:09 *_3b* usually uses verrazano anyway 17:30:10 hypno: Why are you getting upset? 17:31:27 hypno: And I suggest re-reading the conversation if you couldn't find an opposing view. 17:32:32 Zhivago: Perhaps I've missunderstood you. Anyway, I'll re-read it, thanks. 17:32:47 _3b: i'll have to try that, i've been contemplating the amount of work a freetype2 interface would take 17:32:53 hypno: Look for "minimum description length". 17:33:20 -!- bsod1 [~sinan@31.141.119.72] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:34:10 Zhivago: ok. 17:34:11 -!- slash_ [~unknown@pD955D275.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 17:34:53 -!- pyrony [~epic@office1.klout.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:36:07 hai Zhivago! 17:36:20 _3b: how does it look like in practice? I clump the structs into a single file and run SWIG to generate the CFFI code for me? 17:37:00 cbp [~cesarbol9@189.247.121.82] has joined #lisp 17:37:41 *_3b* doesn't really remember for swig, for best results, find swig-based bindings of that lib for some other language and start there :) 17:37:58 <_3b> not that i remember details for verrazano either now that i think about it :p 17:38:41 <_3b> seems like i was just running that directly on .h files though 17:39:45 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:40:45 mrSpec [~Spec@c-66-31-28-194.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:45 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@c-66-31-28-194.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:40:45 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 17:41:55 verrazano looks like it uses gcc-xml 17:42:02 <_3b> yeah 17:42:03 not sure how current it is 17:43:51 -!- taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:44:30 bsod1 [~sinan@188.58.162.164] has joined #lisp 17:45:58 z0d: with SWIG you can just say which header file(s) you are interrested in and generate a cffi file. for ccl you can the ffigen utility which uses a patched gcc i think. also very reliable. 17:46:45 thanks 17:46:58 I managed to generate something sane with swig for CGGI 17:47:01 CFFI* 17:47:17 yupp, works great. :) 17:47:42 -!- Pepe__ is now known as Pepe_ 17:49:39 "fish or cut bait" isn't that a great platitude? 17:50:34 . 17:50:36 -!- bsod1 [~sinan@188.58.162.164] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:53:29 I notice they don't mention libffi 17:54:00 tcr1 [~tcr@155-dom-3.acn.waw.pl] has joined #lisp 17:54:53 replore_ [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:55:14 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:55:37 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@155-dom-3.acn.waw.pl] has quit [Client Quit] 17:56:10 -!- twbd [~willem@91.177.102.102] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:59:59 -!- replore_ [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:01:46 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-58.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:02:39 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-183-69.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 18:06:34 -!- dlowe1 [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:06:40 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:10:10 -!- workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:12:19 alama [~alama@d86-33-47-55.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 18:16:28 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 18:17:09 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 18:17:10 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-58.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:22:53 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.154.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:24:12 -!- gffa is now known as gffa|away 18:24:40 -!- xan_ [~xan@237.57.21.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:25:52 User482 [~User@41.9.108.216] has joined #lisp 18:26:12 -!- User482 [~User@41.9.108.216] has quit [Client Quit] 18:26:37 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.9.108.216] has joined #lisp 18:29:57 hi 18:32:03 Hello 18:33:15 Is this Common Lisp related? 18:33:45 workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 18:33:56 No, the "Common Lisp" in the topic is just to deceive people 18:33:57 this is more of a java/c++ thing i think 18:34:05 er, "this", i mean 18:34:37 lol. That doesnt make sense 18:34:49 If it's CL, then it is Cl 18:35:04 -!- Scriptor is now known as Scriptonomicon 18:35:09 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 18:35:20 -!- ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 18:35:32 -!- Scriptonomicon is now known as Scriptor 18:35:36 Indecipherable_ [~IceChat7@41.9.108.216] has joined #lisp 18:35:54 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.9.108.216] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:36:57 And there are 351 people here... Anyone alive? lol 18:37:22 yes, this is the CL channel 18:37:40 if you want scheme there's #scheme, #racket 18:37:41 ok, I have a question 18:38:02 (there's no general lisp channel SFAIK) 18:38:19 I barely have any idea on how to use ASDF 18:38:35 I have ASDF2 I think 18:38:57 try harder 18:39:14 it's documented and it's really pretty straight forward 18:39:26 are you trying to install some lib or are you trying to use asdf as a build system? 18:39:34 dlowe1 [~dlowe@nat/google/x-yeqwgtiorpwtiicu] has joined #lisp 18:39:53 I have a number of *modules* downloaded 18:40:04 And I am trying to load them 18:40:12 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@143.93.249.29] has joined #lisp 18:40:24 what lisp implementation? 18:40:46 Clisp running on Win Vista 18:41:14 that will cut down the number of people, you may have to wait a bit 18:41:14 I have heard of symlinking, but I dont think I understand... 18:41:20 -!- cbp [~cesarbol9@189.247.121.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:41:49 (file) symlinking doesn't apply to windows 18:42:02 Indecipherable_: which "modules"? quicklisp do not support them? quicklisp is usually the easiest way these days. 18:42:33 bindrinkin [~bindrinki@80.70.22.170] has joined #lisp 18:42:40 Hmm 18:42:45 -!- bindrinkin [~bindrinki@80.70.22.170] has left #lisp 18:42:51 ie. Langutils 18:43:45 And I can't find any documentation for Quicklisp either 18:44:33 Indecipherable_: http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/, eh? 18:44:46 So far I can't do more than download some random "packages" 18:45:34 I didn't say I googled it XD 18:47:12 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:24 -!- Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has left #lisp 18:47:24 But thanks 18:48:00 -!- vert2 [vert2@newshell1.bshellz.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:48:11 vert2 [vert2@newshell1.bshellz.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:23 I thought that QL just downloaded random packages from Cliki 18:48:42 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@static.6.236.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:48:47 rootzlevel [~hpd@static.6.236.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 18:49:06 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA20A98.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:49:11 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:49:24 -!- SuChek_ [~SuChek@unaffiliated/suchek] has left #lisp 18:49:31 <_3b> quicklisp loads things, downloading them if you don't have them already 18:50:16 jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-20-32-147.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:23 dlowe2 [~dlowe@nat/google/x-aldhqrezlegkanmf] has joined #lisp 18:50:32 <_3b> (the things it loads are "systems", since the terms "package" and "module" were already used in the CL spec to mean other things) 18:50:46 -!- wivlaro [~bill@craftsmanltd.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:50:50 wivlaro [~bill@craftsmanltd.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:51:05 -!- yroeht [yroeht@server5.tonbnc.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:51:12 Thanks, I was just lost... 18:51:28 -!- ocharles [u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pxzegzlpvqsxtjha] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:51:28 Do you people like CL? 18:52:35 yroeht [yroeht@server5.tonbnc.fr] has joined #lisp 18:52:41 -!- gffa|away is now known as gffa 18:52:45 no, people just hang out in here because they're forced to use it at work 18:52:55 lol 18:53:10 I think that it is quite interesting 18:53:23 Amadiro_ [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 18:53:32 But then, since I'm 14, I dont really work XD 18:54:02 It is still exquisite though 18:54:20 -!- dlowe1 [~dlowe@nat/google/x-yeqwgtiorpwtiicu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:54:26 Guest39977 [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-193-36.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:54:30 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-58.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:54:45 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:55:54 -!- Guest39977 [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-193-36.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:58:05 francogrex [~user@109.130.182.173] has joined #lisp 18:59:36 Is anyone there..? 18:59:40 ocharles [u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lofweuudghswojzb] has joined #lisp 18:59:58 Indecipherable_: Why can't you find any documentation? 19:00:36 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-193-36.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:00:58 It's okay now... 19:01:29 chubba [~dmitry@82-171-195-24.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 19:02:43 quicklisp just uses asdf, and as long as the systems you have installed without quicklisp are listed in asdf:*central-registry*, quicklisp will load them as easily as the system it installed itself. 19:02:48 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-193-36.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:02:59 So you can basically forget asdf until you have to write a system yourself. 19:03:51 oh 19:04:06 So if for example, I need to load langutils 19:04:35 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-58.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:04:44 (ql:quickload :langutils) 19:05:04 I just (push #p asdf:*central-registry*) ? 19:05:34 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.172.246.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:05:35 Yes, if you installed it yourself, you need to push the directory where the .asd file is. 19:06:06 Do I have to do it every time I need to load it? lol 19:06:32 Either way, it's not funny. 19:06:37 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:07:09 But no, you need to update asdf:*central-registry* only when you reboot your lisp implementation, not every time you need to load the system. 19:07:54 Yes that is what I meant, sorry 19:08:42 For persistence, you have two choices: either set your asdf:*central-registry* in your rc file (depends on the implementation, for clisp it's ~/.clisprc.lisp). 19:09:09 -!- workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:09:25 Or if you have different projects requiring different dependencies, you can write for each project a loader.lisp file containing the expressions needed to set the asdf:*central-registry* as you need. 19:10:54 Thanks once again 19:11:31 I was thinking of writing an AIML interpreter in CL... or attempting to do it anyway 19:11:35 lol 19:12:13 Indecipherable_: not a bad idea. 19:12:49 I sort of did that. 19:12:55 Indeed, since there aren't any 19:13:08 Already? lol 19:13:18 Instead of xml, I used an s-expr version 19:13:26 oh... 19:13:40 centipedefarmer [~centipede@97-125-189-198.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:46 Of course, XML is what makes AIML unusable for most of us. 19:13:47 then I discovered that the xml corpus was what made it entertaining 19:13:50 Didn't you make it available to the public? 19:14:07 :-) 19:14:15 workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 19:14:15 well, no :p 19:14:28 And I have an AIML bot running on pandorabots 19:14:32 I was just experimenting 19:14:44 You can google "Shadowstar the Ancient" 19:14:48 its a wonderful day 19:14:48 It's a lot harder to make those chat files than you'd think 19:14:49 xan_ [~xan@94.Red-193-152-140.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:00 lol 19:15:13 I made maaany categories already 19:15:36 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-20-32-147.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jajcloz] 19:15:36 And the tag is very good. lol 19:15:54 this is a very ugly code that *I* proudly wrote: http://francogrex.byethost2.com 19:16:38 Going to rewrite the AAA set during the holidays 19:16:59 regardless of what the code does or is, what do you suggest as checks to prevent errors or correct them when they happen? 19:17:03 francogrex, I think the server is down 19:18:02 What do you mean? In AIML? 19:18:31 -!- gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:18:32 Indecipherable_: it's ok here but the code in itself not very important. I can debug by 'stepping' but since it is a very painful and log loop I can't step all the way, need quicker more efficient checks 19:18:54 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-193-36.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:20:51 Not sure.... Do you use (read-line)? 19:21:19 -!- chubba [~dmitry@82-171-195-24.ip.telfort.nl] has left #lisp 19:21:21 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-193-36.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:23:45 What makes pandorabots so interesting is that I can use aiml inside html 19:26:01 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-193-36.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:26:09 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-193-36.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:26:24 Night-Hacks [~amir@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 19:27:17 hi 19:27:45 hi 19:28:01 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:28:42 where can i find information about SBCL garbage collector tips tuning and it's algorithms and ... . 19:29:05 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-193-36.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:29:12 um 19:29:50 bsod1 [~sinan@31.141.22.109] has joined #lisp 19:29:55 Night-Hacks: posts on sbcl-devel, mostly. 19:30:02 And the manual, to a lesser extent. 19:30:10 http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Garbage-Collection.html 19:30:32 so is there any Spec about it in CL ? 19:30:51 about what?Garbage collection? CL doesn't mandate garbge collection. 19:31:20 A computer that dies when all memory is used is conforming :) 19:31:54 -!- ecraven [~user@140.78.42.213] has quit [Quit: brb] 19:32:16 http://www.sbcl.org/ may have something 19:32:42 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-193-36.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:32:45 And if anyone needs help with aiml just let me know 19:33:03 Since there isnt a channel for it 19:35:37 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-193-36.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:41:41 -!- jweiss [~user@nat/redhat/x-ulnnvqlwrumtnmxr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:41:50 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-108-120.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:42:31 Hunden [~Hunden@e180101211.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:42:35 Hundenn [~Hunden@e180101211.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:44:09 I've tried out two unit test systems, and neither has something like (assert-equality #'test= obj1 obj2). 19:44:18 Am I missing something? 19:44:35 -!- Hundenn [~Hunden@e180101211.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:44:37 araujo [~araujo@190.73.44.29] has joined #lisp 19:44:39 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.44.29] has quit [Changing host] 19:44:39 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 19:45:34 I mean, I could write some additional code, that wouldn't be hard, but is there a reason that my "assert-equality" function/macro/method doesn't exist? 19:47:20 they all have the functionality you seem to want 19:47:33 isn't that longer to type than (assert (test= obj1 obj2)) ? 19:47:35 (assert-true (test= obj1 obj2)) 19:47:39 clop2: yes :D 19:48:06 Fine, but getting a message without any details isn't much help, by default. 19:49:02 lol 19:50:02 HG`` [~HG@p5DC0552F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:27 I mean, if a test fails, I'd like to know what the values were in the test. Then again, it doesn't seem to be a missing feature, just a little inconvenient. 19:53:47 -!- HG` [~HG@p579F7BD2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:53:56 Thanks for the comments though, makes sense. 19:54:03 there might be good reasons for a framework not to try to print values out by default 19:54:12 sometimes they could be very large, for instance 19:54:19 but i know nothing about anything 19:55:18 -!- sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:55:27 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@46.67.67.164.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 19:55:36 Neither do I, I guess... but this is an explicitly defined test, for known objects. 19:57:03 -!- Night-Hacks [~amir@95.38.52.69] has left #lisp 19:58:06 maybe the values can be anything 20:00:56 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 20:01:04 -!- dlowe2 [~dlowe@nat/google/x-aldhqrezlegkanmf] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:05:44 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.182.173] has 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#lisp 20:53:26 hi 20:53:39 -!- hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp_] 20:55:04 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:58 Kruppe` [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:56:23 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:56:27 hello 20:56:40 -!- Kruppe` [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:56:56 Kruppe` [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:57:20 -!- Kruppe` [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:57:28 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:57:43 Kruppe [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:58:48 -!- kencausey [~ken@67.15.6.88] has quit [Quit: 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21:24:54 fourier [~user@h-136-1-214.A176.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 21:25:36 jtza8_ [~jtza8@41.56.38.75] has joined #lisp 21:26:16 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-108-120.wbs.co.za] has quit [Disconnected by services] 21:26:31 -!- jtza8_ is now known as jtza8 21:30:45 -!- xan_ [~xan@94.Red-193-152-140.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:30:48 -!- lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:30:51 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:35 lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:05 steevy [~steevy@95-89-223-125-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 21:34:20 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Lightning!] 21:34:41 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-20-32-147.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jajcloz] 21:36:24 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.38.75] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:36:29 jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-20-32-147.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:15 -!- whee [~whee@misplaced.smaertness.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:38:32 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@12.177.253.250] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 21:39:08 whee [~whee@misplaced.smaertness.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:28 -!- fourier [~user@h-136-1-214.A176.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:40:49 jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.38.75] has joined #lisp 21:41:22 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.38.75] has quit [Client Quit] 21:43:51 Good morning everyone! 21:44:20 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-131-227.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:32 hello beach 21:44:38 golney [561bb599@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.27.181.153] has joined #lisp 21:44:51 Hey fe[nl]ix. What's up? 21:45:18 not much 21:45:20 Hi, is anyone here knowledgable about the IEEE 754 floating point standard? 21:45:39 golney: I know a little. pkhuong probably a lot more. 21:46:05 plorasg: I don't recognize your nick! Are you new here. 21:46:33 golney: There is a good wikipedia article on it as I recall. 21:47:50 Hi beach, and good night! :) 21:48:03 Hello serichsen. Bedtime already? 21:48:23 beach: yeah, it is 23:48 here. 21:48:42 Tomorrow, hacks and glory await. 21:48:53 beach: Great, thank you! I have a few questions: Does the floating point standard specify how an arbitrary precision integer (say, in GMP) must be converted to a floating point number? And does it say that the conversion from an arbitrary precision integer must follow the active floating point rounding mode? It seems to me to this would in a sense be outside of the purview of the IEEE standard as it is really about how other, non-FP 21:48:57 serichsen: OK, sleep well then. 21:49:01 Thanks! 21:49:17 -!- serichsen [~user@hmbg-4d06d6c8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Good night everyone!] 21:51:51 golney: Sorry, I didn't know IEEE 754 said anything about arbitrary-precision integers. 21:52:49 salva_xf [~kvirc@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 21:53:23 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:53:41 hello worlds, somebody is using mongrel2 web server with allegro cl? thanks 21:54:08 beach: Thank you -- I don't know that it does, either! Ultimately, I need to be sure that if I have an arbitrary precision integer Z, and I set the floating point rounding mode to, say, TO_NEGINF, then (float Z) will be guaranteed to be a floating point number that is either exactly representing Z or is less than Z (that is, that the conversion follows the active FP rounding mode.) 21:54:37 I'm unsure though where this guarantee would live -- Would it be part of the Common Lisp standard? Or part of the FP standard? 21:56:06 -!- HG`` [~HG@p5DC0552F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:57:49 golney: There is not much about it in the Common Lisp HyperSpec. For instance, for FLOAT it says the result must be "mathematically equal" to the argument. 21:58:12 beach: are you still in vietnam ? 21:58:29 golney: I think this is because the Common Lisp HyperSpec doesn't assume IEEE floats, so doesn't assume the existence of rounding modes. 21:58:39 fe[nl]ix: For two more weeks, yes. 21:58:48 :) 21:59:01 my problem with allegro lisp and mongrel2 is because acl-zmq for allegro cl 21:59:06 beach: Ah, I see, thank you. So, maybe this will need to be Lisp-implementation specific. 22:01:58 golney: If you can access the rounding mode, you can create whatever floating-point number you want, including the right one. 22:02:37 beach: Absolutely, rolling the conversion myself may be the best way. 22:02:38 acl-zmq is not compatible with m2cl, i am trying connect them but i cant get a response in the client, 22:02:48 -!- jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.56] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:03:15 salva_xf: This being freenode, there is not much activity with respect to commercial implementations. 22:04:36 beach natural, thanks 22:05:23 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-131-227.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 22:06:00 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755bee.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:06:04 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:06:29 tcr1 [~tcr@155-dom-3.acn.waw.pl] has joined #lisp 22:08:18 beach: Interesting, out of curiosity: The Standard ML Basis Library specifies for its required function Real.fromInt(i) conversion from integers to floats: "If i cannot be exactly represented as a real value, then the current rounding mode is used to determine the resulting value. " 22:08:32 -!- whee [~whee@misplaced.smaertness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:08:47 (Standard ML requires IEEE 754 floats) 22:09:38 whee [~whee@misplaced.smaertness.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:04 -!- elliottcable is now known as ec|detached 22:13:21 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:16:29 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-19-192.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:39 golney: many cls do use IEEE floats, for obvious reasons. 22:18:18 -!- lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:18:32 -!- hoeppner [~chatzilla@c-76-23-118-31.hsd1.sc.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027]] 22:18:53 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:20:21 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:22:54 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@216.227.116.248] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 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