00:00:01 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 00:11:39 -!- z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:15:02 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-120-202.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 00:21:09 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-78-236.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:22:15 -!- antoni`` is now known as antoni 00:22:20 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-155-173.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:30 -!- Evanescence [~chris@122.237.37.33] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 00:24:22 Evanescence [~chris@122.237.37.33] has joined #lisp 00:26:14 Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.209.228] has joined #lisp 00:29:24 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 00:29:31 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 00:29:31 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 00:30:44 centipedefarmer [~nothingHa@173-29-195-221.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 00:30:56 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.209.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:38:11 tsanhwa [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 00:44:17 -!- timack [~tim@hlfx62-2a-227.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:44:19 -!- neaer [~adskjf@118.39.114.41] has quit [] 00:45:25 -!- churib [~churib@95.156.194.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:46:21 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:51:03 HET2 [~diman@2.24.251.153] has joined #lisp 00:51:04 Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.209.228] has joined #lisp 00:54:12 churib [~churib@95.156.194.105] has joined #lisp 00:54:38 -!- centipedefarmer [~nothingHa@173-29-195-221.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:54:59 lanthan [~ze@p54B7FE31.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:59 -!- lanthan [~ze@p54B7FE31.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 00:57:41 lanthan [~ze@p54B7FE31.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:22 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-129-225.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:47 -!- Evanescence [~chris@122.237.37.33] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 01:00:42 -!- egn_ [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:01:45 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-155-173.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:03:53 -!- tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:03:59 beach: I think I'm gonna stick with slime, at least for now 01:04:11 Thanks for the tips :) 01:04:18 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:05:11 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:05:37 <|3b|> fchurca: are you running sbcl on windows, or using non-ascii characters? those might explain slime breaking 01:05:58 -!- HET2 [~diman@2.24.251.153] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:06:24 |3b|: no, i'm using linux, and i think my friend was running everything in utf8 01:06:46 -!- cbp [~cesarbol9@189.247.7.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:07:22 but, as far as i know, we weren't doing anything non-ascii 01:07:37 <|3b|> ok, on linux with slime configured for utf8, i wouldn't expect it to break in normal use :/ 01:08:04 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.162.227] has joined #lisp 01:08:35 antoni` [~user@20.pool85-53-11.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 01:09:00 i don't remember the details :s 01:09:19 if it happens again, i'll ping here 01:10:22 tomaw_ [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #lisp 01:10:49 statonjr [~statonjr@64.1.210.2.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:58 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 01:11:01 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 01:11:20 -!- antoni [~user@20.pool85-53-11.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:12:26 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Joreji_ [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 01:27:54 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 01:29:53 fchurca_ [~fchurca@190.51.104.189] has joined #lisp 01:30:00 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-243-159.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:51 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-129-225.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:32:45 -!- fchurca [~fchurca@190.51.70.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:33:49 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:34:03 Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.209.228] has joined #lisp 01:35:44 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:36:02 Joreji_ [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 01:37:06 frst [~Jerry@66.233.49.136] has joined #lisp 01:39:40 -!- tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:39:43 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-120-202.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:38 tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 01:42:13 Joreji__ [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 01:43:11 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:43:27 georgek`` [~user@184-77-70-234.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:13 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 01:44:55 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-242-226.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:02 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:45:05 jingtao [~jingtaozf@61.49.110.235] has joined #lisp 01:45:53 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 01:46:48 kruhft [~burton@S0106002401f331bd.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:12 -!- georgek` [~user@184-77-70-234.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 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[~jingtaozf@61.49.110.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:00:23 jingtao`` [~jingtaozf@61.149.0.224] has joined #lisp 02:00:43 -!- kruhft [~burton@S0106002401f331bd.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:00:50 Could someone give me an example of the correct syntax for the PROCLAMATIONS key in ASDF: http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/Predefined-operations-of-ASDF.html 02:01:04 correct example* 02:02:38 I guess just e.g., '(optimize (speed 3)) 02:03:02 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has quit [Quit: bye] 02:03:12 -!- loke [~elias@bb116-14-45-139.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:04:04 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483D892.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:04:21 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 02:05:04 hba [~hba@189.130.23.205] has joined #lisp 02:05:43 loke [~elias@bb119-74-157-202.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 02:05:48 Joreji_ 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#lisp 02:31:28 -!- georgek`` [~user@184-77-70-234.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:32:40 armence [~armence@unaffiliated/armence] has joined #lisp 02:38:14 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-240-65.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:39:33 centipedefarmer [~nothingHa@173-29-195-221.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 02:40:09 hey is there a way to read a string output as an integer, much the same way 'princ-to-string' treats any output as a string? 02:40:47 <|3b|> parse-integer ? 02:40:54 -!- zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:40:56 genieliu [~genieliu@59.78.62.120] has joined #lisp 02:41:44 -!- frst [~Jerry@66.233.49.136] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:41:50 zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 02:42:46 |3b|: bingo! thats the one.. 02:55:15 -!- strout [~strout@ip-64-255-129-222.ideaone.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:00:27 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:02:17 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:08:57 chp [~chp@2001:da8:a000:155:5eff:35ff:fe0c:c3ef] has joined #lisp 03:10:54 -!- MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:12:30 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.191.71] has joined #lisp 03:12:50 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 03:13:04 MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:19:01 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.167.210.109] has joined #lisp 03:22:47 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.209.228] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:24:41 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 03:25:20 Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.209.228] has joined #lisp 03:26:11 -!- MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:26:39 MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:31:36 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-98-113-194-183.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:32:18 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.209.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:36:08 -!- fchurca_ [~fchurca@190.51.104.189] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:37:22 ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has joined #lisp 03:39:13 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:42:45 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:44:15 Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.209.228] has joined #lisp 03:47:20 -!- splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:48:20 Xach: is there any function to make QL clean up the old releases it has cached in dists/quicklisp/software? 03:48:35 -!- dmiles_afk [dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:49:26 dmiles_afk [dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:50:07 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-213.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 03:51:22 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:31 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:58:35 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: !?] 04:06:11 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c711b3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 04:12:29 -!- jingtao`` [~jingtaozf@61.149.0.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:14:19 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-137-91.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:16:06 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-120-202.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:16:06 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 04:20:07 Going through rails tutorials. Anyone here use hunchentoot to make dynamic stuff - and actually make a distinct class for the controller and package the code for the "view", which may refer to "controller" variables, as a separate entity? 04:20:33 I'm just trying to get understanding of how much of the breakdown of this is deliberate vs an artifact of the language work. 04:21:59 -!- tsanhwa [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:23:35 <|3b|> MVC is a pretty common way of organizing things 04:24:05 *|3b|* tends to not think in those terms though 04:24:44 You could be fuzzy on the definition of where the controller stops/view begins 04:25:02 I don't mean *you* - hmm, I mean, you could arbitrarily define where the 2 break. 04:26:06 <|3b|> well, i think it starts getting more interesting once you start having more than 1 of a particular component (for example a 'table' view and a 'graph' showing the same data set) 04:26:09 I'd be interested in thoughts over whether, if implementing the controller->view portion, people would forcibly separate the controller and view with cl-who-type html generation given that there's less language impetus to do so. 04:27:11 I guess I see THAT that you could consider the final renderer the view, and have varying stages of data transformation above it. 04:27:33 Instead of having 2 distinct pieces, you have distinct and perhaps (per-page) varying levels of control for various portions. 04:28:11 The break in RoR between Controller (pure ruby) and .erb template (html-with-ruby) serves a purpose that does not need such a break in lisp 04:28:57 <|3b|> you might still want mostly-html templates if you will have non-programmers designing the UI 04:29:03 You may split the two concerns based on some metric; but you wouldn't have to do so in order to have code run under a different parser 04:29:07 |3b|: Good point. 04:32:34 -!- guther [guther@newshell1.bshellz.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:39:47 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@218.235.8.175] has joined #lisp 04:41:50 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-137-91.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 04:44:13 lanthan_ [~ze@p54B7CEDB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:52 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.191.71] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:47:47 -!- lanthan [~ze@p54B7FE31.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:58:17 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.191.71] has joined #lisp 04:59:18 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.191.71] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:59:51 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:59:58 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:06:12 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.167.210.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:06:52 Modius: regarding MVC, it's not so much fuzzy as it is recursive 05:07:09 your controller itself can have its own model/view/controller to implement it, etc 05:07:31 so that just makes all of the distinctions weird 05:08:25 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.167.210.109] has joined #lisp 05:09:33 Does SBCL impose a limit on the number of threads you can create? 05:10:12 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:11:47 *|3b|* doesn't think so, but it might not make any effort to let you create a lot of them within system limits 05:12:22 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.209.228] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:14:32 <|3b|> (well, it might impose the limit of not letting you create any threads if it isn't compiled with thread support) 05:14:46 It lets me create 587 threads. 05:15:12 It gives the error "Can't create a new thread" for the 588th thread. 05:15:36 <|3b|> how much ram is it using? 05:16:13 Barely any. 05:16:40 austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:23:54 -!- workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:24:01 bradski-cola [~brad@68-191-216-6.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:27:14 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:27:26 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: "Object-oriented design" is an oxymoron] 05:31:15 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA26EFB.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Quit: sleep] 05:32:18 <|3b|> Quetzalcoatl_: from looking at #lisp logs, each threads requires some fixed amount of address space, which might be what you are seeing 05:34:49 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@64.1.210.2.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Quit: statonjr] 05:37:04 -!- Quetzalcoatl_ [~Administr@cpe-75-186-5-185.cinci.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:47:12 tsanhwa [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 05:55:22 -!- centipedefarmer [~nothingHa@173-29-195-221.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:55:35 -!- zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has quit [Quit: sleep] 06:07:31 kiuma [~kiuma@93-36-5-5.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:08:07 hello lispers 06:08:53 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:13:20 hello 06:13:57 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:15:09 Gmind [~nevermind@113.190.191.71] has joined #lisp 06:29:52 "la bacteria aparecida en Alemania no tiene el mismo pegamento que tienen las demás STEC, y le falta un gen llamado “eae”." 06:31:12 does anybody have an idea why my sbcl continue to use swank found in /usr/share/common-lisp/sources instead of the one provided by quicklisp ? 06:31:30 <_6502_> what was the year of the initial contagion in twelve monkeys? 06:31:34 kiuma: debian sbcl? 06:31:42 gentoo 06:33:07 snearch [~snearch@f053007128.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 06:33:20 <_6502_> 1996... hmmm 06:33:22 makao007 [3d8ed192@gateway/web/freenode/ip.61.142.209.146] has joined #lisp 06:33:46 IIUC, you sometimes get c-l-c on gentoo as well. I don't know gentoo, so I can't help you; obviously, using a binary from sbcl.org would sidestep the issue. 06:34:35 oor writing my own ebuild :) 06:35:30 I believe there's an overlay that plays better with others 06:35:34 anyway quicklisp works, because I've tried quickload vecto that I haven't in my system and it works 06:37:09 I'm still using the overlay 06:38:03 MoALTz [~no@92.18.88.74] has joined #lisp 06:39:35 -!- benny [~benny@i577A24D7.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:49:18 pjb__ [~pjb@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 06:53:54 xxxyyy1 [~xyxu@222.68.162.227] has joined #lisp 06:55:28 -!- makao007 [3d8ed192@gateway/web/freenode/ip.61.142.209.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:56:08 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:56:13 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.162.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:56:14 galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 06:58:52 -!- schme is now known as schmx 06:58:59 -!- schmx is now known as schmrkc 06:59:53 -!- hba [~hba@189.130.23.205] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:59:55 -!- pjb__ [~pjb@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: from my iPad] 07:00:11 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.167.210.109] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:07:00 -!- jlf`` [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:07:06 jlf`` [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has joined #lisp 07:07:11 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-149-154.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 07:09:41 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 07:10:10 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 07:10:11 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 07:10:52 ASau` [~user@89-178-250-148.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 07:10:55 -!- ASau [~user@95-27-146-128.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:11:17 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-98-151.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:11:27 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:11:33 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-157-5.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:11:45 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-213.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:14:13 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-112-44.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:14:13 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 07:17:58 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.167.210.97] has joined #lisp 07:18:32 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 07:18:34 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:18:47 https://github.com/dto/ioforms/blob/master/example/example.lisp hey folks, i'm making these goofy tutorials 07:19:03 as part of the (finally) proper alpha release of my game engine 07:21:18 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053007128.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: 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peer] 07:44:41 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-62.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:46:42 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-62.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:48:01 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:53:52 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:53:59 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 07:54:01 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 07:55:19 -!- CrazyEddy [~quadrivia@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:55:40 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-217-24.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:55:56 -!- Gmind [~nevermind@113.190.191.71] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:56:14 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:56:25 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 07:58:58 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 07:59:12 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:02:18 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-217-24.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:03:59 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 08:05:56 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:10:40 -!- promus [~quickstac@cpe-67-243-40-160.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:14:52 homie` [~levent.gu@xdsl-84-44-211-232.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:17:14 -!- homie [~levent.gu@xdsl-78-35-164-95.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:27:50 <_6502_> clim or web? 08:30:43 pjb__ [~pjb@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 08:32:02 aerique [~euqirea@aerique.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:32:42 alama [~alama@d91-129-28-166.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 08:40:14 bsod1 [~osa1@31.141.51.70] has joined #lisp 08:41:13 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 08:45:33 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 08:46:18 -!- alama [~alama@d91-129-28-166.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Quit: alama] 08:47:34 jsoft_ [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 08:48:21 _6502_: Depends on the application. I think it would take a lot of effort to make Gsharp a Web application for instance. On the other hand, a simple information system could be done as a web application I would imagine. 08:48:34 -!- mobydick [~textual@124-171-177-47.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:49:23 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@218.235.8.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:53:54 benny [~benny@i577A31C5.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 09:07:02 Yuuhi [benni@p5483D038.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:07:52 -!- tomaw_ is now known as tomaw 09:08:57 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 09:10:21 HET2 [~diman@2.24.251.235] has joined #lisp 09:13:54 -!- homie` [~levent.gu@xdsl-84-44-211-232.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:14:26 Once a symbol is interned in the KEYWORD package, it can never become uninterned, right? 09:15:40 Reaper507 [~Reaper507@mna75-11-88-161-196-58.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:35 promus [~quickstac@cpe-67-243-40-160.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:19:35 homie [~levent.gu@xdsl-84-44-211-232.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:22:36 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 09:23:22 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.167.112.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:23:44 Hello, all. Please explain me difference between (defun add1 (val) (push val *data*) and (defun add2 (val lst) (push val lst)). If I call (defvar *data* nil) (add2 '(1 2 3) *data*) -- it doesn't add lists into *data* (multiple call return as result always ((1 2 3)) instead ((1 2 3) (1 2 3) (1 2 3) (1 2 3) ...) 09:24:58 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:25:05 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.167.213.98] has joined #lisp 09:25:36 Reaper507: Aren't you just pushing to the VAL local to the function ADD2 ? 09:27:28 Reaper507: indeed in the first case you are modifying a global variable, in the later cae you are modifying a local variable. Is it not obvious? 09:27:31 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:27:31 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 09:27:31 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:28:10 Ok, thank you, I'll read about global variables. Sorry for dummy question, I am newbie in CL 09:28:18 Reaper507: remeber arguments are passed by vaue in lisp, just line in C. 09:28:32 Reaper507: ie. you're not actually manipulating *DATA*. With ADD2 you have *DATA* being evaluated to NIL and you are basically doing (push nil (list 1 2 3)) and that list gets returned ... over and over :) 09:28:35 like in C. 09:29:35 Reaper507: with that being said you probably don't want to do the ADD1 thing either. 09:30:17 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757dd4.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:31:48 usocket doesn't seem to time out on UDP socket-receive on SBCL. 09:32:37 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 09:32:49 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.191.71] has joined #lisp 09:32:59 Reaper507: (defstruct items data) (defun add (new items) (push new (items-data items))) 09:35:00 (defparameter *data* (make-items)) (add 1 *data*) 09:35:17 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:39:30 <_6502_> I'm not sure, but probably it's not easy for someone to understand how setf or push works without being explained about macros 09:39:48 *_6502_* likes bottom->up approach 09:40:53 glidesurfer [~glidesurf@2002:4fcd:c95d:0:230:5ff:fe37:7a8d] has joined #lisp 09:46:24 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has left #lisp 09:46:45 I think you can explain setf and push quite well without going into macros. 09:48:38 -!- jsoft_ [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:48:59 -!- churib [~churib@95.156.194.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:49:04 churib [~churib@95.156.194.105] has joined #lisp 09:49:44 <_6502_> schmrkc: by using magic you mean? 09:50:25 *_6502_* thinks there should be no room for magic in a programmer's mind 09:51:49 _6502_: No by explaining places and conses, and telling just what push and setf does. 09:52:18 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:52:46 If _6502_ said this after my question -- for me it is not easy to understand dynamical and lexical variables after local - global in other languages. :) I read about push -- this macro pushes a value into the place, I guess here all clear. 09:53:43 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:54:25 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 09:54:46 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:55:25 _6502_: you cannot implement magic with magic. Only technology or turtles. 09:55:36 -!- HET2 [~diman@2.24.251.235] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:55:48 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:57:14 <_6502_> repaer507: so you understand what a place is? 09:58:15 <_6502_> reaper 09:59:03 _6502_: How does understanding macros help Reaper507 understand scopeing? 10:00:28 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.191.71] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:02:18 <_6502_> schmrkc: i think the problem is deeper (what really push is doing) 10:02:24 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:03:15 _6502_: I don't think so. 10:04:08 <_6502_> reaper507: do you understand that (push x L) is in your case exactly like (setf L (cons x L)) ? 10:04:09 _6502_: I guess a place is just a reference to the some area where stored some value 10:04:12 schmrkc: the problem would be the same with dynamic scoping : (defun add3 (val *data*) ...) 10:05:05 <_6502_> schmrkc: s/he thinks that push is adding an element to the front of a list, being the list an object. s/he doesn't understand that push is working on the VARIABLE instead 10:05:18 _6502_: no I don't understand this 10:05:38 There are no list in lisp. 10:05:50 <_6502_> reaper507: a place is not a reference, in lisp there are no references, just values 10:06:10 pjb__: Yes. I'm just puzzled why on earth one would have to understand macrology to see why this isn't working as was expected. 10:06:28 C is good on I/O because there are no I/O primitive in C. Lisp is good in lsits because there are no list in alisp. 10:06:43 I'll drink some coffee instead. 10:08:11 -!- aerique [~euqirea@aerique.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:08:28 <_6502_> reaper507: consider this --> http://paste.lisp.org/+2MIQ 10:08:44 <_6502_> what do you think the output will be? 10:09:42 alama [~alama@d91-129-28-166.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 10:11:17 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 10:11:33 I guess (1 2 3) because..... B is a copy of A? 10:11:42 anybody here using darcs on cl-net? 10:11:54 especially in relation to darcsweb 10:12:59 Reaper507: it's not a copy. 10:13:00 Gmind [~nevermind@113.190.191.71] has joined #lisp 10:13:10 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:13:15 <_6502_> it's 1 2 3, but not because b is a copy of a, before push b and a are the same list; but push changes the variable, not the object 10:13:49 axiomsofchoice [~axiomsofc@82.132.211.172] has joined #lisp 10:13:58 I'm trying to write a split function like Python's split(), but getting infinite loop. Can anyone help me about my code: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/401000/ 10:14:30 <_6502_> reaper507: that push is exactly like (setf a (cons 42 a)) 10:15:23 -!- Gmind [~nevermind@113.190.191.71] has quit [Client Quit] 10:16:32 <_6502_> reaper507: do you understand why if you pass a list to a function and the function does a push nothing is being changed for the outside world ? push is only changing the variable inside the function... 10:17:10 <_6502_> reaper507: of course pushing in a global variable chages the global variable instead 10:17:40 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 10:17:53 <_6502_> reaper507: because (push x *foo*) is exactly like (setf *foo* (cons x *foo*)) 10:18:01 -!- pjb__ [~pjb@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: from my iPad] 10:18:05 _6502_: I'm pretty sure he understood this quite a while ago. 10:18:53 (like an hour ago when pjb pointed out that it was just like C) 10:20:11 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.167.213.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:20:50 I'm trying to write a split function like Python's split(), but getting infinite loop. Can anyone help me about my code: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/401000/ 10:21:12 jsoft_ [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 10:21:14 <_6502_> schmrkc: if someone knows C then there's no problem in explaining exactly what places are (i.e. illusions) 10:22:21 bsod1: what does python's split() do? 10:22:30 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.167.213.98] has joined #lisp 10:22:59 <_6502_> bsod1: in the recursive call you should call (split (subseq str (1+ space-index))) 10:23:05 schmrkc, it splits a string for whitespaces(or the characters you send with arguments) and returns a list 10:23:30 <_6502_> bsod1: otherwise when the space becomes the first char you will keep calling yourself with the same string 10:23:55 <_6502_> lunch time for me 10:24:06 _6502_, great, thanks 10:24:10 Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 10:24:56 _6502_, any advices about my code? or do you know how can I do this iterative, not recursive= 10:25:41 LOOP ? 10:26:38 schmrkc, which on is better in lisp? loop or my recursive way?(or any other way?) 10:27:15 daniel__ [~daniel@p5B3263DB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:27:26 bsod1: I like LOOP personally. I don't think one is really better than the other. 10:29:39 -!- daniel__1 [~daniel@p5082BABC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:29:48 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:31:33 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 10:32:22 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:34:08 enupten [~neptune@117.192.77.233] has joined #lisp 10:37:55 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 10:38:36 how can get T if a string equals "". (not (string= "" "")) returns nil 10:40:03 (string= "" "") ? 10:40:23 There is STRING/= btw. 10:40:32 (zerop (length string)) 10:40:35 there are many ways 10:41:52 naryl, sorry I asked wrong, I mean how can I get T if a string not equals "" :) 10:42:48 (string/= "" 10:42:59 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:43:21 -!- axiomsofchoice [~axiomsofc@82.132.211.172] has left #lisp 10:46:11 naryl, still can't solve my problem, can you look at this code(and comments) http://paste.pocoo.org/show/401023/ 10:48:06 bsod1: Are you writing that to learn, or to get stuff done? 10:48:25 Xach, learn, I'm new at lisp 10:50:39 bsod1: A recursive solution like that is wasteful. 10:51:08 Xach, great, I was wondering better solutions 10:51:20 and can you help my why this code returns ("" "" "") instead of () ? 10:52:39 bsod1: I'm not sure what kind of behavior you're after. What should "xiiixiixix" split into? 10:53:56 ("x" "x" "x" "x") 10:54:02 Xach: It works as split-sequence with :remove-empty-subseqs nil. bsod1 probably wants the behaviour with t. 10:54:58 naryl, I don't have a split-sequence function with default SBCL install 10:55:53 Xach, I'm doing it for learning purposes, can you give me advices for better way to do this? Without using recursion? 10:56:16 bsod1: You don't want to use string/= then, but that character-index is greater than 0. 10:56:38 bsod1: to get split-sequence, use (ql:quickload "split-sequence") 10:58:42 rainyrhy [~rainyrhy@bb119-74-113-107.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 10:59:08 basho- [~basho-@dslb-188-108-014-138.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:00:41 bsod1: why do you want T? 11:00:54 string/= returns a mismatch index. 11:01:16 So to get T you should write: (not (not (string/= a ""))) or (not (string= a "")). 11:02:07 -!- enupten [~neptune@117.192.77.233] has quit [Quit: quitting...] 11:06:33 should I coerce a string to a list to iterate it with LOOP ? 11:06:48 bsod1: No. 11:07:10 Xach, so how can I iterate a string with LOOP ? 11:07:25 kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.237.227] has joined #lisp 11:07:29 for char across string 11:07:49 bsod1: Pretty easily. 11:08:58 agumonkey [~noob@141.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 11:09:09 -!- agumonkey [~noob@141.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:10:12 agumonkey [~noob@141.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 11:10:14 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@124-148-182-97.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: .] 11:13:51 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@218.235.8.175] has joined #lisp 11:14:24 -!- seangrove [~user@c-69-181-41-116.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:15:01 Xach, so second one is better, right? http://paste.pocoo.org/show/401034/ 11:17:39 doesn't cl-ppcre:split do this? 11:18:59 alama, I'm writing this for learning purposes.. 11:19:04 alama: (ql:quickload :split-sequence) (use-package :split-sequence) (split-sequence #\space string) 11:19:06 bsod1: ah, ok 11:19:20 pjb: slick! 11:21:00 Perhaps stupid question. If I have some dynamic variables defined as defparameter, how to write a function which change one of these dynamic variables, passed as a parameter in run-time? 11:21:21 Variables cannot be passed as parameter in lisp. Only values. 11:21:44 However, for special variables, you're lucky, you could pass the symbol naming the special variable, and use (setf symbol-value). 11:21:49 However, this is not good style. 11:21:56 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:22:03 It is only for learn 11:22:36 (defvar *example* nil) (defun set-it (special-variable-name) (setf (symbol-value special-variable-name) 42)) (set-it (quote *example*)) *example* --> 42 11:22:59 (setf (symbol-value special-variable-name) 42) can also be written: (set special-variable-name 42). 11:23:07 (old fashion). 11:23:50 The question is how to not using the symbol naming the special variable 11:24:15 Reaper507: There's a way, which works with any places, which is to implement locatives. 11:24:18 With closures. 11:25:15 Reaper507: What you probably want is to pass some object that can be changed to that there function.. look into defclass or pjb's earlier defstruct example. 11:25:40 Reaper507: see for example http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_frm/thread/89a4f5a778ef040e/63b8eb7ee001c7b8?hl=en&q=defmacro+defref+group:comp.lang.lisp+author:pascal+author:bourguignon#63b8eb7ee001c7b8 11:25:42 not that I'm sure you'd actually want to do thatt, but anyway. 11:26:22 or http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/2183b41e2a37c258?hl=en 11:26:36 Indeed, there's no point in writing C code in Lisp... 11:27:21 michael_lf [~michael@117.32.153.145] has joined #lisp 11:28:24 i read a thread post of kenny criticizing cl-opengl being an example of a bad library wrapper because it changes the naming in the library :) 11:29:03 ok. ViewCGI has been set up again on cl-net. 11:29:17 kenanb: in wrappers, you want two levels. One that matches closely the C library, and one that is lispified. In the lispified layer, you may change the names, or even the structure of the library a lot. 11:29:59 In C libraries, you usually have 1/3 or 1/2 of dumb functions and macros that are entirely useless in lisp. 11:30:38 When you add conditions for errors, you can remove another 1/4 of the API. 11:30:38 pjb: i agree, and when/if cl-opengl gets a good documentation, i think nearly noone would choose to use the layer that is closer to C 11:30:56 Add multiple values results, and another 1/4 of it disappears. 11:31:04 i think that counts for every wrapper library in every language 11:31:11 In the end of the day, you inherit more bugs than you save time using C libraries. 11:31:18 FFI is idiotic, in general. 11:31:39 Soulman [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 11:31:43 what do you mean by your latest statement :) 11:32:45 The above. Plus, the biggest problem of FFI: If you make the slightest mistake in arguments or order of calls, you get a segfault, and crash your image. 11:33:07 So you cannot do any exploratory programming with C libraries in general. 11:33:11 Better to rewrite it in lisp. 11:33:45 antoni [~user@35.pool85-53-7.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 11:33:47 pjb: but this doesn't apply for graphics libraries that are in universal use i guess 11:33:57 It applies for all of them. 11:34:00 hmm 11:34:09 there was a pure cl opengl clone 11:34:14 fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-172-163.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 11:34:19 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-127-195.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:34:36 it couldn't survive :) 11:35:17 http://www.cliki.net/GLOS 11:35:20 this one i guess 11:35:44 Ah, one thing too. There are alot of API that are made to build complex objects, so they actually have rather simple functions. For example, constructing a path. Using a C library for things like that is bad, because you get the overhead of converting lisp values into C values, and passing them thru the FFI (which is much more costly than a simple C function call!). So you can get better performance in writing it all in lisp rather 11:35:44 than going thru the FFI... 11:36:03 kenanb: we just need more lisp programmers. 11:39:36 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.118.224] has joined #lisp 11:40:39 pjb: afaik if it is not too complex/heavy to write from scratch, lisp programmers usually do write it from scratch instead of using ffi 11:40:57 or at least for most of the simpler libraries there is a from scratch version 11:41:09 more lisp coders would be nice though :) 11:43:26 -!- michael_lf [~michael@117.32.153.145] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:44:35 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178-223-141-220.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:44:37 michael_lf [~michael@117.32.153.145] has joined #lisp 11:45:40 noob question ; how do you reach opengl directly from lisp ? 11:46:24 -!- dmiles_afk [dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:48:56 opengl is a C library, so you would use CFFI. 11:49:01 That is, cl-opengl. 11:51:18 -!- antoni [~user@35.pool85-53-7.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:52:40 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-149-154.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:53:20 The question you should ask yourself is whether lisp software wouldn't be better served if we had a CL library that would implement its own pipeline and directly talk to the graphic hardware. Notably, imagine what we could do if we had a cuda lap or even a lisp->cuda translator... 11:57:31 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:59:49 *Landr* just realized that any lisp program can easily be a quine 12:00:11 1 12:00:16 smallest quine. 12:00:21 (less pixels than 0). 12:00:43   12:00:47 guaranteed less pixels 12:01:14 But it's not a quine, unless you add: (defvar _ '_). 12:01:18 And '_ is not a quine. 12:01:32 :_ could do it, let's count pixels. 12:02:06 "." 12:02:20 could be done in 4 x 2 + 1 pixels 12:02:48 Yeah. But nowadays, ' doesn't come with less than ten pixels, with a nice ball, and a round stem... 12:03:22 and antialliasing and subpixel rendering and gradients and lensflare 12:03:45 You have to make something of all those free cpu cycles... 12:03:49 and gpu cycles. 12:04:11 back in my day we had 128x64 monochrome displays and we liked it! 12:05:03 I have quicklisp installed but when I run (ql:quickload "split-sequence") I get "Name service error in "getaddrinfo": -2" error 12:05:07 do you know why? 12:05:24 bad dns configuration? 12:06:00 pjb, do you mean ql:quikcload is trying to use internet connection? 12:06:16 No. It gets the systems telepathically. 12:06:29 statonjr [~statonjr@64.1.210.2.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:03 *Landr* giggles 12:07:05 hahah I thought when I install quicklisp, it installs this packages by default 12:07:11 bsod1: do you use a proxy? 12:07:13 those'd be very small packages then 12:07:35 Xach, nope, I'm trying this in another computer which doesn't have internet connection right now 12:07:35 Landr: the whole shebang is only about 60 megabytes...not *too* big. 12:07:40 bsod1: ah 12:07:49 bsod1: however, you can get it download and install everything with: (map nil 'ql-dist:ensure-installed (ql-dist:provided-systems t)) 12:08:05 dmiles_afk [dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:08:07 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:08:10 pjb, thanks, will do when I connect the computer to internet 12:09:10 Xach: perhaps quicklisp could add a message indicating how to download everything upon installation? 12:09:39 wget * 12:09:50 you'd need half a dozen floppies to download everything though 12:10:16 60 MB : 1.4 MB -> more than half a dozen. 12:10:29 just keep compressing it 12:11:19 pjb: I don't know if I want to encourage that. 12:14:01 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 12:14:57 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 12:17:48 <_6502_> i know someone that has an algorithm that can compress any file to about 3/4 the size 12:17:59 <_6502_> he's still working on the decompressor, tho 12:19:46 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@93-36-5-5.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:20:39 -!- glidesurfer [~glidesurf@2002:4fcd:c95d:0:230:5ff:fe37:7a8d] has quit [Quit: Bye.] 12:21:11 -!- wgl [~wgl@209.242.26.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:21:15 O_o 12:21:46 -!- alama [~alama@d91-129-28-166.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:23:33 <_6502_> landr: then why not "" ? 12:23:59 carlocci [~nes@93.37.198.49] has joined #lisp 12:24:04 ermmmm 12:28:28 alama [~alama@d83-187-164-185.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 12:28:34 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-98-113-194-183.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:36 -!- rainyrhy [~rainyrhy@bb119-74-113-107.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:30:07 rainyrhy [~rainyrhy@bb119-74-117-19.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 12:32:59 <_6502_> landr: and anyway the smallest source code for a quine is an empty file (it's also a cross-language quine) 12:33:40 -!- sacho [~sacho@46.10.4.19] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:34:51 but does an empty file count as a file 12:36:08 _6502_: however, some languages reject empty sources. 12:36:21 -!- genieliu [~genieliu@59.78.62.120] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:37:28 <_6502_> pjb: I didn't say universal, but it's for example lisp, python, perl and many others 12:37:32 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 12:37:37 <_6502_> pjb: not java, tho :-D 12:38:18 *_6502_* wonders what's the size of smalles java quine 12:38:24 <_6502_> probably around 70kb 12:38:28 <_6502_> hehehe 12:38:32 would there be a benefit to opening cl-net Subversion repositories through http(s)? 12:40:11 antifuchs: ping 12:42:15 <_6502_> ehu: it would increase the variety of error messages of automatic dependency resolving tools 12:42:18 <_6502_> jk 12:43:39 _6502_: ? 12:43:40 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.198.49] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:43:56 <_6502_> just kidding :-) 12:44:17 ok. sorry not to get the joke. 12:44:42 <_6502_> ehu: for some strange reason every time i try to get an automated tools to download dependencies for me it fails with an error or another 12:45:11 <_6502_> ehu: more ways to download dependencies => more possible errors :-D 12:45:29 unless tools don't use that method... 12:45:38 quicklisp has its own repository. 12:46:00 <_6502_> oh... i didn't know, this is a smart choice 12:46:26 <_6502_> now it would be perfect if everyone would move there, however 12:46:33 -!- PuffTheMagic is now known as Puffy_pixi 12:47:55 foocraft [~ewanas@86.36.49.200] has joined #lisp 12:48:56 -!- Puffy_pixi is now known as PuffTheMagic 12:49:37 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 12:51:40 -!- Landr [~user@78-21-51-210.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:52:10 varjag [~eugene@162.163.9.46.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 13:03:15 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 13:03:54 rainyrhy_ [~rainyrhy@bb119-74-117-19.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 13:05:23 HG` [~HG@p579F7DAF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:07:08 Landr [~user@78-21-53-190.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 13:07:10 -!- Landr [~user@78-21-53-190.access.telenet.be] has quit [Client Quit] 13:08:07 Landr [~user@78-21-53-190.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 13:08:17 -!- rainyrhy [~rainyrhy@bb119-74-117-19.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:15:39 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@64.1.210.2.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Quit: statonjr] 13:18:54 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:20:01 Yuzuchan [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:20:42 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-169.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:34 carlocci [~nes@93.37.198.49] has joined #lisp 13:24:39 -!- jrockway [~jrockway@2001:470:1f0e:bfa::2] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:25:15 jrockway [~jrockway@2001:470:1f0e:bfa::2] has joined #lisp 13:28:25 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@31.141.51.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:29:33 bsod1 [~sinan@31.141.13.17] has joined #lisp 13:30:23 SLIME can't show me definition of SPLIT-SEQUENCE when I load it with (ql:quickload "split-sequence"), do you know why? 13:30:40 you're not in the right package? 13:30:57 nikodemus: I'm new, how can I change my package? 13:31:11 (split-sequence:split-sequence M-. 13:31:26 -!- jrockway [~jrockway@2001:470:1f0e:bfa::2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:31:27 or add (:use :split-sequence) to your defpackage 13:31:37 jrockway [~jrockway@2001:470:1f0e:bfa::2] has joined #lisp 13:31:46 gadek [~konrad@188.146.90.210.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has joined #lisp 13:31:49 where's minion? he's been mia for a while now 13:31:58 You can't trust bots. 13:32:11 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:41:30 -!- jrockway [~jrockway@2001:470:1f0e:bfa::2] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:41:47 <_6502_> pjb: why? they're written in CL? 13:42:09 jrockway [~jrockway@2001:470:1f0e:bfa::2] has joined #lisp 13:43:07 when I run ql:quickload in SLIME REPL, it's ok but when I run it from a sbcl script file(which I run with sbcl --script file.cl), I get "package "QL" not found" error, do you know why? 13:53:24 _6502_: because they go on holidays all the time. 13:53:48 bsod1: scripts don't load the rc file by default. 13:53:59 bsod1: so you need to do what you do in rc files in scripts too. 13:54:14 bsod1: also mind that scripts are not usually run by the same user as the author of the script... 13:54:28 bsod1: so you have to think about the stand-alone-ness of the scripts you write. 13:54:35 -!- foocraft [~ewanas@86.36.49.200] has quit [Quit: if you're going....to san. fran. cisco!!!] 13:55:54 bsod1: --script inhibits loading your .sbclrc 13:57:27 sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has joined #lisp 13:58:18 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c711b3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:34 bsod1: so you need to add the quicklisp setup code from your .sbclrc to your script, or alternatively use save-lisp-and-die to generate an sbcl executable that has quicklisp stuff already loaded, and use #!/home/bin/quicksbcl --script instead 13:59:51 i somehow thought pascal was talking about why minion isn't here :) 14:02:18 -!- gadek [~konrad@188.146.90.210.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:02:44 gadek [~konrad@188.146.90.210.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has joined #lisp 14:05:28 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 14:05:46 -!- bsod1 [~sinan@31.141.13.17] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:09:36 urandom__ [~user@p548A70F0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:00 binghe [~binghe@115.232.212.216] has joined #lisp 14:11:24 La0fer [~Laofers1@64.120.233.114] has joined #lisp 14:11:33 -!- binghe [~binghe@115.232.212.216] has left #lisp 14:11:36 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:16:40 hi :) I've got perf. problems with CL (SBCL). github.com/kgadek/kpfp/blob/perf-test/zz_PerfTest/ here are codes that solve some simple problem (binary search on a small table) but still solution in C has 12 sec while CL is... 42sec 14:17:04 what I have done wrong? 14:19:39 and well... this is not the code I am concerned (I have to solve some NP-complete problems with DLX algorithm actually) but the issue is the same -- identical code in CL + opt. flags is slower than C/C++ 14:20:05 so the whole idea of using Lisp for me is a question now 14:22:17 lisp is slower than C, there's no denying that 14:23:21 gadek: http://cliki.net/Performance 14:23:33 lisppaste: url? 14:23:45 http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp 14:24:46 well, it's also slower than Python in this case 14:24:55 :-) 14:24:58 . 14:25:07 p_l|backup: no, the Python version solves 100x smaller problem 14:25:14 ahh 14:25:15 1000^2 14:25:20 while C/CL solves 1000^2 14:25:24 *10000^2 14:25:31 gadek does it have to be fast, anyway? 14:26:04 yes, I have to solve one NP-complete problem (exact cover) as a part of a bigger project 14:26:14 and yes 14:26:33 it is slower that exactly the same algo in C 14:27:18 so I made this rather simple test to check if it is a problem with one algo or general... seems to be general 14:29:48 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 14:32:16 12sec to 42sec sounds ok, i gues you havent done anything wrong, so yeah if it is to slow for you, you will have to use C 14:34:32 -!- gadek [~konrad@188.146.90.210.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:36:46 neaer [~adskjf@118.39.114.41] has joined #lisp 14:37:29 But we'll never know if he made a dump blunder in his code... 14:37:46 His code is fucked up 14:37:48 glidesurfer [~glidesurf@2002:4fcd:c95d:0:230:5ff:fe37:7a8d] has joined #lisp 14:38:27 Lots of unnecessary declarations, THE, really weird side effect spaghetti all over 14:40:02 gadek [~konrad@188.146.90.210.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has joined #lisp 14:40:26 gadek: You should really fix your code 14:40:34 sorry, anyone wrote anythin after urandom__ | gadek does it have to be fast, anyway? 14:40:42 I had a disconnect 14:40:53 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-127-195.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 14:41:52 sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:42:54 -!- alama [~alama@d83-187-164-185.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Quit: alama] 14:45:52 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:55 gadek: your url is wrong, it's https://github.com/kgadek/kpfp.git 14:46:53 zeroish [~zeroish@135.207.174.50] has joined #lisp 14:46:54 pjb: https://github.com/kgadek/kpfp/blob/perf-test/zz_PerfTest/bs.lisp and https://github.com/kgadek/kpfp/blob/perf-test/zz_PerfTest/bs.c 14:47:04 and if anyone want my whole repo: 14:47:05 gadek: it run in 2 seconds here 14:47:25 git clone git@github.com:kgadek/kpfp.git 14:47:30 wowdd1 [~zd@183.37.57.56] has joined #lisp 14:47:35 gadek: this is not lisp code, this is html. 14:47:53 drdo: could you expand ,,where" and ,,what'' run in 2 sec? 14:47:58 gadek: your lisp code 14:48:01 pjb: yup, something like lisppaste 14:48:04 your code runs in 5sec 14:48:11 but after a minor fix 14:48:12 2sec 14:48:25 drdo: oh, what fix? 14:48:33 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-82-173.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 14:48:56 a fixnum declaration 14:49:01 the vector elements 14:49:12 by the way, you have way too many declarations 14:49:15 that's not needed at all 14:49:46 -!- wowdd1 [~zd@183.37.57.56] has left #lisp 14:51:00 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.101.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:53:18 z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 14:56:30 -!- HG` [~HG@p579F7DAF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:57:00 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:57:17 gadek: is val supposed to be a fixnum? 14:58:01 drdo: what exacly did you do? I'm rather beginner and I didn't get such a speedup 14:58:05 gadek: that kind-of halves the time here, so... 14:58:14 madnificent: that's exactly what i did 14:58:46 drdo: though to be fair, I just tried it, I didn't check that it should do that. I probably should've looked into the algorithm further 14:58:50 sbcl is even nice enough to tell you about stuff 14:59:11 madnificent: i tried looking but it's quite a mess and i didn't bother 15:00:09 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-77-166.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 15:00:11 gadek: for val of-type fixnum = (svref vect i) 15:00:47 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:47 drdo: I didn't want to have said that. Thanks :) 15:01:00 cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.101.216] has joined #lisp 15:01:07 gadek: but really, fix your code first, it's quite messy and hard to understand 15:01:25 also, you don't need most of those declarations you have 15:01:37 HG` [~HG@p5DC0567D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:36 drdo: ooh, nicer, I declared it through (the fixnum val) later on 15:04:26 madnificent: yeah, loop has that, it's nicer than sprinkling THE everywhere 15:04:56 yes it is 15:05:20 drdo: I pushed fixed code, I have 5 sec vs 9 sec (on my netbook) 15:05:39 still slower... any ideas of tweaking it more? :P 15:05:49 (or maybe I did this tweak wrong?) 15:06:36 gadek: make your code readable first 15:06:50 drdo: but it is supposed to be fastest 15:06:51 then think about optimizing 15:06:54 not cleanest 15:06:59 lanthan__ [~ze@p54B7F5A6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:05 the algo is from The Art of Computer Programming 15:07:09 lists in CL are linked cons cells, right? How to see cdr as an address of (nth 0 '(1 2 3))? 15:07:13 gadek: it's fucking horrible, i fixed it a little bit in obvious ways but i didn't bother to go further 15:07:19 make only some tweaks (no gotos --> loop instead) 15:07:27 vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 15:07:48 drdo: well... maybe I'm wrong 15:07:56 could you show me your version? 15:07:56 Reaper507: Didn't understand the last part 15:08:24 -!- lanthan_ [~ze@p54B7CEDB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:08:33 gadek: http://paste.lisp.org/+2MIS 15:08:44 this is just fixed in obvious ways, didn't bother actually understanding 15:09:24 drdo: in that way, loop is ugly imho 15:09:57 drdo: I want to see an adress which is in CDR part of the first element of the list 15:09:59 madnificent: it is pretty ugly, i basically just rewrote what was there 15:10:15 Reaper507: what's an address? 15:12:05 I've just treied to use ASDF for the first time, and I'm having a (small) problem: I have put a :depends-on to an external library (for this test, :clsql) but when I load the system, it says that CLSQL can't be found. If I, however, do a (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :clsql) first (in order to prove that the clsql system is indeed available), everything works fine. What could be the problem? 15:12:37 drdo: mmm is it possible to operate with addresses of places in CL? 15:13:06 gadek: Besides, you're not benchmarking the same thing. C rand() is not CL:RANDOM. 15:13:13 Reaper507: an object is already an "address" (for specification values of "address") 15:13:36 loke: asdf by itself doesn't "cause" external libraries to get loaded...you need to be using asdf-install or (better yet) quicklisp to do that...both of those use the declared dependencies to determine load order 15:13:38 I mean "specific" not specification 15:14:09 hargettp: I see. I just thought that ASDF would perform a LOAD-OP on the dependent packages? 15:14:10 loke: weird. normally if you can load clsql directly it should load indirectly as a dependency. what does your system file look like? 15:14:22 loke: hargettp doesn't know what he's talking about. 15:14:27 :( 15:14:30 loke: or, if he does, he's not expressing it very clearly. 15:14:57 Reaper507: no, it's not 15:15:01 xach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/122501 15:15:45 loke: ok, your problem is the defpackage. 15:15:54 Reaper507: Why do you want to do such a thing? 15:16:08 Xach: Hmm, I think I understand 15:16:09 loke: you would not normally define a package in a system file that requires a system not yet loaded. 15:16:31 Xach: so, you're saying that I should have a completely different package for the asd file, then? 15:16:35 loke: you don't need defpackage in simple system files. 15:16:51 loke: you can just use (asdf:defsystem mysystem ...) 15:17:20 Jschmurkc: I learn CL. I want to know, nothing more. 15:17:26 Xach: wasn't there a post about it on planet.lisp.org a while ago? Saying that asdf implicitly creates a new package? 15:17:55 Reaper507: some common lisps might very well let you do that, but it is generally not something you want to do. 15:18:09 Reaper507: could you try to rephrase your sentence a few times. Perhaps substitute address? There are no explicit addresses, but I suspect you want to know something related. 15:18:29 Reaper507: Can you clarify in more detail what it is you want to know? 15:19:25 Reaper507: (I am under the impression that you want something like &foo in C). 15:20:09 yay! it works! 15:20:12 thanks Xach 15:20:46 loke: well, I try. This list '(1 2 3) exist somewhere in memory. I want to know an address of the X element. Just for nothing. Just for learn. :) 15:21:14 Reaper507: not possible 15:21:19 ok, tnx 15:21:24 drdo: wait 15:21:31 *loke* is fed up with having at least 3 different ways to access SQL databases in CL, so I'm writing a meta-system to allow me to isolate the different underlying implementations. Please tell me if this is a bad idea. 15:21:31 drdo: isn't it? 15:21:53 Reaper507: not really possible in CL, however, you don't really need to. 15:21:55 madnificent: not it a portable way at least 15:22:00 drdo: if you use (car '(1 2 3)) you get the object that was there... 15:22:01 *in 15:22:14 that's different from an actual memory address 15:22:19 drdo: that's what Reaper507 want's to have, I think 15:22:45 drdo: yes it is different, however it works for the same practices. It depends on Reaper507's actual goal though. 15:22:45 Reaper507: some CLs will let you do such things, for sure. 15:23:33 Reaper507: would you want the address in order to send that object to another function? 15:25:00 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-211-115.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:25:33 madnificent: Noooo! I read the book, I read about lists and cons, I thought about "mmmm.... is it possible to get an memory address of an element of the list?", then I asked here. Nothing more :) 15:26:09 ah, in that case, all my comments are worthless :) 15:26:24 -!- tsanhwa [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:26:29 batman [~batman@222.211.197.100] has joined #lisp 15:26:34 sorry for dummy question ) 15:26:44 Reaper507: How you'd go about doing it would very much depend on what CL implementation you are using. 15:26:49 -!- batman is now known as Guest64601 15:29:21 RenJuan [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:29:35 loke: not a bad idea. 15:29:51 loke: if you make it a good API, you can even later implement direct adapters to the various DB. 15:30:04 -!- kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.237.227] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:30:15 pjb: Yeah, well. Right now it's a very simple LCD approack 15:30:17 approach 15:30:31 statonjr [~statonjr@64.1.210.2.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:37 Reaper507: I already told you. You can use locative, ie. closures. 15:30:41 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757dd4.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:30:44 The need arised when I realised that I had to deploy an application on ABCL 15:30:53 And I'll be using the Java mapping to JDBC there 15:31:51 turns out that I had to write a new backend storage layer, so I figured I could just work on a generic wrapper for it. 15:32:06 Reaper507: didn't you notice by & macro? And of course, deref is only called deref because * is already taken for multiplication, but you could (shadow '*) and name it * instead. 15:34:00 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A70F0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:35:40 alama [~alama@d83-187-164-185.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 15:35:56 bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.167.5] has joined #lisp 15:42:23 -!- gadek [~konrad@188.146.90.210.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:42:50 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:47:40 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 15:47:42 Reaper507: (sb-kernel:get-lisp-obj-address (list 1 2 3)) 15:47:47 good luck with that 15:49:18 Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.228.40.23] has joined #lisp 15:49:35 -!- homie [~levent.gu@xdsl-84-44-211-232.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:49:42 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-127-195.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:43 urandom__ [~user@p548A30F1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:06 *agumonkey* gonna read #c 15:50:18 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-157-5.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:51 Reaper507: it's so much that it's a dumb questions, as rather it's a question that has several levels. 15:51:14 *_6502_* wonders why the address idea is not present in lisp.... may be they liked the idea of being able to move objects around in memory? 15:51:36 markskilbeck [~chris@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 15:51:39 Reaper507: A lisp object may have a hardware address (or not, depending). It's a implementation specific consideration, and one that you don't what to have in general. 15:52:00 Reaper507: So in general, objects don't have address and you don't want to deal with addresses. 15:52:58 it's the mathematical side of lisp father, they write symbol, the memory is irrelevant, thats why they added automatic memory management too 15:53:02 Reaper507: on the other hand, most lisp objects are references. So when you pass an argument by value, you actually get the object, which is a reference, and if the object is mutable, you can change it (just as if you had passed the address of the object in C). 15:54:01 Reaper507: but then, some objects are not references (eg. numbers and characters) or are immutable, so having them is not similar to having an address, but rather a non-pointer value. 15:54:19 Reaper507: so the address of a lisp object is in general meaningless. 15:54:41 thank you 15:54:43 homie [~levent.gu@xdsl-84-44-211-232.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:54:47 Reaper507: which doesn't prevent you to use closures to implement something like the C & operator, and the C * operator, as I gave urls befores. 15:55:13 yes I saw, interesting 15:55:40 Reaper507: besides, since we expect a garbage collect from CL implementations, and since most garbage collects move the objects, their physical address change! 15:56:53 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:05 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.167.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:58:02 -!- varjag [~eugene@162.163.9.46.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:58:31 varjag [~eugene@162.163.9.46.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 15:59:50 -!- agumonkey [~noob@141.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:04:15 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:04:28 kaek [~dsa@88.129.79.132] has joined #lisp 16:05:10 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@64.1.210.2.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Quit: statonjr] 16:05:54 seangrove [~user@c-69-181-41-116.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:00 -!- alama [~alama@d83-187-164-185.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Quit: alama] 16:13:40 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-11-41.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:11 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:14:52 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.56] has joined #lisp 16:19:28 -!- varjag [~eugene@162.163.9.46.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:19:47 pnq [~nick@AC820646.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 16:25:05 sacho [~sacho@95-42-105-25.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 16:29:33 *Landr* is finally starting to understand hunchentoot 16:32:36 joshe [~joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 16:32:56 snearch [~snearch@f053007128.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:33:29 gadek [~konrad@ablv97.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:35:57 centipedefarmer [~nothingHa@173-29-195-221.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 16:36:09 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-82-173.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:36:21 twbd [~willem@91.177.43.217] has joined #lisp 16:36:57 -!- twbd_ [~willem@91.177.173.247] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:38:53 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:39:14 -!- sykopomp [~user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:39:30 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:39:50 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:40:44 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 16:41:10 sykopomp [~user@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:47 -!- pnq [~nick@AC820646.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:43:36 -!- sykopomp [~user@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:43:37 sykopomp [~user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 16:45:03 jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-83.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:47:37 -!- vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: vervic] 16:48:31 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-243-196.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 16:48:56 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.118.224] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:52:55 Yuzuchan_ [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:53:45 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 16:55:06 -!- prip [~foo@host92-220-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:55:35 prip [~foo@host92-220-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:56:14 -!- Yuzuchan [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:57:12 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:01:43 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-152-135-21.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:01:48 -!- yroeht [yroeht@server5.tonbnc.fr] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:02:02 yroeht [yroeht@server5.tonbnc.fr] has joined #lisp 17:03:15 -!- billitch [~billitch@bastille.ma3.tv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:03:38 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 17:04:11 -!- xxxyyy1 [~xyxu@222.68.162.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:04:18 Hello! Could you tell me what should I use insted of cl:random? Is there any faster random which I can use? 17:04:50 mrSpec: for what purpose? 17:05:21 (defun my-random () 4) of course! 17:05:29 Xach: friend of mine is still comparing lisp to C, and after remove random times are same... 17:05:43 so random is the worse part of program :( 17:05:48 mrSpec: one easy way to fix that is to get smarter friends. 17:05:52 drdo: yeah! it is very fast one 17:06:03 Xach: his friend is the guy that was here earlier 17:06:19 *Xach* mercifully missed it 17:06:32 drdo: I think, yes 17:07:09 ok, so if I was called... :P 17:07:17 pnq [~nick@AC845073.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 17:07:19 2 sec gain from removing random 17:07:29 in C's version it was... 0,2sec or less... 17:07:38 this rocket is not as good as my car in travelling the road 17:07:44 therefore, this rocket is inferior 17:08:07 gadek: I still don't understand what you're trying to do 17:08:35 drdo: please insert the correct xkcd reference with that ; decided by fair dice roll 17:09:05 madnificent: http://xkcd.com/221/ 17:09:57 mrSpec: perhaps we should add a type declaration to that :) speed was important, you know. ;) 17:10:15 regardless, I'm a bit surprised that there isn't a library containing various random algorithms 17:10:27 how many times are you calling RANDOM ? 17:10:33 waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-4d049e67.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:06 billitch [~billitch@bastille.ma3.tv] has joined #lisp 17:11:34 drdo: I have one big NP-complete problem which I try to solve with Genetic Algor. and one of the preprocessing function is somewhat similar to this function. And yes, the whole program is supposed to work for about... 8h or more on a small grid of computers 17:11:34 -!- gadek [~konrad@ablv97.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 17:11:58 gadek [~konrad@ablv97.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 17:12:05 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:12:16 drdo: I have one big NP-complete problem which I try to solve with Genetic Algor. and one of the preprocessing function is somewhat similar to this function. And yes, the whole program is supposed to work for about... 8h or more on a small grid of computers 17:12:18 (time (loop for i from 1 to 100000 :do (format t "~A~%" (random i)))) => 1.009846 secons user mode, 0.022996 seconds system mode. 17:12:46 so those 60% makes a big difference 17:12:53 including format overhead. idk... seems pretty fast. 17:13:58 that's on ccl... sbcl would likely be a bit faster. 17:14:00 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-152-138-69.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 17:14:16 <_3b> pbj: lisp->cuda wouldn't be all that useful for the things opengl does, and there is already https://github.com/angavrilov/cl-gpu 17:15:42 <_3b> gadek: if you have a specific algorithm to implement, which is easily implemented in C, why not just use C? (maybe call it from lisp if the rest of the code is less well understood) 17:15:44 Fade: take into account I measured it on my netbook 17:16:16 I have plenty of algos like this I have to implement 17:16:25 <_3b> gadek: you probably want your own random in C or lisp either way though 17:16:30 have you profiled the code? 17:16:45 -!- Guest64601 [~batman@222.211.197.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:16:52 _3b: the point is that if you pass a wrong argument to an opengl implemented in CL, it wouldn't crash your argument, but signal a nice condition with nice restarts. 17:17:05 and they all have to be very fast 17:17:05 after 2 minutes (sic!) I killed it 17:17:05 determ. profiler sucks very much 17:17:07 also shouldn't you pregen random sample sets 17:17:09 _3b: So even if it was functionnaly equivalent, it'd be much better. 17:17:20 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:17:25 gadek: so you should implement your own, faster random :) 17:17:31 sbcl's statistical profiler is pretty useful. 17:17:38 *Fade* shrugs 17:17:39 <_3b> pjb: but CUDA is probably even easier to crash than GL, and isn't any closer to the hardware than GL 17:17:45 oGMo: and fore most, use the same random sequence in C as in CL! 17:17:47 <_3b> (and only works on 1 brand of cards) 17:18:05 pjb: exactly 17:18:21 <_3b> pjb: and given than 'fast' is an important 'function' of opengl, it wouldn't be functionally equivalent :) 17:18:41 using random data is one thing, nonreproducible runs are bad 17:19:18 *_3b* hopes most real languages at least have a reproducible random, if not a random one 17:20:07 -!- RenJuan [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Exeunt IRC] 17:20:09 There's no need for tons of declaration, or for (safety 0). You get the same code with the obvious recursive binary search: . 17:20:27 _3b: until something silently reseeds ;) 17:20:50 <_3b> oGMo: well, at least cl:random you can bind the state dynamically :) 17:21:16 _3b: but you can't get subtreams, so that only goes so far. 17:21:18 _3b: heh true 17:21:18 kephas [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-47-128.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:21:57 <_3b> pkhuong: yeah, not saying there aren't reasons to use your own, just to make sure they are valid reasons :) 17:22:06 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053007128.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 17:23:07 Although, for that sort of benchmark, I much prefer to generate the random inputs ahead of time and store them in a vector. 17:23:31 Unless you want to benchmark cl:random vs. rand(3). 17:23:46 -!- centipedefarmer [~nothingHa@173-29-195-221.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:23:54 -!- nowhereman [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-77-140.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:24:02 Unless you're trying to benchmark really tiny tasks, the one extra *streaming* access is noise. 17:26:50 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:27:38 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:36 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:29:54 -!- Yuzuchan_ [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:30:27 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-17-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:38 Yuzuchan [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:34:39 HG`` [~HG@p5DC055D0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:26 super__ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 17:35:53 -!- Yuzuchan [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:37:28 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:37:50 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC0567D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:39:43 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:45:28 -!- Landr [~user@78-21-53-190.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:50:01 in ASDF, are :depends-on relations transitive, ie. if A depends on B and B depends on C, then A depends on C ? 17:50:04 -!- pnq [~nick@AC845073.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Quit: bleh] 17:51:13 galdor: What needs to happen before you can load A? 17:52:03 some code in A may use functions defined in C 17:52:20 typically, game.lisp depends on db.lisp which depends on utils.lisp 17:52:27 now game.lisp uses functions defined in utils.lisp 17:52:28 answer the question 17:52:48 I just did: "some code in A may use functions defined in C" 17:52:56 these function need to be loaded 17:53:14 The point is, before you load something, all the dependencies must be loaded 17:53:23 yes 17:53:30 so if A depends on B depends on C 17:53:35 then obviously if you try to load A 17:53:46 C will be loaded first because otherwise B can't load 17:53:49 and so A can't load 17:53:50 got it 17:54:00 thank you for explaining 17:54:41 -!- gadek [~konrad@ablv97.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: one problem solved made making Erwin fun again... total WIN :) thx all] 18:06:32 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.152.104] has joined #lisp 18:08:20 landr [~lambda@78-21-53-190.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 18:09:53 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-152-138-69.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:09:59 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-157-115.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 18:13:08 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:14:24 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-152-138-69.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 18:20:53 -!- galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:22:30 galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:33 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:22:40 <|3b|> is there some way to tell asdf that i moved a particular system? 18:23:25 |3b|: I don't know if compile-file on the asd still works, but it used to (by accident) 18:23:27 -!- galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 18:23:56 <|3b|> yeah, i meant a 'correct' way :) 18:24:00 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:22 galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:13 -!- galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 18:25:59 galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:49 -!- galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 18:27:30 galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:47 <|3b|> ah, asdf:clear-system seems to have done it 18:29:11 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-152-138-69.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:29:26 -!- galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 18:30:47 galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:43 -!- galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 18:32:31 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-11-41.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:32:32 Atomsk [ace4016@adsl-184-32-11-41.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:34 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:35:53 -!- sykopomp [~user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:36:45 I'm I the only one who gets a "SB-KERNEL:*MAXIMUM-ERROR-DEPTH* exceeded." when evaluating the following form: 18:36:46 (json:encode-json-to-string 18:36:46 '((:a . ((b . ((:c . 42))))))) 18:37:09 vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 18:37:15 (json:encode-json-to-string 18:37:15 '((:a . ((:b . ((:c . 42))))))) 18:37:19 for uniformity 18:37:48 *|3b|* gets a reader error :p 18:37:51 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.167.213.98] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:37:53 it seems that as soon as there more than 3 levels of nesting, it just goes haywire 18:38:15 *galdor* does not 18:38:27 galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:36 <|3b|> (which was intended as a hint that you need to specify /which/ json: you mean) 18:38:42 oh, sorry 18:38:43 CL-JSON 18:38:50 *|3b|* knows of at least 3, and it doesn't seem to be yason 18:38:53 I also don't know why you write lists that way. 18:38:56 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-172-163.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:39:17 -!- galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 18:39:29 <|3b|> yeah, cl-json seems to break on that 18:39:43 I send various game data to a javascript frontend, there's a real need of nesting 18:40:29 cl-json? 18:40:31 *landr* is curious 18:40:42 <|3b|> why do you pass it a dotted list? 18:40:49 <|3b|> and what do you expect it to do with it? 18:40:54 to get json objects, instead of json arrays 18:41:03 galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:08 I expect to get {a: {b: {c: 42}}} 18:42:17 -!- galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 18:42:18 I guess it's the time to debug cl-json, it really sucks for a sunday evening :/ 18:42:38 you could try and use some of the other json libraries. 18:43:07 galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:12 oudeis [~oudeis@2.53.230.94] has joined #lisp 18:43:12 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@2.53.230.94] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:43:34 well I'm gonna read cl-json encoder and see what I can do; replacing a library for a large project takes some time, and if I can fix cl-json, it will be useful for everyone 18:44:32 using alists depends on the encoder making the correct guess 18:44:43 galdor: it's not cl-json that sucks, it's json. 18:44:54 -!- galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 18:45:06 foocraft [~ewanas@78.101.153.142] has joined #lisp 18:45:07 you could try and use hash tables to represent objects. 18:45:17 CLOS 18:45:38 <|3b|> pjb: nah, it is the mismatch between json and cl :/ 18:45:44 the json representation is serialized and sent to a javascript frontend 18:45:45 pjb: that's not how cl-json sees it. Of course, you can also write your own rules. 18:46:00 I have CLOS instances for all game entities 18:46:07 |3b|: more precisely, yes. But it wouldn't have happened in the first place if they used sexps instead of json. 18:46:22 when I need to same game data, I create alists that I serialize and send to the frontend 18:46:29 <|3b|> pjb: we'd probably still have all the same problems, they'd just be on the other end instead 18:46:29 galdor: don't create alists. 18:46:30 s/same/send/ 18:46:31 galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:47 what do you suggest ? 18:46:51 |3b|: well, the other end can easily be lisp too. 18:47:00 If they can run Linux, they can run Lisp! 18:47:17 -!- galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 18:47:21 I have a small OBJ macro which allow me to quickly create these alist, such as: (obj :foo 1 :bar 2) which yields {foo: 1, bar: 2} 18:47:35 at the end of the day, it's definitely a CL-JSON bug 18:47:37 galdor: hash tables are unabiguous. 18:47:54 I would definetly use hash-tables 18:48:10 I'm not gonna instanciate hash-tables for game data where most structures have less than 10 members 18:48:11 galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:15 sure. But any bugfix will only make JSON successfully encode *something*; it won't help you make the difference between an alist and a list: there isn't any. 18:48:17 <|3b|> right, because the people complaining about firefox using too much ram will be /really/ happy when each tab loads a copy of linux with sbcl in it :p 18:48:36 galdor: you can also write your own encoding rules and avoid the lossy alist IR. 18:49:02 -!- galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 18:49:13 |3b|: _someone_ should write a libsbcl or something 18:49:20 yes, I can also use format to write the json string directly, but I don't see what's the issue with a-lists 18:49:28 <|3b|> galdor: maybe (json:use-explicit-encoder) then (json:encode-json-to-string '(:object :a (:object :b (:object :c 2)))) ? 18:49:31 they are small, simple, and CL-JSON convert them correctly 18:49:39 galdor: there is no difference between alists and lists. 18:49:46 galdor: the problem is when you read 18:49:51 you don't know if it's a dict or a list 18:50:00 Yet, to encode them to JSON, the encoder must guess whether a given CONS is a list or an slist. 18:50:02 galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:03 *alist 18:50:05 yes 18:50:34 that's the reason why i went with hash-tables when i was implementing shitty bencode 18:50:39 didn't know about the explicit encoder 18:50:42 it's just more convinient 18:50:42 call me when your json library has developed mind-reading skills. I'll have better uses to put it to than encoding json. 18:51:04 -!- galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 18:51:16 well I can use the explicit encoder and make make OBJ function generate explicit objects 18:51:38 beach` [~user@116.118.5.131] has joined #lisp 18:51:46 galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:47 *|3b|* can't tell what that encode-json-list-guessing-encoder is trying to do with that error handling 18:52:30 -!- galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 18:53:04 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.152.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:53:10 -!- beach [~user@116.118.9.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:53:16 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 18:53:20 galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:23 the explicit encoder seems to do the job 18:53:28 thank you 18:53:45 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:53:50 <|3b|> but calling a function that signals unencodable-value-error in the handler for unencodable-value-error sounds like a bad idea :p 18:54:05 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:54:27 fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-165-123.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:54:30 -!- galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 18:54:31 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 18:55:07 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-152-139-72.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 18:55:51 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-83.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:56:27 |3b|: that approach would need soemthing like screamer to work correctly :) 18:57:15 <|3b|> galdor: might want to file a bug on that, even if you have a workaround 18:57:17 I can't type today. Let's blame allergies and stick to math (: 18:57:22 sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:48 galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:49 -!- galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 18:59:04 yep, I'll send a mail 18:59:07 <|3b|> pkhuong: yeah, that would probably make it even harder to understand though :p 18:59:15 -!- msmith1 [~msmit297@adsl-184-36-176-157.asm.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 18:59:36 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-152-139-72.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:00:04 galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:53 antoni [~user@212.pool85-53-5.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 19:00:55 -!- galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:01:46 galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:17 Aiwass [~Aiwass4@82.137.13.227] has joined #lisp 19:02:19 wgl [~wgl@209.242.26.41] has joined #lisp 19:02:23 -!- waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-4d049e67.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: WTF? leaving!] 19:04:51 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-152-139-72.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 19:06:30 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-149-154.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 19:06:53 -!- galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:08:00 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-17-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:08:41 galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:53 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.101.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:09:21 -!- galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:10:23 galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:04 -!- galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:13:01 galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:33 -!- galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:14:44 galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:49 cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.101.216] has joined #lisp 19:15:30 -!- galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:15:56 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-152-139-72.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:16:29 galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:58 -!- _6502_ [5e24f712@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.247.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:19:13 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:19:57 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:24:37 zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 19:25:04 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-152-139-72.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 19:25:50 hocwp [~user@AAmiens-552-1-134-27.w86-215.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:26:40 -!- galumph [~ron@bzq-84-109-188-221.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:26:48 Hi everybody. 19:29:49 hihocwp 19:29:52 ello 19:30:09 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.132] has joined #lisp 19:30:11 *landr* am confus 19:30:24 _6502_ [4e0cec91@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.12.236.145] has joined #lisp 19:30:27 I do (make-package :server :use '(:hunchentoot :cl-who :ht-simple-ajax)) 19:30:40 but afterwards I get "The variable *AJAX-PROCESSOR* is unbound." 19:30:42 landr: hy so? 19:30:47 so do I still have to use-package? 19:30:57 i thought it'd already inherit the external symbols 19:34:44 i honestly don't get it 19:34:46 i make the package 19:34:48 i switch to it 19:34:52 but no symbols :[ 19:36:03 ohhh, wait 19:36:09 i should also include cl 19:36:36 hahaa! 19:37:10 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178-223-157-115.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:40:24 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-152-139-72.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:40:40 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:41:36 ok, this is complete bull 19:41:42 it works well when I do line by line 19:41:58 but if I store it in a file and do (load "file.lisp") it won't do some of them 19:43:17 won't? 19:43:39 nope 19:43:47 hang on, let me paste it 19:46:09 http://paste.lisp.org/display/122507 19:47:33 landr: What did you do? What did you expect to happen? What happened instead? 19:47:47 I stored that file as "server.lisp" 19:47:50 I start up sbcl 19:47:56 I do (load "server.lisp") 19:48:37 and this is what I get: http://paste.lisp.org/display/122508 19:48:39 bsod1 [~sinan@31.141.97.14] has joined #lisp 19:48:53 <|3b|> make-package? 19:49:05 well, the package works 19:49:06 waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-4d049e67.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:09 it just won't switch to it 19:49:26 because if i manually do (in-package :server), followed by all the other commands, it works fine 19:49:35 please let landr answer my question, if he's inclined. 19:49:38 he hasn't finished yet. 19:50:06 and please annotate pastes instead of making new ones. 19:50:10 is there a way to find out what package you are currently in? 19:50:12 sorry 19:50:25 landr: the current value of *PACKAGE* will tell you. 19:50:46 Vivitron [47ae3d21@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.174.61.33] has joined #lisp 19:51:04 landr: so far i haven't seen any problems. are you getting to that part? 19:51:55 landr: i'm guessing you weren't aware of this part of the specification of cl:load: "load binds *readtable* and *package* to the values they held before loading the file." 19:52:19 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:52:24 or the implication that any changes to the binding of *package* done in a file that is cl:load-ed will have no effect outside that call to cl:load... 19:52:35 ? so... once the load is finished it goes back to the initial package? 19:53:04 But I hate guessing, and I'd rather find out for sure what you did that makes you think there's a problem. 19:53:30 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:53:42 is there an alternative to load, then? 19:53:53 landr: Would you please answer my question first? 19:54:13 well, I don't really understand the question 19:54:18 I load the server.lisp file 19:54:28 landr: Why do you think there is a problem? Your paste does not show one. 19:54:33 o_O 19:54:50 well yes, it does show "all done!" at the end 19:55:00 but then when I try to invoke the page function, it says it can't find it 19:55:05 landr: how do you try to do that? 19:55:10 please show what you do. 19:55:18 ok, hang on, let me do it properly this time 19:56:24 a-ha, that was indeed it 19:56:35 at the end of the load I get thrown back to # 19:56:43 Sounds violent. 19:56:51 well, i certainly didn't request it :P 19:57:05 Your ignorance of CL semantics does not constitute a mugging. 19:57:07 but when I return to package "Server", everything works as expected 19:58:05 Maybe a mugging - of knowledge! 19:58:43 hmm, ok, I see why load might be doing that 20:03:22 also, i can't remember the last time i saw a sensible non-didactic use of make-package. 20:03:33 defpackage is the thing to use most of the time 20:05:25 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:05:56 hmm, ok 20:06:43 Ok, I'm lost. In the MOP dictionary, it's first said that "A class metaobject can be redefined by calling reinitialize-instance.", and then just after that "Since metaobject classes may not be redefined, no behavior is specified for the result of calls to update-instance-for-redefined-class on class metaobjects." So which is it?? 20:07:29 Is a class metaobject and a metaobject class the same thing?... That terminology really throws me off. 20:07:40 Hexstream: it's not. 20:08:09 A metaobject class is basically a metaclass?... 20:08:33 a class metaobject is an instance of a metaobject class :-) 20:08:44 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-152-135-21.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 20:08:45 yes. 20:09:00 takes very careful reading, the MOP 20:10:34 Yes, when I was a newb I read it and didn't understand jackshit, this time around I read it again and "mostly understood mostly everything", but I'm trying to put that into practice and find that I don't yet have a practical understanding and there's lots of holes in my knowledge... 20:12:03 so how did you work your way up from being a noob? :< 20:12:48 -!- Aiwass [~Aiwass4@82.137.13.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:12:54 landr: I made a number of "fairly complex" projects. (still awaiting cleanup) 20:14:01 Over a ~5 years timespan, so I hope you're not in a hurry. But it's well worth it. 20:14:18 i just started 6 months ago :< 20:14:20 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 20:15:42 -!- _pw_ [~user@125.34.52.49] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:16:03 _pw_ [~user@125.34.52.49] has joined #lisp 20:16:21 -!- homie [~levent.gu@xdsl-84-44-211-232.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:16:28 xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:31 homie [~levent.gu@xdsl-84-44-211-232.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:17:33 landr: read a lot of code, write code 20:18:09 working on it :> 20:18:18 -!- homie [~levent.gu@xdsl-84-44-211-232.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:18:32 landr: and don't hesitate to discuss your approach with other hackers. 20:18:46 that's where I learned most of my CL 20:19:00 so far I'm doing nothing more than using other's people vastly superior code/libraries and just glueing them together :/ 20:19:46 -!- vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: vervic] 20:20:00 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-152-135-21.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 20:20:10 Is paste.lisp.org broken? 20:20:34 I didn't actually read much 3rd-party code at all yet. I wonder what I'm missing... I kinda assume that most code out there is crap (including mine of course.). 20:20:54 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:21:23 glidesurfer: Seems to work for me. 20:22:00 Trying to paste to a channel I just get a blank page back and nothing happens. 20:23:22 glidesurfer: That's a known issue, but I don't remember what was causing it. Because the appropriate bot is down?... 20:23:25 francogrex [~user@109.130.139.153] has joined #lisp 20:24:08 hmm. lisppaste isn't in the channel here. 20:24:19 however, it seems to be serving the web pages nicely. 20:24:24 I'll restart the bots. 20:24:45 sykopomp [~user@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:49 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:24:53 the bots should get back in ~ 10 20:25:02 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:33 -!- y3llow [~y3llow@111-240-168-112.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:25:42 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-168-112.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:27:16 s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-170-45.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:19 y3llow [~y3llow@111-240-170-45.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:30 lisppaste [~lisppaste@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:59 minion [~minion@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:06 specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:59 workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 20:29:34 -!- sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:29:38 Wouldn't it be possible to make the bots "bounce back up" automatically?... 20:29:50 sykopomp` [~user@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has joined #lisp 20:30:03 <|3b|> not without someone actually doing that work 20:30:53 chegibari [~chegibari@151.59.15.167] has joined #lisp 20:31:28 tomaw_ [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #lisp 20:31:37 I'm trying to get a random permutation of given list, but my code gets into infinite loop, can anyone help me: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/401295/ 20:31:41 Hello. Does anybody know qi or a qi channel? 20:32:14 -!- tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has quit [Ping timeout: 612 seconds] 20:32:41 Qi has a mailing list, as far as I know. 20:32:58 <|3b|> bsod1: when is that loop supposed to terminate? 20:32:58 bsod1: (e (nth (random (length list)) list) should be (e (nth (random (length list)) (cdr list)) I think. 20:33:28 |3b|: when list is empty 20:33:42 *|3b|* doesn't think (nth (random (length list))) belongs in the same sentence as 'should' :p 20:33:49 <|3b|> bsod1: when is the list empty? 20:34:14 ok, no IRC channel. If anybody is interested I just opened a #Qi channel on freenode 20:34:15 <|3b|> actually, nevermind, i was misreading... 20:34:23 |3b|: in every iteration, I'm removing one element from list, so after (length list) iteration it should be empty 20:34:25 That will teach me to try to code "in mid-air" without using the REPL... 20:34:28 <|3b|> are you sure REMOVE works on whatever elements you have in the list? 20:34:44 <_6502_> also it's (push e r), not the opposite 20:34:45 -!- sykopomp` [~user@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:34:45 -!- sykopomp [~user@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:35:15 sykopomp [~user@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:30 -!- tomaw_ is now known as tomaw 20:35:30 |3b|: yes 20:35:51 *_6502_* thinks that if so many tend to swap push arguments then indeed it's a bug in push 20:35:55 |3b|: (remove 3 '(1 2 3)) -> (1 2) 20:36:02 My Qi question is so basic that (I checked on the clisp interpreter) it's also a lisp question. How do I force the evaluation of (/ 1 3) to 0.333333? 20:36:17 <|3b|> bsod1: well, working on the repl isn't a guarantee of conformance :p 20:36:18 _6502_: thanks :) 20:36:25 <|3b|> (but if it is integers, it should be OK) 20:36:27 chegibari: (float 1 3) 20:36:43 ah ok 20:36:49 Or (float (/ 1 3)) ... 20:36:58 |3b|: so, what's wrong with my code= 20:37:06 ?* 20:37:23 Hexstream, yes "casting" to float did the job. Thanks! 20:38:00 -!- museun [~what@c-98-252-140-73.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:38:22 <|3b|> well, first is the use of DO :p 20:38:43 |3b|: what should I use instead of DO? 20:39:10 *|3b|* usually uses LOOP, but in this case alexandria:shuffle sounds appropriate 20:39:32 <|3b|> looking at the docs for DO, you are removing the same element from the list every time 20:40:46 <|3b|> and the PUSH args are backwards as _6502_ mentioned, so sort of surprising it even finishes one iteration 20:42:41 |3b|: ok, I moved (setf list...) part to &body part, but still infinite loop 20:43:05 it looks like e doesn't change after iterations 20:43:36 <|3b|> right, first clause in the DO variable binding is just initialization 20:43:40 but why? (do ((i 1 (setf i (1+ i))))...) works, but why this code doesn't work 20:43:57 <_6502_> bsod1: do form variables require (variable initial-value next-value) ... you are doing (do ((e (nth ...) (setf...) , you should repeat the nth element extraction part instead 20:44:34 <_6502_> you should set e to (nth ... ) at EVERY iteration, not just at initialization 20:44:45 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-105-25.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:44:54 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@218.235.8.175] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:47:50 euphidime [u178@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rhkmiigzbmfpaxxo] has joined #lisp 20:49:23 Hexstream, except that in Qi there is no (float) function so you just have to throw some float literal (like 1.0 or 3.0) here or there 20:50:09 chegibari: #lisp is mostly a Common Lisp channel... 20:50:44 -!- jsoft_ [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:54:40 -!- seangrove [~user@c-69-181-41-116.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:55:06 -!- zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:55:59 zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 20:57:18 agumonkey [~noob@141.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:38 -!- agumonkey [~noob@141.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:02:34 -!- waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-4d049e67.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: WTF? leaving!] 21:02:44 waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-4d049e67.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:47 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has quit [Quit: good night] 21:05:27 -!- bsod1 [~sinan@31.141.97.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:05:39 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:06:28 zepp` [~sokolov.p@109.172.15.9] has joined #lisp 21:06:43 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 21:09:46 Hello. Does someone know how to setup a git repository for a project on common-lisp.net? (I have found nothing to read about this). 21:11:17 centipedefarmer [~nothingHa@173-29-195-221.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 21:12:12 pnq [~nick@AC8134D0.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 21:12:53 jsoft_ [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 21:14:06 hocwp: why would you want to? 21:14:47 ... 21:15:21 am I an idiot and did I just figure out that, given hunchentoot's default approach to turning requests over to functions, ajax is in fact already built-in? o_O 21:15:23 Xach: Because actually I use both svn on common-lisp.net and git on repo.or.cz. I'd like to use only git coupled with the comon-lisp.net trac. (if this is possible). 21:15:32 ah 21:15:47 *|3b|* seems to remember them mentioning installing gitolite, so you might just need to clone a repo from the right URL 21:16:14 hocwp: mail to clo-devel@common-lisp.net might put you in touch with someone that can help, or maybe ehu can 21:16:22 <|3b|> maybe try ssh git@common-lisp.net or ssh gitolite@common-lisp.net and see if either lists repos you have access to? 21:16:59 I'm planning to install gitolite, but it's not configured yet 21:17:05 Xach, |3b|: thanks, I'll try that. 21:17:08 <|3b|> ah, never mind then :) 21:17:22 <|3b|> hocwp: won't work yet :( 21:18:03 *|3b|* just installed gitolite on my server for my private repos, very convenient to just use git clone to create repos 21:18:15 |3b|: yes, and I have no access with ssh git@common-lisp.net. I'll try the malling list. 21:18:17 <|3b|> or push or whatever 21:19:04 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 21:19:25 <|3b|> does take a bit to figure out the config though 21:20:49 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-156.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:23:47 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-157-217.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:35 -!- zepp` [~sokolov.p@109.172.15.9] has quit [Quit: ZZZzzzzZzzzzZz] 21:25:40 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-240-65.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:27:49 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.139.153] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:28:33 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 21:29:26 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:30:17 vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 21:30:25 -!- vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has quit [Client Quit] 21:30:57 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-157-217.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:33:14 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 21:33:17 -!- sykopomp [~user@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:33:17 sykopomp [~user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 21:35:40 -!- jsoft_ [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:36:05 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-178-201-97.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:34 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.198.49] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 21:37:10 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-211-115.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:37:15 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.101.216] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:38:43 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-165-123.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:42:46 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:43:28 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-52-14.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:54 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-17-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:44 cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.101.216] has joined #lisp 21:46:53 -!- basho- [~basho-@dslb-188-108-014-138.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:47:19 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-141-220.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 21:51:55 -!- landr [~lambda@78-21-53-190.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:55:51 sacho [~sacho@95-42-105-25.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 21:57:52 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:58:07 Joreji_ [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:58:15 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178-223-141-220.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:04:34 Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.209.228] has joined #lisp 22:05:59 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 22:07:48 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-174-40.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:08:30 francogrex [~user@109.130.139.153] has joined #lisp 22:11:09 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.209.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:14:42 macrocat [~marmalade@142.177.93.13] has joined #lisp 22:18:08 -!- xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:18:09 Hi, I am trying to pipe some data output to standard output to be captured by sbcl: http://francoatgrex.tripod.com (sorry for tripod by lisppaste was out for me) 22:18:22 xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:18:24 naiv [~quassel@ARennes-652-1-46-66.w86-214.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:18:37 but obviously not ok hence the question, what am I doing wrong? 22:18:49 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-174-40.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:22:10 *|3b|* thought run-program returned an object containing the stream, not the stream directly 22:22:49 -!- hocwp [~user@AAmiens-552-1-134-27.w86-215.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 22:26:18 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:26:19 rednum [~bizon@fortes3.fortes.com.pl] has joined #lisp 22:27:14 Simucal [~Simucal@24-107-2-126.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:27:30 Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.209.228] has joined #lisp 22:28:05 |3b|: and then how to extract the info? 22:28:32 -!- workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:29:15 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.101.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:29:40 workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 22:30:11 *|3b|* types sbcl run-program stream into google, gets a link to sbcl manual, skims a bit, finds an accessor sb-ext:process-output... scrolls up a bit, sees :output :stream fills the process-output slot, guesses that would the the way to extract it 22:30:42 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:33:17 -!- lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:33:32 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:33:49 Joreji_ [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:37:55 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-92.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:40:21 lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:37 cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.101.216] has joined #lisp 22:43:22 ok it's a windows things and sbcl... doesn't work on it, (used process-output) 22:44:50 <|3b|> yeah, windows might make things more difficult 22:45:46 drwho [~drwho@c-69-242-33-209.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:41 -!- beach` is now known as beach 22:46:54 -!- Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:47:09 vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 22:47:16 Good morning everyone! 22:47:43 <_6502_> 1am... goodnight everyone 22:47:56 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-92.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:48:09 ... it's past midnight, so it's morning 22:49:59 by that definition, sure. 22:50:46 ^_^ 22:51:21 -!- waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-4d049e67.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: WTF? leaving!] 22:51:27 waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-4d049e67.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:34 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:51:35 I'm reminded of the Jack Handey joke: " 22:51:35 I'm reminded of the Jack Handey joke: "Isn't it funny how we'll look out the window at the moon, and then 22:51:38 we notice it's not the moon but a streetlight? Also what's funny 22:51:39 is how we do this every night." 22:51:39 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:51:48 sorry for the formatting... 22:52:06 I'm trying to figure out why my clozurecl repl keeps hanging. 22:53:06 I'll be repling along and then I'll ask it to do, say, (+ 2 2); and it'll hang. 22:53:32 and I'll hit C-c, and get a restart menu. I'll abort, and it'll go right back to hanging. 22:54:01 and I'll enter (quit) ... and it'll hang. 22:54:03 penryu: with slime or without? 22:54:18 penryu: when you interrupt, what does the backtrace show? 22:54:19 Xach: both. :-/ it started in slime so I tested from shell. 22:55:17 <|3b|> penryu: are you trying to terminate statements with ; ? 22:55:31 no... should I? 22:55:46 <|3b|> no, just making sure that wasn't what you meant by (+ 2 2); 22:55:57 this is my first cl, coming from scheme, so there might be something I'm doing. 22:56:11 <|3b|> (CL doesn't have statements, and ; is comment character) 22:56:13 -!- rdd [~user@c83-250-52-16.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:56:20 I already hit the (apply + LIST) issue :) 22:56:40 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.209.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:57:16 what do you mean by "statements"? 22:57:41 I thought expressions and statements were synonymous in lisp languages in general? 22:58:02 <|3b|> some languages distinguish 'statements' and 'expressions', and tend to use ; to separate/terminate statements 22:58:24 oh. yeah. no, I knew ; is the comment char. thanks. 22:58:29 <|3b|> so i wanted to make sure you weren't coming from that tradition... if you use scheme, it isn't a problem 22:58:59 I'm not fluent in scheme, but I haven't had these sorts of surprises from scheme yet. 22:59:10 I'm curious if it's not specific to ccl 22:59:20 like, a thread was hanging somewhere 22:59:29 I think it's pretty fair to say that if you typed (+ 2 2) and pressed return, and it hung, then something is wrong. :-) 22:59:38 *|3b|* doesn't see any obvious way to get the ccl repl stuck with simple things 23:00:10 I also suspect there's a problem with the ccl snapshot or build 23:00:18 it's happened in at least 3 repl sessions, but I can't reliably reproduce it 23:00:29 penryu: What is the "(apply + LIST) issue"? 23:00:31 as you confirmed it also occurred outside of slime in the ccl repl 23:00:40 penryu: any particular reason you chose ccl? 23:00:59 beach: it yields an error, expecting me to use #'+ instead of bare + 23:01:19 '+ works too. 23:01:20 loke: not really; I just polled a few people and that came up. 23:01:25 penryu: I don't see why you call that "the (apply + LIST) issue". 23:01:39 <|3b|> beach: informality? 23:01:54 penryu: It is not an issue, and it is not specific to using apply. 23:01:55 *|3b|* understood it 23:01:56 beach: you're probably right; it's a syntax issue. 23:02:12 ehu: '+ does something different ghouth. If he wants to replicate the Scheme behaviour, he should use #'+ 23:02:25 beach: but you probably knew the "issue" I was talking about; "Oh look! silly schemer doesn't know to quote funcs in CL!" 23:02:37 |3b|: That happens to me all the time: everyone else understands, and I have no clue. 23:03:00 loke: doesn't it call the function function in +'s function slot? 23:03:24 antoni` [~user@212.pool85-53-5.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 23:03:39 ehu: Yes, but it calls the function that is declared at the point of executing the code. With #'+ you retrieve the function at the point of compiling. 23:03:55 ehu: It only makes a difference if you redefine the function. 23:04:07 *|3b|* would have said the important difference was lexical vs global 23:04:16 (at least, that's the way I understand it. I may be wrong, I'm not a CL expert either :-) ) 23:04:18 isn't there a performance hit if you repeatedly query the '+ at runtime? 23:04:25 -!- workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:04:46 <|3b|> + in scheme would the the lexical binding of +, so #'+ would be closer (aside from not being able to lexically bind #'cl:+) 23:05:12 |3b|: flet? 23:05:27 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.139.153] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:05:30 <|3b|> ehu: of a function in CL: ? 23:05:37 no ide. 23:05:38 workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 23:05:39 idea. 23:05:41 not? 23:05:46 ehu: Can not! 23:05:47 <|3b|> ehu: undefined if i remember correctly 23:05:55 ok. 23:05:55 penryu: a small one, but it'd be a pretty rare case if you can even measure that. What I'm saying is that the choice between '+ and #'+ is not one of performance. 23:06:02 -!- antoni [~user@212.pool85-53-5.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:06:03 beach: thanks 23:06:06 loke: ok. thanks. 23:06:21 <|3b|> (to avoid hygiene problems of CL macros that might use it for one thing) 23:06:55 what might be a better first-CL for me to learn on? 23:07:06 <|3b|> ccl should be a reasonable choice 23:07:19 <|3b|> sbcl is another (aside from possibly on windows) 23:09:24 -!- z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:10:00 aoh_ [~aki@85.23.168.115] has joined #lisp 23:10:00 -!- aoh [~aki@85.23.168.115] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:12:02 statonjr [~statonjr@64.1.210.2.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:52 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:12:58 no sbcl love on windows? 23:13:20 <|3b|> it doesn't work as well yet on windows as it does on other platforms 23:13:22 penryu: it's not as finished as sbcl elsewhere. ccl is better supported on windows. 23:13:22 oh. guess not. esp. not 64-bit. 23:13:46 -!- glidesurfer [~glidesurf@2002:4fcd:c95d:0:230:5ff:fe37:7a8d] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:13:57 s'ok. Windows isn't the target platform. nor is it my dev platform. 23:14:20 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@64.1.210.2.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:15:02 penryu: not enough people who are both interested and can work on it 23:15:06 SBCL definitely has the best warnings and error reporting of all the lisps 23:15:18 so it may be a good choice for a beginner 23:15:33 good point. 23:15:42 also, third-party libraries work very well on it. 23:15:48 and it works with quicklisp. sweet. 23:15:51 hmm, SLIME people: what happened to #'define-cl-indent? 23:16:08 (i.e. least amounts of surprises when trying to use them) 23:16:16 it's there in 20110110 checkout, but not in 20110522 23:16:30 indeed. looking at trying usocket. 23:17:20 -!- xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:18:50 xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:40 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-149-154.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:21:26 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:21:59 Well, time for me to go to the office. 23:22:07 -!- rednum [~bizon@fortes3.fortes.com.pl] has quit [Quit: exit] 23:24:27 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-135-132.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:01 workthrick: check the slime-devel mailing list archives, there were recent changes (http://lists.common-lisp.net/pipermail/slime-devel/) 23:25:14 yeah, I just found that 23:25:24 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.228.40.23] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:25:40 they're rather sweeping and happy about not having any backwards compatibility whatsoever 23:25:41 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-127-195.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:25:42 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 23:26:19 glidesurfer [~glidesurf@2002:4fcd:c86a:0:230:5ff:fe37:7a8d] has joined #lisp 23:27:14 but fortunately the newer syntax is apparently expressive enough to support what I was doing easily 23:30:11 Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.209.228] has joined #lisp 23:33:01 -!- centipedefarmer [~nothingHa@173-29-195-221.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:34:54 -!- xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:35:23 xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:22 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-243-196.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 23:40:39 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:43:15 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-156.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:46 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:45:08 -!- xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:45:39 -!- antoni` [~user@212.pool85-53-5.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:46:00 antoni` [~user@212.pool85-53-5.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 23:46:10 wow. sbcl errors are pretty verbose. 23:47:35 statonjr [~statonjr@64.1.210.2.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:39 guther [guther@newshell1.bshellz.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:17 -!- glidesurfer [~glidesurf@2002:4fcd:c86a:0:230:5ff:fe37:7a8d] has quit [Quit: Bye.] 23:51:19 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483D038.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:51:45 -!- guther [guther@newshell1.bshellz.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:52:45 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 23:53:01 guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-qzzfgvcjwxnooujk] has joined #lisp 23:53:50 -!- guther is now known as guther_ 23:53:59 -!- guther_ is now known as guther 23:54:34 Yet sometimes not verbose enough. 23:55:00 HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:56:58 They're probably always verbose enough. Sometimes not illuminating enough, however. 23:57:04 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:57:08 -!- antoni` [~user@212.pool85-53-5.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:57:35 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.209.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 23:57:44 -!- super__ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:58:43 Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.209.228] has joined #lisp 23:59:33 -!- foocraft [~ewanas@78.101.153.142] has quit [Quit: Leaving]