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So a valid implementation of NSUBSTITUTE would modify its argument and then return a copy of the modified sequence, but it is NOT allowed to just return a modified copy of the sequence without modifying it. 00:54:49 i.e, without modifying its argument. 00:56:37 longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has joined #lisp 00:56:59 Let me try again: NSUBSTITUTE is required to modify its argument. But it is not required to return a sequence that is identical to its argument. 00:57:12 -!- DontBlamePTM is now known as PuffTheMagic 00:57:56 beach: you can make two modifications to the argument that amount to a no-op 00:58:01 And optimise them away by hand ;) 00:58:55 I'm guessing "nsubstitute and nsubstitute-if are required to setf any car (if sequence is a list) or aref (if sequence is a vector) of sequence that is required to be replaced with newitem. If sequence is a list, none of the cdrs of the top-level list can be modified." 01:00:15 pkhuong: I don't understand your argument. 01:00:45 Xach: Right, but nothing is said about the value returned being identical to the argument. 01:02:31 I can't see how any implementation would choose not to return the original argument, and so I don't understand why it was not specified like that. 01:03:11 *Xach* has vicious deja vu 01:03:24 beach: (let ((tmp (car list))) (setf (car list) ... (car list) tmp)). 01:04:09 pkhuong: Still don't get it. Sorry for being dense. 01:04:11 wislin [~user@118.122.165.4] has joined #lisp 01:04:36 pjfd4 [~pjfd@pool-141-155-129-4.ny5030.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:58 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.18.20.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:05:03 pkhuong: Is your argument in favor of not specifying that the original sequence be returned by NSUBSTITUTE? 01:05:09 MoALTz [~no@92.18.20.184] has joined #lisp 01:05:15 beach: it seems like the function syntax section suggests nsubstitute, etc return the original sequence, while the non-destructive ones return a result-sequence. 01:05:28 no. I'm just saying that the requirement to (setf car) or (setf aref) isn't binding 01:05:39 Xach: Oh, missed that. Hold on... 01:06:00 Xach: Right you are! Thanks! 01:06:21 pkhuong: It is according to the spec. 01:06:43 You have to (setf car), it doesn't say with what. 01:07:04 Hmm. 01:07:22 -!- erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:07:49 That's not a very honest parsing, though. 01:08:00 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:09:01 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.194.53] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 01:09:23 erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has joined #lisp 01:09:32 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:12:54 cheezus [~Adium@69-196-141-102.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 01:15:50 Well, it seems clear that nsubstitute is an exception inthe n* functions. It is explicitely mentionned that: "nsubstitute and nsubstitute-if can be used in for-effect-only positions in code.". 01:16:11 antoni [~user@162.pool85-53-42.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 01:16:30 -!- erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:16:49 erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has joined #lisp 01:17:43 Also, it says "but they may modify sequence.", but since they "are required to setf any car (if sequence is a list) or aref (if sequence is a vector) of sequence that is required to be replaced with newitem." but "If sequence is a list, none of the cdrs of the top-level list can be modified.", it means in practice that they MUST modify the sequence, when any substitution is to be done at all. 01:18:28 pkhuong: yes, the intend is obviously to setf the slots to implement the substitution. 01:21:25 The author of "on lisp" book do not like CLOS. How do you think about CLOS? 01:21:44 It is indeed surprising, when eg. nreconc is not specified in such a way as to impose the reuse of the tail list (it specifies nreverse which doesn't). 01:21:55 Is it really useful? 01:22:07 wislin: Yes. 01:22:09 wislin: clos is very handy. 01:22:12 wislin: nowadays CLOS implementations are very good and fast so you should have no inhibition about using it. 01:22:32 wislin: CLOS can lead easily to concise code, which is a good thing. 01:22:41 pjb: That is very surprising indeed. 01:22:46 -!- fourier [~user@h-200-168.A176.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:22:54 pjb: Another reason we need an annotatable Common Lisp HyperSpec. 01:23:04 beach: I'd bet it has something to do with some existing application or implementation at the time of the normalization... 01:23:20 thanks,eveyone. Now I know how to do it. 01:23:23 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 01:23:33 -!- erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:23:42 erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has joined #lisp 01:25:05 wislin: I am willing to bet that nearly every modern CL program that has not been written explicitly in the purely-functional style makes use of several aspects of CLOS. 01:25:40 wislin: Of course, it is a bit vague in that I don't define "nearly" or "modern". 01:26:43 Modern was at the beginning of the 20th century. We're past modern. 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[Quit: freenode] 03:41:56 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-154-196.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:27 -!- qlife [~qlife@alumni.cs.nctu.edu.tw] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:43:35 qlife [~qlife@alumni.cs.nctu.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 03:44:39 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has joined #lisp 03:44:48 Jubb [~ghost@c-68-33-4-101.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:11 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:51:20 guther_ [guther@newshell1.bshellz.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:37 -!- Jubb [~ghost@c-68-33-4-101.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:52:50 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 03:52:56 -!- guther [~guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-oxohrnxrjesbgkns] has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:53:02 -!- guther_ is now known as guther 03:53:40 What is the proper behavior of: (defvar x '#1=(1 2 3 . #1#)) (subseq x 0 10) 03:53:43 Jubb [~ghost@c-68-33-4-101.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:17 -!- Jubb [~ghost@c-68-33-4-101.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:56:01 *vlion* rummages around for a list of reader macros 03:56:24 (1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1) 03:56:59 Hm, as I thought. LispWorks 5.1 seems to go into an infinite loop (or something). 03:57:15 It's cyclic on sbcl also. 03:57:31 Try (setf *print-circle* t) 03:57:41 Yeah, actually it is UB. 03:57:47 (loop for i from 0 below CHAR-CODE-LIMIT when (get-macro-character (code-char i)) collect (code-char i)) 03:58:04 Oh, the subseq is what Zhivago said, whoops. 03:58:07 then you will have to distinguish dispatching macro characters. 03:58:41 Since circular lists are not proper. 03:58:42 subseq requires sequence be a proper list. 03:59:09 I see. 03:59:12 the result of defvar is the name of the variable, so there's no reason to enter a cyclic printing. 03:59:19 Er, proper sequence, to be precise. 03:59:31 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/hyperspec/HyperSpec/Body/sec_2-4-8.html suggests to me that #1 is not defined? Or no? 03:59:48 WOW CL IS SO INCONSISTENT BURN IT WITH FIRE 03:59:57 It is not conforming, indeed. 04:00:02 Quad: No shouting. 04:00:09 An implementation could reject the argument. 04:00:21 Quad: And yes, CL has quite a bit of undefined behaviour. 04:00:21 vlion: It's #= with argument 04:00:50 vlion: # can be followed by integers and characters separated by comas (characters prefixed by ') before the dispatching character. 04:01:03 #\1 is indeed not a valid dispatching character. 04:01:36 enthymeme [~kraken@76.91.206.81] has joined #lisp 04:01:41 Ah, gotcha. I was parsing it as # \1 = 04:02:06 #\1 is a valid reader macro. 04:02:12 I wonder what it's doing internally that makes it break. I guess disassemble could help. 04:02:19 The dispatching character (the subchar) is #\\. 04:02:21 Break? 04:02:52 What makes my aforementioned code run into a loop (I assume) 04:02:55 Quadrescence: your implementation doesn't check the input is a proper list. That's why it's broken, and return a subseq. 04:03:09 CL doesn't print cyclic lists finitely by default. 04:03:19 Bike, That's not the issue here 04:03:22 No. The default setting for *print-circle* is nil. 04:03:24 Quad: What is it doing instead? 04:03:44 The REPL just freezes and I have to kill it. 04:03:55 You're doing something else. 04:05:07 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jlahlmrnytlamvfh] has joined #lisp 04:05:13 Quadresce [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 04:05:46 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Disconnected by services] 04:06:20 Quadresce` [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 04:06:35 Internet connection seems to be going weird. 04:07:09 -!- Quadresce [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Disconnected by services] 04:07:20 -!- Quadresce` is now known as Quadrescence 04:10:00 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.84.12] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:13:25 Quadresce [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] 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quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:42:20 evening 06:42:34 splittist [~splittist@230-106.3-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:43:01 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-167-21.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:47:24 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.199.205] has joined #lisp 06:48:40 benny [~benny@i577A2041.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:50:24 anonchik [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has joined #lisp 06:50:40 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-130-75.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:50:42 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 06:51:21 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:52:06 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 06:55:24 -!- splittist [~splittist@230-106.3-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: splittist] 06:57:46 hsaliak [~kailashs@nat/google/x-wwmajlggexmjqikv] has joined #lisp 06:58:37 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-151-172.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:58:40 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 07:00:40 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-199-35.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:00:46 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@76.91.206.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:01:44 How do I let different users on one machine use quicklisp? Quicklisp says it's already installed even when I change user; I thought I could copy the quicklisp directory to the new user's home folder and chown it recursively, but then I get some "permission denied" error from QL when starting sbcl. 07:03:46 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:04:25 good morning 07:06:23 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:09:44 gaidal: the simpliest way would be to execute the same installation procedure for each user.http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/#installation 07:10:13 Otherwise I'd expect to be able to copy the quicklisp directory too... 07:10:44 It says it's already installed. I tried to erase everything but it still knows somehow, have to find out how. 07:11:14 I mean, I erased all traces of it for that user to try again. 07:13:16 When I copy the QL dir, it lets me load packages I have already downloaded, but when trying to install a new one it gives me Permission Denied for ql/dists/ql/archives/.../that-particular-git.tgz-file 07:13:24 If it's already installed then there's nothing else to do. 07:13:28 Even though I chowned it. 07:13:39 silenius_ [~silenus@p4FC227F0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:14:24 You probably had a bad umask. 07:14:34 Hm. 07:14:43 Do you know where it looks to see if it's installed? 07:14:48 find ~/quicklisp -type d -exec chmod 755 {} \; & find ~/quicklisp -type f -exec chmod 644 {} \; 07:15:04 -!- silenius [~silenus@p4FC226CD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:15:17 splittist [~splittist@230-106.3-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:15:20 I deleted it, I would rather repeat the installation for this user too like you said, if possible. 07:15:22 morning 07:15:36 But it keeps looking at the installation in the first user's home dir. 07:15:38 gaidal: see ~/quicklisp/setup.lisp 07:15:51 pjb: True. 07:16:26 gaidal: also, it might be useful to read the FAQ: http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/faq.html 07:16:35 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-71-111.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:16:56 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-37-159.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:17:01 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 07:17:04 Idid. 07:17:07 I did*. 07:17:08 <_3b> did you log in to the other user or su? 07:17:14 sudo -u 07:17:20 hum. 07:17:39 *_3b* thinks you need another options, su -u ... - maybe? 07:18:01 <_3b> whatever it is that gets your environment set right for the new user 07:18:09 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-167-21.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:18:23 *_3b* isn't sure how to do that with sudo though 07:18:34 is there a "natural" algorithm for searching for an image for a lisp script, in case the lisp implementation doesn't offer standalone executables? 07:18:46 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@80-218-247-218.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:18:55 or should I rely on the $PREFIX ? 07:19:03 at install-time to be correct 07:19:24 or at compile-time, rather 07:19:45 gaidal: you may also find ~/quicklisp -type f -exec grep -n $OLDUSER {} /dev/null \; 07:20:24 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 07:20:28 Can't su, it's not my box. :( 07:21:52 <_3b> no sudo su ? :p 07:21:59 <_3b> sudo -H -u might work though 07:22:02 <_3b> or -i 07:22:06 pjb: That line... finds everything in ~/quicklisp owned by the old user... and does what with /dev/null? :/ 07:22:11 sudo su, ah, could work 07:22:42 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:22:44 There doesn't seem to be any record of the user in ~/quicklisp, so there's no reason why copying it shouldn't just work. 07:23:07 enthymeme [~kraken@76.91.206.81] has joined #lisp 07:23:34 if the find command I gave finds everything in ~/quicklisp owned by the old user, my advice would be to re-install linux from scratch. 07:23:50 You've got something seriously wrong if that's what it does... 07:24:15 Ah. It works with su, not with sudo -u. 07:24:28 pjb: Hehe I was guessing :P 07:25:21 pjb: I don't like to type in commands containing /dev/null if I don't know what they do 07:25:23 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.67.199.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:26:07 Alright, got it installed. I wonder what sudo -u user actually does, then, since it didn't work... 07:26:34 <_3b> it changes UID but not environment 07:26:37 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-67-199-173.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 07:26:51 <_3b> so HOME etc is still the old user 07:26:56 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 07:27:54 Oh. 07:28:05 aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:28:20 -!- Fare [~Fare@74.125.59.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:28:48 nunb [~nundan@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 07:28:56 <_3b> i think -H would set $HOME, and if that isn't enough -i would run a whole login shell (which would require trusting the target user) 07:29:01 (say-thanks '(pjb _3b)) 07:29:17 -!- nunb [~nundan@121.243.225.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:31:30 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:31:45 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:36:09 Who have bought lispworks in this chananel? 07:38:01 wislin: I do 07:38:54 HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:39:45 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:42:10 gko: your job are professional lisp programmer. 07:42:39 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@76.91.206.81] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 07:43:03 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@121.8.247.191] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:43:25 Fare [~Fare@63.115.78.49] has joined #lisp 07:43:30 -!- mippymoe89 [~mippymoe8@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:45:56 nope 07:48:32 Xach: why does quicklisp try to create .cache in / when I launch maxima? 07:49:09 Ralith: it is probably not quicklisp (but ASDF); and do you have $HOME environment variable set? 07:49:25 I do. 07:50:08 jdz: it only happens when the quicklisp load command is in my .sbclrc 07:50:31 scode [~scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 07:51:29 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:51:53 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@115.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:52:01 bsod1 [~osa1@31.141.87.195] has joined #lisp 07:52:28 museun [~what@c-98-252-140-73.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:52:58 wislin: but I use it quite a lot in various projects at work for various tasks... 07:53:05 Ralith: how is that related to launching maxima? 07:53:17 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-pbhnzifdeykrjkrd] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:53:27 jdz: I don't really know! 07:53:32 but when I remove it, maxima stops being broken. 07:54:53 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 07:55:07 blandest [~user@89.122.117.70] has joined #lisp 07:55:22 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.121.74] has joined #lisp 07:55:26 i have no clue what does maxima have to do with your sbcl initfile 07:56:19 jdz: well, it probably loads it. 07:56:24 considering that it runs on sbcl itself. 07:56:56 -!- lanthan [~ze@p54B7EBC3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 07:59:01 Ralith: you end up in a debugger, right? 07:59:42 jdz: yep 08:00:44 Ralith: so you can see what and why is wrong, right? 08:01:13 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-axukigsfnirzfhvk] has joined #lisp 08:01:20 I wouldn't be too surprised if it was possible to 08:01:32 I don't know how, though. 08:01:50 type "help" 08:02:05 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-151-172.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: G'bye] 08:02:09 this is not the first day you see a computer, right? 08:02:19 CrLF0710 [crlf0710@114.96.64.147] has joined #lisp 08:03:54 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-151-172.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:04:19 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:04:21 it is the first day I have had the slightest interest in debugging something using sbcl's native debugger. 08:04:24 Guthur [c743cb8d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.141] has joined #lisp 08:05:11 how annoying took me 15 minutes to figure out what was wrong, when all i had was a typo: setf where it should have been getf... 08:06:55 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@155.69.43.14] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:07:27 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-117-156.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:09:01 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:09:42 c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-ohjeyrxubuefbqoc] has joined #lisp 08:09:56 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.199.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:09:57 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 08:13:31 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:13:52 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 08:15:08 -!- CrLF0710 [crlf0710@114.96.64.147] has left #lisp 08:18:38 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 08:26:01 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 08:29:45 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-53-222.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 08:29:45 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-53-222.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Changing host] 08:29:45 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:30:05 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 08:33:30 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:36:00 -!- df_aldur_ is now known as df_aldur 08:40:13 -!- blandest [~user@89.122.117.70] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:40:43 misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has joined #lisp 08:42:21 -!- aceluck [~aceluck@175.142.145.81] has quit [Quit: aceluck] 08:42:40 -!- gko [~gko@42-72-209-179.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:43:24 gko [~gko@42-72-181-227.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 08:51:09 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jlahlmrnytlamvfh] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:51:23 markskilbeck [~chris@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 08:53:50 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 08:59:46 -!- wislin [~user@118.122.165.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:00:08 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:02:14 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:02:45 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:06:58 Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 09:07:43 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:08:31 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 09:08:55 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-mwdupymsqpbchscd] has joined #lisp 09:09:23 *aerique* finally discovers slime-autodoc-use-multiline-p 09:10:40 so much for the 'self-documenting' part of emacs (; 09:11:13 i'm not the brightest bulb :-| 09:11:47 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:12:12 Would that be the onion? 09:13:11 Demosthenes [~demo@h-68-166-140-122.nycmny83.static.covad.net] has joined #lisp 09:13:17 Tulip? 09:13:38 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 09:14:17 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@h-68-166-140-122.nycmny83.static.covad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:14:50 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:15:28 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-143-77.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 09:16:33 aerique: you can manually display all of an arglist via C-c C-d A 09:16:55 without having to make it the default 09:17:20 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754c50.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:22 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:17:53 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 09:18:13 tcr1: thanks 09:21:42 -!- jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:28:05 Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 09:29:22 jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 09:30:51 -!- Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-17-38.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:36:01 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:37:39 lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:38:15 -!- EricAhn_ [~EricAhn@121.138.70.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:38:50 EricAhn [~EricAhn@121.138.70.61] has joined #lisp 09:39:54 -!- qizwiz [~user@ppp-70-245-65-87.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:40:11 qizwiz [~user@ppp-70-245-65-87.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:52 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-178-201-97.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:44:11 Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-17-38.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:44:55 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has joined #lisp 09:45:35 Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:46:10 -!- Harag [~phil@dsl-242-247-123.telkomadsl.co.za] has left #lisp 09:46:16 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:46:27 jarmond [~jarmond@78-105-157-248.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:47:37 -!- longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:52:13 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 09:53:00 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-22-127.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:53:45 pholasek [~pholasek_@2001:67c:1220:c1b0:21e:37ff:fecb:baa0] has joined #lisp 09:53:57 -!- pholasek [~pholasek_@2001:67c:1220:c1b0:21e:37ff:fecb:baa0] has left #lisp 09:54:32 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:54:45 I'm constantly thinking of my own Lisp language. The intention is to blow C++ and C out of the water. I've got a few ideas, and I was wondering what you'd think about them, so here are some: 09:54:46 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 09:55:13 i think it's not worth it 09:55:32 Just as a toy language then. 09:55:37 jtza8: CLtL 3rd Edition 09:55:53 CLtL? 09:56:11 -!- sacho [~sacho@46.10.4.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:56:31 I was thinking of getting rid of the need for garbage collection all togeather. 09:56:49 jtza8: No garbage collection is specified in the standard. 09:56:50 ouch ... and I just wanted to say "go ahead" 09:56:55 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@195.22.80.141] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 09:57:12 jtza8: you can write: (defun free (object) (values)), and call free on each object allocated in CL. 09:57:25 flip214: ... eh not the C way :) 09:57:26 jtza8: so: 1- there's no need for a new language. 09:57:34 superjudge [~superjudg@195.22.80.141] has joined #lisp 09:57:48 2- you can take any free CL implementation, remove the GC, and provide instead such a system:free function. 09:57:51 3- have fun! 09:57:54 I guess you need to tell more before I can build an opinion 09:58:06 And it will still be 100% conforming Common Lisp. 09:58:33 no GC? sounds like a step backwards 09:58:37 I'm thinking about whether it could work to move garbage collection to compile time? 09:58:52 I mean... 09:58:54 jtza8: For some data. 09:59:01 but it'd be hard to use, cl may implicitly allocate things, like bignums 09:59:10 jtza8: notice also the declaration dynamic-extent. 09:59:13 clhs dynamic-extent 09:59:17 still no bots? 09:59:28 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@195.22.80.141] has quit [Client Quit] 09:59:49 stassats: that's no problem: we'll just be as fast as C, with as many memory leaks. 10:00:51 There are solutions. 10:01:12 pjb: right, memory is cheap nowadays 10:02:03 You know, for braging about a programmable programing language, you're not really thinking far atm. 10:03:15 I'm just saying, these things can be handled at run time. 10:03:26 Code can be changed while it's running. 10:03:40 No? 10:03:59 what are you talking about? 10:04:00 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-185-93.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:05:05 Never mind, then... I'm obviously not making any sense. 10:05:09 Forget about it. 10:05:28 jtza8: so much for your intentions... 10:05:48 looks like C and C++ are here to stay for a while longer 10:06:09 Hehe. 10:07:19 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:07:44 have you researched this question? have you looked at bitc? 10:07:59 If I could get some of these concepts to work in a concrete implementation, I'll show it to you. Until then, I'm horribly mistaken. 10:08:37 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-mwdupymsqpbchscd] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:08:37 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has joined #lisp 10:08:39 jtza8: you have not yet told us what those concepts are 10:08:40 I will look at bitc, I've done some minor research, but as I said, it's just a stupid idea for now. 10:08:46 oh well, bitc doesn't use s-exps anymore 10:09:29 sacho [~sacho@46.10.4.19] has joined #lisp 10:09:48 Of course it doesnt. Did you not watch CNN the other month? It explained this in detail. 10:10:39 that's sad, no code samples on the site (BitC) 10:11:15 Well, thanks for listening anyway. :P 10:11:19 You can move garbage collection to compile-time. Look at MLKit, region-based memory management, and region inference. 10:11:48 algal [~anonymous@78-86-30-77.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:12:03 -!- algal [~anonymous@78-86-30-77.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has left #lisp 10:12:36 pkhuong: I will, thanks. 10:13:09 In the end, pure region inference tends to introduce fairly large (temporary) space leaks. At another end of the spectrum, there's stuff like prescheme, which disallows any construct that it can't compile down to stack allocation, and makes you use some form malloc/free for the rest. 10:14:13 Yeah, if it isn't easy to use and effecient, then it isn't Lisp. 10:14:35 Oh, and mutability probably makes inferred regions useless. 10:15:37 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:15:39 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:16:00 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@31.141.87.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:16:38 I thought about extensive use of introspection, handling the simple things at compile-time and changing what needs to be changed at run-time. 10:20:02 As I said, the Common Lisp standard doesn't prescribe any kind of memory management. You're free to take a free CL implementation, remove the garbage collector and add whatever you want for memory management. 10:20:22 What more can we do to let you think far? 10:20:37 like restart at the end of the day? 10:21:02 I've got 24 GB of RAM. How often do you think I would have to restart? 10:21:10 Yeah, who needs memory management anyway. 10:21:20 pjb: pretty often i'd say 10:21:40 pjb: It also depends on what you do. 10:23:31 pjb: i just measured processing a single request in a web page: takes sbcl to generate 8.5 megabytes 10:24:09 (/ (* 24 1024) 8.5) --> 2891 page served and running :-) 10:24:19 daniel___ [~daniel@p5082A333.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:25:45 pjb: compiling a file, like 45MB 10:25:51 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5B326F74.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:26:05 (/ (* 24 1024) 45) --> 546 files compiled and running... 10:26:34 Not counting that I have I don't know even how my TB of hard disks, so I can always add a swap file... 10:27:45 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:28:20 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ucrjuiqjmnfylyem] has joined #lisp 10:28:20 -!- gko [~gko@42-72-181-227.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:31:17 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 10:31:19 mobydick [~textual@124-171-177-47.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:31:48 pjb: compiling and loading my project from scratch is 12GB 10:33:29 hmm, virtual memory as the new garbage collection 10:34:05 reminds me of the plan9 concept of having a WORM jukebox and never actually deleting anything 10:34:19 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:35:02 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:35:44 -!- nannto [~nanto@pee5b70.tokyff01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 10:40:40 -!- Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:48:57 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.101.216] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:55:07 Yuuhi [benni@p5483C5B1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:00:37 jdz: 8.5 megs for a web req? you must be working on something really heavy? 11:02:34 Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:03:29 cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.101.216] has joined #lisp 11:05:14 kdas_ [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-jimtdfirxwvsaktr] has joined #lisp 11:05:33 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 11:06:02 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-185-93.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 11:07:06 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-185-93.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:07:21 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:07:49 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:11:29 -!- silenius_ [~silenus@p4FC227F0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:12:23 -!- kdas_ [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-jimtdfirxwvsaktr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:15:01 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:15:37 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:18:15 e-user [~e-user@nat/nokia/x-wlxtxddawdjrwmpp] has joined #lisp 11:22:51 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:27:45 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-ucbksspxzqtaewfv] has joined #lisp 11:27:45 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-ucbksspxzqtaewfv] has quit [Changing host] 11:27:45 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 11:31:13 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:32:12 -!- jarmond [~jarmond@78-105-157-248.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:32:58 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-174-096-202-029.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:35:33 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:35:35 -!- mobydick [~textual@124-171-177-47.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 11:35:40 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has joined #lisp 11:42:20 -!- Fare [~Fare@63.115.78.49] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:42:47 hypno: why do you think so? 11:43:05 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-117-156.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 11:43:46 hypno: getting a list of 3 records from a database with postmodern is 4.5MB already 11:44:06 hypno: oh, nvm, looked at a wrong number 11:44:17 hypno: that was 3 bytes lol 11:45:13 hypno: anyway, generating short-lived garbage is quite cheap 11:46:12 jdz: thanks for fixing your tarball 11:46:39 Xach: you're welcome 11:47:16 -!- hsaliak [~kailashs@nat/google/x-wwmajlggexmjqikv] has left #lisp 11:48:36 hypno: part of the size for my 8MB requests is that they use a templating system which uses CL compiler to compile, and they are compiled on every request 11:49:45 whaaat 11:49:57 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 11:50:11 i knew i'd scare some people with that sentence. 11:50:21 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-185-93.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 11:51:19 would be faster to fork ccl to compile on every request 11:51:32 :D 11:51:39 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:53:04 Xach: now you're scaring people 11:53:19 jdz: why not just compile the template to a function when it changes and call it on each request? 11:54:00 ilmari: what changes? a record in a database? changed from another application? 11:54:17 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ucrjuiqjmnfylyem] has left #lisp 11:54:24 jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.6.248] has joined #lisp 11:54:24 'template' implies non-changing content 11:54:24 i'm not saying it's not doable, just that it has not been done yet, and i have more important things to worry about 11:54:36 jdz: the template itself 11:54:59 yes, the template is in the database, and can be (and actually is) changed from another application 11:55:02 you pass the data to be substituted in (from the database or wherever) as arguments to the function you compile the template to 11:55:17 greaver [~DCA@94.126.185.1] has joined #lisp 11:55:17 jdz: have a timestamp, compare that to the timestamp on the compiled version 11:55:36 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754c50.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:55:41 bla bla bla, i said, i have more important concerns 11:56:15 jdz: heh, alright. it sounded a bit excessive, but then again, beeing pragmatic about these things when they simply does not matter is of course smart. :) 11:56:16 ilmari: your solution implies that the other application also has to be changedf 11:56:17 longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has joined #lisp 11:56:36 jdz: or a trigger in the database to update the timestamp 11:56:50 yeah, or a trigger created in the database 11:57:21 all i can say now is: "meh" 11:57:48 yeah, if template compilation isn't showing up as significant in your profiles, don't bother 11:57:57 but it's an easy fix if/when it does become a problem 11:58:11 exactly 11:58:41 and maybe in the end i'll end up generating a bunch of static HTML pages, then it won't even matter at all 11:59:47 btw, i did not write the templating system :) 12:00:09 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-ohjeyrxubuefbqoc] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:00:33 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:00:44 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:03:12 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 12:03:27 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has left #lisp 12:04:34 -!- Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:05:50 HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 12:07:59 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Quit: system updates] 12:08:31 Hi guys, I'm looking at working on a project, and I would like to be able to spawn threads over multiple machines with some sort of message parsing interface. Does anyone know of a well developed lisp package that does this? 12:10:09 I've considered erlang as an alternative, but I'm not sold on the speed of an individual erlang thread. 12:11:22 -!- Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:11:43 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 12:11:57 My god, pyjamas is sexy. 12:12:59 pjfd4 [~pjfd@pool-70-18-12-95.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:00 Bacteria: What kind of messages would you pass? 12:14:12 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 12:14:34 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-151-172.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: G'bye] 12:14:38 Vectors and potentially some sort of object and tracking information. 12:14:56 -!- setmeaway2 [stemearay@183.106.96.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:14:59 Bacteria: What kind of objects would be contained in the vectors? 12:15:02 ehu [~ehuels@109.33.152.244] has joined #lisp 12:15:23 setmeaway [stemearay@183.106.96.30] has joined #lisp 12:16:56 I basically want to split up 3d space across multiple threads, have objects, these could spheres, space ships, atoms, 3d meshes. So an object will reside on one of these threads. If they are moving, they will get to a point where a thread does not handle "this" space anymore and the object needs to be passed onto a neighbour thread for processing/handling 12:17:03 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 12:17:56 Bacteria: So you need a shared address space across different machines? 12:18:40 beach: or just serialise/deserialise the object when moving it 12:18:47 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-151-172.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:02 In a way yes. Threads are aware of their neighbours in the 3d space, but not what is occuring within the neighbour. 12:19:25 Until an object traverses into another thread. 12:19:41 ilmari: I don't see how that would work in the presence of arbitrary pointers inside objects. 12:20:58 beach: I've implemented this in C++ with mpi. But I want to take this further, however, the language does not foster rapid development and prototyping. 12:21:32 I've spent the little time I've had over the past few months debugging things that I shouldn't have to worry about. 12:23:40 lifeng [~lifeng@bb219-74-171-2.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 12:24:30 -!- bsbutler is now known as redline6561 12:24:34 -!- redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has left #lisp 12:24:38 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 12:25:44 Bacteria: Any reason MPI wont work with lisp too? (it should be easy to hook) 12:27:22 ok. just turned old cl-net off. 12:27:31 if any body experiences problems, please let me know. 12:28:46 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@bb219-74-171-2.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:28:50 hypno: There is a mpi lisp package. And hooking mpi is probably doable. I was curious if there was any more I guess "native" packages around that support things like monitors and linkers. 12:29:23 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-151-172.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: G'bye] 12:29:31 emef [~user@c-71-231-64-121.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:45 foocraft [~ewanas@78.101.151.175] has joined #lisp 12:30:17 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:30:25 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:31:53 chp [~chp@2001:da8:a000:155:5eff:35ff:fe0c:c3ef] has joined #lisp 12:32:25 Bacteria: CL-MUPROC? or perhaps Butterfly? 12:33:13 not sure if butterfly is open source tho. you could always talk to david. he's a good guy ime. :) 12:33:19 Yeah, muproc looked good, but lacked spawning of procs on multiple machines. 12:33:43 I don't know how cl-mpi would go spawning remote processes. 12:34:10 Hmm, butterfly. 12:34:11 Bacteria: You want to spawn remote processes? 12:34:16 lifeng [~lifeng@bb219-74-171-2.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 12:34:21 Indeed ehu 12:34:21 Bacteria: You could probably use ABCL to do it. 12:34:58 You would need to hook into the Java remote invocation APIs 12:35:07 but other than that, it's lisp. 12:35:17 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@bb219-74-171-2.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:35:37 it is quite easy to roll your own protocol also of course. it can be made very elegant with CLOS MD and macros, etc. 12:35:50 lifeng [~lifeng@bb219-74-171-2.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 12:37:50 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@bb219-74-171-2.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:38:10 Hmmm. 12:38:37 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:38:52 silenius [~silenus@p4FC227F0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:39:39 ehu: I've always tried to stay away from the jvm. But I need this to be of reasonably fast performance. 12:39:50 And of fast development time. 12:39:55 replore_ [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:40:31 Hmm. I should just pick something and try it rather than ponder about and doing nothing. 12:40:39 do you need to share data within the same lisp process also? 12:40:44 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-151-172.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:26 hypno: depends what you mean by that. 12:42:12 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:42:17 If by lisp process you mean the lisp image, then yes. 12:42:30 Assuming that a single image can run multiple threads. 12:42:33 well, do you need to run many concurrent threads in the same lisp? do you need to keep a lot of state around for a long time? otherwise a simple inetd-based approach would work, heh. 12:43:40 Bacteria: what kind of calculations do you want to do? ABCL is reasonably fast for data processing, but not so much at number crunching. 12:44:29 (not that it can't be improved upon, though) 12:44:48 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:45:13 Basically I'm writing a video game that runs on a cluster. So each thread will be calculating physics of each object to some degree and accepting commands from players to move the object. 12:46:02 ok. well, that's probably too much numbers for abcl. 12:46:15 its boxing will cost too much performance. 12:46:25 Yeah, I thought it might. 12:46:37 Bacteria: if I understand you correctly, you have decided how your processes are to be logically partitioned, and now you are interested in the management of distributed processes, and the management of routing messages between those processes? 12:47:03 (so basically almost exactly the model that Erlang offers, but a faster implementation) 12:47:18 I have decided this. I have my topology set out and know how everything needs to be done. 12:47:39 I've started coding it up in C/C++ with mpi and I'm getting stabbed in the back by the language. 12:47:42 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0107.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 12:48:03 Bacteria: what sort of results did your Erlang research yield? 12:48:12 So yeah. I don't want to go to the laborious extent of writing some of the things that exist in erlang. 12:48:41 Looking at erlang, I've found that an individual thread, started to struggle with large amounts of objects. 12:49:11 I could quite possibly reduce my partitioning size, so I use more threads. 12:49:12 there was a project called NetCLOS that sounds like it might be what you want, but I have no idea where you can find it. 12:50:12 But I'm unsure of the sweet spot between number of threads and the communication overhead. 12:50:21 Hmm. Interesting. 12:50:26 cbp [~cesarbol9@189.247.171.157] has joined #lisp 12:50:28 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 12:50:33 it extends CLOS with actor-based concurrency, futures, and makes message passing transparent, IIRC. 12:51:06 Interesting. 12:51:07 and it allows you to move what it calls "active objects" between different object spaces, which are essentially just Lisp images running on whatever machine. 12:51:12 That might be exactly what I'm after. 12:51:21 which would support your requirement for moving objects as they move "physically" in your model. 12:51:24 Oh, that's perfect if it can do that. 12:51:27 (if I understand that right) 12:51:32 Yeah 12:51:51 warning: I have never used it, only read about it, and I *might* have the code somewhere, but don't bet your job on what I'm saying. :) 12:52:09 Hahahaha 12:52:31 Bacteria: http://kogs-www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/~hotz/ 12:52:34 This is a hobby, so I'm not in any rush or reliance on this. 12:52:50 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:52:55 if you get it working and write something interesting, I'd love if you came back and told us of your experiences. 12:53:05 this is something I have personally wanted to try, but can't seem to find the time. 12:53:39 Yeah, most certainly. 12:53:49 it also does automatic distribution of objects (which I'm a little skeptical of), which you might find time-saving during prototyping. 12:54:00 That would be handy. 12:54:12 I'll be sure to let you know how it goes. 12:54:14 the issue, I think, will be whether you can get it running on a free Lisp, assuming you don't have the cash for Allegro. :) 12:54:22 cheers, that would be appreciated. good luck! 12:55:02 No probs, thanks for suggesting it to me! 12:55:32 lifeng [~lifeng@bb219-74-171-2.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 12:55:47 dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:48 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@bb219-74-171-2.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:57:00 -!- splittist [~splittist@230-106.3-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:57:58 lifeng [~lifeng@bb219-74-171-2.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 12:58:21 superjudge [~superjudg@host-90-238-94-205.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 12:59:49 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@bb219-74-171-2.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:00:13 lifeng [~lifeng@bb219-74-171-2.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 13:01:36 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@bb219-74-171-2.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:02:33 -!- replore_ [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:02:48 Hmm, I can get a free version of allegro. I can't see anywhere that says there are restrictions on it. 13:04:10 There are restrictions on it, alright. You can not use it for commercial use, and there's a heap limit too. 13:04:20 -!- jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.6.248] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:04:27 And no application delivery, afair. 13:04:41 Nuu. Not a heap limit. 13:04:45 Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:04:47 (Or not to the full possible extent (tree shaking and that.)) 13:04:47 You can get a lot of useful things from Franz by just asking them for it. 13:04:52 That is incorrect. You can become a Value Added Reseller. 13:05:41 Hahah 13:06:02 *Bacteria* puts on his lab coat and asks nicely for free stuff. 13:08:18 Ah yeah, I found the conditions 13:08:53 replore [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:09:03 bjoh [~bjarte@cC1AE00C3.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #lisp 13:09:26 You should checkout LW and SCL too. In all honesty tho, i think you are better of just hacking up your own protocol, etc. You could even layer it over some web server, like libevent-http, and bang, you have your 10k/s without doing anything. 13:09:59 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.1.251] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:10:11 Or, say, use the builtin SCL-server. It's a great event+thread combo and comes with thread pool support, cheap price and excellent support. :) 13:11:05 this is freenode, not proprietarynode! 13:11:13 Hahahah 13:11:25 Hi - I'm having a problem. I'm trying to parse some HTML and I'm using cxml-stp to find certain nodes. The problem is that when there is a node with an &ndash or &mdash in the data field it and I try to read it it will crash my slime connection. Anyone know why this is and how I should do it? 13:12:05 configure slime to use unicode 13:12:12 or specifically, utf-8 13:13:01 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:13:39 Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:14:15 I would have thought that reading HTML as XML might cause some issues 13:14:33 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@host-90-238-94-205.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 13:14:44 or maybe that's only if the parser is expecting well-formed'ness 13:15:18 armence [~armence@unaffiliated/armence] has joined #lisp 13:15:32 you can use cxml-stp closure-html, no problem 13:15:42 cxml-stp with closure-html 13:15:58 I am checking out stassats tip. Will report back if or when it works. 13:16:26 kboad [kboad@70.122.105.59] has joined #lisp 13:17:18 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 13:18:52 Super. That worked. Thanks. I've been sitting with this for the last 45 mins. Couldn't understand why it didn't work. 13:19:31 we are here to help 13:19:36 Some of us, anyway. 13:22:12 Bacteria: free stuff is at http://cliki.net, including a library to send work to slave lisp processes from a master lisp process (possibly on different hosts). 13:23:17 Ah awesome pjb. I've had a quick browse over cliki. A number of libs there are what I'm after, but they haven't been touched in a while... 13:23:30 Maybe I could take a look at them when I get some time. 13:23:58 Or just write my own mpi... 13:24:09 With minimal functionality. 13:24:56 that should be fun 13:25:58 Yeah, to get the communication channels up.... 13:25:59 -!- kboad [kboad@70.122.105.59] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:26:01 -!- bjoh [~bjarte@cC1AE00C3.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:26:32 Hmmm. 13:26:40 if you want a library that meets all your needs you just roll your own 13:27:06 kboad [kboad@70.122.105.59] has joined #lisp 13:27:10 Precisely. It might be doable with my limited time in lisp. 13:27:46 Peter Keller would probably love to have someone try his mpi library and provide feedback. 13:28:41 Heh. I'll take a crack at his mpi lib first before I go mental and write my own. 13:29:01 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:29:18 I'm familiar with it's workings already. 13:30:57 -!- sykopomp [~user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:36:31 -!- kboad [kboad@70.122.105.59] has quit [] 13:38:30 kboad [~bo@70.122.105.59] has joined #lisp 13:40:18 zerogeedawg [~brian@c-71-202-139-217.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:36 jtza8_ [~jtza8@41.56.60.153] has joined #lisp 13:41:47 has any work been done on connecting opencl and common lisp to each other? They are vastly different beasts, yet it seems to be the way big computations are going. 13:43:19 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:44:11 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-22-127.iburst.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:45:14 Work has been done. 13:45:16 I saw someone wrote some cuda bindings. 13:45:25 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0107.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:45:50 -!- ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:47:40 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:47:47 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.33.152.244] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:48:02 ehu [~ehuels@109.33.152.244] has joined #lisp 13:48:19 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-117-156.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:57 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.156.244] has joined #lisp 13:50:39 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 13:51:41 -!- Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:52:42 madnificent: opencl reminds me of corba. 13:53:22 Zhivago: I think it's a vastly different story 13:53:29 I need to go 13:53:35 -!- zerogeedawg [~brian@c-71-202-139-217.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: zerogeedawg] 13:53:37 -!- kboad [~bo@70.122.105.59] has quit [] 13:53:49 Bacteria: I don't think cuda is 'the right way (TM)' But I may be wrong 13:53:50 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:52 madnificent: In terms of having a degenerate kitchen sink disease. 13:54:30 madnificent: Hahaha. I've never played with it, but the problem is that cuda restricts to hardware. 13:54:32 Zhivago: it's as much of that, as forcing developers to write multi-core programs 13:55:11 Bacteria: indeed, that's the only reason I don't think it's wise. I don't know enough of the differences in their base constructs. 13:56:55 I suspect that multicore code almost isn't worth writing. 13:56:59 -!- silenius [~silenus@p4FC227F0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:57:27 It reminds me of the brief hey-day of transputers. 13:57:29 ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has joined #lisp 13:57:50 Good morning, all. 14:00:15 TristamWrk [~thomaj11@2620:0:2820:b03:201:4aff:fef3:f0d4] has joined #lisp 14:00:45 Zhivago: I disagree. For some -- probably the majority of software -- that may be true, yet I think we'll need it in some key points in order to reach acceptable speeds. 14:00:54 -!- TristamWrk [~thomaj11@2620:0:2820:b03:201:4aff:fef3:f0d4] has quit [Client Quit] 14:00:55 I can't see much stopping the divergence of computational resources into cloud based vms and thin terminals. 14:00:59 -!- lusory [~bart@bb219-75-23-224.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:01:12 same problem 14:01:20 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@2620:0:2820:b03:201:4aff:fef3:f0d4] has joined #lisp 14:01:21 Same problem as what? 14:01:39 you need to keep in mind that your single-threaded performance has a fairly low upper bound 14:01:49 Except that opencl doesn't scale. 14:02:23 You can orchestrate a large number of single threaded vms. 14:02:47 not necessarily true. You can scale it just like you scale with multiple cores 14:03:00 No -- shared memory doesn't scale. 14:03:37 gpu's have virtually no shared memory. Programming algorithms on it means that you have to take a minimal set of data and operate it as if you were operating on a stream (well vaguely similar) 14:04:04 -!- museun [~what@c-98-252-140-73.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:04:06 And how many gpus can you pick up on demand? 14:04:17 -!- poindont` [~user@cloudbovina.bovinasancta.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:04:24 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.172.249.6] has joined #lisp 14:04:43 gpus don't scale. :) 14:04:47 mk2 [~user@159.92.65.64] has joined #lisp 14:04:56 What it comes down to is that at some point you have to say "why bother?" 14:05:22 I can write specialized code that won't scale, but may run fast for small data sets. 14:05:47 Or I can write generalized code that will, and may take more resources, but I can rent those on demand for a few cents. 14:05:59 lusory [~bart@bb121-6-7-59.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 14:06:13 urandom__ [~user@p548A71FE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:33 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:06:41 homie [~levent.gu@xdsl-78-35-146-172.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:06:44 Right now it kind of makes sense, but the writing seems to be on the wall. 14:07:21 -!- sausages [~valc@balmora.robotjunkyard.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:07:58 sausages [~valc@balmora.robotjunkyard.org] has joined #lisp 14:09:35 -!- jtza8_ [~jtza8@41.56.60.153] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:11:51 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:13:17 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.33.152.244] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:13:46 ehu [~ehuels@109.33.152.244] has joined #lisp 14:16:07 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 14:16:45 littlebobby [~bob@unaffiliated/littlebobby] has joined #lisp 14:17:35 sykopomp [~sykopomp@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:09 -!- lusory [~bart@bb121-6-7-59.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:18:45 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:18:50 redline6561-work [~redline65@66.6.146.58] has joined #lisp 14:19:03 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has quit [Changing host] 14:19:03 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 14:20:27 -!- markskilbeck [~chris@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:21:44 -!- Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:21:51 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 14:21:54 -!- misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:22:01 -!- daniel___ [~daniel@p5082A333.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:22:04 Is there a way to make Hunchentoot give me unicode characters rather than HTML-encoding them? And to encode/decode HTML and unicode codes to characters. 14:22:09 daniel [~daniel@p5082A333.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:22:14 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-155-156.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 14:22:33 I've found out how to enable unicode for emacs, slime, swank and hunchentoot today but can't make it do this. 14:23:00 gaidal: try (setf hunchentoot:*hunchentoot-default-external-format* hunchentoot::+utf-8+) 14:23:06 Did that. 14:23:29 lusory [~bart@bb116-15-159-99.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 14:24:32 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:46 gaidal: hunchentoot returns whatever data you ask it to return. 14:24:48 Even set the content-type to utf-8 although it shouldn't be related. 14:24:56 gaidal: perhaps you are using a library that is doing the encoding? 14:24:59 Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:25:10 are html-template or cl-who involved? 14:25:21 Xach: CL-WHO is, yes. 14:25:58 gaidal: see http://weitz.de/cl-who/#*escape-char-p* and the rest of the docs, too 14:26:16 Will do. 14:26:18 Thank you. 14:26:30 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:27:58 -!- Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 14:32:19 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-axukigsfnirzfhvk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:32:25 Xach: But is that relevant when I get data from an input form? I can't see how CL-WHO is involved in that, although it made me wonder if it would send characters differently with POST if I had CL-WHO put charset=utf8 in the page header. 14:35:10 loke [~elias@bb116-14-45-139.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 14:35:11 If Hunchentoot returns whatever data I ask it to return (koan?), the question is what I asked it to return. 14:36:48 gaidal: It depends on how you set up your request handlers. 14:37:17 gaidal: are you sure the encoding isn't happening on the client's end? 14:37:25 gaidal: I just did a really simple test to confirm to myself that hunchentoot returns the data you ask it to return. here's what i set up for handlers: 14:37:33 (setf hunchentoot:*dispatch-table* (list (lambda (request) (lambda () "soylent grün ist menschen fleisch!")))) 14:37:35 define-easy-handler 14:37:42 go to any page, and you get that string back in return. 14:37:50 no html entity encoding. 14:38:03 Ah, yes, *those* work. Åäö et c. But Chinese characters become numbers. 14:39:10 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:39:18 Ok. 14:39:50 *Xach* tries some chinese characters 14:39:56 phuong: Yes, (print "") to the remote server gives me "" back over slime/swank. 14:40:22 Took some time to get that working too. :) 14:40:53 gaidal: client as in web browser. 14:41:03 But if I put the same in my input form I get "靓"... 14:41:09 Oh. 14:41:14 I'm not sure. 14:41:24 Doesn't seem unlikely. 14:41:40 Right. So your question isn't how to make sure hunchentoot doesn't encode generated pages, but rather its inputs? 14:41:45 -!- greaver [~DCA@94.126.185.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:42:28 Right. 14:43:25 However it looks like I solved it - it works if I add some charset stuff to the HTML. Sorry guys, I didn't think of that before. 14:44:00 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:44:05 I added content-type explicitly through CL-WHO - setting it in Hunchentoot is not enough (I wonder where that one actually goes). 14:44:41 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:46:21 Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:46:36 y [~user@175.124.94.167] has joined #lisp 14:46:53 And SBCL knows how to code it back into HTML compatible format! Awesome. 14:47:00 -!- y is now known as Guest30044 14:48:34 xpf [~xpf@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 14:50:00 Yuzu-_ [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:50:01 silenius [~silenus@p4FC227F0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:56 oudeis [~oudeis@77.125.82.23] has joined #lisp 14:51:06 Yuzu-__ [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:51:20 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 14:51:59 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:52:28 -!- Yuzu-__ is now known as Yuzuchan 14:52:38 -!- emef [~user@c-71-231-64-121.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:52:49 Correction: It does work with hunchentoot:content-type* set to text/html;charset=UTF-8. I guess I set the default-content-type to UTF-8 but then set it back to plain text/html again in the handler. -_-v 14:52:51 -!- Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:53:16 -!- lusory [~bart@bb116-15-159-99.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:53:28 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:54:37 -!- Yuzu-_ [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:55:18 lusory [~bart@bb219-74-161-39.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 14:55:33 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:56:56 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: "Object-oriented design" is an oxymoron] 14:58:00 -!- qizwiz [~user@ppp-70-245-65-87.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:58:50 emef [~user@c-71-231-64-121.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:55 sabalabas 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-!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:16:42 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:19:16 Davsebamse [~davse@gate.ipvision.dk] has joined #lisp 15:19:30 cheezus [~Adium@69-196-141-102.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 15:21:02 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:21:20 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:22:23 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.121] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:22:24 -!- aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:23:00 sup, nigger mvilleneuve 15:23:29 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:23:42 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:23:43 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:24:07 jsoft: Go away. 15:24:28 :\ 15:25:08 HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 15:25:23 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-178-201-97.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:56 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:42 aleron [~brad@63.sub-75-197-211.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 15:28:23 Xach: thanks for testing! 15:28:52 I know it's not especially exotic, but thought I'd share. 15:28:56 -!- emef [~user@c-71-231-64-121.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:29:00 jsoft: I'm fine, thank you for asking 15:29:20 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:30:20 HG` [~HG@p5DC04FBA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:11 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:32:11 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:32:24 -!- chp 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[~Glossina@71-38-154-196.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:59 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:38:35 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:40:57 HerrBlume [~user@stgt-5f73a3ad.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:20 hello, how do i specify an alias in an clsql expression? 16:42:05 e.g: select id as person_id from persons 16:42:05 16:46:28 -!- mippymoe89 [~mippymoe8@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:47:17 `fogus [~fogus@pool-72-83-146-103.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:46 gozek [~quassel@85.52.166.111] has joined #lisp 16:50:12 hm 16:52:41 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:53:37 Harag [~phil@dsl-242-247-123.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:54:23 has clsql it's own channel? 16:54:37 mippymoe89 [~mippymoe8@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:59 HerrBlume: it has a mailing list. 16:55:02 HerrBlume: and a manual. 16:57:00 -!- Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:58:39 Xach: didn't found it in the manual 16:59:48 in the manual:(sql-expression :table 'person :attribute 'id :alias 'person_id) 16:59:53 didn't work for me 16:59:55 pjfd2 [~pjfd@pool-70-107-168-139.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:29 the result has no alias 17:00:54 but nevermind, i will go home now, and look at it again the day after tomorow 17:01:04 but thanks for listening anyway 17:01:07 -!- pjfd4 [~pjfd@pool-70-18-12-95.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:01:13 -!- HerrBlume [~user@stgt-5f73a3ad.pool.mediaWays.net] has left #lisp 17:06:01 urandom_ [~user@84.138.113.254] has joined #lisp 17:06:59 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A71FE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:07:20 -!- jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:07:42 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joined #lisp 17:40:17 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 17:40:20 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-178-201-97.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:40:25 algorist_ [~quassel@host5-220-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:40:42 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:40:43 -!- algorist [~quassel@host76-230-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:41:03 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 17:41:58 -!- Davsebamse [~davse@94.127.49.1] has quit [Quit: Davsebamse] 17:41:59 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.156.244] has left #lisp 17:42:29 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:42 oudeis [~oudeis@82.166.248.14] has joined #lisp 17:48:41 Posterdati [~tapioca@host5-220-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:49:15 When I autocomplete a filename in a string in a repl in slime with paredit, it'll annoyingly add an extra `"' ending up with "filename"". Is there a way to stop this from happening? 17:50:56 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:15 carlocci [~nes@93.37.200.190] has joined #lisp 17:53:29 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:54:45 Qworkescence, my practice is to disable paredit in REPL 17:55:24 i find it annoying when using in REPL 17:55:48 algorist [~quassel@host52-175-dynamic.7-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:56:28 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-11-41.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:56 Posterdati_ [~tapioca@host52-175-dynamic.7-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:56:58 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host5-220-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:57:02 -!- algorist_ [~quassel@host5-220-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:57:17 hi 17:57:26 -!- Posterdati_ [~tapioca@host52-175-dynamic.7-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:57:54 pnq [~nick@ACA2241D.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 17:58:01 Posterdati [~tapioca@host52-175-dynamic.7-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:58:11 hi 18:02:26 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2241D.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:04:57 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@82.166.248.14] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:05:36 bsod1 [~osa1@31.141.80.230] has joined #lisp 18:06:30 fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:12 Davsebamse [~davse@gate.ipvision.dk] has joined #lisp 18:09:16 -!- Davsebamse [~davse@gate.ipvision.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:09:22 Davsebamse [~davse@gate.ipvision.dk] has joined #lisp 18:10:28 -!- aleron [~brad@24.sub-75-192-242.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:11:13 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:12:19 aleron [~brad@58.sub-75-243-4.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 18:13:43 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:14:11 c_arenz [~arenz@p5B2CAFE6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:20 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483C5B1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:16:50 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 18:22:38 replore [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:24:45 Hello Lispers! 18:25:12 Yuuhi [benni@p5483C5B1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:15 How come CL doesn't have a LOGICAL-PATHNAMEP? 18:29:45 mon_key: I don't know. You can use typep, though. 18:31:10 Xach: Yeah, what prompted me to ask :) ANSI says that the namestring syntax and component values of a logical-pathname are implementation dependent but i don't see how that would neccesarrily preclude there being a built in type predicate. 18:31:39 mon_key: component values of a logical pathname are implementation dependent? 18:31:45 mon_key: where does it say that? 18:32:23 -!- mk2 [~user@159.92.65.64] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:32:27 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.172.249.6] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:32:28 I'm looking at the texi conversion of dpans3. getting ready to check hyperspec 18:32:37 What section? 18:32:54 (info "(ansicl)logical-pathname (System Class)") 18:33:35 mon_key: "implementation-dependent" and "implementation-independent" are very different things! 18:35:30 Xach: Sorry I misread. Are they different things though. Seriously? 18:36:04 NM i found glossary! 18:36:04 Yes, independent is pretty much the opposite of dependent. 18:36:14 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 18:37:40 So, if is implementation-independent it would seem reasonable that they'dve included a LOGICAL-PATHNAMEP. 18:39:05 I guess it is mentioned here: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss350_w.htm 18:39:23 aintme [~user@28.186.19.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:42:02 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:42:53 Hraban [Hraban@78-22-144-222.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 18:43:01 -!- Hraban is now known as Landr 18:43:48 -!- xan_ [~xan@222.Red-81-38-171.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:44:17 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442875.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:44:55 -!- silenius [~silenus@p4FC227F0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:45:30 -!- Harag [~phil@dsl-242-247-123.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Quit: Eish] 18:49:17 -!- Yuzuchan [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:51:26 Harag [~phil@dsl-242-247-123.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:52:58 HG`` [~HG@p579F7F37.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:30 -!- gozek [~quassel@85.52.166.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:53:38 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC04FBA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:54:30 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 18:58:51 -!- splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:01:00 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-143-77.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:01:01 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.100.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:02:44 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439964.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:03:34 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 19:05:25 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C7E21.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:09 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 19:06:19 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-172-95.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 19:08:51 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-167-21.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:08:54 Soulman [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:09:36 -!- aleron [~brad@58.sub-75-243-4.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:13:48 -!- leo2007 [~leo@114.247.10.65] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 19:13:59 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-058-080.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:03 adu [~ajr@64.134.100.77] has joined #lisp 19:14:21 So, Joey Comeau of "A Soft World" is learning Common Lisp. Interesting. 19:14:28 *A Softer World 19:14:46 The photocomic? 19:15:02 *Xach* can't wait for xkcd-quality lisp humor in asofterworld 19:15:20 http://ryannorth.tumblr.com/post/5896696632/iming-with-joey 19:15:41 Bike: yeah, that one 19:17:34 -!- littlebobby [~bob@unaffiliated/littlebobby] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:18:43 so maybe one possible rationale (assuming there was one) for the absence of LOGICAL-PATHNAMEP is this: (logical-pathnamep (pathname (namestring (make-pathname :host "")))) 19:21:20 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@p5B2CAFE6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:21:21 mon_key: What does that illustrate? 19:21:39 A valid logical-pathname component can not be the empty string. 19:22:05 How does that relate to the absence of LOGICAL-PATHNAME-P? 19:23:10 At least on SBCL (make-pathname :host "") is a valid form. But i've not specified "" as a valid phsical pathname host. 19:25:43 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:26:48 And theres this also: (translate-logical-pathname (truename (make-pathname))) 19:26:48 19:28:00 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:28:28 I don't see the connection. 19:30:11 Is it an error to create a pathname for a non valid physical host? 19:30:19 I don't know. 19:30:35 I get one for this: (make-pathname :host "bubba") 19:32:38 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@211.108.125.70] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:32:40 So, I would presume that the host "" is a valid physical host. If this is so then wouldn't a sane logical-pathname-p need to return T for (logical-pathname-p "") -- [despite the spec that no logical pathname component can be the empty string]? 19:33:37 FWIW (make-pathname :host "bubba") => #P"" on clisp 2.49 19:33:38 -!- redline6561-work [~redline65@66.6.146.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:33:40 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178-223-155-156.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:33:45 -!- OliverUv [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:33:51 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-155-156.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 19:33:53 -!- armence [~armence@unaffiliated/armence] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:33:57 mon_key: "" is a string. 19:35:21 Yes, but (info "(ansicl)Syntax of Logical Pathname Namestrings") describes the syntax for WORD as "WORD--one or more uppercase letters, digits, and hyphens." 19:35:21 19:35:55 I don't see how that is connected. 19:37:19 redline6561-work [~redline65@cei-gla-cpk2.coxinc.com] has joined #lisp 19:37:22 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:38:40 Is there an automated way [in Slime/Emacs] of aligning the arguments of setf (the keys are aligned, I want the values aligned too) in this example? http://paste.lisp.org/display/122418 19:39:33 Qworkescence: Nikodemus is working on this. 19:39:37 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-172-67.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 19:39:37 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-172-67.vodafone.hu] has quit [Changing host] 19:39:37 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 19:40:35 mon_key, Ah, well time to bug nikodemus about all the indentation things I want. me me me! 19:40:52 Qworkescence: or something which is extensible enough for _you_ to modify :) 19:40:56 s/time/time / 19:41:30 Qworkescence: google align-let + elisp 19:42:08 mon_key, Neat, thanks. Any more goodies? 19:42:15 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-102-247.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:27 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:42:31 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:42:35 tcr1 [~tcr@80-218-247-218.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:42:38 Qworkescence: maybe. 19:43:04 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-172-67.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 19:43:04 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-172-67.vodafone.hu] has quit [Changing host] 19:43:04 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 19:43:07 mon_key, Goodies for anything with respect to editing/introspection. 19:43:14 mmm my code already aligns like that? 19:43:21 Or buffer management. >:( 19:43:33 Harag, That is what I want to have changed, not the changes I want made 19:43:43 ah 19:44:15 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 19:44:22 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-117-156.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:44:22 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 19:44:33 ah the values 19:44:44 *Harag* has brain freeze 19:45:59 -!- pjfd2 [~pjfd@pool-70-107-168-139.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 19:46:52 Qworkescence: http://paste.lisp.org/+2MGI/1 19:47:07 antoni [~user@45.pool85-53-39.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 19:48:37 Qworkescence: lots more stuff like that here: https://github.com/mon-key/mon-emacs 19:49:45 -!- antoni [~user@45.pool85-53-39.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:49:46 OliverUv [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has joined #lisp 19:51:48 -!- `fogus [~fogus@pool-72-83-146-103.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: `fogus] 19:54:03 -!- anonchik [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:54:22 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-058-080.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:54:38 anonchik [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has joined #lisp 19:56:29 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 19:56:59 -!- Harag [~phil@dsl-242-247-123.telkomadsl.co.za] has left #lisp 20:03:09 -!- urandom_ [~user@84.138.113.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:03:14 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 20:04:20 bjoh [~bjarte@cC1AE00C3.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #lisp 20:07:24 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-011-225.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:05 -!- redline6561-work [~redline65@cei-gla-cpk2.coxinc.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:14:41 redline6561-work [~redline65@cei-gla-cpk2.coxinc.com] has joined #lisp 20:16:36 -!- homie [~levent.gu@xdsl-78-35-146-172.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:16:46 austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:50 -!- OliverUv [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:22:20 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:24:59 austinh pasted "checkpoint macro" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122424 20:26:01 I think I'm in over my head with this. I'd like to create a macro which takes a variable number of places and creates a function that when called will set all of those places back to the values they had when the function was created. 20:26:30 I'm not sure this is even a good idea. 20:26:55 You'll want to use get-setf-expansion, otherwise multiple evaluation may cause surprising results. 20:27:11 -!- markskilbeck [~chris@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:27:19 pkhuong: I was looking into that, and that's when I started thinking I'm in over my head. 20:29:08 But, thanks, it's helpful to get confirmation that I was heading down the right path. 20:30:59 -!- aintme [~user@28.186.19.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has left #lisp 20:32:42 -!- ec|detached is now known as elliottcable 20:33:14 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@31.141.80.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:33:56 tempire [~tempire@pool-72-91-241-135.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:45 mon_key, Thanks, I'll check it out. :) 20:39:26 mstevens [~mstevens@ceres.etla.org] has joined #lisp 20:39:33 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@ceres.etla.org] has quit [Changing host] 20:39:33 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 20:39:55 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:45:20 -!- HG`` [~HG@p579F7F37.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:49:20 empt [~empt@112.2.215.13] has joined #lisp 20:55:25 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-174-096-202-029.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: statonjr] 20:57:25 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-97-6.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:13 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@2620:0:2820:b03:201:4aff:fef3:f0d4] has quit [Quit: Some days you're the pigeon, some days the statue...] 20:58:37 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-102-247.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:58:45 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 20:59:50 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-11-41.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:59:51 Atomsk [ace4016@adsl-184-32-11-41.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:11 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c711b3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:45 -!- Davsebamse [~davse@gate.ipvision.dk] has quit [Quit: Davsebamse] 21:02:19 oudeis [~oudeis@82.166.248.14] has joined #lisp 21:03:32 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754c50.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:06:31 frito [~user@cpc2-sotn4-0-0-cust13.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:06:50 -!- oconnore_ [~eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:07:29 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:08:13 oconnore [~eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:37 Xach, eli: The wiki page about Erik Naggum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Naggum says that he used lower caps to make the sentences easier to read and faster to type. However, there's no citation to it. 21:11:29 madnificent: What are lower caps? 21:12:52 sellout-: non-caps 21:13:08 well, he didn't use CAPITALS to start his sentences... 21:14:01 sellout-: well, that's probably not what lower caps are, because that is likely a term that someone uses somewhere for a different meaning. However, that's what I wanted to say with it. 21:14:19 Also curious as to why on SBCL these two forms evaluate differently: 21:14:21 (pathname-version #P"SYS:SRC;CODE;TARGET-PATHNAME.LISP") 21:14:24 There is such a thing as small caps, which look like upper case, but the same size as lowercase. 21:14:29 (pathname-version (translate-logical-pathname #P"SYS:SRC;CODE;TARGET-PATHNAME.LISP")) 21:15:21 austinh: yeah, I tried to avoid that, but I just screwed it up further 21:16:23 it's definately easier to type, I don't really know about reading though 21:22:21 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-152-110.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:50 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:23:44 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-97-6.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:24:28 madnificent: I strongly doubt that "faster to type" would be an issue for any self-respecting emacs user... 21:25:08 In any case, that wiki blurb is obviously not the whole picture since he did that for a while, and then switched to back caps around 2000 (see xach's archive). 21:25:53 Oh, and I'm almost sure that when he talked about it he said something about keeping capitals in names and in "I". (But I'm clearly not motivated enough to actually look for it.) 21:26:21 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-167-21.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:26:48 -!- realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-152-110.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:27:13 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-112-17.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:09 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:31:29 urandom_ [~user@p548A4B01.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:44 rvirding [~chatzilla@h139n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:35:10 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:12 eli: odd, very odd 21:36:22 eli: also: I disagree that any emacs user would disagree about that. I use emacs but still find ease of use rather important. However, some emacs users would probably code in functionality for it. 21:41:03 madnificent: Yeah, I meant to refer to emacs hackers, of course. 21:45:40 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C7E21.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:48:24 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has left #lisp 21:49:15 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:49:59 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@82.166.248.14] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:53:16 waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d8711ff.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:12 -!- bjoh [~bjarte@cC1AE00C3.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:54:14 -!- frito [~user@cpc2-sotn4-0-0-cust13.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:55:11 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439964.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:55:22 -!- empt [~empt@112.2.215.13] has left #lisp 21:57:09 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.219.99] has joined #lisp 21:57:36 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-112-17.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:57:37 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 21:59:02 -!- adu [~ajr@64.134.100.77] has quit [Quit: adu] 22:00:34 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439964.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:00:41 bjoh [~bjarte@cC1AE00C3.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #lisp 22:01:31 -!- bjoh [~bjarte@cC1AE00C3.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Client Quit] 22:01:54 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-011-225.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:02:45 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.129.183] has joined #lisp 22:03:40 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.219.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:03:41 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 22:03:44 lanthan [~ze@p54B7CC97.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:41 -!- lanthan [~ze@p54B7CC97.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 22:05:49 -!- Keta [~Katie@hlfxns0148w-142177172125.region5.highspeedunplugged.aliant.net] has left #lisp 22:06:36 lanthan [~ze@p54B7CC97.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:24 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:09:23 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:12:29 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439964.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:15:20 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-172-95.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:16:24 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441148.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:17:58 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178-223-155-156.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:21:10 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:22:13 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:22:20 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:23:21 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:31:02 austinh annotated #122424 "checkpoint macro: v2" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122424#1 22:34:46 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 22:35:24 Good morning everyone! 22:35:57 Good evening beach! 22:41:31 hello 22:41:50 *Phoodus* tactfully avoids time references 22:43:56 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:54:23 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-174-096-202-029.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:55:40 -!- Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:55:53 HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:56:43 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 22:56:47 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.129.183] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:56:58 pnq [~nick@ACA37EC6.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:16 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-100-64.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:06 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:03:40 -!- redline6561-work [~redline65@cei-gla-cpk2.coxinc.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:05:10 austinh annotated #122424 "checkpoint macro: v3" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122424#2 23:07:24 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.60.153] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:11:02 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:12:15 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.203.70] has joined #lisp 23:12:56 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 23:13:26 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-100-64.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:13:28 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 23:14:58 poindontcare [~user@cloudbovina.bovinasancta.com] has joined #lisp 23:15:39 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-78-174.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 23:16:02 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-78-174.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Client Quit] 23:17:04 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h139n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 23:20:44 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:25:41 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:26:15 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-11-41.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:26:57 -!- Atomsk [ace4016@adsl-184-32-11-41.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:27:04 MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@nc-71-55-73-135.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:22 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 23:27:37 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@80-218-247-218.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:27:44 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:27:47 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-11-41.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 23:27:48 Atomsk [~ace4016@adsl-184-32-11-41.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:54 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:31:28 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 23:31:44 atomx [~user@86.35.150.23] has joined #lisp 23:32:53 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:32:56 ramus_ [~ramus@adsl-99-136-196-68.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:43 -!- ramus [~ramus@99.23.134.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:37:28 Oh darn. FILL specifies that an error must be signaled if START is not a non-negative integer or if END is not a non-negative integer or NIL. But START and END might still not be valid bouding index designators (for instance if START > END) in which case the consequences are implicitly undefined, and an error is not required to be signaled. 23:38:15 *beach* again wishes for an annotatable Common Lisp HyperSpec. 23:38:42 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 23:39:48 fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:58 that's not even too bad my pet irritation is (string= prefix string :end2 (length prefix)) not being correct 23:41:44 *beach* checks the entry for string=. 23:43:26 nikodemus: In what way is it not correct? 23:45:51 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:45:56 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:47:04 tty234 [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-nfxrumqnrylomfqj] has joined #lisp 23:47:42 -!- ramus_ [~ramus@adsl-99-136-196-68.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 23:48:47 ramus [~ramus@adsl-99-118-189-134.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:48:52 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-78-174.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 23:49:32 -!- z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:49:39 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-78-174.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Client Quit] 23:52:23 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 23:53:42 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:53:52 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 23:57:58 Wow! FILL also doesn't mention what happens if the ITEM stored is not of the correct type for SEQUENCE. 23:58:04 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]