00:01:08 -!- atomx [~user@86.35.150.23] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:02:48 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:07:25 -!- Soulman [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 00:09:46 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:10:37 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:10:58 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 00:17:35 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-174-096-202-029.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: statonjr] 00:18:38 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.1.251] has joined #lisp 00:19:44 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.82.92.136] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 00:21:19 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-174-096-202-029.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:21:23 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl21-92-136.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 00:24:14 chp [~chp@2001:da8:a000:155:5eff:35ff:fe0c:c3ef] has joined #lisp 00:28:08 is there a predicate which does something like (first (sort seq #'> :key #'blah)) ? 00:28:38 MoALTz_ [~no@92.18.20.184] has joined #lisp 00:28:44 scode_ [~scode@94.75.242.212] has joined #lisp 00:28:54 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:29:10 -!- urandom_ [~user@p548A4B01.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:29:18 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:29:30 -!- eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:29:34 -!- housel [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:29:35 urandom_ [~user@p548A4B01.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:55 housel [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 00:30:10 -!- scode [~scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:30:16 tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-198-44.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:30:42 madnificent: How about (reduce #'max seq :key #'blah)? 00:30:47 -!- hohum [~dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:30:47 -!- krappie__ [~brain@mx.skitzo.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:30:47 _krappie_ [~brain@mx.skitzo.org] has joined #lisp 00:31:01 hohum [~dcorbe@8.17.5.13] has joined #lisp 00:31:03 -!- lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:31:07 -!- tsuru [~charlie@adsl-74-179-198-44.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:31:11 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:31:12 Oh, no wait, that returns the key doesn't it. 00:31:20 -!- sshirokov [~sshirokov@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:31:41 -!- ramus [~ramus@adsl-99-118-189-134.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:31:45 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.18.20.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:31:56 sshirokov [~sshirokov@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has joined #lisp 00:32:00 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:32:04 madnificent: I don't think there is anything. Loop over seq and keep the maximum element. 00:32:09 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 00:32:44 beach: yaeh, that's not pretty either, (first (sort ...)) is clearer then 00:32:58 ramus [~ramus@adsl-99-118-189-134.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:14 I'm a bit surprised that common lisp doesn't include it, it seems so common 00:33:16 cl-utils:extremum? 00:33:18 madnificent: But it is significantly slower, and it has side effects to the sequence. 00:34:21 beach: point taken 00:34:26 Xach: not a bad idea, I think 00:34:32 *madnificent* checks out cl-utils 00:35:35 longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has joined #lisp 00:36:09 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.200.190] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 00:36:40 Xach: that's not included in quicklisp? 00:37:01 basho____ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-235-234.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:37:42 It might be called cl-utilities. 00:38:05 *Xach* hasn't gotten universe-wide symbol apropos yet 00:40:41 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-238-186.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:42:21 nice, it also includes split-sequence. Hope it works the same way 00:42:28 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441148.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:42:29 beach: an annotatable hyperspec would be really cool! Aside from the obv. time/money/resource contraints preventing something like a hyperspec equivalent of the annotatable CLIM II spec, what would be the obstacles (license wise) for something like that for the Hspec?? 00:43:52 mon_key: it's been tossed in the past and it's been denied due to license reasons iirc 00:43:58 IOW at what point might the user annotations supersede some of the dubious license constraints around the Hspec? 00:44:28 the hyperspec is under a pretty irritating license. 00:45:43 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:56 disregarding whether the license is actually valid would it violate its terms for users to annotate their own copy an publish those annotations to a shared reopository e.g. github?? 00:46:36 probably. 00:46:44 that would be a derivative work, which is explicitly disallowed 00:46:50 "Permission to make modified copies is expressly NOT granted." 00:47:06 its not disallowed to comment on something... 00:47:37 If you want to do it, just do it 00:47:41 nobody is going to sue you over it 00:48:02 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:48:20 madnificent: I am not a lawyer, but I would think that a website that parallels the URLs of each page of the HyperSpec would not violate any copyright. All that is required then is a tools that accesses the annotations at the same time as the page itself. 00:48:49 foom: :) I've made some attempts parsing the hspec output from w3m using emacs' text-properities to identify nodes. 00:49:26 wait what? why would you parse hspec output from w3m? 00:49:36 it's html, use an html parser if you want to parse it? 00:49:50 -!- mippymoe89 [~mippymoe8@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:50:08 foom: b/c the text-properties were already there and the intendend use case was from withing Emacs... 00:51:09 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441148.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:51:33 and b/c it would be very difficult for the license lawyers to make the case that CL users shouldn't use Emacs to read the spec :) 00:52:22 shrug. I'd do the thing first and worry about technical workarounds for crappy licenses if anyone complains. 00:53:00 akimbo [~akimbo@cpe-024-163-093-204.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:53:07 maybe if your thing is awesome enough, they'd change the license. :) 00:57:19 aren't the texi sources available as well? 00:57:24 Haven't touched the parser since circa Dec 2009 but its here if anyones interested: https://github.com/mon-key/mon-emacs/blob/master/emacs-load-files/naf-mode/mon-doc-help-CL.el 00:57:56 pkhuong: not the texi but there is a conversion to texi :) 00:59:12 cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.100.54] has joined #lisp 01:02:45 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 01:03:00 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 01:04:44 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:06:47 fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:38 beach: so in that understanding, it would be allowed to show the official page and separately show annotations. That's not deriving from the work, correct? 01:10:03 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:10:55 beach: let me state it more obvious. Take http://www.php.net/manual/en/language.expressions.php and look at where the comments start. Say that there's a site containing everything but the annotations, then would this site be considered a derivative work? 01:11:27 *madnificent* suspects that lawyers may have a different meaning of derivative versus the intention of those that wrote the CLHS 01:11:58 mon_key: fwiw: I support you, it would help the community if annotations would be possible 01:12:01 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 01:14:12 madnificent: foom: Another reason for using the HyperSpec is that it _isn't_ the ANSI spec but a "derivative" of... 01:16:09 mon_key: IANAL, and I do not know the constraints of it. I'm asking questions, not providing answers :) 01:16:52 Yes, me as well. 01:17:35 * stupid RSI combined with stupid Raynaud's makes me unhappy 01:17:50 madnificent: I don't know, and I don't know exactly what you mean. I think a site that would refer simultaneously to a Common Lisp HyperSpec page and an annotation page would be a derivative work, so that would not be allowed, but a site that contains a mirror structure with annotations only would not. 01:19:37 -!- waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d8711ff.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: WTF? leaving!] 01:19:44 beach: but the mirror structure would not be integrated... 01:20:04 right, it would be separate. 01:20:31 The neat thing about Jesper Harders dpans2texi conversion is that it is nearly identical to the Hyperspec but presumably without the Hspec 01:20:35 madnificent: Each user would have to put together a local site with the same structure as the Common Lisp HyperSpec in which each page refers simultaneously to a Common Lisp HyperSpec page and a web-wide annotation page. 01:20:42 license constraints. 01:20:53 I think that with derivative, they meant: you can't take parts of this, change it, mangle it back together and call it something else... 01:20:56 -!- Atomsk is now known as ace4016 01:22:03 lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:21 mon_key: if it doesn't have the license constraints then that would solve the biggest issue so far 01:22:26 Also, because the dpans2texi conversion is of documentation which predates and was not AFAIK formally ratified by X3JI3... 01:22:58 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@96.31.242.194] has quit [Quit: quittin' time!] 01:26:23 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483C5B1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:26:34 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:30:23 greping my local copy of dpANS3 for copyright returns one result which is an acknowledment that Guy L. Steele: "Special thanks to Guy L. Steele Jr. and Digital Press for producing CLtL and for relaxing copyright restrictions enough to make it possible for that document's text to provide an early basis of this work." 01:33:51 redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:55 mon_key: do you have an actual license? without a license you're not really allowed to do anything with a text (at least that's what I remember from a course on European ICT rights) 01:36:36 madnificent: I do not have a license for the non-normative draft revision 3 of what was to later become the ANSI specification for Common Lisp. 01:37:04 It was never published... how could i? 01:38:10 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.100.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:42:40 mon_key: without a license you're not allowed to redistribute 01:42:44 iirc 01:43:07 without a document there can be no license... 01:43:33 FWIW I do remember reading something from (I believe Pitman) about X3 being pissed off because they never really recieved a hardcopy of the spec. Which was technically fine b/c they did recieve a specification! 01:44:02 wislin [~user@118.122.165.4] has joined #lisp 01:45:49 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 01:50:01 mon_key: I reccon you're not really allowed to do anything with it by law. 'No license' doesn't equal 'allowed to use it' 01:50:54 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@adsl-184-32-11-41.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 01:50:55 Atomsk [ace4016@adsl-184-32-11-41.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:32 *Fare* now can produce executables with xcvb w/o cl-launch. At least on ccl clisp sbcl lispworks 01:52:07 at least if you don't require it to handle .so's. 01:52:41 madnificent: No doubt the spirit/intent of my doing would not be in keeping with a license were one to exist. My assertion/query is "was there ever an actually copyright placed on the _specification_" -- Is not the copyright only on the document that ANSI provides? 01:53:18 http://web.archive.org/web/20071031055357/http://wiki.alu.org/Project_FreeSpec 01:55:07 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:55:08 wubo [~user@c-68-55-91-8.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:11 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:55:32 mon_key, what do you care? 01:56:13 want to do a new round of specification? 01:56:36 mon_key: if you haven't written it yourself, and it doesn't include a license, then --iirc-- you can only read it (not copy it, not annotate it, not run it as an application, just read it) 01:56:44 Fare: annotate the spec 01:56:49 Fare: Nooooooo. It bothers me that the document was ever allowed to be privatized. 01:57:01 was it? 01:57:06 who's gonna sue you? 01:57:15 Fare: could you tell me again what problem xcvb will solve for me? 01:57:47 Demosthenes [~demo@h-68-166-140-122.nycmny83.static.covad.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:46 Fare: for the record: I did search for the description, but it's vague for me 01:59:09 replace asdf, cl-launch, buildapp, etc. 01:59:11 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:59:14 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 01:59:31 Fare: No one. Nor is anyone gonna allow publication of a non-normative spec. without some fuss. I can imagine Allegro/Lispworks being potentially miffed if some group were to start annotating the spec in a direction which was not in keeping with their interpretation of the formal spec. 02:01:36 Who can stop the informal publication of a non-normative spec? 02:01:45 Fare: the description seems to indicate that it's there to solve a need for big systems. But I can't pinpoint for what exactly. Will it help me distributy compiled code? (eg: freeing me from sharing source code) Will it help me manage namespace issues? I can't imagine scenarios in which I'd say "oh yeah, in situation X, I should be using xcvb" 02:01:59 Zhivago: lawyers 02:02:12 Just change the name. 02:02:17 You can call it DL instead of CL. 02:02:26 Zhivago: it'd be a derivative 02:02:35 Zhivago: in the same way that remixing a song, is a derivative work 02:02:54 Zhivago: a quick cease and desist might cause whomever hosts the non-thing some headaches. 02:03:01 it will help you distribute compiled executables. 02:03:28 Fare: only full executables? or can it combine compiled libraries as well? 02:03:33 namespace issues: not really a help there, at least for now, except inasmuch as it will let you compile things in a deterministic way 02:04:01 currently, it doesn't manage compiled libraries better than asdf. 02:04:09 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@h-68-166-140-122.nycmny83.static.covad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:04:18 for the record, it sounds interesting and usable. I don't know how it integrates with asdf and all that. But still, I know I should probably look into it more in-depth. I need to find the right excuse to do so. 02:04:26 but at least, there's a plan and a way out. 02:04:39 it does integrate perfectly with asdf. 02:04:49 I gotta make a new release real soon now... 02:06:28 Fare: thanks for these lines of info! If you could get a blog post about it on plo from time to time, then I'm sure interest will rise over time. 02:06:53 plo ? 02:06:58 Fare: planet.lisp.org 02:09:24 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:09:30 zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 02:09:34 I'll probably make an announce next week, after I complete the ECL backend. 02:10:14 Fare: I didn't dare to ask for that support... but that would've been my second question :) 02:10:42 I already support ECL as long as you don't try to dump an image 02:11:00 supporting ECL while dumping an image will be... interesting. 02:11:36 Well, ECL has a system builder -- so providing your image is dumped just after loading everything, it should be ok. 02:11:47 the whole compile cycle for ECL is -imho- a mess. It's not fun to do. If xcvb could do it automatically, then that would make it a lot more fun. 02:12:08 Zhivago, it's clearly possible. But very different from how it's done in other Lisps. 02:12:20 and so XCVB has to be tinkered in new, interesting ways. 02:12:48 madnificent: The other document that is of interest w/r/t ANSI is this: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/CL/x3j13-sd-05.html 02:13:18 It mentions nothing about the x3j13 having as part of its mandate the goal of producing a _document_ :) 02:14:01 *Fare* pushes ASDF 2.015.10 02:16:01 mon_key: why does that matter? (it would've been interesting for my talk on the history of lisp) 02:16:52 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl21-92-136.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 02:17:06 gko [~gko@111.81.155.197] has joined #lisp 02:20:38 mon_key, maybe you wanna join the R7RS guys instead? 02:22:40 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-176-90.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:01 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 02:28:27 -!- Atomsk is now known as atomsk 02:29:00 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:29:09 Fare: hey, no cursing! 02:29:43 Fare: also, I think mon_key simply wants to add annotations as a general help towards other users that are reading the same section. I may be wrong though, but that's how I interpreted it. 02:29:59 sure 02:30:10 so take the unadulterated document 02:30:17 take unadulterated adulterations 02:30:30 distribute the two semi-separately 02:31:32 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 02:32:02 -!- dmiles_afk [dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:32:05 jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has joined #lisp 02:41:14 qizwiz [~user@ppp-70-245-65-87.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:42:31 lifeng [~lifeng@155.69.43.14] has joined #lisp 02:55:24 -!- urandom_ [~user@p548A4B01.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:56:47 nannto [~nanto@pee5b70.tokyff01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:57:29 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-2-151.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 02:58:15 -!- qizwiz [~user@ppp-70-245-65-87.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:58:48 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-2-151.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Client Quit] 02:59:49 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-2-151.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 03:00:00 ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:16 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-167-21.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 03:01:09 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-2-151.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Client Quit] 03:01:43 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has joined #lisp 03:04:19 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-174-096-202-029.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: statonjr] 03:04:37 coderogue [~chatzilla@124.13.33.190] has joined #lisp 03:05:49 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-2-151.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 03:05:58 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-2-151.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:06:29 -!- gko [~gko@111.81.155.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:06:49 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-2-151.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 03:07:13 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-2-151.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Client Quit] 03:07:17 gko [~gko@111.81.87.187] has joined #lisp 03:10:07 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-2-151.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 03:11:54 enthymeme [~kraken@76.91.206.81] has joined #lisp 03:12:57 -!- longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:16:16 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@155.69.43.14] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:20:00 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-2-151.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has left #lisp 03:23:13 -!- zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:23:28 -!- Fare [~Fare@63.115.78.49] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:23:50 lifeng [~lifeng@155.69.43.14] has joined #lisp 03:25:16 -!- coderogue [~chatzilla@124.13.33.190] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027]] 03:26:27 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@155.69.43.14] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:27:48 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-167-21.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:30:02 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:33:17 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:34 dmiles_afk [dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:48 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-bqtpocpsfwlmnqvz] has joined #lisp 03:36:49 seangrove [~user@c-69-181-41-116.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:45 -!- ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:41:40 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:44:51 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 03:55:08 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 03:59:01 -!- qlife [~qlife@alumni.cs.nctu.edu.tw] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:59:08 qlife [~qlife@alumni.cs.nctu.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 04:00:46 lisp_forth [7a60ccf7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.122.96.204.247] has joined #lisp 04:01:11 hello, everyone, long time not chat 04:01:53 Hello. 04:02:06 what are you doing these days 04:02:11 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.121.74] has joined #lisp 04:02:12 Working. 04:02:21 I find a new job, work for a italia boss 04:02:38 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:02:41 That's nice. 04:02:49 here is somebody form italia? 04:09:23 hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441148.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 04:11:08 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441148.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:11:09 -!- hugod_ is now known as hugod 04:14:18 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-167-21.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 04:16:46 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:20:05 Here was the issue with subseq and circular lists I had before I got disconnected last night: http://i.imgur.com/3vBpc.png 04:21:20 Quad: It must be going to some trouble to do that. 04:22:32 It stays at 50 (100%) cpu usage until I kill it. I wonder why. 04:27:37 Quadrescence: this is a bug in the implementation. 04:28:11 Quadrescence: clhs clearly says that the implementation of subseq "Should be prepared to signal an error of type type-error if sequence is not a proper sequence.". 04:29:12 if you read the code, it is trying to find the length of the sequence. 04:29:35 http://www.google.com/codesearch/p?hl=en#jN3eq_L5bmc/clisp-2.33.2/src/sequence.d&q=SUBSEQ&exact_package=ftp://ftp.usa.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD/distfiles//clisp-2.33.2.tar.bz2&d=2 04:31:38 It could use list-length. clhs requirement to be prepared to signal an error when it's not a proper list would nudge the implementation toward list-length instead of length. 04:32:10 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:32:12 list-length doesn't handle general sequences. 04:32:15 Quadrescence: in any case, your code is not conforming, so while you may complain to your vendor, they may ignore you. 04:32:49 pinterface: list-length handles proper-lists and circular lists, and should signal an error otherwise: therefore it handles everything. 04:33:06 (ie. it is specified to terminate on all input). 04:33:29 Does CLHS use should where RFCs use must? 04:33:40 No. 04:33:42 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:33:42 Wait, so subseq doesn't have to throw an error? 04:33:54 I already said it: quadrecense code is not conforming, the implementation is conforming. 04:34:01 But it is a bitch. 04:34:07 No, it doesn't have to. 04:34:18 That's CL for you. 04:34:49 Huh. Oh well. 04:35:07 I guess I kind of understand why the Kernel guy was so gung-ho aout handling cyclic lists, now... 04:37:51 pjb pasted "conforming code" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122430 04:37:59 Quadrescence: ^^^ 04:38:27 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:40:01 What does "should be prepared to" mean, then? Nothing precise? 04:43:33 It's an informal specification. 04:43:58 Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:44:02 oh, right. 04:46:10 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:49:54 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-167-21.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:53:48 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: \o/] 04:59:49 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.121.74] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:05:23 -!- gko [~gko@111.81.87.187] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:06:25 gko [~gko@111.81.193.166] has joined #lisp 05:07:15 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 05:11:41 longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has joined #lisp 05:15:58 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-dgxbxfnzkbwnryxx] has joined #lisp 05:17:23 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-154-196.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:19:32 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-abbjhtpkqzirsvyq] has joined #lisp 05:19:34 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-abbjhtpkqzirsvyq] has quit [Changing host] 05:19:34 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:21:07 pjb: The definition of "should be prepared to signal an error" is in 1.4.2. 05:21:25 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA37EC6.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:21:44 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-154-180.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:24:24 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-167-21.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:30:55 nunb [~nundan@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 05:32:05 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 05:35:11 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:36:10 Hi. 05:36:20 Hello wislin. 05:37:26 Are there anyone in here make money from CL? 05:37:29 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-167-21.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:37:42 Hello beach. 05:38:07 wislin: The people working for ITA, Franz, etc., and some of the consultants, yes. Why do you ask? 05:39:36 I find CL job is very few from www. 05:39:43 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 05:40:28 pradeep [~pradeep@120.138.254.243] has joined #lisp 05:40:32 -!- xpf [~xpf@78.31.74.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:41:11 beach. dose ITA mean www.ita.com? 05:41:29 wislin: I would imagine so, yes. 05:41:40 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-228.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:42:06 wislin: So what conclusion do you draw from the fact that there are few jobs? That CL must be bad then, and you should choose something else instead? 05:42:52 Hello 05:43:00 hello nunb 05:43:05 Hello beach 05:43:48 No, I like lisp, and will research it forever. 05:44:26 Justin927 [~justin_ha@CPE0014d13854ec-CM0014e88ee54a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:45:44 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:47:13 -!- Zeiris_ [~Zeiris@S010600a0d1423e73.no.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:47:39 wislin: there are lisp jobs, but don't expect to find them that easily - they fly under the radar of most big places, and even lisp-specific places like lispjobs miss quite many. And well, big amount of commercial lisping is contracting, where buyer doesn't care about language but cares about end product :-) 05:48:27 -!- Justin927 [~justin_ha@CPE0014d13854ec-CM0014e88ee54a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 05:49:38 wislin: there's also very few posting on the web for the job of presidents/king/dictator of countries, however those who have those jobs still earn a lot of money (if not officially). 05:50:12 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-11-41.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 05:51:20 lisp is very good, but why lisp machine are not success ? the truth puzzle me . 05:51:53 wislin: Betamax is very good, but why betamx is it a success? The truth puzzle me. 05:51:54 wislin: truth can be like that 05:52:01 *puzzling, that is 05:52:17 -!- atomsk [ace4016@adsl-184-32-11-41.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:53:34 Actually, betamax was crap. 05:54:07 Betamax failed because it didn't address the needs of users -- like being able to fit a movie onto one tape. 05:54:22 VHS did, so it succeeded. 05:54:39 Zhivago: well, Beta did success in television, though (production et al). 05:54:59 Yeah, but it sucked for the mass market. 05:54:59 and the biggest push behind VHS was availability of porn :) 05:55:11 wislin: this book explains everything, but it's written in French: http://www.amazon.fr/Ainsi-marchait-lhumanit%C3%A9-Jean-Fran%C3%A7ois-Geneste/dp/2756311030/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1306994084&sr=8-3 05:55:22 I don't think that argument actually holds much water. 05:55:47 But being able to fit hollywood movies onto them, is a significant issue for the mass market. 05:55:48 thanks. bjb 05:56:02 The lisp machines failed for similar reasons. 05:56:35 They were aimed at a niche market and when that niche disappeared, so did they. 05:56:59 -!- qlife [~qlife@alumni.cs.nctu.edu.tw] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:57:06 qlife [~qlife@alumni.cs.nctu.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 05:57:38 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 05:57:38 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 05:57:38 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:57:59 pjb: how translate the book name to english? 05:58:22 I do not know any franch. 05:58:30 AFAIK, it is not translated to English. Only a couple of papers inside have been presented in English. 05:58:39 wislin: Learn it. 05:59:05 wislin: "The March of Humanity", probably. 05:59:11 -!- pradeep [~pradeep@120.138.254.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:59:23 thanks. 05:59:56 It's been a long time since French has been the Lingua Franca. :) 06:00:46 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-228.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:01:07 wislin: or you may ask the author a translation: http://visible.me/jean-fran%C3%A7ois_geneste_1660412 06:01:15 Zhivago: your loss. 06:01:45 I'm looking forward to when the Lingua Franca is Mandarin. 06:04:55 z0d [~z0d@artifact.hu] has joined #lisp 06:04:55 -!- z0d [~z0d@artifact.hu] has quit [Changing host] 06:04:55 z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 06:06:45 Dose anyone use KPAX (http://homepage.mac.com/svc/kpax/)? 06:07:31 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 06:09:12 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-bqtpocpsfwlmnqvz] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:09:28 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-178-201-97.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 06:10:49 wislin: I don't think so 06:11:06 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 06:11:58 Lots of succcess useing CL. http://www.franz.com/success/ 06:12:51 nunb: what's your think? 06:12:55 wislin: we tend to write nice libraries and not use them. 06:13:13 wislin: Why are you obsessed by the success, or lack thereof, of CL? 06:13:50 beach: I want to know some story about lisp. 06:14:17 wislin: there's more fun in writing a nice library, than in using it. 06:14:27 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:14:36 wislin: if we were satisfied in using nice libraries, we'd just program in Java. 06:15:11 wislin: Lisp is for crazy people. 06:15:49 wislin: So you shouldn't try to justify it with logic. 06:15:51 wislin: I wondered which country you were from, as a matter of idle curiousity 06:16:56 jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 06:17:01 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-67-199-173.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:17:34 cmm [~cmm@109.67.199.173] has joined #lisp 06:20:46 drdo` [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 06:22:17 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:23:05 I'm interesting in common lisp recently. and there is few people use lisp around me. 06:24:08 That's good. 06:24:30 wislin: check http://cliki.net/ it contains references to all the resources you may need to learn and use CL. 06:25:56 Yes. I check that site frequently. 06:31:50 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-fdtzavomcaixiqsg] has joined #lisp 06:33:39 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:36:02 cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.100.54] has joined #lisp 06:36:18 -!- benny [~benny@i577A2041.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:37:11 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-217-108.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:38:37 -!- cheezus [~Adium@69-196-141-102.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:38:57 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-fdtzavomcaixiqsg] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:42:51 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-fvyhyzykviqhevwq] has joined #lisp 06:49:51 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-11-41.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 06:49:52 Atomsk [ace4016@adsl-184-32-11-41.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 06:50:58 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-fvyhyzykviqhevwq] has left #lisp 06:56:26 ace4016 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[~Crumpet@ool-44c711b3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 11:13:39 hello nikodemus 11:14:12 -!- sharps [~hazel@121-72-240-85.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:15:49 jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.5.146] has joined #lisp 11:17:30 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 11:17:48 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-174-096-202-029.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:18:12 -!- akimbo [~akimbo@cpe-024-163-093-204.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:18:57 hi 11:19:11 -!- gko [~gko@111.81.193.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:19:22 hello Posterdati 11:19:32 I did an .asd file for my little project, how can I load the package? 11:20:11 Posterdati: Load the ASDF file, then do (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :name-of-system) 11:20:34 [though I understand there is asdf:load-system or something like that these days.] 11:20:45 hello beach 11:20:52 lundis [~lundis@gprs-internet-ff26f000-58.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 11:21:19 a5h15h [~a5h15h@59.95.54.59] has joined #lisp 11:22:16 -!- a5h15h [~a5h15h@59.95.54.59] has quit [Changing host] 11:22:16 a5h15h [~a5h15h@unaffiliated/a5h15h] has joined #lisp 11:24:00 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:24:14 afa [u476@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-czyqlkeystfiotqk] has joined #lisp 11:26:01 beach: Bad advice all around. 11:26:14 beach: .asd files should not be loaded with cl:load. 11:26:20 sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:26:35 Xach: oops! Why? 11:26:39 it can be, though 11:29:20 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-oykewcedruhgunsx] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:30:06 -!- sacho [~sacho@46.10.4.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:32:19 beach: asdf's loading process establishes an environment not duplicated by cl:load. 11:32:39 beach: for example, many .asd files contain simply (defsystem ...), with no package setup. 11:32:55 -!- lundis [~lundis@gprs-internet-ff26f000-58.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: Fear not, I will return] 11:33:12 Xach: Hmm, OK. 11:35:32 The easiest thing I know that will work all the time is to add the path to the source registry in some way and use (asdf:load-system "system-name") 11:35:57 sacho [~sacho@46.10.4.19] has joined #lisp 11:36:37 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 11:36:52 i use C-c ~ in slime and then load-system, and i have *d-p-d* in my source registry 11:38:34 Me too. 11:45:41 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:45:44 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-127-014.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:48:26 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:49:26 -!- Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: "Object-oriented design" is an oxymoron] 11:49:54 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:50:07 Posterdati: Listen to stassats and Xach. 11:50:11 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-86-139.smrw.lodz.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:50:41 thanks 11:51:09 fiveop_ [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-102-015.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:51:48 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.162.77] has joined #lisp 11:52:59 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-127-014.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:53:01 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:53:16 and if it's not a one-off project, i use a script called asdf-register which makes a symlink to .asd in the central registry 11:53:55 I scan the ~/src/lisp/ tree for systems and don't use symlinks. 11:54:58 every time find-system is called? 11:56:00 -!- MoALTz_ is now known as MoALTz 11:57:10 No. I reinitialize implicitly when I create a project with quickproject and explicitly if I unpack something in there. 12:01:00 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-169.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 12:02:39 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:05:27 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 12:07:06 -!- fiveop_ [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-102-015.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:10:27 Xach: Do you have a function that scans and adds to the source registry, or do you use the asdf2 facilities for this? 12:12:24 I have (:tree (:home "src/lisp/")) in /home/xach/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/lisp.conf (ugh) 12:13:52 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-102-015.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:32 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 12:22:21 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 12:24:16 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@124-148-182-97.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:24:33 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2B0F6.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:32:23 spradnyesh [~pradyus@180.151.42.42] has joined #lisp 12:32:29 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-86-139.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 12:35:01 ponyo [~user@175.124.94.167] has joined #lisp 12:36:09 _6502_ [5e24f712@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.247.18] has joined #lisp 12:36:55 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@180.151.42.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:36:58 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-86-139.smrw.lodz.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:37:12 <_6502_> Where can I find informations about how to access a shared memory area as an vector of bytes with SBCL? 12:37:53 *_6502_* notes that his english is especially horrible today 12:38:03 _6502_: you can try to do it portably through CFFI (just use the array methods) or use sb-alien, documented in SBCL's info manual 12:38:12 vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 12:38:34 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:39:37 <_6502_> cffi sounds interesting, any step-by-step tutorial around? 12:40:45 <_6502_> ok... googling succeeded... 12:41:36 _6502_: if you are mad enough and can generate some assembly on the fly, you can even subclass C++ classes at runtime with CFFI 12:41:54 doesn't change the fact that such tricks go into HighOctaneNightmareFuel area 12:43:08 <_6502_> I don't want to do any tricks... i just have a shared memory area I want to access from sbcl and I was wondering how that is done 12:43:38 _6502_: CFFI would be the way, or so it seems. Also, write it all down in a nice tutorial and send it to me :) 12:44:09 _6502_: though actually, I should probably just walk through the tutorial and follow it by hand-coding the code in there as well, just to get a feel 12:45:28 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:50:57 <_6502_> ok... first problem; should I load a shared library underlinux to use mmap? which one? 12:51:26 _6502_: mmap is already in sb-posix. 12:51:54 (define-alien-routine "shm_open" integer (name c-string) (oflag integer) (mode integer)) will define shm-open for you. 12:52:49 provided you have unqualified access to sb-alien 12:54:18 -!- kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.237.227] has left #lisp 12:54:26 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:55:20 varjag [~eugene@162.163.9.46.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 12:55:31 <_6502_> xach: thanks... i was hoping in something like that but searching sbcl documentation for mmap didn't find anything 12:58:08 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:59:25 <_6502_> but can I allocate a vector of bytes at a specific address in memory? 12:59:32 yroeht [yroeht@server5.tonbnc.fr] has joined #lisp 13:01:07 I don't know. 13:01:22 armence [~armence@unaffiliated/armence] has joined #lisp 13:02:06 sb-alien:make-alien 13:02:46 ok, i missed "at a specific address" part 13:03:36 sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:04:03 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:04:22 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:04:44 -!- a5h15h [~a5h15h@unaffiliated/a5h15h] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:06:01 stassats`: C-c ~ is undefined for me 13:06:07 is that a new slime feature 13:07:15 -!- jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.5.146] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:11:26 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:11:35 -!- qlife [~qlife@alumni.cs.nctu.edu.tw] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:11:36 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:11:40 qlife [~qlife@alumni.cs.nctu.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 13:11:45 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 13:12:30 cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 13:14:41 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@2620:0:2820:b03:201:4aff:fef3:f0d4] has joined #lisp 13:16:18 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@94.44.107.110] has joined #lisp 13:16:18 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@94.44.107.110] has quit [Changing host] 13:16:18 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:16:39 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:18:08 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:18:09 nikodemus [~nikodemus@82.181.58.25] has joined #lisp 13:18:17 Guthur: no, it's old 13:19:10 Yuzu-_ [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:19:29 homie [~levent.gu@xdsl-78-35-145-59.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:20:17 -!- Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:20:41 -!- sacho [~sacho@46.10.4.19] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:21:31 eh, cl.net is borked again 13:21:57 /dev/xvda3 15G 15G 0 100% /var 13:22:12 -!- hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:22:37 foocraft [~ewanas@86.36.49.200] has joined #lisp 13:23:06 who's subscribed to something where cl.net admins read it, please send something 13:23:32 though if it's on cl.net, i doubt it will arrive 13:24:24 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 13:25:18 ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has joined #lisp 13:25:38 Good morning. 13:26:17 Indian [~Indian@unaffiliated/londonmet050] has joined #lisp 13:26:23 how is the book 13:26:25 land of lisp 13:26:43 whimsical 13:26:54 full of interesting examples. 13:27:04 fun 13:27:39 it's the only CS book I'm aware of that has its own music video. 13:28:05 ok 13:28:07 sounds fun 13:28:31 I came across FORMAT 13:29:49 -!- Yuzu-_ is now known as Yuzuchan 13:31:40 -!- longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:31:51 -!- basho____ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-235-234.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:32:07 longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has joined #lisp 13:32:14 basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-235-234.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:55 -!- tsuru` is now known as tsuru 13:38:13 bsod1 [~osa1@31.141.116.210] has joined #lisp 13:42:06 stassats`: is it in SLIME core or some contrib? 13:42:26 slime-repl 13:42:43 jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.102] has joined #lisp 13:44:16 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:44:26 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 13:46:41 you probably have to establish a keybinding for it. 13:47:09 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 13:47:20 you don't 13:47:39 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 13:47:53 C-c ~ isn't bound to anything on my slime/emacs setup which is pretty vanilla. 13:48:24 Fade: in what buffer did you check? 13:48:25 as i said, it's not gonna work with "vanilla" slime, you need slime-repl 13:48:43 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Client Quit] 13:48:52 well, I've loaded slime-fancy 13:48:58 which iirc includes slime-repl 13:49:06 Xach: in the repl 13:49:09 it does, now, answer Xach's question 13:49:19 Fade: well, that's your problem 13:49:20 Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:49:26 ah, it wants a source buffer. 13:49:29 asked and anwered. :) 13:49:39 zmv [~daniel@201.83.57.6] has joined #lisp 13:51:00 -!- ponyo [~user@175.124.94.167] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:51:11 urandom__ [~user@p548A7A3B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:41 -!- Yuzuchan [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:54:16 sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:46 oh a source buffer, I kind of assumed the REPL 13:55:50 in context, how did you expect it to do anything with regards to .asd from the repl? 13:56:16 I actually thought it did something else 13:56:21 nvm 13:56:56 -!- jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.102] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:57:10 maurizioc [~maurizioc@97.57.241.147] has joined #lisp 13:58:11 jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.102] has joined #lisp 13:58:15 <_6502_> sbcl bug reporting is only by mail? 13:58:23 -!- Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:59:04 _6502_: incorrect. 13:59:34 iori [~iori@110-133-45-54.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:59:39 _6502_: read www.sbcl.org. i pushed to put good bug report info on the front page. 13:59:52 <_6502_> oh, ok...found 14:00:16 ehu: herep 14:01:26 <_6502_> hmmm 14:01:58 _6502_: did you find a bug? 14:02:43 <_6502_> xach: a very minor one (typo in documentation), but reporting is too much annoying so i'll just forget about it... 14:03:14 erm.. 14:03:19 _6502_: you can tell me 14:03:27 <_6502_> xach: email, password then i suppose they will send be an email back to check for the email and then i will forget the password ... bah 14:03:51 _6502_: it seems like you did not read www.sbcl.org, which makes me a bit sad. 14:04:02 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-174-096-202-029.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: statonjr] 14:04:14 <_6502_> stassats: in sb-alien documentation there is a sample C code that says "f.b[7].a;" when it should read "f.b[7]->a;" 14:04:18 Particularly the part that said "no subscription required". 14:04:55 <_6502_> xach: i clicked to report a bug and got to a launchpad login page, asking me for registration 14:05:38 carlocci [~nes@93.37.216.224] has joined #lisp 14:05:50 _6502_: sorry, i don't know c, so i don't believe you 14:06:06 -!- Indian [~Indian@unaffiliated/londonmet050] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:07:25 <_6502_> stassats: you don't know c AND you don't believe me 14:08:13 i don't know what you're talking about now either 14:09:36 _6502_: for the browser challenged --> https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl 14:10:36 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:10:55 <_6502_> fade: are you dumb or you think you are funny? clicking on report a bug i get to a registration page... to send a bug without registration apparently only email is accepted 14:11:07 possibly both 14:11:35 however, you're the one bitching about how difficult it is to report a bug that you noticed in the free software you're using. 14:11:50 fight fight fight! 14:12:07 <_6502_> oh well... seems SBCL likes keeping bugs around 14:12:13 I'll put $2 on Fade for a KO in the third round. 14:12:16 so either STFU and get on with your life, or report the bug. 14:12:44 but what you're doing is both stupid and lazy, so at least I can still be funny. 14:12:50 :) 14:12:51 <_6502_> Fade: i reported the bug to someone that doesn't know C but that doesn't believe it's a bug 14:13:00 *madnificent* puts $10 on Fade, he simple knows much much more and will probably gain more support 14:13:17 i'm not that! 14:13:56 yeah stassats` good but not all that 14:14:13 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:14:37 *_6502_* all of a sudden understands what's the so called "lisper attitude" 14:14:52 alama [~alama@d91-129-28-166.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 14:14:55 oh great, now what's left is to write a blog post about it 14:14:56 xinming [~hyy@122.238.76.38] has joined #lisp 14:14:56 intolerance for bs? 14:15:03 _6502_: nah the attitude is especially for you 14:15:49 -!- maurizioc [~maurizioc@97.57.241.147] has quit [Quit: Bye] 14:16:37 -!- iori [~iori@110-133-45-54.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 14:17:12 redline6561-work [~redline65@cei-gla-cpk2.coxinc.com] has joined #lisp 14:17:58 iori [~iori@110-133-45-54.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:17:58 -!- xinming_ [~hyy@122.238.74.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:18:02 <_6502_> ok... let me recap. I came here asking how can I handle shared memory with sbcl ... and got pointers to documentation; reading the documentation I found what is a documentation bug and wanted to be a good citizen by reporting it 14:18:20 But not such a good citizen that you will send an email. 14:18:29 If that bar is too high, fuck you. 14:18:33 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.167.98.146] has joined #lisp 14:18:52 *Fade* touches his nose and points at Xach 14:18:59 Fade: LoL 14:19:00 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-161-9.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 14:19:12 _6502_: sbcl-bugs mailing list does not require subscription 14:19:26 it exists specifically to facilitate hit-and-run bug reports 14:19:28 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:19:38 <_6502_> xach: i only noted that email was the reporting method, and found it, how to say.... "retro" :-) ... but you said something like "NO... thanks to me you can do it online" 14:19:42 _6502_: so, that's simple 14:20:00 another unsatisfied customer: http://i.imgur.com/2OEvF.jpg 14:20:00 _6502_: Incorrect. 14:20:20 _6502_: you can do it only, but that's launchpad, and that requires registration -- if neither appeals to you, i don't know what else to offer 14:20:58 <_6502_> no you guys have a lot more to offer... like insulting me for example 14:21:04 maybe write the note on a postcard 14:21:19 14:21:24 _6502_: have i insulted you? 14:21:54 http://xkcd.com/386/ 14:22:20 anyhow, I guess we're way offtopic now. 14:22:24 s/only/on the web as well/ # obviously 14:22:53 twbd|op-kot [~willem@91.177.201.191] has joined #lisp 14:23:27 *stassats`* waits for the next hacker-news hit called "the curse of #lisp" 14:25:35 stassats`: its ok, considering how communications such as email and registering on launchpad was out of the question... 14:26:10 ...I think #lisp will be safe for today 14:26:39 <_6502_> i never said email was a problem... i was simply surprised that there was no online form, it turns out that there is a form, that requires email to be used 14:27:18 I have no problem with email being the only mechanism. I always feel a bit tweaked when I have to register to submit a bug, though. 14:27:45 Many of the bugs I tend to want to submit are things I find when first looking at a project, without my actually being involved in any way. 14:28:05 So I can understand your annoyance. 14:28:18 <_6502_> "excuse me sir, seems you have a flat tire" "can you show me your documents before i can consider your notification?" 14:28:44 some kind of contrib that allowed bug reports directly from slime in one step might be useful. 14:28:51 gor[e]_ [~svr@gw2.masterhost.ru] has joined #lisp 14:29:21 <_6502_> "i don't know what a tire is, and i don't believe you" 14:29:27 Fade: quicksomething from Xach should must fix it! 14:29:40 it'd require much stricter adherence to the information provided in asd files, though. 14:29:53 i got this reference, it's about me not committing things i don't understand! 14:29:57 *adherence to some minimal set of 14:30:16 That's true, once you've installed a lisp package with quicklisp, you want to report bugs. So there should be a (ql:bug-report :some-pacakge "ragnagna") and everything else should be automatic. 14:30:23 sorry i disappointed you with my incompetence 14:30:38 'course, we'd also end up with a lot of "didn't read the documentation" chaff. 14:31:04 <_6502_> fade: broken documentation 14:31:05 Fade: also, the next issue will be that people don't want to use emacs/slime 14:31:18 Yep, but at least, we'd have an opportunity to take over the lisp image and retaliate against non-RTFMers. 14:31:23 -!- gor[e] [~svr@gw2.masterhost.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:31:26 :-) 14:31:35 _6502_: that's the kind of one-off that would be easily addressed. 14:31:44 pjb: don't backslide, it's been 5 years! 14:31:49 i'm talking about "bugs" of the form "How do I X?" 14:32:01 lol 14:32:15 Xach: I was only thinking about a mere: (format t "You didn't read the fine manual, please go read ~S" url) 14:32:37 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 14:32:37 *stassats`* points that by the half an hour spent fighting in #lisp, there could be create a dozen of fake emails and sent two dozens of bug reports 14:32:56 _6502_: particularly in this case, as you'd have a patch to attach. 14:33:04 stassats`: hahaha 14:33:22 <_6502_> stassats: I was actually thinking to asking some botnet to flood the mailing list with two million email messages indeed... 14:33:45 yeah, real mature 14:33:58 Nowadays, a million emails are not effective: they get spam filtered. 14:34:04 *ehu* wonders how long people will keep going on with _6502_ 14:34:05 <_6502_> stassats: with the bug report, not with viagra :-) 14:34:28 I remember when we used to talk about common lisp 14:34:32 ehu: oh, you're here, i'll go on with you! /var is 100% full on cl.net 14:34:35 those halcyon days 14:34:48 stassats`: ouch. 14:34:56 I sort of like the bug reporting from slime idea 14:35:01 stassats`: any idea why? 14:35:27 ehu: i tried du, but many directories aren't accessible to me 14:35:34 <_6502_> fade: that would be great, with slime installation requiring registration 14:35:34 hmpf 14:35:38 15G 14:36:19 well, generating/registering a gpg key for the contrib to work seems like a reasonable hurdle. 14:36:39 apache logs 14:37:40 ehu: and what caused it? 14:37:53 stassats`: looking 14:37:56 log level debug 14:38:00 somebody falling asleep on f5? 14:40:38 nuefox [~fox@78.190.143.72] has joined #lisp 14:40:42 -!- nuefox [~fox@78.190.143.72] has left #lisp 14:43:12 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:44:12 stassats`: no. a module was removed, but Apache's config was still referring to it, logging errors on each request. 14:44:40 stassats`: problem resolved. 14:45:21 it could fail somewhat more gracefully 14:45:27 thanks 14:45:32 <_6502_> is (slot my-struct 'x) working even if my-struct is indeed a pointer? Isn't (slot (deref my-struct) 'x) needed instead? 14:45:50 cvs works again 14:46:04 hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:16 *dlowe* hasn't done much with alien types 14:49:15 cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.100.54] has joined #lisp 14:50:27 tritchey [~tritchey@205.233.9.181] has joined #lisp 14:50:59 more people would be familiar with CFFI, at a guess 14:53:07 could a clnet admin please run this: sudo chmod g+w /project/fetter/public_html/darcs/verrazano/_darcs/index 14:53:28 attila_lendvai: done 14:53:47 thanks fe[nl]ix! 14:54:02 <_6502_> guthur: CFFI is where i wanted to start from, but i was suggested by a semi-god to look to sb-alien instead 14:56:16 -!- foocraft [~ewanas@86.36.49.200] has quit [Quit: having karak!] 14:56:56 -!- twbd|op-kot is now known as twbd|etezoeke 14:57:34 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:58:32 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:58:35 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:59:04 homie` [~levent.gu@xdsl-78-35-190-245.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:59:08 -!- alama [~alama@d91-129-28-166.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Quit: alama] 15:00:27 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:03 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:07 -!- homie [~levent.gu@xdsl-78-35-145-59.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:02:24 Yuzu-_ [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:04:40 sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 15:04:42 -!- Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:04:48 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:05:11 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:05:39 ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has joined #lisp 15:05:48 tempire [~tempire@pool-72-91-241-135.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:00 <_6502_> Your message to Sbcl-bugs awaits moderator approval 15:07:33 <_6502_> The reason it is being held: Post by non-member to a members-only list 15:10:11 Gmind [~nevermind@113.190.167.6] has joined #lisp 15:12:23 -!- hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:12:33 markskil2eck [~chris@host81-152-162-95.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:12:36 -!- homie` [~levent.gu@xdsl-78-35-190-245.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:12:46 hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:47 markskil3eck [~chris@host81-152-162-95.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:14:11 -!- markskil1eck [~chris@host86-137-32-74.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:14:12 mission accomplished! 15:14:34 -!- cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:14:50 -!- markskilbeck [~chris@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:17:29 Xach: problems should be resolved. Have they for you too? 15:17:44 Fare [~Fare@206.83.64.178.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:24 6502, that seems like quite a reasonable response to get - I'd be happy with it - you can consider your task of reporting to the right authority to be done 15:18:33 ehu: looks good. 15:19:28 snearch [~snearch@f053013007.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:19:42 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 15:21:52 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:22:50 Xach: thanks for the confirmation. 15:24:21 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-176-90.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Offline] 15:25:41 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-cvopgibekurkwvng] has joined #lisp 15:26:07 symbol___ [~symbol___@c-98-246-145-10.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:17 is there syntax to create a list of integers in a range? 15:26:23 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@apn-94-44-107-110.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 15:26:23 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:26:23 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 15:26:23 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-107-110.vodafone.hu] has quit [Changing host] 15:26:24 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:26:41 symbol___: (loop for i from 5 to 100 collect i) 15:26:51 <_6502_> symbol__: sort of (loop for i from 0 to 10 collect i) 15:27:15 symbol___: various utility libraries provide something that makes it more concise, e.g. alexandria:iota 15:27:17 (defun range (start end) (loop for i from start to end collect i)) (range 0 10) 15:27:29 thanks for the tips 15:27:48 incf-cl in particular has a pretty full featured range operator. 15:27:55 <_6502_> symbol: but a true lisper is expected to define a read macro so that "[1 100]" will be interpreted as that :-) 15:28:39 a newbie lisper, you surely mean 15:28:41 allowing you to provide a step: (range 0 1/4 1) 15:28:43 forex 15:29:05 <_6502_> a true newbie lisper 15:29:47 does common lisp have a standard package manager? 15:29:56 _6502_: lol 15:30:24 and [0,3..10] => (0 3 6 9), a la haskell 15:30:38 symbol___: well, you have quicklisp 15:30:40 *stassats`* has such reader macro lying somewhere around 15:32:21 <_6502_> CL committee would come up with FRESH-LIST-WITH-INTEGER-VALUES-RANGE with keyword parameters for :odd-only and :until-first-prime-number 15:32:23 anyhow, incf-cl is in quicklisp. 15:32:39 -!- chp [~chp@2001:da8:a000:155:5eff:35ff:fe0c:c3ef] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:32:51 -!- twbd|etezoeke is now known as twbd 15:33:23 symbol___: yes, it's called quicklisp. 15:34:25 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 15:34:34 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.167.98.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:34:36 no debian package for quicklisp in aptitude? 15:34:53 symbol___: try googling some of your questions. 15:34:55 symbol___: Better to avoid debian packages for common lisp projects. 15:35:36 Xach: Would you recommend installing the compiler seperately? 15:35:44 symbol__: cd && wget http://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp && sbcl --no-userinit --load quicklisp.lisp 15:35:57 follow the prompts. 15:36:02 Fade: thx 15:36:09 *_6502_* hates NSAIDs side effects 15:36:15 symbol___: yes. 15:36:17 assuming you're using sbcl of course. 15:36:21 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.167.98.146] has joined #lisp 15:36:52 if you're using ccl: ccl -n --load http://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp 15:37:00 Fade: hmmm, I went with whatever was easy, I think it's a GNU Clisp from aptitude. 15:37:31 symbol___: gnu clisp is ok. sbcl is pretty awesome. 15:37:32 I don't know the syntax for doing the same thing in clisp off the top of my head. look at the quicklisp website. 15:37:40 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 15:38:12 Is there a clear cut best implementation or is this a pro / con weighing situation? 15:38:45 symbol___: there is no clear cut one-size-fits-all implementation. sbcl is the most popular in general, but other CLs have strong points too. 15:39:31 symbol___: some lisps have specific use-cases. ABCL runs in the JVM, making it a good candidate when you want to mix with native Java code. 15:41:22 i've used the sbcl in deban to bootstrap a more recent sbcl from source pretty reliably. 15:41:40 just make sure your path is set up so that the /usr/local hierarchy shadows /usr 15:41:48 which it should be by default iirc. 15:42:15 add^_ [~add^_^@h54n1c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 15:42:47 Fade: Interesting. and the debian maintainers just configure things in a way that will cause problems, so don't stick with the sbcl package? 15:43:44 -!- vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:44:03 well, the lisp policy in debian includes something called the 'common lisp controller' which does cause issues when you're running from the system lisp with libraries that you have installed in some user context. 15:45:02 vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 15:45:06 the rate of debian package releases is dwarfed by the rate at which various lisp implementations rev, so it's usually useful just to take control of your lisp toolchain and manage it yourself. 15:45:10 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-dgxbxfnzkbwnryxx] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:45:36 since quicklisp this isn't even particularly painful. 15:45:40 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@2620:0:2820:b03:201:4aff:fef3:f0d4] has quit [Quit: Some days you're the pigeon, some days the statue...] 15:46:02 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@2620:0:2820:b03:201:4aff:fef3:f0d4] has joined #lisp 15:46:23 Fade: makes sense 15:47:36 Xach: what kind of pathname translations were you expecting? 15:51:36 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:27 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 15:54:20 -!- jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:55:44 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441148.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:56:29 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-33-254.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 15:56:29 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-33-254.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 15:56:29 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 15:59:39 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-154-180.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:38 pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:48 -!- Fare [~Fare@206.83.64.178.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:03:13 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441148.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:03:27 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:03:37 alama [~alama@d91-129-28-166.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 16:03:57 _6502_: sb-alien only manipulates pointers. 16:04:59 <_6502_> pkhuong: and deref is for arrays only? 16:06:04 no. It's for pointers as well. 16:06:23 *pointers to structures, that is. 16:07:37 If you read the docs, you'll see that, when you have an alien value that's a struct, you're slinging a pointer to that struct around. 16:07:43 jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.102] has joined #lisp 16:08:57 <_6502_> pkhuong: i'm experimenting with it... i fopen-ed a file and fread into a malloc-ed buffer, now i was trying to read out a string out of that buffer 16:10:52 pfah, fopen. open(2) or nothing. 16:11:27 <_6502_> pkhuong: hehehe... i'm interested in mmap actually, but chose fopen/fread because it was easier to test directly in the repl 16:12:34 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.203.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:12:51 enthymeme [~kraken@96.31.242.194] has joined #lisp 16:13:35 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-cvopgibekurkwvng] has left #lisp 16:15:06 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.162.77] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:17:38 kpreid [~kpreid@nat/google/x-kakxvfdbalpwctpt] has joined #lisp 16:18:22 jsnell: Not sure. I don't remember seeing the release machinery information stuck in there. 16:19:27 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:20:41 -!- markskil3eck [~chris@host81-152-162-95.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:23:01 right. just wondering why that was unexpected, and what you thought should be there 16:23:49 <_6502_> ASDF could not load asdf-install because Not an absolute pathname #P"~/.clc/systems/" 16:23:50 -!- longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:24:02 _6502_: known debian bug. 16:24:20 *_6502_* feels better 16:24:27 _6502_: http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/release-notes.html has some workarounds. 16:24:46 jsnell: I'll have to see what I got before to figure out what I expected to see. 16:25:00 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.203.70] has joined #lisp 16:25:10 jsnell: Until I do that, I guess I expected something more neutral like /usr/src/sbcl. 16:27:27 ok. I guess I could play some symlink tricks to make that happen. Just thought that paths have always been random home directories :-/ 16:28:21 jsnell: I might be remembering wrong. Maybe I'm thinking of something else. 16:29:35 silenius [~silenus@i59F70DFF.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:29:35 -!- armence [~armence@unaffiliated/armence] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:32:27 -!- twbd is now known as twbd|koken 16:33:15 *Xach* wonders what's up or down with cvs.sv.gnu.org and cl-bibtex's sources 16:33:19 *Xach* can't check it out 16:34:02 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@31.141.116.210] has quit [Quit: bsod1] 16:35:06 twbd|kok1n [~willem@91.177.201.153] has joined #lisp 16:35:54 -!- misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:36:26 There are employees active on #fsf just now. 16:37:52 -!- twbd|koken [~willem@91.177.201.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:39:21 Do they have something to do with the CVS server at gnu.org? 16:39:58 sabalabas [~sabalaba@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:40 <_6502_> xach: ok... starting fresh on sbcl if I do (require 'asdf) and (require 'asdf-install) i get an error about that absolute pathname stuff, the page suggests uninstalling and purging cl-asdf, and doing that would remove clisp 16:40:57 <_6502_> xach: does this mean that to use asdf on sbcl i've to uninstall clisp??? 16:40:57 -!- wccoder [~wccoder@d64-180-206-148.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:41:13 _6502_: What page? 16:41:43 <_6502_> xach: the one you poinyted me too... either remove the file or remove the package 16:41:47 feh, debian. :p 16:42:10 _6502_: debian and asdf-install. And let me guess, debian sbcl packag? 16:42:13 _6502_: Do you see how that answers your question? 16:42:33 _6502_: if the question is "do i have to uninstall clisp?" the answer is no, you can delete the file instead. 16:42:45 <_6502_> xach: normally i get slapped on the hands when i remove single files that were created or installed by packages because that wreaks the package systems ... 16:42:52 though I think arch is still looking for lisp package maintainers 16:43:07 _6502_: Is your goal to satisfy your package system or to use Common Lisp? 16:43:29 *j_king* just manages his own libs 16:43:36 _6502_: I don't think uninstalling debian's version of CLISP is a bad thing. 16:43:43 <_6502_> p_l|backup: i recompiled sbcl from sources on this machine IIRC 16:43:55 j_king: No quicklisp for you? 16:44:02 I use quicklisp :) 16:44:38 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:45:50 any chance that we can take what you've learned and roll out an author-contributed package db? I've got a neat lispy-domain lying around and I could host. 16:46:03 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 263 seconds] 16:46:39 What is an author-contributed package db? 16:47:10 Well my dirty pre-lisp past exposed me to cpan which i enjoyed immensely. 16:47:35 it's no small effort, obviously. 16:47:37 Xach: something like cpan or hackage, where individual authors login and upload their packages 16:47:40 I think something like that could be done with the quicklisp data mechanism. 16:49:29 i has cdr.io :) 16:51:12 j_king: is the registration still £100 for the first year ? 16:51:33 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-178-201-97.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:51:40 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:51:46 Xach: well, now imagine a developer-controlled repo for that... 16:52:02 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-yxrmzikqmmhitnfc] has joined #lisp 16:52:22 I'm not sure how high it has gone, when I bought it, I got it for about $75 ~= 45 pounds 16:52:25 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.167.98.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:54:04 *Xach* is glad gnu cvs is back 16:54:08 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.167.98.146] has joined #lisp 16:54:26 *Xach* is sad elephant still does not work with the latest sbcl 16:56:15 anyway, that's an idea i had. if anyone has a creative use for such a domain, i'm all ears. happy to donate to the cause. 16:56:58 bsod1 [~osa1@31.141.82.48] has joined #lisp 16:57:02 -!- zmv [~daniel@201.83.57.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:57:30 pnq [~nick@172.162.224.247] has joined #lisp 16:57:39 j_king: much cheaper than a few years ago :) 16:57:50 -!- sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:58:12 I wanted to register lib.io, but £150 for two years was too much 16:58:43 Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:58:44 fe[nl]ix: yeah, it isn't cheap. They've gone up in price since I bought mine. 16:58:46 turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:03 i tried to get ruf.io but someone else snagged it just minutes before me. 16:59:31 sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 17:00:13 i wanted arty.fm ("rtfm") but .fm is the same way 17:00:41 -!- Yuzu-_ [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:01:19 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-174-096-202-029.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:02:38 Xach: I'd help build it ofc. i have a few ideas if you think it's a cool idea. 17:04:52 I think you could make it without any special support from quicklisp. 17:04:55 Go for it! 17:05:11 Xach: earlier you said, " pjb: don't backslide, it's been 5 years!" 17:05:47 Xach: is this a reference to the file overwriting/system crashing code? 17:05:48 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:06:02 Yes. 17:06:58 Xach: OK. Just curious if you can recal approx. what/when the source of this code was? I've seen references to it before but not the actual code. 17:07:34 <87zmgn327x.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> 17:07:46 Thanks 17:09:55 Interestingly, 87zmgn327x is the VIN for Xach's Cayenne. 17:10:36 so, FTR this is the dangerous code that one should _never_ evaluated (mapcar (lambda (x) (ignore-errors (delete-file x))) 17:10:36 (directory "/**/*.*")) <--- IOW don't evaluate that EVER! 17:11:17 -!- jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.102] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:11:20 AKA the Lord Voldemort of CL forms. 17:11:25 let me try! 17:11:33 or "challenge accepted!" 17:13:16 mon_key: well, it might delete a lot of things that you don't want deleted. 17:13:31 mon_key: if you do want to delete a lot of things, it is probably not so bad! 17:13:46 -!- Gmind [~nevermind@113.190.167.6] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:14:42 snearch_ [~snearch@f053013007.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:15:15 -!- gor[e]_ [~svr@gw2.masterhost.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:15:40 -!- snearch_ [~snearch@f053013007.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:15:46 Xach: Yes. The question was in all seriousness and in the interest of self preservation... wanted to know what the basic format of that form was so i could identify it in the wild. 17:17:13 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.203.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:20:18 <_6502_> geesh 17:21:09 <_6502_> all i wanted was using shared memory, and I ended up fighting with asdf instead 17:21:17 *_6502_* hates build systems 17:21:20 <_6502_> and they hate me 17:21:34 What will you use the shared memory for? 17:22:22 <_6502_> hahaha... i know where this is going to... "you don't really need to do that" 17:22:37 do you? 17:22:54 _6502_: I'm just curious. 17:23:00 ok 17:23:07 oops. wrong window 17:23:23 -!- billitch [~billitch@bastille.ma3.tv] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:23:54 <_6502_> xach: oh, ok.... i was thinking about accessing an image available in another non-lisp process 17:24:03 image? 17:24:21 <_6502_> mon_key: rgm image, not a lisp image 17:24:25 <_6502_> rgm=rgb 17:25:23 what's wrong with files? 17:25:36 <_6502_> monk_key: actually a QImage that is in memory of a python/pyqt running process 17:25:40 -!- silenius [~silenus@i59F70DFF.versanet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:26:03 <_6502_> pkhuong: here we go with the "you don't need to do that" :-D 17:26:34 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-77-166.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 17:27:28 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-107-235.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 17:27:28 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-107-235.vodafone.hu] has quit [Changing host] 17:27:28 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 17:27:35 <_6502_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fox_and_the_Grapes 17:28:05 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 17:28:14 _6502_: It's more that you've chosen a mechanism that you can't figure out and you're whining a lot about, and there's a simpler mechanism that might also work. 17:28:43 I can see reasons for going with shared memory. I can also see reasons for using a mechanism that you can make work. 17:29:17 _6502_: FWIW I don't think thats whats going on. Alot of these fellas know the ins and outs and of CL w/r/t to unix/posix/FFI and have their mindset wired so close to the code running really close to the metal that they are simply curiuos what end users are doing with the interfaces they've developed. 17:30:14 <_6502_> pkhoung: i'm not going to use this, i was just considering the idea and i wanted to give it a try. note that in the real application (where no lisp is used) the images are abour 85Mb and using sharred memory instead of files is indeed important 17:30:54 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:31:05 _6502_: just use the FFI and it's exactly like C. 17:31:20 and then you can add a lispy wrapper around it. 17:32:46 <_6502_> pkhuong: i would... but when trying to follow a cffi tutorial asdf choked (as usual), and xach suggestion was to either mess with packaging system or to uninstall clisp 17:32:59 sure. Or you can use sb-alien. 17:33:32 But really, your install is broken and I'm just suggesting sb-alien because you can't use the usual infrastructure. 17:33:51 <_6502_> pkhuong: that seems a viable option, i was checking CFFI because it's allegedly portable 17:34:18 will you port your code? 17:34:47 <_6502_> pkhuong: and that's the point :-) ... my setup ends up always being invariably broken ... build systems and packaging systems hate me (and I hate them back, actually) 17:34:49 -!- a7p [a7p@9.83.238.89.in-addr.arpa.manitu.net] has quit [Quit: changing servers] 17:35:00 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:35:28 I don't understand. 17:35:29 <_6502_> pkhuong: given this trend i won't even get any code... just a weekend of pointless reinstalling :-D 17:36:12 _6502_: Stop to consider that pkhuong may be able to point you _exactly_ to a solution that will do what you need before assuming that you know the where/what/why motivating his queries. 17:36:57 <_6502_> pkhuong: there's nothing to understand... it's just my impotence rant about how things work 17:37:02 _6502_: Also, consider that mon_key has a vested interest in your dialog b/c the entire FFI mmap thing is completely alien to him and he is learning from your interaction. 17:37:06 Fare [~Fare@63.115.78.49] has joined #lisp 17:37:48 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-79-150.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 17:37:51 <_6502_> pkhuong: sb-alien indeed looks nice... i'll probably give up trying using CFFI instead (for now) 17:38:21 <_6502_> food time for me... l8r 17:39:23 a7p [a7p@9.83.238.89.in-addr.arpa.manitu.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:42 -!- reb`` [~user@nat/google/x-rggxmfceyrwppicp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:39:48 cpc26 [~cpc26@rrcs-70-63-155-141.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:43:08 -!- splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:45:57 sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has joined #lisp 17:46:16 nikodemus: you around? 17:46:40 sbryant_work: soon :) 17:47:53 a few weeks ago (probably more than that) I was seeing strange results when trying to compile a project 17:48:05 well it's back all of a sudden and makes ZERO SENSE to me 17:48:09 -!- Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: I Quit] 17:48:18 -!- twbd|kok1n is now known as twbd 17:48:44 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-79-150.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: quit] 17:49:41 sbryant_work: can you send the details to sbcl-devel or put them on lp? 17:50:23 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: quit] 17:50:38 yep 17:51:25 thanks 17:51:35 sbryant_work pasted "sbcl weirdness" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122436 17:51:37 sacho [~sacho@46.10.4.19] has joined #lisp 17:51:50 -!- drdo` is now known as drdo 17:52:16 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-yxrmzikqmmhitnfc] has left #lisp 17:55:16 -!- Guthur [c743cb8d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.141] has quit [Disconnected by services] 17:55:24 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 17:56:15 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-223-253.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:27 nikodemus: it's up there in case you missed it. 17:56:28 Xach: herep 17:56:48 If you want an additional posting to the mailing list I'll do that as well. 17:57:04 I guess I can flip the opensource switch soon on this project since I got the go ahead from the higher ups. 17:57:14 -!- beach [~user@116.118.3.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:57:40 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:58:14 gigamonkey: hello 18:01:18 gigamonkey: the suspense is killing me! 18:02:12 Xach: if you would look at that paste and tell me if you ever seen anything like this. 18:02:27 It could still be bad machines but this is the 3rd ec2 instance I've been through with this damn thing. 18:03:08 What's that github stuff for? That's not how you install quicklisp. 18:03:28 museun [~what@c-98-252-140-73.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:57 *Xach* is having deja vu - you asked about this last week? 18:04:11 a few weeks ago. 18:04:22 That's the only other time I saw it. 18:04:49 Xach: someone is being cute in the build script and attempting to fetch it from master all the damn time. 18:05:24 -!- qlife [~qlife@alumni.cs.nctu.edu.tw] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:06:00 qlife_ [~qlife@alumni.cs.nctu.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 18:06:00 sbryant_work: what's in your sbclrc? 18:06:36 just the quicklisp init stuff 18:08:00 getrusage is weird. 18:08:39 Xach: I'm building a little web server app that serves up some static content (CSS and JS) that's essentially part of the app. Any suggestions how best to bundle that stuff with Buildapp? 18:09:01 I considered slurping the text of the files in at compile-time into variables and dumping them out when needed. 18:09:29 sbryant_work: 64 bit sbcl? 18:09:38 pkhuong: yep 18:10:29 gigamonkey: It would be neat if you could stuff a little virtual filesystem into images, and all the usual CL filesystem operations worked on it (via a special host or something). But since that doesn't exist, special variables sounds about as good as anything else. 18:10:34 sbryant_work: what's the project? 18:10:56 programmable m2sh replacement with a few services built in 18:11:02 mon_key: notice that it doesn't delete everything on your system. Actually, it doesn't delete anything of importance, only all the files owned by the user. (But don't run it as root). It's the same as rm -rf /, which is rather benign again, unless you run it as root. 18:11:12 sshirokov is the main author. 18:11:36 mon_key: to the contrary of, eg. FORMAT C:, which did delete everything, since there was no notion of user and file protection on MS-DOS. 18:11:37 Xach: okay, just so long as I'm not missing some clever trick I'll go with my stupid one. 18:12:33 brown [~user@nat/google/x-yfdqldvijaixdnnp] has joined #lisp 18:12:37 *nod* 18:12:37 pjb: Very fight-clubby. The files you own end up owning you! 18:12:43 -!- brown is now known as reb 18:12:56 gigamonkey: If you find the time please patch up SBCL to do the other thing. 18:13:01 sbryant_work: OS? 18:13:10 pkhuong: linux. Ubuntu 10.04 18:13:12 pjb: Ok. Thanks for the additional details. 18:13:37 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:13:51 developed on Mac OS X. Tested in 10.04 VMs as well. 18:14:23 I'm trying to figure out if I'm just that unlucky that I've gotten 3 bad ec2 instances in a row. 18:14:44 because this was happening but I brought up a new instance and then it worked 18:14:53 had to rebuild it, brought up a new one and everything was fine 18:14:58 Either our time-t definition is really broken, or the getrusage on your platform is. 18:14:59 and all of a sudden it's not anymore 18:15:19 clock lossage? 18:16:05 it is virtualized but I've never heard of anything else having a problem. 18:16:46 -!- alama [~alama@d91-129-28-166.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Quit: alama] 18:16:53 Xach: yeah, I'll get right on that. 18:17:04 gigamonkey: wouldn't it be cool, though? 18:17:32 Xach: probably more generally useful would be a way to plug new "filesystems" into the impl. 18:17:40 So you could make a zip look like a filesystem or whatever. 18:17:47 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-217-108.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:17:51 18446744073 is a lot of seconds. 18:18:00 And then the in-image thing is a special case. 18:18:54 pkhuong: that happens instantly, so it's a lie. 18:19:13 gigamonkey: archive::create-tar-file ? 18:19:21 a serializable ram-disk? 18:21:35 sbryant_work: and the same SBCL on the same image worked fine? 18:22:06 pkhuong: yes 18:22:16 this actually had a successful compile of the image. 18:22:23 and then it didn't 18:22:46 sshirokov booted up a t1.micro image to test to see if it was a problem with the code, and no it compiled just fine. 18:23:26 and if you try to start up sbcl again, is it still failing? I can try and come up with a smaller C test case. 18:23:31 no 18:23:36 only when I try and load QL 18:23:48 mon_key: eh? We're talking about something that would let you do something like (open (make-pathname :host "foo.tar" :name "blah" ...)) 18:23:59 sbryant_work: right, but when you start the same sbcl with your sbclrc? 18:24:27 yeah 18:24:32 it works just fine. 18:25:07 and now it doesn't! 18:25:48 this makes no sense. 18:27:18 ok. So, on one hand, SBCL is a tad broken, but only when getrusage returns insane values. 18:27:37 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 18:30:21 mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:32:58 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 18:34:35 so SBCLs insane value tolerances need to be improved 18:35:01 Can some add handle insanity to the feature list? 18:35:22 -!- jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:35:27 pkhuong annotated #122436 "C test case" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122436#1 18:35:39 Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:35:39 is it bad practice to catch bindings with macrolet ? 18:36:04 sbryant_work: yes. But you can probably run the C test case below and complain to amazon. 18:37:30 gigamonkey: Sorry, likely I interjected w/out a reasonable understanding of the use-case/app. Just seemed like ARCHIVE's tar interface (and the posix tars in general) do provide something akin to a mini-file system. 18:38:06 pkhuong: oddly enough that ran just fine. 18:38:15 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-102-015.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 18:38:21 sbryant_work: you probably have to run it a couple of time, if the failure is only transient 18:38:35 mon_key: the important missing piece is being able to treat the pseudo-mini-filesystems like real filesystems that don't know anything is special about them. 18:39:15 Xach: e.g. (make-pathname :host "FOO" ... ) 18:39:15 mon_key: so e.g. a library that expects a pathname can open them, or enumerate directory contents. 18:39:32 -!- gozek [~quassel@85.52.166.111] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:39:43 where the "FOO" host is the mini file-system? 18:39:47 Something. 18:40:39 postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-242-211.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 18:41:40 Does the pathanme need to be writeable? 18:42:09 I don't think so. 18:45:19 Though you could certainly imagine that it would be nice if it made sense. 18:45:45 I.e. I'd like to be able to open a writable zip file filesystem and add files to it and when I'm done have a zip file. 18:46:27 I'd be more likely to create real files and compile them into read-only filesystems, e.g. iso9660. 18:46:49 pkhuong: i can't seem to get that work 18:47:04 Yeah, for my immediate purposes, read-only would be fine and obviously better than nothing. 18:47:50 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:48:17 The mini file-system has to be dumped with the image? 18:49:11 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:49:38 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:15 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053013007.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 18:56:20 schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 18:58:24 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.100.54] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:01:10 mon_key: I'm proposing that a general facitily for "pluggable filesystems" would be useful. 19:01:28 And the specific instance of a filesystem that can be dumped into an image would be useful. 19:01:40 Xach: For a read only mini file-system the ISO 9660 thing would be way cooler esp. w/r/t to bootstraping new/re installs, VMs, etc. 19:02:21 milanj: how do you mean? 19:03:34 I'm slowly working on an in-image filelsystem. It uses logical pathnames for its physical pathnames :-) 19:05:11 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:05:41 pkhuong: finally managed to do it. 19:06:11 sbryant_work: now you can complain :) 19:06:59 pjb: howso? 19:07:47 pkhuong: any work around that can actually get this app running? 19:07:53 like a file system, implementing chapter 19 and chapter 20 of clhs, but with in-memory storage. 19:08:04 Persistence is ensured by saving the lisp image. 19:09:10 what is/are the underlying datastructures of the "files/directories"? 19:09:15 The intended usages are: configuration and (small) resource files in applications deployed as executable images, fast (small) temporary files, and random user sandboxes. 19:09:28 rme [~rme@50.43.170.58] has joined #lisp 19:09:46 mon_key: classical hierachical directories, in multiple hosts. Just the model of logical pathnames. 19:09:56 pjb: and an important basis for the not-so-soon-to-come epic-lisp-operating-system 19:10:26 so a file is an array of chars? 19:10:40 bytes, I'd guess 19:10:40 madnificent: I'm not sure. I mean, for a true OS, you'll probably want to implement device drivers and explit persistence... 19:11:00 pjb: I was mostly joking. I find it nice that this could make someone's effort a bit easier 19:11:36 mon_key: array of chars for text files, arrays of bytes for binary files. But I'm also thinking about plain objects, with :external-type 'cons or :external-type 'your-class... 19:11:52 pjb: I also guess that there's not really that much to gain. A linux kernel doesn't soup up that much resources, does it? 19:12:51 pjb: and directories? 19:13:20 madnificent: well wrt OS, the problem of linux is that it may have bugs (not much really), it has a C API (this is a bigger problem I don't like FFI at all), and you need foreign tools to recompile it. 19:13:28 of course the big advantage of linux is its drivers. 19:13:34 and hardware abstraction. 19:13:45 mon_key: yes, directories. 19:13:57 (just hash-tables IIRC). 19:14:00 Lately SLIME seems to periodically lose the ability to tell me about function arguments. Restarting Lisp fixes it but that's obviously sub-optimal. Any ideas what's going on? 19:14:14 gigamonkey: I have same. 19:14:29 That /just/ happened to me today :( 19:14:33 alama [~alama@d91-129-28-166.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 19:14:37 seems to draw them again most of the time 19:14:45 Useless contribution: I have no idea why 19:14:50 pjb: a dedicated lisp os would make us lose things like emacs, no? (perhaps that's not important for a dedicated server) 19:15:49 madnificent: there are plans to translate the C part of emacs into CL. 19:16:03 sshirokov: Indeed works at the REPL but not in source buffers. 19:16:11 For whatever that's worth. 19:16:14 gigamonkey: Works in my source buffers. :O 19:16:23 pjb: Xach's ISO 9660 suggestion seems like a really good idea b/c its portable, documented, standardized, and potentially the img could be mounted on a looback (which apparently Windows 7 now supports natively as well). 19:16:37 I M-Tab 19:16:41 in source buffers 19:16:57 pjb: emacs and a browser... I don't really use much else :) still very very far, but closer than I assumed beforehand 19:17:17 My tab is slime-indent-and-complete-symbol 19:17:18 i wish someone would work on the webkit embed in emacs 19:17:36 The uzbl kid did 19:17:37 Somebody worked on a VFS lisp thing. 19:17:54 Can we write to and update easily an ISO9660 file system? 19:18:14 pjb: I'm not sure grazing the spec now... 19:18:40 sshirokov: dieterbe? 19:18:44 pjb: iso9660 is writ-once 19:19:06 tcr1, to intentionaly catch already established lexical bindings, something like (let ((foo 1)) (macrolet ((bar () `(+ foo foo))) ... 19:19:30 in purpose of expanding to some code that i need on couple of places ... 19:19:34 https://github.com/haxney/ezbl <-- this thing, I think 19:19:37 p_l|backup: well, one can write "updates", ie. new versions of files in subsequent sessions. 19:19:38 I've never tried it, though :((((( 19:19:57 milanj: I'd try to make it an argument to BAR in this case 19:20:07 p_l|backup: but perhaps the file system data structure would still allow for a RW iso9660 file system. 19:20:09 sshirokov: what prompted forking cl-zmq rather than making updates to the existing one? 19:20:18 sshirokov: is it a staging area for sending patches back? 19:20:22 I don't have access to that repo 19:20:38 I emailed the author telling him about it and offering to clean it up if he doesn't like something 19:21:06 But I needed it to be fixed for my project, so I forked, relied on my fork, and told him about it 19:21:12 tcr1, yes in this case, but if you want to expand to RETURN or RETURN-FROM 19:21:32 i'm trippin ... 19:21:45 Xach: If you have an "in" to merge it upstream, you have my attention 19:24:14 -!- reb [~user@nat/google/x-yfdqldvijaixdnnp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:24:14 sshirokov: I don't have an in. 19:24:34 milanj: In general I tried to avoid such things. 19:24:46 milanj: It's hard to discuss the matter on general terms 19:24:49 Only change in my fork is zmq:linger and support for it in setsockopt 19:24:55 yes, me too but sometimes it's to easy ... 19:25:10 pjb: is RW really an issue? Couldn't the CL re-dump a new file-system when saving the image? 19:25:44 milanj: Is this just about a single case in a defun? 19:25:48 rme: Around? 19:25:57 rtoym: here 19:26:09 yes 19:26:13 milanj: As long as it's just something very local, such things are usually ok 19:26:25 rme: Just wanted to know about ccl and matlisp. Have you abandoned the idea? 19:27:03 pjb. It seems like the more important thing is that the file-system portion of the CL image be dumped in a potentially portable form. 19:28:02 brown [~user@nat/google/x-zrcfgkxirfsypqlz] has joined #lisp 19:28:06 -!- brown is now known as reb 19:28:18 mon_key: rw depends on the use case. The initial motivation is really the sandbox. Providing a virtual file system allows the system to entirely isolate from the host file system. 19:28:45 mon_key: the dumping can be done with copy-file. 19:28:53 rtoym: It appears that client requirements won't allow me to use matlisp, so I didn't go anywhere with it. 19:29:43 rme: Oh. ok. I'm curious to know what makes matlisp ineligible. 19:30:06 *rtoym* still thinks about making matlisp run on ccl someday. 19:30:23 -!- sacho [~sacho@46.10.4.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:30:28 pjb: Have you looked at DrewC's planks? 19:30:59 No. 19:32:33 Not exactly the same thing... 19:32:47 pjb: AFAICT its rucksack-v2 with extensions to the btrees and a modifies the db to allow appending/offsets https://github.com/drewc/planks 19:33:30 I was somewhat pleased with rucksack 19:33:51 pjb: Its the persistent btree thing that is interesting. in so much as many file-systems are a variant of them. 19:35:03 aha! 19:35:07 rtoym: There's nothing wrong with matlisp in particular. Consing needs to be managed carefully, so we'll end up calling lapack functions via the ffi. 19:35:40 naiv_ [~quassel@ARennes-652-1-46-66.w86-214.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:36:37 rme: Ok. Matlisp, of course, already has the bare FFI to lapack. It's just not really exported. Plus it already deals with the hairy issues of the Fortran calling convention for strings and complex numbers. 19:37:12 -!- naiv [~quassel@ARennes-652-1-8-236.w2-10.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:37:19 pjb__ [~pjb@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 19:37:26 Well, I guess you can use the clapack instead of lapack itself. Last time I checked (years ago), clapack was slower than lapack. 19:38:31 -!- Fare [~Fare@63.115.78.49] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:39:26 Fortuantely, calling simple stuff dgesv is not too hard. 19:40:57 mon_key: well i guess btrees would be overkill for the small in ram fike systems envisionned for my virtualfs. But for a true file system indeed they could be used. 19:42:54 sacho [~sacho@46.10.4.19] has joined #lisp 19:43:43 git://sbcl.git.sourceforge.net/gitroot/sbcl/sbcl # not yet official, but soon. now open for testing 19:44:17 -!- sacho [~sacho@46.10.4.19] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:44:58 sacho [~sacho@46.10.4.19] has joined #lisp 19:45:52 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:47:06 _pw_`` [~user@125.34.52.49] has joined #lisp 19:48:16 nikodemus: That will be the new official, canonical SBCL repository? 19:48:18 -!- _pw_` [~user@125.34.52.49] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:48:32 yes, after 1.0.49 has been released 19:48:43 unless something goes badly wrong 19:49:59 nikodemus: Did you get the "gettid" patch I sent you for osicat? 19:50:13 i did, didn't just get to it yet 19:50:15 jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-184.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:50:25 ok ... just thought I'd check. 19:51:28 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-217-108.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:57:45 aperturefever [20164@ninthfloor.org] has joined #lisp 19:59:42 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-184.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:00:30 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@rrcs-70-63-155-141.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 20:01:49 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@h54n1c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Quit: add^_] 20:03:42 When did cl+ssl move to gitorious? 20:05:04 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@2620:0:2820:b03:201:4aff:fef3:f0d4] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:05:10 pdlogan [~patrick@c-76-27-203-101.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:15 glidesurfer [~glidesurf@2002:5796:72be:0:230:5ff:fe37:7a8d] has joined #lisp 20:06:05 Am I missing something or do I really have to write it this way? http://paste.lisp.org/display/122440 20:06:27 Xach: on April 10 20:07:09 glidesurfer: There are many ways to write it. 20:07:15 gor[e] [~svr@79.165.187.105] has joined #lisp 20:07:49 glidesurfer: I usually go with (and (<= (length prefix) (length string)) (string= string prefix :end1 (length prefix))) or similar. 20:08:21 alexandria has starts-with-subseq 20:10:11 Xach: Ok, did it the way you mentioned before, thought string>= might be better but it turns out: it's not 20:11:04 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c711b3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:56 and btw the one I pasted is wrong 20:14:03 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@2620:0:2820:b03:201:4aff:fef3:f0d4] has joined #lisp 20:19:20 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-223-253.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:19:20 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@96.31.242.194] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:22:21 sbryant_work: I guess it would be possible to preload a getrusage wrapper, but I'll try and write/commit a patch up soonish. 20:22:52 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:22:59 nesv [~nick@LONDON14-1176247333.sdsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 20:23:05 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.170.58] has left #lisp 20:27:40 pkhuong: thank you. 20:29:28 Xach: the official clsql mirror is there now? 20:30:13 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@2620:0:2820:b03:201:4aff:fef3:f0d4] has quit [Quit: Some days you're the pigeon, some days the statue...] 20:30:48 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@205.233.9.181] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 20:31:42 tritchey [~tritchey@205.233.9.181] has joined #lisp 20:31:44 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@205.233.9.181] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:32:56 cheezus [~Adium@69-196-141-102.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 20:35:17 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-217-108.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:36:56 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.167.98.146] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:38:59 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@82.181.58.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:41:48 -!- alama [~alama@d91-129-28-166.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Quit: alama] 20:43:01 -!- nesv [~nick@LONDON14-1176247333.sdsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 20:44:11 -!- MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@nc-71-55-73-135.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:45:35 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:46:09 -!- EarlGray [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:46:14 is CL-STORE the right tool to use to serialize simple structs and a hash table of said structs? 20:46:39 Simple structs are serialized by cl:print. 20:46:55 hash-tables can be serialized trivially, with maphash... 20:47:19 If that's all you have to serialize, do you really want a heavy weight library dependency? 20:48:10 No I don't. I am storing hefty amounts of data in the struct; about 1 MB of binary data (as a vector) per struct (and therefore per table entry). 20:48:31 there's the classic fasl trick. 20:48:33 So you might want a binary serialization perhaps? 20:48:43 pjb, Right. 20:48:46 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:49:03 Qworkescence: pkhuong may be on something. 20:50:08 On the other hand, fasl trick is implementation specific. 20:50:58 If you need to be able to deserialize your file from any implementation, then you'll need to do it yourself or by a library. In that case your requirements are sophisticated enough to justify a library. 20:51:01 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 20:51:07 pjb: the trick itself is portable; the fasls are specific 20:51:13 Yes. 20:51:29 fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:31 I said implementation specific, not implementation dependant :-) 20:52:01 What's the fasl trick? Sounds like it requires COMPILE-FILE as a dependency. 20:52:13 Yes, compile-file. 20:52:13 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 20:52:38 (I found some info on the net concerning the FASL trick) 20:53:06 you compile-file a file that contains (do-something-to-the-data #.(grab-the-data)). 20:53:10 I don't know if it'd be worth it on big data, compared to a binary serializer. 20:53:27 cl-store isn't terribly heavyweight last I tried it, and it might just happen to be the easiest way to just generally serialize data. :) 20:53:29 Ah, yes, this way it's good. 20:53:39 You can even compile-file a string stream! 20:54:12 pjb: it worked pretty well for my few-GB worth of specialised vectors. 20:54:14 Arg! No, not compile-file. load works on streams, but compile-file needs a pathname designator, and a string stream is not. 20:54:32 pkhuong: Yes, I didn't thought of #. to insert the data without writing it to the file. 20:54:38 billitch [~billitch@bastille.ma3.tv] has joined #lisp 20:55:03 pkhuong, pjb: I'll try to compile-file fisl fasl trick first. Thanks. :) 20:55:32 That's really not a good mid/long-term persistence solution, though. 20:55:42 SBCL randomly breaks fasl compatibility, for instance. 20:55:59 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:56:12 That's OK right now luckily. I'll try for something more robust in the future. 20:58:38 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:59:59 sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:00 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:49 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 21:01:50 felideon [~felideon@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:24 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:03:41 tippenein [~chatzilla@c-24-245-21-197.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:01 ProfOak_ [~chatzilla@c-71-239-135-0.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:45 -!- gz` [~gz@209-6-49-85.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 21:07:43 Does anyone else think that keys should be aligned from the ones in the previous line? Example, "(with-open-file (f temp :direction :output~%:if-exists :supersede~%" ; Do you think :direction and :if-exists should be aligned? 21:08:46 I do, most of the time 21:08:56 -!- glidesurfer [~glidesurf@2002:5796:72be:0:230:5ff:fe37:7a8d] has quit [Quit: Bye.] 21:09:04 You're saying instead of aligning to "(f" ? 21:10:23 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178-223-161-9.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:10:34 Right; my SLIME seems to align it to TEMP 21:10:48 guh. people in my orbit are starting to send me that essay "the lisp curse" 21:11:00 Fade, haha 21:11:09 mheld_ [~mheld@static-72-74-246-210.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:55 Is #+(or)
the only reliable way to use #+ to comment something out? 21:12:22 Qworkescence: I like #+#:this-does-not-work 21:12:32 Qworkescence: there's also #-(and). 21:12:34 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:12:35 -!- pjb__ is now known as pjb 21:12:50 any uninterned symbol you can put in source code is guaranteed to not be on *features* 21:12:52 pjb, I said "to use #+" you illiterate moran!!! 21:13:50 that's way to motivate people to help you in future 21:13:54 :) 21:14:09 AutismSundae [~hurr@2407ds1-fb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 21:14:30 where is the .emacs file for setting up slime? 21:14:37 -!- mheld_ [~mheld@static-72-74-246-210.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:14:39 -!- postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-242-211.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Quit: postamar] 21:14:48 pjb` [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 21:14:50 tippenein: ~/.emacs 21:14:57 (pjb, I hope you caught my sarcasm, but I'm not sure 'sarcasm' is the semantically correct word here.) 21:15:29 does it default to empty.. cause I got nothing there 21:15:37 yeah 21:17:03 Qworkescence: in either case the answer is no, since antifush's is another way. 21:17:12 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has quit [Quit: bye] 21:18:01 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:18:19 Qworkescence: it's best just to speak earnestly 21:18:43 Maybe so. 21:19:12 down the "did you catch my sarcasm" route lies tiltonism 21:19:32 -!- sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:20:05 it also unpleasantly increases cognitive load to have to be sensitive to it 21:20:17 Well, Kenny is busy working. We may do with another Tilton. 21:20:23 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-223-253.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:47 SIGPIPE raised ? 21:22:42 pjb`: I see him working next to me right now! 21:22:54 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:23:20 antifuchs: I laughed pretty hard :\ 21:23:41 antifuchs: i like #+noworkie 21:23:53 SIGPIPE raised on process inferior lisp 21:24:50 felideon: except you'll be screwed once somebody pushes that on *features* (: 21:24:58 yeah like sykopomp 21:25:08 :D 21:25:14 sykopomp: ((-: 21:25:24 #+shhhh, #+nahhhhh, #+xxxxx, #+holdon... 21:25:46 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-217-108.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:25:54 it's always fun to pretend SBCL is the New Implementation of Lisp 21:25:55 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 21:26:08 #+|#1=nobody-is-ever-going-to-evaluate-(push #1# *features*)| 21:26:29 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441148.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:27:31 that doesn't look pretty :( 21:27:40 a language should look pretty 21:27:42 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:28:20 #+:| | 21:28:26 So it looks shocked and upset. 21:29:38 haha 21:31:13 #+:| O_O -oO( I don't think I have this...) | :final-useless-contribution 21:32:04 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441148.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:33:13 HET2 [~diman@2.25.12.74] has joined #lisp 21:33:44 sbryant_work: I didn't know there was such a thing. 21:35:00 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-174-096-202-029.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: statonjr] 21:36:24 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441148.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:36:25 What lisp compiler would you recommend on a windows machine? I heard sbcl is great but the windows ports don't make me comfortable. 21:37:01 how about GCL 21:37:38 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-235-234.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:38:15 ProfOak_: why don't they? 21:38:21 I'll definitely look into that. I've wanted to learn lisp for a while and I'm not always on my linux machine. 21:38:21 -!- HET2 [~diman@2.25.12.74] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:38:30 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 21:38:48 also what's wrong with the sbcl ports 21:38:54 s0ber_ [~s0ber@111-240-168-112.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:57 y3llow_ [~y3llow@111-240-168-112.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:14 GCL is not something to use. 21:39:36 Xach: There's only one architecture and it's labeled "port in progress". I just assumed that meant alpha/beta. 21:39:49 glidesurfer [~glidesurf@2002:5796:72be:0:230:5ff:fe37:7a8d] has joined #lisp 21:39:53 ProfOak_: Clozure CL seems to work pretty well on Windows. SBCL does too for many things, so if there are specific problems you have, not vague concerns, it would be interesting to hear about it. 21:40:05 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-164-222.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:40:21 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 21:40:24 I've used it to make graphics and do other stuff on windows without much trouble, but if your needs are sophisticated you might run into a limitation that really hurts. 21:40:40 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-132-250.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:40:40 -!- y3llow [~y3llow@111-240-164-222.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:40:53 -!- y3llow_ is now known as y3llow 21:41:00 Xach: These may be premature questions as I haven't really begun coding with lisp yet. I've only had miniscule experience with PLT scheme/racket before. 21:41:24 I have a 64bit machine, will the x86 version be ok for me? That's the only one that's being ported atm. 21:41:32 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-33-254.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 21:41:32 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-33-254.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 21:41:32 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 21:42:05 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Client Quit] 21:43:39 I don't know, sorry. I only used 32-bit. 21:43:47 -!- AutismSundae [~hurr@2407ds1-fb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:45:11 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-33-254.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 21:45:11 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-33-254.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 21:45:11 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 21:45:16 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-165-207.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 21:46:20 I'm pretty sure it'll run, but it probably won't produce optimized code. I don't think I need to worry about it though. I'm not doing anything too advanced just yet. 21:46:33 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441148.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:51:23 -!- varjag [~eugene@162.163.9.46.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:56:12 If you just want run-everywhere for learning lisp, CLISP is quite compatible 21:56:48 dmiles_afk [dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:56 galaxy_999 [~galaxy_99@pool-71-101-53-214.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:14 we used CCL on windows, and it worked fine, though you have to use 64bit CCL on 64bit boxes iirc 21:58:45 Phoodus: I'll check that out as well as GCL 22:00:26 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:01:06 Phoodus: I thought that was fixed, but it doesn't hurt to do it, I'd think. 22:02:18 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:02:32 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-33-254.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 22:02:32 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-33-254.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 22:02:32 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 22:03:01 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:03:14 huangho [~vitor@189-10-150-196.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 22:03:37 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-11-41.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:03:38 Atomsk [ace4016@adsl-184-32-11-41.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:55 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75763b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:05:42 -!- pjb [~pjb@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 22:06:05 Hello! Is it possible to read symbols (with read or read-delimited-list) without interning them? 22:06:49 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:07:14 huangho: If the symbol has the syntax of an uninterned symbol, yes. 22:07:19 e.g. #:foo 22:07:26 otherwise: no. 22:07:51 ah 22:08:07 so I cannot tell the reader not to intern any symbol it sees? 22:08:23 nope. the reader, as specified, doesn't have any of these hooks 22:08:30 they would be very convenient, to be sure 22:08:32 but alas ): 22:08:52 hmm, ok 22:08:53 thanks 22:09:12 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:11:27 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:11:54 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:12:26 -!- xpf [~xpf@78.31.74.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:13:29 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:13:37 redline6_ [~redline65@cei-gla-cpk2.coxinc.com] has joined #lisp 22:14:17 -!- redline6_ [~redline65@cei-gla-cpk2.coxinc.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:14:21 -!- redline6561-work [~redline65@cei-gla-cpk2.coxinc.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:14:30 -!- tsuru [~charlie@adsl-74-179-198-44.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:15:48 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@240.29.195.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:16:54 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 22:17:32 -!- vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: vervic] 22:18:21 -!- cheezus [~Adium@69-196-141-102.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:18:52 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:19:37 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:19:58 amb007 [~a_bakic@240.29.195.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:13 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:28:36 cheezus [~Adium@69-196-141-102.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 22:28:36 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:33:27 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 22:34:57 -!- Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:35:06 -!- huangho [~vitor@189-10-150-196.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:36:31 ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has joined #lisp 22:36:59 hi, is it possible to create a stream that contains an array like #(1 2 3)? 22:37:25 "contains"? 22:37:29 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-56-74.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 22:37:47 antifuchs: I need something like with-input-from-string, but for octects 22:38:44 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-56-74.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has left #lisp 22:41:20 ignotus: see flexi-streams for how to do that. 22:42:50 -!- cheezus [~Adium@69-196-141-102.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:42:55 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-169.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:42 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:44:01 Bahman [~Bahman@2.144.244.3] has joined #lisp 22:44:01 Xach: thanks i've found FLEXI-STREAMS:WITH-INPUT-FROM-SEQUENCE 22:45:52 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:47:38 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:43 Hi all! 22:50:25 xpf [~xpf@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 22:51:17 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-33-254.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 22:51:17 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-33-254.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 22:51:17 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 22:53:52 -!- felideon [~felideon@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:54:20 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Client Quit] 22:55:08 enthymeme [~kraken@96.31.242.194] has joined #lisp 22:55:56 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@80-218-247-218.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:56:55 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@31.141.82.48] has quit [Quit: bsod1] 23:00:40 beach [~user@116.118.9.112] has joined #lisp 23:01:30 Good morning everyone! 23:01:35 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-165-207.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:01:58 has anyone ever used NST? 23:03:08 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:05:02 sbryant_work: I went to a talk given by the author, but never used it. 23:06:22 it looks super complete. 23:06:33 i like 5am because it's super simple 23:06:50 but this gives me junit output for free (and jenkins likes that) 23:06:54 mechnik [4b48807a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.72.128.122] has joined #lisp 23:07:06 -!- tippenein [~chatzilla@c-24-245-21-197.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.17/20110422045944]] 23:07:08 strout [~strout@ip-64-255-129-222.ideaone.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:39 hello beach, how are you influencing your current side of the planet? 23:08:01 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 23:08:03 cheezus [~Adium@207.164.79.106] has joined #lisp 23:10:49 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.144.244.3] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:11:07 -!- hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has left #lisp 23:11:30 madnificent: Wow, that's a tough one. Not sure. But I have been working on the docstrings for the sequences dictionary of SICL. 23:11:44 madnificent: What about you? 23:12:34 beach: hey, I'm doing my thesis, I'm allowed not to contribute anything :) 23:12:58 I assumed you were on location for some cool project :) 23:13:20 -!- mechnik [4b48807a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.72.128.122] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:13:45 beach: but in real life, I've been writing tasks@hand, which sadly hasn't got much to do with lisp, if anything at all. 23:13:50 madnificent: Indeed, but it has nothing to do with Lisp. I have been running the first ever batch of the third-year undergraduate program in informatics here. 23:14:05 that's interesting 23:14:29 I took advantage of the situation and used Lisp in 3 courses. So it's a bit related. 23:14:41 madnificent: What is your thesis topic? 23:15:00 -!- cheezus [~Adium@207.164.79.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:15:26 beach: it's in dutch, but in english it would translate to "modelling and verification of generic object sequences on the semantic web" 23:16:09 madnificent: And when do you defend? 23:16:14 also, it's good that they at least hear about lisp. You never know one catches it up 23:16:15 -!- ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has left #lisp 23:16:46 beach: that's a master thesis topic btw, not a doctorate's thesis (just to be on the same line). I guess I'll have to defend it in August. 23:17:33 madnificent: Two of the courses were already meant to be in Lisp, but I hijacked the course in syntax analysis to use Lisp to teach parser combinators. 23:18:00 besides you favoring lisp, I also think it's the wise choice 23:18:51 madnificent: It was, given that the students had Lisp fresh in their minds, and if I had used a different language, I would have spent too much time on that aspect, especially since it was a small (3 ECTS credits) course. 23:19:01 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-174-096-202-029.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:19:11 how many credits do they have per year? 23:19:38 madnificent: The ECTS system says 60. 23:19:38 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-174-096-202-029.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:19:41 statonjr_ [~statonjr@cpe-174-096-202-029.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:20:16 lisp's syntax is also both interesting as clean imho 23:21:27 madnificent: Sure. But it became a bit messy with the mutual reference of elementary parsers. The two libraries I looked at solve this problem differently. 23:21:53 cheezus [~Adium@207.164.79.118] has joined #lisp 23:21:54 -!- cheezus [~Adium@207.164.79.118] has quit [Client Quit] 23:23:20 either case, congrats on that beach 23:23:41 -!- Harag [~phil@dsl-242-247-123.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:24:06 cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 23:24:20 Thanks. 23:27:22 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:30:57 -!- iori [~iori@110-133-45-54.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:32:28 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:33:28 jlf`` [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has joined #lisp 23:33:39 val056 [irc2gowebc@ppp-166-146.98-62.inwind.it] has joined #lisp 23:33:44 YEAH MAN 23:33:56 what do you think about a gentle introduction ? 23:33:59 "a gentle introduction"? 23:34:13 to symbolic computation? 23:34:19 yea 23:34:20 h 23:35:25 madnificent: did you already talk to jans about your thesis? (-: 23:35:28 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 23:35:32 -!- ProfOak_ [~chatzilla@c-71-239-135-0.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027]] 23:35:43 madnificent: that sounds like it would be very interesting to him 23:35:54 (topic, and the dutch-ness of it) (-: 23:35:57 do you have a link? 23:39:12 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-77-166.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 23:39:41 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-77-166.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 23:45:10 GAH! Stuck again on a docstring, this time for MAKE-SEQUENCE. Question 1: What do typical implementations do when INITIAL-ELEMENT is an object that cannot be stored in the resulting sequence? 23:46:34 vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 23:47:00 Question 2: the Common Lisp HyperSpec says: "If the implementation can determine the element type specified for the result-type, ...", but what does it mean for an implementation to determine the element type? 23:47:56 -!- vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has left #lisp 23:48:03 type-of? 23:48:04 markskilbeck [~chris@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 23:48:35 also, I'd suggest firing away an error condition for Q1 23:49:47 no idea if it's the typical behaviour, but that's the kind of behaviour I would expect from feeding incorrect type 23:50:33 beach: I think Q2 is just in contrast to the later "; or, if the implementation can determine that the element type is unspecified (or *)" 23:50:41 -!- markskil2eck [~chris@host81-152-162-95.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:51:00 u/w 40 23:51:05 oops 23:51:53 Phoodus: But there is no formal definition of "determine". One infers that always returning t is not acceptable, but why? 23:52:21 p_l|backup: I think you are right about question 1. 23:52:47 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:54:59 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:58:46 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:59:14 How do I avoid spaces to be counted? http://paste.lisp.org/display/122442 23:59:22 This doesn't work...